Obligatory iPhone 4 Thread... [Archive]

Grall

07-Jun-2010, 20:55

Hardware's looking good, IMO. By that I mean both the casing itself, and what's in it. Of course, thanks to previous leaks, the actual specs aren't much of a surprise.

Apparantly the thing's made entirely out of antiscratch-treated glass - both front AND back - with a stainless steel bezel around it which doubles as an antenna. Wicked. I never really liked the curved rear side of the previous iPhones; I much prefer a straight-backed "brick" type design. However, I guess some apple lovers will get grumpy when the docks of their consumer electronics no longer fit the contour of this new model! :)

One of the things I did not know of is the new MEMS gyro - I thought the iPhone already had that functionality, but apparantly the existing accelerometer in older models does not offer full six axis detection. The digital compass added in the 3Gs version was not mentioned in the reports I've read so far - I assume it is still in.

Regarding the camera, does anyone know what a "backside illuminated sensor" is? I'd imagine you would NOT want to illuminate your sensor - except by whatever photons you actually wish to capture in your photograph... :razz: I suppose it might refer to the new LED lamp, but that one's also mentioned separately, so I dunno really... *shrug*

The LCD screen uses IPS tech, not OLED. I'm not sorry, I don't believe OLED is ready for prime time yet. Seemingly Apple agrees. 4x higher contrast than previous iPhone models? Yes please, thank you. :) Don't care all that much for the 4x higher resolution though; 3D graphics may suffer having to shift that many more pixels. The framerate produced by the A4 processor sagged in the iPad I read in some tests/reviews, but the iPad screen is slightly higher rez than even this screen so perhaps it'll do OK. I just hope text renders well on this screen so I don't have to squint at tiny letters on a minimal display, if I were to buy one of these things.

Longer battery life, Steve says? Hurm! I'll believe it when I see it! :) The 3Ds had pathetic battery life, hardly making it through a full day even with just light use and that was with a fresh battery back from when the device launched. As we all know, Li-io/polymer batteries age rather horribly. This model is reportedly only marginally better, but at least it's SOME improvement.

Oh, and still no SD cardslot, fucksake...! Why oh why can't they just stick one in there, there's plenty room for it! (It's so you'll pay a hundred fucking dollars extra for the 32GB version, of course.)

Anyway, I fairly much hate Apple as a company, I think their attitude towards their own customers and digital freedom in general sucks ass, but the polished and well-featured nature of the hardware + resident software, plus the increasing ubiquitousness of iPhone applications for various uses makes this a veeeeery tempting product.

Scott_Arm

07-Jun-2010, 21:01

The new design is great. Most smartphones are loaded with features I wouldn't use, and this is no exception. All I need is gmail, gcal and mp3 playing.

Entropy

07-Jun-2010, 22:12

wishiknew

08-Jun-2010, 01:20

I didn't know what that back side thing was until I googled.

http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/200806/08-069E/index.html

But I do wonder about the naming of back and the front though.

wco81

08-Jun-2010, 02:17

The new design is great. Most smartphones are loaded with features I wouldn't use, and this is no exception. All I need is gmail, gcal and mp3 playing.

Then you may not need a smart phone, certainly not one of these with 1 Ghz CPUs in the SOC.

These phones are now being designed to run apps. and games, as well as do some fancy multimedia.

Android is also being aimed at "feature phones" which should cost less than smart phones.

Scott_Arm

08-Jun-2010, 02:58

Then you may not need a smart phone, certainly not one of these with 1 Ghz CPUs in the SOC.

These phones are now being designed to run apps. and games, as well as do some fancy multimedia.

Android is also being aimed at "feature phones" which should cost less than smart phones.

To be honest, I'd buy an iPhone anyway, because they're getting to be insanely cheap and I pretty much have an iPod with me at all times anyway. One less thing to carry, between my phone and mp3 player. I'm sure I'd use the occassional app, and do a bit of browsing, it's just not something I really need to have. The new design is really really nice.

wco81

08-Jun-2010, 03:03

Hardware cost is cheap.

The service is what really costs money over the life of the contract, especially if you don't use that much 3G data or burn up all your minutes.

If they offered an option to buy unlocked for say $500 but you get to use prepaid voice and data plans, that would be much more appealing.

aaronspink

08-Jun-2010, 04:00

Regarding the camera, does anyone know what a "backside illuminated sensor" is? I'd imagine you would NOT want to illuminate your sensor - except by whatever photons you actually wish to capture in your photograph... :razz: I suppose it might refer to the new LED lamp, but that one's also mentioned separately, so I dunno really... *shrug*

backside merely means that the imaging side is opposite of the metal/transistor side of the design. Effectively you build all the same structure: diode embedded in the substrate, transistors and wires on the substrate, etc. The difference comes from where you put the lens and color filter. In a traditional CMOS or CCD, the light path is on the front of the chip (where bumps would go on a flipchip design) while on a backside illuminated design, you flip the chip over and put the color filter (if there is one) and the lens on the silicon surface that hasn't been processed. The advantage is less internal interference because of the transistors and wires. The downside is that process controls and diode depth have to increase to make it work. In general, all the high end sensors are backside illuminated.

The LCD screen uses IPS tech, not OLED. I'm not sorry, I don't believe OLED is ready for prime time yet. Seemingly Apple agrees. 4x higher contrast than previous iPhone models? Yes please, thank you. :) Don't care all that much for the 4x higher resolution though; 3D graphics may suffer having to shift that many more pixels. The framerate produced by the A4 processor sagged in the iPad I read in some tests/reviews, but the iPad screen is slightly higher rez than even this screen so perhaps it'll do OK. I just hope text renders well on this screen so I don't have to squint at tiny letters on a minimal display, if I were to buy one of these things.

They aren't decreasing text size but increasing pixels for letter. Effectively think of it as the different between a 1200 DPI printer and a 400 DPI printer.

Oh, and still no SD cardslot, fucksake...! Why oh why can't they just stick one in there, there's plenty room for it! (It's so you'll pay a hundred fucking dollars extra for the 32GB version, of course.)

meh, the rage of SD slots is overblown. by having the flash inbuilt they get guaranteed performance and timing.

aaronspink

08-Jun-2010, 04:01

RobertR1

08-Jun-2010, 06:31

Getting a white one to replace my 3G model. The conf was impressive as are the hand on coming in.

Scott_Arm

08-Jun-2010, 06:35

actually, one of the best things i saw was quad-band HSDPA, which means it might work on the new carrier here.

Grall

08-Jun-2010, 06:49

on a backside illuminated design, you flip the chip over and put the color filter (if there is one) and the lens on the silicon surface that hasn't been processed.
Interesting! So the sensors on the processed side are actually sensitive enough to pick up the effects of light striking the other side of the substrate, if I understand your explanation correctly. How thick are these silicon wafers they use anyway? Can't be very much I'm thinking, or surely this technique wouldn't work?

Also, couldn't this method lead to a slight blurring of the image, as a photon striking the rear side near the border between two pixel elements be picked up by both of them?

They aren't decreasing text size but increasing pixels for letter. Effectively think of it as the different between a 1200 DPI printer and a 400 DPI printer.
Yeah, I get this, but I'm worried about poorly designed web pages (style sheets are my personal nemesis, as they refuse to be affected by changing the text size in the browser), or text formed by using image graphics...

meh, the rage of SD slots is overblown. by having the flash inbuilt they get guaranteed performance and timing.
Other than full HD video playback - which the screen rez does not support - what in an iPhone is THAT I/O performance sensitive? :) And regarding HD video, you can't (legally) rip blu-rays to stick on flash cards which might not be fast enough to support their bitrate - and they probably don't fit anyway as most movies are probably >16GB, which is the price/capacity sweet-spot for micro-sized flash devices right now...

So if you transcode the movie down to the ~900*whatever rez of the screen rez in order to shoehorn it onto the card, bitrate demands will drop considerably as well, making it possible to use even on slower SD cards! ...Except of course there isn't a cardslot, so duh... There goes that idea.

aaronspink

08-Jun-2010, 07:16

actually, one of the best things i saw was quad-band HSDPA, which means it might work on the new carrier here.

according to the FCC filing its actually penta-band HSDPA.

aaronspink

08-Jun-2010, 07:26

Yeah, I get this, but I'm worried about poorly designed web pages (style sheets are my personal nemesis, as they refuse to be affected by changing the text size in the browser), or text formed by using image graphics...

iOS have fullscreen zoom capability built into the web browser. It was the thing that made web browsing on a phone viable. You can zoom in and out the whole page instead of diddling with font size.

Other than full HD video playback - which the screen rez does not support - what in an iPhone is THAT I/O performance sensitive? :) And regarding HD video, you can't (legally) rip blu-rays to stick on flash cards which might not be fast enough to support their bitrate - and they probably don't fit anyway as most movies are probably >16GB, which is the price/capacity sweet-spot for micro-sized flash devices right now...

So if you transcode the movie down to the ~900*whatever rez of the screen rez in order to shoehorn it onto the card, bitrate demands will drop considerably as well, making it possible to use even on slower SD cards! ...Except of course there isn't a cardslot, so duh... There goes that idea.
[/quote]

Personally the only device with an SD slot that makes sense is the N8 with 16 GB of built in which allows you to use the SD for data only. Most of the phones with SD slots have minuscule capacity (100's of MB of which a good portion is already taken with the base load) making the SD slots not an option but a necessity at which point, there is no real point in having it be in a slot.

Just don't see the advantage of them honestly. The form factor is too small and they are two fragile. Lost more GB worth of them than I care to remember. Plus in 6 months Apple will release a 64GB version of the phone for $299.

nutball

08-Jun-2010, 07:33

Interesting! So the sensors on the processed side are actually sensitive enough to pick up the effects of light striking the other side of the substrate, if I understand your explanation correctly. How thick are these silicon wafers they use anyway? Can't be very much I'm thinking, or surely this technique wouldn't work?

Back-illuminated CCDs are commonly used in astronomy, and have been for quite a while, due to their improved light-capturing efficiency. They're typically thinned devices, ie. the subtrate is reduced in thickness by some chemical etching process as part of a later step in the production process.

Scott_Arm

08-Jun-2010, 07:37

according to the FCC filing its actually penta-band HSDPA.

Weird. The apple website only lists the following, and unfortunately not the band I'm looking for (1700 MHz)

UMTS/HSDPA/HSUPA (850, 900, 1900, 2100 MHz)

Grall

08-Jun-2010, 07:46

iOS have fullscreen zoom capability built into the web browser.
Yeah, I know. IE has the same thing nowadays, and I actually need to use it on my 22" 1920 monitor when reading + leaning back in my chair.

However, zooming the entire page on a screen as small as the iPhone's often introduces the need for VILE horizontal scrolling... :razz: Anyways, I'm not really upset about increasing the screen rez. I'm sure such a tight dot pitch gives images a really smooth appearance, and I can't wait to check it out myself.

Most of the phones with SD slots have minuscule capacity (100's of MB of which a good portion is already taken with the base load)
Perhaps that is so; my current phone for example, the S-E W995, has <120MB user-useable on-board flash, but that still does not preclude the usefulness of a cardslot. If nothing else it would remove the need for docking the phone to easily fill it up with new data.

Plus in 6 months Apple will release a 64GB version of the phone for $299.
Hm, what's the prescident for them doing that? I've no memory of Apple either updating specs halfway inbetween product cycles OR really dropping their prices either...

Entropy

08-Jun-2010, 09:08

In general, all the high end sensors are backside illuminated.

Your technical description is, as far as I understand it, perfectly correct. However, I was under the impression that the technology (introduced and described here (http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/200806/08-069E/index.html), 11th of June 2008) wasn't too interesting for higher end sensors since the larger pixel area, typically 10 times or so greater than the sensor in the iPhone 4, made the losses due to the reasons you described fairly small.
The sensor described in the Sony press release - 5MP, 1.75um squared et cetera bears a striking resemblance to the one used in the iPhone 4. Their commercial sensor products are described at Sony for the truly nerdy.

Toaddio

08-Jun-2010, 09:17

Don't care all that much for the 4x higher resolution though; 3D graphics may suffer having to shift that many more pixels. The framerate produced by the A4 processor sagged in the iPad I read in some tests/reviews, but the iPad screen is slightly higher rez than even this screen so perhaps it'll do OK. I just hope text renders well on this screen so I don't have to squint at tiny letters on a minimal display, if I were to buy one of these things.

The higher resolution should result in more accuracy for the end user when interacting with the device.

Erinyes

08-Jun-2010, 09:30

Yeah, I know. IE has the same thing nowadays, and I actually need to use it on my 22" 1920 monitor when reading + leaning back in my chair.

However, zooming the entire page on a screen as small as the iPhone's often introduces the need for VILE horizontal scrolling... :razz: Anyways, I'm not really upset about increasing the screen rez. I'm sure such a tight dot pitch gives images a really smooth appearance, and I can't wait to check it out myself.

I guess they'll implement some form of text reflow like the latest android phones have done. To quote from Gsmarena's review of the Samsung Galaxy S

The Galaxy S browser supports three zoom methods – dedicated buttons, double tap and multitouch pinch-zooming.
The browser supports text reflow – a moment after adjusting the zoom level, columns of text adjust to fit the screen width. Without text reflow you will either have to zoom out until the text fits (but then it’s too small to read comfortably) or scroll sideways to read each line.

Perhaps that is so; my current phone for example, the S-E W995, has <120MB user-useable on-board flash, but that still does not preclude the usefulness of a cardslot. If nothing else it would remove the need for docking the phone to easily fill it up with new data.

Hm, what's the prescident for them doing that? I've no memory of Apple either updating specs halfway inbetween product cycles OR really dropping their prices either...

Yep i agree, a cardslot is really useful for transferring data. But apple has to protect its high margins, a card slot would eliminate the need to sell the 32gb version for which they can charge 100$ extra when you can get a 16gb microsd card for less than 50$

I think they're currently limited by the availability of higher capacity NAND. 20 nm class flash will double the capacity of current NAND flash modules, these should be available by the end of this year or early next year. We may see them upgrade the specs midway between the cycles or possibly they may just wait till iphone 5(or 4G? whatever they call it)

Chandler55

08-Jun-2010, 09:35

Grall

08-Jun-2010, 10:21

so with 4x the pixels and the same gpu as 3gs we're back to iphone 3g fillrate performance?
This is a concern for those who care about fast 3D performance, but Apple hasn't announced any performance details for the GPU yet - do they ever actually do that though?

It's possible the GPU has seen a clock speed bump to help deal with the greater resolution screen...

Chandler55

08-Jun-2010, 10:40

This is a concern for those who care about fast 3D performance, but Apple hasn't announced any performance details for the GPU yet - do they ever actually do that though?

It's possible the GPU has seen a clock speed bump to help deal with the greater resolution screen...

it has the a4 chip which is the same as the one in the ipad, and I believe that has the same gpu as the 3gs. the fillrate isn't that bad, it's mostly a 2d issue where there's lots of objects to be drawn over other objects. 3d games should still be ok and get a huge boost from the A4 CPU. I was just hoping for a beefier fillrate since that is pretty much the bottleneck of most 2d games.

