Old Discussion Thread for all 3 motion controllers [Archive] - Page 5

Prophecy2k

11-Jan-2010, 14:14

And if we make a mix of it, like for instance using Natal to navigate the Xbox NXE or Sony XMB for a minority report style solution and then picking up a controller to play a game, not sure if there is any "point" to that either.

Now this is something I've been thinking about for a while now while pondering MS' big push for "controller-less gaming" with Natal. Surely it's really going to take a big redesign of the current NXE UI to ensure smooth controller-less Natal operation AS WELL AS standard controller operation. Since I'm not an OS UI designer I cannot even fathom how you'd get something that works excellently for both.

Assuming that's the case, then the only other alternative would be to use Natal for Natal games and pick up a controller for controller-centric titles and/or NXE navigation... if that's the case then what's the point as you'd still have to pick up a controller sooner than later anyways.

Ultimately, I just can't see the appeal of any Natal application beyond it's dedicated software, because unless you're a person who will only play exclusive Natal software on your Xbox360 then you'd be juggling the controller and your hands backwards and forwards, standing up and sitting down so much that it'd be rediculous. NXE navigation with a controller is quick and easy enough, hence why i can't see any significant Natal application being any more than "novel for 5 mins, and then you get tired, turn-off Natal and pick up your controller".

Silent_Buddha

12-Jan-2010, 00:07

About the processing resources natal takes.
Is it when natal is used for full body tracking that it takes the whole 10~15% of the cpu.
What if we get something like headtracking using like 5 points instead of the 32 points will the resources it takes be lowered.

Right now it's difficult to speculate with any certainty. Especially when the 10-15% is a rumor of a spec that has no details.

The currently speculation is that 10-15% could refer to memory + CPU useage. With rumored 50 MB TSR for Natal, that might put actual CPU required at 5%.

Then again perhaps 10-15% really is just CPU. Or 10-15% is with additional bug tracking running on X360. Or any number of scenarios.

I think we'll have a better gauge of where Natal is in relation to a final product at E3. Much can change between now and launch.

Regards,
SB

Silent_Buddha

12-Jan-2010, 00:21

Now this is something I've been thinking about for a while now while pondering MS' big push for "controller-less gaming" with Natal. Surely it's really going to take a big redesign of the current NXE UI to ensure smooth controller-less Natal operation AS WELL AS standard controller operation. Since I'm not an OS UI designer I cannot even fathom how you'd get something that works excellently for both.

I'm not sure there's much you'd have to change. The UI is already somewhat geared to a controllerless control scheme. Panels are large, and natural side to side motions are used to move within categories while up and down motions are used to navigate between categories.

The biggest question mark would be what type of motions will they end up using for media playback. Motions? Motions + Voice? Motion OR Voice?

Assuming that's the case, then the only other alternative would be to use Natal for Natal games and pick up a controller for controller-centric titles and/or NXE navigation... if that's the case then what's the point as you'd still have to pick up a controller sooner than later anyways.

There's no reason against and many reasons for using Natal in addition to the standard X360 controller. And has been speculated quite often, certain games could benefit greatly from the use of Natal + X360 controller (pad or steering wheel or whatever). It's not a simple black and white Natal ONLY or X360 controller ONLY. The fact that Natal is hands free allows it to easily be used with any other controller imaginable.

Ultimately, I just can't see the appeal of any Natal application beyond it's dedicated software, because unless you're a person who will only play exclusive Natal software on your Xbox360 then you'd be juggling the controller and your hands backwards and forwards, standing up and sitting down so much that it'd be rediculous. NXE navigation with a controller is quick and easy enough, hence why i can't see any significant Natal application being any more than "novel for 5 mins, and then you get tired, turn-off Natal and pick up your controller".

Which is the epitome of no-imagination. Then again I shouldn't be surprised considering how much naysaying there was in regards to the Wii motion controls prior to its launch.

That said, what you just related is definitely true when applied to past X360 titles, as MS has recently stated they aren't focused on shoe-horning Natal support into past titles. Nothing would prevent a 3rd part dev from patching it in if they wished, but again I doubt that will happen, so it stands that Natal will probably be mostly useless with existing titles.

However, nothing prevents devs of standard genre games from patching in support for Natal in future titles if they saw some form of benefit. Whether it is gimmicky or not. I would argue that something as simple as head tracking in a FPS/Racing game would be incredibly useful and far from gimmicky. Especially in a Racing game where you can more naturally adjust your view as you are driving. Or for an FPS, being able to perhaps look over, under, or around objects rather than just having a static lean left/right button combo. Perhaps increased adoption of some form of voice control/recognition if a headset isn't required everytime you play a game.

And then you always have the potential for the gimmicky stuff. Generic hand signals in an FPS. Casting a spell using gestures. Turning the page of a book in an RPG or Adventure game. Throwing an object (bonus if Natal can interpret the velocity of arm movement and adjust speed of object in game accordingly). Etc. Gimmicky to the max, and nothing that couldn't be done with a controller. But gimmicks can be fun and draw in additional consumers who may be intrigued enough to purchase a title.

Regards,
SB

ShadowRunner

12-Jan-2010, 14:37

However, nothing prevents devs of standard genre games from patching in support for Natal in future titles if they saw some form of benefit. Whether it is gimmicky or not. I would argue that something as simple as head tracking in a FPS/Racing game would be incredibly useful and far from gimmicky. Especially in a Racing game where you can more naturally adjust your view as you are driving. Or for an FPS, being able to perhaps look over, under, or around objects rather than just having a static lean left/right button combo. Perhaps increased adoption of some form of voice control/recognition if a headset isn't required everytime you play a game.

And then you always have the potential for the gimmicky stuff. Generic hand signals in an FPS. Casting a spell using gestures. Turning the page of a book in an RPG or Adventure game. Throwing an object (bonus if Natal can interpret the velocity of arm movement and adjust speed of object in game accordingly). Etc. Gimmicky to the max, and nothing that couldn't be done with a controller. But gimmicks can be fun and draw in additional consumers who may be intrigued enough to purchase a title.

Regards,
SB

These are the sorts of interesting uses for Natal that could suffer if the removal of the internal processor is true. Before, as you say, there was no reason not to implement Natal features alongside more traditional games. Depending on the rescources that must be saccrificed to enable a Natal feature i see there possibly being much less support of these sorts of things from devs. It will be a shame for me personally if this is the case as i have more interest in the supplementation of traditional games than the more casual types i expect to see. Ofcourse to MS the Casual stuff is where the money is, and so for them these uses were a sensible sacrifice for lower cost, i will still continue to buy all these traditional games Natal or not.

Shifty Geezer

12-Jan-2010, 17:48

I suppose the choice is, allocate some processing power to support Natal for a peripheral, or throw everything at the normal game. In the example of Forza, would it be better to have 100% processing given over to making it look and play even more fabulous than F3, or have some proceassing power maybe limiting it to F3 performance but allowing for motion control? A lot of this comes down to how much processing impacts the rest of the game. Personally I hope devs go with Natal favouritism. Certainly MS can force it for Forza! How much effort would it be rendering to support a high-quality alongside a Natal mode, and offer users both options? My guess is 'too much'.

zed

12-Jan-2010, 19:07

the 10-15% CPU and 10% memory (which is a bigger hit than the cpu loss) are going to be non issues, simply because they will not use natal in the most games, like Ive been saying all along
A/ party games
B/ fitness games
neither of these should be that mem/cpu intensive

Will halo:reach use natal, if it doesnt then that will be extremely telling

Shifty Geezer

12-Jan-2010, 19:34

the 10-15% CPU and 10% memory (which is a bigger hit than the cpu loss) are going to be non issues, simply because they will not use natal in the most games, like Ive been saying all along.But the it is an issue, because it means Natal won't be used for anything wonderful. Unless your saying that it wouldn't be used for anything beyond fitness and party games even if there was zero system impact.

obonicus

12-Jan-2010, 19:47

Developers are going to run into the same problems they did with the Wii: they won't know how to use this new control scheme and so at best they'll try and ape whatever it is sells well on the platform (likewise, unless Sony hits it out of the park with the Sony Personal Thingummy on some project, don't expect much more than 'pointer support' from 3rd parties).

ShadowRunner

12-Jan-2010, 19:53

But the it is an issue, because it means Natal won't be used for anything wonderful. Unless your saying that it wouldn't be used for anything beyond fitness and party games even if there was zero system impact.

I dont think it would stop wonderful games at all 10-30% less performance wont mean there wont be great games. What is likely is less dev support for smaller additions to our more traditional games, which is what im more interested in personally. It wont make much difference at all for Natal only games.

Some would say PS3 has 10% or so less memory (in the past atleast) and 10% less GPU power but that hasnt stopped it from having great games. The only real negative i can see is it is a good reason for a dev not to consider using it for little things in our normal games.

patsu

13-Jan-2010, 00:04

About the processing resources natal takes.
Is it when natal is used for full body tracking that it takes the whole 10~15% of the cpu.
What if we get something like headtracking using like 5 points instead of the 32 points will the resources it takes be lowered.

Headtracking for Fps could be used by both natal and ps eye
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWkpdtFZoBE

Im more interested if ubisoft makes Ruse natal compatible because the basics are there if natal can track finger movement.

Yes, I believe it has the capability to zoom into specific areas. It may be quicker to scan a smaller area (after an initial full body scan).

Then again, if the game/title does not require point cloud (They just want to recognize a "pinch" gesture for media playback), there may be cheaper and more efficient way to do so. Since MS pre-announced Natal so early, by the end of this fall, I suspect we will see a healthy supply of alternative solutions.

patsu

13-Jan-2010, 01:32

More Wii Relax info:
http://www.siliconera.com/2010/01/12/wii-relax-spotted-in-north-america/

No, Nintendo of America hasn’t announced Wii Relax yet, but they are laying tracks for it. Nintendo registered not one, but three trademarks for Wii Relax in the USA. The filings cover everything from video games to trading card games.

scently

13-Jan-2010, 11:31

Capcom are reviving an old franchise with natal. Story at g4tv. I am sorry I don't know how to link an article.

Silent_Buddha

13-Jan-2010, 12:21

Capcom are reviving an old franchise with natal. Story at g4tv. I am sorry I don't know how to link an article.

Easiest way is just copy and paste the URL.

http://g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/701811/Capcom-Working-On-Hardcore-Project-Natal-Game-Based-On-Old-Franchise-.html

"What we're doing is creating it from the ground up for Natal, in this case. But it's..." he said, pausing. "How do I describe this...it's created from the ground up for Natal. We're not looking at Natal as 'okay, here's a little Natal gimmick that we've worked into some existing game.'"

So a hardcore game specificly for Natal of a past Capcom franchise? Also, won't be a launch title. They want to take their time to get it right.

Regards,
SB

rabidrabbit

13-Jan-2010, 12:51

My bet is Final Fight, not sidescrolling but first or third person of course.

zed

13-Jan-2010, 20:08

Unless your saying that it wouldn't be used for anything beyond fitness and party games even if there was zero system impact
exactly what Im saying, the reason is due to it not being 100% accurate.
With Party or fitness games this aint so important. But for a FPS or platformer or driving game etc (i.e. normal games) the player would be pissed off if they died when the motion detector fails to pick up the movement it made to shoot,jump,turn left. Have this happen a few times and they just wont play the game

patsu

15-Jan-2010, 03:50

SCEE filed for more trademarks: Razor, The Shoot, Wonderbook.

http://www.siliconera.com/2010/01/14/athe-shoot-and-wonderbook-are-these-names-for-ps3-motion-controller-games/

Maybe Razor, The Shoot, and Wonderbook are their motion controller projects. Sony Computer Entertainment Europe trademarked those names in Europe for use with computer video game programmes.

...

Wonderbook has an extra descriptor. It can also be used for “toys, games and playthings; hand-held electronic games; electronic educational teaching games.”

obonicus

15-Jan-2010, 04:24

And people were wondering if the monkeys with typewriters division would ever pay off.

patsu

15-Jan-2010, 04:32

The names sound like shallow, EyeToy-like mini-games though. Need more than one-off mini games, and typing monkeys to generate a new controller momentum.

Crossbar

15-Jan-2010, 11:19

The names sound like shallow, EyeToy-like mini-games though. Need more than one-off mini games, and typing monkeys to generate a new controller momentum.

Damn rigth you are. Anyone else that find the silence remarkable. If they really aim to launch in Japan in March, which was promised in the leaked SEGA document, they should start feeding us with hype information right now.

Microsoft recently made Natal top news on CNN, that´s the way to create hype. :grin:

corduroygt

15-Jan-2010, 15:47

What I really meant to say by "well known characters" is really actually not the characters, but the Nintendo way of thinking and being first to market. What Wii is to motion controls is what the iPhone is to smartphones. It was first to market with a touchscreen interface that works well without a stylus, now everyone is copying them but they're so far ahead and unlikely to be caught, but you never know. When people think touchscreen smartphone, they think iPhone, and when they think motion control gaming, they think Wii. I don't think Sony/MS will really be able to compete with that with their motion controls in terms of popularity. I hope I am wrong of course...

