Old Discussion Thread for all 3 motion controllers

[obonicus]

http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2010/02/22/project-natal-timing-the-delay/ (http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2010/02/22/project-natal-timing-the-delay/)

If the average lag is 100ms, that's excellent as that's the same as the theoretical minimum controller latency at 30FPS.

If theyre getting 80ms at times, it should mean the software is running faster than 30fps,

From Digitalfoundry's twitter (http://twitter.com/digital_foundry/statuses/9518270430):


MTV Natal lag timings done with a stop watch?! Latency from normal joypad on 30fps game is 100ms minimum. Natal closer to 200ms at gamescom.

[obonicus]

Seems to be an undercurrent of thinking that MS isn't capable of doing anything good, and looking for ways Natal will fail...


Where is this undercurrent, exactly? It must extend to more than Natal, which just hasn't demo'd very well to people who actually look at response times. And it doesn't seem like anyone is particularly kind (nor should they be) towards Arc/Wand.

[liolio]

Lag to an extend is not only a matter of ms, the brain seems to have higher stander with full body motion sensing. The same is true with musical instrument, you can notice tiny lag while playing guitar though various numeric devices when you are more than unlikely to notice the same lag while playing (hopefully).

[Prophecy2k]

I have a question regarding Natal's ability to track more than one person at a time...

IIRC, MS hasn't demoed Natal doing this in any meaningful capacity, yet its been stated (I think) by them and many others who follow the tech that Natal can indeed do this capably.

Given the reports of lag (also bearing in mind it is a WIP) and the recent suggestion that the number of tracking points have been reduced... theoretically, how well would Natal in it's currently demoed incarnation be able to track more than one person? How would the percieved latency be affected too, bearing in mind the heavy number crunching will now be done on the 360 CPU rather than a custom chip?

If Natal was tracking say, 11 points per person and giving 200ms latency...
How would the processor load be affected by tracking 44 points on four people? Would that imply decreased accuracy in multiplayer titles?

I've been wondering this for a while...

[Shifty Geezer]

I wonder why all the press are still complaining about the Natal lag when they've shown it is as good as Halo 3 on average (sometimes even better) and much better than the input lag in games like KZ2 and GTA4.Perhaps because there are different experiences and measurements, and no-one has a clear picture yet. At the end of the, no-one experiences lag as a ms figure, but as a responsiveness, which various with both actually input-to-display latency and the application. 10ms of input-to-display latency is undetectable in a shooter or platformer, but utterly crippling in trying to play a musical instrument. Likewise if your mouse were to lag a tenth of a second, it'd be very annoying and make drawing things hard. If the applications being shown require extremely low latency (and following your own actions on screen 1:1 with your own body movements, this is something that's going to be far more noticeable), the same degree of latency as another game could be more prevalent and disturbing.

We really are just going to have to wait and see on this one. Measuring isn't going to be much use (unless the measured latencies really are on the tiny side!) as that doesn't provide a worthwhile context. Until we get ahnds-on ourselves, we can only go by user reports what they personally experienced. Comparing numbers from different devices and in different contexts isn't going to be any use in determining the speed of Natal as an input device.

[patsu]

Need to experience it myself.

I was thinking in full body tracking, the lag for multiple body parts may add up in order to interpret a complex action. It is not tracking a simple, relatively constant thumb twitching action. So overall when a third party tries to observe the player, he/she may notice a more severe lag although locally, if we break things up to measure, the lag may be constant and small.

Personally I still prefer the original IR + camera tracking method. e.g., tracking finger gestures, identify player for green screen effect, and ignore the rest, just because it is more efficient. Only some games need to track the entire body (e.g., exercise, dancing, acting). Even so, the exact match may not matter. It may be more important for the users to have fun rather than match the exact 3D posture Natal is expecting.

[Silent_Buddha]

IIRC, MS hasn't demoed Natal doing this in any meaningful capacity, yet its been stated (I think) by them and many others who follow the tech that Natal can indeed do this capably.

Aye only demo with actively tracking multiple people was the paint demo as far as I can recall (2 people). Otherwise it's mostly just shown the ability to pick a person out of a crowd and successfully track them while disregarding the rest.

Doubt we're going to get any other significant information prior to E3. Although GDC might have a shot at revealing more info...

Regards,
SB

[Silent_Buddha]

Where is this undercurrent, exactly? It must extend to more than Natal, which just hasn't demo'd very well to people who actually look at response times. And it doesn't seem like anyone is particularly kind (nor should they be) towards Arc/Wand.

Just look at the comments in the link that Warb posted above.

PS3 is better END OF... xbox's natal is probably gonna be a fluke like the consle itself they'll hype it up and it will end being total bull.

That's the undercurrent I'm talking about among many (obvious not everyone) in the general populace. And there's plenty more like that in various game blogs/newsite comment sections. By volume, more than people defending X360. Perception among many being that MS still hasn't proven they can do a console right.

I have a few friends and relatives that after having used both consoles mirror those feelings. PS3 is better, X360 has no chance. When asked why. Response is quite often either,

It's a Playstation, duh.
Xbox 360 is made by Microsoft, duh.
I don't know, why, it just is.

Again this obviously isn't everyone, X360 wouldn't be doing as well as it is if it wasn't. But I run across this far more than I run into people saying X360 rules and PS3 has no chance.

And that feeling filters down to Natal as well. Interestingly enough, I've also run into far more people that know about Natal than know about PS3 Arc.

Regards,
SB

[Squilliam]

Doesn't ARC have even more useability flaws than the Wiimote?

People complain about waggle, and how tiring it is to repetitively perform motion with the Wiimote, but in general use it can be rested on the knee for pointing style games. This is because the camera is in the controller and a small change in angle nets a large change in perspective.

The Arc is different, as it has the camera outside of the controller you'd have to make large movements of your hand for typical motion/pointing controls which are comparable to the Wiimote. You can't just rest your hand and you can't leave the pointer centred to the middle of the screen for aiming etc because that would be tiring.

So how can you play for an hour of say Resident Evil 5 (Arc) if you cannot keep your arm at rest like you can with the Wiimote or a traditional controller? If its even more tiring to use than the Wiimote then its even less suited for core games and even more suited to casual short pick up and play style games.

[obonicus]

Just look at the comments in the link that Warb posted above.

SNIP


What you're describing are console warriors. Some people still hate Sony for 'killing Sega'. Some people hate Sony for usurping Nintendo's rightful place in the videogame hierarchy. Some people dislike Sony just for having been successful with the PS2. Some people carry grudges against Nintendo from the 16-bit wars. Some people hate Microsoft just for not being Japanese. I was talking about the press, though -- they're generally pretty positive towards Natal, even though it hasn't demoed that well.

[patsu]

Doesn't ARC have even more useability flaws than the Wiimote?

People complain about waggle, and how tiring it is to repetitively perform motion with the Wiimote, but in general use it can be rested on the knee for pointing style games. This is because the camera is in the controller and a small change in angle nets a large change in perspective.

The Arc is different, as it has the camera outside of the controller you'd have to make large movements of your hand for typical motion/pointing controls which are comparable to the Wiimote. You can't just rest your hand and you can't leave the pointer centred to the middle of the screen for aiming etc because that would be tiring.

So how can you play for an hour of say Resident Evil 5 (Arc) if you cannot keep your arm at rest like you can with the Wiimote or a traditional controller? If its even more tiring to use than the Wiimote then its even less suited for core games and even more suited to casual short pick up and play style games.

I think it depends on the software (mostly the application/game) whether they want to magnify the input.

The hardware is capable of 1-to-1 true mapping (or whatever they call it), but it doesn't mean the software has to use it "as is".

[Shifty Geezer]

The Arc is different, as it has the camera outside of the controller you'd have to make large movements of your hand for typical motion/pointing controls which are comparable to the Wiimote.The external camera is only to determine 3D position; Arc orientation is determined by internal MEMS. Motion with Arc need not be any more tiring than Warhawk's flight controls, which isn't tiring at all in my experience. Obviously some games will be far more demanding, but there's no intrinsic flaw to Arc's design that leads inevitably to tiring gaming. At the moment, Natal is only being shown with larger movements, which suggests subtler controls (a la Warhawk) aren't possible. However, combine Natal with a controller and it could well have many of the bases covered. Then again, MS don't appear to be targeting the existing sit-down gamer with Natal, a demographic they already have a lot of appeal with in the current system. All that said, until we see more of the demos and examples, we can only guess what the intial experience is going to be like. It's quite possible for any device to come only with extreme waggle games and make a name for itself as an exhausting experience!

[Prophecy2k]

The Arc is different, as it has the camera outside of the controller you'd have to make large movements of your hand for typical motion/pointing controls which are comparable to the Wiimote. You can't just rest your hand and you can't leave the pointer centred to the middle of the screen for aiming etc because that would be tiring.

So how can you play for an hour of say Resident Evil 5 (Arc) if you cannot keep your arm at rest like you can with the Wiimote or a traditional controller? If its even more tiring to use than the Wiimote then its even less suited for core games and even more suited to casual short pick up and play style games.

That certainly isn't how the thing seemed at the TGS demo last year. The guy playing RE5 seemed to be very casually rotating his wrists for the pointer movement in the very same way as one would a Wiimote. Even the chap playing LBP with the young lass didn't seem at all like he was flailing his arms around for all he was worth...

Like Shifty said... there's inherent reason why pointer controls using ARC needs to be physically taxing.

[Squilliam]

The external camera is only to determine 3D position; Arc orientation is determined by internal MEMS. Motion with Arc need not be any more tiring than Warhawk's flight controls, which isn't tiring at all in my experience. Obviously some games will be far more demanding, but there's no intrinsic flaw to Arc's design that leads inevitably to tiring gaming. At the moment, Natal is only being shown with larger movements, which suggests subtler controls (a la Warhawk) aren't possible. However, combine Natal with a controller and it could well have many of the bases covered. Then again, MS don't appear to be targeting the existing sit-down gamer with Natal, a demographic they already have a lot of appeal with in the current system. All that said, until we see more of the demos and examples, we can only guess what the intial experience is going to be like. It's quite possible for any device to come only with extreme waggle games and make a name for itself as an exhausting experience!

So you're saying that Arc will give similar tracking accuracy with a gyroscope that the Wiimote does with IR LEDs and an IR camera?

[patsu]

Both Arc and Wiimote+ (not Wiimote) have a 3D gyro and an accelerometer. Wiimote+ has an IR camera in the controller, while Arc has a LED bulb. Both claim true 1-1 mapping.

There may be a difference in how the software tracking works, but we won't be able to internalize it until we have tried the controllers ourselves.

[bkilian]

http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2010/02/22/project-natal-timing-the-delay/ (http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2010/02/22/project-natal-timing-the-delay/)

If the average lag is 100ms, that's excellent as that's the same as the theoretical minimum controller latency at 30FPS.

If theyre getting 80ms at times, it should mean the software is running faster than 30fps,No, all it means is that people using stopwatches are not frame accurate.

[patsu]

I think people pay too much attention to that body tracking game. It's only a demo, and hard to differentiate from the original EyeToy game. The real Natal games should be able to do something else. It's those games and applications that will define the experience.

[(((interference)))]

Just look at the comments in the link that Warb posted above.



That's the undercurrent I'm talking about among many (obvious not everyone) in the general populace. And there's plenty more like that in various game blogs/newsite comment sections. By volume, more than people defending X360. Perception among many being that MS still hasn't proven they can do a console right.

I have a few friends and relatives that after having used both consoles mirror those feelings. PS3 is better, X360 has no chance. When asked why. Response is quite often either,

It's a Playstation, duh.
Xbox 360 is made by Microsoft, duh.
I don't know, why, it just is.

Again this obviously isn't everyone, X360 wouldn't be doing as well as it is if it wasn't. But I run across this far more than I run into people saying X360 rules and PS3 has no chance.

And that feeling filters down to Natal as well. Interestingly enough, I've also run into far more people that know about Natal than know about PS3 Arc.

Regards,
SB

Agree, there is a strong anti-MS pretty much everwhere, video games are no exception.
Tall poppy syndrome perhaps, I think most people expected the Xbox to go the way of the Dreamcast, not best or match the PS3 this console generation

I am curious to see what will happen next console generation, whether the Xbox brand will continue it's expansion, MS if anything has shown it is persistent and has succeeded many times despite entering the market late and at a disadvantage to existing brands eg. Windows vs Mac, Palm vs Windows Mobile etc.

Btw does anyone know if Natal can still do object recognition and insert that object into the play space? Ie like if u hold up a plastic sword will it be able to scan that in and let u play with it?

My biggest problem with Natal is that they decided to ditch the onboard processing which means most AAA titles are not going to use it due to the 15% performance penalty. It also means Natal games are probably not going to have great graphics. This could basically end up segmenting te 360's title selection into traditional games that do not use Natal and casual type games that do. It's a pity we couldn't see any crossovers, like Halo Reach was supposed to be (but obviously it wouldn't be worth the performance penalty)

[scently]

Dude, Reach was never going to support NATAL. Please people, stop complaining until we have more information.:roll:

[Silent_Buddha]

My biggest problem with Natal is that they decided to ditch the onboard processing which means most AAA titles are not going to use it due to the 15% performance penalty. It also means Natal games are probably not going to have great graphics. This could basically end up segmenting te 360's title selection into traditional games that do not use Natal and casual type games that do. It's a pity we couldn't see any crossovers, like Halo Reach was supposed to be (but obviously it wouldn't be worth the performance penalty)

No idea really. And not expecting much in the way of significant info until E3 (small chance of something at GDC maybe).

With regards to possible titles all we know is that 14 titles are "planned" for launch. And that Capcom is working on a "hardcore" traditional console game from their library of titles that hasn't seen a release in many years using Natal. And that it is definitely NOT a launch title.

Regards,
SB

[Butta]

Check this video out... clearly one sided for Sony (and fanboy made) but very funny!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUlv1KKs2Tw&feature=related

[Danalys]

I think people pay too much attention to that body tracking game. It's only a demo, and hard to differentiate from the original EyeToy game. The real Natal games should be able to do something else. It's those games and applications that will define the experience.

It's only the skeleton mapping and being 3D that differentiates anything is can do from Eye toy or PS eye. That demo is the best indicator of how that aspect is working currently.

[patsu]

From an outsider's perspective, the difference between that demo and the EyeToy game is not obvious. You don't really need 3D to do that game. IMHO, they should pick something else.

[Danalys]

The none enthusiast press are lapping it up though, and that's the press that reaches the new customers they want to attract.

[patsu]

Sure, when that game can be done with EyeToy, Sony will benefit from MS's marketing too. i.e., the same press will likely be impressed by PSEye/Arc also (when presented properly).

It also doesn't mean the audience cannot be more impressed by other demoes.

[Danalys]

I figure to them a modern Eye toy like game would look like Sony playing me too, even though they were first in some regards. Seeing a representation of you on screen from an angle you would normally see a game character from makes a difference and Sony didn't do that with Eye toy. Even though they could have put a see through silhouette up, that wouldn't have been as impressive as seeing the on screen characters arms out in front of it if placed there by the player.

[patsu]

What you mentioned above are perceptions and subtle differences. They can be influenced/altered as long as the "same" demo can be done with both technologies (and more). My guess is there was a short presentation (or even other tech demoes) together with the flailing body game. They built on top of each other (e.g., comparison with existing "lame/primitive" webcam/EyeToy efforts). It is the combined/integrated experience that impressed them. If the flailing demo was the only thing they could try for themselves, the audience would gravitate towards the title more.

Should Sony want to do a follow-up presentation, they do have to worry about the "me too" effect following Wii and Natal. However, they should have enough experiences/history and differentiators to position themselves at the same level, but in their own unique ways. This is assuming Sony does its job though.

It is not clear to me the flailing body demo is "it". I expect something else to supercede it at launch.

[Brad Grenz]

I don't know, I'm still mystified by the way Natal won so much mind share after E3 last year. They went first, showed some very dubious demos and that stupid marketing trailer. Then those guys from Sony R&D came out the next day and put the Natal demos to shame. I mean the sloshing paint at a wall versus signing your name alone should tell you everything you need to know. Maybe I just find engineers endearing but those actual game play demos were far more impressive as a proof of concept than the seemingly pointless, and ultimately faked Milo demo.

Natal I think, even internally at Microsoft, has built up momentum based on the novelty of being "controller free", quite in the face of all the problems that actually imposes. It's a solution in search of a problem. The whole idea that the last barrier for acceptance is the controller is fallacious. And so often the things that are brought up to bolster Natal's position, voice recognition, facial recognition, augmented reality, gesture controls, head tracking, are actually possible with the PS Eye. Even so, one of the biggest complaints about Wii games is that so often waggle is used as a highly imprecise button press. Why you'd want that same problem translated to dashboard navigation, only requiring much broader movements to make it that much fatiguing is beyond me. And voice activation has been well within our grasp for a long time. End War didn't exactly set the world on fire. You know why? People feel kinda stupid alone in a room talking to their TV or computer. I doubt Natal will magically make everyone less self conscious.

And it's not like I don't recognize the advances in technology Natal represents. The time of flight camera and IR are pretty groovy. But I can only imagine two game types that it's actually good for: handball simulators and fitness games. I mean, if you think Wii was the home of shovelware garbage, I shudder to think of what the Natal landscape will look like a year after launch. It's going to be minigame after minigame with some Jenny McCarthy junk thrown in. And maybe some inexplicable, high concept Peter Moleneux game no one will actually want to play. I think they'll succeed in generating a strong initial interest, but I also think it'll be a fad that burns out very quickly.

