Old Discussion Thread for all 3 motion controllers [Archive] - Page 8

patsu

21-Mar-2010, 23:13

The latter just makes the whole system too expensive.

It's actually camera plus mic array.

I don't think PSEye costs a whole lot though. I consider it a worthwhile purchase since it enables additional applications for me (e.g., Voice chat when I'm too lazy to put on headset, video conferencing with other PS3 friends in the living room, powered Eye of Judgment).

I am sure more can be done if Sony and partners put their soul and mind to it.

As for the bulb, they just need to think of a few key apps to highlight its usefulness and people will understand. I vote for a Kratos ferrying and fighting with an Olympian Torch mini-game.

EDIT:
Personally, I am still very very keen on the bulb's applications without turning on the TV, or even the PS3.

Besides music visualization with the color light, I think some sort of XMB message alert, ringer and other alarm would be cool. e.g., The bulb can flash or light up in different colors if russo121 sent me a KZ2 invite while I was not looking at the screen. Or when someone in Home "tap" me while my avatar was sleeping. Or when someone tried to video conference me when my PS3 is off. I think many of us use the PS3 for listening to music and other media tasks. Little things like these are very helpful and improve community building.

AzBat

21-Mar-2010, 23:41

It's actually camera plus mic array.

I don't think PSEye costs a whole lot though.

The camera could come with a built-in bottle opener for all I care. It's still going to be more expensive than the Wii sensor bar. And since it doesn't come with the system it's an extra component that makes the system too expensive. One thing going for Natal is you only need the one device.

As for the lightbulb, you can spin it however you want, but it still dorky looking & unnecessary.

Tommy McClain

patsu

22-Mar-2010, 01:12

NeoTechni

22-Mar-2010, 01:16

And since it doesn't come with the system it's an extra component that makes the system too expensive.

Sony said it's coming with the system later on
Wii fit cost more than Move will, it sold fine.

As for the lightbulb, you can spin it however you want, but it still dorky looking & unnecessary.

No, it is necessary. It provides a tracking position viewable from any angle, solving wiis problem of the sensor bar only working when the controllers are pointed at it. And the color lights solve the problem of determining what to track.

Just cause you think it's ugly doesn't mean it's unnecessary, it's there for a reason.

patsu

22-Mar-2010, 01:51

Wii fit cost more than Move will, it sold fine.

Yes... but Wii Fit addressed an unserved need from the get go, PS Move may not initially. This may (will) be a problem for PS Move.

AzBat

22-Mar-2010, 03:34

The Wiimote has an inexpensive IR camera inside. One for every Wiimote, plus a sensor bar. The PS Move has a regular web camera outside, one for each PS3 to track 2-4 controller bulbs.

The camera can do facial recognition, head tracking, voice recognition, body tracking today; stuff that Natal wants to do (and improve on) in the future. Unless you think all these features are a waste of time. I don't see why the camera is wasteful.

For the purpose of doing motion controlling the Wii has shown that a cheap sensor bar will work. The cost of the Wii Remote plus the sensor bar is more likely to cost less than the PS3 Move plus PS Eye. For one player that difference may not be such a big barrier, but start adding more players and you can see how expensive it could be even compared to the Wii.

See my track record, the kind of motion controlling I was looking forward to was something like Wii or the Gametrak Freedom, but without a sensor of any kind. The only thing that came that close was the Motus Darwin, but it disappeared into obscurity. Natal is ok since its just one device, but again I wanted something in my hand. The extra stuff that Natal & PSEye bring are neat and all but they seem like they were bolted on to give added value to the motion system.

Tommy McClain

AzBat

22-Mar-2010, 03:41

No, it is necessary. It provides a tracking position viewable from any angle, solving wiis problem of the sensor bar only working when the controllers are pointed at it. And the color lights solve the problem of determining what to track.

Just cause you think it's ugly doesn't mean it's unnecessary, it's there for a reason.

I know full well that it's necessary from a technical standpoint for Sony's method. I just meant it's unnecessary from a game-play or user standpoint. I want the motion tracking to be able to do everything the Move can do without the camera or light-bulb.

Tommy McClain

patsu

22-Mar-2010, 03:58

For the purpose of doing motion controlling the Wii has shown that a cheap sensor bar will work.

Sure, but PS Move added some improvements. It can do absolute positioning and doesn't seem to require frequent calibration. There is no need to keep the controller pointed at the screen/sensor bar.

The cost of the Wii Remote plus the sensor bar is more likely to cost less than the PS3 Move plus PS Eye. For one player that difference may not be such a big barrier, but start adding more players and you can see how expensive it could be even compared to the Wii.

Probably best to get real pricing info to see how much of a difference it is. Otherwise, it's your guesstimates vs my words. Like I said, the camera is not an incremental cost for PS Move controller. There is only one camera for the entire set up. The Wiimote will have 1 IR camera per user. I don't see why the PSEye is a variable cost here.

See my track record, the kind of motion controlling I was looking forward to was something like Wii or the Gametrak Freedom, but without a sensor of any kind. The only thing that came that close was the Motus Darwin, but it disappeared into obscurity. Natal is ok since its just one device, but again I wanted something in my hand. The extra stuff that Natal & PSEye bring are neat and all but they seem like they were bolted on to give added value to the motion system.

The PSEye added absolute positioning and helps to calibrate the motion controllers. In practical terms, it allows user to write precisely using the controller. EyePet uses it for sketch recognition. It allows users to manipulate in-game objects precisely in a virtual (3D) environment. LittleBigPlanet may use it for user level construction.

For additional controller-free features, I'd say it depends on the games. It only feels bolted on if the game doesn't use it properly. I think SingStar speech recognition is great because you can control the game using the mic alone (No need to put down mic, navigate songs and categories using DS3, pick up mic). However if you try to use the speech recognition to do free-form conversation with the computer, then it will probably be a disappointment.

Refreshment

22-Mar-2010, 21:11

I want the motion tracking to be able to do everything the Move can do without the camera or light-bulb.

Tommy McClain
Interesting. So the product you are proposing is similar to the Sixense or at one time the eeeStick?

Regarding Move, it might not be original but its a definitive improvement over the Wiimote and has a lot more potential applications. Save for privacy reasons i dont understand why Nintendo choose to do an "inverse" kind of tracking with the camera.

Shifty Geezer

22-Mar-2010, 21:56

Save for privacy reasons i dont understand why Nintendo choose to do an "inverse" kind of tracking with the camera.You mean camera in Wiimote rather than Wii? I don't think the software tech was there by Wii's launch - Sony are only just rolling it out and they've been working on this stuff for years. Perhaps there's also a processing limitation with Wii not having enough grunt to do the iamge-processing?

thop

22-Mar-2010, 22:36

Save for privacy reasons i dont understand why Nintendo choose to do an "inverse" kind of tracking with the camera.
Probably to avoid having light bulbs on the remote, and maybe a few other reasons.

patsu

22-Mar-2010, 22:47

There is a Sony patent that uses a geometric shape (e.g., a rectangle) laid out using LED to do the same thing as the bulb -- judge distance from the PSEye accurately.

In the end, Sony chose the bulb. My guess is it's because:

(1) The bulb is visible even if the controller is held at weird angle at a greater distance

(2) It gives off brighter ("bigger") light to combat harsh lighting condition

Not sure if it's cheaper to make a bulb controller (vs a LED-rectangle controller).

I believe the developers will make use of the bulb. It's very easy to do, and also easily noticeable by the users.

EDIT:
The Wiimote has a different design goal. I remember it will mimic a traditional controller by holding it sideway. Having a bulb at one end would have compromised this requirement.

AzBat

22-Mar-2010, 23:33

Probably best to get real pricing info to see how much of a difference it is. Otherwise, it's your guesstimates vs my words. Like I said, the camera is not an incremental cost for PS Move controller. There is only one camera for the entire set up. The Wiimote will have 1 IR camera per user. I don't see why the PSEye is a variable cost here.

Who said anything about variable cost? The Wii & PS3 Move are pretty much the same thing, they just have the cameras swapped. The Wii sensor bar & PSEye are each at a fixed price. The Wiimote & PS3 Move controllers are each at a fixed price. Considering the materials, I don't see how either the PSEye or PS3 Move could be cheaper than their corresponding Wii counterparts. This is even if you have to buy enough controllers for 4 players( 4 Wiimotes & 1 sensor bar OR 3 PS3 Move controllers & 1 PSEye).

Tommy McClain

patsu

22-Mar-2010, 23:38

Who said anything about variable cost?

Him:
For one player that difference may not be such a big barrier, but start adding more players and you can see how expensive it could be even compared to the Wii.

Considering the materials, I don't see how either the PSEye or PS3 Move could be cheaper than their corresponding Wii counterparts. This is even if you have to buy enough controllers for 4 players(4 Wiimotes & 1 sensor bar OR 3 PS3 Move controllers & 1 PSEye)

Who says PS Move has to be cheaper ? Can it be equally priced ? The retail price is different from the BOM cost, although the latter is indeed a major driver. Nintendo has the volume advantage. However, the retail price also depends on how much $$$ Nintendo and Sony want to make out of each controller. Without official pricing info and BOM, I don't see where you get your data from. We don't even know for sure whether the subcontroller/nunchuck will have built-in sensors.

AzBat

22-Mar-2010, 23:48

Interesting. So the product you are proposing is similar to the Sixense or at one time the eeeStick?

Never heard of either. But after looking at them I like those a lot better than PS3 Move. The Sixense looks the better of the two, but it still looks like it has some kind of sensor. But at least you don't need direct line of sight. Seems similar to the Gametrak Freedom. So far the only one I've seen so far without any kind of sensor was the Motus Darwin.

Tommy McClain

ShadowRunner

22-Mar-2010, 23:51

Who said anything about variable cost? The Wii & PS3 Move are pretty much the same thing, they just have the cameras swapped. The Wii sensor bar & PSEye are each at a fixed price. The Wiimote & PS3 Move controllers are each at a fixed price. Considering the materials, I don't see how either the PSEye or PS3 Move could be cheaper than their corresponding Wii counterparts. This is even if you have to buy enough controllers for 4 players( 4 Wiimotes & 1 sensor bar OR 3 PS3 Move controllers & 1 PSEye).

Tommy McClain

The cameras are swapped yes but what this means is instead of one camera in moves case you have a camera per wiimote so for a 4 controller system you have 4 cameras whereas with move you have one no matter what.

To match moves functionality the motionplus addon needs to be bought as an addon for each wiimote. Once you have this each wiimote needs its own inbuilt camera which is above and beyond the materials needed in move. The built in battery adds cost to move but could work out cheeper for the consumer overall. Cost of bulb woud be an additional cost for move. wiimote has a speaker.

The move setup actually becomes better value the more controllers you add.

It still does not match the functionality though which is key, you should be looking at value rather than cost.

NwHwOUwEJAQ

Things like this are not possible on Wii. Its easy to see them as essentially the same things but this isnt the case.

patsu

23-Mar-2010, 00:02

Never heard of either. But after looking at them I like those a lot better than PS3 Move. The Sixense looks the better of the two, but it still looks like it has some kind of sensor. But at least you don't need direct line of sight. Seems similar to the Gametrak Freedom. So far the only one I've seen so far without any kind of sensor was the Motus Darwin.

Can Motus Darwin do absolute positioning ?

AzBat

23-Mar-2010, 00:04

For one player that difference may not be such a big barrier, but start adding more players and you can see how expensive it could be even compared to the Wii.

I said that because it's my belief that the PS3 Move controller will still be more expensive than the Wiimote. Let's be safe & say the PS3 Move is only $5 more per controller. That's $20 more after getting 4 players. That's not even counting the cost difference between a sensor bar & a PSEye.

Who says PS Move has to be cheaper ? Can it be equally priced ? The retail price is different from the BOM cost, although the latter is indeed a major driver. Nintendo has the volume advantage. The retail price also depends on how much $$$ Nintendo and Sony want to make out of each controller. Without official pricing info and BOM, I don't see where you get your data from.

Got it from common sense. A product released in 2006 with now cheaper components will more likely be cheaper than a product released 4 years later with slightly more expensive components. Even if the controllers were to cost the same(which I can't see) you still have figure in the cost difference between a cheap sensor bar & more expensive PSEye.

BTW, I've always been talking retail price.

Tommy McClain

AzBat

23-Mar-2010, 00:06

Can Motus Darwin do absolute positioning ?

Yes. It uses Earth's magnetic north for relative positioning.

Tommy McClain

ShadowRunner

23-Mar-2010, 00:16

I said that because it's my belief that the PS3 Move controller will still be more expensive than the Wiimote. Let's be safe & say the PS3 Move is only $5 more per controller. That's $20 more after getting 4 players. That's not even counting the cost difference between a sensor bar & a PSEye.

Got it from common sense. A product released in 2006 with now cheaper components will more likely be cheaper than a product released 4 years later with slightly more expensive components. Even if the controllers were to cost the same(which I can't see) you still have figure in the cost difference between a cheap sensor bar & more expensive PSEye.

BTW, I've always been talking retail price.

Tommy McClain

You are forgetting the need for motion+ add-on for each controller. I would expect retail price of a wiimote plus the motion+ addon to come in above a single Move.

Yes. It uses Earth's magnetic north for relative positioning.

Tommy McClain

Shouldnt Move be able to do this also? it has a built in compass. How does this give position information, surely it only gives the orientation of the device rather than position?

patsu

23-Mar-2010, 00:21

I said that because it's my belief that the PS3 Move controller will still be more expensive than the Wiimote. Let's be safe & say the PS3 Move is only $5 more per controller. That's $20 more after getting 4 players. That's not even counting the cost difference between a sensor bar & a PSEye.

Perhaps, but Motus Darwin is expected to sell for $79 - $100 according to http://www.gamespot.com/news/6234451.html

And you like it more than Wiimote+ ? Now, multiply it by 4 players, how much premium are you paying ? What about the nunchuck ? Who's going to write games for it ?

That's only for motion tracking and compass-based absolute positioning. PS Move does what Motus Darwin is doing, plus all the controller-free stuff PS Eye is capable of, and you are afraid of a conservatively/theoretical $5 hike per controller ?

Sony sold PS Eye at a $10 premium in Eye of Judgment.

Got it from common sense. A product released in 2006 with now cheaper components will more likely be cheaper than a product released 4 years later with slightly more expensive components. Even if the controllers were to cost the same(which I can't see) you still have figure in the cost difference between a cheap sensor bar & more expensive PSEye.

BTW, I've always been talking retail price.

If so, it would be more fruitful after Sony announces a price, and the final package.

AzBat

23-Mar-2010, 00:25

The cameras are swapped yes but what this means is instead of one camera in moves case you have a camera per wiimote so for a 4 controller system you have 4 cameras whereas with move you have one no matter what.

I don't look at it like that. You need 5 pieces of equipment for a Wii to do 4-player. On the PS3, I would also need 5 pieces of equipment to do 4-player. Plus, the cameras in the Wii Remote are much simpler & cheaper IR cameras.

To match moves functionality the motionplus addon needs to be bought as an addon for each wiimote. Once you have this each wiimote needs its own inbuilt camera which is above and beyond the materials needed in move. The built in battery adds cost to move but could work out cheeper for the consumer overall. Cost of bulb woud be an additional cost for move. wiimote has a speaker.

I can get Wii Remotes with included MotionPlus for less than $48 at Walmart. I can get replacement sensor bars for less than $15 at Walmart too.

The move setup actually becomes better value the more controllers you add.

http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/4/2010/03/500x_newchart.jpg

It still does not match the functionality though which is key, you should be looking at value rather than cost.

I'm looking at cost since I also have to look at purchasing the system too. I could get similar experiences(not necessarily as good as or better) on the Wii for much less money.

Tommy McClain

ShadowRunner

23-Mar-2010, 00:32

After a bit of reading Motus Darwin doesnt seem to offer absolute position trackin on x/y/z at all.

It seems to be identical in hardware to move. Without the PSEye they are essentially the same they give absolute orientation of the device, with the compass giving yaw wich gyros cant provide, which enables pointing. The pointing here doesnt take advantage of knowing were the controller is in 3d space though so all pointing is relative to a fixed point unlike with Move. You couldnt do pointing like in the torch demo or the camera control in the minority report demo with Motus Darwin. As soon as you move it would need recalibrating to its new position, something move can do on the fly. The camera in the Move system is there for x/y/z positioning, without it you are left with Motus Darwin. Without PSEye move should stil be capable of doing everything you see Motus Darwin doing.

ShadowRunner

23-Mar-2010, 00:49

I can get Wii Remotes with included MotionPlus for less than $48 at Walmart. I can get replacement sensor bars for less than $15 at Walmart too.

http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/4/2010/03/500x_newchart.jpg

I'm looking at cost since I also have to look at purchasing the system too. I could get similar experiences(not necessarily as good as or better) on the Wii for much less money.

Tommy McClain

That chart is terrible, $100 for a single move? Whoever made that needs thier head examined :lol:

Wii is going to work out cheaper overall i have little doubt, i dont see much point in the comparison though if the difference in features and experiences are not taken into account. In terms of value Move could win out by quite a margin.

Refreshment

23-Mar-2010, 00:57

You mean camera in Wiimote rather than Wii? I don't think the software tech was there by Wii's launch - Sony are only just rolling it out and they've been working on this stuff for years. Perhaps there's also a processing limitation with Wii not having enough grunt to do the iamge-processing?
Camera facing user. What im suggesting will work almost exactly the same as it works know, same tech inverse application. Obviously the camera accessory cost would be higher but then, 1 is required per console (instead of the low res ones in each remote -250*150???-). Im not saying that it would match what Sony offers now, even less so 4 years ago.

But simply im suggesting there are added benefits of having the camera facing the player. Obvious stuff like video conferencing, picture sharing and social networks. To more in depth stuff like content creation and uses in creativity software.

Its even more puzzling to me, since Nintendo has been toying with the use of cameras for enterteiment since a long time. To the point of having software that uses them laying around. Like for example Talent Studio for the 64DD.

Of course they had good reasons (at least for them) to use the current method but doesnt change the fact that i would love to know exactly what those reasons are :)

ShadowRunner

23-Mar-2010, 01:19

Camera facing user. What im suggesting will work almost exactly the same as it works know, same tech inverse application. Obviously the camera accessory cost would be higher but then, 1 is required per console (instead of the low res ones in each remote -250*150???-). Im not saying that it would match what Sony offers now, even less so 4 years ago.

But simply im suggesting there are added benefits of having the camera facing the player. Obvious stuff like video conferencing, picture sharing and social networks. To more in depth stuff like content creation and uses in creativity software.

Its even more puzzling to me, since Nintendo has been toying with the use of cameras for enterteiment since a long time. To the point of having software that uses them laying around. Like for example Talent Studio for the 64DD.

Of course they had good reasons (at least for them) to use the current method but doesnt change the fact that i would love to know exactly what those reasons are :)

The camera facing player solution wouldnt work without gyros and compass to give accurate orientation information. It was not cost effective to use gyros when Wii was first created. If they had been we may have seen what you suggest.

ShadowRunner

23-Mar-2010, 01:44

htraMklTg7Y

This video basically shows the capabilities of the move without PSEye. Its not until you think about it that the limitations with what you see here is clear. The pointing works but is calibrated to the players current position, if the player moves the calibration is still bassed on the players original position so while pointing still works in a sense it is not lightgun style pointing where you are pointing at the place on screen you want to be. For example you may be having to point at the top left or even off the screen in order for the cursor to appear in the centre of the screen depending on the devices new position. This makes any game that has players move position along with pointing impossible and would mean recalibration every time a controller is passed on in a party game for example. Move can handle this.

