View Full Version : Formula 1 - 2010 Season
Just making the point, it was done to benefit alonso, he has no qualms about cheating or having other people cheat if he benefits.
Just making the point, it was done to benefit alonso, he has no qualms about cheating or having other people cheat if he benefits.
If that is true, it was done to benefit Lewis Hamilton too, and all who worked at McLaren. What really happened was that Stepney was disgruntled and wanted a new job. It is a stupid point.
lewis's didn't know anything about the inside info, alonso wouldn't allow his side to help lewis's side in any way, wouldn't share telemetry, wouldn't share setup's, wouldn't share anything
On a different subject, mike gasgoine mentioned that his boss would like to get rid of the blue flag rule and make drivers fight for every place.
what do you think good idea or not ?
tongue_of_colicab
26-Jul-2010, 21:43
No. If you are slow enough to be lapped you have no business in meddling with the front runners where they are fighting for championships. I can understand his POV. On TV it looks a lot better to have a Lotus fight (block) a Ferrari than having a Lotus move the fuck over for a Ferrari.
I dont think the lotus (for example) would go so far as actively defending his position against a car about to lap it but, he wouldnt compromise his own race either by slowing down or moving off the racing line
tongue_of_colicab
26-Jul-2010, 23:44
Ask Alonso how he feels about that ;)
At any rate their race is not important. They don't even fight for points. If you are fighting for points and the other car is really close than I can understand if you not jump out of the way right away but instead maybe wait one or two corners but if you are only fighting for track position you have no business bothering the front runners even the slightest.
I'm certain Massa could have held him off if he had tried, but he would have been forcing Alonso to slow down. There is no question that Alonso was the faster car.
Who is faster is absolutely not relevenat. Massa was in front and he put himself into that position and deserves a right to fight for his position. It was his position and it was up to Alonso to fight for it, not the other way around.
The rules (39.1) are clear:
"Team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited"
Black on white. There are no ifs, no buts.
Even if there is some merit to why a team as Ferrari might want to break that rule, it still is against the rule. If we didn't have this rule, we'd more likely have Hamilton, Vettel and Alonso fighting for the championship alone, rather than Hamilton, Button, Webber, Vettel and Alonso. In fact, RedBull has every right to be vocal on the subject, after all, they ultimately sacrificied a certain 1-2 in Turkey by having both their drivers collide which would have been avoidable if they could have dictated Webber to move over as cleanly as Massa just did on Sunday.
I find it especially all the more amusing after Alonso's talk about "manipulated race" in Valencia. Oh the irony...
We don't want manipulated races and we certainly don't want justification for what might spice up the championship race. We already had the politics in 2008. Alonso put himself in a difficult position to fight for the championship and in insight after his jump start and other mistakes on the track - he has only himself to blame for.
The FIA has to consistently enforce this rule now. It has not been enforced before and it is very ironic that Jean Todt, Mr. Team Order himself, is at the helm in FIA. He famously flipped a coin for who of his Peugot drivers would win the Dakar rally one year. He orchestrated Austria 2002, Indianapolis 2001 etc.
tongue_of_colicab
27-Jul-2010, 13:55
Actually Todt doesnt directly influence judging anymore like mosley had. Todt changed that. So he won't be judging this directly.
Secondly the manipulation comment is just stupid. Telling a team in a teamsport that they can't make decisions that benefit the team is just weird. Besides that, how do all you manipulation sayers thing about massa moving over for raikonnen so he could win the WDC? and how it happend the other way around the year after to keep Massa in the race? Should Ferrari just have wasted 2 chances at winning a WDC for the sake of one better performance from a certain driver? Seriously, has common sense all but disapeard from the planet?
Dr Evil
27-Jul-2010, 15:47
How do all you manipulation sayers thing about massa moving over for raikonnen so he could win the WDC? and how it happend the other way around the year after to keep Massa in the race? Should Ferrari just have wasted 2 chances at winning a WDC for the sake of one better performance from a certain driver? Seriously, has common sense all but disapeard from the planet?
The difference here is that both drivers still easily have a mathematical chance to win the title and by a far margin. Yes Alonso is closer, but I quarantee you that if the situation was reverse Alonso would not have let Massa pass him, nor would the team even had made such a request. Alonso has to be totally without chances to win the WC for him to let his teammate pass.
Actually Todt doesnt directly influence judging anymore like mosley had. Todt changed that. So he won't be judging this directly.
Secondly the manipulation comment is just stupid. Telling a team in a teamsport that they can't make decisions that benefit the team is just weird. Besides that, how do all you manipulation sayers thing about massa moving over for raikonnen so he could win the WDC? and how it happend the other way around the year after to keep Massa in the race? Should Ferrari just have wasted 2 chances at winning a WDC for the sake of one better performance from a certain driver? Seriously, has common sense all but disapeard from the planet?
The thing is though, it's not a discussion about what is sensible and what isn't. It's about abiding by a clear-cut rule that other teams so far have followed and ultimately has given us the interesting and close battle between Button and Hamilton, Webber and Vettel and to a lesser extend, Massa and Alonso. At this point, 5, if not 6 of these drivers are very much in the challenge for the WDC.
If RedBull had took the liberty to do exactly what Ferrari did on Sunday, Vettel (or Webber) may be further in the lead. Hamilton or Button may also have not come close to taking each other out. Yet, they didn't and we saw one spectacular fight that ended in tears, one that nearly did and another, which was clearly manipulated.
As a fan of the sport, one deserves to see how that "fight" between Massa and Alonso might have ended up. Why is Ferrari allowed to manufacture the results by having the entire team work for one driver while the rest of the F1 teams give their pilots equal chances of victory and risking that both take points off each other?
Alonso's victory is especially bitter, after he started to fume "this is ridiculous" after not being let by by his team mate when he first had a small chance.
It is a clear-cut rule that has never been enforced before, Phil.
AlphaWolf
27-Jul-2010, 17:37
Team orders are going to exist as long as they allow teams with more than 1 car.
rendezvous
27-Jul-2010, 19:58
Take a rain coat :wink:! This alone should add to excitement!
I didn't bring a raincoat and I didn't need it. The weather on saturday and sunday was lovely. We skipped the friday practice and went to the Porsche museum in Stuttgart instead which was our first misstake, we should have gone to the Mercedes museum instead.
The second misstake was too skimp out on the kangaroo TV. It was a mere 70€ for the weekend which had been well worth it. Bring your own ear plugs and 3,5 mm spliters and you can even share one on three persons.
Lightman
27-Jul-2010, 22:57
I didn't bring a raincoat and I didn't need it. The weather on saturday and sunday was lovely. We skipped the friday practice and went to the Porsche museum in Stuttgart instead which was our first misstake, we should have gone to the Mercedes museum instead.
The second misstake was too skimp out on the kangaroo TV. It was a mere 70€ for the weekend which had been well worth it. Bring your own ear plugs and 3,5 mm spliters and you can even share one on three persons.
I was driving through Germany very early on Saturday and it was raining all the time (E34 -Dortmund, Hanover, Berlin, Cottbus) so lucky you! :smile:
It is a clear-cut rule that has never been enforced before, Phil.
Yes, but surely, that doesn't give a team the right to outrightly disobey that rule.
Lets assume there are no further sanctions from the WMSC (due to insufficient evidence) and Ferrari gets off lightly. What if, Alonso wins the champioship by less than 7 points - wouldn't that taint what otherwise would have been a fantastic season?
I guess the scenario is a bit different, when a team mate choses to let his other team mate pass in the last race because he has no chance for victory while the other could potentially win the WDC. But evidently, Massa did not want to give up that win in Hockenheim, he fought for it and at the end, had to yield to the team and swallow his pride. That his team mate is no other than Alonso probably doesn't help either.
No one probably could have blamed Massa if he had parked his car in disgust after having to let Alonso through. I'd be seriously worried that at any of the next few races if he ends up being in front of him, that he will be forced to let him through, perhaps less obviously next time. It's also a dangerous precedent, as other teams might start including more hidden team-orders to balance out their chances.
tongue_of_colicab
28-Jul-2010, 08:55
Lets assume there are no further sanctions from the WMSC (due to insufficient evidence) and Ferrari gets off lightly. What if, Alonso wins the champioship by less than 7 points - wouldn't that taint what otherwise would have been a fantastic season?
No why would it? For example, I don't hear how Senna's WDC is tainted when he literally drove into Prost on purpose on the first corner of the race because that is the only way he could win the WDC.
I get the idea that for you its more a case against Ferrari than anything else.
No why would it? For example, I don't hear how Senna's WDC is tainted when he literally drove into Prost on purpose on the first corner of the race because that is the only way he could win the WDC.
I get the idea that for you its more a case against Ferrari than anything else.
He didn't really drive into Prost, he just drow straight out from a corner being on the inside while Prost was on the outside, forcing Prost out too
(at least if my memory serves me)
Yes, but surely, that doesn't give a team the right to outrightly disobey that rule.
Lets assume there are no further sanctions from the WMSC (due to insufficient evidence) and Ferrari gets off lightly. What if, Alonso wins the champioship by less than 7 points - wouldn't that taint what otherwise would have been a fantastic season?
I guess the scenario is a bit different, when a team mate choses to let his other team mate pass in the last race because he has no chance for victory while the other could potentially win the WDC. But evidently, Massa did not want to give up that win in Hockenheim, he fought for it and at the end, had to yield to the team and swallow his pride. That his team mate is no other than Alonso probably doesn't help either.
No one probably could have blamed Massa if he had parked his car in disgust after having to let Alonso through. I'd be seriously worried that at any of the next few races if he ends up being in front of him, that he will be forced to let him through, perhaps less obviously next time. It's also a dangerous precedent, as other teams might start including more hidden team-orders to balance out their chances.
That has always been the case in F1. Team orders have always been a part of the game. It doesn't give any team the right to break a rule, but when a rule is not enforced it should be removed.
If Alonso wins the WDC this year and Germany stands out as the only team order situation, it won't matter. What will matter is that in that eventuality Alonso and Ferrari will have staged one hell of a fight-back. If there are many more team order situations, it will be tainted. Hopefully it won't come to that.
Let's remember Austria 2002 again. It was round 6 of a 17 round season. Schumacher led the championship. His closest rival was Montoya who he had almost 2x more points than. Barrichello had been faster all weekend, he out-qualified Schumi, he out-raced Schumi and he had to give away the win at the last corner of the last lap.
This is not the same situation at all.
That has always been the case in F1. Team orders have always been a part of the game. It doesn't give any team the right to break a rule, but when a rule is not enforced it should be removed.
Surely, as long as the rule still stands though, it should and must be obeyed? If not, why have rules in the first place?
There are various rules in this years formula 1 season. Some make sense, some don't. As an example: The rule about having to use two different tyre compounds. It's there and beyond for enhancing the "show" (which in turn makes the race more interesting, which in turn increases viewers and ultimately revenues which is why it's good for F1), there isn't much need for it. The same applies to the rule 39.1, which is for banning team-orders. It may not make sense to have it in light of it being a team sport, but it's there to serve a purpose.
If a team doesn't abide by it, it should be punished. Fair and simple.
I'm not arguing this because it's Ferrari, I'm arguing this because it's something that other teams so far have respected and Ferrari by not doing so, have gained a bit of an advantage. Even further, I'd go as far to say it's not the best sportsmanship behaviour and wasn't necessary, given both Massas and Alonsos position in the WDC standings and the stage we are at.
Alonso's behaviour over mic, nor Ferrari's outright criticism about staged and manipulated races doesn't really help their cause one bit.
Surely, as long as the rule still stands though, it should and must be obeyed? If not, why have rules in the first place?
There are various rules in this years formula 1 season. Some make sense, some don't. As an example: The rule about having to use two different tyre compounds. It's there and beyond for enhancing the "show" (which in turn makes the race more interesting, which in turn increases viewers and ultimately revenues which is why it's good for F1), there isn't much need for it. The same applies to the rule 39.1, which is for banning team-orders. It may not make sense to have it in light of it being a team sport, but it's there to serve a purpose.
