View Full Version : Formula 1 - 2010 Season
I was in the US over the weekend and forced into watching the Speed coverage, however in this case they did notice something interesting in regards to Vettel's issues. Part of his speed loss relative to Webber was actually because his moveable front wing was broken early on. Speed spotted that it had stopped, and stayed, in the highest position it could, partially blocking the front brake duct. It seems that the brake issues may have bee due to insufficient cooling from the front wing issues.
Hamilton actually scored the fastest lap in the end.
The BBC also noted the front-flap was stuck.
Hamilton went for glory, then and it all went to poop.
Still, Webbo did a superb job. I have to say I like him more than Vettel.
dizietsma
10-May-2010, 13:35
Which was not very smart - damaging his tyres/rims for what? No bonus points for fastest lap in F1.
It was a few laps before the problem and the tyre didn't look too bad, need to see what Bridgestone say I guess.
Dave Baumann
10-May-2010, 14:10
Which was not very smart - damaging his tyres/rims for what? No bonus points for fastest lap in F1.
Initial comments from McLaren are that they think the failure was from debris on the track, not from "overdriving" the tyres.
Dave Baumann
11-May-2010, 16:15
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/83530
There you go, a rim failure, not a tire failure.
Wasn't it a rim failure for Kovalainen last year or the year before which resulted in that huge crash? Is it just me or have McLaren had the lion's share of rim failures these last few seasons?
Mariner
12-May-2010, 16:56
"Rim failure". Sounds like an eye-watering medical problem to me...
Simon F
12-May-2010, 17:30
"Rim failure". Sounds like an eye-watering medical problem to me...
No, it just means he was texting on his blackberry when the accident occurred.
P1 and P2 have been encouraging, Fernando Alonso have topped both sessions. Let's hope it will carry on into qualifying and the race.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/83591
Q. Was Sebastian's problem something you hope was a one off? Have you managed to find out what the problem was?
CH: The problem was quite bizarre as basically the brake on the left hand side stopped working completely and the disc effectively split in half, straight down the middle of the spline, so effectively you have just got a spacer in there and so he had only got three brakes, so all the bias was towards the rear and he was using mainly the aerodynamics to stop the car and built some huge margin into his braking zones. With having fitted the option tyre at the end of the race on relatively light fuel load he actually did a purple sector in the middle sector with three brakes. It was ironic as I was joking with Adrian (Newey) the night before about his first car being an Austin Allegro which only had three brake discs and unfortunately in the race Sebastian's car turned out to be similar to that. But he managed it incredibly well and to get the car home in third place was a valuable and brave performance by him.
Heres a question, since johnny herbet has just been on the bbc do you think he's gay ?
He has always been a happy chappy.
P1 and P2 have been encouraging, Fernando Alonso have topped both sessions. Let's hope it will carry on into qualifying and the race.
Oops.
Oops.
Yeah, that was bad. If Alonso can manage some points tomorrow, it will be a good damage limitation.
Webber smoked them, what an incredible laptime. Webber is on a roll.
Kubica looked good, though. Same with Massa who is a self-professed hater of this track.
Good to see Liuzzi in Q3. He needs good results to keep his seat.
Rosberg and Schumacher are playing mind games against each other.
Rosberg said post-qualifying that he was hugely disappointed that he couldn't get on the front row. He outqualified Schumi and he's not happy. Schumi on the other hand said Rosberg held him up in Q3.
This could get nasty.
Ike Turner
16-May-2010, 15:10
Ah! Schumi passed Alonzo.....wonder if he will stay 6th? Heard they weren't allowed to pass each other after the pace car left.
Dave Baumann
16-May-2010, 15:22
Well, the rules have changed to make the pass line after the SC to be before the start finish line, so normally Schu's pass looks to have been OK. However there's some commentry over Twitter that says that you have to hold station if the SC is coming in on the last lap!
Well, the rules have changed to make the pass line after the SC to be before the start finish line, so normally Schu's pass looks to have been OK. However there's some commentry over Twitter that says that you have to hold station if the SC is coming in on the last lap!
The green flags were the "key", they waved green flags which meaned the "race was back on", and Schumachers pass was fine by the rules.
The green flags were the "key", they waved green flags which meaned the "race was back on", and Schumachers pass was fine by the rules.
He's been given a 20sec penalty.
EDIT: Which I should say means he's demoted to 12th place.
Dave Baumann
16-May-2010, 18:27
The green flags were the "key", they waved green flags which meaned the "race was back on", and Schumachers pass was fine by the rules.
Evidently not:
Under rule 40.13, which states that "if the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pitlane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking," Schumacher has been given a penalty.
tongue_of_colicab
16-May-2010, 18:34
Damon Hill has probably been waiting for this, something he could blame Schumacher with ;)
He was probably arguing for the death penalty
ouch, guess Ross Brawn was wrong then
Brilliant work by Webber. He's on a roll, very nice.
Alonso had a great drive, I thought and he was a long time on those tyres. He was helped by the first safety car, but there were so many SCs it would have happened anyway. It was an inspired and opportunistic tyre change on, what, lap 2? Really good result considering where he started.
Kubica was really good, too. Excellent result for him and for Renault.
Regarding the Schumi-Alonso overtake on the last lap:
U40.13U If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking.
Edit: Mercedes have appealed the penalty Schumacher received.
Edit2: actually, they have not appealed the penalty (as drive-throughs cannot be appealed) but they have appealed the decision. Hm.
I think the key is that green flags were waved at the corner, which should mean despite what that part of rulebook says, that the race is back on. The rule could be read as the safety car will enter pits regardless on the last lap, but in this case as green flags were waved, it entered pits just like any other lap of the race, not to finish the race
dizietsma
17-May-2010, 07:16
It seems contradictory that you can have both safety car rules, which by definition is a full course yellow, and at the same time have green flags waved which means cleared to race. Which do you pick? I would have thought that if you had to stay in position then the yellows should still be out and so should the safety car.
Extremely happy for Webber. He deserves this and what a brilliant race he showed. Well done!
I'm a bit unhappy about the whole Schumacher ruling. If anything, a 20 seconds penalty is the worst possible action that could have been taken. Sure, rule 4.13 is explicit - but IMO it wasn't clear it should be applied since the message "safety car in this lap" + the green flags after the safety car line implied it wasn't a race that was about to finish under safety car.
Even if race-control planned it differently - they showed it differently and handing a 20 second penalty is the worst they could do. Considering it's anything but clear/cut, they should have just made an exception and reverted the positions. Simple as that.
Phil you have this article in the sporting regs
16.3 The stewards may impose any one of three penalties on any driver involved in an Incident :
a) A drive-through penalty. The driver must enter the pit lane and re-join the race without stopping ;
b) A ten second time penalty. The driver must enter the pit lane, stop at his pit for at least ten seconds and then re-join the race.
c) a drop of any number of grid positions at the driver’s next Event.
However, should either of the penalties under a) and b) above be imposed during the last five laps, or after the end of a race, Article 16.4b) below will not apply and U20U seconds will be added to the elapsed race time of the driver concerned Uin the case of a) above and 30 seconds in the case of b)U.
My bold.
Bludd,
I know. I just think it's not fair. The punishment must fit the crime. The crime being not knowing rule 40.13 well enough to apply it despite visual indicators (green flags pointing to a restart before the finishing line) that mislead. 20 seconds penalty under safety car sends you right back and that's totally wrong.
If anything, race-control stuffed up by sending the wrong signals - that being message "safety car in this lap" and the green flags after the safety car pulled into the pits with turned off lights.
The last race that ended in a safety car finish (Melbourne last year if I recall correctly; the safety car pulled into the pits before the finish line as well) also had race-control leave out yellow flags with SC signs - implying that the race at that moment was still in a controlled state and that overtaking was prohibited.
I agree. I think the appeal court should recognise that the marshals waved the wrong flags and restore Schumi to P7.
Just rewatched the race again and thought I'd post this for added clarity:
Lap 78 Webber at the height of the casino - message "safety car in this lap" gets sent to broadcast
Safety car goes out, round information bar on top goes from yellow "Lap 78 SC" to normal "Lap 78".
Green flags beyond the white line.
Webber passes white line.
If this was intended to demonstrate that "the race will end whilst the safety car is deployed", they sure made an extremely poor effort. If anything, this just looks like the complete opposite, which further strengthens Brawns/Schumachers case and action.
It'll be interesting to see what the appeal against the decision will yield and although I think Mercedes has a very strong argument, I really doubt the FIA will do much about it. Having to change the result again will just make them look even more stupid and incompetent. :???:
tongue_of_colicab
17-May-2010, 19:21
A ruling can't be changed so it will probably stay the way it is now. If Merc really is right or wrong I dont know. To me it seems the race was a finish behind the safety car. Your not going to restart a race that only lasts for another 2 corners. Maybe it was a marshall error and they waved the wrong flags because the Ferrari drivers where told not to make any moves.
A ruling can't be changed so it will probably stay the way it is now. If Merc really is right or wrong I dont know. To me it seems the race was a finish behind the safety car. Your not going to restart a race that only lasts for another 2 corners. Maybe it was a marshall error and they waved the wrong flags because the Ferrari drivers where told not to make any moves.
Anything can be changed on later date (they've added and removed penalties before, too)
Just rewatched the race again and thought I'd post this for added clarity:
Lap 78 Webber at the height of the casino - message "safety car in this lap" gets sent to broadcast
Safety car goes out, round information bar on top goes from yellow "Lap 78 SC" to normal "Lap 78".
Green flags beyond the white line.
Webber passes white line.
If this was intended to demonstrate that "the race will end whilst the safety car is deployed", they sure made an extremely poor effort. If anything, this just looks like the complete opposite, which further strengthens Brawns/Schumachers case and action.
It'll be interesting to see what the appeal against the decision will yield and although I think Mercedes has a very strong argument, I really doubt the FIA will do much about it. Having to change the result again will just make them look even more stupid and incompetent. :???:
I think the purpose of 40.13 is to avoid having the safety car "winning" the race. It looks better to have the F1 cars go over the line alone, but still under the safety car.
The problem, IMHO, is that they should not have waved the green flags.
Lightman
18-May-2010, 18:15
Mercedes will not appeal the ruling.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8690323.stm
Okay, that's that then.
Let's see what will happen to the regs.
Rurouni
21-May-2010, 11:23
Based on the wording of article 40.13, do you think that they can apply 40.11 instead of 40.13 on Monaco-like situation? Basically using 40.11 if the track is clear should yield the same result as far as preventing the SC to take the chequered flag, the difference is that 40.11 still allow for some racing. It might not do good if everyone is aware about the rules, but I would imagine if someone in front is limping and the SC is out on track... if they use 40.13, the limping car is pretty much safe, but not so much if they use 40.11.