Rys

08-Jun-2010, 11:07

Panajev2001a

08-Jun-2010, 11:32

If you're seeing particular issues in your games on iPad or iPhone 4 and you're wondering about any potential optimisations or what have you, feel free to email me and Xmas and the other PowerVR devtech guys :smile:

There's generally always something we can do to give you a boost.

Uhm... if I ask "make a native Mac OS X version of all your various tools (minus DX related features)" adding the following:

1.) "please... :("
2.) tons of your chips go in devices that need an SDK that runs only on OS X...
3.) sometimes the artist is the coder too... or the coder is the artist... virtualization is not a panacea...

answer :)?

Simon82

08-Jun-2010, 12:09

Some questions to discuss...

1) It seems from the image that it's a smaller package of the Ipad Soc. Someone could say that it's the SAME soc or a simpler A4 based one?

2) Have Apple talked about the frequency or just it's based on A4? It could not be 1Ghz after all...

3) How do you compare that Soc with the S5PC110 of the Galaxy S?

Ike Turner

08-Jun-2010, 12:44

Some questions to discuss...

3) How do you compare that Soc with the S5PC110 of the Galaxy S?

It's exactly the same ARM core:
http://www.eetimes.com/rss/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=225402172&cid=RSSfeed_eetimes_newsRSS

http://i.cmpnet.com/eetimes/eedesign/2010/image1_060710.jpg

tangey

08-Jun-2010, 12:57

Thats hardly surprising as the core was supplied by intrinsity to both companies, and the chip manufactured by Samsung.

Simon82

08-Jun-2010, 14:50

It's exactly the same ARM core:
http://www.eetimes.com/rss/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=225402172&cid=RSSfeed_eetimes_newsRSS

http://i.cmpnet.com/eetimes/eedesign/2010/image1_060710.jpg

Interesting! i thoke that sane cortex architecture would not be so similar. :)

Xmas

08-Jun-2010, 15:13

so with 4x the pixels and the same gpu as 3gs we're back to iphone 3g fillrate performance? :evil: why couldnt apple have made some hardware pixel doubler scalar so we can still make our apps 320x480 and have great 2d sprite rendering performance
Who says you can't?

Uhm... if I ask "make a native Mac OS X version of all your various tools (minus DX related features)" adding the following:
We do have a Mac OS SDK, the tools use X11 though as we use a cross-platform toolkit.

Panajev2001a

08-Jun-2010, 16:30

Who says you can't?

We do have a Mac OS SDK, the tools use X11 though as we use a cross-platform toolkit.

I stand corrected, did browse the PowerVR website and found all tools needed... sorry... :(.

Lazy8s

08-Jun-2010, 17:55

The SGX in the S5PC110A01 should have a similar fill rate but approaching double the shader performance to the A4's, assuming frequency is fairly close (Apple might've been a little more aggressive there and could've closed the performance gap somewhat with that.)

aaronspink

08-Jun-2010, 21:39

Your technical description is, as far as I understand it, perfectly correct. However, I was under the impression that the technology (introduced and described here (http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/200806/08-069E/index.html), 11th of June 2008) wasn't too interesting for higher end sensors since the larger pixel area, typically 10 times or so greater than the sensor in the iPhone 4, made the losses due to the reasons you described fairly small.
The sensor described in the Sony press release - 5MP, 1.75um squared et cetera bears a striking resemblance to the one used in the iPhone 4. Their commercial sensor products are described at Sony for the truly nerdy.

Oh, I wasn't clear. By high end I meant the 10K-1M sensor only products used as backs for cameras and telescopes. Almost all are back illuminated and many are also cryogenically cooled.

Chandler55

08-Jun-2010, 21:57

Who says you can't?

WHOA, did they? that actually makes sense with the ipad's 2x mode

Entropy

08-Jun-2010, 22:25

Oh, I wasn't clear. By high end I meant the 10K-1M sensor only products used as backs for cameras and telescopes. Almost all are back illuminated and many are also cryogenically cooled.

Ah. Telescopes. Not quite the high end I assumed. In terms of regular photography the technique is fairly new though, and has been promoted for small sensors, where it brings a limited but appreciable benefit. I wouldn't expect miracles out of the camera on any phone, but the iPhone 4 sample shots look quite good for the breed.

aaronspink

09-Jun-2010, 03:42

Ah. Telescopes. Not quite the high end I assumed. In terms of regular photography the technique is fairly new though, and has been promoted for small sensors, where it brings a limited but appreciable benefit. I wouldn't expect miracles out of the camera on any phone, but the iPhone 4 sample shots look quite good for the breed.

Considering they kept the same sensor area and moved to back illumination while increasing the resolution, I wouldn't be surprised if the sensor they are using is better than a lot of real consumer digital camera in many situations. Where it is going to fall down (where basically all phone camera fall down) is in the optics. Really don't understand people putting an 11MP sensor in a phone when the optics probably can't really handle more than 2-3 reasonably.

flynn

09-Jun-2010, 06:56

I watched the keynote yesterday and am definitely very interested in this one. I carry my iPod Touch with me all time and would be happy to have a single device for both music and phone.

As a programmer I'm pretty excited about the hardware as well. I hope the GPU can keep up with the extra pixels, but it looks good.

Squilliam

09-Jun-2010, 07:41

Grall

09-Jun-2010, 09:56

the fillrate isn't that bad, it's mostly a 2d issue where there's lots of objects to be drawn over other objects.
Why don't you draw your objects front-to-back, and let the hardware eliminate the overdraw? You should be able to stack thousands (tens of thousands) of objects at full framerate without any problems at all...

Xmas

09-Jun-2010, 11:11

Why don't you draw your objects front-to-back, and let the hardware eliminate the overdraw? You should be able to stack thousands (tens of thousands) of objects at full framerate without any problems at all...
2D sprites often require blending so the hardware can't eliminate overdraw (unless you make the effort to
use additional geometry for the opaque parts).

Rys

09-Jun-2010, 11:28

Considering they kept the same sensor area and moved to back illumination while increasing the resolution, I wouldn't be surprised if the sensor they are using is better than a lot of real consumer digital camera in many situations. Where it is going to fall down (where basically all phone camera fall down) is in the optics. Really don't understand people putting an 11MP sensor in a phone when the optics probably can't really handle more than 2-3 reasonably.
Is there any room for improvement there given the space there is for optics on a phone, and the desire that the lens not move? I'm wondering if we've basically already hit the wall with phone photography quality.

wishiknew

09-Jun-2010, 13:10

I thought they kept the pixel size the same but increased the area of the sensor. Oh well.

Entropy

09-Jun-2010, 15:26

Is there any room for improvement there given the space there is for optics on a phone, and the desire that the lens not move? I'm wondering if we've basically already hit the wall with phone photography quality.

Of course there is room for improvement - even if you assume that the current lenses have no room for improvement (but they do), there are still improvements to look forward to in noise levels and dynamic range for sensor+electronics, as well as (huge) improvements in image processing.
As far as optics go, while size is certainly a constraint, particularly if you are thinking of zoom lenses, the cost constraints are brutal. On the bright side there are already cell phones that have a pronounced photo profile where the modules are allowed to cost a bit more, Nokia in particular comes to mind, but S-E and Samsung have some offerings as well. Lens materials, coatings, design complexity are factors that come into play both in terms of performance and cost, as well as focusing speed and accuracy et cetera. Add completely new technologies that may or may not come into play and the future looks fairly bright for camera phones - at least if you're the patient type.

But aaronspink raises a valid point, for sure - just about all aspects of photographic quality other than resolution typically get roughly as much attention and budget as their exposure in marketing justify....
IMHO consumer awareness, as usual, is key.

PS. wishiknew - you are correct. Pixel size (at the sensor level) is constant, and the number of pixels increased. I suspect which sensor we are dealing with but don't have enough information to say for sure - as I said, Sony Components offer pdfs for their offerings.

wco81

09-Jun-2010, 15:29

Hey can we expect an iTouch based upon this new hardware any time in the near future? How will they differ in terms of overall performance? Will we essentially have the iPhone minus phone stuff/GPS with everything else intact?

They typically don't put cameras on the iPod Touch either. Or digital compass, GPS.

You figure A4 SOC and the display will be on the iPod Touch they will release in September or so.

Anything else is a bonus.

He did say during the FaceTime demo I think, that there would be tens of millions of devices capable of FT by the end of the year. So they will either sell a lot of iPhone 4s this year or maybe they will put it on iPod Touch for the first time.

Front-facing camera can't do 720p BTW, only 640 x 480. But probably FT can't transmit 720p video anyways, although you can switch to the rear camera to stream video from it.

Scott_Arm

09-Jun-2010, 15:37

flynn

09-Jun-2010, 17:04

Any guess if FaceTime will show up as a desktop client some day? I'm curious why they didn't brand this as iChat for iPhone.

So, what makes FaceTime any different than a video enabled call in Skype? I'm guessing nothing, other than the internals.

They want to make it an open standard so it would reasonable to expect someone to create a desktop client for various OSs.

Skype is proprietary and this is going to be open.

aaronspink

09-Jun-2010, 18:18

Is there any room for improvement there given the space there is for optics on a phone, and the desire that the lens not move? I'm wondering if we've basically already hit the wall with phone photography quality.

There has been work with liquid lenses that has shown some promise. Can't remember who its was though thought it was samsung. But then again, a lot of the lenses are currently plastic in phones, not even a glass.

aaronspink

09-Jun-2010, 18:20

I thought they kept the pixel size the same but increased the area of the sensor. Oh well.

that's what I meant but left out the right word. ment to say diode and wrote sensor instead.

wco81

09-Jun-2010, 19:18

They want to make it an open standard so it would reasonable to expect someone to create a desktop client for various OSs.

Skype is proprietary and this is going to be open.

Well there's no NAT reconfiguration and there may be some way to discover the IP via the phone number? Because the UI is through the phone-calling window, it appeared.

One thing though is that Skype may be encrypted since it's P2P? Or at least its voice chat and audio are. Maybe video can't be encrypted?

Is FT encrypted is the question.

tongue_of_colicab

09-Jun-2010, 19:32

How good the iPhone4 might become, why would you want one if you can have the HTC Legend? if you hold a Legend, you want to lick it.

Scott_Arm

09-Jun-2010, 20:46

Well there's no NAT reconfiguration and there may be some way to discover the IP via the phone number? Because the UI is through the phone-calling window, it appeared.

One thing though is that Skype may be encrypted since it's P2P? Or at least its voice chat and audio are. Maybe video can't be encrypted?

Is FT encrypted is the question.

This is the description from the Apple site:

"FaceTime works right out of the box — no need to set up a special account or screen name. And using FaceTime is as easy as it gets. Let’s say you want to start a video call with your best friend. Just find her entry in your Contacts and tap the FaceTime button. Or maybe you’re already on a voice call with her and you want to switch to video. Just tap the FaceTime button on the Phone screen. Either way, an invitation pops up on her iPhone 4 screen asking if she wants to join you. When she accepts, the video call begins. It’s all perfectly seamless. And it works in both portrait and landscape modes."

I'm not really sure how cellphone protocols work, so I'm not sure if there is a room during a cell call to share information like an IP address that could be used to prep a video chat. Since the FaceTime app is always on, maybe your phone reports its phone number and IP address to a server, and when you launch a FaceTime session it looks up the connecting IP based on the current connected phone number. Not sure how you'd be able to do it in a P2P manner, switching from a voice call to an IP connection.

I'm almost 100% certain that it would all be encrypted. At least I hope it would be.

Another question I have: Does the FaceTime connection maintain the open cellular connection for audio, and use IP protocols only for video? If I walked out of a WiFi spot, would it fall back to a standard cellular call, or would I have to call back? Obviously this impacts minutes and the ability to make long distance calls.

rpg.314

09-Jun-2010, 21:20

I think FT uses wifi exclusively ATM.

RudeCurve

09-Jun-2010, 21:40

X-9gkOU0_Xo

As for the BSI sensor, for the average Joe who doesn't care about all that Einstien BS it simply means better low light capability when taking pictures/video.

A whole new camera system is built into iPhone 4. Everybody loves to talk about the things that are tangible when it comes to photography, like megapixels. But we tend to ask the question: how do we make better pictures?

Megapixels cameras are nice, but what cellphone cameras are really about is capturing photons and low-light photography. So we’ve gone from a 3 to a 5 megapixel sensor with a backside illuminated sensor. It’s a way of getting more light to the sensor… also, when most people increase the megapixels, they make the pixel sensors smaller. We’ve kept them the same size so they capture more photons.

london-boy

09-Jun-2010, 22:59

I must say... I'm anti-iPhone, in-love-with-my-Blackberry boy... But i'm kinda ashamed to say that i'm sort of digging the iPhone4... It's just sooooo pretty!!
NO! I can't! I must resist!! :runaway:

Squilliam

10-Jun-2010, 00:40

They typically don't put cameras on the iPod Touch either. Or digital compass, GPS.

You figure A4 SOC and the display will be on the iPod Touch they will release in September or so.

Anything else is a bonus.

Hmm, I wonder if the iTouch range are effectively binned iPhone chips to lower costs? Since the iPhone has to run much more power intensive 3G modules etc etc, the iTouch would be a higher voltage less suitable bin to lower fabbing costs overall?

Helmore

10-Jun-2010, 01:06

I must say... I'm anti-iPhone, in-love-with-my-Blackberry boy... But i'm kinda ashamed to say that i'm sort of digging the iPhone4... It's just sooooo pretty!!
NO! I can't! I must resist!! :runaway:
Same here. I'm the anything-but-Apple-kinda-guy and a big fan of both Android and WP7. I have to say though, I'm digging the iPhone 4.
....Must......resist.....:runaway:

flynn

10-Jun-2010, 06:54

How good the iPhone4 might become, why would you want one if you can have the HTC Legend? if you hold a Legend, you want to lick it.

The Legend is obsolete. 600MHz CPU and 320 X 480 HVGA display. :wink:

Grall

10-Jun-2010, 12:34

2D sprites often require blending so the hardware can't eliminate overdraw
Hm. "Often" would vary from title to title, would it not? :)

london-boy

10-Jun-2010, 12:58

Damn...
http://www.mobilecrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/DSC_0230.jpg

tangey

10-Jun-2010, 13:49

I see some sits saying it can play 720p. How can you play a 1280x720 video on a 960x640 display ?, are they playing it at 640x720 ?

Ike Turner

10-Jun-2010, 14:30

I see some sits saying it can play 720p. How can you play a 1280x720 video on a 960x640 display ?, are they playing it at 640x720 ?

Eh? Are you serious? :p
How can I play 1080P video on my 1050 monitor? It's automaticaly scaled down by the GPU to fit my screen. Same as the Zune HD playing 720P video on a 480x272 screen etc..You will get black bars on the iPhone because of the aspect ratio tho..