BadTB25

23-Mar-2010, 02:22

The cameras are swapped yes but what this means is instead of one camera in moves case you have a camera per wiimote so for a 4 controller system you have 4 cameras whereas with move you have one no matter what.

To match moves functionality the motionplus addon needs to be bought as an addon for each wiimote. Once you have this each wiimote needs its own inbuilt camera which is above and beyond the materials needed in move. The built in battery adds cost to move but could work out cheeper for the consumer overall. Cost of bulb woud be an additional cost for move. wiimote has a speaker.

The move setup actually becomes better value the more controllers you add.

It still does not match the functionality though which is key, you should be looking at value rather than cost.

NwHwOUwEJAQ

Things like this are not possible on Wii. Its easy to see them as essentially the same things but this isnt the case.

The demo was pretty cool, but I have feeling that it isn't something that couldn't be done with Natal (at least parts of it).

I wonder if Natal would add accessories like finger gloves that would allow the camera to read them easier for a similar or better interface ala Minority Report.

I like how creative the demo team were when thinking outside of the obvious implementations. I'm still more interested in motion controlled outside of games than within games.

AzBat

23-Mar-2010, 02:46

Perhaps, but Motus Darwin is expected to sell for $79 - $100 according to http://www.gamespot.com/news/6234451.html

And you like it more than Wiimote+ ? Now, multiply it by 4 players, how much premium are you paying ? What about the nunchuck ? Who's going to write games for it ?

That's only for motion tracking and compass-based absolute positioning. PS Move does what Motus Darwin is doing, plus all the controller-free stuff PS Eye is capable of, and you are afraid of a conservatively/theoretical $5 hike per controller ?

Sony sold PS Eye at a $10 premium in Eye of Judgment.

I've always talked about Darwin & the others in terms of their motion controller methods(no sensor, etc). Not their price or value proposition. Only brought them up to show there were other methods before the PS3 Move that I liked. Unfortunately, none of them will ever get released so talking about them further is just an exercise in futility. Right now out of the Big 3, the Wii with MotionPlus, is still hard to beat. If money was no object PS3 wit PSMove/PSEye would definitely be on top, but money is always an object in our home.

Tommy McClain

patsu

23-Mar-2010, 02:46

The demo was pretty cool, but I have feeling that it isn't something that couldn't be done with Natal (at least parts of it).

I agree. Sony's "Minority Report" demo follow's the user's movement, and use 2 controllers. It is possible to tone it down to support efficient window management using just 1 controller, and no 3D movement (No need to walk around and bend over to shuffle windows).

It should be possible to simplify it to support only hand gestures. The difference would be in the snappiness, and whether an additional accessory is needed (I don't think so).

I was trying to look for the complete Engadget show video, but couldn't find it. There are some missing parts in the videos in this thread:

This one shows the puppetry demo before the Minority Report UI:
_bLrHbJm2I4

This one is pre-show (Dr. Marks' old experiments with PS Eye)"
PflVWHiJu2o

patsu

23-Mar-2010, 02:51

I've always talked about Darwin & the others in terms of their motion controller methods(no sensor, etc). Not their price or value proposition.

If so, PS Move can do more than Morton Darwin (and you did complain about PS Move pricing). Retail price is similar since Sony and Morton promised under $100 (with a game). Btw, there are sensors in Morton Darwin. :) But it doesn't have a "secondary view" of itself to help determine the relationship of the motion controller w.r.t. the screen.

AzBat

23-Mar-2010, 03:00

That chart is terrible, $100 for a single move? Whoever made that needs thier head examined :lol:

Read the whole article at Gizmodo. The $100 is the low-ball price that includes 2 $40 Move controllers & a $20 sub-controller.

http://gizmodo.com/5491379/mental-math-the-playstation-move-experience-is-going-to-be-expensive

I think their $50 Move controller price is still low. I expect $55-$60.

Wii is going to work out cheaper overall i have little doubt, i dont see much point in the comparison though if the difference in features and experiences are not taken into account. In terms of value Move could win out by quite a margin.

It may indeed have a better value, but If people always bought everything based on the most bang for their buck, then everybody would be buying a PS3. But they're not, they're buying Wii & Xbox 360 more at least here in the US.

Tommy McClain

ShadowRunner

23-Mar-2010, 03:28

Read the whole article at Gizmodo. The $100 is the low-ball price that includes 2 $40 Move controllers & a $20 sub-controller.

http://gizmodo.com/5491379/mental-math-the-playstation-move-experience-is-going-to-be-expensive

Tommy McClain

You only need one move per person to reach the equivelent of what you get with Wii. PSMove supports a max of 4 wands or 2 wands and 2 subcontrollers. With 4 players each person will have one wand exactly like wii 4 player games. There artical is incorrect at a fundamental level.

The full config for Wii games = 4 wands(plus 4 motion+ for the majority) plus 4 nunchuck. Plus balance board.
The full config for Move games = 4 wands plus 2 nunchuck* and 1 camera.

*or DS3 you may already have one or more of

patsu

23-Mar-2010, 03:55

Yes, the article is flawed. There is no official data, so the numbers for 360 and PS3 are bogus.
The price are also meaningless without considering what the software can do, and how different they are. And we still don't know whether the subcontroller has sensors. The article is already corrected twice so far.

Other than helping Sony to prep the audience for low expectation, it's just leisure reading.

patsu

23-Mar-2010, 07:20

Notes on Project Natal:
http://www.techflash.com/seattle/2010/03/notes_on_project_natal.html

To be precise, you'll want to clear an area extending at least 4 meters (a little more than 13 feet) away from the television. That's the back edge of the space to be taken into account by the Natal sensors. In terms of width and height, the field of vision naturally expands as it moves from the Natal device to that back edge, ending up a little more than 4 meters wide and 2.7 meters high (about 8 feet, 10 inches).

one of the details that emerged from the session is that controllers and accessories can be used in conjunction with moving around to add even more elements of control to games.

... or snap your fingers, clap your hands, shout commands to simulate button presses. ^_^ (Good for home automation)

Mattrick said the response from consumers in testing of Project Natal has been "off the charts." Mattrick said he's excited about the types of experiences that game developers are creating with the system, declining to go into details. He noted that Natal is also getting interest from the broader entertainment industry, citing as an example Steven Spielberg's early endorsement.

The Natal team says the device requires less in the way of processing than the average smartphone, because they wanted to leave as much processing as possible available to the game itself.

Not sure what they mean by lesser processing than the average smartphone (processing what ? body tracking, voice recognition ?)

Brad Grenz

23-Mar-2010, 08:55

New Coke tested off the charts, too...

rabidrabbit

23-Mar-2010, 09:27

Huh? Natal needs 4 meters space between camera and the player.
http://www.techflash.com/seattle/2010/03/notes_on_project_natal.html

I guess it'd work with less distance, but 4 meters would be for optimal experience.
In my apartment my livingroom is little less than 4 meters from wall to wall in the direction I have my sofa and screen. Actual distance between sofa and screen is maybe 2,5 meters and there's a large, heavy coffee table between sofa and screen.
Natal would be just too much hassle for me to set up.

Edit: But the Milo demo worked with the "player" less than a meter away from the cam??? Did the prototype need that much less distance? Then why have they changed it for worse??

Brad Grenz

23-Mar-2010, 09:41

It needs 4 meters of open space so it doesn't get confused by furniture, etc. The player doesn't need to be 4 meters away.

rabidrabbit

23-Mar-2010, 09:48

It needs 4 meters of open space so it doesn't get confused by furniture, etc. The player doesn't need to be 4 meters away.
Ah! Ok, still, too much for me, unless I turn my whole livingroom setup 90 degrees.
In how many families can you convince them to clear up that much space just for some casual game playing? I would think many have at least a coffee table that would have to be moved every time.

liolio

23-Mar-2010, 10:16

Ugly, no way I can't fit it in my living room without huge adjustement, I could do a 90° just to play some games with my wife from time to time but honestly it's a bit too much bothering (or games would have to be really cool).

goonergaz

23-Mar-2010, 10:22

I could get similar experiences(not necessarily as good as or better) on the Wii for much less money.

Tommy McClain

I could drive a cheaper car, or buy a smaller house - what's your point?

You don't like it. Move along and buy the products you want and stop complaining, Sony are aiming for gamers who want accuracy and no frustration in there games with cash here, not those that think the Wii is cheap and good enough.

WRT the constant complaining of the price (based on no facts whatsoever) I find it laughable you've been given so much troll time...I mean even your guess of $5-10 more than the Wiimote - so what? That includes rechargable batts for a much nicer, more comfortable controller with more tech and better accuracy!

WRT overall value the PS3 has built in Bluray - people are begining to wake up to HD so might also consider this when buying a new console.

EDIT - I'll also add, I'm not best please I've been asked to spend another £80 by Ninty to fix their (let's face it) broken control system...and you're complaining about spending ~£80 on a completely new control system with demo.

ShadowRunner

23-Mar-2010, 10:25

goonergaz

23-Mar-2010, 10:38

Depends on the game, one that only tracks the upper body isnt likely going to be effected by a coffee table being there. If the game is the full body jumping around type you are probably going to want to clear a large area of space anyhow for safety reasons, especially with kids.

Natal seems to be chipping away at it's potential purchasers. Firstly 4 player was dropped (so it's not so good for party games), then we're told finger tracking won't work & it uses a chunk (15% IIRC) of resources (so, not so good for serious gamers) and now it seems it won't work very well in small or crowded rooms (so, not so good for kids or families in flats/small houses etc).

What exactly is the target for Natal which seems more and more like a glorified eyetoy? MS need to start beating their drums IMHO.

Brad Grenz

23-Mar-2010, 11:29

Natal seems to be chipping away at it's potential purchasers. Firstly 4 player was dropped (so it's not so good for party games), then we're told finger tracking won't work & it uses a chunk (15% IIRC) of resources (so, not so good for serious gamers) and now it seems it won't work very well in small or crowded rooms (so, not so good for kids or families in flats/small houses etc).

What exactly is the target for Natal which seems more and more like a glorified eyetoy? MS need to start beating their drums IMHO.

No wonder they're already teasing Natal 2.0. The first version sounds crappier and crappier the more we hear about it!

Rolf N

23-Mar-2010, 13:12

Notes on Project Natal:
http://www.techflash.com/seattle/2010/03/notes_on_project_natal.html
Mattrick said the response from consumers in testing of Project Natal has been "off the charts."Off in which direction?

This Mattrick guy still has a ways to learn. When Peter Moore was astroturfing the HD-DVD addon, at least he used solid language, i.e. "beyond".

NeoTechni

23-Mar-2010, 17:19

I'd imagine Move will cost less than Wiimotes, given Wiimote has an infrared camera and does image processing internally. Move uses PSeye, 1 camera for all the Moves, and image processing is done by the PS3.

And the subcontroller will cost a bit more than nunchucks, since they are wireless and have a battery.

I'd imagine the 2 combined would cost slightly less than a wiimote+nunchuck, a bluetooth module+battery seem cheaper than an infrared camera and image processor.

I don't believe that 4 total devices limit. Sony would have to go out of their way to enforce that. PS3 allows 7 devices. I'd imagine they'd let you connect as many devices as you could fit. Though 4 max Moves due to the tracking API. It should let you do 3 or 4 moves, and 3 subs fine.

patsu

23-Mar-2010, 17:34

Hmm... at the negativity. The system should be usable within reasonable bounds. I can't see why 2 meter would be a problem. Did they explain in more details ?

scently

23-Mar-2010, 20:25

Natal can be used in less space than 4 m, look at the previous demos if you have gotten confused.

patsu

23-Mar-2010, 20:33

Yes, I believe so. The article was talking about the maximum play area.

EyeToy/PSEye didn't have this restriction, so I don't believe Natal will have this weird limitation.

Arwin

23-Mar-2010, 20:52

It needs 4 meters of open space so it doesn't get confused by furniture, etc. The player doesn't need to be 4 meters away.

Well, if true, it's probably not going to work for us here. Like liolio, I do have the TV on an extensible arm so I can stick it out and turn it to get 4 meters depth, but the space is really small halfway the living room enclosed by two bookshelves, so not practical. Will have to wait and see. If this is really true, a lot of Europeans (especially in my area, extremely densely populated) and Asians among others aren't going to be able to use it.

(((interference)))

24-Mar-2010, 01:02

However, one of the details that emerged from the session is that controllers and accessories can be used in conjunction with moving around to add even more elements of control to games

This would pretty much nullify many of the advantages the Move would have over Natal.

Natal already seems to be the most versatile of the three.

obonicus

24-Mar-2010, 03:06

Brad Grenz

24-Mar-2010, 03:26

If they do, they're gonna look pretty stupid for spending the last year looking down their nose at PS Move. They'll also be ceding their price advantage. I also wonder what patent issues they might run in to for a wand. How much room is left between Sony and Nintendo's portfolios?

eastmen

24-Mar-2010, 03:45

Hmm... at the negativity. The system should be usable within reasonable bounds. I can't see why 2 meter would be a problem. Did they explain in more details ?

All these devices will require distance from the TV

Can you imagine being within arms reach of the tv and reacting and smashing your wii mote or ps move device right into the tv !!!!

I dunno i will wait for e3 before we jump to conclusions.

thop

24-Mar-2010, 03:48

Previously on this forum.
(http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1376750&postcount=939)

eastmen

24-Mar-2010, 03:52

So do you think natal 2 will have better cameras and more on board processing ?

Or do you think natal 2 will simply be dedicated computing power in the xbox next that doesn't interfer with the main cpu and gpu ? With natal from xbox 360 being the actual camera device ?

(((interference)))

24-Mar-2010, 04:09

Well, wasn't that a given? Natal can do everything the Eye can? Does MS intend on introducing controllers and accessories, though? Wasn't the whole point of that stupid gizmondo chart that the only price to entry would be Natal? Do you think Microsoft intends on springing a Natal Rod on us during E3?

Nope, I suggested it but some here thought MS would not allow accessories as it would dilute their 'no controller' stance.

I welcome the versatility adding optional accessories will give the system, rather than just limiting it to gesture based input.

Crossbar

24-Mar-2010, 05:58

Nope, I suggested it but some here thought MS would not allow accessories as it would dilute their 'no controller' stance.

I welcome the versatility adding optional accessories will give the system, rather than just limiting it to gesture based input.

The problem with that, is if the controller is not part of the standard setup supported by the platform holder it will not be supported by developers. (If they limit the input to the standard controller it´s no problem though)

Just look at EyeToy which sold several millions units but never gained support outside Sony.

With regard to Natal2, not really surprising in my opinion, research takes time. I bet Sony has a better camera in the works as well. I remember at the time of the realease of the Playstation Eye it was mentioned that there had been internal discussions at Sony of whether the camera should suppport HD or not, but it was decided based upon price. Not really surprising after the backlash of the $600 PS3. I remember Dr Marks said the PlaystationEye didn´t cost more than the EyeToy which I thought was a bit surprising considering it contains considerable more functionality: higher resolution, higher frame rate, mic array, two state lense etc.

patsu

24-Mar-2010, 06:07

All these devices will require distance from the TV

Can you imagine being within arms reach of the tv and reacting and smashing your wii mote or ps move device right into the tv !!!!

I dunno i will wait for e3 before we jump to conclusions.

Phhffft, that's common sense. I mentioned 2 meters, which should be fine.

_phil_

24-Mar-2010, 08:01

2 m is really short to get your whole body into the camera frustrum.

patsu

24-Mar-2010, 08:20

That's how far I stand when playing Creature Feature though. I don't usually care if my whole body is reflected in the TV (depends on the app, I guess). I find that my initial focus/position is more decided by how fast and how far I can reach the game objects. So the TV size (and how spread out the game objects are in the TV) determine my position. The second limitation is the coffee table behind me. ^_^

When I played with kids, they would always try to cut in front of me. Intuitively, if they couldn't reach the game objects, they would try to step closer to the TV (instead of further away). Those in front can also override people behind them. This is why when I showed PS Eye to a bunch of kids, they would _all_ swarm to the front.

patsu

24-Mar-2010, 08:42

Another "Minority Report" UI using Wiimote camera and gloves:
7CoJGrtVs4c

Should be possible with Natal and PS Eye too.

I think Dr. Marks and Anton did a good job showcasing PS Move:
http://kotaku.com/5500300/playstation-moves-minority-report-controls-in-action?skyline=true&s=i
...but tech demoes like these are aplenty. It's difficult to stand out with piece-meal tech demoes alone.

I'd love to see a PS3 UI based on the new Playstation Home world map UI. It allows me to navigate seamlessly between 2D and 3D. In 2D, PS Move should allow me to flip, peel, stack/layer, scroll, pick, drop, throw, and attract items. The XMB-like world map is quick and easy to manipulate. Since no 3D world is loaded yet, the startup time can be short. I think Sony should also enable hand gestures in the 2D world map. Even though gesturing may only work under good lighting conditions, or with large enough hands, it gives the user freedom to choose where it's most convenient for them. The PS Move controller is always a good fallback (but need to hunt for controller sometimes).

In 3D, PS Move would do away with the awkward object selection mechanism in Home. It adds pop-up window and contextual menu to the interaction. The in-game Home avatar can also be animated according to the puppetry demo we saw last week.

While online (e.g., LBP editor, video conferencing, chatting), the PS Move can show my online partners' hands in 3D -- especially on 3DTV.

Similarly, the Photo app, Life with Playstation, and PS Store should be enhanced with PS Move control schemes. The light ball would be useful as an alarm, ringer, reminder, trigger (e.g., incoming email), or music visualizer.

BadTB25

24-Mar-2010, 09:33

Good find.

I wonder if gesture based interfaces will replace the touch interface that we currently see used in the News and Sports programs on CNN, Fox, ESPN, etc.

It would help to un-tether them from the monitors and screens. The vid even mentioned that it was using MS Surface, but now with a motion sensing interface. I can see this really helping in making presentations and briefs more dynamic.

scently

24-Mar-2010, 10:17

Ever since Natal was announce, it has been said in many interviews that it can be used in conjunction with a controller. I don't know how you guys are suddenly getting the idea that it it must be a motion controller, the article mentions nothing of such. It can be used with a controller as a complimentary device.
Let me give an example for clarity sake. The next forza might use Natal for headtracking and the traditional controller for normal input. Actually Turn10 is hiring right now for a Natal position.

Rolf N

24-Mar-2010, 10:49

This would pretty much nullify many of the advantages the Move would have over Natal.

Natal already seems to be the most versatile of the three.Versatile? Maybe in the same way a hunk of wood is more versatile than finished furniture. But you're not going to turn videogame accessory potential into a videogame accessory product in your home yourself.

Danalys

24-Mar-2010, 10:52

When they first announced it they were suggesting using your own golf clubs for example. Although if you've got clubs you can probably go golfing for real, and even using a fake one would require clearing much more space around you. For small items with some weight there's the risk of breaking your TV. Most real world items don't have tethers that Nintendo had to add to the Wii remote. I suppose they can sell people fake things with tethers, but as stated above it makes it less of a bargin.

Danalys

24-Mar-2010, 10:56

Yes, I believe so. The article was talking about the maximum play area.

EyeToy/PSEye didn't have this restriction, so I don't believe Natal will have this weird limitation.

The IR camera only works over a certain distance. we've seen this in Marks' messing around with a 3DV camera video. He'd move back then the IR cam wouldn't show him any more. Minimum distance is down to the angle of the lens. You need to be far enough away so it can see enough of you.

(((interference)))

24-Mar-2010, 10:58

The problem with that, is if the controller is not part of the standard setup supported by the platform holder it will not be supported by developers. (If they limit the input to the standard controller it´s no problem though)

Just look at EyeToy which sold several millions units but never gained support outside Sony.