If a team doesn't abide by it, it should be punished. Fair and simple.
I'm not arguing this because it's Ferrari, I'm arguing this because it's something that other teams so far have respected and Ferrari by not doing so, have gained a bit of an advantage. Even further, I'd go as far to say it's not the best sportsmanship behaviour and wasn't necessary, given both Massas and Alonsos position in the WDC standings and the stage we are at.
Alonso's behaviour over mic, nor Ferrari's outright criticism about staged and manipulated races doesn't really help their cause one bit.
Yes, but I am trying to move the discussion beyond the fact that they broke the rule and on to that the rule as it stands is bad.
Nevertheless, they have been punished and they may be further punished in the WMSC session in September, but I think there will be a discussion about the rule itself up to and during that meeting.
infinity4
28-Jul-2010, 23:02
Even Kimi needed Massa's help to get those 2 vital points to win the championship.
The real question is - what if Massa loses the championship this year because of those points?
tongue_of_colicab
28-Jul-2010, 23:32
What if a meteor crashes into his car and makes him lose the wdc? There is no point in what if's. The fact is he has less points and has been underpeforming alonso for most of the season. If you start thinking like that you could include many other things that could have lost Massa the wdc even if he had those points from winning. For example the reliability problems at the beginning of the season or him struggling with the hard tyre this season. Or do it the other way around: What if alonso would lose because of Massa not letting him pass? You could go on forever like this and end up with every choice being the wrong one. The fact is that in the most likely case Alonso is the one with the biggest chance.
Silent_Buddha
28-Jul-2010, 23:41
Yes, but I am trying to move the discussion beyond the fact that they broke the rule and on to that the rule as it stands is bad.
There are a lot of rules that many think are bad, and even worse than this one that I doubt will be changed. Mandatory 2 different tire compounds. Minimum distance between bottom of car and road to reduce the effects of ground effect. Yada yada yada. This is no different, and is perhaps the least offensive and most clear of all the rules.
Enforcement needs to be uniform however.
Man how I wish for the days long gone. The last top gear episode had a tribute to Senna. I forgot how exciting it was to see drivers live on the edge of tractiong with the back end almost popping completely loose even on straight aways as drivers worked to keep application of power and acceleration in line with available grip.
F1 is relatively boring now-days, IMO. Forcing no team orders is an attempt to at least inject some more excitement into a boring 1-2 race between guys on the same team that have orders that one guy MUST win. If one team has a dominant car, at least allow the two drivers of those cars fight it out. :P
In other word, team orders are great for the constructors and the absolute most boring and frustrating thing for a fan.
Regards,
SB
Colourless
29-Jul-2010, 01:53
Exactly what I feel. The problem with the team order is as a spectator, you don't see the fight between the no 1 and no 2 driver in a team.
infinity4
29-Jul-2010, 02:19
What if a meteor crashes into his car and makes him lose the wdc? There is no point in what if's. The fact is he has less points and has been underpeforming alonso for most of the season. If you start thinking like that you could include many other things that could have lost Massa the wdc even if he had those points from winning. For example the reliability problems at the beginning of the season or him struggling with the hard tyre this season. Or do it the other way around: What if alonso would lose because of Massa not letting him pass? You could go on forever like this and end up with every choice being the wrong one. The fact is that in the most likely case Alonso is the one with the biggest chance.
Well, we don't know anything, and decision was made based on that simply because Alonso had more points. But there is still far to go through the remaining races, and all it takes is a retirement for Alonso to ruin everything, so I don't think people would have been complaining if it was close to end of the season. :wink:
Man how I wish for the days long gone.
Say it after me "we dont need no stinkeen downforce"
also drivers today are too boring, all drivers must before getting their superlicence attend the Eddie Ervine school of diplomacy, sport a handlebar moustache(ala graham hill) wear a smoking jacket and smoke a pipe while driving...
Billy Idol
30-Jul-2010, 06:17
Who is faster is absolutely not relevenat. Massa was in front and he put himself into that position and deserves a right to fight for his position. It was his position and it was up to Alonso to fight for it, not the other way around.
The rules (39.1) are clear:
"Team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited"
Black on white. There are no ifs, no buts.
Even if there is some merit to why a team as Ferrari might want to break that rule, it still is against the rule. If we didn't have this rule, we'd more likely have Hamilton, Vettel and Alonso fighting for the championship alone, rather than Hamilton, Button, Webber, Vettel and Alonso. In fact, RedBull has every right to be vocal on the subject, after all, they ultimately sacrificied a certain 1-2 in Turkey by having both their drivers collide which would have been avoidable if they could have dictated Webber to move over as cleanly as Massa just did on Sunday.
I find it especially all the more amusing after Alonso's talk about "manipulated race" in Valencia. Oh the irony...
We don't want manipulated races and we certainly don't want justification for what might spice up the championship race. We already had the politics in 2008. Alonso put himself in a difficult position to fight for the championship and in insight after his jump start and other mistakes on the track - he has only himself to blame for.
Well said!!
I perfectly agree with you on this!
It is a rule, and all teams have to follow it. If it is so plain obvious, the must be brutally punished so that it hurts them!!
The only other possibility is to allow team order - I am fine with this as well, but then they should accept that F1 gets even more tactical and that the driving on track gets even more in the background...as I said, I am fine with this as well.
But the last Sunday is just ridiculous and and is not the F1 I want to see!!
Yes, but I am trying to move the discussion beyond the fact that they broke the rule and on to that the rule as it stands is bad.
Fair enough, and IMO I think that the rule being bad is very debatable.
If we go back to when the rule was introduced, it was done ultimately because the way Ferrari handled the situation with Rubens and Michael caused an uproar among all the fans and media, eventhough at the time, it was perfectly legitimate.
Due to the uproar (and perhaps because everyone was getting tired of Michaels/Ferraris dominance in F1) they needed to make a change and rule 39.1 came to life.
Ultimately, the rules are dictated by what people want to see. Formula 1 can only be as successfull as the sport is among the people that watch it, attend races and generate the revenue. Without spectators, there are no sponsors which are an essential part of F1.
While you and others might think you're looking at the bigger picture when stating that it's a teamsport and that a team including it's drivers should play to that, there's an even bigger picture at hand.
Judging by the uproar in the media with the Ferrari fiasco at Hockenheim, one can only assume what people want to see: Fairplay, a real race and equal chances among drivers. Realisticly, this isn't going to happen to the fullest - you'll always have a certain degree of favouritism in teams (Vettel/Webber), but team orders where a team orders one of its drivers to give up his position in favour of his most direct competitor is one step further and IMO too far. This can not be good for the sport ultimately.
There's a good write-up by Joe Saward (actually two) that touches on the subject:
http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2010/07/26/some-thoughts-before-hitting-the-road/
(and to a lesser degree: http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2010/07/25/fernandos-biggest-mistake/)
IMHO, the best thing about this years season has been the competition between Button and Hamilton, Vettel and Webber and to some extend Schumacher and Rosberg. The challenge between two drivers in identical cars. This has also led to an extremely close race between at least 5 drivers (4 of those among the same team) - something we haven't had for a long time.
The flexing front wings of Red Bull and Ferrari are interesting. You can really see it on the on-board of the Red Bulls in P1 when they brake from high speed, the end-plates just pop up. Red Bull must have perfected it a while ago, when did Ferrari get this?
RobertR1
31-Jul-2010, 19:04
Holy shit at the Red Bulls. Only a Turn 1 disaster can ruin this for them and mech issues. Ouch at Schumi.
Those Red Bulls are insane. Pure, unadulterated insanity.
Hopefully Alonso can fight them in the race and maybe the Red Bulls will have bad starts again.
McLaren are struggling a lot and so is Schumi. Congratulations to Petrov for outqualifying Kubica for the first time.
RobertR1
01-Aug-2010, 18:18
hahaahahah I love Schumacher. He's such a dick!
Impressive drive from Webber, stupid mistake from Vettel, unlucky Hamilton, strong performance from Ferrari, happy day for Sauber and a big surprise from Petrov sums it up for me. Also happy to see there were no major injuries from that flying tyre. Very lucky!
In related news, Autosport reports that the FIA is to ramp up its wing tests for the Belgian GP. This means that the tests will no longer be limited to testing the load at 50kg but a 100. At this test, the wing is not allowed to flex more than 20mm.
Link: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85817
Awesome race from Webber and Alonso did well to hold off an angry Vettel.
I would say, regarding the Schumacher move, that Rubens has finally gotten a bit of revenge on Schumi by making him look like a rank amateur but I am glad they didn't have a major incident.
I was in Budapest last week on an extended weekend break and I have to say it is a magnificent and beautiful city.
Schumacher closing the door like that was terrible. Watching it on-board with Rubinho had me with my heart in my throat.
Vettel can't convert pole positions, but this time it was because of a silly mistake. Alonso defended well, kept his cool. Congrats to Petrov and Hulkenberg, the Saubers and Barrichello.
I hope in Spa the Red Bull won't be so supreme, because this was insane. Luckily we got some incidents to spice up the race and having Vettel behind Alonso was very tense for me.
Driver of the day? Webber, those laps he pulled when the SC came in were beautiful. I was sitting there hoping Alonso could keep the gap below 19s but Webber just took that race by the horns.
Mercedes GP is the villain of the day, dangerous flying wheel and crazy move by Schumacher.
tongue_of_colicab
02-Aug-2010, 00:32
lol the move Schumacher did was exactly the same as Vettel did a week ago on Alonso and we've seen moves like this more than once this season.
Joe Saward is reporting that Michael Schumacher is going to have a 10 point grid penalty in the next race.
http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2010/08/01/schumacher-is-caned-by-the-fia/
Well deserved.
Dave Baumann
02-Aug-2010, 01:52
http://images.planetf1.com/10/08/800x600/Barrichello-and-Michael-Schumacher_2483054.jpg
That image is nuts.
infinity4
02-Aug-2010, 01:59
I hope he leaves F1 for good of other drivers. He is going nowhere, he won't achieve anything, just leave now... and I hope someone takes his 94 title off him :p
Autosport has a news piece on the FIA announcing they are going to change the load test for testing flexible bodywork.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85817
Dave Baumann
02-Aug-2010, 05:02
http://scarbsf1.wordpress.com/2010/07/30/aero-elasticity-%e2%80%93-red-bulls-front-wing/
Article on flexi wings.
tongue_of_colicab
02-Aug-2010, 12:44
I don't see why those flex wings suddenly are such a big deal. Actually I'm suprised not everybody has them. It's not the first time this happend. Years ago Ferrari also had the flexing flaps on the front wing and if I remember correct that time they also passed the weight test but the wing would just start flexing at higher loads.
I think the big deal is that the wings are clearly flexing but are still passing the FIA's deflection tests which puts loads on the endplates of the wings or pulls them to see what happens. The FIA needs to increase the load and they are entitled to do this because there is a technical regulation which states that they can change the criteria for a load test at any time and they have to do it if they are serious about enforcing the regulations.
In the link Dave posted, there's a comment by someone that the FIA is also interested in the way the RB6's undertray is behaving.
tongue_of_colicab
02-Aug-2010, 18:46
Well yes ofcourse but I'm sure every designer knows those wings generate a whole lot more than 50kg of downforce so flexiwings shouldn't be a case of if a team builds one, but when a team builds one.
What goes on underneath the car is a whole lot more interresting I think. Particulairy because you can't see it.
RobertR1
02-Aug-2010, 19:59
F1 just loves to keep dicking with the rules and regulations so it leads to varied results and a close championship. The racing happens in the politics of the sports than on the track. If there a loophole in the regs, the teams creative enough to use it for an advantage should reap the awards accordingly. As long the loophole does not present a danger, you can close it out the following season. However, the teams have learned that if they fail to use a loophole to their advantage, they can continously whine and get their way. Ofcourse, their excuse and a legit one at that is the lack of testing. Having to use race weekends for testing parts means they can potentially fall behind many race weekends before coming to terms.
