Old Discussion Thread for all 3 motion controllers

[Nesh]

Joker is far from the first to criticise Sony's lack of strategy or focus:
http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2010/03/how-sony-lost-its-way/#more-386052

http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/4/2009/03/IMG_2291.jpg
http://gizmodo.com/5163304/the-problem-with-sony-in-a-picture (http://gizmodo.com/5163304/the-problem-with-sony-in-a-
picture)



Eh? Thats a stupid example to prove that argument

[obonicus]

I can't wait for gizmodo to post Phillips own headphone lineup to show how they've lost their way.

[tha_con]

I think one of the biggest potential problems with Move is that Sony's trying to sell to the Wii market with the main selling point of improved technology and greater accuracy. The technology does look impressive, but the main values Wii's expanded audience care about are intuitive, accessible, and fun controls combined with content they enjoy. Technological superiority is not their focus at all, they just want something that has these other values and is "good enough" technically. If Sony can create unique experiences that appeal to them and aren't possible with Wii, or find a large portion of the Wii user base that are unsatisfied with Wii's technology, Move could be very successful in capturing that market. Otherwise, Sony's in for a big disappointment.

And what makes you think they're selling Move to the Wii Market, as opposed to opening up their existing PS3 households to bring more people around the console?

I think Move is more about getting your family in on PS3 at this point, than it is about getting Wii owners to move to PS3. I guess if you're caught up in the "console war" BS you'll have that opinion. I think it's pretty clear that Sony is trying to market to existing owners with a large majority of their games, and it doesn't look like they are trying to steal thunder from the Wii, so much as they are trying to sell Move and Move Software to existing owners. The PS3 userbase is large enough at this point that creating some compelling Wii-Like experiences can help to bring the family around the console.

I think the problem is people have the idea a console should do one thing and one thing only. The idea that Sony is trying to get across with the PS3 is that there CAN be a set top box in the living room. That you can have games, movies, music, and internet in one package. People seem to think this presents a lack of focus, rather than an attempt to change what we see a console for.

[Elan Tedronai]

joker is right. The management at sony are really clueless. They have no vision for the move. Basically they want to guide the consumer and dictate what they want when instead they should develop and create experiences the consumer wants.

precision is all well and good but what that's not what made the wii successful. It's the fun, accessible initutive software which targets almost all demographics

Sony needs a visionary like a kutaragi and harrison. Right now they are being followers when they should be innovating. The move has a lot of potential but sony is too timid, too clueless and generally useless on what to come up with it. Already people are writing it off because it looks like a wii knockoff. Where is the software that will convince wii owners to buy a ps3? i haven't seen it. The augmented reality stuff is pretty cool but where is the games for it? where, where, where?

If people compare the sony which launched the playstation 1 to the current sony you will be amazed at the difference. The marketing of 90s sony alone puts the current sony to shame. Forget everything else

[Elan Tedronai]

And what makes you think they're selling Move to the Wii Market, as opposed to opening up their existing PS3 households to bring more people around the console?

I think Move is more about getting your family in on PS3 at this point, than it is about getting Wii owners to move to PS3. I guess if you're caught up in the "console war" BS you'll have that opinion. I think it's pretty clear that Sony is trying to market to existing owners with a large majority of their games, and it doesn't look like they are trying to steal thunder from the Wii, so much as they are trying to sell Move and Move Software to existing owners. The PS3 userbase is large enough at this point that creating some compelling Wii-Like experiences can help to bring the family around the console.

I think the problem is people have the idea a console should do one thing and one thing only. The idea that Sony is trying to get across with the PS3 is that there CAN be a set top box in the living room. That you can have games, movies, music, and internet in one package. People seem to think this presents a lack of focus, rather than an attempt to change what we see a console for.


if sony is using the move to target ps3 audience then it's sony is really really and i mean really stupid. the ps3 audience are satisfied with their DS3.

[obonicus]

joker is right. ...

Sony needs a visionary like a kutaragi and harrison.

Except the real lost opportunity joker seems to be referring to happened when those guys were around.

[patsu]

...

It is okay to highlight precision as a differentiator, but it cannot be the only differentiator. Precision means very little out of context. For core gamers, that precision has to be compared against the traditional controller (tough !). But if the new Move controller can do say... RTS in the living room well, then it's clearly more than just precision. For casual gamers, they may not care about precision unless it is in the way of the gameplay. In which case, I'd call it "cannot be done on other controllers" (or "stinks on other controllers") instead of more precise. I suspect for most cases, Wiimote+ can match Move's motion sensing performance (but the former definitely cannot do PS Eye's color recognition for example).

I think one of the biggest potential problems with Move is that Sony's trying to sell to the Wii market with the main selling point of improved technology and greater accuracy. The technology does look impressive, but the main values Wii's expanded audience care about are intuitive, accessible, and fun controls combined with content they enjoy. Technological superiority is not their focus at all, they just want something that has these other values and is "good enough" technically. If Sony can create unique experiences that appeal to them and aren't possible with Wii, or find a large portion of the Wii user base that are unsatisfied with Wii's technology, Move could be very successful in capturing that market. Otherwise, Sony's in for a big disappointment.

Yes, that's the "better mouse trap" problem, which is why it is in Sony's interest to re-frame the problem space so that motion sensing alone is inadequate. And the solution requires a holistic approach. Or a different approach.

[patsu]

Joker is far from the first to criticise Sony's lack of strategy or focus:
http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2010/03/how-sony-lost-its-way/#more-386052

http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/4/2009/03/IMG_2291.jpg
http://gizmodo.com/5163304/the-problem-with-sony-in-a-picture (http://gizmodo.com/5163304/the-problem-with-sony-in-a-
picture)

Actually that article shows Gizmodo don't know what they are talking about. It depends on what audience/market Sony is trying to sell to. Their problem is at the strategic and deeper level, not something as shallow as color choices for commodity CE devices. They may need fashion elements like color and style to sell a commodity. Sony should be rather good at forecasting the batch size of the SKUs to sell into multiple segments at the same time.

[patsu]

if sony is using the move to target ps3 audience then it's sony is really really and i mean really stupid. the ps3 audience are satisfied with their DS3.

Exactly. But they can frame the problem bigger. A lot of us want to play with our family members but they couldn't get in. In this case, DS3 and the whole school of design behind it is clearly insufficient. Then again painting Move as being more precise does nothing here.

Except the real lost opportunity joker seems to be referring to happened when those guys were around.

I agree, but I highlighted Phil and Kutaragi because the visions are missing in their PS Move communication. Kutaragi is not a great communicator but at least we could understand what Sony is trying to shoot for.

Phil is a natural but I heard he's wasteful. At the concept and communication front, I think he did a great job. He also understood what LBP represented way at the beginning. All the $$$ he threw at the first parties allowed them to build a solid/advanced technical expectation and foundation that we benefit today. And he was the one who championed for casual gaming (a la Wii) before Wii was launched, but apparently, the rest of Sony didn't listen.

PS3 wouldn't be cool to me today if it's just a $299 box.

They may have over-compensated these days. Or... since we only have limited access, we have not seen what they are up to yet. Afterall, we have not seen a meaty firmware update for months now.

EDIT: Note that I'm not saying there is no visionaries in SCEA. Dr. Marks is clearly one. It's just that the vision doesn't come through strongly in their communication, product design and concept. It could be they have restricted budget, or they are trying to avoid hyperbole, or whatever. The thing is the more I understand what PS Move is, the more I think they undersell the damn thing.

[tha_con]

if sony is using the move to target ps3 audience then it's sony is really really and i mean really stupid. the ps3 audience are satisfied with their DS3.

Explain it to me then. If you really know so much about the user base, give me some stats, some focus tests you've done, or some survey's you can cite.

Better yet, tell me how on earth you know anything other than what you think. What makes your position so much better than Sony's again? Nothing. You're just a joe nobody rummaging around forums trumpeting your knowledge of NPD sales data feeling self important and entitled because you're a "hardcore gamer".

Honestly, THIS is the problem with gaming, not "casual" gamers.

Either way, you misunderstood my post as you so quickly jumped to conclusions to prove your point. They aren't targeting ONE user, they are targeting the HOUSEHOLD. They don't want to simply push more hardware with move, that is stupid. It's clear they want to sell it to people who already own PS3's and expand the usability throughout the house hold. Bring those moms, dads, and sisters into the picture, sell them the software.

There IS a market out there for that. There ARE households that have PS3's and not Wii's. Even more so, there may be a household where someone is interested enough in Wii to want to play it, but not to buy all the hardware, games, and accessories for it. If they already have a PS3, they can do it at a lower price point.

The problem with YOU (and what seems to be a lot of people that are just random nobody speculators on the internet) is that you think Sony is just going after this Wii audience trying to get them to upgrade to PS3, and you think that is ALL Sony is doing.

They are, again, trying to build a device (and a platform overall) that can appeal to the entire household.

[joker454]

Why? What's so infuriating about it? Why should it have been out earlier? Are you saying because of EyeToy or for some other reason?

Because Move has been around for a really long time. Believe it or not, it originally started out as a PS2 project. They had a massive head start and tossed it away.


How do you know what Sony's internal process has been on this? I realize that people talk, but I also realize that in big companies the operational levels rarely know what's really going on at an executive level -- it's usually more like a 'chinese telephone' than any real information.

At the dev level sure, we only know so much. But when you know people at the corporate level then that changes the level of information significantly. They have played their hand, and there is still nothing yet that screams "yes we will grab new audiences with this".


What is the price-point of both solutions, then?

There's two options, compete on price or compete on content. Sony can't compete on price so they can only compete on content. But because they are now launching along side Natal they can't compete on content since you are talking about 1st rev games vs 1st rev games. The situation is made worse because Sony is treating their item as an accesory whereas MS is treating it as a platform. Now if Sony brought out Move years back then they would have had a much better chance because even though they will still be losing on price, at least their 3rd rev games would be competing with the other guys 1st rev games.


Okay, so what's the direction to follow with Natal?

Easy, make applications that the existing hardcore will have no interest in. The more I hear the hardcore grumble about how they are not interested in Natal, the more I feel it has a chance to succeed. It's all about pulling in a new audience, not catering to the existing one. For sure some will try to adapt existing hardcore games to the new controllers and that's fine, so long as it's not the primary focus. The problem with Move is that it has taken the direction of being an alternative accesory for the hardcore, with some casual audience games thrown in. The good thing with Natal is that it has taken the direction of being an alternative platform for casuals, with some hardcore games thrown in.


Well, certainly the drone coders and Joe Game Players who are excited about this must have some idea about what they're getting excited about? Or are they getting excited because they're being told to?

Truth be told I don't really care if the hardcore get excited about it. What would excite me far more is seeing Natal ads in places no one would have ever considered before but are now made possible by new content. Like seeing a Natal ad in Cosmo magazine, on the We channel, etc. Now that would be awesome. Seeing Kevin Butler ads? Sure they are cute, but largely useless because the people with whom those ads resonate the most with likely have a PS3 already anyways and/or aren't the type that would really care about buying Move games anyways.


Except here I'm skeptical that third parties will be overly enthusiastic about supporting any of the motion controllers with research. Particularly if it doesn't come with a killer app.

Your last sentence there is key, because in both cases the killer app is expected to come from MS/Sony. If they don't provide it then the consequences will reverberate throughout the 3rd party support network.


This brings back something we heard a month or two ago, with the dev-only conference/meetup that MS held, and the allegedly terrible demo of Milo. What sort of leadership by example are we talking about?

Milo gets ragged on by the hardcore, but that's because they just don't get it. The Milo demo had many purposes. Whether or not it actually worked turns out was completely irrelevant. The point was to demonstrate out of the box thinking to show alternate uses for Natal, to show that the host (MS in this case) has plans for Natal aside from just Wii clone games, to show that the host is putting research dollars behind the product and not just tossing out another accessory, and to get lots of free press with non hardcore audiences with which Natal is designed for to begin with. The hardcore forum folk will skewer it but they don't matter, they aren't the intended audience. It was different enough of a demo that magazines/website beyond the normal "just games" category were going to talk about it.


I'm not sure what you're talking about. Sony's message has been pretty on point in making light of Natal's limitations. They never miss a chance to brag about the low latency and superb accuracy of their solution or to highlight how important buttons are to interacting with a simulation. All three of these areas I think are perceived weaknesses in Natal.

Perceived by who though? The hardcore? Sure, they can skewer it all day if they want, doesn't really matter though. Will young kids care about latency when they see a demo kiosk with some funky Natal app at a store? Will soccer mom be thinking about the accuracy limitations of Natal when she reads a Natal add in some magazine catered to her? Will rocker girl be crushed at Natal's limitations when she reads about some cool new Natal ad in Teen Whatever magazine? The audience that it's catered to could care less about the tech, so long as there is some compelling content for them. By "compelling content" I mean content that would likely make a hardcore gamer vomit, and that's just fine. The Wii got crucified by just about everyone over it's tech limitations and turns out none of it mattered to anyone other than the hardcore, who I think still continue to harp on it today yet at the same time remain puzzled how it has wildly outsold everyone else.

[Danalys]

Well we've seen things like the virtual makeup mirror using PSEye. So we know Sony have looked into applications that can work for a different audience than they are catering to right now. There was no point in pushing those experiences on an expensive machine, which the PS3 has been for most it's life. I'm surprised the PS3 has titles like Buzz and Singstar out for it already, titles like Buzz Singstar EyePet show Sony's proven ability to tap into different demographics. They're not doing all the media stuff MS have done, going on talkshows etc, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. It might not be the time to really push for mindshare of expanded audiences yet. Nintendo seems to have success with announcing things fairly close to their launch. Sony could just be totally dropping the ball on this but we can't know yet and we'll perhaps get a better idea at E3.

[patsu]

Because Move has been around for a really long time. Believe it or not, it originally started out as a PS2 project. They had a massive head start and tossed it away.


Yes, too complacent perhaps.
But they wouldn't be able to do it on PS3 because of the high price point.
I expected them to do something @ $299 though.


Milo gets ragged on by the hardcore, but that's because they just don't get it. The Milo demo had many purposes. Whether or not it actually worked turns out was completely irrelevant. The point was to demonstrate out of the box thinking to show alternate uses for Natal, to show that the host (MS in this case) has plans for Natal aside from just Wii clone games, to show that the host is putting research dollars behind the product and not just tossing out another accessory, and to get lots of free press with non hardcore audiences with which Natal is designed for to begin with. The hardcore forum folk will skewer it but they don't matter, they aren't the intended audience. It was different enough of a demo that magazines/website beyond the normal "just games" category were going to talk about it.


Sony did show high concept videos. Besides the Magic Mirror, there was also the "Eyedentity" announcement. On top of that they have the Tank demo, which eventually ended up in EyePet (and "gimped" !). In addition, speech recognition was already "shipped" on SingStar before Milo was shown.

The first problem really is with how they present all these innovations. They were treated as piecemeal, uncoordinated standalone efforts on a low key accessory called PS Eye. Sony treated them like individual titles instead of a consolidated platform. If "PS Move" is a new platform, how so ? And how can Sony grow it *fast* ?

Playstation Home is another example. The management committed resources, but I don't think they have the right people and team size to push it further. Right now, it's limping along with barely (just barely) sufficient improvements to scrape by. The platform will likely sink into anonymity over the next few years. I love the World Map update, it's a belated step in the right direction.

And then, they went on to start more one-off efforts or point solutions. The eBook Reader comes to mind. I think it will be beaten to death or a very small niche by iPad. Sony is competing with the bests in the world, they need to pool all their best efforts together instead of spreading them all over the place.

When Peter Dille talks about convergence recently, he should have a clear idea of *how* exactly it would benefit the users instead of congragulating himself that PS3 is a convergent product. It's not. Not until my wife and my mother can use it effortlessly. There are still a few gaps in the current solution. They are very close, but yet rather far, from the convergent goal -- if Peter Dille and other execs still have the wrong mindset and perception.

I disagree with the notion that Sony needs to fire everyone. I think they should review and revamp the product development approaches and corporate policies for a start.

[obonicus]

Because Move has been around for a really long time. Believe it or not, it originally started out as a PS2 project. They had a massive head start and tossed it away.


So essentially EyeToy. Alright.


At the dev level sure, we only know so much. But when you know people at the corporate level then that changes the level of information significantly. They have played their hand, and there is still nothing yet that screams "yes we will grab new audiences with this".


Okay, what is the information?


There's two options, compete on price or compete on content. Sony can't compete on price so they can only compete on content. But because they are now launching along side Natal they can't compete on content since you are talking about 1st rev games vs 1st rev games. The situation is made worse because Sony is treating their item as an accesory whereas MS is treating it as a platform. Now if Sony brought out Move years back then they would have had a much better chance because even though they will still be losing on price, at least their 3rd rev games would be competing with the other guys 1st rev games.


You really need to start giving examples, here. How is MS treating it 'as a platform'? What sort of money is being bandied about? Are we going to be flabbergasted at E3? Because we've seen nothing so far. And again, what's the price point?


Easy, make applications that the existing hardcore will have no interest in. The more I hear the hardcore grumble about how they are not interested in Natal, the more I feel it has a chance to succeed.

That's stupid. That's sort of looking at the situation of the Wii and going 'gee, if we can just alienate the hardcore the way Nintendo did, we'd reach success'.

It's just backwards thinking; the only thing Sony did right about the Move is that it has some appeal to the hardcore. Nintendo appeals to their hardcore just by being Nintendo.

It's all about pulling in a new audience, not catering to the existing one. For sure some will try to adapt existing hardcore games to the new controllers and that's fine, so long as it's not the primary focus. The problem with Move is that it has taken the direction of being an alternative accesory for the hardcore, with some casual audience games thrown in. The good thing with Natal is that it has taken the direction of being an alternative platform for casuals, with some hardcore games thrown in.


Again, we need you to elaborate. You're saying these things, we're not seeing these things.


Truth be told I don't really care if the hardcore get excited about it. What would excite me far more is seeing Natal ads in places no one would have ever considered before but are now made possible by new content. Like seeing a Natal ad in Cosmo magazine, on the We channel, etc. Now that would be awesome. Seeing Kevin Butler ads? Sure they are cute, but largely useless because the people with whom those ads resonate the most with likely have a PS3 already anyways and/or aren't the type that would really care about buying Move games anyways.


Fair enough.


Your last sentence there is key, because in both cases the killer app is expected to come from MS/Sony. If they don't provide it then the consequences will reverberate throughout the 3rd party support network.


Okay, but what will the killer app be? Controller-less Wii Sports? Sony has shown nothing that Nintendo can't do already, but again, that's not a surprise. That's what the Move was all along. Why are you so positive that Microsoft will be able to deliver a killer app?


Milo gets ragged on by the hardcore, but that's because they just don't get it.

Explain it, then. What's there to get?


The Milo demo had many purposes. Whether or not it actually worked turns out was completely irrelevant.

Different demos. I'm not talking about the E3 demo. Check GDC talk; Milo was shown behind closed doors to a bunch of devs and it didn't perform admirably.


The point was to demonstrate out of the box thinking to show alternate uses for Natal,

How was it out of the box? It's Eyepet meets Seaman. We've seen nothing to suppose that MS will manage to do more than follow Nintendo into the casual space (which is where Sony firmly planted their wagon when they announced Move). I believe much more that it was about demonstrating Molyneux's pet project.


Perceived by who though? The hardcore? Sure, they can skewer it all day if they want, doesn't really matter though. Will young kids care about latency when they see a demo kiosk with some funky Natal app at a store?
Will soccer mom be thinking about the accuracy limitations of Natal when she reads a Natal add in some magazine catered to her? Will rocker girl be crushed at Natal's limitations when she reads about some cool new Natal ad in Teen Whatever magazine? The audience that it's catered to could care less about the tech, so long as there is some compelling content for them. By "compelling content" I mean content that would likely make a hardcore gamer vomit, and that's just fine. The Wii got crucified by just about everyone over it's tech limitations and turns out none of it mattered to anyone other than the hardcore, who I think still continue to harp on it today yet at the same time remain puzzled how it has wildly outsold everyone else.

This is still incredibly vague. Do you have apps in mind? What great breakthrough in motion controls have we seen in 3 years of the Wii beyond Wii Sports (Wii Fit is even more of a genius move, but a whole different peripheral). What sort of game will the little kid see in the Natal kiosk? What sort of software will the soccer mom read about in Soccer Mom monthly? Or do you think Natal's gimmick will be enough to carry it past the Wii?

[Arwin]

Because Move has been around for a really long time. Believe it or not, it originally started out as a PS2 project. They had a massive head start and tossed it away.

Tossed it away is maybe a big word? Would the technology have been feasible and affordable back in the PS2 days? I don't think so. At best, they could have worked very hard to have it ready in the early PS3 years. But adding everything up, from the gyroscope and accellerometers to the LED lights, I'm not so sure. I think they could have had this ready a year or two earlier though, which I have to admit may still be considered a big head start, at least versus Natal.

They have played their hand, and there is still nothing yet that screams "yes we will grab new audiences with this".

That's for E3, surely? Response from people who have done actual hands on has been decent enough though. If the Wii is still considered a Wii-Sports box today, then surely it will be an advantage to be able to say, the PS3 does all this and all that, and will even do Wii-Sports too, better than the original. Obviously, they're going for much more than that though, and I think they'll have more work cut out for them to explain that in the US and Japan than in Europe, where Sony has a good reputation in the casual market still.

If Sony were to compete with the Wii with this technology though, they may be better off focussing on getting the message out that the PS3 is also suitable for the kids, as currently Nintendo=kids over here and people will buy Wiis for their kids just because it's a Nintendo and their kids typically have a DS already also. Mind you, I think that a lot of families are discovering that the DS is all their kids need, and the Wii is superfluous, so that may not even be a great market to go for at this point. In which case we're back to the PS3 as a box that can cater to all audiences, young and old, casual and hardcore. Which I think is the idea of their 'it only does everything' campaign, so in itself, that doesn't seem to be a bad approach.

they can't compete on content since you are talking about 1st rev games vs 1st rev games.

Maybe, maybe not. There's an advantage here for Sony in that versus Microsoft, they should be able to benefit more strongly from the links between their product and the WiiMotion+ add-on. The two are practically identical for supporting 3D motion by itself, and the bigger third party developers (like EA, 2k, Sega) have been experimenting and/or releasing games for this technology already. For Natal, it's a much bigger step.

The situation is made worse because Sony is treating their item as an accesory whereas MS is treating it as a platform.

I can't judge at this point if this is true. What are you basing the difference between accessory and platform on?

The problem with Move is that it has taken the direction of being an alternative accesory for the hardcore, with some casual audience games thrown in. The good thing with Natal is that it has taken the direction of being an alternative platform for casuals, with some hardcore games thrown in.

I'm not sure if this is true or if this is a skewed perspective just from Move differentiating itself from the others by being considered the most likely of the three to also being able to bring something to the 'hardcore' (which, imho, is a category that is becoming increasingly outdated - are Madden/FIFA and Modern Warfare players really still considered 'hardcore'?).

It's a big quesiton whether Natal can actually become something in the public eye that stands apart from being tied up to the 360 at the core. Right now, I have a feeling that the PS3 has a lot more momentum going for it.

Seeing Kevin Butler ads? Sure they are cute, but largely useless because the people with whom those ads resonate the most with likely have a PS3 already anyways and/or aren't the type that would really care about buying Move games anyways.

Maybe. But then again they are very clearly not targeted at that audience necessarily. They are very clear about showing that they know what part of the PS3 is likely to appeal to what audience.

Your last sentence there is key, because in both cases the killer app is expected to come from MS/Sony. If they don't provide it then the consequences will reverberate throughout the 3rd party support network.

Even this is not set in stone, though. There's a big risk in having a Nintendo like killer app that stifles the desire for other games.

Milo gets ragged on by the hardcore, but that's because they just don't get it. The Milo demo had many purposes. Whether or not it actually worked turns out was completely irrelevant. The point was to demonstrate out of the box thinking to show alternate uses for Natal, to show that the host (MS in this case) has plans for Natal aside from just Wii clone games, to show that the host is putting research dollars behind the product and not just tossing out another accessory, and to get lots of free press with non hardcore audiences with which Natal is designed for to begin with. The hardcore forum folk will skewer it but they don't matter, they aren't the intended audience. It was different enough of a demo that magazines/website beyond the normal "just games" category were going to talk about it.

Definitely. I think it was a good proof-of-concept demo in that regard. But what will they end up having at launch is the big question - will they actually have that kind of experience, or will it be limited to the ball type demo? Also, I can see that Natal is going to work best when it can detect your full body, no matter the actual space requirements - the system is better going to have a special lense modification to deal with that, because over here in Europe a lot of people won't have that type of space readily available. I know I certainly don't.

Natal has a lot to prove. Sure they can get a lot of attention because of their tech. But that's not going to win the battle, because as you say below:

The Wii got crucified by just about everyone over it's tech limitations and turns out none of it mattered to anyone other than the hardcore, who I think still continue to harp on it today yet at the same time remain puzzled how it has wildly outsold everyone else.

This is mostly because in the end, Nintendo makes good software and puts software first, technology second. For Natal however, I still get a very strong impression that it has been very technology driven. I think there's some great potential for it to be sure, but I actually quite strongly agree with Sony when they say that even with the 3D tracking, there's only so much you can do without an actual controller and while Sony's tech has proven to me very clearly that the response from it is fast enough to overcome the basic lag-requirements. Natal hasn't yet. And the precision from the pressure buttons on the Move may turn out to be essential too.

Finally, there's the 3D factor. It may not become huge this year, but Sony is really up to speed in supporting it. The combination between 3D visuals and 3D control could really work out in the end, and while the 360 can sure support 3D, Sony seems to be way ahead here. At the same time, Natal technology could really come into its own in the next generation, and the lessons (and patent position!) Microsoft is learning in this first phase could give it an incredibly strong position in the next console generation (with a faster and more hi-def camera tech driving it) even if Natal fails in this one.