With regard to Natal2, not really surprising in my opinion, research takes time. I bet Sony has a better camera in the works as well. I remember at the time of the realease of the Playstation Eye it was mentioned that there had been internal discussions at Sony of whether the camera should suppport HD or not, but it was decided based upon price. Not really surprising after the backlash of the $600 PS3. I remember Dr Marks said the PlaystationEye didn´t cost more than the EyeToy which I thought was a bit surprising considering it contains considerable more functionality: higher resolution, higher frame rate, mic array, two state lense etc.

True, but I suppose we could see developers including 'enhanced' control schemes where a sub controller can be used, much like how Sony mentioned some games will have enhanced functionality if you use two wands instead of just one (or just one and the sub controller).

Versatile? Maybe in the same way a hunk of wood is more versatile than finished furniture. But you're not going to turn videogame accessory potential into a videogame accessory product in your home yourself.

It's more versatile in that it can be used effectively with or without a handheld controller (perhaps we'll even see games come bundled with controllers).
Also Natal will enhance the general UI of the 360, even outside of games. i.e. profile login via facial recognition, voice and gesture controls etc.

The biggest issue with Natal is whether it actually works and whether the retail product will be significantly watered down from what was originally promised in order to make it work.

obonicus

24-Mar-2010, 11:08

I wonder if we'll see more augmented reality/prop use at E3, for Natal. Beyond the E3 concept video there's been practically no talk on the subject.

Crossbar

24-Mar-2010, 12:15

True, but I suppose we could see developers including 'enhanced' control schemes where a sub controller can be used, much like how Sony mentioned some games will have enhanced functionality if you use two wands instead of just one (or just one and the sub controller).

If you by sub controller is refering to the Playstation sub controller it´s just an optional "half" DS3 and the DS3 will still be bundled with every PS3. Maybe MS will introduce a similar half controller which works better with Natal who knows. However, they made a big deal of controller free gaming, but that may just be marketing speech.

I am also curious of how Sony will handle the two wand games, obviously there will be games that will require two wands like fighting games. Maybe it will only be the Move games in the starter pack that works with one controler. Adaptions of more traditional games (like SOCOM and Resident Evil) will probably also be fine with just one wand and the DS3.

ShadowRunner

24-Mar-2010, 13:05

This would pretty much nullify many of the advantages the Move would have over Natal.

Natal already seems to be the most versatile of the three.

On the same note though it could also be possible to upgrade PSEye to a 3D camera at some point, and it could be a cheeper upgrade than a natal user who may need to purchase multiple wands. Very doubtful though.

goonergaz

24-Mar-2010, 14:41

This would pretty much nullify many of the advantages the Move would have over Natal.

Natal already seems to be the most versatile of the three.

Altho more resource hungry, which could make a big difference WRT implementation and takeup.

patsu

24-Mar-2010, 17:54

The IR camera only works over a certain distance. we've seen this in Marks' messing around with a 3DV camera video. He'd move back then the IR cam wouldn't show him any more. Minimum distance is down to the angle of the lens. You need to be far enough away so it can see enough of you.

Are you trying to tell me 2 meters away from the TV is not far enough for Natal ? I don't believe it.

Ever since Natal was announce, it has been said in many interviews that it can be used in conjunction with a controller. I don't know how you guys are suddenly getting the idea that it it must be a motion controller, the article mentions nothing of such. It can be used with a controller as a complimentary device.
Let me give an example for clarity sake. The next forza might use Natal for headtracking and the traditional controller for normal input. Actually Turn10 is hiring right now for a Natal position.

The problem is they sent mixed messages. "You are the controller !" (but why am I still holding a 360 controller then ?), and "You can use an additional controller/accessory if necessary". Not to blame them, but I think they were just looking for a sweet spot at that time. Now they should be more certain of what message to push.

I wonder if we'll see more augmented reality/prop use at E3, for Natal. Beyond the E3 concept video there's been practically no talk on the subject.

My guess is they will show a wide range of use cases to illustrate its useful to core gamers and casual gamers, props or no props.

Personally, I think augmented reality or a virtual playground is a feasible way to differentiate from Wiimote style gaming. Even for PS Move which is seen as a more refined Wiimote+, the seamless integration of detailed VR environment, and shared online space (because you know the absolute position of the players involved) can convey a different feel altogether. If done well, the total environment should be more useful, immersive and pleasant to use.

I'd love to use my XMB in the hills of Flower. :-P

EDIT:
For the record, I also want:

* Clap hands to light up PS Move (coz we misplace remotes all the time because of the kid). Useful for brown out/black out too. We had 2 of these in Palo Alto last month. :roll: Doesn't work in power outage because mic is hooked up to PS3. Unless they have button combo to turn on light for self-test. ^_^

* Make walking totally optional in PS Home because now I can use the controller or gestures to fetch/activate far away items. This should make that place even more usable.

In fact, I'd downplay the name "PS Move". It's just a name for the motion controller hardware. The overall experience Sony is selling should be more than that. They should come up with a different name for this experience. It is very important for them to add all those AI recognitions, controller-free gesture work, user generated content, Playstation Network value-added services to this final experience. They need to roll up as a whole.

Shifty Geezer

24-Mar-2010, 17:59

That seems highly unlikely. For full body capture, perhaps, because you need the whole skeleton to be in view to get a lock (which is actually a consideration for gaming environment). However the mechanics of the camera should work like any camera, and function to a near distance. This is what finger tracking would need in that finger fighter game. Does anyone know if they got beyond a drawing-board concept to a working prototype with that?

patsu

24-Mar-2010, 18:13

I believe 2-3 meters is where most of the action takes place (No hard data though :-P). Many families still have mid-sized SDTV, which is smaller than HDTV. By hook or by crook, the marketing folks will force the engineers to make it happen. I would ! :twisted:

Arwin

24-Mar-2010, 19:09

Danalys

24-Mar-2010, 19:30

I figure it's easier to recognising whole bodies rather than partial bodies to apply a skeleton to. Once it's got the persons skeleton sorted it can track individual parts and expects parts out of view to come into view when they would.

Took some room even for Eyetoy games.

patsu

24-Mar-2010, 20:12

Mind you, I may probably run into some trouble playing the table tennis game with the PS Move currently as well, as for some bits of table tennis you need to move away from the table a fair bit at times. ;)

If it works like Wii's Table Tennis, the game will approximate the lower body movement for you. You are unlikely to miss a ball because of position. You need to keep your bat up to be ready though, otherwise the avatar seems to lag before he dashes to the ball.

I played the game in Fry's without moving at all (standing 3 feet or 1 meter away). The screen was 20" or something.

Took some room even for Eyetoy games.

... for the body flailing game because you fling your limbs around. For other games, 2 meters (6-7 feet) works fine. Heck, the Eye of Judgment stand is only 1.x feet tall. The camera looks down into the play mat.

EDIT:
Also we can see that so far all the demoes would first capture your full body to take into account your size and dimensions. Once that has been done, you can move very close to the camera and it will still track you correctly.

If so, they can store your profile once and for all, including facial data for recognition purposes.

If the base technology can estimate hidden body parts, perhaps they can do so for out of bound body parts too.

scently

25-Mar-2010, 01:16

They never sent mixed messages. Natal is an accessory. Its main aim is to provide controller free gaming. But it can be used to COMPLEMENT other games which does not used full body tracking, you know like head tracking for instance. Damn I am repeating myself. I think I will stop now and if you still don't want to see the point then there is no use trying to explain it.
There is nothing wrong with liking the PSmove, actually if I find a compelling reason to buy it, I will, actually I most likely will. But what I don't get is the need to discredit, downplay or try to twist the message MSFT is sending with the Natal.
Also I think this needs to be said, The success or failure of Natal has absolutely nothing to do with those who post in forums, it is first and foremost (at least from MSFT development point of view) a product targeted at the casual or non gamers.

ShadowRunner

25-Mar-2010, 01:26

Natal will work in rooms of all sizes, obviously:

Microsoft was quick to issue a statement denying what TechFlash had reported, telling Kotaku, "The comments recently about the play space for Project Natal were misinterpreted. It is true that the Project Natal sensor reads the configuration of your room and adjusts play space, as appropriate. We know that living rooms come in all shapes and sizes, and have conducted numerous play tests to ensure everyone will be able to jump off the couch and into the fun when Project Natal launches globally this holiday."

patsu

25-Mar-2010, 02:04

They never sent mixed messages. Natal is an accessory. Its main aim is to provide controller free gaming. But it can be used to COMPLEMENT other games which does not used full body tracking, you know like head tracking.

Then why in the world did you complain when people talk about using additional accessories to complement Natal ? The 360 controller complements Natal and vice versa. They admitted that finger tracking is not considered for various reasons anyway. So a glove can complement it too, just like EA wants to use vitality sensors with Natal.

If you read further up, there are people who are confused about whether adding a controller would make sense for Natal. MS's tagline is at odds with the situation where you need a controller to complete the experience.

As for casual audience focus, I agree it's critical for MS to go after big N.

AzBat

25-Mar-2010, 02:47

patsu

25-Mar-2010, 03:12

The two-finger hero project did it for 12 days, according to here:
http://www.gamesetwatch.com/2010/01/arkedos_cancelled_natal_projec.php

The company posted mocked-up screenshots and an excerpt from its design document, explaining that it worked on the game for only 12 days before ditching it and moving onto other titles.

EDIT:
Ah, also forgot Pachter's tips on some company contracted to do finger tracking UI.

patsu

25-Mar-2010, 05:36

Video interview with Anton after the Engadget Show:
http://www.sonyinsider.com/2010/03/24/engadget-takes-on-the-playstation-move/

Apparently the PS2 Eyetoy consumed aproximately 25% of the consoles power right off the top, making it more difficult to present this as viable option to developers,

Dr. Marks commented on the latency delay of 22 ms that was seen on screen. He added things such as television delay and display delay are things that are out of their control. Anton later added that what we are looking at now is just raw output before any filters or tweaks have been applied.

Given the tech demo centric approach, it looks like Sony is only interested in the gamers and tech folks. So far, not much on targeting casuals. Even the Augmented Reality stuff I mentioned above are pretty generic/basic. A marketer would have identified the target audience (toy folks, female, kids, educators, media folks) and gone after them with trial content package.

AzBat

25-Mar-2010, 06:15

The two-finger hero project did it for 12 days, according to here:
http://www.gamesetwatch.com/2010/01/arkedos_cancelled_natal_projec.php

According to Arkedo at NeoGaf(the source of your article), they never did any code during those 12 days. Just put together some bullshots & design document. BTW, it was a direct response to my suggestion that their non-Arkedo Series project was actually a Natal project they mentioned before. Their response was it wasn't, thus the bean spilling on what the Natal project actually was.

The Natal project never saw light (even though our little concept document was discussed by two big publishers, but the deal eventually fell flat in the end. The Natal SDK and hardware changed quite a bit down the road, and I guess we were not relevant with Natal final design, as the game was quite demanding on one of the specs which got apparently toned-down). No, I cannot discuss this any further, go away. Please.

This project was something we did while waiting for our former publisher to pay for our first milestone for Big Bang Mini for the Wii (we were halfways; he never did = we are suing). Then, after we did the Natal project doc, we decided to start the Series.

<snip>

Don't expect too much, though: from the time we started thinking about it, to the time we made the little 8-page design document, there was only 10/12 days of work for just one (talented) guy: Aurélien, the co-founder and artistic director for Arkedo.

<snip>

As promised, please find some bullshots and a small excerpt from our design document for our -now dead- Natal project. Please remember that we could only allow ourselves to work 12 days on this, so it's very far from being polished stuff. The screenshots are bullshit of course, but they respect the technical limitations, and also were designed so they could fit in with our tools. So they are semi-bullshots.

Tommy McClain

patsu

25-Mar-2010, 07:09

Interesting, what did he do within those 12 days besides the artwork ?

there was only 10/12 days of work for just one (talented) guy: Aurélien, the co-founder and artistic director for Arkedo.

We know it's possible to do hand gesture (involving fingers) with some depth camera though. MS will dabble in it sooner or later.

Nesh

25-Mar-2010, 09:45

The two-finger hero project did it for 12 days, according to here:
http://www.gamesetwatch.com/2010/01/arkedos_cancelled_natal_projec.php

EDIT:
Ah, also forgot Pachter's tips on some company contracted to do finger tracking UI.

perhaps you had to have the camera near your hand though to make this work

Brad Grenz

25-Mar-2010, 10:30

perhaps you had to have the camera near your hand though to make this work

Yeah, I'm sure it's totally doable if you stand six inches from the screen and dangle your fingers in front of the camera. It was always my sense they only worked on the idea until they found out the actual hardware wasn't up to it. Which is why it's funny when people cite the game as proof on the Natal's finger tracking capabilities.

(((interference)))

25-Mar-2010, 10:52

...t it can be used to COMPLEMENT other games which does not used full body tracking, you know like head tracking for instance.

I forgot about this, another thing that makes Natal versatile.

You can have a traditional controller interface while using Natal for the occasional gesture/voice recognition enabled control.

We would've seen a lot more of these types of games if not for the performance overhead Natal costs now (wheras before the processing was done on the Natal chip).

scently

25-Mar-2010, 13:02

I forgot about this, another thing that makes Natal versatile.

You can have a traditional controller interface while using Natal for the occasional gesture/voice recognition enabled control.

We would've seen a lot more of these types of games if not for the performance overhead Natal costs now (wheras before the processing was done on the Natal chip).
Yeah, but you will definitely see it in forza, they are hiring for a Natal position, so I think its for headtracking. At least that's my guess.

patsu

25-Mar-2010, 16:15

perhaps you had to have the camera near your hand though to make this work

Perhaps, but Natal is a long term project like PS Eye and Wiimote. They will add better hardware to deal with it. In the mean time, someone in the labs should be working on it already. IMHO, reliable finger tracking adds a lot to the experience.

EDIT: It is entirely possible to leap ahead like what Nintendo did with 3DS. Or at least give a glimpse/demo of the future to gamers.

patsu

25-Mar-2010, 16:19

http://www.siliconera.com/2010/03/24/these-schematics-are-from-sonys-tony-hawk-ride-board/

Sony was, possibly still is, working on a skateboard controller of their own. We found a device similar to Activision’s Tony Hawk Ride controller in a patent application filed by Sony Computer Entertainment.

What makes Sony’s controller different is it rotates. You attach a skateboard-like controller with buttons (fig. 2) to a plastic base (figs. 3 & 4), which allows players to tilt the board. An complete set up is shown in figure 8 on top.

Reminds me of a surf board rather than a skate board.

Arwin

25-Mar-2010, 19:01

Yeah, but you will definitely see it in forza, they are hiring for a Natal position, so I think its for headtracking. At least that's my guess.

A cynic could suggest that this feature was pretty much locked in as soon as another game company announced a similar feature. ;) The reality though is that this is pretty much an obvious feature for racing sims especially with a cockpit view in place. Adding 3D tech to that is going to really be a big step for the genre. Some people may be skeptic, but the day they try it I expect that to be over instantly.

patsu

25-Mar-2010, 19:10

Personally, I think 3D vision is more compelling than "head tracking" vision. :)

We are bornt with 3D perception. If people are able to get past the 3D glasses, *and* the games trigger our hunter instinct and competitive spirit, the critical fighting moments and realistic death animations that follow will mersmerize a whole village of (core) gamers.

We may never look back.

Now, we are waiting for the vendors to grapple with their accounting department and R&D people.

patsu

25-Mar-2010, 20:40

Here's a more technical look at PS Move, plus some short game impressions:
http://www.pixelenemy.com/2010/03/move-over-natal-sony-wants-to-play/

Answered some of my earlier questions...

First, the USB connection limits the real-time capture abilities meaning there’s no way around at least a small input lag. I spoke with Senior Developer, Anton Mikhailov, at the Sony Move Meet-up event who said that they have tested out the PlayStation Eye on PC LCD monitors with about 22 millisecond lag time, which is comparable to the 16 milliseconds of lag you experience while using a Dualshock 3 Controller.
...

The next thing that would cause lag is the player’s TV. Due to variances in television technology some users may inevitably experience more lag than others. While most modern LCD, Plasma, and LED sets have this problem licked, there are some that will still suffer unnecessarily. Luckily, there’s a calibration tool at your disposal that will alleviate some of this pain through software compensation.

Finally the last thing that would cause lag is the developer. Yes the developer. The sensitivity of the controller can be turned up or down on the software side of things. Richard Marks, Senior Producer on PlayStation Move, showed me an example where the sensitivity of the device was turned down therefore there was a noticeable lag in my movements t. Then he cranked it back up to normal and everything became one-to-one again.

For example if you place the Move controller behind your back like you were holstering a sword, the camera would remember the last known position of the ball for approximately 5 seconds. Presenting the orb to the camera naturally unsheathes your blade. The controller itself feels substantial. Its made of a soft plastic, has some weight to it, and the orb is extremely fun just to smush (trust me on that one). My only complaint that there’s no analog control stick to be found when it seems that one would broaden the controller’s potential applications.

Mikhailov explained that the reason that there isn’t an analog stick on the controller is because when you are moving your arms around in 3-D space its very hard for your brain to also move your character around in 3-D space at the same time. He also said that while it was possible to have an analog stick on the controller (and they have indeed tested it), they do have to cater to the casual and hardcore audiences simultaneously; the presence of the stick will intimidate many of the casual players. He then elaborated about moving without having some sort of movement input. He said that you could hold down both triggers on the controllers which would cause your character to move forward. Then by just moving your body the character on screen would turn, look, or move in that direction. For those of you who might be skeptical of this control scheme, the Move also has the equivalent of a wireless Wii Nunchuk that works alongside the Move controller.

Sounds like Heavy Rain's control scheme

patsu

25-Mar-2010, 20:45

This one (argh) is more diabolic:
http://www.n4g.com/News-497462.aspx

Gives me serious headache, but the good thing is he keeps pestering Anton for tips and leaks (e.g., PS Home integration).

In the demo, I think Anton showed a running video on a warped window/layer.

Still all (tech) talks, and no sign of going after new audience yet.

Arwin

25-Mar-2010, 22:46

Yo, this is gangsta man. Gaaaaaangsta!
:lol:

There's definitely some sign of ideas that we could see in current games though, like showing how boxing could work from the puppeteer demo.

patsu

26-Mar-2010, 01:14

:)

I didn't know they had a PS Move Hands-on at East Coast. You can see the show goers' impressions in GAF:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=391050

The Sports Champion (Gladiator Arena) game sounds promising.

This was my favorite game there. Holding two move's (there's an option to play with only one), one hand controlled a hammer and the other hand controlled the shield. I was honestly expecting something along the lines of Wii Boxing where there was input lag and throwing your hands like a maniac caused the game to not register any hits. This wasn't the case, there was 1:1 movement mirrored by the hammer and shield. Attacking in either direction had your weapon going that way.

Some guys went a little nuts (spinning, etc.) and sometimes actually managed to pull of moves but for the most part, acting like a maniac and not actually swinging the weapon towards the opponent lead to a defeat.

I'd like to try the Ping Pong game too, just to see how it compares to WiiSports Resort.

eastmen

26-Mar-2010, 03:20

http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/817651900_UPD5c-L.jpg

penny arcade's take on the move has me cracking up for some reason. I think its the last page !

LightHeaven

26-Mar-2010, 05:02

Sooooo... i was watching some old natal videos and noticed something on the splash demo they showed at E3:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qu8_fJzN2Ik

There's definitely pointing at the screen in that demo, you can see a marker going around were his arms are pointing at the canvas...

But, didn't Kudo said that this kinda of pointing (by projecting the arms direction at the screen for instance) wasn't possible?