I don't know that the Sony solution will actually do any better in sales, but I'm convinced it will at least have more games worth playing. I mean, it's going to quite literally be a Wii HD, capable of the lightsaber and archery games everyone has always wanted since the Wii was first announced, only with next gen graphics and physics and sound. The LBP co-op alone looks like more actual fun than anything MS has ever even intimated was coming...

[Rangers]

The Sony solution is just Wii refined. We already had that, called Wii Motion Plus. Natal is something new, I'd argue.

It instantly captivates and transcends, because it's instantly obvious it's in some way a generation beyond Arc/Wii. That is why it has cornered the hype market. Even though the market is highly resistant to just about anything Microsoft introduces, just because it comes from them! I mean, if Nintendo was doing Natal, I cant imagine the hype.

If you're arguing, all motion control is imprecise, then why bother trying to integrate it into a more controller/hardcore framework at all? Why try to make something that "hey, this is almost as good as a regular controller now!". Why not just cut free from regular control altogether?

That said, I dont know how all this will work out or what solution will prevail in the market. We will see. But I cant see how you wouldn't be excited to try Natal out.

For one, fitness "games" seem to be about the only true new well-selling genre that motion established, and I would think for starters Natal will excel there.

I would rather the promise of one Milo or Minority Report interface, than a hundred boring Wiiwand clone games.

[patsu]

The Sony solution is just Wii refined.

Yes and no. PSEye alone has other functionalities. When combined, it enables more accurate absolute position tracking of the Arc controller. e.g., Sketch recognition is pure PSEye only. Then again, if they want to, they can also allow people to sketch/paint using the new controller in real-time. They have different use cases.

...

Still too much analysis though. Best case is Sony comes out and shows something that is clearly different even to a noob. The very coarse-grained body flailing demo may be renegaded to a hygiene factor. But when all is said and done, the gesture recognition needs to be reliable. Very reliable.

[Danalys]

I mean the sloshing paint at a wall versus signing your name alone should tell you everything you need to know. Maybe I just find engineers endearing but those actual game play demos were far more impressive as a proof of concept than the seemingly pointless, and ultimately faked Milo demo.

There was a really nice reaction to the writing from the audience. details like that impress those that dream of what they or others can do with that precision for gameplay.

I think part of Wii's success and part of Natal's hype is the inaccuracy. the average person isn't good at stuff, and if you give them something accurate enough to show their faults up they wont like it.

[rabidrabbit]

I figure to them a modern Eye toy like game would look like Sony playing me too, even though they were first in some regards. Seeing a representation of you on screen from an angle you would normally see a game character from makes a difference and Sony didn't do that with Eye toy. Even though they could have put a see through silhouette up, that wouldn't have been as impressive as seeing the on screen characters arms out in front of it if placed there by the player.
They did already, with Ps2 and the first Eye Toy in 2004.
There was a game in Eye Toy Play where you played as a goalie, very similar to what Microsoft showed with Natal... on year 2009.

[Shifty Geezer]

I think the thing missing from the Natal demo is the affect of 3D motion and postion on the balls. It looks like all you need do is put a bodu part in front of the ball for it to bounce off. A simpler game more like volleyball or such would allow us to appreciate the ability to apply variable force (Z-axis velocity) and direction to a target.

[Danalys]

They did already, with Ps2 and the first Eye Toy in 2004.
There was a game in Eye Toy Play where you played as a goalie, very similar to what Microsoft showed with Natal... on year 2009.

Couldn't find a video of that but I found this video of the Nights games from the Sega Superstars Eye toy game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKHlVLWepVk&NR=1

Sort of comparable to the Burnout demo.

[Danalys]

I think the thing missing from the Natal demo is the affect of 3D motion and postion on the balls. It looks like all you need do is put a bodu part in front of the ball for it to bounce off. A simpler game more like volleyball or such would allow us to appreciate the ability to apply variable force (Z-axis velocity) and direction to a target.

I'm not sure it will be able to apply direction accurately enough. I think it'll be more like Eye toy but being able to hit things with your hand in front of your body rather than just around it, and since z position is more accurate your timing and position will have to be more accurate.

[patsu]

I think part of Wii's success and part of Natal's hype is the inaccuracy. the average person isn't good at stuff, and if you give them something accurate enough to show their faults up they wont like it.

Depends on the game. e.g., From what I hear, people actually like the more accurate Wiimote+ Tennis game compared to the original Wiimote Tennis game. I'd imagine Golf is the same if they can capture the Golf swing "correctly". In the Wiimote Golf game, I know people who lose interests immediately once they found out that you can T-off the ball by just "twitching" your wrist abruptly. Others will simply continue to do the Golf swing motion even after they found out the "short cut".

OTOH, there are some games where the accuracy doesn't matter. For these games, it may not matter much whether the developer are given accurate 2D or 3D tracking info (e.g., the body flailing demo).

[Danalys]

Sure there are people who prefer more accurate, but you lose the older/younger people who can't perform the accurate movement, and the immediacy of not needing much practice that leads things to be party games. These are the elements that have pushed Wii above and beyond in sales.

If the mems were ready at the time they could have made it more accurate and just used software interpretation of control to make it easy in standard play I guess.

[Shifty Geezer]

I'm not sure it will be able to apply direction accurately enough. I think it'll be more like Eye toy but being able to hit things with your hand in front of your body rather than just around it, and since z position is more accurate your timing and position will have to be more accurate.It may not be particularly accurate, but there should be a sense of directionality with the impacts for Natal to show what it offers beyond existing camera methods. Besides, I think a derived impact vector should be pretty accurate. The hand positioned sampled between two points will give an okay trajectory to apply an impulse to the ball.

Thinking about it now, if it were me designing a demo, I'd probably go with spawning a VR ball on the left hand which can be moved into positon, and then whacked (or poked, to exhibit Natal's Z-velocity reading) with the right hand at targets.

[patsu]

Sure there are people who prefer more accurate, but you lose the older/younger people who can't perform the accurate movement, and the immediacy of not needing much practice that leads things to be party games. These are the elements that have pushed Wii above and beyond in sales.

Yes, it depends on the game, which means we can have party games for casuals and sports/skills games for more competitive people. As you mentioned, if the hardware can deliver accurate data, then it's up to the software to decide what they want to do (e.g., switch to different game mode, or difficulty level).

EDIT: At some level, it's also about the immersiveness, I am not sure whether there is a clean match between party games and skill games vs loose and accurate tracking. Sometimes, a party game may want accurate tracking to surface the true nuances, but adopt less stringent judging (e.g. art performance).

[Danalys]

It may not be particularly accurate, but there should be a sense of directionality with the impacts for Natal to show what it offers beyond existing camera methods. Besides, I think a derived impact vector should be pretty accurate. The hand positioned sampled between two points will give an okay trajectory to apply an impulse to the ball.

Thinking about it now, if it were me designing a demo, I'd probably go with spawning a VR ball on the left hand which can be moved into positon, and then whacked (or poked, to exhibit Natal's Z-velocity reading) with the right hand at targets.

Some kind of virtual football (soccer) would be impressive. Just shifting the virtual ball around. That's more of an engineers demonstration to developers though.

[scently]

So you guys really believe Natal is just another PSeye? Because if it is then why are the press, the media, consumers and even the developers so excited about it.
Why is it that Sony never made something similar to what I see Natal doing.
Even if PSeye came out earlier, it means absolutely nothing if the potential was never fully realized.
Apple is being hailed as the company that brought touchscreen to mobile phones but that is not really the case, instead it is because they got it right and as such they deserve that praise.
Give credit where it's due and respect to those that deserve it.

[patsu]

So you guys really believe Natal is just another PSeye? Because if it is then why are the press, the media, consumers and even the developers so excited about it.

No. I am saying the flailing body demo is not a good indication of Natal's true capability. The PS2 EyeToy game can achieve something similar with lesser and potentially faster tech on PS3. MS should pick something else, especially at launch.


Why is it that Sony never made something similar to what I see Natal doing.

Which part ? and which part of the world are you in ? I don't think SCEA pushed EyeToy hard.


Even if PSeye came out earlier, it means absolutely nothing if the potential was never fully realized.
Apple is being hailed as the company that brought touchscreen to mobile phones but that is not really the case, instead it is because they got it right and as such they deserve that praise.
Give credit where it's due and respect to those that deserve it.

Yes, but I haven't seen a "got it right case" for Natal's public demoes yet (because they keep showing the same flailing body demo). The green screen stuff has potential but I have not seen any follow-up. Would like to see how well their newer tech demoes work. As I said, when these are available, I fully expect the flinging arm thing to take lesser role.

[Danalys]

So you guys really believe Natal is just another PSeye? Because if it is then why are the press, the media, consumers and even the developers so excited about it.
Why is it that Sony never made something similar to what I see Natal doing.
Even if PSeye came out earlier, it means absolutely nothing if the potential was never fully realized.
Apple is being hailed as the company that brought touchscreen to mobile phones but that is not really the case, instead it is because they got it right and as such they deserve that praise.
Give credit where it's due and respect to those that deserve it.

The first three groups is argumentum ad populum, the last group (developers) would be interested because they can make money of the first three.

Natal is better than PSeye we've mentioned the reasons why.

[Iron Tiger]

The external camera is only to determine 3D position; Arc orientation is determined by internal MEMS. Motion with Arc need not be any more tiring than Warhawk's flight controls, which isn't tiring at all in my experience. Obviously some games will be far more demanding, but there's no intrinsic flaw to Arc's design that leads inevitably to tiring gaming. At the moment, Natal is only being shown with larger movements, which suggests subtler controls (a la Warhawk) aren't possible. However, combine Natal with a controller and it could well have many of the bases covered. Then again, MS don't appear to be targeting the existing sit-down gamer with Natal, a demographic they already have a lot of appeal with in the current system. All that said, until we see more of the demos and examples, we can only guess what the intial experience is going to be like. It's quite possible for any device to come only with extreme waggle games and make a name for itself as an exhausting experience!
Moving a pointer across a 2D screen with a gyroscope is one thing, and I quite like it. But trying to control a 3D game with it is a nightmare.
joQr_Q5vC7M

The trouble is that there's no point of reference for relative positioning, so you need to be able to press a button or something to tell the system that you're physically moved beyond a viable region of dexterity or comfort, so that it can allow you to re-center. In 2D games, when you butt up to the edge of the screen, you can move back the other way as far as you need to to get yourself re-oriented. In 3D, there's no edge of the screen.
_EP6kKJGBMg

Having to press a button that stops your in-game movement to give you time to re-center is a gamebreaker. It will be interesting to see if the camera can be used to fix this.

[Shifty Geezer]

It also seems to me a lot of the interest factor depends on one's experience with EyeToy. ET wasn't big in NA, meaning Natal is a lot fresher. For Europe, particularly the UK which already had a 'grannies playing computer games' campaign and media interest, Natal isn't as large a progress from what's already been experienced. This is mostly due to the choice of software by MS though IMO. And perhaps because us cynics weren't so wowed by Milo as we understood the smoke and mirrors invovled, whereas to Joe Public it seemed the woman demoing was interacting with a virtual boy.

[patsu]

Having to press a button that stops your in-game movement to give you time to re-center is a gamebreaker. It will be interesting to see if the camera can be used to fix this.

Yes. Do you have to recalibrate Wiimote+ after a swing ?

[Danalys]

Having to press a button that stops your in-game movement to give you time to re-center is a gamebreaker. It will be interesting to see if the camera can be used to fix this.

How's it more a game breaker than lifting your mouse of a table to re-center.

[scently]

But if was effective, very much so actually. Which is all they need to do at the time. It was a tech demo. And I haven't read any hands-on report that has a "meh,been there done that" tone to it. It is always a "wow this is really different, this is impressive" reaction all round.
If by e3, they don't show something new then we can crucify them.
My point is, even if it is not the best demo to advertise the product (which from what I have seen and read, it actually achieve in spades) they don't need to show their trumpcard so early.

[patsu]

How's it more a game breaker than lifting your mouse of a table to re-center.

The recalibration is the key because it is disruptive/intrusive.

I think lifting the mouse is ok because the mind doesn't seem to be aware of it during regular use (People understand that they have limited desktop space, the lifting doesn't seem to enter the conscious mind).

But if was effective, very much so actually. Which is all they need to do at the time. It was a tech demo. And I haven't read any hands-on report that has a "meh,been there done that" tone to it. It is always a "wow this is really different, this is impressive" reaction all round.

That's because they are talking about the umbrella Natal concept, not just the flailing body demo alone.


If by e3, they don't show something new then we can crucify them.
My point is, even if it is not the best demo to advertise the product (which from what I have seen and read, it actually achieve in spades) they don't need to show their trumpcard so early.

Why crucify them ? I am just saying the flailing body demo is insufficient.

[Danalys]

The recalibration is the key because it is disruptive/intrusive.

I think lifting the mouse is ok because the mind doesn't seem to be aware of it during regular use (People understand that they have limited desktop space).

People got used to doing it. So much it became second nature. People should also understand that they have limited arm rotation.

I actually remember using GEM on the ST and getting used to using a mouse.

[Shifty Geezer]

Yes. Do you have to recalibrate Wiimote+ after a swing ?
Wii Motion+ requires you to lay the handset upside down on the floor every once in a while to calibrate.

[Iron Tiger]

Yes. Do you have to recalibrate Wiimote+ after a swing ?I'm talking about moving a character in a 3D in a manner that's akin to using a mouse. If I'm playing Silent Hill and shaking skin monkeys off, yes I have to recalibrate by pointing at the Sensor Bar.
How's it more a game breaker than lifting your mouse of a table to re-center.
That motion is small and quick, and the "button presses" are automatically registered as the mouse loses sight of the surface then regains it. Doing it in the air with your whole arm won't be quick, and you'd have to manually press a button.

[patsu]

People got used to doing it. So much it became second nature. People should also understand that they have limited arm rotation.

I actually remember using GEM on the ST and getting used to using a mouse.

We may have adapted to the limitations.

I think it's a little more than that though. According to studies, some users don't even realize that the menu bar may change contextually because the usage model flows naturally/intuitively into their workflow. The lifting and uneven movement is more noticeable with the original "ball" mouse. The newer ones are smoother and easier to handle. I know I will fidget more if I use a low quality mouse today (e.g., get entangled in mouse cable, clicking doesn't feel tight).

The custom mouse sensitivity panel also helps to reduce the need to lift the mouse.

The Wiimote recalibration breaks the flow, just like if the mouse loses its position.

I'm talking about moving a character in a 3D in a manner that's akin to using a mouse. If I'm playing Silent Hill and shaking skin monkeys off, yes I have to recalibrate by pointing at the Sensor Bar.

Ah, you and me are talking about different things then. I think Nintendo needs to get rid of the recalibration.

[Shifty Geezer]

If by e3, they don't show something new then we can crucify them.That seems an extreme POV! From my perspective, many posting here are taking a fairly cautious wait-and-see approach to these devices, with plenty of gaming history to illustrate the best-laid-plans can turn out turkeys. And while waiting, we consider the pros and cons of the system. What's wrong with that? Should we herald Natal as the next great thing having had no experience just because the media says it's great? I trust I'm not alone in experiencing media-hyped creations that really haven't floated my boat! Wii itself, huge success as it is, isn't offering me much of interest. I question how much Natal and Arc will too. I believe Natal could have me more excited than it has, because what MS has shown so far hasn't offered enough of a convincing argument, hence the desire for more content!

[Iron Tiger]

Wii Motion+ requires you to lay the handset upside down on the floor every once in a while to calibrate.Also, Motion Plus isn't used to move a camera/pointer. I asked one of The Conduit guys at E3 why they weren't going to have Motion Plus support for when you pointed off screen (out of range of the Sensor Bar), and he said it didn't work the same, plus the SDK was forcing the M+ to shut off if the Wiimote lost sight of the Sensor Bar for more than 8 seconds. Wii Sports Resort doesn't seem to have that limitation (though you do have to recalibrate by pointing at the screeen and pressing A to begin a sword play round), but it seems Nintendo doesn't want devs to use the gyros in that way.

[Danalys]

One of the Arc launch games is a light gun like game so if they can't get accurate pointing information we'll find out pretty soon.

I still think pressing a button which is a small and quick movement can become second nature for repositioning.

[Iron Tiger]

One of the Arc launch games is a light gun like game so if they can't get accurate pointing information we'll find out pretty soon.If it's anything like the RE: Chronicles type of light gun games, it will use the camera for pointing instead of the gyros. It will have all the relative positioning data, won't have the player controlling the camera, and the player will be accustomed and willing to make broad motions within a confined range (as that's par for the course in traditional light gun games).

I still think pressing a button which is a small and quick movement can become second nature for repositioning.The function of the button press is to stop the game tracking your movement, so you can reposition yourself. It's two things you have to consciously do, which in itself breaks immersion. Also, you have to stop playing every time you need to recalibrate, and that just breaks the gameplay.

[Danalys]

If it's anything like the RE: Chronicles type of light gun games, it will use the camera for pointing instead of the gyros. It will have all the relative positioning data, won't have the player controlling the camera, and the player will be accustomed and willing to make broad motions within a confined range (as that's par for the course in traditional light gun games).

The function of the button press is to stop the game tracking your movement, so you can reposition yourself. It's two things you have to consciously do, which in itself breaks immersion. Also, you have to stop playing every time you need to recalibrate, and that just breaks the gameplay.