I'm not a fan of F1 in it's current state.
I think this season so far has been great. Many different race winners, good stories on Red Bull having the fastest car but cocking it up, McLaren being plucky upstarts making the most of their inferior car, Ferrari starting well, making mistakes, letting their passion cloud their judgement and then building the second fastest car.
I also like Webber's story this season. He deserves this shot at the title, if the Austrians conspire to take it away from him, it will be to their detriment.
Spa is going to be very interesting.
tongue_of_colicab
02-Aug-2010, 20:57
I'm going to spa! :D But I agree this season is great.
@Robert: If you don't like F1 how it is now, did you ever like F1? I don't think it has ever been different for the past 20+ years.
I'm going to spa! :D But I agree this season is great.
@Robert: If you don't like F1 how it is now, did you ever like F1? I don't think it has ever been different for the past 20+ years.
Lucky man.
I think it has never been better to be honest.
I think I have been watching F1 avidly since 1996 or so.
Stopped watching it during the Schumacher Ferrari era as I got bored of it.
Now almost every race is a complete mystery - I even remember when Mansell won almost every single race whilst at Williams with Patrese as his team mate and he gifted Patrese the Monza GP. Boy was that season mind numbling boring.
tongue_of_colicab
02-Aug-2010, 22:37
Lucky man.
Yeah :) But as I'm studying in the south of Holland for me its not hard to get there and I can just travel back the same day. Actually I wasn't planning on going as I think its too expensive and my friends don't like F1 and going alone isn't any fun I think but my friend from Japan will be here for a short holiday and he asked me if I wanted to go with him so that is why I decided to go. Got the cheapest tickets we could get, 150 euro :P Hopefully I will be standing somewhere where I can see a screen because when I checked the Spa website some places don't have a view on a screen.
Fruitfrenzy
02-Aug-2010, 23:17
Does anyone else think that the "unsafe release" incident between Renault and Force India was a direct result of the Renault pit crew getting distracted by a Mercedes tyre bouncing towards them? It seems a little harsh not taking that into account. If you watch the replay the collision happens right at the moment that the tyre is heading towards the garages.
Does anyone else think that the "unsafe release" incident between Renault and Force India was a direct result of the Renault pit crew getting distracted by a Mercedes tyre bouncing towards them? It seems a little harsh not taking that into account. If you watch the replay the collision happens right at the moment that the tyre is heading towards the garages.
A fair point to be honest. It did all happen at once - tyre falls off goes bouncing down the pitlane, split second later the release of Kubica causes the collision.
Didn't really affect the result in any way did it? Kubica was well out of it anyway.
No I think the Renault lollypop man just didn't see the car. I think their punishment was fair (stop go and fine), but Kubica retired so meh.
tongue_of_colicab
03-Aug-2010, 10:19
And even if he was distracted, in that case he just shouldn't have released the car but instead wait untill he was sure it was safe. It seems rather strange that if you are distracted and not sure if it's safe you just release the car and pray nobody is there.
Fruitfrenzy
03-Aug-2010, 11:03
I meant distracted as in "Oh shit, here comes a tyre" resulting in him making involuntary arm movements which Kubica interpreted as a signal to go. I guess if that is what happened Renault would have said.
Obviously the stop-go penalty didn't make much difference to the race but I'm sure Renault would rather not have the $50k fine.
I bet they have insurance for that kind of thing or Gerard Lopez just pulls it out of his butt. :D
James Allen has a blog post up
Why new FIA flexi test won’t clip Red Bull’s wings (http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2010/08/why-new-fia-flexi-test-wont-clip-red-bulls-wings/)
This is a great picture
http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/381/rb6china.gif (http://img709.imageshack.us/i/rb6china.gif/)
Yeah there is no doubt there is movement at speed.
Simon F
05-Aug-2010, 09:02
Yeah there is no doubt there is movement at speed.
Look at the positions - clearly it's just that the car and wing are depressed because they've not got pole.
Look at the positions - clearly it's just that the car and wing is depressed because it's not got pole.
Oh!
I don't know if anyone cares or if some of you already follow this, but there's a new episode of An Aside with Joe up sidepodcast.com
http://sidepodcast.com/category/an-aside-with-joe/
It's a podcast about F1 where users of sidepodcast can post questions that the host asks F1 journalist Joe Saward. It is a good podcast, plenty of humour (if you like dry, British wit) and some good behind-the-scenes info, opinion and stories.
Interesting blog post about the tongue, splitter thing under the nose of the car behind the front wing is up at scarbsf1's blog
http://scarbsf1.wordpress.com/2010/08/09/753/
There is a piece on F1 simulators at Racecar Engineering
http://www.racecar-engineering.com/articles/f1/495544/digital-reality-f1-simulators-revealed.html
(I think it is the McLaren one, it is so secretive)
Also, in the latest Grand Prix+ issue, they are allowed to play with both the Red Bull and the Ferrari simulators.
www.grandprixplus.com
the dudes who make the simulator have pc software available for download
http://www.racer.nl/
Lightman
29-Aug-2010, 10:33
Friday practice over, Saturday qualification over and not a single comment in here:?:
What is happening with you guys:!:
This was one of the most exciting Q1,2,3 I saw! The rain helped as it often does :grin:.
I'm really looking forward to todays race! Webber P1, Vettel P4. The latter seems to be a tad quicker when track conditions are good, but I don't think that's enough to come by Webber (mainly because he has Lewis and Robert to beat first).
McLaren is very quick around Spa so Ham has a big chance to fight for the 1st step of the podium. Button will have a chance to use his gift as to when switch tyres during race and this might give him a podium finish.
Ferraris had a bad Q3, especially Alonso. First corner will be crucial!
Williams is really showing it's good side lately! They develop car very well and now they are comfortable in front of Mercedes. Shame all the upgrades came a bit too late for them.
Finally Renault now have F-Duct and it looks fast! This is Spa, quite a bit engine race and look how close RK was to MW. Bear in mind Kubica is using old engine for this race where Mark and most of the other cards around him (except Vettel) are on new units.
I wouldn't be surprised if in one of remaining races Renault will win. Hard to achieve, yes. Impossible, not anymore.
Yeah, I didn't catch the qualy live but saw the replay, pretty damn hectic with the weather. Looking forward to the race for sure. Go Webber !!
Silent_Buddha
29-Aug-2010, 11:14
Williams is really showing it's good side lately! They develop car very well and now they are comfortable in front of Mercedes. Shame all the upgrades came a bit too late for them.
Williams is using the Cosworth engine right? That's pretty impressive.
Regards,
SB
Dave Baumann
29-Aug-2010, 15:04
Good to see Vettel keep his awesome overtaking record in tact.
itsmydamnation
29-Aug-2010, 15:13
Good to see Vettel keep his awesome overtaking record in tact.
i wonder how long it will take the british to hate vettel as much as us aussies?
NathansFortune
29-Aug-2010, 18:20
i wonder how long it will take the british to hate vettel as much as us aussies?
The FIA need to sort him or RB out. He is a danger to other drivers.
itsmydamnation
29-Aug-2010, 23:16
i recon breaking his figer the next time he does his stupid no.1 shit, that should teach him a good lesson. I also notice when things go bad its "we" when they go well its "I". i dont know about other people but that kind of thing shits me no end.
this describes the way i feel perfectly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mh6pZQX22CQ
this is who that guy is Impersonating
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chopper_Read
By his mid-teens, Read was already an accomplished street fighter and the leader of the Surrey Road gang. He began his criminal career by robbing drug dealers, based in massage parlours in the Prahran area. He later graduated to kidnapping and torturing members of the criminal underworld, often using a blowtorch or bolt cutters to remove the toes of his victims as an incentive for them to produce enough money so that Chopper would leave them alive.[1]
While in Pentridge prison's H division in the late 1970s, Read launched a prison war. His gang, dubbed "The Overcoat Gang" because they wore long coats all year round to conceal their weapons, were involved in several hundred acts of violence against a larger opposing gang during this period. Around this time, Read had a fellow inmate cut both of his (Read's) ears off in order to be able to leave H division temporarily. While in his early biographies Read claimed this was to avoid an ambush by other inmates, by being transferred to the mental health wing, his later works state that he did so to "win a bet". The nickname "Chopper" was given to him long before this, from a childhood cartoon character.
and thats the end of my off topic.
infinity4
30-Aug-2010, 00:45
I think now Red Bull are going to push Mark Webber for the WDC while McLaren Mercedes will push Lewis Hamilton.
I can't see Button outperforming anyone bar his teammate, therefore I think this championship is between Webber, Vettel and Hamilton.
tongue_of_colicab
30-Aug-2010, 11:27
Went to the Spa GP and came back yesterday evening. Had a spot near the end of the straight when race up the hill so I had a pretty good view and I could hear the race when they are on full throttle so the sound was pretty amazing too. Though it wasn't as loud as I thought it would be. At a concert you will feel the sound inside your body. The high pitch engine sound is loud enough to hurt your ears but it doesn't have much punch in it.
But Spa really needs to change some things because while the race was fun to watch the rest pretty much sucked ass.
The state of the cicuit if a mess. Getting to your spot has more in common with mountain climbing that with walking. Most of the paths are muddy with tons of loose rocks everywhere.
But the worst the is actually getting to the circuit. I live only 65km from the circuit, just across the border but getting there takes 4 hours and getting back takes more than 5 hours.
It starts with lousy train transport. The closest you can get to Spa by train is Verviers which is still 20km away. But that 45km train ride already takes more than 1 hour. But that isn't the worst part. Actually getting to the track from Verviers show that all the jokes Dutch people make about Belgians being stupid arn't jokes but are the truth!
So here you are, at the verviers station. You now have to take the bus. OK, no problem you would think. WIth tens of thousands of visitors coming you'd think they would have plenty of special busses to take people straight to the circuit. But they don't. Not on Friday and Saturday. So you have to take the normal bus! On Sunday they had special busses but they had so few that it still took ages to get on one. Once you finally manage to get on a bus you are in for a looong bus ride. The biggest problem is that all the traffic going to the circuit has to come over a single lane road so obviously that just doesn't work and things turn into a huge traffic jam.
OK, I can live with that. But than you arrrive at the circuit. Or rather, about a 45min walk away from the circuit. Yes, you can't actually get anywhere close the circuit. That is just insane. I went to Suzuka too and over there the bus stops infront of the entrance.
The organization is just FUBAR. Scientist always look for the missing link between monkeys and humans but I think we found it already. It are the Belgians. Seriously, you gotta be one big fucking retard to arrange things the way they did. They need to get rid off the single lane road. Which can't be that hard btw because there is a highway only a couple of km from the circuit and they need to make sure the damn busses actually stop at the circuit, not somewhere halfway. They need to lose the 85+ small parking spots and just cut down a part of the forrest and make one bigass parking lot.
....Belgians being stupid arn't jokes but are the truth!
....the missing link between monkeys and humans .....Belgians.
Belgians!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6e-3dfQK7w4) :smile:
Cheers
It was a terrible quali and race for Alonso. First they made the wrong tyre call in Q3, then again in the race and then RB crashed into him and then he spun and broke his front left suspension.
Vettel sucks at overtaking. He is aggressive but unlike Hamilton he is not decisive. I don't like Vettel.
rendezvous
30-Aug-2010, 17:33
Rant about the (lack of) organiozation for getting to Spa and back
The trick is to drive there by car so you are there on thursday or early friday, live at the camping, and go home on monday morning. We had a 50m walk to get to the track from the tent last year. :)
Silent_Buddha
30-Aug-2010, 19:18
Feel bad for Button, he had a chance to give McLaren a 1-2 finish if Vettel hadn't taken him out.