Silent_Buddha

16-Jan-2010, 01:50

SCEE filed for more trademarks: Razor, The Shoot, Wonderbook.

http://www.siliconera.com/2010/01/14/athe-shoot-and-wonderbook-are-these-names-for-ps3-motion-controller-games/

Wonderbook could also be a new Vaio based Tablet PC. That makes about as much sense as a PS3 wand game. Or heck even a spin on the Sony EReader.

Regards,
SB

patsu

16-Jan-2010, 01:53

... except that it says:

Wonderbook has an extra descriptor. It can also be used for “toys, games and playthings; hand-held electronic games; electronic educational teaching games.”

^_^

Silent_Buddha

16-Jan-2010, 03:01

... except that it says:

Wonderbook has an extra descriptor. It can also be used for “toys, games and playthings; hand-held electronic games; electronic educational teaching games.”

^_^

Could still point to a Tablet PC or Kid themed e-reader. :) And less likely to be a PS3 wand/eyetoy application.

Or one of those new fangled "book" like things with e-ink reader on one side and Tablet PC like screen on the other side. Think 2 devices like that have already been announced by some companies.

Regards,
SB

patsu

16-Jan-2010, 04:40

Could still point to a Tablet PC or Kid themed e-reader. :) And less likely to be a PS3 wand/eyetoy application.

Or one of those new fangled "book" like things with e-ink reader on one side and Tablet PC like screen on the other side. Think 2 devices like that have already been announced by some companies.

Could be a PSP game too ! All we know right now is that it is registered as a game or a plaything, likely a casual/educational title. Unlikely to be a Tablet or an eReader hardware. Sony would have mentioned them in the trademark listing since it's a hot field right now. The eReader and Tablet hardware should be a Network Products Division wide effort (initiated from the HQ in Japan), not SCEE.

Silent_Buddha

16-Jan-2010, 06:29

Could be a PSP game too ! All we know right now is that it is registered as a game or a plaything, likely a casual/educational title. Unlikely to be a Tablet or an eReader hardware. Sony would have mentioned them in the trademark listing since it's a hot field right now. The eReader and Tablet hardware should be a Network Products Division wide effort (initiated from the HQ in Japan), not SCEE.

I'm pretty sure the current Sony eReader is a SCEE product. And a Tablet based product would easily fit in with Vaio branded products which are also SCEE.

We'll have to wait and see. But I certainly see it as more of a kid oriented ereader/table combo like this Google device

http://www.anandtech.com/tradeshows/showdoc.aspx?i=3710&p=4

Or probably more like this device, which would fit a descriptor such as Wonderbook perfectly and allow for all the described uses...

http://www.dailytech.com/EnTourage+eDGe+eReader+Hits+Preorder+Stage/article17327.htm

Although it could also be just a simple PSP variant relaunched with a focus on kids.

Either way, it just sounds more like a hardware device rather than an Eyetoy application.

Regards,
SB

patsu

16-Jan-2010, 09:23

I'm pretty sure the current Sony eReader is a SCEE product. And a Tablet based product would easily fit in with Vaio branded products which are also SCEE.

Do you have a link on this ?

So far SCEE is famous for casual games like SingStar, Buzz!, and EyePet (among other things). They also did PlayTV for the PAL territories. Does Sony eBook Reader Daily Edition work with any European 3G carrier now ? I only hear of a collaboration with AT&T 3G.

Silent_Buddha

16-Jan-2010, 17:02

I'm not sure what other division the eReader would fit in. It's closely tied to computing in that it requires a computer to load books, although new version may not? Haven't looked at the new version. The Sony eReader store is a standard online shop. It's definitely not a consumer electronics device in the same way a Vaio isn't a consumer electronics device (TV, Stereo, etc.)

Regards,
SB

obonicus

16-Jan-2010, 22:43

It's also not a Sony Computer Entertainment product, though, that anyone knows of.

Silent_Buddha

17-Jan-2010, 11:43

In there a division of Sony which specifically focuses on network/internet devices and applications?

The Sony eReader is just an extension of Sony's online computing push as far as I'm aware. As the only things I've been able to find is that during the re-org that Stringer pushed is that it would be under the umbrella of PSN.

Also that Steve Haber is president of Sony's Digital Reading Business Division. It seems odd to have an entire division for one product.

Regards,
SB

Shifty Geezer

17-Jan-2010, 14:37

Sony couldn't work out where to put it either. :p

patsu

18-Jan-2010, 04:17

eBook is under Kaz's Network Product Division, but not under SCE. Probably a new unit since the tech is different from VAIO as well. Stringer hinted that "everyone" is working on tablet-based eBook. So the VAIO people probably has a MS Tablet computer too.

patsu

18-Jan-2010, 10:08

Motion sensing PS3 light gun:
http://www.maxconsole.net/?mode=news&newsid=38295

Definitely better than the light gun I tried 2 years ago.

q-BnXUvvcog

_nIet_lr_H8

Why don't they make it more like a real rifle/pistol (with optional attachments) ?

EDIT: Hm... might be tiring after extended use too -- unless I can rest or mount it on the coffee table.

patsu

19-Jan-2010, 09:21

The new controller is called What ?
http://www.vg247.com/2010/01/19/rumour-ps3-motion-controller-is-called-xox/#more-75196

VG247 has it on good authority that Sony has named its PS3 Motion Controller “Arc”.

Hmm...

thop

19-Jan-2010, 09:24

What's the reference here? Because you paint an arc with them in the air? Or Arc de Triomphe? :D

patsu

19-Jan-2010, 09:26

Beats me.

Filing under "unconfirmed rumors" for now.

If it's "Arc", why not "Swing" ? :-P

obonicus

19-Jan-2010, 09:51

Maybe it's an acronym, ARC.

patsu

19-Jan-2010, 09:54

Possible ! Sounds like a code name rather than a consumer product though (e.g., Advanced.Something.Controller)

EDIT:
Or "Augmented.Reality.Controller". Oi, vg247, you may need to dig deeper.

Rotmm

19-Jan-2010, 10:15

I think the Wii has shown that it doesn't really matter what a piece of hardware is called, as long as it's marketed correctly and is something simple enough to stick in the brain. Arc seems fine to me.

However, given that the release date is said to be March this year, Sony really need to start with that marketing push now (well, really needed to do it some months ago) to push it into the common consciousness.

Of course, like the original PS3 release date of "global release Spring 2006", the Arc/Gem/Whatever was probably never really planned within Sony for March 2010, but rather the date was announced as a 'spoiler' for Natal. I really wouldn't expect to see it until towards the end of the year, late Summer at the earliest, with the full launch at E3 in June.

patsu

19-Jan-2010, 11:10

I believe Nintendo went through rigorous focus tests before settling on "Wii". It was mentioned in an Nintendo interview before/during launch. The issue is it sounds like Wee, but based on their tests and the way Nintendo presents the name, it turns out not to be a problem.

Then they have WiiSports, WiiFit, Wii-blah

IMHO, ARC is a little awkward to pronounce (sounds techie !). ARCserve is a backup solution. May be it'll be like Nintendo DS or PSP (Just acronyms). But at the moment, it doesn't ring any bell, or generate any sparks in me yet. :)

thop

19-Jan-2010, 11:24

Argh!

Arwin

19-Jan-2010, 12:09

"Augmented.Reality.Controller"

Yeah, that sounds about right. But that may still be the internal way to refer to the type of controller though. Or maybe it is intended to refer to a family of products? E.g. ARC Wand, ARC Wheel, ARC Gun, etc.

obonicus

19-Jan-2010, 13:37

Let's not get too revisionist on the name of the Wii. It didn't magically become a better name, people just got used to it.

Shifty Geezer

19-Jan-2010, 18:22

I think that's Rotmm's point. Although the notion that it doesn't really matter what you call a product must give overpaid marketeers nightmares!

obonicus

19-Jan-2010, 18:42

I was mostly responding to patsu.

patsu

19-Jan-2010, 18:54

The naming of the controller, the first impression is part of the marketing, when people say "when marketed correctly". They are going up against a rather strong and well-known market leader.

I agree that the overall marketing will count the most. However the name ARC doesn't help advance their goal. If they just want a simple name to remember and say, there should be many options.

zed

19-Jan-2010, 19:29

I thought it was gonna be could 'wand' which IMO sounds better than 'arc', though ultimatly has been pointed out the name doesnt count for much ultimately

corduroygt

20-Jan-2010, 06:07

There are two things that stick to my mind that makes me question the 'Arc'

1. Can it track more than 2 wands at the same time? The wii and Natal can do 4, and so should Sony's system. These are "party" features so 4-people multiplayer is important.
2. Optional accessory. Unlike Natal which MS plans to include with every 360 (my guess is right at $199, just like to wii and making it a direct competitior). Sony better find a way to include this 'Arc' with the PS3. Maybe they can start including with the 250 GB version since it has a higher profit margin, but it needs to make its way to the $299 version before the holidays.

Other than that, I feel that the PS3 Arc is the most accurate out of all 3 laggy and inaccurate control methods :)

patsu

20-Jan-2010, 06:38

It's more than that:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/ps3-motion-controller-delayed-till-autumn

However, in a statement, Sony said it will now be released in the autumn in Japan, North America, Europe and other PAL territories.

...

According to Sony the controller will work with the PlayStation Eye 2 camera. It's said to "detect the natural and intuitive movement of the hand and reflect the precise movement within the game, delivering a whole new entertainment experience on PS3". The plan is for the new peripheral to become the de facto controller for PS3 "along with" the Dual Shock pad.

What is PS Eye 2 ? Gigabit connected ? :-P

So... the only question left are price point (US$299 ?) and 4 player support ?

thop

20-Jan-2010, 06:40

So this is basically Sony doing a Microsoft.

patsu

20-Jan-2010, 06:43

It's Sony and MS doing a Nintendo. Plus 3D gaming somewhere inside.

Is EyePet still coming in April or is it Fall 2010 now ?

liolio

20-Jan-2010, 07:23

So this is basically Sony doing a Microsoft.
Hum... no, Ms sticks to its schedule...

Arwin

20-Jan-2010, 09:23

Hum... no, Ms sticks to its schedule...

And accurately predicted Sony's schedule to boot. :D

Shame that we'll have to wait longer, but obviously the software support for it is going to be key. Hopefully they get it right - LBP's update looks awesome for instance, but they need to bring both a killer hardcore app and a hardcore Wii Sports Resort type game.

ErnstH

20-Jan-2010, 10:12

What is PS Eye 2 ? Gigabit connected ? :-P

The '2' refers to a footnote in the press conference. :)

Shifty Geezer

20-Jan-2010, 11:10

Oops. Sony have lost the early advantage (and can't timetable a release for anything!). It'll be a direct head-to-head now! Never before has the software been so important. But as mentioned, MS has the potential bundle advantage to to generate a rapid install base if they can price-drop to the next price-tier.

patsu

20-Jan-2010, 11:54

The '2' refers to a footnote in the press conference. :)

:lol: Damn Eurogamer !

Oops. Sony have lost the early advantage (and can't timetable a release for anything!). It'll be a direct head-to-head now! Never before has the software been so important. But as mentioned, MS has the potential bundle advantage to to generate a rapid install base if they can price-drop to the next price-tier.

Sony's problem is bigger than that. NPD alone needs to pit PSP against DS and iPhone; eBook Reader against Kindle, Nook, and may be the rumored Apple iSlate; VAIO against other laptops, plus PS3 against Wii and 360 this year. Kaz Hirai's division will be is already super busy ! Stringer needs to send in reinforcement soon. XD

The implication for bundling Arc into PS3 is: We will finally see seamless PSEye and wand usage in XMB and other built-in apps ?

So far I'm quite impressed by their 3D and Arc showcases. But they will need much more manpower to realize everything.

Rotmm

20-Jan-2010, 12:32

:The implication for bundling Arc into PS3 is: We will finally see seamless PSEye and wand usage in XMB and other built-in apps ?

And herein lies my problem..... no rear USB port.

Maybe it's just me, but there's no way I am going to have Eyetoy plugged in all the time, it's just too damn messy. With so many things, such as PlayTV, Eyetoy, Rock Band/Singstar/Guitar Hero dongles, etc requiring USB, surely Sony would have seen the sense in putting one on the rear of the machine (where a hub could also be hidden)

Cables sticking out the front of my sleek PS3 (well, dead sleek PS3) is just too messy for me to put up with.

ShadowRunner

20-Jan-2010, 12:58

Its a shame its not coming out anytime soon but hopefully this means they are treating it more seriously.

The initial date suggested it releasing with just a bunch of mini games and some tacked on controls for current games. Hopefully the delay will change that and we get some really compelling new games, its also more realistic timeframe for some wii ports like a ps3 port of Madworld or No More Heroes etc.

Prophecy2k

20-Jan-2010, 13:24

It gets mentioned here a lot but I have to ask...

