Old Discussion Thread for all 3 motion controllers

[Crossbar]

I am interested in how Sony would set up the <100 (99.99?) bundle.

Some demo'ed games need two Move controller,(ike Boxing),but the standard set could be one Move +one subcontroller only.


You got that wrong, the sub-controller will not be mandatory for any game, it´s just convenient replacement of the DS3 for certain non-casual games that has Move support.

Yoshida already said that no of the initial games will require two controllers, meaning two wand game modes will be optional. obvíously the fighting games will be pretty gimped with just one controler.

[chris100]

Thanks.Now the one move + PS eye + game bundle for less $100 price is more reasonable.

But it also means players who want the Move support on non-casual game should buy another sub-crontroller,maybe 29 or 39.The DS3+move configuration isn't feasible practically for ergonomics sake.

[Rolf N]

And the PSmove is not for core gaming. The correct configuration for core gaming is a stick on each PS move and a different configuration of button.

For the moment it has the same problem than the wiimote. You need to adapt the gameplay to the Psmote because you cannot move the camera with a stick on a FPS or TPS. The problem is less important for TPS game.

I can't imagine playing Killzone 2 or resistance or Halo on the current Playstation move.Following conventions established on the Wii, you'd move the camera by pointing your right hand and move your character with the analog stick on the left hand. It's quite an effective scheme. Analog movement and absence of pad edges makes it arguably superior to the traditional mouse+WASD setup on PCs.

[Crossbar]

But it also means players who want the Move support on non-casual game should buy another sub-crontroller,maybe 29 or 39.The DS3+move configuration isn't feasible practically for ergonomics sake.

I agree with this, if you try to hold the DS3 mid-air with the left hand and use the trigger buttons and the analog stick at the same time, that would be pretty impossible.

If you have your hand resting on your leg similar to how the Zipper guy was playing SOCOM4. I think it might work pretty well. I guess it will come down to how much you play those game modes and if you think the extra convinience will be worth the extra money.

I guess for left handed players who wants to have the Wand in their left hand, the sub-controler will be a mandatory purchase if they want to play those game modes.

[chris1515]

Following conventions established on the Wii, you'd move the camera by pointing your right hand and move your character with the analog stick on the left hand. It's quite an effective scheme. Analog movement and absence of pad edges makes it arguably superior to the traditional mouse+WASD setup on PCs.

It is not what I want to say. It is better to move the camera with a stick. And use the Psmove only for shooting.

[Shifty Geezer]

Busy thread! I like the controller designs. Look elegant (minimising stupidity of the coloured sphere)and comfortable. Reports seem pretty positive, with low lag on some titles suggestive of no intrisic faults and any laggy games are more likely issues with being primitive builds (although time's runnig out, people!). Lack of a gobsmacking killer-app is a bit of an issue.

I hope we hear about a Natal boxing game. Eurogamers review of Move's fighter says is guesture based rather than 1:1, with buttons to execute moves. Natal should manage true player tracking and give a much more realistic experience.

[obonicus]

Here is the statement from Kotaku

It can't be more sophisticated than what's in the DS3, though, can it? The DS3 has 3 accelerometers and 1 gyro, no?

[thop]

Here is the statement from Kotaku.
Seems to be a mistake by Kotaku. This is neither in Sony PR nor on their website. I guess they will clarify this soon enough.

PlayStation Move Sub-Controller

PlayStation Move sub controller is a supplementary controller, developed to further expand the experience that PlayStation Move games can offer. It can be used in most PlayStation Move games that require navigating an in-game character as it replicates the control features of the left side of DUALSHOCK 3 and SIXAXIS wireless controller into one’s PlayStation Move experience. PlayStation Move sub controller adds an analog stick, directional buttons and two face buttons into the PlayStation Move's control scheme. In addition, the sub-controller contains the L1 button, L2 button and L3 button for actions and commands common in advanced gaming.

KEY FEATURES:

- Wireless control completely untethered from PlayStation Move motion controller
- Intuitive navigation of in-game characters
- Easy and intuitive XMB menu navigation
- Built-in rechargeable Li-ion battery
- Charge the controller and automatically pair it with the PS3 system via a USB cable (Type A - Mini-B)
- Sleek curved body design that easily pairs with the motion controller

Note: DUALSHOCK 3 and SIXAXIS wireless controller can be used in place of the sub controller for all games that are compatible with the sub controller.

The newly announced PlayStation Move sub-controller is controlled with one hand, and has been developed to further expand the gameplay options that PlayStation Move games can offer. The PlayStation Move sub-controller features a sleek curved design that pairs with the motion controller and comes with an analog stick and directional buttons that allow users to easily control a game when moving characters or choosing a direction.

[jonabbey]

It can't be more sophisticated than what's in the DS3, though, can it? The DS3 has 3 accelerometers and 1 gyro, no?

I don't believe the DS3 has any gyros.. I think it's just three orthogonal linear accelerometers.

[betan]

I don't believe the DS3 has any gyros.. I think it's just three orthogonal linear accelerometers.

ds3 has pretty decent tilt detection, thus gyros.

[corduroygt]

With Sony buying media molecule, I'd say the launch title is LittleBigSports

[ShadowRunner]

I believe the wand also contains terrestrial magnetic field sensor, what would this be used for? Auto calibration?

[Shifty Geezer]

That's an absolute positioning component, so I'd guess yes, some sort of autocalibration to a global norm.

[patsu]

This: http://www.gametrailers.com/video/gdc-10-sony/62923

It could be that the guy playing is just plain bad, but you can cleary see he is having trouble at aiming to the enemies even with that very noticeable aim assist. He never gets straight to the target, always moves the crosshair around until it snaps.

The on stage demo on Move Party was also embarrassing given that looked more of a tech demo to show the precision of the controller. The woman struggled to point at the play button to start the demo, and couldn't draw the shapes inside the lines, the guy even goes on to say something like: "You have to draw slower because you are not drawing inside the lines".

But it could be bad people playing, or even bad wip demos, but they did left an awful impression on me.

The presenter mentioned that the left stick controls the player movement while the motion controller controls both the camera _and_ the cross-hair. The cross-hair seems to move independent of the camera, so the wandering cross-hair you see may be just his play style (Trying to keep focus on key target while on the move). Without an accurate pointing mechanism, Zipper won't try to squeeze 2 very critical and delicate functions onto the same controller. It won't be playable.

I was looking for a video shot of both the controller (close-up) and the reticule on the screen. It would allow us to see the accuracy (or inaccuracy) better. But they seem to want us to see the demoer's game face like Wii ads (>_<)


Honestly, only the faithful will shift to playing FPS on this. The rest of us at best will try it out and then go to a scheme that doesn't involve moving our arms around as much. And as I said earlier, this will be Sony's strategy. Grabbing Wii ports and having developers implement wand controls as a gimmick in 3rd party games.

It's like E3 2009 all over again. None of us cared for motion controls before, why suddenly this pretense that it's the true path to amazing gameplay?

Well, I'd be curious to try it out. I was wrong. They did mention a new feature for Socom Move: The new control scheme may allow independent camera and reticule controls (without head tracking).

EDIT: If I got that part right, I am even more mad at the people who plan and write the scripts. They should highlight the key points themselves, rather than depend on journalists to post more erroneous notes, and forumites to do investigative work.

[Rolf N]

It is not what I want to say. It is better to move the camera with a stick. And use the Psmove only for shooting.So independent camera+reticule that can go anywhere on screen? That sounds pretty hard to control. I'd probably confuse myself a lot when I have two orthogonal tasks mapped to the same hand. I.e. the usual relation between my right thumb and right forearm is that the arm and wrist perform the coarse motions to put the hand reasonably close to its target. Then the fingers and thumb add some fine-tuning to get into the correct spots with higher precision.

Maybe if I had a third arm ...

[ShadowRunner]

There definately does seem to be something different going on with the controls in Socom. At the start of the demo you can see that the camera is moving about while the reticule is near the centre, as if there was quite a small bound box. Later on in the demo he is moving the reticule around to the very edges of the screen without it moving the camera at all, as if there is no bound box. Would be interesting to find out whats going on here maybe the analogue trigger on the subcontroller (new name please) is controlling the size of the bound box, the further it is pressed the wider the box becomes. Or maybe there is no bound box when a button isnt held but a button press then causes camera to pan in direction of the reticule for however long the button is held, speed of camera could be from how hard the trigger is held or reticules distance from centre.

[goonergaz]

I don't have much of an issue holding the DS3 in my left hand? I'd also suggest a 3rd party strap might come out (maybe I should patent the idea! :D).

WRT MM - Sackboy will be the new Mario and we'll end up with a slew of Mario-esq party games featuring SB.

[Quaz51]

I believe the wand also contains terrestrial magnetic field sensor, what would this be used for? Auto calibration?

it's for Yaw calibration (pitch and roll use gravity/accelerometer for calibration)

[ShadowRunner]

The Shoot:

62992

Doesnt actually look as bad as some impressions had me believe. Sonys biggest issue is hyping the event, especially at an event for the hardcore were this sort of stuff isnt what we want to see. Showed it to my nefew and he seemed to think it looked great...

The jitter only seems to come when sooting, could be that the springy trigger button is causing it using the face button may be smoother.

[obonicus]

Honestly, for the type of crowd they're going for, they don't need to hype a thing at GDC. If they need to do it at a show event, it's E3/Gamescon/TGS, where there's major media coverage.

Which leads me to ask why they made these reveals at GDC... is it to pick up developers who they don't have deals with already? Testing the water with angry obsessive game nerds?

[patsu]

My guess is this:
Testing the water with angry obsessive game nerds?

muahaha

[ShadowWolf64]

Im not liking the design of the Move as it looks too much like a wiimote but is a little bit more accurate..

[ShadowRunner]

The ping pong game is probably the best thing they showed by far. Id say it looks to be the best ping pong game ever, not saying much but atleast its something :lol:

Its the only thing i saw that id say is not possible on any other system. It looks like just another Wii game at first but when you realise the guy has full control of the virtual paddle in 3d space it really is impressive, atleast to me anyhow. Definately has potential.

62931

[Shifty Geezer]

Im not liking the design of the Move as it looks too much like a wiimote...Well they're kinda limited in options! I feel they've managed to differentiate quite well considering the interface mechanics are identical. Where Wiimote looks a lot like a remote, Move has a more controller-like design. The only other solution I can see would be a cylinder, more lightsabre-ish.

[thop]

No motion detection in the subcontroller.

http://us.playstation.com/ps3/accessories/scph-98060.html
http://us.playstation.com/ps3/accessories/scph-98061.html

Also no 4P gaming?

Up to two motion controllers and two sub controllers can be connected at once to the PS3™ system.

Or only without sub controllers.

Up to Four motion controllers can be connected at once to the PS3™ system.

[patsu]

Well they're kinda limited in options! I feel they've managed to differentiate quite well considering the interface mechanics are identical. Where Wiimote looks a lot like a remote, Move has a more controller-like design. The only other solution I can see would be a cylinder, more lightsabre-ish.

Not just look. It feels similar partly also because the presentation didn't highlight the differences enough, and most of the software didn't have any surprises. ^_^

PCs and Macs, iPhones and Androids may look the "same" externally, but many people perceive them differently.

If they have spare resources, they should do a PSEye only tool/feature as well. EyePet would be a good example.

No motion detection in the subcontroller.

http://us.playstation.com/ps3/accessories/scph-98060.html
http://us.playstation.com/ps3/accessories/scph-98061.html

Also no 4P gaming?

Or only without sub controllers.

Interesting. Perhaps they want to manage the wireless channel bandwidth (lag) ? Tracking 4 main controllers should be more CPU intensive than tracking 2 controllers + 2 subcontrollers.

[Silent_Buddha]

I hope we hear about a Natal boxing game. Eurogamers review of Move's fighter says is guesture based rather than 1:1, with buttons to execute moves. Natal should manage true player tracking and give a much more realistic experience.

I wouldn't be surprised if first efforts at something like that (if there is one for Launch) would use quick and dirty canned movements triggered by player movement in order to save dev time balancing and creating AI to deal with 1:1 movements.

I'm expecting most of the Launch titles to be more simplistic with later titles (and more dev time) exploring 1:1 movements more fully.

Regards,
SB

[(((interference)))]

So was this the launch? It's pretty underwhelming if it was.

Gizmodo says the Move is going to be a pretty expensive proposition (http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2010/03/the-playstation-move-experience-is-going-to-be-expensive/#more-387165), which might hamper it's casual appeal (unlike Natal where you just need the one camera)
http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/4/2010/03/500x_pricing.jpg

And there's also no full support for 4 players (http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2010/03/playstation-move-gimps-4-player-support/#more-387188)

You're limited to 4 Move controllers or 2 move controllers + 2 sub controllers. Unlike the Wii where you can have 4 wiimotes + nunchaks

All in all, from a casual perspective the Move will look like a rather clunky affair and not really all that different from the Wii.
Natal seems far more elegant and fresh, does anyone believe the system is actually much improved (lag & precision wise) from the iteration they've been demonstrating as Molyneux claimed?

[thop]

Microsoft can apparently (http://www.forbes.com/2010/03/02/microsoft-wii-videogames-technology-business-intelligence-natal.html) only track two players, so their numbers are a bit wrong.

But you can still use regular controllers in addition to that, so theoretically up to 6 players. This doesn't seem to be possible with Sony. Nintendo supports up to 8 players, with 4 Gamecube controllers, which a few games like Bomberman actually use.

[patsu]

I wouldn't be surprised if first efforts at something like that (if there is one for Launch) would use quick and dirty canned movements triggered by player movement in order to save dev time balancing and creating AI to deal with 1:1 movements.

I'm expecting most of the Launch titles to be more simplistic with later titles (and more dev time) exploring 1:1 movements more fully.


Ideally, I'd love to see a close combat game like this:

The baseline is true 1-1 mapping (accurately tracking your chops). If this part is done well, the game may appear to be responsive and fluidal. A casual observer would marvel at the precision. There is not much high level interpretation (It's as easy as Dr. Marks spinning his sword in the tech demo). To make the gameplay more interesting at this level, the developers may vary the strength of each punch/slice by the swing speed, assuming the motion sensor is sensitive enough. It would allow my son to play with me since he will swing his arms randomly and at fearsome speed anyway. Any perceived lag at this stage is not so good.

Now to make things more interesting, the developers may introduce timing skills (button presses for massive damage to crabs and non-crabs).

Then to make things even more interesting, the developers may introduce weapons. A Dragonbone Smasher (http://i40.tinypic.com/mhyi6e.jpg) would have intentional lag since it's heavier and more powerful. But since this is a user chosen feature, they would understand the lag even though they may b*tch about it.

Finally, for the moves that require high level interpretations (i.e. gesture-based spells and special abilities), these will necessarily be laggy too since the game needs to wait for the user to [almost] finish his move before recognizing the pattern. I would reserve these for some crazy critical hits and one-hit kills. In the mean time, I'll need to sustain damage dealt by the opponent. As I execute my gesture, it would be nice to build up the atmosphere too (like count down, changing light colors, showing lightning and swirling leaves/cloud as I swing my controller).

If they have something like this, my son and I will probably spend the whole weekend playing until my back breaks.

EDIT: Actually, now that I think about it. I know how my son would counter my killer move. He'll just abort the game, and run to the back room to get his mom. Normal players won't have this master stroke (Mom not included).

[obonicus]

So was this the launch? It's pretty underwhelming if it was.


It's the reveal. The launch would suggest the product is in stores.


Gizmodo says the Move is going to be a pretty expensive proposition (http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2010/03/the-playstation-move-experience-is-going-to-be-expensive/#more-387165), which might hamper it's casual appeal (unlike Natal where you just need the one camera)
http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/4/2010/03/500x_pricing.jpg
The depths of whose ass did Gizmondo plumb for that chart? This is enough of a news clusterf* enough without Kotaku's slower brother pulling stuff out of thin air.


Natal seems far more elegant and fresh,
This from your extensive hands-on experience with it, right? We know only slightly more about Natal than we did at E3 last year. People thought the Wand would be precise and fast back then, too.


does anyone believe the system is actually much improved (lag & precision wise) from the iteration they've been demonstrating as Molyneux claimed?I think it's quite possible, but Molyneux will say anything. It'd take his word plus detailed impressions of the final product from multiple independent websites for me to even start to have an opinion on Natal. (Beyond my general opinion on motion controls, of course.)

[(((interference)))]

It's the reveal. The launch would suggest the product is in stores.


The depths of whose ass did Gizmondo plumb for that chart? This is enough of a news clusterf* enough without Kotaku's slower brother pulling stuff out of thin air.



This from your extensive hands-on experience with it, right? We know only slightly more about Natal than we did at E3 last year. People thought the Wand would be precise and fast back then, too.



Well, read the article, it isn't unbelievable.

I don't think anyone could argue that the Natal concept is more elegant and innovative than the Move. Whether it works is a different matter.

[corduroygt]

1. No reason why Move should cost more than the Wii motion+. I believe they'll be priced identically.
2. Move vs. Natal could not have been a better demonstration of Sony vs Microsoft, or Tech. vs. Presentation. Sony console has the superior tech, has drop dead gorgeous exclusives, yet they can't have party chat, automatic install (seriously why can't it automatically install the downloaded files without resorting to the shut down option), discless Netflix etc. MS has cheaper less capable hardware yet Live and the software interface is very good at making you feel a part of the community. In motion controls, Move is supremely capable without polish, while Natal is all about polish.

[patsu]

automatic install (seriously why can't it automatically install the downloaded files without resorting to the shut down option)

Eh... If you don't put your download into background mode, the install is automatic. I don't know why install is a separate step for background download. May be a security feature ? (to prevent automated patch without user approval).

