Playstation Move Games [Archive] - Page 4

Shifty Geezer

13-Oct-2010, 23:02

I think that's him tho (not a dig shifty) - it's like when he was dissing LBP, it came across like he hated the game when he doesn't...Seems to me a lot of people take the last-thing-read as being the sole opinion of whoever wrote it. I was watching Time Team today, the archeology programme. At the beginning they looked at the evidence and formulated an opinion on what the castle was about. Then on day 2 they considered the latest evidence from digs and changed their mind. Day three and they had changed their mind again. Personally I don't have a problem with engaging a flow of ideas, but it sounds as if some people here would rather they spend the programme saying, "we don't know," until the end where they can say, "looking at all the facts we think its this."

I presented one single sample of info, no different to me saying, "I saw a Youtube video of Kinect and the skeleton tracking was plain broken," or, "I tried Wii Tennis and the input bares no relation to what you're really doing with the controller, such that you can win by just waggling the controller." I guess as I never criticise any of them, people are bound to be suspcious of my anti-Move stance. :p

From the viewpoint of a Gadget Show viewer, I can't see the Move demo as being a great advertisement for Move as it seemed a bit Wii. Does anyone here think that if Move gets branded by the masses as nothing more than WiiHD, that wouldn't be damning for the platform, when it can do so much more? And anyone who thinks I've a negative position on Move just hasn't followed my many posts on the new controllers! I dare say many also read the exclamation mark as an angry hate-mark, instead of an eyes-wide-open...:shock:, but that's a tiny thing in what was just a single sample that doesn't merit such wild arm-waving IMO.

Shifty Geezer

13-Oct-2010, 23:05

How can that possibly be seen as a bad thing?I doubt anyone does consider it a bad thing, although having thought that, in titles like Mario Kart there are those who praise its levelling of the play field with assists and those who condemn its robbing the game of any skills. I suppose at the end of the day in depends on how competitive the players feel and whether the better players are happy to be beaten by less-capable players, or if they feel their better skill should result in a win as is the whole point of skill based games. But options is never bad. If in doubt about a game design choice, make it a menu option!

Rotmm

13-Oct-2010, 23:56

If you wouldn't make such outrageous assumptions based on extremely limited information, I wouldn't have to question anyone's thoughts. Just seems like the rapid spreading of misinformation and FUD to me.

Kinda funny to see you on that particular high-horse.

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?p=1477082#post1477082

Well, maybe not funny, as it's kind of pathetic to see to be honest.

I think his reaction is a bit strong to be honest. That's probably what set off the others.

While I agree it may be a bit strong, on further thought it's possibly only a little bit strong. As you haven't seen the program, let me explain what it was about (or this segment of it, anyway). Each of the 5 presenters of the show was to take part in a gaming challenge against a recognised expert in the field that the particular game was representing.

So you had a professional rapper competing in DefJam Rapster on the 360, a TV quiz king on Buzz on the PS3, a professional motorcycle racer on the Ipad version of MotoGP, a professional dancer and finalist of a top british TV show on Kinect Dance Central and the aforementioned champion table tennis player on Sports Champions Table Tennis on Move.

The Rapper was beaten by the Presenter
The TV Quiz King beat the Presenter easliy
The Motorcyclist beat the Presenter easily
The Dancer beat the Presenter very easily
The Table Tennis Champ was beaten by the Presenter very, very easily.

The reason the Quiz guy won is because an ability to store vast numbers of facts translates across genres, be it pub quiz, TV quiz or Buzz. The reason the racer won is because he has knowledge of the track they were virtually racing on, along with an idea of cornering speeds, etc. The reason the dancer won is because of his ability to maintain rhythm while completing a string of complex dance moves. And the reason the rapper lost is because he is used to rapping in his own style, whereas the presenter was happy to copy another.

So why did the TT Tennis champ lose so badly? And more importantly, does it matter?

Bear in mind that the Gadget Show have extensively previewed Move in past shows, as well as Sports Champions, so it's not as if they've gone in blind. Also bear in mind, they had very positive impressions of it. And maybe because of that, and maybe because they also bought into the PR speak about it being just like the real thing, they thought it would make a good challenge.

At no point did the program makers sit down and say to themselves, "Maybe this isn't a good challenge, as playing Table Tennis with Move is about as comprable to actual Table Tennis as wanking to porn is to actually having sex"

But they did go for it, and the more I think about it the more he is kinda right about the actual result being damning for Move, irrespective of what settings or whatever, as the ads on TV in the UK at the moment for Move are all about how it is just like the real thing. And, if memory serves me correctly, there was that exact Move advert on during the break. So yes, the result in the show was kinda damning for those watching who may have been looking at Move as a Xmas present or whatever.

Yes, you and I and Shitfty and most posters on this board (and boards like it) know that Move is like Masturbation compared to the real thing and to dismiss the marketing speak, the PR and the advertisments for the overhyped drivel that adverts usually are. But we are in the minority, us forum geeks. We are not the major audience that Sony are trying to convert into PS3 and/or Move owners. However, many of those with a passing interest in techie stuff like Move are most definately Gadget Show viewers, and the decision of the program makers to showcase Move against a sports professional is definately one that Sony won't want to promote in future.

patsu

14-Oct-2010, 00:31

I don't know why Move must be like masturbation or like the real thing exclusively. It can be both -- depends on difficulty settings, skill levels and play style. Some will take a longer time to warm up to it. Some may never like it.

For marketing to non-gamers and casuals, I think they have a long way to go. The initial buyers will probably be the core gamers and their friends/relatives.

tha_con

14-Oct-2010, 04:36

Kinda funny to see you on that particular high-horse.

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?p=1477082#post1477082

Well, maybe not funny, as it's kind of pathetic to see to be honest.

Up until that point I had only seen videos of Child of Eden (Many of them, in fact) and listen to multiple podcasts (In This Thread, Giant Bomb, Weekend Confirmed, TRS, and a few others). Out of all the media that I followed during that time, I hadn't heard anyone mention being able to use a controller. Obviously now I know that not to be the case.

That still doesn't change the fact that many people expressed their experience as not only different, but also more difficult, as well as expressed calibration issues that occasionally took multiple tries to correct. I fail to see what is pathetic about an assumption based on a lot of information that I had at that point, vs saying "this doesn't look good for Move".

There are multiple reasons why each and every example you gave is flawed and not "solid", but the most important one is because none of them has a constant. Again, what you saw on that show is nothing more than a problem with that particular person, not the software or hardware.

goonergaz

14-Oct-2010, 08:49

That's a good point, and still people seem to ignore the fact that TT is surely one of the few sports where it's next to impossible to re-create in a game - maybe if it were in 3D he might had donw better, but none of the other examples could be affected by split-second timing - also with the dance game you have to wonder, if there's no way to 'level the playing field' like in TT then it will be boring as hell and alienate the targeted audience IMHO.

Either way, the best way to demonstrate Move is with games that include Augmented reality...oh, and I'd also add that you've basically confirmed that the presenters had played around with Move already (and enjoyed it) so had a big advantage.

Shifty Geezer

14-Oct-2010, 10:18

While I agree it may be a bit strong, on further thought it's possibly only a little bit strong. Perish the thought! Surely any opinion has to be the absolutely extreme interpretable! ;)

The Rapper was beaten by the Presenter
The TV Quiz King beat the Presenter easliy
The Motorcyclist beat the Presenter easily
The Dancer beat the Presenter very easily
The Table Tennis Champ was beaten by the Presenter very, very easily.
To be fair, I wouldn't have classed the racing driver as having much of an advantage as it was an iPad game. It bore little relation to his real-life experience, so he had less advantage, although as you say he did have knowledge. If instead the racing challenge was in a GT5 demo pod, it wouldn't be wrong to expect a professional racing driver to have a significant advantage over someone who wasn't (unless they are a GT expert!). And if there was a flying race held in a flight simulator you'd think the real life pilot would have the advantage, whereas if it's a bought of Ace Combat the pilot's experience wouldn't count for much.

Hence the closer the video-game is to reality, the more advantageous real-life experience will be. I don't see that as a reckless assumption. Quite the contrary, to think real-life experience counts for absolutely nothing when transferring a real-life game to a video display seems the unrealistic assumption to me. If the dancing challenge didn't favour the guy with experience and talent in dancing, you'd have to question how authentic the dancing game is. And if you could massively beat Tom Jones singing a Tom Jones song in Singstar, you'd have to question the accuracy of Singstar and whether it really does differentiate good singing from bad.

I don't know why Move must be like masturbation or like the real thing exclusively. It can be both -- depends on difficulty settings, skill levels and play style.Sure, but you have to communicate that effectively. If potential customers only see purposely unbalanced gameplay, you communicate only one side of the story. Like games demo'd in god mode, and people say, "that looked really dull." If they appreciate it was in god mode, that's not a problem, but if they just go by what they see, it's negative PR.

patsu

14-Oct-2010, 10:27

Like games demo'd in god mode, and people say, "that looked really dull." If they appreciate it was in god mode, that's not a problem, but if they just go by what they see, it's negative PR.

See, they are complaining about the games, not the controller. It's like saying DS3 is dull or unrealistic. Doesn't make sense.

I didn't watch the program so I can't comment. Defeating the expert player may not be a bad thing from the novice's perspective.

Billy Idol

14-Oct-2010, 11:05

You guys know that these are all games...right?
It is nothing more, nothing less...especially, games don't have anything to do with real life...especially, the so called "sim" games have nothing to do with real life - I am wondering at the moment what the point of the ongoing discussion is?!
If someone beats another person in a game - he is a better gamer, nothing more, nothing less!

goonergaz

14-Oct-2010, 11:47

not bad figures (sorry - didn't know where to put this!)

"Following a solid initial launch, VGChartz can reveal that as of October 9th over 470,000 units of Move hardware have now been sold in the Americas and EMEAA. Another statistic of interest is that over 600,000 individual Move controllers have now been sold in total (bundles and stand-alone), 130,000 of which are serving as 2nd, 3rd or 4th controllers for the 470,000 unique Move customers. Around 42% of Move sales are coming from the Americas with the remainder from EMEAA.

Sports Champions (bundled with the Move pack in America and with some hardware packs in Europe) has now sold over 380,000 copies, still selling at over an 80% attach rate and the key driver for initial Move hardware sales.

Stay tuned to VGChartz for the latest PlayStation Move sales news."

Prophecy2k

14-Oct-2010, 13:30

When they say Move hardware are they speaking of Move+PSEye+PS3 sales, or any bundle or offering which involves the PS Move controller?

I know it's VGChartz and they have a certain reputation, but if true these are some seriously impressive numbers... :-)

Crossbar

14-Oct-2010, 13:44

upnorthsox

14-Oct-2010, 14:11

Kinda funny to see you on that particular high-horse.

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?p=1477082#post1477082

Well, maybe not funny, as it's kind of pathetic to see to be honest.
....
snip......

So to summarize, because a champ pre-ejaculated while masturbating in front of a TV audience, it should be construed as an failure of the wand in his hand and not with the waggler of said wand.

This is obviously a display that Sony marketing would like to be under exposed to the wider market.

On a personal note, I wonder if an inability to maintain a one to one mapping with the target of my wand would be acceptable with the wife? She'd probably tell me to go waggle myself.........oh well.

tha_con

14-Oct-2010, 14:41

Hence the closer the video-game is to reality, the more advantageous real-life experience will be. I don't see that as a reckless assumption. Quite the contrary, to think real-life experience counts for absolutely nothing when transferring a real-life game to a video display seems the unrealistic assumption to me.

You're wrong! You're just taking one thing at face value and eliminating a TON of variables. If a person has never played a game, or doesn't quite understand HOW a product works, then how can you expect his real life experience to translate to a video game? No one said their experience counts for nothing, rather, we should all be intelligent enough, I would hope, to understand that not everyone can easily grasp the concept of not only interaction with psuedo-3D objects in a video game, but also understand that the game will represent their movements, right down to position and depth (i.e. real 3D movement). If that's not effectively communicated to the person playing, then they (potentially) have no idea how the product works, and as a result, all of the skill in the world wouldn't help them play it.

goonergaz

14-Oct-2010, 15:34

"Another statistic of interest is that over 600,000 individual Move controllers have now been sold in total (bundles and stand-alone), 130,000 of which are serving as 2nd, 3rd or 4th controllers for the 470,000 unique Move customers."

So what about all the people like me that already had a PSEye?
What a stupid article.

yes, I realise the article is not brilliant, however it's nice to get some sort of number and idea on how well/badly it's doing. I son't know how they came to the figure that 130K are 'extra' controllers unless they know how many people purchased more than one? Having said that I got 4 controllers from 4 different sources so it's pretty much complete guess-work, but 600K is still a fairly good total from 4 weeks on sale...the shoot might help stimulate sales a bit then they have the singstar ones early November

Billy Idol

14-Oct-2010, 17:29

iWaggle SOCOM 4 vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=672SKCEdwvU&feature=player_embedded

patsu

14-Oct-2010, 18:06

Can VGChartz numbers be trusted ?

upnorthsox

14-Oct-2010, 18:19

Can VGChartz numbers be trusted ?

They're all we got now, so they're it.

Shifty Geezer

14-Oct-2010, 21:43

...then they (potentially) have no idea how the product works.If the product is very close to the real-life experience, like a flight simulator, or a driving game in a pneumatic pod, then it'll be obvious how the product works to someone with relevant real-life experience. If the game doesn't match their real-life experience, then it isn't a very accurate representation of that experience.
Looking at it another way...
then how can you expect his real life experience to translate to a video game?
There are different degrees of video-game realism and you can't just call every video game a 'video game' and thus class it as requiring a different set of skills to it's real-life counterpart, as some games get quite close. I wouldn't expect Michael Schumacher to be great at OutRun or Micro Machines which are clearly unrealistic video games with little relation to driving skills, but I would expect him to manage very well in a GT5 demo pod as that's more a simulation.

This new, elightened age of motion gaming is supposed to be moving away from 'video games' that are inaccesible to people who haven't learnt the skills, and changing controls so it's obvious and follows real-life expectations. Certainly for those courting real-game recreations, if not for those just using novel interfaces. It's all about breaking down such barriers. Hear the descriptions of Sorcery and how the devs say to a player, "shake the potion and now drink it," and the player immediately gets it as it matches their real life actions if they really had a potion in their hand . If a person stumbles to achieve in a motion game what would be fairly trivial for them in real life, then the motion aspect (hardware or software) can't be working very well, no?

patsu

14-Oct-2010, 21:48

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-10-14/sony-sees-strong-europe-christmas-sales-says-ps3-may-beat-its-targets.html

Move has had “very significant sales in the first month since launch, somewhere in the region of 1.5 million units for the new controller across just Europe,” House said. “The initial sales response has been so far in excess of our initial plan that we’ll probably be looking at accelerating production.”

tha_con

14-Oct-2010, 22:35

If the product is very close to the real-life experience, like a flight simulator, or a driving game in a pneumatic pod, then it'll be obvious how the product works to someone with relevant real-life experience. If the game doesn't match their real-life experience, then it isn't a very accurate representation of that experience.
Looking at it another way...

There are different degrees of video-game realism and you can't just call every video game a 'video game' and thus class it as requiring a different set of skills to it's real-life counterpart, as some games get quite close. I wouldn't expect Michael Schumacher to be great at OutRun or Micro Machines which are clearly unrealistic video games with little relation to driving skills, but I would expect him to manage very well in a GT5 demo pod as that's more a simulation.

This new, elightened age of motion gaming is supposed to be moving away from 'video games' that are inaccesible to people who haven't learnt the skills, and changing controls so it's obvious and follows real-life expectations. Certainly for those courting real-game recreations, if not for those just using novel interfaces. It's all about breaking down such barriers. Hear the descriptions of Sorcery and how the devs say to a player, "shake the potion and now drink it," and the player immediately gets it as it matches their real life actions if they really had a potion in their hand . If a person stumbles to achieve in a motion game what would be fairly trivial for them in real life, then the motion aspect (hardware or software) can't be working very well, no?

I'm done dude. You clearly are avoiding my point in any manner possible.

Just because someone can play TT, doesn't mean that they can hop in and deal with something as abstract as "augmented reality". For him it may simply be a matter of not being able to judge when the ball is within range for him to hit, or that he actually has to move around to hit the ball (i.e. reach in and out, etc). This has nothing to do with "real life". The idea of interacting with something on a two dimensional plane (your TV) displaying a 3-Dimensional rendered world is abstract in and of itself to people who are unfamiliar with the concept. I've seen people who have trouble with freaking LIGHT GUN games, let alone something like table tennis...

