View Full Version : Formula 1 - 2010 Season
tongue_of_colicab
12-Oct-2010, 23:35
Probably yes. Though in that case they never explained to rule very well. Atleast not for the normal viewer who doesn't go about reading the actual rule book. Still in some way its akward I think. The rule is there to make sure gearboxes last a x amount of races so you'd think the penalty would be linked to every new gearbox you need but it seems that it is more related to the race weekend.
Here are the sporting regs for gearboxes
For the purposes of this Article only, an Event will be deemed to comprise P3, the qualifying practice
session and the race.
a) Each driver may use no more than one gearbox for four consecutive Events in which his team
competes. Should a driver use a replacement gearbox he will drop five places on the starting grid at
that Event and an additional five places each time a further gearbox is used.
Any replacement gearbox must be fitted with the same gear ratios that were declared under d) below
and will only be required to complete the remainder of the Event in question. Any change to the gear
ratios declared under d) below will incur a further five grid place penalty. In either case a new four
race sequence may start at the following Event.
Unless the driver fails to finish the race (see below) the gearbox fitted to the car at the end of the
Event must remain in it for three further Events. Any driver who failed to finish the race at the first,
second or third of the four Events for reasons which the technical delegate accepts as being beyond
the control of the team or driver, may start the following Event with a different gearbox without a
penalty being incurred.
A gearbox will be deemed to have been used once the car’s timing transponder has shown that it has
left the pit lane.
b) If a driver is replaced after the first, second or third of a four Event period, having finished the first,
second or third Events, the replacement driver must use the gearbox which the original driver had
been using.
c) After consultation with the relevant team the FIA will attach seals to each gearbox in order to ensure
that no moving parts, other than those specifically permitted under d) below, can be rebuilt or
replaced.
d) At each Event seals may be broken once, under supervision and at any time prior to the second day
of practice, for the sole purpose of changing gear ratios and dog rings (excluding final drives or
reduction gears). Competitors must inform the FIA technical delegate which ratios they intend to fit no
later than two hours after the end of P2.
Gear ratios and dog rings (excluding final drives or reduction gears) may also be changed under
supervision for others of identical specification at any time during an Event provided the FIA technical
delegate is satisfied there is evident physical damage to the parts in question and that such changes
are not being carried out on a systematic basis.
e) Other than under d) above, a replacement gearbox will also be deemed to have been used if any of
the FIA seals are damaged or removed from the original gearbox after it has been used for the first
time.
tongue_of_colicab
13-Oct-2010, 09:50
That doesn't say anything about the mclaren case?
There are two reasons I think:
1.)
Gear ratios and dog rings (excluding final drives or reduction gears) may also be changed under supervision for others of identical specification at any time during an Event provided the FIA technical delegate is satisfied there is evident physical damage to the parts in question and that such changes are not being carried out on a systematic basis.
2.)
The 'event' is classified as P3 to the end of the race, so a change for P1 next race could be classified as a second change in the preceeding event and therefore already penalised.
Dr Evil
13-Oct-2010, 13:06
The rule is there to make sure gearboxes last a x amount of races so you'd think the penalty would be linked to every new gearbox you need but it seems that it is more related to the race weekend.
Hamiltons previous gearbox had actually lasted for four races already, but they decided to go five races with it, then they changed their minds and got the penalty, because they changed the box too late.(not sure if everyone knew this :))
So I think that one penalty is enough from this.
itsmydamnation
15-Oct-2010, 12:03
Hamiltons previous gearbox had actually lasted for four races already, but they decided to go five races with it, then they changed their minds and got the penalty, because they changed the box too late.(not sure if everyone knew this :))
So I think that one penalty is enough from this.
I though they had a loss of oil pressure in the gear box?
Dr Evil
15-Oct-2010, 15:04
I though they had a loss of oil pressure in the gear box?
Well that probably is the reason why they changed their minds :) In any case the gearbox that got changed was in its fifth race weekend.
edit: Hmm I'm not so sure anymore about the gearbox. The finnish commentator said on TV that they had already raced four weekends with the old one, but it doesn't seem to add up...Unless this wasn't the first untimely gearbox change for them... Dunno.
Craig over at ScarbsF1 has a blog post about suspensions, specifically pull-rod vs. push-rod.
http://scarbsf1.wordpress.com/2010/10/10/red-bull-pull-rod-suspension-what-is- looks-like-how-it-benefits-aerodynamics/
Holy crap, Red Bull magic at the very, very end of Q3. Top three separated by less than 0.2 seconds. Holy fuck. I thought Alonso had it because he improved on his last lap, but the Red Bulls are just ridiculous.
Top ten of the grid:
Vettel, Webber, Alonso, Hamilton, Rosberg, Massa, Button, Kubica, Schumacher, Barrichello
It was probably lucky for Alonso that Webber got to 2nd place, the track is really dirty as it's new and there's no other classes driving race before the F1 like often there is, and 2nd place is on the dirty side, while 1st and 3rd are on cleaner side
Yes, that's good I think. Also there may be a Canada-type situation regarding the tyres where they may have to change tyres more than once in the race. I cannot wait for tomorrow, I think the race is going to be amazing.
Lightman
23-Oct-2010, 19:08
Don't forget that it might be quite wet tomorrow which will help guys on the dirty side but equally will create one heck of an unpredictable race :wink:
RobertR1
24-Oct-2010, 08:13
Goddamn pussies. Race ffs!