And I believe there are already a couple of overtaking maneuver that are successfully executed under this new safety care line stuff. It might be hard to do it in Monaco, but probably a wider track would yield a different result.
If I can change the rule, I would just add that 40.13 will only be used if they can't use 40.11 because the track still isn't clear.
And the rules don't say anything about SC covering the whole lap. I think it's more correct to say that the safety car is in effect from SC line to SC line. And in Monaco they are basically allow the racing to continue as per article 40.7 whether they intended to use 40.13 or not.
FWIW, based on the wording of the rules, I think Brawn interpretation is the correct one and this time he doesn't go against the spirit of the rule (unlike the DD one)... and race control/official is the one that is breaking the rules and because of their incompetence a driver must suffer quite a lot.
who re-watches F1 races these days? I am so sorry for you guys. The first viewing costs me quite a bit, can't imagine the second one...
who re-watches F1 races these days? I am so sorry for you guys. The first viewing costs me quite a bit, can't imagine the second one...
Those who want to see again some possible incidents people are debating about, and even those just the parts with incidents
...i hope
dskneo you have to pay to watch f1 ?
Maybe he actually went to the race?
Simon F
22-May-2010, 11:04
Maybe he actually went to the race?
Hmm. The mind boggles as to how you would re-watch that then. I suppose the the telemetry info would have to made completely bidirectional but the rebuilding of the crashed cars wouldn't be fun.
Hmm. The mind boggles as to how you would re-watch that then. I suppose the the telemetry info would have to made completely bidirectional but the rebuilding of the crashed cars wouldn't be fun.
Well, he said it would be expensive!
Apparently the United States Grand Prix is going to be held in Austin, Texas
http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2010/05/25/a-grand-prix-in-austin/
Dave Baumann
26-May-2010, 20:31
I was kinda hoping for one of the upstate New York locations - it would have been easy to make a nice little holiday out of that with a drive to Montreal and then drive down to the US GP in New York state a week or so later.
Maybe this one will fall through like the Donington venture.
tongue_of_colicab
26-May-2010, 23:37
Who knows. What I read of it they don't even have the land to build the complex on yet and if they want to host a race in 2012 that leaves very little time to get everything done.
Who cares where it is, it's yet another Tilke-landia, aka bad track with no chances for overtaking and safetyzones the size of the damn sahara desert
RobertR1
27-May-2010, 17:11
Who cares where it is, it's yet another Tilke-landia, aka bad track with no chances for overtaking and safetyzones the size of the damn sahara desert
His tracks have no soul in them. Just lifeless crap.
"Tilke Engineering is also due to carry out work on Circuit de Catalunya, Autodromo Nazionale Monza, Nürburgring, Silverstone Circuit and Motorland Aragón."
This piece of shit better not ruin Monza :evil::evil::evil:
tongue_of_colicab
28-May-2010, 10:51
Yeah I wonder why they keep hiring that shithead. I don't think there evey was somebody who liked his work. Not the drivers and not the viewers.
Bernie likes him and I guess that's that.
Lightman
28-May-2010, 21:45
Yeah I wonder why they keep hiring that shithead. I don't think there evey was somebody who liked his work. Not the drivers and not the viewers.
Drivers like Istanbul Park and that's his work as well!
But I agree, one good track don't make good track designer.
Shanghai and Malaysia are well designed I thought.
However what is wrong with Monza? It is amazing to watch the cars screaming past at over 200 mph.
tongue_of_colicab
29-May-2010, 14:10
For those watching the BBC, Am I the only one annoid by the sneaky apple crapPad advertisments?
Oh, Alonso! What are you doing? You now have to drive your heart out tomorrow.
Webber smokes everyone, again. McLaren have made a big step. Looking forward to tomorrow.
It's rather funny, even italian press are now admitting it that Alonso isn't getting even half the "bad mouthing" Kimi would have got if he got the same results Alonso is getting (from italian press)
In fact, Kimi got worse press while doing better than Alonso
itsmydamnation
30-May-2010, 03:25
Oh, Alonso! What are you doing? You now have to drive your heart out tomorrow.
Webber smokes everyone, again. McLaren have made a big step. Looking forward to tomorrow.
not really, we have just come from 2 lower speed tracks, the mclaren smashes the red bull in the first sector (not to many low speed or high down force corners) by 2-3 tens but then gets hammered in sectors 2-3 (high downforce corner 8 and slow corners). dont use absolute time difference to judge where cars are you have to look at the track as well.
what is interesting about that is that sector 2-3 do have quite a lot of stright so that shows just how much better the red bull is though the corners. i watched p1,2,3 and Q and the mclaren looked shocking in those last 3 corners.
there is a big disadvantage being on the dirty side of this track if your in 5th and get a good start you have a chance of jumping both 4th and 2nd. assuming everyone starts well lewis will have to use all his skill just to defend his position. that said webber hasn't been starting that well.
mclarens web site has live telemetry on both drivers
brake percentage never drops below 2% (maybe to keep tyres warm ?)
100% Throttle 2% brake
http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/5927/telem.jpg (http://img245.imageshack.us/i/telem.jpg/)
Holy shit, this is the best race I can remember for years.
Colourless
30-May-2010, 17:04
An awfully good race. Four drivers racing out in front was definately a great thing to see.
chavvdarrr
30-May-2010, 19:27
I think Vettel was out of his mind, why turned right into Webber's car?!?
And Button was alarmed for low fuel... right after he attacked Hamilton :P
i think vettel is starting to show his true colours. He tried this with hamilton and this time he tried it on his own team mate. He really is the new schumacher
tongue_of_colicab
30-May-2010, 22:49
He wants to win. You can't be a nice guy when you want to win. Though that doesnt change the fact that his action wasnt the smartest thing to do... Though I dont think he really wanted such a accident to happen. I think he expected Webber to move out of his way because he was already halfway past him. Obviously Webber had other plans.
And please stop the Schumacher comments. Its not like these things never happend before. For example DC and Hakkinnen also crashed each other out of the race a couple of times and what to think of Senna who in that one race where he had to start on the dirty side of the track from pole said even before the race that if he didnt come out of the first corner in first place, nobody would come out of it. And that is when he and Prost crashed.
itsmydamnation
30-May-2010, 22:50
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2010/05/30/how-vettel-and-webber-got-on-a-collision-course-turkish-gp-team-by-team/
hummmmmm
Good race, but I am concerned about Ferrari. Alonso was sliding all over the place; they need to fix that car.
Webber was lucky not to be taken out by Vettel after they came together. It was Vettel's fault, he turned in at Webber while Webber was going straight.
Hamilton did not look very happy after winning the race, I suspect he's angry that the team let Button attack him after he was told both of them was saving fuel. You didn't see Hamilton pumping his fist in the air when he crossed the line, he didn't celebrate when he got out of the car and he was very subdued on the top step of the podium.
Vettel was going to pass Webber anyway, the straight has quite a way to go, then he pulled that stupid move. I think he was trying to do the scare tactic move of some sort, like Schumacher attempted to Hamilton when he was passed, but Vettel made contact. Vettel only got himself to blame.
Hamilton-Button was fun, too bad team-order came in. Save fuel, that's a good one. Mercedes needs to improve their car, Webber crashed, pit and was still comfortably in front of them. Ferrari performed poorly.
vjPiedPiper
31-May-2010, 04:06
Very dissapointed in Vettel. Guess it just goes to show his immaturity (in the spot.)
If it had been a driver from a different team, would there have been a challenge or something Webber could try and lodge?
A few reports saying that Webber was told to go to an fuel-saving engine mode, and he then suggested that maybe Vettel did not? Is "Fuel saving" engine mode the new "let the other driver in the team stay ahead"?
Good race all up, thought Webbers post race comments (int the official press conference at least) were pretty sedate calm given how screwed he got.
How many times now have Vettel (and Webber) crashed when trying to overtake?
Anyway, here are Joe Saward's thoughts on the incident
http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2010/05/30/intrigue-at-red-bull-racing/
Hamilton did not look very happy after winning the race, I suspect he's angry that the team let Button attack him after he was told both of them was saving fuel. You didn't see Hamilton pumping his fist in the air when he crossed the line, he didn't celebrate when he got out of the car and he was very subdued on the top step of the podium.
I interpreted the fuel warnings from the pit as "All right, we've got a 1-2 finish in the bag, cruise to the end". Ie. a team order in disguise. I think Hamilton got mad because Button pushed to overtake, then fought back.
Twenty seconds after the overtaking, the McLaren pit was on the radio telling Button that "fuel is critical", which I interpreted as "If you do that again, you'll be driving a mario kart next race".
Button was frustrated because he had nutured his tires early in the race, and would have had the faster car towards the end of the race.
Best F1 race for years,
Cheers
chavvdarrr
31-May-2010, 07:48
Hamilton did not look very happy after winning the race, I suspect he's angry that the team let Button attack him after he was told both of them was saving fuel. You didn't see Hamilton pumping his fist in the air when he crossed the line, he didn't celebrate when he got out of the car and he was very subdued on the top step of the podium.Or, he was not happy because understands Button's tyres were better near the end, and he would've overtaken him if not for team orders?
The moment when Button slowed down was clearly visible... and it was not when we heard it, but earlier. And Hamilton literally pushed him out of the track.
tongue_of_colicab
31-May-2010, 08:22
Good race all up, thought Webbers post race comments (int the official press conference at least) were pretty sedate calm given how screwed he got.
Well, if you look at it from a WDC point of view Webber got out of it better now than if they would have finished 1 - 2. He has less points, but Vettel got no points at all so he's actually leading by more than when they would have finished.
Plus I doubt the team will be very happy with what Vettel did so in the end it might all go Webber's way because of this.
Lightman
31-May-2010, 12:22
Well, if you look at it from a WDC point of view Webber got out of it better now than if they would have finished 1 - 2. He has less points, but Vettel got no points at all so he's actually leading by more than when they would have finished.
Plus I doubt the team will be very happy with what Vettel did so in the end it might all go Webber's way because of this.
Problem is - Team is blaming Webber for this crash ...
On another note I'm happy for forgotten by everyone Renault!
Kubica was faster than both Mercedes cars in a race trim, but even rookie Petrov drove well this time and fought nicely with Alonso.
This shows that Renault's development programme is going in the right direction, they are every race closer to RedBull.
1st race RBR was over 1.1s quicker in quali than Renault
following races they were closing the gap to arrive at 0.8s behind RBR in Barcelona.
I will not count excellent performance from Monaco due to driver effect and very short track.
So the last race Renault was only 0.7s behind RBR and that on the track where RBR excels.
I think that Canada can bring them another podium finish based on pure performance.
