Formula 1 - 2010 Season [Archive] - Page 3

Kaotik

12-Mar-2010, 21:31

Dave Baumann

12-Mar-2010, 21:42

Reason why I say it may be dangerous is because the drivers are already having to concentrate incredibly hard on just keeping the car on the road.
I remember a few years ago it was possible to adjust the front wing by the driver and after a major accident (I think it was Michael Andretti) the rules were changed to stop the driver from being distracted from driving.

Placing a knee in a strategic location may not be so distracting but it is something else the driver has to worry about.

Moveable front wings were actually re-introduced last year as part of the "Overtaking Working Group" that caused the massive reconfiguration of the aero last year.

The driver being capable of doing things in the car is part and pacel of the job - take a look at the number of options on the steering wheel's of the top teams to see what they are expected to deal with routinely:

http://cdn.gallery.autosport.com/picture_free.php/dir/2010bah1/image/su_10brn453-2
http://cdn.gallery.autosport.com/picture_free.php/dir/2010bah1/image/su_10brn435-2

tongue_of_colicab

12-Mar-2010, 21:46

Reason why I say it may be dangerous is because the drivers are already having to concentrate incredibly hard on just keeping the car on the road.
I remember a few years ago it was possible to adjust the front wing by the driver and after a major accident (I think it was Michael Andretti) the rules were changed to stop the driver from being distracted from driving.

Placing a knee in a strategic location may not be so distracting but it is something else the driver has to worry about.

I dont think movable body parts have been allowed in the past few decades? Apart from flex wings but that is different. Besides I dont think that rule you talk about ever existed because for example since last year teams are allowed to adjust the front wing flaps 2 times every lap from the cockpit and for the past decade or so steering wheels have also become very complicated with the really skilled drivers adjusting multiple things sometimes every corner. If they really wanted drivers to concentrate on driving alone there are lots and lots of things that take more concentration that placing your legg in a certain position on the straight where you are basically doing nothing.

Bludd

13-Mar-2010, 00:42

The teams that had the movable front wing last year didn't use it. This year it can prove invaluable because you use it to balance tyre wear as fuel wears off. Before they had to enter the pits to adjust front wing angle.

Bludd

13-Mar-2010, 03:59

Steve Sunday (if we translate his name) talks to James Allen
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2010/03/ferrari-boss-on-racing-schumacher-tyre-and-money-problems/

He says that Bridgestone wants money to stay in F1 and then they somehow need to pull back in again, which is going to make them look like a petulant child. He also says another tyre manufacturer cannot enter F1 for next year because it is simply too late for that.

Michelin could come back, but they are angry and feel mistreated by F1. I hope they come back and I hope there's a tyre war again. Control tyres are boring.

13-Mar-2010, 14:12

Vettel took pole, can't wait for tomorrow race. Q was interesting since everyone was empty. The new teams are slow, really slow.

infinity4

13-Mar-2010, 14:40

I don't understand why new teams are even bother taking part in F1 when their lap times are nowhere as good.

Lightman

13-Mar-2010, 14:55

Vettel took pole, can't wait for tomorrow race. Q was interesting since everyone was empty. The new teams are slow, really slow.

I said some time ago that if new teams will be within 3sec. average per lap from the front runners it will be great achievement for them. Clearly they are not there yet ...
To their defence Bahran is second longest track in calendar with a lot of slow speed corners where downforce is crucial. I think on some tracks they will be within 3sec. of the fastest :smile:

Surprise for me was quite poor Maclaren performance! They still lack downforce on their cars when they light. RedBull and Ferrari are clearly in front with Brawn ... errmm I mean Mercedes close behind!

This is true beginning of the arms race now. Who will develop faster and in right direction? Renault is openly admitting that they are underdeveloped compared to others, but they have good plan how to catch up! If past is any guidance, they are good in catching up mid season. I hope it's not too late by then for Robert to mess a bit with the usual suspects :twisted:

Davros

13-Mar-2010, 15:27

Guess what ive just downloaded
SmrNqL6zdlw

WCP F1 2009 Mod for rFactor

I also downloaded the 2009 deluxe mod for f1 challenge, so far Ive got all the seasons from 1994 to 2009

Tahir2

13-Mar-2010, 15:49

Rosberg consistently faster than Schumacher during qualifying seems to have unnerved the man of steel. I don't think he has anything to worry about though, it is the first track.

The redesign of the circuit is not popular with the drivers and watching the onboard camera of Vettel and Button you can see why - those guys are taking a hammering during the mid section.

Tomorrow is going to be interesting - the BBC coverage after the race was cool - so nice to see Mansell, he has gotten less boring with age. :P

tongue_of_colicab

13-Mar-2010, 17:17

Vettel took pole, can't wait for tomorrow race. Q was interesting since everyone was empty. The new teams are slow, really slow.

No they are not. They barely had any testing and atleast the lotus and virgin have been put together in very little time. They are only 3 to 4 seconds slower than p1 at the moment, which means only 2 to 3 secs slower than the mclaren. Not bad if you compare the time and resources they have compared to a team like mclaren which basically already had everything in place (including a base care to design their current car on) while the new teams had nothing. In a couple of races time they probably can come closer as their will be a lot to improve on set up and aero.

Also 3 seconds isnt really that much if you look into F1 history.

Dr Evil

13-Mar-2010, 17:37

No they are not. They barely had any testing and atleast the lotus and virgin have been put together in very little time. They are only 3 to 4 seconds slower than p1 at the moment, which means only 2 to 3 secs slower than the mclaren. Not bad if you compare the time and resources they have compared to a team like mclaren which basically already had everything in place (including a base care to design their current car on) while the new teams had nothing. In a couple of races time they probably can come closer as their will be a lot to improve on set up and aero.

Also 3 seconds isnt really that much if you look into F1 history.

Hamilton's fastest time during qualifying was 5 seconds faster than Timo Glock's time (fastest driver of the new teams). Vettel was almost a second more quicker. HRT-cosworth is barely faster than a GP2 car... Let's hope they'll improve soon.

Bludd

13-Mar-2010, 17:57

Annoying that the on-screen graphics in the world feed have gone backwards. Last year we got a shuffling tower of times at the left side of the screen when people went over the line in qualifying, now we get that weird offset thing at the bottom and we only get it occasionally.

Brilliant pole by Vettel, Massa out-qualified my hero Alonso, but let's wait for the race.

The McLarens are over 1 second off the front running pace. I think either their set-up has gone to crap or their car has some serious deficiencies. I think it's more likely the former and I would be very surprised if it's the latter and it would be a disaster.

Tahir2

13-Mar-2010, 19:31

It is early days with the new teams but quite honestly whatever the FIA were originally thinking has backfired to an extent. The new teams at the moment are like chicanes and will add a new dimension to the racing - one that most fans will not appreciate.

However well saying all that, well done to the teams that made it and extra special well done to Karun Chandhok who did his first laps in qualifying and not only managed to stay on track but also was only 3 tenths behind his team mate.

I hope there is a little more stability in Formula One over the next few years - it seems to me that Max Mosley was on a crash course to breaking Formula One for good and he almost succeeded.

Bludd

13-Mar-2010, 19:44

They are looking to introduce the 107% rule. It can come this year if all teams agree to it, so it is most probably coming next year. I think the new teams need to be given some time. They are far back, but they will also make the biggest strides forward in lap time.

I can't wait for the race tomorrow.

nutball

13-Mar-2010, 19:53

It is early days with the new teams but quite honestly whatever the FIA were originally thinking has backfired to an extent. The new teams at the moment are like chicanes and will add a new dimension to the racing - one that most fans will not appreciate.

Problem with this line of argument is that it's like listening to Man U, Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool fans saying that the other teams in the Premier League just get in the way of their teams inevitable march to the title.

Well, how interesting would the Premier League be with just those four teams?

Kaotik

13-Mar-2010, 19:57

Bludd

13-Mar-2010, 20:24

It's somewhat different case, the lesser teams can still have "fair games" and score points against each other, while in F1 only the first 8 (or did they change that this season?) score points
10 first.

25-18-15-12-10-8-6-4-2-1

tongue_of_colicab

13-Mar-2010, 20:37

First 10 this year I believe. Yes in the football case the lesser teams can score points against each other but it doesnt change the fact its still on a totally different level in terms of quality much like in F1 now.

I dont understand people who complain about the speed of the new teams. Its like their memory doesnt go back more than 5 minutes and they forgot how things were the past 60 years.

For example last year in the Malysian GP the fastest lap time was 1.36.6 (Brawn) and the slowest 1.39.5 (FI). Almost and 3 second difference! And this is from a team that was already on the grid for a long long time. Now people are going totally mad over 5 seconds on a track that is very long. So maybe on a average track it would be 4 seconds or something. Really, explain to me how nobody complains over a 3 second difference but complains over 4 seconds? Like anybody is going to notice that 1 second difference on the track. Get real.

And that is just from last year. If we look at the 2006 bahrein GP we got Schumacher with the fastest quali time of 1.31.4 and Ide and his super aguri with the slowest time of 1.40.3. If I remember right, I never heard anybody saying that SA should get off the track for being 9 seconds slower! That is almost as much as HSR and they never even drivin the car untill today while SA had a car from Honda!

The cars from the new teams can easily improve. They lack in set up and aero so if they start working those things out over the next few races I'm sure they are capable of getting acceptable laptimes. Certainly compared with the backmarkers we used to have.

They are looking to introduce the 107% rule. It can come this year if all teams agree to it, so it is most probably coming next year. I think the new teams need to be given some time. They are far back, but they will also make the biggest strides forward in lap time.

I can't wait for the race tomorrow.

That 107% rule is stupid. The slow cars will still be on the grid during the most dangerous moment, Q1, when everybody wants to go fast. After that they will drop out anyway because they are not fast enough and it doesnt matter during the race because they are at the back of the pack anyway and speed are much lower too because everybody is carrying so much fuel. As for speed during the race, well just look up the laptimes from the past decade and being 3+ seconds off the pace really isnt uncommon. It's only from very recent times that the whole field was relatively close to each other.

Tahir2

13-Mar-2010, 21:58

Ahem to prove your point you are using race times from best to worst.

Let us play your game for this years qualifying by picking the most extreme numbers:

1:53.883 Sebestian Vettel Q2 (Fastest)
2.04.904 Karun Chandokh Q1 (Slowest)

About 11 seconds.

Let's wait until tomorrow until we start comparing race times and see how the race evolves for the new teams.

It is a wonder if the decision not to allow the more experienced tenders enter F1 this year was a mistake or not - hang on, yes it was a mistake as we have already lost one team - US F1.

Anyway - much respect to the new teams, I have found new appreciation for that ever lovable Minardi team.

tongue_of_colicab

13-Mar-2010, 22:09

Taking HSR as a example is rather dumb given today was the first time they started up their car. It was a shake down, it didnt had anything to do with even trying to get in a decent time. All they wanted to do is drive a few laps. If you look at the teams that could do some testing its not nearly as dramatic.

Tahir2

13-Mar-2010, 22:24

Thanks for proving my point - shakedown during qualifying. Excellent. All that talk about safety was hogwash.
Something flies off the car tomorrow because it wasn't ready - the FIA can take the blame - not HRT.

Dr Evil

13-Mar-2010, 22:27

Problem with this line of argument is that it's like listening to Man U, Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool fans saying that the other teams in the Premier League just get in the way of their teams inevitable march to the title.

Well, how interesting would the Premier League be with just those four teams?

More like Manu fans saying that all the other teams are just in the way of their inevitable title! :twisted:
But seriously in Football a team in the relegation zone can score points against the top four and every season they usually do. How many times does an bottom two team beat Ferrari or Red Bull without mechanical problems?

I dont understand people who complain about the speed of the new teams. Its like their memory doesnt go back more than 5 minutes and they forgot how things were the past 60 years.

For example last year in the Malysian GP the fastest lap time was 1.36.6 (Brawn) and the slowest 1.39.5 (FI). Almost and 3 second difference! And this is from a team that was already on the grid for a long long time. Now people are going totally mad over 5 seconds on a track that is very long. So maybe on a average track it would be 4 seconds or something. Really, explain to me how nobody complains over a 3 second difference but complains over 4 seconds? Like anybody is going to notice that 1 second difference on the track. Get real.

And that is just from last year. If we look at the 2006 bahrein GP we got Schumacher with the fastest quali time of 1.31.4 and Ide and his super aguri with the slowest time of 1.40.3. If I remember right, I never heard anybody saying that SA should get off the track for being 9 seconds slower! That is almost as much as HSR and they never even drivin the car untill today while SA had a car from Honda!