When did MS state in an official PR that they will be bundling Natal with every 360?

As far as i know they've said no such thing and everyone seems to be just assuming that'll be the case.

I would like to be enlightend by anyone with a source/link, as at the moment i'm confused :???:

Shifty Geezer

20-Jan-2010, 13:25

GI.biz survey doesn't look encouraging for ARC! (Note GI.biz has gone registration only, so I won't link the article direct)

49.8 per cent the GamesIndustry.biz Network members taking part in an exclusive poll backed Microsoft's motion control device. In comparison, only 6.9 per cent of respondents voted for Sony's PlayStation 3 motion controller, while a further 4.5 per cent highlighted motion control technology in general as a significant step forward for the industry this year. There's no clarification on what the question was, so I don't know what 'backed' means, but the numbers do some pretty loud talking nonetheless.

Prophecy2k

20-Jan-2010, 13:56

GI.biz survey doesn't look encouraging for ARC! (Note GI.biz has gone registration only, so I won't link the article direct)

There's no clarification on what the question was, so I don't know what 'backed' means, but the numbers do some pretty loud talking nonetheless.

Since it says, "while a further 4.5 per cent highlighted motion control technology in general as a significant step forward for the industry this year." I could assume the question was related to the perception of either motion control device being a "step forward" for the industry or motion control of video games in general terms.

In that regard the results would be rather expected since many see the Sony motion controller as a modest evolution of what Nintendo has already done with the Wii, while what MS is doing with Natal seems a bit more out there and revolutionary.

Since we don't know what the question was, i'm not sure we can take anything from the results of the survey though. However, if anecdotal evidence from my friends, posters on internet forums like B3D/Gaf etc and mainstream media coverage is anything to go by, i'd say that you'd most likely be right in implying that there seems to be much more "buzz" & "anticipation" for Natal than there is for ARC.

Since Sony's delayed till Autumn though, both them and MS have most of the year to start really hyping their products. We'll just have to wait and see how things pan out.

obonicus

20-Jan-2010, 16:50

Maybe it'll mean including a wand in the box (haha).

obonicus

20-Jan-2010, 17:40

If it's Natal, Wand or <x>, there's like 40% of respondents we don't know about. If it's

Natal, yea or nay?
Wand, yea or nay?

then it doesn't look terribly positive for anyone (but vastly worse for Sony).

wco81

20-Jan-2010, 18:00

wouldn't mind if both Sony and MS fail with this motion-control things if such failure accelerates the transition to the next gen.

Silent_Buddha

20-Jan-2010, 18:00

And accurately predicted Sony's schedule to boot. :D

Shame that we'll have to wait longer, but obviously the software support for it is going to be key. Hopefully they get it right - LBP's update looks awesome for instance, but they need to bring both a killer hardcore app and a hardcore Wii Sports Resort type game.

Aye, I always thought a spring launch for the PS3 wand was a bit rushed, I'm glad they took stock of the situation and properly moved it ahead a bit to give their devs a chance to hopefully put out some compelling content.

This years E3 is shaping up to possibly be quite interesting.

Regards,
SB

Squilliam

20-Jan-2010, 18:01

Hmm the only issue I can think of thats a problem for Sony with the 'Arc' in comparison is that even though they can pick up Wii ports im very unsure of many ports which would do well to even be ported from third parties, taking a game from the Wii to the PS3.

Im not sure that having a wand like the Wii's is strictly beneficial over say a camera only interface because the industry as a whole has done a pretty poor job with the Wii's system thus far.

Shifty Geezer

20-Jan-2010, 18:59

Well, PS3's solution is more like wand++ in addition to camera--; not as capable as Natal, but more sophisticated than Wii. PS3's motion developers won't have Nintendo to compete with either, so a flop on Wii could do well on PS3. Whereas a port to Natal may not work so well (we still don't know how well the limb tracking is as to whether Natal can execute the input of Motion+, plus I don't think it can). PS3's actually in the strongest position to offer worthwhile games IMO, but I think Natal will have the wow-factor and win popular opinion. But anything can happen with the software. MS's 'casual' software like 'In The Movies' have been pretty dire, so it remains to be seen if they can create worthwhile content that'll sell Natal. Sony OTOH have a mixed record, with the success of EyeToy Play and the flops of lackluster sixaxis efforts, but at least they have some precedent to making attractive titles.

Dural

20-Jan-2010, 19:35

You're in the movies wasn't an MS game, it was just bundled with their camera. It will be interesting to see what Rare and BigPark (MS seems to have acquired them primarily for Natal and XBLA development) have in store for Natal.

Shifty Geezer

20-Jan-2010, 19:47

It was commissioned and published by them though, like Gears, no? Likewise Lips. MS uses 2nd party studios instead of 1st party like Sony, but it still needs to control the quality of its software. AFAIK everything 'casual' in MS's portfolio has been pretty dire, so they'll need to pull about a complete turnaround in that respect. That said, they may have some joy from 3rd parties who support them well, and may well create an independent killer app or three.

obonicus

20-Jan-2010, 20:42

It was published by Codemasters, but distributed by Microsoft.

scently

20-Jan-2010, 20:50

Spawnpoint are also making NATAL games. I think this will be the real test for Microsoft as a content creator/provider, they do seem committed to make it a success. I am also curious to see what Sony creates with the ARC, as I have been impressed by their first party products.

Shifty Geezer

20-Jan-2010, 21:01

It was published by Codemasters, but distributed by Microsoft.Okay, "In The Movies" isn't quite the MS flop, but they certainly didn't offer any compelling reasons for XB360 owners to go get the camera!

makattack

20-Jan-2010, 21:18

Okay, "In The Movies" isn't quite the MS flop, but they certainly didn't offer any compelling reasons for XB360 owners to go get the camera!

I only got the camera because when I picked up my 360 last year, it came packaged with an XBox Live Gold 1 year subscription card. I've only used it in Burnout Paradise, which takes a photo of your face during a crash. Silly really... A wee bit more useful are the titles which map your face as a texture on a playable character. A bit eerie though.

obonicus

20-Jan-2010, 22:43

Okay, "In The Movies" isn't quite the MS flop, but they certainly didn't offer any compelling reasons for XB360 owners to go get the camera!

From what I hear on the internet, Uno is a pretty good reason, if you like live sex teleconferencing.

Crossbar

21-Jan-2010, 00:22

And herein lies my problem..... no rear USB port.

Maybe it's just me, but there's no way I am going to have Eyetoy plugged in all the time, it's just too damn messy. With so many things, such as PlayTV, Eyetoy, Rock Band/Singstar/Guitar Hero dongles, etc requiring USB, surely Sony would have seen the sense in putting one on the rear of the machine (where a hub could also be hidden)

Cables sticking out the front of my sleek PS3 (well, dead sleek PS3) is just too messy for me to put up with.

If you want to have your USB hub behind your PS3 it´s not that hard to pull a cable to the back in a discrete fashion. If you have rockband, then you are screwed anyways so no need to bother.

On topic, wasn´t really hard to see the wand delay coming. No media of any kind just a few months before launch is not how these business work. I guess we will never know whether there were hardware or software that caused the delay. My guess both.

There may also have been marketing reasons that pushed it forward as well, I expect the wand to be aimed more towards the Wii buyers attracted by motion games. This spring there are some iconic titles coming like FFXIII, GOW3 and GT5 aimed at traditional gamers that will attract new PS3 buyers. May have been hard to have an efficient marketing effort covering all bases.

zRifle1z

21-Jan-2010, 01:04

IMHO, there is no delay. I don't think Sony realy intended to ship the controller this spring, and only used that date for PR during E3.

Crossbar

21-Jan-2010, 01:50

IMHO, there is no delay. I don't think Sony realy intended to ship the controller this spring, and only used that date for PR during E3.

You may be right, but the leaked SEGA document said Sony planned to release the motion controller in Japan in March. In case they didn´t intentionally misinform their business partner March may have been their best case scenario in August last year.

But plans can change due to many reasons just like MS removed the CPU from the Natal camera.

Rangers

21-Jan-2010, 02:34

IMHO, there is no delay. I don't think Sony realy intended to ship the controller this spring, and only used that date for PR during E3.

I certainly didn't expect it. It was obviously too early.

corduroygt

21-Jan-2010, 04:35

I'm speculating an internal motherboard revision of the slim, maybe an even cheaper blu-ray drive, maybe even 45nm RSX if they can manage it, to reduce costs, so they can include the motion controller with the $299 unit, and sell a "core" unit for $249 (or less) without motion control, and they couldn't hope to make those changes in time for Spring yet, but possibly for Fall. Maybe even the elusive rear USB port (I just use a 7 port hub and tuck the cable to the rear)

RobertR1

21-Jan-2010, 06:09

Looking forward to E3 and see what MS has to offer for Natal. E3 will be make or break for me as to if I pick it up in Fall.

patsu

21-Jan-2010, 09:23

Silent_Buddha

21-Jan-2010, 20:57

Looking forward to E3 and see what MS has to offer for Natal. E3 will be make or break for me as to if I pick it up in Fall.

Yeah, can't wait to see what both Sony and MS show at E3. But in my case, if Natal can hook up with Win7, I'm buying a unit regardless what is shown.

Regards,
SB

thop

21-Jan-2010, 21:01

But in my case, if Natal can hook up with Win7, I'm buying a unit regardless what is shown.
You might as well wait for Halo 3 or Fable 2 to be released for PC.

joker454

21-Jan-2010, 21:01

IMHO, there is no delay. I don't think Sony realy intended to ship the controller this spring, and only used that date for PR during E3.

There has definitely been a delay, multiple delays in fact. Sony's motion controller and accompanying software have been in the works for many years, they just haven't been able to get the pieces together to launch it.

patsu

22-Jan-2010, 05:58

Another cool concept: http://sifteo.com/ (Click on the TED demo video)

bkilian

22-Jan-2010, 22:28

Hum... no, Ms sticks to its schedule...Only for gaming... only for gaming...

MfA

23-Jan-2010, 01:52

Another cool concept: http://sifteo.com/ (Click on the TED demo video)
Certainly cool, but I could only see them selling at high margins for one holiday season (if it gets hyped, toys are a finnicky market). It's a bit too gimmicky.

You really need to be able to make them dirt cheap, make them frameless (so they can be combined into larger blocks with more resolution) and give them absolute position detection capabilities (RF triangulation) also they are just begging for touch (simple tap sensitivity would be enough).

patsu

23-Jan-2010, 02:07

Yes, but I am more intrigued by the story creation game play ! ^_^

The Sony Data Tiles (http://www.sonycsl.co.jp/person/rekimoto/datatile/) has a similar idea.

EDIT: I don't necessarily think each tile must be one computer. It can simply be a sensor. Also, there may be other ways to realize the story creation game.

corduroygt

24-Jan-2010, 06:06

You might as well wait for Halo 3 or Fable 2 to be released for PC.
How do you know that they'll even be released on PC? Halo and Fable didn't do too well on PC's before, the PC audience is just different than that. I played Halo on PC, and my reaction was what's the big deal compared to Battlefield 1942 (which had vehicles), RTCW and ET I was playing at the time. Halo's brilliance was making shooters accessible on consoles, it didn't speak to the PC gaming audience much.

Therefore I wouldn't hold my breath for it being released on PC, not to mention it'd really kill the biggest rationale besides money to go with a 360 instead of a PC.

Silent_Buddha

24-Jan-2010, 19:17

Therefore I wouldn't hold my breath for it being released on PC, not to mention it'd really kill the biggest rationale besides money to go with a 360 instead of a PC.

No the biggest rationale for a 360 instead of PC would be the games that use Natal. While Natal will be a compelling gimmick on its own, it's not going to move any hardware without a reason for people to want Natal.

The rational for Win7 is just to increase the developement pool of Natal as well as to get more penetration of Natal itself into households and get more people interested in motion controls. While a small niche market, I'm sure there are plenty of HTPC owners like myself that would be more than happy to spend 250-400 USD for a Natal unit for Win7 if the motion controls worked well. It's certainly has more interesting possibilities than spending the same amount of money for a remote (299 USD for my last remote).

Regards,
SB

corduroygt

24-Jan-2010, 19:39

No the biggest rationale for a 360 instead of PC would be the games that use Natal. While Natal will be a compelling gimmick on its own, it's not going to move any hardware without a reason for people to want Natal.

The rational for Win7 is just to increase the developement pool of Natal as well as to get more penetration of Natal itself into households and get more people interested in motion controls. While a small niche market, I'm sure there are plenty of HTPC owners like myself that would be more than happy to spend 250-400 USD for a Natal unit for Win7 if the motion controls worked well. It's certainly has more interesting possibilities than spending the same amount of money for a remote (299 USD for my last remote).

Regards,
SB

But they will have standalone Natal units that they'll sell at profit for existing 360 owners. They must, because not many people will get a second 360 just for Natal, and there's always ebay for people who get a 360 and not interested in motion gaming. Knowing MS, they'd have Natal drivers for Win 7 at l launch though as well, so you'd also be able to use it with your PC.

