View Full Version : Old Discussion Thread for all 3 motion controllers
Pages :
[
1]
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
I don't understand why Sony's waggle thing require a PSEye, does it not have any of the motion detection stuff built in?
For accurate 3d positioning with respect to camera.
Otherwise they can only detect tilt and acceleration.
tha_con
02-Jun-2009, 22:43
That's far different than than if someone released a touched up and enhanced video and presented it as actual gameplay that one would experience once the game was launched. BTW - not claiming anyone has done said thing.
Regards,
SB
No it's not. Not at all.
You're still being "sold" a product through these "proof of concepts". The fact that the hyperbole was so grand (especially in reference to the ridiculous Milo BS) only further illustrates that it's the same thing.
Again, gamers are getting their hopes up, but in the end, Natal will be about menu navigation and waggle w/out a controller, the other BS will probably see such limited application this generation, you might as well temper your expectations.
DrJay24
02-Jun-2009, 22:43
For accurate 3d positioning with respect to camera.
Otherwise they can only detect tilt and acceleration.
Wii does it with the bar on the TV?
Think of it as the Wii's sensor bar, something has to look at whats going on.
Strange
02-Jun-2009, 22:57
only wiimotes look at the sensor bars and the PSeye looks at the colored bars AND uses ultrasound to detect distance. Very clever and complete solution if you ask me.
This basically solves the biggest problems of motion sensing: Absolute positioning, and an absolute vector in regard to which direction you are pointing. (shown in the demo perfectly)
Combine that with precision, and you have something that can actually be playable not by detecting gestures but simply throwing vectors as an input into the game engine.
Another is that the wiimote does the calculating with the wii
The 360 needs a proprietory CPU to do the calculating
Whilst the PS3 has the SPU and this is percisely (routine calculations) one of the SPU's strengths.
Brad Grenz
02-Jun-2009, 23:02
Exactly. At the Ubisoft presser the Red Steel 2 guys made a big deal about their 1:1 mapping of the katana, but it was pretty obvious that wne away as soon as your swiping motion triggered an attack animation. I think at least part of that is an issue of limited processing power on the Wii.
bkilian
02-Jun-2009, 23:04
It's actually more convincing. I hope they combine the "Fish" tank demo here. You might want to cool down and think carefully. There are advantages for no controller, and there are advantages with a controller.Absolutely. However, for the MS solution to incorporate a controller is simple. In fact, grab a "Big Button Controller" and you're done. You can also use any simple object as a controller. Want a sword? Use a sword. Want a gun? Use a gun. Put an infrared LED on the front of the gun that turns on when you pull the trigger, and you have a fully functional controller.
For Sony to do the opposite, to track full body movements in 3D is essentially impossible with their current design.
Nothing about Natal struck me as a viable technology for gaming at this point. It'll be expensive, it's going to show up extremely late, and I'm not convinced that the technology is going to be ready for developers to really put it to good use around launch.Sources for this? No release date was mentioned by MS as far as I know, no price was mentioned, and developers were receiving their motion control Dev kits starting yesterday.
Oh, and it does not appear to have the severe lag of Natal. Natal may be useful for simple, hands free interaction with the system, but PSMC actually has far more demonstrated potential for fun games.I have not seen this "severe lag" you're talking about. Sources?
Wii does it with the bar on the TV?
Yes, but as Strange said it's Wii remote doing the reading there hence it needs to be pointed. On the plus side you can probably use another infrared source pair instead of the official bar.
edit:
In case of Sony tech, they may be using the size of the circle to calculate the distance instead of any sonic approach, which can help them to build the "controller" extremely cheap.
Can somebody point me a vid of sony motion sensing video?
Still waiting for proper feeds of the game demonstrated, gametrailer vids are really terrible imo.
Gamersyde has a better vid of uncharted which looks like the game of the show, waiting for even better footage.
GoW3 footage has seen this far are awful (gametrailer).
Pretty good show too but I'm clearly lacking more vids for now :(
Silent_Buddha
02-Jun-2009, 23:07
No it's not. Not at all.
You're still being "sold" a product through these "proof of concepts". The fact that the hyperbole was so grand (especially in reference to the ridiculous Milo BS) only further illustrates that it's the same thing.
Again, gamers are getting their hopes up, but in the end, Natal will be about menu navigation and waggle w/out a controller, the other BS will probably see such limited application this generation, you might as well temper your expectations.
Which still doesn't negate the fact that Natal has far more potential than either Nintendo's or PS3's currently announced plans.
Everything that MS announced with regards to Natal is certainly possible. As grandious as they may be, it's all still quite possible.
As with everything it'll depend on what dev's make of it. Considering there's been far more shown of the capabilities of the Natal versus the PS3 wands, I'll put the Natal as ahead in the potential department for now.
I'm supposing the PS3 wands were also using what basically amounts to a tech demo. So were they also "lying" with regards to that? As it may or may not ever show up in a game in that form?
Regards,
SB
Another is that the wiimote does the calculating with the wii
The 360 needs a proprietory CPU to do the calculating
Whilst the PS3 has the SPU and this is percisely (routine calculations) one of the SPU's strengths.
Do we have information on how the 360 solution works?
Perhaps the resources demanded from a proprietary CPU are few considering that they had it up and running on Burnout and worked considerably well
ShadowRunner
02-Jun-2009, 23:12
How is the pointer workin? The wii pointing ability is from having the camera in the controller.
only wiimotes look at the sensor bars and the PSeye looks at the colored bars AND uses ultrasound to detect distance. Very clever and complete solution if you ask me.
This basically solves the biggest problems of motion sensing: Absolute positioning, and an absolute vector in regard to which direction you are pointing. (shown in the demo perfectly)
Combine that with precision, and you have something that can actually be playable not by detecting gestures but simply throwing vectors as an input into the game engine.
Another is that the wiimote does the calculating with the wii
The 360 needs a proprietory CPU to do the calculating
Whilst the PS3 has the SPU and this is percisely (routine calculations) one of the SPU's strengths.
Natal's scope is bigger than PS3/Wii solution, of course it's gonna need more hp.
Maybe there should be a new topic for discussions on all three motion controllers (feel free to move my post).
As for Sony's, my first reaction was that it was simply a wand with a glowing ball, with colours to differentiate between wands and players. The size of the ball from PSEye's 2d perspective helps determine depth, as others have pointed out. The ball is a pretty elegant, if simple solution to those problems.
But if it were that simple, I could have one right now with a light bulb on a stick (except for the buttons). Or Sony could simply release a cheap strap-on for the DS3 immediately (which makes it look... interesting).
So there is credence to the presence of an ultrasonic component (apart from the fact that Sony already has a patent for it), adding to the fact that the PSEye also has a microphone already. It doesn't completely solve the problem when the wand goes out of sight (as a limb could for the Natal as well), but I imagine the PSEye can still approximate the position of the wand behind a body somewhat.
It is promising...
Absolutely. However, for the MS solution to incorporate a controller is simple. In fact, grab a "Big Button Controller" and you're done. You can also use any simple object as a controller. Want a sword? Use a sword. Want a gun? Use a gun. Put an infrared LED on the front of the gun that turns on when you pull the trigger, and you have a fully functional controller.
Yes I thought of using a self-chosen equipment to weigh the players' hands down. It may give the players more natural feel -- especially with their own equipments.
The 3DV system can certainly be complemented by an additional controller to sense angle, grip and button pressure. It needs to be of the right shape though (That's the problem I had with SIXAXIS + PSEye).
We'll also need to see how precise the motion sensing system is. So far, both Nintendo and Sony claimed 1-to-1 mapping. MS will need to claim it one way or another.
For Sony to do the opposite, to track full body movements in 3D is essentially impossible with their current design.
It depends on what you want to do.
Au4d5anfjnA
To demonstrate the difference clearly, Microsoft will need to come up with good applications for a full body 3D motion detection.
Brad Grenz
02-Jun-2009, 23:20
Which still doesn't negate the fact that Natal has far more potential than either Nintendo's or PS3's currently announced plans.
Everything that MS announced with regards to Natal is certainly possible. As grandious as they may be, it's all still quite possible.
Very little of what has been shown on Natal couldn't be accomplished with the PS Eye and a software update.
As with everything it'll depend on what dev's make of it. Considering there's been far more shown of the capabilities of the Natal versus the PS3 wands, I'll put the Natal as ahead in the potential department for now.
I'm supposing the PS3 wands were also using what basically amounts to a tech demo. So were they also "lying" with regards to that? As it may or may not ever show up in a game in that form?
Sony made no secret that they were tech demos using engineering prototypes. That said, Natal has actually shown, what, two kinds of gameplay? Breakout and painting? Oh, I guess they showed Burnout driving controls behind closed doors, but why wouldn't you just use a controller? There's not advantage to an invisible steering wheel. Sony showed FPS controls, RTS controls, Sword fighting controls, tennis/baseball controls, archery controls, extremely accurate painting controls, object stacking controls, flashlight controls... They've also demonstrated video overlay, including the ability to hold a virtual object. Maybe you're right, Natal is more potential right now, because it's all potential. PSMC is far more realized.
Strange
02-Jun-2009, 23:23
Which still doesn't negate the fact that Natal has far more potential than either Nintendo's or PS3's currently announced plans.
Everything that MS announced with regards to Natal is certainly possible. As grandious as they may be, it's all still quite possible.
As with everything it'll depend on what dev's make of it. Considering there's been far more shown of the capabilities of the Natal versus the PS3 wands, I'll put the Natal as ahead in the potential department for now.
I'm supposing the PS3 wands were also using what basically amounts to a tech demo. So were they also "lying" with regards to that? As it may or may not ever show up in a game in that form?
Regards,
SB
The Devil is in the details.
If you look closely, the natal has so many problems with it and limitations to which what games you can do that I don't want to even want to delve into what genres you can or cannot do. You are first limited to the area between the cameras, and also, you can't exactly move in the game unless you pick up a controller.
Motion sensing is further limited to the limbs and torso, and in the E3 conference, we have a complete black background (no lights to the audience), high contrast (with the spotlight on the girl) improving the motion sensing ability. This all gives the Natal a non-existant advantage on motion sensing when compared with the typical dark home (indoor lighting is generally very bad for cameras) or a complex background. Try using the motion sensing camera in a dark room when you are using a projector. I'll bet it will spell havoc, because havoc is what this situation has done to other motion sensors.
Having this terribly set up pre-existing situation and still having the lag and missed gestures, not a good sign to me.
as opposed to the Sony vibrate glow stick, it excels in precision, being real time, as well as being double handed (without restrictions like cables or different sensors on each hand). You can write with it, as they have shown.
Not to mention that it is actually a PROVEN CONCEPT, and it is even possible to port Wii games over for heaven's sake... There's no "axis" or "direction" that the wii can do that the PS3 thing cannot do. What's left is the button layouts.
As for the "throw in the vectors" statement, nothing shows that better than the whip they introduced at the beginning, as well as the shield and sword demo. Gesture recognition doesn't do that.
obonicus
02-Jun-2009, 23:29
Absolutely. However, for the MS solution to incorporate a controller is simple. In fact, grab a "Big Button Controller" and you're done. You can also use any simple object as a controller. Want a sword? Use a sword. Want a gun? Use a gun. Put an infrared LED on the front of the gun that turns on when you pull the trigger, and you have a fully functional controller.
For Sony to do the opposite, to track full body movements in 3D is essentially impossible with their current design.
Sources for this? No release date was mentioned by MS as far as I know, no price was mentioned, and developers were receiving their motion control Dev kits starting yesterday.
I have not seen this "severe lag" you're talking about. Sources?
We probably should avoid making any claims about what the Natal (and Motion+ and whatever Sony's wand's name is) can or can't do until the hardware is in the userbase's hands. We can't count on an incisive look at any of these control schemes by the media.
It's my understanding from the tech video a year or so ago that the wands could actually be anything. Obviously Sony would want you to buy their own hence when it's released you will have to buy them but there is nothing special about them as far as I know.
Absolutely. However, for the MS solution to incorporate a controller is simple. In fact, grab a "Big Button Controller" and you're done. You can also use any simple object as a controller. Want a sword? Use a sword. Want a gun? Use a gun. Put an infrared LED on the front of the gun that turns on when you pull the trigger, and you have a fully functional controller.
Kinda defeats the purpose of a "controllerless" controller. It seems that the Natal needs a waggle after all. Without one, how would u walk forward in a virtually long corridor? How would you shoot a gun? How would you switch weapons (without the prospect of a new peripheral for each weapon type)? I don't think the reverse is necessarily as simple for the Natal either :)
MS' "motion controller" is the gamer themself.
Yes I thought of using a self-chosen equipment to weigh the players' hands down. It may give the players more natural feel -- especially with their own equipments.
The 3DV system can certainly be complemented by an additional controller to sense angle, grip and button pressure. It needs to be of the right shape though (That's the problem I had with SIXAXIS + PSEye).
We'll also need to see how precise the motion sensing system is. So far, both Nintendo and Sony claimed 1-to-1 mapping. MS will need to claim it one way or another.
It depends on what you want to do.
Au4d5anfjnA
To demonstrate the difference clearly, Microsoft will need to come up with good applications for a full body 3D motion detection.
What game is that?
Strange
02-Jun-2009, 23:36
here's the motion sensing demo from Sony's keynote
50276
50277
Brad Grenz
02-Jun-2009, 23:36
It's my understanding from the tech video a year or so ago that the wands could actually be anything. Obviously Sony would want you to buy their own hence when it's released you will have to buy them but there is nothing special about them as far as I know.
Other than that they are bluetooth devices filled with accelerometers and gyroscopes?
OK gametrialer has the thing up, the thing looks damned accurate but I would like to learn more about it works no supposition. The thing doesn't seem anymore advance than Ms solution, both product could almost be launched head to head. Actually MS solution looked more refined as they demoed it for really behind closed doors on existing games and with various demo (think ricochet I don't care for molnieux overmade stuffs... he got on my nerves always speaking too big...).
Something is clear from those both early presentations Ms looks more on the way to real casual (sport party games) than Sony.
DrJay24
02-Jun-2009, 23:52
I don't see any ad-on device making a big slash unless it has some huge killer app to drive its sales. Both Sony and MS are frantically trying to capture the Wii craze, but I think it's too late this gen. They should have refined their technologies and launched them in the box for next gen.
The Wii's waggle only works because it is in every Wii box with a game that drives sales. Since every Wii owner has one the devs can rely on it, unlike an ad-on with a low attach rate.
Did you confused threads? things are getting airy :lol: (no pun intended ;) )
joker454
02-Jun-2009, 23:54
Maybe I didn't watch the same videos as you guys, but from what I saw Natal can ultimately do whatever PS3MC can do, except that holding stuff is optional. So if you want to hold a sword or a three pound salmon while attacking someone then you can, or you can hold nothing. PS3MC requires that you hold their controller for it to figure out positional data. Is this accurate? Further, it seems like Natal tracks multiple limbs, so to do the same on PS3MC, wouldn't you need to hold two controllers, and have two attached to your legs?
I don't see any ad-on device making a big slash unless it has some huge killer app to drive its sales. Both Sony and MS are frantically trying to capture the Wii craze, but I think it's too late this gen. They should have refined their technologies and launched them in the box for next gen.
The Wii's waggle only works because it is in every Wii box with a game that drives sales. Since every Wii owner has one the devs can rely on it, unlike an ad-on with a low attach rate.
I don't really think Natal will be truly ready, refined and cost efficient until next gen
Other than that they are bluetooth devices filled with accelerometers and gyroscopes?
Must of missed the part them mentioned that.
Obviously there is bluetooth in it as it has buttons and the PS3 uses bluetooth for controllers.
I was trying to find the original video from the company Sony aquired but I cannot remember what they are called, anyway I found a video from last years GDC showing an earlier version of the software.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80VWGjWYWd4
Scott_Arm
02-Jun-2009, 23:54
I don't see any ad-on device making a big slash unless it has some huge killer app to drive its sales. Both Sony and MS are frantically trying to capture the Wii craze, but I think it's too late this gen. They should have refined their technologies and launched them in the box for next gen.
The Wii's waggle only works because it is in every Wii box with a game that drives sales. Since every Wii owner has one the devs can rely on it, unlike an ad-on with a low attach rate.
agreed. the only way either will really be able to drive sales of these things is by making sure a big chunk of their first party titles are compatible, but there's no way this is making it into any of the announced titles by either company.
Natal's scope is bigger than PS3/Wii solution, of course it's gonna need more hp.
The problem with Natal is that simple tasks are very complex to do, sometimes even impossible.
You get awesome depth recognition, yet you cannot even point on screen.
IIRC, Zcam depth resolution was around 1.5cm which is orders of magnitude higher than what you would need to get an accurate direction of a simplistic stick like object from a few meters away.
Needless to say you have to not be pointing in the direction of the camera. :)
Still body motion recognition can have great potential, the question is whether MS can develop totally innovative software that can completely reinvent how we interact with what is essentially a stationary rectangular screen in time before virtual reality takes off, removing the stationary screen problem.
DrJay24
02-Jun-2009, 23:57
Maybe I didn't watch the same videos as you guys, but from what I saw Natal can ultimately do whatever PS3MC can do, except that holding stuff is optional. So if you want to hold a sword or a three pound salmon while attacking someone then you can, or you can hold nothing. PS3MC requires that you hold their controller for it to figure out positional data. Is this accurate? Further, it seems like Natal tracks multiple limbs, so to do the same on PS3MC, wouldn't you need to hold two controllers, and have two attached to your legs?
Assuming you believe the device can reliably and accurately make out where you, your arms and your hands are and where they are going and at what rate. I have my doubts, but if you just want to register kicks or hand waves then it will do fine.
Maybe I didn't watch the same videos as you guys, but from what I saw Natal can ultimately do whatever PS3MC can do,
no.
Strange
03-Jun-2009, 00:03
please tell me how to play a FPS game with Natal
Maybe I didn't watch the same videos as you guys, but from what I saw Natal can ultimately do whatever PS3MC can do, except that holding stuff is optional.
Without another accessory, Natal cannot ultimately do whatever PS3MC can do.