If you leave your download in the background, you don't have to shutdown after install. It's an option (e.g., Need to upgrade PS3 while you're out of the house).

[obonicus]

Well, read the article, it isn't unbelievable.


No, but it's still made up. You don't need a blogger to dream up some math using made-up numbers, we have people local to B3D who can do a great job of that.


I don't think anyone could argue that the Natal concept is more elegant and innovative than the Move. Whether it works is a different matter.Innovative I'll give you. Sony is aping the Wii here shamelessly, this is their attempt not to be left out of the loop, to get some of that casual appeal to their console. But innovation for innovation's sake doesn't impress me. Move was Sony's chance to to iterate on the Wiimote's design and deliver something that might have interested me. Pre-alpha software and all that, but it doesn't seem like they've succeeded -- and more importantly, I don't think success by my metric is high on their list considering what Sony is trying to do.

Elegance, though? The Move has buttons, I like buttons. I find the regular controller far more 'elegant' than kludgy motion controls. But then I think the premise that ordinary gamers are scared away by controllers to be overly simplistic -- I think most of the blame lies on the games.

[patsu]

Well, read the article, it isn't unbelievable.

I don't think anyone could argue that the Natal concept is more elegant and innovative than the Move. Whether it works is a different matter.

I think that's partly because Sony (as usual) break up their features into fragments/silos: PSEye and Move, whereas MS lumps all the natural interfaces under one Natal umbrella. There are features in PSEye that are really sophisticated and out already (controller-free stuff demoed by the Milo concept video), but it's counted out when people just look at Move.

Sony am stupid.

Once they start breaking up their own stuff, they are already inferior. e.g., the Move pricing includes a PSEye, which has its own family of possibilities and software (including the free EyeCreate), compared to Wii.

I have a feeling someone in Sony marketing work(s) for their competition. :twisted: They under-sell their engineers' hard work. They make their products look a lot smaller than what they really are.

[Butta]

If this source that someone at IGN talked is right then ouch about motion control on PS3 and 360:

GDC 10 Raw: One Man's Account
Editor-at-Large Matt Casamassina dishes the dirt on the behind-the-scenes murmurings at the event.
by Matt Casamassina
March 11, 2010 - Every game show has its own identity. The Electronic Entertainment Expo is a blockbuster event -- a collective stage for companies to debut and advertise their wares. Big news or no news all surrounded in spectacular light shows and music so thumping loud it drowns out thought. DICE has become the annual epicenter of deal brokerage -- the meeting place developers go to pitch and publishers to sign games. And the Game Developers Conference has some of that, too. But at least this year, it was also about getting jobs. Seemingly smaller in scope and less cocky all around. Depressingly, lots of people both young and new to the industry were either looking for work or struggling to hang on to it. A sign of the times, maybe -- the recession has certainly had its impact on videogames, just like any other industry.

Still, GDC continues to house some great panels and lots of behind-the-scenes goings-on. Game-makers still hole up in hotel suites armed only with rented flat-screen televisions and development hardware, and they take meetings with potential partners all day long. Publishers do the same thing, only reversed. And everybody has an opinion about something -- a game, an industry figure -- or a rumor to pass along, unsubstantiated but interesting nevertheless.

For me, GDC is a chance to catch up with people in development or publishing and possibly see games that won't be formally announced for several months if not longer. Then, inevitably, I have to think about ways to secure the exclusives on these games without admitting to the aforementioned developers and publishers that I am actually aware of their existence, have seen or maybe even played them. Imagine a call to a public relations person with a pitch that begins, "So, I'm not saying you're doing this, but if you were going to announce [X] at E3, just wanted you to know that..." You get the picture.

Ultimately, early meetings like these afford me and every other writer in the industry with contacts unfettered insight into some of the games and hardware cooking. Sometimes, the information is good and other times it's just conjecture or hope in disguise. Prior to the launch of GameCube, I remember developers telling me that it was going to be a far superior system to Xbox despite Microsoft's added horsepower because the GCN architecture allowed for better data bandwidth. Needless to say, that never really panned out. Without multiple verifications or the official confirmation, it's not always easy to separate fact from fiction, but I usually find that there's some truth to most persistent rumors, however exaggerated or warped the end information.

So I'm relaxing on a couch in a high-rise suite as a developer offers me a glimpse of its new game, still unannounced but very exciting. We get to talking about Sony's motion controller, recently unveiled. I played with it at publisher's event and as something of a Wii veteran with a firm understanding of how pointer and gestural controls work and how games should feel when they are properly finessed. I'm not impressed, I say. PS3 Move features almost no latency -- just one frame -- but that paper truth didn't seem to translate to reality as I played with the controller at Sony's event. Most of the stuff played like first-generation Wii efforts from third-parties.

Obviously, I'm not making games and I'm sure some software creators will note that with the roll of the eyes and claim that it's all too easy for me to bitch and moan from the backseat, or the sidelines, as it were. But playing the armchair role for a minute, it seems an unavoidable conclusion to me that Sony should have at least examined the very best genre-leaders on Nintendo's platform and then duplicated if not surpassed them with its own Move-controlled experiences. For instance, Medal of Honor, The Conduit and Red Steel 2 offer fantastic controls for first-person shooters. Anything less than these will be considered substandard by the informed masses -- at least those with knowledge of Wii's library. Unfortunately, Move doesn't yet compete. The company's shooter feels laggy and unresponsive as I attempt to gun down robotic targets. The boxing game is not one-to-one, but gestural-based, and slow. Nearly everything feels redone, but somehow half-baked.

The exceptions are the augmented reality games, which project gameplay graphics onto real-time views of players using Sony's camera. These are all flimsy affairs -- mini-games of the sort that sold Wii consoles three years ago, but as I watch people having fun while they shave the heads of goofy virtual monsters, I can't help but think how much my kids are going to love this stuff. It's fluffy, sure, but families will eat it up and there's just enough freshness that critics like me can't say that Sony copied Nintendo, at least not blatantly. Just as importantly, it's responsive and it feels good.

Move's hardware is more than competent and there's certainly a lot of potential, but most of it remained untapped at the event. This opinion is seconded by the developer, which is working closely with the device. They tell me that they believe it will ultimately outperform the Wii remote in responsiveness and say that their own tests are already proving that true. I ask if there is the kind of lag I experienced at Sony's demo and they say no, that it's very fast and reliable when programmed correctly. They add that it still has some calibration issues like the Wii remote, but that it's still an improvement.

Natal, though -- the motion offering from Microsoft -- not so much. The same studio rep calls Natal a big, buggy mess. "It's sh*t," he adds, saying that it just doesn't work as promised. That it's slow and that the camera is imprecise, which he notes, is causing some major development woes.

He refers to a development conference Microsoft held not so long ago in which Peter Molyneux of Fable fame (presently, creative director at Microsoft Game Studios) took the stage and attempted to demo the publisher's much-publicized Milo Natal project. Molyneux apparently called someone from the audience to the stage and asked them to interact with the virtual boy, but it didn't go to plan. Natal's camera failed to see the person accurately because he was wearing a black trench coat. After some fiddling, he was asked to remove his trench coat and -- whoops -- wore a black shirt underneath. When it still didn't work, he was invited to take his seat again.

Next, Molyneux said that Milo could interact with illustrations drawn to paper and scanned by the camera. He asked the audience for suggestions. "You could see him cocking his head and listening for the right key words, and then finally he heard something the game would recognize," my development source explains. It was a cat. So he invited someone from the audience to ascend the steps to the stage and illustrate the feline on paper. When Natal attempted to scan the horribly scribbled drawing, it instead picked up the Abercrombie & Fitch logo on the person's sweater.

I laugh at this but try to play devil's advocate. Okay, I say, so it's obvious you're not a fan, but somebody must be getting this thing to work well or it wouldn't be on the slate to ship this year. I ask if he knows of any other studios struggling with Natal.

"How about Rare and Lionhead? They're just going to try to make launch and then they're going to patch everything later," he says, laughing.

I'm very interested in the platform, but I haven't entrenched myself in Natal development. Later, when I bump into a colleague, I ask them if they have heard any behind-the-scenes rumblings about development trouble with Microsoft's casual entry device. He turns to me and says that yes, he has -- that studios are telling him they're struggling to get it working.

It's anecdotal and unproven and I know from experience that it's never so black and white. The fact of the matter is, the Wii remote shipped with so many problems that Nintendo was forced to release an upgrade device that even needs constant recalibration. And Wii MotionPlus? Word on the street is that the heat from your hands de-calibrates the sensor. It's still not perfect by any means, but it's workable, and I think that by the time Natal ships, it will be workable too, even if developers have to kill themselves getting it there. Lest we not forget that there are some amazing games for Wii and whether by ingenuity or simple trickery, the motion controls sometimes feel fantastic.

What I do find very telling about both some of these public unveilings and secret murmurings, however, is just how difficult it seems to be to nail motion controls. People love to shrug off Nintendo's work. Hell, I've done it. But for all the primitive graphics surrounding the Wii Sports experience, there's some pretty fancy handiwork powering the gameplay controls -- and I think Microsoft and Sony are only now discovering just how fancy it really is.

Speaking of Nintendo, everyone seems to be waiting for word on the company's next system. It's the go-to question in interviews. "Yes, I understand Wii sold a bazillion units in December alone, but hey -- when's Wii HD coming?" Yeah -- I'm guilty of that one, too. And it's no different when I talk to developers and publishers, nearly all of whom receive the obligatory query about new hardware -- what and when? I always resign myself to the no comment or the no idea, but at GDC I struck a bit of a niblet when a developer said Nintendo told him it would be ready to roll with Wii 2 in 2012. Anybody with a brain would probably guess as much, but it is even so always refreshing to hear so from a semi-official source.

Of course, the NPD numbers just hit and the Wii dominance is at an end. Outsold in February by Xbox 360, ending a forever-long winning streak. And PS3 was not far behind, either. We'll just have to see if Nintendo isn't willing to move that date forward.

Takeaways so far: Sony has made a dildo-controller that feels like a gimped Wii remote. Natal sucks. And Wii 2 is in no rush. At least, that's how it goes in pure black and white and if you believe everything you hear at this year's Game Developers Conference. Of course, if you do, then maybe you'll also believe that GameCube's fill rate is much better than Xbox's and therefore Nintendo's hardware is superior. Right?

[obonicus]

Cassamassina was in love with the Conduit, so I'd take his opinions with a lump of salt. The developer comments are interesting, but anonymous impressions aren't worth that much either. For all we know he's talking to someone who's never made a good game.

[AzBat]

1. No reason why Move should cost more than the Wii motion+. I believe they'll be priced identically.

The one issue here is that the PSEye isn't included with every PS3 like the sensor bar is with the Wii. Plus, the PSEye isn't some kind of cheap piece of equipment like the sensor bar. I believe that extra cost is one thing that will be a big stumbling block for Move compared to Wii. Existing Wii & Xbox 360 owners who already have a sizable investment in games & accessories might be put off by another sizable investment needed to get the full experience. I know I am be since I have no investment in either a Wii or PS3.

IMHO, my biggest complaint I have with the system is that damn colored sphere! Get rid of that dorky thing & the required PSEye while you're at it. :)

Other issues I have...

No gyro or rumble in the sub-controller:

-No off-hand gyro: The Wii Nunchuk has a sensor that detects motion, more crudely than does the Remote. The PS3's version of the Nunchuk, does not have a motion sensor, according to a developer I was speaking to. There's a chance that is not final, but that is the case with the controllers at Sony's showcase event today. But that's why two-handed boxing-style games were shown with two Moves. On the Wii, those kinds of games are handled, with supposedly less precision, with a Remote and Nunchuk.

http://kotaku.com/5490574/how-the-playstation-move-is-not-a-wii-remote

There are no motion sensors inside the sub-controller, and from what we can tell there's no rumble either, though we couldn't get a straight "no" on that.

http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/11/playstation-move-everything-you-ever-wanted-to-know/

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.joystiq.com/media/2010/03/img6648-3102010-3.jpg

What the heck is that 2nd connector called EXT?

Tommy McClain

[bkilian]

Honestly, only the faithful will shift to playing FPS on this. The rest of us at best will try it out and then go to a scheme that doesn't involve moving our arms around as much. And as I said earlier, this will be Sony's strategy. Grabbing Wii ports and having developers implement wand controls as a gimmick in 3rd party games.

It's like E3 2009 all over again. None of us cared for motion controls before, why suddenly this pretense that it's the true path to amazing gameplay?Actually that's a net win for Sony. Even if you only use the controller once, you've still bought it, and you can bet they'll be making a profit on it.

[Squilliam]

What the heck is that 2nd connector called EXT?

Tommy McClain

Something for extra accessories and/or plugging the upchuck into the Wand?

[(((interference)))]

I think that's partly because Sony (as usual) break up their features into fragments/silos: PSEye and Move, whereas MS lumps all the natural interfaces under one Natal umbrella. There are features in PSEye that are really sophisticated and out already (controller-free stuff demoed by the Milo concept video), but it's counted out when people just look at Move.

Sony am stupid.

Once they start breaking up their own stuff, they are already inferior. e.g., the Move pricing includes a PSEye, which has its own family of possibilities and software (including the free EyeCreate), compared to Wii.

I have a feeling someone in Sony marketing work(s) for their competition. :twisted: They under-sell their engineers' hard work. They make their products look a lot smaller than what they really are.

An interesting article that talks about just this:
http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2010/03/how-sony-lost-its-way/

Take “Bravia Link“, the streaming media box that Sony decided to sell as a $US200 aftermarket option for its televisions while Sony’s competitors were integrating similar services right into the TV. Worse, Sony sells the PlayStation 3. Why not integrate the streaming service into that, adding value to the PS3 and buy-in of its customers?

Sony released the first e-ink reader years before the Kindle – in Japan only. And it was nearly impossible to load your own content onto it. And it took years to get a solid online library and store together. According to estimates from Forrester Research, Sony had only sold about 50,000 of its Readers before Amazon entered the game with the Kindle.

Netbooks were hot – so Sony built a netbook twice as expensive as its competitors with little performance difference then let it fade away in the market after spending millions on its launch campaign.

Sony seems to suffer from its own vastness and mutilple business divisions all doing their own thing (much like GM) which leads to a lack of focus.
The software companies- Apple, Google, MS seem to be better at bringing the different elements of their businesses together.

[(((interference)))]

Something for extra accessories and/or plugging the upchuck into the Wand?

It's obviously for the Memory Stick reader add-on :wink:

[patsu]

An interesting article that talks about just this:
http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2010/03/how-sony-lost-its-way/

Sony seems to suffer from its own vastness and mutilple business divisions all doing their own thing (much like GM) which leads to a lack of focus.
The software companies- Apple, Google, MS seem to be better at bringing the different elements of their businesses together.

Alas, yes. For the record, Sony is bringing Bravia Link to PS3. I believe Sony COO mentioned it in an interview. Belated, yes. Coming, yes.

What I mentioned above is completely within SCE though. They scoped down their natural interface work and had people associate/attribute the features to PS3. But when people discuss hot topics like gaming natural interfaces, they will just use words like "Natal", "Wii" to describe the types of input. SIXAXIS, PSEye and PSMove are merely point products in the grand scheme of things. Whereas PS3 "does everything" in a very generic sense, there is no unique notion of next-gen input on PS3 (Wii is synonymous to motion control). It will make justifying for their controller price more difficult to understand. All the PSMove technical advantages will be lost in the noises.

Sony claims that they have many years of experiences working with motion control, but it's really mostly PSEye and SIXAXIS. Unless they highlight PSEye capabilities and benefits to the end users directly, they will appear to be copying/lagging behind Nintendo Wii to the consumers at large.

It's obviously for the Memory Stick reader add-on :wink:

Probably something mundane.

They have a patent on extending Move with new sensors though (like how Wiimote becomes Wiimote+).

[patsu]

Move Diary #2:
http://blog.us.playstation.com/2010/03/11/playstation-move-developer-diary-2/

...featuring Zindagi Games.


That ping pong game, and the Move sword game look more and more interesting (Demon's Soooooouuuulssss !).

[chris100]

http://game.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/20100311_354095.html

One SPE is used for supporting PS Move.

If four Move controller are connected,there is also one SPE usage only but the latency can be longer.

(Looks like one spe is dedicated for PS move?)

[Lucid_Dreamer]

People thought the Wand would be precise and fast back then, too.
Can we PLEASE be a little responsible with the things we say? We should all know by now that the "Wand" is precise AND fast. The tech demos can be found in numerous places. Any games that show anything else is obviously a coding issue. In other words, please try to be fair and accurate with your words.

[Danalys]

Anything using the libraries it has in common with the Wii for gesture recognition is going to have those problems. You can't interpret a gesture until it's done.

As mentioned before, anything using one to one is going to take some radically new AI. Personally I'd use evolution based routines to find an AI that could block strikes coming in at any angle. The sort of stuff they use to figure out how dinosaurs walked.

That animation system from Force Unleashed, GTA4 and Backbreaker could be used I guess.

[DemoCoder]

I played with the Move today at GDC, it's pretty awesome. What's weird is that I felt some latency between my action and the game, but the onscreen video showing augmented reality of the Move wander transformed into something else tracked *perfectly*, it didn't get out of sync for one second, was silky smooth. So it's weird that it can sense motions with very high accuracy, and paint over the wand to make it look like a tennis racket, yet I still felt like the game itself was sluggish sometimes. Could be a problem with the game.

[Danalys]

Well it's one frame of lag at the least, so you could be sensitive to that when playing motion games. Seeing yourself on screen could diminish that feeling for psychological reasons.