Cyan

24-Jan-2010, 21:28

Camille Guermonprez, CEO of Arkedo Studio, a french video gaming company, has published some pics of 2 finger-heroes, a game that was going to be released for Natal and has apparently been canceled due to different reasons.

http://tof.canardpc.com/view/7c89d30c-b244-4bff-b319-10a323e0084d.jpg
http://tof.canardpc.com/view/941be0d3-4a57-4f4e-a493-594f4fc50ec4.jpg
http://tof.canardpc.com/view/42870b0a-fe9e-4e5c-bff4-f5c186fa0856.jpg
http://tof.canardpc.com/view/eb199558-16ce-4046-bc51-b063bb440863.jpg
http://tof.canardpc.com/view/31a9d2ba-2081-4a92-b055-a00d1ffa3255.jpg

http://www.joystiq.com/2010/01/20/arkedos-canceled-natal-game-2-finger-heroes

Arkedo Studio, the French developer responsible for the DS's Big Bang Mini and Nervous Brickdown, as well as recent Xbox Live Indie Games like the stylish 03 Pixel, has been thinking about Project Natal. And sadly for us, it decided to think again before going through with its proposed game idea, 2-Finger Heroes.

CEO Camille Guermonprez posted mocked-up screenshots and design plans for the game on NeoGAF, revealing a brawler controlled by players' fingers acting as the protagonists' legs. Occasionally, the game would switch over to segments controlled by hand motions or crossed arms, and award powerups for hand gestures at certain segments (with a penalty for flipping the screen off!)

Why isn't Arkedo working on this game right now? Issues with recognition of minute finger movements -- and localization concerns. "Yup, what can be understood as the victory sign in France, could be a terrible insult in the UK, for instance," Guermonprez said. "And we are not even talking about Italian. Oh, the possibilities..."His post on Neogaf:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=19376188&postcount=200

Nesh

24-Jan-2010, 21:37

Camille Guermonprez, CEO of Arkedo Studio, a french video gaming company, has published some pics of 2 finger-heroes, a game that was going to be released for Natal and has apparently been canceled due to different reasons.

Mod : You don't need to quote the whole thing, pictures and all, for a one-line resopnse! ;)

Oh man I d love to play that :)

edit: Sorry about that ;)

Shifty Geezer

24-Jan-2010, 21:49

Oooo. At least one dev was trying something new. Presumably you'd need to move the Natal nearer to you, or sit nearer the TV, to get the tracking resolution for the fingers. I wonder too if it'd work as an interface. Feels awkward to me, and I imagine players moving their fingers to do stuff it can't readily do. That is, casuals don't want to learn new motions/'motion control'. In this case, I guess you finger-walk on the spot and lift your fingers to jump, but I can envisage most casuals trying to move their fingers to where they want to go. They'll need to learn not to. And if you do have that degree of natural direct control, you have an odd sort of game.

Still, nice to see out of the box thinking, and some of these whacked-out ideas are going to work.

patsu

24-Jan-2010, 22:40

:cool:

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1302064&postcount=500

If the gestures can be tracked accurately and quickly, I am actually thinking about controlling 2 players at the same time in FIFA using my left and right hands. Just do a running man gesture on both hands, and have them pass a virtual ball between the 2 hands. I think I can do banana kick or bicycle kick using the fingers too (simulate leg movement).

EDIT: Sh*t and the response is:
If this ever happens I will kill again. :evil:

Silent_Buddha

25-Jan-2010, 00:17

I don't know why, but seeing that game presentation made me think of people mimicing the YMCA dance/song in front of Natal. :D

Regards,
SB

thop

25-Jan-2010, 00:36

Not really a surprise.

http://supererogatory.tumblr.com/post/351617553/september-2009-present-electronic-arts

AzBat

25-Jan-2010, 05:01

The response from the Arkedo guys about the Natal game was in reference to me finding & posting a comment they made about doing a Natal project in an interview last fall. They just finished 03 Pixel! on XBLIG & said they got to do some great project for somebody that they had dreamed of working with. I took that to mean the Natal project. That's when they came in & said that wasn't the case since the Natal project never got accepted by MS long ago. That's why they went back to do the Arkedo Series on XBLIG. They should be getting back to their next in the series: 04 Slash! in a few days since the secret project is now done. As for 2-Finger Heroes, looks like it might live on as XBLIG game or part of a souped up collection of their Arkedo Series made for XBLA or PSN. Can't wait. Love their work.

Tommy McClain

patsu

25-Jan-2010, 11:22

http://play.tm/news/28698/sony-register-playstationarc-com/

However, it is starting to look very much as if the new device will be known as 'Arc', Sony have registered the web address 'PlayStationArc.com'.
The domain name was registered via the company's Tokyo headquarters, although the site itself is utterly blank right now.

rabidrabbit

25-Jan-2010, 13:24

Microsoft already has the Arc mouse and keyboard, though I think a mouse and a console controller are far enough that there would be any marketing overlap.

Shifty Geezer

25-Jan-2010, 15:01

Graham

25-Jan-2010, 22:01

I'm curious how Sony are going to handle social/party gaming with the PSMC (ie, 4 players) and how they will deal with two handed games. Especially when it comes to price.
It would be a shame if multiplayer is limited to single controllers. There is a USB port (http://pgeekplace.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/playstation_motion_controller.jpg) on it. I haven't seen any indication of Nunchuck like accessories though.

I wonder how the face buttons for the second controller map to the same player. 'Now press X'. etc.

Btw, I refuse to call them 'Arcs' - I think it sounds beyond ridiculous :mrgreen:

Shifty Geezer

25-Jan-2010, 22:15

Isn't the controller super-adaptable with plugin widgets? I expect nunchucks and ancilliaries are an (expensive!) option.

As for four Arcs (rubbish name :() being expensive, this is true of 4-player gaming in general regards buying controllers. Although Natal has a cost advantage there, I don't think the general populace is particularly put off by the requirements for peripheral expenditure. Indeed, some may point to Wii as proof that the public is just dying to spend money on extra bits of plastic! But there's also the fairly common case of shared cost across the players. You only need two people with the same console and the more reasonable two controllers to come together to supply four controllers for party play. That's how it's been in my gaming circles since PSone. For family four-player gaming, it does get pricier, but like I say, nothing we haven't had for years. It's not that PS3 + Wii are so much at a disadvantage, as 360 is at an advantage and MS could push the cost benefit with their marketing.

"Take four controllers into the living room? Not me. I just want to play, and go! Natal combines a shampoo and conditioner into the one controller, saving you time and money."

obonicus

25-Jan-2010, 22:35

Quite a few of the Wii's 'party' games work with a single controller, by passing it around, for what that's worth.

patsu

25-Jan-2010, 22:38

One presumes the trademark wouldn't have been granted if it infringed on an existing IP.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Yeah, right! "What's that? You're paying us lots of money to file this paperwork, which we won't get if we find its already taken? No, no! There are no previous trademarks at all! Thanks for your business."

Have to see how they render the phrase "Playstation Arc". Not just "Arc".
Did MS trademark Arc ? I see many other claims on Arc on a cursory trademark search but didn't go into the details.

Btw, I refuse to call them 'Arcs' - I think it sounds beyond ridiculous :mrgreen:

Same here ! :-) ... well, not ridiculous but strange/awkward.

It would be a shame if multiplayer is limited to single controllers. There is a USB port (http://pgeekplace.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/playstation_motion_controller.jpg)

I thought someone already tried it with 2 controllers (2 players) ? Don't think you're limited to only 1 controller per session:
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1383100&postcount=1048

Prophecy2k

26-Jan-2010, 11:42

Have to see how they render the phrase "Playstation Arc". Not just "Arc".
Did MS trademark Arc ? I see many other claims on Arc on a cursory trademark search but didn't go into the details.

Same here ! :-) ... well, not ridiculous but strange/awkward

They could always opt for the following:
"Playstation Arc" - Singular
"Playstation Arx" - Plural

:lol:

Arwin

26-Jan-2010, 12:04

We don't know yet if Arc refers to a specific controller or if it refers to family, like the ARC Wand, ARC Bat, ARC Lightsabre, ARC Baseball Bat, etc. In that case you never need a plural.

Anyway, we'll see. ;)

ShadowRunner

26-Jan-2010, 12:50

patsu

26-Jan-2010, 17:44

ARC Wand, ARC Bat, ARC Lightsabre, ARC Baseball Bat, etc. In that case you never need a plural.

Yes, it's this thought train that led me to the cat in Bloom County:
http://i46.tinypic.com/143atl.gif

:-)

Prophecy2k

27-Jan-2010, 14:37

"ARC" should sold as the camera together with the wand. This should be the standard package on display shelves. You should then be able to buy single wands seperatly for additional players, wich will also cover those that already have PSEye.

Im also wondering if Sony could be planning on scrapping the idea of using peoples existing PSEyes and making use of a new Dual camera (ICU (http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18115-sony-demos-game-controller-to-track-motion-and-emotion.html)) or IR based system. The amount of people with PSeyes is probably quite low anyway. This would then give them a system quite close to the capabilities of natal and also the Wii. It may not be cost efective for them to do this but if it is i dont think they should be held back by the current PSEye userbase.

Well since ARC is their initial motion control outing, and most of their R&D and such has been firmly based around making use of the exisiting PSEye tech with a "new" wand peripheral, I say why not save the few of us that actually bought the PSEye this gen a few coins buy allowing us to only have to buy the extra wand?

Afterall they could use the dual camera or IR based tech for "PS ARC2" and flog it with PS4 at launch ;-)

Funnily enough i kinda feel sorry for the poor saps that ran out to buy the MS vision camera only to hear a year later they're scrapping him and releasing his "bigger, better and more badass big brother!" :lol:

obonicus

27-Jan-2010, 14:39

There's plenty of fun to extract from the camera in Uno, late at night, or so I hear.

patsu

27-Jan-2010, 20:43

http://www.andriasang.com/e/blog/2010/01/28/sony_motion_controller_games/

Nikkei has a short report on Sony's upcoming motion controller device. The one piece of new information in the report is that Sony will release "around 10 or so" titles for the device within the year. Included among the titles will be sports and pet raising games.

Shifty Geezer

27-Jan-2010, 21:28

Within the first year of its life, or within this year that it launches (end of 2010)? If the former, it's good as dead IMO.

patsu

27-Jan-2010, 22:06

May need to look at the quality of the apps, and how they market the concept.

Shifty Geezer

27-Jan-2010, 22:14

Doesn't much matter IMO. There'll be squat momentum with one game a month, no devs will adopt it, and it'll become as useful as my PSEye. You need multiple top-quality titles at launch to attract different people with different tastes. A pet game at launch, a puzzle game 2 months later, tennis after that, and I won't be buying. If there were a half dozen launch titles, the chance of someone seeing something they want will be high, leading to rapid growth in the ARC market and interest from 3rd parties. Without external interest it'll be a pointless gimmick.

patsu

27-Jan-2010, 22:39

That's true ! Will have to see the release schedule of the 10 or so games then.

We should be hearing about any Arc bundle before end of the year. They may be forced to do that rather than being the odd one out.

thop

27-Jan-2010, 23:38

http://www.portfolio.com/views/blogs/the-tech-observer/2010/01/25/microsoft-game-system-natal-may-be-a-blockbuster-goldman-says/

Videogame enthusiasts are looking forward to the release of Microsoft's motion-sensitive videogame control system, code-named Project Natal, later this year. Maybe investors should be doing the same.

That's the underlying message in an analysis of Project Natal issued this morning by Sarah Friar and Derek Bingham of Goldman Sachs. The analysts make a series of assumptions—including an $85 retail price for the camera-based system—and estimate that Natal will boost Microsoft's revenue by $1.7 billion in its 2011 fiscal year (which begins in July 2010) and $2.3 billion in its 2012 fiscal year.

It's a bullish position, to say the least, and it will no doubt be greeted with some skepticism. For a bit of context, Microsoft's entire Online Services Business posted only $3 billion in revenue in the 2009 fiscal year, out of $58.4 billion in companywide revenue.

The Goldman Sachs analysts obviously believe consumer demand for the motion-sensitive Project Natal device will be big. In a note to clients, they say they expect Natal to reach a 56 percent "attach rate" less than two years after its launch, meaning that more than half of new and existing Xbox 360 owners will buy Natal for their consoles. By comparison, they say, Nintendo's Wii Fit achieved a 41 percent attach rate over a similar time period.

It is almost certainly guaranteed to fail now. Usually the opposite of what these so called analysts predict becomes true.

patsu

27-Jan-2010, 23:46

:lol: I (informally) surveyed my new year visitors on Natal and ran some simple PSEye experiments on their kids. One or two families have Wii, but most are non-gamers.

I think if Sony and MS spend smart marketing dollars, they should do just fine in this area. The interest is high, but it really depends on whether they can deliver something convincing and usable.