Or maybe I didn't understand your question...

london-boy

10-Jun-2010, 14:33

Eh? Are you serious? :p
How can I play 1080P video on my 1050 monitor? It's automaticaly scaled down by the GPU to fit my screen. Same as the Zune HD playing 720P video on a 480x272 screen etc..You will get black bars on the iPhone because of the aspect ratio tho..

Or maybe I didn't understand your question...
I think his point (which i agree with) is that once you downscale it, it's not 720p anymore, is it?
But i understand: the iPhone 4 captures 720p. i can watch it at full res on my Mac/PC but when watching the same video on the iPhone, it will be slightly downscaled.

Rys

10-Jun-2010, 15:53

There's TV out on the iPhone.

Scott_Arm

10-Jun-2010, 16:14

tangey

10-Jun-2010, 16:40

Eh? Are you serious? :p
How can I play 1080P video on my 1050 monitor? It's automaticaly scaled down by the GPU to fit my screen. Same as the Zune HD playing 720P video on a 480x272 screen etc..You will get black bars on the iPhone because of the aspect ratio tho..

Or maybe I didn't understand your question...

You didn't understand it, your zune is not HD device, anymore than an iphone 3GS taking HD content and scaling it to 480x320 would be a HD device. It appears that reviews are confusing the ability to take HD content and scale it down to a non-HD screen (which is something that 3GS can't do), with actually having a HD playback device.

london-boy

10-Jun-2010, 16:54

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2010/06/10/resolving-the-iphone-resolution/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+BadAstronomyBlog+(Bad+Astronomy )

Hubble guy talks iPhone resolution.

With this article and so many others, i have never in my life seen suck mostly useless pickiness in my entire life. Seriously, it's a screen. With many pixels. It looks good. Enough already about arcminutes and optic nerves and subatomic particles!
Of course Apple will talk about it as if our eyes will melt upon looking at it, it's their job. Good Lord!

Ike Turner

10-Jun-2010, 16:56

You didn't understand it, your zune is not HD device, anymore than an iphone 3GS taking HD content and scaling it to 480x320 would be a HD device. It appears that reviews are confusing the ability to take HD content and scale it down to a non-HD screen (which is something that 3GS can't do), with actually having a HD playback device.

I still can't figure out what you are trying to say here. The iPhone 4 (just like the Zune HD) will be able to decode a 720P video and play it back (automaticaly scaled down to 964x680) on the device's screen or in 720P on a TV (if it ever has a tv-out with HDMI adapter like the Zune HD), just like I'm able to playback a 1080p video on my 1050 screen, does this mean that my PC isn't an "HD playback device" because it isn't hooked up to a 1080p monitor/TV? . Nothing is stoping Apple to allow the video to be played at default zoom level on the handset's screen (this can be done on WinMo devices with CorePlayer, just set the view to 100% instead of fill screen or fit to screen)but more than half of the content will be missing ("outside"). Hope I was clear enough :)

Mariner

10-Jun-2010, 17:16

nutball

10-Jun-2010, 17:29

Cynicism aside I think that higher DPI screens are very useful on such small devices. Last phone I had that had anything close was the Nokia N80, it made a big difference to the readability of web pages at small font size. Hopefully one day all smartphones will be like this (and, while I'm on the subject, hopefully one day the trend will spread to the desktop).

Mariner

10-Jun-2010, 17:48

It will be interesting to see a comparison between this new IPS screen and the Samsung Super AMOLED screens.

In theory, at least, the Samsung screen will take a lot of beating.

Ike Turner

10-Jun-2010, 17:51

In theory, at least, the Samsung screen will take a lot of beating.

Why do you think that?

Mike11

10-Jun-2010, 17:56

They typically don't put cameras on the iPod Touch either. Or digital compass, GPS.

You figure A4 SOC and the display will be on the iPod Touch they will release in September or so.

Anything else is a bonus.

He did say during the FaceTime demo I think, that there would be tens of millions of devices capable of FT by the end of the year. So they will either sell a lot of iPhone 4s this year or maybe they will put it on iPod Touch for the first time.
"tens of millions of devices capable of FT by the end of the year" sounds like a long shot. But I can think of a few scenarios:

1) FT will remain iPhone 4 only and Apple will sell at least 20 million iPhone 4 in calendar year 2010... That sounds unlikely to me since the iPhone 4 won't be available worldwide until September and Apple sells around 2/3 of all iPhones outside the US. Plus part of these iPhones are the 3GS, which don't count towards FT enabled devices.

2) Apple will update iChat to be FaceTime compatible... Well, that would work for the "tens of millions" part, but I'm not sure for the "devices" part.

3) iPod touch with FaceTime... Apple will surely keep last years model around for the low-end like with the iPhone 3GS, but iPhone 4 and iPod touch 4th gen combined should have no trouble to reach 20 million. But I'm not sure that Apple is willing to upgrade the iPod touch to a be capable WiFi communication device (without the need for accessories) that can voice/video communicate with all iPhone 4s without any extra software or costs (and I bet AT&T would hate this idea too).

4) Other devices with FaceTime... Apple TV could get a camera of some sorts (add-on or integrated, the Apple TV could be small enough (since it's an iPod touch without battery and display) to put it on top of a TV, like a computer webcam). Or Apple already has partnerships with other manufacturers who will implement FaceTime in their devices this year.

Scott_Arm

10-Jun-2010, 18:25

I think it is safe to say that the display's specifications probably do exceed the human eye's ability to see the individual pixels - but only if you're within the bounds of the famous Steve Jobs Reality Distortion Field. ;)

I don't know. The article I posted is pretty interesting and seems to suggest most people wouldn't be able to discern individual pixels at about a foot or more, which is about as close as you'd ever hold the phone to your face.

The whole "Retinal Display" tag is kind of stupid though. They're making it sound like it's some new type of super-display, but it's just an IPS panel with small pixels. The display should look very nice though.

rpg.314

10-Jun-2010, 18:31

"tens of millions of devices capable of FT by the end of the year" sounds like a long shot. But I can think of a few scenarios:

1) FT will remain iPhone 4 only and Apple will sell at least 20 million iPhone 4 in calendar year 2010... That sounds unlikely to me since the iPhone 4 won't be available worldwide until September and Apple sells around 2/3 of all iPhones outside the US. Plus part of these iPhones are the 3GS, which don't count towards FT enabled devices.

2) Apple will update iChat to be FaceTime compatible... Well, that would work for the "tens of millions" part, but I'm not sure for the "devices" part.

3) iPod touch with FaceTime... Apple will surely keep last years model around for the low-end like with the iPhone 3GS, but iPhone 4 and iPod touch 4th gen combined should have no trouble to reach 20 million. But I'm not sure that Apple is willing to upgrade the iPod touch to a be capable WiFi communication device (without the need for accessories) that can voice/video communicate with all iPhone 4s without any extra software or costs (and I bet AT&T would hate this idea too).

4) Other devices with FaceTime... Apple TV could get a camera of some sorts (add-on or integrated, the Apple TV could be small enough (since it's an iPod touch without battery and display) to put it on top of a TV, like a computer webcam). Or Apple already has partnerships with other manufacturers who will implement FaceTime in their devices this year.

May be they'll push out FT onto macs also. :???:

iPod Touch does not have front facing camera.

wco81

10-Jun-2010, 21:20

Maybe I misheard the claim about tens of millions of FT-capable devices too.

AT&T is going to be real aggressive on upgrades, letting a lot of people upgrade early at the lower prices. Maybe because they expect iPhone going to Verizon in the near future as rumored.

Not absolutely sure that FT is a killer app. People will check it out but use it regularly?

Xmas

10-Jun-2010, 21:45

Hm. "Often" would vary from title to title, would it not? :)
Of course. But few titles will stack tens of thousands of rectangles onto each other. If you have many sprites, you probably also have some more interesting shapes and thus some amount of transparency.

You didn't understand it, your zune is not HD device, anymore than an iphone 3GS taking HD content and scaling it to 480x320 would be a HD device. It appears that reviews are confusing the ability to take HD content and scale it down to a non-HD screen (which is something that 3GS can't do), with actually having a HD playback device.
Are you saying the 3GS can't downscale HD content?
I don't think reviews are confusing these abilities, the distinction should be obvious from mentioning the display resolution.

Why do you think that?
PenTile perhaps. I certainly hope Samsung SDI is considering dropping PenTile for displays which are intended for more than showing photos and videos.

iPod Touch does not have front facing camera.
The current iPod Touch doesn't have a camera at all. But a product refresh is probably not too far off.

Mariner

10-Jun-2010, 23:05

Why do you think that?

Much higher contrast for the AMOLED screens, better viewing angles, lower power consumption.

A friend has a HTC Desire which uses a Non-Super AMOLED screen and from a quick look at that, it appeared much brighter and clearer than any other touch screen phone I've seen before.

The marketing battles have already begun!

http://blog.gsmarena.com/samsung-takes-a-hit-at-the-iphone-4-retina-display-says-it’s-structurally-unable-to-catch-up-with-amoled/

I'm certainly not complaining about the IPS screen in the new iPhone as it should be a big improvement over older TFT screens. The whole 'Retina' marketing claptrap is what irritates me most. Apple have got an excellent product in the iPhone, both old and new, but spout massive amounts of bullshit about all their stuff. Always have done, always will.

What particularly gets my goat is the TV adverts for the App Store - I wonder how many people read the tiny "Sequence shortened" lettering on the bottom of the screen as they show the iPhone doing something incredibly complex with about 2 touches! :smile:

Ike Turner

10-Jun-2010, 23:05

PenTile perhaps. I certainly hope Samsung SDI is considering dropping PenTile for displays which are intended for more than showing photos and videos.

So far the only devices on the market with a PenTile Matrix AMOLED panel are the HTC Desire/Nexus One ( the HTC Legend has a normal RGB AMOLED panel). No? AFAIK Samsung's own handsets don't use it and the SuperAMOLED stuff I've seen doesn't seem to have a PineTile Matrix either. I could be wrong though...
Edit: did some research and it seems like the SuperAMOLED Panel does have the shitty PenTile Matrix...

Ike Turner

10-Jun-2010, 23:07

Much higher contrast for the AMOLED screens, better viewing angles, lower power consumption.

A friend has a HTC Desire which uses a Non-Super AMOLED screen and from a quick look at that, it appeared much brighter and clearer than any other touch screen phone I've seen before.

The marketing battles have already begun!

http://blog.gsmarena.com/samsung-takes-a-hit-at-the-iphone-4-retina-display-says-it’s-structurally-unable-to-catch-up-with-amoled/

I'm certainly not complaining about the IPS screen in the new iPhone as it should be a big improvement over older TFT screens. The whole 'Retina' marketing claptrap is what irritates me most. Apple have got an excellent product in the iPhone, both old and new, but spout massive amounts of bullshit about all their stuff. Always have done, always will.

What particularly gets my goat is the TV adverts for the App Store - I wonder how many people read the tiny "Sequence shortened" lettering on the bottom of the screen as they show the iPhone doing something incredibly complex with about 2 touches! :smile:

Oh I thought you were saying the opposite (that the IPS panel was better than the Super AMOLED). BTW, as stated above the AMOLED Panel on the HTC Desire sin't even the best around (thanks to the crazy PenTile Matrix) and HTC's shitty color calibration)

Mariner

10-Jun-2010, 23:53

Will take a lot of beating, not will take a beating. Damn me and my English idiom. Two nations, separated by the same language... :wink:

I've heard of the problems with PenTile displays but only had a quick look at my friend's HTC Desire so didn't really look for fuzzy text/dodgy gradients. I realise the screen isn't as good as the new Super AMOLED and has issues, but I was pretty impressed at a quick glance.

tangey

11-Jun-2010, 00:16

I don't think reviews are confusing these abilities, the distinction should be obvious from mentioning the display resolution.

the MobileCrunch review says:-
"The iPhone 4 can play 720p files up to 30FPS, but HD output would have been nice as well."
"as well" implying that it can display HD content natively.

And then they say, (in relation to the double resolution screen):-
"Expect “HD” upgrades for your favorite apps, though, and expect to pay"

That would confuse many an average Joe into thinking they were getting a HD phone.

http://www.mobilecrunch.com/2010/06/07/everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-iphone-4/#more-33121

flynn

11-Jun-2010, 07:48

Mike11

11-Jun-2010, 08:14

the MobileCrunch review says:-
"The iPhone 4 can play 720p files up to 30FPS, but HD output would have been nice as well."
"as well" implying that it can display HD content natively.

And then they say, (in relation to the double resolution screen):-
"Expect “HD” upgrades for your favorite apps, though, and expect to pay"

That would confuse many an average Joe into thinking they were getting a HD phone.

http://www.mobilecrunch.com/2010/06/07/everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-iphone-4/#more-33121
Well, since HD itself simply means higher than SD (or whatever was the standard before "HD", in the case of the iPhone the standard definition is 480x320)...

IMHO a 1280x853 (or 1440x960) resolution just for being able to natively display 720p video on a 3.5" screen would have been crazy (the "hawk eye retina" display). And I don't think Apple will change the resolution again until they change the aspect ratio and practically make the whole front one big screen (or the iPhone can project a hologram ;-) ). I absolutely can't see Apple making the iPhone so much bigger to fit a 4.3" 3:2 screen.

tangey

11-Jun-2010, 10:01

Well, since HD itself simply means higher than SD (or whatever was the standard before "HD",

The case for the prosecution rests.

Rolf N

11-Jun-2010, 17:09

idsn6

11-Jun-2010, 18:35

Does this OS update have any implications for the app perspective? Are there new APIs, or is it strictly (transparent) interface and concurrency enhancements?
1500+ new APIs by Apple's count. (http://developer.apple.com/technologies/iphone/whats-new.html)

I'm asking because I'm seconds away from pulling the trigger on an iPod touch 32GB, purely for development/testing purposes. If that is already an obsolete platform awaiting a refresh, I'd be mighty pissed.
A new iPod touch with iPhone 4 internals is generally expected around September.

Xmas

11-Jun-2010, 18:46

Does this OS update have any implications for the app perspective? Are there new APIs, or is it strictly (transparent) interface and concurrency enhancements?

I'm asking because I'm seconds away from pulling the trigger on an iPod touch 32GB, purely for development/testing purposes. If that is already an obsolete platform awaiting a refresh, I'd be mighty pissed.
While an iPod Touch refresh is probably not too far away, iOS4 is a free update for older devices. So the question is really whether you're interested in additional hardware features (phone, higher-res screen, camera, gyroscope, possibly more).

flynn

11-Jun-2010, 18:51

Does this OS update have any implications for the app perspective? Are there new APIs, or is it strictly (transparent) interface and concurrency enhancements?

I'm asking because I'm seconds away from pulling the trigger on an iPod touch 32GB, purely for development/testing purposes. If that is already an obsolete platform awaiting a refresh, I'd be mighty pissed.