I don't think it would be super accurate, but this demo is doing something it wasn't supposed to XD

NeoTechni

26-Mar-2010, 05:27

While not accurate, they can fake with a simple old lightgun-style calibration.

Same for Move, and Wii.

It'd be even better if they'd have you enter the size of your display and position of camera in the system's menu.

grandmaster

26-Mar-2010, 08:08

NeoTechni

26-Mar-2010, 08:21

Silent_Buddha

26-Mar-2010, 08:38

Regarding Move, it might not be original but its a definitive improvement over the Wiimote and has a lot more potential applications. Save for privacy reasons i dont understand why Nintendo choose to do an "inverse" kind of tracking with the camera.

The Wiimote style with camera in the controller is far superior in some ways. It doesn't require players to stay in the camera's FOV for instance. So you can easily have 4 people flailing around without having to make sure they stay in the FOV of the camera.

On the flip side it does have drawbacks, as you obviously won't be able to do any head tracking for instance. But for 4 player active party games, it's by far the superior method of input.

Both Sony and MS on the other hand need to require players to stay within a limited area.

Regards,
SB

NeoTechni

26-Mar-2010, 08:41

Well Wii requires the sensor bar to be withing the FOV of the wiimote for it's absolute positioning to work.

Move just reverses that, allowing it to work at more angles.

Both have their flaws

Silent_Buddha

26-Mar-2010, 08:57

Altho more resource hungry, which could make a big difference WRT implementation and takeup.

Move will also be resource hungry, requiring 1 SPE to be reserved for it's use. Isn't 1 SPE already reserved for the gameOS? Sony also hasn't mentioned how much memory will need to be reserved for Move.

So it could well end up at 15% or more of total system resources similar to Natal.

Regards,
SB

Silent_Buddha

26-Mar-2010, 09:11

A cynic could suggest that this feature was pretty much locked in as soon as another game company announced a similar feature. ;) The reality though is that this is pretty much an obvious feature for racing sims especially with a cockpit view in place. Adding 3D tech to that is going to really be a big step for the genre. Some people may be skeptic, but the day they try it I expect that to be over instantly.

Have been trying various 3D systems since around 1996, and while initially impressive, there's been nothing to move it beyond a short novelty.

I'm not expecting things to change there until there's a system that requires no addtional hardware (that also works with large viewing angles, without glitching) other than the display and machine. IE - no glasses etc.

As well any system used will have to accurately take into acount the distance between a person's iris' otherwise, the subtle difference between simulated 3D and actual real world stereo vision produces sometimes significant eyestrain with prolonged useage.

Anyway, color me totally unimpressed with any of the showings I've recently seen. One of the most impressive systems I've used was well over a decade ago, and used a system with LCD's reflected off mirrors in a head mounted display to simulate an 80" diagonal screen X meters away. It actually did relatively well in reducing eyestrain compared to other head mounted displays and shutter glasses at the time.

Regards,
SB

NeoTechni

26-Mar-2010, 09:11

Sony also hasn't mentioned how much memory will need to be reserved for Move.

Yes they have

http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/13/playstation-move-requires-only-2mb-of-ram-developers-breath-sig/

Quizzing Sony's David Coombes, they found out that the advanced image processing required to make sense of your wild, flailing movements will take only 1-2 MB of RAM.

Given they've been able to retroactively add Move support to games that already used all the SPUs they had access to, I'd imagine Move runs on the one that was already reserved.

SOCOM seems to support that theory, I doubt they'd take an SPU from such a complex game

As well any system used will have to accurately take into acount the distance between a person's iris' otherwise

I've heard a few devs say they just use 6.5 cm as the difference

Arwin

26-Mar-2010, 09:40

Yes they have

http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/13/playstation-move-requires-only-2mb-of-ram-developers-breath-sig/

Given they've been able to retroactively add Move support to games that already used all the SPUs they had access to, I'd imagine Move runs on the one that was already reserved.

That does seem quite likely.

SOCOM seems to support that theory, I doubt they'd take an SPU from such a complex game

Killzone 2 had an average load of 60% on the SPEs. Even if the Move required games to surrender some SPE power, I don't think there are many games that don't have 15% of SPE power to spare.

I've heard a few devs say they just use 6.5 cm as the difference

Currently, about 1 in 5 people have trouble watching 3D. That the 6.5 cm setting is not appropriate for them is one of the factors there. For games it's probably going to be quite easy to allow calibration, since the two views are dynamically rendered already anyway - you just adjust the camera positions slightly closer to each other or wider.

patsu

26-Mar-2010, 10:47

The Wiimote style with camera in the controller is far superior in some ways. It doesn't require players to stay in the camera's FOV for instance. So you can easily have 4 people flailing around without having to make sure they stay in the FOV of the camera.

On the flip side it does have drawbacks, as you obviously won't be able to do any head tracking for instance. But for 4 player active party games, it's by far the superior method of input.

Both Sony and MS on the other hand need to require players to stay within a limited area.

They have slightly different use case.

Wii requires the Wiimote to remain pointed at the sensor bar. If you point the Wiimote "out of screen" for too long, it will complain. It also requires more frequent recalibration (masqueraded as "Do you want to take a rest now ?" in WiiSuports Resort).

PS Move allows you to swing your stick freely. You can point it at any direction. It will only complain if the bulb is obscured for more than 5 seconds.

PS Move can support up to 4 Move controllers. If you use a subcontroller, then you're limited to 2 Move controllers + 2 subcontrollers. As you said, Wii does have a wider playing angle.

Move will also be resource hungry, requiring 1 SPE to be reserved for it's use. Isn't 1 SPE already reserved for the gameOS? Sony also hasn't mentioned how much memory will need to be reserved for Move.

So it could well end up at 15% or more of total system resources similar to Natal.

In the interviews, Anton mentioned that PS Move uses very little resources.

Although 1 SPU is reserved for PS Move, I don't think it'd be fully utilized for tracking the light bulb and controller orientation. The latter is similar to SIXAXIS tracking, whereas the former should be very suitable for vector math.

However, PS Move's scope also includes controller-free gaming (e.g., head tracking, facial recognition). More of the SPU would be used in these complex use cases. I remember Dr. Marks had a prototype image processing library that runs on only 1 SPU.

Nesh

26-Mar-2010, 12:24

http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/817651900_UPD5c-L.jpg

penny arcade's take on the move has me cracking up for some reason. I think its the last page !

I am not sure if I got the last part with the owl :smile:

Can you explain? :razz:

Is it because it looks so much like a lolipop that you cant notice that it is holding the controller as a lolipop?

goonergaz

26-Mar-2010, 12:37

In the interviews, Anton mentioned that PS Move uses very little resources.

Although 1 SPU is reserved for PS Move, I don't think it'd be fully utilized for tracking the light bulb and controller orientation. The latter is similar to SIXAXIS tracking, whereas the former should be very suitable for vector math.

However, PS Move's scope also includes controller-free gaming (e.g., head tracking, facial recognition). More of the SPU would be used in these complex use cases. I remember Dr. Marks had a prototype image processing library that runs on only 1 SPU.

Indeed, very few games max out the SPUs, so IMHO we're likely to see no drop in quality with Move support (Socom being a great example). If devs are clever they will stick to adding value rather than noise.

Gradthrawn

26-Mar-2010, 14:59

I am not sure if I got the last part with the owl :smile:

Can you explain? :razz:

Is it because it looks so much like a lolipop that you cant notice that it is holding the controller as a lolipop?

You dang yougins, no sense of history. :razz: It's the owl from the old Tootsie Pop commercials. "How many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop? Lets ask Owl." They knew how to make commercials back then. :lol:

Nesh

26-Mar-2010, 15:08

You dang yougins, no sense of history. :razz: It's the owl from the old Tootsie Pop commercials. "How many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop? Lets ask Owl." They knew how to make commercials back then. :lol:

oh :lol::lol::lol::lol:

LightHeaven

26-Mar-2010, 16:20

There's a big difference between pointing at the screen and having that trajectory mapped to a point on the display, and having a pointer on-screen which is controlled by arm gestures.

Very true, but, except when his arms exceeds the canvas, it feels like its tracking his arm direction, not just moving the pointer in the direction his arm moved... It feels like a pointer, the very few times on the video when he points in the center of the canvas with a slower speed than the needed to throw the paint, the pointer seems a projection from where the avatar is pointing.

Do you know if Ms allowed anyone to test this demo too?

_phil_

26-Mar-2010, 16:38

If we have to believe the (very small ) 3d avatar in the screen space, it's obviuous it's just tracking direction.

Danalys

26-Mar-2010, 16:42

It's a bit irrelevant anyway as holding your arm out will only get you a minute or two of gameplay before it gets tired.

patsu

26-Mar-2010, 17:03

:lol: Kotaku maximizing mileage from Dr. Marks:
http://kotaku.com/5502008/the-possibilities-surprises-and-limits-of-playstations-move-according-to-the-inventor

I didn't explain Wiimote and PS Move controller tracking differences well enough. Here's Dr, Mark's attempt. I suspect most people won't get/appreciate it until they use it for real, and there is a compelling use case:

One of Sony's most aggressively expressed talking points about the Move is that it detects movement in the Z-plane — the plane that defines a player's distance from the vertical slice of air defined by the front of his or her TV better than any other motion controller, including the Wii Remote. The Remote, when pointed at a TV and moved forward and back, can be used to determine its range in the Z-plane, but Marks emphasized the Move's ability to be detected in the Z-plane at all times and with 60-frames-per-second precision based on the Eye's detection of the position and relative size of the Move's sphere.

"When you want the absolute best tracking, you have to have the absolute best position tracking, which is the camera for us," he said. If the sphere is ever obstructed, like when a player might through their hand back while holding a Move, the controller's motion sensors kick in to approximate the position of the Move, a technique that is similar to what can be accomplished with the Wii Remote's add-on, the MotionPlus.

But what's the big deal with detecting movement in the z-plane, with detecting more than just movement of a wand controller up and down (y-plane) or side to side (x-plane)?

The answer was partially provided in Marks' latest Minority-Report-style Move demo, which he would refer to throughout our conversation.

"You can punch in Z," Marks said."The Wii does that and we do it too. But what we were just doing while I was moving the camera around and flying, the only way to do that is Z."

And what of games? "If you want to place something in the 3D world; if you want to reach into the 3D world and manipulate. .. maybe I can grab things. (Fellow Move researcher) Anton Mikhailov wants to make a game where there's things like eggs that you have to pick up softly and other things you have to pick up with ammo triggered to them. I want to make a game where I'm a Greek god and I have to smash these little evil guys and the good guys I have to pick up carefully and safely.

"Reaching into the world like that, there's no way to do that if it's (only) 2D."

Essentially, when we want to track the Z distance, Wiimote must be pointing at the sensor bar whereas with PS Move, you can hold the controller anyway you want as long as the bulb is visible.

patsu

26-Mar-2010, 17:08

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.joystiq.com/media/2010/03/img6648-3102010-3.jpg

What the heck is that 2nd connector called EXT?

Same article above:

"I think there's a lot of options with having this thing being part of another peripherel, with something bigger that you would hold" Marks said, with Move in hand. "We've had a lot of talks with our licensees abotu what would make sense for this... We do have this USB cord [at the base of the wand] which is how you charge it. We also have this external port which is proporetary. Our licensees can talk to us about it." I asked what Sony uses it for. "We don't use it right now for anything, but it has data and power, I guess I can say that much."

EDIT:
I was thinking about the analog trigger too:

As I typically do, I concluded my interview with Marks by asking if there was anything key he thought we didn't cover. It turnes out the Move has an unheralded feature that he believes could be a big deal: the analog trigger on its underbelly. As opposed to the Wii's similarly-positioned digital trigger, the Move's "t-button" is sensisitive to the same gradual pull as the analog triggers on the shoulders of traditional modern game controllers. "I still think that people underestimate the importance of this kind of controller where you're doing something and you squeeze," Marks said.

... and the light ball ! Don't ignore the light ball (Well, it kinda stick out like a sore thumb for some gamers).

No press talks about how Sony can combine both camera-based, AI and sensor-based tracking together. The puppetry demo is just one example. I am sure more can be done in this area. We don't really care whether there's a controller or not, but if the technologies are applied together, I think it will elevate the experience. e.g., Handwriting recognition for Scribblenaut PS3.

The controller is also good for sending XMB message to friends, just sending my hand-written/drawn note is enough to make a point. The computer doesn't need to recognize/transcribe it. There will be lot's of smilies and leet speak anyway. :)

Danalys

26-Mar-2010, 17:51

NeoTechni

26-Mar-2010, 18:38

Currently, about 1 in 5 people have trouble watching 3D. That the 6.5 cm setting is not appropriate for them is one of the factors there. For games it's probably going to be quite easy to allow calibration, since the two views are dynamically rendered already anyway - you just adjust the camera positions slightly closer to each other or wider.

They could do that easily by adding a setting to your profile, along with the size of your TV, position of the camera.

While few games max out the SPUs, I'd imagine a lot of them still use all of them

LightHeaven

26-Mar-2010, 18:41

It's a bit irrelevant anyway as holding your arm out will only get you a minute or two of gameplay before it gets tired.

Actually i'm more curious on non-gameplay applications for pointing on natal, like dealing with interfaces :P

For a game i believe it will be a lot better to use just an video overlay to simulate pointing (something along some Move Party demos, like the draw inside shapes one and the one which you had to cut the hair of the creature)

Shifty Geezer

26-Mar-2010, 18:43

But, didn't Kudo said that this kinda of pointing (by projecting the arms direction at the screen for instance) wasn't possible?It's certainly possible, using the forearm trajectory and mapping to a calibrated screen-space. You wouldn't have hand/finger tracking, but given the significant distance between elbow and hand, as long as both are accurately positioned, the target trajectory should be accurately derivable. That said, it's going to require excellent tracking of the joints. If the elbow position is partially/completely obscured by the forearm, there'll be an a degree of error in its placement and hence the forearm trajectory will be out. This wouldn't affect a game with an avatar-type object/arm mapped to the player's arm, but it would cause significant inaccuracies in a cursor. Still, you could derive a general target okay with substantial smoothing, good enough for a painter program or rough point-and-shoot or unit selection in an RTS.

Move just reverses that, allowing it to work at more angles.Yes, significantly! Patsu link to Mark's comment explains this in detail, but it should be readily apparent that with Move pointing 90 degrees to the side, it's z position is still tracked, whereas Wii would lose its accuracy. Wii also has quite a limited range from my experience, with 3-4 metres-ish being the threshold where it starts to lose positioning. Move is a significant improvement on movement tracking, even over Wii Motion+.

patsu

26-Mar-2010, 18:44

He should make the point that the Wii with motion plus uses acceleration to determine where it is, but measuring that way is inaccurate because they cannot detect every change in acceleration, but you can detect a position in space with the move in an absolute error free way.

Is it accurate to say:

When the user points the Wiimote+ at the sensor bar, Wii can determine the relative and exact location of the user (plus additional sensor data from the gyro and accelerometer).

When the IR camera is not used (i.e., Wiimote+ swinging wildly in Golf or Ping Ping game), then the accelerometer guesses the location of the player via incremental data. This part is inaccurate.

Also for the digital compass in PS Move, does it mean that PS3 can now do geo-location applications like iPhone now ? (e.g., Find nearest Pizza Hut in my neighbourhood). If so, the press has missed yet another major area to explore.

Actually i'm more curious on non-gameplay applications for pointing on natal, like dealing with interfaces :P

For a game i believe it will be a lot better to use just an video overlay to simulate pointing (something along some Move Party demos, like the draw inside shapes one and the one which you had to cut the hair of the creature)

You may not need detailed 3D orientation data for UI. Using PS Eye alone, I can navigate Creature Feature screens just fine by waving my hands -- or anything -- over the on screen buttons/objects. I think it's pretty cool, I hope PS Move keeps this part instead of throwing away the entire stack. In fact, I think they should refine it further.

OTOH, with all the talks about absolute positioning on PS Move, these additional data are meaningless if the games/applications don't use them effectively. In fact, it could harm the title. e.g., Walking in the "Minority Report" UI is inefficient, the absolute positioning Anton demoed there may not be useful as a general UI mechanism.

Shifty Geezer

26-Mar-2010, 18:48

When the IR camera is not used (i.e., Wiimote+ swinging wildly in Golf or Ping Ping game), then the accelerometer guesses the location of the player via incremental data. This part is inaccurate.To be annoyingly nitpicky, the accelerometer doesn't guess anything. :p It provides the acceleration data from which one can determine how much the Wiimote has moved and get a placement. This will be inaccurate to the accuracy of the accelerometer(s) and accumulated errors. A long period without any fixed-location calibration could see significant drift. This is no doubt why Wii golf/bowling have you point towards the screen before commencing your pull back, to reset the position to a known quantity prior to each reliance on the accelerometers.

patsu

26-Mar-2010, 18:51

True, true. Somebody answer my digital compass question please. ^_^

Ah, no... not GPS. Just orientation w.r.t magnetic north. :(
Brain not working correctly this morning.

Was playing with the iPhone Yelp app last night. If I can retrieve geo-location data from a cellphone, would be interesting to do a similar compass app on PS3.

Shifty Geezer

26-Mar-2010, 18:53

Also for the digital compass in PS Move, does it mean that PS3 can now do geo-location applications like iPhone now ? (e.g., Find nearest Pizza Hut in my neighbourhood). If so, the press has missed yet another major area to explore.Nope. It's no GPS system! The compass simply returns direction of the Move relative to magnetic north. It has no idea where in the world you are, only which way you are pointing - east is east whether you're in Hawaii or Alaska!

patsu

26-Mar-2010, 18:57

Yeah, I answered my own question above. :-P

With only compass data, they can at best do a Geomancy application and that's it.

Wait a minute, they can do a geography mini-game (e.g., in Life with Playstation) using the digital compass to navigate the game world.

scently

26-Mar-2010, 19:33

patsu

26-Mar-2010, 19:43

I think the problem is the vendors didn't break down the numbers. e.g., I have seen claims of 10-15% to 30% CPU usage for Natal, but doing what ? It also didn't help when they allegedly lowered the number of joints for the body flailing demo.

The same goes for PS3, but Sony said more in this area. Essentially, full body tracking will take a lot of resources (EyeToy took 25% of PS2 according to Dr. Marks), but tracking the Move controller is low/insignificant, according to the Sony duo. We also know from old slides that Dr. Marks worked on a 1 SPU image processing library for PS Eye (Not only for Move controller).

In any case, we can see the apps for ourselves. PS Eye is out for 2-3 years already. You can find natural UI and augmented reality apps in the wild today. We will also see head tracking with GT5, Move with Socom 4, later on.

When MS shows their hand, I am sure they will have big titles demonstrating Natal integration too.

I am curious whether my PS3 will blow up if I try to do PS Move and 3D vision together. I also wonder about running Torne DVR with PS Move games together.

NeoTechni

26-Mar-2010, 19:45

Shifty Geezer

26-Mar-2010, 20:29

Absolutely awesome logic and reasoning right there, totally full proof.If you really want to elevate the thread, you could try contributing your own worthwhile, reasoned opinions substantiated with quotes and references instead of just adding to the noise...

scently

26-Mar-2010, 20:50

If you really want to elevate the thread, you could try contributing your own worthwhile, reasoned opinions substantiated with quotes and references instead of just adding to the noise...