Difference between Arc and the Wii remote are that one uses the camera for angle determination in a limited range while the other uses it for absolute positioning. So for the system that uses the camera for absolute positioning to work out where it's pointing it needs to take the position then the angle from the sensors and then work out where it's pointing, If the sensors that detect angle get confused or are inaccurate then it will have problems.

again lifting a mouse stops the game tracking your movement, you stop playing for a moment to recalibrate. only difference is pressing a button rather that lifting.

[Silent_Buddha]

I think the thing missing from the Natal demo is the affect of 3D motion and postion on the balls. It looks like all you need do is put a bodu part in front of the ball for it to bounce off. A simpler game more like volleyball or such would allow us to appreciate the ability to apply variable force (Z-axis velocity) and direction to a target.

The demo actually calculates the velocity of the body part that hits the balls.

In one of the articles I read, one of the guys playing it mentioned he "invented" a new move. Using a straight on hip thrust (sexual innuendo included) to propel the bell.

I think the bigger problem with that particular demo is there's just too many balls. As a spectator watching it in a video it just seems to messy. But you don't get that same impression by reading what people who have actually used it say.

Regards,
SB

[Silent_Buddha]

How's it more a game breaker than lifting your mouse of a table to re-center.

Having used 3D "air" mice, the recentering is in a whole different league from re-positioning a mouse. I use an accurate 3D "air" mouse for my HTPC in addition to the remote, and it's just in a whole different league of non-intuitiveness than a mouse. :) It's in no way suitable for gaming. For it to be suitable for gaming there would need to be a method to automatically recalibrate relative positioning constantly.

There's where the camera would come into play for Wii controls and Arc controls.

Regards,
SB

[Danalys]

Damn I need to find that video of a laser projector mounted on a gun that tracks it's position and adjusts the display accordingly. I was looking for it earlier but couldn't find it. The point with that was that even though it could be used 360 in a room they had an optional button for "lifting it into the 4th dimension" so people could just use half a room. It didn't seem to be a problem and the experience still looked fun.

[LightHeaven]

I think the thing missing from the Natal demo is the affect of 3D motion and postion on the balls. It looks like all you need do is put a bodu part in front of the ball for it to bounce off. A simpler game more like volleyball or such would allow us to appreciate the ability to apply variable force (Z-axis velocity) and direction to a target.

I think that there's a lot regarding moving speed missing from this ricochet demo. It looks like the character doesn't actually move as fast as you if you make a fast movement...

[LightHeaven]

Couldn't find a video of that but I found this video of the Nights games from the Sega Superstars Eye toy game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKHlVLWepVk&NR=1

Sort of comparable to the Burnout demo.

But this requires calibration and that the player stands still where the camera told him so.

The jump natal would have from it is that more than one person would be able to play, anywhere in the room, even sited on the sofa.

[AzBat]

Damn I need to find that video of a laser projector mounted on a gun that tracks it's position and adjusts the display accordingly. I was looking for it earlier but couldn't find it. The point with that was that even though it could be used 360 in a room they had an optional button for "lifting it into the 4th dimension" so people could just use half a room. It didn't seem to be a problem and the experience still looked fun.

Microvision PicoP?
vnvoTd6a_Dc

Also check out the homemade GameGun... :)
YZuzCpqVZ_c

Tommy McClain

[patsu]

Looks tedious ! :no:
I would go play Pain Ball instead for a good outdoor "workout".

[(((interference)))]

Actually, funnily one of the things I'm most looking forward too with Natal is handsfree control of my 360. Mainly just for the cool factor.

But one of the most annoying things when playing splitscreen is how long it takes for everyone to sign in etc. With face recognition it'd be a sinch.

[goonergaz]

Actually, funnily one of the things I'm most looking forward too with Natal is handsfree control of my 360. Mainly just for the cool factor.

But one of the most annoying things when playing splitscreen is how long it takes for everyone to sign in etc. With face recognition it'd be a sinch.

Seriously, do you think you won't need a controller?

I cannot see how this is possible without manic arm movements - the Natal (IMHO) is just a slightly better eyetoy - I've not seen anything that looks more impressive - the Milo demo was clearly stuff of dreams and highly scripted (think back in the days of text adventures, write what the software expects and it's a bit 'wow' type in something else and 'do not understand command' is what you end up with. I can see this being a major problem with Milo type games - esp. in the 'now' - and WRT to 'no controller' - I just don't see it being *that* accurate.

The reason this has had so much hype is simply because MS have bought some hype in Peter Molyneux, the master of over hype. If MS aren't careful they will suffer the same 'backlash' Sony has had regarding over promising and under delivering.

I also love the way people completely dismiss the Arc as 'just Wiimote+' - yes it's very similar, but it offers clear advantages (shoudl it work to it's potential) and it'll be more likely to be implemented by devs.

[patsu]

We talked about head tracking vs 3D vision before. Portable consoles (in this case, DSi) would be a great place for these innovations (using gyro instead of head tracking):
http://www.siliconera.com/2010/02/26/hidden-3d-pictures-uses-dsi-camera-to-add-a-3d-effect/

h5QSclrIdlE

[Silent_Buddha]

I also love the way people completely dismiss the Arc as 'just Wiimote+' - yes it's very similar, but it offers clear advantages (shoudl it work to it's potential) and it'll be more likely to be implemented by devs.

If Wiimote+ truly has 1 to 1 tracking, I'm not sure what Arc by itself will do significantly better.

Now Arc + PS3 eye will obviously have a leg up on things a dev could do...

Anyway, I'm still waiting for E3 and some product announcements before deciding whether X control can do something that Y or Z control can't do. :p

The only thing I know right now, is that if MS provides a way to use Natal with Win7, I'm buying one as soon as it launches. :) And if UI and media playback can use it well on X360, it'll get one for that also, regardless of whether the games for it are crap.

Regards,
SB

[patsu]

If Wiimote+ truly has 1 to 1 tracking, I'm not sure what Arc by itself will do significantly better.

Now Arc + PS3 eye will obviously have a leg up on things a dev could do...


There seems to be no need for recalibration (at least throughout the E3 tech demo). But I am waiting for official confirmation.

For Arc + PSEye...

The functional difference would be in the software. e.g., If you look at the E3 demo, the younger demonstrator talked about writing using Arc. If it's a straightforward implementation, you write on the TV surface which is 3-4 feet away. Any small action in your hands would translate into large and shaking movement (like "writing with a one meter pen").

Because of accurate absolute positioning, it looks like they brought the "virtual paper" forward so that it's akin to writing on a regular piece of paper close to the Arc controller (i.e., easier to write precisely). As I understand, 1-to-1 true mapping is not the same as (accurate) absolute positioning.


I am sure Nintendo will have more surprises for Vitality Sensor + Wiimote+. They would have been a good fit for Heavy Rain. You have no idea how hard I struggled in one of the scenes because of psychological/emotional factors (I shed a tear, just one drop).

[Graham]

... the Milo demo was clearly stuff of dreams and highly scripted (think back in the days of text adventures, write what the software expects and it's a bit 'wow' type in something else and 'do not understand command' is what you end up with....

My understanding is that while the Milo demo shown at E3 was very limited, the actual video ('Milo and Kate') was genuine interaction with the game.

[scently]

Eurogamer and several other sites had a hands on time with Milo demo, so it is not "stuff of dream".

[AzBat]

Evidently Microsoft got tired of some of the stopwatch talk coming from the recent New York demo. Found this at the MTV Multiplayer Blog...

The proof of concept "Project Natal" demo shown in New York last week was not new, nor was it intended to show incremental progress. We wanted to share the same E3 experience with those who weren’t able to experience “Project Natal” in June. However, the “Project Natal” development team has been hard at work perfecting the technology over the past eight months and will continue to do so. When "Project Natal" launches this holiday, the experiences will be in keeping with Xbox 360 standards of performance and will transform living room entertainment.

http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2010/02/27/project-natal-timing-the-delay/

Looks like they are also holding back on the new stuff. They made their bed though. I'm sure there will be a few nuggets released before E3 because the natives are getting way too restless & MS will need to satisfy them just enough to hold them till E3.

Tommy McClain

[patsu]

Another video on the same demo:
http://gizmodo.com/5481957/breakdancing-is-no-match-for-project-natals-sensors
One can sense the Natal "treatment". I feel the lag measurements are not so meaningful without understanding the context.

I am pretty sure the developers will pick game concepts around what Natal can deliver well.

[patsu]

Eurogamer and several other sites had a hands on time with Milo demo, so it is not "stuff of dream".

Part of the Milo E3 demo was a concept video (especially the smooth natural speech interaction part). The rest are work in progress (e.g. facial recognition). I suspect they would want to get some sort of sketch recognition (like EyeToy) going.

I finally found a "cleaner" version of the Real Kanojo (Girlfriend) title I saw on GAF. It uses webcam (for head tracking), mouse input, cheap 3D glasses to present a girl friend simulator:

LIp7oBHL0KA

P4hygx6Y9z4

(Yeah, it's all in Japanese but should be self-explanatory)

[AzBat]

Another video on the same demo:
http://gizmodo.com/5481957/breakdancing-is-no-match-for-project-natals-sensors
One can sense the Natal "treatment". I feel the lag measurements are not so meaningful without understanding the context.

I am pretty sure the developers will pick game concepts around what Natal can deliver well.

Loved that video! :) Definitely shows one core game concept that's doable: dancing. Think we might see some kind of Dance Hero? LOL Personally I wouldn't play it as have I no rhythm or coordination, but I'm sure it would have lots of fans.

Tommy McClain

[obonicus]

The question is: will Natal allow for nose-picking?

HlYafZE3llc

[scently]

Part of the Milo E3 demo was a concept video (especially the smooth natural speech interaction part). The rest are work in progress (e.g. facial recognition). I suspect they would want to get some sort of sketch recognition (like EyeToy) going.

I finally found a "cleaner" version of the Real Kanojo (Girlfriend) title I saw on GAF. It uses webcam (for head tracking), mouse input, cheap 3D glasses to present a girl friend simulator:

LIp7oBHL0KA

P4hygx6Y9z4

(Yeah, it's all in Japanese but should be self-explanatory)
I think you should read the hands on account on eurogamer.

[ShadowRunner]

Loved that video! :) Definitely shows one core game concept that's doable: dancing. Think we might see some kind of Dance Hero? LOL Personally I wouldn't play it as have I no rhythm or coordination, but I'm sure it would have lots of fans.

Tommy McClain

Yep there is massive potential in game concepts like that. At the same time its those types of games, that require you to be in time with music, that require minimal lag. Its a wait and see game for now hopefully we will see more at GDC.

I wonder what types of games developers have in the works rite now, given that the evel of performance hasnt been nailed down. Id imagine most would be playing it safe so we may see that at launch we have mostly game concepts were lag is not such an issue...

[patsu]

I think you should read the hands on account on eurogamer.

What's the URL ? I can't seem to find a Eurogamer link on google. There is a play.tm link but it requires registration.

[scently]

Here you go.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/e3-project-natal-hands-on
and
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/e3-project-natals-molyneux-and-milo-interview

[patsu]

Oh those. I have already read them. Still very early at that time. ^_^
I figured they would work on it more to understand Natal's strength and limitations. The concept itself is familiar (e.g., Apple's Knowledge Navigator, Eyedentify, EyePet, and now Real Kanojo). They may repurpose it for a different game for all we know.

[goonergaz]

Eurogamer and several other sites had a hands on time with Milo demo, so it is not "stuff of dream".

All of whom will have been 'hand held' through the interactive demo...let's see what happens when joe public get a go before we say it "works properly". WRT my 'stuff of dreams' comment - it wasn't that it didn't work - just that it won't be in any games (any time soon).

Think of it like watching someone play Heavy Rain - from the outside you think 'wow - look what you can do' however eventually you get your hands on the controller and find you can only follow set paths and most of the controls are simply correct button presses at the correct time.

[goonergaz]

For Arc + PSEye...

The functional difference would be in the software. e.g., If you look at the E3 demo, the younger demonstrator talked about writing using Arc. If it's a straightforward implementation, you write on the TV surface which is 3-4 feet away. Any small action in your hands would translate into large and shaking movement (like "writing with a one meter pen").

Because of accurate absolute positioning, it looks like they brought the "virtual paper" forward so that it's akin to writing on a regular piece of paper close to the Arc controller (i.e., easier to write precisely). As I understand, 1-to-1 true mapping is not the same as (accurate) absolute positioning.

Aye, there seems more to the Arc - I guess time will tell.

[scently]

Former member and co-founder of Naughty dog on Natal.
http://www.thatvideogameblog.com/2010/02/28/naughty-dog-co-founder-natals-killer-app-may-not-be-a-game/
Apparently he is a believer.

[patsu]

Hah, already figured out that part (UI innovation, integration with living room functions, and rise of natural interface non-games on consoles). That's why the "flailing game demo" does not show Natal's strength. If all goes well, we should see similar capabilities on other platforms too.

[scently]

Valve chief on Natal, among other things.
http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=236878

[AzBat]

New details on Natal coming out of Microsoft TechFest...

But the clearest leap is likely to be Microsoft's Project Natal system for the Xbox 360, which was also demonstrated during the session using a near-final version of the hardware, set to go on sale this holiday season.

Xbox exec Don Mattrick declined to provide retail pricing but lots of details of the Natal technology were provided.

Photos were prohibited, but the hardware is a smoother, larger version of the developer version that was released last year. The current iteration is about 10 inches long, in white plastic with tapered ends like a 2 x 2 with miter cuts, on a white base with the same design as the current Xbox Live Vision camera accessory.

Microphones for sound recognition were on the underneath plane, and the plane facing players had three sensors. One is a light projector used to ensure the system performs despite lighting conditions in a room. Another is a color Webcam sensor and the third is a black and white CMOS sensor used to monitor depth in the room.

The system operates at 30 frames per second and uses its readings and motion analysis to calculate likely actions players are taking in real time, with an algorithm that uses less processing power than a cellphone.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/technologybrierdudleysblog/2011224222_microsoft_techfest_natal_detai.html

This is same guy who had photos of the developer prototype. Can sombody with some PhotoShop skills knock together something that looks liket that?

Tommy McClain

[rabidrabbit]

A light projector? Is it projecting visible light to light up the room?
I hope that means infrared light, otherwise this is just another camera device that won't work well with front projectors and darkened rooms.

[patsu]

http://www.siliconera.com/2010/03/01/a-playstation-arc-trademark-wonder-what-thats-for/


Next week Sony plans on unveiling their motion controller and probably it’s official name, “PlayStation Arc.” Sony filed a trademark for PlayStation Arc in Japan, which also happens to be the rumored name for Sony’s motion controller.

[AzBat]

A light projector? Is it projecting visible light to light up the room?
I hope that means infrared light, otherwise this is just another camera device that won't work well with front projectors and darkened rooms.

Doens't look like it...

As a device Natal is a thin bar about 12 inches across, with sensors that measure a room's depth, the available light and the size and motion of up to two gamers standing in front of the machine and multiple players taking turns.

http://www.forbes.com/2010/03/02/microsoft-wii-videogames-technology-business-intelligence-natal.html

Tommy McClain

[LightHeaven]

Doens't look like it...



http://www.forbes.com/2010/03/02/microsoft-wii-videogames-technology-business-intelligence-natal.html

Tommy McClain

Now natal only recognizes two players? Fuuuuu

Edit: At least they say the software would run on a cell phone, so its probably pretty lightweight...

[LightHeaven]

A light projector? Is it projecting visible light to light up the room?
I hope that means infrared light, otherwise this is just another camera device that won't work well with front projectors and darkened rooms.

Its probably invisible light (IR).

[ShadowRunner]

Now natal only recognizes two players? Fuuuuu

Edit: At least they say the software would run on a cell phone, so its probably pretty lightweight...

Depends what cellphone they are talking about i guess :wink:

[Prophecy2k]

Now natal only recognizes two players? Fuuuuu

Edit: At least they say the software would run on a cell phone, so its probably pretty lightweight...

Knew it knew it!!!

I couldn't imagine how'd they be able to do upto 4 people accurately and reliably without a considerably large hit to performance.

It just isn't logical...

I'm rather eager to know how well Natal deals with two people now.

[goonergaz]

can't say I'm surprised. So, it 'only' costs $40 to produce...how much to the wifi adapters/HDDs/other proprierty add-ons cost to produce and what do they retail for? maybe we can guesstimate the retail from that?

[AzBat]

The Forbes articles guesses $100, but the other article guesses it bundled with the system to cost $200. I'm thinking around the $80 range now. Wished it was around the $60.

Tommy McClain

[obonicus]

$40 to produce, really? I thought it would retail for $40.

[Shifty Geezer]

It may still do depending on what MS is willing to invest to increase user base. Loss-leading is an option.

[liolio]

Some news (http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1594515/microsoft-pushes-sexy-interface)

[LightHeaven]

can't say I'm surprised. So, it 'only' costs $40 to produce...how much to the wifi adapters/HDDs/other proprierty add-ons cost to produce and what do they retail for? maybe we can guesstimate the retail from that?
Does it says there it costs $40 to produce? Is it a speculation or Ms gave the details?

Knew it knew it!!!

I couldn't imagine how'd they be able to do upto 4 people accurately and reliably without a considerably large hit to performance.

It just isn't logical...

I'm rather eager to know how well Natal deals with two people now.
I'm kinda disappointed for that, but maybe Forbes got that wrong? (They seemed to get the IR light part wrong, and they are the first and currently only ones to make such claim, so maybe...)