BTW Ferrari will bounce back, but I'm not sure if that will be enough for them to win Championship this year.
Look at this
http://www.break.com/index/awesome-f1-simulator.html
tongue_of_colicab
31-May-2010, 18:38
20k? And than we have people complaining about the 150 euro's natal is going to cost lol :P Though the way that thing moves makes it look more like a motogp simulator than a F1 sim. I know its hard to generate the forces you have in a real car but this is totally different and more like a bike/rollercoaster.
WhiningKhan
31-May-2010, 19:27
Though the way that thing moves makes it look more like a motogp simulator than a F1 sim. I know its hard to generate the forces you have in a real car but this is totally different and more like a bike/rollercoaster.
You haven't tried one, have you?
10 years (!) ago, I got to try a rally simulator, built on chassis of a real rally car, with hydraulics moving and shaking it about. It was actually based on Colin McRae Rally (the original one), and being able to drive all the tracks with my eyes closed on my PC at the time, I just floored it at the start. After crashing in the first corner, I was genuinely scared for the rest of the stage.
You don't want to have multiple Gs sustained on corners and braking with a simulator, because that is a simulator - otherwise only real professional drivers would be able to use it. If the system is capable of sharp transient accelerations, the <1G maximum it can reach sustained is more than enough for a convincing experience. The target audience is pencil-necked geeks, anyway...
Though the way that thing moves makes it look more like a motogp simulator than a F1 sim.
More like a flight sim ;)
tongue_of_colicab
31-May-2010, 21:29
Lol yes you are right. Totally forgot about that. They should mount everything in 2 circles though. That way you could also make it go inverted and make yourself feel like a real jetfighter pilot :D
Or, he was not happy because understands Button's tyres were better near the end, and he would've overtaken him if not for team orders?
The moment when Button slowed down was clearly visible... and it was not when we heard it, but earlier. And Hamilton literally pushed him out of the track.
I doubt the tyres or the fuel had much to do with anything. The driver in front still has the upper hand, being able to dictate pace and to drive in a defensive manner. With the aero this season, overtaking isn't easy unless the front driver welcomes the effort. In this case, Hamilton clearly wasn't anticipating Button to pull a move on him, hence the reason why he didn't defend until he noticed it (too late) that Button was doing an overtake.
As for pushing out - Hamilton had the inside line, just as Button did in the 2nd corner after his pass. Irregardless how close it was - from Hamiltons perspective, they were both saving fuel and not driving in a defensive manner and thus shouldn't have had to be in that position from the beginning. Given that they obviously get on well (Lewis and Jensen), I suspect he wasn't too pleased about being put in the situation where he had to retake his position in such a manner. His initial thoughts might have been also with the team who didn't inform him that Button was coming up, despite the "saving fuel" heads-up.
BTW: Here's a good article as well, by Martin Brundle / BBC on the situation Vettel/Mark and Button/Hamilton:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8714410.stm
I agree with Brundle. If Webber had just let Vettel take the position without fighting for it, he should just have quit. Vettel needs to mature, because this was an immature move of great arrogance.
Here's the official Red Bull story with analysis by Joe Saward
http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2010/06/01/red-bull-racing-the-official-story/
After giving some thought about the Redbull situation, I am more or less certain that they did try to engineer a Vettel victory and were cought with their pants down trying to cover it up.
In Helmut Marko's public outting while putting the blame on Webber, there are indications that Vettel was told to seize his opportunity and apparently, Webbers mechanic was to inform Mark over the radio to let Vettel pass. To back this up in a justifyable way, fuel differences were cited (Vettel being able to be 1 lap longer on a more potent setting, while Webber turned down his in lap 38 - 2 laps before the overtake attempt). Problem is, Mark either didn't get the memo (accoarding to some rumours, the mechanic didn't inform Mark that he was to let Vettel pass) or he did, but decided to give room, but just enough and not make it easy, being not happy with the situation. That would explain the his move that was neither very defensive nor very inviting.
Vettel then seizes the opportunity on lap 40, comes up next to Mark on the left side and tries to pass. Webber doesn't yield an inch - Vettel goes right and hits Webber and the rest is history.
Now, if this were anything like a normal overtake situation between two racers (irregardless if within the same team or not), I sincerely doubt Vettel would for one, turn right in an effort to get on the racing line and two, after it goes wrong, to get out, pointing mad and crazy gestures at Mark. When he was overtaking, Vettel was expecting Webber to conceed position.
This is the only logical explanation, why Vettel insists that it wasn't his fault and the team, after he had returned to the pit, openly comfortes him and various people within the team put the blame into Webbers hand.
It also explains why Webber would be so diplomatic at the post-race interview. To me, he nearly looked as if he felt guilt and was trying to justify that the accident happened because Vettel moved to his right into him (two instances - right after the race to Button and then during the post-race interview with Hamilton). His comment about to "dig deeper" also implies there's more to it than meets the eye.
If this was anything like an ordinary race incident, Webber would be furious to have been put in that situation and having lost 10 points. The way it is though, I think he knows that Vettel is the clear favorite at the team and that they would rather have Vettel in the win. It also raises questions about Webbers future at Redbull. He doesn't have a contract for next year yet and I think these latest events (and his good performance) might not help him much.
itsmydamnation
02-Jun-2010, 12:41
you should go on some ozzy motorsport forums its almost rioting in the streets :twisted:
Lightman
02-Jun-2010, 20:13
And then reports tell Webber is extending contract with RedBull :?:
Funny politics in F1 lately :smile:
Webber was letting Vettel passed in the incident though. Webber could have easily blocked him so they won't be side by side. It was Vettel silly moved that caught Webber by suprised. When Vettel swerved into Webber you can see Webber was shocked by his late reaction trying to avoid Vettel. I think Webber was expecting Vettel to go straight and brake normaly and he would just drop to second like Red Bull had plan. Webber wasn't going to make the order obvious that's for sure but he was letting Vettel passed.
No, that's ridiculous. If he was letting Vettel through, he would have braked earlier. What he did was give Vettel room and not close the door because they are in the same team.
When they crashed they were still some way from their braking point, if Webber brake too early on that straight, it would look too obvious it was team order. Webber was already yielding, Vettel was ahead like half car length in front. At that point Webber was going to give Vettel the position surely hadn't Vettel cut into him.
Watching the replay from Webber point of view, it was just Vettel pops up and next second crash. Maybe he was thinking of letting Vettel pass him on the outside, since there was more room there and a safer move. Maybe he was shocked too that Vettel chose the inside line.
itsmydamnation
03-Jun-2010, 04:22
webber wasn't yielding, he was playing track position. if he blocked vettel down the inside vettel could have gone down the center. Webber was trying to keep vettel on the dirty part of the track so he would have to break sooner also take turn 9 slower then what webber could. Webber would also have prime position for turns 10,11,12.
Horner is going down quickly in my book. In an exclusive interview with autosport.com, he now admitts that Webber radioed the team (between lap 38 and the collision) if Vettel could back off a bit. The response was this was not possible because of Hamilton.
As a reason why Webber was slower, he cites that Webber was probably having problems with his rear tyres. So, first it was the fuel - now it's suddenly the tyres? :roll:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84093
Horner is not really in charge of the team. Helmut Marko is Red Bull Didi's man in the team and is pretty much in charge, and Helmut Marko said after the race that it was Webber's fault.
I sincerely doubt Vettel would for one, turn right in an effort to get on the racing line a
I don't, last time he was squeezed, by hamilton he did the same thing
I say again, how many successful overtakes has Vettel actually done?
Why is Webber taking all of this so well?
No comments from Vettel either sice the incident.
I think any driver in a team deserves more respect than that given so far by RBR to Webber. I hope he continues to dominate that twerp Vettel if only to just piss off Horner and company.
And Webber being told to go on a different mix of fuel and Hamilton told to save fuel whilst both their team mates have a go at them a lap later shows how competitive these guys are once racing. And... to me anyway, shows what arseholes they can be.
If the situations were reversed I think Webber and Hamilton would have done the same though.
Lightman
03-Jun-2010, 19:35
I say again, how many successful overtakes has Vettel actually done?
I remember successful defence move during final laps of Australia GP 2009. He successfully putted himself and Kubica into retirement with almost exactly same move as most recent one!
itsmydamnation
03-Jun-2010, 23:25
he also run up webbers arse under safety car :lol:
dizietsma
04-Jun-2010, 07:36
I doubt the tyres or the fuel had much to do with anything. The driver in front still has the upper hand, being able to dictate pace and to drive in a defensive manner. With the aero this season, overtaking isn't easy unless the front driver welcomes the effort. In this case, Hamilton clearly wasn't anticipating Button to pull a move on him, hence the reason why he didn't defend until he noticed it (too late) that Button was doing an overtake.
As for pushing out - Hamilton had the inside line, just as Button did in the 2nd corner after his pass. Irregardless how close it was - from Hamiltons perspective, they were both saving fuel and not driving in a defensive manner and thus shouldn't have had to be in that position from the beginning. Given that they obviously get on well (Lewis and Jensen), I suspect he wasn't too pleased about being put in the situation where he had to retake his position in such a manner. His initial thoughts might have been also with the team who didn't inform him that Button was coming up, despite the "saving fuel" heads-up.
I like this analysis or theory, sounds very plausable.
I get the idea that Vettel expected it to be easier than it was but instead wasn't given as much room as he expected. Then he expected Mark to give in, but Mark didn't ease off and so when the rather annoyed Vettel thought he had just got past and jinked over to show his displeasure he wasn't quite as far in front as he thought he was.
Dave Baumann
07-Jun-2010, 12:55
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84202
That throws a fresh light on the Macca incident.
Sounds plausible. I wonder what would have happened had Button kept the lead when the race finished.
I would imagine internally it would be fireworks at McLaren.
Ah, Dave beat me to it. :)
Definately explains why Hamilton looked a bit unhappy on the podium.
In other news, Webber has re-signed for an additional year at RedBull Racing for 2011. (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84204)
Lightman
07-Jun-2010, 19:27
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84202
That throws a fresh light on the Macca incident.
Looks like we will have pretty interesting Montreal race this weekend!
I wonder if that Hamilton overtake, was that done with Button instructed to give position back or not? It was an impressive move none the less.
McLaren have now said that it was Phil Phrew's opinion that Button would not pass.
Whatever, Lewis was pissed immediately after the race and maybe he'll trust his pit wall less. Who would put money on Lewis getting a new engineer?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/andrewbenson/2010/06/new_evidence_for_hamiltons_dis.html#more
More news on the Hamilton and Button incident but also news that Christian Horner lied about Webber asking the team to get Vettel to back off. He was asking about the engine settings for Vettel as he had a greater straight line speed than him.