[LightHeaven]

In the pointer's defense, in this video it looks really good: http://www.gametrailers.com/video/gdc-10-socom-4/63019

So i guess it was just someone bad at the game playing before.

[Brad Grenz]

In the pointer's defense, in this video it looks really good: http://www.gametrailers.com/video/gdc-10-socom-4/63019

So i guess it was just someone bad at the game playing before.

Yeah, people who don't really know what lag is should probably refrain from complaining about it.

[Danalys]

Was just thinking about price issues. You only need the controller and camera for most of the games, and they'll pack in with a game that'll only need one, probably the Eyetoy like mini game collection. Then like with Wii play they could offer another controller as a pack in with a different game, probably Sports champions. Could even pack in the Sub controller with Socom 4.

[patsu]

I played with the Move today at GDC, it's pretty awesome. What's weird is that I felt some latency between my action and the game, but the onscreen video showing augmented reality of the Move wander transformed into something else tracked *perfectly*, it didn't get out of sync for one second, was silky smooth. So it's weird that it can sense motions with very high accuracy, and paint over the wand to make it look like a tennis racket, yet I still felt like the game itself was sluggish sometimes. Could be a problem with the game.

Holy crap, I want to be excited, but I don't understand what you're saying; especially this part:
"What's weird is that I felt some latency between my action and the game, but the onscreen video showing augmented reality of the Move wander transformed into something else tracked *perfectly*, it didn't get out of sync for one second, was silky smooth."

How in the world did you feel the latency and yet saw no latency ? 29th Feb 2010 is already over.

EDIT: Interview with Scott Rohde on PS Move:
http://www.joystiq.com/2010/03/11/sony-scott-rohde-interview-on-playstation-move/


Would you say there's a corporate mandate for teams to explore motion control implementation?

It's something that's interesting about Sony that's perhaps different from other publishers is that we really allow creativity to run its course. Everything from the way a studio is run, to the types of games that are developed. I don't think you'd see a game like Heavy Rain come out of too many places. Even a game like LittleBigPlanet when it was originally conceived -- it took some guts to really get it out there.

Same thing with the motion controller. There are certain groups within Worldwide Studios that are head over heels in love with the idea of creating new motion-controlled games and bringing new audiences in. Others are focused on: "Hey, we're focused on bringing you the next great sequel for the next great game." Corporate mandate? No. But a lot of people are jumping on board because they're excited about it.

Sports Champions reminds us a lot of another collection of sports games on a competing platform. Who's behind that title?

That's a new studio we work with, within San Diego Studios, and that's a perfect example of us acquiring a new resource to build this specifically for us.

A new team that hasn't worked with Sony until the Move controller?

That's correct.

[DemoCoder]

What I meant was, while the onscreen video they show of yourself tracked perfectly, it felt like it was "happening in the past" by about 1-2 frames, maybe more. That is, the augmented reality tracking of the polygonal tennis rack perfectly (and i mean PERFECTLY) tracked the image of the onscreen video of myself playing, it was the actual position of my real body in the recent past. Thus, perfect tracking of every movement, but the feeling that you were playing the game with 150ms ping.

[patsu]

http://www.joystiq.com/2010/03/11/playstation-move-requires-1-2-mb-of-system-memory/


Sony's GDC panel "Introducing the PlayStation Motion Controller was exactly that: An introduction to the newly named Move peripheral. David Coombes, Kirk Bender and Anton Mikhailov showcased a number of impressive tech demos, many of which demonstrated the Move's incredible precision and low latency. One of the most impressive demos showcased full body tracking using an on-screen body puppet, not unlike one of Project Natal's tech demos.

Body tracking is made possible by combining the Move and PS3's head tracking capability. According to the presentation, the PS3 can also detect faces, going so far as to identify individuals through face contour and feature detection. The software will be able to recognize gender, age, smiles and when eyes open and close.

Coombes explained that all the calculations necessary to handle image processing are done by the Cell CPU, which apparently excels at the doing floating point calculations. The raw data can be processed incredibly quickly by the PS3, taking "under a frame" to translate to a game experience. And while Mikhailov didn't reveal how much of the CPU's overall power the Move controller requires, he did reveal that the memory demands are truly "insignificant" -- 1-2 MB of system memory.


No fair. They showed the PS Eye technologies to the developers and not the consumers. Can't blame us (read: me) for trolling Sony. It's all old tricks to PSEye, but the seamless integration of PSEye and the motion controllers is very very important to Sony's natural interface system. They need to drive it home with mind blowing software and more exposure.

[patsu]

What I meant was, while the onscreen video they show of yourself tracked perfectly, it felt like it was "happening in the past" by about 1-2 frames, maybe more. That is, the augmented reality tracking of the polygonal tennis rack perfectly (and i mean PERFECTLY) tracked the image of the onscreen video of myself playing, it was the actual position of my real body in the recent past. Thus, perfect tracking of every movement, but the feeling that you were playing the game with 150ms ping.

Question. Did you realize this while you're playing actively. Or did you see the lag by watching a recording of you playing (i.e., the You on TV and the You in the real-life were out of sync from the recorder's perspective) ?

[LightHeaven]

Yeah, people who don't really know what lag is should probably refrain from complaining about it.

I wasn't complaining about lag, i was complaining because in the other video the guy just couldn't point to where he was supposed to, same thing the woman in the move party on stage demo... It's not my fault that sony went all the trouble for making a press conference, just to put people who can't play their games on stage... It gave a really bad impression about the tech, even thought it was totally undue :P

But now, after a day of impressions and interviews the impression i have is a lot more positive, specially with the sony devs caring to explain all the details... Now it just seem that the troubles are a lot more due to the early stage of the games rather than something wrong wit the control itself.

[LightHeaven]

What I meant was, while the onscreen video they show of yourself tracked perfectly, it felt like it was "happening in the past" by about 1-2 frames, maybe more. That is, the augmented reality tracking of the polygonal tennis rack perfectly (and i mean PERFECTLY) tracked the image of the onscreen video of myself playing, it was the actual position of my real body in the recent past. Thus, perfect tracking of every movement, but the feeling that you were playing the game with 150ms ping.

That's probably due the latency the game has itself... If it really was that low, its actually a sign that the controller induced no latency at all.

But that made think about something: Being a single core, single threaded console, with the majority of games being much simpler than what the hardware could take... How does the "baseline" lag for a game just to run on Wii compares with a Ps3 game?

It could be an advantage for wii, if even with less precision, the reduced game delay could somewhat compensate it.

[patsu]

As long as the games handle well (fast and intuitive), I don't think it matters at all.

Wiimote+ has some shortfalls. e.g., frequent need for explicit recalibration, pointing out of screen will pause application. Those are larger issues for Nintendo to work on.

Also, I don't think people are talking about precision difference when comparing with Wiimote+. The latter has true 1-to-1 mapping too. It's the Absolute Positioning that differentiates PS Move from Wiimote+ better. But Wii has more polished software, a huge established base, much much better marketing and execution.

[Iron Tiger]

Move Diary #2:
http://blog.us.playstation.com/2010/03/11/playstation-move-developer-diary-2/

...featuring Zindagi Games.


That ping pong game, and the Move sword game look more and more interesting (Demon's Soooooouuuulssss !).BTW, this is the game I was talking (or not talking) about a couple (http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1339930&postcount=750) times (http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1327146&postcount=76) before.

[NeoTechni]

I'll get it for my collection: http://sites.google.com/site/neotechni/
But I'm not really that excited for it. I'd be more excited had it released on time, but this is Sony we're talking about...

[joker454]

BTW, this is the game I was talking (or not talking) about a couple (http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1339930&postcount=750) times (http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1327146&postcount=76) before.

Do you work there by chance? I'm curious since I know everyone at that studio (pm me if you prefer).

[Danalys]

We saw it in a previous dev diary. It was called champions of time back then.

[zed]

If this source that someone at IGN talked is right then ouch about motion control on PS3 and 360:
seemed quite positive about move labeling it a 'improved wii'
They tell me that they believe it will ultimately outperform the Wii remote in responsiveness and say that their own tests are already proving that true. I ask if there is the kind of lag I experienced at Sony's demo and they say no, that it's very fast and reliable when programmed correctly. They add that it still has some calibration issues like the Wii remote, but that it's still an improvement.
which is pretty much what most of us expected

natal is pretty much what some of us (eg check some of my old posts) predicted as well, I wonder what natal will be called. 'move' would of been a more fitting to this device than sonys 'wand/arc/nob'

[V3]

http://game.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/20100311_354095.html

One SPE is used for supporting PS Move.

If four Move controller are connected,there is also one SPE usage only but the latency can be longer.

(Looks like one spe is dedicated for PS move?)

Remember PS Move uses PS Eye to track movement, so the SPE need to do some image processing for it.

Also, PS3 can only handle like 7 wireless device to begin with. But allowing 7 people with Move might not fit the PS Eye field of view. Even with 4 people I am curious how far PS Eye need to be to fit all 4 players in its frame with enough room not to hit each other. This is one of the weakness of the Sony implementation.

I remember I have problem in Eyetoy with just 3 people.

[NeoTechni]

But allowing 7 people with Move might not fit the PS Eye field of view. Even with 4 people I am curious how far PS Eye need to be to fit all 4 players in its frame with enough room not to hit each other. This is one of the weakness of the Sony implementation.

Its also the exact opposite of Wii's weakness of needing the wiimote to be facing the TV.

Nothing's perfect.

[_phil_]

Patsu :
i don't think body/facial recognition would have worked very well in low light conditions.
As for the lag , processing of data is really under a frame ,and can be lower if well parallelized.

[Lucid_Dreamer]

In the pointer's defense, in this video it looks really good: http://www.gametrailers.com/video/gdc-10-socom-4/63019

So i guess it was just someone bad at the game playing before.

@ 2:15, did you see him snipe two guys off in the distance WITHOUT zooming in?! I can't do that with my DS3 or Sixaxis.

Here is something else from Ars Technica:

Aiming the crosshairs with the Move worked well, and I didn't feel any lag. While I was new to the game, the firefights and encounters were a blast with the controller; there is something much more satisfying about aiming at the screen with a controller instead of moving an analog stick. This is a controller that's ready for more mainstream use in shooters, and the fact that Sony already has a high-profile release that uses the technology so well is heartening.
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2010/03/socom-4-played-with-playstation-move-our-thoughts.ars

[Danalys]

Remember PS Move uses PS Eye to track movement, so the SPE need to do some image processing for it.

Also, PS3 can only handle like 7 wireless device to begin with. But allowing 7 people with Move might not fit the PS Eye field of view. Even with 4 people I am curious how far PS Eye need to be to fit all 4 players in its frame with enough room not to hit each other. This is one of the weakness of the Sony implementation.

I remember I have problem in Eyetoy with just 3 people.

Information released says it supports the use of 4 controllers or two pairs of controller and sub controller. I believe PS Eye has a wider angle lens than the Eyetoy.

[Crossbar]

Information released says it supports the use of 4 controllers or two pairs of controller and sub controller. I believe PS Eye has a wider angle lens than the Eyetoy.

Yes it has, It has two settings of the lense, one which is considerable wider than the original EyeToy.

[ShadowRunner]

I thought the games we were seeing were coming from Sony first party but it looks like they are outscourcing everything? What games have Zindagi Games developed previously? It seems they are made up of ex Kush Games employees who worked on MLB and NHL 2k before they were moved over to 2k games.

Edit: So far

Sports Champions = Zindagi Games (http://www.zindagigames.com/)

Move Party = Supermassive Games (http://www.supermassivegames.com/)

The Shoot = Cohort Studios (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cohort_Studios)

[Arwin]

Yes, I think you'll see more of this, and then third party stuff, and then there are the existing studios that incorporate Move features into existing franchises.

I must say now that I've seen a bunch of movies and demoes, I think things are looking really good. I particularly love the table tennis - it's something I used to play a quite bit.

[ShadowRunner]

Indeed the table tennis game does look excellent even if just as a proof of concept, that level of control added to rockstars more polished game would be awesome.

[LightHeaven]

@ 2:15, did you see him snipe two guys off in the distance WITHOUT zooming in?! I can't do that with my DS3 or Sixaxis.

Here is something else from Ars Technica:


http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2010/03/socom-4-played-with-playstation-move-our-thoughts.ars
Yeah, that's what sold me on the pointer. It is really accurate o.O

The guy in this video manages to turn the cameras sideways a lot faster than the other video i posted which was also a concern for me...

Sony has built something really special in that controller, now i hope the software can follow up.

[LightHeaven]

Remember PS Move uses PS Eye to track movement, so the SPE need to do some image processing for it.

Also, PS3 can only handle like 7 wireless device to begin with. But allowing 7 people with Move might not fit the PS Eye field of view. Even with 4 people I am curious how far PS Eye need to be to fit all 4 players in its frame with enough room not to hit each other. This is one of the weakness of the Sony implementation.

I remember I have problem in Eyetoy with just 3 people.
I'm more concerned about field of view in natal... With move you can at least squeeze everyone to be insight of the camera, and as long as the bulbs are visible you are mostly fine, while on natal i'm thinking that 4 people overlaped in front of eachother can generate a point cloud which is a pain in the *ss to evaluate and not be doable at all...

[Gradthrawn]

Interesting tech demo, IMO:

63057

[patsu]

I want to pilot the mecha in Avatar using the above control scheme !

EDIT:
This one:
jeVhJ5cJAsU

[patsu]

Patsu :
i don't think body/facial recognition would have worked very well in low light conditions.
As for the lag , processing of data is really under a frame ,and can be lower if well parallelized.

For most games, head tracking should be enough. Mixed PSEye and motion controller use is what I want to see. The puppet demo above is intriguing !

BTW, this is the game I was talking (or not talking) about a couple (http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1339930&postcount=750) times (http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1327146&postcount=76) before.

Which direction are they going to take ?
(A) "Serious" sports like Kendo, fencing, etc.
(B) Random fighting between father and son

I want (B) ! Hope they can add in different style/schools of fighting (Nacho Libre-style wrestling, Kung Fu Hustle's school of martial arts, etc.)

[goonergaz]

Something for extra accessories and/or plugging the upchuck into the Wand?

3d glasses?

[rabidrabbit]

Two Move controllers could be attached so a two-headed dil... wand was formed. I can imagine such a controller would be suitable for driving games. All that is needed is a middle adapter which might include some buttons too, or be just a passive block.

A helmet that has attachment for a Move controller for head tracking, two move controlers in your hand, and a belt / holster accessory where Move wands coud be attached, that would form a functioning full body motion capturing system that'd work in less than optimal lighting.

[ShadowRunner]

Interesting tech demo, IMO:

63057

The skeletal tracking was cool, looks responsive enough. Lighting wasnt too great either and seemed to track consistently. If they could track the waist it would be much better. Although its only an approximation based on 3 points it seems to work well enough to allow some form of portability for some natal games to PSMove. Lower body not tracked at all but thats probably the least important aspect anyhow. Big problem is you cant use the subcontroller so no way of moving around. They really should add a small analogue stick to the wand, even if just an unobtrusive PSP style nub. These are such obvious ommisions that i really cant see why they refuse to implement them, must be a reason its a shame its never asked directly in interviews.

[Gradthrawn]

The skeletal tracking was cool, looks responsive enough. Lighting wasnt too great either and seemed to track consistently. If they could track the waist it would be much better. Although its only an approximation based on 3 points it seems to work well enough to allow some form of portability for some natal games to PSMove. Lower body not tracked at all but thats probably the least important aspect anyhow. Big problem is you cant use the subcontroller so no way of moving around. They really should add a small analogue stick to the wand, even if just an unobtrusive PSP style nub. These are such obvious ommisions that i really cant see why they refuse to implement them, must be a reason its a shame its never asked directly in interviews.

To simplify the controller? I'm curious about that decision as well.

However Heavy Rain style movement could still be implemented. Could even do left trigger for forward, right for backward. With head angle or perhaps body angle to determine direction.

[Lucid_Dreamer]

I would like to see GoW3 get patched for Move support. Can you imagine swinging the blades of chaos around?! How about throwing the blades into an enemy and pulling yourself into them (do you know the move I'm talking about)?! That would be sweet gaming bliss right there.

[obonicus]

Those are sorta early-Wii ideas.

[patsu]

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.joystiq.com/media/2010/03/img6648-3102010-3.jpg

What the heck is that 2nd connector called EXT?


I am guessing it's just a temporary/contingency port to have a wired subcontroller connected to the motion controller. That way, they would be able to support 4 complete pairs of Playstation Move controllers. It may be removed in the production version (especially if not many people make noise about their announced MP arrangement).

The final version of PS Move controllers may differ slightly from what we are seeing now. Some reports seem to imply that Sony has not finalized the subcontroller features/design yet.

[patsu]

EyePet GDC 2010 video:
http://www.gametrailers.com/video/gdc-10-eyepet/63065

63065

They changed the paper sketch recognition to PS Move drawing recognition. I hope they give us both options. I'd love to try both.

[Shifty Geezer]

I am guessing it's just a temporary/contingency port to have a wired subcontroller connected to the motion controller.They can do that through the USB port. Does anyone recognise the configuration of the EXT port? I can't make out any pins/contacts. Could it be more a locking mechanism for attaching extensions securely?

Also I notice here the charge contacts on the base of the Move. This suggests it comes with a recharging cradle.

[patsu]

I was thinking the permanent USB port is for registering and charging the controller, and the other for the temporary subcontroller connection. But yes, I could very well be wrong here.

[patsu]

Could any GDC attendee confirm or deny this ?
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=20246888&postcount=4614


Not sure if its been mentioned yet, but there were two points of interest that caught my ears yesterday while at GDC.

1) Because of the accuracy with the Move, there's a balance issue in SOCOM 4 where Move players are dominating Controller players.