Scott_Arm
03-Jun-2009, 00:07
I think Natal and and the PS3 motion controller will be used for very different kinds of games. I think in more traditional games, Natal will be used for voice recognition and facial recognition rather than having Natal replace the standard controller. The Wiimote and PS3 motion controller are obviously meant as a replacement for the standard controller. There are definitely limitations to how Natal can be used, but the potential for accurate representation of full body movement could lead to some interesting. In the end, that's what this is going to come down to. Either one could be the "best" technical solution, but still end up with the shittiest software.
One thing to note about the lag in the Natal demo is whether the guy doing the paint demo has lag on the small screen he's viewing, or whether its the product of switching the signal over to the large screen.
Edit: It would be nice if Natal were bundled with some type of controller that could be used as a pointer as well as provide some buttons, because I'd like to see it usable for a game like an fps, but I don't think Natal looks like it was ever intended to be used in that capacity.
no.
???
Do we even see d pad or something on Sony prototype that would allow you to move in game? If needed that would be that tough for MS to split the 360 controler in two?
As for selection a finger could do there no need for ubber precision just making big enough movements, it's not like they state the tech can track my finger while I try to play a random malmsteen licks.
mrcorbo
03-Jun-2009, 00:08
Nobody has mentioned the lack of integration as a problem with Sony's design. Think of the different scenarios that have to be accounted for by a multi-part system like that. Create one package which includes a PSEYE, and one or more wand controllers? Sell the wand controllers and PSEYE seperately? Both? Allow games to require 1 or 2 wand controllers to operate? I can see this creating customer confusion as to what hardware they need to actually make this work and that could blunt it's appeal irrespective of how well the system works or how good the games are that take advantage of it.
Strange
03-Jun-2009, 00:10
One thing to note about the lag in the Natal demo is whether the guy doing the paint demo has lag on the small screen he's viewing, or whether its the product of switching the signal over to the large screen.
in anycase that's a true demonstration of a lack of sophisticatedness.
Everyone in the community knows that lag time matters.
You'd think they would try to use virtually no-lag signals and displays.
joker454
03-Jun-2009, 00:10
please tell me how to play a FPS game with Natal
I know all about PS3MC, a bunch of friends have been working on it for ages, but I know little to nothing about Natal aside from the video today. But if it can detect where limbs are and depth as well, then it should be adaptable to all types of games including fps. In other words, if it can position your hands in three space, then you should be able to do just about anything with it. It may be dependent on software support for that, but that's Microsoft strong suit anyways.
Without another accessory, Natal cannot ultimately do whatever PS3MC can do.
PS3MC consist in two pieces, eye toy + nunchuck like stuff.
Between I'm not sure the tech is intended for fps, what Ms showed was clearly aimed to super casual audience, the kind who usually is happy enough with monoploy.
Strange
03-Jun-2009, 00:11
Nobody has mentioned the lack of integration as a problem with Sony's design. Think of the different scenarios that have to be accounted for by a multi-part system like that. Create one package which includes a PSEYE, and one or more wand controllers? Sell the wand controllers and PSEYE seperately? Both? Allow games to require 1 or 2 wand controllers to operate? I can see this creating customer confusion as to what hardware they need to actually make this work and that could blunt it's appeal irrespective of how well the system works or how good the games are that take advantage of it.
Eye of Judgement seemed like a good bundle that told the user what you need.
Besides, wouldn't that be the same for the new motion plus for wii?
I don't really think Natal will be truly ready, refined and cost efficient until next gen
It clearly depend on what kind of hardware the thing include and the porcessing power needed to run the proprietary software. We're kind of let in the dark so far.
Strange
03-Jun-2009, 00:13
I know all about PS3MC, a bunch of friends have been working on it for ages, but I know little to nothing about Natal aside from the video today. But if it can detect where limbs are and depth as well, then it should be adaptable to all types of games including fps. In other words, if it can position your hands in three space, then you should be able to do just about anything with it. It may be dependent on software support for that, but that's Microsoft strong suit anyways.
Come on, with that amount of lag? and how are you going to pull the trigger? don't get me started on the precision Natal has.....
Chandler55
03-Jun-2009, 00:14
ok i dont know about you guys but this natal stuff seems over the top, I look at the field of vision computing and they cant even track a persons face without great lighting conditions and perfect calibration. it reminds me a lot from speech-to-text algorithms, where you're trying to make something out of a lot of noise, and speech-to-text took a dozen years and it still isn't perfect.
mapping pixels to a 3d model, I dont know man :???: at the very least you could do what eyetoy is doing , and maybe with more precision, but isnt there lag as well in most cameras
???
Do we even see d pad or something on Sony prototype that would allow you to move in game? If needed that would be that tough for MS to split the 360 controler in two?
As for selection a finger could do there no need for ubber precision just making big enough movements, it's not like they state the tech can track my finger while I try to play a random malmsteen licks.
The concept of the PS3 motion controller does allow for a d-pad implementation.
That is something missing from Natal on the other hand since it does not require any tangible object that can have a d-pad unless there is some kind of other solution we did not think about or the player holds something. The latter defeats the purpose of Natal.
PS3MC consist in two pieces, eye toy + nunchuck like stuff.
Between I'm not sure the tech is intended for fps, what Ms showed was clearly aimed to super casual audience, the kind who usually is happy enough with monoploy.
Indeed, as it stands (without additional "pieces"), Natal is for casual, and casual only.
Scott_Arm
03-Jun-2009, 00:17
Nobody has mentioned the lack of integration as a problem with Sony's design. Think of the different scenarios that have to be accounted for by a multi-part system like that. Create one package which includes a PSEYE, and one or more wand controllers? Sell the wand controllers and PSEYE seperately? Both? Allow games to require 1 or 2 wand controllers to operate? I can see this creating customer confusion as to what hardware they need to actually make this work and that could blunt it's appeal irrespective of how well the system works or how good the games are that take advantage of it.
I think the controller will end up being something like the rumored split Dualshock. Bundle one controller with the PS eye. The package should be simple enough.
Scott_Arm
03-Jun-2009, 00:20
Come on, with that amount of lag? and how are you going to pull the trigger? don't get me started on the precision Natal has.....
I can see the limitations of not having buttons, but until people actually play it comments about precision and lag are just guesswork.
Naboomagnoli
03-Jun-2009, 00:21
Natal doesn't look suited to pointing (or moving from point A to point B without a controller) at all, and there is a considerable lag in the b-roll videos knocking about on Youtube which would seem to compound this issue. Obviously (as has been said), time will tell whether this is or isn't the case; however I think people who are trying to pitch Natal against PS3MC are missing the point. The PS3MC is meant to be a precision instrument; Natal is meant to be more about increasing personal involvement. They are intended to be used in different ways, and should play to their strengths rather than to that of their rivals.
Incidentally, what does everyone make of the voice recognition? It's certainly cool, but it doesn't seem like something the PSEye can't do does it? I played EndWar using my PSEye to pick up my voice with no problems at all. Natal implies the recognition is done within the Natal's own processing system, whereas the PSEye would rely on software. Is that the only difference, or is there more to it?
TheChefO
03-Jun-2009, 00:21
what Ms showed was clearly aimed to super casual audience, the kind who usually is happy enough with monoploy.
Exactly.
Wii has been doing a great job with it, but if grandma doesn't even need to press a button or hold anything (arthritis etc), then this will have even more room to grow.
Also, not having to point at the screen will help.
I see this Natal thing as so different from xb360's core market, that it really should be a separate platform.
ShadowRunner
03-Jun-2009, 00:22
As long as there are hardcore games available fo both the new devices ill be happy.
I dont want casual games not my cup of tea.
What game is that?
EyeToy for PS2.
Indeed, as it stands (without additional "pieces"), Natal is for casual, and casual only.
Other way you can consider as a complete product but I agree intended to casual audience.
Basically you buy the thing and you can play with your friends or your family.
Not to mention that it is actually a PROVEN CONCEPT
I wouldn't pay too much attention to this point. The Wiimote was not a proven concept when it was released, and it paid dividends in being suitably different.
Implementing something which, to the average user, is nothing but a clone of what Nintendo has done can be spun either as a "proven concept" as well as a "copycat". Depends on the angle you want to go for...
FWIW, all 3 companies are using "proven concepts" because they are demonstrably valid in the real world. This isn't theory, there is hardware out there for all the consoles for this to work with.
The problem with Natal is that simple tasks are very complex to do, sometimes even impossible.
You get awesome depth recognition, yet you cannot even point on screen.
Where did you get this assessment? The simplest tasks are prob scrolling and entering which were shown on stage live to be not a problem.
I don't see any ad-on device making a big slash unless it has some huge killer app to drive its sales. Both Sony and MS are frantically trying to capture the Wii craze, but I think it's too late this gen. They should have refined their technologies and launched them in the box for next gen.
The Wii's waggle only works because it is in every Wii box with a game that drives sales. Since every Wii owner has one the devs can rely on it, unlike an ad-on with a low attach rate.
Yes, the marketing part is most definitely crucial.
One thing unknown is whether the PS3 waggle prototype will become a "transformer" DualShock controller, and replace SIXAXIS/DS3 altogether in the future.
obonicus
03-Jun-2009, 00:29
I know all about PS3MC, a bunch of friends have been working on it for ages, but I know little to nothing about Natal aside from the video today. But if it can detect where limbs are and depth as well, then it should be adaptable to all types of games including fps. In other words, if it can position your hands in three space, then you should be able to do just about anything with it. It may be dependent on software support for that, but that's Microsoft strong suit anyways.
The Natal still needs some sort of pointer equivalent. I'm guessing that by the pen demo, the PS3Wand (ew) has some functional equivalent.
???
Do we even see d pad or something on Sony prototype that would allow you to move in game?
While interesting question, how is that even related?
If needed that would be that tough for MS to split the 360 controler in two?
You totally lost me here
As for selection a finger could do there no need for ubber precision just making big enough movements, it's not like they state the tech can track my finger while I try to play a random malmsteen licks.
Once again, whether MS was truthful or open has nothing to do with simple tasks Natal cannot perform.
In any case if Natal could detect "selection" even at very low precision, they would demo NXE properly instead of that totally lame hand gesture recognition which is much more inefficient than good old dpad even for my grandfather.
More importantly, ~1cm depth resolution from 5m says you can not point a 5 cm stick within ~ meters accuracy. How big is your TV? :)
I know all about PS3MC, a bunch of friends have been working on it for ages, but I know little to nothing about Natal aside from the video today. But if it can detect where limbs are and depth as well, then it should be adaptable to all types of games including fps. In other words, if it can position your hands in three space, then you should be able to do just about anything with it. It may be dependent on software support for that, but that's Microsoft strong suit anyways.
Not to mention that Natal doesn't need to replace existing controllers and be the only one, unlike the glowstick solution.
Other peripherals can be held in the hands for games that need it.
Consider other possible solutions, like head tracking (turn your head to turn the camera in a FPS) while holding a traditional 360 controller. Or have another kind of game where the player stands up using the controller and could use their legs to control something (eg, a football).
DrJay24
03-Jun-2009, 00:30
So turn your head and now not see the action on screen? How about turn around to see the traffic behind me? :)
Other way you can consider as a complete product but I agree intended to casual audience.
Basically you buy the thing and you can play with your friends or your family.
True, what is considered "complete" is up to the buyer. As has been mentioned though, it is quite easy for Sony to bundle a "complete" solution that includes the eye and a couple of waggles. Simple.
TheChefO
03-Jun-2009, 00:30
Natal doesn't look suited to pointing (or moving from point A to point B without a controller) at all, and there is a considerable lag in the b-roll videos knocking about on Youtube which would seem to compound this issue. Obviously (as has been said), time will tell whether this is or isn't the case; however I think people who are trying to pitch Natal against PS3MC are missing the point. The PS3MC is meant to be a precision instrument; Natal is meant to be more about increasing personal involvement. They are intended to be used in different ways, and should play to their strengths rather than to that of their rivals.
Incidentally, what does everyone make of the voice recognition? It's certainly cool, but it doesn't seem like something the PSEye can't do does it? I played EndWar using my PSEye to pick up my voice with no problems at all. Natal implies the recognition is done within the Natal's own processing system, whereas the PSEye would rely on software. Is that the only difference, or is there more to it?
The precision on ps3mc is awesome. IMO, this precision plays into the hands of existing gamers. Using it as an aiming tool or mouse replacement.
MS' system is setup to capture the non-gamer that Nintendo has been milking for the past few years. But it goes even further. No need to hold anything or know what button does what or where the buttons are.
MS has a good grip on the "super casual" market. I'm not sure what more could be done in this realm aside from further advancements in reduced lag and higher resolution.
Sony's system on the other hand is more an accessory to the core gamer's arsenal. I think others have a good point though wrt how it fits in the bigger picture.
Price is also working against Sony picking up this market.
If people aren't or weren't all that interested in gaming, but played with mocon somewhere and thought it might be fun, they will likely pickup the cheaper option(s).
joker454
03-Jun-2009, 00:31
Come on, with that amount of lag? and how are you going to pull the trigger? don't get me started on the precision Natal has.....
I don't judge lag on tech demos any more than I judge frame drops, bugs and crashes on software betas. Works in progress always have issues. E3 usually involves two weeks of no sleep for developers as they struggle to get demos ready for show, there are always issues. The tweaking will come later. The main goal at E3 is proof of concept. However, it stands to reason that it would be silly for Microsoft to release a motion controller that lags behind the users motion.
Exactly.
Wii has been doing a great job with it, but if grandma doesn't even need to press a button or hold anything (arthritis etc), then this will have even more room to grow.
Also, not having to point at the screen will help.
I see this Natal thing as so different from xb360's core market, that it really should be a separate platform.
I think they are missing Natal point too, bring even more people (than the wii) to videogames.
Between I wouldn't be surprised to see a spamming of various accessories to match player desires or specific game requirement. Nintendo showed that it works if done properly.
Between to which point Sony is closer to release than Ms is questionable, hand free navigation may not need Z values, it looks like Ms whatever the hard is have made some break through in regard to the underlying software.
Natal doesn't look suited to pointing (or moving from point A to point B without a controller) at all
Use your imagination a bit. I think it could easily be done.
Have a user stick out their arm and use that as a relative pointer, like how the Wii's pointer works today...done.
and there is a considerable lag in the b-roll videos knocking about on Youtube which would seem to compound this issue.
I see the lag too. I have to imagine as they get closer to release they'll be optimizing the hell out of the algorithms used for detection and/or even have some kind of ASIC for it (or at least a co-processor embedded in the bar?).
They do need to improve it a bit to be practical for anything but the more casual games, but all signs point to this being out in Fall 2010 so they've got time.
Not to mention that Natal doesn't need to replace existing controllers and be the only one, unlike the glowstick solution.
The waggle prototype doesn't necessarily replace existing controllers too. It would be good if it replaces DS3. That would mean it's cheap enough to be in every PS3.
Other peripherals can be held in the hands for games that need it.
Consider other possible solutions, like head tracking (turn your head to turn the camera in a FPS) while holding a traditional 360 controller. Or have another kind of game where the player stands up using the controller and could use their legs to control something (eg, a football).
Head and leg tracking don't always require 3D and is already doable today with PSEye (actually 5 years ago with EyeToy; although it's more accurate and faster now)
I wouldn't pay too much attention to this point. The Wiimote was not a proven concept when it was released, and it paid dividends in being suitably different.
Implementing something which, to the average user, is nothing but a clone of what Nintendo has done can be spun either as a "proven concept" as well as a "copycat". Depends on the angle you want to go for...
FWIW, all 3 companies are using "proven concepts" because they are demonstrably valid in the real world. This isn't theory, there is hardware out there for all the consoles for this to work with.
But wouldn't you agree that for gaming applications, the wiimote is the one that has been proven far and beyond expectations? And it would seem that the PSMC is closer to it than Natal is, in terms of technology and execution?
So turn your head and now not see the action on screen? How about turn around to see the traffic behind me? :)
Are your eyeballs fixed directly forward? I'm talking about a slight tilt to either side.
The waggle prototype doesn't necessarily replace existing controllers too. It would be good if it replaces DS3. That would mean it's cheap enough to be in every PS3.
Head and leg tracking don't always require 3D and is already doable today with PSEye (actually 5 years ago with EyeToy; although it's more accurate and faster now)
I have to admit it keeps bothering me that people (not just you, but Sony themselves) keep talking about the EyeToy as the "original motion controller". Intel bundled motion controlled games starting in 1999 with their webcams, and I played them...
Head tracking, yes. Foot tracking, no, not reliably...not if you're doing it in 3D.
DrJay24
03-Jun-2009, 00:39
Are your eyeballs fixed directly forward? I'm talking about a slight tilt to either side.
So how does the software tell the difference between an intentional glance back and just a small unintentional movement of your head? This is the inherent problem with motion tracking via camera IMO. Gross motor functions are easy, everything else is a headache (no pun intended).
But wouldn't you agree that for gaming applications, the wiimote is the one that has been proven far and beyond expectations? And it would seem that the PSMC is closer to it than Natal is, in terms of technology and execution?
I think the limits of motion control being limited to moving an object in the air have already shown themselves on the Wii.
Price is also working against Sony picking up this market.
If people aren't or weren't all that interested in gaming, but played with mocon somewhere and thought it might be fun, they will likely pickup the cheaper option(s).
After buying the consoles and the necessary parts, they would probably end up being about the same, really. That is, both will be equally prohibitive to the casual gamer who just wants a bit of mocon.
So how does the software tell the difference between an intentional glance back and just a small unintentional movement of your head? This is the inherent problem with motion tracking via camera IMO. Gross motor functions are easy, everything else is a headache (no pun intended).
The same way the software tells when you move your hand to grab a drink while holding a Wiimote or Glowstick. ;)
I think the limits of motion control being limited to moving an object in the air have already shown themselves on the Wii.
Yet they have been incredibly successful. Proven concept, no? Which was Strange's original point.
I have to admit it keeps bothering me that people (not just you, but Sony themselves) keep talking about the EyeToy as the "original motion controller". Intel bundled motion controlled games starting in 1999 with their webcams, and I played them...
They popularized it for consoles. What can you do ? I didn't claim EyeToy is original. Intel may get the idea from someone else as well. It's an intuitive and simple idea but Sony invested and marketed it.