It is quite clear that the move on Webber was a engineered to hand Vettel victory of the Turkish GP however Webber did not get the memo as his race engineer was "preoccuppied" to pass on the message.
As to the Button/Hamilton tussle - bit of a non-story but shows that there is still some element of team orders.
However the real story still is Red Bull trying to engineer a race victory over one driver (equal points in the championship) should be investigated by the FIA.
Vettel and Red Bull lost a lot of fans and even with evidence to the contrary, Vettel still believes he did not make an error. If Vettel wants wins handed to him fans will remember only that about him, much like a certain other overrated German driver that cheated when he couldn't get his way.
What a ridiculous qualifying! That was some tense stuff, really great.
Hamilton pulled out a stunner, out-qualifying both Red Bulls. Webber P2, Vettel P3, Alonso in P4, Button P5 and Liuzzi finally out-qualified Sutil, maybe putting to rest the rumours about him being replaced.
Schumi fell out in Q2, out-qualified by both Williams'.
Watching Hamilton jumping out and pushing his car was priceless!
The team have been fined 10k for it
itsmydamnation
13-Jun-2010, 13:18
its all going to come down to safety cars. i wonder if theams will need to do two stops ( 2 sets of hard + 1 of soft)
tongue_of_colicab
13-Jun-2010, 14:54
What a ridiculous qualifying! That was some tense stuff, really great.
Hamilton pulled out a stunner, out-qualifying both Red Bulls. Webber P2, Vettel P3, Alonso in P4, Button P5 and Liuzzi finally out-qualified Sutil, maybe putting to rest the rumours about him being replaced.
Schumi fell out in Q2, out-qualified by both Williams'.
Watching Hamilton jumping out and pushing his car was priceless!
Dammit! I missed it all because my mate blew up my PSU while gaming and I couldn't get power back in the house because I didn't have some shortcircuit breakerplugg thingy (dont know how you call it in english) so I had to go to the houseboss to see if he could fix power back into the house same way. Which he did but at that point I only saw Hamiton take pole :(
Bad day. No Quali and I had to spend 85 euro's on a new PSU :( Luckily I think the BCC will probably show all the interesting parts of quali in their pre race show in about a hour or so :)
Very good race, many lead changes and overtaking and accidents. Congrat to Hamilton.
entity279
13-Jun-2010, 22:41
Indeed good race.
Unfortunately I was forced to watch in the Romanian national channel. The commentators there were talking about some casino in Montreal during Alonso's overtaking Hamilton :???:
Dave Baumann
13-Jun-2010, 23:51
The Casino is the building in the middle of the circuit.
Anyway, mildly burned, pretty tiring weekend for us but great seeing it live though. And I can't recommend Kangaroo TV enough.
Alonso was held up twice in traffic, once when he was leading and doing fast laps before pitting and later when Button overtook.
Still, a brilliant race. Schumacher drove like a hooligan, Kubica did a very dangerous move into the pit lane and Red Bull gambled on tyres and it didn't work (or, McLarens and Alonso gambled and it did work).
Hamilton drove very well and Red Bull must be so pissed at all their missed opportunities in the earlier races.
Next we have Valencia where Ferrari will presumably have a big update, so maybe Alonso can do some magic at home.
dizietsma
14-Jun-2010, 06:45
Another enjoyable race, the tyres helped make it exciting, hopefully Bridgestone will do same again in future, bring tyres that are marginal, to spice it up.
chavvdarrr
14-Jun-2010, 12:02
Another enjoyable race, the tyres helped make it exciting, hopefully Bridgestone will do same again in future, bring tyres that are marginal, to spice it up.Afaik it was not due to tires but the new asphalt laid on the circuit + low temperatures.
Afaik it was not due to tires but the new asphalt laid on the circuit + low temperatures.
I don't think it was new asphalt, just that there hadn't been any "proper" races at the circuit since F1 was last there two years ago - most circuits that F1 visit are regularly used by other sports which lay down a similar type of rubber to the F1 tyres on to the circuit, which means that when the F1 cars go out there is already a fair amount of grip. When the circuit isn't used, the layers of rubber are washed away, and plant life (moss etc.) starts to grow in gaps in the asphalt, making the circuit more slippery.
I thought kangaroo tv used the bbc coverage ?
the bbc presenters usually say hello to kangaroo tv viewers at the start of every show
Lightman
14-Jun-2010, 19:25
Alonso was held up twice in traffic, once when he was leading and doing fast laps before pitting and later when Button overtook.
Still, a brilliant race. Schumacher drove like a hooligan, Kubica did a very dangerous move into the pit lane and Red Bull gambled on tyres and it didn't work (or, McLarens and Alonso gambled and it did work).
Hamilton drove very well and Red Bull must be so pissed at all their missed opportunities in the earlier races.
Next we have Valencia where Ferrari will presumably have a big update, so maybe Alonso can do some magic at home.
Yes, Aloso could of won the race if not traffic, but it could happen to anyone.
Kubica though did that move to avoid accident. Just read his explanation :wink:
If McLaren really can bring 0.5s worth of upgrades (as Martin W. said in BBC coverage) to Silverstone then I can see them winning this year constructors.
Valencia next! Battle will heat up even more :twisted:
Schumacher, ran out of grip thanks to one puncture, gotta hand it to the guy, he is still very competitive in nature, with car like that most drivers would just give up.
Maybe bring back refuelling, decrease the size of max fuel they can carry, create a GP with 5-6 pit stops. Probably not. But it's good how the team has to use up all their rubbers.
RobertR1
15-Jun-2010, 03:39
Valencia will be boring outside of people hitting walls but the track is too narrow.
Lightman
15-Jun-2010, 14:23
Valencia will be boring outside of people hitting walls but the track is too narrow.
And the possibility of rain is what? 0.1%?
So I agree, it will be boring outside of Qualification. But maybe tires will play a role again a bit ... I wish!
It may be a pipe dream but they have modified the track for this year, so maybe there will be actual racing this year.
Lightman
16-Jun-2010, 17:01
It may be a pipe dream but they have modified the track for this year, so maybe there will be actual racing this year.
Didn't know that ...
Apparently Ferrari will bring new exhaust system(RedBull like) + aero upgrades to Valencia, they reckon 0.7+ second faster thanks to them.
Renault will have F-Duct and new front suspension to improve mechanical grip and turn in.
Also Renault, McLaren and Williams are implementing RedBull like exhaust to their cars for Silverstone :eek:.
Good summer ahead :!:
RobertR1
16-Jun-2010, 19:52
I'm expecting Mercedes to bail on the 2010 season and focus on 2011. Speed had interesting commentary in the last broadcast stating that Merc had already burned through their 2010 budget.
Dave Baumann
16-Jun-2010, 20:58
I don't think it was new asphalt
Most of the main braking and accelleration points did have new asphalt and that contributed to the issues the drivers had initially. This was following the fact that a few years back the track was getting ripped apart from the levels of traction being generated from the F1 cars and it was actually disintegrating in the practice sessions - the harsh Canadian winters are pretty bad on the track and without the track being used much lat year they needed to lay some new surface down.
I thought kangaroo tv used the bbc coverage ?
the bbc presenters usually say hello to kangaroo tv viewers at the start of every show
Kangaroo TV has an option for listening to BBC coverage, however it takes audio and video feeds from the FIA. So, not only do you have the current TV picture, you have options for all the incar views, a quad split incar view, the live timing stats, etc, and you can also get the pit to car radio transmissions. Very cool.
I think Davros misunderstood or didn't read the last word in that sentence. :)
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84544
Bridgestone may allocate the super-soft more often after the British Grand Prix if they can guarantee that there will be no blistering as they want to provide a safe tyre above else.
Jenson Button sued Mercedes after they refused to give him the car he drove to world championship victory as a gift.
edit: they settled and gave him the car
Lightman
22-Jun-2010, 22:58
Renault will not run F-Duct at the upcoming Valencia GP contrary to what was reported earlier.
On the positive side: new floor, front wing and suspension will be used to improve car performance.
BTW Kubica won all 12 Super Stages of Rally del Salento in A6 class (Renault Clio S1600) last Saturday :cool:
http://www.rallybuzz.com/results-rally-del-salento-10/
FIA World Council has met recently and this is the result:
Pirell is sole tyre supplier for next year.
F-duct and other devices which change the aerodynamic properties of the car by driver movement are banned except for a movable rear wing which is only enabled after two laps and only when within 1 second of the car in front. It will be controlled by electronics and it will be disabled the first time the driver gets on the brakes. It is solely for overtaking purposes.
The full FIA World Council statement
The full statement from Wednesday's meeting of the FIA World Motor Sport Council: Tyres
Pirelli has been selected as the single tyre supplier for the FIA Formula One World Championship for a period of three years, commencing in 2011. The sole supplier will undertake to strictly respect the sporting and technical regulations implemented by the FIA.
"Competitor's staff" FIA Licence
A proposal relating to specific licences for members of staff of competitors entered in the FIA World Championships has been submitted to the Formula One Commission. This is under consideration for implementation in the FIA Formula One World Championship from the start of 2011, with a view to inclusion in other FIA World Championships in the future.
Safety car
With immediate effect, no car may overtake until it has passed the first safety car line for the first time when the safety car is returning to the pits. However, if the safety car is still deployed at the beginning of the last lap, or is deployed during the last lap, it will enter the pit lane at the end of the lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking.
General safety
With immediate effect, any car being driven unnecessarily slowly, erratically, or which is deemed potentially dangerous to other drivers, will be reported to the stewards. This will apply whether any such car is being driven on the track, the pit entry or the pit lane.
In order to ensure cars are not driven unnecessarily slowly on in-laps during qualifying or reconnaissance laps when the pit exit is opened for the race, drivers must stay below the maximum time set by the FIA between the safety car line after the pit exit and safety car line before the pit entry. The maximum time will be determined by the race director at each event prior to the first day of practice, but may be amended during the event if necessary.
The grid
From 2011, any driver whose best qualifying lap exceeds 107 per cent of the fastest Q1 qualifying time will not be allowed to take part in the race. Under exceptional circumstances, however, which may include setting a suitable lap time in a free practice session, the stewards may permit the car to start the race. Should there be more than one driver accepted in this manner, the grid order will be determined by the stewards.
Driver adjustable bodywork
From 2011, adjustable bodywork may be activated by the driver at any time prior to the start of the race and, for the sole purpose of improving overtaking opportunities during the race, after the driver has completed two laps.
The driver may only activate the adjustable bodywork in the race when he has been notified via the control electronics that it is enabled. It will only be enabled if the driver is less than one second behind another at any of the pre-determined positions around each circuit. The system will be disabled the first time the driver uses the brakes after the system has been activated.