Your iPod Touch will be updated to iOS4 on the 21st of July (IIRC), so don't worry about that. There are some new APIs indeed, but they do not fundamentally change the way you develop apps.

wco81

11-Jun-2010, 19:03

What if he wants to support the higher resolution screen or the gyroscope?

Or the two cameras?

Might be nice to have hardware to test those features.

But from a consumer POV, unless he's getting a big discount on the current iPod Touch, in September, he'll get a lot more for the same amount of money.

Rolf N

11-Jun-2010, 19:34

Thanks for the responses!

That the old hw still gets the updated OS is all I needed to hear. Different clock speeds and screen resolutions shouldn't be a big issue.

Camera and motion sensing ... hmm. Don't need either now :)

tongue_of_colicab

11-Jun-2010, 19:35

The screen in my Nexus One looked great... until I tried to use it outdoors. I don't know of that has been solved in newer screens but it was really disappointing.

Name one device with a screen that does work properly outdoors. Notebooks, phones, handhelds etc all become hard to look at when outdoors in direct sunlight.

nutball

11-Jun-2010, 19:46

Name one device with a screen that does work properly outdoors.

Ermm.... iPhone? And all of the other LCD-based phones I've ever owned? :???: Also all of my laptops barring my Dell Mini 9?

I mean yeah with some of the phones you get the "woo, spot the effect of Rayleigh scattering in action, polarisation FTW" thing on a bright, sunny, blue-skied day but they're still eminently legible.

Pressure

11-Jun-2010, 20:01

Name one device with a screen that does work properly outdoors. Notebooks, phones, handhelds etc all become hard to look at when outdoors in direct sunlight.

Technically speaking all displays work properly outdoors.

The differentiator is if they are viewable, especially in direct sunlight.

I haven't had any problems with either my phones or notebooks, your mileage may vary of course.

Helmore

11-Jun-2010, 20:33

Your iPod Touch will be updated to iOS4 on the 21st of July (IIRC), so don't worry about that. There are some new APIs indeed, but they do not fundamentally change the way you develop apps.
IIRC it was June the 21st for that update.
Technically speaking all displays work properly outdoors.

The differentiator is if they are viewable, especially in direct sunlight.

I haven't had any problems with either my phones or notebooks, your mileage may vary of course.
My notebook screen is unusable in direct sunlight. It really differs from screen to screen and the same holds true for OLED. You also have to consider that OLED is still in its infancy.

Mike11

12-Jun-2010, 22:34

Name one device with a screen that does work properly outdoors. Notebooks, phones, handhelds etc all become hard to look at when outdoors in direct sunlight.
For me, the best smartphone for readability in direct bright sunlight was the Nokia E90 Communicator. Nokia uses (or used) some special transreflective screens on the E-series (business series). The brighter it got in direct sunlight (and it had to be very bright) the more monochrome the screen became, but it was still readable when you couldn't make out anything on the iPhone 3G.

Chandler55

12-Jun-2010, 22:39

ok so apparently the iphone4 and ipad will be able to render at 320x480 so fillrate wont be boned. i checked the sdk, good to know games will run as fast or faster than 3gs with no problems. I wonder if more developers will use the 3gs as the common denominator as more people upgrade their 2g/3g's to 3gs/4......

Mike11

15-Jun-2010, 08:56

I guess if Apple sticks to its general practice (iPod, 3G/3GS) then the next iPhone (5) will be all about it's SoC (Cortex-A9 dual-core?) and overall speed improvements and will only have minor (if at all) design changes. At least I think that's what Apple planed to do, but maybe the growing competition (Android, WP7) will force them to step it up.

roninja

15-Jun-2010, 10:59

next ipad perhaps will feature Cortex A9 plus SGX 543 at the high end but it's likely that A4 will have a 24month lifespan all in all before phase out.

Arun

15-Jun-2010, 11:26

next ipad perhaps will feature Cortex A9 plus SGX 543 at the high end but it's likely that A4 will have a 24month lifespan all in all before phase out.Given that Apple has now maintained an astonishing ~6 months chip release cycle for the last TWO YEARS (!!!), I don't think that's very likely. I am referring to the following four chips: iPod Touch 2G, iPhone 3GS, iPod Touch 3G, A4. Just look at the second image on this page: http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=224701036&printable=true&printable=true

Since the acquired Intrinsity group likely wouldn't be ready for switching to the Cortex-A9 so rapidly, the real question is what improvements might justify a new SoC for the iPod Touch 3G. My guess is none are sufficient to justify the R&D, and *if* Apple keeps to a 6 month cycle then it's much more likely we see a lower-end SoC on 45nm if they want to do something akin to an iPhone Nano (big if as always). Alternatively, they might concentrate on a 45nm Cortex-A9 SoC for a 1H11 iPad refresh, or skip that and go straight for 32nm on Cortex-A9 in 2H11. I could not believe that we won't see a new SoC between 1H10 and 2H11 though.

Mike11

16-Jun-2010, 02:55

Given that Apple has now maintained an astonishing ~6 months chip release cycle for the last TWO YEARS (!!!), I don't think that's very likely. I am referring to the following four chips: iPod Touch 2G, iPhone 3GS, iPod Touch 3G, A4. Just look at the second image on this page: http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=224701036&printable=true&printable=true

Since the acquired Intrinsity group likely wouldn't be ready for switching to the Cortex-A9 so rapidly, the real question is what improvements might justify a new SoC for the iPod Touch 3G. My guess is none are sufficient to justify the R&D, and *if* Apple keeps to a 6 month cycle then it's much more likely we see a lower-end SoC on 45nm if they want to do something akin to an iPhone Nano (big if as always). Alternatively, they might concentrate on a 45nm Cortex-A9 SoC for a 1H11 iPad refresh, or skip that and go straight for 32nm on Cortex-A9 in 2H11. I could not believe that we won't see a new SoC between 1H10 and 2H11 though.
Let's assume Apple wants to use the same basic chip in all three devices (iPad, iPhone, iPod touch). As far as we know, is it possible for Intrinsity's Cortex-A9 dual-core to be ready in time for the next iPad (let's assume March 2011)? And if (Samsung's?) 32nm process is not ready for the iPad, is it practical for Apple to ship in 45/40nm for the iPad and 32nm for the iPhone (since I assume a 45nm dual-core has too high power requirements for the iPhone and Apple's battery life standards).

I'm assuming dual-core because I don't think that Apple can afford to ship a single core CPU in its new devices in 2011. IMHO Apple doesn't have to have SoCs that are a generation ahead, but they need to be at the top of the current generation because their devices have to be at least good enough for a year while the competition will crank out new and improved devices every month. And in H1/2011 we will see dual-core CPUs in tablets and high-end smartphones from other manufacturers for sure.

wco81

16-Jun-2010, 03:28

I'm assuming dual-core because I don't think that Apple can afford to ship a single core CPU in its new devices in 2011. IMHO Apple doesn't have to have SoCs that are a generation ahead, but they need to be at the top of the current generation because their devices have to be at least good enough for a year while the competition will crank out new and improved devices every month. And in H1/2011 we will see dual-core CPUs in tablets and high-end smartphones from other manufacturers for sure.

I don't know, in their history, they've shipped inferior hardware before, though probably not since they started using Intel.

Issue is whether they can get good enough performance, with same or better battery life than the competition, if the competition is at dual-core and Apple devices remain single-core next year.

Some of the early impressions of Tegra2 tablets with Android suggest that the software isn't taking advantage of the faster CPU. Maybe that will change completely with 2.2.

But Apple devices don't have to be the fastest or have the most megapixels in the camera, etc. They just have to be perceived as smoothly-performing and can do enough "multitasking" to make people think about something other than performance.

That said, since they intro'd a new form factor this year, they probably will shoot for improving the internals next year.

Mike11

16-Jun-2010, 14:15

I don't know, in their history, they've shipped inferior hardware before, though probably not since they started using Intel.
AFAIK every iPhone model was at least on par with the competition in terms of internals at it's release date. In recent memory the 3GS was the fastest with it's 600MHz Cortex-A8 (I think Palm Pre was the runner up at the time with a 550MHz Cortex-A8 and a SGX530) and it looks like the iPhone 4 just gets beaten in terms of raw specs by the Samsung Galaxy S which comes out just a week earlier (assuming the A4 isn't running too much below 1GHz).

wco81

16-Jun-2010, 16:41

I think the pace of releases, especially by Android vendors, is going to be hard for Apple to keep up with, especially if they stick to an annual release cycle. OTOH, look at the iPhone4 preorders. Looks like the annual cycle has created an event and a lot of pent-up demand gets unleashed all at once.

HTC and others can grab the latest SOCs as they come off the line. Plus no single Android model is shipping anywhere near iPhone volumes so they don't have to wait for production to ramp up on an SOC. They can release a model and get some publicity about the incremental features, including the internals, then release another incremental upgrade 3 months later. That seems to be HTC's pace, at least for this year.

But I don't think the average consumer is going to be demanding phones with such and such clock speed or dual-cores or specific SGX chips or even a specific level of DX or Open GL support.

You have to show them new applications or capabilities. Maybe Face Time helps. But for a lot of people, it seems the shiny, sleek industrial design is a big draw. After all, that's what gets noticed by other people when you pull out your latest and greatest phone.

Beyond that, responsiveness and subjective sense of speed probably helps too. With every new release of iOS, legacy hardware performance degrades. So iPhone doesn't have to be the fastest smartphone out there. It just has to be faster than the previous iPhone (with new OS features).

Lazy8s

16-Jun-2010, 17:22

Mike11

16-Jun-2010, 18:53

With the MBX+VGP Lite/ARM11 and SGX535/Cortex-A8 sets of cores evenly spanning the four years of releases of Apple mobile devices, they get two prime-time years out of each set using clock speed upgrades.

They're definitely due for new cores next year. While a dual-processor Cortex-A9 will be ready, SGX543MP (possibly in a 2, 3, or 4 core configuration?) will be cutting it close for availability.
But, assuming Samsung's still gonna be the manufacturer, will their 32nm process be ready in time for mass production (for the first next gen Apple device, the 2011 iPad in maybe March)? If think that's the bigger question here. AFAIK some customers' 32LP tape out is supposed to start in Q3, that seems quite late (for the iPad).

ltcommander.data

18-Jun-2010, 05:39

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/10/06/17/apple_reveals_iphone_4_has_512mb_ram_doubling_ipad _report.html

Leaks from the WWDC presentations report that the iPhone 4 actually has 512MB of RAM. Double the iPhone 3G S and notably double the iPad. It's also double what the leaked iPhone 4 prototype had. I guess we'll never know whether it was doubled as a response to the leak or was 512MB always the intention for production models. I didn't think that 256MB of RAM was really limiting apps, but it'll no doubt be valuable for multitasking/background tasks.

wco81

18-Jun-2010, 05:48

Word is that they doubled the RAM so it could run iMovie.app, which only runs on iPhone 4.

Mike11

18-Jun-2010, 10:42

Entropy

18-Jun-2010, 14:34

The more the better, especially since fast app switching and state-saving will be such an inconsistent and random experience for the user once state-saved apps get kicked out of RAM.

For clarity, even in this case iOS4 is still better or equivalent to the typical multitasking behavior, where competing apps are free to hammer away at the subsystems even as you are trying to load the application you actually want.

Apple didn't go with the multitasking behavior they already had in place (but didn't make accessible) because they felt it wasn't good enough for this platform. What they have introduced is what they feel is a better compromise. You may not agree. But responsiveness is what they have optimized for, so if you want to piss on them, it would be wise to choose another aspect of their multitasking implementation.

Mike11

18-Jun-2010, 18:29

For clarity, even in this case iOS4 is still better or equivalent to the typical multitasking behavior, where competing apps are free to hammer away at the subsystems even as you are trying to load the application you actually want.

Apple didn't go with the multitasking behavior they already had in place (but didn't make accessible) because they felt it wasn't good enough for this platform. What they have introduced is what they feel is a better compromise. You may not agree. But responsiveness is what they have optimized for, so if you want to piss on them, it would be wise to choose another aspect of their multitasking implementation.
I totally agree with Apple, at least in principle. It's the execution and inconsistent user experience in 4.0 that I have problems with. And every bit of RAM helps minimize that, so I welcome the bump to 512MB. But that doesn't mean that it isn't a great and appropriate system once all the kinks are gone and all developers have properly updated their apps (and implemented full state serialization by themselves). I expect this to happen around iOS 5.

wco81

19-Jun-2010, 01:13

Speculation is that they added the RAM partly to run the iMovie app, which only runs on iPhone4.

BRiT

19-Jun-2010, 02:48

And who in the US would ever run the iMovie app on the iPad considering AT&T's 5Gb a month limit?

wco81

19-Jun-2010, 05:22

Actually the limit is less now.

You could do the editing but wait until Wifi is available to do the upload.

I don't know that there's this great need to have to edit and upload on the go though.

ltcommander.data

19-Jun-2010, 18:23

Speculation is that they added the RAM partly to run the iMovie app, which only runs on iPhone4.
iMovie HD 6 only required 256MB of RAM, so it probably would be possible for Apple to get iMovie to work on the iPad or third gen devices. Not that I'm complaining about them putting in more RAM of course.

Mike11

23-Jun-2010, 11:21

As usual, iFixit took it apart:
http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/iPhone-4-Teardown/3130/1

And Chipworks' in-depth analysis of the iPhone 4's components:
http://www.chipworks.com/iPhone-4-teardown.aspx

BRiT

24-Jun-2010, 04:52

Seems like iPhone 4 has some reception issues depending on how you hold the phone [ http://gizmodo.com/5571171/iphone-4-loses-reception-when-you-hold-it-by-the-antenna-band ]

Speedtests while not touching iPhone, while touching with hands, and while touching inside leather case with hands:

http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/4/2010/06/handsonreceptionprobs.jpg

as soon as you connect the left side with the bottom, that's when reception starts to drop.

AdB-VkEpoC4

mboeller

24-Jun-2010, 06:28

this could have something to do with the metallic frame of the iPhone4:

http://www.fonearena.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/iphone4_2up_front_side.jpg

According to the c't article about the iPhone4, the 2 small "plastic" openings in the metallic frame are the areas for the antennas. Therefore if you cover this area with your hand reception could start to drop.

RudeCurve

24-Jun-2010, 10:33

The small openings are there to physically separate the two antennas. When you bridge this "gap" with your hand you are "shorting" them together. The two-piece steel frame are the antennas.

At 2:56 SJ describes the "gap".

7Zo1xE5a4vQ

mboeller

24-Jun-2010, 11:29

Entropy

24-Jun-2010, 23:14

I totally agree with Apple, at least in principle. It's the execution and inconsistent user experience in 4.0 that I have problems with. And every bit of RAM helps minimize that, so I welcome the bump to 512MB. But that doesn't mean that it isn't a great and appropriate system once all the kinks are gone and all developers have properly updated their apps (and implemented full state serialization by themselves). I expect this to happen around iOS 5.
Apologies for my tone.
Even before smartphones, I always found the "preemptive multitasking is the pinnacle of OS technology" attitude of those who had read a bit on the net or passed Computer Science 101 annoying. The fact that it originated for multiuser mainframes catering to users attached at 300 - 9600 baud running text interfaces and may not have been a very good model for supercomputing, real-time computing, embedded systems, and eventually even single user systems never seems to have registered.