LOL at those comparisons... First of all it's really not the same to compare race lap times to qualifying. The force India cars were racing at the back of the herd fighting constantly for positions. In the qualifying the difference was little more than 2 seconds. The HRT-Cosworth was 10 (TEN) seconds slower. The fastest new team driver was SIX seconds slower than Vettel. In Formula 1, 1 second is a long time, 5 seconds is a decade and 10 seconds is an eternity. HTR's time was much closer to a GP2 car time. Bruno Senna probably thought he was still driving a GP2 car...

Super Aguri's 2006 car was based on an old Arrows 2002 car and the car had a total of 10 laps of pre-season testing. Also Yuji Ide, who was the slower Aguri driver by far, got his super licence cancelled due to his inexperience/crashing...They got the old Honda car for the next season.
I remember lot's of talk about the poor performance of Super Aguri, luckily they were able to pick up their pace a little bit. Let's hope these new teams will do the same.

Bludd

14-Mar-2010, 00:11

The slow cars will still be on the grid during the most dangerous moment, Q1, when everybody wants to go fast.
How do you figure? Drivers don't push on all the laps in qualifying. On an out-lap, they make room in-front of themselves so they can have a clean run. They push at the end of the out-lap so that the hot lap is started at maximum velocity. They also warm their tyres and brakes during the out-lap. Then they do their hot lap(s), cars not on hot laps have to jump out of the way to avoid being penalised, and then wind down on the in-lap.

In the race, they start with cold tyres, cold brakes and heavy with fuel. They are also much more together. The first lap is the most dangerous part of a race. Then you have a front-runner having to lap a back-marker. This can be dangerous if either the back-marker or the front-runner is battling for position.

The 107% rule is not stupid, because the most dangerous time in F1 is during a race, when 20+ cars are on the track at the same time, fighting it out.

tongue_of_colicab

14-Mar-2010, 00:59

LOL at those comparisons... First of all it's really not the same to compare race lap times to qualifying. The force India cars were racing at the back of the herd fighting constantly for positions. In the qualifying the difference was little more than 2 seconds. The HRT-Cosworth was 10 (TEN) seconds slower. The fastest new team driver was SIX seconds slower than Vettel. In Formula 1, 1 second is a long time, 5 seconds is a decade and 10 seconds is an eternity. HTR's time was much closer to a GP2 car time. Bruno Senna probably thought he was still driving a GP2 car...

Super Aguri's 2006 car was based on an old Arrows 2002 car and the car had a total of 10 laps of pre-season testing. Also Yuji Ide, who was the slower Aguri driver by far, got his super licence cancelled due to his inexperience/crashing...They got the old Honda car for the next season.
I remember lot's of talk about the poor performance of Super Aguri, luckily they were able to pick up their pace a little bit. Let's hope these new teams will do the same.

Yes and thats why I'm talking about 2006 quali times. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Bahrain_Grand_Prix#Qualifying_results

Also its not fair to complain about HTR. The car is build by the same company that does the GP2 cars and do you really believe that with over 200bhp more and way more downforce the HTR really isnt capable of more than it showed in todays quali? Your crazy if you expected them to do a decent lap time when they never drove the car before.

Give the new teams some time. It is easy to compare to how it used to be but than there was still in season testing and teams had time to figure their cars out. Now the new teams had 1 month to do so. Not really suprising to see them go much slower. Just wait till they figure their cars out. If you look at recent years backmarker teams have always easily been 3 seconds off the pace.

If we look at a other long circuit like Spa in 2005 the Jordan was actually more off the pace than the new teams (excluding HRT because today was their shakedown). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Belgian_Grand_Prix#Qualifying

So really saying the new teams are dead slow, dangerous etc is not being in line with the reality of how F1 has been for a long time just because last season things happend to be relative close.

tongue_of_colicab

14-Mar-2010, 01:09

How do you figure? Drivers don't push on all the laps in qualifying. On an out-lap, they make room in-front of themselves so they can have a clean run. They push at the end of the out-lap so that the hot lap is started at maximum velocity. They also warm their tyres and brakes during the out-lap. Then they do their hot lap(s), cars not on hot laps have to jump out of the way to avoid being penalised, and then wind down on the in-lap.

In the race, they start with cold tyres, cold brakes and heavy with fuel. They are also much more together. The first lap is the most dangerous part of a race. Then you have a front-runner having to lap a back-marker. This can be dangerous if either the back-marker or the front-runner is battling for position.

The 107% rule is not stupid, because the most dangerous time in F1 is during a race, when 20+ cars are on the track at the same time, fighting it out.

In quali unless you are on a hot lap you have to get out of the way of the fast cars. This shouldnt be a problem as drivers should be informed if they need to get out of the way.

Race isnt a problem either. The slow teams start on the back anyway so the difference in speed is not going to have any influence on the faster cars. Some goes for overtaking. That is why we have blue flags. It doesnt matter if the backmarkers are fighting or not, blue flag means get out of the way. Really, in that case it doesnt matter if your care is 3 or 5 seconds off the pace of the leader.

The rule is stupid. Its not like being within the 107% rule suddenly makes you 100% safe while being 108% makes you dangerous. Just look at le mans. There you also have different cars with a far larger difference in speed running safely at the same time.

Bludd

14-Mar-2010, 02:51

The rule is stupid. Its not like being within the 107% rule suddenly makes you 100% safe while being 108% makes you dangerous. Just look at le mans. There you also have different cars with a far larger difference in speed running safely at the same time.

It's just a point where they put the limit. It could be 108% or 110% but the limit is somewhere. Anyway, you are contradicting yourself. You said qualifying 1 was the most dangerous time and then you said neither qualifying nor the race is dangerous. Make up your mind.

Anyway, only HRT was outside 107% of the pole lap today and they were just 2-3 seconds off. HRT will get there when they get to grips with the car.

Tahir2

14-Mar-2010, 14:18

Ominous result - Fernando wins, Ferrari 1 and 2.

I think McLaren and Lewis will be back very strong next race... and I feel sorry for Vettel - if only a little bit.

Dr Evil

14-Mar-2010, 17:24

The race was quite boring. Kubica made some nice overtakes, but other than not much going on, I almost fell asleep. Other than the start and on some great tracks like Spa, usually the pitstops have been the only place, where something exciting has happened, but that's gone now too. Everybody weighing pretty much the same all the time means even less overtaking and less excitement during the pit stop period. No more fast laps before a pit stop against a car that just pitted, or trying to overtake heavier cars after the stop. Hamilton was also complaining about the difficulties of following a car in fast corners. Well I quess there's still the start and qualifying...

Lotus and Virgin had ok race pace. Pity for Vettel having problems and I would have liked to see whether Alonso could have gotten something going on against him.

wishiknew

14-Mar-2010, 18:36

Well that was a wonderful race. There must have been a reason why refueling was reintroduced in 1994.

My wild guess is the lap time difference gained and lost by targeting different setups for 2010 cars as the fuel lightens for every one is probably smaller than any 2009 car at the begining vs end of one stint.

Maybe teams will start on soft and only do 1 pitstop with hard for the rest of the way. Now that would be exciting.

tongue_of_colicab

14-Mar-2010, 18:44

Refueling or not is not the reason why races are boring. Its because the cars aerodynamics prevent overtaking. Refueling just makes things even more fake, overtaking only happens when cars dont move. IMO overtaking should happen on the track.

Kaotik

14-Mar-2010, 18:59

Dr Evil

14-Mar-2010, 18:59

overtaking only happens when cars dont move. IMO overtaking should happen on the track.

Of course, but that has been rare for a long time and now the rest is gone too. BTW. why did they made the front tires narrower? Sounds really stupid to me, also the new tire rule where you have to start the race with the tires you used in Q3 sucks too.

wishiknew

14-Mar-2010, 19:18

I like to reducing the minimum weight back to last year or maybe more. Yea Kers back too. Then I like to see refueling. Remember something about Ferrari started using super fuel which was lighter or more condense long ago and assuming every team does this now, well if it was real then I like the old stuff back. Anything to induce weight/speed difference as how else are the cars suppose to pass.

The homologated rule of not allowing certain car pieces being updated in season gone just for the sake of innovation as you can at least the technical race off the track.

tongue_of_colicab

14-Mar-2010, 20:00

It's funny, tbh, there's only ONE rule change that has made OCing easier, every single one meant to make it easier made it harder in the end.
The working one was, of course, KERS, which no-one uses anymore due teams agreement

That only worked because some teams had it. If every team had it the effect would be gone because they all would use it at the same time.

Of course, but that has been rare for a long time and now the rest is gone too. BTW. why did they made the front tires narrower? Sounds really stupid to me, also the new tire rule where you have to start the race with the tires you used in Q3 sucks too.

Last year the front tires had too much grip which made the back slide more. So now the made the tires narrower to make the cars more equally balanced in weight again.

as how else are the cars suppose to pass.

You can change weight etc as much as you want but if aerodynamics produce so much turbilent air that even a couple of hundred meters behind a car you already notice a loss in downforce that is not going to work.

There is only 1 way to make overtaking happen and that is to reduce the aerodynamic influance. Just look at the history and all current formula's that have lots of overtaking. All of them have cars have ''basic'' aero or aero designed to still make overtaking possible.

Kaotik

14-Mar-2010, 20:44

That only worked because some teams had it. If every team had it the effect would be gone because they all would use it at the same time.

Not necessarily, assuming the track has few good overtaking points, there would be choices to make on which one to use them at, how long you'd push your button at once etc

Tahir2

14-Mar-2010, 20:59

Lotus were very impressive for their first race. Well done to them.

wishiknew

14-Mar-2010, 21:26

But back in those simple days, they had bigger rear wing and was tilted toward slipstream than spoiling wake. If you can't reduce turbulence, then go the opposite way.

Actually I like indycar's overtake button rather than just 7seconds a lap kers alone.

Yea Lotus did good. The last team to get confirmation does the best while the first team to state wanting entry isn't even here.

wishiknew

14-Mar-2010, 22:20

I forgot the ground effects when cars use to spark instead of having wood under them and wide tires that even punch holes thru the air.

MfA

14-Mar-2010, 22:30

There is only 1 way to make overtaking happen and that is to reduce the aerodynamic influance.
Not necessarily, they could allow real-time adjustable aerodynamics and enforce downforce limits in the ECU (ie. go over the limits and the engine cuts back).

tongue_of_colicab

14-Mar-2010, 22:53

Not necessarily, they could allow real-time adjustable aerodynamics and enforce downforce limits in the ECU (ie. go over the limits and the engine cuts back).

Seems like a rather complicated solution with lots of work arounds to still try and cause as much turbulance as you can while if you just force rules that allow for the ''simple'' aero of the old cars than you solve like 3 problems at once. You solve the no overtaking. You solve the enormous spending in de aero department. You solve having to spend a ton of cash on solutions like adjustable aerodynamics.

I dont see why you would want to go the route of really complicated solutions. They are just bound to cause more problems while we got a solution we know works because it worked in the past in F1 and works in other formulas at this moment.

I dont like the idea of push to pass. Its real racing, not mariokart with mushrooms.

Bludd

14-Mar-2010, 23:16

Ah, the return of Adrian Newey's Brittle Innovations. The Red Bull has this tightly packaged exhaust system pumping air out the back of the gearbox. It broke. Bad luck for Vettel.

My hero Alonso, well what can you say? TOMA!!!

15-Mar-2010, 00:13

That overtaking team that the F1 created, have really screwed up. With all the rules changes I expected those cars to be tailing each other, but they can't because, heat and turbulence. They haven't manage to change anything.

Congrats to Alonso and Ferrari. Massa did good but Alonso got the better start. Hamilton did a good job too. Too bad for Vettel but he hung in there. Nico and Michael did well too but the Mercedes don’t have the pace to keep up with Ferrari on this track. Button and Webber need to up their game. But it's early and the top four teams are similar in speed so I am guessing this season will become more interesting than this race.

Bludd

15-Mar-2010, 00:34

That overtaking team that the F1 created, have really screwed up. With all the rules changes I expected those cars to be tailing each other, but they can't because, heat and turbulence. They haven't manage to change anything.
It's mostly the double diffusers. They are banned for next year so maybe we can judge the overtaking working group then.

I am so happy for Mike Gascoyne and Lotus. The newest team, least time, most successful this race. They are going to make great strides. Congrats guys!