Simply writing it off as "oh everyone should be able to do it because that's the purpose" is silly. Clearly Sony has taken this in to multiple directions, with some games reflecting accessibility, and some games being extremely deep, requiring more familiarity. You're simply writing off everything else in favor of your own view point that somehow, this guy who may have never played a video game in his life, should be able to just jump in and destroy this guy. That's so wild and baseless I can't even begin to take it seriously.

That said, I haven't seen the video, and don't think I'm able to, but if anyone has the video I'd love to watch it. I tried to find it on their site, but it's so terribly organized I can't seem to locate it.

Arwin

14-Oct-2010, 22:47

I wouldn't expect Michael Schumacher to be great at OutRun or Micro Machines which are clearly unrealistic video games with little relation to driving skills, but I would expect him to manage very well in a GT5 demo pod as that's more a simulation.

Maybe not Micro Machines, as a good line there is still a good line. ;)

Anyway, if GT5 was the first time he sat behind a 'simulation', it would take even Schumacher an hour to become comfortable enough and learn to compensate for the lack of depth and g-force by listening to other cues (in this case in the force feedback, in the audio, and in the 2D environment).

1.5 million in Europe - great numbers! Hopefully the US isn't far behind, Move will become a de facto standard for at least 50% of games out there and increased production is warranted (should be at least to meet the Holiday demands). I think the target for Move should be at least 50% of current PS3 owners out there. Yeah, that's high, but it's not unrealistic - the DualShock managed similar numbers.

NeoTechni

14-Oct-2010, 23:03

I agree with Shifty. The devs of the Motus darwin said playing Wii made real golfers play worse at the sport.

Motion gaming to me has always been like using 3D hand writing recognition as a controller. And we cant even get that right in 2D

Prophecy2k

15-Oct-2010, 00:00

Just because someone can play TT, doesn't mean that they can hop in and deal with something as abstract as "augmented reality". For him it may simply be a matter of not being able to judge when the ball is within range for him to hit, or that he actually has to move around to hit the ball (i.e. reach in and out, etc). This has nothing to do with "real life". The idea of interacting with something on a two dimensional plane (your TV) displaying a 3-Dimensional rendered world is abstract in and of itself to people who are unfamiliar with the concept. I've seen people who have trouble with freaking LIGHT GUN games, let alone something like table tennis...

Anyone that has ever looked in a mirror and been able to cognitively associate the movements of the reflected figure they see upon it with their own physical movements in real life is already VERY MUCH familiar with the concept...

I.e. people all over the world of all ages do it every single day... :???:

Heck even orang-utangs don't have a problem with that... I really don't see many people in general society that would have a problem with waving a wand around and imagining they are playing TT...

tha_con

15-Oct-2010, 00:11

Anyone that has ever looked in a mirror and been able to cognitively associate the movements of the reflected figure they see upon it with their own physical movements in real life is already VERY MUCH familiar with the concept...

I.e. people all over the world of all ages do it every single day... :???:

Heck even orang-utangs don't have a problem with that... I really don't see many people in general society that would have a problem with waving a wand around and imagining they are playing TT...

:roll:

The two are not really related. You don't interact with a mirror, you use it as a point of reference. If you are shaving, you use the mirror to judge where the razor goes, but you use other senses (like touch) so you can gauge when it hits your skin, and how much pressure to apply. There is no depth perception involved when you use a mirror. There is "depth" perception involved when you're playing TT on Move, and for some, it is an abstract concept.

Apples to oranges.

patsu

15-Oct-2010, 03:02

http://www.siliconera.com/2010/10/14/playstation-move-makes-top-ten-accessory-list-for-september/

Today, NPD reported that, while both hardware and software dropped for the month of September as compared to the same period a year ago, accessory sales were up by 13%.

The #1 selling accessory for September was, once again, the Xbox Live 1600 point card, followed by the $20 PlayStation Network card. Additionally, the PlayStation Move, which released on September 17th, was also among the top-ten accessories for September in the form of three separate SKUs, including the Move + Sports Champions bundle.

RenegadeRocks

15-Oct-2010, 05:52

iWaggle SOCOM 4 vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=672SKCEdwvU&feature=player_embedded

Brilliant ! This is why I want to buy Move ! Whatever minor bugs exist can get ironed out if Zipper watches this video. Hope GG watches Zippers implementation and removes the snap-to -enemy ironsights too. I think they should just copy the SOCOM implementation as it is. The best I have seen till now.

One question to Patsu: why do you say it takes a LOT of getting used to in MAG? I mean haven't shooters been done with the Wiimote so many times now? How is Move different wrt shooters? I think shooters don't use the Z axis sensing of the Move anyway, so shouldn't it be just like the Wii shooters/lightguns just with more precision?

tha_con

15-Oct-2010, 05:56

Brilliant ! This is why I want to buy Move ! Whatever minor bugs exist can get ironed out if Zipper watches this video. Hope GG watches Zippers implementation and removes the snap-to -enemy ironsights too. I think they should just copy the SOCOM implementation as it is. The best I have seen till now.

One question to Patsu: why do you say it takes a LOT of getting used to in MAG? I mean haven't shooters been done with the Wiimote so many times now? How is Move different wrt shooters? I think shooters don't use the Z axis sensing of the Move anyway, so shouldn't it be just like the Wii shooters/lightguns just with more precision?

It takes just as much to get used to shooters on the Wii. The best way to describe it is passive and active. When you use a mouse / analog stick, the control is passive, so when you get off the stick / mouse, the reticle remains stationary. With Wii / Move, it is always active, so you are always aware (and paying attention) to where your cursor is, which means you have to control your arm, since the reticle is never "still".

It takes some adjustment, for sure.

patsu

15-Oct-2010, 06:33

Yap, because the pointer is free floating and takes effort to maintain position.

The other thing is I need to get used to the camera. I always invert my Y-axis. With a pointer UI, it's closer to non-inverted.

The last thing is different button layout and sizes. When I panic, I often forget where the buttons are, and what the buttons are mapped to. e.g., In MAG, you knife someone by pressing R3. With Move, you have to swipe the controller. It's easy to forget.

Shifty Geezer

15-Oct-2010, 10:21

I'm done dude. You clearly are avoiding my point in any manner possible. Okay, let's just pretend I haven't already said (http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1481792&postcount=735), "I'd hope he had some time to familiarise himself with the game and didn't go in completely cold, which would be awkward, but that's quite possible, and could well explain it. Basically he hadn't acclimatised to the non-native positioning or relating his motions to the screen," and I'm incapable of understanding that...

But I never said that he should be perfect, and in fact this whole argument wasn't ever really about how well he should have done as much as it is about whether it's fair to expect certain things. You have talked as if such expectations are completlely illogical, rather than logical but flawed. That gets my goat, yet having explained the thinking process as to why it's is fair to expect a relationship between real-life experience and game performance based on game simulation quality, especially for the less thoughtful populace at large, you still don't get it, perhaps because you don't appear to actually read the full number of my posts on this given that you missed the above recognition by me early on that there are game limits.

Just because someone can play TT, doesn't mean that they can hop in and deal with something as abstract as "augmented reality".I never said it would, absolutely. Only that it gives an advantage. I notice you ignore all my other examples like the GT5 pod. The closer you get to reality, the easier it is to play the game based on real life experience. Yes or no?

If yes, then we can evaluate how close a game is to reality by how well a real-life expert manages to do with the game. If it's a perfect match, like a flight sim, they'll be perfect. If it's a close match, like GT5, they may need a little time to adjust to no depth perception but they'll do well. If it's completely abstract like Wii Tennis, real life experience counts for nought.

Simply writing it off as "oh everyone should be able to do it because that's the purpose" is silly. Clearly Sony has taken this in to multiple directions, with some games reflecting accessibility, and some games being extremely deep, requiring more familiarity. You're simply writing off everything else in favor of your own view point that somehow, this guy who may have never played a video game in his life, should be able to just jump in and destroy this guy. That's so wild and baseless I can't even begin to take it seriously. Like always, it's not 'wild and baseless.' It's just you can't follow the argument. I'm glad this discussion is done because it was silly!

Shifty Geezer

15-Oct-2010, 10:23

The two are not really related. You don't interact with a mirror, you use it as a point of reference. If you are shaving, you use the mirror to judge where the razor goes, but you use other senses (like touch) so you can gauge when it hits your skin, and how much pressure to apply. There is no depth perception involved when you use a mirror. There is "depth" perception involved when you're playing TT on Move, and for some, it is an abstract concept.Mirrors are also 3D which helps. And proper raytraced 3D; not flickering or dull or requiring a fixed head position! :p

goonergaz

15-Oct-2010, 10:39

Mirrors are also 3D which helps. And proper raytraced 3D; not flickering or dull or requiring a fixed head position! :p

yeah, I was thinking the same...it's even 'real life' vs gfx so the comparision is (frankly) rediculous

Nesh

15-Oct-2010, 10:59

:roll:

The two are not really related. You don't interact with a mirror, you use it as a point of reference. If you are shaving, you use the mirror to judge where the razor goes, but you use other senses (like touch) so you can gauge when it hits your skin, and how much pressure to apply. There is no depth perception involved when you use a mirror. There is "depth" perception involved when you're playing TT on Move, and for some, it is an abstract concept.

Apples to oranges.

Just like in real life. You interact with what's reflected in the mirror not with the mirror ;)

They may not be 100% identical "experiences" but there is an approximation

Prophecy2k

15-Oct-2010, 13:39

Just like in real life. You interact with what's reflected in the mirror not with the mirror ;)

They may not be 100% identical "experiences" but there is an approximation

Tha_con even mentioned "augmented reality", which was why i thought to chime in with my mirror analogy. I'd even say that in the case of AR it IS almost 99.999% exactly the same as AR ;-)

... only better :twisted: (oh how i spent my childhood years dreaming about the furries dawdling before my eyes as they do now when i play start the party ;-))

patsu

15-Oct-2010, 16:51

The use case and feature differences between mirror and computing will blurrr once iPad has a high res camera. :-P

Brilliant ! This is why I want to buy Move ! Whatever minor bugs exist can get ironed out if Zipper watches this video. Hope GG watches Zippers implementation and removes the snap-to -enemy ironsights too. I think they should just copy the SOCOM implementation as it is. The best I have seen till now.

Why is KZ3 "so bad" compared to MAG or Socom 4 pointer control scheme ?

patsu

16-Oct-2010, 02:15

http://dualshockers.com/2010/10/14/virtua-tennis-4-will-make-you-want-to-buy-move-and-a-3dtv/

1:1 control that is experienced with the move in the tech demo is probably the best I’ve seen for the peripheral yet. We talked to Fabian Doehla about the title and about what we played. Unfortunately, because of it’s 3D nature we weren’t allowed to record footage of the screen. Just take our word for it when we say that it looks amazing! Take a look at the whole interview below.

[video interview]

Shifty Geezer

16-Oct-2010, 09:34

One of the kids I work with has a new 3D TV and PS3 with Move in their house (she picked up the Move controllers and asked her mum what they were!). I'm gonna see if I can wrangle some hands-on time!

16-Oct-2010, 14:31

http://dualshockers.com/2010/10/14/virtua-tennis-4-will-make-you-want-to-buy-move-and-a-3dtv/

I need to fix my vision before this game gets released. I really like the camera in VT4. If they can combined Nav controller with near 1:1 gaming, it'll be awsome. I was gonna get the Pana 65S2 next month, but if I could fix my vision, maybe I'll get the Pana 65VT instead.

patsu

16-Oct-2010, 17:08

Dom dom dom DUH !!!

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4127/5070851219_692e48d2aa_b.jpg

EDIT: Someone do an Indiana Jones game or a Sol Bianca game please !

rabidrabbit

16-Oct-2010, 17:30

Yess!!! Hope they make it good!
A lightsaber is well suited to Move, as it slices through most things (not other lightsabers though). This could well be the killer app for Move.

patsu

16-Oct-2010, 17:47

Yes, for a Jedi game like this... I hope they do 3D audio effects also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D_audio_effect

EDIT: Could be a fake though.

Shifty Geezer

16-Oct-2010, 18:07

Dom dom dom DUH !!!Don't you mean either Dom dom dom dur-dur dom, dur-dur dom, or Ba ba ba baaaaa baaaaaa da da da daaaaaa daa. ;)

patsu

16-Oct-2010, 18:18

Don't you mean either Dom dom dom dur-dur dom, dur-dur dom, or Ba ba ba baaaaa baaaaaa da da da daaaaaa daa. ;)

I get it ! This would be a very efficient audio encoding/decoding algorithm. :lol:

zed

16-Oct-2010, 21:12

yes patsu, thats the opening of beethoven's fifth symphony

patsu

17-Oct-2010, 05:00

What about Shifty's music ?

patsu

17-Oct-2010, 05:42

iWaggle surveys all the Move accessories on the market (Part 1 of 4):
http://www.iwaggle3d.com/2010/10/playstation-move-third-party_17.html

Three months ago I published an article about the first 3rd party accessories being developed for the yet to be released PlayStation Move. Since then, the catalog has grown exponentially, to the point that it can easily take a couple of days of Google searching to build a comprehensive knowledge of all that is currently available out there. No sane person would do that, right? Well...

I was insane enough to go on such a mission myself actually, migrating between online stores all over the world wide web in order to collect all the data I could find about the PlayStation Move accessories on the market.

Upon returning from such a journey, so much is the information I gathered a single post would implode if I'd try to fit all into it, so I'll split this into 4 chapters, each one focusing on a specific category.

...

RenegadeRocks

17-Oct-2010, 06:19

Dom dom dom DUH !!!

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4127/5070851219_692e48d2aa_b.jpg

EDIT: Someone do an Indiana Jones game or a Sol Bianca game please !

Must be just for SW:Force Unleashed 2. I think it will be just gesture based. Still, might tilt the scale towards sony hardware if Sony is actually able to market the difference.

RenegadeRocks

17-Oct-2010, 06:27

Why is KZ3 "so bad" compared to MAG or Socom 4 pointer control scheme ?

I haven't really played any of these games but from the videos seen , I think the Socom implementation seems most effortless to play and smooth till now. Also, "snap-to-enemy" iron sights in KZ3 pretty much kills any use of the precision Move offers. I have a habit of Using iron sights in 90% of encounters in KZ2 to aim precisely, improve the accuracy of the weapon and control the spread of bullets, so with me , my having a Move controller in my right hand will be pretty much negated by the game as I will be pressing L2 as soon as an enemy springs to view and the iron sights will automatically snap to it. So much for having Mouse like precision :roll: !

patsu

17-Oct-2010, 09:33

Must be just for SW:Force Unleashed 2. I think it will be just gesture based. Still, might tilt the scale towards sony hardware if Sony is actually able to market the difference.

May be a fake too. ^_^

onQ

17-Oct-2010, 10:46

May be a fake too. ^_^

it is!

http://www.cheaptoysonsales.com/images/Star-Wars-Fx-Lightsaber-with-Removable-Blade-Obi-Wan.jpg

Nesh

17-Oct-2010, 12:47

I was playing the Tumble demo the other night and I have noticed that the camera constantly lost the accurate position of the controller.

I had to center the controller all the time. For example although I was centering the virtual and actual controller exactly in the middle of the screen, after a few motions if I placed the actual controller at the center of the screen, the virtual was no longer centered.

I am not sure if there is something wrong with my motion controller.

Also another thing I have noticed is that in some very few occasions after I finish from one move demo and enter another, the controller can no longer be calibrated or tracked correctly so I either have to restart the game or restart my PS3.

patsu

17-Oct-2010, 16:56

Hmm... may be demo bugs ? The only demo I tried was Tumble. Didn't play it long enough to see any issues.

The real games work fine for me so far. The only Move game freezes I saw was from MAG 2.0. MAG 2.01 seems to have fixed it.

patsu

17-Oct-2010, 17:10

What about Shifty's music ?

EDIT: No one guessed it ? :-(

NeoTechni

17-Oct-2010, 18:49

Arwin

17-Oct-2010, 20:35

What about Shifty's music ?

Most people aren't guessing ... they read it as clearly as if it read S T A R W A R S in yellow letters scrolling into a starry horizon.

patsu

17-Oct-2010, 20:53

Dang, it took me 3 reads before I remember the songs !

NeoTechni

17-Oct-2010, 22:47

I get it ! This would be a very efficient audio encoding/decoding algorithm. :lol:

I could make a program parse those and output on a PC speaker (the beeping one, not the speakers you use for music)

Nesh

18-Oct-2010, 00:05

i didnt have that problem

could be lighting, pseye cable, you getting out of frame, not using the wide angle lens, defective camera

but i doubt its move

Thats weird. It now works rather accurately with Tumble. Even if I try swinging the controller it is positioned correctly.