I'm going to sleep. This is crap. I've seen them race in worst condition, this is bull.
RobertR1
24-Oct-2010, 08:38
I'm going to sleep. This is crap. I've seen them race in worst condition, this is bull.
Exactly. The "safety" crap is getting ridiculous in F1. They can't run if it's wet, can't make a hard pass, etc etc etc. They should just hand out points after Qualifying......
Webber out, and another SC. This is boring :(.
RobertR1
24-Oct-2010, 10:07
Poor Sebb. He's the new Kimi. Fastest driver in a fragile car designed by Newey.
Button proving he can't drive in the rain, yet again.
Sutil providing the laughs.
Sutil was fun to watch today, he tried hard. I think Vettel like Kimi is very hard on his car. What a come back by Alonso and Ferrari. Well Brazil GP can't come soon enough.
tongue_of_colicab
24-Oct-2010, 16:10
Exactly why is vettel hard on the car? his engine blew which is hardly his fault. He had a sparkplug failure which isn't his fault. And he had a brake failure which is probably more the fault of the team misjudging cooling needed than him braking too hard.
Anyway they should do this semi night races more often. I really liked the shot when they drove into park ferme. It was quite dark, the cars where all muddy and with all the camera flashes I thought it gave a very nice view.
infinity4
24-Oct-2010, 17:17
Probability wise Alonso has a good chance of engine failure in next two races.
If Alonso is to win the championship, I hope he does it by more than 7 points so that nobody can complain about what happened at Hockenheim.
tongue_of_colicab
24-Oct-2010, 17:45
No he doesn't. Chances are that Ferrari probably managed their engines in a different way than eg RBR. So instead of having 7 engines with a lot of milage and one fresh engine for the last 3 races they just have 8 engines with less milage on them. Anyway I'm pretty sure that not taking production errors (like today with vettels engine) into account all engines in the field are very much capable of doing the milage they have to do.
Lightman
24-Oct-2010, 23:25
Boring as hell at the beginning with all this SC drama and red flagging.
I liked what Lewes was saying over the radio to just get on with race because they raced in worse conditions.
Obviously they had spray issue and a bit of water on track, but if they would start race normally then the gaps between cars would quickly get a lot bigger than in SC procession and therefore spray issue would be minimized.
Anyway today I was surprised that only Mercedes was clever enough to change both car setups to full wet during red flagged period. It clearly gave them big advantage and they were quickly passing cars in front.
Also you could clearly see which cars were working fine with full wet tire. Definitely not:
Renault (most likely suspension setting)
JB McLaren (as pointed by Ted from BBC JB was using different suspension components and settings to LH)
Force India
Shame for Webber, but this makes for even better racing coming weeks :wink:.
Great job Alonso and Hamilton.
MS also finally showing some of the old potential.
It was very boring at the start of course, but when it got going it was incredible.
Webber made a mistake, Vettel didn't but maybe RBR are installing his engine in a wrong way like they did last year. The engine itself is not bad because the Renaults don't really blow up. Maybe RBR's programming doesn't suit the engine, it is too much on the limit.
Liuzzi did a great job, as did Michael Schumacher I think. He showed sparks of his old self when he was testing the limits of the grip under SC conditions. He nailed Kubica where he had researched the grip when the SC came in. Bad luck for Rosberg being knocked out by Webber's mistake. When JB came in for inters and then got out behind that train, I think he gave up. Lewis did a great job, though he outbraked himself in turn one letting Ferrari off the pit-stop mistake they did. Lewis certainly outdrove the capabilities of the car.
Sutil was rubbish today. He's right back into his yo-yo form from the past.
Fantastic result for Fernando, it was insane. This season is amazing.
I caught the last half of the (lengthy) race summary on the BBC, and it's the first bit I've seen basically of this season, but man, I was in for a treat. I hang on to watching in the first place because it was Korea and it was rain, and rain is almost always interesting, but this was insane. It reminded me of a race on Monaco in the rain where I think only 6 drivers made the finish. This wasn't that crazy, but it was still a thrilling ride.
tongue_of_colicab
25-Oct-2010, 00:27
You really missed out this season than as its one of the best in years. Apart from suzuka en the first race which I think were boring action has been going on in all other races.
@Lightman: You think so? If we have to believe Brundle there isn't much difference between a dry and a wet setup these days. They are always running full downforce so its pretty much limited to suspension but he said that won't make much of a difference. Also, can they actually change much on the setup during a pitstop? I don't think they can change things like suspension stiffness and rollbar setting from the outside?
Mercedes guys took off Rosberg's nose when they were red flagged, but who knows what they were doing to the fluids in there. There are certain things you are allowed to do due to changed climatic conditions or whatever they call it.
Alonso made a mistake coming into the box, so he took the blame for the problems with the right-front tyre wheel nut.
Lightman
25-Oct-2010, 23:36
You really missed out this season than as its one of the best in years. Apart from suzuka en the first race which I think were boring action has been going on in all other races.
@Lightman: You think so? If we have to believe Brundle there isn't much difference between a dry and a wet setup these days. They are always running full downforce so its pretty much limited to suspension but he said that won't make much of a difference. Also, can they actually change much on the setup during a pitstop? I don't think they can change things like suspension stiffness and rollbar setting from the outside?