MfA

15-Mar-2010, 00:56

Seems like a rather complicated solution with lots of work arounds to still try and cause as much turbulance as you can
If their aerodynamics can compensate and still get to the limit all you would be doing by creating turbulence is slowing yourself down.

wishiknew

15-Mar-2010, 01:26

Did we really have better racing last year with single diffuser 7 group for the first couple of races?

And besides the type of downforce produced by diffusers is less susceptible to turbulence generated by following a car. That kinda counts as reducing dependance on aero generated downforce in a weird sort of way. Who's to say we won't find out next year that double diffusers had actually produced better closer racing.

I can understand Mclaren not being out in front as they spent a lot of time fixing the 2009 car but Brawn was one of the first to switch focus to 2010.

Bludd

15-Mar-2010, 02:14

Bludd

15-Mar-2010, 02:49

Apparently, Vettel's car had a spark plug problem, which was why he lost the race.

tongue_of_colicab

15-Mar-2010, 09:30

Not sure about that. During the race they said that one of the exhausts broke.

DJ12

15-Mar-2010, 09:55

Hamilton said he (Vettel) wasn't running on all 8 cylinders after the race, so while they may have thought it was the exhaust during the race it actually was a spark plug problem.

Bludd

15-Mar-2010, 11:07

Apparently, Vettel's car had a spark plug problem, which was why he lost the race.
It has been confirmed

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/82153

Last year Red Bull had problems with the installation of the Renault engine in Vettel's car, but at those occasions, the engine actually broke.

tongue_of_colicab

15-Mar-2010, 19:31

Strange the team didnt know that. I dont know exactly what they can see from engine sensors but you'd think that failing cylinders is rather high on the ''want to see'' list.

I wonder who's fault the engine problems are. Renault didnt had much last year if I remember right. Maybe RBR is running it very tight when it comes to things like cooling? Maybe being very close or over the limit of what Renault designed their engine for.

Bludd

15-Mar-2010, 19:50

Red Bull have Renault engineers in their team. Fabrice Lom is the main Renault guy at Red Bull.

Tahir2

18-Mar-2010, 17:47

“None of the facts in the last 30 years support the theory that grippy tyres and low downforce promote overtaking. If reducing downforce was the answer, then 1983 would have shown it, since we lost 80% of the aero efficiency in the 1983 rules, ” he says. “But there was no more overtaking than in 1982.
“Here’s the proof – if downforce prevented overtaking, historically the races with the fewest overtaking manoeuvres would have been the wet races, where maximum downforce settings are used… Why anybody still thinks a reduction in downforce is the solution when faced with the facts has been a consistent mystery and frustration to me.
“Too much difference in grip between on and off line is a major factor, caused by sticky tyres (lots of mechanical grip)
“Braking distances into slow corners are far too short, caused by sticky tyres (too much mechanical grip)."

Read the rest at J.A on F1 (http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2010/03/getting-rid-of-aero-in-f1-the-counterargument/)

Bludd

18-Mar-2010, 18:56

Very interesting, thanks Tahir.

Kaotik

18-Mar-2010, 19:34

“Here’s the proof – if downforce prevented overtaking, historically the races with the fewest overtaking manoeuvres would have been the wet races, where maximum downforce settings are used… Why anybody still thinks a reduction in downforce is the solution when faced with the facts has been a consistent mystery and frustration to me.

That's probable the most ridicilous "proof" I've ever read, the most overtakes in rain happen because the drivers make exponentially more mistakes in rain compared to dry, not because of the extra downforce

tongue_of_colicab

18-Mar-2010, 23:04

I wonder how much of it is true anyway. Yes maybe downforce itself doesnt prevent overtaking but the way downforce is generated certainly has a influence on overtaking I think.

Kaotik

19-Mar-2010, 00:15

We need to get back the slipstream effect, so you can actually drive close to the one in your front and get extra speed from slipstreaming > overtake

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5h-HTv9d4c

Tahir2

19-Mar-2010, 00:32

Track design plays an important role in overtaking. Most tracks do not have the straights followed by a hairpin anymore.

I seem to recall a decent amount of overtaking last year, in one race Button came from 10th to 5th mostly through overtaking.

Tahir2

19-Mar-2010, 01:01

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzoMd8OnDR0&feature=related

For the Kimi fans.

Bludd

19-Mar-2010, 01:12

I think the 2010 regs need a bit of time. Changing stuff after 1 race is just a knee-jerk reaction.

I also think that the double diffuser being removed for 2011 should have happened this year.

Tyres? I want a tyre war again. If that can't happen, put them on hard tyres.

Bludd

19-Mar-2010, 12:02

Sneaky loophole regarding rear diffuser and starter motor closed by the FIA

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/82234

DJ12

19-Mar-2010, 13:08

Bludd

21-Mar-2010, 13:56

Ayrton Senna would be 50 today and Autosport has his life in pictures up here: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/82279

RobertR1

22-Mar-2010, 07:23

Any interviews with Peter Windsor since they folded? I'd love to hear what went down.

Bludd

22-Mar-2010, 12:59

Any interviews with Peter Windsor since they folded? I'd love to hear what went down.
He's been holding a low profile. I don't think he's been doing his schtick over at Speed TV's F1 coverage.

Billy Idol

24-Mar-2010, 11:07

Hey cool! There is a Formula 1 thread!!
Great!

Regarding "more overtaking". I just thought that you get more overtaking when it rains.
And then concluding, I think that the answer is very easy. If you want more overtaking, make it either rain all the time (;-)) or just use the worst tires with the lowest grip available...because the only difference when it rain is, that the tires are bad! No grip, means a lot of different perfects routes and driving lines on the same track, and not just one ideal!

What do you guys think. Reducing downforce is just BS, if you ask me...drastically reduce the grip of the tires and be happy!

GMâ„¢

25-Mar-2010, 01:15

They should add more downforce, stickier tyres and reintroduce KERS or some kind of limited assist to give the drivers more confidence in the car.

and IMHO the only thing stopping overtaking are the rearends of the cars in front. If you remove the over complicated diffusers and rearwing elements, etc, etc the airflow hitting the car behind is 'cleaner' and will interfere less with the aerodynamics of the following car. Regardless of all the rule changes in the last decade or so you always have an approx 1 second gap between cars due to this aerodymanic feature. Look back at Spa from last season for a perfect example. Fisi on his Force India Mercedes was substantially quicker than Kimi, but once within the 1 second problem area behind the Ferrari he actually lost speed! Not even KERS could help at that point!.. and this is at Spa which has some amazingly long straight sections.

Its very sad that aerodynmamics are so critical, because it is a very interesting element to the formula and it wouldnt be the same if the FIA decided to start banning part of it.

Davros

25-Mar-2010, 11:50

just get rid of downforce alltogether
http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/2849669051.jpg (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)

Bludd

25-Mar-2010, 13:27

Not if you want F1 to be the fastest motorsport in the world. The only way for F1 cars to go so quickly in the corners is aerodynamics and you can't just suddenly forget that aerodynamics exists.

MfA

25-Mar-2010, 13:56

I still say active aero using suspension measurements to enforce downforce limits would be ideal. Doesn't necessarily mean adaptive wings, could simply be done with ride height as well. It won't stop innovations in aero, still want to minimize drag, and allows followers an even playing field.

Looking around Mosley already considered fixed downforce limits (at fastest speeds) in the past, so it's not a big stretch.

WhiningKhan

25-Mar-2010, 13:57

just get rid of downforce alltogether

And all friction, too. It's boring when the cars go where the drivers want them to. Freely spinning wheels FTW.

Erinyes

25-Mar-2010, 18:48

One simple reason why the cars do not overtake as much is that they are a lot closer in terms of performance. Nowadays we see gaps in terms of tents of seconds at max whereas in the early 2000's we saw gaps of seconds between cars. Obviously to a certain extent the aerodynamics of the cars have created more turbulence since then. But also we now have no engine development, all engines are pretty much equal. The ECU is standard, tyres are standard. Gearboxes are also pretty much standard as we've sort of reached the limit of shift times(ie we're in the range of 10 m/s or lower i think). And with the need of 8 engines to last the whole season, th gearbox to last five races teams arent going to push like hell anyway. All this has led to much less differentiation these days. In the earlier days we would see massive differences in time, positions 1-10 would have a gap of 2 or more seconds. Now is it even 1 second?

With regards to the current season, with low fuel qualifying you have the cars in the order of fastest to slowest. How is the slower car supposed to overtake the faster car then? And if a faster car is stuck behind a slower car and is faster only by one or two tenths(heck even if hes half a second faster) how can he overtake unless the guy in front makes a mistake?

Kaotik

25-Mar-2010, 19:02

Tahir2

25-Mar-2010, 19:29

Close racing can still lead to overtaking - look at Indycar.

DJ12

25-Mar-2010, 21:18

I said it once before, and I'll say it again. We need to get rid of those double-diffusors and what not messing with the airflow behind the car. All the drivers complain it's impossible to drive close to next driver to gain speed due the messed up airflows.
We need slipstreaming back, that's all it would really take to get overtaking back to F1.

Wasn't it webber or vettel that said the worst car to follow at the start of last season was the renault that didn't have a double diffuser?

The answer is to start allowing things they've outlawed. The boffins can get far more out of aero package without working the air anywhere near as much as they do now.

RobertR1

25-Mar-2010, 21:46

Close racing can still lead to overtaking - look at Indycar.

That's an Oval/drafting benefit. On road courses they have plenty of issues also. Still a bit better than F1.

One of the biggest issues in F1 are the braking zones. They're too narrow.

A rough example of a braking zone:
|-----------------------------------------| < Something like a C6R
|-------------| < f1 braking area

Now in the F1 braking area you're still having to scrub off a lot of speed but doing so in a very short distance due to the awesome brakes. However, your margin for trial is greatly reduced because you can't afford to brake late. The braking area is so condensed by the powerful brakes that you literally have to brake at the same spot each time. Trying to deepen your braking will have you running wide as you've carried too much speed into the corner to have any chance of holding the line.

Ofcourse the downforce adds to the braking problems but they can certainly work on the braking perfromance without making downforce cuts. Lengthening the braking zones means the drivers are willing to risk a bit more late braking to get by. This would also give people a chance to alter their setups. You might be have a car that's great on the brakes but has a mid corner push or poor turn in vs a car with great corner speed but suffers from longer braking distance. Right now, if that's the case, the car behind still has no chance because the car lenght of real estate he needs to make the pass is simply too much for the brake zones on most corners.

For closely competitive cars with capable drivers, passing eachother will always be an issue. However, when a car behind is clearly faster and still can't pass on the brakes, it's needs to be addressed.

btw, I don't want to see speeds in F1 reduced. I love F1 for it's technical marvel but you can increase things in one area while taking away from another. Not only do you preserve the speed but you make the show better.

25-Mar-2010, 23:46

We don't need for the rules to create the actual overtaking, We just need for the car to tail each other so they can race. Right now those F1 cars can't even tail because they'll overheat or hit turbulence. So the rules need to address those problems. It sucks when you hear those radio, telling drivers that they are too close to the car in front and should back off a bit because their car is going to overheat.

Anyway Aus GP Practice Session is starting soon, can't wait. :)

Kaotik

26-Mar-2010, 00:58

Wasn't it webber or vettel that said the worst car to follow at the start of last season was the renault that didn't have a double diffuser?

The answer is to start allowing things they've outlawed. The boffins can get far more out of aero package without working the air anywhere near as much as they do now.

Perhaps diffuser helps then, but regardless the airflow behind cards is messed up and drivers have said it for years that it's next to impossible to slipstream behind the other to gain speed.
Heck, last time I remember seeing "real slipstreaming" was in Indianapolis GP when both cars of the team were on track at the same time in qualifying, giving huge speed boosts for the team mate on the long oval part

Silent_Buddha

26-Mar-2010, 09:34

The FIA should take a look at Indycar racing. While I don't like it at all, if you watch any race there is always overtaking and cars following closely behind each other without dramatic lose of grip like F1 suffers.

I am no aerodynamic expert but this is surely down to Indycars using a ground effect method to generate most of the downforce outlawed in F1 in the knee jerk response to Sennas untimely death.

Best idea I've heard yet in this thread. At the same time reduce somewhat the max downforce able to be contributed by the car's aero (fins, etc.).

You'd still get significant downforce through ground effects, and at the same time reduce both the turbulence generated by topside aero as well as the reliance on said aero.

Of course, there's always a downside to such things. Losing the ground effect suddenly can be quite catastrophic.