For some peculiar reason the way it performs on my console isnt 100% consistent. Perhaps it could be the florescent light? Or some kind of unexpected bug?

I am not sure.

Most of the time though it performs as it should

patsu

18-Oct-2010, 22:19

phat

19-Oct-2010, 03:02

tha_con

19-Oct-2010, 03:06

I'm thoroughly disappointed in Move. It isn't even close to 1-to-1 positioning since the camera can't actually tell how close or far away the controller is and the system has to infer a lot of motion from the accelerometers, but this introduces all sorts of integration errors and, hence, drift. For example, at any menu where you have to use the Move controller to point, just shake the controller for a bit and your pointer will drift way off screen.

Actually it can tell where the controller is (near or far). The size of the sphere can be interpreted by the camera (rather, the software) and it can track accordingly.

As for pointing, it relies heavily on the gyro's and magnetometers, and not all of the software implementation is perfect at this point. However, games like MAG clearly illustrate that it is possible to use these tools without any drifting.

I have to ask, what game are you playing?

patsu

19-Oct-2010, 07:06

I'm thoroughly disappointed in Move. It isn't even close to 1-to-1 positioning since the camera can't actually tell how close or far away the controller is and the system has to infer a lot of motion from the accelerometers, but this introduces all sorts of integration errors and, hence, drift. For example, at any menu where you have to use the Move controller to point, just shake the controller for a bit and your pointer will drift way off screen.

Apparently, it depends on the game. Only pointer games exhibit drift behaviour but MAG, RE5 and Start the Party are not affected.

You missed iWaggle's excellent look at drift:

eUXClcR9lFs

EDIT: The camera can indeed locate the controller within a few centimeters (z-wise), or millimeters (x and y).

eastmen

19-Oct-2010, 07:10

May be a fake too. ^_^

most likely star wars kinnect

patsu

19-Oct-2010, 07:29

Arwin

19-Oct-2010, 07:36

Nesh

19-Oct-2010, 13:44

Apparently, it depends on the game. Only pointer games exhibit drift behaviour but MAG, RE5 and Start the Party are not affected.

You missed iWaggle's excellent look at drift:

eUXClcR9lFs

EDIT: The camera can indeed locate the controller within a few centimeters (z-wise), or millimeters (x and y).
I find it weird that in the video the cursor slowly drifts away as if someone is moving the camera even though the controller is completely stable

Prophecy2k

19-Oct-2010, 13:46

I think for Move titles, it may be good to have instant gratification. I don't mind a series of fast paced games/tests. i.e., no long grandmother story coz it tends to complicate the controls, and gets repetitive. Just give us one interesting fight after another, and more and more power ups (like Street Fighter, Sports Champions Gladiator but even more depth).

For long games, experiment with cross genra gameplay (e.g., *Simple* RTS/tower defense + melee). RUSE is intense but too overwhelming. ^_^

I like the way you think Mr Patsu (you are a guy right? - forgive me i haven't paid too much attention) :wink:

I was thinking about the old PC game "Battlezone II" and how much i friggin loved that game when i was in high school. I remember playing it and thinking that this kind of genre blending between RTS & FPS would be the natural progressive end point of all RTS games.

Now MOVE is out i cannot even help but swoon over the thought of a sequel designed around PS Move controls... Or even a different IP but with the same concept of being able to build buildings and train troops, while being able to run around in FPS mode and even get inside the vehicles that you spent resource making.....

SONY PLEASE MAKE GAMES LIKE THIS!!!

*composes himself*

My apologies folks.... won't happen again... ;-)

Shifty Geezer

19-Oct-2010, 14:00

Apparently, it depends on the game. Only pointer games exhibit drift behaviour but MAG, RE5 and Start the Party are not affected.

You missed iWaggle's excellent look at drift:I hadnt seen that. And it's rubbish and quite worrying how errorneous Move becomes! When the Move is stationary there should be no change, suggesting noise at the MEMS level. The drift could be accumulated errors, I'd guess a fault with the libs that everyone's using. That could maybe be addressed by Sony, but if the actual data is noisy from the Moves themselves, those errors will stack up. This video suggests Move's 1:1 abilities have actually been overstated, and it can't currently work as a proper pointer. You'd need frequent calibration to suppress all that drift.

tha_con

19-Oct-2010, 15:44

I hadnt seen that. And it's rubbish and quite worrying how errorneous Move becomes! When the Move is stationary there should be no change, suggesting noise at the MEMS level. The drift could be accumulated errors, I'd guess a fault with the libs that everyone's using. That could maybe be addressed by Sony, but if the actual data is noisy from the Moves themselves, those errors will stack up. This video suggests Move's 1:1 abilities have actually been overstated, and it can't currently work as a proper pointer. You'd need frequent calibration to suppress all that drift.

It's software implementation.

Given that Zipper is a 1st Party studio, their work and libraries with the pointer will be translated to the Development Kit, which means at this point all games releasing will almost certainly have zero drift. The games that do exhibit drift are early titles.

There's no need to worry.

Arwin

19-Oct-2010, 16:12

The Shoot and Time Crisis both had demoes, and the full game is out now. Hopefully TTP / iWaggle can show this has changed and was indeed the result of some early software driver implementations, if he hasn't already tweeted about it. Again also note that some pointers only use the gyro, and others use the full 3D positioning.

tha_con

19-Oct-2010, 16:24

Another important part of calibration is consistency. I've noticed people at my house will occasionally calibrate like it's a light gun game, and then play using only their wrist. That said, Zipper has found a way to make even this strange calibration work without any drift, so I don't feel it'll be a problem at all for any future titles, unless they insist on using their own implementation from scratch

That said, it's entirely possible that a few more games down the line (to include Time Crisis and The Shoot) may not have the best pointing in the world (rather, without drift) as they were rather late in development when Zipper got their pointing 'perfected'. You never know though!

patsu

19-Oct-2010, 16:39

If it only happens in some titles, and these titles use the same tracking approach, then it should be a software thing. May be their smoothing algorithms over-compensate.

EDIT:
I like the way you think Mr Patsu (you are a guy right? - forgive me i haven't paid too much attention) :wink:

Ha ha, unfortunately, most of the time, I don't think when I post. Don't follow grammar and spellings, just keywords. That way it captures my first thought better.
Guy yes, but in PS Home -- if I ever go back :-P -- you may see my female avatar.

I was thinking about the old PC game "Battlezone II" and how much i friggin loved that game when i was in high school. I remember playing it and thinking that this kind of genre blending between RTS & FPS would be the natural progressive end point of all RTS games.

Now MOVE is out i cannot even help but swoon over the thought of a sequel designed around PS Move controls... Or even a different IP but with the same concept of being able to build buildings and train troops, while being able to run around in FPS mode and even get inside the vehicles that you spent resource making.....

They seem to be busy with something, I don't know what.

Shifty Geezer

20-Oct-2010, 10:14

It's software implementation.

There's no need to worry.I've just looked up some MEMS research on noise, and it hadn't occured to me (although it's obvious now I stop and think about it) that there is inherent noise in the readings. Thus the software fix is going to have to be filtering, which hasn't found it's way into the current crop of titles. I'm a bit surprised by that, and the Move engineers didn't try a stationary mount test like iWaggle!

patsu

20-Oct-2010, 18:30

Move will interfere with Tourne's background recording (probably because they use the same reserved SPU, and Tourne supports AVC recording):
http://www.andriasang.com/e/blog/2010/10/21/ps_move_torne_issue/

According to Sony, if Torne begins recording while you're playing games with Move, the PlayStation Eye peripheral that picks up Moves motions may become unstable. The result is that the controller could lose calibration and the current game could suffer slowdown issues.

Sony's notice said that Torne users should be aware of this issue when they set the device's simultaneous record option to on. It did not say if a fix is on the way.

PlayStation Move hits here tomorrow along with games like Big 3 Gun Shooting, Kung Fu Riders and Me & My Pet.

EDIT:
Tourne background recording also cannot run in Blu-ray mode.

Shifty Geezer

20-Oct-2010, 20:18

That's kinda weird. Are they doing any form of transcoding on the video feeds?

patsu

20-Oct-2010, 20:39

Tourne 2.0 supports AVC compression so that the output file is smaller.

Shifty Geezer

21-Oct-2010, 10:43

Okay. If that's optional and you can just dump the video stream to HDD, there shouldn't be an impact.

patsu

22-Oct-2010, 18:49

Playstation Move Heroes dev walkthrough:
http://blog.us.playstation.com/2010/10/21/whats-in-a-name-playstation-move-heroes-developer-walkthrough/
(video inside)

EDIT: Not so interesting for me… :-(

patsu

22-Oct-2010, 19:07

PlayStation Move Echochrome Pushed Back: (Japan)
http://www.andriasang.com/e/blog/2010/10/22/echochrome_move_delay/

Sony Computer Entertainment Japan announced today a one month delay in the release of Mugen Kairo Hikari to Kage no Hako, known in the English speaking world as Echochrome 2. The game will miss its November 18 date and instead arrive on December 23.

...

Echochrome 2 is a PlayStation Move exclusive game. You hold the motion controller like a flashlight, and attempt to alter shadows to create paths that guide a silhouette character to the goal.

This one I will buy when it's in US.

patsu

22-Oct-2010, 20:16

:no: Didn't know ProStroke Golf is out already.

Got my copy today.
Now to seek out my ex-Golf buddies.

Checked with the Gamestop folks if they received any Move controller lately (Last time was 3 weeks ago). They did receive 4 more, but they are out again. The bundles are still there. So I asked them if they ever moved ? Manager said they did sell the bundles, but Sony shipped more to make sure they are stocked. Sounds good.

JPT

22-Oct-2010, 20:48

Not been able to find Prostroke Golf in Norway :/

patsu

22-Oct-2010, 23:08

May be they shipped low ? My store only has 2 copies.

djskribbles

23-Oct-2010, 00:07

Tried The Shoot on the included demo disc with the SC bundle and I'm VERY impressed with how it plays. After calibration, the cross-hairs line up nearly perfect if you hold the Move controller like a gun. Just like SC, the tracking is perfect as well with very minor lag (which is probably caused by my TV, which has ~30ms of lag). This has gone from a maybe to a must buy. If Time Crisis feels as good as this, I may just pick that up as well. I was also contemplating on picking up the gun attachments, but The Shoot has sold me on those as well.

patsu

23-Oct-2010, 01:09

RE5 + Move video interview:
http://blog.us.playstation.com/2010/10/22/a-closer-look-resident-evil-5-gold-edition-and-playstation-move/

Talks about controls…

patsu

23-Oct-2010, 01:12

Charger survey from iWaggle:
http://www.iwaggle3d.com/2010/10/playstation-move-charge-stations.html

EDIT: Bought the official charger for home. I might buy the Triple Charger for my office.

whome0

23-Oct-2010, 11:51

Not been able to find Prostroke Golf in Norway :/
I received my copy of John Daly Prostroke Golf a week ago, must buy for all golfers. I placed an order on thehut.com (http://www.thehut.com/games/platforms/ps3/john-daly-s-prostroke-golf-playstation-move/10220313.html) whey they had discounts, cost 33 euros including shipping to home address in Finland. /me happy golf winter season is secured now (my real life golf club is closed already, snow blanket everywhere)

patsu

23-Oct-2010, 17:41

happy golf winter season is secured now (my real life golf club is closed already, snow blanket everywhere)

We gave up golfing because I was spending too much on it (and not getting any better :lol:). My wife is pretty good. Unfortunately, she also gave up because of backache. I'll see if this one sticks.

onQ

24-Oct-2010, 09:35

RdcS57X531g

Beat Sketch looks kinda fun!

side note it looks like it lets you capture 720P video in the game because all the videos I seen from the game play has been 720P that's pretty cool, what resolution does EyePet let you capture at?

Shifty Geezer

24-Oct-2010, 09:43

640x480

Arwin

24-Oct-2010, 11:28

Beat Sketch looks kinda fun!

Although I don't really care that much for the music component I loved the free-draw demo, and so did the kids I played it with, and I was pretty curious about what kind of 'game' elements it was going to have so it's nice to see this. I like that they scroll the screen. I personally really hope that they improve the drawing bit, and I also wouldn't mind if we got an evolution at some point that uses 1:1 options for this rather than just drawing in x/y, for stuff like 'pressure sensitivity' and such.

Anyway, in Start-the-Party everyone loved the game where you draw in various shapes that end up forming an object that then stars in a short funny animation afterwards, and so a game mode in this that's similar is definitely a good idea. Would be great if you can make custom content for this at some point - though I understand that's in here already to some extent where others draw something and you have to mimic it as best possible. Anyway, I'm going to buy this game when it's out - the demo alone is worth the purchase for me, just as an encouragement.

On another note, I was in mediamarkt today, and while there were separate Move controllers and navcons available, the PS Eye / Move bundle was completely sold out. There were Playstation + Move bundles available though.

patsu

24-Oct-2010, 13:02

side note it looks like it lets you capture 720P video in the game because all the videos I seen from the game play has been 720P that's pretty cool, what resolution does EyePet let you capture at?

Huh, so the game upscales PSEye output to 720p (without appearing grainy) ?

Shifty Geezer

24-Oct-2010, 14:01

The YouTube clip at 720p looks like typical PSEye feed - SD and grainy. Just stretched to fit the frame.

Arwin

24-Oct-2010, 14:03

Huh, so the game upscales PSEye output to 720p (without appearing grainy) ?

Yes, that's typically what all games do. Well except that they typically remain grainy. ;) But the PS Eye can in fact appear not so grainy - recently we're seeing worse than average due to the camera settings being optimised for Move recognition.

onQ

24-Oct-2010, 17:21

Although I don't really care that much for the music component I loved the free-draw demo, and so did the kids I played it with, and I was pretty curious about what kind of 'game' elements it was going to have so it's nice to see this. I like that they scroll the screen. I personally really hope that they improve the drawing bit, and I also wouldn't mind if we got an evolution at some point that uses 1:1 options for this rather than just drawing in x/y, for stuff like 'pressure sensitivity' and such.

Anyway, in Start-the-Party everyone loved the game where you draw in various shapes that end up forming an object that then stars in a short funny animation afterwards, and so a game mode in this that's similar is definitely a good idea. Would be great if you can make custom content for this at some point - though I understand that's in here already to some extent where others draw something and you have to mimic it as best possible. Anyway, I'm going to buy this game when it's out - the demo alone is worth the purchase for me, just as an encouragement.

On another note, I was in mediamarkt today, and while there were separate Move controllers and navcons available, the PS Eye / Move bundle was completely sold out. There were Playstation + Move bundles available though.

it does use the Z axis because with the spray paint it changes as you get closer to the camera as if you was really using spay paint.

Arwin

24-Oct-2010, 17:24

it does use the Z axis because with the spray paint it changes as you get closer to the camera as if you was really using spay paint.

Maybe, but not direction, which is why so far I have the feeling that it's just looking at the size of the Move controller in the screen. You could consider that depth, but that's not quite in the way I mean it ... Anyway, I'd love for someone to take this to the next level and make something that's a sim of painting as much as possible, as it's great fun. The paint effect in start-the-party for instance is very good, and some kind of zooming options would be nice.

Anyway, I look forward trying the final version which perhaps shouldn't be too far off considering that it is a Japanese launch title ...

patsu

24-Oct-2010, 18:14

Yeah, the Beat Sketcher game screen looks much less grainy compared to say… EyePet. I think Start The Party is somewhere in between.

If they upscale the video, wouldn't that cause some lag ? I have always thought that they left the output "as is".

Shifty Geezer

24-Oct-2010, 18:43

Anyway, I'd love for someone to take this to the next level and make something that's a sim of painting as much as possible...Painting without tactile feedback is going to be awkward for most. Even a stylus is hard for most compared to direct pencil-on-paper. I can't imagine a painting 'sim' working at all well, although there's potential for more depth in the art-based games. Whatever happened to that art program on Wii based around some famous US TV artist?

onQ

24-Oct-2010, 18:49

patsu

24-Oct-2010, 19:11

Low light = more grainy ?

I remember Start the Party appears less so than EyePet under the same lighting. Need to check again.

upnorthsox

24-Oct-2010, 19:45

Painting without tactile feedback is going to be awkward for most. Even a stylus is hard for most compared to direct pencil-on-paper. I can't imagine a painting 'sim' working at all well, although there's potential for more depth in the art-based games. Whatever happened to that art program on Wii based around some famous US TV artist?

Well there is no tacile feedback with spray painting, the question in my mind is how fine can they get the spray. If they could get airbrush like effects you could see some outstanding stuff.

upnorthsox

24-Oct-2010, 19:47

Low light = more grainy ?

I remember Start the Party appears less so than EyePet under the same lighting. Need to check again.