If you think I haven't been trying to do that then you should have a look at my posts in this thread. I think you should look at other posts instead of mine.
My main problem with this thread is that every information about Natal is treated with skepticism or at least it is insinuated while the move is met with hugs and kisses.
Don't get me wrong, I understand being excited about a particular product but you don't have to be critical of one in other to appreciate the other.
FYI, I do have the ps3 so its not a case of fanboyism, but as forums go, I hold B3D to a certain standard but it seems to be falling of late.:cool:

patsu

26-Mar-2010, 21:11

I think if you read more carefully, you will see negative and uncertain posts about PS Move too. The main difference is we know more about PS Move than Natal at this point. It's easy to reason about what it can or cannot do. Human generally react negatively to things they don't understand. Plus MS themselves are learning how to market Natal.

I believe people may underestimate a controller-free system. You don't need a lot of fine-grained data to do amazing things. EyeToy/PSEye didn't have 3D pointing or orientation, but it can do difficult tasks like natural interface UI, speech recognition, sketch recognition, full body tracking, head tracking, facial recognition, and more. In many cases, the sophisticated needs can be simplified (e.g., I still don't quite know how to use PS Move's absolute positioning).

I think we will see some outside-the-box ideas from MS. Without finger tracking, they can use larger grain gestures (e.g., form an X with arms). They can also partner with a 3rd party to replicate the Wiimote/PS Move experience. As usual, Natal should be more integrated and smooth than PS Move. It looks like Sony is sticking with their uneven support for PS Move. There is little or no standardization across titles.

obonicus

26-Mar-2010, 22:34

I wonder about the analog triggers: will they be sloped like the DS3's terrible triggers? Will we be able to use those Real Triggers?

bkilian

26-Mar-2010, 22:46

http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/817651900_UPD5c-L.jpg

penny arcade's take on the move has me cracking up for some reason. I think its the last page !I did not get it, until I had an american explain to me about the tootsie-pop commercials.

Didn't have tootsie-pops where I grew up.

NeoTechni

27-Mar-2010, 01:39

http://kotaku.com/5502008/the-possibilities-surprises-and-limits-of-playstations-move-according-to-the-inventor

A nice article on it. Odd Sony would choose to do it with a site that constantly demonstrates their hatred of Sony...

Brad Grenz

27-Mar-2010, 05:54

I wonder about the analog triggers: will they be sloped like the DS3's terrible triggers? Will we be able to use those Real Triggers?

You can see in the pictures. They are trigger shaped.

patsu

27-Mar-2010, 06:53

Here's a side view of PS Move:
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2010/03/psmove-side-every-1-1.jpg

You can see the analog trigger clearly.

Shifty Geezer

27-Mar-2010, 10:02

My main problem with this thread is that every information about Natal is treated with skepticism or at least it is insinuated while the move is met with hugs and kisses.It seems par for the course to me. One assumes the average poster on B3D is going to be pretty skeptical of unexplained tech, such as 3d cameras or streaming games (OnLive!) etc. At the moment we have more info on Move than Natal, meaning we can form educated opinions on what Move is capable of or not and compare it directly to Wii, whereas with Natal we're somewhat guessing, especially when we hear that the original spec has been reduced (which isn't uncommon for products).

Besides which, putting aside your sweeping generalisations about all Move comments are met with hugs and kisses, what exactly is there to hug and kiss/be skeptical of anyway? I think everyone here is in fairly vocal agreement that it'll all come down to the software anyway! Opportunities of the tech are practically worthless - see Sixaxis for an underused tech that failed to meet most of the hopes of us pre-release fans who saw all it's potential!

(((interference)))

27-Mar-2010, 10:30

Oh wow, this thread is full of awesome.
"Natal uses 10-15% of the xbox360's cpu power"
Oh it can never have impressive looking games since they max out the 360 already.
"PSMove uses one of the ps3 SPU"
Nah, its the reserve SPU.
Anyway no game uses the SPU to maximum yet.

Absolutely awesome logic and reasoning right there, totally full proof.

Actually, that's pretty much true, I doubt that any PS3 game maxes out every SPU, it's simply too hard.

The 360 is much easier to use all three cores, it's more a case of using the available power more efficiently with the 360 rather than figuring out how to tap into any unused power (as is the case with the SPUs on the PS3)

You don't see many 360 developers saying how they've only utilised x% of the 360's power.

Natal seems to definitely have a larger impact on the 360s resources than Move does on the PS3. Look at Halo Reach, Bungie played around with implementing Natal but left it out, this was most likely due to Natal's onboard processing being removed. As if Natal support cost nothing, Bungie (and MS) would likely add some cool feature that would use it, mainly to boost the Natal attach rate.

Brad Grenz

27-Mar-2010, 10:51

In addition, Move is said to run on a single SPU, but it doesn't necessarily reserve it completely, or even use a majority of the time on that SPU.

And people are rightly skeptical of Natal. I think in a lot of places, in the press and on other forums, people are far too optimistic about Natal while PS Move bears an unearnerd "Sony" stigma. Natal is the unproven technology with unproven gameplay applications and its capabilities seem to diminish every time new information comes out. On the other hand, we've had a very good idea about what PS Move's technical capabilities were from the reveal at E3 2009, and based on how it worked we could guess it didn't add a significant processing burden to the Cell CPU and probably didn't introduce appreciable input lag. Sony didn't really demonstrate any new capabilities at GDC this year, they just showed off some more cool ideas they had on how to use it.

scently

27-Mar-2010, 12:29

patsu

27-Mar-2010, 16:59

I think NaughtyDog and Bungie mentioned that if they want to create a Move/Natal game, they'd do it from scratch. Uncharted and Halo FPS are designed with the traditional controller, experience and audiences in mind.

(((interference)))

28-Mar-2010, 00:03

Can you give me a link to that please, I will be most grateful.:cool:

Apart from other rumours, there was this:

Bungie also received an early look at the "Project Natal" motion-sensing controller Microsoft is developing for the Xbox. Studio President Harold Ryan said he's enthusiastic about the device and it could be used in "Reach," another version of "Halo" expected in the fall of 2010. "I absolutely think 'Reach' could be enabled with it," he said.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2009395945_brier29.html

Why did they go from 'absolutely' seeing Reach could have some form on Natal implementation to no Natal support?
Pretty much because Natal processing was offloaded to the 360

Shifty Geezer

28-Mar-2010, 10:45

You're inferring too much. Going from a positive position to non-inclusions doesn't provide any insight into why Natal would be dropped. It could be due to different reasons, not least it just wasn't a good fit for their game, or deadlines have them putting it on the back burner. Now granted it could well be because of the processing overhead, but it's wrong to cite the studio president's statement of proof of the fact.

dragonelite

28-Mar-2010, 12:35

Apart from other rumours, there was this:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2009395945_brier29.html

Why did they go from 'absolutely' seeing Reach could have some form on Natal implementation to no Natal support?
Pretty much because Natal processing was offloaded to the 360

If they would implement natal i could see them using it for maybe theater 2.0 or forge 2.0 but not for gameplay its way to competitive. Maybe a hybrid solution for gameplay like tilt head to right to lean right or hand gestures for squad members. But no natal only gameplay.:twisted:

(((interference)))

29-Mar-2010, 01:36

If they would implement natal i could see them using it for maybe theater 2.0 or forge 2.0 but not for gameplay its way to competitive. Maybe a hybrid solution for gameplay like tilt head to right to lean right or hand gestures for squad members. But no natal only gameplay.:twisted:

Exactly, things like motion capture for use in machinima or manipulating objects using forge. Secondary features that wouldn't affect the core gameplay but would be a talking point none the less.

Really the only reasons for Bungie to not implement some sort of Natal support would be due to the processing overhead or due to lack of time.

ShadowRunner

29-Mar-2010, 01:53

Or lack of desire to use it. Take sixaxis motion controls, its not left out of most PS3 games because of processing overhead or lack of time. Just because you can use something doesnt mean they should. The game may benefit more from the development time/rescources being spent elsewere. Implementing natal in a way that Bungie feels meets their high standards is likely to take considerable effort, effort that they may not feel is worth it.

I suspect Natal not being used in reach could be more to do with Bungie becoming independant. They have little incentive to use it, its not going to sell and more coppies of their game IMO, and making natal a success is no longer their concern.

scently

29-Mar-2010, 09:52

goonergaz

29-Mar-2010, 11:46

Oh wow, this thread is full of awesome.
"Natal uses 10-15% of the xbox360's cpu power"
Oh it can never have impressive looking games since they max out the 360 already.
"PSMove uses one of the ps3 SPU"
Nah, its the reserve SPU.
Anyway no game uses the SPU to maximum yet.

Absolutely awesome logic and reasoning right there, totally full proof.

Sorry, should we PM you are posts first to ensure they meet your QC?

As already pointed out, we're speculating on the evidence (as good/bad as it may be) at hand. It doesn't help that MS seem to have overpromised on their tech and have now gone quite (other than drip-feeding the 'limitations' of the system). OTOH Sony have shown the tech working on a 'real' game and shown the tech pretty much has the potential to do everything they said it would...with minimal overhead.

WRT negativity to the Move, there's plenty - not least the digs at Sony for 'copying the Wii', back-tracking, the 'silly light bulb/lolly' and making stupid comments about the Wii!

Nesh

29-Mar-2010, 13:17

Oh wow, this thread is full of awesome.
"Natal uses 10-15% of the xbox360's cpu power"
Oh it can never have impressive looking games since they max out the 360 already.
"PSMove uses one of the ps3 SPU"
Nah, its the reserve SPU.
Anyway no game uses the SPU to maximum yet.

Absolutely awesome logic and reasoning right there, totally full proof.

I still fail to understand what is your problem.

We go by the information that we have available.

Both Move and Natal have been receiving their criticisms, speculations and the deserved positive remarks since the beginning in these forums.

You may find some things that you may not like to hear but this is how things are and what comes out of the information and concerns that we have now. Our opinions and impressions are yet to be finalized and we give it he benefit of the doubt even as such. This has nothing to do with taking sides and I dont understand why you see it that way

dragonelite

29-Mar-2010, 13:35

Exactly, Why include it if its going to be gimmicky or feel tacked on. Bungie's president said it can be used but it does not mean it should.

And i dont see natal really being implemented as a controller replacement for shooters.
What makes natal more interesting for me is what for new genres it brings to the consoles.
Still keeps finger crossed for finger tracking so that the more mouse heavy genres on pc can make a more better migration to the consoles. Like fps i had hoped that R.U.S.E would be natal compatible they showed it working on the Microsoft touch table.:roll:

scently

29-Mar-2010, 13:54

I can see a certain post of mine is clearly disrupting the flow of this thread.

patsu

29-Mar-2010, 17:45

Us too. ^_^

corduroygt

29-Mar-2010, 18:53

Seeing that SSM chose to save 5ms/frame from GPU in exchange for 20ms/frame on the SPU's in GOW3 for MLAA, it's clear that the cell is not the bottleneck. At 30-60 variable FPS, that means MLAA is using 0.6-1.2 SPU's by itself alone. SPU power is not really the issue for motion control games, the interface is.

scently

29-Mar-2010, 19:26

Us too. ^_^
Yeah.:lol::lol:
Anyway like you said, I would prefer that Naughty Dog (and any other developers for that matter) choose to create a brand new experience with these motion controllers instead of attaching it to an established game mechanics just for the hell of it.
The main reason (and only reason for now) why I am excited about Natal is not about the games they've shown but rather the ability to navigate the NXE menu without holding anything and also with your voice and facial recognition.
I do hope that by the end of E3, they (MSFT AND Sony) would have shown compelling games to warrant the purchase of their motion controllers.
To me, for these devices to be successful, they need to create genuinely new experience never had before.
I am hoping that Rare and Insomaniac can rise up to the challenge.:cool:

bkilian

29-Mar-2010, 20:50

Actually, that's pretty much true, I doubt that any PS3 game maxes out every SPU, it's simply too hard.

The 360 is much easier to use all three cores, it's more a case of using the available power more efficiently with the 360 rather than figuring out how to tap into any unused power (as is the case with the SPUs on the PS3)

You don't see many 360 developers saying how they've only utilised x% of the 360's power.

Natal seems to definitely have a larger impact on the 360s resources than Move does on the PS3. Look at Halo Reach, Bungie played around with implementing Natal but left it out, this was most likely due to Natal's onboard processing being removed. As if Natal support cost nothing, Bungie (and MS) would likely add some cool feature that would use it, mainly to boost the Natal attach rate.Actually, getting performance from either console is not a walk in the park. Due to the in-order execution and a number of other issues (cache miss cost etc), it's all about careful and intensive optimization. Just writing a piece of code in C and compiling it will not get you the best performance.

Both console makers provide some amazing tools that let you find and optimize issues. Pretty much every game released has used 100% of the 360, and yet they still get better. Just because you have code running on all CPUs all the time does not mean that you are fully utilizing the system.

patsu

29-Mar-2010, 21:15

The main reason (and only reason for now) why I am excited about Natal is not about the games they've shown but rather the ability to navigate the NXE menu without holding anything and also with your voice and facial recognition.

That's why I wrote up that long post about making XMB and Playstation Home compatible with PS Move. Especially in PS Home, that environment is a natural match for natural interface innovations. Besides navigating abstract layers and hitting buttons, you can also interact with "in-game" objects seamlessly.

I'd love to try a 3D vision XMB with dynamic themes, and PS Home too.

(((interference)))

30-Mar-2010, 03:56

Actually, getting performance from either console is not a walk in the park. Due to the in-order execution and a number of other issues (cache miss cost etc), it's all about careful and intensive optimization. Just writing a piece of code in C and compiling it will not get you the best performance.

Both console makers provide some amazing tools that let you find and optimize issues. Pretty much every game released has used 100% of the 360, and yet they still get better. Just because you have code running on all CPUs all the time does not mean that you are fully utilizing the system.

Thats what I meant, with the 360 the development centers about how to use system resources most efficiently, with the PS3 much of it is still how to extract the unused power of the Cell.

scently

31-Mar-2010, 15:28

dragonelite

31-Mar-2010, 15:40

Press release about the tech behind Natal.
http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/31/primesense-fesses-up-its-the-magic-behind-microsofts-project/

Not sure but does this mean the chip is back?

Arwin

31-Mar-2010, 15:49

Interesting post in the comments
Posted Mar 31st 2010 9:55AMNEUTRAL
I have some SHOCKING news for you: An Israeli newspaper has had this knowledge mentioned a few times since June 2009!

"The Marker", which is the high-tech and economy branch of Haaretz, has first mentioned it as "a rumor" in a June 3rd article (here: http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fit.themarker.com%2Ftmit%2Farticle%2 F6897&sl=iw&tl=en&swap=1).

Then, 9 days ago, I was amazed to discover that the site has added this as a FACT to my own article from Gadgety (http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gadgety.co.il%2F11093%2F&sl=iw&tl=en) about your hands-on with the technology: "At first, when NATAL was revealed at E3, people thought that Israeli start-up 3DV are the ones behind it. Now we can tell you that Microsoft acquired 3DV to prevent the technology from ending-up in Sony's hands, while their own product is driven by PrimeSense's chip". (full Google Translation: http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fit.themarker.com%2Ftmit%2Farticle%2 F10122&sl=iw&tl=en) Needless to say, This was their own Intel added to my post. I had no idea, but it seems like The Marker have interviewed PS's CEO Inon Brakha several times.

LightHeaven

31-Mar-2010, 16:05

Press release about the tech behind Natal.
http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/31/primesense-fesses-up-its-the-magic-behind-microsofts-project/
http://www.develop-online.net/news/34356/Revealed-the-final-chip-spec-for-Natal

So that means natal is back to being cheap even with the on board chip? (Prime Sense claimed 20-30 $ to produce their solution)

patsu

31-Mar-2010, 16:28

The article is too high level to tell. The chip offers synchronized data to 360 according to here:

Natal’s tech is now thought to be a modified version of the PS1080 chip – built by Israeli company PrimeSense and featuring a “multi-sense system” offering synchronised depth image, colour image and audio stream.

The skeleton and other high level processing may still be done on the CPU. That could be what people mean when they say MS cut the dual-chip system into half. We will get more detailed report soon enough.

Interesting post in the comments

For only 7 million ? That's cheap.

LightHeaven

31-Mar-2010, 17:05

The article is too high level to tell. The chip offers synchronized data to 360 according to here:

The skeleton and other high level processing may still be done on the CPU. That could be what people mean when they say MS cut the dual-chip system into half. We will get more detailed report soon enough.

For only 7 million ? That's cheap.

Thats true...

The wording in this: http://www.primesense.com/category/primesense_chip

Seems like the onboard chip is just a pass through, but it does say that the onboard chip "provides depth acquisition capabilities even to computationally limited host devices.", so perhaps the hard part (as far as processing go) isn't creating the skeleton, but actually acquiring the data?

But yeah, we are probably getting more info soon, hopefully the cpu overhead is minimum and the memory footprint can be reduced even more XD

Alucardx23

31-Mar-2010, 17:15

I think that natal is back to the original design and all the image processing and motion recognition is made on the natal hardware.

"The PrimeSensor Reference Design is a low-cost, plug and play, USB-powered device that can either sit on top of or next to a television screen or a monitor, or be integrated into them. The Reference Design generates realtime depth, color and audio data of the living room scene. It works in all room lighting conditions (whether in complete darkness or in a fully lit room).It does not require the user to wear or hold anything, does not require calibration and does not require computational resources from the host’s processor.

http://www.primesense.com/files/images/full_body_skeleton_580.jpg

http://www.primesense.com/category/product_technology

Shifty Geezer

31-Mar-2010, 17:30

There's no real information on the capabilities or requirements of Natal that can be gleaned from this announcement, sadly. The PrimeSense technology link of Alucardx23 states
The PrimeSense SoC contains a highly parallel computational logic designed by PrimeSense that calculates the depth value of every pixel, based on the signal from a standard CMOS sensor. In addition, the PrimeSense SoC contains interfaces for a color CMOS sensor, integrated ADCs, USB with integrated USB PHY and a controller for running the firmware, thus providing flexible and upgradable system control. NITE translates raw visual data, such as depth and color, into meaningful application commands.Thus the SoC doesn't perform any skeleton tracking; that's left for their NITE middleware, which will no doubt be replaced with MS's own middleware (otherwise they've wasted their time getting all that user data! :p).

In fact if anything, this supports the view that processing is on XB360. The original design was a two chip solution according to these reports, which would include the PS1080 for image and depth data, and the second processor for turning that data into skeletal information. The reduction by half would be the removal of the processor to derive skeletal information while keeping the essential image capture chip.

patsu

31-Mar-2010, 17:31

I think providing depth data to the host processor has always been "free". It's the skeleton processing and motion tracking algorithm that takes CPU resources.

It's a little like saying sending audio data to the host processor is "free", but it's the speech recognition that consumes CPU and memory resources.

Alucardx23

31-Mar-2010, 17:52

There's no real information on the capabilities or requirements of Natal that can be gleaned from this announcement, sadly. The PrimeSense technology link of Alucardx23 states
Thus the SoC doesn't perform any skeleton tracking; that's left for their NITE middleware, which will no doubt be replaced with MS's own middleware (otherwise they've wasted their time getting all that user data! :p).

In fact if anything, this supports the view that processing is on XB360. The original design was a two chip solution according to these reports, which would include the PS1080 for image and depth data, and the second processor for turning that data into skeletal information. The reduction by half would be the removal of the processor to derive skeletal information while keeping the essential image capture chip.

I see, too bad, but why make the announcement of the same thing then?

Alucardx23

31-Mar-2010, 17:59

Can it be that the original two chip design was now replaced by an all in one chip? So its cheaper to make. Tell me what you think.