Head tracking, yes. Foot tracking, no, not reliably...not if you're doing it in 3D.
Foot tracking was shown in the video I linked to. If people need accurate 3D leg tracking, then they will have to use the 3DV camera (or equivalent) but somehow I doubt it's important. Accurate hand tracking is much more important.
The same way the software tells when you move your hand to grab a drink while holding a Wiimote or Glowstick. ;)
Except you wouldn't necessarily grab a drink with the hand that still has a glowstick in it, lol.
While interesting question, how is that even related?
You totally lost me here
I was may be unclear. My point is that d-pad stick wasn't shown/used during the presentation and that it could not be there, it will be there thus. Ms if needed could for some games (depending on they decide to stick to super casual games or not) simply split a 360 controler "nun chuck style" without having to include any extra tech in this new controler.
Once again, whether MS was truthful or open has nothing to do with simple tasks Natal cannot perform.
In any case if Natal could detect "selection" even at very low precision, they would demo NXE properly instead of that totally lame hand gesture recognition which is much more inefficient than good old dpad even for my grandfather.
More importantly, ~1cm depth resolution from 5m says you can not point a 5 cm stick within ~ meters accuracy. How big is your TV? :)You don't get my point if you're to select units in say a RTS actually the Z value doesn't need to be accurate. The device could track your right hand (say with the forefinger sticking out for the example) movement in a 2D plane (X and Y) that would move a pointer/reticule on the screen / for selection you could either validate with a left hand gesture (say you draw a circle in a 2D space in there are 10 units) or for a single unit make a "click " movement with the right hand (not moving the finger but the whole arm say 10cm trust at least).
Yet they have been incredibly successful. Proven concept, no? Which was Strange's original point.
They were successful based on the premise of originality and motion control.
Making a me-too accessory that does largely the exact same thing will not make it a success. The limited motion-controlling market is already close to reaching saturation (look at the massive drop in Wii sales in recent months, vs other consoles). Launching a product that does the same thing after the Wii already took those consumers is not a guaranteed recipe for success.
Except you wouldn't necessarily grab a drink with the hand that still has a glowstick in it, lol.
But you have glowsticks in both hands sometimes. :)
They popularized it for consoles.
Uh....I strongly disagree that EyeToy games were popular.
TheChefO
03-Jun-2009, 00:53
After buying the consoles and the necessary parts, they would probably end up being about the same, really. That is, both will be equally prohibitive to the casual gamer who just wants a bit of mocon.
??
Wii is $250
Ps3 = $400 + eyetoy + ps3mc
Are your eyeballs fixed directly forward? I'm talking about a slight tilt to either side.
This is what you said - "Consider other possible solutions, like head tracking (turn your head to turn the camera in a FPS)". Doesn't sound like just tilting slightly. The absurdity of turning your head in front of a fixed display (your TV) remains.
??
Wii is $250
Ps3 = $400 + eyetoy + ps3mc
Well, i thought you said they would pick a 360 mocon solution over a PS3 because of price. Perhaps I misunderstood you. Sorry
Uh....I strongly disagree that EyeToy games were popular.
It sold over 1 million units in the first 4 months in Europe (2003), 2.5 million in 7 months. Definitely more now worldwide. :)
I have casual friends as far as Asia who play EyeToy too.
EDIT: Oops. wrong year !
TheChefO
03-Jun-2009, 00:56
Launching a product that does the same thing after the Wii already took those consumers is not a guaranteed recipe for success.
Exactly.
It either has to out do the Wii at it's own game, or add something the Wii can't do. (av etc)
You don't get my point if you're to select units in say a RTS actually the Z value doesn't need to be accurate. The device could track your left hand (say with the forefinger sticking out for the example) movement in a 2D plane (X and Y) that would move a pointer/reticule on the screen / for selection you could either validate with a right hand gesture (say you draw a circle in a 2D space in there are 10 units) or for a single unit make a "click " movement with the right hand (not moving the finger but the whole arm say 10cm trust at least).
Maybe i'm not understanding you correctly, but if the Z value does not need to be accurate, you are pretty much looking at a standalone PSEye (zero Z value accuracy LOL). Why do u need Natal for that?
TheChefO
03-Jun-2009, 01:01
Well, i thought you said they would pick a 360 mocon solution over a PS3 because of price. Perhaps I misunderstood you. Sorry
Well, I said other options.
The xb alternative is
$200 + Natal ($100-$200)
vs
$400 + eyetoy + ps3mc (+ additional waggles)
Either way it is significantly cheaper and thus more likely successful to capture the casual gamer for either MS or N.
I think Sony will have to figure out a way to make this system something that core gamers can buy into. Something that will benefit their games.
FPS' etc.
I could see this thing being awesome with GoW3.
A Wii sports type venture wouldn't go over so well with that price tag...
joker454
03-Jun-2009, 01:02
Foot tracking was shown in the video I linked to. If people need accurate 3D leg tracking, then they will have to use the 3DV camera (or equivalent) but somehow I doubt it's important. Accurate hand tracking is much more important.
Foot tracking is real important also. Think beyond fps games, etc, and instead picture stuff that the average casual person would like. For example, a product that teaches yoga or tai chi, and uses Natal to watch your limbs to critique/comment on your form. Or maybe a Karate School product that has a virtual teacher that comments on your moves, again based on limb tracking. Maybe a product that teaches juggling, and it watches how you do it and makes suggestions to improve it. Or maybe a personal trainer program that can watch how you use free weights or doing common exercises, and comments if your form is correct. Who knows what people will think of or what is possible.
I must be set in my ways because outside of non gaming use or games with simplistic mechanics, I see very little use for this type of tech especially in core games.
I can't see how future titles like AC2, UC2, MGS:R, GT5, COD:MW2 or FF13 could make liberal use of either what MS or Sony has to offer with motion detecting cameras. I doubt any advantages or disadvantage of either tech will be readily noticeable because I doubt you'll see MS or Sony employ use outside of some trivial gameplay mechanics with emphasis on what either does best.
Now voice recognition is another matter, because it can literally expand beyond the limitations of current controller design without requiring much from the gamers in terms of effort like motion detection. Pausing a game, switching to secondary weapons or grenades, bringing up a menu, picking up an object or activating a device with a simple word will have more profound effect on actual core gaming than gestures or 1:1 mapping of movement.
Exactly.
It either has to out do the Wii at it's own game, or add something the Wii can't do. (av etc)
I am glad MS and Sony jump into the motion sensing pool. It will help further innovation in another important area that is different from graphics.
As for differentiating from Wii, it's in the software. The drawing-come-to-life thing is one example. A more accurate, faster motion sensing is just a better mouse trap, unlikely to help.
But you have glowsticks in both hands sometimes. :)
Yes :) in which case you wouldn't be able to pick up a drink at all. But I can't imagine what would stop a person from moving his head slightly from time to time out of natural impulse.
Foot tracking is real important also. Think beyond fps games, etc, and instead picture stuff that the average casual person would like. For example, a product that teaches yoga or tai chi, and uses Natal to watch your limbs to critique/comment on your form. Or maybe a Karate School product that has a virtual teacher that comments on your moves, again based on limb tracking. Maybe a product that teaches juggling, and it watches how you do it and makes suggestions to improve it. Or maybe a personal trainer program that can watch how you use free weights or doing common exercises, and comments if your form is correct. Who knows what people will think of or what is possible.
For those examples, PS Eye may still be helpful.
Remember, the 3DV camera cannot see behind you. It won't be accurate for certain Yoga moves too if it's blocked by your own body. Like 3D rendering, 3D full body motion sensing is an approximation. As for Karate chop, how fast can 3DV track ? Those guys move very fast. The faster the better. At this moment, MS didn't claim one-to-one true mapping for regular movement (If it's not 1-to-1 yet, my guess is they will have to work their *ss off to make it happen somehow by year end).
EDIT:
The 3DV camera works best in poor lighting condition. So it should shine in those application areas (e.g., controlling home theater hands free)
Naboomagnoli
03-Jun-2009, 01:11
Use your imagination a bit. I think it could easily be done.
Have a user stick out their arm and use that as a relative pointer, like how the Wii's pointer works today...done.
I did, and ruled that out almost immediately. You might as well point with your elbow. Besides, have you ever done that warm-up excercise where you move your fully extended arms in decreasing and increasing circular motions? You wouldn't last 5 minutes.
Now, I was going to let them pass, but purely out of a fickle sense of spite at the bold(;)), I'd point out that your tilting the head to control the camera would never work or be allowed in a game, let alone in favour of the right stick. That'd be like trying to aim using the Sixaxis tilt. Grenades would work well I'd have thought too, and being able to look around corners by tilting your body would suit sitting in a seat as well as standing up. You're far more likely to see the game use your head movements subtly to give a sense of depth to the onscreen image.
Similarly using your feet to control a football in a serious sim would be simply awful. Fair enough for a party game or something casual, but never in FIFA or PES. At a push I'd say free throws in basketball would be better suited, but it's still hard to tell without knowing what the accuracy you can get from throwing would be like compared to real life.
Exactly.
It either has to out do the Wii at it's own game, or add something the Wii can't do. (av etc)
That would be apply the controls to AA-AAA third party games, hopefully :P
This is what you said - "Consider other possible solutions, like head tracking (turn your head to turn the camera in a FPS)". Doesn't sound like just tilting slightly. The absurdity of turning your head in front of a fixed display (your TV) remains.
Perhaps "tilt" would be more accurate, but I thought it'd infer tilting to the side.
Slight turning of the head to indicate which direction to turn in the game is not absurd. It's practical, it frees up a thumb and is intuitive.
They were successful based on the premise of originality and motion control.
Making a me-too accessory that does largely the exact same thing will not make it a success. The limited motion-controlling market is already close to reaching saturation (look at the massive drop in Wii sales in recent months, vs other consoles). Launching a product that does the same thing after the Wii already took those consumers is not a guaranteed recipe for success.
It wasn't just originality that made the wii successful. It needed to be a good concept too, and it has proven itself thusly.
I would think a me-too is not necessarily a turn off (as the Mii-too avatars have demonstrated among xbox users). On the contrary, it is commercially safer to be based on existing technology than to introduce something different to basically achieve the same thing i.e. appealing to the casual audience.
Maybe i'm not understanding you correctly, but if the Z value does not need to be accurate, you are pretty much looking at a standalone PSEye (zero Z value accuracy LOL). Why do u need Natal for that?
I think Natal is not only about Zcam, to me a lot of it seem tied the underlying software and how the thing supposely accelerate shape recognition.
Z value is useful only once you manage to recognize the different body parts and affect them some of the meaningful Zvalue to a simplified representation of the human body.
Not too mention that they may not achive complete motion mapping neither I thing that games will be needed it that much. Little change in Z value could be lost in the noise more significant change depending range are likely to trigger pre rendred animation. If done properly the trick will work for most games.
I think that real motion mapping (/ not taht accurate) could exist but for gimmick say you can make dance your avatar in the way you really, kind of a proof that it works but for most I'm not sure it's worse it to implement something like that, the focus should detect what you want the gamer to do not what he would want to do, smoke and mirror thus the magic can work if done properly.
Perhaps "tilt" would be more accurate, but I thought it'd infer tilting to the side.
Slight turning of the head to indicate which direction to turn in the game is not absurd. It's practical, it frees up a thumb and is intuitive.
Slight turn... it would imply that you need to have your head in a brace at other times when u do not intend to turn in your FPS.
Perhaps "tilt" would be more accurate, but I thought it'd infer tilting to the side.
Slight turning of the head to indicate which direction to turn in the game is not absurd. It's practical, it frees up a thumb and is intuitive.
That's doable in PS Eye too. In the Japan tech sharing session, they demoed nodding as an interface to a quiz game.
I did, and ruled that out almost immediately. You might as well point with your elbow. Besides, have you ever done that warm-up excercise where you move your fully extended arms in decreasing and increasing circular motions? You wouldn't last 5 minutes.
Now, I was going to let them pass, but purely out of a fickle sense of spite at the bold(;)), I'd point out that your tilting the head to control the camera would never work or be allowed in a game, let alone in favour of the right stick. That'd be like trying to aim using the Sixaxis tilt. Grenades would work well I'd have thought too, and being able to look around corners by tilting your body would suit sitting in a seat as well as standing up. You're far more likely to see the game use your head movements subtly to give a sense of depth to the onscreen image.
Similarly using your feet to control a football in a serious sim would be simply awful. Fair enough for a party game or something casual, but never in FIFA or PES. At a push I'd say free throws in basketball would be better suited, but it's still hard to tell without knowing what the accuracy you can get from throwing would be like compared to real life.
You're completely missing the point if you keep thinking that the motion controls are meant to be used for games like "serious sims".
I don't see why head tracking would never work or be allowed in the game. It worked decently enough on low-res cameras on low-end PCs back when Matrox was pimping it for the PC years ago. It could be used to cool effect if calibrated correctly and not requiring large tilts.
That's doable in PS Eye too. In the Japan tech sharing session, they also demoed nodding as an interface to a quiz game.
Yes...we've already established this.
Slight turn... it would imply that you need to have your head in a brace at other times when u do not intend to turn in your FPS.
Not turn -- look. There's a huge difference. This wouldn't affect aim necessarily, but a subtle field of vision change as I see it. Aim would still be controlled with a thumbstick.
ShadowRunner
03-Jun-2009, 01:20
Launching a product that does the same thing after the Wii already took those consumers is not a guaranteed recipe for success.
True but the consumers they are going after dont have be the same ones. There could be a huge market out there for a console that controls like the wii but offers great graphics, more hardcore content, as well as a ton of other great non-motion control games.
I like the wii but i do crave the better graphics and games that appeal to me.
Im excited. I dont care about casual gamers buying the system or sonys bank balance i just want great games.
Well, I said other options.
The xb alternative is
$200 + Natal ($100-$200)
vs
$400 + eyetoy + ps3mc (+ additional waggles)
Either way it is significantly cheaper and thus more likely successful to capture the casual gamer for either MS or N.
I think Sony will have to figure out a way to make this system something that core gamers can buy into. Something that will benefit their games.
FPS' etc.
I could see this thing being awesome with GoW3.
A Wii sports type venture wouldn't go over so well with that price tag...
I would point out that the standalone PSEye is only $40, and I imagine PSMC to be no where near the cost of a Natal for the technology it uses. To say that it is "significantly cheaper and more likely successful to capture the casual gamer" for Microsoft, is jumping the gun. But it is certainly true for the Wii.
I was may be unclear. My point is that d-pad stick wasn't shown/used during the presentation and that it could not be there, it will be there thus. Ms if needed could for some games (depending on they decide to stick to super casual games or not) simply split a 360 controler "nun chuck style" without having to include any extra tech in this new controler.
You are still not clear, but I'll bite. How can MS split current controller without a new controller?
Obviously they can release another controller and do almost whatever PS3 tech can do.
If you meant to say PS3 eye cannot move a character while Natal can, not only I disagree, I think Sony is in a better position to address this issue.
As for my answer to your original question, I haven't seen dpad but the sonic patent shows analog stick. Joker should know, as apparently he knows people working on this tech for some time.
For me personally, as a gamer, Sony either needs include analog stick or a comfortable adapter for single hand Sixaxis usage if they want me to care about that beyond intellectual curiosity.
You don't get my point if you're to select units in say a RTS actually the Z value doesn't need to be accurate. The device could track your right hand (say with the forefinger sticking out for the example) movement in a 2D plane (X and Y) that would move a pointer/reticule on the screen / for selection you could either validate with a left hand gesture (say you draw a circle in a 2D space in there are 10 units) or for a single unit make a "click " movement with the right hand (not moving the finger but the whole arm say 10cm trust at least).
Well, at least I now understand why you changed pointing to selection. RTS is a bad example though, but I agree they can do 3d mouse. At least they should be able to, one would think.
The question is then, why wasn't there a tech demo of 3d mouse with Natal which I was fully expecting after the rumors as it's the obvious application? The painting demo was terrible, and could use such a thing.
Not turn -- look. There's a huge difference. This wouldn't affect aim necessarily, but a subtle field of vision change as I see it. Aim would still be controlled with a thumbstick.
You keep changing your words. You said "Slight turning of the head to indicate which direction to turn in the game is not absurd".
Well, if it is *just* a *subtle* field of vision change, why bother. It would only be nauseating if the field of vision responds to every subtle head movement, be it intended or not.
You are still not clear, but I'll bite. How can MS split current controller without a new controller?
Obviously they can release another controller and do almost whatever PS3 tech can do.
If you meant to say PS3 eye cannot move a character while Natal can, not only I disagree, I think Sony is in a better position to address this issue.
As for my answer to your original question, I haven't seen dpad but the sonic patent shows analog stick. Joker should know, as apparently he knows people working on this tech for some time.
For me personally, as a gamer, Sony either needs include analog stick or a comfortable adapter for single hand Sixaxis usage if they want me to care about that beyond intellectual curiosity.
My point is that if needed a new controler or other accessories would be trivial to implement.
Well, at least I now understand why you changed pointing to selection. RTS is a bad example though, but I agree they can do 3d mouse. At least they should be able to, one would think.
The question is then, why wasn't there a tech demo of 3d mouse with Natal which I was fully expecting after the rumors as it's the obvious application? The painting demo was terrible, and could use such a thing.
You still doesn't understand what I mean a mouse doesn't need to be in 3D plane to work.
I don't imply a "3D mouse" as there is no need for it.
Naboomagnoli
03-Jun-2009, 01:49
You're completely missing the point if you keep thinking that the motion controls are meant to be used for games like "serious sims".
I don't see why head tracking would never work or be allowed in the game. It worked decently enough on low-res cameras on low-end PCs back when Matrox was pimping it for the PC years ago. It could be used to cool effect if calibrated correctly and not requiring large tilts.
No, I think I've got the point spot on. If it isn't a serious game, then why keep the controller which is supposed to be repelling the casual market?
You described it as turning the camera. You said nothing about imitating head movements of the in-game character (in which case, lateral movements would be far more impactful, much in the way that the Wiimote head-tracker was so impressive).