One of the biggest things hindering overtaking in F1 is losing much of your downforce as you get caught in the turbulence generated by the car in front of you.

Regards,
SB

Erinyes

26-Mar-2010, 11:35

That's an Oval/drafting benefit. On road courses they have plenty of issues also. Still a bit better than F1.

One of the biggest issues in F1 are the braking zones. They're too narrow.

A rough example of a braking zone:
|-----------------------------------------| < Something like a C6R
|-------------| < f1 braking area

Now in the F1 braking area you're still having to scrub off a lot of speed but doing so in a very short distance due to the awesome brakes. However, your margin for trial is greatly reduced because you can't afford to brake late. The braking area is so condensed by the powerful brakes that you literally have to brake at the same spot each time. Trying to deepen your braking will have you running wide as you've carried too much speed into the corner to have any chance of holding the line.

Ofcourse the downforce adds to the braking problems but they can certainly work on the braking perfromance without making downforce cuts. Lengthening the braking zones means the drivers are willing to risk a bit more late braking to get by. This would also give people a chance to alter their setups. You might be have a car that's great on the brakes but has a mid corner push or poor turn in vs a car with great corner speed but suffers from longer braking distance. Right now, if that's the case, the car behind still has no chance because the car lenght of real estate he needs to make the pass is simply too much for the brake zones on most corners.

For closely competitive cars with capable drivers, passing eachother will always be an issue. However, when a car behind is clearly faster and still can't pass on the brakes, it's needs to be addressed.

btw, I don't want to see speeds in F1 reduced. I love F1 for it's technical marvel but you can increase things in one area while taking away from another. Not only do you preserve the speed but you make the show better.

How about we ban carbon brakes and increase engine power :grin:

A more realistic solution i guess is ban carbon brakes and make the tyres wider and/or more grippy?

infinity4

26-Mar-2010, 12:33

The solution is simple. Spray 50t of water onto tracks, and we will see lots of errors and overtakes.

No doubt Ferrari will complain since they do shit whenever there is a wet race.

tongue_of_colicab

26-Mar-2010, 14:56

Best idea I've heard yet in this thread. At the same time reduce somewhat the max downforce able to be contributed by the car's aero (fins, etc.).

You'd still get significant downforce through ground effects, and at the same time reduce both the turbulence generated by topside aero as well as the reliance on said aero.

Of course, there's always a downside to such things. Losing the ground effect suddenly can be quite catastrophic.

One of the biggest things hindering overtaking in F1 is losing much of your downforce as you get caught in the turbulence generated by the car in front of you.

Regards,
SB

Than again, if wings break you have the same problem. I suppose with modern tech and good rules it should be possible to make rules that prevent stuff like active suspension to run the cars to extreme to the ground that a unexpected bump can let them crash or things like sideskirts hitting the ground that make the ground effect disappear if they get damaged. Just lose the plank and have flat underbelly's again and run the cars closer to the ground but not too close.

But maybe they will start complaining about costs again. You can bet on it that if you allow the ground effect back F1 will sparkle again (cool!) but the bottom of the cars will need to be replaced after each race because they get damaged every time.

Tahir2

27-Mar-2010, 01:03

Lewis Hamilton has apologised after his Mercedes road car was impounded by Melbourne police on Thursday evening.
The 25-year-old, who set the fastest time in Friday's Australian Grand Prix practice, is expected to be charged with improper use of a vehicle.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8589435.stm

Bludd

27-Mar-2010, 02:30

Quite silly of Lewis. It would be a disaster if he faces jail time. He should grovel like never before when in front of the judge.

Dr Evil

27-Mar-2010, 07:23

Quite silly of Lewis. It would be a disaster if he faces jail time. He should grovel like never before when in front of the judge.

Police constable Scott Woodford said Hamilton's rear wheels were skidding as he accelerated out of Albert Park, where Sunday's race is being staged

Sounds really serious... OMG his tires were skidding!1!

Simon F

27-Mar-2010, 08:26

Sounds really serious... OMG his tires were skidding!1!
The ABC (Australian Broadcasting Corp) said it was a "burnout". (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/03/27/2857749.htm)

Dr Evil

27-Mar-2010, 08:53

The ABC (Australian Broadcasting Corp) said it was a "burnout". (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/03/27/2857749.htm)

Sounds like he took a turn and let the tale slide a bit with some burned rubber. Is that a big deal, worthy of judges and speculating of jail time?

Silent_Buddha

27-Mar-2010, 09:33

Dunno about Australia, but in the US that would generally just result in a ticket for possibly minor infraction of reckless driving. A first offense would generally be just issued a warning and logged into the police network unless the attending police officer determined it actually jeapordized someone's safety at the time they were caught. Repeat offenses would get tickets or jail-time depending on seriousness.

Normally, I'd say at most he'd just get a ticket, but knowing how anal Australia is about some things, who knows.

Regards,
SB

Colourless

27-Mar-2010, 09:38

He'd probably just end up with a fine. Media is speculating it would be $600. Victoria, where the race is, is quite anal about 'hoon driving'. For him its more embarassing than anything.

Billy Idol

27-Mar-2010, 11:15

The solution is simple. Spray 50t of water onto tracks, and we will see lots of errors and overtakes.

No doubt Ferrari will complain since they do shit whenever there is a wet race.

I agree...but it is a little bit much water!
Just make the tires ultra worse!! This has the same effect than a water on the track...as I said, the only way to get overtakes in F1 without loosing the high tech spirit is to drastically reduce the grip of the tyres!!

Simon F

27-Mar-2010, 17:53

He'd probably just end up with a fine. Media is speculating it would be $600. Victoria, where the race is, is quite anal about 'hoon driving'..
Good thing for him his car wasn't "Queensland Racing Grey" or else it might have been double :-)

Bludd

27-Mar-2010, 21:56

Sounds really serious... OMG his tires were skidding!1!
Well, apparently it is against the law in Australia.

Anyway, it's not good for a world champion of a sport which regulatory body is running a global road safety campaign. He is also a role model.

Bludd

27-Mar-2010, 21:58

Qualifying was exciting. Hamilton didn't get into Q3.

Vettel is blisteringly fast.

Bludd

27-Mar-2010, 22:16

I have to reiterate: Vettel's pole lap was insane, the last sector was crazy. He had a back-end slide, sparks flying going over a kerb. What a lap.

tongue_of_colicab

27-Mar-2010, 22:37

Yep. Its seems RBR's ride height system is way more advanced than what others have (Ferrari is the only other team having a working system?). If its hitting the ground in quali there must be some way to get it up again after putting in the fuel.

Funny to see that Vettel was faster than the 2004 Ferrari btw. All the decreasing in horsepower, trying to cut down downforce etc has now produced cars that are actually faster, especially in corners, the point where speed would be the most dangerous. Thumbs up for the FIA...

Bludd

28-Mar-2010, 02:10

The 2004 Ferrari had Bridgestone tyres developed in a tyre war with Michelin and it had a V10. That was a seriously fast car, but we have to remember that the lap records set by Schumi in that car are lap times from the race. I would really like to see them beat the lap record tomorrow, but I doubt it.

28-Mar-2010, 02:24

Yep. Its seems RBR's ride height system is way more advanced than what others have (Ferrari is the only other team having a working system?). If its hitting the ground in quali there must be some way to get it up again after putting in the fuel.

Is this like the the double diff loophole thing ? Where you can adjust automatically the height of the car as long is no electronics is involved ?

Funny to see that Vettel was faster than the 2004 Ferrari btw. All the decreasing in horsepower, trying to cut down downforce etc has now produced cars that are actually faster, especially in corners, the point where speed would be the most dangerous. Thumbs up for the FIA...

Imagine if FIA didn't decrease horsepower, aero and stuff, teams will be breaking lap record every year. But doing more with less is pretty cutting edge, no ? But that was some lap Vettel did.

Bludd

28-Mar-2010, 03:35

Is this like the the double diff loophole thing ? Where you can adjust automatically the height of the car as long is no electronics is involved ?

Apparently it can only be done when the car is stationary, so they can do it after qualifying to cope with the increased fuel load and then in the first (only?) pit stop to compensate for the fuel having burned off. A lower car is a more efficient car, but you don't want it skidding along the ground either because you wear out the plank and that'll get you in trouble with the stewards.

Lightman

28-Mar-2010, 10:32

What a race!

Button drove fantastic race as well as Kubica in much inferior Renault!
Pity for Seb, he must rename his car because Lucy isn't bringing him any luck ...
I must say, Hamilton was a fighter today but it didn't work out for him in the end.

Now more of the same please for next week :twisted:

Phil

28-Mar-2010, 13:30

What a fantastic drive by Hamilton. Feel sorry his fighting spirit wasn't rewarded more. That 2nd pit stop puts a rather big question mark in the strategy of his race. Too bad about Webber knocking him off the track too.

After watching this race, I'm still not convinced the season is to get much better. Hamilton was much quicker than both Ferraris yet couldn't pass Alonso. Fair play to Alonso - he really held his position well.

Not too impressed by Massa. First he held up Hamilton half of the first part of the race, then Alonso who fought himself to position 5 after coming from right behind. Kudos to Kubica for staying strong, though he clearly was the slowest of the front runners. With better (worse) aero, I'm sure the Ferraris and Hamilton should have gotten past. What a pitty to an otherwise stunning race.

Davros

28-Mar-2010, 14:46

What a race!

Pity for Seb, he must rename his car because Lucy isn't bringing him any luck ...

I suggest calling it "The Johnny Herbet"

tongue_of_colicab

28-Mar-2010, 15:01

Tahir2

28-Mar-2010, 21:06

http://www.computerworld.com.au/article/339594/how_do_they_do_it_/?fp=4&fpid=2359

The IT of F1.

As for the race - Hamilton was good as was Button. Felt a little bad for Vettel but not much. Webber needs glasses, I mean seriously he has a habit of bumping into people.

Not a boring race at all ... bring on Malaysia!

Bludd

29-Mar-2010, 00:44

The Red Bull car echoes the 2005 McLaren. Webber made a lot of mistakes, very disappointing. Hamilton drove very well, but McLaren bringing him in for new tyres was a mistake.

Alonso had a horrible start, spun in the last corner and overtook like crazy until he came up to Massa. I think Alonso was faster than Massa, but since there are no team orders, Ferrari couldn't say "get out of the way, Felipe baby". What they could have done is say "Felipe, Fernando is faster" and Felipe should maybe have let him go. I think Alonso could have fought well with Kubica.

What happened to Schumacher? He couldn't overtake until the end. He was lucky to get a point. I am happy to see Kubica in second, though. Great result for Renault, a team I still like very much. Tonio gets in the points again, nice work. Sutil is so erratic.

Button got on the slicks first and wins. Very well done.

Nevertheless, it was a breathless race. Very good, just what we needed.

edit:
Also, just have to commend Hamilton on his overtake of Nico Rosberg on the outside. How he managed to hold on to that, I do not know. I think he was robbed by Webber and the team should not have pulled him in.

I cannot wait for next race. Happily Alonso is still on top of the championship.

Kaotik

29-Mar-2010, 01:52

Also, just have to commend Hamilton on his overtake of Nico Rosberg on the outside. How he managed to hold on to that, I do not know. I think he was robbed by Webber and the team should not have pulled him in.

Well, without Vettels crash Rosberg would have taken his position back by the looks of it, he was already on Hamiltons side on the next straight, on inner side of the next corner, but then Vettel crashed and yellow flags on the zone forced him to back down.

dizietsma

29-Mar-2010, 07:10

Some good drives yersterday, everyone has mentioned them so I won't again, it is rather a concern though that tyres go off so badly in the lumpy air behind cars so even on much better tyres ( 2 sec per lap) you then cannot do anything.

Shame for Seb, he should have 50 points by now except for gremlins. As for his over enthusiastic and rather brainless team mate the less said the better.

Phil

29-Mar-2010, 09:09

Fantastic drive by Hamilton? What about Alonso? It was kinda his own fault he had to start front the back after the first corner incident but racing from the back to p4 is a lot more impressive than what Hamilton did.

I'm not sure what Alonso's performance has to do with Hamiltons, or my view for that matter? Of course, Alonso drove a fantastic race as well - if only a bit disappointing that he didn't put more pressure on his team mate Massa who was clearly a lot slower. After all, Hamilton got passed him as well (and he also passed his own team mate earlier). Perhaps Alonso should be applauded for his diplomacy for not being too aggressive on his team mate, not complaining to the team and taking it very relaxed after the race.