Traditionally, gaming has been about player control agility. Gaming control has evolved over the years from the antiquated joystick to the novel Nintendo Wii remote, which uses accelerometers to capture player controls. The next step for gaming control is inevitable – full-body control with no wearable or hand-held items. Such natural interaction enables complete player immersion in the game – thus providing an unparalleled degree of freedom and creating a new gaming control paradigm.

Full-body-based gaming is based on a gaming console with a three-dimensional view of the playing grounds. While traditionally such a 3D view has been computationally expensive and therefore prohibitive to the consumer market, PrimeSense is now offering a consumer mass-market depth sensor that can provide full-body motion capturing on a significantly lower-resource host.

An interesting point of comparison between a depth-based gaming experience and a remote control based gaming experience is illustrated by a simple comparison to the Wii. The Wii remote includes two accelerometers, which can provide an accurate relational 3D location of two points along the Wii remote axis. In contrast, the PrimeSensor provides a VGA-sized depth image (640x480 pixels), where each pixel in the depth map is an independent 3D location. Comparing the two control paradigms, the PrimeSensor provides 307,200 points in space, whereas the Wii remote provides only two. The unbounded emerging gaming experience is straightforward from here.

A comparison of gaming control technologies is illustrated in the following figure. Until recently, games were controlled using a standard remote unit, which has existed for many years. The Wii introduced an accelerometer-based technology that enabled hand motion tracking. Today, PrimeSense’s low-cost depth acquisition technology enables full-body motion tracking.

http://www.primesense.com/category/gaming

patsu

31-Mar-2010, 18:05

While traditionally such a 3D view has been computationally expensive and therefore prohibitive to the consumer market, PrimeSense is now offering a consumer mass-market depth sensor that can provide full-body motion capturing on a significantly lower-resource host.

The keyword there is highlighted. Even with an EyeToy, the challenge is motion tracking and recognition, not capturing. Motion capturing is more of an input device's challenge, rather than the host processor's -- like a video camera capturing your movement.

What the host processor does with the captured data is the intensive part.

Would be best to wait for more technical reports.

Alucardx23

31-Mar-2010, 18:11

The keyword there is highlighted. Even with an EyeToy, the challenge is motion tracking and recognition, not capturing. Motion capturing is more of an input device's challenge, rather than the host processor's -- like a video camera capturing your movement.

What the host processor does with the captured data is the intensive part.

Would be best to wait for more technical reports.

PrimeSense’s low-cost depth acquisition technology enables full-body motion tracking.

http://www.primesense.com/category/gaming

patsu

31-Mar-2010, 18:13

PrimeSense’s low-cost depth acquisition technology enables full-body motion tracking.
http://www.primesense.com/category/gaming

Giving us depth info enables better tracking, but it does not mean the input device will do the tracking for us. PrimeSense's original dual-chip proposal does do all the work for us, but Natal's accessory may or may not.

It's futile to throw all those marketing material around. They don't have enough details. More technical reports please !

It would be accurate to say EyeToy enables full-body motion tracking too.

Alucardx23

31-Mar-2010, 18:16

Giving us depth info enables better tracking, but it does not mean the input device will do the tracking for us.

It's futile to throw all those marketing material around. They don't have enough details. More technical reports please !

You can say EyeToy enables full-body tracking too, and it's accurate.

The PrimeSensor is an end-to-end solution that enables a device to perceive the world in three dimensions and to translate these perceptions into a synchronized image, in the same way that humans do. The solution includes a sensor component, which observes the scene (users and their surroundings), and a perception component, or brain, which comprehends the user interaction within these surroundings.

The PrimeSensor is able to see and track user movements within the scene and provide the application layer with control widgets – a simple, clear API that translates user gestures or postures into known, deterministic application inputs. All activity is performed without any assumptions about the host, the user or the environment. No wearable equipment is required, making the solution practical, convenient, intuitive and easy to use. The sensor provides a natural interface to living-room devices (such as game consoles and set-top boxes), mobile devices and more.

PrimeSense is dedicated to bringing a novel and natural interaction solution to the mass consumer market. PrimeSense provides both a thin-host PrimeSensor depth acquisition device, as well as embedded middleware components that perform depth processing. To support a fast-growing market, PrimeSense has teamed up with depth-processing middleware partners and application providers to co develop a unique holistic solution. The benefits of this novel, collaborative API are clearly visible – enabling companies that adopt the natural interface to quickly capitalize on their investment by means of new applications, new experiences and new target audiences.

http://www.primesense.com/category/solution

patsu

31-Mar-2010, 18:18

Alucardx23

31-Mar-2010, 18:24

PrimeSensor is not Natal though. The sensor component and the perception component could be the dual-chip set up. *If* the rumors are correct, it would mean MS dropped the perception component and use 360 CPU instead.

That’s what I’m saying, the original Natal design included two chips, PrimeSense is promoting their tech as an all in one chip, but lets wait and see.

Shifty Geezer

31-Mar-2010, 18:27

In contrast, the PrimeSensor provides a VGA-sized depth image (640x480 pixels), where each pixel in the depth map is an independent 3D location. Comparing the two control paradigms, the PrimeSensor provides 307,200 points in space, whereas the Wii remote provides only two.Marketing speak goes doolally. ;) Out of those 307,200 3D points, in almost all games around about 307,000 will be irrelevant! A game only really cares for a few key points. The basis of Natal is deriving a 40ish-point skeleton from all those 3D points. And depending on the game, it may well be that only the hand positions and orientations are required, needing as much info as two positional controllers. eg. Table Tennis, your skeletal position doesn't really matter although it's nice to accurately map an avatar; all you really need if the bat position and orientation.

Of course, what the Prime Sense and MS skeleton tracking is doing is way awesome! It provides multiple 3D point tracking without needing controllers, meaning things liie head-tracking and body position can be integrated into a game. However, it shouldn't be sold on such silly figures as 'number of 3D samples.'

patsu

31-Mar-2010, 18:27

That’s what I’m saying, the original Natal design included two chips, PrimeSense is promoting their tech as an all in one chip, but lets wait and see.

Not sure where you're heading, but the PrimeSensor says nothing about skeleton processing, speech recognition, facial recognition, etc. Those are MS's licensed tech or original innovation, and will be done by the 360 CPU -- according to recent unofficial reports.

User gestures and what not can be done on the CPU based on the sensor data too.

ShadowRunner

31-Mar-2010, 18:34

Shifty Geezer

31-Mar-2010, 18:35

That’s what I’m saying, the original Natal design included two chips, PrimeSense is promoting their tech as an all in one chip, but lets wait and see.The clue's in your own links! ;) Look at the diagram on the right, and the bullet-point description of their solution :

PS1080 SoC - depth image, color image and audio acquisition engine (provided by PrimeSense) - Nothing about skeleton/point tracking
PrimeSensor Reference Design - a consumer-market low-cost three-dimensional depth acquisition device (provided by PrimeSense)
PrimeSensor NITE / Perception Middleware - a set of small-footprint embedded software libraries providing depth, color and audio processing and analysis capabilities, extracting and tracking users, gestures, features – resulting in a clear and deterministic application level API (provided by PrimeSense and Partners)
Platform - a consumer market device hardware (provided by PrimeSense Partners)
Application - a unique application that take advantage of the low computational cost depth acquisition and processing capabilities in order to bring novel user experience previously unseen (provided by PrimeSense Partners)
They provide a page about their middleware : http://www.primesense.com/category/nite_middleware

Alucardx23

31-Mar-2010, 18:35

Not sure where you're heading, but the PrimeSensor says nothing about skeleton processing, speech recognition, etc. Those are MS's licensed tech or original innovation, and will be done by the 360 CPU -- according to recent unofficial reports.

User gestures and what not can be done on the CPU based on the sensor data.

We where talking if the PrimeSensor would take care or not of motion tracking, which you where saying was the challenging part.

patsu

31-Mar-2010, 18:36

Nope. We are talking about Natal, not PrimeSensor. Why would I care about PrimeSensor ?

Alucardx23

31-Mar-2010, 18:38

Alucardx23

31-Mar-2010, 18:44

Nope. We are talking about Natal, not PrimeSensor. Why would I care about PrimeSensor ?

I suppose because Natal is based on their technology? But anyways it seems that the 360 CPU is going to do all the work.

ShadowRunner

31-Mar-2010, 18:44

Skeletal tracking is part of the PrimeSense platform, but not part of the PrimeSensor. The Skeletal tracking is done in software using the NITE middleware API which is what the skeletal tracking in natal is most likely based on. Now this could be done on the device itself if it had a processor for it, which was MS initial idea, but it is not part of the PrimeSence reference hardware design.

Alucardx23

31-Mar-2010, 19:05

MS themselves have said that the processing will be done on the CPU. Natal is based on the PrimeSense reference design, this does not mean it is the same thing. For instance the Specification of then reference design does not exactly match what we have heard of Natal.

Cost is only one reason they may have decided against an inbuilt chip for skeletal tracking. Performance may not have been up to where MS would want it, possibly only allowing them to track much fewer points for instance.

Yeah but remember that the design its still not final, I just would like to be sure if the Natal hardware that lets the 360 CPU do all the work is the final one or if the final hardware will help in some way.

This news shows that the Natal hardware will be better when it launches, but why I would like to know, I mean in what way will the final hardware will be improved, because it doesn’t seem like its just the software part that is improving.

"I did some boxing moves. I did a few little jabs and honestly it works. It picked them up. You could see my character in silhouette mimicking my moves," he said. "That's where it's going to be exciting."

Interestingly, Bradbury revealed that Microsoft had told him an improved version of the prototype is now ready.

"[Microsoft] did make a point that the next generation of prototype, which is now ready, which is not what we were using, we were using the E3 hardware. The new stuff is even more precise, the movements are more precise," he said.

http://www.videogamer.com/news/next-gen_natal_prototype_is_ready.html

scently

31-Mar-2010, 19:47

Yeah but remember that the design its still not final, I just would like to be sure if the Natal hardware that lets the 360 CPU do all the work is the final one or if the final hardware will help in some way.

This news shows that the Natal hardware will be better when it launches, but why I would like to know, I mean in what way will the final hardware will be improved, because it doesn’t seem like its just the software part that is improving.

"I did some boxing moves. I did a few little jabs and honestly it works. It picked them up. You could see my character in silhouette mimicking my moves," he said. "That's where it's going to be exciting."

Interestingly, Bradbury revealed that Microsoft had told him an improved version of the prototype is now ready.

"[Microsoft] did make a point that the next generation of prototype, which is now ready, which is not what we were using, we were using the E3 hardware. The new stuff is even more precise, the movements are more precise," he said.

http://www.videogamer.com/news/next-gen_natal_prototype_is_ready.html

Not only that, but Peter Molyneux also said that the unit used for the demos until now are not the final unit.

But as others have said, until e3, we won't know the full (and current) capabilities of Natal.

That said I think there IS a reason for this press release/ information.:wink:

ShadowRunner

31-Mar-2010, 23:30

Not only that, but Peter Molyneux also said that the unit used for the demos until now are not the final unit.

But as others have said, until e3, we won't know the full (and current) capabilities of Natal.

That said I think there IS a reason for this press release/ information.:wink:

Im not sure what you mean, what do you think is the reason for this press release/information?

Id be inclined to think its to do with PrimSense's stock value or something like that.

scently

31-Mar-2010, 23:49

Im not sure what you mean, what do you think is the reason for this press release/information?

Id be inclined to think its to do with PrimSense's stock value or something like that.
Nah, I am just speculating.

I mean it just came out of the left field. I would think that they would have waited until e3 since it was not announce during GDC or CES.

It could be as you said though, to increase PrimSense's stock value.

LightHeaven

01-Apr-2010, 00:10

That’s what I’m saying, the original Natal design included two chips, PrimeSense is promoting their tech as an all in one chip, but lets wait and see.
Did it? The PR from E3 only mentioned a single chip aswell... Unless the decision to drop the second chip is prior to E3...

LightHeaven

01-Apr-2010, 00:17

The clue's in your own links! ;) Look at the diagram on the right, and the bullet-point description of their solution :

[/LIST]They provide a page about their middleware : http://www.primesense.com/category/nite_middleware

But they do seem to imply, scrap that, they state that analyzing this data requires only a small footprint.

On some article today i saw that they demoed their tech on a very low end atom pc at gdc10, but that still does not gives an actual figure of how much processing resources this is gonna take from 360 anyway.

(But to be honest, i think this whole discussion based on processing power is a bit deceived because i believe the impact the 50 mb-ish is going to have on 360's avaiable memory is going to be far great than whatever it takes from the cpu)

AzBat

01-Apr-2010, 00:29

Dean Takahashi reaffirms that MS still has a software agreement with GestureTek for "motion-sensing games".

http://games.venturebeat.com/2010/03/31/primesense-confirms-its-motion-sensors-used-in-microsofts-project-natal/

He originally revealed the following last September...

Several 3-D camera makers have been working on making low-cost 3-D cameras. Microsoft bought 3DV Systems earlier this year, and it has also been working with PrimeSense. It wasn’t completely clear why.

At the Emerging Display Technologies conference this week, we got one answer. Frances MacDougall, chief technology officer at GestureTek, said his company was also working on Project Natal. Asked why there were so many vendors on Natal, he said that Microsoft will be using a low-cost 3-D camera from PrimeSense. But it purchased 3DV because it had a strong patent portfolio. And GestureTek itself is providing a software layer that helps interpret the data coming in from the 3-D camera and makes it useful for the game machine. Microsoft also tapped its research division for other technologies such as face recognition and voice recognition.

http://venturebeat.com/2009/09/05/how-many-vendors-does-it-take-to-make-microsofts-project-natal-game-control-system/

Tommy McClain

patsu

01-Apr-2010, 03:57

Yeah I wouldn't write off finger tracking as part of the hand gesture recognition. Should be able to decipher the 'hand motion' with or without the skeletons.

Squilliam

01-Apr-2010, 05:36

LightHeaven

01-Apr-2010, 06:05

LightHeaven

01-Apr-2010, 06:11

What difference would a higher definition camera make for Natal?

If the current camera is 640/480 x 60FPS, what difference would triple or six times the resolution make to the interface itself at the same rate at 1280 by 720 or 1920 by 1080 resolution? In this context im thinking about the next generation Natal interface in maybe 4-5 years time and what additional capabilities it may bring.

To be honest im a little disappointed in the resolution of the current camera, but I can understand why they used what is essentially a cheap as chips part.
I guess the first benefit from a higher resolution would be increased precision even far from the camera...

With a 1080p depth image, i don't think tracking fingers would be an issue, at all.

cakefoo

01-Apr-2010, 06:18

I think MS has done a fabulous job of overhyping this peripheral's capabilities, as it has gotten Natal more attention for what people hope or wish it can do, rather than for what it actually can do.

Squilliam

01-Apr-2010, 06:50

I guess the first benefit from a higher resolution would be increased precision even far from the camera...

With a 1080p depth image, i don't think tracking fingers would be an issue, at all.

So how much more would such a high definition camera cost? Also is the limitation here the camera cost or the data cable?

dragonelite

01-Apr-2010, 09:36

I think MS has done a fabulous job of overhyping this peripheral's capabilities, as it has gotten Natal more attention for what people hope or wish it can do, rather than for what it actually can do.

We don't know what it can do that's something for E3 to reveal.
I just life with this rule for hype "expect nothing and get everything".

scently

01-Apr-2010, 12:01

We don't know what it can do that's something for E3 to reveal.
I just life with this rule for hype "expect nothing and get everything".
A very sound rule if I do say so myself.

eloyc

02-Apr-2010, 12:10

Mod : Merged from separate thread.
NATAL... hm, I like the concept, I would like to try it because I'm sure it could be fun. I'm not a NATAL hater but I'm not completely satisfied when I see Microsoft presenting their new invention as something that revolutionary... Revolutionary in the method, yes, but in the results... all the time?

I know that the technology is very different from EyeToy/PSEye (that's why I post this thread out of the Console Technology section). Natal is more advanced, since it tracks skeletal movement in 3d, but, for practical purposes, what are the true advantages in comparison with EyeToy/PSEye?

I was wondering that when I was reading this thread from VGChartz:
http://vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=105768&page=1
The most of these ideas can be done (in my humble opinion) with EyeToy/PSEye, with the proper code.

Moreover, the "stellar" demonstrations in the GDC last year weren't that stellar and revolutionary for me.

So the question is: what are your ideas on what NATAL can do?

I imagine NATAL doing only a few impossible things for the EyeToy/PSEye and even in the case those few things are possible, are they convincing and practical for a gamer, for a true gameplay implementation?

I definitely don't see NATAL as revolutionary as the way Wii motion controllers were in comparison with the previous way we played.

For a more general discussion on the current generation motion controllers, please visit this previous thread in these fora:
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=54307&highlight=NATAL

Thank you for your participation.
:-)

Shifty Geezer

02-Apr-2010, 12:59

Mod : Merged from separate thread.
That VGChartz thread has lots of options that aren't possible with Eyetoy. PSEye is a bit closer thanks to advances in processing power and image recognition, and we've seen various skeletal and body tracking demos for standard 2D cameras, but even then accurate body tracking is unique to Natal. Thus you could list Natal-specific gameplay to : any object-swinging (sword/bat/racquet) that doesn't need wrist-level accuracy; tracking position/posture for health&fitness titles; leg tracking for soccer penalties and football kicks; accurate 1:1 boxing/fighting games; extended natural motion party games. Some titles could be produced in dumbed-down form on 2D cameras, so if your looking for stuff that can't be done at all on PSEye, the list may be fairly limited. The point to Natal is it's working in with depth and not having to use hacks.

As such, I see this only as a technical discussion for which there is already the motion controller thread. Given a lack of examples from yourself about 'Natal titles' that would work with PSEye, there's no real discussion point, and the thread reads as a single post about your lack of conviction for Natal, which isn't worth a thread on its own. I'll try and find somewhere to merge it with.

grandmaster

02-Apr-2010, 13:42

Yesterday I interviewed the PrimeSense CEO and VP of Business/Marketing about their technology, the hook-up with Microsoft etc. Interesting stuff - the interview will be up on DF tomorrow.

BadTB25

02-Apr-2010, 13:49

Yesterday I interviewed the PrimeSense CEO and VP of Business/Marketing about their technology, the hook-up with Microsoft etc. Interesting stuff - the interview will be up on DF tomorrow.

Look forward to reading it as usual.

corduroygt

02-Apr-2010, 16:32

What difference would a higher definition camera make for Natal?

If the current camera is 640/480 x 60FPS, what difference would triple or six times the resolution make to the interface itself at the same rate at 1280 by 720 or 1920 by 1080 resolution? In this context im thinking about the next generation Natal interface in maybe 4-5 years time and what additional capabilities it may bring.

To be honest im a little disappointed in the resolution of the current camera, but I can understand why they used what is essentially a cheap as chips part.

It would be able to differentiate between your fingers, since right now it probably only has about 40x40 resolution for each hand when you're standing 8-9 feet away from it. From that 40x40 picture it has to track 5 fingers. A higher resolution would improve this issue.

patsu

02-Apr-2010, 16:36

The PS Move hands-on in Boston:
http://www.examiner.com/x-12218-Video-Game-Examiner~y2010m3d30-Handson-PlayStation-Move-A-look-at-the-future-of-gaming?cid=edition-by-channel-rss-National-Games_and_Hobbies

Was wondering how it will feel in my hands. Also thought the []X^O butons are awkwardly placed:

When you first hold the controller, you'll instantly notice that it's very light to hold. The weight can be best compared to the launch PS3 SIXAXIS controller, so it almost feels as light as a feather and it's certainly lighter than the Wii-mote. The curvature of the controller also makes holding the controller a far more comfortable fit than the Wii-mote, and all the buttons are easily accessible.

...