2) The Move was used on StarCraft, and not only did it work to make it playable, but the person could do serious competitive play with it.

Just some interesting nuggets of info.

PS - Playing with the pointer functionality, it did feel more accurate than the Wii to me.


EDIT: Still largely a work in progress:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=20247028&postcount=4620


They're definitely still playing around with different control methods. I mentioned I wanted a toggle, actually; use the Move Button to switch from free aim to looking to avoid the whole aspect of bringing the point from the extreme edges of the screen back to the middle to stop looking.

But yeah, they're definitely still playing around with it. The solution now works, but only on a rudimentary level and while I'm happy with the sensitivity, they have bigger issues in place than getting the aiming up to snuff; the game runs nowhere near as good as MAG, and SOCOM really needs to climb out of the rut of being a sub-30 shooter.

Suffice it to say this is neither the final implementation of Move controls nor is it the most ideal version of the existing one. They'll definitely be playing around with things more than the few weeks they've been messing around with the tools and the days since it was actually implemented into the game.

[ShadowRunner]

If they can get Move in the next COD and it gives a competative advantage it could help sell a whole lot of them.

[patsu]

I am waiting patiently for a hands-on.

If true, I am curious about the possibility of mixed PC, Mac and PS3 online gameplay. May be interesting to SOE.

[Lucid_Dreamer]

Those are sorta early-Wii ideas.

Maybe we are talking about different things. Maybe I didn't describe in the amount of detail necessary, due to typing on my phone. What I'm thinking about requires depth info. to be done properly.

[Lucid_Dreamer]

If they can get Move in the next COD and it gives a competative advantage it could help sell a whole lot of them.

I was thinking the same thing. Of course, you will get people that will raise a big stink about getting their butts stomped too badly.

[betan]

I think the fact that Socom 4 with Move is easier is pretty much confirmed, though that does not necessarily mean good accuracy.
I'm curious though how they are going to solve the balance issue without splitting the playerbase.

As for Starcraft, is he talking about a mouse emulation tech demo on a PC?

[patsu]

I think the fact that Socom 4 with Move is easier is pretty much confirmed

Wow, how can you be so optimistic ? :-P


I'm curious though how they are going to solve the balance issue without splitting the playerbase.

As for Starcraft, is he talking about a mouse emulation tech demo on a PC?

Yes, interesting problem. I wonder whether the PS Move scheme is closer to DS3 or mouse.

I am kinda skeptical about playing StarCraft in the living room. Need to at least see it in action. Can't really internalize the experience.

[obonicus]

EyePet GDC 2010 video:
http://www.gametrailers.com/video/gdc-10-eyepet/63065


They changed the paper sketch recognition to PS Move drawing recognition. I hope they give us both options. I'd love to try both.

How much of that is new to Eyepet move? Barring the wand, of course.

[patsu]

New costumes and new mini-games.

[ban25]

I played around with it today and was very impressed. Tracking is much more accurate than I imagined, and the fact that it uses a lit ball means it works very well (even better, in fact) in the dark. The object (sword, baseball bat) and painting demos were very intuitive. The body tracking demo was interesting, but it needed a bit more work.

All in all, I came away very impressed and will definitely buy one of these this year.

[Silent_Buddha]

If they can get Move in the next COD and it gives a competative advantage it could help sell a whole lot of them.

Will the next COD be able to maintain graphics parity with MW2 much less the X360 version if one SPE is reserved for the Move?

Does anyone know how many SPE's are used by MW2?

Regards,
SB

[patsu]

I played around with it today and was very impressed. Tracking is much more accurate than I imagined, and the fact that it uses a lit ball means it works very well (even better, in fact) in the dark. The object (sword, baseball bat) and painting demos were very intuitive. The body tracking demo was interesting, but it needed a bit more work.

All in all, I came away very impressed and will definitely buy one of these this year.

What exactly did you try ?

Did they have the puppet/mecha out for attendees to "play" ?

[ShadowRunner]

Will the next COD be able to maintain graphics parity with MW2 much less the X360 version if one SPE is reserved for the Move?

Does anyone know how many SPE's are used by MW2?

Regards,
SB

I very much doubt any multiplatform game is making extensive use of the SPUs for graphics rendering. The loss of one SPU isnt likely to effect graphics significantly, the remaining SPUs should be able to take up the slack unless you believe MW2 is using more than 80% of each.

[(((interference)))]

I very much doubt any multiplatform game is making extensive use of the SPUs for graphics rendering. The loss of one SPU isnt likely to effect graphics significantly, the remaining SPUs should be able to take up the slack unless you believe MW2 is using more than 80% of each.

I think the bigger problem will be trying to get the 360 version working with Natal's 15% overhead (which is not just CPU usage either)

[Brad Grenz]

I think the bigger problem will be trying to get the 360 version working with Natal's 15% overhead (which is not just CPU usage either)

Which is only one reason why I doubt they'd try to add Natal support at all. More importantly is the lack of a clear, effective way to control an FPS with full body motion control. Maybe they could add token features like a Burnout-style crash/kill cam, but in that case it's just being used as a webcam.

[(((interference)))]

Which is only one reason why I doubt they'd try to add Natal support at all. More importantly is the lack of a clear, effective way to control an FPS with full body motion control. Maybe they could add token features like a Burnout-style crash/kill cam, but in that case it's just being used as a webcam.

True, but MS could always make Natal work with a sub controller with analog stick + buttons, couldn't they?

On the overhead issue, it's quite surprising to see that Fable 3 will only use Natal to add some extra interactivity (likely for the 'Touch' feature) and yet the whole game will have to run with 15% less processing power just due to Natal support - affecting players who will never use Natal.

[Shifty Geezer]

They have that option, and I expect them to introduce some form of Natal controller eventually, but at launch, so far it's been positioned as the controllerless interface, so by MS's own marketing strategy they can't offer a controller. Every launch game/experience has to be sans controller.

That said, there's nothing to stop them adding optional Natal support for existing controller franchises like Halo. I'm not sure how Natal would be integrated for targeting, but you could convey cover/ducking from movements which might be good, having to get your head down for real when the virtual bullets start flying!

[goonergaz]

True, but MS could always make Natal work with a sub controller with analog stick + buttons, couldn't they?

On the overhead issue, it's quite surprising to see that Fable 3 will only use Natal to add some extra interactivity (likely for the 'Touch' feature) and yet the whole game will have to run with 15% less processing power just due to Natal support - affecting players who will never use Natal.

Well again, this is being touted as 'no more need for a controller' - and WRT Fable 3, why would the whole game have to run with 15% left for Natal...surely just the Natal parts will require that? I should imagine those sections will be 'seperate' to the rest of the game.

[(((interference)))]

They have that option, and I expect them to introduce some form of Natal controller eventually, but at launch, so far it's been positioned as the controllerless interface, so by MS's own marketing strategy they can't offer a controller. Every launch game/experience has to be sans controller.

That said, there's nothing to stop them adding optional Natal support for existing controller franchises like Halo. I'm not sure how Natal would be integrated for targeting, but you could convey cover/ducking from movements which might be good, having to get your head down for real when the virtual bullets start flying!

Yeah, they wouldn't be able to add accessories until later.

Can Natal still detect fingers? Maybe u could use finger gestures to control FPSs.
Looking at how Move can be used to play Starcraft, wouldn't Natal be ideal for console RTSs like Halo Wars (much like RUSE played on Surface).

With Halo i'd be cool if u could use Natal to throw grenades, or for SWAT hand gestures/ pointing etc. the ability to control your Spartan avatar through motion capture would be a boon for machinima as well.

[MfA]

It's not realistic to expect that sort of thing from Natal (well the Machinima could work, but I don't think there's a large customer base). I don't see XBox360 developers crippling their FPS's just to push Natal. PS3 move ... like Wii, but better. Natal ... even more casual than Wii, unless they add a controller (which in the short term would be admitting defeat).

[Rolf N]

Yeah, they wouldn't be able to add accessories until later.

Can Natal still detect fingers? Maybe u could use finger gestures to control FPSs.
Looking at how Move can be used to play Starcraft, wouldn't Natal be ideal for console RTSs like Halo Wars (much like RUSE played on Surface).

With Halo i'd be cool if u could use Natal to throw grenades, or for SWAT hand gestures/ pointing etc. the ability to control your Spartan avatar through motion capture would be a boon for machinima as well.But how do you switch out of gun mode and into grenade throwing mode (and back)? How can the system tell you're pointing your squad in a direction and not your weapon? Pointing is only a tiny part of usual game interfaces. It's easy to forget that these interactions or mode shifts need to be triggered in some fashion, one that does not intefere with the pointing function in the ideal case. Making a gesture is a bad trigger action because it invalidates your pointing direction (on the same hand).

How do you even shoot? Even to just pause your game you already need a voice command or fall back on a traditional pad controller, and you're talking about games where you have to simultaneously aim and strafe and shoot and jump and manage a weapon loadout. None of this will be possible ... short of the camera tracking your fingers as they interact with analog sticks and buttons on a controller.

Even the Wii remote, as limiting as it feels a lot of times, has four buttons and a d-pad in immediate reach, and three more buttons for non-time-critical/system interactions. Natal has zero. Expect any games for it to be either simplified to the extreme or rely heavily on voice commands. Neither idea appeals to me at all.

[Shifty Geezer]

Can Natal still detect fingers? We've heard they have finger detection, but haven't seen examples other than that concept finger-fighter game, and looking at the tech it seems unlikely they'll have finger tracking at normal playing distance; finger tracking is probably an alternate mode where you move the camera up clsoe to the fingers.

Natal could actually offer a better FPs experience by having a virtual rifle held two-handed. Natal could determine the rifle trajectory from the line traced from back hand to fore hand. You would break the rifle-hold stance to do other things like pull levers or chuck grenades, which should be pretty robust to track. Ideally they'd want a rifle peripheral to hold, and it could have a thumb-nub on the front for moving. Camera view would probably need to be locked to reticule. They could go to town and add a thumbstick on the stock too, but that's asking even more of the gamer!

[MfA]

Natal could actually offer a better FPs experience by having a virtual rifle held two-handed.
I'd much rather simply point with my index finger and yell "pew pew" (or move my thumb up and down) than try to aim down an invisible iron sight ... and I imagine all the casuals would agree with me. The casuals won't appreciate the extra realism of a virtual gun, they'll be content with the kid style hand pistol which is far more convenient. The gamers will want a real controller (they might still like the grenade throwing, but they will want the physical gun controller).

[Rurouni]

I'd much rather simply point with my index finger and yell "pew pew".

I imagine it would be rather funny if you were surrounded by lots of enemies and only have hand gun available.... pew pew pew pew pew pew pew pew... saliva will be all over the place and probably will be a bit out of breath, and water is mandatory.
I suppose different weapon will use different voice as a trigger, so machine gun would be easier in that situation.... ratatatatatatatatatata... or just a vibrating long rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr :)

[Grall]

Voice-activated firing won't work in a real life gaming situation where there may be stray noise coming from other sources than the player (parents, siblings, other people in the house, radios, TV etc). I'd say voice-activated anything would have relatively high chance of "misfiring" unless you've got your own pad to live in where you can control the soundscape.

Besides, as a gamer, I really can imagine situations a little less embarrassing than screaming commands at my xbox console... :lol:

[Shifty Geezer]

I'd much rather simply point with my index finger and yell "pew pew" (or move my thumb up and down)Neither noise-making nor thumb-wiggling strike me as fabvourable with the hard-core FPS crowd. And tracking a pointing finger isn't possible in the current known implementation of Natal. It has hand position but probably not hand direction and certainly not digit tracking. The resolution probably isn't there to determine an extended finger pointing pretty straight towards the camera, and even if it can determine the extended finger's position, it couldn't accurately determine direction. Perhaps if the arm were kept rigid, the direction of the forearm could be used.

[_phil_]

Isn't tracking fingers simply a question of distance from camera ?

[Shifty Geezer]

I'd have thought so, plus adapting their body tracking to work with hands. I suppose there is the option of someone playing a Natal FPS with an extended-finger gun 50cm from the Natal camera sat on a coffee table. Actually that still shouldn't work. Isn't depth accuracy to 10cm? Nope, having a Google, it's more likely 1cm. That still leaves very little information to derive a direction from though at a distance. Consider you finger pointing slight away from directly at camera. The side of the finger will offer several samples of 1cm accuracy steps from which a direction could be calculated, but there'd be quite some room for error at +/- 1.5 mm. Maybe suitable for target selection, and couple with a degree of auto-aim it may work well, but I'm unconvinced an accurate pointer could be made out of the finger with just the z-camera.

[_phil_]

I think so , but if they are serious about bringing Natal to PC ,they have to develop 2 software fronts.
Skeletton tracking should be useless on pc.

[MfA]

Neither noise-making nor thumb-wiggling strike me as fabvourable with the hard-core FPS crowd.
I think selling a controller-less interface to the hard core FPS crowd is a lost battle from the beginning.

[Shifty Geezer]

I think so , but if they are serious about bringing Natal to PC ,they have to develop 2 software fronts.
Skeletton tracking should be useless on pc.True, but not really applicable to XB360 gaming given the typical XB360 setup.

[ban25]

What exactly did you try ?

Did they have the puppet/mecha out for attendees to "play" ?

I tried the demo suite, which included an object demo (swords, baseball bats, paddles), a body and head tracking demo with first and 3rd person camera angles, and a painting demo. The painting demo was interesting because you can dip the wand into a color palette and the ball on the wand immediately changes to that color. In fact, it smoothly transitions throughout the entire range as you move the wand along the palette.

Controllers are differentiated by color and it does not allow multiple wands to have the same color. The system also identifies conflicting colors in the background and removes those from the available choices. For instance, if you were wearing a blue shirt, it might block out some of the blues to prevent tracking errors.

[ban25]

Additionally, a configurable amount of latency can be added to the input. 0ms feels super responsive and slightly twitchy, while 100ms feels quite laggy. At the lowest latency, there is some prediction going on. I presume they are extrapolating from the vector of the ball, but I didn't ask for details.

[Shifty Geezer]

What's the benefit of adding latency? Movement smoothing?

[ban25]

One more thing, the exposure on the PS Eye can be adjusted based on the situation and requirements for the game. For instance, if a game does not need head-tracking, then the exposure can be adjusted such that only the wand is visible, thereby increasing accuracy.

[ban25]

What's the benefit of adding latency? Movement smoothing?

Yep. I imagine in most cases you would want a small amount of latency to be able to remove jitter.

[Butta]

Wow after reading this article over at Digital Foundry, I am even more interested in Move than before:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-vs-playstation-move-article?page=1

Mod: This is not a vs thread, and this is not neogaf

[patsu]

Someone needs to digest what they have seen and talk about the user benefits. All these technical differences should result in some high level, or even strategic advantages for each of the systems.

[Asher]

Butta: I don't think it's a very comprehensive list. In fact, it seems kind of questionable even if some of it is correct. For instance, I'm pretty sure Natal isn't very sensitive to lighting conditions due to the infrared camera. Inclusions like "no force feedback" and "no controller" in Natal make it sound like it's a "minus" rather than perhaps the entire point of the device. The list essentially makes it sound like PS Move is simply a superset of Natal, which is not the case. They are different.

It basically summarizes Natal as "a camera that tracks players and has a microphone" while PS move gets detailed points for every little feature of the controller (accelerometer, gyroscope, compass, "sub-milimetre precision", etc). It even just casually mentions that the camera can "also do camera and head tracking/recognition of the player", while it's pretty clear that the quality of such tracking would be inferior to the type on Natal.

[Shifty Geezer]

One person had posted this basic comparison of the 3 controllers, could it be considered a fairly accurate comparison:No. It's a hideously slanted misrepresentation as Asher has explained. Natal is much more than described.

[obonicus]

The lighting conditions remark is based off that Cassamassina 'anonymous developer' rumor? Was anyone at that Microsoft event that could possibly confirm/deny what happened on stage, or is it all NDA'd?

[Shifty Geezer]

It's also a flawed comparison because Move is even more sensitive to lighting issues. Yeah, it works in low-light because the camera can track the glowing spheres, but then you introduce noise into head-tracking. And in bright lights the spheres can get lost. The DF article mentions the lighting causing issues. Natal's IR band means no problems with lighting. The rumoured issues don't make sense in light of the technology. If it is having trouble tracking users, it can't be due to lighting. Maybe the hot stage-lights were chucking out lots of IR noise that messed Natal up?

[Butta]

Can anyone think of any way in which dual-wielding could be adapted to Move with 1:1 mapping for left and right hands in a game like Zelda? The main problem is camera and character movement in a 1:1 scenario since motion control is already assigned to left and right hands. Is this type of game impossible given the current setup? I think that out of all game types this genre would make it impossible to resist the Move if feasible. Imagine playing a Zelda style game with 1:1 with shield and sword, bow and arrow, slignshot, hand to hand, ledge grabbing, dual whips, you name it... I don't think anyone could resist it and there would be nothing else to match it on any other platform (if of course the camera and character movement was properly implemented). Not having an analogue nub on the Move controller is a missed opportunity in creating a truly unique gaming experience from what Wii offers today. Furthermore it would remove the need of a subcontroller and help with current multiplayer limitations.

[Lucid_Dreamer]

I thought Natal's lighting was in the "near" IR range. Would that make a difference in tracking depth in heavy lighting? What happens with direct sunlight?

[Silent_Buddha]

Voice-activated firing won't work in a real life gaming situation where there may be stray noise coming from other sources than the player (parents, siblings, other people in the house, radios, TV etc). I'd say voice-activated anything would have relatively high chance of "misfiring" unless you've got your own pad to live in where you can control the soundscape.