Depends what cellphone they are talking about i guess :wink:
Well, at least they haven't said smart phones, maybe on the processing side the overhead will be really low :P

[Rotmm]

$40 to produce, really? I thought it would retail for $40.

WiiFit, with the balance board, sold at $90/£70 and has sold to about 1/3 of the Wii user base. WiiPlay, with the additional controller, has sold even more at $60/£50. And then, of course, you have the Guitar/Band games.

If MS get it right and bundle it with the correct piece of software, and of course market it properly, then it will sell hugely at anything up to $100/£70. If they don't, then it doesn't really matter if it's only $40.... the uptake will be poor.

[goonergaz]

WiiFit, with the balance board, sold at $90/£70 and has sold to about 1/3 of the Wii user base. WiiPlay, with the additional controller, has sold even more at $60/£50. And then, of course, you have the Guitar/Band games.

If MS get it right and bundle it with the correct piece of software, and of course market it properly, then it will sell hugely at anything up to $100/£70. If they don't, then it doesn't really matter if it's only $40.... the uptake will be poor.

Couple of things:

1) Wii is a totally different market. IMHO the X360 is largely hardcore gamers who like FPSs - call the generalisin, but there's evidence to back this up.

2) WiiPlay is basically a controller with free games - additional controllers sell well anyway, but I know plenty of people who manipulated the system (and therefore screwed the accuracy of the figures) by buying the pack and selling the game on to help make the controller cheaper.

WRT Natal I can see a particular segment of gamers picking it up, and maybe it might entice some casual gamers - but they already have the Wii so I don't think that's likely.

A lot of this will be down to how well it's marketed and packaged, but I doubt most of the current X360 gamers really care at all about this...

[scently]

Couple of things:

1) Wii is a totally different market. IMHO the X360 is largely hardcore gamers who like FPSs - call the generalisin, but there's evidence to back this up.

2) WiiPlay is basically a controller with free games - additional controllers sell well anyway, but I know plenty of people who manipulated the system (and therefore screwed the accuracy of the figures) by buying the pack and selling the game on to help make the controller cheaper.

WRT Natal I can see a particular segment of gamers picking it up, and maybe it might entice some casual gamers - but they already have the Wii so I don't think that's likely.

A lot of this will be down to how well it's marketed and packaged, but I doubt most of the current X360 gamers really care at all about this...
So you think that is really targeting the current 360 owners and not the casual market?

[goonergaz]

So you think that is really targeting the current 360 owners and not the casual market?

What I'm saying is the casual market is already owned. What reason would the casual gamer have to buy X360 + Natal over the Wii/PS3?

As things stand (casual gamer market):

Wii
PS3
X360

If MS want to widen it's appeal (where they keep trying but largely failing - see their camera and Lips/scene-it), most casual gamers will think it's an eye toy or will already have a Wii...so no need to buy...their main concern (initially) is surely the 35M (or whatever it is) customers allready on board.

If the X360 had launched with this it might have been different.

Just my thoughts of course.

[Shifty Geezer]

If MS want to widen it's appeal (where they keep trying but largely failing - see their camera and Lips/scene-it), most casual gamers will think it's an eye toy or will already have a Wii...so no need to buy...I'm seeing a different possibility. The Casuals liked Wii, but it's old hat now. There's nothing new happening with it, and spending more money on their Wii means spending on more of the same experience. Natal (and perhaps Arc to a lesser degree) will offer them something new. At the end of the day it's the experience consumers want, and we want new experiences. The interface limits that prevented Casuals from trying out the joys of gaming that we have known for years have blown away, meaning they can be opened up to lots of new epxeriences. It'll be down to the console companies and their interface options to draw in this new wave of gamers.

[scently]

What I'm saying is the casual market is already owned. What reason would the casual gamer have to buy X360 + Natal over the Wii/PS3?

As things stand (casual gamer market):

Wii
PS3
X360

If MS want to widen it's appeal (where they keep trying but largely failing - see their camera and Lips/scene-it), most casual gamers will think it's an eye toy or will already have a Wii...so no need to buy...their main concern (initially) is surely the 35M (or whatever it is) customers allready on board.

If the X360 had launched with this it might have been different.

Just my thoughts of course.
You really need to do more research before you jump to conclusion.
MS IS going after the casual market with Natal, and of course it can be used to play certain hardcore game in conjunction with the normal controller. This is exactly what they have been saying in their interviews. It will appeal to both end of the gaming spectrum but in differing experiences.
And also you've got third party developers who can do God know what with it.

[LightHeaven]

What I'm saying is the casual market is already owned. What reason would the casual gamer have to buy X360 + Natal over the Wii/PS3?

As things stand (casual gamer market):

Wii
PS3
X360

If MS want to widen it's appeal (where they keep trying but largely failing - see their camera and Lips/scene-it), most casual gamers will think it's an eye toy or will already have a Wii...so no need to buy...their main concern (initially) is surely the 35M (or whatever it is) customers allready on board.

If the X360 had launched with this it might have been different.

Just my thoughts of course.

I really don't think it is... Facebook alone has over 100 million gamers, adding all casual game portals and that number could easily be doubled or even more...

Its only a matter of whether they will be capable of capturing those people or not, but there's literally a open ocean of potential consumers to buy.

[joker454]

What I'm saying is the casual market is already owned. What reason would the casual gamer have to buy X360 + Natal over the Wii/PS3?

Many reasons...some obvious ones being that it makes it easier for a husband to justify the purchase of a 360 if his wife also wants to play it. Or a dude wants to get his girlfriend to play games with him. Perhaps a young boy wants to get his sisters to like it, which makes the 360 easier to ask for as a family Christmas gift. Maybe that early 30's lady who has been eying a 360 to get netflix now will get one as that (inevitable) Natal exercise app pushed them to the point of purchase. Or perhaps early Wii adopters are bored with the machine and want to upgrade. And so on and so on... The casual market is far from locked down. I don't think Arc will succeed partly because of the PS3's price point, but also because Sony once again isn't taking it seriously and it will just land on stores as yet another neglected accessory. Natal on the other hand can be a viable Wii alternative. It should be similarly priced to the Wii and will be heavily backed with content specifically targeting new audiences.


As things stand (casual gamer market):

Wii
PS3
X360

It's surely a subjective list, but personally XBLive offers far more to casual gamers than PSN does, almost lopsided I'd say. Add in the ability to play demos for all content on XBLive and it's the obvious choice for the casual gamer.

[Silent_Buddha]

What I'm saying is the casual market is already owned. What reason would the casual gamer have to buy X360 + Natal over the Wii/PS3?


Myspace owned online social networking until Facebook took it away from them, despite everyone thinking Facebook would fail when they started trying.

Nintendo and Sega owned console gaming until Sony launched the PS.

Nothing is ever set in stone.

That said, what the heck is "X360 + Natal over the Wii/PS3." Right now the PS3 is as much a casual console as the X360. :p The Wii has a few demographics all to itself currently while the X360 and PS3 share demographics.

Whether Natal ends up making X360 more casual than Arc makes PS3 might be up for debate. But from what has been shown and what has been said. PS3 is definitely targetting the Wii's demographics. While Natal (from apperances and statements from MS) is only tangentially targetting the Wii demographics while trying to create an all new demographic (one that is adverse to using/learning how to use controllers, arguable whether that exists or not).

Regards,
SB

[Lucid_Dreamer]

Many reasons...some obvious ones being that it makes it easier for a husband to justify the purchase of a 360 if his wife also wants to play it. Or a dude wants to get his girlfriend to play games with him. Perhaps a young boy wants to get his sisters to like it, which makes the 360 easier to ask for as a family Christmas gift. Maybe that early 30's lady who has been eying a 360 to get netflix now will get one as that (inevitable) Natal exercise app pushed them to the point of purchase. Or perhaps early Wii adopters are bored with the machine and want to upgrade. And so on and so on... The casual market is far from locked down. I don't think Arc will succeed partly because of the PS3's price point, but also because Sony once again isn't taking it seriously and it will just land on stores as yet another neglected accessory. Natal on the other hand can be a viable Wii alternative. It should be similarly priced to the Wii and will be heavily backed with content specifically targeting new audiences.




It's surely a subjective list, but personally XBLive offers far more to casual gamers than PSN does, almost lopsided I'd say. Add in the ability to play demos for all content on XBLive and it's the obvious choice for the casual gamer.
Aren't you getting ahead of yourself here (in bold)?

[patsu]

http://www.siliconera.com/2010/03/01/gradius-arc-color-us-curious-konami/


Konami may have come down with a case of shoot ‘em up fever and have a new Gradius game in the works called Gradius Arc.


Not sure if it's Arc related (like EyePetArc.com)

[Silent_Buddha]

Granted I haven't played a Gradius game in well over a decade, but I don't see that being conducive to motion controls. I remember Gradius games as requiring split second precision movements in order to survive more than a few levels.

Not sure what parts of Gradius would be amenable to motion controls.

Regards,
SB

[Rotmm]

Couple of things:

1) Wii is a totally different market. IMHO the X360 is largely hardcore gamers who like FPSs - call the generalisin, but there's evidence to back this up....etc

A lot of this will be down to how well it's marketed and packaged, but I doubt most of the current X360 gamers really care at all about this...

I don't altogether disagree... it's all down to the marketing and whether or not the games at launch are able to appeal to both the current 360 owners and potential 360 owners.

However, to catagorise X360 owners as FPS freaks is maybe a generalisation too far. Hardcore, probably yes, but I'd say Shooters, Racers, Guitar Band and Sports are the big sellers. And if Natal can tap into any of those markets, it has a great chance of success. On top of that, puzzle games over XBLA have generally been very popular.

Indeed, even if it's just a case of the 360's GUI being able to be controlled "Minority Support" style, that will have an appeal to a lot of those hardcore gamers as they'll think it's "cool".

What I'm saying is the casual market is already owned. What reason would the casual gamer have to buy X360 + Natal over the Wii/PS3?

As things stand (casual gamer market):

Wii
PS3
X360

If MS want to widen it's appeal (where they keep trying but largely failing - see their camera and Lips/scene-it), most casual gamers will think it's an eye toy or will already have a Wii...so no need to buy...their main concern (initially) is surely the 35M (or whatever it is) customers allready on board.

With regards to the Casual market, clearly the Wii holds a huge lead. However, I'm not convinced that the PS3 has attracted much of a casual market at all this generation. The vast majority of the top sellers on the PS3 are of the hardcore "shooter, fighter" variety, along with the same smattering of Guitar Band and racing-type games. Titles such as Singstar and Eyepet haven't really gain any significant amount of traction, just as Lips, etc haven't.

I''d contend that it would be just as easy to say the 360 is more "casual friendly" than the PS3 as it would be the other way around.

However, it's pretty much a meaningless comment to make, as both usersbases are primarily hardcore.

And this is something that Sony recognises. The Arc isn't designed to appeal to the casual market. All of the promises of 1:1 pixel mapping and unprecedented accuracy with user control show is something that is of no interest to the casual market, which is why Sony is appealing to the current hardcore fanbase with the product. And, with the right product (and marketing), it will sell well, but it's not designed to expand the PS3's market outside of the current usersbase.

As you pointed out, NATAL is something of an anathema to the majority of the current 360 userbase and MS are taking much more of a gamble in attempting to appeal to a wider audience. However, they are probably working on the assumption that there are quite a lot of "Dual console" families out there, who have both a Wii and a 360 (just as there are with Wii/PS3 combos) that there is a ready-made market there in which they can gain some traction.

But outside of that? They need a killer-app that'll appeal to the casuals, and I'm not convinced that MS have it in them.

[patsu]

Granted I haven't played a Gradius game in well over a decade, but I don't see that being conducive to motion controls. I remember Gradius games as requiring split second precision movements in order to survive more than a few levels.

Not sure what parts of Gradius would be amenable to motion controls.


What about draw your own space ship (Sketch recognition) and 3DTV compatible ? The control scheme would be tricky to innovate.

Konami already implemented head tracking and 3DTV for Metal Gears Online Arcade. Peace Walker has AI weapons which can sing using VOCALOID.

[Prophecy2k]

Whether Natal ends up making X360 more casual than Arc makes PS3 might be up for debate. But from what has been shown and what has been said. PS3 is definitely targetting the Wii's demographics. While Natal (from apperances and statements from MS) is only tangentially targetting the Wii demographics while trying to create an all new demographic (one that is adverse to using/learning how to use controllers, arguable whether that exists or not).

This is somthing i've been questioning for a long time... The Wii has done excellently in producing and selling appealing videogame and non-videogame software to over 50 million households worldwide, with a controller that is arguably a little more complex than a SNES controller.

Some of these casual folks who bought the Wii were previously non-gamers predominantly, and constantly express their gaming preferences in their purchases of pseudo-games like Wii-fit, Just-dance etc...

However, many are very happy to continue with their Wii gaming system and do not see the Wii-Mote, balance board etc as a barrier to entry into video gaming.

I really can't concieve in my mind who these "so-called masses" who fear games controllers actually are...? If they even exist at all...

Again, i'm not very sure that Natal will provide enough of a meaningful difference in gaming/non-gaming experiences from the likes of eyetoy, MSvision and PSeye, for those casuals who were afraid of game controllers to actually go out and put down money on both the Natal peripheral PLUS 360 console.

I'm just unsure how large the market for Natal actually is... again though it depends on the direction MS ultmately takes the platform with it's software.

I guess the beauty of Natal being a platform for many different types of games and experiences is that it's the software that creates the appeal towards one demographic over another.

[V3]

What's the ETA on Natal and Arc ? Any in depth impression yet from the final products ?

[Brad Grenz]

This Fall. No. Supposedly we'll see more Arc at GDC. Both will probably have big presentations at E3.

[MfA]

Konami already implemented head tracking
Wee the avatar's head moves with yours ... gimmickiest of gimmicks.

[patsu]

From one of the videos, it looks like the reticule/view moves with the player's head. Need to try it out to confirm. I didn't really look at the avatar's head to see if it's in sync with the user's head.

[scently]

Peter Molyneux on Natal
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/molyneux-natal-improvements-are-countless
From what he is saying the version still being use for demoes are quite old.

[MfA]

From one of the videos, it looks like the reticule/view moves with the player's head. Need to try it out to confirm. I didn't really look at the avatar's head to see if it's in sync with the user's head.
The reticule is obviously going to be where the gun points.

If they use the head movement for real control it would have to be for camera movement (although personally I'd think that would be incredibly unnatural).

[patsu]

I heard GT5 uses head tracking in a similar manner. Will have to see how well it works.

[scently]

I heard GT5 uses head tracking in a similar manner. Will have to see how well it works.
The GT5 headtracking, from what was discussed by DF uses the Eyetoy, you don't have to attach anything to your head like the MGS arcade game.

[patsu]

GT5 uses facial/head tracking while the Metal Gears Arcade seems to use a sensor. I was referring to the use of "head cam/sight" in games (regardless of how they track it).

Should GT5 adopts 3DTV tech, then it will be like the Metal Gears Arcade set up (Need a pair of 3D glasses).

[goonergaz]

You really need to do more research before you jump to conclusion.
MS IS going after the casual market with Natal, and of course it can be used to play certain hardcore game in conjunction with the normal controller. This is exactly what they have been saying in their interviews. It will appeal to both end of the gaming spectrum but in differing experiences.
And also you've got third party developers who can do God know what with it.

Sorry, I didn't realise you held the rights on research and I never said MS ISN'T going for the casual market.

TBH I think you should lower your expectations a little...you could do yourself a favour by not believeing everything Peter Molyneux says!

[goonergaz]

Many reasons...some obvious ones being that it makes it easier for a husband to justify the purchase of a 360 if his wife also wants to play it. Or a dude wants to get his girlfriend to play games with him. Perhaps a young boy wants to get his sisters to like it, which makes the 360 easier to ask for as a family Christmas gift. Maybe that early 30's lady who has been eying a 360 to get netflix now will get one as that (inevitable) Natal exercise app pushed them to the point of purchase. Or perhaps early Wii adopters are bored with the machine and want to upgrade. And so on and so on... The casual market is far from locked down. I don't think Arc will succeed partly because of the PS3's price point, but also because Sony once again isn't taking it seriously and it will just land on stores as yet another neglected accessory. Natal on the other hand can be a viable Wii alternative. It should be similarly priced to the Wii and will be heavily backed with content specifically targeting new audiences.




It's surely a subjective list, but personally XBLive offers far more to casual gamers than PSN does, almost lopsided I'd say. Add in the ability to play demos for all content on XBLive and it's the obvious choice for the casual gamer.

Regarding the first comment, I didn't say it wouldn't sell - I'm just saying the stigma this gen is already stuck...MS will have to work really hard as it's so late. I think (like XB1 was) - Natal will be their 'foot in the door' as it were. Test the waters.

WRT XBL v PSN - I can't see how a service you have to pay for monthly (and also per account) offers more than a free service which (to a casual gamer) is nigh on identical! And when you factor in families (a bigger market and even maore casual) XBL goes out the window for me - I'm not paying for 4 accounts!

[goonergaz]

Myspace owned online social networking until Facebook took it away from them, despite everyone thinking Facebook would fail when they started trying.

Nintendo and Sega owned console gaming until Sony launched the PS.

Nothing is ever set in stone.

That said, what the heck is "X360 + Natal over the Wii/PS3." Right now the PS3 is as much a casual console as the X360. :p The Wii has a few demographics all to itself currently while the X360 and PS3 share demographics.