For Sony, it looks like they may pitch a different angle, but we shall see.

AzBat

28-Jan-2010, 01:00

There's plenty of fun to extract from the camera in Uno, late at night, or so I hear.

Yes, yes there is. Been a big UNO fan since I got the Vision camera in March 2007. Made quite a few friends there. Though lately I've leveled off playing greatly. I still get a yearning for it every once in awhile to meet friends. The camera definitely helps in that. But don't get one in hopes to find peep shows, you will be totally disappointed. It's not as prolific as you might think. You will have more luck on the web using your PC.

Tommy McClain

AzBat

28-Jan-2010, 01:58

My anecdotal evidence amongst friends & family is that they are mostly casual gamers who are more interested in the Wii than 360 or PS3. A few even own a Wii. These same people are more stoked about the Natal tech when I've talked or shown them the tech videos. Depending on the price I think a few will even buy one for Christmas. Though most will just wait to see if it becomes the most talked about fad/toy of the season. I think that if MS has 12 or so titles with launch, then they'll get a lot of attention this Christmas from their target audience & probably have a successful season.

Tommy McClain

Shifty Geezer

28-Jan-2010, 07:58

Saddest for Sony, I'm sure these same Wii fans stoked by Natal would have been stoked for EyeToy if Sony had really developed it (and marketing it outside of Europe).

Squilliam

28-Jan-2010, 08:35

Whats the saying again? The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about. I suspect the executives at Microsoft are grinning their heads off when they get told that there are a bunch of people talking about Natal, they probably don't care about the nature of that conversation, just that its happening.

They haven't spent a cent on marketing and now a large proportion of the gaming audience knows what Natal is. Mission accomplished?

Crossbar

28-Jan-2010, 08:53

Saddest for Sony, I'm sure these same Wii fans stoked by Natal would have been stoked for EyeToy if Sony had really developed it (and marketing it outside of Europe).

I honestly doubt it would have been a major hit. It would probably have sold decently with good marketing. But the hand waving interface for on screen choices was a bit tiresome and the lighting was very important, it would hardly sustained the sales of the Wii.

Natal will be much better as it doesn´t depend on the lighting, flipping through menu choices may still be tiresome if it involves moving hands and arms but MS is good at user interfaces so they will hopefully have a good solution for that.

Shifty Geezer

28-Jan-2010, 15:03

Crossbar

28-Jan-2010, 15:34

eyeToy sold 6 million in the EU, one the strength on pretty much one title, EyePlay. If they had offered more variety and experiences of the 'Natal' sort (somewhat guessing what Natal will provide and what is technically possible on EyeToy+PS2), and actualy marketed it, I don't see why Eyetoy couldn't have done 20+ million worldwide, and most importantly stolen Natal's thunder so it isn't seen as the latest, greatest thing of the new age of gaming (unless of course they really do achieve some amazing new things in software!).

Yeah, it probably would have removed some of the novelty surrounding Natal.

Anyway, though I am not that enthusiastic about EyeToy type of games I´ve got to give credit to the Sony London Studio for the introduction sequence with the old lady demonstrating how to set up the EyeToy camera, it was absolutely brilliant.

Silent_Buddha

28-Jan-2010, 18:43

I'm with Shifty that Sony missed out on a big opportunity by not pushing EyeToy more. Of course, there's also the possibility there was a complete lack of interest from 3rd parties and in the end Sony just decided to cut its risk exposure of having to be the only party developing titles for it (something that hasn't hurt Nintendo overly much). We'll never know.

I disagree with Crossbar however. Any success of EyeToy would have primed the market for Natal. So rather than having this nebulous controllerless crowd they are targetting (I suppose a bit of overlap with the Wii crowd also) would instead be a rather solid market segment already used to at least a limited form of controllerless control.

A segment that right about now would be ready to jump on the next evolution of it. Plus Sony's own efforts in the space would have made them better able to compete in that space. In other words with more experience putting out EyeToy software products, they would have been in a better position to transition from a 2D controllerless system to a 3D controllerless system. As well as having a better idea of what titles work and what titles don't.

It's a missed opportunity all around IMO.

Regards,
SB

Shifty Geezer

28-Jan-2010, 19:30

Plus Sony's own efforts in the space would have made them better able to compete in that space. In other words with more experience putting out EyeToy software products, they would have been in a better position to transition from a 2D controllerless system to a 3D controllerless system. They'd also have faith in it! Sony have been working on these novel controller systems for years, but never really backing them. It's taken Wii and probably Natal for them to stop entertaining their RnD department as a curiosity and actually look to it for significant revenue generating opportunities. They should have started that 8 years and be the major player in novel interfaces by now. I remember when 'EyeToy' in every PS3 was a possibility...

joker454

28-Jan-2010, 21:34

Of course, there's also the possibility there was a complete lack of interest from 3rd parties and in the end Sony just decided to cut its risk exposure of having to be the only party developing titles for it (something that hasn't hurt Nintendo overly much). We'll never know.

There was little 3rd party interest in Eyetoy on PS3 partly because of the PS3's high price point, it cast doubt that casuals would spend that kind of money. Add Sony's past legendary apathy to 3rd parties and the result is that no one bothered with it. The PS3 wand is having a similar problem due to price because in the eyes of 3rd parties a $199 Natal is a possibility, along with future $149/$99 Natals not being that far away. Contrast that with the PS3 where at this point it's anyone's guess when a $99 price point will be reached (if ever).

Arwin

28-Jan-2010, 21:38

They'd also have faith in it! Sony have been working on these novel controller systems for years, but never really backing them. It's taken Wii and probably Natal for them to stop entertaining their RnD department as a curiosity and actually look to it for significant revenue generating opportunities. They should have started that 8 years and be the major player in novel interfaces by now. I remember when 'EyeToy' in every PS3 was a possibility...

But this was partly because there were three Sony's. There was SCEJ, SCEA and SCEE. And the latter is the one being successful and taking risks with stuff like the EyeToy, and being very successful in Europe. But SCEJ and SCEA failed to pick up on this, as we all know.

Silent_Buddha

28-Jan-2010, 23:47

There was little 3rd party interest in Eyetoy on PS3 partly because of the PS3's high price point, it cast doubt that casuals would spend that kind of money. Add Sony's past legendary apathy to 3rd parties and the result is that no one bothered with it. The PS3 wand is having a similar problem due to price because in the eyes of 3rd parties a $199 Natal is a possibility, along with future $149/$99 Natals not being that far away. Contrast that with the PS3 where at this point it's anyone's guess when a $99 price point will be reached (if ever).

I'm assuming when you say Natal at those price points you mean Natal + X360 (arcade)?

And in regards to EyeToy (PS3 Eye?), no argument with regards to PS3...

But Shifty and I were speculating if they had been able to push it in the PS2 era where the console was cheaper and there was no competition all the area of "motion" or "novelty" controls. Had they done that they would be onto their second generation of software/hardware. And in a better position to counter MS's Natal. At the same time Natal would have a larger and more known market segment to target without having to guess at whether their market research will lead to a "new" market or not.

Regards,
SB

Crossbar

29-Jan-2010, 00:48

I disagree with Crossbar however. Any success of EyeToy would have primed the market for Natal.

Just curious, have you played any original Eyetoy games?

patsu

29-Jan-2010, 19:25

http://www.andriasang.com/e/blog/2010/01/29/nintendo_game_plan/

Among other interesting things (like Mistwalker's game), "The company plans on showing software for the Wii Vitality Sensor, a peripheral that first saw its debut at last year's E3. Super Mario Galaxy 2 and the new Zelda will also be shown at E3."

Silent_Buddha

29-Jan-2010, 19:36

Just curious, have you played any original Eyetoy games?

In Best Buy and other stores yes. It wasn't something I was particularly interested in spending money on at the time however. This was before I regularly watched nephews and nieces for relatives. And those are the kiddo's that I now buy most of my casual stuff for.

Also, another reason I'm so interested in hands free control schemes. Not having to worry about them breaking/hiding/trying to eat the controllers. :D

Regards,
SB

corduroygt

30-Jan-2010, 05:42

patsu

30-Jan-2010, 05:54

Shifty Geezer

30-Jan-2010, 09:25

patsu

30-Jan-2010, 09:30

My observation is that kids (well, at least those I saw) would tend to stick too close to the screen when they become too enthusiastic. I would think the Arc would be similar to Wiimote+ and Natal would be similar to PSEye in terms of use case. The actual performance may vary.

For kids who are so young that they attempt to eat the controller, I'd say just use the light ball to do a mini-game (e.g., Flashing light). They are usually attracted to red color. The issue is whether the controller is hardy enough to withstand abuse.

I think all these motion games are designed for kids/people who understand and follow instructions.

Shifty Geezer

30-Jan-2010, 09:36

Arc requires the camera to see the controller to guage distance. It's as dependent on the FOV as Natal. As is Wiimote, which, if it's using the IR sensor to determine distance, needs to be a minimum distance from the TV.

As for kids so young they eat the controller, why even write them computer games?! Aren't there othe activities they'd rather enjoy that will be generally more developmentally focussed? If you want computer games for < toddlers, you'd really want a specialist controller with multi-material touch pads and widgets IMO.

patsu

30-Jan-2010, 09:42

Arc requires the camera to see the controller to guage distance. It's as dependent on the FOV as Natal. As is Wiimote, which, if it's using the IR sensor to determine distance, needs to be a minimum distance from the TV.

Ah, I was thinking the Arc has built-in gyro and accelerometer like a Wiimote+. It's the absolute positioning that will screw up if it's out of the camera's view from time to time (or suddenly). So we'll have to pull the kid back into view. Will have to see how well it tracks. May also be possible to do a toddler's game without absolute positioning ?

As for kids so young they eat the controller, why even write them computer games?! Aren't there othe activities they'd rather enjoy that will be generally more developmentally focussed? If you want computer games for < toddlers, you'd really want a specialist controller with multi-material touch pads and widgets IMO.

To keep them quiet sometimes. I gave my kid an old Windows laptop when he was two. :) They can start to learn at that time (YouTube, Internet Flash games, interactive CD titles) although they may still stick stuff into their mouths.

EDIT: Once they stay in the camera's view, you may be able to get the kids to do simple exercises and postures together for fun. e.g., Form a circle by holding hands, follow the leader's movement/gestures, pretend to be an animal -- like an Octopus with 2 kids, play a templated skit, etc.

Silent_Buddha

30-Jan-2010, 18:43

Young kids would be the ultimate testers (Those who eat controllers). The small ones can't relate to the distance and would crowd around the screen. So much so that the camera won't be able to see them properly (May be the belly button ^_^). They also like to block or intercept other people.

I think the initial release will be quite controlled.

Hehe, very true. I have my neices and nephews well trained though to stay back from the TV a few feet (for the health of their eyes). But they can still sometimes get carried away and go up to the TV to point and touch things they see (mostly the really young ones).

Regards,
SB

Silent_Buddha

30-Jan-2010, 18:46

patsu

30-Jan-2010, 18:51

The easy way out is to give them another controller (or a lookalike) to play. :)
You can also use the controller to teach them the concept of "taking turns" while the player stay undisturbed.

Having them jump around in front of the camera may confuse a camera game (e.g. Golf, Tennis, blah)... unless you drag them "out of the picture".

They have their pros and cons.

Silent_Buddha

30-Jan-2010, 18:57

The easy way out is to give them another controller (or a lookalike) to play. :)

OMG, I can't believe I hadn't throught of that. Now to see if I can get a modeler friend of mine to make me some. :)

Regards,
SB

patsu

30-Jan-2010, 19:00

Yap... or pony up (what is it ?) $50 for another Wiimote+ or Arc controller. Natal may eventually have one too.

Then instead of teaching them to take turn, you teach them how to share in a game. Oh my daddy-hood is showing

Shifty Geezer

30-Jan-2010, 19:25

Having them jump around in front of the camera may confuse a camera game (e.g. Golf, Tennis, blah)...Natal shouldn't be affected by this. if it is, it's lost 50% of its fab-factor!
Yap... or pony up (what is it ?) $50 for another Wiimote+ or Arc controller. Natal may eventually have one too.I'm sure you could buy a dead controller of eBay sold 'for parts' or somesuch are a cheapo price. Even a DS2, just take the cable out.

patsu

30-Jan-2010, 20:42

Natal shouldn't be affected by this. if it is, it's lost 50% of its fab-factor!

Probably depends on the game. Will see how it goes. It may take up more processing before the system rejects the additional "players". The camera won't be able to filter out the point clouds on its own.

I'm sure you could buy a dead controller of eBay sold 'for parts' or somesuch are a cheapo price. Even a DS2, just take the cable out.

Gah... if that, I'd rather get a real one, or fake something up from his toy chest for free. No need to pay for shipping and the additional hassle. In any case, I don't think it's a big deal as long as developers and marketers apply the technologies suitably.