Regardless of how things end up turning out, it's going to be very interesting to see what all three companies are going to do this year and the next. I'm very excited to find out. If I sound pro-Sony here it's partly because I'm responding to your skepticism towards Sony.

That said, right now I'm personally more optimistic about the Move controller, at least when it comes to what I personally expect to like. The biggest weakness of Natal that I worry about right now is that with the Wii, you could make big, realistic movements to control the games, but crucially in most cases, you didn't have to.

I'm worried that Natal won't have a flick your wrist rather than swing your arm option, and that could hold it back even if the lag would end up being good enough (which is theoretically possible, but I have a hard time seeing how a sampling rate of 30fps combined with a fully camera dependent input method is going to get anywhere near regular controller like response times).

And they have a lot to prove in the software development department too. The 360 has thus far strongly benefitted from being a great platform for multi-platform games. With all three systems offering motion controls from this fall onwards, there's no doubt at all that we're going to see multi-platform games using them. Right now, the situation is:

- Wii has its basic motion controller (includes a microphone, speaker and vibration) and the low priced Motion+ add-on, no camera input (yet at least)
- PS3 has its basic controller (sixaxis motion controls included), the Move controller, and PS Eye input (which has a microphone array)
- 360 has its basic controller (no motion controls) and the Natal camera (which has a microphone array)

If you were to make a graph for this in terms of how multi-platform can take advantage of its features, you'll see that there's a big overlap between the Wii and the PS3, and between the 360 and the PS3, but there's a big gap between the 360 and the Wii. It's going to be very interesting to see how this is going to affect development. I have to go to bed, but it could be a fun exercise to actually take a few of the gaming concepts that have been popular over the last 10 years and see how they would fit into a feature table above.

Of course it could still all end up being irrelevant, if one of the three ends up creating a killer app that eclipses anything else. I'm increasingly skeptical of that happening now - the platforms are way too big for that already, and I think it's no longer up to a single game at this stage - but calling it impossible would be foolish.

Anyway, it's going to be very, very interesting. I'm happy that we're going this direction - I liked the Wii concept, I strongly believe in it and have since day one. Even on the PS3, the ease with which non-gaming friends could pick up a game like Motorstorm thanks to the motion controls was eye-opening (similar to the even more impressive way my 1yo son picks up on the iPhone/iPod Touch controls - I bought a Mac just so that I can get into developing for touch interfaces and write stuff my kid can use to learn and play).

I really want to see the technology become common across all platforms and see this evolve, and in that sense I'm strongly rooting for all three to become a big success.

[(((interference)))]

Actually that article shows Gizmodo don't know what they are talking about. It depends on what audience/market Sony is trying to sell to. Their problem is at the strategic and deeper level, not something as shallow as color choices for commodity CE devices. They may need fashion elements like color and style to sell a commodity. Sony should be rather good at forecasting the batch size of the SKUs to sell into multiple segments at the same time.

I'll admit, I just saw that picture and decided to included it - it probably wasn't the best choice, but the other article I linked to has some great examples of their strategic incompetence http://gizmodo.com/5477633/how-sony-lost-its-way

Sony released the first e-ink reader years before the Kindle—in Japan only. And it was nearly impossible to load your own content onto it. And it took years to get a solid online library and store together. According to estimates from Forrester Research, Sony had only sold about 50,000 of its Readers before Amazon entered the game with the Kindle. It took a competitor with a superior product to convince customers it was time to look at e-ink readers at all

They really need focus, rather than their current 'lets put everything we can think of out to market and see what sticks' modus operandi, just look at their product lineup:
http://gizmodo.com/5481454/infographic-sonys-overwhelming-gadget-line+up

[patsu]

Ah... much better. But there are valid marketing and economics reasons why there are so many models. The trick is to balance the needs.

I do agree with the "not committed enough" and "let's try" syndrome, which result in very fragmented services. They usually cause the "usability gaps" in an end-to-end system.

I don't think PS Move is a Wiimote clone though. It's mainly because Peter Dille's organization failed (and continues to fail) to frame and articulate the ... thing.

[Jerome]

And what makes you think they're selling Move to the Wii Market, as opposed to opening up their existing PS3 households to bring more people around the console?

I don't deny they're trying to open up existing PS3-owning households, but what makes me think they're selling Move the Wii market is that they've said so themselves.

For instance, these quotes from Peter Dille, Senior Vice President of Marketing at Sony Computer Entertainment America:

"We’re paving a path from the Wii household to the PS3 household; we’re planning to design games that target all genres and audiences, including core gamers, and we’re treating this like a virtual platform launch. This will be our biggest effort of the year."

"We like to think that the migration path between Wii households and PlayStation households is a natural path,"

“Nintendo has done a great job introducing motion gaming to the masses, but (the PS3 equipped with PlayStation Move) is where the Wii household is likely to gravitate, in our opinion.”

(Speaking of how motion sensing is now accepted, thanks to the Wii) "However, these people will soon be upgrading to HDTVs, so we see these Wii households gravitating to the PS3."


And this quote from an Industry Gamers interview with Sony Worldwide Studios VP Scott Rohde:

IG: Do you literally anticipate that people who are Wii owners right now will say, 'Hey, here's another motion control system similar to Wii. I want to upgrade.' Do you believe you'll see a lot of that?

SR: I think so, sure. That's definitely an audience that we're targeting. One of the beauties of the PS3 with the whole ad campaign, “It Only Does Everything,” there's a lot to that. It could mean that a lot of families bring it into the house because it's a Blu-ray player, and [Move] is just another reason for them to bring it into the house. Maybe someone is sitting on the fence about whether or not to upgrade [to PS3] and this could lead them to do it."

[patsu]

Yap, one of the execs explained that based on past statistics, they have always seen a certain percentage of Nintendo console owners migrate to Playstation. Move is supposed to smoothen the transition for this group of people (e.g., children grow up).

That doesn't mean they have to shoehorn/limit the overall PS Move experience into a Wiimote+ though [Rage !]. e.g., These people may decide to try a totally different experiences altogether (e.g., Natal, PS Eye).


For instance, they could do some kind of presentation summarizing EyeToy/PSEye game releases and showing more stuff, beyond technology demonstrations, things that would make people think "wow, I remember/see that with the PSEye I can also use my body without a controller". It may sound "cheesy" and it lacks precision, but I'm sure you all understood. :-P

PS Eye can already do unique and mind boggling stuff, in addition to accurate motion sensing. The sketch recognition, speech recognition, natural interface interaction are all shipping today. But few people outside the gaming community saw them. They can add other stuff like head tracking, puppetry, hand writing recognition, and more if they want.

[_phil_]

Milo gets ragged on by the hardcore, but that's because they just don't get it.And it's praised by the casusal for the exact same reason.

BTW ,Milo demo really doesn't need the camera depth much if at all .Most of the demo is unrelated to that.

And the rest of the tech is still far away ,and much more if you want to make it look and feel as fluent and nice as the fake demo would want us to believe it is.

As for the thinking , just review classic anticipation sci-fi movie stuff.
We've had a lot of these kind of thing in movies for some time now.

I don't think it's a big deal, only, once you're ready to put aside the reality of most of the tech involed ,and present it in a very controled way so you can just avoid most constraints, you can bring it into the real world !

For some you then look like a magician , for the others a heavy cheater.

[(((interference)))]

Well, Fable 3 already looks better than Fable 2, even if its not by much, though i don't know if they already have natal support in...

I wonder if Ms can reengineer their OS so they can have all the usual features + Natal support lying inside those 32Mb that already are reserved?

Does it? Maybe they're only have Natal features at certain times like the storeroom/wardrobe environments which are less resource intensive - can they load the Natal libraries in and out of RAM as required? Or will Natal support always use resources - even if its not being used?

With Forza 4, if they're using it for head tracking which is always on in gameplay, then it should definitely impact on the graphics if it uses 10% or more of system resources.
How will they compete with GT5's visuals with that kind of overhead?

And will this possible reduction in visual quality affect players who will never use Natal? Or will enabling Natal see a drop in graphics/performance

[Rolf N]

They really need focus, rather than their current 'lets put everything we can think of out to market and see what sticks' modus operandi, just look at their product lineup:
http://gizmodo.com/5481454/infographic-sonys-overwhelming-gadget-line+upThat's just taking the piss. Whoever made this tried very hard to prove something. When you include different color versions of the same design, why would you shuffle them around like that? Why not put them next to each other? Oh I get it, they'd line up visually and wouldn't look as messy. If you want this overview to look messy, that just won't do.

[Graham]

...

I'll repeat myself again: We don't know how much memory Natal requires. We only know a rumor about the total software package size.

Speculation about company strategy is fine, because realistically no one knows anything solid. If they did, they wouldn't be saying anything. However please stop talking about rumored performance and requirements as if they are established facts. And especially don't make it a Vs debate.

[LightHeaven]

Does it? Maybe they're only have Natal features at certain times like the storeroom/wardrobe environments which are less resource intensive - can they load the Natal libraries in and out of RAM as required? Or will Natal support always use resources - even if its not being used?

With Forza 4, if they're using it for head tracking which is always on in gameplay, then it should definitely impact on the graphics if it uses 10% or more of system resources.
How will they compete with GT5's visuals with that kind of overhead?

And will this possible reduction in visual quality affect players who will never use Natal? Or will enabling Natal see a drop in graphics/performance

The videos so far look a bit better, specially the lighting, and seems to stutter less than fable 2 did.

For the other questions, i guess we'll just have to wait and see XD

[patsu]

BTW, Milo demo really doesn't need the camera depth much if at all. Most of the demo is unrelated to that.


That's correct, but it doesn't matter. Natal is not about depth sensing only. It's about the benefits natural interfaces will bring.

In similar vein, PS Move (+ PS Eye) is not solely about 1-1 true mapping and absolute positioning.

EDIT: On top of this platform, it depends on how the vendors package the technology into the core/basic experience. If Sony limits/isolates the experience into selected titles, then it'd feel like a timid me-too, or a one-off science experiment, like how they restricted the AI photographer feature into just 2 camera models. If they can integrate the experience throughout PS3's daily experiences, then it would be seen as a "level up".

[joker454]

So essentially EyeToy. Alright.

No not eyetoy...Move, the wand. It's been around a while.


You really need to start giving examples, here.

You're asking for details on stuff that I can't openly talk about. I'm not under nda for most of it, but I am under professional courtesy to keep quiet on details. So take what I say as "my opinion", or just ignore it all if you prefer.


Why are you so positive that Microsoft will be able to deliver a killer app?

I'm not, they can bollux it all up just like the other guy. The key difference to me is that they are taking a far smarter approach to the whole thing. Sony to me is going about it wrong on all fronts, from the 3rd party approach, to marketing, to pricing (not much choice there though), to target audience, to content, etc. Add in that Move has been around for ages and hence the "wtf" frustration at the whole thing. I've already written Move off as being a game changer, it's just another accessory to me now and hence not all that interesting. Now I'm watching Natal waiting to see what will happen. So far I like their approach to 3rd parties, content (so far) and target audience. Marketing and pricing remain to be seen, as does whether or not new audiences will go for the content.

[tha_con]

I'm not, they can bollux it all up just like the other guy. The key difference to me is that they are taking a far smarter approach to the whole thing. Sony to me is going about it wrong on all fronts, from the 3rd party approach, to marketing, to pricing (not much choice there though), to target audience, to content, etc. Add in that Move has been around for ages and hence the "wtf" frustration at the whole thing. I've already written Move off as being a game changer, it's just another accessory to me now and hence not all that interesting. Now I'm watching Natal waiting to see what will happen. So far I like their approach to 3rd parties, content (so far) and target audience. Marketing and pricing remain to be seen, as does whether or not new audiences will go for the content.

:lol:

Please then, be so kind to show us the strategy Microsoft is using to get 3rd parties involved. I'd love to see all of this content I've been missing.

I mean, they showed Natal on the Today Show, obviously they're not going after that Wii Crowd either, their approach is wonderful. Big Red Ball and Paint-A-Thon are going to be huge hits.

[obonicus]

For what it's worth, I'm not saying that the E3 software is what MS will show. Rather, my remark is focused more on how we seem unable to come up with compelling new experiences for these devices even as thought exercises.

[Crossbar]

Right now, the situation is:

- Wii has its basic motion controller (includes a microphone, speaker and vibration) and the low priced Motion+ add-on, no camera input (yet at least)
- PS3 has its basic controller (sixaxis motion controls included), the Move controller, and PS Eye input (which has a microphone array)
- 360 has its basic controller (no motion controls) and the Natal camera (which has a microphone array)

If you were to make a graph for this in terms of how multi-platform can take advantage of its features, you'll see that there's a big overlap between the Wii and the PS3, and between the 360 and the PS3, but there's a big gap between the 360 and the Wii. It's going to be very interesting to see how this is going to affect development.

Interesting compilation of the three contenders. Another way to view it is that Sony took the Wii-controler and added depth sense and Microsoft took the EyeToy and added depth sense. I found it quite interesting to listen to Dr Marks at the Engadget show how he reaoned why they didn´t continue on the path of controler free gaming and added depth sensing. Basically it had some limits in the user interaction they wanted to overcome and is an expensive technology.

I think controler free gaming has a niche among casual gamers just like the Playstation Eye and EyeToy games and can be very successful. My kids enjoy the EyePet game and with depth sensing it can probably be improved and made even more enjoyable. It will be really interesting to see if it makes a lot of difference if you hold a controler in your hand or not when EyePet2 is released this fall.

[obonicus]

The Wiimote has a microphone? Or you mean Wii Speak?

[Arwin]

The Wiimote has a microphone? Or you mean Wii Speak?

It doesn't, does it? My mistake.

[eloyc]

It doesn't, does it? My mistake.
No, it doesn't. It has a speaker, not a microphone.

Any known uses of this speaker in games?

[Arwin]

No, it doesn't. It has a speaker, not a microphone.

Any known uses of this speaker in games?

Oh yes, certainly - even as a non-Wii owner, I know that its used for sounds like hitting a ball in Wii Tennis or shooting an arrow / clanging swords in Zelda, etc. There's also one where its used to simulate a phone call on the Wii, where the phone voice comes through the controller's speaker.

[eloyc]

Oh yes, certainly - even as a non-Wii owner, I know that its used for sounds like hitting a ball in Wii Tennis or shooting an arrow / clanging swords in Zelda, etc. There's also one where its used to simulate a phone call on the Wii, where the phone voice comes through the controller's speaker.
I don't know why but that sounds quite uncanny, to me... :???:
Does the PSMove Remote... erm, Move controller have a speaker? Or a microphone?

[Rolf N]

No, it doesn't. It has a speaker, not a microphone.

Any known uses of this speaker in games?Silent Hill: Shattered Memories uses it for phone calls. You hold the thing up to your ear.

It's a really cheap speaker though, terrible quality, so if the game doesn't make me use it, I have the grater turned off as a general rule. I don't know what they did. Maybe Nintendo could save half a penny by using a 6 bit PWM DAC or whatever they put in there, instead of something normal.

[AzBat]

I don't know why but that sounds quite uncanny, to me... :???:
Does the PSMove Remote... erm, Move controller have a speaker? Or a microphone?

Neither. Only microphone is in the PSEye.

BTW, in Star Wars Wii game the Wiimote speaker has lightsaber sounds. Kinda neat if you ask me.

Tommy McClain

[patsu]

There you go... the light ball can show you the color of your light saber. They should be able to show 3D sound effects from your 5.1 speaker setup at the same time.

[Jerome]

[QUOTE=patsu;1418357]There you go... the light ball can show you the color of your light saber.QUOTE]

That's possibly the first really interesting use of the BGB (Big Glowing Ball) on the Move controller (aside from, you know, making it work) that I've heard of. That could actually be kinda cool.

[tha_con]

I think it'd be sweet to use the controller for an action RPG, and have it change color according to your spell.

Though, it only does two colors right?

[Alucardx23]

I think it'd be sweet to use the controller for an action RPG, and have it change color according to your spell.

Though, it only does two colors right?

The move controller has a red, green and blue led, so basically it can do any color. But the way it works is that Move will choose the color with the highest contrast to the background.

[patsu]

It's under the developer's control. e.g., They have a painting demo where the ball will show the color of the paint.


That's possibly the first really interesting use of the BGB (Big Glowing Ball) on the Move controller (aside from, you know, making it work) that I've heard of. That could actually be kinda cool.

Ha ha, me think there should be more interesting and immersive use cases.

[eloyc]

Does somebody remember EyeToy: AntiGrav?

Sony should release more games like this. I'm not satisfied with the PSEye being only useful because of the Move... I would like to see more games and applications similar to the EyeToy series, without a controller.

[corduroygt]

I somewhat agree with joker here that for mtion controls to be succesful, they should be as far away from the current hardcore console gaming experience as possible. It should be SIMPLE, like the wii.
I think the move controller has way too many buttons, all it needs is the trigger, the move button and PS button. no need for select, start, and the square triangle circle x buttons. If you want to cater to the hardcore, just have more buttons on the subcontroller, not on the move controller that you must include with every ps3.

Sony makes great hardware, they just don't have the right focus, unfortunately. Casual people want SIMPLE and intuitive games. Natal is intuitive and so is moving a wand with a couple buttons at max. Having 8 buttons will still intimidate the consumer.

[Rolf N]

Sony makes great hardware, they just don't have the right focus, unfortunately. Casual people want SIMPLE and intuitive games. Natal is intuitive and so is moving a wand with a couple buttons at max. Having 8 buttons will still intimidate the consumer.Every last TV remote built in the past 20 years says you're off on that. Consumers are not intimidated by buttons. They will happily use the subset they understand, and postpone exploring the rest to "later" (or never).

[patsu]

May be it's time for TV remote to die. :)

I agree that having a controller-free or few buttons are appealing to casuals especially if the game appears challenging and deep. To be honest, I was intimitated by Wiimote button layout too.

However they are not afraid of buttons. If the buttons are easy to understand and used correctly, it should be second nature (e.g., We use two button mouse instead of one button mouse today).

[ShadowRunner]

I think there is a demand for motion controls among the core. Im glad sony are aiming for the core with move as well as casuals and i think the core gamers is where Move will see much of its success early on selling to their existing userbase. IMO they need to focus on thier current userbase first to establish Move as a viable device to develop for before trying to sell a ton of £300 systems to casuals.

Also i think this idea that people are afraid of buttons are totally unfounded. The wii didnt sell to people because the controller wasnt scary to them like all the other controllers they had seen, it sold because people liked the experience. Its the same argument i was having about natal, its not going to sell because its controllerless and people are scared of controllers, it will sell because the experience it offers is apealing.

[patsu]

If they can prove and communicate the benefits ! (e.g., would like to try RTS-like games, or let my son play R&C with me since DS3 is too difficult for him in that game).

I think web browsing with Move should be better too.

[corduroygt]

Every last TV remote built in the past 20 years says you're off on that. Consumers are not intimidated by buttons. They will happily use the subset they understand, and postpone exploring the rest to "later" (or never).
Guess which one is more popular:
http://edibleapple.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/bhktvcknapzpav96qbkwf7lao1_500.jpg

Besides, watching TV does not have any competition from simpler/easier forms of home entertainment, however for casuals, a game is just like watching a movie, or playing cards with your friends. That's what motion control gaming should be competing these kinds of activities to get the casuals on board.

[tha_con]

I somewhat agree with joker here that for mtion controls to be succesful, they should be as far away from the current hardcore console gaming experience as possible. It should be SIMPLE, like the wii.
I think the move controller has way too many buttons, all it needs is the trigger, the move button and PS button. no need for select, start, and the square triangle circle x buttons. If you want to cater to the hardcore, just have more buttons on the subcontroller, not on the move controller that you must include with every ps3.

Sony makes great hardware, they just don't have the right focus, unfortunately. Casual people want SIMPLE and intuitive games. Natal is intuitive and so is moving a wand with a couple buttons at max. Having 8 buttons will still intimidate the consumer.

...except most of the games they have shown thus far aside from Socom use none of the buttons at all except the trigger..DOH!

I fail to understand how you folks are so confident that Natal is intuitive and great, when pretty much none of us have seen anything more than vapor ware and a buggy implementation on Burnout Paradise. I'll be excited for Natal when I actually see software this E3 that doesn't involve flailing.

All of this talk about "focus" and "misdirection" blah blah. It's filled with almost nothing but preconceived notions of ill-will toward Sony products, and for what? Because they launched a $600 unit with some arrogance? Give me a break. Move is just as well planned, marketed, and directed as Natal, and they actually have software to show for it way earlier than Microsoft. I am just not getting the same vibe from Move as you are, but then again I've been actively following both of these products, not just one of them...

Edit: For instance, here is the Natal Site for Microsoft:

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/live/projectnatal/

Full of vaporware and concepts that look neat in a video, but their application in "real life" remains to be seen (i.e. dress up, saying goodnight to turn off the console, etc). The video goes from a kid playing a fighting game, to a racing game, to a flailing game, to a skateboard game, and finally a dress up teen simulator or something that we all know will never happen this generation.

Basically, it shows just as much "lack of direction" (which I don't think it true, but apparently you all should) as Sony's product.

Then we've got the PS Move site:

http://us.playstation.com/ps3/playstation-move/index.htm

Clearly it shows the same variety as natal, with almost none of the games using complex buttons or movements, etc. Very simple, and EVERYTHING is clear about the product and what it is. Not to mention Sony goes out of their way to include lots of videos about Move, behind the scenes, and other things to help the consumer (or people visiting the site) understand it.

So please, all of you, tell me HOW this lacks focus, just because you're "disappointed" (read: being jaded about games) that it's "Wii-too" and not "OMG MINORITY REPORT WITH MILO!!". Because as far as I can tell, Move is the product that has clearly shown us it works, that Sony knows what they want to do with the product, and they're doing their best to get 3rd parties involved as well as some good 1st party software. I think that's more comforting at this point than Natal with nothing but Vaporware.

Now, I have high hopes just as the rest of you do for Natal, but I'm not foolish enough to champion it when we've seen almost no software and have heard very little about it.

[Rolf N]

May be it's time for TV remote to die. :)Why, do you want speech recognition to be the only interface going forward? Those heaps of buttons give you quick access to a host of features. You don't have to use every last bit of it if you don't want to, but if you know what you want and how to do it, it lets you be more efficient. Why toss that away when it's optional anyway?

Every button does the same thing in flower. You don't have to be very familiar with the controller to play it. However it's still a good thing that all those options are available for other games. Just like I won't deny the benefit of a speech control option for certain types of experiences and circumstances. Throw it all in!

This is a cost argument at best.
I agree that having a controller-free or few buttons are appealing to casuals especially if the game appears challenging and deep. To be honest, I was intimitated by Wiimote button layout too.I take issue with the Wiimote ergonomics (thickness, weight, vertical arrangement, symmetry), but intimidation is not the term I'd use.

However they are not afraid of buttons. If the buttons are easy to understand and used correctly, it should be second nature (e.g., We use two button mouse instead of one button mouse today).If you look outside of computing, there's a whole lot of high-bandwidth interfaces that have evolved over very, very long timespans. Flutes, guitars, trumpets, pianos, saxophones etc. Or ATMs with touch screens. The thing they all have in common is that you operate [parts of] them with your fingertips and get immediate tactile feedback about what you're doing.

Pressing a thing with the tip of your finger is a very comfortable, familiar action, socially accepted, and makes you smell good.


edit: Guess which one is more popular:
http://edibleapple.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/bhktvcknapzpav96qbkwf7lao1_500.jpgMy guess is both are close in popularity, but watching TV regularly is probably more widespread on the whole, while music is a more occasional, bursty activity.

[ShadowRunner]

Guess which one is more popular:
http://edibleapple.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/bhktvcknapzpav96qbkwf7lao1_500.jpg

Besides, watching TV does not have any competition from simpler/easier forms of home entertainment, however for casuals, a game is just like watching a movie, or playing cards with your friends. That's what motion control gaming should be competing these kinds of activities to get the casuals on board.

And how would you change to channel #173 with the remote with no buttons. There is a difference between an interface being simplified and it being intuitive, there is a synergy there but being intuitive is the aim above all. For instance in a 3d platform game it is intuitive to us an analogue stick to move a character, many on here think people are scared of analogue sticks, this isnt the case, i guarantee you moving a character onscreen using an analogue stick is more intuitive to a casual gamer than any other way you can think of. Same goes for making a character jump by pressing a button in a mario game, its an intuitive way to interface with the game. People are not scared of buttons it just needs to be intuitive. Removing all other forms of interaction and only having motion will be extremely counter intuitive for anything that doesnt relate directly to what you are doing. Raise your arm to raise a characters arm in a game and it is intuitive, rasie your arm to make your character fire a gun and it is no longer any more intuitive than a button press, in fact it is counter intuitive and in some cases a totaly abstract method, like a button press, is preffered.

[Shifty Geezer]

Guess which one is more popular:I feel the correct response to this is a photo of a glass of water and a handbook on how to drive. That iPod interface is no use for controlling a TV. It's also no use for playing anything more complex than a random selection of musics. Why is the iPod Touch popular when it has such a complex interface? Because that complex interface allows so much. The advantage of the Touch or any screen-based interface is buttons can be context sensitive. However, the complexity of pre-iPhone phones with their multitudinous buttons shows buttons themselves aren't a limiting factor. You just need the right interface for the job. Clearly that media remote would be overkill for a game! Then again, plenty of PC games are much the easier for having 102 available buttons to play, and attempts to squeeze their interfaces onto a limited controller are ineffectual. The end result is console games are designed for a console interface.

Move strikes me as an appropriate balance between form and function, giving enough buttons to allow direct, immediate input, but not too many. Much like Wiimote. Indeed, reflecting back on your photo, why has Wiimote got as many buttons as it does if 4 should suffice, taking iPod as an example?