Besides, as a gamer, I really can imagine situations a little less embarrassing than screaming commands at my xbox console... :lol:

Noise wouldn't be a problem. Sync in Ford vehicles (voice recognition by Microsoft) doesn't have problems ambient/stray noise as well as multiple people talking.

That said, for a whole host of other reasons, saying pew pew to fire a gun is probably not going to make it into anything other than a possible party/parody game. :)

I do expect games to make use of Voice recognition in Natal for things however.

Regards,
SB

[Silent_Buddha]

Move:
- camera detects X-Y-Z movement, no matter where you're pointing (unless the ball is behind another object)
- accelerometer detects quick directional changes / movements
- gyroscope detects how the Move is being held (roll & pitch)
- compass knows where it's being pointed (yaw)

So when occluded, I'm assuming it'll have to use a timing algorhythm based off accelerometer inputs to try to approximate where the controller "might" be?

So force magnitude + directioin at start. Then Force magnitude at stop. Take those adjust by time between inputs to get approximation of distance. What if there's a slow and gradual drift in movement while occluded? Will it be able to measure that accurately enough?

Granted this should be a small issue with only one person.

Regards,
SB

[Rolf N]

I imagine it would be rather funny if you were surrounded by lots of enemies and only have hand gun available.... pew pew pew pew pew pew pew pew... saliva will be all over the place and probably will be a bit out of breath, and water is mandatory.
I suppose different weapon will use different voice as a trigger, so machine gun would be easier in that situation.... ratatatatatatatatatata... or just a vibrating long rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr :)If you turn the volume loud enough, you will fire your machine gun every time anyone nearby fires a machine gun. It will be a truly collective gaming experience.

[Butta]

Wonder how much memory a voice recognition system could take? With an elaborate library

[NeoTechni]

I thought Butty's comparison was pretty unbiased and accurate. He merely posted known flaws of Natal. I'm surprised he omitted the 200 ms delay * number of players. It's not like he can post more info when it's not known yet. Natal is not much more than "- camera allows body and head tracking of the player, microphone in camera recognizes sounds and voice". That pretty much is it.

I don't think Move is susceptible to lighting conditions since the system is designed to choose the best color of the orb to stick out. We've already seen a demo of it posted working fine in high light conditions despite the debug info's warnings. Yes the face/body tracking is susceptible, but that's part of PSeye not Move. Same for PSeye's voice recognition abilities. But Sony has said PSeye can operate even with just the light from the TV.

[patsu]

I didn't pay attention to the list. Technical/feature differences usually don't make a whole lot of impact. e.g., no controller for Natal could be a benefit. It's more important to understand the end user benefits, advantages, and use cases.

Until Sony and partners can inspire the audience, and demonstrate these convincingly and coherently. It's all a wash in the consumers' eyes. Nintendo has proven themselves, but needs to scale to higher heights.

[dragonelite]

I dont think natal will succeed in the shooter genre at least not without a other input device like sony move. But with the better support of both motion controllers i can see new genres or the more mouse centric pc genres be adapted on consoles.

Dont know how accurate natal is but if the can show finger tracking on E3.
Then the possibility of R.U.S.E first trailer could be possible, you know with the microsoft touchtable. Like pachter said he saw what he believes a product from a the company he almost knows for sure works on natal it was like having a touchscreen without touching the screen.

That where my interest lies in motion control the new potential gaming genres.
We havent really seen on consoles yet. Imaging something like Heavy rain with point and click support. Still we have to see at the price point why would someone that has a Wii just loves to play family games, simple games,etc buy a $300 console+camera+sticks+nunchucks just because those consoles are marketed as a HD Wii.

[patsu]

Sexiest Move game, according to Destructoid:
http://www.destructoid.com/gdc-10-the-best-and-sexiest-move-game-ever-slider-166626.phtml
(gameplay video inside)


Slider is set in Hong Kong. A poor office boss and his lovely secretary are holed up in their office. The bills are overdue and the mafia is out to get them. Their only escape? Office equipment. You'll play as either the boss or the sexy, long-legged secretary, and you'll use an office chair to slide downhill, working to avoid enemies and obstacles.

I asked Slider producer George Weising if anyone used the boss instead of the lovely bun-haired, busty girl. He said, "I do...sometimes."

"Most people don't, though."

...

When you watch the video, look at her face in the upper left corner. Hilarious.

[patsu]

Kotaku has a Socom 4 + Move impression:
http://kotaku.com/5491943/motion+controlled-teabagging-why-socom-fans-shouldnt-fear-move?skyline=true&s=i


the game was originally developed for the Playstation 3's standard controller. They later added in the ability to play the game with Move.

...

Taking the Move controller in my right hand and button-packed sub-controller in my left, I took the game for a short test drive. As McWhertor laid out in his write up of SOCOM 4 with Move, the game uses a thumbstick on the left controller to move around and pointing and aiming with the right to look around and shoot.

Various buttons let you throw grenades, zoom in, reload, fire and sprint. Almost no motions are used besides for aiming. But there's a good chance that could change before release.

Byrne said that the team is looking at a lot of options for adding optional motions into the game to do things like zoom in, run or even... "victory dance."

...

The only thing I wasn't happy with was the turning speed. This would only come into play if I was flanked in a match, something that can happen quite a bit. But Byrne said that the team plans to tweak that. Perhaps, he said, they'll allow gamers to tweak the settings themselves so they can control the turn speed and how far a person has to point away from center of screen to start turning.

...

[suggestion using the light ball for gaming nixed]

..

the ball can change colors up to once a second, so perhaps they could do something with it.


I'd say add a trophy for killing a teabagger caught in action. :yes: (I heard R2 had it but Insomniac took it away before release).

Also, I think horror/adventure games may be more suitable as a platform to toy with the light ball (Forcing you to handle 2 things at once. Heavy Rain uses this technique rather well).

[NeoTechni]

Dont know how accurate natal is but if the can show finger tracking on E3.

I haven't seen it do that though. Anyone got a vid?

Also, for those saying NATAL can use a 360 controller, then it becomes a glorified sixaxis since your arms are stuck to the controller. If MS really wanted to do that, they'd make a device that plugs into 360 Controller charge port, that has a blig glowing ball on it to make it easier (processing power wise) to track.

[liolio]

Take two... even if nobody wants to hear it as far as functionalities are concerned "ps move" is a cumbersome and uncompleted rendition of the wiimote. From one mini game to another you can still play with the wiimote it has a a d-pad button etc, standing the ps3 move "flat" means hiding the light bulb, etc. It's a pretty inelegant solution overall putting whatever natal does or doesn't aside for the warmongers under disguise
I find it pretty funny how a "paralelipedic" design is the better fit to quiet some roles, should give some ergonomists quiet some headaches :lol:

[MfA]

standing the ps3 move "flat" means hiding the light bulb
How exactly do you mean? Flat with the bulb towards your body?

[Shifty Geezer]

I thought Butty's comparison was pretty unbiased and accurate. He merely posted known flaws of Natal.But not the equivalent advantages, nor the equivalent flaws in PS3. eg. The issues with recognition of Natal are based on a rumour, whereas the issues with Move's recognition are documented in DF's preview of Move.

I'm surprised he omitted the 200 ms delay * number of players.Where did you get that figure? Nothing I've seen or read suggests close to half a second latency for multiple players, a latency that's utterly unusable.
It's not like he can post more info when it's not known yet.But the post wasn't balanced in the information it did provide. The several checklist points for Move's components, yet grouping Natal's features to present fewer points, is just part of its imbalance.

Natal is not much more than "- camera allows body and head tracking of the player, microphone in camera recognizes sounds and voice". That pretty much is it.And Move is "a controller that allows hand tracking of the player, camera adds a video feed."

I don't think Move is susceptible to lighting conditions since the system is designed to choose the best color of the orb to stick out.Again, you are showing a lack of understanding of the underlying technologies. Move works with the visible spectrum, with the limitations of cheap camera optics and limited dynamic range of the CCDs. The colour is not the only issue. If I'm playing on a cloudy day and then the clouds open and sunlight streams through the window, it could very well play havok with Move's optical detection. We already have a report of bright lights affecting Move's tracking. I dare say Move is very robust in handling difficult situations, but it'd be foolish to say it's not susceptible to lighting conditions.

[grandmaster]

About Natal and fingers. I asked Kudo Tsunoda about this directly. He said that it would cause problems tracking fingers for people with small hands. Like children for example, a significant proportion of the console audience. I mean, this is the creative director of the entire project giving it to me straight.

So if he is saying that finger tracking is a no-go, and the main R&D man on Move is saying that Natal doesn't track fingers (and I found him to be a refreshingly objective source - as R&D people non-schooled in PR often are), then I can assume it doesn't track fingers. Anton Mikhailhov's comments on how gameplay depth is connected to the hands and fingers was interesting stuff.

The most frustrating thing I've found in Natal and Move is that the tech demos look absolutely amazing on both projects. The upper-body motion tracking on Move was eye-opening stuff. The skeleton tracking on Natal, and how it worked even when body parts were not in camera range, was stunning. And this is just the stuff we've seen. The stuff I've heard about on both projects and what they are being used for is really exciting.

Problem is that in both cases, the actual software I saw didn't live up to the tech demos and the potential. I see it as a situation whereby the game-makers are still adjusting to the new interface and maybe conceptually they're a bit worried about pushing the envelope.

[dragonelite]

Its kinda disappointing to hear natal isn't able to track finger movement.
Had at least hoped it could follow two fingers let say the index and middle finger(gun hand gestures). I can see the casuals use natal for the sports game. But the people who now own a 360 the core gamer are not interested in jumping around making large movement to control the game. The core needs something that can track hands and finger movement while they sit on the couch or floor. They already complain about having to wear glasses with 3D gaming which i don't really see succeeding not this gen atleast not with game support.

And what are the possibilities of microsoft upgrading the hardware like a more accurate camera?

[Shifty Geezer]

Its kinda disappointing to hear natal isn't able to track finger movement.
Had at least hoped it could follow two fingers let say the index and middle finger(rude hand gestures).Fixed! :p
And what are the possibilities of microsoft upgrading the hardware like a more accurate camera?Next gen when the tech has improved. It needs a full-framerate HD CCD working with whatever tech MS are using (time of flight, pattern projection?). The advent of 720p/1080p video capture in mobile devices suggests this isn't too far off, but it's too late for Natal now and will need to wait for the next round.

[patsu]

Problem is that in both cases, the actual software I saw didn't live up to the tech demos and the potential. I see it as a situation whereby the game-makers are still adjusting to the new interface and maybe conceptually they're a bit worried about pushing the envelope.

They need more time. Researching and applying new UI paradigm is a standalone challenge in its own right. Core gamers are accustomed to existing control schemes. Even Wii can't solve that part just yet after 3 or so years. Since the games are HD, the vendors have to make an impressive looking game, and a refreshingly fun game at the same time (to appeal to core gamers).

I think the marketers should still be able to distill their on-going researches and present their findings more succintly instead of letting everything run loose. In the process, they can manage expectation and channel the consumers attention better.

[Shifty Geezer]

They need more time.I disagree. Perhaps I should say I lack your optimism. Sixaxis motion hasn't been used particularly successfully despite plenty of time to develop ideas. Likewise camera-based interfaces haven't come to much. IMO there's a fundamental lack of imagination when it comes to adopting new interfaces, a problem not cured by time. If developers are showing limited interest game ideas now, I doubt we'll see much advance on that in the next 3 years. Maybe the place to look will be indie DD titles?

[dragonelite]

Found this a really interesting video on using the Wii mote for finger tracking.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0awjPUkBXOU

Isn't this guy suppose to work on natal too?
I can already see microsoft releasing a IR reflective handglove:lol:

[patsu]

I disagree. Perhaps I should say I lack your optimism. Sixaxis motion hasn't been used particularly successfully despite plenty of time to develop ideas. Likewise camera-based interfaces haven't come to much. IMO there's a fundamental lack of imagination when it comes to adopting new interfaces, a problem not cured by time. If developers are showing limited interest game ideas now, I doubt we'll see much advance on that in the next 3 years. Maybe the place to look will be indie DD titles?

SIXAXIS has a different problem. It was latched onto an existing controller. That means it has to work with existing control schemes. It's a more difficult and more limited proposition. Nonetheless, we have Flower and Folklore, which justified SIXAXIS' existence in my view.

PSEye is a missed opportunity on the PS3 so far, but at least they came up with sketch recognition which blew my mind. I am still waiting for a simple draw-your-own-Tank game. EyeToy performed well on PS2 but the follow up was lacking on PS3. Eye of Judgment is a superb game, but you could play the same thing with just cards (and people have done so).

For Move, I reckon the difficult parts are:

(1) Integrate and apply it to the existing environment. That's usually the bulk of the work (integration). e.g., the Tennis, Golf and avatar fighting games may be "it". However, they need to do them in a deep and fun way/environment. PS Move, and perhaps Wiimote+ too, seem to open up new possibilities just because they can mimic live actions precisely and accurately. Unfortunately, it is difficult for us to internalize the experience without trying them personally.

(2) Find a common must-solve/painful problem. These would be harder to find. But I think Natal's remote-free control may be "it". On the Move, I think sketch recognition (for media search) is a gem too. Will Sony add it to XMB ? For reference, Home took 1.5 years and *lot's of* user complains to refine their worldmap UI.. Now if they were to consider sketch recognition + media search for the PS3, Sony will also need to add remote file system support to PS3 (more work !).

EDIT:
For finger tracking, I don't think tracking a child's fingers is important for media playback. I'll be very happy if my PS3 ignores my son's gestures, and only tracks my wife's and my fingers. It's all about the context and how you message it -- assuming MS can make adult finger tracking work reliably. I am not convinced this is an age issue.

[cbarcus]

SIXAXIS has a different problem. It was latched onto an existing controller. That means it has to work with existing control schemes. It's a more difficult and more limited proposition. Nonetheless, we have Flower and Folklore, which justified SIXAXIS' existence in my view.


I would add that rising/leaning in SOCOM: Confrontation and precision sniping in Killzone 2 are both killer uses of SIXAXIS, and I would sorely miss the feature if it was now absent.

[Shifty Geezer]

SIXAXIS has a different problem. It was latched onto an existing controller. That means it has to work with existing control schemes. It's a more difficult and more limited proposition. Nonetheless, we have Flower and Folklore, which justified SIXAXIS' existence in my view.There are a few niche titles, but the possibilities haven't been widely adopted. Prior to PS3's release we discussed possible uses in comobination with conventional controls, yet instead we have a couple of motion titles, a couple of titles with motion integrated useful, and a number of hacked-in motion controls that were abandoned (like Uncharted 2's drop of motion). We haven't got motion in FIFA to aid dribbling, or in platformers to determine casual gamers real intentions. So many missed opportunities, and zero progress in that regard. By now, if time is all it needs to really use a new interface, we'd have countless examples. And one can point to Wii too. How much stuff is being invented, and how much is just cribbing Nintendo's ideas?

[patsu]

Wiimote represents the first successful leap in a long history of failures and small successes. It is inevitable for other companies to build on top of it, like how the rest of the world copied the mouse interface and the multi-touch interface.

I'd think Move is competiting with Wiimote+, which is relatively new, and both can do new tricks that were impossible on Wiimote. Besides, Move and Natal can solve other "unique" problems using the camera. Nintendo will have its own focus areas with the Vitality Sensor.

EDIT:
For SIXAXIS, I don't necessarily think it's zero progress. It's meant to enhance the DS3 control schemes, which Move won't be able to capture. Some people/applications just ain't going to move away from DS3.

[patsu]

Kotaku wrapping up their GDC 2010 Move reports with 2 observations:
http://kotaku.com/5492721/two-surprise-playstation-move-maneuvers


The Sony developer pressed the Move's PlayStation button, which produced the console's standard, overlaid menus allowing the player to quit the game. To swipe from a "no" to a "yes" response, the developer waved his Move hand and pressed a button. The game quit. To swipe through the XMB and restart the game, he waved his hand some more.



to make their gladiator taunt, the Sports Champion gamer must put his or her hands behind their back. When that happens, the PlayStation Eye camera that detects and tracks the sphere located at the tip of the Move wand can't see it anymore. The disappearance seems to be the prompt for the taunt.

[grandmaster]

I see Nintendo painting the Move as a "me too" product: http://www.vg247.com/2010/03/13/more-reggie-on-move-im-blushing-im-so-flattered/

It's an interesting spin on things. I mean technically speaking, Move is technologically superior to the Wii MotionPlus and a generation ahead of the original Wiimote. But you play titles like Motion Fighter, The Shoot and even SOCOM 4 and the control schemes *do* feel very, very close to what we're already playing on Wii. SOCOM *felt* uncannily similar to the likes of The Conduit and CoD4 on Wii.

Very interested to see what they do with camera (the augmented reality stuff is excellent) and really hope that the head-tracking in GT5 lives up to the potential of the concept.

[patsu]

I agree with Reggie !

At the same time, I don't think Sony is wrong to copy them. But they are still weak in comparison with Nintendo in motion sensing software (maturity). It is a very difficult (marketing) road to take, not a smart one.

Nonetheless, copying -- or building on top of prior achievements -- is part of innovation (e.g., Natal is a camera-based system like EyeToy). There are things Nintendo would not want to add to their Wiimote, but Sony could (because the audience is different). There are technical direction Sony wants to go where Nintendo shunts.

If we were to leave the mouse up to Apple alone, we would still be stuck with one button mouse today.

EDIT: I also don't think that the copying is detrimental to Nintendo. I think it may endorse and help grow Wii software developer base also -- assuming Sony doesn't screw up Move.