My original point, regardless, stands. The Natal's strengths do not appear to lie in pointing or precision of movement. Yes, you will be able to point using Natal, but not for Wiimote Plus (or, I'd wager, Wiimote) accuracy; not for FPS purposes, or for a particularly accurate drag box-style selection. As I also said in that post, it has several strengths of its own, and it simply must be used to harness those strengths rather than try and bullsh** its way through competing with the other systems at their advantages for the sake of going for an easy option.
It will be the games that try to hammer a square peg into a round hole that will do all three respective motion controllers a disservice.
My point is that if needed a new controler or other accessories would be trivial to implement.
Agreed, but they won't do that in order not to further split the userbase, especially when controllerless control is your marketing tag line.
You still doesn't understand what I mean a mouse doesn't need to be in 3D plane to work.
I don't imply a "3D mouse" as there is no need for it.
I understood perfectly and It doesn't really matter as I wasn't talking about projection of your hand being in 3d space but your hand being in 3d space.
Whether there is a mapping to 2d is irrelevant (there should be obviously), the point is such a mouse should be obvious tech demo.
BTW, the camera measurement will not be only in 2d, it would be stupid not to use the depth data at least for background foreground separation, and hopefully for clicking motions.
Betan I think you got me completely lost :lol: I'll reread posts tomorow it's three am here I'm not sure I keet track of the discussion properly. A 3D mouse looks possible with Natal, precision could be a concern but I can't see this implement in "real/standard games" as they are other mean to select thing using hand more precisely (as described and you got it) and conviniently but in a wiiplay/sport setting it is likely be enough.
For the new controler, it's just a possibility like nintendo did with wii-fit. I'm not sure sure standard game (especcialy action/fps games) will try to take advantage of the tech this way either (or in anyway to be honest).
Come on, with that amount of lag? ...
where are you guys getting this "Oh noes, terrible lag" stuff?
The demo yesterday was showing video lag to the big screens. the screen that the gamer was using was in front of her was real time and perfectly accurate.
here is a hands on
http://www.time.com/time/arts/article/0,8599,1902208,00.html
Kipman also showed me a version of Burnout that had been set up to work with Project Natal. Burnout is a serious game, not just a tech demo it's a polished, fast-paced racing game with high-end graphics, and I happen to have played a lot of it. With Project Natal, instead of using a joystick, you steer by holding your hands up in the air like you're gripping a steering wheel. To hit the gas, you move your foot forward along the floor. To brake, you move it back. To trigger the turbo boost, you do a gear-shifting, fist-pumping movement with your right arm. Awesome.
It takes a few minutes to get the hang of it. You tend to oversteer, since you can't quite believe this thing is going to pick up your movements, so you exaggerate them. But soon you start to trust it, because it does actually work. I couldn't detect any significant latency. And there's definitely an extra edge to playing a game with nothing between you and the screen but your clenched, white-knuckled fists. I'm a hard-core gamer, so I'm not the person Project Natal is targeting. I love my controller as it is. But the appeal of Project Natal is real. You could compare it to the difference between regular movies and 3-D movies: it puts you in the action in a way that nothing else could.
Foot tracking is real important also. Think beyond fps games, etc, and instead picture stuff that the average casual person would like. .
exactly, full body, leg and foot tracking will show itself in this technology beyond what any hand held wand solution will ever be able to do
Betan I think you got me completely lost :lol: I'll reread posts tomorow it's three am here I'm not sure I keet track of the discussion properly. A 3D mouse looks possible with Natal, precision could be a concern but I can't see this implement in "real/standard games" as they are other mean to select thing using hand more precisely (as described and you got it) and conviniently but in a wiiplay/sport setting it is likely be enough.
Man, there is nothing to be lost in, I simply shortened your 2d selection technique as "3d mouse", because of your hand being in 3d, independent of selection being only in 2d plane.
Sweet dreams.
Foot tracking, I remember this image from the patent.
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/7281/us20080261693ki028.jpg
I hope they aren't serious with that :)
bkilian
03-Jun-2009, 02:52
Here's a blog post by one of the guys working on this tech:
http://procrastineering.blogspot.com/2009/06/project-natal.html
Betan: While a "3d mouse" demo might have been a good tech demo, I think they were out to show casual games, and chose the two demos they used in the time they had allotted for that purpose. For instance, they could have showed Burnout, since it's apparently working. Just because it wasn't shown in the very limited demo during the keynote does not imply that doing it is impossible.
I got the feeling that the two very nervous engineers (I get that same voice quaver when facing huge crowds of people :)) demoing Sony's motion controller were on the plane to LA last night with their tech demos, having gotten a phone call that morning. Their demos were excellent for showing the capabilities of the system, but were obviously not polished, like they would have been normally (Sony is generally pretty slick on stage). I suspect Sony wasn't originally planning on showing the device now.
new interview (not sure if it's been linked yet)
Pretty damn cool application of the tech. Just think about the possibilities of this... this is form of AI can maybe be part of each 360/720/etc console. Each console having it's own AI, sorta like Cortana...
AI: "Hi 22psi, what game would you like to play today?"
me: "I feel like some Halo 5"
AI: "Sure let me load it up for you. Also you have some messages waiting. Would you like to view them now or later?"
Eurogamer: So what can Milo do?
Peter Molyneux: Milo can recognise the emotions on your face and the emotions in your voice. He can recognise certain words you say. You can have conversations with him, you can read stories to him. We're trying to bring all these things together. Some of them are tricks - I'll be absolutely honest with you - to make you believe Milo's real.
He can recognise what you're wearing. If he notices you've got dark bags under your eyes he will say, 'You look tired today.'
Eurogamer: Really?
Peter Molyneux: Absolutely, all of that works. We're combining all that together to make you really believe that he understands what you say.
Let's try an experiment. When a human voice says something funny, there's a different tone in the voice. Even though Milo's not trained to recognise your voice, if you say something funny to him, he should recognise it as something amusing. Try it now.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/e3-project-natals-molyneux-and-milo-interview
Foot tracking, I remember this image from the patent.
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/7281/us20080261693ki028.jpg
I hope they aren't serious with that :)
LOL.
Yes, that is what buttons are for.
Scott_Arm
03-Jun-2009, 03:08
LOL.
Yes, that is what buttons are for.
You're just lazy. I do flip kicks in my living room every day, just in case something like this came along ;)
Brad Grenz
03-Jun-2009, 03:08
Gooooooooooooooooooooooaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa al
quest55720
03-Jun-2009, 03:12
While I was impressed with what Sony did I think it is to little to late. You can't just copy the market leader and expect to win. You have to significantly out do the market leader. Sure the Sony Wand is better than the Wii one. The problem it is not that much better where someone would buy a PS3 instead of a Wii. Natal if it works would out do the Wiimote for the casual gamer. Bundle it with an arcade system next year and you have an interesting battle if Natal works. I would love for Natal to work but I still have serious doubts almost to good to be true. I think Natal is the next step in waggle the question is can MS pull it off. Sony went the safe route MS went for it. It will be fun to see if they pull it off or crash and burn.
TheChefO
03-Jun-2009, 03:16
I got the feeling that the two very nervous engineers (I get that same voice quaver when facing huge crowds of people :)) demoing Sony's motion controller were on the plane to LA last night with their tech demos, having gotten a phone call that morning. Their demos were excellent for showing the capabilities of the system, but were obviously not polished, like they would have been normally (Sony is generally pretty slick on stage). I suspect Sony wasn't originally planning on showing the device now.
:lol:
I got the same sense!
Hey, they didn't do bad though and at least it didn't crash!
TheChefO
03-Jun-2009, 03:18
AI: "Hi 22psi, what game would you like to play today?"
me: "I feel like some Halo 5"
AI: "Sure let me load it up for you. Also you have some messages waiting. Would you like to view them now or later?"
Stop Dave ... Please stop Dave.
obonicus
03-Jun-2009, 03:25
I think discussion of Milo's AI deserves its own thread.
inefficient
03-Jun-2009, 03:58
I know all about PS3MC, a bunch of friends have been working on it for ages, but I know little to nothing about Natal aside from the video today. But if it can detect where limbs are and depth as well, then it should be adaptable to all types of games including fps. In other words, if it can position your hands in three space, then you should be able to do just about anything with it. It may be dependent on software support for that, but that's Microsoft strong suit anyways.
But you still need a button to shoot.
Or do you think the Natal camera is going to be able to detect small finger moments and manipulations like that precisely. It seems to only track the major limb joints.
Here's a blog post by one of the guys working on this tech:
http://procrastineering.blogspot.com/2009/06/project-natal.html
Betan: While a "3d mouse" demo might have been a good tech demo, I think they were out to show casual games, and chose the two demos they used in the time they had allotted for that purpose. For instance, they could have showed Burnout, since it's apparently working. Just because it wasn't shown in the very limited demo during the keynote does not imply that doing it is impossible.
I got the feeling that the two very nervous engineers (I get that same voice quaver when facing huge crowds of people :)) demoing Sony's motion controller were on the plane to LA last night with their tech demos, having gotten a phone call that morning. Their demos were excellent for showing the capabilities of the system, but were obviously not polished, like they would have been normally (Sony is generally pretty slick on stage). I suspect Sony wasn't originally planning on showing the device now.
It's cool that they could put up a quick, perfectly working demo suite overnight though. This tells me that the tech is functional and has been working (for the tested use cases) for some time now.
The motion sensing project has been leaked ahead of time. They may also have prepared the team for a possible E3 demo ahead of time.
Foot tracking, I remember this image from the patent.
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/7281/us20080261693ki028.jpg
I hope they aren't serious with that :)
Ha ha, the controller shape will obviously change. They'd probably try standard concepts like a PS3 controller, a pair of glove, etc.
Again for tracking "casual" kicks, see the EyeToy video.
DrJay24
03-Jun-2009, 04:25
You're just lazy. I do flip kicks in my living room every day, just in case something like this came along ;)
http://i44.tinypic.com/2ylljrs.gif
:lol:
I think discussion of Milo's AI deserves its own thread.
This would be fantastic. :grin:
Edit: So back to Natal, I can see the forseeable games utilizing both motion and normal controls. Say using normal controls in an FPS, then coming up to an area where you have to solve a puzzle or turn a wheel by using Natal. Just really cool possibilities.
Scott_Arm
03-Jun-2009, 04:59
http://i44.tinypic.com/2ylljrs.gif
:lol:
Ha ha ha, classic.
Brad Grenz
03-Jun-2009, 05:08
This would be fantastic. :grin:
Edit: So back to Natal, I can see the forseeable games utilizing both motion and normal controls. Say using normal controls in an FPS, then coming up to an area where you have to solve a puzzle or turn a wheel by using Natal. Just really cool possibilities.
Isn't that exactly the kind of Six Axis feature people like to shit all over?
obonicus
03-Jun-2009, 05:08
I got the feeling that the two very nervous engineers (I get that same voice quaver when facing huge crowds of people :)) demoing Sony's motion controller were on the plane to LA last night with their tech demos, having gotten a phone call that morning. Their demos were excellent for showing the capabilities of the system, but were obviously not polished, like they would have been normally (Sony is generally pretty slick on stage). I suspect Sony wasn't originally planning on showing the device now.
Just poor presentation skills (and yeah, it was raw) shouldn't necessarily indicate lack of preparedness. Let's wait to hear if anyone or any announcements were bumped, like happened with last year's Bungie announcement. Plus, Sony is the 'historically-accurate giant enemy crab' offender, so I'm not sure we can really say that they're so 'slick'.
But I mean, Kudo's own presentation wasn't totally without fla (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXN7vLPsDSM&fmt=18)ws (http://www.vimeo.com/4952629). :D And we certainly know that MS came prepared.
Scott_Arm
03-Jun-2009, 05:10
Isn't that exactly the kind of Six Axis feature people like to shit all over?
I don't know. They could do some interesting things with facial recognition, voice recognition and motion in NPC interactions and use the controller for the rest of the game.
To be frank, I am actually scared that the devs have to add so many things with dubious benefits to their games. Some can't even keep their released game stable today. If they want to do this, it _may_ be best to do a game from the ground up for motion sensing.
I shudder to think of FF and GT5 extending their schedules to add motion sensing features. Small beneficial enhancements are probably good and fruitful. May want to wait for guinea pigs for the highly exploratory ones, or let MS and Sony invest their own resources :-P.
Brad Grenz
03-Jun-2009, 05:19
I don't know. They could do some interesting things with facial recognition, voice recognition and motion in NPC interactions and use the controller for the rest of the game.
I guess, but will it be worth diverting that much of your processing budget to trying to detect facial expressions in a game otherwise controller driven? I suspect the lag from the live demos had a lot to do with how processor intensive it is to take a cloud of 3D data points and turn that into usable information. And it's not like games couldn't all support voice recognition right now if they cared to.
Scott_Arm
03-Jun-2009, 05:33
I guess, but will it be worth diverting that much of your processing budget to trying to detect facial expressions in a game otherwise controller driven? I suspect the lag from the live demos had a lot to do with how processor intensive it is to take a cloud of 3D data points and turn that into usable information. And it's not like games couldn't all support voice recognition right now if they cared to.
Well, the actual Natal unit has a processor on it, so maybe it won't use much.
I'm thinking of games like RPGs, where usually it cuts to an NPC interaction view where it cuts away from the normal controls and you get dialog options and stuff. Those are the situations where I think they'll use those features.
Brad Grenz
03-Jun-2009, 05:59
Well, the actual Natal unit has a processor on it, so maybe it won't use much.
It sounds to me like the Natal unit has a processor to combine the data from the two cameras to generate the cloud of 3D points, but then passes that data to the host system, along with the video and audio stream, where it's up to the software to decide how to use it. I can't imagine the algorithm that defines the underlying skeletal structure and then tries to detect recognized motions is anything but expensive.
archie4oz
03-Jun-2009, 06:00
Here's a blog post by one of the guys working on this tech:
http://procrastineering.blogspot.com/2009/06/project-natal.html
Oh yay, Johnny Chung Lee is collaborating eh?
I got the feeling that the two very nervous engineers (I get that same voice quaver when facing huge crowds of people :)) demoing Sony's motion controller were on the plane to LA last night with their tech demos, having gotten a phone call that morning. Their demos were excellent for showing the capabilities of the system, but were obviously not polished, like they would have been normally (Sony is generally pretty slick on stage). I suspect Sony wasn't originally planning on showing the device now.
Richard and Anton have been on the stage before (and posted on the Playstation blog) so it's not like they don't have any experience with this. Despite the in-formalness of the demo, it was a little too organized to be a last minute ad-hoc. Rather they were probably told to be ready to demo it several weeks back under contingency that MS would show something off.
Scott_Arm
03-Jun-2009, 06:15
It sounds to me like the Natal unit has a processor to combine the data from the two cameras to generate the cloud of 3D points, but then passes that data to the host system, along with the video and audio stream, where it's up to the software to decide how to use it. I can't imagine the algorithm that defines the underlying skeletal structure and then tries to detect recognized motions is anything but expensive.
From that blog that was linked it seems like the software algorithms that define the skeletal structure are running on the camera unit. There is some kind of software running with a specialized processor in the unit.
How much would one of those body-suit setups used for motion-capture cost?
Would something like that be viable or maybe better than these approaches for collecting motion input? And then rendering that data in real-time?
Presumably, all the reflection points allow key points to be tracked, so that articulation of limbs is detected.
How about a mesh suit that you throw over your clothes, with enough reflection points to track all the limbs?
...
Archie, I have a question for you regarding Sense Me. Kaz's presentation wasn't clear. Is it a server-based solution or a client-based one ? Kaz made it sounds like it's the latter, but I believe most technologies in this area want to be server-based so that the operator can use the aggregated behaviour/preference data for better recommendation.
Sorry for the off topic question, but I don't want to create a separate thread for it (since archie may check this thread again for responses :))
flashboom
03-Jun-2009, 06:48
Just poor presentation skills (and yeah, it was raw) shouldn't necessarily indicate lack of preparedness. Let's wait to hear if anyone or any announcements were bumped, like happened with last year's Bungie announcement. Plus, Sony is the 'historically-accurate giant enemy crab' offender, so I'm not sure we can really say that they're so 'slick'.
But I mean, Kudo's own presentation wasn't totally without fla (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXN7vLPsDSM&fmt=18)ws (http://www.vimeo.com/4952629). :D And we certainly know that MS came prepared.I know games were pulled. They are normally slick but individual pr is regularly rotten.
Brad Grenz
03-Jun-2009, 06:52
From that blog that was linked it seems like the software algorithms that define the skeletal structure are running on the camera unit. There is some kind of software running with a specialized processor in the unit.
The blog post doesn't say one way of the other. I'm basing my inference on the fact that it would severely limit functionality if the game only had access to the skeletal portion of the data. It makes more sense, if you're committed to this in the first place, to do that processing on the host. The processor in the camera device should have its hands full with the triangulation process anyway.
archie4oz
03-Jun-2009, 07:09
Archie, I have a question for you regarding Sense Me. Kaz's presentation wasn't clear. Is it a server-based solution or a client-based one ? Kaz made it sounds like it's the latter, but I believe most technologies in this area want to be server-based so that the operator can use the aggregated behaviour/preference data for better recommendation.
Client based.
Well, I said other options.
The xb alternative is
$200 + Natal ($100-$200)
vs
$400 + eyetoy + ps3mc (+ additional waggles)
Either way it is significantly cheaper and thus more likely successful to capture the casual gamer for either MS or N.
I think Sony will have to figure out a way to make this system something that core gamers can buy into. Something that will benefit their games.
FPS' etc.
I could see this thing being awesome with GoW3.
A Wii sports type venture wouldn't go over so well with that price tag...
I donīt get this budget, you add the base price of the unit? Thatīs like me adding a everything the PS3 can to the XBOX and Wii prices.
XBOX+BluRay Player+ 200$ of Live Gold + Natal
If we use your logic no one will ever pick anything but the Wii for motion controlled games.
Client based.
Weird ! Don't you think those kind of preference data is valuable for marketers ? especially for a free network operator like PSN to upsell stuff ?
EDIT: Okay, I'll keep quiet on this item now.
Sony's waggle is waggle done right. It will have its uses, and it will provide for relatively easy cross-porting of casual titles.
Natal is something entirely else, with its new set of problems and solutions. Until it is out, there's no way to tell how well it will work - although the chatter coming through private channels is very encouraging.