Whether Natal ends up making X360 more casual than Arc makes PS3 might be up for debate. But from what has been shown and what has been said. PS3 is definitely targetting the Wii's demographics. While Natal (from apperances and statements from MS) is only tangentially targetting the Wii demographics while trying to create an all new demographic (one that is adverse to using/learning how to use controllers, arguable whether that exists or not).

Regards,
SB

WRT the Facebook comment, they're free services...so it's not a fair comparison, but I understand (and agree) with what you're saying but again - I mean this gen. We're over half-way through...I think anything now (in particular Natal) is testing the water.

[goonergaz]

I don't altogether disagree... it's all down to the marketing and whether or not the games at launch are able to appeal to both the current 360 owners and potential 360 owners.

However, to catagorise X360 owners as FPS freaks is maybe a generalisation too far. Hardcore, probably yes, but I'd say Shooters, Racers, Guitar Band and Sports are the big sellers. And if Natal can tap into any of those markets, it has a great chance of success. On top of that, puzzle games over XBLA have generally been very popular.

Indeed, even if it's just a case of the 360's GUI being able to be controlled "Minority Support" style, that will have an appeal to a lot of those hardcore gamers as they'll think it's "cool".



With regards to the Casual market, clearly the Wii holds a huge lead. However, I'm not convinced that the PS3 has attracted much of a casual market at all this generation. The vast majority of the top sellers on the PS3 are of the hardcore "shooter, fighter" variety, along with the same smattering of Guitar Band and racing-type games. Titles such as Singstar and Eyepet haven't really gain any significant amount of traction, just as Lips, etc haven't.

I''d contend that it would be just as easy to say the 360 is more "casual friendly" than the PS3 as it would be the other way around.

However, it's pretty much a meaningless comment to make, as both usersbases are primarily hardcore.

And this is something that Sony recognises. The Arc isn't designed to appeal to the casual market. All of the promises of 1:1 pixel mapping and unprecedented accuracy with user control show is something that is of no interest to the casual market, which is why Sony is appealing to the current hardcore fanbase with the product. And, with the right product (and marketing), it will sell well, but it's not designed to expand the PS3's market outside of the current usersbase.

As you pointed out, NATAL is something of an anathema to the majority of the current 360 userbase and MS are taking much more of a gamble in attempting to appeal to a wider audience. However, they are probably working on the assumption that there are quite a lot of "Dual console" families out there, who have both a Wii and a 360 (just as there are with Wii/PS3 combos) that there is a ready-made market there in which they can gain some traction.

But outside of that? They need a killer-app that'll appeal to the casuals, and I'm not convinced that MS have it in them.

I never said FPS freaks! However, if you look at the top titles they are FPS heavy (Halo, Gears (ok - not FPS but you know what I mean)).

I'm sure Natal will appear cool, it just has to be significantly better than eyetoy - because (as already demonstrated earlier) eyetoy had 'minority report' sytle software but if it's not very accurate...

I'd say Singstar is far more popluar than Lips, there's certainly more 'buzz' on the net. Then you have free online which is great for casual gamers who only play online infrequently...buzz tv also is good for casual fun - I certainly think people underestimate the free online for casual gamers.

I totally agree tho that Sony are aiming for the hardcore (but also casual) gamer with the arc. I'm looking forward to KZ3/LBP and the Mrs Virtua Tennis ;)

[scently]

Sorry, I didn't realise you held the rights on research and I never said MS ISN'T going for the casual market.

TBH I think you should lower your expectations a little...you could do yourself a favour by not believeing everything Peter Molyneux says!
Dude, my expectation are exactly where I want it to be, thank you very much.:roll:

[Silent_Buddha]

This is somthing i've been questioning for a long time... The Wii has done excellently in producing and selling appealing videogame and non-videogame software to over 50 million households worldwide, with a controller that is arguably a little more complex than a SNES controller.

Some of these casual folks who bought the Wii were previously non-gamers predominantly, and constantly express their gaming preferences in their purchases of pseudo-games like Wii-fit, Just-dance etc...

However, many are very happy to continue with their Wii gaming system and do not see the Wii-Mote, balance board etc as a barrier to entry into video gaming.

The balance board is probably closest to the the demographic that MS is trying to create/exploit with Natal.

It's a controller that requires no learning. You don't have to remember what button does what, you don't need to look in the manual or the button config screen to figure out which button does jump/shoot/select/deselect/options/whatever.

You just start the game and use it. I know a few households where certain members of the family only use Wii Fit (or similar) and rarely ever touch the regular Wii controls.

Now, will that translate over to Natal? And more importantly is there actually a large demographic of people who are disinclined to using a console controller but are interested in console gaming? That's something we won't know until Natal launches.

And that's only MS's target. 3rd parties obviously have a lot more latitude in what they choose to target with the system (For example Capcom with their rejuvenation of a past game). As such, I wouldn't be surprised to see a game using the standard X360 controller and using Natal to enhance the experience. Although I'm fully expecting most of the 14 launch titles to be using Natal exclusively in hopefully innovative game types.

I'm trying my best not to think too much on this until E3. :) But I always find the possibilities fascinating. And I'm still more interested in Natal as it relates to the PC than the console. heh.

Regards,
SB

[goonergaz]

Dude, my expectation are exactly where I want it to be, thank you very much.:roll:

Good for you, mine also.

[eastmen]

I'm still pissed that face maping hasn't been done more. Its such an awsome feature. Imagine if in fall out 3 or oblivion they used the camera to make your face in the game as your character.

I hope natal allows for this. Otherwise I"m a sad man.

[goonergaz]

I'm still pissed that face maping hasn't been done more. Its such an awsome feature. Imagine if in fall out 3 or oblivion they used the camera to make your face in the game as your character.

I hope natal allows for this. Otherwise I"m a sad man.

I'm sure it will be, it's been 'on the cards' since the first eyetoy hasn't it!?

[scently]

I'm still pissed that face maping hasn't been done more. Its such an awsome feature. Imagine if in fall out 3 or oblivion they used the camera to make your face in the game as your character.

I hope natal allows for this. Otherwise I"m a sad man.
Actually Rainbow Six has facial mapping.

[goonergaz]

Actually Rainbow Six has facial mapping.

yes, facial recognition is the key

[Graham]

Back on topic please....

A light projector? Is it projecting visible light to light up the room?
I hope that means infrared light, otherwise this is just another camera device that won't work well with front projectors and darkened rooms.

My understanding is that time of flight cameras use pulsed light in non-visible parts of the spectrum. The pulses are generally very, very bright, but incredibly short.

basically...

You fire a very bright pulse of light - at the same time activating the sensor. Each pixel in the depth sensor is effectively a timer, rapidly counting up. When it receives the reflected light pulse back, the energy produced by the sensor stops the timer.
The hardware then reads the timers (pixels).
The times involved are literally nanoseconds, meaning the timers have to be running at crazy high speeds (well into the gigahertz range).

When I first heard about them my instinctive reaction was "that can't be possible". But when you do calculate things, you realise it is possible. It's easy to forget just how fast processors are running now days :mrgreen:


http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/e3-project-natal-hands-on
and
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/e3-project-natals-molyneux-and-milo-interview

I know they are old, but those are really fun to read :yes:

[goonergaz]

My understanding is that time of flight cameras use pulsed light in non-visible parts of the spectrum. The pulses are generally very, very bright, but incredibly short.

basically...

You fire a very bright pulse of light - at the same time activating the sensor. Each pixel in the depth sensor is effectively a timer, rapidly counting up. When it receives the reflected light pulse back, the energy produced by the sensor stops the timer.
The hardware then reads the timers (pixels).
The times involved are literally nanoseconds, meaning the timers have to be running at crazy high speeds (well into the gigahertz range).

When I first heard about them my instinctive reaction was "that can't be possible". But when you do calculate things, you realise it is possible. It's easy to forget just how fast processors are running now days :mrgreen:


initially the unit had (or rumoured) processors on board to hel out.

WRT the tech, how will this translate (in laymans terms) to making this work better than the current cameras out? does it mean you can play with the lights off?

[Shifty Geezer]

WRT the tech, how will this translate (in laymans terms) to making this work better than the current cameras out? does it mean you can play with the lights off?Yes, and it should be very robust in any lighting conditions. More importantly (although perhaps that's arguable!) it can perceive depth, which means it has a better source of data to determine the outline of a person. Ignoring the 3D skeleton tracking, the accuracy of the 2D placement could be better than camera based solutions, and require less processing.

[goonergaz]

fingers crossed that it's accurate with little lag then, there's nothing more frustrating than games without direct tacktile input (controllers) being let down by inconsistent results (wiimote/eyetoy)...it would be great to finally get a robust system in place the gamer can trust! :)

[ShadowRunner]

My understanding is that time of flight cameras use pulsed light in non-visible parts of the spectrum. The pulses are generally very, very bright, but incredibly short.

basically...

You fire a very bright pulse of light - at the same time activating the sensor. Each pixel in the depth sensor is effectively a timer, rapidly counting up. When it receives the reflected light pulse back, the energy produced by the sensor stops the timer.
The hardware then reads the timers (pixels).
The times involved are literally nanoseconds, meaning the timers have to be running at crazy high speeds (well into the gigahertz range).

When I first heard about them my instinctive reaction was "that can't be possible". But when you do calculate things, you realise it is possible. It's easy to forget just how fast processors are running now days :mrgreen:


If Natal is indeed based on the PrimeSense tech, and i believe it is, it doesnt use time of flight. Instead a IR pattern is projected into the room and its the distortion of this pattern, viewed by a standard CMOS sensor, that gives the depth information once processed. Thats my understanding of it anyhow.

From PrimeSense website:
PrimeSense technology for acquiring the depth image is based on Light Coding™. Light Coding works by coding the scene volume with near-IR light. The IR Light Coding is invisible to the human eye. The solution then utilizes a standard off-the-shelf CMOS image sensor to read the coded light back from the scene. PrimeSense’s SoC chip is connected to the CMOS image sensor, and executes a sophisticated parallel computational algorithm to decipher the received light coding and produce a depth image of the scene. The solution is immune to ambient light.

[eastmen]

Actually Rainbow Six has facial mapping.

yes and only that game. Which is a problem !

[Shifty Geezer]

I've just pruned back the game genre distribution branch of this thread. Although there's a valid debate about latent interest in the current install bases and future perceptions of the consoles, and the impact on future adoption of the motion controllers, we don't really need to go into the nitty-gritty details of genre presence across the platforms in this motion controller thread. Please keep these branches to a higher level and if ideas need exploring further, start a new thread. Thanks.

[Graham]

If Natal is indeed based on the PrimeSense tech, and i believe it is, it doesnt use time of flight. Instead a IR pattern is projected into the room and its the distortion of this pattern, viewed by a standard CMOS sensor, that gives the depth information once processed. Thats my understanding of it anyhow.

From PrimeSense website:

Well that's interesting. I had no idea. :mrgreen:
I went hunting for info on depth cameras a while ago, and never came across PrimeSense. I had simply assumed natal would be very similar to the ZCam, given Microsoft's purchase of 3DV.

The PrimeSense reference design certainly looks eerily similar to natal. If their reference specs are similar too, then it's quite the powerful device. The 1600x1200 RGB camera in particular caught my attention, while it's seriously unlikely it'll manage video at that resolution, it does open up a lot of potential possibilities for high quality UGC etc (especially combined with the depth cam).

Interesting their website seems to imply some level of skeletal tracking too. "Gesture API demo" etc

[edit]

Yeah, looks likely it is PrimeSense:


“Microsoft chose to purchase 3DV because it had an interesting set of patents on the hardware side and they chose Prime Sense as a supplier because their technology is going to get to the market in one year, whereas 3DV is more like two to three years,” said Mr MacDougall.


....

As for the Arc,
I was thinking (and this may be public knowledge I'm not aware of), I am wondering how the controller senses depth from it's camera. I wouldn't imagine the resolution of the 2D image would be enough to calculate it (especially if it's partially occluded) so I'm wondering if it emits an ultra high pitch sound, which the PSeye can then pick up. Using pulses or phase change you can do very accurate depth calculation (assuming no major sound reflection).
Given an initial approximate guess based on the video stream, that could work. I guess.

[MfA]

Because of the simple geometric shape you can do a subpixel accurate measurement of the size of the ball, I haven't done the math but I doubt they need more than that for the depth calculation.

[Silent_Buddha]

If Natal is indeed based on the PrimeSense tech, and i believe it is, it doesnt use time of flight. Instead a IR pattern is projected into the room and its the distortion of this pattern, viewed by a standard CMOS sensor, that gives the depth information once processed. Thats my understanding of it anyhow.

From PrimeSense website:

I wouldn't say it was based on PrimeSense but rather similar to it. Parallel but independant research tracks. When it came time to implement MS had to license, crosslicense, or purchase anyone that held patents relevent to what they were planning to market.

Now, it's possible that once they got to that point and saw how similar PrimeSense was they shortened R&D on the camera by leveraging what PrimeSense had done up to then.

Regardless, the camera is far less interesting to me than the image recognition, tracking, and prediction software they have been developing to drive the whole thing. In a sense, the camera is the easy part and the only challenge there is how to reduce cost.

For example, the ability for Natal to accuratly track occluded body parts due to the motion and posture of the rest of the body is particularly impressive, especially more so the fact that it can do it with a range of body sizes, shapes, and individual differences in subtle body motion. IE - not everyone's body moves the exact same way when putting their arm behind their back for example.

Now compound that with multiple bodies in the camera's FOV, and the software being able to not only differentiate, but also continue to track multiple occluded body parts belonging to multiple different people.

And that's just one aspect that I find fascinating. :) Camera is completely boring in comparison. :)

Regards,
SB

[Shifty Geezer]

Now compound that with multiple bodies in the camera's FOV, and the software being able to not only differentiate, but also continue to track multiple occluded body parts belonging to multiple different people.Once you've got a lock, it's not so hard to follow a point, as human motions are speed limited to a readily predictable scale. What will prove the power of their skeleton evaluation is how the device copes in more complex scenarios than people waling into frame which is all that's been demo'd so far AFAIK. eg. If two people entered stage right at the same time, would the skeleton tracking find and lock onto them? I expect not. It'd be an incredible piece of software if it did! Instead it'll need participants to be spacially isolated so that it can find the limbs and get a lock. I expect one could confuse it quite readily if one wanted to. But once it has a lock, following the limbs should be accurate. eg. If I start with my left arm full extended out to my side, Natal will lock onto elbow and wrist. If I then bend my arm forwards so the hand ends on my shoulder, Natal will be able to follow that. However, if enter frame with that end positiin, my elbow sticking out but my hand invisible, it should get confused. If it doesn't, that'll be an absolutely stellar piece of software design! Of course the system shouldn't be expected to deal with trouble makers trying to mess it about, aiming instead to lock onto and track normal use, so it wouldn't be wrong for Natal to get bamboozled in such situations. The point of all this waffle of mine is just to highlight that once you have a lock, tracking where a limb is shouldn't be too hard, even when occluded.

[thop]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B003B20OB4/

[scently]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B003B20OB4/
:smile::lol::lol:

[Graham]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B003B20OB4/

Well isn't that interesting. An October release date has already been suggested. Although I imagine it won't be called Natal by then.

What's the bet the release date will be the 26th of October?

[Lucid_Dreamer]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B003B20OB4/

Aren't retailers dates just guesses for release? For instance, Fall release would have a date from the start of the season.

[Crossbar]

Well isn't that interesting. An October release date has already been suggested. Although I imagine it won't be called Natal by then.

What's the bet the release date will be the 26th of October?

1:1 ?

The price point is very indicative for the kind of casual games that Natal and Arc will excel at. It´s about the same price that I payed for EyePet without camera. But I guess there will be lots of yoga position downloads at peanut price point, just like there are styling packs for EyePet.

Different folks different strokes, the Wii will see some serious competition for the casual crowd this fall.

[Silent_Buddha]

Once you've got a lock, it's not so hard to follow a point, as human motions are speed limited to a readily predictable scale. What will prove the power of their skeleton evaluation is how the device copes in more complex scenarios than people waling into frame which is all that's been demo'd so far AFAIK. eg. If two people entered stage right at the same time, would the skeleton tracking find and lock onto them? I expect not. It'd be an incredible piece of software if it did! Instead it'll need participants to be spacially isolated so that it can find the limbs and get a lock. I expect one could confuse it quite readily if one wanted to. But once it has a lock, following the limbs should be accurate. eg. If I start with my left arm full extended out to my side, Natal will lock onto elbow and wrist. If I then bend my arm forwards so the hand ends on my shoulder, Natal will be able to follow that. However, if enter frame with that end positiin, my elbow sticking out but my hand invisible, it should get confused. If it doesn't, that'll be an absolutely stellar piece of software design! Of course the system shouldn't be expected to deal with trouble makers trying to mess it about, aiming instead to lock onto and track normal use, so it wouldn't be wrong for Natal to get bamboozled in such situations. The point of all this waffle of mine is just to highlight that once you have a lock, tracking where a limb is shouldn't be too hard, even when occluded.

Well according to one article I read that focused on the software behind Natal rather than Natal itself (sorry don't have it anymore, this was months ago and not on a gaming site. :(), that's exactly what they were working on.

It's one of the reasons they scan in millions upon millions of photographs of people in various positions with occluded body parts and doing any number of activities. And then using that room full of servers to do statistical analysis of it all to "learn" (bad word but can't think of one better) where things will be at any given moment due to what it currently is able to see.