What made me cringe at Hamiltons race is that he effectively worked himself up to position 3, passing Webber, Massa and Rosberg on the way, all excellent drivers. He also overtook Button, in equal cars. He then gets to position 3, can't overtake Kubica and then pits, only to have to work himself back to the Kubica, Massa, Alonso pack. At the end of the day, Alonso got what he obviously aimed for. Hamilton didn't. In that regard, I get why he's pissed with the team... after all, he did everything right during the race.

Oh well, it's F1 and just as all the years before, you win and fall as a team.

Bludd

29-Mar-2010, 09:14

Well, without Vettels crash Rosberg would have taken his position back by the looks of it, he was already on Hamiltons side on the next straight, on inner side of the next corner, but then Vettel crashed and yellow flags on the zone forced him to back down.
Yeah, Rosberg had to back off. I am talking about how Lewis managed to make the overtake stick right after he'd made it.

Phil

29-Mar-2010, 13:59

Interesting. I just re-watched the beginning of the F1 start in Melbourne and I realized what a great start Schumacher had too. Right up to the first corner, he was able to pull up side by side with both Alonso and Button who were at that point fighting for position 3. Given he had the outside line, he could have been quite well equiped to carry a bit of speed into the next corner too. Too bad his line caused Button and Alonso to colide which turned Alonso and ultimately damaged Schumachers front wing. If this had played out a little different, he would have been in quite a comfortable position, as well as also being in front of Rosberg.

Davros

29-Mar-2010, 17:43

I am happy to see Kubica in third,

Why? dont you like kubica ?

wishiknew

29-Mar-2010, 18:29

Lightman

29-Mar-2010, 21:31

Why? dont you like kubica ?

I also had impression Kubica was second ... :roll:

Oh well, I wonder who according to Bludd took his silver plate :lol:

Bludd

29-Mar-2010, 22:19

Why? dont you like kubica ?
Whoops, honest mistake. I am happy to see him in second place!

Bludd

29-Mar-2010, 22:20

I also had impression Kubica was second ... :roll:

Oh well, I wonder who according to Bludd took his silver plate :lol:
Well, Alonso of course! :D Just kidding. :)

tongue_of_colicab

29-Mar-2010, 23:57

I have to ask. What on earth is Bridgestone doing making tires that can last 50+ laps. And if we have to depend on weather and changing conditions for an exciting race then somethings wrong. I bet this race would have been a bore without it.

Well bridgestone is the only one supplying tires so making tires that last 50+ laps is way better PR than tires that are schredded after 10 laps. And as there is no competition it doesnt really matter that the tires arnt as fast as possible.

Bludd

30-Mar-2010, 00:51

Bridgestone being the only tyre supplier will only receive PR when something goes wrong. I think F1 needs a tyre war.

tongue_of_colicab

30-Mar-2010, 08:12

Not sure. It could go the wrong way. When we still had the tire ware I remember the Mclaren vs Ferrari days that even before the race we already knew who was going to win because the michelins or bridgestones would perform better in certain conditions.

Bludd

30-Mar-2010, 15:23

Brembo says Vettel did not have a brake failure.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/82546

Bludd

30-Mar-2010, 15:39

Can you find the irony in this picture of Kobayashi's crash with Hulkenberg and Buemi from the Australian GP?

http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/8104/ironyofironies.th.png (http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/8104/ironyofironies.png)

http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2010/03/30/lewis-the-dckhead-and-other-stories/

31-Mar-2010, 01:03

Did they ever say what caused Kabayashi to lose his front wing like that ? Was it contact or did it just decided to come off ? Those side impact crashes are the most scary.

Bludd

31-Mar-2010, 01:42

Did they ever say what caused Kabayashi to lose his front wing like that ? Was it contact or did it just decided to come off ? Those side impact crashes are the most scary.
No, haven't read anything. It has happened too much with the Sauber. If it's a fundamental problem with the mounting columns of the wing, they need to fix it asap because that shit is crazy dangerous.

31-Mar-2010, 02:21

Davros

31-Mar-2010, 02:59

didnt Kabayashi damage his front wing in quali or free practice ?

Phil

31-Mar-2010, 09:15

Hmm than the car is not fit for race, how did that get through safety ? Kobayashi collided with the wall first taking some of his speed, if he had hit the cars in front at full speed, it could have been another sad day in Aus GP.

Peter Sauber said during the race that the telemetry showed that Kobayashi had received a bump before he crashed... In anycase, this is not good news for Sauber. They're lacking speed and results that is costing them the chance of important sponsors...

Bludd

03-Apr-2010, 23:22

What a crazy quali ... Ferrari and McLaren mess up royally, what a huge mistake not getting a banker lap at the beginning of Q1.

Webber did a super pole lap in wet conditions, he was braving it out on inters. Rosberg outqualified Vettel who is P3.

Tomorrow is going to be great.

Edit: I presume that since all cars in top 10 were on wet tyres, they are not obliged to start on them for the race if it is not wet. Anyone have a definitive answer? I cannot push myself to look at the regs.

04-Apr-2010, 00:55

Last race they could change to wet so my guess is that there is a rule that said you can change to dry too.

I think Alonso and Hamilton will be battling out from the back. I hope to see awsome driving from those two. I hope Webber wins though that was some pole.

Bludd

04-Apr-2010, 01:18

I think both Ferraris and McLarens are going to storm through. It is going to be interesting.

infinity4

04-Apr-2010, 08:09

I was wondering, why didn't Webber get penalised for hitting Hamilton from back when Hamilton and Rosberg were penalised for same thing (but in pits) in Canada 2008?

I know race isn't same thing as pit lane instructions (which is more wrong obviously) but surely Webber did ruin Hamilton's races?

04-Apr-2010, 12:51

RBR one and two, congrat to Vettel and Webber. Nico too. Hamilton was fun to watch in that race. Too bad for Alonso but it was spectacular.

tongue_of_colicab

04-Apr-2010, 13:47

Yeah looked like one of the good 'ol Honda ones when they seemed to make a habbit of it to blow up atleast 1 engine every race weekend. Not the pussy style turn it off before it goes totally FUBAR that we usually get to see nowdays.

Lightman

04-Apr-2010, 21:13

Excellent race!

Looks like from now on the true season will start! 7 drivers split by 9 points :cool:

I know Kubica is not in the hunt (at least yet) but still ...
I would like to see Massa wins drivers championship on his last year in Ferrari, but I don't mind Alonso either!
TBH there isn't a driver I would mind winning, it's just I prefer some of them more than others.

Bludd

04-Apr-2010, 21:44

Great work by Vettel. Webber should have defended more in the first corner. They were cruising this race, Rosberg couldn't attack at all.

Alonso had a down-shift problem and then his engine went. For the next race, he HAS to get ahead of Massa at the start and stay ahead. Hamilton overtook really well but couldn't take the Force India which has a Mercedes engine too and is a slippery car down the straits.

Kaotik

05-Apr-2010, 03:23

Dr Evil

05-Apr-2010, 06:01

There's one thing that went really wrong with last race - Hamilton was only given a warning.
I mean, he switched lanes some 4-5 times when Petrov was trying to overtake him, while you're only allowed to do it once

I personally can't believe he got a warning for it. The lane switching rule is about blocking the other car, when it was clear as day that Hamilton was only trying to break the slipstream. Hamilton wasn't reacting to Petrov's moves, it was the other way around!! Petrov let Hamilton pass him two times on purpose to get the slipstream benefit and get his position back. It is a really stupid rule if it also applies to this instead of only to blocking. Nobody forced Petrov to follow... It's the same thing if Hamilton was driving there by himself.

All in all this was also pretty good race, although the Reb Bulls had it real easy. I hope Massa keeps doing great.

Kaotik

05-Apr-2010, 11:11

I personally can't believe he got a warning for it. The lane switching rule is about blocking the other car, when it was clear as day that Hamilton was only trying to break the slipstream. Hamilton wasn't reacting to Petrov's moves, it was the other way around!! Petrov let Hamilton pass him two times on purpose to get the slipstream benefit and get his position back. It is a really stupid rule if it also applies to this instead of only to blocking. Nobody forced Petrov to follow... It's the same thing if Hamilton was driving there by himself.

All in all this was also pretty good race, although the Reb Bulls had it real easy. I hope Massa keeps doing great.

Slipstreaming is essential part of overtaking, the little they can do it, trying to "break slipstreaming off" is part of blocking overtaking, and once is all you get, not 4-5 times.

DJ12

05-Apr-2010, 11:22

chavvdarrr

05-Apr-2010, 11:44

Maybe in your hamilton hating world not in the real world though.No, its in your Hamilton lovers world where he can do anything with just a warning.

Dr Evil

05-Apr-2010, 11:52

Slipstreaming is essential part of overtaking, the little they can do it, trying to "break slipstreaming off" is part of blocking overtaking, and once is all you get, not 4-5 times.

It's really easy to follow the car in front, Petrov had no difficulties in getting close. The only real difference between that time and the time where Petrov managed to re-overtake Hamilton was, that Hamilton took the perfect line (with regards to defending a position, not the fastest line) to the first corner, him changing course at the main straight didn't make that any easier for him or harder for Petrov.

The only really nasty thing in relation to overtaking was Petrov's move to let Hamilton just barely pass him at the last corner, twice he did it, which allowed him to get right into the slipstream, now that's really blocking overtaking... That was the only move he could do to STOP Hamilton from overtaking him. All fair racing in my book.

Bludd

05-Apr-2010, 15:27

I think the warning was justified. They could have penalised him on the spot, but that would have been way too harsh.

Lightman

05-Apr-2010, 18:37

I think the warning was justified. They could have penalised him on the spot, but that would have been way too harsh.

+1

Penalties should be only issued in really dangerous situations, otherwise all drivers will be afraid to make a move!

BTW anyone seen f1.com video from Australian race? The beginning is amazing with Petrov negotiating space between two cars! :shock:

Bludd

05-Apr-2010, 18:44

Yeah, saw that now, Lightman. That was literally no space for him. :D

infinity4

06-Apr-2010, 00:06

Hamilton had some bad luck of stewards in the past, so this is one good thing that went his way.

Kaotik

06-Apr-2010, 00:57

Hamilton had some bad luck of stewards in the past, so this is one good thing that went his way.

Bad luck? :shock:
He's been forgiven more than any other driver ever probably (well, perhaps excluding Schumacher)

Bludd

06-Apr-2010, 01:05

Cue DJ12 calling Kaotik a Hamilton-hater. Cue retarded argument.

DJ12

06-Apr-2010, 19:32

it's only retarded when you join in

Bludd

06-Apr-2010, 21:56

it's only retarded when you join in
You are a child. You believe everyone hates Hamilton. I don't hate Hamilton, I think he's awesome.

Kaotik

06-Apr-2010, 22:47

Stop the damn insults to each other :evil:

I don't hate Hamilton, he's one of the best drivers out there - I only hate how media treats him (luckily, to lesser extent now compared to couple first years), how damn arrogant he was when he was a freshman (comparing himself to the greatest drivers like Senna for example), and how many times him breaking rules has been overlooked. And his father sticking his face everywhere in F1 broadcasts (luckily, again, this seems to be in past, now).

But that doesn't mean I hate the guy, or think of him any less as a driver.

Phil

07-Apr-2010, 08:27

Kaotik - maybe you should rethink your posting style then if you don't want to come across that way, because I'd say there are more people that see you as one than not.

There's one thing that went really wrong with last race - Hamilton was only given a warning.
I mean, he switched lanes some 4-5 times when Petrov was trying to overtake him, while you're only allowed to do it once

Evidently, you didn't watch the same race then. To overtake, one would have to pull out to the driver in front. Instead of Petrov doing this, it was Hamilton who went to the side, ultimately giving Petrov the room to overtake that he needed. In that sense, one could say Hamilton gave Petrov more than a few opportunities to overtake.

Of course, the aim was to take away the slip-stream advantage Petrov was trying to get.

What Hamilton didn't do was blocking. You can only block, if the one coming up behind is driving quicker and a move by the one in front results in a block. That is allowed once. Hamilton in fact was slowly pulling away, even as he was moving to one side to the other, trying to shake of Petrov.

It's not a clear cut, which is why I think a warning was justified.