Ted (BBC pit lane reporter) confirmed with Brawn that they've changed both cars to complete wet setup. This included changing of:
- suspension settings, mainly springs (that's why they were taking off fronts of the cars and dismounting brake fluid bottles to gain access to sprigs inside monocoque)
- brake settings and components (including type of brake pads to allow better feel in slippery condition)
- ride height
Oh, and this wasn't during pitstop but when the race was redflagged.
It gave them quite a bit of edge I think. Suspension setup has a big influence on the way tyres are working! Just listen to JB or RK interviews after the race :)
Sutil had brake issue and this was biggest reason of his very poor showing.
Lovely race indeed once it got going :razz:
I think Sutil's brain was the biggest reason for his poor showing.
DarthShader
26-Oct-2010, 00:03
I think Sutil played too much F1 2010 before the race. He was consulting after all. ;)
I bet he told the devs to make Liuzzi crap I've joined Force India and he's finishing 14th or worse making my job of getting the constructors title impossible
No he doesn't. Chances are that Ferrari probably managed their engines in a different way than eg RBR. So instead of having 7 engines with a lot of milage and one fresh engine for the last 3 races they just have 8 engines with less milage on them. Anyway I'm pretty sure that not taking production errors (like today with vettels engine) into account all engines in the field are very much capable of doing the milage they have to do.
Good call.
;)
holy crap, Hülkenberg on pole :shock:
Lightman
06-Nov-2010, 21:04
holy crap, Hülkenberg on pole :shock:
I've just watched his onboard pole lap and it's impressive!
Obviously his car was working in Q3 conditions on the soft compound best, still he pushed like hell to get that time :grin:.
Sadly Williams was not that quick in dry and tomorrows race will be exactly that. I just wonder if he will be passed on the first lap or will fend two bulls, silver arrow and horse till tyre change stop.
Great Q session as usually in Brazil :twisted:
Brilliant work by Hulk, he timed it perfectly and he drove really well.
Grid:
Hülkenberg
Vettel
Webber
Hamilton
Alonso
Barrichello
Kubica
Schumacher
Massa
Petrov
Button
Kobayashi
Rosberg
Alguersuari
Buemi
Heidfeld
Liuzzi
Sutil
Glock
Trulli
Kovalainen
Di Grassi
Klien
Senna
There was a kidnap/robbery attempt on button, he got away ok.
It wasn't a fantastic race, but congrats to Red Bull on clinching the constructors' championship.
Unfortunately, Hülkenberg couldn't stay ahead of Vettel and Webber at the start thus making it basically impossible for Alonso to get close to them.
McLaren and Button made an amazing call to go early on the primes which made him make up a lot of places. Massa had a very disappointing race.
I think maybe Petrov and Liuzzi won't be in F1 after this season. Also Kobayashi wasn't his usual self today. He basically let people overtake him into turn 1.
Red Bull did great today, but I think they may have shot themselves in the foot not swapping Vettel and Webber around. Now Alonso can get P2 if Webber wins and still Alonso will win the WDC. If Vettel wins, Webber second, Alonso third you have the same result. They would have to let Webber through.
tongue_of_colicab
08-Nov-2010, 01:32
Kobayashi had to do a very long run on his tires which made the car hard to drive so he couldn't really do much.
Billy Idol
08-Nov-2010, 09:34
I was really surprised to learn that Red Bull does not team order - it would have been smart from a pure objective point of view!
Now, Alonso has the best cards to win the championship.
Don't get me wrong...although I am not a particular Ferrari fan, I am supporting indeed Alonso for this championship.
For the construction championship, I supported of course Red Bull (being an Austrian myself and all...)
Billy Idol
08-Nov-2010, 09:37
Althoug I think he is a sympatic guy...I think Massa brutally under-delivers and should make his job available to drivers with the "eye of the tiger"!
Compare the performance of Alonso...it is night and day, difference of team mates should not be this huge!
Massa's only chance is to accept being second in the team, accept to be Alonso's wing man only and supporting him 100%
Especially since for next year, it is planned that team order is legal!
chavvdarrr
08-Nov-2010, 13:11
There was a kidnap/robbery attempt on button, he got away ok.? Really? Didn't read anything.
? Really? Didn't read anything.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11704802
Ferrari have hired the men involved for the next race :D
AlphaWolf
08-Nov-2010, 17:41
I was really surprised to learn that Red Bull does not team order - it would have been smart from a pure objective point of view!
Don't be so sure about that (http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/08112010/58/red-bull-expect-vettel-help-webber.html)
Would have been much easier for them had webber been gaining on vettel at the end of the race, but he was staying 3-4 seconds clear through the last 10 laps. I believe webber actually had fuel concerns.
Lightman
08-Nov-2010, 19:16
Don't be so sure about that (http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/08112010/58/red-bull-expect-vettel-help-webber.html)
Would have been much easier for them had webber been gaining on vettel at the end of the race, but he was staying 3-4 seconds clear through the last 10 laps. I believe webber actually had fuel concerns.
His engine was overheating ...
AlphaWolf
08-Nov-2010, 20:53
His engine was overheating ...
That's not what the announcers said, but I guess they could have been wrong.
rendezvous
08-Nov-2010, 22:43
I had a very, very, very hot engine for some reason, so we had to turn the engine down quite a lot.
Source:
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2010/11/11491.html
vjPiedPiper
09-Nov-2010, 02:11
I think it's very frustrating that Ferrari only got a fine for using team orders to get Alonso ahead of Massa earlier in the year, and now Alonso stands a significantly better chance of winning the championship as a result. I think it's pretty obvious that there has not been any team orders going on @ Red Bull, and as a result they are in a much riskier situation in tersm of having the world champion.