WRT precision - it's a time-of-flight camera, which means they emit a IR light ray and measure the time for it to return; they probably scan the room with the ray, and they can control it at will; one of the materials said they scan the entire scene in 5 frames; if they want to detect only hands, for example, they can focus mostly on the area around where the hands were last frame, but receive increased precision in return.
It can augment normal controllers very well, unlike the waggles. E.g. you play a team-based shooter with the dualstick controller, you tell your teammates "regroup over there" over voice comm, and point at the screen for a second with your hand; your teammate sees a flashing light marker in the game world. You can activate star power by throwing the horns or headbanging. You can cast a few predefined spells with several simple gestures etc.
Ha ha, Cool ! With new investment in the camera, I thought precision should be one of its strength. So finger tracking is possible (e.g., pressing guitar chords) ? How's its speed ?
At the moment, I don't like their (sales) pitch in coarse grain, full body detection (At that granularity, PS Eye should be able to approximate the solution too).
TheChefO
03-Jun-2009, 07:52
If we use your logic no one will ever pick anything but the Wii for motion controlled games.
Exactly.
Unless you give someone a reason to spend more, they won't.
People that are interested in games as they are, have a xb360 or ps3.
People that are interested in wii sports, have a wii.
If you want to lure wii gamers, give them a reason.
If you want to lure those that don't have a wii or xb360 or ps3, give them a reason.
Sony has essentially pitted themselves directly in competition with Wii with their tech. But their price puts them outside of that market of nongamers that may be interested.
archie4oz
03-Jun-2009, 08:00
The processor in the camera device should have its hands full with the triangulation process anyway.
Personally I'd doubt that. It don't think it's anything that fancy. I'd guess it's just a low resolution IR sensor that's gating pulses from one or more IR transmitters (essentially very similar to active autofocus on many still cameras) to essentially generate a z-buffer that gets sent to the host along with the webcam's own buffer. From there the host CPU processes the image data, so you're right in pointing out that most of the computer vision processing is occurring on the host CPU. Doesn't make sense to implement that on the camera devices itself as that just increases the cost of the device and potentially limits flexibility.
In that regard the PS Eye is similar in which it doesn't even do image processing in-camera (like the EyeToy did), instead just dumping raw sensor data to the host CPU to process (Cell has far more resources to play with than some small, cheap DSP on a camera). That gives you a lot more flexibility to perform different types of analysis on the data, rather than just trying to work within the constraints of a 2D processed RGB image.
Personally, I'm a fan of ultrasonic sensing myself. I used to mess around with that quite a bit in the past using old Polaroid focusing sensors.
EDIT: Looks like Assen beat me to it...
Sony has essentially pitted themselves directly in competition with Wii with their tech. But their price puts them outside of that market of nongamers that may be interested.
If, and please pay attention to the "if", they have really solved the century old problem on consoles with FPS games, namely hitting what you aim at, then i am happy :-)
Personally I'd doubt that. It don't think it's anything that fancy. I'd guess it's just a low resolution IR sensor that's gating pulses from one or more IR transmitters (essentially very similar to active autofocus on many still cameras) to essentially generate a z-buffer that gets sent to the host along with the webcam's own buffer. From there the host CPU processes the image data, so you're right in pointing out that most of the computer vision processing is occurring on the host CPU. Doesn't make sense to implement that on the camera devices itself as that just increases the cost of the device and potentially limits flexibility.
In that regard the PS Eye is similar in which it doesn't even do image processing in-camera (like the EyeToy did), instead just dumping raw sensor data to the host CPU to process (Cell has far more resources to play with than some small, cheap DSP on a camera). That gives you a lot more flexibility to perform different types of analysis on the data, rather than just trying to work within the constraints of a 2D processed RGB image.
Personally, I'm a fan of ultrasonic sensing myself. I used to mess around with that quite a bit in the past using old Polaroid focusing sensors.
.... but how fast and how fine can Cell process the raw image data compared to:
* A simplified dataset due to the supporting IR data, and
* The IR sensor's ability to zoom into specific area to gather more detailed data
Essentially, can PSEye track fine finger movement fast enough ? I doubt it has enough resolution to do so at some distance away. Not sure if the 3DV camera can do so too.
As for the ultrasonic controller, how small can they make the emitter ? And how power hungry are those ? Someone suggested a (finger) ring-based device, but I suspect it'd be too small. Perhaps a glove is possible ? If it can be fitted on a ring, I'd rather fit it to a ribbon/sticker so that I can tie/attach it anywhere I want.
archie4oz
03-Jun-2009, 08:44
As for the ultrasonic controller, how small can they make the emitter ? And how power hungry are those ? Someone suggested a (finger) ring-based device, but I suspect it'd be too small. Perhaps a glove is possible ? If it can be fitted on a ring, I'd rather fit it to a ribbon/sticker so that I can tie/attach it anywhere I want.
I've seen transducers as small as a pencil eraser and they're usually around a couple of dollars. But you're thinking about them backwards. Transducers that cheap generally don't have the range/resolution that would be practical in this sort of application. Also sticking this stuff all over yourself is kinda silly since it's only really useful for measuring distance. I was thinking more along the lines of ultrasonic imaging from the perspective of the camera, not doing range-finding from a device on the user.
.... but how fast and how fine can Cell process the raw image data compared to:
* A simplified dataset due to the supporting IR data, and
* The IR sensor's ability to zoom into specific area to gather more detailed data
Well for starters you don't have an ability to "zoom" a sensor. If you're picking out a portion of a scene, then you're just interpolating a section of data from your sensor. Secondly, you're forgetting that the PS Eye can also see into the IR spectrum as well (quite well actually). As far as Cell processing image data, are you serious?
Essentially, can PSEye track fine finger movement fast enough ? I doubt it has enough resolution to do so at some distance away. Not sure if the 3DV camera can do so too.
If Natal is working with the same specs as the 3DV camera, then it's actually lower resolution than the PS Eye. The big disadvantage is that you don't have an active IR emitter, so you're stuck working with passive light gathering; so open your windows or go play outside where there's more infrared light!
Oh wow, you actually replied to my post. I should have bought lottery tickets today.
I thought the PS Eye has pretty low resolution. Will the interpolated data be useful ? I mean my fingers may appear rather small when viewed on TV (from PS Eye's perspective).
As for Cell processing image data.... yeah it's fast; but there could be a ton of data coming in for fast movement. Not to mention the SPUs will need to run the actual game. I have always wondered how heavy is PS Eye taxing the Cell. Would you be able to shed some light ?
Brad Grenz
03-Jun-2009, 08:52
I'm thinking they must have upgrade to HD resolution cameras for the Natal.
Crossbar
03-Jun-2009, 09:33
I'm thinking they must have upgrade to HD resolution cameras for the Natal.
Me also thinks that (for the RGB camera). The benfit of having all the data processing local in the camera is that the video stream can be lossy compressed before being sent to the console cpu. IIRC correctly the USB was a limiting factor to the resolution of the PS eye (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_Eye).
The PlayStation Eye is capable of capturing standard video with frame rates of 60 hertz at a 640x480 pixel resolution, and 120 hertz at 320x240 pixels
If you remember the original spec of the PS3 (which never materialzed) it contained another Gbit ethernet port which was said to be there for peripherals demanding high speed connections such as HD cameras.
When the PSEye was released there were rumours that there had been an internal fight within Sony wether to releas a HD camera or the current PSEye, but the cheapest solution won. In the light of the slow sales of the PS3 due to the high price point, that was probably a very easy decision, Ken Kutaragi left during the same time frame.
Still I hope there will be a HD-Eye (with PS-Eye compatibility) somewhere down the road when the sensor has come down in prce. Incorporating a Gbit hub in the camera should be pretty cheap if they wanted to do that and they could probably find a clever and neat cabling solution where the second ethernet connector would be kept close to the one connected to the PS3.
The precision on ps3mc is awesome. IMO, this precision plays into the hands of existing gamers. Using it as an aiming tool or mouse replacement.
MS' system is setup to capture the non-gamer that Nintendo has been milking for the past few years. But it goes even further. No need to hold anything or know what button does what or where the buttons are.
MS has a good grip on the "super casual" market. I'm not sure what more could be done in this realm aside from further advancements in reduced lag and higher resolution.
Sony's system on the other hand is more an accessory to the core gamer's arsenal. I think others have a good point though wrt how it fits in the bigger picture.
Price is also working against Sony picking up this market.
If people aren't or weren't all that interested in gaming, but played with mocon somewhere and thought it might be fun, they will likely pickup the cheaper option(s).
I agree with this. Sony's system is more (and probably better) geared towards games. Microsoft's is intended to change the way one interfaces with consumer electronics: browsing through menus, playing video's or playing simple games. It is intended to enable those to who are alienated by even the simplest controller to be able to use such machines (and hence become a customer).
Software is Micosoft's strong suit, I'm confident they will be able to support it and create a very intuitive way of interacting with the 360. Also, one should not forget that Microsoft spends incredible amounts of money on generic research every year. Maybe those billions per year will finally pay off when they are combined in Project Natal (remember that Molyneux also points this out, when they browsed through the MS SDK's for voice recognition etc).
Exactly. At the Ubisoft presser the Red Steel 2 guys made a big deal about their 1:1 mapping of the katana, but it was pretty obvious that wne away as soon as your swiping motion triggered an attack animation. I think at least part of that is an issue of limited processing power on the Wii.
Really?, so then how come Wii Sports Resort can do 1:1 fine?
Brad Grenz
03-Jun-2009, 11:19
Wii Sports has much simpler graphics.
Looking at the video again, the sword is 1:1 in Red Steel 2 before the player slashes with it and its not as if the graphics change when you slash at someone. Personally I think it probably just comes down to how the developers wanted the sword play to work.
If you look at Wii Sports Resort having the sword totally 1:1 ends up looking quite clumbsy at times due to most people not really being very good with swords :) Maybe they just wanted to make sure the sword fighting looked good by giving the player full control of where to hit but using an animation for the actual slash.
I'm sure IGN will ask this question when they do their Red Steel 2 interview so no doubt we'll find out then.
catisfit
03-Jun-2009, 12:15
I have not seen this "severe lag" you're talking about. Sources?
where are you guys getting this "Oh noes, terrible lag" stuff?
The pre-recorded Mylo video - as she looked into the water, there was a significant (easily noticable) lag between her hand movements and the hand movements of her reflection. That's where I noticed it most, anyway.
Making a me-too accessory that does largely the exact same thing will not make it a success.
Actually, I think the opposite is true. My original reaction to the PSMC was that I could play Tiger Woods and Pro Evo with the great Wii motion controls and with the benefits of PS3 (graphics, online etc). It would be pretty simple for developers to port control systems from Wii to PS3 in these games, as an option alongside current PS3 control systems. Which of course means sizable and cost-effective support for PSMC from third parties.
I think it would be quicker to dismiss some hand on comments about Natal and accept its doom and gloom future...
obonicus
03-Jun-2009, 12:41
I know games were pulled. They are normally slick but individual pr is regularly rotten.
What games were pulled? How do you know?
obonicus
03-Jun-2009, 12:41
It can augment normal controllers very well, unlike the waggles. E.g. you play a team-based shooter with the dualstick controller, you tell your teammates "regroup over there" over voice comm, and point at the screen for a second with your hand; your teammate sees a flashing light marker in the game world. You can activate star power by throwing the horns or headbanging. You can cast a few predefined spells with several simple gestures etc.
How would it know where you're pointing? Calibration before-hand?
How would it know where you're pointing? Calibration before-hand?
It's possible for standard games you're not likely to move really few from your seat/sofa.
http://i44.tinypic.com/2ylljrs.gif
:lol:
A Proven Stevie Wonder Accuracy, eventually you will hit something.
Did anyone got the feeling that after Kutaragi left, Kaz decided to shelve the development of PS eye (along with other creative solutions), that made Phil to resign, but once Kaz got wind of Microsoft developing a motion "controller", got nervous and decided to re-route funds to Richard Mark's division? That could be why i felt Marks presentation this time was a little nervy and even raw, considering the time gap between the E3 when he and Phil first showed the PS eye.
While i am more impressed by Microsoft presentation of their motion "controller", i have more faith in Sony's to be the better performing retail product, there is a feeling inside me that Microsoft "controller" is a little too "beautified". I have to see both sure, but i am inching towards the PS eye. As what the above posters have noted, the Sony mc appears to be more suited to the gaming crowd. Wasn't there a rumor of a break away mention sensing DS3?
A Proven Stevie Wonder Accuracy, eventually you will hit something.
Actually the system is accurate... she missed a bunch of ball :lol:
Here are some of my first thoughts on the three controllers (for the technological background also see the OP posts of the individual threads for these controllers in the Console Technology forum):
I think that generally, the Microsoft device is more impressive. It apparently generates a 3D field much like those laser tools that can 3D scan an environment. That allows for a great deal of cool things to be done with it. Also, it can apparently 'focus' on certain objects. So it's precision capabilities can be used to scan the whole room with a certain amount of 3d points scanned, and then the next time you can tell the software to focus on the area where you located hands for instance and scan them in more detail. Now scanning the whole field of vision of the camera apparently takes 5 frames, and then focussing on something in particular can take more or less time, I'm sure.
From the demonstrations its clear that they can take that 3d field and recognise and map objects, like a human body simplified skeleton (not sure how detailed they can get in practice straight up). They can focus on a face after some facial recognition and read emotions. And they can really scan in objects you hold up to the camera, which is pretty cool also. They can make a 3d map, and then read the actual RGB light to texture or paint the resulting 3d model - this was demonstrated a little already in the demo with the skateboard. The potential is pretty darn huge and awesome.
However, there's going to be a bit of lag - if the device needs 5 frames to scan the whole area, then there's more time needed for interpreting the resulting data. I don't know how fast they can do that, and if this analysis can be done on the camera (would make it a little more expensive) or whether the data is sent to the 360 for analysis there, but this could add some more frames. Let's be optimistic and say that they can keep it within 7 frames. If we assume 60 frames per second, then we're talking about 117ms of lag.
This is probably the main risk for some types of games, but doesn't have to be a real problem, and people's impressions of the live thing seem positive. A second potential problem is multi-player - online, the additional lag could become annoying. Also, offline, multi-player could make it harder to analyse the different players and is definitely going to decrease the available resolution that the players can be scanned with.
The Sony motion controller discussed here is, apart from obtaining the 1:1 motion control, focussed primarily on reducing lag to a minimum. I wouldn't be surprised if response is practically instantaneous and lag-free - think well within a frame. Also, gesture recognition processing is probably something that can run on a fraction of an SPU, maybe even the system reserved or shared one, and isn't going to have any noticeable performance impact on games.
There's an interesting additional advantage to Sony's approach though - it's very likely to be nearly 100% compatible with WiiMotionPlus. While this was a thought I've had earlier, just today I noticed an article on how the developer that provides the library for motion control on the Wii has already released a version for the PS3's controller, which includes the ability to simply 'record' a gesture that can then be recognised by the library and connected to a function. This means that developers who've invested time into developing a game for the Wii and particularly WiiMotePlus can very, very easily also release this for the Playstation (not to mention vice versa of course, but with WiiMotionPlus out now ... ).
This is particularly important because none of these technologies are included with the console by default, so that the initial market is going to be very, very small. In that respect, Microsoft's camera may be going up against WiiMotionPlus and PS3MC combined. In reality this may not be as strict - I can imagine that there will be applications where the camera will be 'compatible' with what the PS3 and WiiMote is doing - MS could even release empty sticks or sticks with just rumble that you hold and that the camera focusses on exclusively, but still it's going to be interesting. I can definitely see the camera as default control method for the next-gen though ... the question is how successful WiiMotionPlus and PS3MC (which by the way should be more precise and less laggy than WiiMotionPlus) will be in the meantime.
goonergaz
03-Jun-2009, 14:43
Good read mate :)
My thoughts are that the Sony solution offers the advantages of both the other solutions in one package.
People say the PSMC is a Wiimote+, but it looks to be better with less light and line-of-sight issues. It's also really accurate. But in addition you have the camera functionality, so we have a bit of the MS solution in there...a bit of 'best of both worlds'.
I need to look at more MS footage (all I've seen so far is Milo) but so far I'm not 'blown away' - I've seen similar stuff (and promises) from eyetoy so excuse my negativity - but the footage I've seen looks staged and nothing that couldn't have been reproduced on the eyetoy - in fact I thought the bit where Claire (IIRC) rippled the water looked very suspect.
Either way think again the Sony offers similar features but with added button functionality - how would the MS solution work in an FPS? would you point your finger? How would you shoot? I don't think it could be any better than the Wiimote (without 1:1) and not enough better than eyetoy - I find the Wiimote really frustratingly inconsistent - like the eyetoy...too often subtle things are missed and you end up overcompensating whereas the PSMC seemed very accurate...and has buttons!
Just my thoughts. I must try to find the other MS demos.
Yes, you should definitely watch the full demo. Here's some of it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5DHgYz-HpA&feature=related
And don't forget, Microsoft sent out SDKs to publishers - this is much further along than some people seem to think.
I agree with this. Sony's system is more (and probably better) geared towards games. Microsoft's is intended to change the way one interfaces with consumer electronics: browsing through menus, playing video's or playing simple games. It is intended to enable those to who are alienated by even the simplest controller to be able to use such machines (and hence become a customer).
Yes, that should be the goal for a "no controller" interface. I read somewhere that MS claimed the device is sub-$100 (comfortable to be released with a $69 game).
Perhaps they don't need a HD camera or true 1-to-1 mapping. Start with a cheap, ,robust, SD solution first; and then upgrade to HD later. It think they may be able to detect certain types of finger movements even with only an SD camera and a high power IR.
Did anyone got the feeling that after Kutaragi left, Kaz decided to shelve the development of PS eye (along with other creative solutions), that made Phil to resign, but once Kaz got wind of Microsoft developing a motion "controller", got nervous and decided to re-route funds to Richard Mark's division? That could be why i felt Marks presentation this time was a little nervy and even raw, considering the time gap between the E3 when he and Phil first showed the PS eye.
Nah... Kaz admitted that augmented reality is his personal interest during one of the earlier interviews.