[Xalion]

Guess which one is more popular:



As others have pointed out, this is a fairly silly comparison to begin with.

However, just using raw numbers from the year 2000, 95% of the 100,800,000 houses with televisions had a remote control in the US alone. 76% had multiple telelvisions sets, and hence multiple remote controls.

Lifetime to date world wide, the iPod is only around the 150 million mark for total sales. In other words, television remotes in use in the US any given year right now probably equals the total number of ipods sold to date. It seems to me the television remote is far more popular than the iPod. Worldwide, I've heard estimates of around a billion television sets sold in the history of television. If you assume even only 50% of those had remote controls, your picture argument looks just silly.

I am not sure your picture helped your case at all. Rather, you just proved the other poster's point. TV remotes are far more common that ipods, and have a lot more buttons.

[tha_con]

What strikes me as funny is that people think "casuals" (how I hate this term) are intimidated by buttons, which couldn't be further from the truth. They aren't intimidated by the buttons as much as they are by the experience and learning it.

It's no different from an everyday person who's never played an instrument taking the leap and learning to play. I'd say that playing a Guitar or Saxophone is far more complex than learning to use 8 buttons on a contoller, given the range of control necessary to do either. Yet people learn, because they want to learn.

The reason people don't play videogames is because they don't want to learn. It has nothing to do with intimidation. Wii is not successful only because of it's easy to use motion controls, in fact, that's only half of the equation. The biggest response was the short and fun software available for it. It broke that illusion of a "videogame" replacing it with something that has no story, and is "pick up and play". People are already familiary with the motions necessary to play Wii Sports. You move your hands to swing a bat, throw your fist to punch, etc. That's the trick.

Buttons have nothing to do with it. If you had to hold a button on each controller to charge the power of your punch, people would learn it. If they WANT to learn. Desire has a lot to do with it, more so than "that's a lot of buttons".

Oh...word of mouth and popularity have a huge impact too, lol.

[Arwin]

The iPod Touch interface could be a really awesome TV remote. Take the exact layout that selecting an App has now for instance. What you would have is the bottom row could have the four colors that current remotes typically have, or they could simply default to Favorites / Settings / Guide / Mode.

The default 16 icons above would each correspond to a group of TV channels. The default layout offered could consist of Sports / News / Comedy / Local etc. each represented by a nice graphic that makes clear what it is immediately, with the name of the category below, again just like the basic iPod/iPhone interface is currently.

Once you've selected a category, you can select one of the channels in that category, again just by tapping a tile, probably looking like the logo that most channels currently have on their screen somewhere already anyway.

It's definitely going to go away at some point. ;)

I think each of the 3D motion controllers can probably come up with an interface that is at least close to that level of intuitiveness. I just hope that they do! If I were to work at one of these companies, I'd be having a field day redesigning the user interface for this purpose!

[Squilliam]

The remote vs Natal.

Well it does depend on what you're doing. So long as the voice commands and gesture commands work I would say the concept of Natal kicks the remote pretty hard where it wouldn't like to be kicked.

When remotes were the size of your palm and you had about 14 buttons they worked pretty well. They don't work nearly as well when you have about 40 buttons of which the average person understands a little less than half. They are simply not as practical anymore between getting bigger, becoming more obtrusive, and more complicated.

The very act of watching TV has also changed. People are no longer seated with a remote on the coffee table when they are watching TV. With an increase in the size of the television and their portability many people have them in their kitchen, bedroom and they don't always watch them whilst seated with a remote handy.

The nature of the market is more complex. 46 Million people in America suffer from arthritis. You can't say that because they don't populate message boards that they don't exist, or that the TV remote is the best choice for them. This is just one condition which makes using a remote control a difficulty. Try general old age and a general stiffening of the body. Age yourself 40 years then lean forward to grab the remote on the table and tell me that its easy.

TV watching itself is becoming more complex. Hundreds of channels, a handful of different inputs, relevant modes like gaming, 3D. Is it really easier to navigate a menu on a TV or to cut to the chase and just call out what you want? When people talk about the remote its always the ideal case of 'I have it in my hand' but what if your lady has it and she knows you're a remote hog so she doesn't want to give it to you?

[joker454]

What strikes me as funny is that people think "casuals" (how I hate this term) are intimidated by buttons, which couldn't be further from the truth.

You're getting bogged down with semantics. The word 'casual' gets batted around on forums because it tends to be synonymous with 'non gamer'. If you want a better and more concise description of who MS/Sony should be going after, it should be anyone that does not have a 360/PS3 and has no interest in procuring a 360/PS3 in their current forms and incarnations. That's who they should be going after. Nothing that I've seen so far on Move is doing anything to acquire that client. They seem content to go for the hardcore and Wii sloppy seconds which in my mind is a complete waste of time. Natal for all it's perceived vaporware and technical issues is at least giving it a try.


I fail to understand how you folks are so confident that Natal is intuitive and great, when pretty much none of us have seen anything more than vapor ware and a buggy implementation on Burnout Paradise. I'll be excited for Natal when I actually see software this E3 that doesn't involve flailing.

Except that neither manufacturer should care at all about your opinion, nor should any resources whatsoever be spent to acquire you as an audience. That's the hardest part to get across. You already have the console, you already spend dollars on it, and you already will be spending future dollars on it, so who cares about you anymore (from a business point of view). You're in the bag, you will support your console with your money one way or the other, on plenty of new content already in the pipeline. Natal/Move should have nothing to do with you. If they do, then it's time and resources totally wasted in my mind.


All of this talk about "focus" and "misdirection" blah blah. It's filled with almost nothing but preconceived notions of ill-will toward Sony products, and for what? Because they launched a $600 unit with some arrogance?

No clue what you're on about here.


Give me a break. Move is just as well planned, marketed, and directed as Natal, and they actually have software to show for it way earlier than Microsoft.

Natal marketing hasn't really started yet, so not sure what you are comparing it to.


Because as far as I can tell, Move is the product that has clearly shown us it works, that Sony knows what they want to do with the product, and they're doing their best to get 3rd parties involved as well as some good 1st party software.

This one is hilarious, especially if you knew what was really going on behind the scenes. But there is no way for me to publicly defend it, so I'll just leave it at that.

[Shifty Geezer]

It's no different from an everyday person who's never played an instrument taking the leap and learning to play. I'd say that playing a Guitar or Saxophone is far more complex than learning to use 8 buttons on a contoller, given the range of control necessary to do either. Yet people learn, because they want to learn. I dare say less people learn though because it's harder. ;) The thinking of simplifying things is good. Complexity makes it harder to have fun. However, one shouldn't simplify for the sake of it. Kinda like those designer watches with only one hand and no digits, where in theory you can tell the time from them, but adding the complexity of a second hand and some markings, it becomes a hell of a lot easier and more accurate. It's possible to type with only six buttons as long as you use combinations od them, but it's easier for a person to learn to type using the standard alpha-numeric keyboards we have. It present a lower barrier to entry. A controller with 100 buttons will be more intimidating than a controller of a dozen buttons and the arrangement of functions within the game to provide submenus or 'shift modifiers'.

Wii is an excellent simplification of the interface providing several degrees of freedom without having to learn anything. That's part of its appeal, and it'd be as wrong to say people only like Wii because its games are simple and fun as it is to say it's only due to a simple interface. There have been other simple, fun games out there, such as EyeToy. In contrast, Nintendo marketed themselves effectively and brought all the pieces together with a determined direction, coupled with a simple message to attract a target demographic unlike EyeToy which was a message lost among the existing noise of the PS brand.

In that respect Move is well muddled compared to Wii, but it has the advantage in being able to piggyback of Wii's success. Everyone knows what a waggle controller with arm-waving games is now, and Move is just PS3's take on it. It'll be down to the software and system in general to appeal. The controller won't be a limiting factor - it's neither too simple to be incapable nor too complex to scare people away.

[crabbz]

The iPod Touch interface could be a really awesome TV remote. Take the exact layout that selecting an App has now for instance. What you would have is the bottom row could have the four colors that current remotes typically have, or they could simply default to Favorites / Settings / Guide / Mode.

The default 16 icons above would each correspond to a group of TV channels. The default layout offered could consist of Sports / News / Comedy / Local etc. each represented by a nice graphic that makes clear what it is immediately, with the name of the category below, again just like the basic iPod/iPhone interface is currently.

Once you've selected a category, you can select one of the channels in that category, again just by tapping a tile, probably looking like the logo that most channels currently have on their screen somewhere already anyway.


Touch screen remotes have existed for a quite a while allowing you to do just this (eg. Philips Pronto). They even go back to the black-and-white lcd days. But they have evolved to include several hard-buttons for common tasks like volume control and d-pad navigation. Buttons provide important tactile feedback so you can use the remote without having to look at it every time. For that reason I'm not a big fan of them but they can be very easy to use when set up well and certainly have a high cool factor.

[ShadowRunner]

You're getting bogged down with semantics. The word 'casual' gets batted around on forums because it tends to be synonymous with 'non gamer'. If you want a better and more concise description of who MS/Sony should be going after, it should be anyone that does not have a 360/PS3 and has no interest in procuring a 360/PS3 in their current forms and incarnations. That's who they should be going after. Nothing that I've seen so far on Move is doing anything to acquire that client. They seem content to go for the hardcore and Wii sloppy seconds which in my mind is a complete waste of time. Natal for all it's perceived vaporware and technical issues is at least giving it a try.

Except that neither manufacturer should care at all about your opinion, nor should any resources whatsoever be spent to acquire you as an audience. That's the hardest part to get across. You already have the console, you already spend dollars on it, and you already will be spending future dollars on it, so who cares about you anymore (from a business point of view). You're in the bag, you will support your console with your money one way or the other, on plenty of new content already in the pipeline. Natal/Move should have nothing to do with you. If they do, then it's time and resources totally wasted in my mind.


What you are saying makes perfect sense but it is looking at it from the buisness perspective only, not everyone is interested in it from this angle. I have little doubt Natal is going to be a bigger commercial success for MS than Move for Sony, i do however wonder how much of a success it will be to us from a gamers perspective. Many of us are looking at this from a gamers perspective and i believe thier are two seperate discussions to be had here that are caurrently getting muddled. I dont care how many new non-gamers buy a 360 or PS3, i care how i am going to be effected.

From the same point of view we can take a look at the Wii, it has been a huge commercial success but i still hold my 360 above it as a superior product and one i am much happier with. Same with Move/Natal, Natal may be a huge commercial success but what interests me is which one appeals to me and makes me happy. I dont care about the rest of you, its all me me me :lol:

[patsu]

Why, do you want speech recognition to be the only interface going forward? Those heaps of buttons give you quick access to a host of features. You don't have to use every last bit of it if you don't want to, but if you know what you want and how to do it, it lets you be more efficient. Why toss that away when it's optional anyway?

Ha ha, no TV remote does not mean speech recognition. First and forth most, we should only need one easy-to-use remote for the entire Home Theater set up. So it should be called "Living Room remote" or "House remote".

Secondly, you should be able to control the devices via multiple methods. Controller-free, one button, many buttons or out-of-the-house, depending on your needs. Baseline should be "No controller" (if possible). Some games, for example, require quick and subtle input. They may need a buttoned/triggered controller for best effect.

The Wiimote was intimidating to me because I was concerned with pressing the wrong button when I hold it. I was also confused as the console paused when I pointed the Wiimote out of the screen (accidentally).

I didn't get why so many buttons are needed. In the end, they didn't cause any problem, but the first impression was there. I consider the PS Move buttons equally "concerning" as the Wiimote buttons. Nintendo proved that with a good UI, casuals can game with a well designed buttoned controller.

[Crossbar]

Nothing that I've seen so far on Move is doing anything to acquire that client. They seem content to go for the hardcore and Wii sloppy seconds which in my mind is a complete waste of time. Natal for all it's perceived vaporware and technical issues is at least giving it a try.

So you consider Sport Champion, TV Superstar, Move Party, EyePet, Little Big Planet hardcore games? You can see them here: http://www.eurogamer.net/videos/playstation-move-games.

On a side note, the controls of Eyepet definitely looks to have improved with Move.

[tha_con]

You're getting bogged down with semantics. The word 'casual' gets batted around on forums because it tends to be synonymous with 'non gamer'. If you want a better and more concise description of who MS/Sony should be going after, it should be anyone that does not have a 360/PS3 and has no interest in procuring a 360/PS3 in their current forms and incarnations. That's who they should be going after. Nothing that I've seen so far on Move is doing anything to acquire that client. They seem content to go for the hardcore and Wii sloppy seconds which in my mind is a complete waste of time. Natal for all it's perceived vaporware and technical issues is at least giving it a try.
Then please do illustrate to me how Natal is giving it a try? As far as I can tell, they've shown everything just as Sony has, going after the Wii Market (BOP and it's driving, similar to Mario Kart) and existing users (skateboarding and fighting). What exactly are they doing to "pull in that new market" that you talk about? You're pulling this all from your ass. What YOU think they should do, and what they should do in reality are two different things.




Except that neither manufacturer should care at all about your opinion, nor should any resources whatsoever be spent to acquire you as an audience. That's the hardest part to get across. You already have the console, you already spend dollars on it, and you already will be spending future dollars on it, so who cares about you anymore (from a business point of view). You're in the bag, you will support your console with your money one way or the other, on plenty of new content already in the pipeline. Natal/Move should have nothing to do with you. If they do, then it's time and resources totally wasted in my mind.
Really? And why shouldn't they care about my opinion as a consumer? Move will sell at a profit. If they sell it to me, they make a profit. Remind me again how that is bad for them? I mean, what if I bought a PS3 because I didn't like Motion Controls. How exactly would I be "in the bag"? Natal / Move should have EVERYTHING to do with me, because they can sell to an already established user base. Selling exclusively to people who DON'T own the console is far far more difficult, because now you're trying to sell it to someone who already own's a Wii, or wasn't interested in video games in the first place...

Your mind isn't right if you think that's a waste of time and resources. Maximizing profits is the name of the business, and selling to the already established userbase will generate word of mouth buzz, which is what the Wii was all about.




No clue what you're on about here.

Just pointing out your clear disdain for Sony and their products, and you're illustrating a clear double standard. You are poo pooing the Move, while championing Project Natal, when both are clearly after the same market, doing the same thing with different technology. It's pretty clear that you play exclusively for one team.



Natal marketing hasn't really started yet, so not sure what you are comparing it to.

Really? Please do explain to me what all this is:
http://www.xbox.com/en-US/live/projectnatal/

http://www.youtube.com/user/xboxprojectnatal

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/993/993791p1.html

http://www.engadget.com/2010/02/12/project-natal-makes-a-smallville-cameo-does-not-guarantee-abili/

I mean, it seems like they're going out of their way to capture that "Good Morning America" crowd, wouldn't you? Or was that just an accident and it wasn't supposed to be on national television?



This one is hilarious, especially if you knew what was really going on behind the scenes. But there is no way for me to publicly defend it, so I'll just leave it at that.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you refer to yourself as a "drone programmer"? Essentially someone easily replaceable? Maybe I'm being a cynic, but I find it hard to believe that you have some kind of special information roaming around that Move is so terrible, or that Natal is so good.

I'm an enthusiast, nothing more, and all I can honestly do is follow the media. However, I've listened to my fair share of podcasts, followed stories, and watched both products very carefully. If any 'bad news' was rumbling about either product, we would have heard about it by now. The fact that you suggest there is something going on "behind the scenes" is telling, since you're pretty much the only person who's said anything like that.

[Arwin]

Touch screen remotes have existed for a quite a while allowing you to do just this (eg. Philips Pronto). They even go back to the black-and-white lcd days. But they have evolved to include several hard-buttons for common tasks like volume control and d-pad navigation. Buttons provide important tactile feedback so you can use the remote without having to look at it every time. For that reason I'm not a big fan of them but they can be very easy to use when set up well and certainly have a high cool factor.

You are right of course, but the capacitive screens of today are of a really different level of touch interfacing and graphics (once you've chosen your channel, just swipe up and down for volume, left and right for next/previous channel or whatever). And of course, integration could drive things further ... I have a great TV guide app on my iPod, and if I could use that to automatically switch to the right channel (and for my wife, turn on the right components ;) ), that could be a big help too.

Though definitely things could be driven much further than that, and devices like Move and Natal are definitely going to be interesting if they can bring these things together on your TV screen providing an interface that allows you to access everything directly from one user-interface. But that's a little way off yet for sure.

[obonicus]

The iPod Touch interface could be a really awesome TV remote. Take the exact layout that selecting an App has now for instance. What you would have is the bottom row could have the four colors that current remotes typically have, or they could simply default to Favorites / Settings / Guide / Mode.

The default 16 icons above would each correspond to a group of TV channels. The default layout offered could consist of Sports / News / Comedy / Local etc. each represented by a nice graphic that makes clear what it is immediately, with the name of the category below, again just like the basic iPod/iPhone interface is currently.

Once you've selected a category, you can select one of the channels in that category, again just by tapping a tile, probably looking like the logo that most channels currently have on their screen somewhere already anyway.


Isn't that sort of like those fancy Logitech Harmony tablet remotes?

[Shifty Geezer]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you refer to yourself as a "drone programmer"? Essentially someone easily replaceable? Maybe I'm being a cynic, but I find it hard to believe that you have some kind of special information roaming around that Move is so terrible, or that Natal is so good.

I'm an enthusiast, nothing more, and all I can honestly do is follow the media. However, I've listened to my fair share of podcasts, followed stories, and watched both products very carefully. If any 'bad news' was rumbling about either product, we would have heard about it by now. The fact that you suggest there is something going on "behind the scenes" is telling, since you're pretty much the only person who's said anything like that.Not that you can reply for a while, but what Joker is talking about is the overall support and motivation given to developers. By his example, MS are courting developers and encouraging them to create specific Natal titles, whereas Sony aren't. This isn't the sort of backroom chat that'd bubble to the surface en masse. And given Sony's prior, there's every reason to believe Joker and that there's history of Move being delayed (and come on, we know they've had motion experiments for years!), sidelined, and just plomped in front of developers with little push and no long-term vision for developers to get behind.

[joker454]

What you are saying makes perfect sense but it is looking at it from the buisness perspective only, not everyone is interested in it from this angle. I have little doubt Natal is going to be a bigger commercial success for MS than Move for Sony, i do however wonder how much of a success it will be to us from a gamers perspective. Many of us are looking at this from a gamers perspective and i believe thier are two seperate discussions to be had here that are caurrently getting muddled. I dont care how many new non-gamers buy a 360 or PS3, i care how i am going to be effected.

Fair enough :)


Really? And why shouldn't they care about my opinion as a consumer? Move will sell at a profit. If they sell it to me, they make a profit. Remind me again how that is bad for them?

Here's an example. In the typical case, a client has a gaming budget. That budget will get carved up over whatever number of product. So if Joe PS3 has $200/yr to spend on his console, then maybe he spends it buying 4 games.

Now add Move to the mix. Joe PS3 likes Move and buys Move. So this is better for Sony right? Well, no. Sony did not acquire any *new* money from Joe PS3. He was going to be spending $200/yr on his PS3 anyways, but now instead of buying 4 games maybe he buys 3 games and Move. Sony is both not making any more money, and they are not acquiring a new client. So in the end they spent all their marketing and research dollars to effectively compete with themselves.

Suzy Casual though also has a $200/yr budget to spend on fluff. Right now Apple gets the most of it. Suzy Casual doesn't own any console, they are all "killing and shooting" to her so she has no interest. However one day Suzy Casual sees (insert new motion controller totally tailored to her here) in an ad on (insert whatever tv channel and/or publication she frequents here). She likes it and buys it, shifting some of her fluff budget over to this new product. That is the desirable scenario for MS/Sony because they acquired both a new client to whom over time they can also sell other products to (down-loadable movies or whatever), and this client brings a new $200/yr budget into the fold which they previously did not have access to.

That is, or at least should be, each companies goal. That's why I say from a coldly business point of view, the gamers are completely irrelevant when it comes to the new motion controllers.


Just pointing out your clear disdain for Sony and their products, and you're illustrating a clear double standard.

Amusing given that to family and long term friends I'm well known as a Sony whore. Yes, I own tons of Sony products, with three of their video cameras sitting right next to me as I type. It just shows that you really have no clue who or what I am.


Really? Please do explain to me what all this is:

That's teasers. Sit tight, the real marketing is coming.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you refer to yourself as a "drone programmer"? Essentially someone easily replaceable? Maybe I'm being a cynic, but I find it hard to believe that you have some kind of special information roaming around that Move is so terrible, or that Natal is so good.

First you are misreading me. I didn't say Move is terrible and Natal is so good. I'm saying Move's direction is totally wrong, whereas Natals (so far) is more where it should be, but they still have work to do. And yes, they can still screw it all up as well. Getting either of these motion controls to succeed is going to be exceedingly tough, but where I've given up hope on Move I still have some hope for Natal.

Second, just work in games sometime. They are usually small companies where you drink and party with the ceo's. Everyone knows everything, from tech lead to QA, it's a very small world.

[obonicus]

For what it's worth, my point may sound similar to tha_con's, but it's not. I just think that motion control is a false prophet. The number of compelling new ideas on motion controls in Wii's time you can count on one hand -- Motion+ hasn't improved this dramatically, and there isn't enough new in Move to give it the benefit of the doubt. Likewise, in a year I haven't seen a good idea for Natal even as a thought exercise. Gamers suggest that simplification should be the goal, but people here have already pointed out how the arguments of simplicity being 'popular' are fallacious. Likewise, any analysis that goes 'well, Nintendo became successful because they made games no ordinary gamer would care about' is just silly, it's oversimplifying things.

As for giving joker a hard time for his opinions, it's not that I think he's speaking falsehoods, but rather that telling us stuff that touches on the subject but he can't elaborate on doesn't really advance the discussion at all. That's part of it. The other is: unless he's seen something concrete, talking about how one or another product will claim the market isn't so much factual as an article of faith. Which is fine, but not that different from other people who believe strongly about things around here.

So at this point, if someone tells me Natal (or Move, really) is going to be amazing, I expect more than the equivalent of 'because it has a camera and you can move your arms around and soccer moms'.

So, um, joker, I don't really mean to put you on the spot, or at least not more than anyone else telling me stuff I have no reason to believe.

Edit: that's not to say I don't see some virtue to Move's hardcore appeal, but I get about as excited about being more precise in shooters as I do about buying a new overpriced Razer mouse. I'm referring to new experiences, of which I saw none.

[joker454]

Deleted, double post somehow :(

[ShadowRunner]

....

I agree with what you are saying but i also think they have to work with what they have. Natal has a chance of bringing in non-gamers, those that are not intersested in Wii/360/PS3 currently, where as i dont think Move would ever have the same sort of leverage regardless of how they marketed it. IMO Sony realise this and see that they are much more likely to make a success of it selling to current users rather than going directly for the non-gamers, while also adding another string to the PS3s bow if you will, giving just another reason to own it for those who see value in the whole package. With Move PS3 now offers bluray, hardcore games, free online, casual games, unique motion control games, Wii HD games(:wink:), etc. Its easy to forget that there are tons and tons of gamers, forget non-gamers, that dont own a PS3 yet and for these gamers Move could be just another reason to get one. PS2 sold 140mil, if Move gives any of these an extra reason to pick up a PS3 then its a valid addition, regardless of how many extra consoles it sells directly on the back of it, compared to Natal

[ShadowRunner]

Edit: that's not to say I don't see some virtue to Move's hardcore appeal, but I get about as excited about being more precise in shooters as I do about buying a new overpriced Razer mouse. I'm referring to new experiences, of which I saw none.

I agree, im interested in Move not because of the great new experiences its going to offer (though maybe we will see some, who knows.) but because it may be benificial to the experiences i already like. Resident Evil is a perfect example of this, RE4 on the wii made that game much better IMO even though the core experince was the same. To me i really like the Wii interface, the reason its collecting dust is because it doesnt offer the more adult or hardcore game experiences and especially the graphics that i desire, to me Move could be simply the Wii i always wanted. Thats oversimplifying it a bit because i recognise Move has a lot more possibilities than the wiimote that i think could be utilised effectively and would be interested in a hardcore ping pong game that uses 1:1 orientation and xyz positioning in space, but i digress :lol:

[patsu]

RE4 on the wii made that game much better IMO even though the core experince was the same.

How so ? I have not tried it.

[ShadowRunner]

How so ? I have not tried it.

The aiming worked so much better with the pointer, and without any of the bound box issues you get with Wii fps games because of the way you are in either aim mode or move mode in RE games.

In games that have an aim mode where you are pretty much stationary the pointer style aiming works well because everything is laid out in front of you and doesnt need significant camera movement to see each enemy and the analoge stick is also free for camera movement if needed rather than a bound box. Could work well in a cover based game like Gears or Uncharted and actually improve the experience you have with the game rather than it being just a alternative/substitute.

[crabbz]

You are right of course, but the capacitive screens of today are of a really different level of touch interfacing and graphics (once you've chosen your channel, just swipe up and down for volume, left and right for next/previous channel or whatever). And of course, integration could drive things further ... I have a great TV guide app on my iPod, and if I could use that to automatically switch to the right channel (and for my wife, turn on the right components ;) ), that could be a big help too.

Yeah, a gesture based control could be interesting.

Though definitely things could be driven much further than that, and devices like Move and Natal are definitely going to be interesting if they can bring these things together on your TV screen providing an interface that allows you to access everything directly from one user-interface. But that's a little way off yet for sure.

I had hoped Nintendo would do some gesture based dvd control with the Wii (not mouse pointer style), I was excited to see what they would come up with. But as far as I know they never did anything. It will be interesting to see what Sony and MS do here, if anything. I'm surprised Sony hasn't already released some form of XMB control for the Eye.

[Danalys]

Here's an example. In the typical case, a client has a gaming budget. That budget will get carved up over whatever number of product. So if Joe PS3 has $200/yr to spend on his console, then maybe he spends it buying 4 games.