Basically if mark comes first in Abu Dabi, and then Alonso ends up winning the championship - it will because Ferrari cheated earlier in the year - and all they got was a stupid fine.
(i'm sure the ppl at red bull are thinking the same thing)
I'm not saying i agree with the rules, but rules are rules, and they should be penalized more strongly for breaking them i think. I'd still love to see Vettel Take Alonso out in the first corner of the next race.
Mariner
09-Nov-2010, 08:21
It would be kind of amusing if Alonso's lead in the championship, won in part by illegal team orders, was cancelled in the last race by Vettel moving to one side to let Webber through, say in the last lap.
It would be kind of amusing if Alonso's lead in the championship, won in part by illegal team orders, was cancelled in the last race by Vettel moving to one side to let Webber through, say in the last lap.
2yHPQSOziDw
EyHUygPQ38E
:grin:
tongue_of_colicab
09-Nov-2010, 10:43
I think it's very frustrating that Ferrari only got a fine for using team orders to get Alonso ahead of Massa earlier in the year, and now Alonso stands a significantly better chance of winning the championship as a result. I think it's pretty obvious that there has not been any team orders going on @ Red Bull, and as a result they are in a much riskier situation in tersm of having the world champion.
Basically if mark comes first in Abu Dabi, and then Alonso ends up winning the championship - it will because Ferrari cheated earlier in the year - and all they got was a stupid fine.
(i'm sure the ppl at red bull are thinking the same thing)
I'm not saying i agree with the rules, but rules are rules, and they should be penalized more strongly for breaking them i think. I'd still love to see Vettel Take Alonso out in the first corner of the next race.
Bullshit. For example, why did they took the wing off Webbers car and put it on Vettels? Horner even said that was because Vettel had more points than Webber at the time! So no team orders my ass. The point with RBR is that some people in Austria rather lose the WDC than let Webber win it. Besides that teamorders are very normal (even if the rules don't allow them) and anybody that keeps whining about how Alonso might win the WDC by ''cheating'' is just a pathetic person.
On the point of ''cheating'', how about all the points Alonso lost because of bad steward desicions? For example the time Hamilton held him up behind the SC and basically screwed his easy podium finish. If you're going to count up all those points it comes up a lot higher than the 7 he got from passing Massa.
Silent_Buddha
09-Nov-2010, 10:56
It would be kind of amusing if Alonso's lead in the championship, won in part by illegal team orders, was cancelled in the last race by Vettel moving to one side to let Webber through, say in the last lap.
Or better yet if Vettel took out Alonso in the first corner before cars start reaching dangerous speeds, ala Senna vs Prost way back when. :p Although I'm sure in this day and age that would end up in significant fines and other penalties and perhaps forfeiting the championship (MFG and Drivers).
Still it would be amusing in a way.
Regards,
SB
Mariner
09-Nov-2010, 12:15
Or better yet if Vettel took out Alonso in the first corner before cars start reaching dangerous speeds, ala Senna vs Prost way back when. :p Although I'm sure in this day and age that would end up in significant fines and other penalties and perhaps forfeiting the championship (MFG and Drivers).
Still it would be amusing in a way.
Regards,
SB
Or even better, Hamilton, realising he can't win the championship, takes out Alonso...
Now that would be funny. :razz:
Or even better, Hamilton, realising he can't win the championship, takes out Alonso...
Now that would be funny. :razz:
This one gets my vote! :grin:
infinity4
09-Nov-2010, 18:35
If it was Vettel-Webber-Alonso going into last 2 laps, Vettel moves over for Webber, then on the last lap Vettel finds out Alonso engine blown out, meaning if he overtakes Webber, he becomes champion. Does that mean Webber will have to move over for Vettel to finish where he deserves to finish or else he will have his contract terminated?
tongue_of_colicab
09-Nov-2010, 19:11
I'm sure Webber won't care if RBR terminates his contract if he becomes WDC. He's already a older driver and not planning on just sticking around for the hell of it (like rubens) so if he's ever going to be WDC, he will have to do it this year.
Webber needs to win. If the Red Bull boss is to be believed, there will be no team orders so either Vettel will have to do it himself (I doubt it, but hey maybe). If they do have team orders, why didn't they do it in Brazil? It would have made it easier.
So if they don't swap Vettel for Webber if that is the order at the last few laps of the race, they will be stupid. If they do swap them, it proves they favoured Vettel because if they didn't, they would have swapped them at the Brazil race.
Go Alonso! :D
RobertR1
10-Nov-2010, 00:50
If Vettel is leading Webber on the last lap and Alonso is 3rd, I expect Vettel to let Mark through without team orders.
If Vettel doesn't and Alsono wins by 7 points or less then it's quite a black mark on the sport.
AlphaWolf
10-Nov-2010, 00:53
If Vettel is leading Webber on the last lap and Alonso is 3rd, I expect Vettel to let Mark through without team orders.
If Vettel doesn't and Alsono wins by 7 points or less then it's quite a black mark on the sport.
So its fine if the driver voluntarily lets him through, but if the team orders it it's terrible for the sport? Just so we're clear.
If Vettel is leading Webber on the last lap and Alonso is 3rd, I expect Vettel to let Mark through without team orders.
If Vettel doesn't and Alsono wins by 7 points or less then it's quite a black mark on the sport.