I'm interested to experiment with some sort of pre K to 12 games using the same gadget though (Wii, Natal or Arc)

patsu

31-Jan-2010, 20:54

LightHeaven

31-Jan-2010, 21:32

GameTrailer has a good episode on Natal:
http://www.gametrailers.com/episode/bonusround/401

Patchter implied that a company (he guessed MS-funded) may have gotten finger tracking working, and also suggested a few cool Natal game ideas and UI. He saw a working Natal UI prototype. Segment starts at around 41:45 (way at the end).

Guess we will see an update on all 3 controllers soon.

Yeah, he says there's now finger tracking, and that as a whole the tech is more advanced than at E3, lessy lag and all...

Now, is he a trustyworthy person or he is as reliable as his predictions? :P

Crossbar

31-Jan-2010, 23:13

In Best Buy and other stores yes. It wasn't something I was particularly interested in spending money on at the time however. This was before I regularly watched nephews and nieces for relatives. And those are the kiddo's that I now buy most of my casual stuff for.

Well, the Eyetoy games didn´t have a long lasting appeal to kids from my experience. After the sensation of watching themself on the TV screen had worn off and they had played through all the different mini-games I can´t recall that they asked to play them again.

This looks like a typical EyeToy game:
http://i44.tinypic.com/2ylljrs.gif

Maybe the added precision of Natal will do wonders to the experience, I guess we will find out.

If anything has primed the market for Natal it is the Wii, in my opinion. I´ve seen kids playing Sport Resorts for hours and hours.

thop

01-Feb-2010, 03:19

Microsoft not fully committed, or, more likely, they need full horsepower for the game.

"Halo: Reach is NOT a Natal title and is being developed expressly with the traditional Xbox 360 controller in mind," Bungie said.

http://uk.xbox360.ign.com/articles/106/1065361p1.html

Rotmm

01-Feb-2010, 10:38

Microsoft not fully committed

Not fully committed to what?

ShadowRunner

01-Feb-2010, 12:47

Crossbar

01-Feb-2010, 13:23

Id say its more that they cant think of much natal will add to the game beyond gimicky things you will never want to use. It doesnt make sense to shoehorn natal support into games where it doesnt fit, and the extra processing needed to support it would be just another negative point towards the descision that its not worthwhile.

Pretty much, and the chance of adding Natal support to say FPS games (like looking around corners) went from small to basically nill the moment they removed the CPU from Natal.

Prophecy2k

01-Feb-2010, 14:33

Microsoft is seriously positioning Natal as their first-attempt market assault on the casual "Wii" crowd. I think if anything, this confirmation by Bungie and the removal of the custom chip in Natal just proves to confirm that.

Anyone looking for head-tracking in their favourite existing franchises are pining for some real dissappointment.

Whether MS does make attempts at developing or financing more hardcore Natal-specific games is really anyone's guess though.... at the moment I'm certainly not convinced.

obonicus

01-Feb-2010, 14:37

Wasn't it clear from the start that Reach wouldn't use Natal? In retrospect, though, they probably shouldn't have had Kudo Tsunoda going 'sure, yep, we can do that with Natal', though.

patsu

01-Feb-2010, 19:32

Wow, you guys are not amazed by accurate finger tracking.

Shifty Geezer

01-Feb-2010, 19:40

It could be amazing, but I'll wait and see first! If it's just finger gestures for example, though a form of finger tracking it wouldn't really cut the mustard.

patsu

01-Feb-2010, 19:48

Patchter seems very impressed and enthusiastic. I guess we'll have to wait and see again.

ShadowRunner

01-Feb-2010, 21:00

He wasnt 100% sure it was natal tech he was seeing, though he did end up assuming so. Was being demoed by a company other than MS. Probably was natal but could be another product entirely or a company looking for investors/licensees. Do we know what company it was? It was at CES he saw it i believe.

EDIT: transcript of the comments pachter made.

Michael Pachter said: I saw a private company at CES who I'm not gonna to name becuase I don't wanna burn anybody but, I am convinced that they're making the camera for Natal. It was SO much better than what I saw with Natal and when I asked them, "are you, are you sor-, are they (lol) sorts to you guys?" they said, "we can't talk about our partnerships." I am convinced I've seen it and it's -

Geoff Keighley said: And it's progressed?

Michael Pachter said: oh my god

Geoff Keighley said: So even better than what we saw at E3 last year?

Michael Pachter said: OH my god

Geoff Keighley said: Really?

Michael Pachter said: So yes, all this little micro...move. Now again, I saw it with things like do a presentation and put your body into the presentation. So think about the weatherman standing in front of the green screen.
Turning any room into a green screen - that's kinda cool. And they were talking about using that for film editing so you could actually make movies and create your background on your PC and put live action, very cool

Geoff Keighley said: Really?

Michael Pachter said: But pretty well done i mean, seriously well done. Um, I did, I did (saw a putty cat?), saw another application on this thing which was the equivalent of the ducks, the rubber ducks falling in the bath tub except, when I was casting the ducks there was a shadow on my hand and they bounced reea, it was very very cool.
So I think, again I'm not the creative guy, but a ton of stuff you can do with this thing that none of us have even thought about. I don't know if it'll all be there at launch but I think it's kind of cool - I think people are gonna want it.

Shifty Geezer

01-Feb-2010, 21:12

Well what we know of Natal so far had us discussing how it couldn't track fingers as the margin of error is too great. So this'd have to be a considerable improvement in the tech, presumably on the software side, or a workaround like having the camera closer to the fingers, or some other tech entirely.

Silent_Buddha

01-Feb-2010, 21:18

Microsoft not fully committed, or, more likely, they need full horsepower for the game.

http://uk.xbox360.ign.com/articles/106/1065361p1.html

It's one of the speculations for what finally pushed Bungie over the edge to demanding out from under MS control. The fact that MS appears to have an internal directive that all internal studios must produce a Natal game or include Natal controls in their game.

And I don't think Bungie wanted to compromise anything in Reach with regards to the core userbase. So easy way out for them was to either have much of the company leave en masse, or for MS to release control.

Again, not the only reason they wanted more freedom. But speculation that it was the straw that broke the donkey's back.

Regards,
SB

Silent_Buddha

01-Feb-2010, 21:22

Wow, you guys are not amazed by accurate finger tracking.

Heh, waiting for E3 announcements myself before getting TOO excited about anything. It's probably too late for finger tracking to have much impact on any of the rumored 14 games for launch.

Regards,
SB

scently

02-Feb-2010, 00:53

Wow, you guys are not amazed by accurate finger tracking.
Pffft, when we can talk about the negatives, why talk about the positives, seems like a waste of time.:wink:

AzBat

03-Feb-2010, 04:08

Crossbar

03-Feb-2010, 06:53

Also be aware Garnett Lee also said that finger tracking was coming along nicely too. This was said right before Pachter got in the discussion.

Tommy McClain

This goes against the precision of Natal that Microsoft mentioned not long ago, maybe the camera will have an adjustable lense like Playstation Eye that can give a zoomed in picture that allow fingertracking or maybe it will only work if you are close to the camera.

patsu

03-Feb-2010, 07:08

Based on earlier info, the camera can zoom in to specific area. However, to do finger gesture tracking, they can use the same full body tracking, or another simpler camera-based algorithm. For example, facial recognition does not require full body tracking.

_phil_

03-Feb-2010, 08:18

http://www.primesense.com/category/product_technology

Prime sense has a 60 hz (higher rez ?) natal like product.I think MS has shares in Primes sense .

Silent_Buddha

03-Feb-2010, 08:47

This goes against the precision of Natal that Microsoft mentioned not long ago, maybe the camera will have an adjustable lense like Playstation Eye that can give a zoomed in picture that allow fingertracking or maybe it will only work if you are close to the camera.

MS already stated that finger precision was possible on Natal at 2009 E3, but that they weren't focusing on it.

Looks like something may have changed their minds possibly. Or one of the engineers had free time on their hands and went ahead and added it in.

Regards,
SB

Crossbar

03-Feb-2010, 09:29

MS already stated that finger precision was possible on Natal at 2009 E3, but that they weren't focusing on it.

They also stated that they would be including a CPU in Natal at E3, so we should not pay much attention to what was promised at that time.

However, his was mentioned by Kipman (http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20527426.800-microsofts-bodysensing-buttonbusting-controller.html)in January this year.
The system locates body parts to within a 4-centimetre cube

but it also says:
A player standing anywhere between 0.8 and 4 metres from Natal is illuminated with infrared light.

So the 4-centimetre cube may be the worst case scenario that would appear 4 meters from the camera.

If you stand closer and stretches your hand towards the camera, you will probably have much better precision, so finger tracking may very well be possible in that case. The system could also ask you to move closer until it detects the hand properly so kids may have to stand closer to the camera than an adult. You will probably have to go through a setup sequence similar to the EyeToy games anyway before starting the game, so it coould just be a part of it.

ShadowRunner

03-Feb-2010, 11:14

http://www.primesense.com/category/product_technology

Prime sense has a 60 hz (higher rez ?) natal like product.I think MS has shares in Primes sense .

They were at CES, this is likely what people were seeing at the show.

Interestingly there official site links to an article saying that they are in competition with Natal:

http://www.gamerlive.tv/article/ces-2010-video-prime-sense-offers-project-natal-competition

Its an Israeli company. What was the name of the Israeli company that MS bought?

This device does the processing locally aparently but only costs $20-$30 for companies to incorporate into there devices? If true makes MSs decision to remove the processor to get to a $50 pricepoint look a little strange. Link gives a bit of info on how it works also:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/186552/minority_report_interface_shown_at_ces.html

At $20 sounds like a good alternative to PSEye for the Arc system :lol:

EDIT: Actual specs: http://www.primesense.com/category/reference_design

Quite impressive, accurate to 3mm on xy axis and 1cm on z, at a distance of 2 meters. Id expect finger tracking to be possible at that level of accuracy.
Looking further into it MS bought the company 3DV and was also working with PrimeSense in some capacity. Id take a guess that they are using the time of flight camera tech from 3DV(or there tech is based on same principal so bought them for legal reasons) and possibly the work they did with PrimeScene was bassed on there NITE middleware which is the part that works out the skeletal structure from the 3D image produced by the sensor. Total guess though.

liolio

03-Feb-2010, 13:08

They also stated that they would be including a CPU in Natal at E3, so we should not pay much attention to what was promised at that time.

However, his was mentioned by Kipman (http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20527426.800-microsofts-bodysensing-buttonbusting-controller.html)in January this year.

but it also says:

So the 4-centimetre cube may be the worst case scenario that would appear 4 meters from the camera.

If you stand closer and stretches your hand towards the camera, you will probably have much better precision, so finger tracking may very well be possible in that case. The system could also ask you to move closer until it detects the hand properly so kids may have to stand closer to the camera than an adult. You will probably have to go through a setup sequence similar to the EyeToy games anyway before starting the game, so it coould just be a part of it.
Even if this talk about finger tracking is wrong, it would still be possible to track the fingers using the standard cam. Don't know if this is what they do (if they actual do/manage to do it :lol: )
Anyway I'm with you in regard to the wait&see attitude ;)

Shifty Geezer

03-Feb-2010, 14:57

So the 4-centimetre cube may be the worst case scenario that would appear 4 meters from the camera.If so, finger tracking should be readily possible at the near distance. There are ergonomic concerns for the player like that, but it's certainly workable. You'd be looking at finger specific games though. eg. That finger fighter game. I don't know that they can extend Natal to track fingers with the rest of the body, so that you could squeeze an imaginary trigger to fire a virtual gun in the direction your wrist is pointing.

We really need some details on what they actually mean by 'finger tracking'!

patsu

03-Feb-2010, 16:58

Zelda Wii Sequel Goes Motion Plus Only; Expected playable at E3:
http://www.andriasang.com/e/blog/2010/02/03/zelda_motion_plus_and_playable_at_e3/

Wii Motion Plus will feature heavily in the new Zelda game. In fact, Aonuma told Famitsu that it will be Wii Motion Plus exclusive. This was actually an area that was under debate at the outset of development. "After actually making it compatible," said Aonuma, "it just feels so natural. Link's sword and the controller that you're holding become one."

ShadowRunner

04-Feb-2010, 13:49

patsu

04-Feb-2010, 17:54

Sony registered eyepetarc.com:
http://www.brandsonly.nl/ps3/2010/02/04/eyepet-to-play-nice-with-arc-motion-controller/

ollowing up with our search that uncovered Sony’s registering of the domain, PlayStationArc.com, we’ve found yet another interesting domain registered to none other than Sony. This time the domain we’ve uncovered via a “whois” search is EyePetArc.com, which suggests EyePet will work with Arc when it finally releases this fall. The combination is a natural fit considering both EyePet and Arc will require a PlayStation Eye to function.