All wrong. They have an entertainment budget that they may have a maximum value for but they don't necessarily need to fulfil, A console manufacturer or publisher need to fight for as much of that entertainment budget as possible, and to keep it at maximum if below maximum, while competing against anything else people could spend money on for entertainment. So increasing the desirability for their current user base makes it more likely for more of that entertainment budget to go to them.

[-tkf-]

I'll admit, I just saw that picture and decided to included it - it probably wasn't the best choice, but the other article I linked to has some great examples of their strategic incompetence http://gizmodo.com/5477633/how-sony-lost-its-way

They really need focus, rather than their current 'lets put everything we can think of out to market and see what sticks' modus operandi, just look at their product lineup:
http://gizmodo.com/5481454/infographic-sonys-overwhelming-gadget-line+up

You could spawn a whole thread about most those product lines and have a really hard time convincing everyone that Sony lost their way. The classic to throw is the proprietary formats, Sony makes money from these, Minidisc made them money until the MP3/Flash Devices were invented. Betacam is standard in the Professional TV World that is still earning them money while VHS is dead. They are very big with the Professional Discs and they even have Flash Based Memory Stick Cams and Blu-Ray "ownz"

Their laptops is considered the only PC choice for those that would have bought a PC Mac. They sell great TV´s. Ohh wait i am close to spawning that thread all by myself.

Did they drop the ball on the Wii audience? Ohhh absolutely, would a Wii remote have saved the PS3 launch? no way, only a cheap console would have saved that.

The Wii wins because it´s what people want, not what gamers want. I think the Natal is more what people want than Move, but Natal has something that the Wii didn´t have. Competition and a audience that expects a certain quality and way of controlling games that they learned from the Wii, anything that doesn´t match that wont reach in to the people segment.

So far, all 3 control systems disappoint me to the point of being useless, i am learning my kid to play on my Gamecube and PS3, like a real gamer :-) (dont burn me)

[corduroygt]

As others have pointed out, this is a fairly silly comparison to begin with.

However, just using raw numbers from the year 2000, 95% of the 100,800,000 houses with televisions had a remote control in the US alone. 76% had multiple telelvisions sets, and hence multiple remote controls.

Lifetime to date world wide, the iPod is only around the 150 million mark for total sales. In other words, television remotes in use in the US any given year right now probably equals the total number of ipods sold to date. It seems to me the television remote is far more popular than the iPod. Worldwide, I've heard estimates of around a billion television sets sold in the history of television. If you assume even only 50% of those had remote controls, your picture argument looks just silly.

I am not sure your picture helped your case at all. Rather, you just proved the other poster's point. TV remotes are far more common that ipods, and have a lot more buttons.

TV's are what, 70 years old and everyone has gotten used to them. Gaming isn't that old and it's constantly evolving, where TV was always about staring at moving pictures in your home.

My point was not comparing an apple remote to a TV remote, but a media center remote.

Also when you want to change to channel 173 with the apple remote, you can press the main button that brings up an on screen phone keypad, where you use the arrows to navigate and enter your channel number. It's easier than looking down on your TV remote in the dark and finding the numbers you want to press.

Move/natal have to target non-gamers, like my grandmother to sell. If you could look at all the wii sales to hardcore gamers, and not include the non-gamers, I bet it would be lower than the 360/PS3 sales.

[joker454]

All wrong. They have an entertainment budget that they may have a maximum value for but they don't necessarily need to fulfil, A console manufacturer or publisher need to fight for as much of that entertainment budget as possible, and to keep it at maximum if below maximum, while competing against anything else people could spend money on for entertainment. So increasing the desirability for their current user base makes it more likely for more of that entertainment budget to go to them.

Sure, same thing. I called it "fluff budget" for the Suzy case, but basically expendable entertainment dollars that get spent wherever. You are still better off going after new client entertainment dollars than working on an existing one, unless you somehow think all your current hardcore audience will totally stop spending on your platform overnight. Plus there is strength in numbers, building a larger audience gives leverage elsewhere, like when negotiating rates for movie distribution deals, etc. Apple is a good example for that, they have a huge audience which gives them leverage over content providers in a variety of ways. Building a huge and varied console audience likewise will pay dividends long term.

I posted many years ago, I think in 2006, how these new consoles actually had little to do with games, where games were just a means to an end for them to control the tv and hence ultimately control that lucrative digital distribution channel (your living room). Building a vast and varied audience today is a stepping stone to that. It's easier to convince content providers to hop on board and support you if you can demonstrate that you have a large and varied audience. They kind of do that now, tossing out XBLive and PSN numbers in press releases, but we know those numbers are kinda bullshit in many ways, and even if true they are still too small to get them to where they need to be. Or worded differently, the hardcore audience simply isn't enough to meet the long term goal of controlling the digital living room, so they need to expand the audience. The Wii served as the proof of concept of this, now both Sony and MS are pushing it as well (finally), although in my mind far more Microsoft than Sony. Incidentally I think Nintendo, while instrumental in starting the "go after a new audience" revolution, will eventually get pushed out and one day transform into purely a content provider, but that's another argument :)


Their laptops is considered the only PC choice for those that would have bought a PC Mac. They sell great TV´s. Ohh wait i am close to spawning that thread all by myself.

Oooh, dangerous topic. If you look into it deeper you'd see that Sony has indeed been pushed aside in many markets, although they still seem to hold tight on some like video cameras. Definitely off topic, but Sony really is off from their trendsetting highs, in many cases they have become also-rans. Tv's especially where companies like Vizio eat their lunch.

[patsu]

You are right of course, but the capacitive screens of today are of a really different level of touch interfacing and graphics (once you've chosen your channel, just swipe up and down for volume, left and right for next/previous channel or whatever). And of course, integration could drive things further ... I have a great TV guide app on my iPod, and if I could use that to automatically switch to the right channel (and for my wife, turn on the right components ;) ), that could be a big help too.


When I travelled to China a couple of months ago, someone lent me a touchscreen phone that would provide some tactile feedback when I interacted with the UI.

The TV and DVR UI have been abyssal for eons. A natural interface TV guide or even a iPhone/iPad/PC/PS3 web browser integrated with a home theater would be great.


Though definitely things could be driven much further than that, and devices like Move and Natal are definitely going to be interesting if they can bring these things together on your TV screen providing an interface that allows you to access everything directly from one user-interface. But that's a little way off yet for sure.

I need to test it personally. e.g., for iPhone/iPad, while the touchscreen is very responsive, I still encounter noticeable lag when playing with a shuffle puck game. PS Move claims to provide rather high spec (i.e., precision) for tracking motion. We shall see how noticeable it is to the final experience.

[Lucid_Dreamer]

Not that you can reply for a while, but what Joker is talking about is the overall support and motivation given to developers. By his example, MS are courting developers and encouraging them to create specific Natal titles, whereas Sony aren't. This isn't the sort of backroom chat that'd bubble to the surface en masse. And given Sony's prior, there's every reason to believe Joker and that there's history of Move being delayed (and come on, we know they've had motion experiments for years!), sidelined, and just plomped in front of developers with little push and no long-term vision for developers to get behind.

In other words, MS is money-hatting/greasing palms and Sony isn't? The reports of over 30 3rd party developers developing Move games aren't true? That sounds suspect.

[Graham]

In other words, MS is money-hatting/greasing palms and Sony isn't? The reports of over 30 3rd party developers developing Move games aren't true? That sounds suspect.

Mod hat

There is no way we can know the financial details of the many deals going on behind the scenes.
This kinda of thinking / writing is very dangerous. I am not trying to single you out, but in two lines you have taken a hypothetical case for one scenario and then used that to question existing known information and honesty of one of the companies involved.
Whereas simply saying "I bet there is a lot of money being thrown about behind the scenes!" would have worked just as well :mrgreen:

As I said earlier, it's OK to speculate on the motivations and future outcomes, but I don't like people writing factually about specific details that we don't know anything about.


...

It's been interesting reading the replies here. Clearly people have very strong feelings :yes:.
ShadowRunner, I appreciate your honesty that you only care about yourself :razz:

The thing is, a lot of us post here because we are interested in the buisiness side of things - and ultimately it's the high risk, large plays that are the most interesting.

Going after small wins and incremental vicotories ultimately isn't good business practice. Sure, it's important, but it shouldn't be the driving factor behind product development and company direction. (Often the smaller pices are simply small parts in a larger strategic play).

This is why I find microsoft most interesting to watch. Of all three companies, they seem to have had the most consistent long term plan (with nintendo a close second).
At the end of this year, they will have a large number of factors aligning themselves. New console hardware, the biggest game release in history (potentially), a major new peripheral, and (I imagine) a number of new core software features will be rolled out too*.

Of course, when their plans don't work out - or are changed at the last minute - they stumble (and stumble most spectacularly). With the obvious knock on effects that entails. You can see this in aspects such as the removable hard drive (which, from what I recall, was rumored to be a cost cutting measure to compensate for doubling the system ram late in development - but that may be totally false).

*This is a total guess on my part, mainly due to the reasons they gave for recently cutting Live support on Xbox 1.


Whereas Sony appear to have / had a 'build it and they will come' attitude. The disconnected nature of their software is a particular sore spot for me.
And take it for what it's worth, but I'll also say I hear a lot of horror stories about Sony management changing their mind seemingly randomly - and most interestingly, a rumor that no Sony product ever dies - it is simply starved of funding and resources until it's important to management again.

...

Which brings on to motion control, where I (like joker) feel Natal is primarily a play to introduce new customers to the Xbox (and it's existing content pool - including hard core games!).

I see the argument about buttons being a barrier to adoption, but I feel it's missing the details: It's not a problem with buttons, it's a problem that corresponding a button to an action is a barrier to entry.
If you looked at a TV remote and all you saw was 'left, right, X, A, Square, Circle, etc', then you'd be totally stumped. Game controllers are an abstraction on an interface - an interface and abstraction gamers are mostly familiar with (I'll be honest and say I still get confused by the circle/X/square/triangle thing almost every time there is an on screen prompt).


The wii was successful because it did a brilliant job of slowly introducing users to these interfaces and abstractions. Anyone could pick it up and see it had buttons - but that doesn't for a second mean anyone could pick it up and instinctively know 'A' equates to 'punch' and 'B' means 'hook', etc.

However, if that person was then shown that physically jabbing the controller in a punch motion performed a punch, well! that's the abstraction gone!

Wii sports and Wii play were brilliant because each game introduced a single level of abstraction. Wii Tennis used a button to lob, bowling used that button to release and also used the Dpad to move left/right. Etc etc.


But the interesting thing to pick out, is that this control scheme still required someone else with more experience to be there to introduce them. Even with the Wii there is a very low chance of an individual totally unfamiliar with games self discovering the system. Think of the in store kiosk example.

I know I've mentioned it before, but I had this experience hammered home to me when I watched my flatmate pickup a wiimote in an electronics store. He got totally confused and put it down. I had to show him that you used a punch motion to punch. There was no way he could have discovered it himself. He then used that single motion to explore the game. Given time he'd have probably discovered new motions, and then slowly discovered abstractions - but only once he was comfortable, and only in his own time.


This is where Natal really interests me, it potentially kills those abstractions and most importantly it is potentially a self discoverable interface - where you already know the natural limits and capabilities, because they what we are already most familiar with - your own body.

Given that, it's a matter of time until the used discovers speech, where they explore it's capabilities. They have fun.
Then they discover simple arcade games which (*shock, horror*) require a couple of buttons on the gamepad! That takes a few weeks of adjustment.
Until finally, 6 months later, they are buying 'hardcore' games like the rest of us. Although they only play them on Easy.

This - in my opinion - is why the Wii is so successful. Yet there is still a *simply massive* market out there. Gaming could easily be 10x the market it is today. It's all about getting over those first few hurdles. That is why Natal interests me.

Of course, it could be a total disaster as well. :mrgreen:

[patsu]

But the interesting thing to pick out, is that this control scheme still required someone else to be there to introduce them. Even with the Wii there is a very low chance of an individual totally unfamiliar with games self discovering the system. Think of the in store kiosk example.

I've mentioned it before, but I had this experience hammered home to me when I watched my flatmate pickup a wiimote in an electronics store. He got totally confused and put it down. I had to show him that you used a punch motion to punch, he then used that single motion to explore the game. Given time he'd have explored new motions, and then abstractions - but only once he was comfortable, and only in his own time.

All he needed was a video showing someone using a Wiimote (e.g., WiiSport). Then the rest is "Monkey see, monkey do". This is similar to seeing the first iPhone ad where the user "pinches" to pick stuff up, or uses his thumb and index finger to scale a picture.

The problem you described may have more to do with Game UI and context issues. Having a controller-free interface doesn't take the problem away. It means we need an intuitive UI.

[Graham]

That is true, but you still need to pick up the controller. And to do that, you need to actively be interested in the product - to be seeking it out or to be shown it.
I'd hazard a guess that most people who aren't interested in games would never dream of doing that - yet if their discovery of the interface could happen naturally, without existing desire (unintended discovery, so to speak) then that opens up a world of marketing possibilities.

But yes, totally correct, the interface is still the core problem. Natal has a massive challenge of making a competent and intuative interface from your body motions. I'm under no illusions that it won't fail spectacularly - and if it does, it'll probably come down to this area.

[patsu]

If the offering is relevant and also inspires the user, then he or she will be compelled to try it. In this manner, I think a controller-free interface would wow them more since they may not have seen such interface before. Many already know what Wii does.

I think it's the overall idea, concept and packaging that counts the most.

If the person sees the EyePet monkey-dog sing along with another gamer, and recognize his drawing, then it is likely that he would want to test it out himself (EyePet is played with PS Move and bare hands).

[obonicus]

I think that's where people are underestimating the value of the usual gamer. Nintendo has a ton of people who will buy the Nintendo console just because that's where the next Mario, or Metroid or Zelda will show up. They're early adopters, they're evangelists. I'm not even talking about just the crazies who buy everything, there's less intense notches on the Nintendo fan-spectrum.

Sony and MS, though, since they're selling accessories, they need to work extra hard to get those core people. They need to convince the a portion of their core audience to become evangelists for their accessories. Some people will do that regardless -- some people are already evangelizing these products without having played a single retail game on them.

[Jerome]

I think the move controller has way too many buttons, all it needs is the trigger, the move button and PS button. no need for select, start, and the square triangle circle x buttons...

Having 8 buttons will still intimidate the consumer.


Guess which one is more popular:
http://edibleapple.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/bhktvcknapzpav96qbkwf7lao1_500.jpg


It's strange you would complain of the Move controller's complexity while pointing out the Apple Remote for its simplicity, considering they have the same number of buttons on their faces (less than the Wii Remote in fact, which has been embraced by everyone from toddlers to the elderly). I think the Move Controller has a pretty good layout, there are just a couple things that could be changed about it to maximize user-friendliness.

1. Instead of its elongated center button and square layout of the four smaller face buttons, they could have gone with a diamond pattern similar to the four-directional-and-OK-button cluster on the 360 remote (and for that matter most modern remotes). This would afford easy reach of all five buttons, while enabling intuitive use of directional mapping for certain controls, like lining up a shot with the left and right buttons in a bowling game, or assigning the zoom-in function to the up button in an FPS. Also, on-screen prompts would be less confusing if each button's symbol directly correlated to its direction, instead of being arbitrary like the current square, circle, etc.

2. The start and select buttons are kind of awkwardly placed on the sides, and for that matter, the select button is a bit of a relic, mostly used these days as a secondary pause/menu access button, bringing up a map or the like, which could easily be integrated into the main pause menu structure. They could have just moved the home button down a bit and put a small button there with a two-vertical-bar pause symbol on it, everybody understands that these days.

Both these things are probably the way they are because Sony wants to make the controls seem more familiar to its core users, but considering they want to appeal to new audiences, I think they should have reconsidered that. The only other reason I can think of is that the Move controller will actually let you play standard PS3 games on it, but that really doesn't seem likely, especially since it lacks a second analog stick.

[patsu]

1. Instead of its elongated center button and square layout of the four smaller face buttons, they could have gone with a diamond pattern similar to the four-directional-and-OK-button cluster on the 360 remote (and for that matter most modern remotes). This would afford easy reach of all five buttons, while enabling intuitive use of directional mapping for certain controls, like lining up a shot with the left and right buttons in a bowling game, or assigning the zoom-in function to the up button in an FPS. Also, on-screen prompts would be less confusing if each button's symbol directly correlated to its direction, instead of being arbitrary like the current square, circle, etc.


Yap ! I was wondering why Sony didn't do this too. It's more intuitive and natural to have the 4 geometry buttons in diamond layout (like DualShock). Or even one giant diamond button.

[Jerome]

But yes, totally correct, the interface is still the core problem. Natal has a massive challenge of making a competent and intuative interface from your body motions.

Right on. It isn't all about buzzwords or "magical" technology automatically solving every interface problem, it's about recognizing the strengths and weaknesses of each technology and using it appropriately. The whole reason motion controls are more intuitive and have less of a learning curve than buttons is because they rely on the existing abilities and knowledge you've gained in the real world, and they can be more fun because they make you feel more directly involved in the game.

If gestures are merely abstract, they're not only no better than buttons, in some ways they're worse, because they're less precise and direct, and may require more conscious thought than just jamming a button.

For some examples, as everyone knows, no hands-free shooting game will ever be as good as it could be if you had a trigger to work with, and no sport that would in real life use a bat, racket, or club will be as good hands-free as it would with something to hold onto (and before somebody replies that you could just use a real bat, racket, or club, just think of the damage people could do to their living rooms -or worse, friends- by swinging these things in a confined space). Also, (semi) intuitive character movement will be tricky because shifting one's body position won't be as precise as a thumb control, and you'll have to be standing and shifting around the whole time you play, which would get tiring quick. By the same token, jump controls will have issues, because you're basically going to have to actually jump or feign jumping (which would get old real fast) or swipe your hand up in the air, which again, would be fairly imprecise and not very intuitive.

Those are just some specific cases, though. Hands-free motion tracking has its uses, and I'm sure developers will find lots of possibilities for it, but they'll have to tailor software to its specific strengths, because by its nature it's got some pretty pronounced limitations.

[temesgen]

Not that you can reply for a while, but what Joker is talking about is the overall support and motivation given to developers. By his example, MS are courting developers and encouraging them to create specific Natal titles, whereas Sony aren't. This isn't the sort of backroom chat that'd bubble to the surface en masse. And given Sony's prior, there's every reason to believe Joker and that there's history of Move being delayed (and come on, we know they've had motion experiments for years!), sidelined, and just plomped in front of developers with little push and no long-term vision for developers to get behind.


With all the crossover potential between Move and Wii isn't it reasonable to expect Sony to get access to developers who will simply port their Wii titles to PS3? Why does Sony have to convince developer to take risk and do something new and unique beyond games with motion controls? Also Sony has a very mature first party team of developers who can certainly find ways to do unique and interesting things with Move not that it matters, motion controlled gaming in and of itself IMO isn't really driving Wii sales to begin with.

TBH I think it is a misnomer to define gamers as causal or hardcore; IMO the appeal that Wii has tapped into is the localized social gaming - family and friends sitting around and gaming in the context of a larger get together. with the key being that the gaming is simple enough that everyone can play and not be intimidated by the learning curve. TO the 360's credit MS has done and excellent job of tapping into non-localized social gaming by way of Live. The challenge for MS will be how to incorporate that localized vibe into Natal. Alternatively if MS can figure out how to have Modern Warfare and Halo 3 clans play natal baseball or volleyball online as an example MS will be well on their way to establishing legs for their peripheral. Sony will have bigger challenges with Move due the added complexity of not having an online platform which is as mature as Live to tap into and leverage for adoption. I think there is a good chance we will a lot of hardcore gamers say they opted for Natal over Move this next year because they want to play games on Live with their friends.

[Crossbar]

Yap ! I was wondering why Sony didn't do this too. It's more intuitive and natural to have the 4 geometry buttons in diamond layout (like DualShock). Or even one giant diamond button.

It´s probably an ergonomical decision. The action button is rather big. A button above and a button below the action button would be rather awkward to reach for a small hand. It´s easier to slide the thumb to the right or left side with just a slight offset in height.

One giant diamond button may be har do to handle when waggling the wand, it may cause to many unintentional button pressures.

[Arwin]

Yap ! I was wondering why Sony didn't do this too. It's more intuitive and natural to have the 4 geometry buttons in diamond layout (like DualShock). Or even one giant diamond button.

I think it's a simple matter of physics. You'll be using your thumb for pressing these buttons, and your thumb has a relatively poor vertical range, but excellent horizontal range. This shape makes better use of the thumbs range than a diamond shape ever could, especially with the pressure sensitive front button being rectangular in shape.

EDIT: beaten. :D

[rabidrabbit]

It´s probably an ergonomical decision. The action button is rather big. A button above and a button below the action button would be rather awkward to reach for a small hand. It´s easier to slide the thumb to the right or left side with just a slight offset in height.

One giant diamond button may be har do to handle when waggling the wand, it may cause to many unintentional button pressures.
Yes, and if the buttons were on diamond shape around the action buttons, the X button would be too easy to push accidentally when you rest your thumb on the big action button.
The Sony Blu-ray remote has those buttons similarily laid out, and after a bit of getting used to it's just fine.

[Shifty Geezer]

In other words, MS is money-hatting/greasing palms and Sony isn't? The reports of over 30 3rd party developers developing Move games aren't true? That sounds suspect.Why is it only a matter of money-hatting? Some people seems to have pretty limited views that it's cash-on-hand transactions alone that makes the world go round! Developers are going to have to invest time and effort into getting motion games up and running. If the future for a platform looks weak (EyeToy) then they won't bother much. If the future looks strong, they'll invest early on. If MS is presenting developers with a 5 year development plan, loads of tools and services and support, financial backing for multiple contracts over a 5 year period, and information about bundled peripherals and predictions of significant install bases, a developer will see Natal as a worthwhile investment with good chance of dividends, no? Whereas if MS offer Natal devkits and that's it, don't say anything about future plans, maybe bankroll a few launch titles but don't offer any long-term securities so the development of the launch title technologies may end up being binned if the platform flunks, and leave developers floundering around trying to learn how to apply the tech, are developers going to be enthusiastic, release quality titles and help the platform grow? I think not.

Hopefully the above illustrates the business sense and contributions a console company can make that go beyond just paying developers to make a title. Now I'm not in the industry so I don't know what MS and Sony are offering as backing for their motion controls initiatives to developers, but I will certainly listen to those who have ties with the industry if they say there's a big difference between how the platform holders are handling this.

With all the crossover potential between Move and Wii isn't it reasonable to expect Sony to get access to developers who will simply port their Wii titles to PS3? Which is kinda the problem, no? PS3 will just be WiiHD, and sales of Wii titles aren't particularly great unless created by Nintendo. That is, if it weren't for Nintendo's first-party efforts, Wii would have failed because 3rd parties weren't creating the necessary titles to make it work at launch and in the early years.
Also Sony has a very mature first party team of developers who can certainly find ways to do unique and interesting things with Move not that it mattersThat is perhaps Sony's saving grace. I don't know if Joker has heard about Sony's internal efforts or his perspective is coming only from how 3rd parties are being included/excluded in Move's vision. It could be there's enough 1st party diversity and sophistication to make Move work. However, what's shown so far isn't particularly encouraging. As Joker says, what has been shown to attract new customers that haven't bought PS360 or Wii yet, who will now get PS3 because of Move? Although IMO PS3's USP is "it only does everything" and adding motion controls will be another reason to tip the scale in PS3's favour, rather than needing a killer app. But still, it needs sufficient software for Move to be a worthwhile purchase. What has been shown so far hasn't been that wonderful.

[ShadowRunner]

I wonder if joker or anyone else can elaborate on the rumours we have heard about Natals support from developers. I remember reading that support for the device had dropped, i think around the time the news of the processing being moved to 360, apparently many projects were being scaled back and budgets were being cut significantly. Think it was said on 1up podcast and repeated in a few articles (probably based on the 1up guys comments knowing how the media works), cant seam to find the articles though im no good at google hehe.

I appreciate the insider comments we have had about the issue of support. While i have no trouble believing Sony is going about its buisness in a half-assed fashion i can also see why people would take it with a pinch of salt. It kind of flies in the face of everything we have seen ourselves as outsiders with actual games being announced for move and exclusives like tiger woods and the next EA sports Active. As outsiders we have seen the opposite so if jokers comments do reflect the actual state of things it certainly looks like the total opposite from the outside, and also from what we have heard from other 'insiders'.

[Jerome]

It´s probably an ergonomical decision. The action button is rather big. A button above and a button below the action button would be rather awkward to reach for a small hand. It´s easier to slide the thumb to the right or left side with just a slight offset in height.

That's basically because Sony chose to make the central button elongated. It didn't have to be that way. The main action button on the Wii is round and it works fine (though maybe that's part of the reason why it's oblong, it doesn't seem quite as much of a Wiimote copy that way).

I think it's a simple matter of physics. You'll be using your thumb for pressing these buttons, and your thumb has a relatively poor vertical range, but excellent horizontal range. This shape makes better use of the thumbs range than a diamond shape ever could, especially with the pressure sensitive front button being rectangular in shape.

You're right, a diamond pattern wouldn't be that great with an elongated central button, but that's not what I was suggesting. Also, it's true that your thumb has better horizontal range than vertical, but that isn't so much the question as whether or not its vertical range is good enough. I haven't heard people complaining about the Triangle and X buttons on the Dual Shock being too far for their thumbs to reach (about 1.3 inches in total height), and you could get a slightly enlarged central button with 4 slimmer oval buttons around it in the same height or just a touch more.

if the buttons were on diamond shape around the action buttons, the X button would be too easy to push accidentally when you rest your thumb on the big action button.

Okay, that seems a legitimate concern, but it could be minimized, both by having you grip the controller so that the tip of your thumb, instead of its bulk, rests on the central button, and by not making the four smaller buttons stick up too high.