Regards,
SB
tongue_of_colicab
30-Aug-2010, 20:12
The trick is to drive there by car so you are there on thursday or early friday, live at the camping, and go home on monday morning. We had a 50m walk to get to the track from the tent last year. :)
Sure and you are the one paying for my drivers licence, car and camping spot + gear? The ticket alone was already more than expensive enough for me as a student.
The point is that such a large event should not have such bad transport. All the times I went to concerts and festivals in Holland there was alway extra transport within short walking distance available for those coming to the event. Which makes sense because you don't want a large amount of people to just hang around. But apparently things are different over in that non country.
dizietsma
30-Aug-2010, 21:32
Sure and you are the one paying for my drivers licence, car and camping spot + gear? The ticket alone was already more than expensive enough for me as a student.
The point is that such a large event should not have such bad transport. All the times I went to concerts and festivals in Holland there was alway extra transport within short walking distance available for those coming to the event. Which makes sense because you don't want a large amount of people to just hang around. But apparently things are different over in that non country.
I know what you mean, went to Silverstone a few years back and spent half the day queuing either to get in, or to get out.
As for the race, it's not often that a guy t bones another car on the straight during an attempted pass. I think Seb thinks Schumachers and Senna's force them out of the way approach is the way to go. That aggressive jink was too much. How about some finesse?
Vettel is not a stupid man, maybe he will now realise he has to learn how to do this properly? Maybe get help with mind management.
rendezvous
30-Aug-2010, 22:18
Sure and you are the one paying for my drivers licence, car and camping spot + gear? The ticket alone was already more than expensive enough for me as a student.
The point is that such a large event should not have such bad transport. All the times I went to concerts and festivals in Holland there was alway extra transport within short walking distance available for those coming to the event. Which makes sense because you don't want a large amount of people to just hang around. But apparently things are different over in that non country.
You are right that the transports are crap and they shouldn't be for a venue of that size and _prize_.
I can't agree with you more, the story was more or less the same when I was at the Fuji GP three years ago so I sort of know what you're talking about. There was a traffic jam which stopped the busses so we all had to walk the last couple of km to the track not to miss the start. After the race I had to wait in line for the bus back for over two hours and I wasn't back in Tokyo until some time after midnight.
Renault may be considering buying back their F1 team
http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2010/09/01/renault-considering-official-return-to-f1/
Red Bull defend their wings but did they cause Sebastian Vettel crash?
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2010/09/analysis-of-red-bull-wing-flex-before-vettel-hit-button/
James Allen has posted on his blog about how the sport may change in 2013 and a video with Cosworth's take on this.
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2010/09/f1-moves-towards-a-completely-new-formula-for-2013/
It is very interesting. 1.6 L turbo-charged engines with lots of energy recovery and ground effect skirts so that drag can be reduced, I think some posters here will welcome this because it is basically back to the 80s just with 21st century engineering, materials and ideas.
tongue_of_colicab
06-Sep-2010, 17:04
Yeah now only if they would also allow V8 and V12 engines that would be cool ;)
The way the scetch ou the new rules makes it look like a good thing so I wouldn't mind. Ofcourse the engines don't sound like much but hey as long as it makes a nice sound and please no ricer psssssst kind of turbo sounds. Fucking hate that sound. It's the sound of people with no taste whatsoever.
Though how happy is the FIA going to be with the ground effect returning? I mean, the past 16 years they basically did all they could and raise the cars and wings. If you compare the old cars with the modern ones you'd alsmost think they could do WRC with so much ground clearence. Also, if the ground effect returns does that also mean cars with bottom out a lot again? Because that might bring the awsome sparkling of the early 90's back. You wern't just watching a race, but a fireworks display at the same time. Though that will bring in a cost aspect again because I doubt Mr. undertray is going to be very happy being dragged over asphalt for 1.5 hours.
Nothing wrong with v6's as long as they get rid of the turbo's make the engine size 10litres and limit revs to 4000rpm so we get a deep bass rumble ;)
Silent_Buddha
06-Sep-2010, 22:28
James Allen has posted on his blog about how the sport may change in 2013 and a video with Cosworth's take on this.
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2010/09/f1-moves-towards-a-completely-new-formula-for-2013/
It is very interesting. 1.6 L turbo-charged engines with lots of energy recovery and ground effect skirts so that drag can be reduced, I think some posters here will welcome this because it is basically back to the 80s just with 21st century engineering, materials and ideas.
Good news, I'm excited at the prospect of renewed focus on ground effect and reduced focus on Aero. It should, as the article indicates, allow for more overtake chances as your downforce won't bleed off drastically as you enter the wake of the car ahead of you. I could care less about the fuel efficiency benefits. :D This should also provide for a greater influence of driver skill, at least with regards to overtaking. Even with an inferior car, a good driver will have more opportunities for overtaking.
I'm assuming that their energy reclamation will be used to power limited duration electronic boost modules? Not sure how I feel about this one. Could be good or bad.
Either way, these changes might actually convince me to start watching F1 as much as I did prior to Senna's death.
Regards,
SB
tongue_of_colicab
06-Sep-2010, 22:42
Limit boost sucks I think. I won't help racing one bit as everybody pushes the button at the same time. We've seen it with KERS already that KERS vs KERS just equals things out again. It would be far more interresting to allow as much boost as they can get from the systems. This way you also atleast get some truth from the whole hybrid/green F1 bullcrap because now you are really doing your best to get as much energy you can from energy that otherwise might be lost. That is the only way I think such a system should belong in F1. If its essentially just push to pass and for PR reasons that they might as well not waste all the millions on developing such systems that IMHO belong much more in endurance racing than open wheel racing anyway.
I heard they are going to be I4 or something.
4 cylinders in-line, straight-four.
tongue_of_colicab
07-Sep-2010, 14:20
You sure they are going to use a in line engine? Because there hasn't been a in line engine in F1 for decades because I think it gets too heavy because of the long crankshaft. Also V engines are very ridget and good for intergrating into the chassis. Don't know how this works for in line engines.
I don't know, I just read it somewhere.
Anyway, Cowboyashi is being retained by Sauber for 2011. I think he has improved well and he has had some stunning drives as of late. He's getting back to the form we saw in his first two races.
We've seen it with KERS already that KERS vs KERS just equals things out again. It would be far more interresting to allow as much boost as they can get from the systems.
I agree.
Standardize the regeneration/drive components and let each team decide how big a battery pack they want to use. A bigger battery gives a bigger boost capacity and better fuel efficiency, but also adds weight. Let the minimum dry weight of the car be measured without the battery pack.
The added weight would be partly offset by a lighter fuel load at the beginning of a race. Different strategy choices would then mix things up towards the end of a race when fuel loads are low.
Cheers
tongue_of_colicab
07-Sep-2010, 15:44
I'm not sure if that is the way to go. Especially with a standard pack everybody will be using +/- the same amount of batteries I think. Even more if you assume engine capabilities will be close to each other. Now I'm not sure how the power to weigh ratio of batteries is but I'm quite sure teams rather not carry around too much of something. If you can manage the 20% boost on the whole lap and keep the weight down it will be great but with only 1 unit everybody will end up with the same more or less. So I'd like to see more than just 1 system and than just allow teams to try and get as much power as they can out of it.
nutball
07-Sep-2010, 17:31
Not sure why anything in the KERS should be standardised to be honest. The more freedom there is the more likely the engineers will come up with something that might be remotely useful in production cars.
Likewise with engine characteristics, too many prescriptive rules make for less relevant innovation IMO. Just tell the teams they have X kilos of fuel to get a car round Y laps of the track and be done with it.
So Ferrari haven't been punished more for Hockenheim and the FIA has told the Sporting Working Group to review the team order rule after the season.
One the one hand, I'm ok with it because I think the rule is unenforceable, but on the other hand I don't want something like what happened in Austria 2002 to happen again. I don't think Hockenheim 2010 was comparable, not because I am an Alonso fan, but because Massa hadn't lead all weekend like Barrichello had done in Austria.
I think team-orders are fundementally wrong. Either allow it to the fullest, meaning Austria 2002 is ok, or don't allow it at all and enforce the rule to the fullest. In that sense, I'm disappointed with the verdict.
Mariner
09-Sep-2010, 10:11
Well, at least the other teams now know they will only get a $100k fine if they break this rule.
It would be kind of poetic justice if one of the other drivers was to just pip Alonso to the post in the final race of the season due to team orders. I think most of them would be willing to take a $100k fine in exchange for the championship! :wink:
Dr Evil
09-Sep-2010, 11:42
Well, at least the other teams now know they will only get a $100k fine if they break this rule.
It would be kind of poetic justice if one of the other drivers was to just pip Alonso to the post in the final race of the season due to team orders. I think most of them would be willing to take a $100k fine in exchange for the championship! :wink:
While I see your point, It's hardly a team order if something like that happens in the last race.
infinity4
09-Sep-2010, 21:44
So what is the difference between Ferrari arguing team orders are there all the time, and a criminal accusing others who aren't caught? I say none, if you did something wrong then you can't complain for being punished first of all!
So what is the difference between Ferrari arguing team orders are there all the time, and a criminal accusing others who aren't caught? I say none, if you did something wrong then you can't complain for being punished first of all!
If there's a law that isn't being enforced or people have notably broken the law but not been punished, the criminal has a case.
First practice results
1 Great Britain J Button McLaren
2 Germany S Vettel Red Bull
3 Great Britain L Hamilton McLaren
4 Poland R Kubica Renault
5 Germany N Rosberg Mercedes
6 Australia M Webber Red Bull
7 Italy V Liuzzi Force India
8 Spain F Alonso Ferrari
9 Brazil F Massa Ferrari
10 Germany M Schumacher Mercedes
Fantastic! Alonso on pole from Button (with higher downforce and F-duct than Hamilton) and Massa.
Webber, who has had a terrible weekend with water pump problems and engine problems, ahead of Vettel and Hamilton. Webber did well to beat them, very impressive.
Rosberg ahead of Hulkenberg and Barrichello rounds out the top 10.
that doesnt make sense, if lewis wanted a high speed setup the f-duct is supposed to improve speed
He admitted they went the wrong way. It was basically a 50% wager and his side lost.
That's what one gets for trying to squeeze yourself where you don't belong, Hamilton out on his own mistake
It was good to see masa having a go at alonso at the beginning of the race
Wow that was tense before the first stop. TOMA ALONSO! Hooray!
Did you see Vettel running all the race on the option tyre? He changed to the primes on the very last lap. Great tyre.
Webber must be fuming because Hulkenberg went off the track all the time defending his position. It is a miracle he did not get penalised.
dizietsma
13-Sep-2010, 07:46
I think they should have pitted Button after Alonso hoping that Alonso on the harder tyre would take a short time to get up to full temps. Good for the championship though.
I think they should have pitted Button after Alonso hoping that Alonso on the harder tyre would take a short time to get up to full temps. Good for the championship though.
I think that was the plan, but I think they were surprised that for one Button couldn't pull away and two, Ferrari made it clear they weren't thinking of pitting Alonso before Button. After all, the plan was to be able to keep Button out as long as possible, due to him effectively maximizing his performance on the softs due to the high downforce setup. Seeing Vettel do 58 laps on the option tyre though suggest that the tyre was just too good this time.
I actually think Button's best bet would have been to pit like Vettel on the last lap, forcing Alonso to do the same (if he hadn't already pitted). At that point however, the hard tyre might have been quite a bit quicker, giving the first pitter an advantage despite having to warm them up first. But then they could have pitted at the same time too...
Webber must be fuming because Hulkenberg went off the track all the time defending his position. It is a miracle he did not get penalised.
I don't think a penalty for the first two instances would have been justified, since he wasn't really defending his position. I'm amazed he didn't get penalised the third time though, since that looked a cut-and-dried instance of "he would have lost his position had he not cut through the chicane". I doubt whether Webber would have passed Rosberg though, so in the end he got the position he'd have got anyway.