To your surprise, the bulb is actually very soft and isn't hard plastic like you may expect. You can squash it, squeeze it, and smack it into objects without having to worry about it breaking or shattering.

liolio

02-Apr-2010, 16:46

The PS Move hands-on in Boston:
http://www.examiner.com/x-12218-Video-Game-Examiner~y2010m3d30-Handson-PlayStation-Move-A-look-at-the-future-of-gaming?cid=edition-by-channel-rss-National-Games_and_Hobbies (http://www.examiner.com/x-12218-Video-Game-Examiner%7Ey2010m3d30-Handson-PlayStation-Move-A-look-at-the-future-of-gaming?cid=edition-by-channel-rss-National-Games_and_Hobbies)

Was wondering how it will feel in my hands. Also thought the []X^O butons are awkwardly placed:
The last sentence is close to hilarious after all the talk about how ps move looks :lol:

patsu

02-Apr-2010, 17:29

Which last sentence ? ^_^

ShadowRunner

02-Apr-2010, 17:40

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0-4-FObaRU

Its a video from a 3d camera made by some company named Orange. Buuuuuut, that's kinda of what i was thinking about having a pointer interface with natal... Aside from some jerkiness, specially when his hand goes back to the field of view of the camera seems quite responsive and accurate.

This type of pointing is working on purely the x/y position of the users hand in relation to the camera. I think we always knew this was possible.

Shifty Geezer

02-Apr-2010, 18:04

To your surprise, the bulb is actually very soft and isn't hard plastic like you may expect. You can squash it, squeeze it, and smack it into objects without having to worry about it breaking or shattering.Very smart ergonomics. Although will it keep its shape with too much squishing?

liolio

02-Apr-2010, 19:44

Which last sentence ? ^_^
This one:
To your surprise, the bulb is actually very soft and isn't hard plastic like you may expect. You can squash it, squeeze it, and smack it into objects without having to worry about it breaking or shattering.

eloyc

02-Apr-2010, 21:22

Thus you could list Natal-specific gameplay to : any object-swinging (sword/bat/racquet) that doesn't need wrist-level accuracy; tracking position/posture for health&fitness titles; leg tracking for soccer penalties and football kicks; accurate 1:1 boxing/fighting games; extended natural motion party games.

Hi again, Mr. Shifty.

Except for "accurate 1:1 boxing/fighting games", I've seen similar things on EyeToy/PSEye (if I have time, I will edit and post some videos, maybe).

Your idea on boxing/fighting games is actually what I dreamt of with NATAL, but that will not be enjoyable with a medium/mediocre programming (I don't think NATAL produces as much shovelware as the Wii, in my opinion, however).

Developers should create a very smart code to overcome lag (is it acceptable to acknowledge lag as a... serious problem with NATAL?) and a coordination between real life and avatar animations (fall to the ground, walk, etc.)...

Boxing looks simpler to code. I don't think we will see a fighting game that could properly recognize fancy WuShu movements (I would like to be wrong, hehe).

eloyc

02-Apr-2010, 21:25

This one:
--To your surprise, the bulb is actually very soft and isn't hard plastic like you may expect. You can squash it, squeeze it, and smack it into objects without having to worry about it breaking or shattering.--

I thought that you were referring to this:
Was wondering how it will feel in my hands.

...but your clarification made it worse.

Can we move on, please? :???:

patsu

02-Apr-2010, 21:33

It would be able to differentiate between your fingers, since right now it probably only has about 40x40 resolution for each hand when you're standing 8-9 feet away from it. From that 40x40 picture it has to track 5 fingers. A higher resolution would improve this issue.

Yes, I am thinking it does not need to discern individual finger movement. The overall hand "pattern", including the fingers, would do.

Very smart ergonomics. Although will it keep its shape with too much squishing?

If it's some sort soft styrofoam material, it should be pretty resilient unless you cut it.

patsu

02-Apr-2010, 21:44

Hi again, Mr. Shifty.

Except for "accurate 1:1 boxing/fighting games", I've seen similar things on EyeToy/PSEye (if I have time, I will edit and post some videos, maybe).

Any large-grained movement should be doable. I suspect the true 1:1 mapping only comes into play for subtle movement (e.g., table tennis will benefit from sudden wrist twisting) and quick responses (e.g., multiplayer combat). They may translate into better satisfaction because of richer and intuitive interaction. If your tool reacts and lags like a boat, then the game will have to adjust its mechanics (e.g., make it "turn based"). At the end of the day, they will likely manifest as different game libraries.

EDIT:
This one:

I thought that you were referring to this:

...but your clarification made it worse.

Ah... I see. Welp, if it lights up, changes color once a second, then becomes as weightless as a SIXAXIS controller (and squishy !) let me know. I'd want a good laugh too. ;-)

LightHeaven

02-Apr-2010, 22:56

So how much more would such a high definition camera cost? Also is the limitation here the camera cost or the data cable?

I think both cost and bandwidth are the limit actually. Usb 2.0 just isn't enough for uncompressed 1080p (i don't think that it could handle even 720p, but i didn't calculate XD)... And if you put an hefty processor for real time encoding to a less demanding format the price of the camera would probably sky rocket... So no deal right now i'd guess...

This type of pointing is working on purely the x/y position of the users hand in relation to the camera. I think we always knew this was possible.

Yeah, i posted the video as an example of the kind of interface i think would be useful with an arm-projecting pointer, not to state that this is the pointing they are using :P Sorry for not making myself clear XD

I believe this would be a very nice way to control your tv from the sofa, specially if you don't have to move your hands all around XD

Shifty Geezer

02-Apr-2010, 23:08

Except for "accurate 1:1 boxing/fighting games", I've seen similar things on EyeToy/PSEye (if I have time, I will edit and post some videos, maybe).2D cameras can't track a jab straight into the screen, or a block's position as to whether the opponent can get their hand behind. Sure, you could create fighting games of a sort, but that's true of pretty much every game - you tailor it to the available resources.

Developers should create a very smart code to overcome lag (is it acceptable to acknowledge lag as a... serious problem with NATAL?) and a coordination between real life and avatar animations (fall to the ground, walk, etc.)...Well, TBH I didn't factor lag in. At the end of the day if lag is significant for Natal, it doesn't much matter how good the 3D and skeletal tracking is, the games will be seriously gimped as to what you can do.

If it's some sort soft styrofoam material, it should be pretty resilient unless you cut it.I assumed it was hollow to aid even illumination. I don't know how translucent foams get. Something like 'Nerf' is decidedly opaque. I suppose they could place the LEDs in the centre to get uniform illumination no matter what.

LightHeaven

02-Apr-2010, 23:10

Tech demos from a company called Softkinetic, they show a middleware to navigate through 3d environments and even controlling a fps (quake 2) with nothing but your body.

I don't think it's good enough to replace controllers, but some games could add the option to these type of control (on a easier mode) to make the game more accessible for casuals.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q81KdhFW-q4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8j_FZM0StM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIKwCfRnPk8

If you search on youtube for Softkinetic you will find a good array of existing games they adopted for use with 3d cameras.

I can totally see Ms relaunching some older games with natal support and dumbed difficult to have a great selection of "jump in" games ready for natal... Sure, controlling with natal would not be as good as with the controller, but the target audience would not need that anyway...

patsu

02-Apr-2010, 23:39

I think repurpose might be a better word than dumb down. Existing core games are built with the controller's characteristics in mind. They usually need quick response. So continual body movement may become tiring rather quickly. e.g., In the first video you showed, holding your hand out for extended period is not practical.

It is probably better to build new games for casuals (They'll need to adjust many stats to tone down the difficulty).

However if it is painted in the context of exercise, then it would be a perfect fit. Instead of watching informercials and soap operas while jogging, they can map their daily exercise routines into a game.

Navigating menus in a controller free manner would be very useful. I think the media player application will be a hit.

scently

03-Apr-2010, 03:24

patsu

03-Apr-2010, 07:52

Yes, I believe MS should (will ?) add HDMI CEC to the new 360 too, so you may be able to control the entire Home theater with it.

For those in Seattle who want to experienve Move:
http://blog.us.playstation.com/2010/04/02/hey-seattle-come-try-out-playstation-move/

We’ll be at Sole Repair Shop (near downtown and Seattle U) this coming Thursday evening, armed with food, drinks, and state-of-the-art motion-based gaming; that’s *months* before PlayStation Move will show up in stores, so don’t miss out on your opportunity!

eloyc

03-Apr-2010, 09:08

2D cameras can't track a jab straight into the screen, or a block's position as to whether the opponent can get their hand behind. Sure, you could create fighting games of a sort, but that's true of pretty much every game - you tailor it to the available resources.

Well, TBH I didn't factor lag in. At the end of the day if lag is significant for Natal, it doesn't much matter how good the 3D and skeletal tracking is, the games will be seriously gimped as to what you can do.

Exactly. That's why I said "except for "accurate 1:1 boxing/fighting games"" (mentioning your example).

Tech demos from a company called Softkinetic, they show a middleware to navigate through 3d environments and even controlling a fps (quake 2) with nothing but your body.

Nice find. Those videos are old but they match NATAL's purposes.

However, I agree with patsu and here we are discussing again what I said in my first post: can you do something with NATAL? Yes. Is it practical and convincing in gaming? We'll see (I'm sure some ideas are, though). Is that revolutionary? I don't think so...

patsu

03-Apr-2010, 11:48

Financial Times interviewed Peter Dille:
http://blogs.ft.com/techblog/2010/04/ps3s-time-is-now-says-sony/

With motion controllers how are you going to differentiate Move from the Wii Motion plus and Project Natal for the Xbox 360?

We’ve spent a lot of time on that over the last couple of weeks and the biggest differentiator is the technology itself - the Wii has been wildly successful but at the end of the day it’s not a very precise experience and it relies on the wand. Microsoft’s’s approach appears to be no wand, no controller, just a camera, which means that your body’s the user interface. Our solution and point of differentiation is around precision, because we’ve got the camera - the Playstation Eye - and the motion controller which has the light at the tip, and the camera tracks the light very precisely in 3D space. The combination of that precision along with the button on the controller means that you’re now able to develop and play games that you can’t do with the Wii and Natal. That level of precision gives you different types of experiences like a [first-person] shooter and we can do casual games as well. So we’ll have family-friendly games like ping pong or archery, to games for young kids likeiPet , which is a very creative game. It’s a virtual pet you nurture and it comes out to play with you on your carpet using the Eye. You can give it commands, you can pet it and it will respond, you can give it tasks, it will fly a plane. We got a tremendous response to it from retailers we showed it to at Destination PlayStation.

Hard-core gamers have looked down their nose at motion gaming: it’s not particularly satisfying for them because it’s not terribly precise or challenging, it’s more social. So we’ll have games that the whole family can play that are very social , but we’ll also be able to do hard-core gamer games via a motion device that has never been done before. It’s too early to say what the killer app or signature game is but we’ll continue through the spring and late summer before we make a decision on which game is the poster child or the best one to move the Move.

I think Peter Dille made a huge mistake.

When talking about precision and core gaming, Move's competitor is the traditional controller. It is not very useful to talk about core gaming w.r.t. Wii and Natal. Neither are proven in that area. By comparing with them, Sony achieved nothing. They need to be able to prove that Move is better than the traditional controller. Or Move enhances the traditional controller. Precision may not be a benefit when compared to DS3 (Unless it's something as good as the mouse & keyboard).

Then when competing in the natural interfaces/augmented reality space, they need to show sexy and new stuff. Precision has no place here (Perhaps it's a combination of simplicitiy/intuition, WYSIWYG, and fantasy/vision). Something like the sketch recognition would fit. They should really build on top of the EyeToy/PS Eye experiences, instead of abandon them. I have no idea why they ignored the tank demo and did the EyePet flying plane/moving car mini-game. The latter is not exciting at all since you can't do anything useful/meaningful with them. Showing Wii-like games and then say Move is more than Wii is also silly. Letting the users experience Move themselves is great, but the impact will be small.

If they can't decide what's/who's the poster child by now, they have already lost the vision and future. At this late stage, they need to know what to shoot for, and go for it. Kinda like the KZ2 trailer vs KZ2 final game. Set a vision and go. That vision should be the total package of Move + PS Eye + other sauces to provide a unique and entertaining experiences for gamers and their families.

Nesh

03-Apr-2010, 12:42

Financial Times interviewed Peter Dille:
http://blogs.ft.com/techblog/2010/04/ps3s-time-is-now-says-sony/

I think Peter Dille made a huge mistake.

When talking about precision and core gaming, Move's competitor is the traditional controller. It is not very useful to talk about core gaming w.r.t. Wii and Natal. Neither are proven in that area. By comparing with them, Sony achieved nothing. They need to be able to prove that Move is better than the traditional controller. Or Move enhances the traditional controller. Precision may not be a benefit when compared to DS3 (Unless it's something as good as the mouse & keyboard).

Then when competing in the natural interfaces/augmented reality space, they need to show sexy and new stuff. Precision has no place here (Perhaps it's a combination of simplicitiy/intuition, WYSIWYG, and fantasy/vision). Something like the sketch recognition would fit. They should really build on top of the EyeToy/PS Eye experiences, instead of abandon them. I have no idea why they ignored the tank demo and did the EyePet flying plane/moving car mini-game. The latter is not exciting at all since you can't do anything useful/meaningful with them. Showing Wii-like games and then say Move is more than Wii is also silly. Letting the users experience Move themselves is great, but the impact will be small.

If they can't decide what's/who's the poster child by now, they have already lost the vision and future. At this late stage, they need to know what to shoot for, and go for it. Kinda like the KZ2 trailer vs KZ2 final game. Set a vision and go. That vision should be the total package of Move + PS Eye + other sauces to provide a unique and entertaining experiences for gamers and their families.I dont think he made a mistake. He was clear.

He said Move is a new(ish) experience which not only can appeal to casual gamers, but to hardcore gamers as well which is (a possible) advantage over the other motion sensing solutions. Pretty logical

It is not trying to replace the standard controller anyways. They already said in an interview or two that they want to retain both experiences since they still believe that the standard method is also needed

I as a hardcore gamer I am interested to see if it can appeal to me so that I have that experience as well.

patsu

03-Apr-2010, 18:35

I dont think he made a mistake. He was clear.

He said Move is a new(ish) experience which not only can appeal to casual gamers, but to hardcore gamers as well which is (a possible) advantage over the other motion sensing solutions. Pretty logical

For outsiders, Move is not new. After looking at the videos, most will still conclude that it's Wiimote+

For hardcore gamers, the overwhelming majority are still entrenched in DS3. They didn't complain about the controller, except for the convex triggers. Talking about possible advantages and precision in Move means nothing to them. They are not going to switch for no apparent reasons. Curious people like us will try, but that's not the same as converting us.

That's why the most likely outcome is he has made a mistake.

It is not trying to replace the standard controller anyways. They already said in an interview or two that they want to retain both experiences since they still believe that the standard method is also needed

Then the new controller will have very limited impact given the current message. They didn't even talk about hardcore (DS3) + casual gamers (Move) co-op using Move. The Move demoes they show now look more like filler games for core gamers, than real casual games -- except for EyePet.

If they restrict their user experience to merely Wiimote+/Move-like motion tracking -- specifically precision -- then they are shortchanging themselves.

Elan Tedronai

03-Apr-2010, 19:18

For outsiders, Move is not new. After looking at the videos, most will still conclude that it's Wiimote+

For hardcore gamers, the overwhelming majority are still entrenched in DS3. They didn't complain about the controller, except for the convex triggers. Talking about possible advantages and precision in Move means nothing to them. They are not going to switch for no apparent reasons. Curious people like us will try, but that's not the same as converting us.

That's why the most likely outcome is he has made a mistake.

Then the new controller will have very limited impact given the current message. They didn't even talk about hardcore (DS3) + casual gamers (Move) co-op using Move. The Move demoes they show now look more like filler games for core gamers, than real casual games -- except for EyePet.

If they restrict their user experience to merely Wiimote+/Move-like motion tracking -- specifically precision -- then they are shortchanging themselves.

indeed. it's really laughable that at this stage of the game they haven't really found a software or a killer app to get behind. I mean the augmented reality stuff is easily the best thing about the whole controller. It's blatantly obvious.

And going after hardcore gamers with the move is simply short changing as you put it. They need nintendo's casual audience and the move has that potential. It's up to sony to come up with killer software that can take advantage of it.

They need to hit a homerun right away. Trying to rely on second generation software will kill any momentum when the Move launches

Graham

04-Apr-2010, 01:56

My prediction is that the existing PS3 audience will generate the bulk of Move's sales.

...

I think Peter Dille made a huge mistake.

...

After reading this, I'm still struggling to see Sony's grand plan for Move. Yes, it's an exceptionally precise controller - I have no doubt about that, and yes, it should do a better job of established Wii control schemes. However I just don't see a consistent message about why someone who doesn't own a PS3 would want to buy in.

In my opinion, shinier/more precise/more hardcore isn't what the casual audience wants. My feeling is these gamers are after new intuitive experiences, are very impulse driven and often have a short attention span.
That's how you expand your market. Last gen this meant Singstar, Buzz, etc. This generation it means Wii Fit, Wii Sports, Brain training, etc.

All credit to Sony, they love pursuing elaborate technical solutions to solve problems. However in order for these to take hold in the mass market they must to be compelling and distinctive. They have to remove layers of complexity* and they have to work seamlessly. Move nails the last one, but I'm not so sure on the first two.

*As an aside, this is the main reason why I feel traditional augmented reality is still a technology in search of a use.

wco81

04-Apr-2010, 02:02

As the Brits would say, Sony have lost the plot.

Get on with the next gen already.

patsu

04-Apr-2010, 03:00

scently

04-Apr-2010, 03:27

What !!!? :twisted: I want to see The Last Guardian, GT5 and their so-called flagship Move game this gen.

The saving grace of Sony are the studios. They are -- using Steve Job's vocabulary -- *magical* this gen.

The people who are in charge of overall PS3 package... not so much (or non-existent ?). The ads are great but the credits will go to the original marketing communications team only. Sony is probably tied down by their budget. Then again, if the vision and thought-train is off, all the budget in the whole world may go down the drain.

The execs have to be able to connect their arguments and reasoning consistently, instead of using hand waving, buzz words and piecemeal descriptions. This is the root cause of why many Sony software appear disconnected, because the thinking behind it is fragmented/fractured. I wonder if the execs eat their own dog food ?

While I cannot comment on the PSMove for now, I do think that-as bolded above- there exclusives have been totally exceptional. It is the main reason I bought the ps3.

And seriously, that is why I have hope for the Move. I look forward to seeing what Sony's first party or second party e.g Insomaniacs and Media Molecule can do with it.

Its about the software after all, not the hardware. Case in point the Wii. It is the success that it is today because of the software that nintendo's first party have been able to create with the original WM.
I mean looking at the Wii's motion controller, the need for more precision did not come about because of casual gaming, but rather for core games as the casual games design around it sold gangbusters.

joker454

04-Apr-2010, 04:02

After reading this, I'm still struggling to see Sony's grand plan for Move.

That's because they don't have one. Far earlier in this thread I mentioned how I didn't expect much from Move because Sony wasn't taking it seriously, and didn't follow up on that since I figured y'all would see what I mean soon enough. But to elaborate a touch on it, they basically have no plan/vision for Move. They have no plan to secure the casuals, no direction with which to secure proper 3rd party support beyond worthless DS3->Move ports, no long term vision with which to sell the console with, etc. They made the controller as a knee jerk reaction to Wii, limped along with it in the lab for years until Natal was revealed, and are now trying to rush it to market with no cohesive plan. It's classic Sony, another good idea that limped along for ages and then thrust upon the devs with little plan or support. The result is that they don't really seem to know what to do with it, and the devs are following suit by just porting existing games to it instead of creating new experiences for it. It's disappointing to see Sony yet again fall into this sort of pattern, but there you have it. Sometimes I think they need to fire everyone running the company and start fresh. I mean they come up with lots of good ideas, but they have no clue how to follow through with them.

obonicus

04-Apr-2010, 04:39

joker454

04-Apr-2010, 06:15

I thought you were out of game devwork. What sort of support is Sony offering devs, then?