[scently]

Well according to this website, based on their recent experience with Natal, it can track fingers.
http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http://www.3djuegos.com/juegos/avances/5893/1911/0/project-natal/&sl=auto&tl=en

[Crossbar]

That's basically because Sony chose to make the central button elongated. It didn't have to be that way. The main action button on the Wii is round and it works fine (though maybe that's part of the reason why it's oblong, it doesn't seem quite as much of a Wiimote copy that way).

Yes that is probably a consequence of that Sony didn´t opt to make Move look like a remote.

Nintendo choose the look of a remote to lower the threshold of new gamers, probably a wise choice at the time. With a light bulb in the end Move wouldn´t look like a remote anyways and now as motion gaming has been well establised the barriers have pretty much been removed, so why not make it more appropiate for swinging around, like the handle of a tennis racket?

To get a firm grip you probably want to be able to rest your thumb against the wand without pressing any buttons, hence no button below the action button.

[Billy Idol]

Suzy Casual...
Somehow sounds like a hot chick...may I ask for her address or phone number :mrgreen:

I completely agree with Joker that the potential of Natal is much higher compared to Move!
I mean, Natal has the potential of being unique...Move obviously don't...and I think that uniqueness is rather good for marketing a product :wink:

But, and this is my honest opinion (which seems to be unique across this forum), I hope that these motion controller+3D mambo jumbo stuff dies a fast and terrible death.
Both, MS and Sony, should better spend the money for making "standard" AAA games!

[Arwin]

To get a firm grip you probably want to be able to rest your thumb against the wand without pressing any buttons, hence no button below the action button.

I think a lot of people are completely overlooking the pressure sensitive buttons on the back and front of the controller (the pressure pad and the trigger). If you look at the 'puppet' demo, these are what allow a user to control the opening and closing of the hand.

The combination of precise 3D tracking, rumble and these two pressure sensitive buttons are very important.

I also expect the light-bulb functionality to appeal to casuals more than expected.

[dragonelite]

Well according to this website, based on their recent experience with Natal, it can track fingers.
http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http://www.3djuegos.com/juegos/avances/5893/1911/0/project-natal/&sl=auto&tl=en


Man mind explodes in ways to make a finger tracking rts game if this is true.

*Move openhand for camera movement.
*Rotate openhand for camera rotation(steering movement).
*Use four fingers two from each hand to select
*Move both fingers diagonal for square selection field

[patsu]

Yap ! I believe when they said no finger tracking earlier, they were referring specifically to individual finger tracking in the skeleton model. You don't have to use the skeleton model. The camera (even PS Eye) has always been able to track the overall hand gesture/shape.


It´s probably an ergonomical decision. The action button is rather big. A button above and a button below the action button would be rather awkward to reach for a small hand. It´s easier to slide the thumb to the right or left side with just a slight offset in height.

One giant diamond button may be har do to handle when waggling the wand, it may cause to many unintentional button pressures.

As Jerome mentioned, the button could be circular, with a diamond shape layout.

If it's one giant button... It's true that one giant button is harder to handle while waggling, but the developers can choose to treat its corners logically the same while the controller is in-motion (i.e., as one big button). This should solve the "no other button under the action button" problem. The users can still use the directional corners when the controller is stationary, or when no firm grip is needed. It will work exactly like the current layout.

It may be an implementation/cost issue.


I think a lot of people are completely overlooking the pressure sensitive buttons on the back and front of the controller (the pressure pad and the trigger). If you look at the 'puppet' demo, these are what allow a user to control the opening and closing of the hand.

The combination of precise 3D tracking, rumble and these two pressure sensitive buttons are very important.

I also expect the light-bulb functionality to appeal to casuals more than expected.

Yes, that's my sense too. I think the pressure sensitive button, the analog trigger, and the light bulb will allow for more expressive control and feedback (e.g., grabbing a kid/friend's hand, preventing him from falling over a ledge, and then pull him up).

All these expressiveness are more than mere "precision". Whether Sony has an app that can demonstrate these benefits at launch is another question altogether.

[temesgen]

Why is it only a matter of money-hatting? Some people seems to have pretty limited views that it's cash-on-hand transactions alone that makes the world go round! Developers are going to have to invest time and effort into getting motion games up and running. If the future for a platform looks weak (EyeToy) then they won't bother much. If the future looks strong, they'll invest early on. If MS is presenting developers with a 5 year development plan, loads of tools and services and support, financial backing for multiple contracts over a 5 year period, and information about bundled peripherals and predictions of significant install bases, a developer will see Natal as a worthwhile investment with good chance of dividends, no? Whereas if MS offer Natal devkits and that's it, don't say anything about future plans, maybe bankroll a few launch titles but don't offer any long-term securities so the development of the launch title technologies may end up being binned if the platform flunks, and leave developers floundering around trying to learn how to apply the tech, are developers going to be enthusiastic, release quality titles and help the platform grow? I think not.

Hopefully the above illustrates the business sense and contributions a console company can make that go beyond just paying developers to make a title. Now I'm not in the industry so I don't know what MS and Sony are offering as backing for their motion controls initiatives to developers, but I will certainly listen to those who have ties with the industry if they say there's a big difference between how the platform holders are handling this.

Which is kinda the problem, no? PS3 will just be WiiHD, and sales of Wii titles aren't particularly great unless created by Nintendo. That is, if it weren't for Nintendo's first-party efforts, Wii would have failed because 3rd parties weren't creating the necessary titles to make it work at launch and in the early years.
That is perhaps Sony's saving grace. I don't know if Joker has heard about Sony's internal efforts or his perspective is coming only from how 3rd parties are being included/excluded in Move's vision. It could be there's enough 1st party diversity and sophistication to make Move work. However, what's shown so far isn't particularly encouraging. As Joker says, what has been shown to attract new customers that haven't bought PS360 or Wii yet, who will now get PS3 because of Move? Although IMO PS3's USP is "it only does everything" and adding motion controls will be another reason to tip the scale in PS3's favour, rather than needing a killer app. But still, it needs sufficient software for Move to be a worthwhile purchase. What has been shown so far hasn't been that wonderful.

I think this is a bit of a double standard here - if all if Wii's success is coming from internally designed software why does Sony have to attract 3rd parties? Sony arguably has the best 1st party developers already working on their platform. Furthermore I don't buy into the idea that motion controlled games have to offer unique and compelling experiences - that is counter to what is happening with the Wii. Wii is successful because it is a social gaming platform, people gather around the TV and play a ordinary games with low learning curves which allows everyone to interact on a level playing field. The interface is not a barrier to entertainment for anyone in the group. And again the design of Move facilitates easy ports of Wii titles to PS3 which expands the number of titles available on the system if you want to say that Move needs sufficient software.

[LightHeaven]

Well according to this website, based on their recent experience with Natal, it can track fingers.
http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http://www.3djuegos.com/juegos/avances/5893/1911/0/project-natal/&sl=auto&tl=en

They've tested the same old ricochet demo with the same old natal prototype... So i guess they are just tripping :P

[Shifty Geezer]

I think this is a bit of a double standard here - if all if Wii's success is coming from internally designed software why does Sony have to attract 3rd parties?Hang on! That wasn't my argument! I was advocating Joker's position and explaining how Sony could be being lacklustre in their approach to Move. I haven't said Move would fail or succeed based on 3rd party endeavours. I've always said it'll win/lose based on software. Where that software comes from doesn't much matter. If Sony throw out amazing 1st party titles, good for them. If they court 3rd parties and create a positive torrent of Move content, good for them.

Sony arguably has the best 1st party developers already working on their platform. Furthermore I don't buy into the idea that motion controlled games have to offer unique and compelling experiences - that is counter to what is happening with the Wii. Wii is successful because it is a social gaming platform, people gather around the TV and play a ordinary games...Those games were unique. If Wii offered all the Wii titles only on a standard controller, wouldl it have succeeded?
And again the design of Move facilitates easy ports of Wii titles to PS3 which expands the number of titles available on the system if you want to say that Move needs sufficient software.It's not just sufficient software, but differntiating. If PS3 offers the Wii experience, why buy a £300 PS3 when a £150 will offer the same, as well as being the brand for motion controls?
Sony's position here has to be, "why are people going to buy a PS3," and they need to be considering what is Move going to provide them in that respect. Which is the question to post to you and other advocates - why will people buy PS3 and Move? IMO it'll be because PS3 offers an all-in-one platform for entertainment, and Move won't necessarily have to differentiate from Wii in order to appeal. But there is a case that lack of differentiation will result in people sticking with the cheaper, more popular Wii, and some killer apps would help strengthen Move's position. Joker's position on this AFAICS is that any killer apps won't be coming from 3rd parties who see Move as pretty much still-born, and I suppose he doesn't see killer apps coming from their 1st parties either, but he'd have to comment on that (or not, if he doesn't care!).

To make my position clear, I'm not 'down' or 'up' on Move. I believe Sony have fumbled around. I believe they could make a success of it. I believe the probably have messed up 3rd parties instead of pulling them on board, and they may or may not have a decent lineup, although history suggests this'll be fairly weak.

[temesgen]

I think this is a bit of a double standard here - if all if Wii's success is coming from internally designed software why does Sony have to attract 3rd parties?[/qupte]

[QUOTE]Hang on! That wasn't my argument! I was advocating Joker's position and explaining how Sony could be being lacklustre in their approach to Move. I haven't said Move would fail or succeed based on 3rd party endeavours. I've always said it'll win/lose based on software. Where that software comes from doesn't much matter. If Sony throw out amazing 1st party titles, good for them. If they court 3rd parties and create a positive torrent of Move content, good for them.

That clears things up -we agree here

Those games were unique. If Wii offered all the Wii titles only on a standard controller, wouldl it have succeeded? It's not just sufficient software, but differntiating. If PS3 offers the Wii experience, why buy a £300 PS3 when a £150 will offer the same, as well as being the brand for motion controls?

I think the argument Sony is settling on is cost - Blu Ray, hardcore gaming device and motion control device individually is more than what PS3 with Move will likely cost. I am sure more than a few families will be trying to decide between a younger kid who wants a Wii, a teenager who wants a 360/PS3 and a dad who wants a Blue Ray player. Not to mention the cost of supporting the migration in terms of software and hardware peripherals.

Sony's position here has to be, "why are people going to buy a PS3," and they need to be considering what is Move going to provide them in that respect. Which is the question to post to you and other advocates - why will people buy PS3 and Move? IMO it'll be because PS3 offers an all-in-one platform for entertainment, and Move won't necessarily have to differentiate from Wii in order to appeal. But there is a case that lack of differentiation will result in people sticking with the cheaper, more popular Wii, and some killer apps would help strengthen Move's position. Joker's position on this AFAICS is that any killer apps won't be coming from 3rd parties who see Move as pretty much still-born, and I suppose he doesn't see killer apps coming from their 1st parties either, but he'd have to comment on that (or not, if he doesn't care!).

I don't want to be seen as picking on Joker but this argument is hypocritical - we already know that 3rd parties are putting out shovelware on Wii and that all the compelling software is largely coming from Nintendo. Having said that most of this software is benefiting from well defined mascots and concepts that lend themselves to motion controls. We don't have new and unique compelling game play experiences driving Wii success - it is simple game play mechanics with high production values combined with leveraging established franchises in the case of Nintendo 1st party software which is driving sales.

To make my position clear, I'm not 'down' or 'up' on Move. I believe Sony have fumbled around. I believe they could make a success of it. I believe the probably have messed up 3rd parties instead of pulling them on board, and they may or may not have a decent lineup, although history suggests this'll be fairly weak.

We are in agreement again - I am not an advocate of Move or Natal for that matter. Generally speaking 1st party peripherals which fracture the base are a bad idea. I would like to see numbers on Wii Fit for comparison sake but there Nintendo capitalized on the emotional driven sales of fitness equipment and I wouldn't be surprised if a large number of Wii Fit boards are packed in the closet at this point. Adoption of Motion Plus is probably more relevant and it appears that Motion Plus hasn't really caught on. The point here being that a fitness application might help drive early adoption but in all likeliness the motion control add-ons won't be successful. But I do think that the easy portability of Wii titles to Move along with the additional value that the PS3 presents with Blu Ray mean PS3 specs out just as well as 360. IMO some people here are holding Sony to a higher standard that's all.

[Crossbar]

Those games were unique. If Wii offered all the Wii titles only on a standard controller, wouldl it have succeeded?
It's not just sufficient software, but differntiating. If PS3 offers the Wii experience, why buy a £300 PS3 when a £150 will offer the same, as well as being the brand for motion controls?
Indeed, the price of the PS3 will remain one of it´s strongest enemies. It may be one of the reasons why move was postponed to fall, there may be another price drop coming or they will just bundle Move at the current price point.

Sony's position here has to be, "why are people going to buy a PS3," and they need to be considering what is Move going to provide them in that respect. Which is the question to post to you and other advocates - why will people buy PS3 and Move? IMO it'll be because PS3 offers an all-in-one platform for entertainment, and Move won't necessarily have to differentiate from Wii in order to appeal. But there is a case that lack of differentiation will result in people sticking with the cheaper, more popular Wii, and some killer apps would help strengthen Move's position. Joker's position on this AFAICS is that any killer apps won't be coming from 3rd parties who see Move as pretty much still-born, and I suppose he doesn't see killer apps coming from their 1st parties either, but he'd have to comment on that (or not, if he doesn't care!).

To make my position clear, I'm not 'down' or 'up' on Move. I believe Sony have fumbled around. I believe they could make a success of it. I believe the probably have messed up 3rd parties instead of pulling them on board, and they may or may not have a decent lineup, although history suggests this'll be fairly weak.

I think it is pretty obvious that any third party support of Natal and Move dedicated games must be funded in some way because the install base of Natal and Move will be very small at launch. It will be a small chance to recoup the costs.
So where do you get most bang for the bucks if you want to have a decent line up of games when you launch. If you go to a third party they want you to pay a risk premium so they will not lose money if the game or the motion control flops. If you go to an internal studio you only risk the development cost and you will have all of the upside if the game is a hit.

Microsoft has few studios hence they will depend more on third parties than Sony who has a greater number of studios.

There is also the possibility that Sony is not aiming for a big flash bang introduction this year because they know they can not compete on price with the others. Maybe they will see it as more of slow burner this year building up a decent installed base of Move controllers and do another push next year when the PS3 is likely to close in on the magical $200 price range.

The fact that Move can easily be incorporated in ordinary games (when used with the DS3 or the sub controller) will also be a mean to attract Move buyers among the existing console owners and help build the installed base. Someone buys a games (e.g. SOCOM) and finds out that there are modes supported by Move and want to try it out, works like a kind of a Trojan horse.

Sony may want crossplatform developers to offer both the ordinary DS3 control scheme and the Wii control scheme in the PS3 version of the game. Of course they would like Sony to fund that in some way as well. Perhaps some developer could confirm if anything like that is taking place?

[patsu]

Wii is successful because it is a social gaming platform, people gather around the TV and play a ordinary games with low learning curves which allows everyone to interact on a level playing field. The interface is not a barrier to entertainment for anyone in the group.

I think it's more than that. The living room social gaming angle is indeed powerful. Nintendo was (still is) also smart in choosing and implement the right games for Wii's audience. WiiSports and WiiFit make day-to-day activities into a cute, relaxing and fun "vacation". The flagship titles are all rather relevant to an average person's life. No zombies, marines, mafia, aliens or intense competition is needed.

If you look at Sony's collection (The Shoot, Slider, Champions Online), they are mostly the same old gamer stuff. EyePet stood out because it's more like a Nintendo title in theme, but I don't know if it has the depth. A mistake is to think that casuals don't need depth. e.g., Afrika is a wonderful title, but it is rather shallow. Within a few minutes, my wife handed me the controller back and said the game is rather limited. I think Nintendo titles like WiiSport are very well made, and are able to hold consumers' attention despite Wiimote's technical limitations.

I had lunch with a Wii gamer friend yesterday. He mentioned that he enjoys the sports games on Wii very much. But he hasn't heard of Wiimote plus. ^_^

WiiSports alone was able to keep his family entertained and satisfied. So they won't go look for something better. However if someone show them Wiimote plus, PS Move or Natal, I'm sure they will be able to discern the differences. The challenge lies in how the vendors communicate and inspire the consumers. They need to be able to tell the differences before playing the game, even if it is a gimmicky move.

[Danalys]

I think initially some 3rd parties could get away with cheap to produce games that use the novelty of the new control methods to sell. The shoot for example I doubt costs much. Eyetoy games didn't cost much. There's loads of places to take these novel interfaces from for PS3 games. You can take controls from DS, Iphone and Wii games. All interfaces that have appealed to huge amounts of people already, but that can probably be enjoyed more with slicker presentation or on your big screen. That's not even counting the 3rd party games that can simply take the Wii version controls and add them to the HD version of those games as an option for little extra cost. Enough games like that and move becomes an interesting upgrade to experiences you would already play.

[patsu]

The platform holder can take that approach and let 3rd party developers define their new experiences in a haphazard way. It will have implications on how consumers perceive the effort. The most likely outcome is that it will become exactly like an "Also Ran", "Mii Too !", or failed peripheral experiment.

If done the proper way, the platform holder should define *tangible* benefits in a *uniform* user experience across titles. Changing the XMB is the "cheapest" way to start projecting that new experience. Introducing *consistent* elements into PS Move games will further extend that new experiences.

It's like that PrimeSense promo video... _if_ you could use PS Move/Eye on Blu-ray movies and games, it means a new natural interface era has arrived on Playstation.

EDIT: Sony keeps hinting that they will treat PS Move as a new platform, but I'm not seeing it from consumer perspective yet. If it's like their PS Home platform effort, I think they may want to save the money.

[scently]

Actually it is a newer demo of the said ricochet game. It was presented in Madrid a few days ago. Anyway here is a post from neogaf with more links.
It seems like Microsoft demoed a newer Natal and Ricochet build in Madrid a couple of days ago. There are three enthusiastic write ups here (http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.meristation.com/v3/des_noticia.php%3Fid%3Dcw4bbb5a0929c3a%26pic%3DGEN&ei=BgG-S9vCAYeJOKTviYoK&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CFUQ7gEwBw&prev=/search%3Fq%3DNatal%2BMadrid%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa %3DX%26tbo%3D1%26rlz%3D1G1GGLQ_ENUK249%26tbs%3Dqdr :d) and here (http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.scorezero.com/nos-dejamos-la-piel-con-project-natal/) and here (http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://es.engadget.com/2010/04/06/project-natal-lo-probamos-con-nuestros-huesos/&rurl=translate.google.co.uk&twu=1&usg=ALkJrhhOMa5nhdT4ZlfuX2g1QwdHEqhrsA), using google translate unfortunately, and a brief video which only has a couple of seconds of screen time --

http://i41.tinypic.com/15hy815.jpg

From their impressions they seem really impressed by it, also noting that it is also not the final version which will be seen at e3 2010. In one of the videos you can clearly see the guy using his fingers to grab what I will assume is the menu ball.
Please try not to spin this or compare.

Take it for what it is.

[Squilliam]

My suspicions about the Sony 1st parties potential success on Move really do stem around the fact that whilst they may make software which makes reviewers wet and horny, they don't make software which swings for the fences and cracks the 5-10M barriers respectively. They are completely different from Nintendo in that respect which makes me question their ability to release massively compelling system selling software for the Move when as far as I can tell they haven't published a new I.P. 5M+ selling game since the days of the PS1.

Their first party lack of massive sellout games are further compounded by the fact that they have much more expensive overall software development and it would be risky for them to pull their front line developers, Naughty Dogs etc of this world off their beaten and safe path to try to make Move games from the ground up. This leaves their 2nd and 3rd tier developers, the studios we don't hear about to bear the brunt. Considering like for like interfaces bringing your 2nd tier developers into a competitive and comparative contest against Nintendo's 1st tier developers is a poor recipe especially as after 4-5 years of development the Nintendo developers are onto their second and third generation games having learnt from mistakes that the Sony developers are only just discovering. It doesn't look good for Sony.

Their third party problem is not only that developers will be porting many of the same games to the Wii as the Move simply doesn't have the userbase, they cannot claim them for themselves. But also many developers are probably motion fatigued at this point as im sure behind the scenes there are numerous examples of games simply not working, not selling, games being cancelled because they couldn't get the interface to work properly etc. How are they going to snap third parties of of a 'wait and see' mindset in terms of committing their best design talent to the concept?

Their fourth problem is time. If they are quite successful with the Move, it'll still take at least a couple of years before they can build up a decent userbase. They are releasing Move in late 2010, so even if they are relatively more successful than optimistic projections here, theres nothing which stops Nintendo from saying sometime between 2011 and early 2013 "I want your clothes, your boots and your motorcycle" or roughly translated, console audience, 3rd party games and momentum. Nintendo coming into the next generation will have all the third party support they would want and they will be able to offer a whole new console with new controls for a price comparable to the price of adding Move to a PS3, so do they abandon the current generation with their control system still in its infancy or do they hold off and hope that Nintendo won't steal their lunch before they even get to school? A next generation Nintendo system will be technically formidable relative to the PS3 and when you have a large proportion of tech heads just waiting to jump on the next big thing, it can be a problem.

[eloyc]

From their impressions they seem really impressed by it, also noting that it is also not the final version which will be seen at e3 2010. In one of the videos you can clearly see the guy using his fingers to grab what I will assume is the menu ball.


All the comments are very, very positive, indeed: high accuracy (the demo also reflects the speed/strenght of your moves) and a funny, promising experience, after all.

There's only a little complaint about a minimal lag, a bit more noticeable with two players on screen, but not even a problem, according to the source (the second link).

Still, Natal isn't that revolutionary, in my opinion. Motion controls without a controller and gesture recognition had a clear "pioneer" the last generation, which was the EyeToy. Sorry, if you find that I'm way too repetitive on this :lol:, but I can't stand how Microsoft shows off Natal as something "mind-blowingly revolutionary". Well, somehow it is... technically... but... oh, well... ¿¬_¬.

[scently]

All the comments are very, very positive, indeed: high accuracy (the demo also reflects the speed/strenght of your moves) and a funny, promising experience, after all.

There's only a little complaint about a minimal lag, a bit more noticeable with two players on screen, but not even a problem, according to the source (the second link).

Still, Natal isn't that revolutionary, in my opinion. Motion controls without a controller and gesture recognition had a clear "pioneer" the last generation, which was the EyeToy. Sorry, if you find that I'm way too repetitive on this :lol:, but I can't stand how Microsoft shows off Natal as something "mind-blowingly revolutionary". Well, somehow it is... technically... but... oh, well... ¿¬_¬.

The iphone and ipod are clearly pioneers.:wink:

[Danalys]

I know Nintendo's first party games have been massive sellers but the amount of individual games they've put out on the Wii, Sony could probably match just having each of their big developers produce one game each, creating as much of a platform from a 1st party perspective as Nintendo have. and this doesn't have to happen all in one year keeping the hardcore happy. Alot of franchises they have are coming to a natural stopping point anyway. They can always bundle a controller with the next big first party game that needs one.

They don't necessarily need to learn from making mistakes themselves. You can learn from other peoples mistakes aswell.

I think that assuming Nintendo can just come in with a new console and take their audience is like the expectations that the PS3 would just do aswell as the PS2.

[LightHeaven]

Actually it is a newer demo of the said ricochet game. It was presented in Madrid a few days ago. Anyway here is a post from neogaf with more links.


From their impressions they seem really impressed by it, also noting that it is also not the final version which will be seen at e3 2010. In one of the videos you can clearly see the guy using his fingers to grab what I will assume is the menu ball.
Please try not to spin this or compare.

Take it for what it is.

Holy crap o.O

[eloyc]

The iphone and ipod are clearly pioneers.:wink:
Ok, I'll tweak my post a little bit... :mad:

[...]Still, Natal isn't that revolutionary, in my opinion. Motion controls without a controller and gesture recognition, based on camera input, had a clear "pioneer" the last generation, which was the EyeToy. Sorry, if you find that I'm way too repetitive on this , but I can't stand how Microsoft shows off Natal as something "mind-blowingly revolutionary". Well, somehow it is... technically... but... oh, well... ¿¬_¬.

Better, now? :grin:

[scently]

Ok, I'll tweak my post a little bit... :mad:



Better, now? :grin:
No its not.:cool:

[eloyc]

No its not.:cool:
Why?

Oh, and I'm referring to consoles. Could you tell me what console device/accessory is the pioneer in motion controls and gesture recognition through camera input, then? :???:

[Squilliam]

I know Nintendo's first party games have been massive sellers but the amount of individual games they've put out on the Wii, Sony could probably match just having each of their big developers produce one game each, creating as much of a platform from a 1st party perspective as Nintendo have. and this doesn't have to happen all in one year keeping the hardcore happy. Alot of franchises they have are coming to a natural stopping point anyway. They can always bundle a controller with the next big first party game that needs one.

How exactly are Sony going to match the efforts of Nintendo when up to this date they haven't come close? Its not enough to simply say that the product is the equivalent, there have been many equivalents to Gran Turismo over the years and yet the Gran Turismo brand holds firm. However in the reverse there have been many more Zelda, Wii Sports, Wii Fit clones and none have yet to match the sales or the effectiveness in the market of the original Nintendo product. This is especially evident when the originals have burnt out all the excitement for the product range leaving very little market where the fore-runners have not trod.

They don't necessarily need to learn from making mistakes themselves. You can learn from other peoples mistakes aswell.

Wii Music was probably Nintendos biggest mistake, to prove they have made any others you'd need to assign your top flight developers to show how they haven't implemented their games as well as they could have. Its one thing to say that Wii Sports Tennis is flawed and limited, and its another thing to come in after and actually prove the case. Im not talking about metacritic aggregates, im talking about raw sales numbers.

I think that assuming Nintendo can just come in with a new console and take their audience is like the expectations that the PS3 would just do aswell as the PS2.