Dr Evil
13-Sep-2010, 09:39
I actually think Button's best bet would have been to pit like Vettel on the last lap, forcing Alonso to do the same (if he hadn't already pitted). At that point however, the hard tyre might have been quite a bit quicker, giving the first pitter an advantage despite having to warm them up first. But then they could have pitted at the same time too...
That wouldn't have worked against Massa though.
That wouldn't have worked against Massa though.
Yeah, you're right. One way or the other, I'm sure Button would have had to at least concede one position, given that he couldn't drive out an advantage. Even so, it was very close indeed and the at the end, Alonso drove a very strong race (so did Button).
In other related news, apparently Heidfeld has replaced De la Rose effectively immediately at Sauber. Not sure if and how this changes anything about Heidfelds role as tyre testdriver next year. It's likely that Sauber might still be looking for a longterm replacement for the 2011 season.
If true, Sauber has realised what the world realised years ago: that DlR is a good test driver, no, excellent test driver, but he lacks severely in the racecraft department. He hasn't raced enough, pure and simple and now it is too late.
Also, Cosworth and Lotus have agreed to end their contract early. This paves the way for Lotus running Renault engines, KERS and gearbox.
Dave Baumann
13-Sep-2010, 16:29
I actually think Button's best bet would have been to pit like Vettel on the last lap..
I was trying to figure out if Red Bull's pit box was before the start-finish line or not; I was half expecting them to actually pit on the very last lap, crossing the finish line in the pit... ;)
tongue_of_colicab
13-Sep-2010, 16:42
Hehe though I'm sure there are rules that tell that you have to do atleast 1 full lap on each tyre.
Lightman
13-Sep-2010, 19:26
Hehe though I'm sure there are rules that tell that you have to do atleast 1 full lap on each tyre.
Correct :smile:
Otherwise half of the teams (pit boxes after finish line) would do exactly that and pit on the last lap.
Anyway very good race from most of the drivers. Button drove really well basicaly fending faster Alonso evry lap till pit-stop. Same goes for Alonso with added dificulty of downforce loss due to dirty air and extra pressure to pass in front of Italian fans.
Dave Baumann
13-Sep-2010, 20:18
Apparently the rule is that you have to exit the pits before the race is over.
Lightman
13-Sep-2010, 23:05
Apparently the rule is that you have to exit the pits before the race is over.
Good to know :grin:
It still prevented Vettel from pitting at the last lap though.
I bet the super-soft and the medium could have been used successfully at Monza instead of soft and hard.
So Kimi Räikkönen is not completely done with F1 after all (maybe)
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86688
And Sauber has confirmed Heidfeld for the last five races
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86691
DlR didn't set the world aflame when he came back to racing. I wonder if this was a mutual decision or if DlR was removed kicking and screaming (I personally think it was a combination, he didn't want to go but he realised he had to do it for the good of the team)
Just preordered the F1 2010 game by Codemasters on PS3 btw. :)
I hope it's as good as it looks. Shame that it doesn't seem to have any safety/medical car phases built into the game, but apart from that, it should (hopefully) deliever quite an authentic experience.
It's got dynamic weather too, though it seems to be a 30fps title. Anyone else preorder as well?
Because I follow the teachings of the Gaming Gods I already have an f1 2010 mod along with every season from 1994 onwards
tongue_of_colicab
16-Sep-2010, 11:51
Yeah but at some point in time its nice to have something that isnt based on a ancient engine.
Will the game have crash damage btw? As in total distruction if you have a 200+kph crash. Btw, did you guys notice that on the BBC Monza preview Jake, Hamilton and his brother had a race with I think the x360 version of this game?
Btw I hope the pc version won't be locked at 30fps or whatever. Anyway, just a week untill release I think?
Yeah but at some point in time its nice to have something that isnt based on a ancient engine.
Will the game have crash damage btw? As in total distruction if you have a 200+kph crash. Btw, did you guys notice that on the BBC Monza preview Jake, Hamilton and his brother had a race with I think the x360 version of this game?
Btw I hope the pc version won't be locked at 30fps or whatever. Anyway, just a week untill release I think?
Yessss... and this is the reason why it popped up on my radar. :smile:
The last F1 game I bought was in the year 2000 (by EA on the PS2) which was extremely rubbish. This looks like the real deal to me and previews/reviews seem to be quite positive, regardless which platform. I heard you can't total your car, but there's a complex damage model and the career mode looks to be quite interesting. I have high hopes.
I have high hopes too. I think it looked really good on the little we saw on the BBC, but I think they should have said what the game was because it was a perfect marketing opportunity.
No............
It angers the gaming gods
If you want something modern 2010 mod is available for r-factor and you wont be limited to an incredibly low res like 720p
Shut up, Davros. I want a new engine and a proper, licensed product with high production values.
but is it worth the price of your soul ?
you'll be playing with a pad I assume ? and how you going to hook up a track-ir to it ?
the pope is in the u.k at the mo and he said "turn thy back of propriety gaming hardware or i'll kick yo ass in painkiller deathmatch"
Simon F
17-Sep-2010, 09:12
Shut up, Davros. I want a new engine
I expect some of the teams do too :razz:
looks like the 2010 game supports dx11 (enabled later in a patch) (blame babelfish for the translation especially "post office effects ")
Like already Colin McRae Dirt 2 sets also F1 2010 on Codemasters' inhouse Renderer, the Ego engine. Owing to the Full floating POINT HDR lighting (FP16) and Ambient Occlusion (environment covering), post office effects such as Motion Blur (Bewegungsunschärfe) as well as clean Shadow and Cube map makes F1 2010 for much ago - above all, if it rains: In the whipping rain Gischt squirts on the visor of our helmet, the car drips for touching genuinly and the tires whirls up water of the distance. The wet lane looks very impressing, the environment is reflected in the wet and on the vehicles.
The rain stops, “drives itself” the distance slowly to drying. If we slip in the gravel bed, stones remain sticking and to loosen at the tires itself while driving. The ground textures are prepared usually knackig sharp and in detail. The sales version works officially with DirectX 9, DirectX 11 is by Patch to be delivered subsequently - nevertheless it is possible on detours to already use DirectX 11. If you set in the “hardware config.xml” in the “own documents” the entry “directx for forcedx9” on “false”, start the unofficial DirectX-11-Modus. This offers a clearly knackigere optics as DX9, but some details are not represented such as indicator monitors. The increase of the Shadow and Cube maps on for example 9.4 GPix (3,072 x 3,072) is likewise possible, the optics improves obviously.
The Gaming Gods appeared to me in a vision and they spoke onto me:
"gather thy disciples of gods own gaming machine from B3D and order unto them to point at phil and laugh heartily upon him for buying a ps3 version and being stuck in the equivalent of dx9"
Oh it is a PC version for me, I am not that crazy.
Hallelujah, praise be to the Gaming Gods
Lightman
18-Sep-2010, 12:03
Pre-ordered it over a week ago on Steam. Now it's available for pre-load - 7.9GB :grin:
Anthony Davidson (ex. SuperAguri F1 driver) was Codemasters consultant and by listening to his remarks during free practises on BBC Red butt(on) some races ago, I reckon it should be a proper simulation if set to maximum difficulty.
He specifically said tyre simulation will be very accurate as well as changeable weather.
Also you will need to answer question from press after the race (in career mode) and depending on your selections it will affect your ability to get sponsorship and overlay driver/team image!!
Bumping in other drivers can make them bump into your car more frequently as well :). Sort of making 'friends' among your opponents.
Can't wait to race on new Korean track :twisted: as well as all the current venues:!:
The cars are far too "sturdy" even under full damage apparently, as in, they don't break easily enough
I hear that you have race engineer speak to you during races... :idea:
hmm... I wonder if they have Rob Smedley's "Alonso is faster than you. Can you confirm you understand this message?" when playing as Massa in the game... :twisted:
"Felipe, baby: Alonso. Is faster. Than. You." :D
I am looking forward to the game
RobertR1
19-Sep-2010, 22:15
Prince of Persia. 10/10. The best unintentional action spoof movie I have seen in some time. Poor Jake was the only one trying hard in the movie. The rest clearly knew what the outcome was going to be like.
Are you a bit confused RobertR1
Lightman
19-Sep-2010, 23:52
Are you a bit confused RobertR1
Looks like he wondered into wrong thread somehow :razz:
RobertR1
20-Sep-2010, 01:21
lol oops! You win this round tabbed browsing!
Joe Saward has some interesting musings about medals in F1 and why Bernie is so hot for them
http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2010/09/23/bernie-f1-medals-and-the-olympic-games/
tongue_of_colicab
24-Sep-2010, 06:58
Anybody already played the F1 game btw? I think its pretty sweet.
Anybody already played the F1 game btw? I think its pretty sweet.
I did few laps yesterday, first findings:
- Despite the fact it's been probably 10+ years since I had a wheel+pedals last time, "medium difficulty" is ridicilously easy - I did one solid qualifying lap on Lotus and ended up on pole position. Seriously wtf? (Bahrain)
- Using the camera view "above the helmet" makes the game even more easy, there's no way one could make any mistakes from that view
So I suppose it's expert difficulty today and hoping there's challenge this time, so I'll qualify around where I should with Lotus
My copy only just got dispatched yesterday, so I'm hoping to receive my copy by mid next week. Thanks for the impressions, really looking forward to this one.
Kaotik: I assume you are refering to the AI difficulty. Pole in a Lotus doesn't quite sound right. I'm really hoping for a realistic game in that sense, with the new teams usually going out in Q1 with the one or two exceptions in Q2.
Anyway, P1 is underway in Singapore (wet/drying track, after some rain before the session) and I'm looking forward to the results.
I'm especially interested to find out, how
- the McLaren behaves on this track and if they have improved their downforce levels
- the RedBull performs after the regulations have been changed
- Heidfeld performs relative to Kobayashi
- Alonso/Ferrari perform and if Massa's doing anything suspicious like checking the track for convinient places to crash into... :twisted:
tongue_of_colicab
24-Sep-2010, 12:34
I had the same thing, the first race is very easy. But is you turn the driver aids off it gets harder in the following races. I got the idea that the more races you do, the better the AI gets. I also had it easy in the first race but I'm at the 4th race now and I'm struggeling to meet the Quali expectations. That is on experienced with only ABS on and playing with the 360 controller.
Btw, something I didn't notice in the options menu first is that you can actually scroll down and also turn on things like tyre simulation which initially are turned off.
As for the racing, the controlling of the car doesn't seem to be that hard. There is enough grip most of the time assuming you are on the right tyres with the right level of downforce. For me the biggest problem is the accelerating out of slow corners. That is where I have the most trouble and spin. Spinning sucks btw because you can't just give full throttle to turn you in de right direction again so it takes a lot more time than it should. Though maybe it is possible if you have manual shifting but as I never managed to get anywhere decent at shifting manual in any game I'm not even going to bother to try.
I had the same thing, the first race is very easy. But is you turn the driver aids off it gets harder in the following races. I got the idea that the more races you do, the better the AI gets. I also had it easy in the first race but I'm at the 4th race now and I'm struggeling to meet the Quali expectations. That is on experienced with only ABS on and playing with the 360 controller.
Only driver aids I'm using IIRC is the "braking line"
Btw, something I didn't notice in the options menu first is that you can actually scroll down and also turn on things like tyre simulation which initially are turned off.
Say what now? I have to check that :D
[
There's a problem with tyres puncturing at highly abrasive tracks. Try Sepang, and push for qualifying. I used all my tyres up and had only wets and inters left for practice. :/
tongue_of_colicab
24-Sep-2010, 19:30
I get the feeling the game is a fail when it comes to anything but the racing. For example I keep hearing my engineer tell me that I should take a look at my teammates setup as he is faster. But when I come in the pits there is no way to actually see his setup! Also it seems to quick setup is a general setup and not track specific. Now I might be wrong but I just get that feeling. Also I think its stupid your engineer doesn't give you any info on what might be a good setup for a track. Basically you'd think full dry for a dry track is fastest but I get the feeling this is not the case. Anyway the game doesn't give any info at all on what might be good or not which is just plain retarded in a F1 game.