Bludd

07-Apr-2010, 13:39

Anyone know anything about Ferrari's conclusions after looking at Alonso's engine from Malaysia?

tommysand

07-Apr-2010, 15:24

Bludd

07-Apr-2010, 15:51

I don't like the energy drink but I am fan of the Red Bull team. It's a young and ambitious team and Adrian Newey is an important factor for the success of the team. I was really happy when Vettel and Webber managed to show their good performance from the qualifying in the race, it was a well-deserved double victory for the team.
What is now the Red Bull team started out as a totally new team called Stewart Grand Prix in 1997. It was a Ford works team and Ford bought it wholly in 1999 and turned it into Jaguar. Before becoming Jaguar, it was on an upward path, it had won races and had podiums and ended up 4th in the Constructor's. The Jaguar years were a disaster and Red Bull took over and had a gradual upward path with a slight dip in 2008. Of the established teams this season, it is the youngest as the previous youngest team, Toyota, pulled out before the season started. It took 13 years for them to become successful and at least 14 years for them to win a championship provided they win one this year.

chavvdarrr

08-Apr-2010, 18:47

Anyone know anything about Ferrari's conclusions after looking at Alonso's engine from Malaysia?Read somewhere that it was electronic part that was in fault.
Its made by McLaren, right? :D

Bludd

08-Apr-2010, 19:34

Read somewhere that it was electronic part that was in fault.
Its made by McLaren, right? :D
What I read was that the Sauber engine problems were related to electronics. The ECU is made by McLaren and Microsoft, so it probably bluescreened because of a kernel mode driver. :D

Anyway, Ferrari said the Sauber problem was unrelated to their own problem, but I haven't been able to find more info.

tongue_of_colicab

08-Apr-2010, 21:36

Probably because they dont care too much about us knowing. Couldnt it be heat related? The Ferrari seemed pretty bulletproof in testing but that was all in cold weather. The past 3 races have been in hot locations and we know they had problems with heat in bahrein and australia so a heat problem would seem most logical? Other than that the gearbox problem on Alono's car probably didnt do wonders for the engine either I guess.

Bludd

08-Apr-2010, 21:40

Yeah, they are a bit marginal on cooling. I hope it isn't something worse.

Lightman

08-Apr-2010, 22:06

Most likely heat related.
Renault engines were on the verge as well and Kubica's engine was loosing water pressure during the race. Main reason why he increased the gap to Nico in latter part of the race.
Vettel and Webber were saying they drove latter part of the race saving engine and the proof for that is one faster lap Webber did on closing laps just to show off and take fastest lap of the race :smile:

BTW do we know if Renault engines are already tweaked after FIA agreed modifications?

For Chinese race I expect Mercedes to make one of the biggest steps in performance of all teams for that race. From now on it will be more difficult for mid pack teams to advance into Q3. We will have 2 Ferraris, 2 Mercedes, 2 McLarens, 2 RedBulls and only 2 places left for the rest. This of course in normal weather conditions.

Bludd

08-Apr-2010, 22:33

BTW do we know if Renault engines are already tweaked after FIA agreed modifications?

IIRC, Boullier said it happened before Bahrain, so the tweaks should already be in there. I think he said they cannot do anything once the season has started so the work was done between the seasons.

tommysand

09-Apr-2010, 12:28

I know that Red Bull has emerged out of the Stewart/Jaguar team but the team members have changed over the years and after Red Bull came in, the team has started to become successful.

Bludd

09-Apr-2010, 12:57

I know that Red Bull has emerged out of the Stewart/Jaguar team but the team members have changed over the years and after Red Bull came in, the team has started to become successful.
Indeed, my point was that it was the youngest established team now that Toyota has left and that Ford screwed the pooch with the whole Jaguar Racing project.

Dave Baumann

12-Apr-2010, 12:59

Here, anyone want to buy one of US F1's Trailers (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Formula-One-Motorsport-Trailer-1-OF-2-NO-RESERVE_W0QQitemZ260583097200QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH _DefaultDomain_3?hash=item3cabf68370)?

Bludd

13-Apr-2010, 19:41

McLaren have announced that they are dropping development on a new suspension system after the FIA have clarified the rules on ride height changes.

So how are Red Bull managing to bottom out and have sparks flying in qualifying and then have proper ride height in the race if they can't change springs and dampers in parc ferme?

Anyone have some insight?

MfA

13-Apr-2010, 22:48

Relevant rules :

10.2.2 Any powered device which is capable of altering the configuration or affecting the performance of any part of the suspension system is forbidden.
10.2.3 No adjustment may be made to the suspension system while the car is in motion.

34.5 If a competitor modifies any part on the car or makes changes to the set up of the suspension whilst the car is being held under parc ferme conditions the relevant driver must start the race from the pit lane and follow the procedures laid out in Article 38.2.

So what you need is a non powered device which adjusts the ride height completely without intervention but which only kicks in when the car is not moving. What exactly does powered mean? Are you allowed to use mechanical energy stored in a spring? If so you could mount the gas tank on springs and use the weight from the fuel to adjust gas pressure for the suspension with a simple piston (with a valve which only opens while the car is at a full stop).

Bludd

13-Apr-2010, 23:25

I think it's weird. Look at Vettel's amazing pole lap from Australia. Look at all the sparks flying in the last sector.

Thanks for digging up the rules, Mfa. I wonder what they are doing ...

Phil

14-Apr-2010, 07:53

Anyone have some insight?

There are a few ideas on how it might be done here: http://scarbsf1.wordpress.com/2010/04/01/402/

(Recommended read)

Bludd

14-Apr-2010, 12:37

There are a few ideas on how it might be done here: http://scarbsf1.wordpress.com/2010/04/01/402/

(Recommended read)
Thanks!

MfA

14-Apr-2010, 13:40

I agree with the commenter there ... with the standard shock absorber "Pressurizing the shocks will not work". You need to adjust the spring force, not the stiffness of the dampener ... which is what the gas pressure in the shock effectively does.

That doesn't mean it's impossible to use air pressure, but you need something like an inflatable bag which increases spring force like air suspension in road cars.

Whatever they use it either has to work autonomously and be triggered by the car being at a full stop, or it has to work nearly instantaneously (which rules out air suspension). If it's driver controlled it has to start and finish it's adjustment after the race starts but before the car starts rolling (before the race starts you aren't allowed to make changes, after the car starts rolling the suspension isn't allowed to be adjusted in any way whatsoever).

Personally I'd put a air bag behind the springs, mount the gas tank on springs and put a second air bag beneath the tank. Then put a valve which only opens while the car is at a stop between the bags, maybe some kind of ratchet to keep the tank in place while the car is moving so it doesn't work as an inertial dampener of it's own.

Gubbi

16-Apr-2010, 09:53

Buemi has a bad day at the office (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84-egMy9GTM)

Cheers

Gerry

16-Apr-2010, 09:55

Buemi has a bad day at the office (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84-egMy9GTM)

Cheers

That was a ridiculous accident. I've never seen anything like that happen before in F1.

tongue_of_colicab

16-Apr-2010, 12:22

Bet they cant manage to get the wheels off that fast at a pit stop :P

Bludd

16-Apr-2010, 13:00

Buemi has a bad day at the office (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84-egMy9GTM)

Cheers
Holy shit, that looks like a movie special effect. Toro Rosso said it was an upright failure, a new upright for this weekend. They are changing to an old, proven version.

This is one of the reasons no testing is bad.

Grall

16-Apr-2010, 15:05

I watched the wheel ejection system being activated on a webcast of a Viasat broadcast, and listening to the commentary made the two commentators look like complete idiots. The accident itself isn't shown, so all we (and the commentators) see is Buemi sliding along in the gravel, sans spoiler and front wheels. The commentators start talking about some drivers having complained about bad grip, apparantly predominately on the rear end, and take the accident as a sign of this.

Then on instant rerun, we now see a cockpit view from Buemi's car. The commentators continue to spew some random BS and then fall silent - thankfully. Then the wheels pop off in a hail of debris, and one of the commentators go - initially completely oblivious to the fact both front wheels just overtook the rest of the vehicle - "yeah... whoah! Eje! What's happening?!" THE GODDAM WHEELS JUST CAME OFF, IDIOT!

Sports dudes... No brains whatsoever lol... Only statistics and some basic vocabulary, that's all there's room for in their skulls.

Also, I love how the driver tries to parry the skidding motions of the car as it slides through the gravel by turning the steering wheel...! A true professional, to the bitter end. :D

Bludd

16-Apr-2010, 16:10

Dave Baumann

16-Apr-2010, 18:39

Bludd

16-Apr-2010, 21:33

I really like Martin Brundle, he's awesome. Jonathan Legard is too much of a radio commentator, he talks too fast and says things we know from looking at the screen. BBC has a good pit crew and I think their F1 broadcasts are the best in the biz. The new host, Long-legs Children's TV guy, he's pretty good too and Jordan vs. Coulthard is pretty amusing, though when Jordan was gone and Gazza took over, that was really special.

Davros

16-Apr-2010, 23:07

I'd like to see eddie ervine replace dc just for the lulz ;)

Bludd

17-Apr-2010, 23:02

Wow, that was an exciting Q3. Vettel smoked everyone, Webber in second and Alonso in third. Rosberg, Button, Hamilton, Massa, Kubica, Schumacher and Sutil is the top ten.

Bludd

17-Apr-2010, 23:09

Have you guys seen the chin fungus on Lewis Hamilton? He looks like he lives in Amish country.

Davros

18-Apr-2010, 00:04

I thinks its jealousy, lewis thought to himself, jenson has a stupid beard I want one..

Lightman

18-Apr-2010, 20:38

I remember there was a roundup of how commentators had handled the final stages of the 2008 Brazil race. It kinda confirmed that the British commentary team were the best as they had figured out what might happen based on Glock sliding all over the palce, before it happened, and then they followed it through until it did happen. I think one of the German commentary teams were the second best to realise while others still didn't figure it out until after the race finished.

I totally agree!
British F1 TV coverage is the best! I love to watch and listen to their full coverage from Free Practice to Race and post race analysis!
Commentators are funny, knowledgeable and behave properly on the live transmission.
I had experienced Polish equivalent and it was so bad that I've turned down volume on TV and just looked to the transmission itself.
Luckily for me I'm forced to watch F1 in Poland only once or twice in a year ... and I have BBC one recorded and waiting for me at home :grin:.

Regarding todays race - just WOW!

Only small issue was the second SC :???:
Why? And why for so long? To spice the show and/or mix it even more?

Kaotik

18-Apr-2010, 21:03

It's strange that McLaren and/or Hamilton didn't get penalized on the pit incident with Vettel, wasn't there new rule this year that you're not allowed to send in your driver out from pits if another car is coming too close?

RobertR1

18-Apr-2010, 22:14

In boxing, there's a saying that a fighter can get old overnight. I think the same applies to racing. In this case, this applies to Schumacher.

If he goes at this pace, I don't expect him to finish up his contract. Instead, he'll bow out at the end of the season. In no way, does this put a dent in his legacy. However, I think his fast days are well behind him. Ofcourse, I hope he turns it around and proves me wrong but I don't see it happening.

18-Apr-2010, 23:40

Schumacher car wasn't set up right, I think he missed one of the practice session due to puncture. But he has no traction going out of corner and it was just destroying his rear which make the problem worst.

I think the Vettel Hamilton pit lane incident happens because Lewis got wheelspin when he got out, that's why he looked like he was release into Vettel. In fact they were released at the same time.

Congrats to Button though.

Bludd

18-Apr-2010, 23:51

What a crazy race. Alonso marginally did a jump start, stopped a thousand times and came fourth.

Button did a really good job, I'm really impressed. I thought Hamilton would cream him, but Button has won twice.

Petrov kicked ass, he had a spin but overtook Schumi and Webber to get a nice load of points.

Massa just proves again to me that he is not good in the wet. Schumi is not hooked up with the car, he clearly needs something with a better front-end and better traction.

Rosberg on the podium again, good job, though he needs to win a race soon.

Man, I wish Alonso hadn't jumped the start ...

Davros

19-Apr-2010, 00:26

regarding the bbc have you noticed eddie jordan starts nearly every reply with "well"

Bludd

19-Apr-2010, 00:53

regarding the bbc have you noticed eddie jordan starts nearly every reply with "well"
He also says "if I may" and stuff about David Coulthard's mother.

Jordan is a character, no doubt about it.

Bludd

19-Apr-2010, 01:38

I also have to say that Schumacher vs. Hamilton was very entertaining. Schumi did a great job defending against Hamilton for those laps. It was great fun. :)

Phil

19-Apr-2010, 08:09

Schumacher car wasn't set up right, I think he missed one of the practice session due to puncture. But he has no traction going out of corner and it was just destroying his rear which make the problem worst.