The PS3 could have taken their original audience and in many cases they had especially in Japan where they had over 50% attach rate for Final Fantasy XIII. However now the aura is broken the expectation that any series not made by Sony is open season for a next generation console now reigns. It takes two generations to truely break the back of an incumbant software house just as it took two generations for Nintendo to fall from the N64 to the Gamecube as the former still had market expectation on its side.

Its Nintendos battle to lose and not the other way around. All the third parties will give everything they have to ensure they aren't left behind on a next generation Nintendo home console. They would be foolish to not anticipate another home run as its the safest bet they can make ahead of time. Theres no reason to not expect that the Nintendo console for example in Japan will not be getting a full version Final Fantasy game or the next Call Of Duty.

[Danalys]

How exactly are Sony going to match the efforts of Nintendo when up to this date they haven't come close? Its not enough to simply say that the product is the equivalent, there have been many equivalents to Gran Turismo over the years and yet the Gran Turismo brand holds firm. However in the reverse there have been many more Zelda, Wii Sports, Wii Fit clones and none have yet to match the sales or the effectiveness in the market of the original Nintendo product. This is especially evident when the originals have burnt out all the excitement for the product range leaving very little market where the fore-runners have not trod.



Wii Music was probably Nintendos biggest mistake, to prove they have made any others you'd need to assign your top flight developers to show how they haven't implemented their games as well as they could have. Its one thing to say that Wii Sports Tennis is flawed and limited, and its another thing to come in after and actually prove the case. Im not talking about metacritic aggregates, im talking about raw sales numbers.



The PS3 could have taken their original audience and in many cases they had especially in Japan where they had over 50% attach rate for Final Fantasy XIII. However now the aura is broken the expectation that any series not made by Sony is open season for a next generation console now reigns. It takes two generations to truely break the back of an incumbant software house just as it took two generations for Nintendo to fall from the N64 to the Gamecube as the former still had market expectation on its side.

Its Nintendos battle to lose and not the other way around. All the third parties will give everything they have to ensure they aren't left behind on a next generation Nintendo home console. They would be foolish to not anticipate another home run as its the safest bet they can make ahead of time. Theres no reason to not expect that the Nintendo console for example in Japan will not be getting a full version Final Fantasy game or the next Call Of Duty.

Okay first of all I don't expect Sony's first parties to sell more than Nintendo. I'm just not writing them off as not helping establish move as a continuing part of the Playstation brand. there's the benefits of graphics, physics and stereoscopic 3D eventually which could show a difference that might have broader appeal.

I'm sorry I wasn't clear but I was talking about the mistakes of third parties when it came to motion controls, outside of pointing and sword fighting.

I'm not bothering to discuss hypothetical next gen strategies and if they'd work or not.

[temesgen]

I think it's more than that. The living room social gaming angle is indeed powerful. Nintendo was (still is) also smart in choosing and implement the right games for Wii's audience. WiiSports and WiiFit make day-to-day activities into a cute, relaxing and fun "vacation". The flagship titles are all rather relevant to an average person's life. No zombies, marines, mafia, aliens or intense competition is needed.

Kotaku released the most avidly played Wii games in America as of 4/1/10 and the top 3 are:

Super Smash Brothers Brawl
Animal Crossing
Guitar Hero 3


Wii Fit and Wii Sports are not even in the top 10.

If you look at Sony's collection (The Shoot, Slider, Champions Online), they are mostly the same old gamer stuff. EyePet stood out because it's more like a Nintendo title in theme, but I don't know if it has the depth. A mistake is to think that casuals don't need depth. e.g., Afrika is a wonderful title, but it is rather shallow. Within a few minutes, my wife handed me the controller back and said the game is rather limited. I think Nintendo titles like WiiSport are very well made, and are able to hold consumers' attention despite Wiimote's technical limitations.

The appeal of Wii Sports is not due to a deep level of game play - it appeals because it draws in the group. I would compare it to UNO; as a family we all play this at gatherings not because it is deep but because it is fun in a family gathering among different ages.

I had lunch with a Wii gamer friend yesterday. He mentioned that he enjoys the sports games on Wii very much. But he hasn't heard of Wiimote plus. ^_^

I brought up Wii mote plus in an earlier reply and anecdotally your friends experience suports my position that peripherals that fracture the installed base are a bad idea and generally dont do well.

WiiSports alone was able to keep his family entertained and satisfied. So they won't go look for something better. However if someone show them Wiimote plus, PS Move or Natal, I'm sure they will be able to discern the differences. The challenge lies in how the vendors communicate and inspire the consumers. They need to be able to tell the differences before playing the game, even if it is a gimmicky move.

I highly doubt that the depth of gameplay is what keeps his family entertained with Wii Sports, it is more likely that they enjoy gaming together in the similar way that people still were accessing Halo or Halo 2 on Live. The social component to that interaction is what makes it fun as much as anything else once you master the game play mechanics.

[Trejser]

The iphone and ipod are clearly pioneers.:wink:

Eye Toy is from 2003 :)

[Graham]

I highly doubt that the depth of gameplay is what keeps his family entertained with Wii Sports, it is more likely that they enjoy gaming together in the similar way that people still were accessing Halo or Halo 2 on Live. The social component to that interaction is what makes it fun as much as anything else once you master the game play mechanics.

To a significant extent, it's the accessibility of the interface that makes the Wii such a dominant social gaming platform - and allows simple, social minded games to be a huge success.

One of the best gaming moments I've ever had was taking turns playing Flatout: Ultimate Carnage with my (at the time) flatmate and his parents. It was an absolute blast, but without question the controls (as simple as they are) were a massive barrier. It took at least 45 minutes before they were able to keep the car driving in a straight line at low speed.

[goonergaz]

Personally I think the reason Wii is popular is because it's the right price and easy (as well as fun) to play - parent/grandparents and kids can all play together and the barriers that previously were in place (controllers/gaming being for youngsters) are largely gone and replace with 'lifelike' gestures and minimal button presses.

IMHO the reason Ninty games sell well is partly because there's a real lack of quality in opposition, and partly because of their customers. It's why a simple HD version of Wii would not (IMHO) sell well. They have something they are happy with, so why replace/upgrade it?

Going back to the PS3 software - there's no reason why Sony cannot release "party games" to fill the hole that the Wii fills (Modnation Racers = Mario Kart, LBP = Mario and it can't be too hard to replicate the sports titles). Sure they might not be as good - but Sony offer other experiences that the Wii cannot, so all-in-all the PS3 is 'jack of all' and offers a great all-round solution.

[Shifty Geezer]

...there's no reason why Sony cannot release "party games" to fill the hole that the Wii fills (Modnation Racers = Mario Kart, LBP = Mario and it can't be too hard to replicate the sports titles). Sure they might not be as good...The are far from the comparable experience. LBP's platforming is harder and frustrating. Modnation Racers has attitude and a lack of polish (at least the Beta) that sees it failing to capture the fun of the original MK. There are posters here who say the Wii MK has been dumbed down to elliminate true competition for the sake of the casual gamers, though I haven't played it to have my own opinion.

Nintendo's software for Wii has been simplistic, allowing a numpty with zero hand control to wave their arm around and manage to skill-lessly win a tennis match or fight. I don't think any other developer would be willing to go that simple and so appeal to the non gamers.

[goonergaz]

The way Microsoft is treating Natal and Sony treating Move couldn't possibly be worlds further apart.

Could it be because one console has a lot more of a 'hardcore whoop-a gamer' type than the other along with less 'casual gamer' titles so they feel they need to push harder than the other?

Just a thought.

[goonergaz]

The are far from the comparable experience. LBP's platforming is harder and frustrating. Modnation Racers has attitude and a lack of polish (at least the Beta) that sees it failing to capture the fun of the original MK. There are posters here who say the Wii MK has been dumbed down to elliminate true competition for the sake of the casual gamers, though I haven't played it to have my own opinion.

Nintendo's software for Wii has been simplistic, allowing a numpty with zero hand control to wave their arm around and manage to skill-lessly win a tennis match or fight. I don't think any other developer would be willing to go that simple and so appeal to the non gamers.


TBH that's pretty much what I was trying to say! lol

Like I said, Sony can produce a title which fills a gap, it might not be as good - but it's still worthy of play-time, and with LBP & MNR having user created content they also add something that both Ninty titles lack.

[Shifty Geezer]

Like I said, Sony can produce a title which fills a gap...But it won't be filling the gap if the audience who picked up the Wiimote and enjoyed racing cows cannot pick up the Move and enjoy the experience because it requires skill from them! So much depends on what's created and how the public ultimately responds.

[goonergaz]

But it won't be filling the gap if the audience who picked up the Wiimote and enjoyed racing cows cannot pick up the Move and enjoy the experience because it requires skill from them! So much depends on what's created and how the public ultimately responds.

Surely it depends how tweakable the Move settings are?

[Graham]

I think Shifty's point was that PS3 games are probably more likely to demand a higher level of skill to play. Be it player coordination, or simply being familiar with how games work.


Like I said, Sony can produce a title which fills a gap, it might not be as good - but it's still worthy of play-time


You actually bring up a very thorny issue. To beat Nintendo - or any company - at their own game you can't simply match them, you have to significantly outdo them or provide something distinctly different. No question Sony have outdone Nintendo hardware, but that is really only one part: Without a key differentiator, your software needs to ace Nintendo's as well.

Better graphics don't really factor in - they are great for increasing immersion, but don't necessarily make a socially targeted experience better (in some ways, more realistic graphics can detract from it).

I can't help feel that many of the games Sony have shown (with the biggest exception being EyePet) are simply competing with existing Wii titles. If you are trying to pull a customer away from a competitor, offering the same experiences isn't exactly a winning strategy in my book.

There was a post on NeoGaf (I can't seem to find it) directly comparing the Sony titles (boxing, archery, sword fighting, etc) to their Wii counterpart. The reaction in the thread was very much 'Night and Day!', but I couldn't help think how sterile and serious (boxing) they looked.
The Wii titles may be low-fi, but they have a real sense of character. Their colours are bright, and the simplicity simply means everything is easily recognizable. To put it simply, they looked more fun.

What I'd have much rather seen were only new and novel uses exploiting Move's technical capability applied to making fun, original games (preferably silly little games that don't take themselves seriously).

...

I know I'm ragging on Sony a lot, however I just don't feel inspired at all by Move. If Microsoft pull the same clichéd games out at E3 then I'll be doubly disappointed. While ultimately this is about money, the means to getting there shouldn't be overlooked: combining fun, originality and doing things that are new and exciting. Inspiring people, helping them discover gaming and simply making people happy.

As time passes, I find more often I'm looking at games, tech and hardware from a cold cynical perspective. Trying to imagine the process that brought that product to production and the thinking behind it.
More and more, I see 10s of millions of dollars and 100s of man years effort being spent on projects which (frankly) seem to suggest a fundamental lack of direction or goal (I'm not speaking of Move specifically, more of the game industry in general)

[Danalys]

A lot of the reason some people are excited for Move that weren't for Wii motion games is that Sony makes games that are challenging and require precision. I don't think it would be a good idea to lose that base in an attempt to broaden the market that may not succeed. So I would hope they will still appeal to their current customers enough.

There is the whole thing in Blue ocean strategy of bringing consumers upstream to more challenging games, as many of us moved from one button games to 2 button to six and so on, from single screens to multi screens to scrolling worlds to 3D, Move might be too much too soon but then we could still be surprised by games pitched at different demographics.

I'm curious about Ape escape and what audience that will be targeted at.

[Graham]

That's totally true. I've said a few times that I believe Move will primarily sell to existing PS3 owners.
The open question is how well, and that will mainly be determined by how 3rd parties support it in hardcore games.

As I tried to say in my last post, the views I express generally aren't my own personal desires toward products. I want to see gaming expand and bring in a much bigger audience (not just stealing the Wii audience). Move has a lot of potential to do that, but I just don't see Sony going down that path - and that really disappointed me. I admit I can get a bit wound up over these things sometimes :mrgreen:

[ShadowRunner]

There are a ton of gamers, casual or not, still out there that do not own a 360 or PS3 yet, we shouldnt forget them. While going for the non-gamer crowd could certainly bring in huge amounts of new people these people are also a lot harder to get into gaming. If natal only really apeals to the non-gamer (not saying it will, we dont know yet) if the addition of Move to PS3s vocabulary is of more appeal to gamers rather than non-gamers than Natals addition to 360 then it could concieveably tip the advantage in PS3s favour for those gamers, PS3/360 have been pretty much equal up until now. 360/PS3 sold around 800,000 units last month to gamers, if Move can tip this balance in PS3s favour for gamers then there are significant gains to be made. Im not saying this will happen im just saying that if one of the HD twins can break the status quo that exist currently for the gamer demographic then the repurcussions could lead to a big success in the gamer market, which would not be negated whether the competition is hugely successful in the non-gamer market or not. In theory Ps3 could sell 140mil units to gamers without sharing the majority of those gamers with 360, while the 360 sells 200mil to non-gamers. Both consolse could see huge success if they are not sharing the same demographic. Not that that going to happen but still :wink:

I dont think it would actualy take that much to shift favouratism of the remaining gamers out there towards one of the consoles so going after the gamers out there rather than non-gamers could be lucrative regardless of the copmetitions sucess/failure in grabbing non-gamers, and also a lot easier. Anyone agree?

Again im not saying Move is a product that will tip the balance and give PS3 an edge in goin after gamers, im just saying there are millions of gamers out there still to be fought for and they shouldnt be forgotten considering they are the much easier target.

Its easy to look at the situation with blinkers on and only see a vs. situation, this doesnt have to be the case and outside of the usual console war undertones both peripherals have a chance of success without cannibalising eachother, whether that success is minor or major for both or one or the other.

If this theory is accepted then whether or not Move/Natal apeal to gamers should be discussed which has been pretty much absent so far, pretty much all of the discussion has been on wether my mum will buy a console or not

Am i talking nonsense here or can anyone see where im coming from? Ive had a few beers, thats my defence :lol:

[patsu]

The iphone and ipod are clearly pioneers.:wink:

Eye Toy is from 2003 :)

Yeah, I think EyeToy is the first camera-based natural interface consumer product. iPhone introduced multi-touch interface and captured the phone market. iPod is a totally different animal altogether.

[patsu]

I highly doubt that the depth of gameplay is what keeps his family entertained with Wii Sports, it is more likely that they enjoy gaming together in the similar way that people still were accessing Halo or Halo 2 on Live. The social component to that interaction is what makes it fun as much as anything else once you master the game play mechanics.

You're right. Depth is probably the wrong word. Polished and self-contained are better descriptions of what I had in my mind.

As for social/family gaming, I agree it's the main draw but many casual games have this trait. I was saying it is not the only success factor for Wii. e.g., I am not sure WiiFit is sold based on social gaming.

As for the stats for most played Wii games, I think the difference is between sales and most played. I see those 3 games (Super Smash Brothers Brawl, Animal Crossing, Guitar Hero 3) and others on the list (e.g., Modern Warfare) as gamers' games. Gamers will play them more. WiiFit and WiiSports bring in a load of other people to the scene, which is Nintendo's ace this gen. I think on the DS side, I would say something like Brain Training would attract new consumers to gaming too.

[temesgen]

You're right. Depth is probably the wrong word. Polished and self-contained are better descriptions of what I had in my mind.

As for social/family gaming, I agree it's the main draw but many casual games have this trait. I was saying it is not the only success factor for Wii. e.g., I am not sure WiiFit is sold based on social gaming.


Wii Fit is an interesting peripheral - I tend to think that a decent number of sales happened because the boyfriend or the family bought a Wii and Mom/girlfriend liked the social interaction of the game play and took a chance on a piece of exercise equipment they could use at home. I would really like to see some numbers on how many of these are being used today bc while I think Nintendo mitigated their risk by taping into the exercise sales market - there really isn't a social angle to the experience which IMO keeps people using other titles like Wii Sports like the friend you mentioned earlier hence my question about how many people are still using their Wii Fit boards. Regardless Nintendo into a fairly predictable emotional sale and it paid off.


As for the stats for most played Wii games, I think the difference is between sales and most played. I see those 3 games (Super Smash Brothers Brawl, Animal Crossing, Guitar Hero 3) and others on the list (e.g., Modern Warfare) as gamers' games. Gamers will play them more. WiiFit and WiiSports bring in a load of other people to the scene, which is Nintendo's ace this gen. I think on the DS side, I would say something like Brain Training would attract new consumers to gaming too.

We agree here the key issue however which needs to be considered is that Nintendo sells everything at a profit while Sony arguably still is losing money on PS3 sales so if a 'nongamer' buys a PS3 and one game Sony actually accelerates their losses. It may very well be counter productive for Sony to attempt to grow their base unless they can get people to use their PS3s to start buying more software and also do other things: rent movies, pay for music, buy Blu Ray disc. Imagine what losses Nintendo would have experienced if they were selling the DS at a loss and all these 'casuals' bought units and only Brain Age to go with it...

The other factor in Nintendo first party sales which has to be evaluated is the contribution that well established first party mascots contribute to these sales. Mario is a lot like Mickey in that sense - games which feature Mario, Zelda, Donkey Kong all generally have extremely high production values and in many cases parents are eager to sit down and play too as they grew up playing and be familiar with core play mechanics in the case of Super Mario Brothers Wii. Including built in cheats is a brilliant idea because now nongamers who are struggling with a particular area can still enjoy the game.

[patsu]

No doubt Nintendo has its strength in consumer marketing. But Sony has a few consumer divisions too.

Sony and MS are certainly hampered by the high cost. However they will gain manufacturing efficiency. Now that they are close to make $$$ for their consoles, they can or will try to go after the casuals.

After the PS Move reveal, I still don't see Sony targeting the casuals. Perhaps this is intentional, they seem to be going after the core gamers by and large.

At the end of the day, if they want to excel in digital consumer space, they will have to package their software/services properly. We have not seen any of that yet (in PS Move). Most of what we saw are just tech demoes. In fact, MS is more eager to get their consumer message and concept out there ahead of Sony. Sony seems to be grappling with low level features.


Wii Fit is an interesting peripheral - I tend to think that a decent number of sales happened because the boyfriend or the family bought a Wii and Mom/girlfriend liked the social interaction of the game play and took a chance on a piece of exercise equipment they could use at home. I would really like to see some numbers on how many of these are being used today bc while I think Nintendo mitigated their risk by taping into the exercise sales market - there really isn't a social angle to the experience which IMO keeps people using other titles like Wii Sports like the friend you mentioned earlier hence my question about how many people are still using their Wii Fit boards. Regardless Nintendo into a fairly predictable emotional sale and it paid off.


People who are interested in wellness may like WiiFit too (e.g., seniors). Social gaming is not the only draw.

[temesgen]

You're right. Depth is probably the wrong word. Polished and self-contained are better descriptions of what I had in my mind.

As for social/family gaming, I agree it's the main draw but many casual games have this trait. I was saying it is not the only success factor for Wii. e.g., I am not sure WiiFit is sold based on social gaming.

As for the stats for most played Wii games, I think the difference is between sales and most played. I see those 3 games (Super Smash Brothers Brawl, Animal Crossing, Guitar Hero 3) and others on the list (e.g., Modern Warfare) as gamers' games. Gamers will play them more. WiiFit and WiiSports bring in a load of other people to the scene, which is Nintendo's ace this gen. I think on the DS side, I would say something like Brain Training would attract new consumers to gaming too.

No doubt Nintendo has its strength in consumer marketing. But Sony has a few consumer divisions too.

Sony and MS are certainly hampered by the high cost. However they will gain manufacturing efficiency. Now that they are close to make $$$ for their consoles, they can or will try to go after the casuals.

After the PS Move reveal, I still don't see Sony targeting the casuals. Perhaps this is intentional, they seem to be going after the core gamers by and large.

At the end of the day, if they want to excel in digital consumer space, they will have to package their software/services properly. We have not seen any of that yet (in PS Move). Most of what we saw are just tech demoes. In fact, MS is more eager to get their consumer message out there ahead of Sony.



People who are interested in wellness may like WiiFit too (e.g., seniors). Social gaming is not the only draw.

Execution and message have been the issue for Sony this generation though - how did Sony let MS get movies on 360 earlier than PS3, how did they let MS take away so many exclusives, why did it take them so long to figure out what people want in PSN and why did it take nearly 3 years to start properly leveraging their extensive catalog of existing titles on PSN?

Sony is a company with serious execution issues. IMO if MS learns how to get their core audience to migrate their Halo/MW clans to online Natal based volleyball, baseball and card games they will win the war for 2nd place by a steep margin if not actually make a real run for Nintendo's first place spot. Sony has more work to do and with their executions issues this is going to be a very interesting period to watch. I don't buy into the idea that Nintendo has the ability to things that nobody else can do with software as some seem to be arguing and honestly Sony will take advantage of the easy ports which will certainly come from EA and others but I do agree it is an uphill battle for Sony in particular on balance. Personally I really hope Sony gets their act together as IMO their software is the most diverse and takes more chances than MS does - as an enthusiast I appreciate what they doing. However if I were picking a company to invest in I would have to pass on Sony for the time being.

[patsu]

Execution and message have been the issue for Sony this generation though - how did Sony let MS get movies on 360 earlier than PS3, how did they let MS take away so many exclusives, why did it take them so long to figure out what people want in PSN and why did it take nearly 3 years to start properly leveraging their extensive catalog of existing titles on PSN?


I think MS has more $$$ to buy exclusives. Sony chose to invest in its own studios. No point fighting MS with cash. You will lose.

As for leveraging on existing catalog, they probably want people to buy their new games. But I do agree they take too long to do their network, plus they didn't hype up its capability (e.g., Demon's Souls use the PSN user data services to create its unique online experiences, but Sony didn't create a consumer concept around it. It's probably yet another tiny feature from their point of view).

Now, PSN has become a Sony group-wide effort. On one hand, they can enjoy better economy of scale. OTOH, if they are not careful, it is also possible that thing will now take a decade to happen. :-P I say this because Howard Stringer himself lamented that he couldn't move their network effort fast enough.

[temesgen]

I think MS has more $$$ to buy exclusives. Sony chose to invest in its own studios. No point fighting MS with cash. You will lose.

As for leveraging on existing catalog, they probably want people to buy their new games. But I do agree they take too long to do their network, plus they didn't hype up its capability (e.g., Demon's Souls use the PSN user data services to create its unique online experiences, but Sony didn't create a consumer concept around it. It's probably yet another tiny feature from their point of view).

Now, PSN has become a Sony group-wide effort. On one hand, they can enjoy better economy of scale. OTOH, if they are not careful, it is also possible that thing will now take a decade to happen. :-P I say this because Howard Stringer himself lamented that he couldn't move their network effort fast enough.

The travesty with PSN is that with all the copying that Sony gets accused off if they had simply copied the matchmaking and friends system from Live rather than go off on the whole Home adventure they could be so much further along at this point. I am not convinced Sony gets it to this day and the fact that PSN now has a company wide initiative potentially compromises things even more. Corporations generally don't improve execution when initiative spread company wide like that - politics, individual agendas, inertia and a lack of accountability tend to creep into the project in the same way that universal health care becomes a conduit for bridges building in some town we have never heard off, budget overruns and fraud. All Sony had to do was bring in a group of gamers who use Live, identify the strengths of Live over PSN, then validate the results with their marketing team and then assign resources to make it happen. Again execution and focus issues...:oops:

[patsu]

The travesty with PSN is that with all the copying that Sony gets accused off if they had simply copied the matchmaking and friends system from Live rather than go off on the whole Home adventure they could be so much further along at this point. I am not convinced Sony gets it to this day and the fact that PSN now has a company wide initiative potentially compromises things even more. Corporations generally don't improve execution when initiative spread company wide like that - politics, individual agendas, inertia and a lack of accountability tend to creep into the project in the same way that universal health care becomes a conduit for bridges building in some town we have never heard off, budget overruns and fraud. All Sony had to do was bring in a group of gamers who use Live, identify the strengths of Live over PSN, then validate the results with their marketing team and then assign resources to make it happen. Again execution and focus issues...:oops:

Bah... it's the party system that I want. They should evolve their chat room concept into one. It's a very unique, *useful* and cool persistent party framework. Instead of copying MS, they should vertically integrate the chatroom into games and PS Home.

I actually like PS Home. Unfortunately, Sony zoom in on the wrong thing (3D space), messed up the avatars (No personality) and the user interface. They have come a long way with the release of the 2D Worldmap and Sodium ! Still not enough yet. PS Home can be a compelling online experience. It should be 2D by default, and 3D when the people want to fool around.

They don't have to worry about losing a captured audience. A lot of people go to Home for a few minutes, just because they are bored.

[temesgen]

Bah... it's the party system that I want. They should evolve their chat room concept into one. It's a very unique, *useful* and cool persistent party framework. Instead of copying MS, they should vertically integrate the chatroom into games and PS Home.

I actually like PS Home. Unfortunately, Sony zoom in on the wrong thing (3D space), messed up the avatars (No personality) and the user interface. They have come a long way with the release of the 2D Worldmap and Sodium ! Still not enough yet. PS Home can be a compelling online experience. It should be 2D by default, and 3D when the people want to fool around.

They don't have to worry about losing a captured audience. A lot of people go to Home for a few minutes, just because they are bored.

We agree here too - I should have been more clear what I intended to say was that is how PSN should have been rolled out. At this point Sony needs to address the deficiencies and figure out how to draw people into their space. I would love to Sony or Microsoft do a Natal/Move inspired Family Feud with real prizes like a trip to Disney land or in the case of Sony part of their award winning Movie collection in Blu Ray or downloads from Sony Music. It doesn't have to cost a lot but it could certainly drive people into the space in a way that captures the local social interaction and merges it with the networked community that Microsoft has perfected.

[patsu]

Yes, I'd like to see them try that too.