The FIA may, after consulting all the competitors, adjust the time proximity in order to ensure the purpose of the adjustable bodywork is met.
Aerodynamic influence
With the exception of the parts necessary for the driver adjustable bodywork, any car system, device or procedure which uses driver movement as a means of altering the aerodynamic characteristics of the car is prohibited from 2011.
Weight
From 2011, the minimum weight of the car must not be less than 640 kg at all times during the event.
Fuel draining
With immediate effect, if a sample of fuel is required after a practice session the car concerned must have first been driven back to the pits under its own power.
Licences
Based on his career resume and comparative F1 testing times, the World Council has approved the granting of a four-race probationary super license to Chinese driver Ho-Pin Tung.
So who's he driving for
Tung is connected to Genii, which is owned by that guy Lopez who bought into Renault F1.
Silent_Buddha
23-Jun-2010, 22:49
FIA World Council has met recently and this is the result:
Pirell is sole tyre supplier for next year.
Hate that. Wish there were multiple tire providers as in the past.
F-duct and other devices which change the aerodynamic properties of the car by driver movement are banned except for a movable rear wing which is only enabled after two laps and only when within 1 second of the car in front. It will be controlled by electronics and it will be disabled the first time the driver gets on the brakes. It is solely for overtaking purposes.
Also only available at "pre-determined positions."
Regards,
SB
Yeah, I wish there was a tyre war too, but Michelin seems keen to compete in F1 so maybe they will join in the future.
Amazing lap by Vettel to clinch pole ahead of Webber and Hamilton. Alonso couldn't get the options to work and ended up fourth.
I am not super-hopeful about the race tomorrow, but we'll see. Maybe Alonso can do a magic trick for his home fans.
Lightman
27-Jun-2010, 10:02
Amazing lap by Vettel to clinch pole ahead of Webber and Hamilton. Alonso couldn't get the options to work and ended up fourth.
I am not super-hopeful about the race tomorrow, but we'll see. Maybe Alonso can do a magic trick for his home fans.
Soft tyres didn't work for both Ferrari and Renault (new floor), if not that they should be ahead of Lewis (and he knew that :wink:). Anyway race is today and lets hope F1 drivers are more cautious than GP2 ones at the start :twisted:
chavvdarrr
27-Jun-2010, 17:47
so.
Anyone still thinking Hamilton is NOT treated like a semi god?
passing safety car is allowed... for some people. /sarcasm
tongue_of_colicab
27-Jun-2010, 18:07
Though I don't like hamilton at all in this case I can understand what he did. It was clear he wasn't quite sure what to do, If he was still allowed to pass before the second line or not. If you can still overtake the safetycar while its in the pitlane exit all hamilton had to do is keep going instead of holding back a sort while and it would have been fine.
But it ended up to be unfair yes. Afterall Alonso and Massa could have blasted past the safety car, take the drive trough penalty and they would have probably ended up way better than they did now.
Oh and Webbers crash was awsome to see. I was like WTF?! :D :D :D its flying! the onboard shot was even better. First you saw a Lotus, than you saw air, than you saw the world upside down and than the road. Though for I moment is was worrying if he would just get out of the car without any injury but he did. Must have been one hell of a rollercoaster ride :P
When I was watching it, I had to think about 2 songs right away. ''I believe I can fly'' and ''What goes up, must come down'' hehe.
AlphaWolf
27-Jun-2010, 18:07
so.
Anyone still thinking Hamilton is NOT treated like a semi god?
passing safety car is allowed... for some people. /sarcasm
he was given a drive through penalty, although it didn't cost him any position because it took them 20 minutes to rule on it.
chavvdarrr
27-Jun-2010, 18:50
he was given a drive through penalty, although it didn't cost him any position because it took them 20 minutes to rule on it.
yep, stewards had to be sure not to rule it too early or too harsh.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3lFmUDoBZs
That was insane. If Alonso and Massa had just overtaken the SC like Hamilton and taken their penalties they would be much further up the grid.
Kobayashi was good, though. He's back to what he was in the Toyota at the end of last year.
5 second penalties for the people who didn't follow their deltas? Bullshit, should have been a drive through so at least 20 seconds.
I've been thinking a bit more about the Hamilton SC incident. Isn't what Hamilton did akin to not respecting the red lights at the end of the pit lane when the snake is going by? I personally think Hamilton should have been shown the black flag.
I've been thinking a bit more about the Hamilton SC incident. Isn't what Hamilton did akin to not respecting the red lights at the end of the pit lane when the snake is going by? I personally think Hamilton should have been shown the black flag.
Hamilton slowed down upon seing the safety car. At that point the safety car hadn't exited the pit lane yet (curb, not just white line between the track and the pit lane), he then sped up and overtook the SC when it had entered the race track proper (only white line seperating pit exit lane and race track).
If Hamilton had just gone full throttle there wouldn't have been any controversy. As it is, it is a clear violation. Twenty seconds wasn't enough. You could see how disgruntled Heinz Harald Frentzen (advisor to the stewards in Valencia) looked when he realized Hamilton wouldn't lose position from the twenty second penalty. The penalty should have been larger.
The one who really got shafted was Alonso.
I think there is a fundamental problem with the way the safety car is being used. It is basically a lottery ticket for some and ruin for others. IMO, the race cars should line up behind the SC in race order before the race is started again.
Cheers
tongue_of_colicab
28-Jun-2010, 09:09
Well the whole idea of the SC is it picks up the leader but than they do need to make sure to do that and not just let it go out whenever they feel like it.
Well the whole idea of the SC is it picks up the leader but than they do need to make sure to do that and not just let it go out whenever they feel like it.
Well, I can understand they had to deploy it instantly this weekend, the crash was spectacular, can't believe Webber just walked away.
Cheers
That was insane. If Alonso and Massa had just overtaken the SC like Hamilton and taken their penalties they would be much further up the grid.
Kobayashi was good, though. He's back to what he was in the Toyota at the end of last year.
5 second penalties for the people who didn't follow their deltas? Bullshit, should have been a drive through so at least 20 seconds.
Hamilton was very fortunate, yes. But his cause was also helped by the split second decision he had to make while running alongside the safety car, slowing down by not being sure and then having it pass him just before the line (probably not even to his knowledge). At this point, the safety car was also behind the pit lane safety line.This kind of 'unfortunate incident' is a lot less severe then if you'd have someone overtake the safety car while it's on the track where it's supposed to pick up the runners.
Hamiltons cause was also helped by Saubers gamble of keeping Kobayashi out in 3rd position. You can't blame Hamilton for his fortunate situation in this case. Not only did he extend his lead over Kobayashi to put him into that unique situation, but the pitlane is also rather short in Valencia which benefited his cause. In any other GP, he would have dropped right into the pack. Also, it's not as if the drive-through didn't do any harm - it effectively gave Vettel an easy win.
Since safety cars have been part of races, it has always favoured and disadvantaged many strategies by teams that worked hard to gain an advantage. Yesterday, it fortunately worked out for Hamilton despite the drive-through and it didn't for Ferrari. It's as simple as that.
For what ever it's worth, had Hamilton not slipped in front the safety car, Ferrari wouldn't have gained any position at all anyway, so they can cry and winge all they want IMO. They're definately not the first to have been shafted by the safety car and won't be the last either.
Dr Evil
28-Jun-2010, 13:34
I think there is a fundamental problem with the way the safety car is being used. It is basically a lottery ticket for some and ruin for others. IMO, the race cars should line up behind the SC in race order before the race is started again.
I agree with this. There is nothing more annoying and unsportsmanlike thing than a safety car altering race results.
I agree with this. There is nothing more annoying and unsportsmanlike thing than a safety car altering race results.
While this is true, there isn't really any way around it. This problem was very evident last year already - especially with the factor of the pit being closed until the correct order behind the safety car is established and teams started to run into trouble that were scheduled to have a refueling-stop before that and couldn't without getting either a penality or running dry on track.
Now with refueling gone, the situation has become better, but you still have the problem that a safety car will always benefit some teams and their strategies. In the case of an early safety car, it clearly benefits the teams running on the option tyres while the teams on the hard tyres are left with a huge disadvantage of not getting a "free stop" effectively. If a driver also gains a healthy lead, these are also neutralized, like Webber in Monaco. Thanks to his driving, the quality of the tyres and the difficult overtaking situation there, it didn't impact the race. In any other race, where tyre-wear and underfueling strategies are crucial, it would have.
This isn't anything new.
I do have to say though, I find it highly amusing that Alonso is so sissy about Hamiltons rather relatively innocent fortune, while he himself (and the team) was the main benefitor from what was clearly and undoubtly "race manipulation" by having the team force a safety car last year. Oh the irony...
Dr Evil
28-Jun-2010, 17:46
While this is true, there isn't really any way around it. This problem was very evident last year already.
Yep I was in no way saying that this occasion was somehow worse than previous ones. The safety car is not as bad anymore, but it's still bad. Actually I don't care about it quite as much anymore, because I don't care who wins anymore, but it's still very annoying to see people's races ruined by the safety car. There are ways around it, but the solutions would probably be too complicated to be implemented properly.
They could pit the cars and release them with correct pre-safetycar gaps to the track. Yep that's a hassle, but imo better alternative.
Dave Baumann
28-Jun-2010, 21:50
passing safety car is allowed... for some people. /sarcasm
Testing major updates in season is allowed for some teams if its called a "filming day" as well. :wink:
Testing major updates in season is allowed for some teams if its called a "filming day" as well. :wink:
Are you seriously comparing passing the safety car, which can have serious safety repercussions with a testing agreement interpretation?
And if we are going to start doing this, what about a team that sends its driver out in qualifying without enough fuel to complete it?
Dave Baumann
28-Jun-2010, 22:35
I'm saying the "crying foul" is never going to get anywhere because there are always transgressions, intentional or accidental. Depedant on who you favour you are always going to see one thing as the worst thing on earth while overlooking others for someone else.
To point out that both of Mclaren's cases were marginal and you can't say they were premeditated. Hamilton's call on Sunday was a spur of the moment thing and the safety issue would be no different had he been a meter in front of the SC as opposed to a meter behind, its just one would have been allowed in the rules and one wouldn't; he was punished for his judgement.
The qualifying case we don't know if it was premediated or it - it could have been, but it could also have been a mistake. When they found the fuel level they made a judgement call which to adhear to - the one in the rulebook, or the one that was faxed to teams. Again, they were penalised.
The issue was that he overtook the SC when its lights were not green, which is very serious.
In my opinion it is like running the red lights at the end of the pit lane.
The issue was that he overtook the SC when its lights were not green, which is very serious.
In my opinion it is like running the red lights at the end of the pit lane.