Yes.

Shifty Geezer

24-Oct-2010, 20:14

Low light = more grainy ?Yes. It's basic signal amplification, which amplifies the noise too. Only solution is more light (from the scene or a larger camera iris), or a more sensitive sensor.

Well there is no tacile feedback with spray painting, the question in my mind is how fine can they get the spray. If they could get airbrush like effects you could see some outstanding stuff.Yes, but I understood Arwin to mean general painting, rather than airbrushing or grafity. You could do a good grafity type game having to shake the controller up and down like a can, and with the MEMS could angle the virtual cans effectively too. the question is would it get kids off the streets and virtually tagging instead of messing up bridges, or train a larger group to go out and do it fdor real?!

upnorthsox

24-Oct-2010, 21:03

Yes. It's basic signal amplification, which amplifies the noise too. Only solution is more light (from the scene or a larger camera iris), or a more sensitive sensor.

Yes, but I understood Arwin to mean general painting, rather than airbrushing or grafity. You could do a good grafity type game having to shake the controller up and down like a can, and with the MEMS could angle the virtual cans effectively too. the question is would it get kids off the streets and virtually tagging instead of messing up bridges, or train a larger group to go out and do it fdor real?!

Yea I did too. I think though that it's shortsighted as to what the possibilities are. A couple of good videos of airbrushing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWn9UDy_2b4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81_Y1T9tn8w&feature=related

Also, something that was done in my town that was fun and cool. It's also the kinda thing that'd work in a game type setting.

http://www.chicagotraveler.com/cowsonparade1.htm

Rotmm

24-Oct-2010, 21:44

Low light = more grainy ?

I remember Start the Party appears less so than EyePet under the same lighting. Need to check again.

Wouldn't that be because in Eyepet you'd generally have the camera pointing toward the floor? That being the case, there will be less direct light entering the camera sensor, therefore introducing more graining.

patsu

24-Oct-2010, 22:01

My son played both one after another. The camera was pointing down in both cases from the top of the TV.

djskribbles

24-Oct-2010, 22:07

The camera is definitely more grainy in low light for me.

RenegadeRocks

25-Oct-2010, 08:53

I like to MOVE it MOVE it ! He like to MOVE it MOVE it ! She like to MOVE it MOVE it ! We like to MOOOOOOOOOVE it ! :D

Yay ! Yay ! Yay ! I got MOVE ! :D :D

Arwin

25-Oct-2010, 08:57

Yes. It's basic signal amplification, which amplifies the noise too. Only solution is more light (from the scene or a larger camera iris), or a more sensitive sensor.

I posted most of my Sports Champions poses to my facebook page and most times I didn't bother to turn up the lights for the pose, and they look downright horrible. Plus they're very grainy. ;) So yeah, low light conditions kills this thing. But since you're posing they could have changed the sensitivity anyway and/or smoothed the image perhaps.

Yes, but I understood Arwin to mean general painting, rather than airbrushing or grafity. You could do a good grafity type game having to shake the controller up and down like a can, and with the MEMS could angle the virtual cans effectively too. the question is would it get kids off the streets and virtually tagging instead of messing up bridges, or train a larger group to go out and do it fdor real?!

I mean all sorts of painting. It still beats most alternatives. Having a 3D object means you can draw with the front or sides of the brush, the lower tip or other tip, etc. You could do a lot of things you can't with other input methods.

@Renegade: congrats!

Shifty Geezer

25-Oct-2010, 10:03

I posted most of my Sports Champions poses to my facebook page and most times I didn't bother to turn up the lights for the pose, and they look downright horrible. Plus they're very grainy. ;) So yeah, low light conditions kills this thing. But since you're posing they could have changed the sensitivity anyway and/or smoothed the image perhaps.[./quote]They could tweak the brightness after the capture for better exposure, and do a noise-reduction pass, although that's limited with very noisy images if you don't want them looking like cartoons.

[quote]I mean all sorts of painting. It still beats most alternatives. Having a 3D object means you can draw with the front or sides of the brush, the lower tip or other tip, etc. You could do a lot of things you can't with other input methods.An art program, sure, I could go wtih that. I wouldn't call it painting though. Maybe light painting! Different tools being used creatively - in fact talented artists would create some great images painting with HDR light.I'd aim for something new rather than trying to simulate classic contact arts.

tha_con

25-Oct-2010, 13:51

An art program, sure, I could go wtih that. I wouldn't call it painting though. Maybe light painting! Different tools being used creatively - in fact talented artists would create some great images painting with HDR light.I'd aim for something new rather than trying to simulate classic contact arts.

Why wouldn't you call it 'painting'? I mean, granted you're not using "real" paint, but IMO it's no different from using say, a Wacom Tablet on a PC.

Shifty Geezer

25-Oct-2010, 14:20

onQ

25-Oct-2010, 14:48

Arwin

25-Oct-2010, 15:22

Wacom tablets are contact interfaces that add stability to the drawing. Real painting has the paint adminstered exactly where you looking, so you can gauge distance from the plain of contact even if the bristles aren't providing resistance. Painting in the air, you don't know exactly where the plain of the page is.

A virtual brush and a shadow if your display is 2D can go a long way.

The whole thing will be quite airy-fairy. I mean, yeah, it's a type of painting or drawing, but you coudln't get a simulation as Arwin was saying. Any more than a flight-sim is a flight-sim with a dance-mat instead of a flight yoke!

I still maintain you can get closer to the real thing than with any virtual device we've had previously, with the exception of using a pen for pen-style drawing on a tablet. But the pen/tablet I believe is already less realistic for, say, painting water colors, because a brush down-stroke already has very very little resistance and you can't hold a pen so that you're only using the left 1/3rd of a brush, say. All this should be possible with a good Move implementation (which I think would exaggerate the real z distance to improve resolution).

Of course the air-brush demo from the first tech demo at TGS 2009 was already near perfect also and I'd love that as well - you can do great painting with that too.

(yes I have a Wacom too ;) )

patsu

25-Oct-2010, 18:55

onQ

25-Oct-2010, 19:10

ENvkdIaa_pY

proiv_eeuc8

reminds me of the old Simon game for some reason.

RenegadeRocks

26-Oct-2010, 06:50

Yeah, we should be able to draw on our coffee table though. Or use EyePet style sketch recognition on existing drawings. IMHO, these 2 approaches should cover most cases.

The vertical drawing method in Beat Sketcher and Start the Party are more for augmented reality where you need to see the overlap with real world -- like how Billy Idol sent me a photo of himself with "Moved" Viking horns and other props :

Hey ! It was me who sent u my "Moved" pic yesterday :D !
Tried some Demos yesterday. Surprisingly, from watching videos of the games, the games that I had thought "won't" be fun turned out to be the most fun yesterday. Eyepet became an immediate favoutrite of everyone :) , followed by Start The Party and The Shoot ! Aumented Reality is, as I had always thought, just FUN :cool: ! Eyepet is just so loveable, but even Start the Party became a laugh riot ! My niece just couldn't stop laughing as I kept striking funny poses and doing funny things with the "Bug swatting Raquet " ! If it wasn't fun, then we made it fun :) ! Paiting was her favourite !
Similarly, The Shoot, which I had imagined to be an absolutely Lame game from watching all the videos, was very entertaining while actually playing. Shooting quickly and doing "Showtime", especially with family around, was a blast ! Just one issue, evertime it asked me to lower the controller to take cover, I would instinctively duck, as in almost sit down. Multiple "duckings" have left me with a pain in my left thigh :lol: ! Everyone has been joking since yesterday that Move has actually "Moved" me :lol: !

Overall, for the first time i have found casual family gaming so much fun ! Move has brought the ps3 out from my bedroom to our living room, and my family is asking me switch it on again ! Move is a winner !

patsu

26-Oct-2010, 16:27

:lol: My bad !

So I won't be seeing you in Resistance anymore, now that your family has started to hog the black box ? :-)

EDIT: Where did you buy Beat Sketcher from ?

tha_con

26-Oct-2010, 17:37

Wacom tablets are contact interfaces that add stability to the drawing. Real painting has the paint adminstered exactly where you looking, so you can gauge distance from the plain of contact even if the bristles aren't providing resistance. Painting in the air, you don't know exactly where the plain of the page is. The whole thing will be quite airy-fairy. I mean, yeah, it's a type of painting or drawing, but you coudln't get a simulation as Arwin was saying. Any more than a flight-sim is a flight-sim with a dance-mat instead of a flight yoke!

Yea, you haven't used Beatsketchers yet have you :lol:

Having used Wacom tablets extensively over the last 5 years, and used Beatsketchers, they both work well as artistic mediums for painting.

with beatsketchers, instead of using pressure on the plain to draw thinner / thicker strokes, you use a button to apply pressure. It's a different implementation, but that certainly doesn't take away from it's ability to 'paint' as an artistic medium. You're just being entirely too literal :P

Arwin

26-Oct-2010, 18:36

EDIT: Where did you buy Beat Sketcher from ?

Should be up in Japan at least, but perhaps he's just playing the very feature-rich demo?

Shifty Geezer

26-Oct-2010, 18:55

You're just being entirely too literal :PYeah, I'll concede that one. ;)

patsu

26-Oct-2010, 21:14

A painting program for kids is not a bad idea, especially when Dr. Marks and Anton touted writing as a unique Move feature. My kid always makes a mess when he paints with water colors. Some digital painting sessions should complement his art side rather well.

patsu

26-Oct-2010, 22:02

Dynasty Warrior 7 will support Move:
http://www.electronictheatre.co.uk/index.php/industry-news/6273-dynasty-warriors-7-to-support-stereoscopic-3d-a-playstation-move-designed-specifically-for-playstation-3

Though a direct translation was not available, Electronic Theatre did manage to obtain many important details and snippets of information from the press conference. Having admitted that Dynasty Warriors 6 didn’t push the PlayStation 3 hardware to it’s fullest, the producer of the latest titles in the series, Akihiro Suzuki, stated that Dynasty Warriors 7 is being built from the ground-up with Sony’s platform in mind. Obviously an announcement designed entirely to please the Japanese audience, there was no confirmation that the game would be a PlayStation 3 exclusive internationally, just that it had been built with Sony’s hardware as the lead format. With that of course, came the confirmation that Dynasty Warriors 7 would support the host format’s stereoscopic 3D capability, both in online play and offline, running at a minimum of 30fps at all times. Additionally, Dynasty Warriors 7 will support the recently released PlayStation Move motion-controller, though in what capacity and to what extent it is not yet known.

patsu

27-Oct-2010, 03:41

http://blog.us.playstation.com/2010/10/26/no-more-heroes-heroes-paradise-announced-exclusively-for-ps3-and-playstation-move/

KONAMI Digital Entertainment, Inc. announced today that No More Heroes: Heroes’ Paradise is coming to PlayStation 3 and will be compatible with Sony’s new PlayStation Move controls…

It's compatible with DS3 also.

RenegadeRocks

27-Oct-2010, 08:38

:lol: My bad !

So I won't be seeing you in Resistance anymore, now that your family has started to hog the black box ? :-)

EDIT: Where did you buy Beat Sketcher from ?

Heh ! Heh ! Oh, you'll see me joining the Resistance for sure :twisted:, cos I am sure R3 will support Move(I hope so) ! Frankly speaking, playing with Move is very 'Liberating' ! When the Golf demo asked me to pick up the Sixaxis, I just didn't like it at all :( ! I think jumping around with one arm flailing , somehow gets me into the game more than just twiddling my thumbs :wink: !

Start The Party's 'Group Play' turned out even more fun, as it spawned swords and hammers into our hands ! And it switches game modes very fast in vs mode, making it a laugh riot. Even my Dad, an Army officer who thinks that Move (and games in general)is an absolute waste of time n money(though his son, mighty Me, makes games for a living these days), could not keep his stoic posture and burst out laughing when he saw me n my niece frantically trying to keep up with slicing fruit with swords,hitting weasels with hammers and swatting bugs with raquets :D !

As for Beat Sketchers, well I was just messing with the demo. I gave it to my niece and she came up with some beautiful cartoons. Basically, its just a painting app without the advanced photoshop filters.Good for kids to have fun as it can include u in the pic.

One question, how do you record a video or take a snap with the PS Eye camera? I couldn't find any option in the XMB :-/ !

patsu

27-Oct-2010, 08:51

You use the free EyeCreate software from the PS Store.

patsu

27-Oct-2010, 08:53

Who are the people behind Crafts & Meister ?
http://www.andriasang.com/e/blog/2010/10/27/crafts_meister_move_and_3ds/

Crafts & Meister, a studio formed in 2004 by former Capcom talent Noritaka Funamizu, is featured in this week's Famitsu as part of a set of developer commentaries.

In some brief comments shared with the magazine, Funamizu revealed that he's interested in Sony's PlayStation Move peripheral. And there's a good reason for his interest -- he's making a game for the device! He wouldn't share further details, though, saying that the game has yet to be announced.

onQ

27-Oct-2010, 10:18

Heh ! Heh ! Oh, you'll see me joining the Resistance for sure :twisted:, cos I am sure R3 will support Move(I hope so) ! Frankly speaking, playing with Move is very 'Liberating' ! When the Golf demo asked me to pick up the Sixaxis, I just didn't like it at all :( ! I think jumping around with one arm flailing , somehow gets me into the game more than just twiddling my thumbs :wink: !

Start The Party's 'Group Play' turned out even more fun, as it spawned swords and hammers into our hands ! And it switches game modes very fast in vs mode, making it a laugh riot. Even my Dad, an Army officer who thinks that Move (and games in general)is an absolute waste of time n money(though his son, mighty Me, makes games for a living these days), could not keep his stoic posture and burst out laughing when he saw me n my niece frantically trying to keep up with slicing fruit with swords,hitting weasels with hammers and swatting bugs with raquets :D !

As for Beat Sketchers, well I was just messing with the demo. I gave it to my niece and she came up with some beautiful cartoons. Basically, its just a painting app without the advanced photoshop filters.Good for kids to have fun as it can include u in the pic.

One question, how do you record a video or take a snap with the PS Eye camera? I couldn't find any option in the XMB :-/ !

Eye Create lets you record video ,take pictures & record audio ,

Beat Sketch is more they just a painting app it's a game but the demo doesn't let you try the gameplay out.

RenegadeRocks

27-Oct-2010, 10:52

Eye Create lets you record video ,take pictures & record audio ,

Beat Sketch is more they just a painting app it's a game but the demo doesn't let you try the gameplay out.

Well, then they should have put a trailer in the demo showing some gameplay. From the demo, all one can deduce is that u can paint in it.

As for Eyecreate, why don't they bundle it with the camera? not everybody has net on his ps3, and anyways theres nothing to guide me regarding the camera.

onQ

27-Oct-2010, 11:01

Well, then they should have put a trailer in the demo showing some gameplay. From the demo, all one can deduce is that u can paint in it.

As for Eyecreate, why don't they bundle it with the camera? not everybody has net on his ps3, and anyways theres nothing to guide me regarding the camera.

yeah it was kinda silly of Sony not to have Eye Create on disc for people who don't have PSN.

as for Beat Sketch these are the only game play videos I've seen

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ENvkdIaa_pY

proiv_eeuc8

Arwin

27-Oct-2010, 11:02

Well, then they should have put a trailer in the demo showing some gameplay. From the demo, all one can deduce is that u can paint in it.

Or maybe you should just use your eyes (or perhaps memory) a little better. The start-up menu, where you choose the option to freely paint has a few other options in there as well that are 'unavailable in the demo' that should clearly give this away.

As for Eyecreate, why don't they bundle it with the camera? not everybody has net on his ps3, and anyways theres nothing to guide me regarding the camera.

EyeCreate was released after the PS Eye so for most people it was available as download only always anyway. I agree they could have put it on the Move demo disc, but I can understand they just didn't bother to get a disc version of this.

RenegadeRocks

27-Oct-2010, 16:03

Or maybe you should just use your eyes (or perhaps memory) a little better. The start-up menu, where you choose the option to freely paint has a few other options in there as well that are 'unavailable in the demo' that should clearly give this away.

EyeCreate was released after the PS Eye so for most people it was available as download only always anyway. I agree they could have put it on the Move demo disc, but I can understand they just didn't bother to get a disc version of this.

Hey, my eyes n memory are fine, my friend :), but the menu screen doesn't tell me in anyway what those options hide, other than that two players can paint together, maybe or one adter the other. They have not included any screens or videos of actual gameplay or any des ription even. From the demo, all I could see is that its a musical painting app. Had I not come here , I would have dismissed it as a painting app.