The Home community team already organize regular (weekly ?) contests with prizes. e.g.,
http://www.alphazone4.com/2010/04/reminder-spread-the-scorpions-eu-and-na-tonight-win-a-prize
... and even events where people clan up and go gaming together via the XML game launching system.

Unfortunately, it only appeals to Home folks (due to the tedious UI and negative perception). It's done on a very small scale effort, and not designed to draw in the crowd (e.g., Should give out hotter prizes). I believe the event schedule is in the Central Plaza (not available outside >_<).

OTOH, the Playstation Blog have another community effort going via the web. If they want to do a Playstation community, they should just pool resources together and do one. Don't let the 3D-ness stop Home and Blog co-operation/integration.

[joker454]

I think MS has more $$$ to buy exclusives. Sony chose to invest in its own studios. No point fighting MS with cash. You will lose.

Investing in studios is actually far more expensive (and far riskier) than buying exclusives, so Sony in effect did try to fight MS with cash and paid a heavy price for it.


Now, PSN has become a Sony group-wide effort. On one hand, they can enjoy better economy of scale. OTOH, if they are not careful, it is also possible that thing will now take a decade to happen.

They need to hurry up because they are running out of time. Apple is on the move, their latest being copying XBLive with their Game Center idea which is a brilliant move. Game Center should be a clear sign to MS and Sony that Apple, while pigheaded in many ways, is a very definite future threat.

[patsu]

Investing in studios is actually far more expensive (and far riskier) than buying exclusives, so Sony in effect did try to fight MS with cash and paid a heavy price for it.


Ah, but you have more control. Third party can always be swayed with more money, and Sony needs the PS3 competency anyway. The first parties will define the PS3 experiences and go where no other studios want to go. e.g., For Natal, MS has to create its own studios to champion the new experiences. Competition between MS and Sony will also drive up the cost for buying exclusives (more than what you see now).


They need to hurry up because they are running out of time. Apple is on the move, their latest being copying XBLive with their Game Center idea which is a brilliant move. Game Center should be a clear sign to MS and Sony that Apple, while pigheaded in many ways, is a very definite future threat.

Apple hired an Xbox Live executive from Europe months ago. :)

I am very happy with their Game Center announcement. It means Nintendo and Sony will have to accelerate their plans. :)

[goonergaz]

After the PS Move reveal, I still don't see Sony targeting the casuals. Perhaps this is intentional, they seem to be going after the core gamers by and large.

A very good point. It's like Sony listened to what people didn't like about the Wiimote (or certainly what I didn't like) and fixed it.

[patsu]

Well, fixing these technical issues is fine, but it will take more to attract consumer dollars.

[ShadowRunner]

Investing in studios is actually far more expensive (and far riskier) than buying exclusives, so Sony in effect did try to fight MS with cash and paid a heavy price for it.


On the flipside without first party studios Sony would likely be in a much worse situation than they are now. In a world where Sony has no decent first party support MS would know they could effectively wipe Sony out of the game buy buying exclusives from under them. At the moment MS hasnt done this to such a great extent because the huge investment it would take would not guarantee Sonys failure like it would if they had no 1st party support.

[patsu]

Engadget says the Move subcontroller will be called "Navigation Controller":
http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/12/playstation-move-sub-controller-hits-fcc-will-be-named-navigati/


Sony part number CECH-ZCS1U just hit the FCC's database, and "Navigation Controller" is written in nice bold letters right there on the label. It's looking like this is official, as the Sony US website has been quietly updated with the change

[Crossbar]

On the flipside without first party studios Sony would likely be in a much worse situation than they are now.
Good point!

In a wider perspective, what would Nintendo be without their studios?

[eloyc]

Engadget says the Move subcontroller will be called "Navigation Controller":
http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/12/playstation-move-sub-controller-hits-fcc-will-be-named-navigati/
Too many syllables... :???:

[goonergaz]

why not call it navcon?

[eloyc]

why not call it navcon?

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?!?! I absolutely thought of that but I didn't say it in my previous post. :shock:

[obonicus]

Maybe it's a cue for Namco to start re-releasing their *con controllers.

[Graham]

Engadget says the Move subcontroller will be called "Navigation Controller":
http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/12/playstation-move-sub-controller-hits-fcc-will-be-named-navigati/

That is a much better name, it's more descriptive of the controller's function.
Although it is rather boring :mrgreen:

[patsu]

It sounds geeky, and more suitable for the core gaming crowd. :)
Yeah, the gamers will probably call it the NavCon. The non-gamers may just call it the "smaller controller". :)
I am more convinced that the new controllers are aimed squarely at the gamers. Sony is not interested in casual gaming for this round. At least not yet.

Since the DS3 can be used for the same function, the navigation controller may just refer to the generic function your secondary controller does.

In any case, I think it's still not a good name (What the hell is the Move controller w.r.t. a Navigation Controller ? Why not just call it a Navigator ? It's like calling it a banana fruit when banana suffices). Wiimote and Nunchuck are much better names.

EDIT: Checked the SCEA website:
http://us.playstation.com/ps3/accessories/scph-98061.html


The wireless and untethered PlayStation®Move navigation controller is a must-have for core gamers. This supplementary controller adds directional buttons, an analog stick, and two shoulder buttons into the PlayStation®Move's control scheme.


Ok, the NavCon is positioned as a tool for core gamers only. It seems that Sony's strategy is to make casual games with only one or two PS Move eh... main controllers.

EDIT 2: The main controller is called PlayStation®Move motion controller.

[goonergaz]

Please can anyone that uses the term NavCon® please send £1GBP to my paypal account! :P

[patsu]

I'll send you Patsu Points.

[Shifty Geezer]

Wiimote and Nunchuck are much better names.Are either of those official Nintendo names?

[patsu]

The official names are here:
http://www.nintendo.com/wii/what/controllers

Nunchuk is the official name.

Wiimote is not. The official one is called: Wii Remote Controller (like TV Remote).

[Shifty Geezer]

Nunchuck is an odd name, even if quite good, as it's not really nunchucky as I understand a nunchuck to be. Sounds very like an internal development nickname adaopted because they couldn't think of anything better. :D

[Arwin]

Nunchuck is an odd name, even if quite good, as it's not really nunchucky as I understand a nunchuck to be. Sounds very like an internal development nickname adaopted because they couldn't think of anything better. :D

It's because it connects to the Wii-mote by wire ... :!:

http://www.ketelkaotic.com/mp/images/nunchuck.jpg

http://www.wirelessnunchucks.co.uk/wired_nunchuk.jpg

[patsu]

It's easy to pronounce and remember ! Wii doesn't really mean anything either. And yes to the wired connection to Wiimote.

[Shifty Geezer]

Yes, I understand why it's called the nunchuck, but 'nunchuck' refers to a weapon of two identical pieces with a chain between, whereas the nunchuck controller is a separate device that just happens to be connected by wire. It's not wielded like a nunchuck, nor looks like a nunchuck, so it's a rather silly name. In stark contrast, the Wii controller is called the 'Wii Remote Controller' adding the 'Remote' because that what the controller is most similar with. If that's the 'Wii Remote Controller', why isn't the Nunhuck the 'Wii Ancilliary Controller' or 'Wii Extended Controller' or 'Wii Controller Extender' or something equally prosaic? That's a completel absence of consistency in Wii's peripheral naming. Looks like Sony are emulating this in reverse, with the main controller having a proper name, and the add-on having the prosaic descriptor!

[patsu]

Ha ha, that's why I suspected the Navigation Controller is for the core gamers. Most of the time, casuals and non-gamers don't really care about the "technical" definitions (especially if the definition is rather abstract).

As long as the name is catchy, distinct, tangible, easy to say/remember and the usage is simple/intuitive, it's a go !


I like the idea that the navigation controller is for the core gamers only/mostly. I agree that Sony should focus on the PS Move motion controller for casuals.

I find the nunchuk concept a bit like the appendix, a legacy left behind by the traditional control scheme. Sony should research on ways to make 1 or 2 motion controllers perform all functions (for casuals, since it's a clean slate).

[temesgen]

On the flipside without first party studios Sony would likely be in a much worse situation than they are now. In a world where Sony has no decent first party support MS would know they could effectively wipe Sony out of the game buy buying exclusives from under them. At the moment MS hasnt done this to such a great extent because the huge investment it would take would not guarantee Sonys failure like it would if they had no 1st party support.


Excellent point - also isn't 1st party development is largely driving Wii software profits for Nintendo. Think of it this way would MS or Sony rather have MW as an internal studio or 3rd party?

Technology depreciates so rapidly that a blue ocean strategy makes much more sense.

To that end Nintendo has a wealth of mascots and franchises they own and can continue to leverage something both MS and Sony need to work at. Eye Pet shows potential and Halo is a great established IP but we don't know how well Halo will appeal in 3 years much less 5 to 10 - even Pac Man and Pole Position had a TV shows at one point (not comparing Halo to Pac Man here BTW simply point out that in its heyday Pac Mac was a very important franchise and today not so much)...

[eloyc]

Nice video, from "The Seattle PlayStation Move Meetup", April 8 2010:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn5l50bFgw0

:-)

EDIT: It looks great! I only noticed a slight lag, but less than I thought.

What do you think of it?

[ShadowRunner]

Engadget says the Move subcontroller will be called "Navigation Controller":
http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/12/playstation-move-sub-controller-hits-fcc-will-be-named-navigati/

Still not really total confirmation. Look at the same sticker on the back of the your DS3 or SIXAXIS, according to that they are both called 'WIRELESS CONTROLLER'. Its more just a descriptor and the marketing name could still be something else. It looks like for the actual wand itself the label will call it 'MOTION CONTROLLER'.

[patsu]

The Navigation Controller name is used on SCEA website already. ^_^

eloyc's video is quite fun:
Pn5l50bFgw0

I like the Move party best. Did the game ask the girl to paint the rubber chicken ? :D

EDIT: On a related note, a friend and I ordered OCZ Nia (the brainwave-driven controller) yesterday.

We are going to program it and see what kind of trouble we can get ourselves into. We joked that it'd be awesome if we could tap our brain into the 3G network "directly". :-P

[eloyc]

I like the Move party best.
I agree.

Did the game ask the girl to paint the rubber chicken ? :D
I don't know, but the girl sucked at anything that the game was... ¿¬_¬

EDIT: I meant, that specific part with the chicken. She's not bad at the rest.

[ShadowRunner]

The Navigation Controller name is used on SCEA website already. ^_^


Yep but the site calls the wand Playstation Move motion controller and the nunchuck Playstation Move navigation controller, so if we go by the site and apply the same logic the names are Motion Controller and Navigation Controller, rather than the wand being called Move as is used currently.

Abbreviations so far: MMC and MNC

Simply Move Motion and Move Navigator would be better. In some ways Move would have been the best name for MNC itself, Move Mover maybe? :grin:

[obonicus]

Isn't that the music from one of the Silent Hills?

[bkilian]

This is why I find microsoft most interesting to watch. Of all three companies, they seem to have had the most consistent long term plan (with nintendo a close second).I always figured Nintendo's long term plan was to fill a silo with cash and swim in it. :)

[patsu]

...

I agree the subtle name difference between the Navigation Controller and the Motion Controller and PS Move can be confusing. :-P

A Silent Hill game with PS Move would be good.

[Brad Grenz]

I always figured Nintendo's long term plan was to fill a silo with cash and swim in it. :)

The classic Scrooge McDuck maneuver. They must be getting close!

[Shifty Geezer]

eloyc's video is quite fun:
Pn5l50bFgw0I like the style and polish surrounding the titles, but the input lag on the final boxing clip is unplayable. There's a half-second delay between the girl swinging a right hook and the avatar following her intentions. :shock:

[eloyc]

I like the style and polish surrounding the titles, but the input lag on the final boxing clip is unplayable. There's a half-second delay between the girl swinging a right hook and the avatar following her intentions. :shock:

Yep. When I previously said that the lag was less than I thought, I was referring to the Move Party mini-games, but the boxing game is obviously worse in that sense.

However, I wouldn't call it "unplayable", yet, before trying it out, but I don't have a problem if you call it like that. I mean that each gamer is free to decide the amount of lag he/she is able to "bear" in a game and if that lag truly affects the fun. :cool:

[ShadowRunner]

I like the style and polish surrounding the titles, but the input lag on the final boxing clip is unplayable. There's a half-second delay between the girl swinging a right hook and the avatar following her intentions. :shock:

Yea its a problem im not sure they will be able to get around using gesture controls, the gesture has to finish before the animation for a certain type of punch starts. With simple gestures like moving the wand forward to punch, as in wii sports boxing, the animation can start instantly as soon as the accelerometers detect forward movemont beyond a certain force. For more complex ranges of punches its harder because you may be relying on the final position of the glowing orb or a change in force/direction mid punch to destinguish a cetain type of punch over another, this means the full movement has to complete before the game knows what type of punch you were attempting to throw. They will need to look at simplifying the gestures needed to determin a punch and maybe sacrifice the number of different punches to ones that can be determined near the start of movement, essentially leaving you with hook and jab most likely.

The ideal would be not to use gestures and have 1:1 tracking for the arms, but this has plenty of its own issues that need working out.

[Shifty Geezer]

However, I wouldn't call it "unplayable"...I would. :p At least if playable requires a degree of skill in choosing what actions one wants in breaking through their defense, as opposed to just wiggling around hoping it results in a victory. The nature of the game looks like you're supposed to time attacks. Yet if you see an opening and want to take a swipe, by the time the game has registered your intentions, the opponent could have their defense up again.

To be fair, I suppose the fighting could be extremely slow to accomodate this, and any changes in the opponent is made with enough time for the player to react and their actions allowed to complete. Definitely not one I'd care to play though.

[eloyc]

I would. :p At least if playable requires a degree of skill in choosing what actions one wants in breaking through their defense, as opposed to just wiggling around hoping it results in a victory. The nature of the game looks like you're supposed to time attacks. Yet if you see an opening and want to take a swipe, by the time the game has registered your intentions, the opponent could have their defense up again.

To be fair, I suppose the fighting could be extremely slow to accomodate this, and any changes in the opponent is made with enough time for the player to react and their actions allowed to complete. Definitely not one I'd care to play though.

I agree, but still... I should play it before. :razz:

Boxing games are not my cup of tea, though, but that is another matter.

[MfA]

The ideal would be not to use gestures and have 1:1 tracking for the arms, but this has plenty of its own issues that need working out.
1:1 is never going to work for the casuals. Even with realtime control you are going to have to tweak the animation to follow the "appropriate" path, so you actually hit him.

[patsu]

I would. :p At least if playable requires a degree of skill in choosing what actions one wants in breaking through their defense, as opposed to just wiggling around hoping it results in a victory. The nature of the game looks like you're supposed to time attacks. Yet if you see an opening and want to take a swipe, by the time the game has registered your intentions, the opponent could have their defense up again.

To be fair, I suppose the fighting could be extremely slow to accomodate this, and any changes in the opponent is made with enough time for the player to react and their actions allowed to complete. Definitely not one I'd care to play though.

I played a similar boxing game in the arcade years ago. It's tracked by two gloves and some poles. In that game, the lag was more noticeable but the game was tuned for it. You have ample time to defend yourself and jab the opponents. The tougher opponents were faster, more powerful but the player could move around the screen and time the attack.

If the game is designed for the appropriate response time, it should be playable. I got a good workout out of it.

The thing about Move is if Wii has done it before and people liked the experience, it should be possible to match that experience. The bad thing is *if* this is all Sony does, then people will simply stick to Wii.

EDIT:
1:1 is never going to work for the casuals. Even with realtime control you are going to have to tweak the animation to follow the "appropriate" path, so you actually hit him.

What if you don't tweak the animation or only tweak it based on the last position ?

[ShadowRunner]

1:1 is never going to work for the casuals. Even with realtime control you are going to have to tweak the animation to follow the "appropriate" path, so you actually hit him.

If you use something like we have seen from the puppetry demo, but with a more advanced model, it could work for the actual throwing of the punch, the problem here would the point of collision if you punch passed it. It could work if the game penalises you for not pulling the punch back at the correct point so it becomes sort of like shadow boxing, also the colission animation could help here by moving with the punch so the full motion you are making can still be captured to a point unless punching through an object by a considerable ammount. Boxing something like a punchbag that doesnt hit back could work well.

The big issue that is hard to solve is hit-stun, how do you stop a person from punching back while they are being hit themselves. May just be a matter of game mechanics so simply encouraging blocking by making counter attacks much more powerful than random swinging could partly negate this issue.

[patsu]

http://www.edge-online.com/news/sony-move-targeted-equally-at-core-and-casual


SCE Worldwide Studios boss Shuhei Yoshida has told us that the company will cater equally to mainstream and hardcore tastes with its new motion controller, PlayStation Move.

We asked him during a recent interview how Sony’s focus was spilt between making Move an effort to appeal to a wider consumer base, and about making traditional games work in a different way.

“I would say 50:50,” he responded, adding that the company currently has “more than 20 teams working on Move”.


50/50 means the resources are spread, and Sony is neither focusing on casual nor core gamers. If Sony takes this broad-stroke approach, then the idea/draw behind PS Move and its messaging becomes ever more critical.

Based on what they have said so far, they seem to be naturally inclined towards core gamers -- at least from my perspective.


The following comment is interesting nonetheless. It's reassuring to hear for those who are curious about the precision, response time, etc:


“It was very interesting to hear comments by a certain journalist who tried Sports Champions’ table tennis, who clearly enjoyed playing the game but complained about the lack of perceived one-to-one control at certain times," he added. "During the GDC event we were showing the game’s entry-level mode, which includes a lot of assists to ensure that everyone who plays the game for the first time can enjoy it. However, we plan to have in the final game a more simulation-based mode, which will allow expert users to really try out their skills. That promises to be a hardcore experience.”

[Nesh]

50/50 means the resources are spread, and Sony is neither focusing on casual nor core gamers. If Sony takes this broad-stroke approach, then the idea/draw behind PS Move and its messaging becomes ever more critical.

To me it looks like they are focusing on both instead of not focusing on either which is also what MS wants to do. Core and casuals have always been Sony's and MS's aim to win over, and I think thats the best option. A message that is targeted only to core gamers or only to casuals would narrow the appeal, go against the current image of the brand or lose a potential market.

Sony unlike Nintendo didnt start fresh. They already have an existing market and an existing image of the product and have to adapt Move accordingly.

Sony always had studios developing projects for core gamers and others for casuals. thats why we got Buzz, Singstar, EyePet etc. The differentiator is the addition of move to their projects to expand the experience.

[cakefoo]

EA manages to cater to both Wiimote and Motion Plus users in a single game, with Tiger Woods and Grand Slam Tennis.

I don't think it would hurt to establish a difficulty rating system with novice, advanced and expert badges. If your game scales up for all 3 levels, you get all 3 badges.

[patsu]

To me it looks like they are focusing on both instead of not focusing on either which is also what MS wants to do. Core and casuals have always been Sony's and MS's aim to win over, and I think thats the best option. A message that is targeted only to core gamers or only to casuals would narrow the appeal, go against the current image of the brand or lose a potential market.

Sony unlike Nintendo didnt start fresh. They already have an existing market and an existing image of the product and have to adapt Move accordingly.

Sony always had studios developing projects for core gamers and others for casuals. thats why we got Buzz, Singstar, EyePet etc. The differentiator is the addition of move to their projects to expand the experience.

The end result will be very different from what Wii is today though. I think we will be able to see the difference by the end of this year.

EA manages to cater to both Wiimote and Motion Plus users in a single game, with Tiger Woods and Grand Slam Tennis.

I don't think it would hurt to establish a difficulty rating system with novice, advanced and expert badges. If your game scales up for all 3 levels, you get all 3 badges.

For individual titles, they will do the necessary to attract their own audiences (Just like how EyePet and SingStar target the casuals). For PS Move as a whole, the perceived image, pricing, value, etc. may be something else.

Let's see. If Sony stays on its current course, we should be able to tell the difference rather clearly by end of the year.

[Nesh]

The end result will be very different from what Wii is today though. I think we will be able to see the difference by the end of this year.

But of course it is going to be different. Thats the point.

[eloyc]

But of course it is going to be different. Thats the point.

It will be obviously different because Move offers camera + precise motion controller (interaction with real-time video) and that is an extra "appeal" for impressionable audience, mainly (but also something good for the traditional gamers, of course).

This way, Sony can avoid the audience to feel deceived (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EK2tWVj6lXw)(link) with a Wiimote rip-off, because the audience will perceive Move as a different product. That is a possibility, though.

[Nesh]

It will be obviously different because Move offers camera + precise motion controller (interaction with real-time video) and that is an extra "appeal" for impressionable audience, mainly (but also something good for the traditional gamers, of course).

This way, Sony can avoid the audience to feel deceived (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EK2tWVj6lXw)(link) with a Wiimote rip-off, because the audience will perceive Move as a different product. That is a possibility, though.
True

And at the same time unlike Wii it can appeal more to both the core and the casuals alike including gamers of older ages if executed well. Wii is still the platform that mostly sells on casual and party experiences

[ShadowRunner]

Exactly, to many current non-gamers the Wii is a total turn off because its still seen as a kids toy. They want to keep up the broad appeal, by going 100% for the casual audience they could potentially be narrowing their appeal. While being a jack of all trades is often looked at as a negative thing in a family environment it is actually a huge positive.

[patsu]

But of course it is going to be different. Thats the point.

Ha ha, I meant "different" as in different from the level of success Wii achieved. Specifically, the response may be luke warm to the consumers at large.

The camera differences are "technical", and if only EyePet use it... very few consumers will get exposed to PS Eye (Their attention will be on the motion controller). In fact, I am not entirely sure if Sony developed more cool stuff for PS Eye, or use/refine the existing controller-free technologies for more apps/games.

[eloyc]

Sorry if old, but I read this and something keeps intriguing me, still:
http://kotaku.com/5316484/playstation-camera-to-support-facial-recognition

Kish Hirani, Sony Europe's Head of Developer Services, spoke about facial recognition through the PlayStation Eye. Ok, I think that we all know this at this point but the article also noted that "In addition to facial recognition, Hirani says the PS3 will soon also be able to support other similar advances, such as "skeleton tracking"".

We also know that the key point in NATAL, besides the IR sensor, is the software developed by Microsoft (well explained in Digital Foundry's article, Prime Sense: Beyond Natal (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-primesense-article)).

Then:
1. NATAL uses depth information, obtained through the IR sensor.
2. PlayStation Eye applications, such as head tracking (including the augmented reality tech demo that overlapped a 3d head model over the image of a true head) seem to detect depth in a standard image through software... somehow.
3. Kish Hirani speaks about "skeleton tracking" through the PlayStation Eye.

So:
Is it possible for Sony to develop a similar result, skeleton tracking? I'm not speaking in a legal sense, about patents and all that stuff, though, but technically (software). We already saw tech demos were the Move helped to track the position of the arms and hands, in combination with head tracking (the ragdoll tech demo), but I mean without the Move, only with the PlayStation Eye.

May we consider EyeToy: AntiGrav a rudimentary example?

[Nesh]

Ha ha, I meant "different" as in different from the level of success Wii achieved. Specifically, the response may be luke warm to the consumers at large.

The camera differences are "technical", and if only EyePet use it... very few consumers will get exposed to PS Eye (Their attention will be on the motion controller). In fact, I am not entirely sure if Sony developed more cool stuff for PS Eye, or use/refine the existing controller-free technologies for more apps/games.

It is not easy to mimic Wii's level of success is it? Going strictly Nintendo's route doesn't sound like a good idea to me for Sony unless they want to alienate the PS3 from its current market and image. No matter how the consumers might receive Move investing on casual and core experiences simultaneous sounds like the best available option

I mentioned the EyePet as an example that shows that Sony was investing on casual experiences regardless of, not as an example to show the usefulness or the technical differences. But even with the technical differences, it is hard to ignore that Move has potential to work with core titles and refine the experience where Wii lacked.

[dragonelite]

Has this been posted yet?


"Here's a video from MS Israeli RnD showing Natal's sensing."

:oops:
http://www.nextgn.com/2010/04/15/this-is-how-project-natal-camera-sees-the-player-shaky-cam-video/

[Shifty Geezer]

Has this been posted yet?As you've provided no explanation of what it is you're linking to, that's kinda hard to determine. :roll: :p

The better post would have been :
"Here's a video from MS Israeli RnD showing Natal's sensing."

Don't worry about posting stuff that's been posted before. That's far less annoying than random links!

On topic - Good video! The time to recognise the fella was very quick, and lag was pretty minimal. There was only one oddity towards the end as the data points changed colour from vibrant to very faded, as if it suddenly lost depth resolution or something. There was also a strange bit of noise on the girl's detection, with hot spots on her left hand. I think that's a ring and bracelet, with a buckle showing up on the waist, suggesting reflective materials are affecting the depth perception somehow. Curious...

[Arwin]

suggesting reflective materials are affecting the depth perception somehow. Curious...

That doesn't seem so curious - infra-red is still light, right? So anything reflective is going to cause trouble, and it may well be that the application is going to work better with some clothing than others. Makes me wonder if there is really an issue with dark-skin, as some dark skin can be very reflective (and insulating - which is the whole point - protection against sunlight). Probably not, but who knows?

(still have to watch the vid)

[Nesh]

As you've provided no explanation of what it is you're linking to, that's kinda hard to determine. :roll: :p

The better post would have been :
"Here's a video from MS Israeli RnD showing Natal's sensing."

Don't worry about posting stuff that's been posted before. That's far less annoying than random links!

On topic - Good video! The time to recognise the fella was very quick, and lag was pretty minimal. There was only one oddity towards the end as the data points changed colour from vibrant to very faded, as if it suddenly lost depth resolution or something. There was also a strange bit of noise on the girl's detection, with hot spots on her left hand. I think that's a ring and bracelet, with a buckle showing up on the waist, suggesting reflective materials are affecting the depth perception somehow. Curious...
yeah the response was pretty fast in this one.