Also the whole rule system is crazy. I think i'm gonna turn it off because you always get fucked. AI breaks way to early? penalty for you. AI crashes in to back of you? You get a penalty for blocking. Have to return to track by actually driving backwards because you can't do spins? You get a penalty. You don't get penalty's because you really drive bad but because the game doesn't give you any other option.
Yeah, they have to go over it some. Also, driving with keyboard (hey, don't kill me) is what I think is the issue with my punctures. Since my throttle is digital, I can't feed it so I am just on or off and nothing in between and that kills my tyres and I spin and whatever.
Quali was a thriller. It was so close, Vettel couldn't nail the lap and Alonso is on pole. A fantastic session proves how good this quali format is. Disaster for Massa, stopping out on track in Q1.
Top five is the top five in the championship, in this order: Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton, Button, Webber.
Amazing. Go Fernando! Go Alonso!
Yeah really enjoyed the quali and awesome starting grid. I hope Webber can pull something out, but Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton, those three are really hot headed so they'll probably take each other out given the opportunity.
And Hamilton crashes himself out again by kamikaze overtaking attempt
tongue_of_colicab
26-Sep-2010, 15:15
Lotus' might not be the fastest, but they certainly burn up nicely :P
With all the reliable engines these days its nice to see a good old fire again.
And Hamilton crashes himself out again by kamikaze overtaking attempt
I don't think there was anything "kamikaze" about that overtaking attempt.
tongue_of_colicab
26-Sep-2010, 16:08
I agree. Though it was risky as he should have left Webber more space. Basically he cut off Webber's space to brake so he could either go into the wall or Hamilton. Maybe it wasn't too smart of a move but certainly not kamikaze.
chavvdarrr
26-Sep-2010, 16:15
I agree. Though it was risky as he should have left Webber more space. Basically he cut off Webber's space to brake so he could either go into the wall or Hamilton. Maybe it wasn't too smart of a move but certainly not kamikaze.No, it was they way he overtakes - supposing that the other man will be afraid and will let him go.
I don't think there was anything "kamikaze" about that overtaking attempt.
"kamikaze" as in - there's no way there will be room but let's do it anyway (in this case, he already forced Webber to go straight over the kerbs, there was no way he could have avoided the collision)
Dave Baumann
26-Sep-2010, 21:02
Of course there was - he [Webber] could have conceded that Hamilton was further in front and braked earlier. It was risky for him not to do that as the result could easily have been reversed.
infinity4
26-Sep-2010, 22:31
Hamilton chose to overtake because he always pushes harder than other drivers who are more conservative and sadly he did not finish.
Life is all about luck anyways.
Colourless
26-Sep-2010, 23:45
He had to try, its the championship at stake. I can't but think that McLaren were really underestimating the speed of Mark Webber's car and state of his tires. The told their drivers multiple times to go for it because Mark's tires were off, but he responded each time being quicker then they could be. If Hamilton managed to successfully pass Webber when he tried, would he have been able to keep Mark behind. Of course it doesn't matter now, whats done is done.
That was a fantastic race. Vettel was pressuring Alonso the whole race and it was breathless stuff at the very end. Amazing work by Kubica after he had to pit for new tyres after a puncture, he just overtook everyone when he came out on new tyres. He couldn't catch up to Barrichello.
Hamilton's crash was a pure racing incident IMHO. Webber wouldn't give in and it was pure luck that only Hamilton's suspension broke.
Webber's strategy was, at first look, very risky, but they pulled it off and the safety car basically ruined Massa's chances. He was on very old tyres, so he was pretty much where he could have ended up regardless, maybe a few places further forward was all he could have hoped for.
This was supposed to be a Red Bull track and they should have had a front row lockout. Alonso showed them up and now he's just 11 points behind Webber.
This season is so amazing. I can't wait for the next race. TOMA ALONSO! :)
Webber 'very lucky' to finish race says Bridgestone (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/87023)
25 laps with a tyre almost coming off. Wow.
Dave Baumann
27-Sep-2010, 03:40
I can't but think that McLaren were really underestimating the speed of Mark Webber's car and state of his tires.
Actually they seriously underestimated the state of their own tires while they remained on the soft. When they were telling them to push Webber was getting down the the 1.52's while Button and Hamilton were slipping down to 1.54. As soon as Hamilon got his new tires up to temp he was post both green and purple sectors and the lap before the safety car only Vettel was quicker.
I like Webber, but I think he was very lucky there to get away without a penality and more importantly, not damage his car.
Webber got cought out with the Virgin cars, ended up on the wrong side of the track (dirty side) and had Hamilton pass him completely. Lewis at this point had made the move and was in front, while also being on the racing line. Webber was on the inside, thus had to break earlier. The only reason he ended up in Hamiltons blind spot was because he went for it and tried to undercut him.
Kubica pulled off a few similar moves later in the race, without leaving more room than Hamilton - the only difference was the cars Kubica passed yielded their position that Webber didn't. Looking back at Monza, Webber was extremely lucky to get away with this one. I don't mind him not getting a penalty for it though.
I like Webber, but I think he was very lucky there to get away without a penality and more importantly, not damage his car.
Webber got cought out with the Virgin cars, ended up on the wrong side of the track (dirty side) and had Hamilton pass him completely. Lewis at this point had made the move and was in front, while also being on the racing line. Webber was on the inside, thus had to break earlier. The only reason he ended up in Hamiltons blind spot was because he went for it and tried to undercut him.
Kubica pulled off a few similar moves later in the race, without leaving more room than Hamilton - the only difference was the cars Kubica passed yielded their position that Webber didn't. Looking back at Monza, Webber was extremely lucky to get away with this one. I don't mind him not getting a penalty for it though.
When Hamilton forced Webber out from track to over the curbskerbswhatever, he was only half car length ahead, not completely.
http://home.akku.tv/~akku38901/hamweb.png
When Hamilton forced Webber out from track to over the curbskerbswhatever, he was only half car length ahead, not completely.
That's because Webber undercut him. If Webber had breaked earlier given by his line into that corner, he wouldn't have been as close to Hamilton as he ended up being. Of course Webber went wide and hit Hamilton.
Point is, Hamilton was ahead and on the racing line. Webber wasn't. That's what you call an over oportunistic move. Hamilton did it in Monza, Webber in Singapore.
That's because Webber undercut him. If Webber had breaked earlier given by his line into that corner, he wouldn't have been as close to Hamilton as he ended up being. Of course Webber went wide and hit Hamilton.
Point is, Hamilton was ahead and on the racing line. Webber wasn't. That's what you call an over oportunistic move. Hamilton did it in Monza, Webber in Singapore.
You've reversed causality. It was LH overtaking & sweeping around the outside of MW. The apex was MW's who was squeezed by LH in the braking zone. Indeed MW left plenty of room on the outside given LH had to deal with going wide at the apex. So it wasn't MW ducking up the inside like LH did with FM at Monza. MW just didn't yield & nor should he given they were racing for a podium. The pic above says it all. LH was never clear of MW. If he had been, MW would've rear-ended him again... ;)
It is still a racing incident, though. Webber couldn't go away and Hamilton didn't leave him enough room on the apex. Webber was lucky in that his suspension held and that his tyre stayed on. And stevem is right, it was Hamilton who overtook and Webber who defended his position. Hamilton was ahead but he wasn't clear.
You've reversed causality. It was LH overtaking & sweeping around the outside of MW. The apex was MW's who was squeezed by LH in the braking zone. Indeed MW left plenty of room on the outside given LH had to deal with going wide at the apex. So it wasn't MW ducking up the inside like LH did with FM at Monza. MW just didn't yield & nor should he given they were racing for a podium. The pic above says it all. LH was never clear of MW. If he had been, MW would've rear-ended him again... ;)
Indeed. If one wants to see what Hamilton should have done, look how Kubica passed someone in that corner.
Also I think its stupid your engineer doesn't give you any info on what might be a good setup for a track.
The Gaming Gods appeared to me via the traditional burning shrubbery
and they did say unto me
http://www.racedepartment.com/f1-2010-setups/#tb
You've reversed causality. It was LH overtaking & sweeping around the outside of MW. The apex was MW's who was squeezed by LH in the braking zone. Indeed MW left plenty of room on the outside given LH had to deal with going wide at the apex. So it wasn't MW ducking up the inside like LH did with FM at Monza. MW just didn't yield & nor should he given they were racing for a podium. The pic above says it all. LH was never clear of MW. If he had been, MW would've rear-ended him again... ;)
To make things clear:
Lewis was ahead on Webber at least by the length of his own car along the straight, right after passing the Virgin.
Lewis was on the racing line.
Lewis was still ahead going into the corner.
Lewis was on better, fresher tyres.
The racing line is an issue, because that is where the better grip is. Lewis, as stated above, made the pass on Webber down the straight. He knew he was ahread, was braking on the better line and so it would be a pretty good assumption to assume that the corner was his. Also consider that Webber was on the inside of the corner, thus had to break earlier to avoid going extremely wide. He didn't, he braked later and got partially along side. Lewis couldn't see him and though he left a bit of room on turn in just in case, it wasn't enough and they colided.
What was Webber thinking?
He was far too quick into that corner, braking on the dirty side of the track. He never made it side by side to successfully outbreak Lewis into that corner.
This move was far too optimistic, just as Hamiltons one was in Monza, trying to get up the inside of Massa.
To make things clear:
As mud...
[reality distortion field activated]
Lewis was ahead on Webber at least by the length of his own car along the straight, right after passing the Virgin.
Lewis was on the racing line.
Lewis was still ahead going into the corner.
Lewis was on better, fresher tyres.
The racing line is an issue, because that is where the better grip is. Lewis, as stated above, made the pass on Webber down the straight. He knew he was ahread, was braking on the better line and so it would be a pretty good assumption to assume that the corner was his. Also consider that Webber was on the inside of the corner, thus had to break earlier to avoid going extremely wide. He didn't, he braked later and got partially along side. Lewis couldn't see him and though he left a bit of room on turn in just in case, it wasn't enough and they colided.
What was Webber thinking?
He was far too quick into that corner, braking on the dirty side of the track. He never made it side by side to successfully outbreak Lewis into that corner.
This move was far too optimistic, just as Hamiltons one was in Monza, trying to get up the inside of Massa.
[/deactivated]
Heh. :)
If one wants to see what Hamilton should have done, look how Kubica passed someone in that corner.
There's a bit of difference overtaking mid-pack/back-markers & those at the pointy end. Ultimately I don't think that LH's move was wrong. The opportunity presented & he attempted it. One patch of tarmac that neither wanted to concede. Perhaps LH could've gone wider, perhaps MW could've let LH overtake - what's the likelihood of either? Racing incident.
Perhaps LH could've been more circumspect the last two races, but that's not always in his DNA. He has impressed me this year & handled himself well after the incident, just bad luck that his car broke & lucky for MW that his lasted to the finish.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFAAD_ZP1TU
Hamilton was never (before the corner) full car length ahead
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFAAD_ZP1TU
Hamilton was never (before the corner) full car length ahead
Care to explain what you're trying to prove he wasn't a car length ahead with an in-car view from Hamiltons car?
Hint: Check Webber's in-car view.
http://temp.conceptics.ch/33s_edit.jpg
Video can be found here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgmcO9qLSkc (if it's still available)
If you look the video further, it shows the incident outside either ones car.
tongue_of_colicab
27-Sep-2010, 16:08
The Gaming Gods appeared to me via the traditional burning shrubbery
and they did say unto me
http://www.racedepartment.com/f1-2010-setups/#tb
Thanks! Though sadly F1 2010 got exchanged for darksiders already. Though I will play it again once I finished darksiders and maybe Dead rising 2. So much games I want to play and so little time :(
/me expects a darksiders review
AlphaWolf
27-Sep-2010, 19:08
Care to explain what you're trying to prove he wasn't a car length ahead with an in-car view from Hamiltons car?
