View Full Version : More Texture Filtering
Dave Baumann
22-Jul-2003, 10:46
Its "Guess what generated these" time...
http://www.beyond3d.com/news/images/filt1.jpg
http://www.beyond3d.com/news/images/filt2.jpg
http://www.beyond3d.com/news/images/filt3.jpg
Still stuck with an R8500 & a Ti4200, so these are wild guesses of course :)
As the pictures appear:
R3xx (good and fuzzy) - GF FX (quick progression, short transitions)
GF FX
R3xx (longer transitions)
My guess...
...GF4Ti with 44.03 drivers.
First pic demonstrates that it's not doing trilinear filtering of detail textures in UT2003 Quality mode, which is the interesting piece of news Dave wants us to note. Second and third I'm not positive about, but I'm guessing Performance and Quality (with no AF), demonstrating that Performance is almost-bilinear and Quality is trilinear...with the exception of UT2003 detail textures.
Can we turn this one into a contest with 9800 Pros as the prizes too? :)
Why aren't they getting the same mip map level?
is it a LOD Bias problem?
Dave Baumann
22-Jul-2003, 12:50
The LOD differences are because UT2003 has different LOD biases for the default and detail textures, and the drivers are interpretting these correctly (which is a clue).
K.I.L.E.R
22-Jul-2003, 12:58
Dave impies that the stuffed up pics are nVIDIA's and the good ones are Ati's or vice versa. Thanks for the clue Dave.
Dave Baumann
22-Jul-2003, 12:59
All images are from the same board.
Dave Baumann
22-Jul-2003, 13:03
For reference, here' one from the "Balanced" (performance) mode taken from our NV30 preview:
http://www.beyond3d.com/previews/nvidia/gffxu/filtering/bal_1x.gif
K.I.L.E.R
22-Jul-2003, 13:05
Let's see:
filt2.jpg: bilinear
filt3.jpg: trilinear
Whoops - sorry KILER, pressed the wrong button. Didn't mean to kill your message!! :? DB.
How many guesses do we get then? :D
NV30 [Added] / NV31 / NV35
UT2003 done with 43.45 drivers (not the "evil" 44.03 drivers), varying texture level (dunno what exactly to expect, so I'll just copy Dave B here)
AF shot 1: Aggressive mode
AF shot 2: Balanced mode
[Added] Would there be any way of distinguishing the different NV3x's?
nv35
same driver
trilinear on texture 0,
"improved bilinear" on detail texture
(or the other way around)
Gee Dave, I did not realize how much of a difference one texture can make ie in that UT test level I thought you migh see some difference...but thats a lot more than "some" :)
Dave Baumann
22-Jul-2003, 14:02
Both are Trilinear, this (http://www.beyond3d.com/reviews/ati/r350/texture/1x_perf.gif) is what Bilinear would look like.
I've got it! All are NV3x. The first is UT2003, Quality, no AF, demonstrating the near-bilinear on the detail textures.
The third is Quality, no AF, with Xmas' filtering test tunnel.
The second is Quality, no AF, with Xmas' filtering test tunnel.....
......hacked to trip the driver's application detection of UT2003!!!!!
:shock: :shock: :shock:
(Man, if I got this right I'm not settling for anything less than the Shuttle PC plus the 9800.)
Dave Baumann
22-Jul-2003, 14:31
No. These are from a 9600.
The point I'm demonstrating is that ATI do have a similar feature to NVIDIA's Bi/Tilinear mix functionality. I can't find it enabled under R300/R350 but RV350 does have this under DirectX (of course, there was also a less advanced form in R200). Anyone with a 9600 can play around with the texture preference slider and it will do virtually exactly the same thing as NVIDIA's does, except if you have it at high quality it will alway do full Trilinear (at least, AFAIK - I've not seen an instance where it doesn't as yet).
So when [H] concludes "NVIDIA has seemingly found a way to do less work doing Trilinear Filtering than ATI while producing an IQ that easily comparable with ATI's. (http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NTAwLDQ=)", with the 9600 this isn't the case, since it probable that a similar IQ level can be found.
Brent - in your upcoming 9600 review will you be investigating the texture quality slider under D3D to see if you can get a similar UT2003 quality to NVIDIA and then benchmarking them that way?
No. These are from a 9600.
Golly. And those AF shots look so much more like the NV30 shots than the R350 shots. All done by a texture preference slider?