Just wondering though, is lag affected by the resolution settings of the camera and the complexity of the game?

This one was a very simple demo, and the screen showed only the detected silhouette so I was wondering if there would be any change with more complex applications and higher resolution detection

[Shifty Geezer]

That doesn't seem so curious - infra-red is still light, right? So anything reflective is going to cause trouble...I can't see why that'd affect time-of-flight though. Reflective materials don't increase the speed of light! this points somewhat towards the detective pattern approach rather than TOF.

yeah the response was pretty fast in this one.
...
This one was a very simple demo, and the screen showed only the detected silhouette so I was wondering if there would be any change with more complex applications and higher resolution detectionThe girl only appeard to be the point cloud, but the guy showed the skeleton appear very quickly and get tracked. Irrespective of the game, the skeleton tracking should be the factor determining lag, so this bodes well.

[ShadowRunner]

I can't see why that'd affect time-of-flight though. Reflective materials don't increase the speed of light! this points somewhat towards the detective pattern approach rather than TOF.


It doesnt actually use time of flight, its been confirmed.

[Shifty Geezer]

Was that the projected pattern solution, and the TOF camera was just shored up to prevent its use by other parties?

[LightHeaven]

Lag does seems pretty minimal with one person in front on the camera, but when the second player showed up it got pretty jerky...

If that's the performance they are getting for 2 players that pretty much scraps off 4 simultaneous players at once.

Was that the projected pattern solution, and the TOF camera was just shored up to prevent its use by other parties?

Probably for that, and for ensuring technology for future use, when the costs go down.

[eloyc]

Sorry, guys, I find interesting the latest discussion on this but I would like to read your opinions on the questions in my previous post (http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1420854&postcount=2195), too. If those questions were discussed before, please provide a link.

Thank you.

[goonergaz]

Sorry, guys, I find interesting the latest discussion on this but I would like to read your opinions on the questions in my previous post (http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1420854&postcount=2195), too. If those questions were discussed before, please provide a link.

Thank you.

I'm no expert, but I don't see why not...other than the lighting conditions and potential overhead...in fact I'm sure before eyetoy first came out I saw similar demos at ECTS

[Rolf N]

Sorry, guys, I find interesting the latest discussion on this but I would like to read your opinions on the questions in my previous post (http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1420854&postcount=2195), too. If those questions were discussed before, please provide a link.

Thank you.Intuitively, deducting poses from 2D data should be very doable, applying some amount of assumptions and context. We can easily recognize the way people stand with one eye closed, or indeed looking at a 2D photo. Human vision is complex, but it shows that source data with depth removed is still sufficient.

For posterity, if you can recognize the face, you can infer the front of the body because people generally can't turn their heads more than 70~80°. If you assume symmetry of the torso, you can infer the angle (and some relative depth information). You can assume symmetry of arms, joint constraints and constant lengths to "train" your system to an individual. As the arms appear thinner or thicker, longer or shorter, you can infer changes in depth and angles etc.

One could argue that depth info makes the processing easier, as it resolves ambiguities. I don't know how much of a factor that really is though. Some ambiguities can already be solved with assumptions about the joint structure (a knee will never tilt forward and such). Background separation is maybe the big thing here, but it was never demonstrated if the tech actually does that well -- the demo stages were always wide and empty; demo setups were all sideways, far away from the next "back" wall.

[patsu]

Sorry, guys, I find interesting the latest discussion on this but I would like to read your opinions on the questions in my previous post (http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1420854&postcount=2195), too. If those questions were discussed before, please provide a link.

I have seen some work in 2D skeleton tracking. I think you may be able to find them on youtube.

Here's a paper on a possible approach:
http://dircweb.king.ac.uk/papers/Mart%C3%ADnez%20del%20Rincón09_32358224/bmvc_abstract.pdf
(from Google search result. Not sure if applicable to gaming)

EDIT:
On a related note, a new studio has been formed to do motion games for the consoles:
http://www.joystiq.com/2010/04/15/side-kick-founded-to-work-on-motion-based-games-for-next-gen-ga/

[cakefoo]

I got a really annoying popup earlier, so here's a Youtube link to the Natal onstage demonstration: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwRtMcUrlJQ

The thing that irks me is that just like all the older CES demos from 3DV, etc, the joint markers are jumping around a bit. And I'm not just talking about when there are 2 people on screen at once.

[Squilliam]

I was considering the next generation of interfaces and how they relate to next generation consoles. With Nintendo they've obviously made their bed 100% with their Wiimote so they aren't confliced between two competing interfaces and with Natal Microsoft has a completely seperate identity for the camera and its seperate and/or used in conjunction with the standard console controller. However with Sony and the move its use requires at minimum between 3 and 5 accessories for a single person.

How can Sony reconcile the use of Move whilst maintaining their current controller layout for regular games which require it and without breaking the bank in terms of overall expense? Their current model is half in Wiimote world and half in the regular controller world and for the average person buying a console next generation thats a huge number of accessories. The layout for a mote style controller is nothing like the current Dual Shock 3 and they had a huge backlash from people when they showed off their prototype boomerang controller.

[patsu]

GamesRadar posted their impressions of the publicly available Move games to date:
http://www.gamesradar.com/f/hands-on-with-playstation-move/a-2010041510586912018

[corduroygt]

That motion fighter bit confirms my suspicions. Full body tracking is not viable since most gamers do not have the muscle coordination of athletes or superhuman game protagonists. I mean if I record myself jumping and climbing, I'm not going to look as elegant as Drake, by a long shot :) They'll all have to resort to some sort of gesture system.

[cakefoo]

That motion fighter bit confirms my suspicions. Full body tracking is not viable since most gamers do not have the muscle coordination of athletes or superhuman game protagonists. I mean if I record myself jumping and climbing, I'm not going to look as elegant as Drake, by a long shot :) They'll all have to resort to some sort of gesture system.That's just one game. It'll be on a case-by-case basis depending on the vision of the developer. Because the game has you doing complex pro moves, it's going to have to be gesture-based.

3DV made a more down-to-earth boxing game (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_yWZFcgPPk) that tracks the 1:1 location of where your fists land. So it is possible to do a fighting game without gestures, but only if you want to simplify the game and those gameplay mechanics that make Motion Fighters a more complete fighting game.

But I too hope Sony isn't getting too concerned with cinematic feel, and rather starts tapping some of the controller's potential.

[goonergaz]

However with Sony and the move its use requires at minimum between 3 and 5 accessories for a single person.

How can Sony reconcile the use of Move whilst maintaining their current controller layout for regular games which require it and without breaking the bank in terms of overall expense?

By bundling the PSEye and PSMove with the PS3. That way you could buy a DS3 and use it was the NAVCON (R) or as a standard controller.

[eloyc]

I'm no expert, but I don't see why not...other than the lighting conditions and potential overhead...in fact I'm sure before eyetoy first came out I saw similar demos at ECTS
Thank you for your reply. :-)

Intuitively, deducting poses from 2D data should be very doable, applying some amount of assumptions and context. We can easily recognize the way people stand with one eye closed, or indeed looking at a 2D photo. Human vision is complex, but it shows that source data with depth removed is still sufficient.

For posterity, if you can recognize the face, you can infer the front of the body because people generally can't turn their heads more than 70~80°. If you assume symmetry of the torso, you can infer the angle (and some relative depth information). You can assume symmetry of arms, joint constraints and constant lengths to "train" your system to an individual. As the arms appear thinner or thicker, longer or shorter, you can infer changes in depth and angles etc.

One could argue that depth info makes the processing easier, as it resolves ambiguities. I don't know how much of a factor that really is though. Some ambiguities can already be solved with assumptions about the joint structure (a knee will never tilt forward and such). Background separation is maybe the big thing here, but it was never demonstrated if the tech actually does that well -- the demo stages were always wide and empty; demo setups were all sideways, far away from the next "back" wall.
I see your point.

I also thought that some kind of preliminar calibration should help the system to recognize and locate the joints (like, "stand this way like the silhouette").

Then, I come again to the same point: skeletal tracking relies in a clever software (mostly) and Microsoft knew how to be the protagonist, here, taking a role that Sony could have played before and showing off their product as something revolutionary.

NATAL's hardware only provides a depth map, and I dare to say that those images are still 2d material. If it featured 2 cameras, then we could speak about real 3d input. It mades me think that PSEye can achieve similar results, at the end of the day, with proper software. I also suppose that an efficient use of the SPU's could help a lot on this.

Did I say too much? Maybe someone with a more technical approach can correct me on this. :???:

I have seen some work in 2D skeleton tracking. I think you may be able to find them on youtube.

Here's a paper on a possible approach:
http://dircweb.king.ac.uk/papers/Mart%C3%ADnez%20del%20Rincón09_32358224/bmvc_abstract.pdf
(from Google search result. Not sure if applicable to gaming)

EDIT:
On a related note, a new studio has been formed to do motion games for the consoles:
http://www.joystiq.com/2010/04/15/side-kick-founded-to-work-on-motion-based-games-for-next-gen-ga/
Thank you. :-)

I read the second link, yesterday, but I can't read the paper (the web browser just loads a bunch of random letters and symbols...).

[patsu]

You need a PDF viewer to read the paper.

[ShadowRunner]

Skeletal tracking on a 2d camera is possible but will only be skeletal tracking in 2d still. A 2d camera cant tell if a leg is moved forward, to the camera it hasnt moved at all.

Your simply not going to want to do it on a 2d camera alone much better of using face tracking(which can provide depth info from distance between two eyes) and the two wands(also depth info), as in the puppetry demo and then us 2d skeletal tracking to fill in the gaps.

[patsu]

I think one of the Move games use body tracking (not necessarily skeleton tracking). The GamesRadar article has some details.

Skeleton tracking is probably one of the many approaches to reason about your movement (e.g., What is the gamer doing right now ?). Other approaches may use constant motion (like EyeToy games), color matching, motion controller data to approximate the gamer's action. These approaches may be used together to achieve better results.

[Shifty Geezer]

NATAL's hardware only provides a depth map, and I dare to say that those images are still 2d material. If it featured 2 cameras, then we could speak about real 3d input.No. It's not a 3D spacial/volumetric capture (which is 3D scanning a la medical and model-creation), but it is capturing 3 positional dimension values. Sterescopic depth perception isn't the only way to determine distance to an object, but it is the natural way so gains an unfair reputation.

As for depth camera capabilities, put your hand flat upon your chest. Now move it a few cms forward and twist it ever so slightly to one side. The size and shape of the hand on a 2D image will be very hard to track and determine that the hand has moved forwards, whereas a depth camera will have exactly that info. It elliminates completely the lighting issues of contrast-based image recognition, which were a considerable inconvenience to EyeToy and EOJ. Move solves this by providing a light source, which just goes to show relying on a camera will not provide robust results. There's a reason TV studios are full of bright lights!

Though the theory of image-based human skeleton tracking is sound, I consider it highly implausible a solution could be found in the consumer space. Such technology ought to first appear in movies, where real actor tracking without blue-screening and point markers for mo-cap would be a huge advance. If it's not being used there yet, I doubt it'll appear first in a games console.

[eloyc]

You need a PDF viewer to read the paper.

I know. Thank you. I already have Adobe Acrobat and its plug-ins for IE and Firefox, but still... Weird.

[eloyc]

Skeletal tracking on a 2d camera is possible but will only be skeletal tracking in 2d still. A 2d camera cant tell if a leg is moved forward, to the camera it hasnt moved at all.
Maybe here it could be useful the preliminar callibration which I talked about. Once the system has recognized the length of a thig, for instance, any further changes in that length should be interpreted as rotation. Other parameters, such as the position of a foot, can help to interpret if the rotation is forward or backwards.

Your simply not going to want to do it on a 2d camera alone much better of using face tracking(which can provide depth info from distance between two eyes) and the two wands(also depth info), as in the puppetry demo and then us 2d skeletal tracking to fill in the gaps.
Yes, I remember this demo and your explanation is correct. Thank you.

[eloyc]

No. It's not a 3D spacial/volumetric capture (which is 3D scanning a la medical and model-creation), but it is capturing 3 positional dimension values. Sterescopic depth perception isn't the only way to determine distance to an object, but it is the natural way so gains an unfair reputation.
Yes, I see the difference.

As for depth camera capabilities, put your hand flat upon your chest. Now move it a few cms forward and twist it ever so slightly to one side. The size and shape of the hand on a 2D image will be very hard to track and determine that the hand has moved forwards, whereas a depth camera will have exactly that info. [...]
Another example of a difficult position/rotation to track (for a standard camera) is when a leg is rotated forward/backwards, isn't it? Is the same example that I said above in response to ShadowRunner. Do you consider that the possible solutions that I pointed are likely to be considered?

Though the theory of image-based human skeleton tracking is sound, I consider it highly implausible a solution could be found in the consumer space. Such technology ought to first appear in movies, where real actor tracking without blue-screening and point markers for mo-cap would be a huge advance. If it's not being used there yet, I doubt it'll appear first in a games console.
Then, you don't "believe in NATAL"? Sorry if I didn't understand.

[Arwin]

Then, you don't "believe in NATAL"? Sorry if I didn't understand.

I think Shifty means by virtue of just analysing the information of one regular 2D camera. Incidentally, that does exist, currently being developed for upscaling movies to 3D, but it is far from perfect. Some 3D TVs also have processing capabilities for something like that built-in.

[Shifty Geezer]

Then, you don't "believe in NATAL"? Sorry if I didn't understand.I said "image based," in contrast to depth-based. Or perhaps, depth-assisted image recognition. :p If it helps, I'll rephrase myself as, "I consider it highly implausible a single-camera solution working in the visible-spectrum domain will provide an effective, accurate skeleton tracking system in the consumer space." The field of motion capture is rooted in motion pictures, and if anyone is going to be chasing and solving the problem of turning a 2D animated image into 3D data, it'll be the FX guys working in that industry without the limitations of price, lighting conditions, or processing power.

[ShadowRunner]

Its possible in theory, your brain can process a 2d image and see depth using various different visual cues , its just that its never going to happen in the CE space because there are other better methods available that dont need the processing power of our brains or a camera as sensitive as our eyes. Nobody is going to put the time and money into it when there are much better and more sensible alternatives.

There are some 2D to 3D algorithms being developed for TVs but once everything is filmed in 3D to begin with they will see no further development either.

[eloyc]

Thank you, guys, for all your replies so far.

:-)

- - - - -

My next question is on the Move controller.

We all know that the PSEye uses the "light ball" at the top of the controller to calculate depth. In some videos, we can notice the problems with augmented reality objects, linked at the tip of the controller, when the PSEye can't see the "light ball" (they appear at a wrong location/rotation).

Can't this be overcome some way?

[Shifty Geezer]

No, otherwise Sony would have done so...:p They've been researching this stuff for years! Once the bulb is occluded, the controller's position has to be guessed, and this is prone to errors. From what I recall seeing, the AU projection is actually spot-on and very convincing (I hope applications use an environment capture as a projected lightmap to aid realism) and I don't remember any significant errors. There may be a few bugs in current code that you've spotted, just like Natal's "Funky Limb Syndrome" in some of its earliest showings.

[patsu]

I know. Thank you. I already have Adobe Acrobat and its plug-ins for IE and Firefox, but still... Weird.

Hmm... your browser setting may be borked. You may have better luck by saving the document to disk and view with Acrobat.

2D camera recognition is also used in the surveillance space. I remember some researchers were looking at how to get 2D cameras to interpret body movement and decide say... if a robbery or theft is happening in a retail store. I think they intended to do it in near real time. There was a Cell paper on it.

The Casinoes probably have the best use of camera surveillance. But they may not use skeleton tracking (Only need to focus on the hands and table).

EDIT: They also have face recognition systems in the lobby and carpark to reject unwanted guests *before* they alight from the car.

The brain wave controller has arrived. I might be able to write some impressions after Monday.

[patsu]

PlayStation Move Developer Diary – The Fight: Lights Out:
http://blog.us.playstation.com/2010/04/16/playstation-move-developer-diary-the-fight-lights-out/

It's a video interview with the "boxing" game developer.

[Danalys]

Though the theory of image-based human skeleton tracking is sound, I consider it highly implausible a solution could be found in the consumer space. Such technology ought to first appear in movies, where real actor tracking without blue-screening and point markers for mo-cap would be a huge advance. If it's not being used there yet, I doubt it'll appear first in a games console.

It was used on Ironman.

[AzBat]

New Natal game demoed...

River Rush

Then Dave and I played River Rush together. It’s a game where you stand side by side in a river raft, so it’s two people playing at once. To move right, you have to step right; to move left, you have to step left. As you rush down right rapids, you have to jump up and slap floating stars in the air – the whole raft jumps up every time you do. This game was even more exhilarating than the kicking one, and even more aerobically challenging. In fact, I’d say the ONLY drawback to the Natal some people may have is that you have to get up off your ass to play it. But, for me, a person who likes exercise and gaming, it’s sort of a dream come true. An hour of playing Natal every night will definitely burn calories.

http://www.jamesgunn.com/2010/04/15/quick-impression-on-microsofts-natal/

About time they showed something new. Sounds interesting, in a Wii kind of way. Still probably not the kind of game I'm looking for. Unless it was motion-controlled River Raid. LOL

Tommy McClain

[patsu]

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/28121/Games_for_Health_Conference_Reveals_Gingold_PlaySt ation_Move_Keynotes.php


Games for Health Conference organizers have revealed the keynote lineup for its sixth annual serious games-focused event, with speakers including Spore designer Chaim Gingold and Sony senior researcher Dr. Richard Marks.

On May 26th, Marks will discuss the relationships between gaming, play, and exercise, particularly in relation to his work on Sony's upcoming motion-sensing peripheral PlayStation Move. Marks will also explore exercise's role in Sony's previously released EyeToy and PlayStation Eye peripherals.

[eloyc]

No, otherwise Sony would have done so...:p They've been researching this stuff for years! Once the bulb is occluded, the controller's position has to be guessed, and this is prone to errors. From what I recall seeing, the AU projection is actually spot-on and very convincing (I hope applications use an environment capture as a projected lightmap to aid realism) and I don't remember any significant errors. There may be a few bugs in current code that you've spotted, just like Natal's "Funky Limb Syndrome" in some of its earliest showings.
I understand, thank you.

Hmm... your browser setting may be borked. You may have better luck by saving the document to disk and view with Acrobat.
I already downloaded it. When I arrive home, I will read it. Thank you.

The brain wave controller has arrived. I might be able to write some impressions after Monday.
I've seen cool stuff on this. We may see this on consoles as a peripheral. Maybe Nintendo is already working on this (they are always innovating, aren't they? :roll:).

[patsu]

Well... my friend play with it first. It seems to require quite a bit of training to focus. Will post more later.

[Arwin]

Well... my friend play with it first. It seems to require quite a bit of training to focus. Will post more later.

I've read several impressions on this - apparently it can take a few weeks of training 30-60 minutes a day!

[Rolf N]

The brain wave controller has arrived. I might be able to write some impressions after Monday.What model is that, who made it? Any links?

Not to poop on your party, but it seems like a fool's errand to me to want to interface "directly" with the brain through your skull surface. I'd rather learn how to control stuff with my tongue. Bunch of nerves going there and back out, which would surely help. The whole idea of "direct" control seems to be the elimination of the muscle/sensor layer as a transmission medium, but I fail to understand how bone and skin are more adequate for the job. I'd expect them to insulate the interface from the raw nerve interaction actually.

You're not implanting probes into your brain directly, are you? :razz:

[obonicus]

Do you have to shave your hair?

[patsu]

Do you have to shave your hair?


You're not implanting probes into your brain directly, are you? :razz:

No, come on, I am smarter than that !
I shall swallow teh chip.


I've read several impressions on this - apparently it can take a few weeks of training 30-60 minutes a day!

No sh*t ! My IQ jumped a few points just by looking at his "focus face". It's a little like a painful constipation.

[patsu]

More hands-on impression on Natal:
http://www.jamesgunn.com/2010/04/15/quick-impression-on-microsofts-natal/


Then Dave and I played River Rush together. It’s a game where you stand side by side in a river raft, so it’s two people playing at once. To move right, you have to step right; to move left, you have to step left. As you rush down right rapids, you have to jump up and slap floating stars in the air – the whole raft jumps up every time you do. This game was even more exhilarating than the kicking one, and even more aerobically challenging. In fact, I’d say the ONLY drawback to the Natal some people may have is that you have to get up off your ass to play it. But, for me, a person who likes exercise and gaming, it’s sort of a dream come true. An hour of playing Natal every night will definitely burn calories.


Natal football and boxing are coming too.

[patsu]

Was browsing through the Sony ideas website, and noticed this recent submission:
http://share.blog.us.playstation.com/ideas/2010/04/15/pictionary/


Pictionary for the Move. Not my favorite idea but it was mentioned to me that it would be a good selling point for families (probably if its included on the harddrive or with the Move.)


I think it's a good match for a MP game.

[obonicus]

I think there's a WiiWare title that offers Pictionary.

[AzBat]

More hands-on impression on Natal:
http://www.jamesgunn.com/2010/04/15/quick-impression-on-microsofts-natal/



Natal football and boxing are coming too.

Umm, look up 9 posts. LOL

Tommy McClain

[patsu]

I think there's a WiiWare title that offers Pictionary.

I can only find Sega's PictoImage. :(

Umm, look up 9 posts. LOL

Heh, I thought it sounded familiar.

[patsu]

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/28121/Games_for_Health_Conference_Reveals_Gingold_PlaySt ation_Move_Keynotes.php

Nintendo released a free Health app for DS:
http://www.andriasang.com/e/blog/2010/04/19/nintendo_health_app/


Almost Daily Health Notebook is, as the name might suggest, a health notebook where you record information about your health. You can store information about your physique, including height, weight and allergies. You can also keep a record of the illnesses you've had (up to 16) and the medication you're taking (up to 24). The app also lets you store more detailed information about HIV and influenza tests.


Seems one-off.

[Graham]

This is interesting, if exceptionally vague...

http://www.gamereactor.eu/news/3440/Natal-support+for+Ghost+Recon/?sid=56ffe2fe7bd8aa4489013460439063a7


Ghost Recon: Future Soldier will come with Natal-support

'You should be able to give orders by pointing.'


Although it's very vague and hand wavey statement (literally :mrgreen:), it would suggest Natal can cope with a player who is sitting with a controller.

It also may help reduce fears that Natal is too much overhead for AAA games.

[LightHeaven]

This is interesting, if exceptionally vague...

http://www.gamereactor.eu/news/3440/Natal-support+for+Ghost+Recon/?sid=56ffe2fe7bd8aa4489013460439063a7



Although it's very vague and hand wavey statement (literally :mrgreen:), it would suggest Natal can cope with a player who is sitting with a controller.

It also may help reduce fears that Natal is too much overhead for AAA games.

I was hoping for that kinda of support for splinter-coop or a new R6, but if well done it will be a welcome addition to Graw3 too :P

[Shifty Geezer]

It also may help reduce fears that Natal is too much overhead for AAA games.I wonder what the scalability of Natal tech is? Can it be set to track a single hand and reduce overhead, or will it be doing a full skeleton track in all circumstances? I'd imagine the latter, but it'd be nice to hear the devs have more options.

[LightHeaven]

I wonder what the scalability of Natal tech is? Can it be set to track a single hand and reduce overhead, or will it be doing a full skeleton track in all circumstances? I'd imagine the latter, but it'd be nice to hear the devs have more options.

Doesn't make much sense that natal would need to see you entire body every time since they allow you to play the game even when not totally in sight of the camera.

So, assuming it can track some parts of your body without having to track it entirely i guess tracking just a hand or something like that should be a option, unless it doesn't make a difference from a performance point.

[patsu]

It is possible to use a totally different set of motion tracking algorithm for different games. They will use different amount of resources.

e.g., They can overlay a transparent layer of buttons over each teammate in the field. If you align your hand gestures (or just finger) over one of these buttons, the soldier behind that button can be selected. Creature Feature has similar feature for its UI screen (although the buttons are static there).

You should be able to point to the screen and give orders to the media player to play a DVD (without the skeleton tracker) too.

[Shifty Geezer]

So, assuming it can track some parts of your body without having to track it entirely i guess tracking just a hand or something like that should be a option, unless it doesn't make a difference from a performance point.I'm guessing the identify the whereabouts of an arm requires a complete recognition of the player. Once identified though, the hand position could be tracked without regard for the rest of the body. I don't know how their skeletal system works though, and there may be interdependencies of limbs for recognition requiring a full skeleton identification. eg. To know the right arms orientation, you need to know where the body is and how it's aligned, which will need to consider the legs.

It is possible to use a totally different set of motion tracking algorithm for different games. They will use different amount of resources.Yes, I was thinking that. In a very simple form, they could have a 2D interface a la EyeToy, but only trigger a button if the z-position of the underlying motion is less than a threshold. Basically it'd be a dead-simple 2D analysis of the captured depth-buffer. As all processing is on XB now, this raw data must be available to devs to play with without needing to call the interpretation libraries. If they want to go with more sophisticated gesture recognition, they could still do some work with visual methods without the skeleton tracking.

[patsu]

Yes, I was thinking that. In a very simple form, they could have a 2D interface a la EyeToy, but only trigger a button if the z-position of the underlying motion is less than a threshold. Basically it'd be a dead-simple 2D analysis of the captured depth-buffer. As all processing is on XB now, this raw data must be available to devs to play with without needing to call the interpretation libraries. If they want to go with more sophisticated gesture recognition, they could still do some work with visual methods without the skeleton tracking.

I am curious to see something like DMC4 using Move, Wiimote+ and Natal: You can aim and grab enemies from a distance into your hands to beat them up.

[Rolf N]

I don't think there's a clear solution to what's supposed to happen in a 3rd-person game where the player can walk towards the camera. How do you "1:1" when the avatar's right arm is on the left side of the screen and vice versa?