No, the issue was that he didn't pass it before the safety car line. If he had, there wouldn't be any controversy, irregardless of what lights the SC was displaying.
No, the issue was that he didn't pass it before the safety car line. If he had, there wouldn't be any controversy, irregardless of what lights the SC was displaying.
Okay, the real issue is that Hamilton's hesitation made it so that neither Hamilton (because of the drive through) and Alonso (because he was stuck behind the SC for an extra lap) could fight Vettel for the victory.
Meh, this sucks.
The real "issue" is people seem to believe that moaning a-hole Alonso was hard done too on purpose when it's quite clear it wasn't intentional.
Alonso is a big baby that needs to grow up.
The real "issue" is people seem to believe that moaning a-hole Alonso was hard done too on purpose when it's quite clear it wasn't intentional.
Alonso is a big baby that needs to grow up.
Next time you accuse someone for hating Hamilton, you need to remember this post.
Lightman
29-Jun-2010, 19:56
The SC rules are very vague at the moment and not very well thought.
Also leaving measure of penalty for serious infringements like passing SC to race director is just asking for problems. If it would be clearly said that this will result in drive through then I think not only LH would overtake it on this occasion, on the other hand if it would be clear you're getting black flagged then even Lewis wouldn't hesitate and stayed with everyone else behind SC.
Same goes for speeding cars under SC. The first car to dive into pitlane was RK and he had 1.2s to slow down to his target delta while in the middle of a corner. Quite unrealistic other than bringing his Renault to complete stand still. Who writes these rules?
At least now FIA will look into SC rules again and try to come up with better solutions.
Roll on Silverstone please!
I can't wait to see them all race in a rain again (2 weeks off sunshine we had now for sure brings next 2 months of rain :wink:).
Next time you accuse someone for hating Hamilton, you need to remember this post.
Alonso was an embarrassment they way he was talking on the radio, even you must realise that.
He just cannot handle that Lewis is beating him comfortably still. He's a petulant child.
It's nothing to do with hating him, he's just got a very bad attitude.
What Alonso and Ferrari has said has been said in fervour. It is the same as Vettel making crazy gestures after he and Webber collided in Turkey.
DJ12, you are very dishonest and inconsistent in our discussions here. You jump at other people when we criticise Hamilton and accuse us of hating him, and then when you do the same thing, it is all right. Either that people can be criticised or stop criticising yourself. I am pretty sure you won't, though, because you have never even tried to be reasonable.
Alonso has apologised for his hot-headed remarks
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84896
Well done, Fernando.
The SC rules are very vague at the moment and not very well thought.
Quite right. The only thing that bugs me about the whole SC controversy is that it's essentially an old topic. I've watched F1 long enough to see great efforts by small struggling teams (i.e. Sauber) being ruined by 'bad luck' of the SC coming out in exactly the worst possible moment - over and over again.
Yet, once it happens to Ferrari, the whole world must take part in their pitty and bad fortune and all rules must be changed and looked into.
Of course, I agree that the SC rules can and should be changed for the better. I still think Schumacher/Brawn got punished wrongfully in Monaco (it was essentially the race directors fault for giving conflicting signals) and that the latest punishments handed out by not being within the delta times to be a bit overexagerated - at least from what I have read from the teams about what happened there.
Having said that and coming back to Alonsos/Ferraris behaviour - I can somewhat relate to the frustration. Since Bahrain, they've been in the critics of the all too vocal Italian press due to their subpar and underwhelming performance. Alonso has also been highly criticized for his on track performance - not consecutively beating his, in many eyes inferior, teammate, jump starts, accidents etc.
Now, in Valencia, home GP and all, it was a grand opportunity not only for Ferrari, but especially Alonso to step up to the chase. The pace in free practice was very good and should have been a return to a top spot. They qualify 4th and 5th and everything looks extremely good for them (especially with Hamiltons car being damaged) right up until the safety car, where everything goes terribly wrong without them doing a single thing wrong.
If Ferraris form wouldn't be that crucial and Alonso not so heavily in the critics, the issue probably wouldn't be as big. But home GP and all - the frustration must be huge within the Ferrari camp.
Just like Schumacher as well btw - who has had his fair share of bad luck as well, having more than one race ruined by tough fortune. And on the other extreme, you have Button that's no doubt been the most lucky chap so far (not to take anything away from his very solid and clear-headed performance and making the best out of situations)...
What Alonso and Ferrari has said has been said in fervour. It is the same as Vettel making crazy gestures after he and Webber collided in Turkey.
DJ12, you are very dishonest and inconsistent in our discussions here. You jump at other people when we criticise Hamilton and accuse us of hating him, and then when you do the same thing, it is all right. Either that people can be criticised or stop criticising yourself. I am pretty sure you won't, though, because you have never even tried to be reasonable.
LOL, in light of the post just below this one I think that is the appropriate response.
Even Alonso knows he's a moaning git.
I do not like Alonso because of his attitude, you don't not like Hamilton because he beat Alonso in his rookie year and Alonso and therefore you have chips on your shoulders.
I like Hamilton, douchebag. I don't like you, because you are a moaning git.
Another viral video from McLaren
6tQCXE7DDuc
It's actually kinda emotional.
Dave Baumann
30-Jun-2010, 15:29
That is quite an incredible warehouse.
Dr Evil
30-Jun-2010, 15:38
That is quite an incredible warehouse.
The cars were nice also.
:)
I wonder how that place is secured against fire and floods and stuff. It is an invaluable collection. I would love to see Jenson or Lewis drive one of those on a track in at least semi-anger.
Lightman
30-Jun-2010, 19:00
I wonder how that place is secured against fire and floods and stuff. It is an invaluable collection. I would love to see Jenson or Lewis drive one of those on a track in at least semi-anger.
I would love to see myself drive one (or more) of these cars on a track :razz:
Even Alonso knows he's a moaning git.
He is, I remember at a post race press conference he said if he was asked any more questions about crashgate he would stop answering questions in english and only in spanish (maybe because he has to attend the conference, but there is no rule saying he has to speak english)
Me i would of said fair enough fernando we'll get an interpreter
now tell me gain how many people have lost their jobs in various f1 teams helping you to cheat ?
tongue_of_colicab
01-Jul-2010, 00:39
I wonder how that place is secured against fire and floods and stuff. It is an invaluable collection. I would love to see Jenson or Lewis drive one of those on a track in at least semi-anger.
I wonder how much of the collection this really is and how much of it really is real. All cars seem to be from a relative modern era and with multiple chassis made for each season this doesnt seem to be all the cars created.
They are going to try a new delta time for when the SC is deployed. Instead of 120% of a representative lap time, they are going to slow down to SC speeds. If the trials are satisfactory, it will be in force at the British GP.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85072
Also, Joe Saward is reporting that Senna is going to be replaced with Sakon Yamamoto over at HRT.
http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2010/07/08/senna-out-yamamoto-in/
tongue_of_colicab
08-Jul-2010, 23:37
If true that will be the end of Senna in F1 I guess. Usually drivers that leave (get kicked out) F1 don't get back in. Senna might still have some advantage left in his name but than again his name and performance havn't been able to land hem any better than a HRT seat this season so I suppose there wasn't much demand for him with even the low ranking existing teams to begin with.
What a pitty - I thought of Bruno as a genuinely nice bloke. I never really judged his speed since the car probably was also a factor...
I don't think his speed is the issue here, it is the money he can/can't bring in.
Yeah, you're right. Just started reading up on it a bit. Hope he gets a seat and that this is just temporary.
Anyway, P1 is over and here are the timings posted for convinience:
Pos Driver Team Time Laps
1. Vettel Red Bull-Renault 1:32.280 22
2. Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes 1:32.614 + 0.334 16
3. Kubica Renault 1:32.725 + 0.445 21
4. Webber Red Bull-Renault 1:32.747 + 0.467 23
5. Sutil Force India-Mercedes 1:32.968 + 0.688 18
6. Rosberg Mercedes 1:33.318 + 1.038 21
7. Hulkenberg Williams-Cosworth 1:33.377 + 1.097 19
8. Button McLaren-Mercedes 1:33.519 + 1.239 20
9. Schumacher Mercedes 1:33.955 + 1.675 18
10. Barrichello Williams-Cosworth 1:34.016 + 1.736 17
11. Buemi Toro Rosso-Ferrari 1:34.132 + 1.852 21
12. Petrov Renault 1:34.365 + 2.085 22
13. Alonso Ferrari 1:34.490 + 2.210 20
14. di Resta Force India-Mercedes 1:34.580 + 2.300 22
15. Kobayashi Sauber-Ferrari 1:34.710 + 2.430 16
16. de la Rosa Sauber-Ferrari 1:34.901 + 2.621 17
17. Massa Ferrari 1:35.037 + 2.757 21
18. Alguersuari Toro Rosso-Ferrari 1:35.318 + 3.038 27
19. Kovalainen Lotus-Cosworth 1:36.747 + 4.467 16
20. Glock Virgin-Cosworth 1:37.330 + 5.050 11
21. di Grassi Virgin-Cosworth 1:37.518 + 5.238 15
22. Chandhok HRT-Cosworth 1:38.735 + 6.455 21
23. Fauzy Lotus-Cosworth 1:39.510 + 7.230 11
24. Yamamoto HRT-Cosworth 1:39.673 + 7.393 27
All Timing Unofficial
RobertR1
09-Jul-2010, 18:32
Looks like Mercedes has finally written off the 2010 season.
A team statement read: "Hispania have decided to give an opportunity to one of its four drivers, Sakon Yamamoto, for this race, the British Grand Prix.
"Bruno Senna will continue to drive in the remaining races."
A team statement read: "Hispania have decided to give an opportunity to one of its four drivers, Sakon Yamamoto, for this race, the British Grand Prix.
"Bruno Senna will continue to drive in the remaining races."
Maybe Senna found some money in his mattress.
Dave Baumann
09-Jul-2010, 22:09
There's specualtion on James Allen's blog that it may be discaplinary related.
Silent_Buddha
10-Jul-2010, 00:48
Looks like Mercedes has finally written off the 2010 season.
If Mercedes has written off 2010, what does that say about Ferrari?
Interesting to see that the only experienced team using Cosworth engines (Williams) is managing to challenge the mercedes engine driven teams. Show's what a difference experience in F1 can make as the rest of the cosworth teams are way back.
Regards,
SB
If Mercedes has written off 2010, what does that say about Ferrari?
Regards,
SB
That Ferrari are trying to catch up? I don't understand.
Anyway, McLaren are having problems with their blown diffuser and is going to wait until Hockenheim to use it so they can make improvements.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85141
Apparently, these blown diffusers are not really using exhaust directly into the diffuser. They used such devices in the 80s but the cars became very sensitive to throttle usage. What I have read is that the low exhaust is about cleaning or containing airflow around the tyres.