You'd think single user computers should be a piece of cake, but since the MC68000 Apollo workstations of the early 80s computing resources has risen by easily a factor of 1000 or more, we've had two or three decades to improve scheduling and I/O and interrupt handling, and I still get stalled occasionally sitting at my 2,8GHz four core/eight thread system. The method of personal computing to improve responsiveness has largely been to throw hardware at the problem, assuming that with fast enough hardware the time that the system gets stuck in la-la land should get short enough to be unnoticeable. While the idea obviously isn't without some merit it is a horrible, horrible approach for handheld devices where long battery life and low weight are of critical importance.

Being aware of the issues involved and trying to improve the situation by being more intelligent on the software side, rather than just filling the check box (and silencing semi-educated tech-nerds) by using what they already had working, does Apple a lot of credit. Seeing them criticized on the net for not taking the easy way out is frustrating.

Colourless

25-Jun-2010, 07:39

The antenna issue had to be foreseable. Touching metal antennas seriously changes the tuning characteristics, and shorting or grounding antennas can really screw things up. Every phone that I've ever had with an exposed antenna has been covered with an electrically insulating material. The iPhone 4 shoudd have a coating on the edge, BUT that wouldn't be anywhere near as cool to look at and touch....

BRiT

25-Jun-2010, 08:14

It seems Steve Jobs responded to an email about the antenna issue saying:

Just avoid holding it that way.

So the community responded in kind ( http://www.engadget.com/2010/06/25/hey-apple-youre-holding-it-wrong ) :

We're only holding it in the way that you showed us.

http://www.ballsgohere.com/uploads/61cdebb3af.jpg (http://www.ballsgohere.com)

Scott_Arm

25-Jun-2010, 14:45

That's an incredibly bad design screwup. I'm sure someone will make some nice money designing a non-conductive skin to fix the problem.

wco81

25-Jun-2010, 14:59

Supposedly not a problem with the bumpers from Apple.

Only $29. ;)

Some have suggested a non-conductive coating on the antenna.

Scott_Arm

25-Jun-2010, 15:01

I guess pretty much any skin or case would do.

NRP

25-Jun-2010, 15:50

A coworker just got one, so I stole it and played around with it. Bottom line: screen is awesome! Text clarity is much improved. Feels a little heavier than my 3G. Seems about as responsive as a 3GS.

Biggest improvement is the screen. Other than that, it's not really that much different than previous iPhones. Didn't make any calls so I'm not sure about the antenna issue.

Mize

25-Jun-2010, 16:11

I think the antenna issue is hysterical considering they could have used and ultra-thin nonconductive clear coat (q-dope) and eliminated it. The shattered glass pics are making a "bumper" case look mandatory. I'm still looking to the N8 for my next phone...pentaband 3G means it works EVERYWHERE and isn't locked down so I can use it as a wifi access point...yes, Symbian sucks for looks, but it's quite functional.

Ike Turner

25-Jun-2010, 17:49

http://web17.twitpic.com/img/120688720-321140708ac35fbff7f3380647c6bdcc.4c24e090-full.png#

rpg.314

25-Jun-2010, 17:55

A rare design mis-step by Apple, IMHO.

RobertR1

25-Jun-2010, 23:45

Got mine today. Walked into a local store and they had left overs from people who didn't want to wait in line yesterday. My previous was a 3G. Coming from a 3G, it simply does everything better, a lot better. The UI is very responsive. Most importantly, it can now keep up with my typing. The screen, as everyone mentions, is stunning. Well done apple. My phone doesn't suffer from blotches or severe signal loss (or any) so far, so that makes me happy.

wco81

26-Jun-2010, 00:04

Let see how many people return it because they can't hold it lefty or in whatever ways it takes to induce the short and the signal loss.

idsn6

26-Jun-2010, 00:46

By all means, yes, let's.

ltcommander.data

26-Jun-2010, 03:51

Let see how many people return it because they can't hold it lefty or in whatever ways it takes to induce the short and the signal loss.
Or we'll see whether the supposed iOS 4.0.1 update that responses in Apple's Support Forums said was coming soon, before the posts were pulled, fixes the issue like it's supposed to.

wco81

26-Jun-2010, 04:03

How would they fix that with software?

That would be ideal, because if they have to make physical changes, it would cost more.

BRiT

26-Jun-2010, 04:52

Software can not change the laws of radio waves. This reminds me of Homer exclaiming "In this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics!"

ltcommander.data

26-Jun-2010, 05:50

I think the hope is that the major problem is with iOS 4's ability to search for the best radio frequency and switch to it, which may have been implemented improperly. Reportedly iPhone 3GS users are seeing similar signal problems when strongly gripping the bottom of the phone more easily since the iOS 4 update, which would seem to point to something being up with iOS 4. iPhone 4's antenna design may only be a contributing factor that exacerbates the iOS 4 problem. If this is true, then hopefully after iOS 4.0.1, any performance degradation by gripping the bottom of the iPhone 4 will be more in line with what is seen in other phones that have bottom mounted antennas, which is most of them.

Mize

26-Jun-2010, 05:52

Uh, shorting an antenna to another shouldn't kill reception/transmission if the other antenna isn't active or grounded. I'll assume it's not grounded as it wouldn't work as an antenna so perhaps deactivating one radio when another is in use might be the answer and fixable via software. The bigger question is what radio does one sacrifice? Has anyone confirmed signal loss with Wifi OFF? All the vids I've seen so far have it on.

Mize

26-Jun-2010, 06:13

RudeCurve

26-Jun-2010, 07:36

LOL. The band on the left is combined wifi/BT and all the videos of reception loss are with either wifi or BT turned on. So you have Wifi and BT trying to broadcast on the 2.4 GHz band with GSM/UMTS pushing 850 MHz on the same antenna. I'd like to see if the problem persists with Wifi and BT BOTH turned off.

Well...just so you know lots of people...myself included use BT headsets while making calls to/from our phones...:wink:

It's required by law and applys when driving a vehicle in some states.

wco81

26-Jun-2010, 08:10

Yeah but if you're using bluetooth, you're not likely to be holding the phone.

Walt Mossberg's review said that in some areas, iPhone 4 showed no bars while iPhone 3GS showed a couple of bars. iPhone 4 was actually able to make calls in these situations so the software wasn't rendering the signal strength correctly. So that could be a software fix. But this case didn't involve shorting the antenna.

Others have suggested the problem only occurs in certain areas and maybe with sweatier hands.

RudeCurve

26-Jun-2010, 08:45

Yeah but if you're using bluetooth, you're not likely to be holding the phone.

Well I don't know about you or others but like most normal people I have to hold the phone to dial a call while using BT and if I'm receving a call I like to see WHO is calling before I answer and to do that I need to take the phone out of my pocket and look at the number and/or picture.

Mize

26-Jun-2010, 13:38

I'm not saying it's not a design flaw - just that people are being sensational by not pointing this little tidbit out. In fact, now that I know the iphone4 doesn't have BT voice dialing I'm even more disappointed in it.

The only time I use BT is in one of my vehicles (the dorky star trek headsets are just not my thing) and both of my regular drivers have it built in with voice dialing by phonebook or number.

I also imagine you're in England since you're holding and dialing left handed (which, BTW violates all the "no handsets" laws here in the US). In the US with right-side shifters most everyone would dial right handed which wouldn't be affected by the apple design flub.

One last thing...a very thin layer of clear insulator could be sprayed on by apple at their factories and fix the whole thing.

wco81

26-Jun-2010, 14:40

I have a bluetooth speaker and when I dial, I hold the phone in my one hand, cradling the phone on my hand with my thumb on the screen and dialing with the thumb. So never hold the edges and then once the call is dialing I put the phone down.

wco81

26-Jun-2010, 14:54

Here's a technical overview of antenna design in phones due to regulatory and network requirements.

http://www.antennasys.com/antennasys-blog/2010/6/24/apple-iphone-4-antennas.html

This antenna expert is getting an iPhone 4.

RudeCurve

28-Jun-2010, 14:46

Here's a quick review by G4's AOTS.

BYf_vIemPF0

I'll be getting mine in a few days, will probably order it online from ATT though since the local stores will probably be sold out.

london-boy

29-Jun-2010, 13:48

ok so how widespread is this reception issue? because i just went to a store to see one and held it in whatever way you should or shouldn't hold it and there was no change whatsoever in signal... What's the fuss all about?

Mize

29-Jun-2010, 14:01

clearly you have insufficiently sweaty paws

wco81

29-Jun-2010, 15:32

Apple is a high-profile target. So it wouldn't be surprising if this is overblown.

aaronspink

29-Jun-2010, 18:48

Apple is a high-profile target. So it wouldn't be surprising if this is overblown.

All phones have reception variability with the ways in which they are held. While the iPhone4 may have more variability, it also seems to have better signal strength in general so far in my experience.

london-boy

30-Jun-2010, 09:53

Squilliam

30-Jun-2010, 12:02

I just don't understant how i can see videos of people showing that the signal completely dies when touching the right spot, but when i tried, nothing happened... That's not a design fault then, is it?

EDIT: oh i need to get wet before touching the right spot?? Why would i even get close to an iphone 4 while wet and sweaty??

Whats the chances of a huge Apple fan not being wet and sweaty whilst holding their new iPhone? I wouldn't write that off as a factor personally.

BRiT

30-Jun-2010, 14:47

Engadget article: http://www.engadget.com/2010/06/30/apple-hiring-iphone-antenna-engineers-for-some-reason/

Three Apple job postings for iPhone / iPad antenna engineers to "Define and implement antenna system architecture to optimize the radiation performance for wireless portable devices." All three were posted on June 23rd, the day the reception issues came to light.

wco81

30-Jun-2010, 15:55

Here's an antenna expert weighing in.

http://www.antennasys.com/antennasys-blog/2010/6/24/apple-iphone-4-antennas.html

He plans to get an iPhone 4.

RudeCurve

30-Jun-2010, 20:44

EDIT: oh i need to get wet before touching the right spot?? Why would i even get close to an iphone 4 while wet and sweaty??

Because you'd want to be looking at porn on the iPhone's high rez Rectina display?:lol:

But then you'd only be holding the phone with one hand so it shouldn't be an issue... :razz:

Scott_Arm

30-Jun-2010, 21:16

I wish I could afford a smartphone plan.

RobertR1

30-Jun-2010, 23:52

http://www.anandtech.com/show/3794/the-iphone-4-review/1

Anand really has the best review out there by far. I'd recommend a full read for anyone considering an iphone purchase or upgrade.

Having used this phone heavily for 5days now, the highlights are easily the speed, display, iOS4, camera, battery life and aesthetics.

The weakness clearly being the signal loss when holding it in a certain manner and speaker phone.

Going from a iphone 3G to this is a huge jump and certainly worth every penny, so far. My usage is about 10% phones, 10% texting, 30% apps, 50% browsing. I went from not using apps at all on my 3G, due to slow performance, to really digging some of the good ones.

wco81

01-Jul-2010, 01:04

I'm kind of tempted too, though I didn't want to pay $70 + a month for it.

Finding that I haven't been using a lot of 3G data. Then again, with the faster new phone, it will probably be able to consume data faster, especially if I stream Pandora in the background or upload higher-res pics and movies.

So I may or may not be able to get away with $15 data plan instead of the $25 one. Also, I just got a Google Voice number so I could use that for SMS. Too bad they rejected the app, especially now with backgrounding supported. Could save as web app possibly.

I barely use it for browsing. Definitely apps. and games. This is why Google is making Android, if people can avoid their display ads by using apps. to get the same info. they do through Google searches.

Xmas

01-Jul-2010, 13:01

http://www.anandtech.com/show/3794/the-iphone-4-review/1
If there's one thing I hope the iPhone 4 display does, it's generate demand for 300 PPI level desktop displays - the era of 110 PPI displays being the norm needs to end now.
So very true.

rpg.314

01-Jul-2010, 13:29

So very true.

+1 :yep2:

wishiknew

01-Jul-2010, 13:38

The anand article make it sound like smaller 1.4 micron pixels in sensors is better than bigger ones.

And until the windows ui and all the apps scale correctly toward higher resolutions, no thanks. Hell my mom runs 800x600 on a 20 inch 4:3 lcd and could only take it from her dead body.

BRiT

01-Jul-2010, 13:42

And until the windows ui and all the apps scale correctly toward higher resolutions, no thanks.

This should be true under Windows 7.

RobertR1

02-Jul-2010, 18:44

london-boy

02-Jul-2010, 18:55

Apple's bullshit explanation.

http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/02/apple-iphone-4-reception-problems-a-software-issue-fix-coming/

This issue has no bearing on the problem with the iphone4's signal loss. All cell phones endure signal loss when held over their antenna's. However, the I4 tends to drop upto 24DB as can be seen here:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/3794/the-iphone-4-review/2

Apple's plan in no way addresses the issue at hand. Moving the parameter for defining bars does not fix the total loss generated by holding the phone. The net loss remains the same. So how does this compliment the new proposal for moving the bars? Easy, you might have 2 bars but still no service if you're holding it wrong.

I enjoy my I4 but I have no tolerance for apple's bullshit, esp when it's a slap in the face like this. Looking forward to them getting sued to the point of recall or handing out free bumpers. I have one on mine and as the graph in the link shows, it works well.

Well i don't want a bloody bumper! I want a phone that's supposed to do what it says on the tin. Final nail in the coffin for me, i'll keep my little BBaby which has served me well for years and will do so for many more.
Apple is borderline ridiculous. So they'll fix the software to show 2 or more bars when there is no signal... Then they'll get complaints that people can't use the phone when there are 2 bars, and what will they do then??
So sad, Apple's behaviour has gotten worse as they become more dominant, just like all the other companies which went from super-cool to super-dodgy (Google anyone?).

idsn6

02-Jul-2010, 19:26

So how does this compliment the new proposal for moving the bars? Easy, you might have 2 bars but still no service if you're holding it wrong.

Apple is borderline ridiculous. So they'll fix the software to show 2 or more bars when there is no signal... Then they'll get complaints that people can't use the phone when there are 2 bars, and what will they do then??

This is diametrically incorrect. People who currently have two bars with negligible signal will potentially show zero bars after the update.

wco81

02-Jul-2010, 19:49

There have been lawsuits filed.

But what's stupid is that all the plaintiffs could return their iPhone 4 for refund so they didn't even wait until the return period was over to file the lawsuit.

If it's a serious problem causing a lot of returns and lost sales, then they'd take more serious action like coating the antenna.

But as it is, it's not clear-cut that even a majority of people are affected -- there are as many people who say they don't have a problem as there are those who claim they've had problems.. This may be just loud wailing on the Internet.