Part of the system is obviously just motion prediction. But that is further refined by the statistical probabilities based on body positioning, etc. that it has "learned" in the above exercise.

In more recent Natal impressions there's some mentions being made not only of how it can track occluded body parts, but also how impressed people were at how accurately it tracked occluded body parts.

Now, how well it fares once it's pared down to all fit into the X360 and Natal unit will be interesting.

Either way, it's things like this that I find more fascinating than the camera system. Although that in itself is interesting to watch to see what they do to get it down to a cost effective pricepoint.

Regards,
SB

[Silent_Buddha]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B003B20OB4/

Wonder if that's going to be similar to http://www.amazon.co.uk/Tradewest-Yoga-Wii/dp/B002FGT594/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qid=1268015592&sr=1-1 which is published by the same company. Although retail is only pound 19.99 versus 29.99 while the discounted price is pretty similar.

Regards,
SB

[patsu]

http://www.develop-online.net/news/34076/GDC-Dev-source-backs-claim-of-PS3-nunchuck


A games development source has told Develop that Sony's new Motion Controller device will work in tandem with an optional extra Wii Nunchuck-style add-on.

...

Sony is expected to finally reveal more official details about its new controller on Wednesday evening at a special press conference during GDC.

[obonicus]

Well, it was a Sony rumor, it was bound to be true.

[patsu]

... including the KZ3 rumor + "exemplar" game with 2 free 3D glasses ? :twisted:

Anyway, they have thrown out a motion controller Q&A:
http://gdc.gamespot.com/story/6253204/ps3-motion-controller-qanda

Haven't read it yet (Too busy at work now).

EDIT: GAF seems wowed by this animated GIF:
http://i42.tinypic.com/doqhrl.gif
http://i43.tinypic.com/2r5c1nq.gif (Larger version of the same thing)

... from the R&D video above.

[Lucid_Dreamer]

That GIF is impressive! It seems like that really drives the point home for some of the possibilities Arc can bring to life.

[patsu]

They could very well be a Sith Lord and his new apprentice in that animated GIF.

[Lucid_Dreamer]

For sure! Then, there could be audio detection mixed with it. Imagine fighting and having the OPTION to call upon "the force" by yelling! ;) That one was for free. The next one will cost ya! :)

[eastmen]

That GIF is impressive! It seems like that really drives the point home for some of the possibilities Arc can bring to life.

I'm not sure its limited to only the ARC . As long as natal can see an object it can make a sword also.


1up had a developeron the podcast talking about all there implementations. Worth a listen to

[patsu]

Yes, a camera-based system can detect shapes (e.g., scan a stick) but at a slower pace. Tracking Arc and Wiimote+ movement should be faster because they use internal sensors directly in addition to the camera. The spinning sword example shows the sort of (quick) 1-to-1 true mapping both systems are capable of. We have not heard MS claim the same thing yet.

They don't really need to. Natal is suitable for something else (e.g., imaging the living room, tracking human body).

[Shifty Geezer]

The optical aspect of object placement will work just as well on Natal as Arc. Stick a wagglestick with a big glowing ball on the end and Natal's camera's will see it, with software managing to place it (incidentally, clever idea to obscure the Big Red Blob with a graphic!). What Natal will probably fail out without MEMS in the handheld controller is orientation of the blade. It hasn't the skeletal accuracy to determine hand direction and superimpose the graphic accordingly.

But as Patsu said, this isn't really Natal's target gamestyle.

[Arwin]

The optical aspect of object placement will work just as well on Natal as Arc. Stick a wagglestick with a big glowing ball on the end and Natal's camera's will see it, with software managing to place it (incidentally, clever idea to obscure the Big Red Blob with a graphic!). What Natal will probably fail out without MEMS in the handheld controller is orientation of the blade. It hasn't the skeletal accuracy to determine hand direction and superimpose the graphic accordingly.

I think it can do it if it wants to more or less, just by extending the skeletal model with a sword. I'm sure that's possible one way or another.

However, it will probably never achieve similar reaction speeds - Arc can be near lag-free thanks to its built in motion detection doing most of the work already on its own. The image feed may well just work independently, only providing correction hints in case orientation or other aspects of the 3D spatial positioning are in question.

For Natal,image detection and recognition is the primary input.

[Shifty Geezer]

I think it can do it if it wants to more or less, just by extending the skeletal model with a sword. I'm sure that's possible one way or another. You could find workarounds, but they'd be pretty grotty. Either the blade would be an extension of the arm or fixed perpendicular to it, but you'd have zero wrist control and would have to fight by waving your arm around, which really wouldn't work as a sword fight. Some sct-fi combat game with laser arms, yes, but not a swashbuckler.

[Shifty Geezer]

A good start for Arc from the sounds of it. GI.biz (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/arc-but-not-natal-support-for-tiger-woods-11) is reporting Arc support for PS3 in Tiger Woods but not Natal support, citing timing issues. Similar Edge (http://www.edge-online.com/news/ea-sports-active-20-skips-xbox-360)reports EA is offering EA Sports Active 2 on PS3 alongside Wii but not Natal, which is contrary to what one would expect given the title's mechanic. Perhaps this has something to do with peripheral licensing limits from MS? Otherwise I can't see why they'll strap-on motion sensors (actually not Arc related, so maybe this news doesn't belong here! Maybe they're using Sony's Arc libs to port Wii code?) and provide them for Wii and PS3 but not supply them to XB360.

[grandmaster]

I'm hands on with Arc later today. Anything you want me to test or try?

[Shifty Geezer]

Latency. Any way to measure accuracy? Especially Z position. How it copes with partial sphere occlusion, maybe if it can follow to a degree if it's behind your back, to determine how much of the tracking is based on the MEMS rather than optical tracking. And how much drift there is and if the device needs calibrating.

So nothing you haven't already thought of! Chuck in a few speed tests, swinging it as fast as you can (baseball speed) and see if it's a match. I can't really think of anything out of the obvious worth trying though. Impact damage against an HDTV versus Wiimote probably isn't that important to pin down. :p

[Gradthrawn]

Impact damage against an HDTV versus Wiimote probably isn't that important to pin down. :p

:lol:

Seriously though, I would be curious to see how they plan to address that after learning from Nintendo's experience with that issue. Re-enforced wrist straps? Surface texture changes?

Oh, and the balance of the "wand" itself (top heavy, evenly weighted, etc).

[patsu]

I have a lot of questions !

I am more interested in the hardware itself. I think the build quality, grip and weight of the controller is extremely important (I don't like the look of the controller). Would be great if you can tell us more about the nunchuck, the big button and trigger T. Are any of the buttons pressure sensitive ? Also how robust is the ball (How much force can it sustain), how bright and how dim it can lit (or is it just an off/on thing) ? Can it change color quickly and still have Arc track it properly (If so, how fast can the light change without losing itself) ? As for the rumble (if present), is it the same as DS3 or something different ? Would also like to know about battery requirements and battery life. Any extra ports ?

In terms of usage, I'd love to know the workable range and area, plus number of supported player and their relative CPU usage. If they can't give specific numbers, have them compare with SIXAXIS. Then does the device need recalibration at all, or is it fully automatic ? What happens if you block out the light with your hands ? How long can the light ball stay hidden before the controller go heywire (or turn itself off). i.e., Can I have a game where the player pretend to block off a gust of wind from his/her candle/stick ? (And have Arc track properly within reasonable bounds).

For claims on true 1-to-1 mapping and absolute positioning, how do they prove them to you ?

It would be great if they have attachments for you to test out the various use cases. e.g., steering wheel, pointing a gun/controller at specific points on the screen and have the game translate it into a location or an object in-game (If available, see if you can line up your eyes with the cross-hair and have everything work naturally, and as expected), writing, whipping, tossing, drag-n-drop (like in RTS), jabbing (sword fighting and boxing). In general, does the device behave as expected/intended for any of these game action ? In these actions, the sensitivity of the controller is important. They have to program it in such a way that it feels natural to the users (Tracking cannot be too shaky/exaggerated or too dull). In addition, the system has to work correctly as they switch to different control schemes/modes. e.g., I heard the Logitech AirMouse can confuse the users when they try to pick up the mouse and use it like a laser pointer for a brief moment. There is some unreliable control scheme switching lag in-between.

I think that's enough. :lol:


EDIT: Apparently not. Would you kindly drop the controller on concrete floor and see what happens (to the controller) ? ;-)

Does/Will Sony provide basic modules for common tracking actions or is it always implemented in a proprietary manner by each developers ? This will affect the seamlessness of the user experience (from XMB to different games). Also what UI, XMB features and non-games will take advantage of Arc ?

For that matter, why is it called Arc ?


If all the above tests pass, then I'll need 3 for my family. :)

[Shifty Geezer]

Hmm, yes. Responiveness as a pointing device, targeting as a laser-pointer, is an important consideration. Will we be able to play Arc games lazing on the sofa with just our wrists pointing, with Arc tracking the direction of our point, or is it more dependent on larger arm positions?

[patsu]

Yeah, a couch test should be included.

I'd also do a combo test if possible. i.e., Arc tracking + PSEye processing at the same time (e.g., Speech recognition, facial recognition, head tracking etc.), and Arc tracking + PSEye + 3D vision :twisted:

[thop]

Playstation Move registered yesterday. (http://oami.europa.eu//CTMOnline/RequestManager/en_Result?listType=1&transition=ResultsDetailed&selectOrderby2=&denoselect=1&selectOrderby=&idappli=008936544&ntmark=&application=CTMOnline&bAdvanced=0&totalFound=null&language=en&deno=&/)

What I'd like to be tested is how long can it guesstimate the position when an obstacle is between the light bulb and the camera. Or how it reacts in general in such a case.

[ShadowRunner]

Live streams of the press conference:

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/playstation-gdc-press-conference-2010
http://g4tv.com/gdc2010/articles/70096/GDC_2010_Sony_Press_Conference/

Is the press conference different to the GDC talk 'Introducing the PlayStation 3 Motion Controller' (https://www.cmpevents.com/GD10/a.asp?option=C&V=11&SessID=10534) or is it the same event?

[patsu]

Playstation Move logo:
http://www.thenetwerk.com/games/2010/03/10/sony-files-trademark-application-in-europe-for-playstation-move/

(Should be more rounded)

[Shifty Geezer]

Better name. Rubbish logo.

[Arwin]

Also a live stream on Eurogamer:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/sony-gdc-event-live-coverage-blog-entry

But the event should probably have its own thread.

Live streams of the press conference:

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/playstation-gdc-press-conference-2010
http://g4tv.com/gdc2010/articles/70096/GDC_2010_Sony_Press_Conference/

Is the press conference different to the GDC talk 'Introducing the PlayStation 3 Motion Controller' (https://www.cmpevents.com/GD10/a.asp?option=C&V=11&SessID=10534) or is it the same event?

[patsu]

http://gizmodo.com/5489946/ikat-augmented-reality-app-works-without-real+world-prompt


It's (we think) the first augmented reality phone app to work without a marker, or real-world prompt.

The app itself is pretty basic, just a cartoon-like pet running around on whatever surface you aim the phone at. Zenitum, the South Korean company behind iKat, says the app has to recognize an environment to work:


ibWnY9ZXKzk

Reminds me of Invizimals (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvDWleKmhYs) on the PSP.

[scently]

PSMove, prices and details.
http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/10/playstation-move-motion-controller-launched-at-gdc/

[obonicus]

Under $100 for PSEye, controller and game. An idea of the price for the standalone would be nice, though.

[Arwin]

Alright, so that GDC presentation wasn't overwhelming exactly, but it confirms most of the bits we already knew or suspected (and the final name is indeed Move).

Looks like E3 will be the big 3D reveal, and then we will probably get to see the big games, as many will be doing both Move and 3D I'm sure. Also looking forward to the third party efforts. Most seem on board (36 publishers).

The Nunchuck add-on is shown and looks to be pretty much the same as the Nintendo one, but wireless - a stick with an analog stick on it. They demoed Socom 4 with it, so they seem to be serious about using it in shooters, and from what I could see it definitely works, but the guy demoeing it was holding his controllers incredibly static, making it look a little labored.

The boxing game using two Move controllers looked pretty good, if a bit laggy and limited - the Move controls clearly looked like they were superimposed on a regular controller design, and as long as that happens there's going to be limits to how cool this is going to be. But it definitely hold promise.

I missed some of the first demoes unfortunately, dropped in during the 'Move Play' thing that's a lot like the EyeToy Play mini-game collection. Will see them later.

Good screenshots up, showing the details of the Move (has a wrist-strap ;) ) and the 'Nunchuck', showing R1, R2 and d-pad as well as the analog stick and a Home button. Combined with the Move, you've got pretty much a full controller, though the second analog stick not quite obviously:

http://www.eurogamer.net/gallery.php?article_id=1003302#anchor

[thop]

Too expensive. And lot of games seem to need two so that's even more expensive.

[Rangers]

I think this should confirm Natal is going to be in the $49-$79 range. Move has more parts, it has to include two mechanical controllers and a camera. Natal is just a camera, though a more sophisticated one. Plus MS seems to be planning a more aggressive push for the mass market with Natal. I'm assuming "under 100" =$99 for Move.

Oh yeah, they mentioned a Move PS3 SKU too...hmmm, additional cost of $50? Hardware prices actually going up in the middle of a generation? Will there be non Move SKU's?

If Move is $99 stand alone, I can see that hurting adoption to current owners, that's pretty pricey.

[Squilliam]

Ok, I don't like the size of the main buttons. I know a lot of people who watch TV/play games without glasses and with an aging population I think it limits their penetration with the older audiences and especially those who are less familiar with the Playstation controller.

I wonder what kind of battery life each piece has and how they will be charged? Its a lot of peripherals if you consider the same 2+2 for Wiimote and nunchuck for the PS3.

[Squilliam]

If Move is $99 stand alone, I can see that hurting adoption to current owners, that's pretty pricey.

If they don't bundle it, they could have PS3 + Move for $399 vs Wii + M+ and two games for $190. I wonder what that would do for the value perception?

[NavNucST3]

Too expensive. And lot of games seem to need two so that's even more expensive.

I also do not recall hearing any specific mention of a bundle containing "sub-controller"

[Rangers]

Sub controller was in the base Move package @ "under $100", wasn't it?

[thop]

Yes it's included, but at least two games shown need two glowing controllers. About $119-$129 then.

[corduroygt]

I think this should confirm Natal is going to be in the $49-$79 range. Move has more parts, it has to include two mechanical controllers and a camera. Natal is just a camera, though a more sophisticated one. Plus MS seems to be planning a more aggressive push for the mass market with Natal. I'm assuming "under 100" =$99 for Move.

Oh yeah, they mentioned a Move PS3 SKU too...hmmm, additional cost of $50? Hardware prices actually going up in the middle of a generation? Will there be non Move SKU's?

If Move is $99 stand alone, I can see that hurting adoption to current owners, that's pretty pricey.

My guess is the current $349 250gb unit will include move, while the base $299 will remain unchanged. For existing owners such as myself, it's cheaper than buying a wii to get the casuals in the family into gaming...

[Butta]

subcontroller should have had a glowing orb on it as well... then the thing would have been perfect.

[patsu]

The boxing game using two Move controllers looked pretty good, if a bit laggy and limited - the Move controls clearly looked like they were superimposed on a regular controller design, and as long as that happens there's going to be limits to how cool this is going to be. But it definitely hold promise.

It is a mechanical, lackluster presentation; very typical in large organizations. I don't know what's the purpose of this presentation. The developers who are interested already have devkits ? The consumers who are watching will feel bored because they have seen all these before. The press, where's the press ? ^_^ It looks like a routine update to reassure themselves in a meeting room. Has no marketing touch or flare.

Presentation style reeks of 40-50 year old men droning (No fun, no _young_ girls, no booze, no party, no fanfare). It's a developer conference, but developers are human too.

Okay, now that I get that off my chest... [Phew~]

The most interesting part for me is the video showing the various use cases. It tried to show the differences but I don't think it's sufficient. People will automatically think it's the same Wiimote precision, plus marketing and CG fluff. Instead of superimposed computer graphics, they should superimpose the Move strokes with real-life postures and strokes from various angle (e.g. for Golf, Table Tennis, Archery). Then show the in-game outcome/differences clearly. I'd love to see how accurate they can mimick golf swing. May save Golf Range $$$ for me. ;-) What's the purpose/push/pull factors for upgrading from Wii ? HD ? Nintendo will have HD someday. Just because Sony say so ? Then where are the rah-rah, booze and girls to influence them ? :twisted:

Presenters and demoers need to smile more. Don't slouch.

The E3 demo is more interesting because the researchers were up there explaining the differences. Even Dr. Mark's casual spinning sword move triumphs all these demoes today -- by a few country miles.

The boxing demo has a lot of air-time, looks reasonably convincing. But the game is relatively predictable (No surprise move). Also very limited combo use (Motion + other natural interfaces). EyePet has some of it but it's only a few seconds of old videos.

If they want to reserve the good stuff (e.g., GT5, LBP) for later, then they have to think of more meaty presentations. e.g., Why not show developer tools ? I thought the controller can be trained/programmed by having the SDK learn gestures ?

Will wait for grandmaster's tech article instead.
I hope they didn't waste a lot of money on this presentation.

EDIT: I am rather happy they spell out their intention (e.g., going for Wii upgraders) openly. For better or worse, right or wrong, it helps to focus their presentation (and viewers' perspective), but the follow-up is not strong enough. Nintendo won't be sitting/lying down.