If Mercedes has written off 2010, what does that say about Ferrari?
Interesting to see that the only experienced team using Cosworth engines (Williams) is managing to challenge the mercedes engine driven teams. Show's what a difference experience in F1 can make as the rest of the cosworth teams are way back.
Regards,
SB
Well, the Williams is a much more refined car. Even though Mike Gascoyne of Lotus is a very experienced man, he elected to go for a conservative car wrt. materials and construction. What Lotus are doing now, for this race, is making their definitive 2010 car with light-weight components. After this big update they are concentrating on 2011. If they had gone for light-weight components at the start, they would have had much more problems than they have had, I think.
Dave Baumann
10-Jul-2010, 02:44
They used such devices in the 80s but the cars became very sensitive to throttle usage.
Actually, McLaren used these well into the 2000's. The MP4-16 was the last McLaren to race with them, while they also featured on the MP4-18 which never raced. These were all Newey designed McLarens...
Actually, McLaren used these well into the 2000's. The MP4-16 was the last McLaren to race with them, while they also featured on the MP4-18 which never raced. These were all Newey designed McLarens...
Thanks, didn't know they were used so recently.
There's some interesting stuff on the blown diffuser concept here
http://scarbsf1.wordpress.com/2010/06/25/exhaust-driven-diffusers/
Also in the comments, there is mentioned that James Allen's blog had some info on Red Bull managing to keep exhaust pressure up even when lifting off, a special engine map.
I am getting hyped up for this weekend, though. Lots of sport, F1, WC and TdF.
It wasn't really a thriller of a quali, but Button struggled immensely. Vettel and Webber dominated with Alonso an encouraging 3rd. Hamilton wrestled the car and got it in to 4th, a good achievement.
Tomorrow will be interesting if Ferrari or McLaren can have better race pace than Red Bull.
Is there forecast for rain ? If not its most likely Red Bull 1,2 but there is a chance they take each other out, since both drivers have tendency of crashing out. But its a good grid, with Vettel Vs Webber and Alonso Vs Hamilton, there are no love between them.
Is there forecast for rain ? If not its most likely Red Bull 1,2 but there is a chance they take each other out, since both drivers have tendency of crashing out. But its a good grid, with Vettel Vs Webber and Alonso Vs Hamilton, there are no love between them.
Forecast is partial cloudy (according to forumula1.com), but it is Northampton in July so anything can happen.
Vettel ran with the new front wing in quali today and not Webber. Some people are calling favouritism, Christian Horner said he had to take a tough decision. Who thinks that it is Helmut Marko and Didi Mateschitz pulling the strings? The RB6 is so fast, both drivers could have used the old wing and still beaten all.
tongue_of_colicab
11-Jul-2010, 10:26
They had 2 wings. Vettels wing broke and they removed the wing from webbers car and bolted in on vettels. That should say enough right?
Besides RB is talking bull again. Horner said the wing makes such a small difference that it doesnt really matter much but they are running it because newey really wanted to. If it makes such a small difference, than why not leave it on webbers car?
Its obvious that its vettel first.
Silent_Buddha
11-Jul-2010, 10:45
I wonder if when Webber re-signed if he knew he was always going to play second fiddle to Vettel no matter how well he himself does.
Regards,
SB
According to Joe Saward, Webber actually signed the papers the night before (http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2010/07/10/red-bull-gives-you-wings-even-if-they-are-not-quite-the-same/) the Turkey race so who knows. It all smells of poop, though.
chavvdarrr
11-Jul-2010, 14:44
not really sure how Vettel pased Sutil, there was no replay where I watched it.
The feeling was like he simply pushed so hard that Sutil's choice was to get points or let Vettel go ahead.
I'm dissapointed that Button made no real attempt to pass Rosberg
RobertR1
11-Jul-2010, 19:16
Vettel jammed it up on the inside of a slow corner. It was a "win or bin" more.
I'm wondering if Schmacher will retire at the end of this season or live out the contract. I'm thinking if he doesn't have a breakthrough race by the end of the season, he might just give it up.
Rubbish stewarding. How can you give back a position to a car which has retired? In situations like this before, no penalty was awarded. The "under investigation" notice came after Kubica had retired.
And then the SC, basically Alonso was doubly shafted.
Also I thought Alonso was just ahead of Kubica before he was forced out of the track. That's really unfair ruling. I mean I've seen plenty of cars gaining advantages by going off track at the start of the race all the time. I thought the ruling was as long as you're forced to do it to avoid accident you're in the clear. From the onboard replay Alonso could have easily made that corner but Kubica forced him off, what can he do?
Dave Baumann
11-Jul-2010, 22:55
Think precidence. Hamilton and Kimi at Spa is still remembered by a lot of people...
Think precidence. Hamilton and Kimi at Spa is still remembered by a lot of people...
But that wasn't really the same. Hamilton didn't let the situation stabilise before he overtook again. Edit: ah you are referring to the fact that Kimi retired shortly after. You are right, in that way it is similar. It was only 2 laps until the end, though.
Clearly, if Kubica hadn't retired, Alonso would have let him past. He couldn't because Kubica retired and then the SC came out and you cannot serve a penalty under SC conditions.
Edit2: I dug up our discussions from the 2008 thread regarding Hamilton and Räikkönen. It starts here (http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=44900&highlight=2008+formula&page=14#1000). I stand by what I said, stripping Hamilton of the win was supremely harsh, just as penalising Alonso was. Both were unfair.
Lightman
11-Jul-2010, 23:49
This is another case where stewards took too long to make up their minds about incident on a track. If decision would be taken within 1-2 laps there wouldn't be a problem. I really think Alonso and Ferrari are getting most of the bad luck in F1 lately.
But we can't blame only FIA for the situation. If Alonso would give place immediately back to Kubica and overtook a lap or two later, problem wouldn't exist.
On another topic, Webber did drove really well but things aren't looking rosy inside RBR.
Also well done to Hamilton for really good weekend on his side. Button did fine job coming up the field (helped by couple of incidents and retirements).
Rubens in Williams showed his skill and how quickly one team can turn the fortunes.
Kamui well within the points was a nice surprise as well.
More to come in 2 weeks time and I hope Renault will sort out balance problems with new diffuser :)
You are right, Lightman. The stewards have been too slow lately.
Kobayashi is starting to live up to the potential he showed last year. Very nice. Barrichello and Williams should be proud because they are doing well. Rosberg too, Schumi must be smarting.
It was beautiful to see Webber sticking it to Red Bull. Helmut Marko can suck it. Go Webbo!
Colourless
12-Jul-2010, 04:25
Alonso = worst luck ever.
If it werent for the safety car the penalty wouldn't have seemed *that* bad. Stewards too way way too long to do anything.
tongue_of_colicab
12-Jul-2010, 06:40
Thats because they probably switched decisions. The BBC had a interview with Kubica during the race and he said that Alonso was going to let him pass. But than his car broke down and the stewards probably started looking at it again. Basically they blamed Alonso for Kubica's car breaking down.
Did you see Top Gear
Rubens beat the Stig and is the fastest F1 driver ever
Alonso = worst luck ever.
Not worst luck ever, but he's getting close to finnish drivers on bad luck
Lightman
12-Jul-2010, 18:36
Did you see Top Gear
Rubens beat the Stig and is the fastest F1 driver ever
Yeah!
He did beat everyone and still had bad gear change on that lap! Probably loosing another 0.1-0.2s :grin:
Besides I do agree on this occasion with Clarkson that Maserati was the car to buy!
When I win lottery or score big deal then this car (or GT model) will be on my shopping list as a family car :cool:
I wonder if it was because he was the only F1 driver to take the stigs line
Brilliant work by Rubinho. It was very fun.
tongue_of_colicab
12-Jul-2010, 22:42
Did he finally managed to win something :')
Silent_Buddha
13-Jul-2010, 00:38
Yes, even Clarkson noted he finally got to win something. :D
It's a bit of a shame that Rubens was held back during his Ferrari days when he was partnered with Shumacher. I find him a far more likeable character, although I'm sure he can be just as arrogant as any other F1 driver.
Regards,
SB
tongue_of_colicab
13-Jul-2010, 00:44
I don't understand why everybody seems to like him so much. I think he is a crybaby. If he didnt want to be #2 at Ferrari he should have left the team instead of complaining about it. He did the same crybaby stuff at Brawn.
He is a likeable guy. He did leave Ferrari to go to drive that crappy Honda.
Not sure I totally agree on Alonso having the worst luck ever to be honest. Yes the penalty was harsh and the ruling took too long but Ferrari were stupid.
Their argument was that because Kubica forced them off the track the overtake was kosher. Loads of radio chatter about it between Alonso and race engineer but no one just piped up with, look in the rules it doesn't allow for exceptions or mitigating circumstances just give the place back straight away and avoid risking a race wrecking penalty.
There is plenty of precedent on this kind of situation and frankly the penalty was very avoidable. The fact that Kubica then stopped shortly after just made Ferraris decision even sillier.
Personally I think they should use the racing driver representative steward in a more pro-active manner and get them to make the call more or less straight away, but instead of going straight for the big penalty just get them to talk to the teams concerned and essentially "referee" the situation.
So on sunday Mansell would have been on the phone to Ferrari pretty much straight away and said give back the position now or you will have a stop go penalty or similar. That wouldn't necessarily be appropriate for every situation but for things like cutting the corner, either it happened or it didn't, pretty easy to rule on.
At the moment there is too much of a committee ruling on these things, it takes too long to get a consensus. You don't have 6 referees deciding whether someone was offside in football, the same principle should apply in F1.
Of course there will be controversial or even plain "bad" decisions, but hey it's not as if that doesn't happen anyway.
Cheers,
Iain
Lightman
13-Jul-2010, 11:24
lainF have a point!
If there would be a wall instead of a white line then than maneuver would be impossible. But we want overtaking on a track and fair chance of defending position at the same time.
Shame for Alonso because I think he would challenge Hamilton and made the race even more interesting.
Next race should be mighty! RBR, McLaren and Ferrari battling out and then Mercedes, Renault, Force India and Williams in the midfield. Not to forget Kamui appearing here and there :razz:
If Alonso had not schnarffed the start he wouldn't have been in that predicament at all! Yet Ferrari could over the mistake by appointing blame elsewhere.
A good recovery drive from Vettel, even though I absolutely hate his finger waving antics and arrogance and whilst I am a HUGE McLaren fanboy (I installed and support the gym and training IT systems at Woking) I think Mark deserved that win fair and square with a stunning drive following the first corner overtake.