I think that generally, the Microsoft device is more impressive. It apparently generates a 3D field much like those laser tools that can 3D scan an environment. That allows for a great deal of cool things to be done with it. Also, it can apparently 'focus' on certain objects. So it's precision capabilities can be used to scan the whole room with a certain amount of 3d points scanned, and then the next time you can tell the software to focus on the area where you located hands for instance and scan them in more detail. Now scanning the whole field of vision of the camera apparently takes 5 frames, and then focussing on so
Generating a 3D map of the environment is rad ! Would be great if we know what the resolution is. That will tell us what type of applications are suitable (since we know some basic parameters for the lag/detection time).
And don't forget, Microsoft sent out SDKs to publishers - this is much further along than some people seem to think.
The 3DV camera was ready to go to market, so it should be usable and robust. It's the Milo concept video (especially the speech recognition part) that gave people the impression that the thing is still far away.
My thoughts:
I was initially most blown away by the Microsoft solution, however, I cannot see how applicable it will be in replacing the controller for current games. The more I look at the Sony solution, I can't help but find it the more practical for current gaming. I certainly hope they will include an analog joystiq on it or else it will be more limited in its ability to replace current joysticks.
I wonder if the MS solution is mostly implmented in software, if so, since the PSEye uses PS3 OS could it not be updated to improve accuracy on the software side of things? This 3d map that the MS solution creates, is that not done in software?
I got the feeling that the two very nervous engineers (I get that same voice quaver when facing huge crowds of people :)) demoing Sony's motion controller were on the plane to LA last night with their tech demos, having gotten a phone call that morning. Their demos were excellent for showing the capabilities of the system, but were obviously not polished, like they would have been normally (Sony is generally pretty slick on stage). I suspect Sony wasn't originally planning on showing the device now.
I have this feeling too, things doesn't add up at all. On one side Joker hints that the stuff have been working on for a while on the other side the demo shown are completely lacking lustre.
The tech works properly and its precision is unmatched but the thing still looks like a weird prototype. I wonder if Sony was undecided about showing it it before MS conf.
Looking at the video again, the sword is 1:1 in Red Steel 2 before the player slashes with it and its not as if the graphics change when you slash at someone. Personally I think it probably just comes down to how the developers wanted the sword play to work.
If you look at Wii Sports Resort having the sword totally 1:1 ends up looking quite clumbsy at times due to most people not really being very good with swords :) Maybe they just wanted to make sure the sword fighting looked good by giving the player full control of where to hit but using an animation for the actual slash.
I'm sure IGN will ask this question when they do their Red Steel 2 interview so no doubt we'll find out then.
You don't really need 1:1 mapping in sword fighting especially since blocking by the AI can be very problematic and cause the need for constant breaking of such precision mapping to keep game play fluid.
I have this feeling too, things doesn't add up at all. On one side Joker hints that the stuff have been working on for a while on the other side the demo shown are completely lacking lustre.
The tech works properly and its precision is unmatched but the thing still looks like a weird prototype. I wonder if Sony was undecided about showing it it before MS conf.
As archie4oz pointed out, they were prepared to demo but the confirmation came late. 3DV camera was (close to) going to market, so they should be very ready. That's why I was surpised to hear a 2010 release date, instead of a 2009 one. My sense is MS will push to release it in 2009 with partial functionality.
The Sony demoes are actually pretty refined given that they work very well. It's the packaging that s*cks.
Remember the Batarang ? They'd need some time to finalize the shape.
You don't really need 1:1 mapping in sword fighting especially since blocking by the AI can be very problematic and cause the need for constant breaking of such precision mapping to keep game play fluid.
I think they need 1:1 mapping for direct manipulation of virtual objects as if you're there (e.g., writing, fine-grained targeting, constructing virtual objects) so that the brain won't get confused. Large movement like sword swing should be ok.
I'm sure companies like Sony is also looking into ultrasonic 3D imaging. This Christmas is going to be fun.
jonabbey
03-Jun-2009, 16:01
As archie4oz pointed out, they were prepared to demo but the confirmation came late. 3DV camera was (close to) going to market, so they should be very ready. That's why I was surpised to hear a 2010 release date, instead of a 2009 one. My sense is MS will push to release it in 2009 with partial functionality.
My understanding is that Natal (not the final name) will not be released this year, and may be released late next year.
Can't recall where I picked that up from, so salt++ as needed.
The tech demo showed 1:1 tracking/rendering but how likely are developers to implement it?
For instance, in the PS demo when he shot that bow "gangster-style" was that a gesture recognition or was it true 1:1? Could he have shot it 3/4 angle, that is hold the bow somewhere between 0 and 90 degrees to the horizon?
Sports games developers like EA has invested a lot in motion-capture. Would they really drop all those animations of signature styles meant to represent famous athletes in favor of 1:1?
That is, will they let users, most of them with horrible golf swings, make the virtual Tiger Woods swing like an amateur?
Or in their new tennis game, will they let Nadal hit one-handed backhands all the time and have Federer play lefty or two-handed backhands if that's what the user is doing?
Or if a user just can't get the serving form down, will he or she double-fault all the time?
More than likely, even Motionplus and these other controllers will use gesture-recognition to trigger canned animations.
So it seems there will always be a gap between what's possible on paper and what developers trying to sell games do.
My thoughts:
I was initially most blown away by the Microsoft solution, however, I cannot see how applicable it will be in replacing the controller for current games. The more I look at the Sony solution, I can't help but find it the more practical for current gaming. I certainly hope they will include an analog joystiq on it or else it will be more limited in its ability to replace current joysticks.
It's a given.
I wonder if the MS solution is mostly implemented in software, if so, since the PSEye uses PS3 OS could it not be updated to improve accuracy on the software side of things? This 3 map that the MS solution creates, is that not done in software?
One of my concern is on the software side of thing, whatever the the I think Ms is head and shoulders above Sony in this regard.
For MS solution we know really few, in fact we've just learnt today that it's was based on 3DV tech. Clearly Ms have been working a lot on the software layer but how Natal accelerate this software is in the dark. It could be some cheap CPU from the embedded space + a custom dsp + some RAM/ROM but it doesn't say much.
On the PS Eye side of thing educated member here hinted that the possibilities of the ps eye are mostly unexplored which makes me think that MS has significant advance on the software side of thing (hardware side outside of the cameras is not that relevant as cell as processing power in spare where as xenon could not afford too the extra work).
My understanding is that Natal (not the final name) will not be released this year, and may be released late next year.
Can't recall where I picked that up from, so salt++ as needed.
*If* this is the case, it may be more because the developers and the logistics need time (e.g., price needs to drop further). Technically speaking, a partial Natal (just the original 3DV functionality) should work.
The tech demo showed 1:1 tracking/rendering but how likely are developers to implement it?
Depends on whether they can come up with an interesting application that sells. In similar vein, a precise 3D mouse may work for PS3 too. It's useful for web browsing and most importantly, not tiring to use.
Both approaches are useful, but the "no controller" market looks wide open now. I'd say now that the secret is out of the bag since a few months ago, you can bet that several companies are already trying to do this.
I think they need 1:1 mapping for direct manipulation of virtual objects as if you're there (e.g., writing, fine-grained targeting, constructing virtual objects) so that the brain won't get confused. Large movement like sword swing should be ok.
I'm sure companies like Sony is also looking into ultrasonic 3D imaging. This Christmas is going to be fun.
Actually your brain is not easily trick or confused. Your brain does just fine manipulating virtual objects with a few buttons and a couple of analog sticks. Adding in motion detection doesn't suddenly force a more stringent set of requirements when controls become more natural and mimicks the action of the user. Response time is more important than precision mapping.
jonabbey
03-Jun-2009, 16:12
Foot tracking is real important also. Think beyond fps games, etc, and instead picture stuff that the average casual person would like. For example, a product that teaches yoga or tai chi, and uses Natal to watch your limbs to critique/comment on your form. Or maybe a Karate School product that has a virtual teacher that comments on your moves, again based on limb tracking. Maybe a product that teaches juggling, and it watches how you do it and makes suggestions to improve it. Or maybe a personal trainer program that can watch how you use free weights or doing common exercises, and comments if your form is correct. Who knows what people will think of or what is possible.
Yoga is a lot more subtle than something like Natal could hope to critique, in my experience. I don't think that even the full motion tracking rigs with the little balls velcro-ed to the skin suits would do an adequate job of it.
Actually your brain is not easily trick or confused. Your brain does just fine manipulating virtual objects with a few buttons and a couple of analog sticks. Adding in motion detection doesn't suddenly force a more stringent set of requirements when controls become more natural and mimicks the action of the user. Response time is more important than precision mapping.
Isn't precise mapping a function of response time (and other parameters) ? If the timing is off, the manipulate would be off too (Hence, the confusion in the brain: "Why the $^#&$# did it fall again ? I thought I placed it correctly ?").
For MS solution we know really few, in fact we've just learnt today that it's was based on 3DV tech. Clearly Ms have been working a lot on the software layer but how Natal accelerate this software is in the dark. It could be some cheap CPU from the embedded space + a custom dsp + some RAM/ROM but it doesn't say much.
On the PS Eye side of thing educated member here hinted that the possibilities of the ps eye are mostly unexplored which makes me think that MS has significant advance on the software side of thing (hardware side outside of the cameras is not that relevant as cell as processing power in spare where as xenon could not afford too the extra work).
I don't think you can generalize that way. Sony is very advanced in the use of PS Eye software. MS should be more advanced in Natal-like (IR 3D imaging) platform/SDK.
As archie4oz pointed out, they were prepared to demo but the confirmation came late. 3DV camera was (close to) going to market, so they should be very ready. That's why I was surpised to hear a 2010 release date, instead of a 2009 one. My sense is MS will push to release it in 2009 with partial functionality.Natal is not based on 3DV (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/e3-natal-not-derived-from-3dv) tech, anyway it looks like they have been working on the problem for a while both hardware and software side.
The Sony demoes are actually pretty refined given that they work very well. It's the packaging that s*cks.
I agree the tech is of unmatched precision and works wich lead me to think that the tech has been working on for a while whereas some demo looks like they have been done over night.
That's strange imho and not very sony like, was the project on the verge to be set-aside?
Who knows the important point now is that the tech will reach constumers somewhere in 2010. I can't wait for the next big shows this year and hear more on both sony and MS "motion thingy".
obonicus
03-Jun-2009, 16:26
Yes, you should definitely watch the full demo. Here's some of it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5DHgYz-HpA&feature=related
And don't forget, Microsoft sent out SDKs to publishers - this is much further along than some people seem to think.
They're sending out SDKs to publishers the day of the conference. I said this in the tech forum (the link to the source is there), but according to Keighley this is Fall 2010 at best. It's further along if people think, say, that all MS has is proof of concept. It's not quite as far along if people think this will be releasing this year.
Natal is not based on 3DV (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/e3-natal-not-derived-from-3dv) tech, anyway it looks like they have been working on the problem for a while both hardware and software side.
Ah, I stand corrected. So MS's technologies may indeed be not ready in 2009. Perhaps the mapping to 3D points is the key innovation (I seem to recall 3DV using slices of 2D images, instead of 3D mesh).
I agree the tech is of unmatched precision and works wich lead me to think that the tech has been working on for a while whereas some demo looks like they have been done over night.
That's strange imho and not very sony like, was the project on the verge to be set-aside?
I doubt it. PS Eye researches have been on-going for a while now. Assuming they are not rigged, the live demoes cannot be done from ground up overnight if it must guarantee to work on stage. It's realtime 3D input. They won't even know the stage condition back in the lab. Kaz publicly said that he's interested in augmented reality: http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1271750&postcount=10
Shifty Geezer
03-Jun-2009, 16:34
Okay, I'm too late to the party so my contributions are already prboably covered among these many posts. Still...
It's funny to see how the worm has turned. I see parallels here with E3'05, where MS showed what they had, and Sony showed what they hoped to have. this time, MS is showing a lot of hopeful lifestyle footage, while Sony are showing what they've got. The presenter really was nervous, wasn't he! He must have been practically crying during MS's conference! They pulled it back in the end though, showing a good case for the pro's of their system.
In summary, my appraisal is MS's system is by far the most elegant and intuitive, and the one people will take most readily to. Not sure when it'll be ready. I'm also not sure how it compares in some aspects. eg. Firing the bow, the camera could track the hands but if the release was occluded by the forward arm, the bow wouldn't fire. It also had quite a lag evident - not a game killer, but still a small barrier to immersion. The PS3 solution does look nerdy, but the tracking was instantaneous. They didn't show how much player motion they were following versus just tracking the widgets. The idea of buttons makes sense - theirs was a good argument about how you need a trigger to fire a gun. Nothing at all stopping MS releasing a versatile remote to work with their system though.
We need more examples of fine-control from Natal to compare motion performance. At the moment, what I've seen places the motion control advantage with PS3, intuitiveness with Natal. Also many of Natal's abilites shown are readily doable on other systems, but MS were the ones to show it and get the cred. Kudos to them! At least they're working on it and showing some benefits. Sony have had years to produce working systems and dared to release concept vids, but they delivered nothing. MS has given them a swift kick up the rear.
As for Nintendo, they're ahead with install base and reputation, but behind in technology. Which doesn't much matter, because they have a product to sell while everyone else is only dishing up promises!
Shifty Geezer
03-Jun-2009, 16:40
Foot tracking is real important also. Think beyond fps games, etc, and instead picture stuff that the average casual person would like. For example, a product that teaches yoga or tai chi, and uses Natal to watch your limbs to critique/comment on your form.Do we have anywhere a report on what exactly Natal can distinguish/track? They superimposed the skeleton in the demo. Can it follow feet etc.?
Also, it just occured t me, if you can determine a player from their background in an image, you could map a 3D skeleton to it as we know the human proportions, and using inverse kinematics along with some 3D mapping (PS3motes) should be able to derive a good pose. The chief problem there is probably background extraction!
Do we have anywhere a report on what exactly Natal can distinguish/track? They superimposed the skeleton in the demo. Can it follow feet etc.?
It looks like it can track quiet some things (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/e3-project-natal-hands-on)
Most relevant parts are about burnout played hand free and ricochet.
Scott_Arm
03-Jun-2009, 16:47
Do we have anywhere a report on what exactly Natal can distinguish/track? They superimposed the skeleton in the demo. Can it follow feet etc.?
Also, it just occured t me, if you can determine a player from their background in an image, you could map a 3D skeleton to it as we know the human proportions, and using inverse kinematics along with some 3D mapping (PS3motes) should be able to derive a good pose. The chief problem there is probably background extraction!
Yeah, it follows your total body, but how accurately no one knows.
This blog linked earlier is about the closest I've seen to detailing how it works, but the info is very sparse:
http://procrastineering.blogspot.com/2009/06/project-natal.html
So somehow out of the point cloud they distinguish the human figure and then use a simplified skeletal body to resolve movements and track the user? They pick points of interest out of the cloud to build the skeletal framework. According to the blog, that's the real magic of the solution.
Shifty Geezer
03-Jun-2009, 16:59
If it's a software solution, sounds like MS have trumped everyone! They'll have the working system and patents to limit other people. Still makes me wonder why the development is XB360 first. :???: Then again, Natal will be a PC system won't it, working in Media PCs etc. So as a broad MS interface development, huge RnD towards the MS future, it makes sense.
If they made it too sophisticated, they may be vulnerable to a partial solution this fall. This may actually drive Sony and Nintendo to step up their next-level motion sensing marketing and projects this Christmas (Oh goodie !).
Some of the applications can be approximated using other approaches (without the 3D mesh).
This article is worse the read (even if I linked him already in the tech section), really worse it (http://venturebeat.com/2009/06/02/microsoft-games-executive-describes-origins-of-project-natal-game-controls/)
It's still unclear if some work is done in the "thing" or by the 360 it self.
goonergaz
03-Jun-2009, 17:08
erm...OK, watched Milo and the 2 'family' videos - the staged one with the racing game where the dad changes tyres (among others) and the 'live' one where mum does a painting (whilst family are sitting watching). I also watched the live painting demo...not seen anything yet that looks vastly better than eyetoy?
Are there any other demos? So far all I can think is 'eyetoy 3' - from all the fuss I was expecting this to replace controllers? I must be missing something...they also keep stressing 'no more controllers' which would imply no extra buttons?
scooby_dooby
03-Jun-2009, 17:17
I don't really get the bickering over which of thse is better, they seem to have some fairly stark differences here:
Natal:
- Great for user interface/interaction with the system itself, and media playback.
- Very limited for gaming, no buttons to control anything will totally limit the type of games you can play with it.
- Probably easier to sell as it only requires one periph', and has a cool factor totally unmatched by Sony's offering.
PSMC:
- Much much better for actual gaming
- Far more accuracy/precision and can have actual butttons to control games. Far more potential here from a gaming standpoint
- Will suffer from a major 'been there done that' perception, as it appears very similar to what the Wii is doing. Not much differentiaion here to the casual.
- Faces an uphill battle because of costs (relative to wii), and the fact you need two peripherals for it to work.
- May benefit from it's similarity to the Wii, can port over Wii games.
So, to me:
User interface/cool-factor/probablity of success: Winner Natal
Precision/Control/in-game usage: Winner PSMC
I don't really think PSMC has a great chance to succeed because it's too similar to what is already offered, and it doesn't really do anything that is going to excite people en masse. I think it's an awesome control scheme (both the Archery, and Painting demo's were way better than the MS or Nintendo equivalents), but I don't think it'll take off.
Natal, I think will be succesful, just because of the futuristic interface, and ability to interact with your console as though it's the year 2030 instead of 2010. For that alone, adoption is going to spread pretty quickly. Friends are going to come over, see it in action, and WANT IT!
You forgot about PS Eye. Also, I'm not bickering about the controller techs. This is just a discussion.
It would seem that by tracking proxy indicators (e.g., movement, color, 2D shapes), you can achieve many similar applications, may be even cheaper e.g., Instead of pinching, do a larger grain 2D gestures (fist, open palm, V-fingers, thumbs up/down/left/right).
Some applications like recognizing drawing on paper (EyePet) do not need a 3D mesh to begin with.
The missing pieces are (at least):
* Scanning real world 3D objects: The system may not care about the exact shape/size of the object in the mean time. Using a scanned skate board or guitar doesn't make a big difference (Using the real skate board may be more useful). Projecting your favorite skateboard in-game is attractive too, but that can be done in v2.0 next year.