Hint: Check Webber's in-car view.
snip
Video can be found here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgmcO9qLSkc (if it's still available)
What is that picture supposed to be showing? All you can see is Hamilton's front left tire. He was never a full length in front, the higher angle shots show that pretty clearly. The car camera views are nearly useless because they have such a narrow field of view.
tongue_of_colicab
27-Sep-2010, 20:22
/me expects a darksiders review
From me? :P Well, in short, pretty F'ing awsome I think. I generally don't play games like this. The last time I played a hack 'n slash typ of game was DMC4 and that got me bored in 5 minutes but Darksiders is really sweet. Turn up the volume untill everything in your room vibrates and you're in for a blast. Atleast that is my impression after 3 hours or so.
tongue_of_colicab
27-Sep-2010, 22:35
Might be but I like it so I guess that is all that matters for me. Mabye its like Fragile on Wii and contact on DS. Both of those games didn't got great reviews but I really enjoyed both games. Much more than I did enjoy some other games that according to the reviews where really good.
Dave Baumann
27-Sep-2010, 22:46
Please bear in mind that this is the real F1 2010 thread. If we wish to discuss the game in-depth then there are better forums for it.
Ike Turner
28-Sep-2010, 02:05
BTW the F1 2010 game is a disaster... there's no AI, everything is scripted!
http://community.codemasters.com/forum/f1-2010-game-1316/431006-confirmed-race-ai-phoney.html
It is turning into a clusterfuck.
If you look the video further, it shows the incident outside either ones car.
The 3rd person view replay unfortunately doesn't cover the bit where Hamilton passes both Webber and the Virgins car. Given his speed differential and the in-car view from Webbers camera one can see that Hamilton was well clear of Webbers car. If that was by quarter car length, half a car length or a full length isn't really relevant.
Had Hamilton shut the door on Webber, they probably wouldn't have crashed (unless Webber had rear-ended him), although one might assume Webber would have attempted to outbreak Hamilton on the racing line then. He didn't though and assumed having track position, being on the racing line and on fresher tyres would be enough to intimidate Webber into conceding the position.
As I already said, I'm not arguing that Webber should have been penalised, but I do think he was especially lucky to get away without damage. In fact, if one made a Kamikaze move as you put it, it certainly wasn't Hamilton.
itsmydamnation
28-Sep-2010, 12:07
he had speed but no track position, that makes the speed he had pretty irrelevent, if it was relevent he would have overtaken him and there wouldn't have been contact. Remeber not only did mark hold his line he also moved to the left up onto the curb. Hamo wasn't far enough ahead to overtake given his track position.
If he had taken the corner wider and there was no contact then it would have been very interesting down the next straight.
Come on, it was just a racing incident. Too bad Hamilton's car broke, or it would have been even more close in the top.
Suzuka is going to be so awesome, the best track on the calendar couldn't be raced at a better time with the current contention in the top of the championship.
I predict the Bulls will have an advantage in the first 7 corners, Ferrari and McLaren on the straights.
Cheers
Some believe that the race for WDC could be decided upon engine usage. As it stands, Alonso has already used up all his engines for the engine. Using a 9th engine incurs a 10 place grid penality.
This is the engine usage up to and including the Italian GP:
Mark Webber / Red Bull-Renault 6
Lewis Hamilton / McLaren-Mercedes 7
Fernando Alonso / Ferrari 8
Jenson Button / McLaren-Mercedes 7
Sebastian Vettel / Red Bull-Renault 7
Felipe Massa / Ferrari 8
Nico Rosberg / Mercedes GP 7
Robert Kubica / Renault 6
Michael Schumacher / Mercedes GP 7
Adrian Sutil / Force India-Mercedes 7
Rubens Barrichello / Williams-Cosworth 6
Kamui Kobayashi / Sauber-Ferrari 7
Vitaly Petrov / Renault 6
Nico Hülkenberg / Williams-Cosworth 7
Vitantonio Liuzzi / Force India-Mercedes 7
Sébastien Buemi / Toro Rosso-Ferrari 7
Jaime Alguersuari / Toro Rosso-Ferrari 7
Heikki Kovalainen / Lotus-Cosworth 7
Lucas di Grassi / Virgin-Cosworth 7
Jarno Trulli / Lotus-Cosworth 7
Timo Glock / Virgin-Cosworth 7
Bruno Senna / Hispania-Cosworth 7
Sakon Yamamoto / Hispania-Cosworth 7
Nick Heidfeld / Sauber-Ferrari 9
AFAIK Alonso used the same engine from Monza (?) at the Singaporian GP which was used for the 3rd and final time. The engine will now only be used for practice sessions. For the remaining 4 races, they have two used enginens that have already been used once, so that they are used for a total of 3 races.
This could be quite interesting.
tongue_of_colicab
29-Sep-2010, 10:36
Ferrari say they are fine on engines and I believe them. The singapore engine already did 2500km apperantly.
dizietsma
29-Sep-2010, 10:47
First Seb crashes into Button and now Mark crashes into Hamilton, though Lewis seems to be less lucky in these sort of incidents than Jenson :)
Mind you the RedBulls crash into themselves as well!
First Seb crashes into Button and now Mark crashes into Hamilton, though Lewis seems to be less lucky in these sort of incidents than Jenson :)
Though Button had nothing to do with Vettel crashing into him, while Webber/Hamilton was Hamiltons fault (more than Webbers)
I hope Ferrari can manage their engines. I hope that they can so so so much.
infinity4
29-Sep-2010, 18:51
In terms of engines Mark Webber at top is most comfortable, but it isn't everything.
We have seen Ferrari engines letting their drivers down at very important moments (Suzuka 06 & Hungary 08) so it is inevitable that Alonso has to risk engine from failing.
RobertR1
29-Sep-2010, 19:09
I really hope the condentors aren't boosted or eliminated due to mechanicals. That would be a shameful end to a fun championship.
tongue_of_colicab
29-Sep-2010, 19:30
In terms of engines Mark Webber at top is most comfortable, but it isn't everything.
We have seen Ferrari engines letting their drivers down at very important moments (Suzuka 06 & Hungary 08) so it is inevitable that Alonso has to risk engine from failing.
06 was with Schumacher vs Alonso right? Didn't Alonso had a failure the race before Suzuka?
The point with comparisons like this is they don't tell you anything. How often didn't we see a Mclaren break down with broken engines? Or Red Bull's that don't finish because of mechnical problems. For every failure Ferrari had you can easily name failures from other teams in important stages.
I think we should just assume that teams know very well what their engines can do and I'm pretty sure they know how to manage them all season long. Afterall having 1 fresh engine vs having no fresh engine just means that the engines you already used have more milage on them than the team that already used all engines.
The engine they used this weekend was said to already done 2500km. If you consider every race is about 300km and we have 19 races than that is 5700km. As the current engine is still working you could argue that out of the 8 engines they have, you really only need 2 to finish all the races and got 6 left for quali and practice. Ofcourse it's not that easy with all the different engine settings and some tracks having a bigger impact on engine life than others but I think it's fair to say that Ferrari probably got their engine allocation well figured out.
dizietsma
30-Sep-2010, 08:45
Though Button had nothing to do with Vettel crashing into him, while Webber/Hamilton was Hamiltons fault (more than Webbers)
In that case using that logic Massa was more to blame than Hamilton at Monza. Both Hamilton and Webber were up the kerb and couldn't brake in time to stop from hitting someone taking a good line around a corner.
That's the facts I'm afraid.
In that case using that logic Massa was more to blame than Hamilton at Monza. Both Hamilton and Webber were up the kerb and couldn't brake in time to stop from hitting someone taking a good line around a corner.
That's the facts I'm afraid.
Check the video again, your memory might be a bit rusty on the Monza case - Hamilton only had one wheel on the kerb (and not any more than it would usually be) and plenty of room to turn more directly left without going more on the kerb, while at Singapore Webbers wheel was already going partly behind the actual kerb rather than on it.
Check the video again, your memory might be a bit rusty on the Monza case - Hamilton only had one wheel on the kerb (and not any more than it would usually be) and plenty of room to turn more directly left without going more on the kerb, while at Singapore Webbers wheel was already going partly behind the actual kerb rather than on it.
It's actually far simpler than that: In Monza, Hamilton undercut Massa without actually being side-by-side (or ahead). In Singapore, Webber undercut Hamilton without actually being side-by-side (or ahead).
itsmydamnation
30-Sep-2010, 10:21
how does someone defending thier position undercut someone else?
how does someone defending thier position undercut someone else?
If the undercutting car (the one being on the inside line) can successfully get up side-by-side or even pass the car that's running on the outside into the corner. This will force the car running on the outside to run wide or lift and concede position. For this to happen though: The car running on the outside needs to see the car being there.
Example: Hamilton retaking his position against Button in Turkey. At the apex, he was wheel at wheel with Button.
In Singapore, Webber never got that far. He went into the corner at an impossible angle and didn't get close enough to force Hamilton wide. From Hamilton's camera, you can't even see Webber. If he had been a bit quicker or further up ahead, he would have easily forced Hamilton wide.
Hamilton forced him to that "impossible angle" by cutting the path even though Ham wasn't ahead yet.
He said that he couldn't see where Webber went, but here's a riddle.
He's not in front of you, you can't see him in your mirrors and you know he can't be on your right side - what's left other than your left side?
The fact you can't see him in the mirror means you haven't gotten past him yet.
No he didn't. Hamilton was merely on the racing line. You know, the same line Webber took on every single lap when he wasn't impeded by any car ahead of him - from the outside of the corner to the apex and out again.
You truly have an odd view of racing. Do you drive under the same assumption on the road (or track) that the car on the inside line regardless of actual track position is in the right, even if he his clearly behind? That's as ridiculous as saying Massa should have made room for Hamilton in Monza.
No he didn't. Hamilton was merely on the racing line. You know, the same line Webber took on every single lap when he wasn't impeded by any car ahead of him - from the outside of the corner to the apex and out again.
You truly have an odd view of racing. Do you drive under the same assumption on the road (or track) that the car on the inside line regardless of actual track position is in the right, even if he his clearly behind? That's as ridiculous as saying Massa should have made room for Hamilton in Monza.
No, of course not, but if you're overtaking, you have to make you're clear before you cut the other one out of track and/or force crash to you. Hamilton was not clear of Webber.
Of course he was. It's on video and on the picture I posted a page back. Hamilton was clear of Webber. Just because Hamilton stayed on the racing line and didn't shut the door which allowed Webber to close the gap again somewhat doesn't make it any different. Starting at least 300metres leading up to that corner, Hamilton was in position 3 and Webber in 4.
Even if we agree that both were fighting for position, the fact remains that Hamilton was ahead and on the racing line and Webber was attempting to re-take P3.
itsmydamnation
30-Sep-2010, 14:25
if he "shut the door" it would be vettel all over again, you actual have to be atleast a car length ahead to "shut the door" , he never was and your photo doesn't prove that he was. He didn't have the line though the corner either. if webber is hard under breaks into a corner and is also moving to the left what more can he do? You might be used to people jumping out of the way for lewis but come the pointy end of the season the compitition aren't going to move out of his way, the ayrton senna tatic isn't going to work on any one in the top 5.
the funny thing is someone overtook correctly only a few laps latter, maybe you should compare the lines though the corner :wink:
webber was never attempting to retake something he hasn't lost yet, lewis never had the racing line, lewis entered the corner with more speed then webber how could webber be trying to "retake" 3rd?
PatrickL
30-Sep-2010, 14:40
I think hamilton was just arrogant, expecting Webber to go off track to let him get the best path in that corner.