90% of my acquaintance's ps3s have never been online as most of them are young and their parents won't let them go online. Those young ones are the ones who r gonna ask for Move once they see it in my house. Imagine trying to tell thier parents that though they are buying the camera, they can't really click pics or videos as Sony forgot to put the software on the disc. Now, imagine me trying to explain about creating an online id to them, when they don't even have email ids :-/ !

When u buy something, its logical to expect it to work out of the box.

Arwin

27-Oct-2010, 16:45

AntShaw

27-Oct-2010, 16:56

Pain update for Move went live yesterday. Apparently you can now just grab your character and then throw them into the scenery, and Ooch has been expanded a little. Here are some details, also on new game modes that will be added next week, among which one made for 3D where you throw bombs at stuff that come at you, or throw bombs into the environment.

http://www.painthegame.com/Blog/index.htm?blogId=131

I'll surely check it out tonight or so. My son would probably like it at the moment (loves to crash things into each other). And I've secretly been addicted to this game for some 20 hours or so myself too.

I've always been a fan of PAIN. Haven't played it in ages, looking forward to this update.

On a side note, I went back to Heavy Rain this weekend to check out the Move support and came away pretty disappointed. To the point I felt the new controls actually took away from the gameplay experience instead of adding. I found the gesture motions to be awkward given any situation. Brushing my teeth was just an animation trigger. In addition, this was the first game I played with having to use the DS3 in addition to the Move wand. With that said, there was clearly potential. If this game was designed ground up with the Move in mind, I could see where it could add some overall immersion. I'll be looking forward to a game like this that puts Move through it's paces.

Billy Idol

27-Oct-2010, 17:12

I have bought now the playstation move starter bundle, costed 349 Euros. The reason I bought it is because of the 320GB HDD included (although, my old PS3 has a 320GB as well, I am happy that I don't have to "implement" it myself this time).

I really wonder if I will ever use the Move itself though, I wonder if Sony will release some kind of killer app for this controller? Is there a potential Move killer app in sight?

patsu

27-Oct-2010, 17:29

I've always been a fan of PAIN. Haven't played it in ages, looking forward to this update.

On a side note, I went back to Heavy Rain this weekend to check out the Move support and came away pretty disappointed. To the point I felt the new controls actually took away from the gameplay experience instead of adding. I found the gesture motions to be awkward given any situation. Brushing my teeth was just an animation trigger. In addition, this was the first game I played with having to use the DS3 in addition to the Move wand. With that said, there was clearly potential. If this game was designed ground up with the Move in mind, I could see where it could add some overall immersion. I'll be looking forward to a game like this that puts Move through it's paces.

I was wary about the change before I replay Heavy Rain. Didn't think there's a big difference between DS3 and Move. If my memory still serves me, brushing your teeth using DS3 or Move are similar. They both mimic the real action, but I believe Move does it a little better because of the shape of the controller.

As the game progresses, I began to prefer Move more. But that initial hurdle of figuring out the icon, getting used to the controller will hamper the experience. Some people will be turned off before they play enough to like it.

The missed opportunity is the brawling. I think Move's Gladiator fight will shine there compared to DS3 QTE-like controls. It's a lot of change though.

patsu

27-Oct-2010, 17:39

As for Eyecreate, why don't they bundle it with the camera? not everybody has net on his ps3, and anyways theres nothing to guide me regarding the camera.

I agree they should have planned better when they release a hardware. ^_^

And when they release a non-game, they should not forget about the big picture. EyeCreate is nice, but should be integrated with, or accessible from inside, the Photo Gallery app, LittleBigPlanet, and any other relevant titles.

upnorthsox

27-Oct-2010, 17:56

Well it wouldn't have been trivial to add a $2 BD for just a 40MB app or to change the packaging to accommodate it either. It was definitely an oversight to leave it out of the euro Move demo bundle but since the NA bundle has an actual game disc/package it would've taken another disc there too.

I always thought Eyecreate version 2 would be the integrated version but I guess I was wrong. I think they've gotten the wrong/no feedback on this app.

patsu

27-Oct-2010, 18:28

It's ok if they have an end goal or final vision in mind. They can include it in regular Move games or user-generated content games where it make sense.

patsu

27-Oct-2010, 23:41

After a month of stock out, the Move controllers are in stock in my nearest Gamestop now.

patsu

28-Oct-2010, 07:25

They should bring Beat Sketcher to the western world:

This one shows precision writing:
hq8HSD1hTn0

[Cue angry patsu over Sony's unwillingness/inability to make non-games for Move]

Arwin

28-Oct-2010, 09:25

But Beat Sketcher demo is already in the Western world, and the game could be released here any day now? I was writing pretty numbers and his name for my son just yesterday (as well as a cute little house based on a farm in one of his books, with which he played 'peek-a-boo' by popping up from behind it or looking through the "windows").

And I can do all that for free, which is awesome. ;)

onQ

28-Oct-2010, 09:47

They should bring Beat Sketcher to the western world:

This one shows precision writing:
hq8HSD1hTn0

[Cue angry patsu over Sony's unwillingness/inability to make non-games for Move]

well that pretty much killed any move is just a wiimote talk.

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I wonder how many types of games you can play in Beat Sketch?

patsu

28-Oct-2010, 10:09

I wonder how many types of games you can play in Beat Sketch?

A lot can be explored using similar concepts (not just Beat Sketcher per se):

* A fashion game for the user to draw/outline his or her outfit around oneself, and let the title search for real life garment with the right color. Move can also be used to do some measurements by placing it at different point of the user's body.

* A LBP-like game for users to sketch a level using bird's eye view. This is similar to the tank game.

* An Okami game for using calligraphy/stroke to express in-game actions

* Text input for Google search by pulling out a layer anytime/anywhere (like Anton's Minority Report layer).

* Sketch input for photo search

* Allow users to draw on table so it's less tiring and more precise

blah...

Arwin

28-Oct-2010, 10:19

I noticed that the spray painting in Beat Sketcher, although it's not great imho (not even close to the Move demo from Richard/Anton), does in fact take some depth type of information to determine if you have a wide spray or compact (I think the Anton/Richard demo had it on the trigger, which may be more precise for this kind of thing considering that z-depth is about 1cm, so 25 steps of precision requires at least 25cm z movement). I'll certainly have to try if I can do the type of Kanji that was demonstrated in that video though, very interesting.

onQ

28-Oct-2010, 10:37

A lot can be explored using similar concepts (not just Beat Sketcher per se):

* A fashion game for the user to draw/outline his or her outfit around oneself, and let the title search for real life garment with the right color. Move can also be used to do some measurements by placing it at different point of the user's body.

* A LBP-like game for users to sketch a level using bird's eye view. This is similar to the tank game.

* An Okami game for using calligraphy/stroke to express in-game actions

* Text input for Google search by pulling out a layer anytime/anywhere (like Anton's Minority Report layer).

* Sketch input for photo search

* Allow users to draw on table so it's less tiring and more precise

blah...

I wonder how a online game of Win , Lose or Draw would turn out with Move?

Move is kinda bringing the real world into video games because most of the games that you can play in real life with your hands can be done in games with move

patsu

29-Oct-2010, 08:01

I received my copy of John Daly Prostroke Golf a week ago, must buy for all golfers. I placed an order on thehut.com (http://www.thehut.com/games/platforms/ps3/john-daly-s-prostroke-golf-playstation-move/10220313.html) whey they had discounts, cost 33 euros including shipping to home address in Finland. /me happy golf winter season is secured now (my real life golf club is closed already, snow blanket everywhere)

Got home early. I fooled around with the game tonight. Liked it a lot, more so than Sports Champions. It's surprisingly satisfying. Makes me all excited about MLB The Show too.

It's been years since I went on the green. Too bad no one plays online. I think Sony should encourage developers to make more online Move titles. They should also get more golfers to try this game.

The tracking is sensitive and authentic. But I wish they make bigger on-screen buttons so that it's easier to target.

patsu

29-Oct-2010, 08:04

I wonder how a online game of Win , Lose or Draw would turn out with Move?

Move is kinda bringing the real world into video games because most of the games that you can play in real life with your hands can be done in games with move

These party games are fun and all, but I hope Sony makes more serious games, and market them properly.

They should also push Sports Champions, John Daly ProStroke Golf more aggressively.

The fashion title I mentioned above should be interesting too ! :-P

NeoTechni

29-Oct-2010, 09:35

I hate how EyeCreate videos cant be used with the video uploader

Worse, the VU makes MP4 videos of anything. PSP plays MP4 videos. VU wont make videos for PSP.

Arwin

29-Oct-2010, 09:45

There are some strange limitations here and there. For instance, when I used the video recording feature for Joe Danger and saved it to disc, I couldn't edit and then upload it. But when I copied it to my external HDD first, I could do all these things.

onQ

29-Oct-2010, 09:53

I hate how EyeCreate videos cant be used with the video uploader

Worse, the VU makes MP4 videos of anything. PSP plays MP4 videos. VU wont make videos for PSP.

& they need to update EyeCreate so it can record 720P video like Beat Sketch & let you upload right to youtube,

--ymTmj7oxI

j-0MmnE4n1w

people in japan have already started using Beat Sketch to record & upload videos.

Shifty Geezer

29-Oct-2010, 10:59

Well it can't record 720p video, but proper Youtube support seems pretty essential for any video creation tool.

patsu

29-Oct-2010, 17:01

& they need to update EyeCreate so it can record 720P video like Beat Sketch & let you upload right to youtube,

--ymTmj7oxI

j-0MmnE4n1w

people in japan have already started using Beat Sketch to record & upload videos.

I don't understand. What kind of game is Beat Sketcher ?

patsu

29-Oct-2010, 17:03

I hate how EyeCreate videos cant be used with the video uploader

Worse, the VU makes MP4 videos of anything. PSP plays MP4 videos. VU wont make videos for PSP.

There are some strange limitations here and there. For instance, when I used the video recording feature for Joe Danger and saved it to disc, I couldn't edit and then upload it. But when I copied it to my external HDD first, I could do all these things.

That's the usability gaps that define Sony's UI experience.

None of their people probably use these apps. Kaz should retrain these managers, or take away their budget. :twisted:

corduroygt

29-Oct-2010, 18:02

I've always been a fan of PAIN. Haven't played it in ages, looking forward to this update.
Get ready to download and install gigs and gigs of patches :)

patsu

29-Oct-2010, 19:39

The Fight (Lights Out) impressions:
http://www.gamesradar.com/ps3/the-fight-lights-out/news/the-fight-lights-out-event-jabs-us-with-updated-gameplay-impressions-danny-trejo/a-20101028173619372070/g-20100310175954296039

In the 30 minutes I spent with The Fight, the much touted 1:1 responsiveness was as impressive as many of the better-rated Move launch titles. Yet the game still adheres to the same principles of every decent motion-controlled fighting game that has come before it. Panic-induced flailing will not get you far and knowing all the available moves is key. Players also need to mindfully take advantage of both controllers and the PlayStation Eye. For example, ducking with just your upper body does not always make your character drop down; it is only when you move the two controllers downward along with your body that the fighter actually ducks reliably. Hey, wait – that sounds a lot like exercise.

...

onQ

29-Oct-2010, 20:05

Well it can't record 720p video, but proper Youtube support seems pretty essential for any video creation tool.

yes it can!

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in Beat Sketch it's some how up-converting the PS-Eye video to 720P and recording it at the same time. it might not be proper 720p video but it's still letting you record in 720P

patsu

29-Oct-2010, 20:09

Arwin

29-Oct-2010, 20:18

Get ready to download and install gigs and gigs of patches :)

That's what I expected too when I installed it on my Slim the other day for the first time. However, downloading the game was 1.7GB or so and then there were 2 updates or so bringing it up to version 7.11. Granted they were fairly big updates (384MB in total or so?) but not as much as I expected. It's clear that it's not just the launch version and then all the updates from then on.

Arwin

29-Oct-2010, 20:21

And why is the Beat Sketcher demo or game not available in US ? SCEA doesn't like casual games ?

Have you checked your Move demo disc? Because I think it's on there.

Hey it looks like they basically fully integrated all EyeCreate functionality into Beat Sketchers. So that's at least something.

patsu

29-Oct-2010, 20:23

There is no Move demo disc in US. At least I didn't see one.

The demoes are all available on PSN. I don't see Beat Sketcher there either.

upnorthsox

29-Oct-2010, 20:25

Have you checked your Move demo disc? Because I think it's on there.

Hey it looks like they basically fully integrated all EyeCreate functionality into Beat Sketchers. So that's at least something.

Looking at OnQ's videos, it appears they've upped the quality in video capture over EyeCreate. That or their lighting is alot better than mine.

Arwin

29-Oct-2010, 20:37

There is no Move demo disc in US. At least I didn't see one.

The demoes are all available on PSN. I don't see Beat Sketcher there either.

Maybe then check some of your other Move games (bluray discs) - some of them have demoes on them for other Move games.

patsu

29-Oct-2010, 20:44

*grumble* *grumble*

[Looking for Jack Tretton's home phone number...]

Arwin

29-Oct-2010, 20:45

*grumble* *grumble*

[Looking for Jack Tretton's home phone number...]

From Kotaku:

Until I found it lurking as an extra demo on my review copy of PlayStation Move games Kung Fu Rider and Start The Party, I had only heard of Beat Sketcher once. That one time I heard of it was when, at a Sony gaming showcase, I was told that Beat Sketcher had been removed because it wasn't working well.

(If you don't have Start the Party yet, you should get it for you and your kids anyway)

patsu

29-Oct-2010, 20:47

Beat Sketcher had been removed because it wasn't working well

[Look at videos]

Beat Sketcher had been removed because it wasn't working well

[Stare at happy gamers in the videos]

Beat Sketcher had been removed because Jack Tretton wasn't working well

EDIT: I have Start the Party ! Will double check tonight.

onQ

29-Oct-2010, 21:10

There is no Move demo disc in US. At least I didn't see one.

The demoes are all available on PSN. I don't see Beat Sketcher there either.

The Demo came with my Sports Champion bundle, I'm in the US.

patsu

29-Oct-2010, 21:15

I didn't buy the bundle. :-(

I remember Start the Party has an additional icon when I loaded it. May be it's there. Will know fer sure tonight.

corduroygt

29-Oct-2010, 21:21

onQ

29-Oct-2010, 21:23

Arwin

29-Oct-2010, 21:26

Anyone have any tips for the Champions Cup in Table Tennis? It seems like no matter how hard or how much to the corner of the table I hit, they return the ball. I'm stuck at the 2nd person. This is clearly a hardcore game.

I'm one further, but yeah had some trouble with this one. You basically have to be patient, play conservative but try to get some variation in left/right/soft/fast (though err on the slow side as she can return a fast ball wicked fast sometimes) and look for an opening. Usually this opening is in the form of that she's on the left side of the table and you can get close to the table on the left side and smash it towards the right.

That's all I've got, and that the slow, backward spinning serve (slice), if you can pull it off, is one that frequently either catches her out or puts her in a bad position that you can take advantage of. I loved that serve in real life btw.

But yeah, Champions Cup is hardcore stuff for sure.

patsu

29-Oct-2010, 23:00

iWaggle surveys all the Move accessories on the market (Part 1 of 4):
http://www.iwaggle3d.com/2010/10/playstation-move-third-party_17.html

Part II: Swords
http://www.iwaggle3d.com/2010/10/playstation-move-accessories-swords.html

Charger survey from iWaggle:
http://www.iwaggle3d.com/2010/10/playstation-move-charge-stations.html

EDIT: Bought the official charger for home. I might buy the Triple Charger for my office.

And Part 4 (Last one):
http://www.iwaggle3d.com/2010/10/playstation-move-accessories-grips.html

Guns? Check. Swords? Check. Chargers? Check. Having covered all of the above categories it's time to take a look at the last but not least important PlayStation Move accessories of our tour: the grips, the straps and the camera TV clips. Basically all the stuff that helps in protecting our PlayStation Move paraphernalia.

...

patsu

29-Oct-2010, 23:03

New details on Move support in The Sly Collection:
http://www.iwaggle3d.com/2010/10/move-support-sly-collection.html

We knew since July that the PlayStation Move support in The Sly Collection was going to be limited to some mini-games. Today, Sony has revealed a little bit more about those, whilst confirming 3D support throughout all the 3 games (and mini-games) included in the collection, as well as announcing a solid release date for North America: November 9th (at $39.99).

There collection will include 4 custom Move-compatible mini-games, one for each main character of the series (Sly, Bentley, Murray, and Carmelita). The mini-games will support up to 4 players simultaneously, and will be playable with a standard DualShock 3 controller as well (so don't expect mind-blowing applications of Move-sugar).

patsu

30-Oct-2010, 07:56

Found The Beat Sketcher demo on the Start the Party game disc.