[zed]

If we were to leave the mouse up to Apple alonewell they nicked it from someone else working at xerox.
Reggie looks to be having a hissy tantrum cause once move/natal launches then wii's 'free run' is over. If these 2 new control schemes take off then I expect wiiHD to launch next year

[patsu]

No, the PARC mouse has 3 buttons as far as I can remember. There might be an earlier one with only one button, but Apple's one-button mouse is an Apple thing that they impose until present. I have seen one to three button mouse in the early days, but these days 2-button is the most prevalent.

[Graham]

... The upper-body motion tracking on Move was eye-opening stuff....

From what I've seen, that particular demo was simply 3 point tracking (ie, two hands + head position) - Given the PS3 already has libs for head tracking.

It was impressive, yes, but from what I could see the superimposed 3D model was simply translated into position so the body matched the head position. Although the head did still rotate. The arms were then applying basic inverse kinematics I'd guess. It would also suffer the same lighting issues as EyeToy, probably single player only, occlusion, etc, so I don't expect it to be that widely used.

...

It's interesting there has been no PR whatsoever for Natal. I'm not sure it's a bad thing either, it would have been a very PR noisy GDC otherwise.
I'm assuming E3 will be the big showdown. At which point Nintendo busts out the vitality sensor and wows everyone with 'relaxing games'. :mrgreen:

[Squilliam]

well they nicked it from someone else working at xerox.
Reggie looks to be having a hissy tantrum cause once move/natal launches then wii's 'free run' is over. If these 2 new control schemes take off then I expect wiiHD to launch next year

If as you showed in your NPD graphics the Wii is indeed declining, then that cannot be a good portent for the Sony Move which copies the Wii original concept. If Nintendo does revive the Wiis fortunes once again then it will probably be in a way that Sony cannot initially counter so again they would be playing catchup. Either way its not a good position to be in as a follower.

[Shifty Geezer]

The arms were then applying basic inverse kinematics I'd guess. Yeah, it looked that way to me. The hand positions were tracked perfectly, but the arms were just valid solutions and didn't reflect the player's arm positions. It's a bit much to call it upper-body tracking. More upper-body approximating.

[patsu]

The head is probably some form of Omega Tracking first revealed here:
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1269853

Then, they add the motion controller tracking in parallel.

As long as it maintains the same responsiveness, it would be rather usable.

Gameplay wise, they can't rely on lower body movement. So I guess the developers will have to depend on the same motion controller snappiness to do blocking.

EDIT: Someone mentioned facial recognition or facial expression recognition, but those are sensitive to lighting conditions. Not sure how much they will slow down the whole process.

[Arwin]

t was impressive, yes, but from what I could see the superimposed 3D model was simply translated into position so the body matched the head position. Although the head did still rotate. The arms were then applying basic inverse kinematics I'd guess. It would also suffer the same lighting issues as EyeToy, probably single player only, occlusion, etc, so I don't expect it to be that widely used.

On the other hand, it's virtually lag-free, and that's worth something! If I have been paying attention correctly, it's already used in the Table Tennis game (which I certainly enjoyed) which also seems to support it for two players.

I think that for the most part, inverse kinematics is going to be sufficient. The biggest factor here is how accurate the face-tracking will be versus the tracking of the Move controllers - the face tracking won't be as one-to-one as the hands, and I think that will be its weakest link.

So far though I'm really excited about move. Still can't wait to get it, and I really look forward to seeing what we're getting for E3, where I'm especially also expecting some combinations of Move and 3D (I think this is where the really big guns are, like say a version of MLB the Show in 3D and using the Move combined).

I'm already scheduling the purchase of a 3D TV for 2011. ;)

[Shifty Geezer]

I think that for the most part, inverse kinematics is going to be sufficient.Sure. It's unlikely to be a gameplay changing feature where the arms are. IK will just be used to add convincing looking arms to the avatar. Move with two controllers will be enough for any Mech game, Godzilla/RAMPAGE, pancake flipper, etc. Natal should definitely have the edge in a volleyball game though.

[patsu]

I think the main problem is how Sony messages it. For the most part, I hear developers whined about hardcore games not selling on Wii. Now with Sony committing to motion gaming and throwing their resources into make core gaming mechanics work on the platform, there has to be some upside for Wii game developers and consumers.

Anyway, an "Under Siege" (RTS game) developer posted on GAF:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=20275680&postcount=195


Regarding the Mouse and keyboard and why we don't support it (again).
This was discussed intensely at the offices when we were designing the thing and got cut right at the beginning.

This was not easy since we are big fans of RTSs like "Company of Heroes", "Rise of Legends" and "Generals" (Generals doesn't get the love it deserved) and we can't wait to play Starcraft2, but having a Keyboard and Mouse with you on your sofa or asking everyone to plug in this devices just to play our game doesn't make any sense.

Supporting the Playstation Move was an easy... er... "move"
It makes sense.

Well, if a small game like ours manages to incorporate the Move correctly and make it a fact that RTSs on consoles make sense now, maybe we can expect our favorite developers getting they're games on console.



EDIT:


So far though I'm really excited about move. Still can't wait to get it, and I really look forward to seeing what we're getting for E3, where I'm especially also expecting some combinations of Move and 3D (I think this is where the really big guns are, like say a version of MLB the Show in 3D and using the Move combined).

I'm already scheduling the purchase of a 3D TV for 2011. ;)

If they do a good Avatar "puppetry" mini-game, complete with 3D vision support, and bundle it with the Avatar 3D Blu-ray movie, I will push for 3D monitor/TV at home. Now my plan is only to refresh my office PS3 setup.

[LightHeaven]

Found this a really interesting video on using the Wii mote for finger tracking.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0awjPUkBXOU

Isn't this guy suppose to work on natal too?
I can already see microsoft releasing a IR reflective handglove:lol:

Hmmm, the setup he have there is pretty much how natal track things, using a ir-sensitive camera and a ir projector.

If all Ms needs to allow finger tracking at a greater distance is increasing reflectiveness of your hand than i hope they release natal with some sort of glove to allow that greater precision. And maybe put some buttons on it aswell :P

[Asher]

Hmmm, the setup he have there is pretty much how natal track things, using a ir-sensitive camera and a ir projector.

If all Ms needs to allow finger tracking at a greater distance is increasing reflectiveness of your hand than i hope they release natal with some sort of glove to allow that greater precision. And maybe put some buttons on it aswell :P

Next-generation power-glove...seriously though, there may be something to this.

Use a combined effort of increased IR reflection material with some other sensors to determine things like when you move a finger in a "trigger-like" way. Eg, if your finger makes a trigger-like movement, send that event to the game. As long as it's cheap... :)

[LightHeaven]

I found this video on "project natal" (actually it was 3dv camera) being demoed, on a Ps2, 5 years ago.

Curiously, the demos there look more impressive than waht Ms demoed at E3 last year, at least precision wise. They have a finer painting demo, that looks like the move party painting game, and at the beginning of the video when he is showing the camera view and an overlap with a green background his fingers are clearly visible from a shorter distance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYHr0I-iFHE

[patsu]

Ha ha, that's Dr. Richard Marks. :)

Next-generation power-glove...seriously though, there may be something to this.

Use a combined effort of increased IR reflection material with some other sensors to determine things like when you move a finger in a "trigger-like" way. Eg, if your finger makes a trigger-like movement, send that event to the game. As long as it's cheap... :)

I agree. (http://74.200.65.90/showpost.php?p=1337931&postcount=702)

All 3 vendors should (and will) evolve their current systems, as long as the feedback from the market and partners are positive.
They will have to make cute little gloves for kids too.

[(((interference)))]

But how do you switch out of gun mode and into grenade throwing mode (and back)? How can the system tell you're pointing your squad in a direction and not your weapon? Pointing is only a tiny part of usual game interfaces. It's easy to forget that these interactions or mode shifts need to be triggered in some fashion, one that does not intefere with the pointing function in the ideal case. Making a gesture is a bad trigger action because it invalidates your pointing direction (on the same hand).

How do you even shoot? Even to just pause your game you already need a voice command or fall back on a traditional pad controller, and you're talking about games where you have to simultaneously aim and strafe and shoot and jump and manage a weapon loadout. None of this will be possible ... short of the camera tracking your fingers as they interact with analog sticks and buttons on a controller.

Even the Wii remote, as limiting as it feels a lot of times, has four buttons and a d-pad in immediate reach, and three more buttons for non-time-critical/system interactions. Natal has zero. Expect any games for it to be either simplified to the extreme or rely heavily on voice commands. Neither idea appeals to me at all.

I meant as an addition to the normal controller you could use Natal to do special actions like pointing at places for the AI to take cover or to attack, grenade throwing, those KZ2 style wheel turning interactions etc

And couldn't you use Natal to play RTSs as well? Are we sure it cannot detect pointing, or just pointing with fingers? So maybe pointing with the whole hand is possible?

With regards to image, the Move will definitely be seen as just an incremental improvement over the Wii Motion Plus, with Natal MS has the high ground as it is something not seen before.

This will give them an headstart and marketing advantage (as they were first) next generation as I think controllerless interfaces will be the natural evolution of motion controls and Sony/Nintendo will bring out their own take on 'Natal'

[patsu]

With regards to image, the Move will definitely be seen as just an incremental improvement over the Wii Motion Plus, with Natal MS has the high ground as it is something not seen before.

This will give them an headstart and marketing advantage (as they were first) next generation as I think controllerless interfaces will be the natural evolution of motion controls and Sony/Nintendo will bring out their own take on 'Natal'

You forgot EyeToy, and Dr. Marks' various experiments on camera-based projects (See above).

For marketing advantages, I agree controller-free gaming is more sexy than waggle though (... but it has to be reliable in the wild). MS is likely to at least complete one round of controller-free R&D and deployment before looking at extended natural interfaces with devices (e.g., gloves, split traditional controller).

[patsu]

Destructoid's response about the Socom 4 control scheme:
http://www.destructoid.com/gdc-10-zipper-does-move-control-right-socom-4-hands-on-166913.phtml


The PS Move controls are simple and satisfying. A swing of the wand moves the reticule and pans the over-the-shoulder camera. The large PS button in the center zooms the camera in for tight shots. The trigger underneath it fires weapons.

The digital stick on the sub-controller, which I held in my right hand, moves the character. One of its triggers brings up the squad tactics mode that allows you to order the AI around to locations.



With the PS Move, plotting these courses felt natural. Byrne echoed my gut reaction while I fiddled with the mode. A large third-person RTS reticule, almost like the grenade reticule in Gears of War, pops up allowing you to place characters with ease. The D-pad on the sub-controller allows for quick-swapping between the squads.

From behind the barrier I was able to stop and pop each foe with simple flicks of the digital stick and the brutal and smooth 1:1 accuracy of the PS Move. Byrne made special note of the smoothing during the session as I realized that the reticule wasn’t responding annoyingly to the slightest jitters of my hand.

“What we wanted to do was make sure that we had very high-fidelity movement in broad sweeps,” Byrne told me. “But it was imperative that we don’t have a lot of jitter when the reticule comes to rest. So Mike put in a lot of algorithms to make sure that when you need it to move it moves and when you want it to stop it stops.

That smoothing aspect is really good. It allows you to really get a bead on a guy but be very particular about where you hit them.”


How does CoD for Wii work ? How can Socom 4 offer an edge over DS3 if some say it felt like CoD* on Wii ?

[NeoTechni]

I disagree. Perhaps I should say I lack your optimism.

I agree. It's not that they haven't had enough time, it's that good interfaces simply can't be done on Wii/etc. It didn't take 3 years to learn how to code for the analog stick or dpad. Proper hardware would be easier.

I see Wii like handwriting recognition, only in 3d. And we still don't have 2d hwr properly.

Change for change's sake is not a good thing. Replacing A with a swing of a controller is not innovation, it's novelty.

[liolio]

How exactly do you mean? Flat with the bulb towards your body?
No actually what I meant was that unlike the wiimote you can't hold the "ps move " like a standard pad as you would hide the light bulb. But as I thank more about it's a bit of a non issue as holding the wiimote that way also limit the range of the wiimote capabilities (you can't aim/point).
Overall my point would have been clearer if I only said that a pretty consistent "ps move" limitation vs the wiimote is that it can't act like a pad. That's not negligible it limits its use in game like a platformer (just an exemple) as you would need to switch controler while playing (say that are mini games/etc.). Nintendo solution still has its merits imho.

[MfA]

No actually what I meant was that unlike the wiimote you can't hold the "ps move " like a standard pad as you would hide the light bulb.
I still don't see it, lets say holding it like a standard pad means holding it at 45 degree angle with the bulb pointing towards the screen. With the camera on top of the display I don't see how the bulb could be obscured.

[goonergaz]

at least they came up with sketch recognition which blew my mind. I am still waiting for a simple draw-your-own-Tank game.

Tell me about it. Even as a free tech demo - how cool would that be!?

[ShadowRunner]

No actually what I meant was that unlike the wiimote you can't hold the "ps move " like a standard pad as you would hide the light bulb. But as I thank more about it's a bit of a non issue as holding the wiimote that way also limit the range of the wiimote capabilities (you can't aim/point).
Overall my point would have been clearer if I only said that a pretty consistent "ps move" limitation vs the wiimote is that it can't act like a pad. That's not negligible it limits its use in game like a platformer (just an exemple) as you would need to switch controler while playing (say that are mini games/etc.). Nintendo solution still has its merits imho.

Its a bit of a non-issue realy. Firstly you already have a DS3 for games that use a pad, the only reason Wii controller is used as a pad is because a classic pad doesnt come with it as standard. Secondly there is no analogue/dpad on move so it would be pretty useless using it as a normal pad anyhow. Lastly, in terms of the bulb, its not needed to be in view to work it just means the absolute position will drift over time which may or may not be important depending on game. A Move without the bulb is essentially the same as a Wiimotion+ without view of the sensor bar. This could actually be cosidered a strong point for move rather than a negative as u suggest, the bulb is much less likely to be obscured from the cameras view than the sensor bar is to the wiimote.

[Rolf N]

Looking at that Destructoid link and the last couple pages, the apparent lack of hands-on experience with Wii fps controls among press and gamers surprises me. It's one of the key strengths of the Wii platform, it's best traditional game genre quite possibly. How it can still be an alien concept so far into this gen, I don't understand.

I've heard concerns raised about max turning speed, which is less of a problem than on thumbsticks. Just look at how much you can incline your wrist and compare that to the working angle of a thumbstick. A pointer controller gives you more range to work with from the get go, and either scheme is usually subject to user tweaking anyway. Sensitivity options are everywhere. This is not a problem in practice.

[goonergaz]

Looking at that Destructoid link and the last couple pages, the apparent lack of hands-on experience with Wii fps controls among press and gamers surprises me. It's one of the key strengths of the Wii platform, it's best traditional game genre quite possibly. How it can still be an alien concept so far into this gen, I don't understand.

Because most Wii owners don't play FPS games on the console? I think most of the games that sell are party/mario games.

I tried playing Dead Rising (OK not an FPS) and OMG was it awful and clunky! I had such high hopes for the control system but (for me) it just didn't work very well.

[patsu]

Looking at that Destructoid link and the last couple pages, the apparent lack of hands-on experience with Wii fps controls among press and gamers surprises me. It's one of the key strengths of the Wii platform, it's best traditional game genre quite possibly. How it can still be an alien concept so far into this gen, I don't understand.

I've heard concerns raised about max turning speed, which is less of a problem than on thumbsticks. Just look at how much you can incline your wrist and compare that to the working angle of a thumbstick. A pointer controller gives you more range to work with from the get go, and either scheme is usually subject to user tweaking anyway. Sensitivity options are everywhere. This is not a problem in practice.

Rolf, how does the Wii FPS control scheme work ? Do you have a good example ? Just want to understand the differences.

[Rolf N]

Rolf, how does the Wii FPS control scheme work ? Do you have a good example ? Just want to understand the differences.To get the easy stuff out of the way, the nunchuk is used exactly like your left analog stick on a pad, plus iron sights mode on the Z button.

The IR pointer and its distance from the center of the screen is used like a hybrid between a joystick and a mouse cursor. The default scheme usually includes a rectangular "dead zone" area in the middle of screen, where you point and shoot, like a lightgun with a visible on-screen reticule, while the camera stays static. The dead zone can occupy up to a quarter of the screen.

Once you move the cursor outside this dead zone, the camera starts to turn in the corresponding direction, faster the further you point away from the center. This differs from a mouse setup insofar as it's all relative movement. The turning continues for as long as you point outside the dead zone. Or in other words, outside the dead zone, it controls the camera exactly like your right thumbstick would. Inside, you can "point and click" while the camera stays still.

This is the default setup for virtually every Wii fps since Red Steel. Medal Of Honor and Call Of Duty games are more recent refinements.

Metroid Prime: Corruption offers an "Advanced" control option that completely eliminates the dead zone. When you use this, unless you point to the exact center of the screen at all times, the camera always turns, proportionally to the distance from center of the spot you're pointing at. This is the setup I personally like the best. It avoids situations where you need go back and forth between your intended target and a dead zone edge just to tug the camera along.

One thing to keep in mind is that Wii remote pointing is not physically precise. You do not actually hit where you point in living-room space, barring extensive calibration (which most games don't even offer). Even so, it's easy to adapt, since you always get the reticule and camera reaction as feedback. The game shows you where its neutral center position is. You associate that with a position of your hand and work out the rest in a relative fashion.

[goonergaz]

I guess you only have to play any Wii game (like the Wii play titles) to realise how the pointing works...the stick acts as the DS3 left stick - but with DR it just felt 'wrong' - have you tried DR at all?

With Move, are we saying it's accurate to the point you actually aim your 'wand' at the thing you want to shoot?

WRT the turning speed, could you not just use the stick for slow/normal turn and a flick of the wrist for a faster turn?