[thop]

The subcontroller is just a controller without any motion detection.

[whome0]

subcontroller should have had a glowing orb on it as well... then the thing would have been perfect.
"Sony says players can also use a DualShock or Sixaxis wireless controller in its place. Both devices are wireless and will include rechargeable batteries, just like standard PS3 controllers."

Maybe they want to keep it as much compatible to Dualshock controller.

[Squilliam]

"Sony says players can also use a DualShock or Sixaxis wireless controller in its place. Both devices are wireless and will include rechargeable batteries, just like standard PS3 controllers."

Maybe they want to keep it as much compatible to Dualshock controller.

Still... Thats very awkward! :roll:

[Butta]

from Kotaku
I just played SOCOM 4 with the newly-named PlayStation Move controller. And now I know how the PlayStation 3's motion-sensitive controller is not just a me-too Wii controller.

-Fewer buttons: The Move controller is actually even more streamlined than the Wii Remote. Nintendo's Remote still offers/confuses a new player with a d-pad, plus, A, minus, 1 and 2 buttons as well as a home button and B trigger. The Move has its own home button and underbelly trigger, but just five other points of button input. That makes the controller actually feel a little naked and therefore likely even less daunting to a new player — unless they need their controllers to look like TV remotes.

-No wasted batteries: The Wii remote sucks up AA battery juice. The Move and its companion sub-controller are rechargeable via the same mini-USB connection used to charge the PS3's main controller.

-A smarter controller: I played SOCOM 4, a third person-shooter, with the Move pointed at the TV like a gun and the sub-controller in my left hand to command character movement. Wii games that were controlled with Remote and Nunchuk could be befuddled if the player pointed the Remote away from the screen. If you were playing a shooter and aimed just off the screen, the game's camera might start spinning or the game would pause and ask for the player to point at the TV again. The combination of camera sensors — the Sony Eyetoy on top of the TV detects the presence of the Move — and a gyroscope prevented SOCOM 4 from getting confused. When I moved my controller to point off of the TV, the gyroscopic sensors kept track of my movement. The same thing happened when a SOCOM developer blocked the Eyetoy camera. The precision of the controller diminishes in these situation. but the PS3 doesn't lose track of the device.

-No wire!: The Wii Remote and Nunchuk are tethered by a short cable. The PS3 Move and its subcontroller are not.

-No off-hand gyro: The Wii Nunchuk has a sensor that detects motion, more crudely than does the Remote. The PS3's version of the Nunchuk, does not have a motion sensor, according to a developer I was speaking to. There's a chance that is not final, but that is the case with the controllers at Sony's showcase event today. But that's why two-handed boxing-style games were shown with two Moves. On the Wii, those kinds of games are handled, with supposedly less precision, with a Remote and Nunchuk.

-The colored ball: The colorful sphere at the pointing end of the Move is the thing that the PlayStation Eye uses to detect the presence of the Move. The color changes. In the demo I played with SOCOM 4, the sphere was orange. Why? Because the software detected that there was no orange in the background. If we had been in a different room, the color would be different. The Wii's signature hue may be white, but this varying color at the end of the Move will likely prove to be the Move's visual trademark.

Those are the differences, all less obvious than the similarities. The PS3 Move is being shown to support shooters and table tennis, fistfighting and co-op platforming. These may be familiar templates to Wii games who have sampled Metroid, Wii Sports, and Super Mario Galaxy. But at the nitty-gritty level, some of the PS3 Move's difference offer some nice feature improvements — maybe a drawback or two — and something that isn't quite the Wii-too it appears to be at first glance.

And, hey, the Sony person showing me SOCOM didn't even make me wear the controller's wrist strap. A Nintendo person would never let me get away with that.

The Move is out this fall, price and launch games to be announced.

[thop]

The Wii Nunchuk has a sensor that detects motion, more crudely than does the Remote. The PS3's version of the Nunchuk, does not have a motion sensor, according to a developer I was speaking to. There's a chance that is not final, but that is the case with the controllers at Sony's showcase event today. But that's why two-handed boxing-style games were shown with two Moves. On the Wii, those kinds of games are handled, with supposedly less precision, with a Remote and Nunchuk.

Only a Sony fanboy can spin the lack of motion controls in the subcontroller as an advantage :D

[patsu]

from Kotaku

Bah... why can't they show me these in the presentation ? Not everyone has the time and patience to read.


Still waiting for my DS3 (father) + Move (son) co-op game....

[ShadowRunner]

62923

[V3]

subcontroller should have had a glowing orb on it as well... then the thing would have been perfect.

Can't you just use two Move controllers if you want that ?

[Butta]

Can't you just use two Move controllers if you want that ?

No analogue stick and therefore no character movement...sucks, would have been perfect to have one Move with an analogue and the other as shown

[Butta]

Better video of Socom

http://kotaku.com/5490573/get-a-move-on--with-socom-4

[obonicus]

The subcontroller is just a controller without any motion detection.

Surely it must have at least as much motion detection as the sixaxis, no?

[V3]

The Wii Nunchuk has a sensor that detects motion, more crudely than does the Remote. The PS3's version of the Nunchuk, does not have a motion sensor, according to a developer I was speaking to. There's a chance that is not final, but that is the case with the controllers at Sony's showcase event today. But that's why two-handed boxing-style games were shown with two Moves. On the Wii, those kinds of games are handled, with supposedly less precision, with a Remote and Nunchuk.

Only a Sony fanboy can spin the lack of motion controls in the subcontroller as an advantage :D

That would be a silly omission. What about other things like rumble and stuff is it in the Move or subcontroller ? (I can't believe they couldn't think of a better name.

Also does the Move have speakers ? That was a nice touch for Wiimote.

Is there PR photos that are more clear than conference shots ?

[thop]

Lots of PR shots here.

http://www.eurogamer.net/gallery.php?game_id=&article_id=1003302

[V3]

No analogue stick and therefore no character movement...sucks, would have been perfect to have one Move with an analogue and the other as shown

Yes, just knew that Move doesn't have analogue stick. And they said they're aiming this at core gamers ? Silly. That Bulb on top of move is just light nothing special. You probably can DIY it into the Subcontroller pretty easily.

[Butta]

More impressions from Kotaku:

Among the titles for the PS3's Move motion controller being shown off at the Game Developers Conference today is Sports Champions, a very familiar sounding casual sports title.

Sports Champions will include half a dozen casual sports that can be played with one or two of the microphone-like Move controllers in hand.

On display at the event were Table Tennis and Gladiator, but the other games include Frisbee Golf, Archery,

Gladiator had me holding a Move controller in each hand. My right hand's controller let me move my weapon about, in this case a giant mallet, my left hand's controller moved the shield.

A short training session explained that I had to turn my body, and pull my right hand back to better block with my left-handed shield. It also demonstrated that the controller can precisely detect the power of my swings and whether or not I was twisting my shield.

Unlike Wii Sports Resort's take on sword play, Gladiator felt a bit more controlled, requiring more tactics and finesse. Both games are still a far cry from the real experience of swinging a bladed weapon with any real one-to-one motion tracking, but I can see myself playing Gladiator more than Swordplay.

Gladiator allowed me to rack up power meter, once filled I could press a button to unleash a devastating two-hit combo. The first was just my normal swing, the second had me mimicking a motion flashing on the screen. I could also work an opponent to the edge of the ring and try to knock them out. When I was pushed to the edge I had to stick my arms out to the sides and waggle them to prevent falling, presenting a very enticing target for my enemy.

I could also swing both controller quickly up in the air and then down to trigger and jump attack. Putting my hands on my hips triggered a taunt.

The person demoing the game for me told me there would be a wider selection of enemies, all portrayed in typical action-game fashion. He said there will also be a wide assortment of unlockable weapons, including some "strange" ones.

Table Tennis was the other game I had a chance to spend some time playing.

While volleying in the game was very precise, allowing me to execute heavy spins, lobs and slams, I was thrown a bit by the serving mechanism, which I could never quite master.

To play this game use use a single controller, and the camera watches your body location to see how sideways you're turned to the screen and, much more importantly, how close or far away you are from the table.

Serving required pressing a button to toss the ball up and then swinging the controller to hit the ball. Despite having no issues in volleys, every time I tried to serve I ended up mistiming the serve which caused the ball to magically freeze in mid air until I hit it.

Once the ball was in action, though, it was an amazing experience, perfectly detecting how I held the paddle to let me serve up slices and spins with perfect precision. It also did a great job of knowing where I was standing in relation to the table, so when I stepped back to lob a shot it reacted perfectly and when I crowded the table to slam the ball that worked too.

Maybe the serve issues I was having were all me, but I'd love to see it tweaked. If that gets worked out, this could be a fantastic game.

[Butta]

Yes, just knew that Move doesn't have analogue stick. And they said they're aiming this at core gamers ? Silly. That Bulb on top of move is just light nothing special. You probably can DIY it into the Subcontroller pretty easily.

Come to think about maybe it's not much of an omission... when dual wielding, if you simple use some buttons for back, forth and side side movement... could work.

[V3]

Come to think about maybe it's not much of an omission... when dual wielding, if you simple use some buttons for back, forth and side side movement... could work.

But the buttons arrangement doesn't look intuitive for your typical wasd control. Well in that table tennis games the Playstation Eye supposedly detects your movement. Anyway I am not understanding the button layout on Move, the arrangement just look odd to me.

Also I want to know if there is speaker on move, anyone know ? Surely they can put PSP style speaker in there.

[Butta]

But the buttons arrangement doesn't look intuitive for your typical wasd control. Well in that table tennis games the Playstation Eye supposedly detects your movement. Anyway I am not understanding the button layout on Move, the arrangement just look odd to me.

Also I want to know if there is speaker on move, anyone know ? Surely they can put PSP style speaker in there.

What about this for a WASD replacement when dual-wielding... on the left Move use trigger underneath for forward movement and big face button for reverse. On the right Move use the X for left strafe and O for right strafe.

[thop]

As it turns out the subcontroller is not included in the $100 bundle. Wow.

[obonicus]

Source?

Edit: I wish I knew why GAF was melting down so badly. Can't imagine how it'll be tomorrow, NPD day.

[V3]

As it turns out the subcontroller is not included in the $100 bundle. Wow.

That's probably why they want you to use the sixaxis or DS3 with Move. Too expensive. It'll be hard for Sony to bundle PS3 with Move for $300. And MS will most likely do 360+Natal for that much.

[Rangers]

Good old Sony . They've got lots of sales momentum, hot titles, and their fanboys rolling the last few months. Then they crash back to earth with a presentation :lol:

Seriously the last few Sony presentations (or at least several of them) have just been awful.

Here's some Engadget thoughts I happened across. He mentions the dreaded L word...

Here are some of our initial thoughts:

* The controllers are light. Much more akin to the DualShock3 than the Wiimote in heft, and we're guessing that's due to Sony's continued love of rechargeable batteries.
* The main controller does have some subtle vibration (not DualShock or Wiimote level, but present), but we're not sure yet about the subcontroller.
* We hate to say this about "pre-alpha" software, but we're feeling lag. An on-rails shooter we tried out, dubbed The Shoot, was discernibly inferior to shooting experiences we've had on the Wii, both in precision and refresh rate of the aiming cursor.
* The gladiator game is about as fun as it looks, we'll have video after the break momentarily. Unfortunately, while it's less of a defined experience than something like the sword game on Wii Sports Resort, you're still working through a library of sensed, pre-defined actions instead of a true 1:1 fighting game with simulated physics. Not that it isn't possible with PlayStation Move, just that it's not this.
* The lightness of the controllers means we might be feeling less of that Wiimote fatigue, always a good thing! There's an aspect of the controller that feels a little cheap, but at the same time we wouldn't call it fragile.
* As far as we can tell, the control scheme for Socom 4 is quite similar to dual-controller shooter setups on the Wii, with the camera moving based on your aiming cursor hitting the edge. It's hard to see this as the preferred hardcore setup, but we're told it's configurable, so we'll try and see what else is on offer.
* The system seemed to have a bit of trouble understanding the configuration of our body in a swordfighting stance: even though we selected "left handed," it was putting our sword arm forward instead of our shield. Right-handers didn't seem to have similar problems, and we're sure this will be ironed out in time, but it certainly shows that the controllers aren't magical in their space-detection prowess.
* As would be expected, you're supposed to stand relatively center on the TV, and at a certain optimal distance. The system is forgiving, but there's a sweet spot that users will undoubtedly have to learn.


Well, the sad thing is, it's now clear we're going to see a lot of the same crap at MS's E3 Natal blowout...probably more variations on the same Wii-alike titles, etc etc. But there may be one or two cool gems in there (Milo).

[V3]

What about this for a WASD replacement when dual-wielding... on the left Move use trigger underneath for forward movement and big face button for reverse. On the right Move use the X for left strafe and O for right strafe.

You lose the trigger button that way though and it's difficult to map the subcontroller buttons to the second Move and vice versa. They should forget the subcontroller and redesign the Move to combine the function on the subcontroller. That way Move is standardised and two Move become expansion of the DS3 controller.

That way Sony can just swap DS3 with two Move with every PS3 and it can play DS3/Sixaxis games with no problem. If not they need to bundle DS3 with Move in every PS3 and that will be difficult to compete with MS and Nintendo.

[LightHeaven]

My god, this presentation and the games themselves were so bad that i completely lost hope in Ps Move being anything else but a failure XD

I know that's still working in progress, but the demos felt so uninspired, so not fun, and from the videos, even the control itself didn't look so hot either that i almost feel embarrassed for sony XD

WTH happened? On the demos they had this amazing precision, while now in the gameplay videos it just doesn't seem to be all there. Specially the pointing. That looked just bad.

[patsu]

Edit: I wish I knew why GAF was melting down so badly.

It's difficult to "build a better mouse trap". People will always compare with the original version. Although Sony's base technologies may be more versatile, the developers need time to polish their games. It looks like they are still grappling with the implementation of the basic mechanics. I do agree that the games do not look refreshing nor exceptionally fun (like WiiSports). Even the addition of PS Move to EyePet didn't really do anything new. Finally, the alleged lag in The Shooter (pre-Alpha) is also a mismanagement. We all know software and user experience are critical, and yet Sony can't seem to be bothered with controlling their exposure. :) They should know by now that the tag "pre-Alpha" won't stop people from criticizing.

In the presentation, it looked like the Sony execs did not know what they were shooting for. They wanted to use Move to enhance core gameplay, but none of today's demoes illustrated that clearly. All we saw were the same old stuff either in EyeToy, the last E3 or Wii.

I'd rather they used the session for educational purposes. e.g., Pick a mechanics (sword fighting, boxing), and show how they decide and implement them. In the Engadget impression, they seem to expect the sword-n-shield game to just follow/track the players' swinging (and physics) to make fighting fun. I don't think that's right. What Sony or the dev may need to highlight is that they want to put in some sort of special moves to introduce skills, and power moves. The standard 1-to-1 movement tracking is rather basic and will be supported inherently, but may not be encouraged in a hardcore game (It's like button mashing !). They may also want to use the buttons to indicate the "strength" of a stroke. As a result, the pre-alpha game is focused on teasing out the desired behaviour. The session may even benefit from an in-depth and interactive discussion and tool demo, while we the consumers learn by watching. It would help us understand the depth better. And they get to introduce a new game to us. If they want, they can show us funny focus test videos too.

In any case, what's done is done. I am kinda glad they failed here rather than in E3. Hopefully they pay more attention to their planning and execution. Is Kaz Hirai behind this ?

IMHO, I also think the position of chasing after Wii upgrader is ok (so-so) but not presented well. There are more than one ways to do it. IMHO, it's not a simple matter of statistics (Statistics is about the past and forecast, may not be real). They could have elaborated slightly more on their philosophy (What is the fundamental differences between Move and others ?).


My god, this presentation and the games themselves were so bad that i completely lost hope in Ps Move being anything else but a failure XD

I know that's still working in progress, but the demos felt so uninspired, so not fun, and from the videos, even the control itself didn't look so hot either that i almost feel embarrassed for sony XD

WTH happened? On the demos they had this amazing precision, while now in the gameplay videos it just doesn't seem to be all there. Specially the pointing. That looked just bad.

Which video shows the bad pointing ? The Socom demo plays fine, but they didn't tell us the advantage of using PS Move.

[Rotmm]

I wonder why the last-minute name change from Arc to Move? It's clear, as the snazzy looking logo on the controller looks like an A, that the main controller was going to be called Arc. Was the 2nd controller originally going to be called "Move" and not "Playstation Move Sub-Controller"? It makes sense, given that the primary function of the 2nd controller is to manage movement.

So why not stick with Arc for the main glowstick?

[zed]

I wonder why the last-minute name change from Arc to Move? It's clear, as the snazzy looking logo on the controller looks like an A, that the main controller was going to be called Arc.
thats an extremely long bow :)
actually it looks more like an 'n' perhaps they were gonna call it 'nob' which IMO would of been a great name

move is a better name than arc, though I cant understand why it wasnt called 'wand'
possible reasons
A/ someone else already 'owns' the name
B/ harry potter etc prolly wont go down certain segments of US society

holding this in one hand is OK, but having the standard controller in the other is just plain dumb (I cant see it working well)

[Crossbar]

Coming from a non-english speaking country I completely understand why they choose Move instead of Arc or Wand. Move is a very simple word that even people with very little knowledge of the English langauge can easily relate to a and pronounce decently. Arc and Wand not so much.