Mize

02-Jul-2010, 20:21

Meh...I just picked up a sweet E72. Symbian is hell-all ugly and disorganized, but it does everything (voice commands, FM radio, trapster, wifi hot spot, tethering over usb, roams in every country, standalone third party email client, hard keyboard etc.) so it's perfect for work. Lame for play, but that's what the iPod Touch and PSP are for :)

Teasy

02-Jul-2010, 20:48

I just don't understant how i can see videos of people showing that the signal completely dies when touching the right spot, but when i tried, nothing happened... That's not a design fault then, is it?

EDIT: oh i need to get wet before touching the right spot?? Why would i even get close to an iphone 4 while wet and sweaty??

Its a phone, you should be able to use it in any situation in every day life. If its raining you shouldn't have to change before you can answer the thing. The way you talk about it makes it sound like its something that people should expect to have to treat with kid gloves, again its a phone!

wco81

02-Jul-2010, 22:16

RudeCurve

02-Jul-2010, 23:50

london-boy

03-Jul-2010, 03:26

This is diametrically incorrect. People who currently have two bars with negligible signal will potentially show zero bars after the update.

Its a phone, you should be able to use it in any situation in every day life. If its raining you shouldn't have to change before you can answer the thing. The way you talk about it makes it sound like its something that people should expect to have to treat with kid gloves, again its a phone!

I'm confused! :(

Mize

03-Jul-2010, 03:34

Still waiting for mine but when I receive it I will see if it has the signal loss issue if I hold it normally. Anyway I had always planned on getting a bumper or even a full back case to protect the phone just in case I drop it so this issue doesn't really affect me either way.

You know what's REALLY strange? After I ordered the iPhone4 from ATT online and upgraded my current plan with a data plan, my CURRENT flip phone's 3G signal has been MUCH MUCH better ever since.:shock::???: I usually get around 1-3 bars but now I'm getting 5 bars on a regular basis...

This seems really fishy as if ATT doesn't want their existing customers who don't have a data plan to get a good 3G signal. I can't explain it. Either that or they just coincedentally added a new tower nearby the same time I ordered the iPhone.:!::lol:

meh.

I've had AT&T since I started traveling internationally quite a bit back in 2003 and had to jettison the far superior services of Verizon Wireless. I haven't noticed any changes in AT&T reception and coverage for voice or data. I don't base this on "bars" because I have several phones that report differently. I base it on call quality, dropped calls and missed calls. AT&T sucks, but they're a necessity if you travel to the far east and Europe and want one number.

RudeCurve

03-Jul-2010, 06:21

I've been pretty happy with ATT's overall signal strength but for whatever reason my current place of residence seems to have really low 3G reception strength when I'm inside of the house. It's fine when I go outside of the house. I doubt it's my phone because other ATT phones used inside this house have the same problem. I did a little research and the newest 3G cell site that was added in my area was just a couple months ago which doesn't explain why my 3G reception got a boost just a few days ago. I'm thinking maybe they recently upgraded something at these cell sites to keep up with all the new iPhones being used around here.

ltcommander.data

03-Jul-2010, 06:41

While Anand's did a thorough numerical analysis, I think someone needs to do a thorough usability analysis between the iPhone 3GS and the iPhone 4. For example, in the end, what does the 24dB drop mean for the ability to place calls between the 2 phones? What is needed is a comparison of signal strength (dBm) between the iPhone 3GS and iPhone 4 at multiple spots in a city.

Is the iPhone 4 consistently higher? Are there cases where the iPhone 3GS has a higher signal than the iPhone 4 and if so, does cupping the iPhone 4 cause a dropped call. If yes, than the 24dB drop does effect usability and is a legitimate regression over the iPhone 3GS. If no, than the 24dB drop is visually disconcerting in terms of signal bars, but doesn't actually effect usability.

Also, are there cases where the iPhone 4 is able to get a signal where the iPhone 3GS isn't? And in these presumably low signal situations, does cupping the iPhone 4 cause a dropped call? If yes, then is this what many people are seeing? Ie. the iPhone 4 is getting a weak signal where the iPhone 3GS previously couldn't, but even for the iPhone 4, the signal is tentative and so is easily dropped, which isn't ideal but is still an improvement.

Also, are there any steps that Apple can take to maintain usability even at low signal, -113dBm conditions? Like can they reduce call quality and increase compression to make the most out of what signal they have without dropping the call? Can they scan, hopefully find a stronger frequency, and quickly switch over while a call is in progress? Can they switch to EDGE while the call is in progress, assuming EDGE may have better signal/coverage? Or as a last resort, can they increase the delay before a call is dropped, so in low signal/intermittent signal conditions, you might get lag or stuttering, but your call won't be dropped? These could all presumably be done in a software update even if the antennae hardware isn't ideal.

RudeCurve

03-Jul-2010, 08:13

itcommander brought up some very good points.

MfA

03-Jul-2010, 09:42

But what's stupid is that all the plaintiffs could return their iPhone 4 for refund so they didn't even wait until the return period was over to file the lawsuit.
How does that work with bundles?

PS. when Tycho from Penny Arcade finds the time to note it doesn't function as a phone I personally believe there is a real problem, just someone I personally trust to not bullshit.

Arun

03-Jul-2010, 10:48

RudeCurve: Few cell sites are added nowadays in existing coverage areas, but what is very frequent are additional carriers in places where traffic is growing but there remains unused licensed wireless spectrum (nearly everywhere but key urban hotspots where more small cells are the only remaining option excluding new developments like 6 sectors/cell instead of 3). AT&T nearly certainly added a 850MHz carrier if your wall penetration improved. On the other hand, it's not impossible it was always there but they're limiting its access to certain subscriber plans - I'm just not certain that's technically possible.

Regarding the iPhone death grip issue, I can also only assume it's worse at 1900MHz than 850MHz but probably still very bad in the latter case. Ironically, iOS 4.0 is said to select the frequency band based on a more complex algorithm taking into consideration more than signal strength. This would probably make it both more likely to go on the weaker signal band for interference/overloading reasons etc. which would make the death grip issue slightly worse - and it would also make it more likely to be on the 1900MHz band, also slightly worse.

There is one thing I do not understand though: why does Apple need 'a few weeks' to fix bar visualization? Unless they want to try to improve the issue at the same time... But I'm not sure how. The best idea I've got is to prioritize signal strength for voice calls at the expense of other factors, possibly even more aggressively than in iOS 3, but keep the iOS 4 frequency selection algorithm for data. It won't do miracles (and wouldn't be completely free in terms of basestation signalling I suppose) but it certainly couldn't hurt either.

wco81

03-Jul-2010, 15:58

Maybe they want to roll out other issues at once instead of just this one.

Also you would think they want to make sure to test this more thoroughly, because if they roll out the fix and it's still a problem for some people, the PR hit would be worse.

Teasy

03-Jul-2010, 15:59

I'm confused! :(

I'm confused, at what my response to you has to do with that other post.

Teasy

03-Jul-2010, 16:01

Phones can't be used in the rain.

Maybe if your hands are a bit sweaty, phones shouldn't be vulnerable to this reception problem.

But soaking wet hands or even out in the rain? Very few people handle a phone under those conditions.

Of course they can, if they couldn't it'd be pointless to even sell mobile phones in the UK :lol:

Seriously, the idea of "Oh its raining, I better ignore that call" is just bizarre to me, I'd never ever buy a phone that couldn't handle some rain.

wco81

03-Jul-2010, 17:18

Mize

03-Jul-2010, 18:06

There are several (expensive) cell phone that are very water resistant. In general, any can be used in a light misty drizzle (aka, the UK 362 days of the year), but only the specialty designs would work in a downpour. without risking a short. Of course if you live in an area that rains deionized water, that's another story.

eastmen

03-Jul-2010, 18:32

A rare design mis-step by Apple, IMHO.

Not rare par for the course.

Will go down with ipod gen 1, 2 mini , nano . Yellow Imacs , imac screens DOA. just to name a few from recent memory.

Apple quality is just as bad as any other companys quality if not more so. They just normaly don't get called out on it because of the fan base they have had in the past. Now that more casuals are getting into the mix they are starting to get called out on it more and more.

wco81

03-Jul-2010, 22:42

From Arstechnica post:

Nokia E71 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amPG52DVQuk&feature=player_embedded) video posted May 26th. Drops to 0 bars with a 3G microcell in the house.

HTC Droid Incredible (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaDE941PzQk&feature=player_embedded#!) video posted May 7th. Oscillates between 1 and 3 bars depending on where it's held. Only has 4 bars max signal.

Nexus One (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2g5J4qPp54&feature=player_embedded#!) video posted Feb 10th. Drops all connectivity when held "wrong." Connectivity resumes after re-acquiring an EDGE connection, but the pause is long enough to drop a call.

Teasy

05-Jul-2010, 17:51

Dripping wet?

They're not water-resistant watches.

Now if you're talking about finding some cover and then taking it out of your pocket to use, or under an umbrella, that's something else.

But there's no indication that iPhone 4 can't be used under those conditions either.

Every phone I've ever owned I've used in any situation neccesary, including rain, never had a single problem.

Still I can understand some people not wanting to use a expensive phone in heavy rain. What I found a bit odd was the suggestion that it would be a crazy idea to even touch an Iphone 4 while wet/sweaty. IMO when a phone gets so delicate/expensive that you're scared to touch it until you wash and dry your hands its no longer very useful as a phone.

london-boy

06-Jul-2010, 21:17

Isn't that what insurance is for? :yep2:

RobertR1

08-Jul-2010, 20:17

Update: phone kicks ass! so fast and smooth. Battery life is awesome. No crashes/reboots yet.

RobertR1

09-Jul-2010, 06:56

Battery life numbers:

From 100% charge to 0
6.5 hours of usage, 29 hours of idle time.

usage consisted of:
Brightness at 65% of max at all time with auto-brightness set to off
Mix of Wifi and 3G
2.5 hours of web browsing
2.5 hours of gaming
1 hour of email activity
40 mins of misc
10 mins of talk time

Not sure how that compares with other smartphones but this is a major step from my 3G and certainly makes me happy.

RudeCurve

13-Jul-2010, 06:59

Received my iPhone today and all I can say is...WOW! This thing is a beauty and it's so thin yet feels super solid. Feels a bit more higher quality than the 3GS which I sold for a friend a few weeks ago. The design looks like the old Titanium PowerBook G4.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerBook_G4

I never owned an iPhone before but coming from a 3G flip-phone user I found quite a few dissapointments with the iPhone when it comes to actual phone features. First thing on the list is there is no Call Rejection phone list. :roll:If that wasn't bad enough there is no way to set the ringer to silent for specific numbers which means I have to create a silent ringer track using Windows Sound Recorder then importing it to the phone.:???:

Second annoying thing is there is no way to transfer basic files to/from PC using WiFi. You can only use a cable with iTunes and it's for music/pictures/videos only.:nope:

Third, tried to send a file from my PC to the phone using BT and the phone isn't able to receive it or respond.:oops:

Fourth I couldn't find a way to add multiple phone numbers to a single contact, for example home phone, business phone, cellphone etc. which means I have to create 3 separate contacts ie Joe Cell, Joe Home, Joe Work.:roll:

Those things aside the screen is amazing. Anyway for whatever reason I kept thinking that a Zune smartphone with the same features as this iPhone would be supercool. I actually really like the angular slim design of the ZuneHD.

Scott_Arm

13-Jul-2010, 07:08

Fourth I couldn't find a way to add multiple phone numbers to a single contact, for example home phone, business phone, cellphone etc. which means I have to create 3 separate contacts ie Joe Cell, Joe Home, Joe Work.:roll:

Hmmm, is the phone storing numbers to the SIM card? I know with my phone, the SIM can only store 1 phone number per contact. If I store my contacts on the phone, then I can have more than one number per contact.

RudeCurve

13-Jul-2010, 07:17

I don't know if it's storing on the SIM or not but when I launch the contacts app there's no way to add more phone numbers to individual names. There's only two slots, one titled "mobile" and the other "iphone". These new iPhone 4s use a smaller micro-SIM btw.

wco81

13-Jul-2010, 07:17

I think they try to use some address book standard -- I want to say vCard -- so that it syncs with the address book on your computer.

RudeCurve

13-Jul-2010, 07:52

Tried a couple of games on the phone...MGS Touch Lite and RE4 Lite...pretty cool but not really liking the directional pad emulation on the touchscreen.

Pressure

13-Jul-2010, 10:37

Fourth I couldn't find a way to add multiple phone numbers to a single contact, for example home phone, business phone, cellphone etc. which means I have to create 3 separate contacts ie Joe Cell, Joe Home, Joe Work.:roll:

Contacts -> (Pick any contact) -> Click the edit button in the top right corner -> Change the phone label to "mobile, iPhone, home, work, main, home fax, work fax, pager or other" for any given phone number.

Quite easy actually.

RudeCurve

13-Jul-2010, 10:52

Contacts -> (Pick any contact) -> Click the edit button in the top right corner -> Change the phone label to "mobile, iPhone, home, work, main, home fax, work fax, pager or other" for any given phone number.

Quite easy actually.

Ok that's a little better but it's still limted to 2 phone numbers. I would think a "smartphone" would be smart enough to have more than two phone numbers per contact as even my 5 yr old flip-phone can store 3 numbers/contact not to mention Call Reject list and BT file transfers from/to PCs and other non same brand phones. To be honest the more I think about it the more it sounds like the absence of a Call Reject feature built-in to the phone is likely due to ATT trying to nickel and dime their customers into adding the $5/month call block service.:roll:

Just found another annoying thing. When receiving emails with attachments I cannot save some of the attachments even though the iPhone can easily read them. I can save it if it's a video attachment but I cannot save it if it's a Word doc.:roll:

PixResearch

13-Jul-2010, 11:04

Ok that's a little better but it's still limted to 2 phone numbers.
When you add the second number a space for a third appears, etc. You can add as many as you numbers to a contact as you like...

PixResearch

13-Jul-2010, 11:12

Just found another annoying thing. When receiving emails with attachments I cannot save some of the attachments even though the iPhone can easily read them. I can save it if it's a video attachment but I cannot save it if it's a Word doc.:roll:

That one's annoying (jailbroken phones can save whatever you like).

IIRC - the trick was to forward the mail to yourself and the attachment gets saved in the sent messages folder. Assume this still works.

RudeCurve

13-Jul-2010, 11:13

When you add the second number a space for a third appears, etc. You can add as many as you numbers to a contact as you like...

Ah ok I got it thanks.:grin:

Found an App called Discover for file transfers using WiFi but seems like it doesn't work with OS4. Anyone know of a good App for transferring files uising WiFi on the iPhone 4?

wco81

13-Jul-2010, 15:45

I think people were using Goodreader on iPad to use with the Dropbox service.

Pressure

14-Jul-2010, 14:07

Just found another annoying thing. When receiving emails with attachments I cannot save some of the attachments even though the iPhone can easily read them. I can save it if it's a video attachment but I cannot save it if it's a Word doc.:roll:

Isn't it already saved in your mail?