* 3D full body tracking. Can be approximated like what PS Eye is doing now. There are very little use for accurate 3D foot tracking at the moment.
* The big problem is seeing in the dark for some applications. Again, next year.
* Detailed and fast finger tracking. Next time. Not sure if Natal can do this too.
scooby_dooby
03-Jun-2009, 17:27
You forgot about PS Eye. Also, I'm not bickering about the controller techs. This is just a discussion.
Ya, a discussion formed out of necessity because all the bickering that basically ruined the Press Conference thread.
Not sure how I forgot the PSEye, it doesn't do what Natal does, if it can than that's a HUGE oversight by Sony not to include Gesture/Voice controls in the PS3 XMB.
Ya, a discussion formed out of necessity because all the bickering that basically ruined the Press Conference thread.
That's individual behaviour. It's still a discussion since ideas and tech points are deliberated and debated.
...
The other important thing is marketing (e.g., whether they will bundle the controller with the console).
goonergaz
03-Jun-2009, 17:28
I don't get what is so futuristic? All I see is a load of eye-toy type demos and a staged presentation that could have been completely scripted - and by the sounds of it I'm not alone:
"The Milo demo was partially being manipulated by a developer who was sitting nearby, and I couldn't tell if he was merely calibrating the game or how much he was pulling its strings."
I'd love to see something futuristic, but we already have games with voice recognition, surely the Milo thing could be done on eye-toy? What aspect of is can't?
It's a serious question!
*If* this is the case, it may be more because the developers and the logistics need time (e.g., price needs to drop further). Technically speaking, a partial Natal (just the original 3DV functionality) should work.
You only get one chance to make a good first impression. MS would be remarkably stupid if they released Natal with "partial functionality" (eg, not very good compared to its potential). Especially if Sony isn't launching til 2010 themselves.
In a lot of ways, these motion controllers are like a new console launch. I wouldn't be surprised if MS and Sony time it to release concurrently, or close to.
scooby_dooby
03-Jun-2009, 17:32
I don't get what is so futuristic? All I see is a load of eye-toy type demos and a staged presentation that could have been completely scripted - and by the sounds of it I'm not alone:
"The Milo demo was partially being manipulated by a developer who was sitting nearby, and I couldn't tell if he was merely calibrating the game or how much he was pulling its strings."
I'd love to see something futuristic, but we already have games with voice recognition, surely the Milo thing could be done on eye-toy? What aspect of is can't?
It's a serious question!
In terms of interfacing with your console.
For example, I want to stream some video's off my PC from the Xbox:
- turn on Xbox, sit on couch (don't bother trying to find controller that is probably lodged in my cushions)
- Tell Xbox to "Show Videos" > "PC"
- Using only hand gestures, navigate to video, quick point to begin playing
- Phone rings, say "Pause", get up answer phone
- Sit down, say "Play", enjoy your movie.
Come on... that's cool, that pretty futuristic, that's somethine people will remember when they see it in action.
Sony is in the market already with PS Eye. Many of the Natal applications can be done here. The waggle controller gives it more functionality vis-a-vis Wii.
In terms of interfacing with your console.
For example, I want to stream some video's off my PC from the Xbox:
- turn on Xbox, sit on couch (don't bother trying to find controller that is probably lodged in my cushions)
- Tell Xbox to "Show Videos" > "PC"
- Using only hand gestures, navigate to video, quick point to begin playing
- Phone rings, say "Pause", get up answer phone
- Sit down, say "Play", enjoy your movie.
Come on... that's cool, that pretty futuristic, that's somethine people will remember when they see it in action.
Doable in PS Eye if lighting condition is good. If I were Sony, I'd just look into the "seeing in the dark" issue.
scooby_dooby
03-Jun-2009, 17:34
That's individual behaviour. It's still a discussion since ideas and tech points are deliberated and debated.
I know... what I said was I didn't understand the 'bickering', not that the entire discussion was bickering :razz:
scooby_dooby
03-Jun-2009, 17:35
Doable in PS Eye if lighting condition is good.
Then what a major missed opportunity for Sony.
It's kinda like whoever implements the idea first is going to be associated with it, even if it is technically possible on the other console.
It doesn't really matter what it can do, it matters what it does. Software is everything.
Who knows, Sony has lots of time, maybe they'll build dash support for it into the PS3 by launch. I have no problems with borrowing ideas if they're good ones, I think it's the smart decision actually.
- Very limited for gaming, no buttons to control anything will totally limit the type of games you can play with it.
Again, I don't understand this complaint. Natal can easily and quite obviously augment other control systems, including devices with buttons. I expect it will by the time it releases next year. It's quite a revenue stream...
Then what a major missed opportunity for Sony.
Doable in theory and practical in reality are very different things. Especially regarding PSEye. That's why no PSEye games actually took off.
Then what a major missed opportunity for Sony.
That's what we have been complaining all these years. :) The "no remote" UI has been talked about on B3D since PS Eye launched.
Then again, the PS3 is expensive.
They have another shot this year being alone, and potentially cheaper.
PS Eye didn't take off because the only full game that use it is Eye of Judgment (a niche game), and Sony didn't market the concept fully too. They deserve a few kicks in the nuts for this.
Crossbar
03-Jun-2009, 17:39
I donīt think we have seen Microsofts complete solution yet as I expressed in the Natal thread. I expect MS to introduce wands as well. Similar to what Sony has done by first introducing the PSEye and now later on they are introducing the wands.
Natal could easily be compared to the PS Eye with an added z-component, they both have a microphone array as well.
I think Natal will really shine in games like "In the movies" which didnīt work well due to the limitations of a 2-D camera. We will see amazing things and maybe Spielberg will come up with some really good ideas.
Games like this
http://i44.tinypic.com/2ylljrs.gif
are not really that different from what already exist for the Eyetoy, and will probably be as popular in the casual segment.
Milo was a mind-boggling demo even though it probably was extremely staged in every detail. However, the 3D interaction was not really the most impressive part of that demo IMO. To me it was the speech recognition and the AI. But to make it all work together and make a complete game built on the technology will be a tough task. Will be interesting to see if they will bother to make it work for any non-english speaking market and to see how well it handle strong accents.
I think the Sony solution have been in development for a long time and it may even have set the spec. of the PS Eye i.e. the microphone array and its ability to detect ultra sonic sound, light sensitivity, frame rate etc.. The Sony controller patent (http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-adv.html&r=11&p=1&f=G&l=50&d=PG01&S1=((%22sony+computer%22.AS.)+AND+2008{D4%20}.PD.)&OS=AN/%22sony+computer%22+AND+PD/$/$/2008&RS=(AN/%22sony+computer%22+AND+PD/2008$$)) was filed June 6, 2007, the Playstation Eye was introduced in late october 2007.
I think Sonys focus has been to get a low BOM for the full solution and that is one of the reasons why they didnīt opt for a 3d camera which we know theyīve had in their labs.
Sony probably already has a decent margin on the PS Eye, it will be really interesting to see what the price of the wand will be, if they will sell them in pairs and bundled with different games? If there will be a PS3 bundle with camera and wands etc. it may turn out to be pretty price competetive with the Wii HD when it launches 2010 or 2011.
scooby_dooby
03-Jun-2009, 17:41
Again, I don't understand this complaint. Natal can easily and quite obviously augment other control systems, including devices with buttons. I expect it will by the time it releases next year. It's quite a revenue stream...
I did think of that after I posted though, there's nothing to stop MS from utilizing the built in remote, or someone could even hold a controller I suppose.
Still, if you're expecting any decent number of titles to come out that use buttons, you sort of need a standard interface, not some "add on" that x% of people are going to buy. Otherwise what youre talking about is game specific bundles, which are not only expensive, but usually totally gimmicky.
Isn't precise mapping a function of response time (and other parameters) ? If the timing is off, the manipulate would be off too (Hence, the confusion in the brain: "Why the $^#&$# did it fall again ? I thought I placed it correctly ?").
1:1 mapping requires precise response, but precise response doesn't require 1:1 mapping.
In a virtual sword fights maintaining 1:1 mapping introduces a lot of limitations. One would be weapon variety in terms of weight. 1:1 mapping would require that a 40 pound axe responds as well as swords that weigh just a few pounds unless the game came with accessories of varying weights to maintain realism, but that would kill your pockets in terms of shipping costs (LOL) if you were to order this game online.
1:1 mapping would constantly have to be broken unless you as a game dev eliminate any interaction of the gamer's virtual sword within the virtual world. You can't force a gamer to limit their range of motion, so how do you handle one to one mapping during a block where in the virtual world where the sword has been forced to stop but in the physical world the gamer carries to strike throughout its full range of motion. You either have to your virtual AI re establish 1:1 mapping by reorient itself to mimick the gamer or encourage the gamer to re establish 1:1 mapping by reorienting himself. If you have a fast action sword fight you may end up with too many instances of this happening which would kill the fluidity in what we expect of a sword fight.
Yeah... I realized what you're referring to after I posted. My original statement was "direct manipulation" not "direct mapping". If I need to manipulate the objects convincingly (not just swinging), then response time and precise changes is a critical part of the feedback.
Shifty Geezer
03-Jun-2009, 17:55
Not sure how I forgot the PSEye, it doesn't do what Natal does, if it can than that's a HUGE oversight by Sony not to include Gesture/Voice controls in the PS3 XMB.It doesn't do 3D, but can do everything else (although accurate player following is much ahrdware without the 3D data to support it, so let's say some fo the motion interfacing is unattainable). There was a vid a while back of potential applications of PSEye including both concept and WIP footage that covered a lot of this. They included a microphone array in PSEye exactly for the voice aspect. Yes, Sony are dumb! After introducing EyeToy, they've done next to nothing, instead of driving this aspect forwards so MS's showing wouldn't have looked so futuristic.
Edit : Here's the concept vid
ZwwbkzEACwsSome stuff looks farfetched, like the 3D armour. Maybe someone else can remember the original source and claims?
Scott_Arm
03-Jun-2009, 18:08
erm...OK, watched Milo and the 2 'family' videos - the staged one with the racing game where the dad changes tyres (among others) and the 'live' one where mum does a painting (whilst family are sitting watching). I also watched the live painting demo...not seen anything yet that looks vastly better than eyetoy?
Are there any other demos? So far all I can think is 'eyetoy 3' - from all the fuss I was expecting this to replace controllers? I must be missing something...they also keep stressing 'no more controllers' which would imply no extra buttons?
There is also a demo at E3 using a modified burnout paradise. Kind of like the racing in the staged video but minus the gear shifting.
EyePet E3 2009 trailer: http://gamevideos.1up.com/video/id/24989
EDIT:
ZwwbkzEACws
Some stuff looks farfetched, like the 3D armour. Maybe someone else can remember the original source and claims?
To be fair to the PS Eye team, after the initial 2D motion tracking technology, they also implemented:
* Head tracking (Omega tracking)
* Color tracking (3D tracking is useless here)
* Drawing recognition (Forming 3D objects by drawing multiple 2D parts).
Someone also ported Johnny's IR tracking to PS Eye last year.
The key issue is their price point, and market focus (Where do they want to shoot ?).
I don't really get the bickering over which of thse is better, they seem to have some fairly stark differences here:
Natal:
- Great for user interface/interaction with the system itself, and media playback.
- Very limited for gaming, no buttons to control anything will totally limit the type of games you can play with it.
- Probably easier to sell as it only requires one periph', and has a cool factor totally unmatched by Sony's offering.
PSMC:
- Much much better for actual gaming
- Far more accuracy/precision and can have actual butttons to control games. Far more potential here from a gaming standpoint
- Will suffer from a major 'been there done that' perception, as it appears very similar to what the Wii is doing. Not much differentiaion here to the casual.
- Faces an uphill battle because of costs (relative to wii), and the fact you need two peripherals for it to work.
- May benefit from it's similarity to the Wii, can port over Wii games.
So, to me:
User interface/cool-factor/probablity of success: Winner Natal
Precision/Control/in-game usage: Winner PSMC
I don't really think PSMC has a great chance to succeed because it's too similar to what is already offered, and it doesn't really do anything that is going to excite people en masse. I think it's an awesome control scheme (both the Archery, and Painting demo's were way better than the MS or Nintendo equivalents), but I don't think it'll take off.
Natal, I think will be succesful, just because of the futuristic interface, and ability to interact with your console as though it's the year 2030 instead of 2010. For that alone, adoption is going to spread pretty quickly. Friends are going to come over, see it in action, and WANT IT!
Pretty nicely put, still I think that Natal can be successful in quiet some games but it's clear that fast pace games as FPS/TPS platformer/adventure are out of his range without bringing extra accessories.
The key point could be trading higher immersion and the cost of slower paced gameplay I can see a bunch of possibilities if your accept the trade offs.
Here some ideas for a slow pace game (it could be a oblivion type of fps).
The aiming reticule could moved by tracking your head movement.
Then the rest of the action could be achieved by some pre define movements of both hands and arms .
here some hand positions that could be used/tracked (think of a jutsu system as per Naruto... :lol: ):
closed hand (tied fist not sure about how you would describe in english)
closed hand + the thumb sticking out (two possibilites per hand if needed)
closed hand + the forefinger sticking out
closed hand + the forefinger sticking out + the thumb sticking out
open hand (finger all stuck together)
open hand + thumb sticking out (two possibilites per hand if needed)
Open hand all finger spread out
Then depending on the action allocated to each stance you could mix in forearm movements.
In pratice it could be (random example):
Aiming: head movements
Movements: left hand
Don't move/neutral: closed fist
Go backward: closed fist+the thumb sticking out
Forward: closed hand + the forefinger sticking out + the thumb sticking out
Run: closed hand + the forefinger sticking out
Action/camera: right hand
Camera movements: open hand + thumb sticking out + forearm movement
Selection/action: closed hand + the forefinger sticking out + the thumb sticking out + clicking motion
Switch between mode (think combat vs exploration vs spell casting): Open hand all finger spread out.
Once in combat/spell casting mode you can go for motion mapping to trigger specific spell/attack
I could see my self playing a game like this if the pace is slow down. It put pressure on the character own IA, the character must be able to deal some low level action by it self (think kind of assasin creed) to let you focus on higher level problem.
obonicus
03-Jun-2009, 18:43
Disturbing, as always. Sony really needs to start bundling the PS Eye in PS3s.
deathindustrial
03-Jun-2009, 19:05
You only get one chance to make a good first impression. MS would be remarkably stupid if they released Natal with "partial functionality" (eg, not very good compared to its potential). Especially if Sony isn't launching til 2010 themselves.
I would argue that Microsoft has a long history of releasing partial / poorly implemented projects but then incrementally improving them over time. Though this mostly happens with their software (IIS for one), a recent hardware case would be the Zune players. You could also go as far to say the Xbox360 is an example of that (massive failure rate with the first few iterations of the console).
So it is quite likely that Natal will be released in some half-assed form but then updated over time or morphed into some other product.
It's not like Microsoft Bob was the end point, Clippy annoyed people for years after that.
=)
As an aside, I am seeing a lot of unexpected negativity to Natal on a what tends to be pro-Microsoft enthusiast gaming site (EvilAvatar). The running joke there is that Milo is a "pedophile simulator". Microsoft is going to have to show a solid application that appeals to their core audience or switch gears entirely over to the media side of things with the 360 if this is going to become a core part of the experience.
And there is also the privacy issue surrounding having a 3D capable monitoring device in everyone's home. Marketers and Pentagon control freaks must be drooling over Natal. . .
Cheers
L. Scofield
03-Jun-2009, 19:23
You guys are missing the fact that you can still be in your couch using a regular controller and then make specific gestures for the camera when required. Both control schemes are not mutually exclusive as you put it.
Shifty Geezer
03-Jun-2009, 19:30
Indeed, head tracking for a camera in combo with the standard control would be of benefit to the next FPS on XB360 (same on PS3!). Natal can benefit traditional gamers as well as attracting simlistic casuals. I suppose the worrying thing is that developers continue to shun possibilities for whatever reasons and the market splits into conventional game with conventional controls and lightweight games with motion control.
obonicus
03-Jun-2009, 19:31
You guys are missing the fact that you can still be in your couch using a regular controller and then make specific gestures for the camera when required. Both control schemes are not mutually exclusive as you put it.
That's true, and I've heard that used as a justification of sorts. Or that you can issue voice commands. But... I'm still not sure why that's desirable, or in the second case, new. Ubisoft even released a full-price, commercial game where the main gameplay innovation was extensive use of voice commands. I don't really recall anyone caring particularly much.
I can wave my hands at the screen, but why would I want to? Pointing at the screen is more reasonable, though, but no one seems to really have addressed whether the Natal can do that.
I did think of that after I posted though, there's nothing to stop MS from utilizing the built in remote, or someone could even hold a controller I suppose.
Still, if you're expecting any decent number of titles to come out that use buttons, you sort of need a standard interface, not some "add on" that x% of people are going to buy. Otherwise what youre talking about is game specific bundles, which are not only expensive, but usually totally gimmicky.
And I'm saying it may even come out with a one-handed controller or so. That wasn't necessary for the demo because the technology to wirelessly press buttons already exists. ;)
Love_In_Rio
03-Jun-2009, 19:34
Then what a major missed opportunity for Sony.
It's kinda like whoever implements the idea first is going to be associated with it, even if it is technically possible on the other console.
It doesn't really matter what it can do, it matters what it does. Software is everything.
Who knows, Sony has lots of time, maybe they'll build dash support for it into the PS3 by launch. I have no problems with borrowing ideas if they're good ones, I think it's the smart decision actually.
Sony miss many opportunities, above all taking into account it counts with researches as good as Richard Marksī. See this demo from several years ago with the PS2 Eyetoy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpNdkm9s8AY
I supposse Richard will be very happy now that has seen a window open to see in the market some of his researches and i hope now he receives more investment ant be taken more seriously inside Sony. Its clear he loves his job.