I guess it makes my condition of "assuming the R3xx hardware is capable of mimicking NV3x behaviour" (different thread) always true.
I fiddled around with these settings in D3D AF tester a week ago, and I saw the same result. 9600pro and Cat 3.4.
I must say, that the NV30 AF test Dave put up for reference looks much worse than the comparable 9600 one, at a closer look.
I don´t know if this has anything to do with the one taken from D3D and the other from OGL though.
No. These are from a 9600.
The point I'm demonstrating is that ATI do have a similar feature to NVIDIA's Bi/Tilinear mix functionality. I can't find it enabled under R300/R350 but RV350 does have this under DirectX (of course, there was also a less advanced form in R200). Anyone with a 9600 can play around with the texture preference slider and it will do virtually exactly the same thing as NVIDIA's does, except if you have it at high quality it will alway do full Trilinear (at least, AFAIK - I've not seen an instance where it doesn't as yet).
I think the bi-tri mix is perfectly OK for any IHV when it's restricted to a "performance" setting in which the end user is aware he's running in a performance IQ mode. The thing about Det behavior in UT2K3 that I dislike is the fact that even when the application calls for full trilinear the Dets don't give it--but provide a "performance blend" instead.
So when [H] concludes "NVIDIA has seemingly found a way to do less work doing Trilinear Filtering than ATI while producing an IQ that easily comparable with ATI's. (http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NTAwLDQ=)", with the 9600 this isn't the case, since it probable that a similar IQ level can be found.
What I object to about the [H] statement above is that it characterizes the behavior of the Dets running UT2K3 as though it was universally applicable to all 3D games. In a game other than UT2K3, a game in which the Dets actually provide full trilinear support, are the Dets "doing less work" than the Cats? I can't see how that would be the case, since in that event the Dets would be doing full trilinear just like the Cats. Sure, in UT2K3 the Dets are doing less work because the drivers are doing less trilinear filtering--and so performance is better. What is remarkable about that? Brent...?
Myrmecophagavir
22-Jul-2003, 19:53
I think the bi-tri mix is perfectly OK for any IHV when it's restricted to a "performance" setting in which the end user is aware he's running in a performance IQ mode.
Does that include ATI's "Quality" AF control panel setting, which only does trilinear filtering on the first texture stage?
The thing about Det behavior in UT2K3 that I dislike is the fact that even when the application calls for full trilinear the Dets don't give it--but provide a "performance blend" instead.
So the same could be said for the Cats...
I think any such forms of optmization are okay as long as the drivers provide the user with the option of turning them off. The reported lack of an "application preference" option in NVidia drivers is unacceptable.
Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.
22-Jul-2003, 20:20
I think the bi-tri mix is perfectly OK for any IHV when it's restricted to a "performance" setting in which the end user is aware he's running in a performance IQ mode.
Does that include ATI's "Quality" AF control panel setting, which only does trilinear filtering on the first texture stage?
The thing about Det behavior in UT2K3 that I dislike is the fact that even when the application calls for full trilinear the Dets don't give it--but provide a "performance blend" instead.
So the same could be said for the Cats...
But ATI have never hidden this or lied about it. It only happens when quality mode is forced from the control panel. When a UT2K asks for trilinear directly, it gets trilinear from the ATI card.
With NV3x, when UT2K directly requests trilinear, it gets a bilinear hack which Nvidia is calling quality. This only happens under the new drivers for UT2K, so that Nvidia can trumpet an increase in performance, without telling anyone it happens on that one single game only because they hack down the filtering quality on the sly.
Like the original 3Dmark cheat, Nvidia hacks out a faster shader that uses lower precision and produces inferior quality in order to keep the speed up, while ATI reorder instructions to make a faster shader without compromising image quality.
The two companies and their respect for their customers are world's apart . :roll:
Bambers
22-Jul-2003, 20:21
I can't find it enabled under R300/R350 but RV350 does have this under DirectX (of course, there was also a less advanced form in R200).
What about opengl? my 8500 seemed to be a bit sneaky wrt that.
If a game had colour mipmaps on then it would look all smooth, if they were off (at the default 'quality' tex pref setting of opengl) the mipmaps could be seen. and it seemed to be doing a bi/tri mix similar to the ones in d3d but more extreme that the high performance setting of d3d.
I could confirm this in both the opengl AF test and q3.
Does that include ATI's "Quality" AF control panel setting, which only does trilinear filtering on the first texture stage?