Only the Create mode is turned on.

It's actually different from what I expected. In this mode, it's a musical 3D drawing tool projected onto the 2D TV screen. If I draw a perfect circle almost horizontally, it will show up as an oval on screen. That's pretty neat.

I painted a farm with different animals in an imaginary 3D space, they all get mapped onto the TV canvas. Some of 'em become a mess because of the 3D-to-2D projection. I can see how they can make a 3D augmented reality game by allowing the player to insert props at the right spot in the real world.

There are many possibilities with Move, it's a pity the devs only do simple mini games with it.

Rotmm

30-Oct-2010, 08:01

it's a pity the devs only do simple mini games with it.

It's very early days yet.

patsu

30-Oct-2010, 08:47

Yes, some of it may be man-effort related, but it's also a question of choice and aspiration.

Sony partners tried to do games/apps like Dress before, but they didn't get it right. They don't seem to understand non-game needs very well.

Should also devote some effort to decide what would make the biggest impact. Then, do the best Move implementation.

Shifty Geezer

30-Oct-2010, 10:21

in Beat Sketch it's some how up-converting the PS-Eye video to 720P and recording it at the same time. it might not be proper 720p...Then it's not 720p recording! ;) You may as well capture 640x480 and let your YouTube player upscale it to 720p as upscale the capture and then take more bandwidth to up/download it. They have to upscale the video feed to 720p prior to recording as they are incorpoating the 720p graphics, but it's definitely wrong to call the capture 720p. PSEye cannot capture higher than NTSC SD resolution.

Arwin

30-Oct-2010, 10:38

Then it's not 720p recording! ;) You may as well capture 640x480 and let your YouTube player upscale it to 720p as upscale the capture and then take more bandwidth to up/download it. They have to upscale the video feed to 720p prior to recording as they are incorpoating the 720p graphics, but it's definitely wrong to call the capture 720p. PSEye cannot capture higher than NTSC SD resolution.

I'm sure his piont was that the PS Eye feed is upscaled and mixed with all the non-upscaled 720p drawing that you do on the screen, which can then be uploaded to youtube as a 720p feed.

I've added a 'Playstation Art' public photo album to my facebook by the way, to which I uploaded some of the stuff I've been up to. It's nothing special (I'm not an artist), but it's still great fun. Yesterday I drew outlines around myself twice, so that I got two figures sitting on my couch.

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=43733&id=100000002767007

onQ

30-Oct-2010, 10:42

Then it's not 720p recording! ;) You may as well capture 640x480 and let your YouTube player upscale it to 720p as upscale the capture and then take more bandwidth to up/download it. They have to upscale the video feed to 720p prior to recording as they are incorpoating the 720p graphics, but it's definitely wrong to call the capture 720p. PSEye cannot capture higher than NTSC SD resolution.

I know what it's doing I'm just saying that they need to update eyecreate to let you record in 720P in the same way that Beat Sketcher does.

if you have the Beat Sketcher demo start it up and take a look at the video feed coming from the PS-Eye its being upscaled on the fly and in the full game they let you record that video feed in 720P. & it looks really good for a 640 x 480 webcam.

a few minutes ago I was just holding my PS-Eye like a camcorder and moving around the room looking at the video feed in the beat sketcher demo and it's kinda amazing that the PS-Eye can look that good.

Shifty Geezer

30-Oct-2010, 12:05

I know what it's doing I'm just saying that they need to update eyecreate to let you record in 720P in the same way that Beat Sketcher does.But why?! I can capture 480p video in EyeCreate and have it upscaled to 720p on playback. I think what you're really saying is Beat Sketchers has a good quality capture which EyeCreate lacks - I just recorded some footage, exported it and viewed it on PS3's video player in full-screen stretch, and it looked terrible because of the capture AFAICS. The PSEye on Windows looks much better.

Edit: Even better still, go into camera settings in your PS3 and check the preview video. Decent saturation which the Windows driver lacks; the quality looked very good.

Once you've got a good capture you can upscale on the player, meaning 720p resolution export isn't particularly needed for the video feed. As to why Eye Create isn't updated, I imagine it's obsolete. Hasn't had any update in 3 years, and everyone has webcams, camcorders and camera-phones these days making PS3's video capture and editing redundant.

patsu

30-Oct-2010, 17:13

I'm sure his piont was that the PS Eye feed is upscaled and mixed with all the non-upscaled 720p drawing that you do on the screen, which can then be uploaded to youtube as a 720p feed.

I've added a 'Playstation Art' public photo album to my facebook by the way, to which I uploaded some of the stuff I've been up to. It's nothing special (I'm not an artist), but it's still great fun. Yesterday I drew outlines around myself twice, so that I got two figures sitting on my couch.

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=43733&id=100000002767007

Arwin, you Facebook link requires login.

tha_con

30-Oct-2010, 18:38

Yeah but what exactly is Beat Sketcher ? All the videos show different gameplay. And for the home-made boy band video, there is no goal ? :-)

EDIT: Holy cr*p, saw the last video. <3 it !

Please allow horizontal drawing mode in an upgrade.

And why is the Beat Sketcher demo or game not available in US ? SCEA doesn't like casual games ?

Beat Sketcher is a rhythm game at its core. Basically, a music track will play, and you must follow the strokes in rhythm to copy the music that plays, which creates music while you play, as well as an image.

THere are alternative modes where you can "freestyle" playing your own music, and then selecting sounds that will play as you paint. The pitch and effects of the sound are determined by your speed and size of the stroke, if I remember correctly.

What we have in the demo is the freestyle mode.

Then it's not 720p recording! ;) You may as well capture 640x480 and let your YouTube player upscale it to 720p as upscale the capture and then take more bandwidth to up/download it. They have to upscale the video feed to 720p prior to recording as they are incorpoating the 720p graphics, but it's definitely wrong to call the capture 720p. PSEye cannot capture higher than NTSC SD resolution.

It's seems like your being technical for the sake of being technical. Regardless of what the PS Eye is capturing, the resolution is upscaled to 720p. If the game is rendering said upscaled footage at 720p, then it's 720p. You can argue all you want, but the issue of recording here isn't resolution, it's quality. The footage that is captured and uploaded to youtube is 720p, unless you have a magic TV that can display multiple resolutions at the exact same time ;)

Arwin

30-Oct-2010, 19:02

Arwin, you Facebook link requires login.

I hate when that happens .... Ok, how about this one:

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=43733&id=100000002767007&l=3211915c21

patsu

30-Oct-2010, 19:58

This one is what I have in mind:

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs777.snc4/67707_172558236087601_100000002767007_645042_48633 25_n.jpg

Drawing and measuring life-size items so that PSEye can look and tell me similar items that complement my settings. ^_^

Your PSEye output is definitely less grainy than mine. My living room is probably too dark. :-)

onQ

30-Oct-2010, 20:14

Arwin

30-Oct-2010, 21:02

We have a pretty good top light (turned to brightest setting here I think), but it's 3 smaller halogen lights and the ceiling is rather high (2.8m). Of course daytime works best, as you can see in the shot with the girl and the snail (I was playing pictionary with them).

patsu

31-Oct-2010, 05:46

We had a small Halloween family activity today. See what I did ^_^ …

http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/2416/beatsketcher20101030.png

patsu

31-Oct-2010, 06:02

The original poster is here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Neighbor_Totoro

Wanted to test the 3D drawing capability of Move.

Interestingly, I could paint over everything around Totoro easily by tracing the outline of the pumpkin using Move. ^_^. Because it's a 3D object, I had to be mindful which contour I trace. It's not so difficult with some experimenting.

The other fine details are all done with Move in free 3D space. Sometimes, I needed to hold my right hand for precise positioning (Ha ha, my hand was shaking too much). Other than that, it felt like well… drawing on a vertical piece of paper.

I used a ruler to draw the sign post (Slide the Move controller along the vertical edge). Also used a circular CD/DVD container to trace the face of the sign post.

The most difficult part is the rain drops. This is because my PSEye camera was pointing downwards. So the 3D-to-2D projection will skew my ruler's angle to the floor (i.e. it's no longer perpendicular). Had to draw the rain drops free hand. It's extremely difficult to draw a perfectly vertical line in 3D space. The stamp tool is too primitive to use (Can only copy a very small square).

Overall, I am very happy with the consistency and precision of the controller. As expected, Beat Sketchers' tools are not for heavy duty use (Limited selection of color, brush size, …). Would be interesting to see some advanced drawing game. I wonder if EyePet's sketch recognition can be extended by 3D drawing/tracing. ^_^

EDIT: Please add a "save as draft" feature to Beat Sketcher. :-P

The undo is a godsend. My son accidentally erased his drawing and screamed. :lol2:

… and take that ! LBP 2 beta testers. -_-

Shifty Geezer

31-Oct-2010, 10:25

It's seems like your being technical for the sake of being technical. Yes. I don't want anyone reading about Beat Sketchers recording 720p video and thinking PSEye can do that. It can't. As long as we're clear what is happening, I have no complaints with the suggestion that Eye Create be update to enable video uploads to Youtube including higher quality 720p upscales. Except that as I said, Eye Create is a defunct product not worth Sony's attention at this point. If they want video creation support, they need a way to get videos off mobiles onto PS3 for messing around with, and that sound like something people won't bother with when they have PCs or even direct YouTube support in their capture devices.

upnorthsox

31-Oct-2010, 11:31

Yes. I don't want anyone reading about Beat Sketchers recording 720p video and thinking PSEye can do that. It can't. As long as we're clear what is happening, I have no complaints with the suggestion that Eye Create be update to enable video uploads to Youtube including higher quality 720p upscales. Except that as I said, Eye Create is a defunct product not worth Sony's attention at this point. If they want video creation support, they need a way to get videos off mobiles onto PS3 for messing around with, and that sound like something people won't bother with when they have PCs or even direct YouTube support in their capture devices.

You can already do that, it uploads the same as pictures off your mobile/camera except it goes under video instead of pictures. I agree that people shouldn't be fooled into thinking that the capture is 720p but they sure seem to be doing some kind of post filtering because in Beat Sketchers that they're not doing in EyeCreate because the IQ is noticably better.

Shifty Geezer

31-Oct-2010, 12:02

Yes, I mentioned that. Look at the PSEye's video feed in the device settings and it looks great, whereas in EyeCreate it's a mess. How does it compare in other Move games with embedded live feed?

patsu

31-Oct-2010, 17:45

I don't think they have time to post process live video feed for look.

EDIT:
You can already do that, it uploads the same as pictures off your mobile/camera except it goes under video instead of pictures.

Yap ! The mobile phone is treated like a digital camera.

The only real missing piece is network file access to read/share iTunes and WMP libraries.

Iron Tiger

01-Nov-2010, 16:29

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=43733&id=100000002767007Funny coincidence. The first thing I drew was a snail. The spiral came out almost by accident when I started playing with it, so instead of erasing and starting something new, I drew a whole snail.

patsu

01-Nov-2010, 19:40

A rather "technical" review of Lights Out from iWaggle:

9TpaOeeNvCI

Arwin

01-Nov-2010, 22:03

Funny coincidence. The first thing I drew was a snail. The spiral came out almost by accident when I started playing with it, so instead of erasing and starting something new, I drew a whole snail.

Yeah, started as an accident for me as well. :lol: It was the second or third thing for me, after the coffee/teacup, and a guitar I think.

Arwin

03-Nov-2010, 13:29

ProStroke Golf Demo on the store today in EU (presume US as well), as well as the free Painamotion add-on pack for Pain, which should have some fun Move supported game modes.

Shifty Geezer

03-Nov-2010, 14:56

Tried MAG a little bit last night. Initial experience is...scary! Control is very hard, harder than first learning a mouse or dual-stick. The take-home point is it isn't anything like a virtual gun. It's all relative positioning, meaning no aiming down the barrel of the Move. We had the Move in the official gun case but it was quickly apparent MAG isn't designed to work with that, as the controls need access to all the buttons, and the aiming doesn't benefit from it. Casual controls allows something of the experience I was hoping for, in that aiming is more point-and-shoot, although not being 1:1, you aren't pointing where you want to shoot with the Move, but moving the Move as if it were a mouse to position the aiming reticle. When you want to turn, it feels horrible. Also sniping becomes utterly stupid. The cursor position becomes a virtual thumbstick, using displacement from centre as a speed parameter for rotation. Thus you point at a target to the right and the aiming moves right, and continues to move right until you centre the centre the Move. By this time you've overshot, so have to aim left, and the camera swings left until you recenter. The whole thing feels very cumbersome and slow, as if the gun weighs a metric tonne and you've having to heavy it round and fight inertia. I can appreciate that mapping a scope view to a waggle controller is always going to be hard, and maybe there's no better way to do it, but I don't see MAG's implementation working at all well. Perhaps with reduced sensitivity and/or lots of practice, it'd be useable like a stick?

I can see convincing gamers of move controls in a shooter is going to be an uphill struggle. We're all used to dual-stick and can play a dual-stick game. Having to learn a new set of skills is more of a learning curve than most gamers want when they are looking for some downtime.

Arwin

03-Nov-2010, 15:22

iWaggle has pointed out this sniping scope bug also. I don't know if they do it because otherwise it would just be too easy or if there's some other reason, but right now most people agree it doesn't seem right. Everything else though seems a matter of adjustment, and I'm hearing a fair number of players say that once they got used to it they never want to go back. Ymmv of course!

Oh, and did you use the default settings, the settings iWaggle used or changed them to your custom settings? There's a few gotchas in terms of setting the bounding boxes and rotation speed to be aware of (I think some of the bounding box settings seem to work in reverse, for instance)

patsu

03-Nov-2010, 15:42

Yes, it's difficult for me to get used to also. I did see a few GAFFers claiming that they adjusted to Move fairly quickly and never looked back.

Yes, it's a learned skills. I am better now. Can win most encounters unless I'm fighting against members in the top clans, can jump and run easily (less confused), but overall still a b*tch for me. I prefer DS3 for the moment.

Yes, the default MAG controls is difficult. Use iWaggle's recommendation and adjust from there !

Player rotation - 70
Player pitch - 30
Gesture sensitivity - 100 (you need to thrust the Move forward to perform knife attack - don't worry this wont cause unintentional knifing)
Scope sensitivity - 100
Normal play - 60 / 40 / 80
Fixed iron sights - OFF (If you have this to On you are doing it wrong)
Iron sights - 0 / 10 / 40

EDIT: Yes, I think they should create a specialized gun case for MAG and Socom-like schemes.

Shifty, are you guys still in Valor ?

patsu

03-Nov-2010, 15:49

ProStroke Golf Demo on the store today in EU (presume US as well)

I played it with a few Golfers on Sunday.

The thing is if you're already familiar with Golf, the game shines. The controls is spot on, but be careful of where you point your stick. If you lift your club when you swing, you'll miss the ball. You may also touch the ball accidentally when you turn your head to talk to your friends. The most difficult part is probably adjusting the power of your swing. ^_^

If you're not familiar with Golf, don't expect the game to teach you. Practise with a real Golf club and come back for more !

My Golfer friends happen to like it. The other hassle is that you need to imagine where the ball is. If you lift your head and talk, you may forget the original ball position. We used a marker for that.

patsu

03-Nov-2010, 17:39

Dr. Marks on controller vs camera gameplay:
http://blog.us.playstation.com/2010/11/03/eyetoy-innovation-and-beyond/

We already knew the limitations of camera-based tracking. Intelligent app design can sidestep these limitations and emphasize its strength. Even if voice recognition doesn't work well in general, it can still light up people's imagination. It can be useful in specific context.

In the future, we will do things with and without controller. Better talk less, and get on with it. ^_^

patsu

03-Nov-2010, 23:59

Sony, your partners' and your own supply chain are not keeping up. My nearest Target and GameStop are out of standalone Move controllers again. The bundles are selling and stocked fine. At this time of the year, there should be no stock out. The shopping craze hasn't even started yet.

Fine. Do you want our de-valued US dollars or not ? :twisted:

AntShaw

04-Nov-2010, 05:34

I'm up to Champions Cup in Bocce in SC. Getting tough. Courses are starting to get ridiculous.

patsu

04-Nov-2010, 07:59

Wow, I suck at Bocce. My wife is much better than me.

patsu

04-Nov-2010, 17:49

A rather "technical" review of Lights Out from iWaggle:

9TpaOeeNvCI

iWaggle interviews Lights Out lead designer to answer the questions he uncovers in his own tests:
http://www.iwaggle3d.com/2010/11/interview-fight-lights-out-coldwood.html

Very good questions !

Why is there no transparency in The Fight or, alternatively, a first person view?