Looks like Arc will be the official controller name. Instead of Arc-this, Arc-that; it's this-Arc, that-Arc. :)

Iron Tiger

04-Feb-2010, 18:22

Even if this talk about finger tracking is wrong, it would still be possible to track the fingers using the standard cam. Don't know if this is what they do (if they actual do/manage to do it :lol: )
Anyway I'm with you in regard to the wait&see attitude ;)
If MS doesn't have the brains, or isn't providing the resources to achieve that, they should just stop all development of Natal. I'm not saying that it should be a primary means of interfacing, but there's no reason the hardware shouldn't be capable of it. The open source community has pulled it off with RGB webcams. This is the best video I could find (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MAas3uXQto) of Community Core Vision (http://ccv.nuigroup.com/) (a multitouch surface API), but I've tried it out at home, with the camera pointed directly at me, instead of at a silhouette through a touch surface, and I was amazed at how quickly and smoothly it followed my fingers. I can rotate my hand, and the occluded joints disappear, but it never loses track of where my fingers are going. Natal even has a leg up in that it knows exactly where in a scene to look for a hand so it can filter the rest of the image out for finger tracking.

patsu

04-Feb-2010, 18:22

http://www.engadget.com/2010/02/04/augmented-reality-mirror-picks-makeup-for-the-ladies-video/

cosmetic giant Shiseido has finally rolled out its Digital Cosmetic Mirrors in Tokyo malls to help speed things up. The machine is able to recommend products for the user's skin type, while allowing them to view it applied via an augmented reality effect.

R5zZ5qZP5Ok

Iron Tiger

04-Feb-2010, 18:25

http://www.engadget.com/2010/02/04/augmented-reality-mirror-picks-makeup-for-the-ladies-video/

I wish they would have used a model with a more "generic" face. I had to keep looking at the reference image to see if the AR wasn't glitching. Is this Toshiba's thing, or something else?

patsu

04-Feb-2010, 20:57

I have noooo.... idea !

Here's another concept. Gestures should work as snappy as this:
http://www.gesture-cube.com/

AzBat

05-Feb-2010, 01:26

Image of Natal. Looks very similar to the PrimeSense product:

http://www.maxconsole.net/content_img/natalszzzzproto.jpg

PrimeSense:

http://www.techmagnews.com/wp-content/uploads/images/PrimeSense_tech_watches_you_watching_TV.jpg

Here's the mock-up shown at E3...

http://natalxbox360.org/images/xbox-360-natal-sensor.jpg

Looks like it might have gotten a little smaller. Thank God. I like the Gorillapod add-on, gives it character. I can totally see MS going for the cute design where the peripheral looks like some kind of character/animal etc...

BTW, why does it say "Class 1 Laser"? Wasn't aware it had a laser.

Tommy McClain

Silent_Buddha

05-Feb-2010, 02:03

Looks like it might have gotten a little smaller. Thank God. I like the Gorillapod add-on, gives it character. I can totally see MS going for the cute design where the peripheral looks like some kind of character/animal etc...

BTW, why does it say "Class 1 Laser"? Wasn't aware it had a laser.

Tommy McClain

Imagine the possiblities for bundles if they can customize the "cute" exterior. :D Doubtful it would happen due to costs, but would be interesting. For example a Viva Pinata bundle with a Natal controller looking like a character from it. :D

Maybe if Natal slotted into a "stand". That would make the "stand" and shell interchangable. Interesting possibilities. Which could also open up a 3rd party market of custom Natal stand/shells. Heh, huge marketing opportunity that MS will probably completely miss out on.

Mobile Gundam Shell/stand. Warthog Shell/stand. Endless fun. :D

Regards,
SB

Iron Tiger

05-Feb-2010, 09:01

Perhaps Ms didn't ditched the internal processor after all? The Prime Sense site says that they need one of those fancy tvs with onboard processors to be able to use their camera...

What i mean is that perhaps the performance figure Ms gave was just the overhead for using the system, even if all the processing remains inside the camera. (TBH, i thought that 10-15% of 360's resources for all the computing natal is supposed to be doing seemed rather low)Actually, that seems very high for a 30Hz input that shouldn't be any more complex (after filtering) than a DualShock 2.

Prophecy2k

05-Feb-2010, 10:31

Are we even sure that this Primal Sense thing is indeed Natal?

I mean why would MS buy the company 3DV and their tech, parade it around at E3, release all the technical specs and stuff to developers so that they can already start making games for the thing... only to now ditch all of that and start again with a different company at the beginning of 2010.

I would hazard a guess that the primal sense tech is a completely different animal all together and certainly not MS or Natal related. I would assume Natal's HW specs are already set in stone, given that they intend to ship the thing fall this year with enough software (which provided they are smart - and i'm sure they are - they'll give devs enough time with the HW to ensure Natal isn't launched alongside a plethora of shovelware).

Silent_Buddha

05-Feb-2010, 10:34

Also consider that MS bought 3DV mostly for the patent portfolio than the actual hardware, although I'm sure after the purchase they'll leverage their experience with hardware.

And have licensed from other companies in order to avoid patent infringement.

All work with Natal was done independant of those other companies according to MS.

Regards,
SB

LightHeaven

05-Feb-2010, 14:53

Adding more fuel to the fire:

http://blogs.ft.com/techblog/2009/09/microsofts-natal-secrets-revealed/

According to this blog, Ms has actually built natal with the help of Gesturetek (that's kinda expected as that company holds pretty much all patents regarding image recognition, but they also have a 3d camera), Prime Sense and Canesta, and of course 3Dv systems. The article raises a very interesting fact: Prime Sense only becamen secretive about its partnerships after Ms allegedly contacted them.

This other article also says Ms has partner up with that but Canesta: http://venturebeat.com/2009/05/29/peeling-back-another-layer-of-detail-on-microsofts-secret-gesture-control-system-for-games/

And it point outs an interesting fact: Ms has contacted pretty much all the companies in the world which presented a working solution for 3d cameras using infrared, but what for?

I wonder if natal is a junction from tech from all these other companies, if Ms only grabbed the one they thought the best, or even if Ms really just bought 3dv for patents, while the technology is all internal and just made some deals with all these companies to prevent anyone else to use a similar setup on a controller.

Training the camera to interpret poses using machine learning algorithms does seem something very particular to natal.

Actually, that seems very high for a 30Hz input that shouldn't be any more complex (after filtering) than a DualShock 2.

Yeah, that's true... But hopefully in 5 more days Ms will finally clear things up on Gamefest... I just hope they don't block all presentations regarding Natal...

Nesh

05-Feb-2010, 16:47

And it point outs an interesting fact: Ms has contacted pretty much all the companies in the world which presented a working solution for 3d cameras using infrared, but what for?

To issue agreements with them on any similar technology. They reduce possible future competitionso that for competitors it will be harder to find partners involved on such solutions and come up with a similarly competitive product. MS wants to hold the "innovation" as tight as possible in their hand for a competitive advantage.

obonicus

05-Feb-2010, 16:50

Yeah, quite likely to be patent shenanigans. The Immersion fiasco didn't end so cleanly, remember.

dobwal

05-Feb-2010, 17:38

Yeah, quite likely to be patent shenanigans. The Immersion fiasco didn't end so cleanly, remember.

I agree. Since, these companies are so small its better to pay them off now or buy them completely so that MS doesn't get hit with a bunch of litigation without their own portfolio of patents and patent licenses. Or use that portfolio of patents to hit others who infringe too closely to Natal.

Silent_Buddha

05-Feb-2010, 18:14

And considering how closely MS is being watched by virtually everyone. They appear to be going out of their way to make sure they aren't infringing on anyone's patent's and licensing where they might be.

In the MS litigation happy world we live in now, to do otherwise would be to open themselves up to lawsuits left and right if Natal became a hit.

Regards,
SB

patsu

05-Feb-2010, 18:35

One of the MS executives (Shane Kim ?) already acknowledged that they are playing a patent "game" when Natal was first revealed.

If they can button down the details, they should be able to market aggressively before Natal is launched to build hype (like the 1984 SuperBowl Macintosh ad before anyone saw it).

patsu

05-Feb-2010, 19:36

First fishing game using Wiimote+:
http://www.andriasang.com/e/blog/2010/02/05/wii_motion_plus_fishing/

DEhEmpAu3xM

Iron Tiger

07-Feb-2010, 06:24

This thing claims to do 3D motion tracking with any standard webcam, but the initial application doesn't scream "Natal Killer."
4jRt_uYtbSI

Shifty Geezer

07-Feb-2010, 09:37

Not really possible to glean accuracy from that clip. EyeToy was doing similar with it's later Play titles AFAIK (though I haven't played any past ETPlay 1). The other serious issue is lighting. Natal uses IR so is immune to lighting conditions. Optical methods will be affected by environment and camera quality.

patsu

07-Feb-2010, 10:31

Yap, unless that light ball can help PSEye in some way (e.g. have IR magic, or equivalent), Sony will suffer from weak/inconsistent lighting condition that plagued PSEye from time to time.

MfA

07-Feb-2010, 11:34

It's internally lit and diffuse. If you have lights harsh enough to drown out the internal coloured lighting and shadows stark enough to make it unrecognisable as a sphere you have bigger problems (blindness). It's not like IR is rare either, it's just that it's very hard to confuse the structured lighting primesense uses with some random remote ... an evenly colored circle shape is also pretty highly structured.

Shifty Geezer

07-Feb-2010, 11:42

Yap, unless that light ball can help PSEye in some way (e.g. have IR magic, or equivalent), Sony will suffer from weak/inconsistent lighting condition that plagued PSEye from time to time.As MfA says, the lightball is safe. It's the use of a camera to track the body that'll prove problematic.

patsu

07-Feb-2010, 13:19

Aye, I meant using the light ball to help the camera see better. Not using the light ball for motion sensing itself.

MfA

07-Feb-2010, 15:03

Yes, and I'm saying that it's ridiculous to expect it needs more help than simply being lit.

Shifty Geezer

07-Feb-2010, 15:36

Aye, I meant using the light ball to help the camera see better. Not using the light ball for motion sensing itself.As in illuminating the player?

patsu

07-Feb-2010, 19:25

Yes, something like that. Have to look at what's inside the light ball, and what it's capable of.

Yes, and I'm saying that it's ridiculous to expect it needs more help than simply being lit.

Will it work reliably ? Where and how to lit the player for best effects ? Using Arc ? Is it "strong" enough ? Is it automatic ? etc.

I think there are quite a few uncertainties and questions to ensure a good PSEye "read" -- if Sony does not address the lighting condition adequately.

Prophecy2k

08-Feb-2010, 14:25

I don't think the point of the light ball on the end of the wand is to "light the player", rather to ensure the camera can see the wand regardless of the environment lighting conditions.

Not sure if you're confusing yourself there patsu... unless Sony have said something to that effect? :shock:

patsu

08-Feb-2010, 16:33

It's a light bulb/source. :)

So it's natural to think about its normal use cases.

Shifty Geezer

08-Feb-2010, 17:08

More likely a small LED than a light-bulb, so giving off as much light as that. Plus a moving lightsource is going to cast all sorts of crazy shadows that'd more likely confuse human image recognition than aid it. I doubt any peripheral will be able to aid optical human recognition, as you really want a powerful diffuse light-box for that!

patsu

08-Feb-2010, 17:11

That's entirely possible.

If it's getting used to help PSEye, it'd have to be set down (we talked about this a little a while ago). Am also curious whether it can be used as an AmBX gadget for the lighting effects.

In my experiences, PSEye may not like a strong light source (Probably wash out the picture). So a more soothing light source may be good (I don't know yet).

EDIT: The PSEye can "see" under poor lighting conditions, so just a little more light would help in dark areas. Trying to spotlight the player could be worse than low light.

obonicus

08-Feb-2010, 17:13

With AmBX and a vibration function, it'd be the perfect Rez device. As long as you have a controller as well.

Arwin

08-Feb-2010, 18:45

Anyone remember this? Makes some kind of sense for the ARC, right?

What platforms are supported?

The current amBX SDK supports Microsoft Windows platforms. SDK for Sony PLAYSTATION ®3 will be available to licensed Sony PS3 developers soon.

As for lighting, in my experience the PS Eye so far can handle moderate to good lighting conditions pretty well, but for instance Eye of Judgment hated to have more than one lightsource - say form a second light or from the TV (would typically choose an energy saving mode for it when playing that game)

patsu

08-Feb-2010, 19:08

I'd like to experiment with the Arc light more.

At this moment, I don't believe it will shine too brightly. I think the 2 light source problem you encountered could be a "too harsh/bright" problem. But I am not sure.

The inherent advantage for Arc light source is: PS3 knows what exactly it's outputing on Arc (shape, color, intensity, distance). So it should be very good for self-diagnose and self-adjustment to "understand" and quantify the environment.

May also help to lower customer support calls to see if Arc is working properly. Every PC comes with mic test. Every PS3 should come with Arc test. Same for 360.