What i canīt understand is how Sony didnīt know certainly that Microsoft would show its tech. I knew weeks ago!.Too many blue collars without having games as a hobby...
obonicus
03-Jun-2009, 19:44
And I'm saying it may even come out with a one-handed controller or so. That wasn't necessary for the demo because the technology to wirelessly press buttons already exists. ;)
Also because the gist of it was that Microsoft was introducing the controller-less controller. To go 'oh yeah, to actually play a game you'd want to play you need to hook a different peripheral up wirelessly' would seriously undermine their angle.
obonicus
03-Jun-2009, 19:46
What i canīt understand is how Sony didnīt know certainly that Microsoft would show its tech. I knew weeks ago!.Too many blue collars without having games as a hobby...
Well, according to archie4oz they had an inkling, but weren't going to demo anything unless MS made the first move. And really, now I'm hearing about unanounced PS3 games going to still be announced in E3.
scooby_dooby
03-Jun-2009, 19:47
And I'm saying it may even come out with a one-handed controller or so. That wasn't necessary for the demo because the technology to wirelessly press buttons already exists. ;)
Ya you're probably right, it only makes sense that it will come with some sort of small wand.
Hmm, it will need at least a dpad and trigger...maybe a couple A/B buttons..and a wrist strap... :lol:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpNdkm9s8AY
Hmm... I haven't seen that before. If this thing can run on PS2, Sony's eyes are going to light up with dollar signs if the curiosity sustains.
Would be interesting to see where Nintendo goes. With the Vitality sensor, they are going after internal body tracking. It will deepen their relationships with existing customers; especially if padded with some educational medical tips.
EDIT: Okay, video title says "EyeToy", so it is running on PS2.
Scott_Arm
03-Jun-2009, 19:59
I can wave my hands at the screen, but why would I want to? Pointing at the screen is more reasonable, though, but no one seems to really have addressed whether the Natal can do that.
Well, none of the Wii, PS3 or Natal can do accurate screen pointing, they just do relative movement to the camera/sensor. They are not aware of the actual screen you're using. So whether you're pointing with a hand or finger is irrelevant. You can't have 1:1 pointing at a specific spot on your television or projection screen. There is no reason that Natal shouldn't be able to do hand pointing.
Essentially you get exactly the same thing as "pointing" with the wiimote and the PS3 motion controller, the only difference being whether it can detect the rotation of your wrist like the others detection the rotation/angle of the controller.
obonicus
03-Jun-2009, 20:00
Hmm... I haven't seen that before. If this thing can run on PS2, Sony's eyes are going to light up with dollar signs if the curiosity sustains.
Would be interesting to see where Nintendo goes. With the Vitality sensor, they are going after internal body tracking. It will deepen their relationships with existing customers; especially if padded with some educational medical tips.
EDIT: Okay, video title says "EyeToy", so it is running on PS2.
Wasn't he holding a wireless Playstation controller (aka a sixaxis/dualshock 3)?
It doesn't do 3D, but can do everything else (although accurate player following is much ahrdware without the 3D data to support it, so let's say some fo the motion interfacing is unattainable). There was a vid a while back of potential applications of PSEye including both concept and WIP footage that covered a lot of this. They included a microphone array in PSEye exactly for the voice aspect. Yes, Sony are dumb! After introducing EyeToy, they've done next to nothing, instead of driving this aspect forwards so MS's showing wouldn't have looked so futuristic.
Edit : Here's the concept vid
ZwwbkzEACwsSome stuff looks farfetched, like the 3D armour. Maybe someone else can remember the original source and claims?
Its actually not that far fetched but not without certain quirks. You only need to know the display dimensions and camera position relative to the display and it would be possible to recreate the concept.
First you would need to locate the gamer's or user's position relative to the display then create a mirror image of the person then display that mirrored image of the person on screen using the menus or objects on screen as a point of reference.
The quirks being mirrored images or words on your shirts being displayed on screen.
Shifty Geezer
03-Jun-2009, 20:04
Sony miss many opportunities, above all taking into account it counts with researches as good as Richard Marksī. See this demo from several years ago with the PS2 Eyetoy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpNdkm9s8AY
I hadn't seen that one before. Goodness, the travesty! 2 years old and the demo at E3 was little more than this! It also explains the low-quality of the PS3 demos - programmer art!
Wasn't he holding a wireless Playstation controller (aka a sixaxis/dualshock 3)?
Where ? What the hell is "NAVGTR B-roll" ?
Shifty Geezer
03-Jun-2009, 20:08
Well, none of the Wii, PS3 or Natal can do accurate screen pointing, they just do relative movement to the camera/sensor. They are not aware of the actual screen you're using. So whether you're pointing with a hand or finger is irrelevant. You can't have 1:1 pointing at a specific spot on your television or projection screen. There is no reason that Natal shouldn't be able to do hand pointing.It would need to be able to accurately determine where you hand is pointing. If you're pointing straight into the screen, the z data is going to be very localised. Getting a reasonable inference of direction from that, enough for a shooter, is going to be hard. The advantage of Wiimote type devices if the actual orientation is known. Calibrating that with device position, you can get a very accurate direction of the device. The pointing on Wii is very good, though wobbly. The PS3 demo was also very accurate. I dont' know that Natal will be able to have a person write with just their wrist, where that will be possible with the conventional solutions.
Well, none of the Wii, PS3 or Natal can do accurate screen pointing, they just do relative movement to the camera/sensor.
That's completely false. Even if you're talking about the exact dimension so of your own TV screen, that's just a matter of a quick four point calibration. For precistion, check him writing at 5:18 or something like that:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiX-26VL4bM
obonicus
03-Jun-2009, 20:10
Where ? What the hell is "NAVGTR B-roll" ?
Actually, you're right. I saw the wire on the controller. As an edit, Dr. Marks isn't a great public speaker, I have to say. It looked like he was nervous because of E3, but he looks nervous on the other video, too.
Scott_Arm
03-Jun-2009, 20:19
That's completely false. Even if you're talking about the exact dimension so of your own TV screen, that's just a matter of a quick four point calibration. For precistion, check him writing at 5:18 or something like that:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiX-26VL4bM
Do the Wii or Eye Toy have a "quick four point calibration"?
As for the writing, it is still all done with the movement of those balls relative to the camera. He isn't pointing exactly where he wants to write on the screen. There is a cursor on the screen and he moves it to write. The angle of the pencil is adjusted by the gyros in the controller. The standard Wiimote could do exactly the same thing, and the Motion Plus can do it with cleaner accuracy. I don't see any reason why air writing couldn't be done with Natal. Whether it has the precision to draw nearly straight lines is to be seen, but by using your hand to move a cursor on the screen you could do exactly the same thing.
Do the Wii or Eye Toy have a "quick four point calibration"?
Any controller that can point to screen has to have calibration (though 2-point calibration is probably enough, 3 is definitely enough).
You also need calibration (or similar input) if you are going to have a character that fakes interactions (such as looking at you) ala Milo.
Scott_Arm
03-Jun-2009, 20:27
It would need to be able to accurately determine where you hand is pointing. If you're pointing straight into the screen, the z data is going to be very localised. Getting a reasonable inference of direction from that, enough for a shooter, is going to be hard. The advantage of Wiimote type devices if the actual orientation is known. Calibrating that with device position, you can get a very accurate direction of the device. The pointing on Wii is very good, though wobbly. The PS3 demo was also very accurate. I dont' know that Natal will be able to have a person write with just their wrist, where that will be possible with the conventional solutions.
I agree that a shooter would be hard, but I really don't think this thing is intended to be used for first person shooters. I'd expect a peripheral for a game like that. But in general pointing should be doable.
I also agree that writing with just your wrist would be hard. But you could air write with your hand using broader movement.
The PS3 motion demo was hardly done with the guys wrist. His gestures are fairly large. I'm assuming it could be calibrated for smaller gestures and it was just done that way for emphasis on stage.
In the same youtube video he is showing point and shoot. That's true shooting ... you see some vibration but don't mistake that for inaccuracy, it's actually recoil simulation (they probably should have left that out). This is really precise. I'm surprised you can't see it.
Scott_Arm
03-Jun-2009, 20:32
Any controller that can point to screen has to have calibration (though 2-point calibration is probably enough, 3 is definitely enough).
You also need calibration (or similar input) if you are going to have a character that fakes interactions (such as looking at you) ala Milo.
The Wii definitely isn't calibrated to the screen. It is calibrated to the emitter("sensor" bar). By that you could say it knows roughly where the screen it, but it knows nothing of the screen dimensions. You can't actually point the remote at a specific spot on the screen and expect the cursor to be placed accordingly. It is all based on position relative to the sensor bar.
My assumption, which I'm very confident of, is that the PS3 motion controller will be essentially exactly the same, except everything will be calibrated to the camera. Maybe it will ask you how big your screen is, what the aspect ratio is, how many inches the camera is positioned in front, behind, above and below the tv, but I doubt it.
If it needs to know more about the world (e.g., exact screen position), the app should be able to pop up additional calibration screen. It's like that for PS Eye/EyeToy applications too.
Scott_Arm
03-Jun-2009, 20:40
In the same youtube video he is showing point and shoot. That's true shooting ... you see some vibration but don't mistake that for inaccuracy, it's actually recoil simulation (they probably should have left that out). This is really precise. I'm surprised you can't see it.
What I'm seeing is exactly the same thing the Wii does. He is moving a cursor on the screen by moving the controller. It has nothing to do with pointing at exactly at the point on the screen he wants to shoot. In fact, it doesn't look like he's pointing. I'm not complaining about that. I'm just explaining how it works. It should work great for shooters. It worked very nicely in Medal of Honor: Heroes 2 for the Wii and that was with the vanilla controller, not even motion plus.
I'm just saying, you should be able to do pointing with Natal using your hand since it isn't necessary to have to point at exact spots on the screen. All of the other solutions do it the same way with motion relative to the camera. Essentially you are moving a cursor on the screen in 2D space, and I can't think of a reason you wouldn't be able to do that.
ShadowRunner
03-Jun-2009, 20:43
Do the Wii or Eye Toy have a "quick four point calibration"?
As for the writing, it is still all done with the movement of those balls relative to the camera. He isn't pointing exactly where he wants to write on the screen. There is a cursor on the screen and he moves it to write. The angle of the pencil is adjusted by the gyros in the controller. The standard Wiimote could do exactly the same thing, and the Motion Plus can do it with cleaner accuracy. I don't see any reason why air writing couldn't be done with Natal. Whether it has the precision to draw nearly straight lines is to be seen, but by using your hand to move a cursor on the screen you could do exactly the same thing.
The PSMC pointing works by using the location of the controller relative to the screen along with the angle of the wand. Natal will be fine for tracking the location of a finger i guess but working out where the finger is pointing without gyroscopes will be beyond its abilitys i think.
Naboomagnoli
03-Jun-2009, 20:44
The Wii definitely isn't calibrated to the screen. It is calibrated to the emitter("sensor" bar). By that you could say it knows roughly where the screen it, but it knows nothing of the screen dimensions. You can't actually point the remote at a specific spot on the screen and expect the cursor to be placed accordingly. It is all based on position relative to the sensor bar.
My assumption, which I'm very confident of, is that the PS3 motion controller will be essentially exactly the same, except everything will be calibrated to the camera. Maybe it will ask you how big your screen is, what the aspect ratio is, how many inches the camera is positioned in front, behind, above and below the tv, but I doubt it.
Would that be so difficult though? It would only have to be a one-off calibration in the XMB and that's it, every game using the PSmotes would be calibrated. It could even take a picture of the room at that time and check whether the edges have moved, meaning the calibration may have changed and it could prompt you to recalibrate or carry on.
Maybe we should just move back to CRT's?
As long as Natal doesn't have the resolution to deal with finger movements, I just can't see it performing the same tasks as the WMP or PSmote without using some sort of additional control mechanism. The writing demo in the PS3 demo was not only of smaller wrist/hand movements than you'd expect from waving your wrist around in Natal, and with instantaneous feedback, but (crucially) with the ability to quickly and easily take the 'pen' off the 'page' between letters.
The Wii definitely isn't calibrated to the screen.
It is when the game wants to have better knowledge of screen.
Sometimes calibration is done in the background silently making assumptions on where character is pointing at. (For example a tutorial mission showing enemies one at a time).
In any case wii mote (the original) wasn't accurate enough apparently.
It is calibrated to the emitter("sensor" bar). By that you could say it knows roughly where the screen it, but it knows nothing of the screen dimensions. You can't actually point the remote at a specific spot on the screen and expect the cursor to be placed accordingly. It is all based on position relative to the sensor bar.
My assumption, which I'm very confident of, is that the PS3 motion controller will be essentially exactly the same, except everything will be calibrated to the camera.
My assumption is you are way wrong, as calibration, whether explicit or implicit, is very easy to do if you have accurate 3d readings.
bkilian
03-Jun-2009, 20:48
Do we have anywhere a report on what exactly Natal can distinguish/track? They superimposed the skeleton in the demo. Can it follow feet etc.?
Also, it just occured t me, if you can determine a player from their background in an image, you could map a 3D skeleton to it as we know the human proportions, and using inverse kinematics along with some 3D mapping (PS3motes) should be able to derive a good pose. The chief problem there is probably background extraction!I believe it actually does track skeletal movements. That's how they can continue to track someone even if they're partially occluded.
http://www.engadget.com/2009/06/03/project-natal-video-hands-on-impressions-and-further-details/
ShadowRunner
03-Jun-2009, 20:51
What I'm seeing is exactly the same thing the Wii does. He is moving a cursor on the screen by moving the controller. It has nothing to do with pointing at exactly at the point on the screen he wants to shoot. In fact, it doesn't look like he's pointing. I'm not complaining about that. I'm just explaining how it works. It should work great for shooters. It worked very nicely in Medal of Honor: Heroes 2 for the Wii and that was with the vanilla controller, not even motion plus.
I'm just saying, you should be able to do pointing with Natal using your hand since it isn't necessary to have to point at exact spots on the screen. All of the other solutions do it the same way with motion relative to the camera. Essentially you are moving a cursor on the screen in 2D space, and I can't think of a reason you wouldn't be able to do that.
There is a difference, this isnt just using the camera for positioning but also the 1:1 tracking the gyroscopes provide. Take a look at the flashlight demo, i cant see that being possible on either natal or wii.
I believe it actually does track skeletal movements. That's how they can continue to track someone even if they're partially occluded.
http://www.engadget.com/2009/06/03/project-natal-video-hands-on-impressions-and-further-details/
Could you also approximate the skeletal view in 2D since human structure is rather standard and rigid ? The question is whether you need to be very accurate for full body tracking.
The other focus would be finger/pointer level tracking for fine grain interaction.
Shifty Geezer
03-Jun-2009, 20:56
What I'm seeing is exactly the same thing the Wii does. He is moving a cursor on the screen by moving the controller. It has nothing to do with pointing at exactly at the point on the screen he wants to shoot.Not true. Wii already has 'point where you want to activate on the screen', present the moment you switch it on and use the interface with the pointer.
If you trace a line along the axis of the Wiimote or simlar controller, it intersects the screen at a point which is fairly accurately known. Natal doesn't look to have any suitable means to determine such an axis of direction for objects pointed mostly towards the screen.
Note this is different to air-writing. Air-writing, as you do with a sparkler firework (maybe only UK members undertand what that is?) will work fine by mapping hand position to screen position. This is achieved through XY displacement, but not XY rotation, which Wiimote and PSMC provide.
Sadly both GT and YT are down so I can't check the videos. I can't remember if the PSMC demo was all wrist action or arm action.
Shifty Geezer
03-Jun-2009, 20:58
Could you also approximate the skeletal view in 2D since human structure is rather standard and rigid ? The question is whether you need to be very accurate for full body tracking.It would be to some extent, if you can find the contours of the player. You can predict through IK where forwards of the body a hand would be if the dimensions of the arm were very narrow, for example. Face recognition provides enough clues to follow head motions, as demonstrated by Toshiba with their virtual makeover demo.
Scott_Arm
03-Jun-2009, 21:19
Not true. Wii already has 'point where you want to activate on the screen', present the moment you switch it on and use the interface with the pointer.
If you trace a line along the axis of the Wiimote or simlar controller, it intersects the screen at a point which is fairly accurately known. Natal doesn't look to have any suitable means to determine such an axis of direction for objects pointed mostly towards the screen.
I don't understnad what you mean. Which axis on the controller and which point on the screen?
I've almost never been able to point at any part of my screen and have the cursor appear at that point when using the Wii. All I know is that the Wii remote sees the sensor bar, but it does not see your screen at all. All it knows is whether the screen is above or below, but nothing else. Maybe you could calibrate to do accurate screen pointing, but I've never seen it used, and I've never seen it in game.
Note this is different to air-writing. Air-writing, as you do with a sparkler firework (maybe only UK members undertand what that is?) will work fine by mapping hand position to screen position. This is achieved through XY displacement, but not XY rotation, which Wiimote and PSMC provide.
Sadly both GT and YT are down so I can't check the videos. I can't remember if the PSMC demo was all wrist action or arm action.
That's true, there probably isn't any rotation, but as a simple pointer is that even important? I was only originally responding to the claim that Natal couldn't be used as a pointing device. I think roughly you could map any part of your body to XY movement to use as an XY cursor on screen, which is a pointer in the same way that the mouse is a pointer and the same way the Wii remote (in my experience) is a pointer.
goonergaz
03-Jun-2009, 21:24
I did think of that after I posted though, there's nothing to stop MS from utilizing the built in remote, or someone could even hold a controller I suppose.
except the fact they are pushing that you don't need controllers anymore.
that would be like releasing a controller that you can use as, say, a tennis racket in a tennis game - saying how great and 'realistic' it is - and then releasing a add-on that fixes it because it's wasn't good enough...
ShadowRunner
03-Jun-2009, 21:28
That's true, there probably isn't any rotation, but as a simple pointer is that even important? I was only originally responding to the claim that Natal couldn't be used as a pointing device. I think roughly you could map any part of your body to XY movement to use as an XY cursor on screen, which is a pointer in the same way that the mouse is a pointer and the same way the Wii remote (in my experience) is a pointer.
You dont point the wiimote by moving it on the xy axis though, your understanding of how these pointing devices are working is flawed. You can point in different directions with the wiimote wile keeping its xy position the same, its the angle the device is facing/pointing that makes it a pointer.
vBulletin® v3.8.6, Copyright ©2000-2013, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.