Certainly, because the preferred method of control is through the application, and the ATi drivers provide full trilinear in UT2K3 when it's asked for by the game. People often forget that the control panel settings for these features are there to force them in applications which don't allow them to be set from within. Ideally, all 3D games would let you set these things from within them and the control panel would never have to be set to anything other than "Application Preference."
So the same could be said for the Cats... Nope, when Trilinear is set from within the game you get full trilinear with the Cats--can't get full trilinear with these Dets in UT2K3 from either the control panel or from within the game. That's the problem.
digitalwanderer
22-Jul-2003, 21:57
Nope, when Trilinear is set from within the game you get full trilinear with the Cats--can't get full trilinear with these Dets in UT2K3 from either the control panel or from within the game. That's the problem.
No, no; it's not a problem....it's a feature... :roll: ;)
K.I.L.E.R
22-Jul-2003, 22:56
I knew it guys. It was an R3xx chip. :D
Dave, do I get a cookie mailed to me or something?
Anyway Dave, where in hte living blazes did you find the registry enteries for the setting?
Nope, when Trilinear is set from within the game you get full trilinear with the Cats--can't get full trilinear with these Dets in UT2K3 from either the control panel or from within the game. That's the problem.
No, no; it's not a problem....it's a feature... :roll: ;)
uh-oh, now Microsoft is gonna sue Nvidia for patent infringement! :wink:
One member of Muropaketti (http://www.muropaketti.com) tested UT2k3 with FX5800U, GF4 and Radeon 9700 and posted some screenshots. His claim is that 9700 isn't doing real trilinear-filtering even when using UT2k3 to set the filtering-method. Is he right or is there some setting in UT2k3.ini which could cause this kind of behaviour? Here are the screenshots:
1. FX5800U without antidetector: (http://www.skenegroup.net/ut2003/5800_ut2003_mipmap_quality.jpg)
2. FX5800U with the script (http://www.skenegroup.net/ut2003/5800_ut2003_mipmap_quality_script.jpg)
3. GF4 (http://www.skenegroup.net/ut2003/gf4_ut2003_mipmap_quality.jpg)
4. Radeon 9700's trilinear (http://www.skenegroup.net/ut2003/9700_ut2003_mipmap_quality.jpg)
On a side note, how one can set the UT2k3 to use trilinear filtering? Through game-settings or via ut2003.ini?
K.I.L.E.R
23-Jul-2003, 07:24
Miksu, on my 9700 Pro I did get a difference in IQ as I have previously stated over quality forced mode in the CP.
You must go into the UT ini file and set AF to 16.
Dave Baumann
23-Jul-2003, 09:00
4. Radeon 9700's trilinear (http://www.skenegroup.net/ut2003/9700_ut2003_mipmap_quality.jpg)
That is Trilinear - why do they think its not?
That´s a ridiculous comparison, isn´t it?
The 9700 screenshot is from another viewing angle relative to the floor than the GF:s. Of course the result will look a little different, but it´s still trilinear.
4. Radeon 9700's trilinear (http://www.skenegroup.net/ut2003/9700_ut2003_mipmap_quality.jpg)
That is Trilinear - why do they think its not?
Actually I got their message little wrong. They are (afaik) saying that the quality of trilinear filtering is bad. You can see from that screenshot that after first part, it's getting all blocky.
Dave Baumann
23-Jul-2003, 10:57
Ahhh - read the recent 256MB Radeon review here! :D
Ahhh - read the recent 256MB Radeon review here! :D
Thanks for the tip. Found the answer.
Brent - in your upcoming 9600 review will you be investigating the texture quality slider under D3D to see if you can get a similar UT2003 quality to NVIDIA and then benchmarking them that way?
yes
K.I.L.E.R
28-Jul-2003, 10:00
Brent - in your upcoming 9600 review will you be investigating the texture quality slider under D3D to see if you can get a similar UT2003 quality to NVIDIA and then benchmarking them that way?
yes
Can you give me the registry keys?
Brent - in your upcoming 9600 review will you be investigating the texture quality slider under D3D to see if you can get a similar UT2003 quality to NVIDIA and then benchmarking them that way?
yes
Can you give me the registry keys?
There are no registry settings to mess with
Just pull the Texture Preference slider down from High Quality to Quality, Performance or High Performance. So far it looks like High Performance matches the closest with what NVIDIA is doing.
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