I'm out...but doesn't mean I'm out. Gaming is a small biz, everyone knows everyone and there are few secrets. I know a whole lot about Move, too much perhaps which is why I so rarely post about it, but the state of Move is infuriating enough to where someone at the top at Sony needs a savage beating. Ok maybe that's overstating it, but the damn thing should have been out ages ago. And I mean a *really* long time ago. They just didn't know what to do with it and/or didn't feel rushed to do anything with it. I just don't get what in hell they are thinking sometimes. Instead now they have been pushed into being "reactive" by Natal, which is making them look confused because they have to rush it to market with a weak lineup of Move-i-fied DS3 games and no game plan, and they will get brutalized on price point. That is just plain wrong, and it didn't need to be this way because they had a ridiculously large head start.

Seriously, people. What different game experiences do you envisage for these game devices?

It's their business to know this and to set the direction for all to follow, not mine. That is Sony's job. They have the dollars, the think tanks, the expertise, etc. I was just a drone coder, it was never my job to conjure up entirely new interface experiences anymore than it's the job of Joe Game Player. We are the receipients of new ideas which Sony should have been pursuing. But there is a fundamental problem with Sony that has dogged them for years now where they have cool ideas then do nothing with them. Instead they leave them in half finished states, leave them in mothballs for no particular reason, or throw them at devs and say "here, figure it out". Add Move to that list. At some point they will have been kicked in the teeth enough times to figure out that that method of operation just doesn't work anymore. The way they have played it will net them few new PS3 people with Move, which in terms of developers means there is little to no incentive to support it with meaningful dollars and research.

I mean jeeze the contrast is startling. Microsoft has approached me multiple times for multiple Natal projects, and I know I'm not the only developer on this forum that has been pursued by Microsoft. They are dead serious about Natal, everything from building developer support, demonstrating new ideas, targeting new audiences, leading by example, the works. They have a game plan. Contrast this with Sony that sees Move as just another accessory. The way Microsoft is treating Natal and Sony treating Move couldn't possibly be worlds further apart. It doesn't mean that both are immune to failure, but damn I'm infinitely more likely to join a startup that is making Natal games because I'd have some confidence of securing future projects after the initial one was done, whereas with Move who knows, at this point I'd expect to have a contract for the first title, then get cut after that.

Anyway, it should never have been this way, Sony had all the time in the world to take the lead in motion controls, they were way ahead of the game in that regard, with emphasis on the word "were". At this point Move will be just another accessory, when instead it could have been a game changer. They should have already been on 3rd generation Move games by now. It's exceedingly frustrating to see this company fall into this position time and time again. I want my 1980's Sony back.

tha_con

04-Apr-2010, 06:39

That's because they don't have one. Far earlier in this thread I mentioned how I didn't expect much from Move because Sony wasn't taking it seriously, and didn't follow up on that since I figured y'all would see what I mean soon enough. But to elaborate a touch on it, they basically have no plan/vision for Move. They have no plan to secure the casuals, no direction with which to secure proper 3rd party support beyond worthless DS3->Move ports, no long term vision with which to sell the console with, etc. They made the controller as a knee jerk reaction to Wii, limped along with it in the lab for years until Natal was revealed, and are now trying to rush it to market with no cohesive plan. It's classic Sony, another good idea that limped along for ages and then thrust upon the devs with little plan or support. The result is that they don't really seem to know what to do with it, and the devs are following suit by just porting existing games to it instead of creating new experiences for it. It's disappointing to see Sony yet again fall into this sort of pattern, but there you have it. Sometimes I think they need to fire everyone running the company and start fresh. I mean they come up with lots of good ideas, but they have no clue how to follow through with them.

...smh. I'd expect nothing less from you, but really?

So you think Sony has no plan for it, even though they are clearly courting developers for support, and had a big press conference at GDC to show developers the final product? You think they have NO IDEA what they want to do?

Here's a fun fact: There is no difference between a casual and hardcore gamer. Stop feeling special about yourself. Video games do not belong to the super passionate.

To elaborate, "casual" gamers just have different tastes. Maybe they don't enjoy blowing someone's head off. A friend of mine enjoy's Mario pretty much exclusively, he doesn't really play ANY other games. Does that make him casual, even though most hardcore have championed Mario as this "core gamer" monument? He doesn't own a Wii, PS3, 360. He owns a Gamecube and a DS. He has a PS2 because he got it as a gift, and only plays the sega classics on it. I wouldn't say he's "casual". I'd say he has different tastes than you.

The fact is, gamers are gamers, plain and simple. My aunt puts just as many hours into Farmville as I do any online shooter or RPG, or puzzle game, etc. There is ZERO DIFFERENCE. Sony doesn't need to "target" the Wii audience, in fact, they need to STAY AWAY from it. What they SHOULD do, it sell the Move to CURRENT owners (which it looks like they are trying to do) so they can MAXIMIZE their sales, as people aren't likely to upgrade from a Wii to a PS3. However, PS3 owners are more likely to buy Move, and will be a considerably easier sale.

The whole "Wii Clone" software isn't really to pull Wii owners over to PS3 so much as it is to pull members of existing PS3 households into the user base, so some wife / mom / dad may get into games which could lead to increased software sales for those types of games.

I think Sony knows far more about where they are going than you do, by a long shot.

But there is a fundamental problem with Sony that has dogged them for years now where they have cool ideas then do nothing with them. Instead they leave them in half finished states, leave them in mothballs for no particular reason, or throw them at devs and say "here, figure it out".

Really? You mean like, Nintendo putting out the Nintendo Wii and telling everyone else "hey, figure this out". Because as far as I can tell, nearly every piece of Wii software, in one way or another, has been motion controls shoe-horned into some genre of game, or a clone of what Nintendo has already done, be it Wii Sports, Wii Fit, Wii Play, or Wii Sports Resort. But hey, let's not look under that big 800lb gorilla when we can easily bag on this new target of evil, right?

Fact is, developers simply weren't (and still aren't) prepared to deal with Motion Controls. Even Nintendo (I'm looking at you Smash Brothers, Mario, Zelda, etc). I'd even wager that we simply won't see Motion Controls evolve until someone does something revolutionary (so to speak) with presentation similar to Heavy Rain. They took the unpopular sixaxis technology and turned it into something really special at times with Heavy Rain, and I think that's where the real innovation in Motion Control is, bringing the gamer into the experience without making them think too hard about it. Not about playing baseball. It's going beyond the obvious, not tilting the controller to solve a puzzle, or aim some cross hairs.

patsu

04-Apr-2010, 06:45

obonicus

04-Apr-2010, 06:52

I'm out...but doesn't mean I'm out. Gaming is a small biz, everyone knows everyone and there are few secrets. I know a whole lot about Move, too much perhaps which is why I so rarely post about it, but the state of Move is infuriating enough to where someone at the top at Sony needs a savage beating. Ok maybe that's overstating it, but the damn thing should have been out ages ago. And I mean a *really* long time ago.

Why? What's so infuriating about it? Why should it have been out earlier? Are you saying because of EyeToy or for some other reason?

They just didn't know what to do with it and/or didn't feel rushed to do anything with it. I just don't get what in hell they are thinking sometimes. Instead now they have been pushed into being "reactive" by Natal,

How do you know what Sony's internal process has been on this? I realize that people talk, but I also realize that in big companies the operational levels rarely know what's really going on at an executive level -- it's usually more like a 'chinese telephone' than any real information.

which is making them look confused because they have to rush it to market with a weak lineup of Move-i-fied DS3 games and no game plan, and they will get brutalized on price point.

What is the price-point of both solutions, then?

That is just plain wrong, and it didn't need to be this way because they had a ridiculously large head start.

Again, referring to the EyeToy?

It's their business to know this and to set the direction for all to follow, not mine. That is Sony's job.

Okay, so what's the direction to follow with Natal? I know for sure that this thread is completely void of ideas that aren't terrible. I haven't seen any ideas on the internet more compelling than 'lightsaber game', and that was when the sky was the limit with Natal. What're the real applications when we start to deal with a real piece of hardware and not pie-in-the-sky company promises? It's not your job, I realize that, but you'd think that for such a revolutionary piece of hardware (or so DF tells us) at least a few ideas would trickle in. Is every good idea being snatched up by MS and venture capitalists?

This isn't to excuse Move; but 3 years of Wii have shown that we're not getting much milk from that stone, so yeah, what we'll get with Move are quick DS3 gimmicks and ports (how many times have I said that?). I'd in fact question Sony's sanity if they were expecting their higher resolution solution were to do much better than that.

They have the dollars, the think tanks, the expertise, etc. I was just a drone coder, it was never my job to conjure up entirely new interface experiences anymore than it's the job of Joe Game Player.

Well, certainly the drone coders and Joe Game Players who are excited about this must have some idea about what they're getting excited about? Or are they getting excited because they're being told to?

We are the receipients of new ideas which Sony should have been pursuing. But there is a fundamental problem with Sony that has dogged them for years now where they have cool ideas then do nothing with them. Instead they leave them in half finished states, leave them in mothballs for no particular reason, or throw them at devs and say "here, figure it out". Add Move to that list. At some point they will have been kicked in the teeth enough times to figure out that that method of operation just doesn't work anymore. The way they have played it will net them few new PS3 people with Move, which in terms of developers means there is little to no incentive to support it with meaningful dollars and research.

Except here I'm skeptical that third parties will be overly enthusiastic about supporting any of the motion controllers with research. Particularly if it doesn't come with a killer app. Third parties just don't know how to make these games. It's questionable whether anyone but Nintendo does (and I have my doubts about them, too). Especially with the sort of success we seem to be talking about; predicting it is like predicting lightning strikes.

I mean jeeze the contrast is startling. Microsoft has approached me multiple times for multiple Natal projects, and I know I'm not the only developer on this forum that has been pursued by Microsoft. They are dead serious about Natal, everything from building developer support, demonstrating new ideas, targeting new audiences, leading by example, the works.

This brings back something we heard a month or two ago, with the dev-only conference/meetup that MS held, and the allegedly terrible demo of Milo. What sort of leadership by example are we talking about? Is this something we'll see at E3, something that isn't Nintendo 'leading by example' by releasing Wii Sports and having every publisher copy it?

They have a game plan. Contrast this with Sony that sees Move as just another accessory.

Sony's 'position' waffles on this point. Sony isn't sure if it's an accessory or a platform. (Hint: it's an accessory. And so's Natal. Let's not buy into their doublespeak.)

The way Microsoft is treating Natal and Sony treating Move couldn't possibly be worlds further apart. It doesn't mean that both are immune to failure, but damn I'm infinitely more likely to join a startup that is making Natal games because I'd have some confidence of securing future projects after the initial one was done, whereas with Move who knows, at this point I'd expect to have a contract for the first title, then get cut after that.

That's reasonable; if MS is more likely to foot the bill, it's makes sense to work on exclusives. Again; we're not going to see Sony go too crazy on Move -- we might instead see shared promotional efforts, special publisher deals for 'PS3 Move' controls in games going forward. And of course, we'll probably see quickly uprezzed Wii ports/ripoffs popping up, probably on PSN.

Anyway, it should never have been this way, Sony had all the time in the world to take the lead in motion controls, they were way ahead of the game in that regard, with emphasis on the word "were". At this point Move will be just another accessory, when instead it could have been a game changer. They should have already been on 3rd generation Move games by now. It's exceedingly frustrating to see this company fall into this position time and time again. I want my 1980's Sony back.

Honestly, if Sony ever thought that a Move, post-Wii could be a game-changer, then they'd truly be idiots. Should SCE have taken its head out of its ass in, say, 2003-2004? Yes, certainly.

patsu

04-Apr-2010, 07:29

How do you know what Sony's internal process has been on this? I realize that people talk, but I also realize that in big companies the operational levels rarely know what's really going on at an executive level -- it's usually more like a 'chinese telephone' than any real information.

This is quite true. It's better to discuss what's been out there officially (like Peter Dille's interview >_<). I am pretty sure people have been surprised by Sony's various good and bad efforts over the past few years. So I don't think we can say what Sony's up to by just listening/talking to a few people "in the know". Heck, their GT5 plan changes story, and seem to confuse Polyphony themselves too.
:)

As for PS Move, obonicus, I am not asking for wizardry from them. I felt Peter Dille's interview doesn't sound right. On the whole, they _are_ shortchanging themselves. e.g., The "PS Move" concept seems to preclude previous PS Eye efforts. Using "precision" to sell Move against Wiimote+ and Natal is insufficient. Waiting for flagship games to happen at this late stage sounds very scary and haphazard. Personally, I'd downplay PS Move. They should be selling the total experience against Wii, instead of simply zero-in on the motion sensing aspect only.

EDIT:
No, they can't rely on the "PS3 Does Everything" campaign. Those are entertaining. They are superb at conveying the fun of owning a PS3, but they are bad at defining a new experience. "Everything" is not tangible.

eloyc

04-Apr-2010, 11:17

What puzzles me is Sony's lack of vision with respect to marketing.

At this point, they could be exploiting PSEye capabilities and showing them to people to "undermine" Microsoft's approach with NATAL to the audience. There are lots of actual examples showing similar things (even in the days of EyeToy). Sony could show that NATAL is not that revolutionary.

Yes, I know the differences between both technologies, I like NATAL and I know that it's able to do things impossible with a PSEye, as I previously said, but at the end, we're talking about the same: a device that recognizes (somehow) your gestures through a camera and offers an interaction based on them.

From a market/marketing/audience point of view, Sony should start working RIGHT NOW if they want to lessen NATAL's impact, and they can, even without Move, in my humble opinion.

Brad Grenz

04-Apr-2010, 11:47

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Sony's message has been pretty on point in making light of Natal's limitations. They never miss a chance to brag about the low latency and superb accuracy of their solution or to highlight how important buttons are to interacting with a simulation. All three of these areas I think are perceived weaknesses in Natal. Both the robot puppet and Minority Report demos were built specifically to counter presumed advantages of Natal. The Kevin Butler ad hits all the major points. This is not even mentioning Dr. Mark's highly publicized remarks about Sony passing on 3D cameras a long time ago due to their deficiency as an interface for games.

Besides, it's premature to close the book on the matter before E3. Neither Sony or MS have shown all their cards at this point. But I do think Sony used GDC to get a head start on their messaging. I think it's pretty clear they are positioning PS Move as something that can do Wii games better and in HD, most of the hands free stuff Natal promises and opens the door for more core-centric motion gaming not considered before due to the Wii's lack of processing power and demographics.

(Also, it would not surprise me to hear how much more active MS has been in evangelizing Natal to developers. They've got their work cut out for them getting game support for something that seems so useless for anything but Yoga games or dodgeball simulators.)

eloyc

04-Apr-2010, 11:58

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Sony's message has been pretty on point in making light of Natal's limitations. They never miss a chance to brag about the low latency and superb accuracy of their solution or to highlight how important buttons are to interacting with a simulation. All three of these areas I think are perceived weaknesses in Natal. Both the robot puppet and Minority Report demos were built specifically to counter presumed advantages of Natal. The Kevin Butler ad hits all the major points. This is not even mentioning Dr. Mark's highly publicized remarks about Sony passing on 3D cameras a long time ago due to their deficiency as an interface for games.
I agree with you. I mean that Sony should stop talking and should start showing more games and applications using the PSEye without Move.

For instance, they could do some kind of presentation summarizing EyeToy/PSEye game releases and showing more stuff, beyond technology demonstrations, things that would make people think "wow, I remember/see that with the PSEye I can also use my body without a controller". It may sound "cheesy" and it lacks precision, but I'm sure you all understood. :-P

I also agree with you that the next E3 will be the right moment for Sony and Microsoft (I honestly think that Nintendo is a bit apart, in this very aspect) to show their cards, but that's why I said that Sony should start working now.

Graham

04-Apr-2010, 12:26

Okay, so what's the direction to follow with Natal? I know for sure that this thread is completely void of ideas that aren't terrible..

That's mainly because Natal doesn't fit 'hardcore' games very well. I've said it before, but I don't see natal doing that well with existing 360 owners - and this is something Microsoft say in pretty much every interview, that Natal is designed to expand the market.

And in that sense, it explains why few people have compelling ideas. This generation, the games that are breakout hits are as far from traditional games as you can get. Wii Fit: over 20 million sales, Brain training / academy: nearly 50 million sales. Those sorts of numbers are unheard of, even compared to highly established core franchises.

And I believe if it's to be successful, it'll be the same with Natal. There is a large market out there for non-traditional games. Self improvement games are the current trend, but there is surely a much broader potential out there (relaxation games, emotional games, feel good games?). It's all provided developers realise the opportunity correctly and take a risk.

Considering the current successes in self improvement games, you can pretty easily see how they could be implemented in a more natural way with Natal (such as the obvious Yoga / fitness games). However that doesn't make a successful product.

I don't know,
How about an online social dance game? Character interaction games? Fashion & catwalk games? Makeup? Online collaberative team building style games? A game for learning English?

Often the most successful things are those that are the simplest, boiled down to their core elements: A big part of Brain training is scribbling numbers into a book.
This usually happens when you strip away the abstractions on an interface - it's something the DS has done exceptionally well. The difficult bit is refining down to that core element.

Intuitiveness of the interface is the gateway drug. It's an in-store Milo demo having a conversation with passing customers. Good game design and psychological hooks are what make the game successful in the long term.

Jerome

04-Apr-2010, 12:49

I think one of the biggest potential problems with Move is that Sony's trying to sell to the Wii market with the main selling point of improved technology and greater accuracy. The technology does look impressive, but the main values Wii's expanded audience care about are intuitive, accessible, and fun controls combined with content they enjoy. Technological superiority is not their focus at all, they just want something that has these other values and is "good enough" technically. If Sony can create unique experiences that appeal to them and aren't possible with Wii, or find a large portion of the Wii user base that are unsatisfied with Wii's technology, Move could be very successful in capturing that market. Otherwise, Sony's in for a big disappointment.

(((interference)))

04-Apr-2010, 13:11

Joker is far from the first to criticise Sony's lack of strategy or focus:
http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2010/03/how-sony-lost-its-way/#more-386052

http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/4/2009/03/IMG_2291.jpg
http://gizmodo.com/5163304/the-problem-with-sony-in-a-picture (http://gizmodo.com/5163304/the-problem-with-sony-in-a-
picture)

With Natal though, it's good to see MS is treating it seriously, but as a traditional gamer, this really scares me:

[QUOTE]Perhaps he is referring to the removal of the SoC within the camera in order to lower costs on Natal production. This has now been repurposed into a software solution within the Xbox 360's Xenon CPU. Estimates of 10 to 15 per cent of total system power have been mooted for handling the 50MB motion control libraries, while other, more pessimistic sources have indicated that an entire core (or at least one hardware thread) of the triple-core system is reserved purely for Natal./QUOTE]

50MB?! That's 10% of the 360's available game memory- that pretty much rules out any AAA titles being Natal enabled.

How the hell is Turn 10 going to manage enabling Natal in Forza 4 if it has that kind of overhead?
The game will look worse than F3, same with Fable 3 - how do they plan on including additional enhancements for Natal owners without Natals processing overheads affecting the quality of the rest of the game - even for players who'd never use Natal.