[patsu]

What's DR ?

EDIT: nvm. Dead Rising.

If DR does not have a good control scheme implementation, then people will just ignore it and imitate the good ones.

[NeoTechni]

With Move, are we saying it's accurate to the point you actually aim your 'wand' at the thing you want to shoot?


Neither Wii, NATAL, nor Move are that accurate. You aim at a sensor bar/camera, not the TV.

The best all 3 can do, is a calibration. Where they tell you to point at the top left corner of your TV, the bottom right corner, and it uses that to guess where you're pointing.

If Sony/MS were smart, they'd have you enter the position/size/camera location/etc of your TV into the system menu and it get it over with

[Danalys]

Move can be more accurate than a light gun because of the absolute positioning data. If you can calibrate it so it knows where the pointer is in relation to the TV. The torch demo was a good example of this. It was like pointing a torch through a virtual window at the TVs surface into a virtual room. They could make light gun games where the closer to the TV you were the more likely you were to get shot, or port Police 24/7.

[NeoTechni]

or port Police 24/7.

The PS2 version supported a camera that handled it already.

[goonergaz]

Move can be more accurate than a light gun because of the absolute positioning data. If you can calibrate it so it knows where the pointer is in relation to the TV. The torch demo was a good example of this. It was like pointing a torch through a virtual window at the TVs surface into a virtual room. They could make light gun games where the closer to the TV you were the more likely you were to get shot, or port Police 24/7.

This was my thoughts - I may have a fuzzy memory, but I had Mad Dog on the CDi and IIRC the accuracy was fairly good - and you aimed your gun to where you wanted to shoot on screen.

[Arwin]

Move can be more accurate than a light gun because of the absolute positioning data. If you can calibrate it so it knows where the pointer is in relation to the TV. The torch demo was a good example of this. It was like pointing a torch through a virtual window at the TVs surface into a virtual room. They could make light gun games where the closer to the TV you were the more likely you were to get shot, or port Police 24/7.

Agreed - pointing is very precise and should work as well as or better than any lightgun (which you always need to calibrate, by the way - I've got all PS1 and Ps2 GunCons). Also from my understanding, there are several aspects to Move that help not needing to recalibrate very often either. The demoes on the GDC show floor that did use calibration actually used it to determine the dimensions of the player, apparently.

[Rolf N]

CRT light-guns can be very precise even without calibration. The sensor detects the exact moment in time where the phosphors light up as the electron beam passes by, and can compute the corresponding spot on the screen with pinpoint precision.

CRTs are dead though, and current display tech is incompatible with traditional light guns.

[goonergaz]

CRT light-guns can be very precise even without calibration. The sensor detects the exact moment in time where the phosphors light up as the electron beam passes by, and can compute the corresponding spot on the screen with pinpoint precision.

CRTs are dead though, and current display tech is incompatible with traditional light guns.

The CDi lightgun used a similar thing to the Wii-bar and was infrared - it sat on top of the TV, I assume the PSeye will do the same job but with added information (distance from screen for example).

[Gradthrawn]

Might be worth a look (http://www.joystiq.com/2010/03/16/go-behind-the-tech-of-playstation-move-at-the-engadget-show-this/) this Saturday.

The Engadget Show is teaming up with Joystiq's very own Chris Grant this Saturday in a brand new episode that features the newly unveiled PlayStation Move motion controller. Sony's Richard Marks will take the stage, bringing some brand new tech demos that highlight what the controller is capable of.

[Danalys]

Agreed - pointing is very precise and should work as well as or better than any lightgun (which you always need to calibrate, by the way - I've got all PS1 and Ps2 GunCons). Also from my understanding, there are several aspects to Move that help not needing to recalibrate very often either. The demoes on the GDC show floor that did use calibration actually used it to determine the dimensions of the player, apparently.

Hopefully you can just calibrate once just so it knows where your TV is and how large it is and it's relative position to the Eye. But considering I still need to select my preferred language at times I don't assume this will be the case. It was annoying having to calibrate light gun games at start up all the time. It interferers with their pick up and play appeal.

[Asher]

ArsTechnica has a good article on the PS Move: http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2010/03/playstation-move.ars

[MfA]

CRT light-guns can be very precise even without calibration. The sensor detects the exact moment in time where the phosphors light up as the electron beam passes by, and can compute the corresponding spot on the screen with pinpoint precision.

CRTs are dead though, and current display tech is incompatible with traditional light guns.
It really doesn't cost much to put a "low resolution" camera in a lightgun. Then you just program the game to put an easily identifiable border on the display (identifiable for the image processing algorithm, it doesn't have to be intrusive for the player). At which point you can determine the exact direction of the light gun relative to the screen quite easily, and without needing physical reference points on multiple axis (if Nintendo had used two sensor bars above and below the screen it would have had very high accuracy as well). Without calibration even.

Well it wouldn't cost much if it wasn't for patents ...

[patsu]

Cool ! Article reflects the me-too sentiments really well. The immature software and lack of excitement/surprises are good feedback as well. Sony should take all these responses to heart. They need to do more than PR to overcome these issues.

But I don't think Sony has shown its all its deck yet. On hind sight, I think the GDC exposure is useful for them to solicit real feedback. It would be a huge disaster if they reveal these in E3 2010. It would be silly if they show the same thing again there. ^_^

I am actually surprised by the positive note on Socom 4 and Augmented Reality (whatever game that is) in the article. Perhaps, they need to build their momentum around the good stuff.

Personally I hope to see more than raw motion sensing use alone. e.g.,

* The puppetry demo is my top pick but they need to dress it up with a real game, and please show intricate finger controls (more than just 5-finger grip) with button combos. Show me how the setup are _fun_ or useful for games and non-games.

* EyePet -- should focus more on AI (recognitions) rather than motion sensing. The sing-along, sketch recognitions are both wow-worthy.

* Hardcore gaming mechanics (Socom 4, MLB The Show, RTS, driving game like GT5). Please show *real* advantages quantitatively if there is indeed a balancing issue in Socom 4 due to superior waggle mechanics.


What I didn't see:

* The user generated content (Specifically, LittleBigPlanet and Modnation Racer demoes).

* Media management and viewing in XMB non-games and games (e.g., search for songs in SingStar, Rockband by humming, search for photos using sketches, ...)

* Educational titles (What about spelling recognition in EyePet or other games)


Finally,

* Would be nice to have everything together: 3DTV + waggle + AI.

Tall order, yes. But Sony needs to get there to impress, or be on par with Nintendo and MS.


EDIT: They'll also need household brands to help support their concept. Nintendo already has endorsement from the public. MS presented to the toy and women press a few weeks ago, they would have relevant/make-shift prototypes and endorsement from these people by E3.

[thop]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0puP8nrIU8

Surprisingly direct remarks about the competition. This will be interesting.

[Shifty Geezer]

Surprisingly direct remarks about the competition. This will be interesting.Not too interesting, I hope. If that guy were a member of B3D I'd slap him with a trolling infraction! For those who haven't viewed the link, it's a Sony promotional video for Move with their character VP, Kevin Butler, extolling the virtues of Move with digs at the rivals.

[Gradthrawn]

Not too interesting, I hope. If that guy were a member of B3D I'd slap him with a trolling infraction!

You can't slap the VP of War (http://blog.us.playstation.com/2010/03/09/it-only-does-epic-trilogies/). You just cant. :lol:

[Arwin]

Not too interesting, I hope. If that guy were a member of B3D I'd slap him with a trolling infraction! For those who haven't viewed the link, it's a Sony promotional video for Move with their character VP, Kevin Butler, extolling the virtues of Move with digs at the rivals.

It made me think of Reggie ... In terms of marketing, I think commercials like this are good pre-emptive strikes for what you can guarantee will come from the competitors (and in fact already has).

[patsu]

You can't slap the VP of War (http://blog.us.playstation.com/2010/03/09/it-only-does-epic-trilogies/). You just cant. :lol:

:lol: The best one yet.

My wife will find it very familiar.

[liolio]

DF article about ps move latency is up:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-vs-playstation-move-article

[Arwin]

DF article about ps move latency is up:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-vs-playstation-move-article

Not the best DF article, but I can understand wanting to get it out asap. ;) (it was up yesterday)
EDIT: there's an update now

It triggered me to think about this myself, and this is what I came up with. Anyone want to help check this/make it more precise? Maybe RL/grandmaster can use it for the follo- up article. ;)

EDIT: when the article specifically says '133ms controller lag', that still refers to the lag in the complete pipeline. It's more interesting to speculate what the move adds, probably.

What we are looking at here is this:

1 The camera sends its picture data to the PS3 over the USB connector
2 The wand sends movement and position data to the PS3 over the BlueTooth wireless signal (based on its magnetometer, gyroscope, accelerometers and whatnot.]

(1) and (2) happen in paralel

3 The video input from the USB camera is streamed to the SPE that analyses the signal for the Move controller's led
4 The results of the analysis is used to enhance the precision of the signal from the Move controller

(4) is extra, and is what Sony is talking about when it says it can typically do this within one frame, I'm fairly sure

5 The video input is streamed on towards a framebuffer on the graphics memory
6 The graphics engine receives the controller input from the SPE and uses it to determine the location of the sword
7 The graphics engine renders the sword

(5) is probably done in paralel to (6) and (7)

(6) is the location where controller smoothing will typically be implemented, potentially adding some lag

8 The sword and video input are combined into a framebuffer
9 The framebuffer is switched to become the active displayed image on the screen

How the lag that is purely added by the Move controller is experienced will eventually depend on the functionality that is used inside the Move controller and the time it takes for the camera to grab an image to the SPE returning positional data from it that can be combined with the Move controller's input (1),(3) en (4)

Additional lag can happen in the smoothing fase (6)

The minimum amount of lag from the Move controller is probably in the 22ms ballpark as suggested by the screenshot posted earlier on in the comments.

How much this differs from, say, getting input from the analog stick of a dualshock3 controller I don't know off the top of my head, but there will be a difference, maybe 16ms or something similar?

Also interesting to note is that the button inputs may not be influenced by the input of the camera. This depends on how the threading and data stream model of the driver works, and that is currently anyone's guess I think.

[Lucid_Dreamer]

Grandmaster can still post a correction to the article, like he did to the Saboteur AA article; if he wants to. I'm sure he will, at least, post a clarification at the top of the article. Grandmaster isn't the type to let his readers be confused, when it's easily remedied.

[_phil_]

the 1spu treatment of the signals sent by the move is done in about 22 ms for 4 controlers.There shouldn't be much troubles with lag on finished products.

[Crossbar]

the 1spu treatment of the signals sent by the move is done in about 22 ms for 4 controlers.There shouldn't be much troubles with lag on finished products.

Interesting.

Playstation Eye delivers either 60 or 120 fps, which results in a max frame delay of 16 or 8 ms, then we have the USB transfer delay which with a worst case assumption has a delay of 16 resp. 8 ms.

So a worst case delay when running the PSEye at 640x480 resolution would be 22 + 16 + 16 = 54 ms. But that is when asuming the camera is max asynch with the app and the USB is saturated, on average the delay would likely be more like 22 + 16/2 (average asynch) + 16 - 4 (USB safety margin) = 42 ms. I think that is still pretty conservative.

[Arwin]

Grandmaster can still post a correction to the article, like he did to the Saboteur AA article; if he wants to. I'm sure he will, at least, post a clarification at the top of the article. Grandmaster isn't the type to let his readers be confused, when it's easily remedied.

Correct, he's changed it now. ;)

One interesting aspect here I think is that USB camera-capture-to-framebuffer-display lag may actually be higher than the lag of the Move input method for augmented reality games, so that the drawing of the rendered sword may actually be slowed to match the video-feed.

Also, the movement of the sword here is probably smoothed out to prevent excessive jittering.

[patsu]

the 1spu treatment of the signals sent by the move is done in about 22 ms for 4 controlers.There shouldn't be much troubles with lag on finished products.

_phil_, in the average and worst cases, how much of the 1 SPU is used ? Does the Omega tracking run on the same SPU as well or is the head tracking load balanced out to multiple SPUs ?

EDIT: In general, it should be very very quick for an SPU to run through the color data. The problem should be I/O bound right ?

[patsu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0puP8nrIU8

Surprisingly direct remarks about the competition. This will be interesting.

I just saw this. It's cheeky but won't do a thing to all 3 vendors.

[obonicus]

It's strictly for people who at least are aware of the Great Motion War.

[scently]

That's some pretty direct references.
A really bold move (no puns intended) from Sony.

[Crossbar]

One interesting aspect here I think is that USB camera-capture-to-framebuffer-display lag may actually be higher than the lag of the Move input method for augmented reality games, so that the drawing of the rendered sword may actually be slowed to match the video-feed.
You are assuming the bluetooth communication carrying accelerometer data is faster than the video feed from the PSeye, right? Quite possibly.

[Shifty Geezer]

You are assuming the bluetooth communication carrying accelerometer data is faster than the video feed from the PSeye, right? Quite possibly.I think simply due to data volume. The MEMS data is a few values, whereas the camera data is a video feed that's going to take some ms to stream, irrespective of communication protocols (Blue Tooth vs. USB).

[_phil_]

_phil_, in the average and worst cases, how much of the 1 SPU is used ? Does the Omega tracking run on the same SPU as well or is the head tracking load balanced out to multiple SPUs ?

EDIT: In general, it should be very very quick for an SPU to run through the color data. The problem should be I/O bound right ?

IO delay for Move(blutooth) is the same as DS3.

I guess developpers are free to parallelise the treatment if needed.Head tracking and face recognition are independant of move tracking.
Just for move tracking there shouldn't be more than 22ms+ BT transfer in an ideal world.
That would be perfectly under a frame.

[patsu]

I got you, but is the head tracking done on the same SPU as the Move tracking stuff. It sounds like those PSEye tasks are run off a different SPU "kernel" or a pool of them. That way you can scale the framework based on needs.

[AzBat]

Some pretty interesting comments from Sega's Mike Hayes about both PS Move & MS Natal...

Part 1
http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=239411

Part 2
http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=239570

BTW, they did say they will have a Natal demo at E3.

Tommy McClain

[Silent_Buddha]

DF article about ps move latency is up:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-vs-playstation-move-article

Very interesting... From Sony's Mikhailov...

"The tracking precision is in the order of millimetres. The tracking distance is about 10 feet from the camera; we have a very wide range," he shares. "The camera's field of view is 75 degrees so you can easily fit one player comfortably and two players as well.

So basically PS3 Move games will be limited to 2 players, so unlikely for 4 player party type games.

This looks like a limitation of having the camera viewing the players rather than Wii with the infrared camera/sensor being located in the controller. So no matter how many people, the IR sensors in the Wii controller will be able to see the IR emitters near the TV. While with PS3 Move (and Natal also) you're much more limited in where people have to stand in order to be visible to the camera.

So that would go a ways to explaining why MS might be limiting Natal to 2 players rather than the previous 4 mentioned at the last E3.

That being the case, it doesn't look like either Sony or MS will be challening Wii in the 4 player party game market segment.

Regards,
SB

[patsu]

Move can support 4 players using the motion controller, and 2 players using the motion controller + subcontroller.

Games like Buzz don't require the players to move around. So 4 players -- if you are going to pay for 4 separate motion controllers -- should be possible.

For motion games, I suspect most living rooms can only accommodate 2 people swinging around (if they don't want to get punched or kicked).

[Crossbar]

Some pretty interesting comments from Sega's Mike Hayes about both PS Move & MS Natal...

Interesting indeed.
If you look at how many Xbox 360s or PS3s there in Europe - let's say 12 million of each - if they get an attached rated of 12-and-a-half per cent with these [motion] devices, that's 2.5 million consumers for us to go after. If ten per cent of those buy our games, that's 250,000. How much money can you realistically spend on development for that audience?

But Microsoft and Sony are talking very big numbers. If they can achieve that, it will make these devices very viable. Could sales of Natal hit 50 per cent of those current installed base? We think the price point will be very attractive. 360 has a long way to go with a lot more hardware - so, for example, if they were to bundle Natal, it's a home run if they can afford to do that. I would imagine both Microsoft and Sony are going to spend big development money to make these devices very attractive.

[Crossbar]

Move can support 4 players using the motion controller, and 2 players using the motion controller + subcontroller.

Games like Buzz don't require the players to move around. So 4 players -- if you are going to pay for 4 separate motion controllers -- should be possible.

For motion games, I suspect most living rooms can only accommodate 2 people swinging around (if they don't want to get punched or kicked).

75 degree which is the wide lense setting of the PS Eye is probably about as wide as you can go without starting to distort the image. Still that is a pretty wide area, just 3 meters away from the camera you get a range of 4.6 m, that is plenty of space for four people lined up in the sofas and chairs each with a Move in their hand.

As you say when you have more motion intensive games involving both hands and the whole body I think many living rooms will find it hard to contain more than two players within the camera view, so it is probably a calculated restriction by Sony and possibly MS.

[patsu]

Interesting indeed.

But Microsoft and Sony are talking very big numbers. If they can achieve that, it will make these devices very viable. Could sales of Natal hit 50 per cent of those current installed base? We think the price point will be very attractive. 360 has a long way to go with a lot more hardware - so, for example, if they were to bundle Natal, it's a home run if they can afford to do that. I would imagine both Microsoft and Sony are going to spend big development money to make these devices very attractive.

If Sony tries to skim the market (set high price for new controller), then they may risk having another PSPGo backlash while the Move software are not mature yet, during the first 2 years.

It depends on whether they have a catchy concept and WiiSports/WiiFit class title to drive the demand.