No, Hamilton had the line. It was Webber who was 15 feet off it:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4151/5029399910_384cae0d79_z.jpg
itsmydamnation:
Sorry, your post doesn't make much sense... Jumping out of the way? You can only jump out of the way when you're in front. In the above case, Hamilton was in front of Webber. You might want to believe it was Webbers position but looking at the picture, it's clear who at that stage is in P3 and who is in P4. It's certainly not Webber.
I really hope I won't have to draw up lines to highlight where the racing line is or which car is in front of the other
PatrickL
30-Sep-2010, 15:22
We perfectly know the racing path, but look at your picture and tell me where Webber as supposed to go? Hamilton knew where webber was and only hamilton could follow an other path in that corner.
AlphaWolf
30-Sep-2010, 23:59
Of course he was. It's on video and on the picture I posted a page back. Hamilton was clear of Webber. Just because Hamilton stayed on the racing line and didn't shut the door which allowed Webber to close the gap again somewhat doesn't make it any different. Starting at least 300metres leading up to that corner, Hamilton was in position 3 and Webber in 4.
Even if we agree that both were fighting for position, the fact remains that Hamilton was ahead and on the racing line and Webber was attempting to re-take P3.
Your picture in no way, ever, showed that hamilton was clear of webber.
The racing line doesn't matter when they are that close. What matters is giving enough room because if not they will crash and that is what happened.
dizietsma
01-Oct-2010, 08:05
On the autosport.com thread there are now close to 1000 posts on the matter, in the poll twice as many people blame Webber than Hamilton but that might show a Lewis bias as he is British as are most posters there??
I think it was a racing incident and Webber mostly to blame though Hamilton in hindsight no doubt have gone wider if he had known what would have happened. Anyhow, it's in the past now, slightly detuned the title race, but it could still be close!
Wouldn't it be great for top 5 to be all in with a shout at the last race!
itsmydamnation
01-Oct-2010, 10:27
two more polls and two more complete different views,
http://www.crash.net/f1/poll_results/110/who_was_to_blame_for_hamiltonwebber_crash.html
http://sidepodcast.com/2010/05/30/post-race-debate-webber-or-vettel-to-blame-for-lap-41-crash/
two more polls and two more complete different views,
http://www.crash.net/f1/poll_results/110/who_was_to_blame_for_hamiltonwebber_crash.html
http://sidepodcast.com/2010/05/30/post-race-debate-webber-or-vettel-to-blame-for-lap-41-crash/
The second link is from a completely different incident.
Lightman
01-Oct-2010, 18:09
IMHO Hamilton had simply bad luck! I love when he is racing for positions and wouldn't want him to stop doing it.
Of course he could position his car slightly different into the corner as Kubica did, but I'm sure he was certain Webber is far behind him already.
Webber on the other hand had two options to consider. Fight for the position as he did or simply let it go and bank on certain points.
His move was within regulations and not overly optimistic (remember Melbourne2010? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RnQ-6UwrUA) ). Can't really blame him because I would do exactly the same thing in his position.
infinity4
01-Oct-2010, 18:28
I thought Mark Webber should have seen that Hamilton was ahead of him, and that he won't have slowed back to allow him to gain the lead, which made my conclusion that Webber should have slowed down. It seems Webber didn't slow down because it isn't his problem if he crashes with Lewis, simply because you can replace front wing and you cannot for the back.
tongue_of_colicab
01-Oct-2010, 23:18
Yes but if you are in the championship run and your rivals are in front of you and you are racing on a track which makes it hard you don't really want to risk damaging your car.
I think it's simply just a racing incident. Both of them didn't make weird moves. Hamilton never really got in front of Webber but he had to try and overtake. He turned in a didn't leave Webber enough space to brake enough not to hit him. Webber, just like Hamilton is in the championship hunt so he can't risk just letting his rivals pass easily either.
At the end of the day it is impossible to blame Webber because he didn't had a place to go and you can't really blame Hamilton either because he did pass Webber (more or less) but there just wasn't enough space for both of them but he probably wanted to try and make it stick or hope Webber would give up easy.
Racing incident I think.
Rurouni
02-Oct-2010, 09:19
For me, Hamilton didn't give enough room. If it were a straight line, it would look like Hamilton cut into Webber. Otoh, Webber were just too fast entering that corner.. even if Hamilton gave him some space, it looked like Webber would still ram Hamilton (if this is the case then Webber is completely at fault).
Is it just a bad luck or McLaren car is too fragile when dealing with external forces?
tongue_of_colicab
02-Oct-2010, 09:33
It ain't bumper cars! the cars are not designed to hit anything. Everytime a drive does hit something and nothing breaks is just luck.
Rurouni
02-Oct-2010, 10:06
Yeah, but 2 out of 2 for Hamilton with the opposition car still running... maybe the 3rd time he'll be lucky? :)
infinity4
02-Oct-2010, 17:38
Same drivers got involved in Australia didn't they?
If both collided and Webber retired people will still blame Hamilton. I don't think either should have given way, for Hamilton he was ahead, for Webber he wasn't too far behind.
I think we should curb this unproductive discussion and instead focus on the races that remain. It is supposed to be 4 races; Japan, Korea, Brazil and Abu Dhabi, but the Korea race is in peril. If it does not get FIA approval when the inspection occurs after the Japanese Grand Prix, we are just left with 3 races. 75 points to decide the winner and 5 people are still in it. Based on Alonso's run of form, his experience and Ferrari being 100% behind him, I think he has a great shot at the title, but if Alonso can't win it, I hope Webber does.
Well Webber wasn't on the racing line, so he wouldn't had gone that fast. Hamilton overtook him going there. But from all the angle it looks like Hamilton squeezed Webber and made the contact. Webber was there first at the apex of the corner going quite slowly since he was off the racing line going there. I reckon if Webber was going too fast they would both be out of the race. It was just luck that Webber got to finish the race.
I think we should curb this unproductive discussion and instead focus on the races that remain. It is supposed to be 4 races; Japan, Korea, Brazil and Abu Dhabi, but the Korea race is in peril. If it does not get FIA approval when the inspection occurs after the Japanese Grand Prix, we are just left with 3 races. 75 points to decide the winner and 5 people are still in it. Based on Alonso's run of form, his experience and Ferrari being 100% behind him, I think he has a great shot at the title, but if Alonso can't win it, I hope Webber does.
What's wrong with Korea track ? Is it not finished or is there something more serious ?
What's wrong with Korea track ? Is it not finished or is there something more serious ?
It's not finished, but it is the amount that is not finished that is the decider. It can have several rough edges, but the FIA have to see a safe track with accommodations for staff and spectators.
So apparently Hamilton has been slapped a 5 place penalty for having a gear change in his car.
So apparently Hamilton has been slapped a 5 place penalty for having a gear change in his car.
Yeah, that won't help him.
Anyway, today was a washout. Rain and rain and rain, P3 and quali didn't really happen, so quali will be tomorrow (hopefully) and the race should be dry.
If it isn't a dry quali, RBR will get some competition I think. If it is completely dry, I think RBR will run away with it. Hopefully Alonso can fight for the win.
tongue_of_colicab
10-Oct-2010, 17:49
Well it was a bit of a boring race I think. Though Kobayashi was great to watch. It's even more fun to watch with the bbc's somewhat sarcastic commentary about his all or nothing driving style.
Cowboyashi is fantastic. Hamilton lost 3rd gear in the latter part of the race so Hamilton let Button through. Two times in the race, wheels came off cars. First it was Kubica who lost a wheel and then at the very end it was Rosberg. Very dangerous.
Schumi did his best race, but he should have overtaken Rosberg when Schumi had new tyres. They were side by side but Rosberg covered Schumi's move.
Vettel won convincingly, Webber took fastest lap and Alonso was solidly in 3rd. It was a manic start to the race, though. Massa crashed out with Liuzzi (Massa's fault) and Petrov crashed out with Hülkenberg (Petrov's fault, but he was avoiding another car, so...)
Maybe Massa will be fired from Ferrari? Massa is not holding up to the pressure Ferrari is putting on him.
But domenicali said today he wasn't going anywhere
RobertR1
10-Oct-2010, 21:37
Great race by Vettel. I hope he wins the WDC. I've always been a fan of the fastest guy winning the title. Nice moves by Koybikazi! Good pass by Schumacher on Ruebens and then strong pressure on Rosberg in the end.
But domenicali said today he wasn't going anywhere
Yeah, I know but anything can happen.
vjPiedPiper
11-Oct-2010, 03:18
Well technically Webber did the fastest lap of the race, so by the fastest driver should win the championship rational, it should be Webber - Although as an Aussie i might be a bit biased :)
Great Race though very exciting first lap, schumaker finally starting to look like a decent driver again too. It's kinda sad that when the driver first drivers so well he ends up getting relatively little coverage.
Good win for Vettel, i'm happy to see him get it, now he will start taking more stupid risks and crash out again - leaving the championship to Webber!
I am rooting for Alonso to win the championship, but if he can't win I want to see Webber win.
Petrov was penalised for crashing into the Hülk and Massa wasn't for crashing into Liuzzi. I think both decisions were fine, because Petrov just moved too early while Massa was forced off the road on the inside of the corner and hit the kerb making him go straight into Liuzzi.
So is Hamilton going to get another gearbox penalty for the next race? His 3rd gear was broken so, I assume it is a completely new gearbox for next race? Can they change whatever is wrong inside with FIA approval?
But domenicali said today he wasn't going anywhere
Yeah, but all you need is money and you can buy anyone off as seen from Santander buying spot for Alonso (year early)
Yeah, but all you need is money and you can buy anyone off as seen from Santander buying spot for Alonso (year early)
It helped that Ferrari was disillusioned with Kimi and that Kimi was fed up with the F1 life. He loves the racing, but not the secondary duties as talking to people (media) and doing promotional stuff.
It is not as if Kimi did not get compensated.
It helped that Ferrari was disillusioned with Kimi and that Kimi was fed up with the F1 life. He loves the racing, but not the secondary duties as talking to people (media) and doing promotional stuff.
It is not as if Kimi did not get compensated.
Yeah, he did get full salary apparently for this year anyway, but it was just to illustrate that even at Ferrari money talks when there's enough of it.
Yeah, he did get full salary apparently for this year anyway, but it was just to illustrate that even at Ferrari money talks when there's enough of it.
It is like that everywhere in F1.
I am starting to doubt we'll see Massa in a Ferrari next year. It is a niggling doubt, not a massive one, but still.
tongue_of_colicab
11-Oct-2010, 19:00
I doubt that. Who can they get as a replacement? All the top drivers have contracts signed for next year. You can't/don't want to get one of the RBR, Mclaren or Mercedes drivers so the only good driver left is Kubica but that would probably cost Ferrari and is there really a good reason for getting Kubica now? Massa is more than capable enough he just didn't have a great start of the season (not suprising) and basically his performance only went really downhill once Ferrari told him to help Alonso out the rest of the season.
infinity4
11-Oct-2010, 21:54
If Massa was going to be replaced, there would have been rumours going around media all season, which hasn't. Nobody in media doubts about Massa's future and they expect him to be there next season, which is in my opinion is very likely to happen.
Fruitfrenzy
11-Oct-2010, 23:40
So is Hamilton going to get another gearbox penalty for the next race? His 3rd gear was broken so, I assume it is a completely new gearbox for next race? Can they change whatever is wrong inside with FIA approval?
When the BBC interviewed Martin Whitmarsh after the race he said that because of the fact that they took the penalty at this race and it failed then they won't get a penalty at the next race when they use a new one again. I haven't seen that repeated anywhere but he seemed sure of it himself.
Yeah, I saw that too and it seemed wrong.
Anyway, the Korean GP is officially going to happen.
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2010/10/11382.html
Fruitfrenzy
12-Oct-2010, 22:31
I found a reference to what Martin Whitmarsh said here: http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?id=49447
We’ve taken the penalty for this weekend so we had a free gearbox change for the next race.I don't think he would have said that if he wasn't sure about it.
vBulletin® v3.8.6, Copyright ©2000-2013, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.