Nah, it's not really. It is RBR's stupidity which is at fault if Vettel doesn't let Webber through and Alonso wins. If they hadn't crashed in Turkey, this wouldn't have been an issue.
Also Alonso said in Silverstone that he was going to win the championship and he's had a stormer of a second part of the season.
vjPiedPiper
10-Nov-2010, 01:59
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertR1 View Post
If Vettel is leading Webber on the last lap and Alonso is 3rd, I expect Vettel to let Mark through without team orders.
If Vettel doesn't and Alsono wins by 7 points or less then it's quite a black mark on the sport.
So its fine if the driver voluntarily lets him through, but if the team orders it it's terrible for the sport? Just so we're clear.
As stupid as it is, that's how i see things.
Although i never said anything about team order being bad for the sport - just *currently* against the rules.
Bullshit. For example, why did they took the wing off Webbers car and put it on Vettels?
There's a difference between benefiting one of your drivers with newer/better equipment and doing team-orders. One has presedent and is explicitly in the rules, the other isn't. I'm not arguing one or the other, but there is an obvious difference.
Anyway, IMO the race was good until it got ruined by the safety car. Webber was inching closer to Vettel with every lap right up until he was ~1.5 seconds behind and the SC came out with two backmarkers in the way. That brought the gap eventually to over 3 seconds with only a few laps to go. It would have been fun to watch how Webber may have put Vettel under more pressure and see what would have happened. What a pitty.
Last race will be very interesting:
Alonso needs a 2nd place to win WDC or 4th, if Webber isn't winning.
Vettel needs a win if Webber is in second.
Webber pretty much needs the win with Alonso not better than 3rd.
Hamilton only has a chance if Alonso pretty much DNF and wins the race with Webber far down in the points.
I do think however that if it rains, Vettel or Alonso might have the better cards of the lot. I think Hamilton could play a significant role in Vettels chances - that is, if he gets in front of Alonso. Not sure if the McLaren is good enough. If it's a dry race, RedBull look extremely strong.
He probably couldn't have passed Vettel at any point, towards end of the race Webbers engine was overheating and they had to tune it down quite notably
No, basically the race in Brazil was a snoozer. Let's hope the last one will be good.
RobertR1
10-Nov-2010, 18:23
So its fine if the driver voluntarily lets him through, but if the team orders it it's terrible for the sport? Just so we're clear.
Yep. A driver choosing to let his teammate go through is a personal decision and one of sportsmanship. The team forcing and demanding one driver to give way is quite the opposite. The latter can also have a pretty heavy psychological effect on the driver, which I rarely see mentioned.
AlphaWolf
10-Nov-2010, 18:46
Yep. A driver choosing to let his teammate go through is a personal decision and one of sportsmanship. The team forcing and demanding one driver to give way is quite the opposite. The latter can also have a pretty heavy psychological effect on the driver, which I rarely see mentioned.
Yes, if the guy is a selfish prick it will hurt his self esteem greatly, but if he's a team player it has no effect as he will be happy at what his team accomplished.
It really seems to be splitting hairs to me, you either have rules that force every man for himself, or you allow teamwork.
Red Bulls principle coming out and saying they expect vettel to do whats right for the team, but they won't issue orders, to me sounds exactly the same as issuing an order.
RobertR1
10-Nov-2010, 19:38
Yes, if the guy is a selfish prick it will hurt his self esteem greatly, but if he's a team player it has no effect as he will be happy at what his team accomplished.
It really seems to be splitting hairs to me, you either have rules that force every man for himself, or you allow teamwork.
Red Bulls principle coming out and saying they expect vettel to do whats right for the team, but they won't issue orders, to me sounds exactly the same as issuing an order.
You don't get to that level of competition without being "selfish." All drivers have ego's. It's a big part of what helps them get there. Senna/Prost/Schumacher/Alonso etc. are all ego driven.
While the end result might be the same, choose/forced can do much for a drivers ego.
Lightman
10-Nov-2010, 20:39
For me F1 in todays form is a TEAM sport therefore I do not consider team orders to be something bad. I'm one of those voting for removing team orders ban from rule book.
This will create more open and honest environment than we currently have.
So if Alonso wins WDC by 1 point this will be fair by me. I'm rooting for Webber this round TBH because he is more of an underdog (less so than Vettel:wink:), but Alonso drives really well lately so he deserves it as much as any other good driver in F1. I just hope WDC won't be decided by mechanical failure of any of remaining contenders and they will fight it on the track.
RobertR1
10-Nov-2010, 23:41
F1 is a team sport and for the TEAM there is the constructors title. The drivers title does not need to be manipulated.
F1 is a team sport and for the TEAM there is the constructors title. The drivers title does not need to be manipulated.
By that logic, the teams should not provide the drivers with cars.
Silent_Buddha
11-Nov-2010, 00:41
Yes, if the guy is a selfish prick it will hurt his self esteem greatly, but if he's a team player it has no effect as he will be happy at what his team accomplished.
It really seems to be splitting hairs to me, you either have rules that force every man for himself, or you allow teamwork.
Red Bulls principle coming out and saying they expect vettel to do whats right for the team, but they won't issue orders, to me sounds exactly the same as issuing an order.
What? The constructors championship is a team trophy, thus teamwork, thus it doesn't matter where the drivers end up and drivers should help each other to finish high if possible. But doesn't matter where each driver ends up relative to each other.