First person is tricky but interesting, and we hope to return to it in the future, but it will require a lot of time and research to get right. Unfortunately it's one of those things that's great in theory but less great in practice, and personally I don't think it has ever been done well. There's a lot of issues that people might not think about, such as motion sickness. It's not a FPS with some mild head bobbing, you're ducking, dodging, weaving, spinning, getting hit and sometimes falling. So a straight up first person view is simply not a viable option, and creating a hybrid solution is a beast. Also, most animations tend to look kind of weird when viewed from a first person perspective, so many exclusively first person games tweak the animations to look good from that angle only. We can't do that, since the game uses YOUR real life actions, and it has to look good in third person as well (since we have split screen and online play).

Regarding transparency, we discussed having it as an option. But we run at 60fps, and making the character see-through would have had a negative effect on that, especially as we have to retain our framerate in both split screen and in 3D modes. Covering the screen with a big semi-transparent object will also cause a lot of sorting issues, since we have lots of other transparent things in the scene, such as light streaks. Also, because blocking is (mostly) automatic, as long as you keep your guard up, it didn't affect gameplay that much when the opponent got obscured, so frame rate was a higher priority. 60fps is pretty much a requirement for a game this fast paced to work. However, we're constantly looking at further optimisations, so who knows what the future holds :)

Why is there no fixed distance between the fighters so that the player wouldn't accidentally miss the mark or "overthrow" his punches? And most importantly, given the obvious lack of haptic feedback, wouldn't a fixed distance allow for every punch you throw to actually fly on-screen rather than be "nullified" by early collision detection? This gives the impression your moves are not registered…

…

Finally, what's up with head tracking being so unreliable?

Headtracking requires good lighting conditions to work well, so it is turned off by default. You want bright and even lighting (but not too bright), without too many shadows. If your room is too dark, or you have flickering fluorescent lights, or lots of moving stuff in the image (curtains, cats, what have you) chances are headtracking won’t work. A nice mix of natural light and home lighting works well, and if you have bright surrounding in terms of how your home is decorated even better. However headtracking can never be 100% due to so many different parameters. Light, background, movement etc. Also, it is best to have a wall behind you, if the camera is staring at a massive space behind you there are too many details which can get mixed as a result.

When headtracking is disabled our own leaning and ducking system (which is based on a kind of average of where the Move controllers are) works beautifully as a compromise, so you don't really lose anything if headtracking doesn't work, you can still bob and weave all you want :) Basically, it's a case of "great if it works, and no harm done if it doesn't".

Arwin

04-Nov-2010, 18:48

I was going into shops looking for something to put my UMDs in since I don't use them enough to justify the shelf-space for the full boxes, and then I noticed The Fight and Singstar Dance already in the stores. I was a little surprised because amazon.de said something like 17 December!

I bought them both and tried SingStar Dance, and I quite like it so far. It'll take me a little while to get back into it and I'm very stiff (though the replays don't look so bad ;) ), and of course holding a Move controller isn't quite like something like Kinect, but other than that it feels good, and you get nice feedback when you're in the groove (matching the rhythm very closely). The dance routines seem high quality and really match the song very well (as was mentioned in an interview with the choreographer, he tried to put in as many moves that were also in the dance video as possible, stuff like that). Easy is already a bit of a challenge for me (not that you can fail), but I managed 7599 or so for Hey Ya, no doubt one of the easier songs.

As a nice bonus, the Ricky Martin song was already a youtube favorite of my 2,5yo son, and it was really nice (and cute as heck) to see him try to match the dance moves already! And of course all the full video recording stuff that was already in SingStar still applies and your dance is already included and can be saved, edited and put online and everything as usual. I saw one couple dancing to Lady Gaga in the online community video sharing already.

Look forward to The Fight. I was thinking that on-line, at least the complaint about the AI walking out of range doesn't hold up. I'm also interested to see how it feels that the game is running at 60fps. It seems to have come at a big cost (no transparancy) but still interested in seeing how it pans out.

Oh, and out of the several stores, this toy-store chain was the only one that actually had Move bundles available (apparently a bundle of them even, though I'm not sure as it did mention ask for them behind the counter, so they could be empty boxes) - they were sold out everywhere else still.

Shifty Geezer

04-Nov-2010, 19:35

Yes, the default MAG controls is difficult. Use iWaggle's recommendation and adjust from there !I was suggesting that, but we didn't have them to hand to try. We twigged about the aiming zones being back-to-front, and got point aiming to work, but I can see there's a lot of scope for tweaking, particularly slowing down the turn speed to beging with and then increase it as you adapt. Still, it's a seriously uphill struggle, and one I think you have to be a hardcore gamer to want to pursue with learning in the hopes of getting an upper hand. I was hoping for an intuitive, motion based interface that decreased the learning curve by making it what Joe Schmo would it expect it to be - run around with a gun and point at things to shoot them! I wasn't willing to invest the time and effort in developing delicate thumb controls to get headshots every time; I'm most certainly not that interested in taking some hours out to learn MAG as a shooter!

Shifty, are you guys still in Valor ?Yep, although I don't know if I destroyed my character before selling the game. Yes, it annoyed me that much! :p

patsu

04-Nov-2010, 20:27

I was suggesting that, but we didn't have them to hand to try. We twigged about the aiming zones being back-to-front, and got point aiming to work, but I can see there's a lot of scope for tweaking, particularly slowing down the turn speed to beging with and then increase it as you adapt. Still, it's a seriously uphill struggle, and one I think you have to be a hardcore gamer to want to pursue with learning in the hopes of getting an upper hand. I was hoping for an intuitive, motion based interface that decreased the learning curve by making it what Joe Schmo would it expect it to be - run around with a gun and point at things to shoot them! I wasn't willing to invest the time and effort in developing delicate thumb controls to get headshots every time; I'm most certainly not that interested in taking some hours out to learn MAG as a shooter!

Yes. It's for hardcore gamers.

The iWaggle settings makes a whole lot of difference though. The default setting was disorientating for me.

The other way for them to position Move is to add new/alternate capabilities (Better communication and strategizing tools).

Yep, although I don't know if I destroyed my character before selling the game. Yes, it annoyed me that much! :p

:lol: Yeah the game can be humiliating when the opponents are too good.
The strong clans would swarm right outside our spawn area and pick us off from many directions. :-(

Had a game like that a couple of nights ago. It was infuriating and yet I couldn't do a thing against them.

EDIT: Oh yes, the best way is to abandon the spawn point and focus on weaker enemies. ^_^

But if your side is outnumbered, the system may switch you back to the old spawn point automatically. So you'll have to override it each time.

Arwin

04-Nov-2010, 21:42

So I played a fair bit of The Fight now, and so far I'm actually quite pleased with it. The camera is only an issue in so far as that it is sometimes hard to see if you are doing a good body shot, although your opponent and sound does give you good feedback on that. The replay of my first match (which has decent options like viewing from all angles, pausing forwarding, etc.) showed that my body shots were way too low. Also, since my 'wing-span' is almost 2 meters, for calibration I sort of have to lean back if I were to do it properly, but you can fake it a little. This is one of the first games that gives an estimate on your size though based on two calibration moves.

The head-tracking doesn't work for me, as more or less expected. I may try again during the day, but the developers themselves basically indicated that they couldn't really do it for this game, also because of if you defend properly, your head will be mostly hidden (though I think from there you can probably still guess where the head is, if you take it further).

The training room is satisfying for me - I understand what I need to do (on the heavy bag do one-two's, and occasionally hit the red circle area when it pops up), using the movement of the bag properly and not missing - once you start missing, you fail out. It's a good exercise also for improving your spatial awareness. Same goes for the speed training, which realistically requires you to maintain a rhythm that suits the way the ball bounces, and you have a meter that stays in the green as long as you manage to keep the ball going. There's no faking it here, and once you get the skill down (I got it down very quickly at a pretty high pace) it simply relies on you to get tired. And trust me, you do! I still feel my arms, I think I lasted almost 4 minutes, and that netted me 13 skill points I could use on my fighter.

The walking around using the Move as a kind of joystick while pressing the Action/Move button (which you can conveniently use either hand for) works good and I look forward to more games using this for free roaming while keeping full 1:1 control for both hands available.

I also went online and there was no-one to play with yet, which is not a big surprise I think. However, the game gives you an opponent that doesn't defend himself while you wait, which is incredibly satisfying for just experimenting with all sorts of bloody hits. I do think though that this game has some very good potential for online - we'll have to wait and see how it pans out.

While they say they sacrificed a transparent character for 60fps, I have to say that the game often doesn't feel like 60fps - I think there are some real slowdowns occasionally.

Finally, Trejo as your trainer/instructor is a nice touch. He does a decent job, much better than most nonsense in videogames, and its fun to see him talk about/hold Move controllers and diss the alternative control scheme where you use a sixaxis for the second hand. :lol:

The balance for the career mode is interesting, in that you have to fight to make money, and you need the money to do trainings that can net you skill-points to upgrade your character with. This balances the game, but whomever can do the training stuff better will faster upgrade their character, which is interesting.

So far, my impressions of this game are quite favorable. We'll have to wait and see how it lasts.

patsu

04-Nov-2010, 22:18

Is the Fighting AI good ?

Also, what songs are in SingStar Dance ?

Arwin

04-Nov-2010, 23:00

Is the Fighting AI good ?

Too early to tell after basically one career fight! Your stats definitely are important though.

Also, what songs are in SingStar Dance ?

http://blog.us.playstation.com/2010/09/16/singstar-dance-track-list/

*N Sync – Bye Bye Bye
Black Eyed Peas – Shut Up
Blondie – Heart Of Glass
Chris Brown – With You
Cyndi Lauper – Girls Just Wanna Have Fun
Diana Ross and The Supremes – Baby Love
Gloria Gaynor – I Will Survive
Gossip – Standing In The Way Of Control
Gwen Stefani – What You Waiting For?
Jamiroquai – Cosmic Girl
KC & The Sunshine Band – That’s The Way (I Like It)
Kid Cudi vs Crookers – Day ‘N’ Nite
Kool And The Gang – Celebration
La Roux – Bulletproof
Lady Gaga – Poker Face
MC Hammer – U Can’t Touch This
New Kids On The Block – Hangin Tough
Outkast – Hey Ya!
Paula Abdul – Straight Up
Pitbull – I Know You Want Me (Calle Ocho)
Reel 2 Real feat. The Mad Stuntman – I Like To Move It
Ricky Martin – Living La Vida Loca
Run DMC vs Jason Nevins – It’s Like That
Salt N Pepa – Push It
Shaggy – Boombastic
Sir Mix A Lot – Baby Got Back
Soulja Boy – Crank That
The Backstreet Boys – Everybody (Backstreet’s Back)
The Jackson 5 – I Want You Back
The Pussycat Dolls – Don’t Cha

Shifty Geezer

05-Nov-2010, 09:18

:lol: Yeah the game can be humiliating when the opponents are too good.It wasn't that. I could play quite well near the end often coming in the upper quarter of scorers and achieving some useful objectives. It's that the game was, IMO, fundamentally broken. But I covered all that in the MAG thread!

Arwin

06-Nov-2010, 01:32

Thanks for the impressions, I'll be picking this bad boy up in the states next week.

Ok, had another session. First note of business though - I set up my fighter with 23 points for technique, almost nothing for heart and chin, and 10,7 and 6 for strength, speed and stamina. I think the 23 points for technique were a bit much - Trejo mentioned something like 'I see were going for 'experimental' here'. :D

I found out quickly in my second match though in the first set of fights that adding some chin and heart are worth it. Basically you'll want to have at least everything at 10 as soon as possible, and take it from there. After 10, it starts taking more points to upgrade your fighter (first 2 ability points for 1 rating point, then 3, etc.). So I used my ability points to set everything at 10 at least.

This of course invited doing some more practice. This time I went for target practice first, which is the type of sparring you do with someone who has punch gloves for you to bash into, as you've seen in a tonne of boxing flicks. It's actually very good, and should be one of the first things you do to test whether or not you're being tracked right and you understand how to control your fighter. I found out for instance that the way I was hitting my left hook, I was reaching out of the camera range (because I also lean forward a little), which basically broke it. So this exercise quickly got me understanding the limits of my field of view (remember, my 'wing-span' is 2m, and I'm standing at less than 1.6m from the TV with my calves pressed into our couch - I actually placed the camera a little upwards and back behind the TV this time so I could actualy reach out my arms completely which just about fits exactly into the field of view).

So once I got that figured, it was actually pretty easy to do this exercise. For as far as I played it, it asks for uppercuts, forward jabs, and hooks. You don't have to hit them hard, and it doesn't really matter with which arm you for instance manage to hit the glove (the forward jabs are easily reachable with both arms for me). It feels good. So far I'm really digging the exercises. If you get these type of hits down, you can win a fight at least in theory. ;) It's good to be aware of at least these types of hits, though if you want to win a fight you also need to work the body, which not much of the exercises pay attention to so far. It is a fairly easy excercise, so good for earning some ability points too. The first exercise which I tried again also (the punching bag), remains a tough one, though I still enjoy it a lot and the physics on them are cool - I just wish you could play it without a fail-state.

I then (after losing my fight again) proceeded to do the other exercises as well. Endurance asks me to fight one opponent after the other, and is hard to keep up with long enough to score points (at least I couldn't do it after two or three times, but I did at least pass a bunch of rounds after the first attempt). You have to stick close to your fighter you lose, so you're going to track your fighter if he moves away from you. Finally, I went to basic sparring, which is actually good and a place that you should spend some time in - you need to at least be able to take this guy down on default settings, and then you can basically measure your efficiency by how many calories you burnt. For instance, after a few tries I got him down from 29 to 14 calories.

After last fight, for I'm not sure what anymore (but it tells you - I think it's actually for not doing the finishing move on him when he was reeling, which gave me the 'Saint' achievement), I also earned a first 'dirty' move, a hammer fist. Trejo explains how it works, and it's pretty good - however, since you're awarded more for fighting clean, it does make you only want to use it if you're getting desperate (at least for me). Now for the second fight, the setup was different - you start with an 80$ counter, and the faster you beat him, the more of that cash is left for you to take. However, crucially, you also earn cash for hard hits and such - for instance, a hard hit gives you $5. So you usually take enough away from a fight to at least heal yourself and do some more training. On the other hand, each battle you lose takes away rating points and after three losses I was back to zero (so again, exercise early, exercise often).

So when you're preparing for this fight, what's the key thing here is that you time your shots, and spend your energy wisely. Look for a good opportunity and land one or two hits. When he's reeling a little you can get a few more hits in, but your energy for hitting runs out fast enough so you'll want to go back into cover and position. When he's defending his face and or is close to you, go for body blows and if he goes out of cover when he's still close, time for an upper-cut. Most of this stuff makes a lot of sense, though I would have expected perhaps some more training on boxing technique. And I think the earlier you make yourself comfortable with walking and moving (dodging left and right) around, the better.

Also, when you sustain injuries, you have to heal them or pay the price in terms of shorter stamina in the next fight.

Right now this game is not easy. This is not a 'casual' game, unless maybe you're a casual boxer. But so far I'm enjoying it a lot and can heartily recommend it if a game that forces you to really box AND train (training is the only way to improve your stats, after all), it's worth it.

So I managed to win my second fight, and this game me another award that gives me a money boost for winning against players ranked higher, and a silver trophy. This was for beating someone who is ranked more than 50%, so that either means that there's an advantage to losing a bunch of times first (kills your ranking to zero), or perhaps I've picked my second fight unwisely.

I'm going to bed now happily exhausted, and so far the game seems to be what I hoped it would be. Will keep you guys posted if I make more progress this weekend. And if someone wants to try this online, let me know. ;)

Billy Idol

06-Nov-2010, 07:35

Arwin

06-Nov-2010, 09:59

Right now the framerate feels just barely sufficient to keep up, though I expect the game is fairly physics heavy and its framerate also matters. I think fighting games do really need 60fps to be honest. Of course they are also doing 3D, but now that I have the game I'm sure they needed the 60. Still at times the game feels slower so I hope someone does a proper framerate analysis. Again, it could be the physics.

Ironically, so far the lack of a transparent player isn't bothering me at all. Perhaps I don't know what I'm missing though but seeing your own arms at the very least is crucial. But I think a transparent body could definitely help.

Shifty Geezer

06-Nov-2010, 10:35

The head-tracking doesn't work for me, as more or less expected. I may try again during the day, but the developers themselves basically indicated that they couldn't really do it for this game,...If they used the same background removal tech of the KungFu game, lighting shouldn't be an issue, unless your room really is terribly dark. I dont know how much processing overhead that would have though.

Arwin

06-Nov-2010, 13:17

If they used the same background removal tech of the KungFu game, lighting shouldn't be an issue, unless your room really is terribly dark. I dont know how much processing overhead that would have though.