I stand by what I said, stripping Hamilton of the win was supremely harsh, just as penalising Alonso was. Both were unfair.
Ferrari was told three times that Fernando Alonso should have let Robert Kubica through during the British Grand Prix, according to the FIA race director Charlie Whiting.
...
Although the penalty was given nine laps after Alonso passed Kubica, Whiting said Ferrari was advised to let Kubica through immediately, but that the team decided against it.
Source: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85258
You still think it was unfair?
In light of that, it was stupid of Ferrari and Alonso not to let Kubica through immediately. It still is very very harsh to punish Alonso when Kubica has retired. That is the part that is unfair.
but what else could they do ?
but what else could they do ?
Not given the penalty, or done it faster, or fined him, or investigated after the race and then reprimand
Alonso should have given the place back immediately. It was very stupid of him not to do it.
Dave Baumann
13-Jul-2010, 17:24
Not given the penalty, or done it faster, or fined him, or investigated after the race and then reprimand
No, they had to give the penalty otherwise that will set up the precident of "breaking rules and hoping you get away with it because the competitor breaks down". They especially had to apply it given that they had already advised to give the place back. With the penalty applied Ferrari will know next time just to give the place back, rather than ignoring the stewards and continuing to argue with them and hoping they will get away with it later.
No, they had to give the penalty otherwise that will set up the precident of "breaking rules and hoping you get away with it because the competitor breaks down". They especially had to apply it given that they had already advised to give the place back. With the penalty applied Ferrari will know next time just to give the place back, rather than ignoring the stewards and continuing to argue with them and hoping they will get away with it later.
Yeah, you have a point.
There's specualtion on James Allen's blog that it may be discaplinary related.
http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2010/07/13/senna-yamamoto-carabante-and-kolles/
Press in Germany are saying that Senna might have sent an email mistakenly to Colin Kolles, presumably where he said some offensive stuff.
Testing rules tweaked
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85279
Now they cannot run any part on the car which hasn't been raced and it has to be a genuine demonstration run.
"The engineers here said others have done it, why can't we?" he said. "My view, as someone trying to hold FOTA together, was that I felt we could not take that advantage."
Yeah, he can say that when he's leading both championships. If the tables were turned, I don't think he would be that magnanimous.
Dave Baumann
15-Jul-2010, 19:41
Yeah, he can say that when he's leading both championships. If the tables were turned, I don't think he would be that magnanimous.
Given that they don't have the fastest car, they would like to maintain that chamiponship lead and that they are having trouble with the diffuser solution I think that is already highly magnanimous. Given Ferrari did use a "filming day" to test their blown diffuser and had no problems with it for the race I'd say it did provide a definate benefit - especially where a lot of the testing is concentrating on heat build-up at low speeds.
Given that they don't have the fastest car, they would like to maintain that chamiponship lead and that they are having trouble with the diffuser solution I think that is already highly magnanimous. Given Ferrari did use a "filming day" to test their blown diffuser and had no problems with it for the race I'd say it did provide a definate benefit - especially where a lot of the testing is concentrating on heat build-up at low speeds.
Mercedes used it too. I don't think there is a doubt that using a filming day for a test was anything but a benefit. As I said, what he has done is highly magnanimous, but I don't believe he would do that if McLaren weren't leading both championships at the time. It's been cleared up now, though, as has that qualifying fuel stunt McLaren pulled earlier.
Anyway, Tavo Hellmund has been talking to Autosport about the US GP track.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85288
100 feet of elevation change? That sounds great.
Now Sakon Yamamoto will replace Karun Chandhok for the German GP at Hockenheim. That HRT is struggling financially is not a new revelation, but it is a sign of desperation when a team starts juggling drivers like this.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85314
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85322
The tyre situation (super soft and hard) may make the German GP very interesting indeed. Hopefully Alonso and Ferrari can bounce back from the dreadful past weekends. Temper your passion with intelligence, guys!
Villeneuve Racing will attempt to join the F1 starting grid in 2011.
Canadian Villeneuve, 39, added: "The team will be a joint venture with Durango, and based out of Italy.
rendezvous
22-Jul-2010, 12:14
I'm off to Hockenheim now. I hope that it be an exciting weekend. :)
Lightman
22-Jul-2010, 18:52
I'm off to Hockenheim now. I hope that it be an exciting weekend. :)
Take a rain coat :wink:! This alone should add to excitement!
Davros thinks Lightman is one of londonboy's er friends
why else would he find Rendezvous in a rain coat exciting!!!
Incredible qualifying. Alonso 0.002 behind Vettel who is on pole. Holy. Shit.
I cannot wait for tomorrow. Go Alonso! :)
infinity4
25-Jul-2010, 16:59
Alonso said the race was manipulated in Valencia. How ironic is it of what happened today?
Dave Baumann
25-Jul-2010, 17:15
Ferrari have been fined $100K and the matter has been referred to the FIA World Council. I think the reaction from the fans and press will likely colour the outcome of what the council impose...
tongue_of_colicab
25-Jul-2010, 17:58
Personally I don't see what the big deal is. F1 is a team sport. Ferrari did what they thought was best for the team. They didn't lost any points but they did manage to give the driver who had the most points already and is performing the best for the whole season some extra hard needed points for the WDC.
Ofcourse the press is already all over it but thats press. They won't care about the how and why, they much rather make a big deal out of it because that is what earns them money.
I read Joe's blog and he too is acting that way while he always says he is sensible. Well if you are sensible its really easy to see what happend.
Ferrari is behind in the WDC and CC and they lost big points in the last couple of races but the car was/is good. Massa has been slower than Alonso for most of the season. If Ferrari wants to stand any chance in winning the WDC they will need to bet on one driver and given the standings and performance over the season Alonso would be the best bet. As expected (Is there anyone who didn't see this coming after Massa passed Alonso?) Ferrari let Alonso pass.
Now you might not think this is fair or good sportmanship but from Ferrari's POV its the most logical thing to do and the best for the team. Sure Massa is the one losing out but its impossible to keep everyone happy.
infinity4
25-Jul-2010, 18:43
I am sure everyone would have been happy if Massa didn't slow down ;)
The reason why people are getting more angry, is because of the way Ferrari are doing PR post race. Why can't they just admit that what they did is wrong?
AlphaWolf
25-Jul-2010, 20:22
I am sure everyone would have been happy if Massa didn't slow down ;)
The reason why people are getting more angry, is because of the way Ferrari are doing PR post race. Why can't they just admit that what they did is wrong?
Probably because that would be incredibly stupid. Especially considering that it being wrong is pretty debatable.
Silent_Buddha
25-Jul-2010, 20:57
I don't think it's debateable in anyway. Isn't it clearly against FIA rules for a team to dictate that one driver MUST give up his position to another driver on the same team?
Regards,
SB
AlphaWolf
25-Jul-2010, 21:11
I don't think it's debateable in anyway. Isn't it clearly against FIA rules for a team to dictate that one driver MUST give up his position to another driver on the same team?
Regards,
SB
Alonso was faster. Massa chose to make it a statement by letting him by on a straight, probably won't win him any favors with any team.
infinity4
25-Jul-2010, 21:17
No he wasn't. He wasn't fast enough that he couldn't legally overtake him for 49 laps. If Alonso drove a lot better he would have. But he didn't.
AlphaWolf
25-Jul-2010, 21:21
No he wasn't. He wasn't fast enough that he couldn't legally overtake him for 49 laps. If Alonso drove a lot better he would have. But he didn't.
I'm certain Massa could have held him off if he had tried, but he would have been forcing Alonso to slow down. There is no question that Alonso was the faster car.
infinity4
25-Jul-2010, 21:29
Well, I thought it was mixed. There were periods where Massa was pulling away (gap was up to 3 seconds apart), there were times Alonso was closing in, it was quite close together I thought.
Well, it is a relief to see Ferrari taking the fight to Red Bull, but Alonso's victory is not real unfortunately. The decision by Ferrari was a pragmatic one but it was not really a smart one. Alonso had a big chance to overtake Massa the first time they hit traffic and he almost made it.
Meh, it is very bitter-sweet. I hope next race, Alonso can win in a clean way.
One thing Massa should remember is that Räikkönen was told to let him past in China 2008, so that Massa could fight for the championship.
This team order rule is not good, but situations like the one in Austria 2002 was ever worse, I think the rule should be changed to allow team orders but not one as blatant and horrible as the one in Austria. In Austria, Michael Schumacher was very much ahead of everyone in the championship. He didn't need to win that race. Alonso needed to win this one.
Difference this time is Massa was 9 points behind and neither of them are fighting for the championship.
Massa has been setup royally in my opinion. They let him do some fast laps (which Alonso couldn't keep up with) used up his tires then told Alonso to put in some fast laps, surprisingly he was faster....
I guess Santandar are giving Ferrari so much money Alonso has a lot of pull. He mardy tirades at McLaren feel on deaf ears.
just wondered, how many people have lost their jobs and how many thousands of dollars have teams been fined helping Alonso win races?
One interesting thing is how Jean Todt will handle this. He was the one who pulled the trigger in 2002. He is not really impartial in this.
just wondered, how many people have lost their jobs and how many thousands of dollars have teams been fined helping Alonso win races?
Lost jobs? Dunno, Briatore and Symonds but they were the instigators of the crash. Fines? $100,000. If you are talking about the $100m fine, it wasn't for helping Alonso win races. Are you crazy?
Difference this time is Massa was 9 points behind and neither of them are fighting for the championship.
Alonso is now 34 points behind Hamilton and the Ferrari is faster than the McLaren and there are 200 points to fight for in the drivers' championship. Of course he is in the fight, what are you talking about?
Team sports without team orders are kinda ridiculous. They need separate pit and crews for each car. Scheduled pit stops are team order already. Team can easily botched one of their driver stop and get away with it.
Lost jobs? Dunno, Briatore and Symonds but they were the instigators of the crash. Fines? $100,000. If you are talking about the $100m fine, it wasn't for helping Alonso win races. Are you crazy?
Mclaren were fined 60million i beleive over stepneygate, fernado's engineers were receiving inside info on what ferrari's strategy was, how much fuel they had and when they were going to pit ect. Alonso knew quite well this was happening and used this info to try and blackmail ron dennis.
Mclaren were fined 60million i beleive over stepneygate, fernado's engineers were receiving inside info on what ferrari's strategy was, how much fuel they had and when they were going to pit ect. Alonso knew quite well this was happening and used this info to try and blackmail ron dennis.
It was not his fault Stepney gave away that info to Coughlan. Alonso knew they had insider info, he didn't know Stepney had stolen a dossier. Engineers talk to each other across the teams all the time in F1, that is not new.
vBulletin® v3.8.6, Copyright ©2000-2013, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.