The driver's championship is an individual trophy seperate from the team trophy. Drivers should be allowed and encouraged to strive for that. Wanting to be the best makes the driver better. I'd suggest that any driver that does not want to win the driver's trophy should just quit and get out of F1 right now as they are doing noone any favors.
Team orders that influence a driver's ability to win an INDIVIDUAL trophy should be punished, IMO. That is pure selfishness by the corporate entity that runs the team.
There's a reason there's 2 different seasonal championships, one for the team and one for the driver.
Any driver that wins the driver's championship due to team orders telling the other driver to back off basically didn't earn that championship.
Regards,
SB
Silent_Buddha
11-Nov-2010, 00:46
By that logic, the teams should not provide the drivers with cars.
In which case a team won't win the team/constructors championship. Way to chop off your own leg in selfishness to make a point.
Regards,
SB
AlphaWolf
11-Nov-2010, 01:07
What? The constructors championship is a team trophy, thus teamwork, thus it doesn't matter where the drivers end up and drivers should help each other to finish high if possible. But doesn't matter where each driver ends up relative to each other.
The driver's championship is an individual trophy seperate from the team trophy. Drivers should be allowed and encouraged to strive for that. Wanting to be the best makes the driver better. I'd suggest that any driver that does not want to win the driver's trophy should just quit and get out of F1 right now as they are doing noone any favors.
Team orders that influence a driver's ability to win an INDIVIDUAL trophy should be punished, IMO. That is pure selfishness by the corporate entity that runs the team.
There's a reason there's 2 different seasonal championships, one for the team and one for the driver.
Any driver that wins the driver's championship due to team orders telling the other driver to back off basically didn't earn that championship.
Regards,
SB
So if vettel lets webber pass him, then webber didn't earn it, right?
As for the constructors, alonso finishing ahead of massa has no effect on the number of constructors points.
tongue_of_colicab
11-Nov-2010, 01:26
There's a reason there's 2 different seasonal championships, one for the team and one for the driver.
The only reason we have a constructors championship is to decide where the money goes. WDC is where the real prestige for the team and drivers is.
In which case a team won't win the team/constructors championship. Way to chop off your own leg in selfishness to make a point.
Regards,
SB
Well, that's hyperbole for you. My point was that if the teams build optimised one-off cars for their drivers, that could be seen as manipulation of the drivers' championship just as team orders can be.
Which is stupid.
Any driver that wins the driver's championship due to team orders telling the other driver to back off basically didn't earn that championship.
Regards,
SB
If you really think this, you cannot follow F1 because your statement involves every single champion ever.
Silent_Buddha
11-Nov-2010, 03:29
So if vettel lets webber pass him, then webber didn't earn it, right?
As for the constructors, alonso finishing ahead of massa has no effect on the number of constructors points.
If he Vettel has to be ordered to move over, Webber obviously wasn't the better driver.
Regards,
SB
If he Vettel has to be ordered to move over, Webber obviously wasn't the better driver.
Regards,
SB
On that day.
Lightman
11-Nov-2010, 12:59
On that day.
I would add to that the issue of building a car for specific driver needs. In case of old Ferrari we had red cars build specifically to suit MS driving style.
This year RB6 was modified mid season to suit better Vettel driving style. Specifically they modified blown diffuser and engine maps so it generates smoother downforce transition going from full throttle to off throttle.
Mark had advantage over Vettel in first half of the season because his driving style could better handle this rear end change of grip.
If you really think this, you cannot follow F1 because your statement involves every single champion ever.
Im sure many drivers won titles without their team mate having to move over, jenson for one, iirc villeneuve as well
infinity4
11-Nov-2010, 22:21
Perhaps if Vettel had to move for Webber, then it is actually fairest thing that can happen to stop arguing about Alonso earning those 7 points without too much effort.
Im sure many drivers won titles without their team mate having to move over, jenson for one, iirc villeneuve as well
Okay, but that is a rarity. Most champions have benefited from team orders.
tongue_of_colicab
12-Nov-2010, 00:07
Im sure many drivers won titles without their team mate having to move over, jenson for one, iirc villeneuve as well
Team orders over the radio? maybe not. But over the years I've seen more than enough cases of one driver conveniently getting past his teammate with well planned pitstops.
Anyway I'm getting kinda tired of the whole 7 points debate. It's useless. If you think its not fair just stop watching F1 because things like these happend since forever in F1. Besides that it was also very logical. Massa had little chance of winning the WDC, Alonso does have that chance. 1+1 anyone?
infinity4
12-Nov-2010, 00:27
So I guess you won't complain if Webber won the WDC because Vettel moved over for him, yeah? ;)
tongue_of_colicab
12-Nov-2010, 01:01
Why would I? If Vettel can't win the WDC and Webber can, than why wouldn't he let him pass? He has nothing to lose by doing so but the team will gain from having won the WDC and even if he doesn't like Webber winning the WDC must be something very special and I doubt Vettel won't move over just so that Webber won't win. I don't see anything wrong with that, just maximizing the results. If F1 really was a individual sport than teams wouldn't be racing 2 cars.
AlphaWolf
12-Nov-2010, 01:08
Why would I? If Vettel can't win the WDC and Webber can, than why wouldn't he let him pass? He has nothing to lose by doing so but the team will gain from having won the WDC and even if he doesn't like Webber winning the WDC must be something very special and I doubt Vettel won't move over just so that Webber won't win. I don't see anything wrong with that, just maximizing the results. If F1 really was a individual sport than teams wouldn't be racing 2 cars.
exactly.