In my case I get excellent rating on two out of three factors, but I have a really complex set of posters behind me, and that trips it up.

Shifty Geezer

06-Nov-2010, 13:34

onQ

06-Nov-2010, 17:09

Noob question incoming:

why needs The Fight to be a 60Hz game??

from what I saw, it is rather slow paced, thus super fast reactions are not needed (nor possible)!

I rather have a transparent character than 60Hz in this game, right?!?

Because when you are dealing with motion controls 60FPS is really important because you want the controls to feel smooth and not chunky

onQ

06-Nov-2010, 17:11

See, that sort of static background should be 'easily' removed from the video source. I believe Kung Fu Live uses the Virtual Air Guitar Company's proprietary library (what the company is built around) and maybe there's nothing similar in the standard PS3 SDK. At which point, Sony should buy it!

I been thinking the same thing since I 1st seen the Kung Fu Live website where they was talking about the tech used to make the game.

Arwin

07-Nov-2010, 00:28

Today a lot more working out. I got a few training sessions in where the trainer actually didn't diss me as the training ended, but sort of nodded a 'good job'. One of these was target practice, which is becoming a favorite quickly. It's actually making me a better fighter, making different types of hits for my forward side and my backward side (standing left/front) to reach the targets. It also clearly notes how well you land your punch and if you've got some power behind it, as this influences how much is added to your 'continue' meter (or whatever it is called).

However, this session I had messed around with my camera placement a bit and also started leaning forward a little more, and this time I started getting a lot of calibration issues - whenever my arms go out of range too much/too often, one of my arm would get out of calibration and basically hang back or something like that, rendering me unable to use that arm efficiently anymore. Specifically haymaker type hits can cause this. I've had to work on this issue for a bit before I could get on and beat my fourth and fifth opponent.

The names for the first set of fighters by the way seem to indicate what kind of stat will be attacked. For instance, Glass Jaw means that you'll have an opponent who deals hard damange, and you'll need to have your Chin stats up sufficiently to make it (or fight really, really well of course). Because I got annoyed at not beating a certain opponent I kept playing for more than the 90 minutes I wanted to do max, and now I'm totally soaked and knackered. If you're looking for a game to give you a workout, this is definitely one ... :)

onQ

07-Nov-2010, 14:49

In my case I get excellent rating on two out of three factors, but I have a really complex set of posters behind me, and that trips it up.

maybe they should have released the game with a headband with AR code on it like the cards from Eye of Judgement & the card that use to come with Eyepet that way it would know how far your head is from your fist at all times and wouldn't lose calibration.

patsu

07-Nov-2010, 16:31

Nah, if the game wants to track the players' head, the system needs better tech to perceive the user. The card is rather limited in application. Or they can add emitter to 3D glasses, and reduce their weight at the same time (so that they can be fitted to, and like, normal eye glasses).

Further out, more reliable facial expression analysis and especially retina tracking can be very useful too.

patsu

08-Nov-2010, 10:58

Time Crisis review form iWaggle:

Part 1:
5amuJQk_BXM

Part 2:
HpnYkXrP8So

Arwin

08-Nov-2010, 15:41

patsu

08-Nov-2010, 16:43

A few new PS Move stats:
http://blog.us.playstation.com/2010/11/08/playstation-move-by-the-numbers/

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4003/5156697529_457d316f24_z.jpg

Shifty Geezer

08-Nov-2010, 20:19

Bigduo209

08-Nov-2010, 21:12

I love my PS3 and hope Sony gains some success from the Move, but this stuff isn't fooling anybody. MS spent half a billion dollars and targeted every other demographic outside the usual 14-25 male audience.

If Sony wants to make PS Move move of the shelves, they can't show some statistics and a PS Eye ad on the internet, or an occasional Kevin Butler TV commercial. They need to be smarter with their advertising and increase the budget a bit. Sure MS may have more money, but making some of these dumb marketing cost them.

Oh and they should've had some more interesting games out by now. I may not a give damn about Kinect's Dance Central, but the novelty of it will be eaten up by the casuals, and the PS Move needs one really strong game to rely on until better games are released next.

Scott_Arm

08-Nov-2010, 21:15

patsu

09-Nov-2010, 05:43

Some useless stats. Interest doubled since May - could be doubled from 1 in 1000 to 1 in 500! The 30% are female seems a bit worrying too versus female interest in other motion platforms. That suggests the library isn't appealing, or something.

They are not useless. :-)

One can see both vendors using different marketing platforms. Sony leans more towards tactical interactive marketing, while MS uses more traditional, mainstream marketing (Mostly above-the-line TV advertising).

When an organization uses interactive marketing, they usually track responses and stats in a more fine-grained and more real-time manner. In interactive marketing, the marketer would spent a very controlled budget to maximize the sales. The medium -- in this case, the Internet -- enables them to track their marketing $$$ spent carefully.

The marketer will review these stats and adjust their campaigns along to way to grow their base.

e.g., The PS Blog linked to their social marketing effort in October:
http://www.yoursocialweb.com/in-the-news/socialmediabattlexboxvsplaystation

This is one of the reasons I mentioned Sony is still using the same earn-as-you-go, profit-first strategy. Xbox continues to use their market-share-first approach. Their corporate cultures and business models are opposite to each other (Unless Kutaragi runs Sony. :-)). MS has a cash cow software business, while Sony increasingly leverages on its risky content business with multiple CE device access.

Which marketing approach is more effective ? If you have a lot of cash and a good product, MS's shock-and-awe approach would gain traction faster and bigger. I don't think Sony is willing to invest so much up-front. Hence they adopt interactive marketing, which is usually more efficient. They did put out some TV ads. But I think they should have consolidated the message, rather than let individual countries and regions ran wild with it.

The real difference is in the product conceptualization and design. In this area, I think Sony missed the mark big time. Have been complaining that the Move user experience is piece-meal, and uninspiring (just feels like the Wii last few years ago ! ^_^). The management only sees "precision" in Move. They have good demoes and great technical concepts, but none of them made it to mainstream use cases (XMB and apps). You practically have to dig into the games to see the exciting stuff.

From the outside, it looks like a failure of the development team and marketing team collaboration. They still work separately even though Shuhei touted cross organization collaboration (That's only backend development). The engineering people have not worked with the strategic marketing people yet.

EDIT: I think this is the part where I miss Phil Harrison -- the product visionary.

patsu

09-Nov-2010, 05:49

I love my PS3 and hope Sony gains some success from the Move, but this stuff isn't fooling anybody. MS spent half a billion dollars and targettted every other demographic outside the usual 14-25 male audience.

If Sony wants to make PS Move move of the shelves, they can't show some statistics and a PS Eye ad on the internet, or an occasional Kevin Butler TVcommercial. They need to be smarter with their advertising and increase the budget a bit. Sure MS may have more money, but making some of these dumb marketing cost them.

Sony is being smart in a different way (marketing efficiency). I don't think those stats aim to fool anyone. It's a work-in-progress update. If you're a marketing junkie, you'd track those; but they will need to provide the numbers regularly first. :-)

Oh and they should've had some more interesting games out by now. I may not a give damn about Kinect's Dance Central, but the novelty of it will be eaten up by the casuals, and the PS Move needs one really strong game to rely on until better games are released next.

Yes, the product experience and vision is the one that falls down this time. The marketing is lost because they don't have a central product vision. Afterall, "precision" is the only thing their top management highlighted in interviews.

patsu

09-Nov-2010, 05:53

When I was shopping around today I saw that most of the stores I went in had big 3DTV setups with the PS3 in their television sections, but pretty much just stuffed the Move in with the PS3 accessories. Has Sony chosen to focus on 3D rather than motion gaming this holiday season? Maybe there is better money by driving sales in the 3DTV business, but it seems like accessories are always a nice way to turn a big profit, and I'm surprised there wasn't a heavier in-store presence. I don't have any television service, so I have no idea if they're flooding the tv with ads and feel they don't need the big displays, in prime locations, in the big box stores.

Nope. Different divisions are pushing different things. Heck, they also have Internet TV that are not 3DTV (yet ?). :-)

It seems there are a lot of games, and the stores are well stocked with Move bundles and controllers.

Depends on where you live. Move should be well stocked to prepare for the holiday season. They are moving quickly in some areas (May be areas where Internet penetration is high, where their interactive marketing can reach more effectively). Even if the products seem to be in-stock, it does not mean they don't move at all. The supply chain should be working to replenish them. I agree they should be able to sell faster had Sony integrated and refined the experience into XMB and useful apps.

patsu

09-Nov-2010, 06:49

I created an OT by the way on GAF for this game, because I like it a lot, and I think many others will too. While I don't know that many others buy this game (we'll find out later this week when it's out in the US), most people that come to the OT and play the game seem as happy with the game as I am ...

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=24272749#post24272749

http://blog.us.playstation.com/2010/11/08/machete-molds-you-into-a-badass-in-the-fight-lights-out/

D2CbTMX0NJI

Am a little surprised at the production value.

I may not get this game though. Looks too violent to let my kid see me play.

Will look out for SingStar Dance instead. The song list includes Lady Gaga's Poker Face. It's my wife's and son's favorite.

Shifty Geezer

09-Nov-2010, 10:08

They are not useless. :-)Well I don't kow the context of the advert, but the actual figure is meaningless to anyone who understands them. Sure, it probably sounds to the masses like interesting growth, but without any idea how large the interest was in real numbers in May, doubling that gives no idea on the idea of real interest. Could be small enough figures as to be statistical noise. I mean, a company that starts up on the Mondaay and employ s asecond person on the Tuesday can claim to be the fastest growing company in the country, doubling in size every day, but it's a silly measure. The "60% of interested parties already own a Wii" could mean a large amount of people, or that most PS3 owners don't care and it's only those who own PS3 and Wii who are interested in Move, making that a pretty small amount. 25% are over 35, meaning it's something for the 'young folk'. Half are parents - lots of people at the specificed average age of 28 are parents; doesn't mean it was bought for the family or suitable for the family.

To me it's a list of hints, conveying an impression of diverse users and popularity, but the actual content is very wishy-washy. And they fact they can't present a strong message and are instead using a wishy-washy message, just as politicians do with their spin-doctoring, suggests the reality is quite the opposite of what they were wanting to suggest. Move is being bought by young male core gamers to play their mainstream games and the wider appeal of Move is lacking.

patsu

09-Nov-2010, 10:31

There have been surveys on Move and Kinect in the same time period. The increase in interests and intent to buy are usually expressed in %. The more $$$ you spend to reach the audience, the more customers you get as a function of the %. You can't express them in absolute numbers (They probably surveyed hundreds and thousands people but they are not the only customers). :-)

As for the composition, it helps them decide where and how to market Move and games later. It's an on-going exercise.

Shifty Geezer

09-Nov-2010, 12:38

As for the composition, it helps them decide where and how to market Move and games later. It's an on-going exercise.Sure, but why publicise your monitoring data?

Arwin

09-Nov-2010, 14:06

Am a little surprised at the production value.

It's not as great as that video makes it look, but it's not outright bad either. ;)

I may not get this game though. Looks too violent to let my kid see me play.

I never play this game in front of my kid either!

Will look out for SingStar Dance instead. The song list includes Lady Gaga's Poker Face. It's my wife's and son's favorite.

Living La Vie Da Loca was already a youtube favorite of my son (of course those favorites are filtered by my wife's tastes because she picks those ;) )

Scott_Arm

09-Nov-2010, 14:59

Nope. Different divisions are pushing different things. Heck, they also have Internet TV that are not 3DTV (yet ?). :-)

Depends on where you live. Move should be well stocked to prepare for the holiday season. They are moving quickly in some areas (May be areas where Internet penetration is high, where their interactive marketing can reach more effectively). Even if the products seem to be in-stock, it does not mean they don't move at all. The supply chain should be working to replenish them. I agree they should be able to sell faster had Sony integrated and refined the experience into XMB and useful apps.

Yeah, I didn't mean to suggest that it wasn't. I'm just saying the games and accessories were well stocked, but they were buried amongst all the cheap garbage peripherals. I didn't see any signs or posters advertising it. They were just lumped in with everything else. There may have been a poster for it at EB Games, but not in Best Buy, Futureshop, Walmart. I just found it interesting in contrast to the very big 3D TV display from Sony that showcased their TV as well as the PS3.

patsu

09-Nov-2010, 18:30

Sure, but why publicise your monitoring data?

To engage the gamers since they/we seem to like numbers ?
http://blog.us.playstation.com/2010/11/08/playstation-move-by-the-numbers/

It looks like Sony intend to publish more stats later this week.

I never play this game in front of my kid either!

Yeah, but he sticks to me when I get home. "What should we do next ? What should we do next ? Play with me." ^_^

Yeah, I didn't mean to suggest that it wasn't. I'm just saying the games and accessories were well stocked, but they were buried amongst all the cheap garbage peripherals. I didn't see any signs or posters advertising it. They were just lumped in with everything else. There may have been a poster for it at EB Games, but not in Best Buy, Futureshop, Walmart. I just found it interesting in contrast to the very big 3D TV display from Sony that showcased their TV as well as the PS3.

I don't know about your GameStop but the one over here has a special LCD display showing Move demoes on the game shelves. The Move games are right below the display.

"Cheap" setup is indeed one of the advantages of Move. Otherwise, why would people buy them just to try out ? ^_^

For Best Buy, Walmart, etc., based on how Sony communicate (and the patched games to support Move), I don't think Sony is ready for casual gaming yet. They will focus on core gamers first. For casuals, they already have Blu-ray as a draw -- in the mean time.

patsu

09-Nov-2010, 19:41

Lights Out, SingStar Dance, and Sly Collection released today in US:
http://blog.us.playstation.com/2010/11/09/triple-threat-sly-collection-the-fight-lights-out-singstar-dance-hit-ps3-today/

rabidrabbit

09-Nov-2010, 20:35

Scott_Arm

09-Nov-2010, 21:07

"Cheap" setup is indeed one of the advantages of Move. Otherwise, why would people buy them just to try out ? ^_^
.

Yeah, I wasn't suggesting the quality was cheap. I've never tried it or handled one of them. What I meant was it was buried amongst a whole lot of garbage accessories, like third party controllers, cables, coolers, stands, Blu-Ray remotes. The move peripherals didn't have their own distinct display to make them noticeable.

Rotmm

09-Nov-2010, 21:10

Sure, but why publicise your monitoring data?

Because by publicising such data, you're giving 'soundbites' that the gaming press, websites and blogs are likely to pick up and reprint, effectively getting some free publicity and further embedding Move into the consciousness of gamers out there.

Additionally, there are many consumers out there who will buy into something because it is, or appears to be, popular. I had no desire to purchase Move, but somehow allowed myself to be pulled aboard the hype train and a couple of weeks after release, when my subconscious had decided that it was a successful product, ended up picking up a starter pack and game. Sadly, my PSTripple died the true death only a couple of days later so I haven't really been able to make a decision on it myself. But a sale is a sale.

Arwin

09-Nov-2010, 21:23

The Fight was supposed to release in EU already the November 3rd, but I haven't been able to find a single copy anywhere.
I'd really like to buy this game, hopefully this week there'll be some copies in stores here too.

Really? I hope that's a good sign - I bought it on release day in Europe. :)

Singstar Dance got a Eurogamer 7/10 review by the way.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2010-11-08-singstar-dance-review

patsu

09-Nov-2010, 23:41

Yeah, I wasn't suggesting the quality was cheap. I've never tried it or handled one of them. What I meant was it was buried amongst a whole lot of garbage accessories, like third party controllers, cables, coolers, stands, Blu-Ray remotes. The move peripherals didn't have their own distinct display to make them noticeable.

That would depend on the stores. The stores I went to have dedicated sections for PS3 peripherals. There are indeed all sorts of attachments, charger, nav con around the Move controller.

I just found out that the Gamestop nearest me has given up on standalone Move controllers. The empty spaces are all replaced by Move bundles now. :lol:

Because by publicising such data, you're giving 'soundbites' that the gaming press, websites and blogs are likely to pick up and reprint, effectively getting some free publicity and further embedding Move into the consciousness of gamers out there.

Additionally, there are many consumers out there who will buy into something because it is, or appears to be, popular. I had no desire to purchase Move, but somehow allowed myself to be pulled aboard the hype train and a couple of weeks after release, when my subconscious had decided that it was a successful product, ended up picking up a starter pack and game. Sadly, my PSTripple died the true death only a couple of days later so I haven't really been able to make a decision on it myself. But a sale is a sale.

That's true too, but I don't think the intention is to fool consumers. You can tell from this thread that their published numbers just generated more discussions amongst gamers.