I am pretty sure you can even use the search function to locate the word document.

RudeCurve

14-Jul-2010, 20:39

Isn't it already saved in your mail?

I am pretty sure you can even use the search function to locate the word document.
Yeah but it means I cannot delete the email. I prefer to be able to save the attachment separately so that I could do other things with the file and also delete the email. I'm posting this on my iPhone btw. The miniSafari browser is amazing.

Scott_Arm

16-Jul-2010, 18:30

From the conference details it looks like the whole antennaegate is much ado about nothing.

<1 extra dropped call per 100 calls compared to 3GS. Antennae problems affect all smartphones. AppleCare reports fewer complaints about iPhone 4G than 3GS. 0.55% of AppleCare protected iPhone4 users have called about reception problems. 1.7% return rate vs 6% for 3GS.

Free cases for all owners. Apple can't make enough bumbers, so they're sourcing a variety and you'll get to pick. If you already have a case, they'll give you some money as a refund.

Full refund on undamaged iPhone4 within' 30 days of purchase.

White iPhone 4G at the end of July.

July 30 launch for iPhone in many other countries including Canada.

Working on proximity sensor issue.

RobertR1

16-Jul-2010, 18:43

Fuckin embarrasing conference. Is Apple usually this full of themselves?

Scott_Arm

16-Jul-2010, 18:46

I'm just reading a summary. What's the bad stuff?

Scott_Arm

16-Jul-2010, 18:52

Some of the questions they're getting are pretty stupid: "Are you willing to make an apology to investors?"

RobertR1

16-Jul-2010, 18:54

idsn6

16-Jul-2010, 20:16

He spends 30mins basically calling out other companies, not taking blame, showing stats on how it's not an issue...

He spent thirty minutes explaining how and why they have nothing to be blamed for. I don't see what you're taking issue with.

Frankly, the bumper is not a fix, it's a bandaid. One of the biggest draws of the Iphone4 are the aesthetics. The bumpers/case goes a long way to diminishing that.

Then don't get one. If the numbers are correct, then the bare iPhone 4 is in line with the rest of the industry and the case offer is a palliative more for a manufactured controversy than any real issue.

BRiT

16-Jul-2010, 20:18

Not iPhone related, but this seemed to be the nearest suitable thread for iPad issues. In similar fashion to previous cord or battery recalls, Apple may have to do something similar for the iPad. I spotted this thread over at TechReport (http://techreport.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=72721) where a user had his iPad nearly catch on fire.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4138/4799054741_58816faf4a.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4120/4799054549_5b55ae3e3e.jpg

Holy crap! That's melty! It's almost on FIRE!

I grabbed the cord and pulled it out. It was very melty, but more or less in one piece. Oh noes! My precious!

I grabbed up my iPad, and it promptly slid out of the limp rubber shell I normally have it in. I grabbed it! Holy sweet dear zombie of deliverance!!!! I'm not sure how hot it was, but it was a lot. Very a lot. My spine intervened, I let go, and my hand shot into the air.

Grall

16-Jul-2010, 21:31

That's obviously sabotage, and the poster of those images is a lying sack of shit.

There's not enough ampearage in that cord to cause the entire connector to melt and catch fire - FROM THE OUTSIDE NO LESS...

Just another lying attention-seeker on the internet.

As for the aesthetics-breaking aspect of the "bumper", I don't think so personally. It's so small I don't see the problem, as long as you can pick a more neutral color than friggin' ORANGE... :lol: Anyway, Jobs said you could pick from several different cases amiright? Chances are most of them will be better than Apple's bumper, which is just a rim around the outer edge from what I understand.

Personally I would suggest putting the iphone in a pocket and talking into it using a headset, since holding up a cellphone that big to your ear - regardless how nicely designed - just looks ridiculous IMO. :razz: Thus circumventing the antenna issue as well. Furthermore, you won't grease up your screen by touching it with your cheek either, heh...

aaronspink

16-Jul-2010, 21:39

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-20010731-37.html?tag=topStories1

Check out the live blog. He spends 30mins basically calling out other companies, not taking blame, showing stats on how it's not an issue and then his fix is a free bumper to iphone4 users but only until Sept. Basically he turned it into a sales pitch with "buy an iphone 4 now until sept and get a free bumper!"

a: Your widget is broken I want all your money.
b: our widget performs within the parameters of all the other widgets in the industry
a: broken
b: here's data from a sampling of the other widgets in the industry and one of ours, notice they all have the same issue and have for quite a while.
a: oh, trying to bash your competitors now? Why won't you take the blame for your widget not being idiotproof.
b: oh, I give up, here's a lolipop kid, go choke on it.

Frankly, the bumper is not a fix, it's a bandaid. One of the biggest draws of the Iphone4 are the aesthetics. The bumpers/case goes a long way to diminishing that.

There is no fix, there is no fix required. This has been all about people being idiots from day 1.

wco81

17-Jul-2010, 00:49

Apparently they referred to all the PhDs they have and the money they invested in anecheoic chambers.

So much for the snark about them not having antenna engineers.

And he said the Bloomberg article about him being warned was a crock or something like that.

But when he talked about how people want to tear you down if you're at the top sounded like celebrities whining about paparazzi, when those celebs depend on publicity for their success.

It goes with the territory so if you don't want to be subject to shots, be less successful.

RudeCurve

17-Jul-2010, 01:45

I think the people who are unsatisfied with the iPhone antenna "issue" needs to return it for a refund and stop complaining. It's getting to a point where it seems they want to keep the phones for free...lol...yeah keep on dreaming.

Anyway...just downloaded one of the new FREE LED flashlight apps...haha...friggen brilliant! Much better than the old LCD flashlight app on the 3G iPhones.:razz:

Pressure

17-Jul-2010, 11:15

Not iPhone related, but this seemed to be the nearest suitable thread for iPad issues. In similar fashion to previous cord or battery recalls, Apple may have to do something similar for the iPad. I spotted this thread over at TechReport (http://techreport.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=72721) where a user had his iPad nearly catch on fire.

Wow, 1 user out of 3 million+ had his 30-pin connector shorted.

Better recall that sucker immediately!

Honestly, if you want to be scared try to search for the following in a search engine of your choice.

MacBook or MacBook Pro power adapter caught fire.

I've experienced this first hand and Apple promptly exchanged it for me.

Back to the topic.

I can't help but believe this has something to do with cell coverage as well. No matter how I grip my iPhone 3GS (even with both hands) I cannot get the signal to degrade. Of course, here in Denmark we have WAY better cell coverage.

Grall

17-Jul-2010, 23:27

There is no fix, there is no fix required. This has been all about people being idiots from day 1.
That you can "short out" (bridge) the antennas by holding your phone in your left hand shows the iPhone 4 is obviously B.A.D. There's workarounds for it (Jobs: "don't hold the phone that way" User: "but I'm left-handed, dammit!" Jobs: "Oh, alright then. Here's a free bumper kid, go choke on it"), but it doesn't change the fact it's a crap design from the start.

They should have galvanically isolated the antennas during production with some kind of non-conductive surface treatment. Btw, this would have improved signal reception even when holding the phone NOT "like that"... ;)

On the whole it doesn't look as if this issue is the end of the world, partially because the radio transciever in the iP4 seems inherently more sensitive than previous hardware, but why create more problems for yourself with bad design decisions if you don't have to?

Now they gotta deal with a shitstorm of bad PR (partially created by trolling internet apple-haters and clueless ignoramus users) that was completely unneccessary to begin with, and give out free cases. This is gonna cost 'em money directly, and in lost sales and returns. Lesson 101 in how to be successful is to not deliberately fuck up. :)

aaronspink

18-Jul-2010, 10:04

That you can "short out" (bridge) the antennas by holding your phone in your left hand shows the iPhone 4 is obviously B.A.D. There's workarounds for it (Jobs: "don't hold the phone that way" User: "but I'm left-handed, dammit!" Jobs: "Oh, alright then. Here's a free bumper kid, go choke on it"), but it doesn't change the fact it's a crap design from the start.

You can't short out the antennas and they both still work even when you hold it that way. All phones have this issue.

They should have galvanically isolated the antennas during production with some kind of non-conductive surface treatment. Btw, this would have improved signal reception even when holding the phone NOT "like that"... ;)

no it wouldn't. It would of made almost no difference: ~5-6 db. which wouldn't have made much difference.

On the whole it doesn't look as if this issue is the end of the world, partially because the radio transciever in the iP4 seems inherently more sensitive than previous hardware, but why create more problems for yourself with bad design decisions if you don't have to?

And the fact that the antenna has higher gain than the antenna in the 3gs. Its actually a pretty good design quite honestly.

Now they gotta deal with a shitstorm of bad PR (partially created by trolling internet apple-haters and clueless ignoramus users) that was completely unneccessary to begin with, and give out free cases. This is gonna cost 'em money directly, and in lost sales and returns. Lesson 101 in how to be successful is to not deliberately fuck up. :)

What's funny is that there have been youtube videos of people showing thing like this with other phones for MONTHS on youtube and no one noticed. At this point I think its just an issue of the law of large numbers more than anything else.

Grall

18-Jul-2010, 14:40

You can't short out the antennas and they both still work even when you hold it that way. All phones have this issue.
If you put your hand over the gap on the side of the phone you undisputably degrade the efficiency of the antennas more than if you don't put your hand over the gap. That's bad, flawed design.

no it wouldn't. It would of made almost no difference: ~5-6 db. which wouldn't have made much difference.
You contradict yourself in just one short paragraph... Either it would improve reception (which you say it wouldn't), or it won't improve reception (which you then say it would). Make up your mind willya! :)

Anandtech's examination shows that insulating your hand from the antenna clearly improves antenna sensitivity significantly. Holding the phone in your naked hand vs. inside a case produces a more than 12.5db difference. The Nexus One held in a naked hand vs. the iPhone 4 in-hand shows a 9db difference (in the Nexus' favor), showing the iPhone's antenna design to be flawed. Both figures are higher than your claimed difference of only 5-6db I might add...

Its actually a pretty good design quite honestly.
I'm sure it has its merits, but they should still have insulated the antenna; it's just plain common sense. Heck, if you put your hand on a table TV antenna (back when there were still analog TV transmissions) you would have seen the image go all to hell, it's the laws of physics, even Apple's smart visual product design can't break those! :D

What's funny is that there have been youtube videos of people showing thing like this with other phones for MONTHS on youtube and no one noticed.
People might not have noticed it so much with the iPhone4 either if the on-screen signal indicator hadn't had such a compressed dynamic range, but the underlying flaw/problem/issue/niggle/whatever is still there despite Apple fixing the indicator.

Btw, I myself would love to own an iPhone4, I'd buy one immediately if I hadn't bought a phone already last year, and I'm still contractually bound for another 13 months... :???: If I did have an iPhone4 though, I would stick it in a bumper or similar as a workaround to the antenna issue. Also, I'd hate to scratch up those nice glass front and back panels by laying down the phone on a table etc; the bumper would help there by raising the phone slightly up from the surface...

london-boy

19-Jul-2010, 14:53

Cheeky buggers!! (http://www.apple.com/antenna/)

Mariner

19-Jul-2010, 16:08

Cheeky buggers!! (http://www.apple.com/antenna/)

Hmmm. Notice how the background scenery of those pictures seems to differ between the different phones? The videos of the two iPhones seem to have been recorded in a different place to those of all the other phones.

However, no need to worry as I'm sure that Apple wouldn't dream of trying to mislead people by recording some of those videos in an area with poorer signal than others... :evil:

Simon F

19-Jul-2010, 16:23

Not wanting to ruin a good conspiracy theory but....
Hmmm. Notice how the background scenery of those pictures seems to differ between the different phones? The videos of the two iPhones seem to have been recorded in a different place to those of all the other phones.

Or maybe they weren't all recorded simultaneously and the balance of day / fluorescent lighting had changed?

However, no need to worry as I'm sure that Apple wouldn't dream of trying to mislead people by recording some of those videos in an area with poorer signal than others... :evil:
Again, just acting as devil's advocate, what if you had to move somewhere else? If they were adjacent to a tower, would any level of "manual attenuation" make any significant difference to the received signal, and were all the phones using the same carrier?

To me it all just sounds like "tall poppy syndrome".

Rys

19-Jul-2010, 16:46

I didn't notice the lighting, but I did notice that the hand used to hold the phone changed (right/left). Maybe a different human too. Oh noes.

wco81

19-Jul-2010, 16:59

You can find videos on Youtube of other smart phones seeing signal drops, including those which predate the release of the iPhone 4 or even its announcement.

london-boy

19-Jul-2010, 18:31

You can find videos on Youtube of other smart phones seeing signal drops, including those which predate the release of the iPhone 4 or even its announcement.

The bigger conspiracy theory would be that Apple organised those videos and posted them before they even announced the iPhone 4 to cover themselves later and let us go "oooh look, this video was heer even before the new iphone came out!" o_O
:wink:

Scott_Arm

19-Jul-2010, 21:53

You can find videos on Youtube of other smart phones seeing signal drops, including those which predate the release of the iPhone 4 or even its announcement.

Well, videos will show you the bars, which really means nothing. I don't think there's any standard as to how the signal bars are displayed. There's no mystery here. All phones are affected by the way you hold them. It's just a matter of how much they're affected, and whether you would even notice it as a user. Apple is definitely doing damage control here, but I have a feeling people are getting too preoccupied with the bars rather than whether their experience with the phone is actually hindered.

Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.

19-Jul-2010, 22:01

Other phone manufacturers fire back: (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/07/19/phonemakers_deny_steve_jobs_claims/)

The makers of those phones, as might be expected, aren't happy.

"Apple's attempt to draw RIM into Apple's self-made debacle is unacceptable. Apple's claims about RIM products appear to be deliberate attempts to distort the public's understanding of an antenna design issue and to deflect attention from Apple's difficult situation," wrote RIM co-CEOs Mike Lazaridis and Jim Balsillie in a statement (http://crackberry.com/rim-official-statment-response-apples-iphone-4-antenna-propaganda) obtained by CrackBerry.

"The reception problems are certainly not common among smartphones," HTC CFO Hui-Meng Cheng told (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703720504575376350043410396.html) the Wall Street Journal, adding "[Apple] apparently didn't give operators enough time to test the phone."

Samsung VP of mobile communications Hwan Kim released a statement (http://www.samsunghub.com/2010/07/19/samsung-responds-to-apples-antennagate/) that his company "hasn't received significant customer feedbacks on any signal reduction issue for the Omnia II." Kim added that: "Reception problems have not happened so far, and there is no room for such problems to happen in the future.”

Nokia and Motorola weren't specific targets of Jobs' "All smartphone have problems" argument, but they chimed in as well.

Nokia, the world's largest mobile phone manufacturer, issued a statement (http://www.pocket-lint.com//news/34366/nokia-rim-respond-apple-antennagate) obtained by PocketLint that took a dig at Apple's focus on style: "As you would expect from a company focused on connecting people, we prioritize antenna performance over physical design if they are ever in conflict."