Correct, that's what Schumacher said right after qualifying 9th to the German press and that he thought it would be very first to better his position during the race because he had problems with his setup and due to not being allowed to change his setup would make it extremely difficult. The rain probably helped him get further in front for a while but it wasn't long until they eventually got passed.

WhiningKhan

19-Apr-2010, 08:53

DJ12

19-Apr-2010, 09:28

What a crazy race. Alonso marginally did a jump start, stopped a thousand times and came fourth.
Posts and names do not fit on my mobile at the same time but i knew this was one of yours. He was miles clear by the first corner which doesn't happen from a marginal jump start. Looking at button and hamiltons faces it's pretty clear hamilton was given the 'back off' message.

Bludd

19-Apr-2010, 10:20

Posts and names do not fit on my mobile at the same time but i knew this was one of yours. He was miles clear by the first corner which doesn't happen from a marginal jump start. Looking at button and hamiltons faces it's pretty clear hamilton was given the 'back off' message.
I've been watching it more and it was a blatant jump start. Still, Alonso came fourth.

Whitmarsh said they had not given a back-off message to their drivers and Hamilton was all over the place in the last few laps. I think he was pushing but both of them did not have any tyres left.

19-Apr-2010, 11:06

Have they ruled on the Hamilton Vettel pitlane incident yet ? It would be a shame if Hamilton get spot penalty for next race.

Davros

19-Apr-2010, 11:21

reprimand :
"McLaren's Lewis Hamilton and Red Bull's Sebastian Vettel have been reprimanded following a pit-lane incident at the Chinese Grand Prix."

chavvdarrr

19-Apr-2010, 11:40

Looking at button and hamiltons faces it's pretty clear hamilton was given the 'back off' message.it was 55th lap (from 56) when radio told him to keep his position
At that moment he was 1.5sec behind Button, I don't think he could catch him and overtake in 1 lap.
5 laps before that he was ~ 9-10 sec behind, but Button went wide and lost 4sec and slowed his pace - Hamilton gaining 1s/lap

And I wonder what must happen in order to punish some people? for running outside the allowed corridor in the pits, for example?!

Tokelil

19-Apr-2010, 11:56

All tracks need to be equipped with a sprinkler system spraying a random amount of water on the track, in case there is not real rain available.

Last three races have been the best F1 entertainment in decades.Might be entertaining to watch, but IMO last race has little to do with sport and is more like a lottery. There was some great racing and overtaking, but the sport and competition part just becomes a lottery, which is a shame IMO.

Phil

19-Apr-2010, 12:30

it was 55th lap (from 56) when radio told him to keep his position
At that moment he was 1.5sec behind Button, I don't think he could catch him and overtake in 1 lap.
5 laps before that he was ~ 9-10 sec behind, but Button went wide and lost 4sec and slowed his pace - Hamilton gaining 1s/lap

And I wonder what must happen in order to punish some people? for running outside the allowed corridor in the pits, for example?!

I think they were a bit concerned that Hamilton would provoke Button into a stupid mistake and lose a strong 1-2.

Bludd

19-Apr-2010, 15:19

DJ12

19-Apr-2010, 16:21

the race made me wonder what the hell have happened to the intermediates, they used to last for ages and work on a drying track now 5 minutes without rain and they are useless.

Bludd

19-Apr-2010, 16:24

the race made me wonder what the hell have happened to the intermediates, they used to last for ages and work on a drying track now 5 minutes without rain and they are useless.
They changed them to a softer spec.

I am not surprised Bridgestone is leaving, because they can only get bad publicity from being a single tyre supplier: if they provide good tyres for everyone the only time we hear about Bridgestone is when they have a failure, if they provide a tyre that is difficult to use for the teams (as we have now) that's all we hear about. Can't get heat into the tyres, too hard too soft, tyres don't work etc.

Kaotik

19-Apr-2010, 16:53

I think chavvdarrr is referring to Hamilton's very late decision to enter the pits. He was going through the last turn when he suddenly change direction and headed for the pit entry. It was probably a very late radio call, but he effectively went backwards on the track which is not really a good thing to do.

That was one incident, but another was later in the race when he entered at the same time as Vettel, he got in front of Vettel by not going between the white lines for the pit entry
This is very bad quality, but you can see how Hamilton took a shortcut to make sure he's in front of Vettel on entry

O0IdLYxorq4

Bludd

19-Apr-2010, 17:00

I don't really see a problem with that, they haven't come to the speed limit line yet so I think it's fair game. More jockeying than that could be dangerous, though.

Gerry

19-Apr-2010, 17:03

Dave Baumann

19-Apr-2010, 17:18

That was one incident, but another was later in the race when he entered at the same time as Vettel, he got in front of Vettel by not going between the white lines for the pit entry
This is very bad quality, but you can see how Hamilton took a shortcut to make sure he's in front of Vettel on entry
If you look at the external shots you'll see that Hamilton was still in front all the way through, defending his position.

Didn't Alonso do exactly the same thing (to his teammate!) not long after that?

Yes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNFIvp8KFZ8). And the difference here is that Alonso was not in front until that move (certinaly he's quite far alongside) and he had all 4 wheels over the white line as well. If nobody is crying foul at that then they shouldn't be crying foul over Hamilton.

Bludd

19-Apr-2010, 18:36

What I think was the worst incident was when Vettel started edging Hamilton towards the inner lane of the pit lane. They were very right to be reprimanded. Vettel should not have edged Hamilton and Hamilton should have yielded earlier.

DJ12

19-Apr-2010, 19:49

Dave Baumann

20-Apr-2010, 18:23

I was tempted to re-watch all the races so far to see how many overtaking moves Hamilton has actually made so far, but it looks like others have already done it:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/83074

The McLaren driver has been one of the hardest charging drivers this season - having completed 32 competitive overtaking moves in the first four races

I think thats an incredible statistic for so early in the season, especially seeing as its "so difficult to overtake" in F! these days!

Bludd

20-Apr-2010, 20:27

Hamilton is clearly one of the most aggressive drivers in F1 now. I wonder how many overtakes Alonso has done thus far. He too has had to fight from the back a lot thus far.

Barcelona is going to be a boring race, I reckon. It rarely rains there when the race is on and the track is very difficult to overtake on and it is a very aero-dependent circuit which is going to be very good to Red Bull if the status quo remains.

chavvdarrr

21-Apr-2010, 11:33

you are right bludd, vettel should've been punished in my opinion as what he did was potentially very dangerous with the risk for considerable loss of life. There was absolutely no need for him to sqeeze hamilton the way he did. i'm sure if hamilton had done it the drivers association would be sitting feathers about.
Vettel should be penalised?
What for? For refusing to stay away from Hamilton's way? Vettel was between painted borders all the time, it was the other guy who was driving hundreds of meters outside the border line.
If that one was anyone else but Hamilton he'd be penalised.
Since when taking a shortcut is ok in F1? Because that is what Hamilton did on his first pit, he intentionally went through the grass.
Let's make a rule: no one dares to fight with Hamilton!
No one dares to overtake him, no one even dares to fight with him, just take off the road once you see him in the mirrors...
Don't block his road on red lights, they are for pussies and Hamilton is not - he goes ahead, even on red :P
Oh, and police should not make him blush if he overspeeds or makes ANY dangerous maneuvers - not even if he does that on public roads :roll:

After all the holy Bernie himself asked "stop talking what Hamilton did wrong, he is good guy" ...
How often had this happened before?
"favouritism", thats the word about Hamilton.
If you like that, well, do you like favouritism in real life?

DJ12

21-Apr-2010, 12:40

maybe if you read the post you'd know why i think vettel should've been penalised might've saved you some time by not posting that utter shite above.

Kaotik

21-Apr-2010, 15:57

maybe if you read the post you'd know why i think vettel should've been penalised might've saved you some time by not posting that utter shite above.

Errrr, Vettel should be penalized for Hamilton almost smashing his side when exiting his pitslot? :shock:

Sure, Vettel could have moved more to left, but why should he, he left the pits first and was (even if slightly) ahead on Hamilton, heck, McLaren should have prevented Hamilton from leaving the slot at that point with current rules, even if he had some wheelspin, Vettel left his slot earlier, and you're not allowed (AFAIK) to let your driver leave pits if someone is too close and moving on the pits

And again, you're not allowed to take shortcuts in F1, yet Hamilton did (as did apparently some others who should have been penalized for it, too)

DJ12

21-Apr-2010, 16:56

i am refering to the point where vetel attempted to nudge hamilton into the williams pit. They were released at the same time near as damn it if hamilton hadn't had spun his wheels he would've been ahead. That was fair by both drivers in my opinion, even driving down the pit side by side would've been ok as it was in the past with other drivers showing respect for each other. Vettel purposfully trying to intimidate hamilton will his actions was uncalled for. You can argue the toss about hamilton yeilding or whatever, but the fact remains he was side by side with vettel and vettels actions could've had disaterous results.

Kaotik

21-Apr-2010, 19:21

MfA

21-Apr-2010, 19:23

He didn't try to nudge him in to the pit, he tried to make him break.

Lightman

21-Apr-2010, 20:33

What this statistic shows most is that Hamilton was qualifying out of position the most and that McLaren car is the fastest on longer straights.

I'm not questioning his overtaking skills because they are brilliant and he's not afraid to make a move! But we shouldn't be taking this number at face value for above mentioned reasons.

I think once most of the cars will get their versions of F-Duct number of overtakes made by Lewis will go down considerably (he will still have Mercedes power behind him :wink:).

What's interesting to note as well is that most overtakes McLaren drivers are doing are at the end of straights, whenever most RedBull overtakes are in twisty sections of the track or just after corner exits.
Clear indication of great straight line speed and enormous down-force in two very different cars.

I was tempted to re-watch all the races so far to see how many overtaking moves Hamilton has actually made so far, but it looks like others have already done it:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/83074

I think thats an incredible statistic for so early in the season, especially seeing as its "so difficult to overtake" in F! these days!

DJ12

22-Apr-2010, 07:09

He didn't try to nudge him in to the pit, he tried to make him break.

But he didn't brake and they touched wheels therefore he nudged him. I am not against vettel he and hamilton are the only drivers that make watching interesting, i just think him 'trying to make hamilton brake' which lets be honest would've only worked with a driver with less nerve than hamilton should've been stamped on.

Phil

22-Apr-2010, 08:43

Vettel's stop was timed @ 10.4 secs, Hamilton's 10.3 secs (it doesn't include any wheelspins or such, it stops before those)

The 0.1 sec faster stop is definately not enough to make up for the time it takes Hamilton to enter and stop at his pit spot which is 1 ahead of Vettels, so Hamilton was released later than Vettel

Instead of relying on stupid numbers, just watch the race again. Hamilton was in fact released just an instance after Vettel. In this sense, from the view of the McLaren pit crew - it was a safe release. The problem was, Hamilton had way more wheelspin and thus ended up next to Vettel.

Even if Hamilton would have been released directly into the path of Vettel, it wouldn't have been Hamiltons fault, but that of his crew. The reason why Vettel could have seen a penalty was because of his swerve towards Hamilton that could have resulted in a very dangerous accident. I agree to a point that this may not have been Vettels intentions.

No penalty for both is a good call as it had little bearing on the race results anyway - as Hamilton gave up his position before the pit-exit and Vettel ended up in front. What is there more to discuss?

Bludd

22-Apr-2010, 15:06

Can anyone take it to Red Bull oer 19 races? (http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns22205.html)

To say that Schumacher's return has not lived up to expectations would be an understatement but with a driver of his class, there has to be valid reasons. Michael has always wanted a car with a strong 'pointy' front end, which he clearly hasn't got. At Barcelona though, the team will have an updated car with a longer wheelbase and different weight distribution which, Michael must pray, will go a significant way to solving his difficulties.

"The problem is not the wheelbase per se, it's the weight distribution" Ross Brawn said in China. "We got that wrong. When we started trying these tyres we realised we didn't have the weight distribution we needed and immediately went to the limit of what we could achieve with the car. The tyres had changed to a smaller front, the rears changed again, we had no opportunity to try them and we didn't make as good a guess on what we needed as some of the other teams. The modifications for Barcelona should put us into a better range for what we want to achieve."