Of course they could have gone with a meaningless word like Wii but for some reason they didn´t and in my book that´s OK, Move is consistent with the names of the other products in the PS family like Eye, EyeToy, DualShock etc.

[Rangers]

I wonder why the last-minute name change from Arc to Move? It's clear, as the snazzy looking logo on the controller looks like an A, that the main controller was going to be called Arc. Was the 2nd controller originally going to be called "Move" and not "Playstation Move Sub-Controller"? It makes sense, given that the primary function of the 2nd controller is to manage movement.

So why not stick with Arc for the main glowstick?


I have no idea if it's true, but I believe there were rumors floating around that "Arc" had possible trademark issues (specifically with MS in fact) so they just renamed it to avoid the whole problem.

[Lucid_Dreamer]

I guess presentations are in the eye of the beholder. I thought the presentation was decent for GDC. GDC is suppose to be mainly for developers, right? It's not an E3 type of event. They mentioned 20 first party games that will come out this year. They, also, mentioned 36 companies that will be supporting the controller. How many games were shown at this conference? It wasn't near 20.

We know that there will be casual AND hardcore games that will be supported. Plus, we know there is no hefty lag with this controller from live and recorded tech demos. We even got to see pictures of the product in detail. It has what was rumored (an analog input via another wireless device). We even got a ballpark price of under $100 (PS Eye + Move + Game). PS Eye + Move will probably be around $60 to $70 (the game discs are usually $40 alone for the EyePet level of game). This, too, was in the expected range of most. But, somehow, the presentation was bad?

Most people said the controller scheme needs an analog control stick and it would be great. A lot of these same people (on GAF especially) keep adding new things to harp about. I get the feeling that these particular people could never be satisfied with Sony's presentation no matter what was shown. It seems like FFXIII Metacritic platform specific scores (unfair) once again.

[Rangers]

This press conference was livestreamed, which even X10 wasn't. That means to a certain extent if not mostly, it was made for the public. Especially given the videos and demos shown, not for developers.

I kind of see it as Sony's response to X10 and Nintendo's Feb 24th event.

X10 was said to be Microsoft's hardcore show so E3 could focus more on Natal, though. This was kind of the reverse.

[Silent_Buddha]

http://gizmodo.com/5489946/ikat-augmented-reality-app-works-without-real+world-prompt

That's pretty cool reminds me of the Anime Dennou Coil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennou_Coil ).

Regards,
SB

[chris1515]

No analogue stick and therefore no character movement...sucks, would have been perfect to have one Move with an analogue and the other as shown

Yes a second stick is needeed on the Psmove for the camera on a FPS. For the moment Playstation look like wii HD.

It will be a failure.

[obonicus]

Honestly, only the faithful will shift to playing FPS on this. The rest of us at best will try it out and then go to a scheme that doesn't involve moving our arms around as much. And as I said earlier, this will be Sony's strategy. Grabbing Wii ports and having developers implement wand controls as a gimmick in 3rd party games.

It's like E3 2009 all over again. None of us cared for motion controls before, why suddenly this pretense that it's the true path to amazing gameplay?

[Silent_Buddha]

So what I got out of this so far is that you'll need...

PS3 eye + Move bundle.
Move subcontroller and/or another Move depending on game.

So to be able to do single player in all games you'll need to buy PS3 Eye + 2x Move + Move subcontroller. Which will be close to 150+ USD I'm guessing. PS3 Eye + Move bundle = 100. Addional Move + Move subcontroller = 50-100 USD.

And then you'd have to do that cost all over again for each additonal player. 2 player = Eye + 4x move + 2x subcontroller. 4 player = Eye + 8x move + 4x subcontroller. :shock:

Wow... That's some expensive multiplayer casual gameplay in the living room. They REALLY should have put a bulb on the subcontroller also if they were planning on releasing games that require 2x Move.

I'm thinking cost may end up moving this out of consideration for casual players.

Regards,
SB

[Crossbar]

Honestly, only the faithful will shift to playing FPS on this. The rest of us at best will try it out and then go to a scheme that doesn't involve moving our arms around as much. And as I said earlier, this will be Sony's strategy. Grabbing Wii ports and having developers implement wand controls as a gimmick in 3rd party games.

It's like E3 2009 all over again. None of us cared for motion controls before, why suddenly this pretense that it's the true path to amazing gameplay?

You should watch the video of the guy playing SOCOM, he doesn´t move his arms at all, just subtle movements of the hand. Not even when throwing grenades.

I am really curious about the FPS control scheme, I never got into FPS on consoles because I think mouse control is far superior. If the control scheme of Zipper´s SOCOM4 has any resemblance of mouse control I am all for it. But I will not pass any judgment until I have tried it myself.

[Crossbar]

So what I got out of this so far is that you'll need...

PS3 eye + Move bundle.
Move subcontroller and/or another Move depending on game.

So to be able to do single player in all games you'll need to buy PS3 Eye + 2x Move + Move subcontroller. Which will be close to 150+ USD I'm guessing. PS3 Eye + Move bundle = 100. Addional Move + Move subcontroller = 50-100 USD.

And then you'd have to do that cost all over again for each additonal player. 2 player = Eye + 4x move + 2x subcontroller. 4 player = Eye + 8x move + 4x subcontroller. :shock:

Wow... That's some expensive multiplayer casual gameplay in the living room. They REALLY should have put a bulb on the subcontroller also if they were planning on releasing games that require 2x Move.

I'm thinking cost may end up moving this out of consideration for casual players.

Regards,
SB

Wow..... That is some amazing jumping to conclusions based on the information that one bundle will cost less than $100.

[obonicus]

You should watch the video of the guy playing SOCOM, he doesn´t move his arms at all, just subtle movements of the hand. Not even when throwing grenades.


My point is still that people who are used to playing on controls won't suddenly find this amazing. Unless something remarkable happens, it'll be a gimmick.

[Rolf N]

You should watch the video of the guy playing SOCOM, he doesn´t move his arms at all, just subtle movements of the hand. Not even when throwing grenades.

I am really curious about the FPS control scheme, I never got into FPS on consoles because I think mouse control is far superior. If the control scheme of Zipper´s SOCOM4 has any resemblance of mouse control I am all for it. But I will not pass any judgment until I have tried it myself.You can have a preview of this on the Wii. The pointer allows for great fps control schemes, most notably Metroid Prime 3 and the Call Of Duty games. The Sony version has more button inputs and higher pointing accuracy/stability as far as what was shown, so it should be another step up.

[Crossbar]

My point is still that people who are used to playing on controls won't suddenly find this amazing. Unless something remarkable happens, it'll be a gimmick.

Of course there will always be people who find it to be a gimmick, but the buyers of the SplitFish and Fraggenstein PS3 controllers obviously prefer to control the FPS-panning with the wrist instead of the tumb and that audience may very well find the PS Move control to be a worthwhile alternative. I will sure give it a try.

@RolfN I will give the Wii FPS control scheme a go if I get the opportunity.

[LightHeaven]

Which video shows the bad pointing ? The Socom demo plays fine, but they didn't tell us the advantage of using PS Move.

This: http://www.gametrailers.com/video/gdc-10-sony/62923

It could be that the guy playing is just plain bad, but you can cleary see he is having trouble at aiming to the enemies even with that very noticeable aim assist. He never gets straight to the target, always moves the crosshair around until it snaps.

The on stage demo on Move Party was also embarrassing given that looked more of a tech demo to show the precision of the controller. The woman struggled to point at the play button to start the demo, and couldn't draw the shapes inside the lines, the guy even goes on to say something like: "You have to draw slower because you are not drawing inside the lines".

But it could be bad people playing, or even bad wip demos, but they did left an awful impression on me.

[Silent_Buddha]

Wow..... That is some amazing jumping to conclusions based on the information that one bundle will cost less than $100.

What jumping to conclusions?

The Bundle is a PS3 Eye + Motion controller + game.

They demo'd games that require Eye + 2x Motion controllers and games that use Eye + Motion controller + Motion subcontroller.

So the minimum you'd need to be able to play any variety of games will be 1x PS3 Eye, 2x Motion Controllers, and 1x Motion subcontroller. In otherwords unless you want to limit which games you can buy, you'll need all of those.

Now multiply that by however many people want to play games. And if they are targetting the casual market that quite likely means party games which can have up to 4 people.

Apparently you can use a standard PS3 controller for a subcontroller. However, how comfortable will it be to game for 30+ minutes using the standard PS3 controller one handed?

I'm not sure where I'm jumping to conclusions? Unless you believe they'll give away extra motion controllers and sub controllers for free?

Regards,
SB

[Rolf N]

What jumping to conclusions?

The Bundle is a PS3 Eye + Motion controller + game.

They demo'd games that require Eye + 2x Motion controllers and games that use Eye + Motion controller + Motion subcontroller.

So the minimum you'd need to be able to play any variety of games will be 1x PS3 Eye, 2x Motion Controllers, and 1x Motion subcontroller. In otherwords unless you want to limit which games you can buy, you'll need all of those.

Now multiply that by however many people want to play games. And if they are targetting the casual market that quite likely means party games which can have up to 4 people.

Apparently you can use a standard PS3 controller for a subcontroller. However, how comfortable will it be to game for 30+ minutes using the standard PS3 controller one handed?

I'm not sure where I'm jumping to conclusions? Unless you believe they'll give away extra motion controllers and sub controllers for free?

Regards,
SBThe obvious solution is to make local multiplayer games not require more than the base controller per person, just as it is already done on the Wii. Games developers aren't that stupid.

[Silent_Buddha]

The obvious solution is to make local multiplayer games not require more than the base controller per person, just as it is already done on the Wii. Games developers aren't that stupid.

None of the Wii party games use Nunchuck + Wii Remote? In that case, yeah for party games it may not be an issue.

So you'd only need the 4 peripherals for single player and co-op splitscreen.

Regards,
SB

[ShadowRunner]

None of the Wii party games use Nunchuck + Wii Remote? In that case, yeah for party games it may not be an issue.

So you'd only need the 4 peripherals for single player and co-op splitscreen.

Regards,
SB

There may be some exceptions but from my experince with Wii it does seem to be the case, Multiplayer party type games tend only to use the wand. Most people i know with a Wii only own one nunchuck and multiple wands. Nintendo also sell the nunchuck seperately instead of including one with every wand. Sony should have the base pack be PSEye + Move + subcontroller, this would bring it inline with the base Wii offering which is proven to work and avoid confusion.

Sony really should do better with regards to showing what move is capable of. I found the ping pong game to be very impressive with the paddle seeming to be in 3d space with 1:1 tracking, but they failed to point this out and could be just pre canned moves and more based on simple gestures with the paddles automatically following the path of the ball, i have no idea because they didnt expand upon it. Without pointing it out it seems just like any other Wii game when in fact, if it is using actual xyz positioning of the wand in relation to the camera for the paddles position within the game, it is beyond anything else and very impressive. The whole premise of the 3D positioning is going to be a hard sell because to the average consumer both a Wii version and a Move version will look exactly the same on the surface, its not until its actually being played that one having automatic positioning and one being fully controlled by the user will have significant impact.

[upnorthsox]

What jumping to conclusions?



One demo had a guy using 2 controllers and you extrapolate "2 player = Eye + 4x move + 2x subcontroller. 4 player = Eye + 8x move + 4x subcontroller." for the cost of the system? That's not a leap?

[Crossbar]

What jumping to conclusions?

<snip> some rewritten stuff <snip>

I'm not sure where I'm jumping to conclusions? Unless you believe they'll give away extra motion controllers and sub controllers for free?


Such as this.
"So to be able to do single player in all games you'll need to buy PS3 Eye + 2x Move + Move subcontroller. Which will be close to 150+ USD I'm guessing. PS3 Eye + Move bundle = 100. Addional Move + Move subcontroller = 50-100 USD.

And then you'd have to do that cost all over again for each additonal player. 2 player = Eye + 4x move + 2x subcontroller. 4 player = Eye + 8x move + 4x subcontroller."

That includes some amazing assumption about what a common gaming setup would look like and what it would cost.

The sub-controller seems pretty niche (not likely you need four of them!) and the way it´s presented by the SOCOM guy is using it (having it resting on his leg) seems like I will be fine using my DS3 for those titles.

I am not even sure it is possible to have 8 Move Wands, because of a limit in the PS3 bluetooth setup you cannot have more than 7 DS3s if I remember correctly, so yeah 8 Move wands doesn´t seem to be a likely gaming setup. If many people are involved the games will likely allow them to play with one controler.

And your assumptions of the price are based on that less than $100 means equal to $100.

So yeah, I think there were some amazing jumping to conclusions.

[ShadowRunner]

One demo had a guy using 2 controllers and you extrapolate "2 player = Eye + 4x move + 2x subcontroller. 4 player = Eye + 8x move + 4x subcontroller." for the cost of the system? That's not a leap?

Its pretty much the same as the Wii though isnt it?

If a wii game uses 2 wands per person it will be 4 for 2-player and 8 for 4-player.
If a Move game uses 2 wands per person it will be 4 for 2-player and 8 for 4-player.

[thop]

And your assumptions of the price are based on that less than $100 means equal to $100.
Not familiar with PR?

[chris1515]

What jumping to conclusions?

The Bundle is a PS3 Eye + Motion controller + game.

They demo'd games that require Eye + 2x Motion controllers and games that use Eye + Motion controller + Motion subcontroller.

So the minimum you'd need to be able to play any variety of games will be 1x PS3 Eye, 2x Motion Controllers, and 1x Motion subcontroller. In otherwords unless you want to limit which games you can buy, you'll need all of those.

Now multiply that by however many people want to play games. And if they are targetting the casual market that quite likely means party games which can have up to 4 people.

Apparently you can use a standard PS3 controller for a subcontroller. However, how comfortable will it be to game for 30+ minutes using the standard PS3 controller one handed?

I'm not sure where I'm jumping to conclusions? Unless you believe they'll give away extra motion controllers and sub controllers for free?

Regards,
SB

The subcontroller is not for casual gaming.

[chris1515]

And the PSmove is not for core gaming. The correct configuration for core gaming is a stick on each PS move and a different configuration of button.

For the moment it has the same problem than the wiimote. You need to adapt the gameplay to the Psmote because you cannot move the camera with a stick on a FPS or TPS. The problem is less important for TPS game.

I can't imagine playing Killzone 2 or resistance or Halo on the current Playstation move.

[Crossbar]

Not familiar with PR?

So how much will you give me if the bundle turns out to cost $89 or less?

I wouldn´t even rule out $79. Here in Europe they basically gave away the PSEye with EyePet. I myself would be surprised if the bundle cost twice the price of a normal game.

[liolio]

I see the fact that the ps move controler while exceeding the wiimote in accuracy is not matching it in functionalities a bit bothering.
The wiimote can do a lot of things on his own (basically a blend of what the ps move and the sixaxis do). One could say that the remark is invalid as you could only rely on the sixaxis but go and try to pimp the sixaxis as casual friendly and succeed at it I would be impressed.
Other than that the set up and the remark this valid (possibly even more) for Natal the set up is a bit cumbersome imho is not always easy to fit a extra device next to the tv especially when it's a camera and it needs to have a proper vision of the room.
Overall nintendo in this regard still have some neat advantages.

[Butta]

And the PSmove is not for core gaming. The correct configuration for core gaming is a stick on each PS move and a different configuration of button.

For the moment it has the same problem than the wiimote. You need to adapt the gameplay to the Psmote because you cannot move the camera with a stick on a FPS or TPS. The problem is less important for TPS game.

I can't imagine playing Killzone 2 or resistance or Halo on the current Playstation move.

Actually, just found out from Kotaku that the subcontroller actually has SixAxis style motion sensing. This means that big camera movements can be done with the subcontroller in a fps with the Move performing cursor movements. Sounds pretty good.

[_phil_]

4 player = Eye + 8x move + 4x subcontroller.

Even if your 4 players have 3 arms each , this isn't supported anyway.

[thop]

According to Sony PR it doesn't, and yesterday Kotaku mentioned a Sony representative told them it doesn't support motion detection. Sony should clarify this.

So how much will you give me if the bundle turns out to cost $89 or less?
PR never misses an opportunity to make a product look better.

[chris100]

I am interested in how Sony would set up the <100 (99.99?) bundle.

Some demo'ed games need two Move controller,(ike Boxing),but the standard set could be one Move +one subcontroller only.

Yes,the DS3/Sixaxis has all funtionallity from subcontroller,but DS3 is not meant to be taken by one hand.

[Crossbar]

PR never misses an opportunity to make a product look better.

I also know it is better to seed a low expectation and exceed it than the opposite, that is also PR you know.

Go figure.

Sony will price this carefully to match the price threshold for the volumes they want to sell.

If they can get a good uptake they will make lots of money on the extra controllers.

[Butta]

According to Sony PR it doesn't, and yesterday Kotaku mentioned a Sony representative told them it doesn't support motion detection. Sony should clarify this.


PR never misses an opportunity to make a product look better.

Here is the statement from Kotaku
HOW DOES IT WORK?

It uses a three-axis gyroscope, a three-axis accelerometer, coloured sphere and a terrestrial magnetic field sensor to pin-point the location of the Move, which allows it to easily track any kind of movement the player makes, whether it be slow or fast, small or sweeping.

The Subcontroller also features a full-fledged motion sensor, just like the Move wand itself, unlike the Wii Remote Nunchuk's gyroscope which is fairly primitive in comparison.

Interestingly, every game we played at GDC required the user to calibrate the Move before playing. It wasn't a big deal, but switching between games quickly it was a bit of a pain.