[NeoTechni]

Its funny that they had to slow the footage down to see the lag for Move, but Natal you can see tons of lag in full speed

[liolio]

Its funny that they had to slow the footage down to see the lag for Move, but Natal you can see tons of lag in full speed
Plain troll reported by the way... It's easy to spot lag on vids at full speed there have been article on the matter before the DF article.

By the way putting trolls aside it's the main problem with Sony and Ms technology once you try to do one on one motion mapping and that you have an avatar mimicking your move you're brain tolerance to lag become really low. I've a feeling that even 100ms (which is considered good while playing with a pad) is still too easily noticeable when you do motion mapping.

[patsu]

I didn't read MS claiming true 1-to-1 mapping. Only Nintendo and Sony stated that in their marketing material.

Also, I do not think 1-to-1 mapping means laggy or full body tracking. PS Move doesn't do that. All it tracks are the controller movement, orientation, and absolute position. There is no skeleton building for these data.

For a start, Natal may be going after a different experience. It's not clear if 1-to-1 mapping is important to their titles (Probably not since the games will be designed around the device's strengths). If they need 1-to-1 tracking, they can always introduce a controller/device as well.

[liolio]

I didn't read MS claiming true 1-to-1 mapping. Only Nintendo and Sony stated that in their marketing material.

Also, I do not think 1-to-1 mapping means laggy or full body tracking. PS Move doesn't do that. All it tracks is the controller movement.

For a start, Natal may be going after a different experience. It's not clear if 1-to-1 mapping is important to their titles (Probably not since the games will be designed around the device's strengths). If they need 1-to-1 tracking, they can always introduce a controller/device as well.
For me it's not about processing time it's about perception, whether it's accurately tracked or not.
If you make move an avatar or see yourself in a "augmented reality set-up" you're brain is going to react in shaper manner to lag. It's my POV not a scientific fact but I think that you brain for the action like moving an arm is simply used to "no lag at all", large movement (like moving arm) makes the issue worse imho. An example of this could be musical instrument, I'm sure I would find unbearable to play guitar set-up inducing as much as a 100 ms lag.

[NeoTechni]

Plain troll reported by the way...

Eh? So pointing out Move's lag is fine, but Natal's = trolling?

[patsu]

For me it's not about processing time it's about perception, whether it's accurately tracked or not.
If you make move an avatar or see yourself in a "augmented reality set-up" you're brain is going to react in shaper manner to lag. It's my POV not a scientific fact but I think that you brain for the action like moving an arm is simply used to "no lag at all", large movement (like moving arm) makes the issue worse imho. An example of this could be musical instrument, I'm sure I would find unbearable to play guitar set-up inducing as much as a 100 ms lag.

Yes, the perception can be mitigated in the game though. People seem to like Wiimote+ Tennis more than Wiimote Tennis. This implies that there are room for such a device and game. I think Golf and Ping Pong may be fun too.

For your musical instrument example, it depends on how you do it. In the Move case, DemoCoder mentioned that the actual reaction is snappy, but the visual response lags a little. The simple solution is not to show you playing on screen. You need to focus on the scores anyway. The system doesn't have to track full body motion for a piano or drum playing game. Yamaha sells MIDI instruments + digital scores and will sychronize the orchestra with your playing. That's some form of augmented reality to me too. ^_^

[Rangers]

So, can eyetoy mimic Natal, given some of Sony's demos seem to lean that way?

I'm guessing technologically no. It doesn't have full 3D perception, right?

[patsu]

Depends on what you want to do. The flailing body demo is doable because IMHO, 3D tracking isn't that important to the player in that game. The concept started on EyeToy anyway. Essentially, in cases where precision is not required, you can approximate the tracking.

The problem is lighting.

PS Move addresses that, plus focuses on precise and responsive upper limbs tracking (or rather controller tracking). The key idea is the "(subconscious) connection" between the user and the system, like WYSIWYG. Natal focuses on the convenience, cost and generality of camera-based tracking. As technology improves, camera-based tracking will become more and more important/useful. Now, it's not so clear because of current limitations (slow and large granularity). It does allow developers to focus on a totally new area of gaming without controllers, beyond EyeToy and PS Eye.

I reckon that both camera-based and sensor-based systems are valuable. The vendors will end up doing both in the future.

What's interesting eventually may be the middleware (e.g., New UI widgets, all sorts of recognition based on sensor and camera data, semantic databases to aid/simplify natural interfaces, etc.). It's like after Cell, Sony has SPURS scheduling, SPU culling, Omega tracking, high performance AA, nAo32, etc. These innovations allow developers to build GT5, GoW3, U2 and KZ2. While Cell scared developers away, the "reusable software" empowered them to tap on Cell.

[patsu]

Second Sight: PSP Augmented Reality
http://www.siliconera.com/2010/03/19/psp-augmented-reality-program-used-as-an-educational-tool/

-6K4GPeLjsE

It's like the Lego visualizer in their stores today.

[NeoTechni]

That's fricken amazing, too bad Sony hasn't really used PSPs camera much, or released it overseas...

Sony seems to have problems with using their ideas to the fullest...

Another example, PSN on PSP.

[patsu]

Might be worth a look (http://www.joystiq.com/2010/03/16/go-behind-the-tech-of-playstation-move-at-the-engadget-show-this/) this Saturday.

Jack Tretton will be on Spike this Friday to talk about Move according to this:
http://www.gametrailers.com/images/skyscaper_GTTV_308.jpg

He needs to articulate the original idea and vision behind PS Move (+ PS Eye) !

[Refreshment]

Greetings to the inhabitants of this topic :)

These days im slow with my vidgames news feed, lets say, im on an "information diet" :) So Sony made the grand reveal for its motion solution at GDC.

So anyways, been searching information of some specific features/characterstics of the device but can't find any. Im interested in the following:

Weight, does it rumble, are all buttons analog, whats the battery solution used. Same questions apply for the companion "nunchuk" style controller, plus adding others like if the thumbstick in the device has a digital click and if it features adittional MEMS sensors like acelerometers or gyros.

Theres more but thats what came through my mind while making this message. If anyone has picked this info please share it. Maybe i didnt search enough :)

Thanks for the time.

[Crossbar]

Might be worth a look (http://www.joystiq.com/2010/03/16/go-behind-the-tech-of-playstation-move-at-the-engadget-show-this/) this Saturday.

Watched the show and yeah I was pretty blown away.

The minority report thing has so far been pretty much reserved Natal territory, but after this demo I can see there are benefits of controlers even in that space. Pretty impressive demo in my opinion.

Patsu were concerned that Sony may set a high price of Move to skimm the market, after listening to Richard Marks comparison to the old EyeToy and its market share I am pretty convinced that Move will be priced competetively to gain a large market share fast. Of course it´s not just a price thing they also need some compelling software to bundle. E3 will be really interesting this year.

[patsu]

Watched the show and yeah I was pretty blown away.


Hah, so the signal-to-noise ratio is high ? I'll try to look for a recording online then.


The minority report thing has so far been pretty much reserved Natal territory, but after this demo I can see there are benefits of controlers even in that space. Pretty impressive demo in my opinion.

Patsu were concerned that Sony may set a high price of Move to skimm the market, after listening to Richard Marks comparison to the old EyeToy and its market share I am pretty convinced that Move will be priced competetively to gain a large market share fast. Of course it´s not just a price thing they also need some compelling software to bundle. E3 will be really interesting this year.

I'll believe it when I see the price tag (mainly because they have to sustain the free online service too, at this point anyway). CE manufacturers have this habit of getting strung by hard numbers. It is in their DNA to obey those accounting sheets (because a mistake could cost the entire company). For better or worse, Kutaragi is a very rare exception.

[thop]

The problem with the tech demos is that most require two motion controllers, when it only ships with one.

Anyway, Tretton talks about the competition :grin:

If you really want to get involved in playing with a camera I suggest you go out and buy a $99 PlayStation 2 and play some of the great technology we invented eight years ago.
http://www.gametrailers.com/episode/gametrailers-tv/88?ch=1&sd=1

[liolio]

Yes, the perception can be mitigated in the game though. People seem to like Wiimote+ Tennis more than Wiimote Tennis. This implies that there are room for such a device and game. I think Golf and Ping Pong may be fun too.
Possibly may be you simply got used to it.

For your musical instrument example, it depends on how you do it. In the Move case, DemoCoder mentioned that the actual reaction is snappy, but the visual response lags a little. The simple solution is not to show you playing on screen.You put it really nice as long as you have a reference you will notice lag easily.
You need to focus on the scores anyway. The system doesn't have to track full body motion for a piano or drum playing game. Yamaha sells MIDI instruments + digital scores and will synchronize the orchestra with your playing. That's some form of augmented reality to me too. ^_^I know but average lag for digital music gear is way lower than for video games.
Overall the advantage of ps move and wii mote is that it's still a controller motion mapping is not mandatory as an input. For natal it could get tricky to use body input to control a character without doing motion mapping, who knows devs may prove creative but overall I would not put much penny on it.

[ShadowRunner]

Watched the show and yeah I was pretty blown away.

The minority report thing has so far been pretty much reserved Natal territory, but after this demo I can see there are benefits of controlers even in that space. Pretty impressive demo in my opinion.

Patsu were concerned that Sony may set a high price of Move to skimm the market, after listening to Richard Marks comparison to the old EyeToy and its market share I am pretty convinced that Move will be priced competetively to gain a large market share fast. Of course it´s not just a price thing they also need some compelling software to bundle. E3 will be really interesting this year.

Yep i found the minority report interface really cool too, especially if it was knocked up the night before like they said. In other news Rolf Harris game confirmed :lol:

Interesting about the lag, he said it was the tv adding all lag above 22ms hopefully someone can match make of tv to the lag shown in the video and see whats going on here.


Edit:
Also had an idea for movement in a game that uses 2 wands like the robot demo. Simply use the pointer functionality and use trigger to move in direction of pointer like Heavy Rain. Could work well in an slower paced oblivion type game. Feel like posting up on playtations new share site. wil wait until im sober tho lol

[Refreshment]

Also had an idea for movement in a game that uses 2 wands like the robot demo. Simply use the pointer functionality and use trigger to move in direction of pointer like Heavy Rain. Could work well in an slower paced oblivion type game. Feel like posting up on playtations new share site. wil wait until im sober tho lol
Wouldnt be a problem since thats have been done. :) IIRC at some point StarFox for Gamecube handled movement that way. Lateral movement or strafing would be tricky, might be achieved by a rotational movement of the wand.

Found a page with the mayority of information i needed. Altough it doesnt answer the use of sensors or not in the subcontroller. For those that might be interested:

http://us.playstation.com/ps3/access...cph-98061.html

[patsu]

Possibly may be you simply got used to it.


Actually, that's from people's account. I haven't tried it at all. Here's Peter Moore's comment:
http://www.sportingnews.com/blog/firstcuts/entry/view/18062/interview_ea_sports_president_peter_moore


Moore: I certainly played Tennis a lot up in Vancouver with the Wii Motion Dongle attached and in simplistic terms if you think about the normal movement you get with the Wii remote, you know you can sit on your couch and flick your wrist and you get the same reaction as if you stand up and do a full swing playing golf or tennis. What the Wii Motion plus allows you to do is do a true authentic sports motion. When you swing the racquet and you bring it back for an overhead lob or smash, then that is reflected. The amount of sensitivity that now brings allows true sports motion. It’s the same with golf. What you can do with Wii Motion Plus is truly bring it back, swing through the club and then it allows you to hit draws, fades and hooks. The really astute golfer can address the ball as he or she would in a real golf game. While the game will play as well as any other game with the current Wii remote, when you get it with the motion plus device, it becomes spectacular. I’ve hit spins, lobs and drop shots playing Tennis in Vancouver.


I tried Wii Sports Resort for the first time this afternoon. It's my pick up and go experience. There is no time to "get used to it". I think the Table Tennis game translated my arm twisting really well. There was no perceived lag at all. I came away solidly impressed. Also tried Basket Ball, Frisbee, they all felt natural and intuitive.

[patsu]

No time to post. Need to play Carcassonne with kid :), but here's a "Minority Report" video from the Engadget show:

Mz--coTb8h0
(Stolen from GAF again)

EDIT: The not-so-good news is "I wrote it last night". That may imply that Sony has not started serious work on UI improvement for Move and XMB yet (We only saw 1 or 2 gestures for XMB in GDC 2010).

EDIT 2: The "Oh so true" comment was "Why don't you guys make the game ?". ^_^

They simply, absolutely must use this for their Photo app in XMB.
... and a Dart Jack Tretton mini-game

May be possible to approximate this using Wiimote+ and to some degree, Natal also. If someone deploy something similar, they will easily outdo Sony's tech demo, which is unavailable to consumers to play.

[Crossbar]

I'll believe it when I see the price tag (mainly because they have to sustain the free online service too, at this point anyway). CE manufacturers have this habit of getting strung by hard numbers. It is in their DNA to obey those accounting sheets (because a mistake could cost the entire company). For better or worse, Kutaragi is a very rare exception.

If your concern that Sony may have to sell a move bundle at a loss, I don´t think that´s an issue really. You cannot really look at the price of the standalone PSEye and the DS3 to form an opinion of how much a Move bundle would cost. They are both high margin products at the current price point.

The standalone PSEye will likely keep its price and the standalone price of the Move wand will likely be about the same as the DS3, but the introduction bundle with a game will probably not cost that much more than a standalone Move Wand. Sony also promised bundles with just a game and a Move wand, they will probably not cost much more than a single wand either.

[patsu]

Not necessarily at a loss, but they may want to make more money to cover for on-going R&D, free online gaming, base PS3 hardware losses, etc. It's hard to predict which route Sony will take right now. It's best to wait for official information. Sometimes/very often in a large organization, the finance people (bean counters) and the lawyers have more power than the CEO and the marketing VeePees.

I am not saying it will definitely be expensive, but I don't think it will be automatically cheap either. Someone may need to put up a hard fight internally.

[Crossbar]

Not necessarily at a loss, but they may want to make more money to cover for on-going R&D, free online gaming, base PS3 hardware losses, etc. It's hard to predict which route Sony will take right now. It's best to wait for official information. Sometimes/very often in a large organization, the finance people (bean counters) and the lawyers have more power than the CEO and the marketing folks.

I am not saying it will definitely be expensive, but I don't think it will be automatically cheap either. Someone may need to put up a hard fight internally.

I get your point, but I have some hope that Kaz knows that they need to go full throttle for the casual market this fall. MS has been doing it for 1.5 years ever since the Arcade hit $199 and soon Nintendo will bring the Wii HD not to mention Natal which comes this year! This is pretty much the best window of opportunity there is for the PS3 to make a bold move (no pun intended). I can totally understand that they really wanted to bring out Move already this spring but obviously it didn´t work out.

My largest concern is that Sony will not make Move a part of every PS3 SKU at start, I think would really help a fast uptake. I am pretty convinced that MS is planning that, the removal of the CPU in Natal points that way and I think it is a smart move.

[patsu]

Hard to say... Sony may choose to focus on the core gamers while Nintendo and MS fight it out. The third party developers will chase their own audiences on all 3 platforms.

Anyway, here's an interesting interface using gloves:

gqW2K3A0AnU

I hope Sony and others abstract the next gen controller interface so that we can try other equally/more capable controllers with new drivers.

[Shifty Geezer]

No time to post. Need to play Carcassonne with kid :), but here's a "Minority Report" video from the Engadget show:That was superb. I loved the intimate, informal presentation style too, much more engaging then the huge stage demos we have. What's working so well is that the controller can so readily become a virtual device. The camera example really highlighted this. If you want a virtual camera to shoot a virtual movie in your virtual world, the Move gives you a solid interface which is perfectly mapped to your existing knowledge, so it just works. Controllerless interfaces are going to be at a disadvantage in that respect. You could probably track an arm as well to get a camera direction, but it wouldn't be the same as holding a virtual camera. Same with a torch or flag or sword.

Looking at the options now, at the moment I'm thinking the motion controller interface is overall the more flexible and natural interface rather than controllerless. We'll see how that opinion changes onthe next round of Natal reveals. :D


Anyway, here's an interesting interface using gloves:

Was that invented for evil masterminds and secret superhero lairs?

[Nesh]

Hard to say... Sony may choose to focus on the core gamers while Nintendo and MS fight it out. The third party developers will chase their own audiences on all 3 platforms.

Anyway, here's an interesting interface using gloves:

gqW2K3A0AnU

I hope Sony and others abstract the next gen controller interface so that we can try other equally/more capable controllers with new drivers.

Sony had this patented some years ago but it disappeared from the patent page. I would have loved to see something like that on the PS3 or the next Playstation. I have no idea what happened to it though

[patsu]

Was that invented for evil masterminds and secret superhero lairs?

No... the demonstrator's underwear would be on the outside if true. It's probably an R&D institution.

Sony had this patented some years ago but it disappeared from the patent page. I would have loved to see something like that on the PS3 or the next Playstation. I have no idea what happened to it though

Dr. Marks is one of the few in the gaming industry who has "tried it all". He would be the most fitted to do this.

Seriously, I think they need to introduce an alternative XMB user experiences. The Photo app can be made more useful (together with network file system access). The Playstation Home spaces and the new worldmap is primed for this too. Life with Playstation navigation, together with the game trailers channel, can be made more interesting (effective in upselling). It's not good enough to tell the users to wait patiently. Look at Steve Jobs, the first thing he showcased when he returned to Apple was a _functional_ Aqua UI.

The above apps don't have to be there all at launch, but a working new UI should be there day 1.

The problem with the tech demos is that most require two motion controllers, when it only ships with one.


The basic/core apps and games will be optimized for only one controller. e.g., for the Minority Report UI, it is possible to do it with one controller just like we only use one mouse for desktop and windows management.