I hope Alonso wins the title, but if he can't, I hope Webber wins. If Webber does win, he will be the second Minardi F1 champion, the first one being Alonso. :D
I am not a huge fan of Vettel, though I admire his speed, but he will also be a worthy champion. I will also think better of him if he sportingly lets Webber through. It will be a gesture of great magnanimity and I am sure Webber will graciously accept it. Vettel will have more chances for the title, I am sure. Webber too but maybe not.
Alonso has been in 4 title battles in the last 6 years, in 3 different chassis, which shows just what he can do. He can do it again if he doesn't win this one.
dizietsma
13-Nov-2010, 17:31
Posted on Autosport forum Lewis running over the camera in the bollard whilst avoiding massa
http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/4364/18929828.jpg
Cracker
What a delectable Q3. Vettel and Hamilton did outstanding lap times, while Alonso pulled out one important lap time getting ahead of Webber on the grid.
Pos Driver Car Q1 Q2 Q3
1. Vettel Red Bull-Renault 1m40.318s 1m39.874s 1m39.394s
2. Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes 1m40.335s 1m40.119s 1m39.425s
3. Alonso Ferrari 1m40.170s 1m40.311s 1m39.792s
4. Button McLaren-Mercedes 1m40.877s 1m40.014s 1m39.823s
5. Webber Red Bull-Renault 1m40.690s 1m40.074s 1m39.925s
6. Massa Ferrari 1m40.942s 1m40.323s 1m40.202s
7. Barrichello Williams-Cosworth 1m40.904s 1m40.476s 1m40.203s
8. Schumacher Mercedes 1m41.222s 1m40.452s 1m40.516s
9. Rosberg Mercedes 1m40.231s 1m40.060s 1m40.589s
10. Petrov Renault 1m41.018s 1m40.658s 1m40.901s
11. Kubica Renault 1m41.336s 1m40.780s
12. Kobayashi Sauber-Ferrari 1m41.045s 1m40.783s
13. Sutil Force India-Ferrari 1m41.473s 1m40.914s
14. Heidfeld Sauber-Ferrari 1m41.409s 1m41.113s
15. Hulkenberg Williams-Cosworth 1m41.015s 1m41.418s
16. Liuzzi Force India-Ferrari 1m41.681s 1m41.642s
17. Alguersuari Toro Rosso-Ferrari 1m41.707s 1m41.738s
18. Buemi Toro Rosso-Ferrari 1m41.824s
19. Trulli Lotus-Cosworth 1m43.516s
20. Kovalainen Lotus-Cosworth 1m43.712s
21. Glock Virgin-Cosworth 1m44.095s
22. di Grassi Virgin-Cosworth 1m44.510s
23. Senna Hispania-Cosworth 1m45.085s
24. Klien Hispania-Cosworth 1m45.296s
All timing unofficial
Tomorrow is going to be amazing. Webber has to overtake. Hamilton must win. Vettel must win. Webber must win. This is going to be super!
AlphaWolf
13-Nov-2010, 19:33
Tomorrow is going to be amazing. Webber has to overtake. Hamilton must win. Vettel must win. Webber must win. This is going to be super!
Hamilton has to do more than win. He has to make sure Alonso crashes into webber or something.
Hamilton has to do more than win. He has to make sure Alonso crashes into webber or something.
Hamilton needs to win above all else. Then there has to be something that happens to the other contenders, but he needs to win.
Dr Evil
13-Nov-2010, 20:01
Lol Hamilton needs to poison the other contenders tonight if he wants to have any chance to win the title :)
infinity4
13-Nov-2010, 20:26
I can't see Alonso not winning the title. He is the only driver that doesn't need to depend on other drivers' results.
dizietsma
13-Nov-2010, 21:13
Whatever happens it will be a great end to a great season. I don't think you need bernies medals system to be honest.
Dr Evil
13-Nov-2010, 22:05
I can't see Alonso not winning the title. He is the only driver that doesn't need to depend on other drivers' results.
He still needs to take the car to the finish line. His engine has pretty long mileage and chances are he does have to push the whole race. Also Hamilton and Webber might try risky overtaking maneuvers, so there is plenty of danger for Alonso tomorrow. What an epic end to the season nevertheless!
infinity4
14-Nov-2010, 00:15
Yeah he used all 8 engines few races ago, when someone like Webber was only on 6.
AlphaWolf
14-Nov-2010, 00:34
Yeah he used all 8 engines few races ago, when someone like Webber was only on 6.
You're assuming he has the same number of miles on all those engines?
tongue_of_colicab
14-Nov-2010, 00:47
You're assuming he has the same number of miles on all those engines?
Thats what I said half a dozen times already but nobody seems to care about that. Anyway I read alonso will use the Bahrain engine for tomorrow and that engine is practically new as they only used in in bahrain and 3 free practice sessions. However that was the engine they switched because it was overheating and after that Ferrari got permission to update their engines. Not sure if they are allowed to change all engines in such a case though.
RobertR1
14-Nov-2010, 04:36
Tomorrow will be awesome. Might skip the DVR and watch it live.
tongue_of_colicab
14-Nov-2010, 14:39
Fucking piece of shit russian screwing up the race for Alonso. Seriously, for a whole season this guy has been making mistakes and crashing into everything he could but today that failure suddenly has to do his best ever. Alonso should just torpedo himself into that shit car a the end of the GP.