MfA

22-Apr-2010, 22:53

But he didn't brake and they touched wheels therefore he nudged him. I am not against vettel he and hamilton are the only drivers that make watching interesting, i just think him 'trying to make hamilton brake' which lets be honest would've only worked with a driver with less nerve than hamilton should've been stamped on.
I don't see what nerve has to do with it. Hamilton lost the opportunity to do anything legally with the wheel spin, he was never going to be able to overtake any more at the end of the pits. He refused to acknowledge it and basically showed the intent to do what he wanted to do any way illegally.

That's not nerve, that's foolhardiness.

Phil

23-Apr-2010, 07:27

I don't see what nerve has to do with it. Hamilton lost the opportunity to do anything legally with the wheel spin, he was never going to be able to overtake any more at the end of the pits. He refused to acknowledge it and basically showed the intent to do what he wanted to do any way illegally.

That's not nerve, that's foolhardiness.

I don't think there's more to be read into the situation that hasn't already been said. Hamilton got out, was surprised to see Vettel beside him. In that moment, breaking perhaps wasn't even an option and if you watch the video closely, you'll see that the cars are very close to each other. In fact, Hamilton's front-left tyre was pretty much somewhere between the two wheels of Vettel. To break in that instance would have likely resulted in some very bad damage to both cars. Hamilton did give up his position when he had the room to do so safely - at the end of the pits. What's all the fuzz about? It's not as if Hamilton stayed side by side right onto the track.

Gubbi

23-Apr-2010, 07:49

It was just great aggressive racing from both drivers. Props to Hamilton for trying to get out first, props to Vettel for denying him.

Storm in a tea cup, IMO. It's not exactly GT2 Laguna Seca 2009 ALMS season ender type controversy.

Cheers

MfA

23-Apr-2010, 20:21

In that moment, breaking perhaps wasn't even an option and if you watch the video closely, you'll see that the cars are very close to each other.
Moment? Vettel closed the space between them at a shallow angle in around 2 seconds ... for a F1 driver I would assume that is more than a moment.

Bludd

04-May-2010, 00:25

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/andrewbenson/2010/04/what_f1s_future_means_for_the.html

Some interesting facts, information and analysis of where F1 is headed in terms of engines.

As it happens, though, considering their performance, even current F1 engines are paragons of efficiency. Here are a couple of facts that might surprise you:

In terms of specific fuel consumption - power per litre of fuel burnt - an F1 engine is 20% more efficient than that in a small-capacity road car such as a Ford Fiesta or Renault Clio, and produces about the same amount of CO2 per kg of burnt fuel.
In an 18-race season, the entire F1 grid burns the same amount of fuel as a Boeing 747 does in one flight from London to Japan.

Bludd

04-May-2010, 00:33

Also, here's a fan q&a with BBC's expert commentator Martin Brundle

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8655252.stm

Kaotik

04-May-2010, 01:05

http://www.mtv3.fi/urheilu/f1/uutiset.shtml/arkistot/f1/2010/05/1114494 (in finnish)

Volkswagen motorsports representative Hans-Joachim Stuck (ex-F1 driver, too) says VW is interested in providing engine for F1 teams, too, but they're not interested in getting their own team like Mercedes.

According to Stuck, it's a possibility that if the suggested plan to switch to new 1.5l turbo engines in 2013 goes through, VW will be there, too. Those same "base engines" might be get to used in other FIA-series, too, possibly without turbo for example.

Bludd

04-May-2010, 01:29

VW should stop being such teases. Get into F1 and compete or shut up.

Bludd

04-May-2010, 11:50

United States GP could be staged in Jersey

Read in succession, first to last.
http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2010/05/04/so-now-we-know-jersey-city/
http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2010/05/04/the-jersey-city-proposal-a-night-race/
http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2010/05/04/thoughts-on-jersey-city/

DJ12

04-May-2010, 18:34

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/andrewbenson/2010/04/what_f1s_future_means_for_the.html

Some interesting facts, information and analysis of where F1 is headed in terms of engines.
I think the guy who does the Friday practise session for the bbc mentioned without all the aero it would get better miles per gallon than a prius.

I think it's time F1 started to use biofuel too. More power and it'll keep the greenpeace activists away.

Bludd

04-May-2010, 18:44

05-May-2010, 00:11

Don't forget the carbon footprint for transporting them around the world.

Silent_Buddha

05-May-2010, 00:14

It's just an image and information issue. A 747 uses more fuel over a distance than the cars do in a year. Most of the carbon footprint of the teams come from electricity usage in their factories and wind tunnels.

Yes but would enough cars to carry that many people and that amount of luggage and mail packages (postal, fedex, UPS, etc) still use less fuel for the same distance? :D Oh and don't forget the refrigerated trucks to carry the food needed to feed those people. :D As well as at least one truck with the facilities to prepare the food for those people.

Always amusing to see fuel consumption comparisons when things aren't put into perspective.

Likewise in this case, with wondering if F1 engines in race form would last 20,000 - 100,000 miles with only basic maintenance.

Regards,
SB

Bludd

05-May-2010, 00:47

Yes but would enough cars to carry that many people and that amount of luggage and mail packages (postal, fedex, UPS, etc) still use less fuel for the same distance? :D Oh and don't forget the refrigerated trucks to carry the food needed to feed those people. :D As well as at least one truck with the facilities to prepare the food for those people.

Always amusing to see fuel consumption comparisons when things aren't put into perspective.

Likewise in this case, with wondering if F1 engines in race form would last 20,000 - 100,000 miles with only basic maintenance.

Regards,
SB
Are you seriously comparing the usefulness of a jet airliner to a sport? It's a given that F1 is not necessary. It's a sport, it's a luxury. That's not the point; the point is that F1 is not as polluting as it is perceived to be. Sports fishing, where millions upon millions of people drive out to rivers and lakes pollute much more than 24 F1 cars driving around a track. If F1 can, as they are trying to, have races with good public transportation, it will pollute even less.

Bludd

05-May-2010, 01:07

Ferrari allowed to make engine mods

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/83320

now a cynic would maybe say that Ferrari let the engines blow up so they would be able to modify them. As we know, their engine reliability in winter testing was superb and there was a concern about fuel consumption. Maybe they have rectified that now with these mods?

Bludd

05-May-2010, 16:52

Jersey City chickens out

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/83332

DJ12

06-May-2010, 12:58

Don't forget the carbon footprint for transporting them around the world.

In 747s lol

Dave Baumann

06-May-2010, 17:44

Bludd

07-May-2010, 00:17

Bludd

08-May-2010, 03:20

http://www.autosport.com/gallery/photo.php/id/13250086

New airbox design for Mercedes.

However, I'm curious as to how they did this. This year the chassis had to be homologated and the design submitted to the FIA to stay as is once it has passed the crash structure tests (Virgin had to request the FIA to update their chassis to actually accomodate the right sized fuel cell); the roll hoop is both part of the chassis and part of the crash structure as well.

Don't know if you saw this in the Friday press conference, Dave.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/83403

Q. Ross, you had quite a lot, I think. Longer wheelbases, different chassis, all sorts of things.
Ross BRAWN: Well, the bodywork change looks fairly dramatic. It is an improvement of course. It is not a huge improvement. Most of the big improvements come from the wings and the underside of the car. But it is how we conceived the car at the beginning and we had a bit of work we still wanted to do before we introduced the car as you see it now, so we went conventional for the first four races. Now we have got the system we always planned. Like everyone there are modifications to the other key bits, wings, diffuser, brake ducts and we have changed the wheelbase in order to give us more range, more weight distribution, although this is a circuit where I don't think rearward weight distribution is so attractive but it will be something we will want to use in some of the future races.

(...)

Q. (Frederic Ferret – L'Equipe) Ross, can you explain to us why you have changed the engine cover and you have two holes to cool the engine instead of one?
RB: It's the airbox, the intake for the induction system for the engine. Normally there's just one hole. We've got two because we've got a central structure for the roll hoop. It was done to improve the potential of the rear wing, so the system we have on some circuits where you need the maximum potential of the rear wing then we think it's a better system. That was the reason.

Bludd

08-May-2010, 20:11

The Red Bull is a ridiculously fast car. Webber is on pole, only man in the 1.19s. Vettel is right behind with Hamilton and Alonso on P3 and P4 respectively. Button, Schumi, Kubica, Rosberg, Massa and Kobayashi.

So, Schumi finally out-qualified Rosberg. I think Schumi is on the way back now.

I am very happy for Webber, but he has to be wary tomorrow. He cannot afford to let Vettel catch him and he has to race away. If Red Bull are unbeatable, I want Webber to win.

Anyway, here's hoping for a good race tomorrow though I think I am being overly optimistic. I hope Alonso can at least get on the podium.

RobertR1

08-May-2010, 22:50

Outside of rain, tomorrow's first 2 laps will determine the running order for the 10. The Red Bulls are in another league but can the last the race distance routinely?

Tahir2

09-May-2010, 16:17

Webber did it, Seb was hampered by brake problems again and Lewis Hamilton was out on the 64th lap with a tyre blow out of some sort. Possible debris on the rim as explained by Martin Whitmarsh. Alonso had an excellent drive and stayed out of trouble, finishing 2nd in the end.

Button frustrated by Schumacher for about 40 laps through the race but he did have technical issues with the car which hapemered his performance. It seems Mercedes may have sacrificed Rosberg for a car that suits Schumacher better. Will have to see how that plays out.

If Lewis Hamilton had finished 2nd he would be 2nd in the championship but as it stands he is 6th now. He seemed fairly diplomatic about the incident.

Even for a straight race it was a fairly exciting to watch about from Webber who wanted a boring race from his end and fortunately for him everything went his way and he cruised to an impressive victory. Even then the massive performance advantage in qualifying is not translating into utter dominance in the races for Red Bull, both Alonso and Hamilton seemed to keep up with Red Bull's pace and at the end of the race Hamilton managed to pull off the fastest lap just before retiring.

tongue_of_colicab

09-May-2010, 19:17

Well they managed to keep up, somewhat. But against 2 100% working RBR's and no mistakes by the team the Mclarens and Ferrari's don't stand a chance.

It seems Mercedes may have sacrificed Rosberg for a car that suits Schumacher better. Will have to see how that plays out.

I don't think that is really true. Both agreed that the updates that were done were needed as they both have a fairly similair driving style. Now ofcourse it could be that now the cars suits Schumacher much more he is capable of getting a lot more out of it but I don't think the team is building the car around Schumi on purpose. But ofcourse with the way Schumacher explains how he wants the car it's understandable if the cars goes more towards what he wants. Afterall designers have to work with the feedback drivers give and if somebody does a better job at that than the other the designers can hardly choose to ''gamble'' what the other might driver want when the other tells them exactly what he wants.

RobertR1

09-May-2010, 19:33

Vettel must be real hard on a car, like Kimi in the past, to have the issues he does more often than not. Great drive by Micheal to hold off Button for as long as he did. However, the Mercedes car needs a lot of help. I expect them to shift focus on next years car before the other front runners. They're too far behind to become competitive anytime soon.

itsmydamnation

09-May-2010, 23:00

i watched the live timings while watching the race. hammo wasn't that close to webber, when webber decided he needed to he would pull 0.5-0.8 secs a lap then he would slow down again. guess taking it easy because he could.

Bludd

10-May-2010, 02:50

Really happy to see Webber get a hat trick: pole, fastest lap and win.

I am happy for Alonso, well deserved good luck from the mistakes and bad luck of the past races.

It was a very tense race, not a classic, but Button fighting with Schumi was great and Alguersuari overtaking was also nice. Big congratulations for getting a point. Barrichello getting through from the back was also good. Kobayashi also showed some of that spirit from last year.

Did you see how the Sauber F-duct is activated? It is much lower than the Ferrari solution but it is not enough forward so they can't cover it with their legs. The Ferrari system is kinda weird, covering the hole with left hand, adjusting brake bias with right hand and steering with force of will.

Bring on Monaco!

Dave Baumann

10-May-2010, 05:00

Don't know if you saw this in the Friday press conference, Dave.
Looking back ar the original test images you see that the "roll blade" was always there, they just built the airbox inlet around it without it being structural, as opposed to other teams that create the rollhoop as part of the intake.

Vettel must be real hard on a car
I was in the US over the weekend and forced into watching the Speed coverage, however in this case they did notice something interesting in regards to Vettel's issues. Part of his speed loss relative to Webber was actually because his moveable front wing was broken early on. Speed spotted that it had stopped, and stayed, in the highest position it could, partially blocking the front brake duct. It seems that the brake issues may have bee due to insufficient cooling from the front wing issues.

Really happy to see Webber get a hat trick: pole, fastest lap and win.
Hamilton actually scored the fastest lap in the end.