Motorola's co-CEO Sanjay Jha told (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704196404575375504084389786.html) the WSJ that his company's testing showed what testers such as those for Anandtech have discovered (http://www.anandtech.com/show/3794/the-iphone-4-review): that the iPhone 4 suffers from greater attenuation than comparable phones when held.

Of all the responding phone companies, however, RIM's response was the most heated. "Apple clearly made certain design decisions," wrote Lazaridis and Balsillie, "and it should take responsibility for these decisions rather than trying to draw RIM and others into a situation that relates specifically to Apple."

aaronspink

19-Jul-2010, 23:18

Well, videos will show you the bars, which really means nothing. I don't think there's any standard as to how the signal bars are displayed. There's no mystery here. All phones are affected by the way you hold them. It's just a matter of how much they're affected, and whether you would even notice it as a user. Apple is definitely doing damage control here, but I have a feeling people are getting too preoccupied with the bars rather than whether their experience with the phone is actually hindered.

There have been several HTC, blackberry, etc handsets that do drop calls when handle incorrectly in areas without strong signal.

aaronspink

19-Jul-2010, 23:23

Other phone manufacturers fire back: (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/07/19/phonemakers_deny_steve_jobs_claims/)

Funny, the only intelligent reply was from Motorola! And here I was thinking that'd made it all the way to shell company status. Guess some engineers are still left around there ;)

RudeCurve

20-Jul-2010, 10:44

Speaking of Motorola, wtf happened to the whole Razr craze? Did they run out of money and talent?

BTW nice find london-boy haha all of those phones got completely OWNED!! Anyway even though the iPhone 4 also dropped signal at least the phone does it with style compared to the other fugly phones.:lol:

Grall

20-Jul-2010, 11:25

Anyway even though the iPhone 4 also dropped signal at least the phone does it with style compared to the other fugly phones.:lol:
It does look GOOD, yes.

Apple has a very strong design aesthetic these days. Well, they've had it for a long time now really, but they still manage to keep their focus in this regard, and that's commendable.

So many cell phones these days have SO many buttons, I just look at my own current "slider" style phone and there's seven push buttons on the front face (not including the number keypad itself), plus a four-direction ring, six more buttons on the right side and another on the left. Sheesh.

Apple's company policies on the other hand really could be a lot better though, and their pricing isn't nearly as user friendly as their design typically is... ;)

wco81

20-Jul-2010, 15:47

They charge what the market will bear. iPhone keeps its price until the next model is introduced a year later.

Droids were offered as buy-one-get-one deals like 3-4 months after release and then outright discounted 50% from the release price.

Maybe iPhone would sell better throughout its lifecycle if it were discounted in the months leading up to the intro. of the next model.

london-boy

21-Jul-2010, 11:08

Well i really don't care about the politics involved and the absolutely crazy amount of coverage this thing has had.
But i can honestly say that in my office, where i'm sitting right now, if i hold my BB Curve i get no signal, maybe one bar if i'm lucky but mostly it's zero - and won't connect to anything, calls or internet. And if i just put it on my desk and leave it there, it shows 2 or 3 bars.
It's something i always noticed and i just thought it was normal - and it is - so i have no idea why Apple got so much stick for it.
At the same time, my colleague's iphone 4 has a lot more signal ("working signal", not just bars, it actually works), whether i hold it or not, in the same spot. Go figure.

london-boy

21-Jul-2010, 11:10

their pricing isn't nearly as user friendly as their design typically is... ;)

Well the price is dictated by the market, demand and supply. :grin:
They sold 1.7M of these things in the first 3 days, 3M as at today. I'm sure that they could have sold them at an even higher price and demand would not have suffered - as they still can't meet demand at the current price.

wco81

21-Jul-2010, 15:48

Jobs came across as ungracious when he said people want to tear you down when you're at the top.

It's absolutely true (not just the criticisms but also all the lawsuits) but he didn't need to say it because it comes across as whining.

And it appeared to people that he was trying to say all phones have the problems, which they do to varying degrees. But the competitors had to deny it.

london-boy

22-Jul-2010, 11:53

I couldn't resist.... i ordered a 32GB one through Vodafone!! And it should come tomorrow, which is strange. I thought they couldn't keep up with demand?

Costing me a friggin fortune!

Grall

22-Jul-2010, 13:28

Make sure you equip it with this safety feature: iPhone Antenna Decal (http://www.hardocp.com/news/2010/07/21/iphone_4_antenna_decal) :lol:

The iPhone4 goes on sale at the end of the month over here, I'm mighty friggin' tempted to get one regardless of the cost (and regardless of Apple's asshattery in general) I must say. It's a great smartphone, with great software available for it and more coming every day. My ISP launched an app a couple days ago that lets me access my cloud backup via the iPhone now for example.

RudeCurve

22-Jul-2010, 13:58

Apple just released iOS 4.0.1 a few days ago that updates the signal bar algorithm.

I'm using Dropbox as my cloud backup app. It's free to use if you don't need more than 2GB, optionally you could pay and they give you more storage. The iPhone is all about the Apps, downloaded a bunch of them already in the few days of owning the phone.

On a side note I finally have a use for the iPod interface on my Alpine car stereo, been using a USB flash drive all this time.

Grall

22-Jul-2010, 14:16

The iPhone is all about the Apps
Yeah, and the ergonomics, features and the form factor, and even the design... It's simply a very well-rounded package.

MS's mobile7 has some good ideas on the useability and ergonomics front with the very nice and clean panels-based interface they designed, but I'm not sure it will be able to compete on the whole with iOS4, which is a much more mature package by now. It certainly can't compete on the apps front, as they have zero apps right now (and no hardware for sale either for that matter)...

I'm also suspicious with regards to how mobile7 hardware will look. iPhone4 is almost ideal in my eyes with regards to its design aesthetics. Very clean lines, no superflous details or unneccessary buttons. Mobile7 hardware vendors would have to work very hard indeed to top that.

wco81

22-Jul-2010, 15:49

I'm looking forward to the release of iOS 4.1, with Gamecenter, so there's a unified login, achievements, matchmaking, all centralized.

And iPod Touch in September should have Retina Display, maybe cameras, certainly the gyro. Maybe a higher-clocked SOC, which they've done in the past.

london-boy

22-Jul-2010, 17:25

Pressure

22-Jul-2010, 17:32

Oh god i'm so stupid, i kind of forgot i had a contract with Orange with an early termination fee :runaway:
So on top of the extortionate price i paid for the iPhone, i have to shell out another £200!
DOH!!!!

Which begs the question, why didn't you just buy the phone unlocked?

Seeing as you are from the UK ...

london-boy

22-Jul-2010, 17:46

Which begs the question, why didn't you just buy the phone unlocked?

Seeing as you are from the UK ...

Cause.... erm...
... DOH!!!!!!

wco81

22-Jul-2010, 17:47

Over $700 unlocked.

Pressure

22-Jul-2010, 18:54

Over $700 unlocked.

Yes, £599 or €699 to be exact.

Grall

23-Jul-2010, 17:08

Btw, this is just for the luls, but I believe this link here carries some relevant information (http://comixed.com/2010/07/15/4-koma-comic-strip-call-me/)...

wco81

23-Jul-2010, 18:06

Some more substance:

http://www.antennasys.com/antennasys-blog/2010/7/14/iphone-4-meets-the-gripofdeathinator.html

london-boy

26-Jul-2010, 10:31

Well i got it next day, so much for supply issues!
Still no signal as i'm waiting for my old number to be transferred, so i can't comment on the whole signal thing.
One thing is for sure, the thing is FAST. I mean, you pretty much get over how gorgeous it is quite quickly - especially when you put a case around it, which i reluctantly did to avoid scratches. But the responsiveness, the seemless transitions and animations between applications, pages, menus, without a hint of slowdown (which are plentiful on the Android phones i've had a look at), is all very impressive. And that, for me, is simply the best thing ever. I'm one of those "60fps always!!!11" kind of gamers, and seeing a phone with such a smooth and fast interface is simply bliss.

Now, back to the prettiness... I actually take the case off at times just to marvel at how pretty my prrreciouuuuussss is. Cases are evil. Actually no, things that can potentially scratch my prrreciouuuusss are evil, forcing my to encase it in an ugly, lifeless thing made of... of... i can't even say it....... PLASTIC!

Somehow the music sounds a bit better on the iphone 4 than on my first gen ipod Touch - using the same headphones.

No comments on the screen, yes it is as beautiful as everyone says and more.
Battery life is most definitely not what i'm used to, but at the same time i'm quite impressed. I've been using it non stop all weekend and although the battery did drain quickly, it didn't drain as quickly as i feared. Still, i will need a serious re-think of my charging habits as i'll end up with a lifeless phone often, which will be a problem if i'm out and need to contact someone.

Any questions?

Grall

26-Jul-2010, 12:28

london-boy

26-Jul-2010, 14:26

Yes - although you may not be able to answer it as you can't make calls yet (and you may not have the relevant headphones either...), I was wondering how well the Apple headset works, you know the one they launched with the latest iPod Shuffle, with the patented, license-fee-attached microchip thingy there was so much online hullabaloo about briefly.

Since the iPhone4 has this thing about signal reception attached to it, it would make sense to use a headset with it instead so you don't need to hold it in your hand. Bluetooth headsets are kinda cumbersome; another friggin' gadget you need to keep charged, and they're not suited to music, mostly being monaural in nature after all and not optimized for HiFi sound quality, so a corded headset would be more suited to the task... The Apple headset has controls on the cord for volume and answering/hanging up a call I believe, and you know, white is the new black these days (unless you want a white iPhone4, in which case you're scroowd, and not in a good way...)

The headphones that came with the iphone are still in the box... i'll start using them when i can actually use the bloody thing as a phone and not as a second ipod.

Also, what's your thoughts about the so-called "retina display"? Do you see any pixel jaggies when holding the phone at a distance where you can comfortably read text?

It really is quite special. Not only the pixels are tiny, but everything is AA'ed so well that it really is quite difficult to see individual pixels, even with your nose attached to the screen. The screen is just a thing of beauty and you need to spend some time with it to really appreciate it (internet surfing for example).

How is the camera? Many phone cams take images that are quite fuzzy along the edges when viewed at their native rez - comes from crappy optics and tiny el cheapo CCD sensors I believe. Especially in low light. So how is this camera comparing, you think, especially in low light? Does the LED lamp make people blue in their faces? :D

Well... It's a phone camera. Nuff said.
Having said that (and sorry but cameras are more my field so this might delve a bit deep) in low light it behaves rather well: pics are grainy, but the 'nice' kind of grainy. A bit like my Panasonic LX3 which has a nice looking lumincance based grain resembling old pictures (ie the noise is the same colour as the subject but some dots are darker or lighter than they should be) rather than chroma noise which gives away that "digital look" that many phones and many compact cameras have (ie the noise dots are green, red or whatever colour it shouldn't be).

The fact that you can 'tap focus' is cool. I thought it would be a useless gimmick but it does in fact help a lot wrt exposure. Of course the iphone doesn't allow you to play with the DOF, but the tap focus helps in high contrast areas where you can tap on the dark part of the image and the exposure will adjust itself to lighten up that area - while losing detail in the brighter areas obviously. And vice versa. Quick and easy and it just works.

Also very, very impressive is the digital zoom, for what it is. Now, to me having 'digital' and 'zoom' in the same sentence is blasphemy, but i have to admit that, for what it is, it's a damn fine digital zoom. I'm guessing the image processing is a fair bit more advanced than other digital zooms i've seen, mainly on other phones as I've never used DZ on my cameras so i'm not sure how it looks like on there.
Another good thing is that it's darn fast, compared to friends' iphones i've seen. Fast to access the camera feature and very, very fast to take a picture. Love that.

Still, it's a phone. Good for taking pics on the go and put them up on facebook or whatever, but i know i'll never have pics that even come close to my 'real' camera (from what i've seen so far and knowing what can come out of my LX3). The good thing is that it's the camera that's always with you, which is clearly an advantage over my camera. Plus if you have a good eye, you'll take some amazing pictures with whatever you have in your hands, so i'm sure i'll get some impressive pictures from my iphone.

I admit, i have taken only a handful of pictures on it so i reserve the right to retract this whole post! :)

wco81

26-Jul-2010, 15:45

You can get cheap external batteries with the dock connector for like $10 at Monoprice.com.

Don't get suckered into the expensive $50+ cases with integrated battery packs.

LX3 is great (they just announced the LX5) but it's not pocketable.

I would be happy if the phone camera did well at taking pictures of bar codes for those apps. which process bar codes.

I'm going to see what they do with the iPod Touch this year. Retina display and cameras would be nice. There are many games which no longer run on my 3G updated to iOS 4. They keep crashing.

london-boy

26-Jul-2010, 16:07

(they just announced the LX5) .

NO WAY!! I've been waiting for this to happen for so long ! :grin:

wco81

26-Jul-2010, 16:58

They upgrade about every 2 years.

I think the moment for higher end point and shoot cameras is passing. The activity seems to be around EVIL cameras -- micro four thirds or the Sony NEX cameras with APS C sensors.

Then they're packing in features like in-camera HDR and panos generated from quick panning at capture time.

Grall

26-Jul-2010, 19:57

The headphones that came with the iphone are still in the box...
Ahh, so it comes with a set of phones. Interesting. I assumed Apple would want you to splurge extra for those... ;) Then again, they are pushing their emusic store and all of that, so it would make sense to let people listen to music with their new phone straight out of the box.

It really is quite special. Not only the pixels are tiny, but everything is AA'ed so well that it really is quite difficult to see individual pixels
Interesting, interesting. I guess the screen works well in sunny daylight as well? Does it auto-adjust the backlight intensity perhaps?

Have you tried any 3D graphics apps? I haven't heard anything about the GPU, I believe the A4 SoC used in the iPad has the same GPU and same clock speed as the iPhone 3Gs, but with a much higher rez screen, leading to some jerky 3D updates at times. The iPhone4 A4 SoC's CPU is upclocked compared to the iPad isn't it, but what about the GPU? The "retina" display is lower rez than in the iPad though, so updates shouldn't judder quite as much even if the GPU clock is unchanged compared to the iPhone 3Gs...

Well... It's a phone camera. Nuff said.
Having said that (and sorry but cameras are more my field so this might delve a bit deep) in low light it behaves rather well: pics are grainy, but the 'nice' kind of grainy.
Interesting. I'm rather tired myself of chroma noise in my phone pictures. I suppose the sensor probably is just as noisy at low light as other phone sensors, but image processing turns the chroma noise into luma instead.

Also interesting that the touch-focus feature alters exposure as well, that's awesome. Even if the sensor dynamic range is kinda naff, at least you can make the best out of a bad situation sort of. :)

I'm sure I'm going to have to buy one of these fuckers now, I'm such a technogadget-geeknerd...

Regardless how good the iPhone4 may be though, I'll never start to like quicktime however. It's the offal of the devil.