RobertR1
14-Nov-2010, 14:49
FUCK YEAH!!! Vettel wins. As I said earlier in this thread, good to see the fastest F1 driver win the drivers title and without any team orders. Hell of a drive by Vitaly Petrov.
Dave Baumann
14-Nov-2010, 15:13
Well, I'd have preferred Webber to have done better as I think there will be plenty more chances for Vettel, probably not so for Webber. At least we have another World Champ on the grid next year - well done Vettel.
Continue using this thread for the end of the 2010 season discussion, but there is a F1 2011 thread here (http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?p=1493882#post1493882) for the build up to 2011, including the immediate tests.
tongue_of_colicab
14-Nov-2010, 15:13
Well, well done Vettel. Hope next year will be as good as this one.
Alonso should just torpedo himself into that shit car a the end of the GP.
Why not we all know alonso has no qualms about cheating
tongue_of_colicab
14-Nov-2010, 15:55
Sure.. But if we start like that how about Button racing a car with a extra hidden fuel tank in 2005?
dizietsma
14-Nov-2010, 16:52
Alonso did look like he was going to torpedo Petrov at the end of the race :)
With hindsight a bad call by Ferrari trying to cover Webber, should have just continued going.
Seb was the fastest driver over the year so well deserved.
AlphaWolf
14-Nov-2010, 18:40
With hindsight a bad call by Ferrari trying to cover Webber, should have just continued going.
Yep that was a complete mistake on the decision to bring Alonso in, they made sure he'd come out of the pit ahead of Webber, but they screwed up letting him come out behind someone who had already stopped.
Colourless
14-Nov-2010, 22:55
Yep that was a complete mistake on the decision to bring Alonso in, they made sure he'd come out of the pit ahead of Webber, but they screwed up letting him come out behind someone who had already stopped.
Only one someone wouldn't have been as bad, but it was 2. If there was only one car in front of him he may have tried pushing just that little bit harder and gotten past. By the end of the race there was 3 cars in front of him. It was a big big screw up. They should have realized what happened to Mark and just left him out. Unless Alonso's tires were completely off, the decision they made was extremely bad even at the time. I'm' guessing they thought that Webber was going to be able to get past the cars in front and then go faster. The way the race went it looks like Webber knew that he couldn't do what was needed and just hung back and took it easy. Not the way I thought the race would go at all.
Congrats, Vettel.
Ferrari did the wrong call on strategy. :(
Lightman
15-Nov-2010, 10:50
Congratz Vettel and RBR!
Ferrari didn't do their maximum and Alonso was destined to struggle behind Petrov because of the deficit in straight line speed. I wonder who at Ferrari thought Fernando can overtake a car with 5km/h higher straight line speed on a track where the only overtaking point is at the end of a long straight?
Oh, I know, they were hoping Petrov crashes as usually :lol:
Brilliant drive from Kubica, from effectively P14 to P5 with two best overtaking moves of the race. All that in a car which struggled for rear end grip all weekend!
Webber after first tyre change realized that his car hasn't got straight line speed advantage to overtake cars in front and just drove rounds without a fight (or he didn't want to aid his team mate for maiden WDC).
Not to forget Button doing perfect weekend, just how much simple change of brake pad material do to his driving abilities!
Hamilton was very quick, but realistically not quick enough to challenge Vettel. Kudos to him for trying his best though!
Great season! Can't wait for beginning of next one!
What a glorious victory for no team orders.
Congratulations to Vettel. What a stunning performance throughout the year. Huge thumbs up to Petrov as well. Hope he'll be able to keep his seat.
Team orders over the radio? maybe not. But over the years I've seen more than enough cases of one driver conveniently getting past his teammate with well planned pitstops.
Comparing a few years ago to this years season isn't quite the same, because of the ban on refueling. A few years ago - you'd often end up with team mates held up behind each other because of different race strategies. For both strategies to work, it's essential that both drivers do the best they can on the fuel load they're carrying. To have a team conviniently have one pass his teammate to make his strategy work therefore isn't exactly the same as having Alonso/Massa (or any other two teammates this year) on the same strategy, the same fuel load, both having track position and racing each other having to order one to let the other by.
Seb deserved the win in the end, but this season was really not the norm. Usually a car as far ahead of the rest of the pack would have meant an easy wrapping up of the season much earlier.
The drivers this season made a lot of costly mistakes, including all the 5 championship contenders. It was Seb and Mark towards the middle of the season, Lewis towards the end and Alonso at the start of the season. All in all everyones mistakes and mechanical failures cancelled out and... the fastest driver (by going by pole positions alone) in the fastest car won.
Alonso at one point stated he wanted Lewis to win the race, something that Lewis was quite surprised at considering their history. ;)
AlphaWolf
15-Nov-2010, 20:42
Alonso at one point stated he wanted Lewis to win the race, something that Lewis was quite surprised at considering their history. ;)
Well, If hamilton had won the race, Alonso would have won the WDC.
That's quite sporting of Alonso.
... :!: And not because of Lewis Hamilton's rather stylish goatee and ear piercing? Shirley not! :lol:
Alonso yesterday
http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/84/samr.jpg (http://img593.imageshack.us/i/samr.jpg/)
Hahaha, Davros. Nice one.
Anyway, it was an amazing season. Every major player had problems during the season, every single one made mistakes. Vettel deserves the championship, Red Bull deserves theirs. Next year will be just as amazing or even better. :)
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