EDIT: I am keen to have the Arc as a music visualizer though. I usually turn off my TV screen if I used the PS3 for playing music.

patsu

08-Feb-2010, 22:09

Shigeru says new hardware is on the way from Nintendo:
http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3177860

The Mario creator didn't get down to specifics on the device, but this is still the first real acknowledgement of new hardware by one of the higher-ups at Nintendo. We'll have to wait and see whether he's referring to the rumored Wii HD, a successor to the DS, or something totally unexpected.

obonicus

08-Feb-2010, 23:31

3 years into the younger console's lifecycle, isn't that about as surprising as them saying "we're working on a new Zelda"?

patsu

08-Feb-2010, 23:45

If he's willing to acknowlege now, then may be the formal announcement will be soon-ish ?

Prophecy2k

09-Feb-2010, 13:31

Isn't this perhap's the wrong thread for that?

patsu

09-Feb-2010, 16:35

Yes, was looking for a place to post it. Since the new hardware confirmation is just a mention in passing, I did not want to start a new thread. The original article also mentioned a new Wiimote+ Zelda game though. It is unclear whether the new hardware will build on top of motion sensing.

patsu

15-Feb-2010, 22:50

Facial recognition on iPhone (We touched on this concept briefly):
http://gizmodo.com/5472251/the-facial-recognition-augmented-reality-app-that-could-revolutionize-stalking

An app demoed today at the MWC identifies individuals—and pulls up their profiles, with facial recognition—just by looking at them. That's some fancy futuristic stuff right there... although there may be darker side.

The Face.com-powered app from Comverse can recognize a friend or colleague and automatically show you links to their profile or pictures and let you message them without accessing your contact list. Great so far! But according to the press release, it's not just limited to the people you know:

# Acquaintances: The app has the potential to connect people before they even know each other's names. If you bump into someone who you met before and he or she looks familiar but you can't remember why, the app will locate that person's online profile to put a name to the face.

EDIT: pseudo-3D UI + gestures on Android:
http://www.engadget.com/2010/02/15/tat-home-the-gesture-powered-3d-home-screen-your-android-device/

bOGmnnGpoqg

patsu

16-Feb-2010, 17:38

Stolen from GAF:
https://www.cmpevents.com/GD10/a.asp?option=C&V=11&SessID=10534

http://i48.tinypic.com/2u90s9x.gif

... and a random rumor:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=19825148&postcount=256

Heard from Dev friend who has these at his work.

Was initially given the PSWand with big pink blob, looks like sex toy. Last few weeks wireless nunchuck arrived!

Has analog stick and square and circle on it and I think L1 and R1. I'll have to check the proper details but looks like the nunchuk will happen.

Wireless too, sweet.

Salt please ! The wand already has the ^[]OX buttons. If it's the nunchuck, I'd rather it is part of the splittable DS3.

Silent_Buddha

16-Feb-2010, 18:37

So, looks like the PS3 wand will be a relatively close clone of the Wii controls except more accurate, while MS went off in a completely different direction.

Really can't wait for E3 and hopefully get more information on what's coming out for everyone to push their motion control solutions. :)

Regards,
SB

thop

16-Feb-2010, 18:42

Last few weeks wireless nunchuck arrived!
I'm curious how Sony will sell this as innovation and new technology, like the SIXAXIS at E3 :grin:

Dr Evil

16-Feb-2010, 18:51

Couldn't help but to notice that the latest Smallville episode had some Natal product placement going on.

h5ARL7o86iU

patsu

16-Feb-2010, 18:57

PC and Mac have the same underlying hardware tech, but their software and marketing are what differentiate them.

In my view...
Hardware-wise, Arc suffers from the "me too" or better mouse trap issue. Sony is also pushing quite a few pieces (Arc controller, 3D, any chargeable PSN plan). They will need to think the hardest to figure out what exactly they are pitching (combined). Relying on their hardware marketing guys alone will likely fall flat (Think PSP Go, and earlier piecemeal PS3 marketing). Sadly, they only hold a partial picture of the final product.

Software-wise, if they can put more new ideas like the sketch recognition stuff to daily use, then it would appeal more to the end users. The overall software experience (e.g., Minority Report's controller-free UI, or Harry Porter style magical wand) will depend on how well they work, and how useful they are. In general, they both allow controller-free applications, but choosing the best tool for the job would be key in the long run. At this point, I think the no-remote pitch is great for home theater. OTOH, Arc has no signature software yet, except for WiiSports. So again, Sony needs to look for its own flagship software different from WiiSports (Preferably, serving a different need).

I'm curious how Sony will sell this as innovation and new technology, like the SIXAXIS at E3 :grin:

SIXAXIS is great except that Sony didn't go far enough (No commitment => Didn't think through enough). Folklore and Flower justified for the existence of SIXAXIS. If they take the current hardware centric approach, then Arc will definitely suffer. So this time, hopefully they go deep.

The above are known issues and perception of SCE. Arc is more interesting to me as a way to see how Sony executes (and improves itself -- more than just talks). From the GT5 thread, I _think_ I can see marketing fighting/patching with the dev since they come in so late (You hear Kazunori say, "It's up to marketing now". Ideally a large part of it should happen at the beginning, not at the end).

Argh, that Smallville video is bad. The actor's action doesn't match up with the game at all.

Nesh

16-Feb-2010, 19:37

Couldn't help but to notice that the latest Smallville episode had some Natal product placement going on.

h5ARL7o86iU

heh even in the video the response time is too high

Toaddio

17-Feb-2010, 02:09

In my view...
Hardware-wise, Arc suffers from the "me too" or better mouse trap issue.

The only benefit this will probably upon release is that Wii developers will be able to make quick ports of successful Wii games and add some control improvements. The "Arc", or whatever it will be called could be released with a dozen or more popular titles. Good initial sales would convince more developers to invest in more titles.

patsu

17-Feb-2010, 05:00

It may help Wii-like software sales, but may not help hardware sales -- if people can get the "original" Wiimote+ and Vitality Sensor experience at a cheaper price.

In general, Sony will have to come up with a new twist to the natural interface formula, unless they want to rely solely on capturing a small portion of HD upgraders for Wii.

Shifty Geezer

17-Feb-2010, 09:56

It may help Wii-like software sales, but may not help hardware sales -- if people can get the "original" Wiimote+ and Vitality Sensor experience at a cheaper price.I think Sony is and always has been going for the package deal. Yes, people who only want Wiiness will buy the cheaper Wii (and I'm assuming perhaps 100 million undecided console buyers can be found by the end of this generation of hardware). However, anyone who wants Wiiness and Unchartedness and BluRayness and cannot overlook the exceptional value of PS3 - as long as Sony communicates that effectively and maintains an aggressive price-reduction policy. In that respect, Arc doesn't have to be the reason to own a PS3, but yet another reason, the decision making factor that tips decisions in PS3's favour. Of course for that, it needs to be well implemented. PSEye was never a buying conisderation for the typical shopper, where Arc has to bring something tangible and valuable to the table. I dare say marketing will be more important for these devices than the hardware!

Iron Tiger

17-Feb-2010, 18:45

Argh, that Smallville video is bad. The actor's action doesn't match up with the game at all.The video showcased an undisclosed feature of Natal. It can see through wood! She's playing Ricochet from behind a coffee table, making kicking motions.

Shifty Geezer

17-Feb-2010, 19:31

We know Natal can track through some occlusion at least. However it's pretty obvious to me this is them pretending to play and we're not seeing their true interactions, much like TV characters supposedly playing musical instruments rarely even match the correct broad motions (eg. a piano playing low notes with the hands still mid-keyboard, or a cellist keeping their hands at the neck of the instrument).

patsu

17-Feb-2010, 19:36

Yes, the 360 could be playing a trailer, and that's it.

_phil_

17-Feb-2010, 20:24

Then , great body acting , he got the gameplay in its essence.

patsu

17-Feb-2010, 20:32

Then , great body acting , he got the gameplay in its essence.

The "Wii girlfriend playing hula-loop in panty" video is still the best. :cool:

LightHeaven

17-Feb-2010, 22:03

makattack

17-Feb-2010, 22:45

Ms' gamefest has already come and gone, and even thought all the presentations are still locked it seems it was a success.

http://www.ozymandias.com/attending-microsoft-gamefest-with-lots-of-natal-love

The guy talks about how it was great to present a few tech demos from natal and leave a once cynical audience wowed.

He also hints about the tech demos presented at gamefest being shown publicly before launch.

Possibly at PAXEast 2010:

http://twitter.com/majornelson/status/9236259846

I sure hope you have your #PAXEast tickets....we've got some solid stuff planned for that weekend in Boston.

patsu

17-Feb-2010, 23:26

YES ! Looking forward to see and experience all the natural interface demoes personally. Tools like XNA will encourage user generated content for these technologies too. ^_^

And here's the Wii girlfriend video:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1025434/Girl-Wii-fit-YouTube-clip-gets-TWO-MILLION-admirers.html

Silent_Buddha

19-Feb-2010, 18:10

Heh, man I haven't been paying attention to this stuff, with trying not to look into things too much until we get closer to release (E3), but noticed a TGS video where people were shown playing Katamari with Natal. Heh, that was interesting...

Regards,
SB

LightHeaven

19-Feb-2010, 19:45

Butta

20-Feb-2010, 00:52

New natal hands on with ricochet demo:

http://techland.com/2010/02/19/in-which-we-demo-project-natal/

It seems like the lag issues are gone, or at least way lessened... The demo itself also seems to look a bit better.

No wonder no lag... they are only tracking 11 points on the body now!!! We've gone from 48 points, to 31 points to now only 11 points... no wonder no lag. That has to be far less computational!

warb

20-Feb-2010, 01:43

No wonder no lag... they are only tracking 11 points on the body now!!! We've gone from 48 points, to 31 points to now only 11 points... no wonder no lag. That has to be far less computational!
Up to 31 different points. 11 seems adequate for this game.

Lag seems less for this, but I doubt they were calculating 31 or more points for it previously. Processing was offloaded to the 360 CPU since then?

ShadowRunner

20-Feb-2010, 02:24

Though not directly motion control related think this is as good a place as any to post this without making a new thred. Sony has just filed a patent for a universal game controller (http://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=/netahtml/PTO/search-adv.html&r=1&p=1&f=G&l=50&d=PG01&S1=20100041480.PGNR.&OS=dn/20100041480&RS=DN/20100041480) where they specificaly mention use on xbox and nintendo consoles. Wonder what motivations they have for this...

patsu

20-Feb-2010, 05:17

I was told that universal controller patent was filed by Sony Electronics (think TV universal remote) instead of SCEA. I doubt anything will come out of it.

Shifty Geezer

20-Feb-2010, 10:18

I think it's a hedging thing. Basically it's a form of programmable remote/controller. Nothing particularly new or exciting to that.

LightHeaven

20-Feb-2010, 22:52

No wonder no lag... they are only tracking 11 points on the body now!!! We've gone from 48 points, to 31 points to now only 11 points... no wonder no lag. That has to be far less computational!

That's probably for the demo, and i dunno if they removed any points from before... Any way, the way the avatar moves looks to be more concise too, at E3 it was pretty jerky specially at some peculiar poses (BAM, there it is!), now it also seems to move smoother, so i guess in the end that's what it matters: We are getting way better response time and more accurate visual representations of our movements.

liolio

23-Feb-2010, 14:00

zed

23-Feb-2010, 18:59

Some news about natal.
check the video ~30secs in, another (BAM, there it is!) moment where the avatar is all scrunched up.
This is a software issue but not *that* difficult to solve, so a bit strange its still occuring

patsu

23-Feb-2010, 20:01

(((interference)))

23-Feb-2010, 23:34

Some news (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/jonathan-ross-plays-natal-on-camera) about natal. Basically it's a bit unfair to the tech as lag seems is easier to notice than when using a pad. If the figures in this news are accurate Ms has already made a good (80ms to 120ms). In the end no matter the resources Natal takes CPU wise the most limiting factor for the take could end human perception this may push Natal toward 60fps and a minimal number of frames between input and output.

http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2010/02/22/project-natal-timing-the-delay/ (http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2010/02/22/project-natal-timing-the-delay/)

If the average lag is 100ms, that's excellent as that's the same as the theoretical minimum controller latency at 30FPS.

If theyre getting 80ms at times, it should mean the software is running faster than 30fps,

LightHeaven

24-Feb-2010, 03:21

check the video ~30secs in, another (BAM, there it is!) moment where the avatar is all scrunched up.
This is a software issue but not *that* difficult to solve, so a bit strange its still occuring

This site is claiming that the new demonstrations were made with the same hardware from e3 (but probably more advanced software), but that Ms already has final prototypes that are more precise.

I'm not sure if its bullsh*t or not, but even a october release leaves Ms with almost the same time they had to improve the tech from E3 09 till now, so maybe that's still a WIP...

Crossbar

24-Feb-2010, 08:40

Is Rob Dyer a new hire ?

Anyway, Industry Gamers has an interview with him, Senior PR VP to talk about Arc:
http://www.industrygamers.com/news/ps3s-motion-control-approach-speak-softly-and-carry-a-big-stick/

Read it at your own risk.

Trying to filter out the PR fluff, this is what I found interesting in that article:

“From a third-party perspective it's easier to develop for, you can use the same code base that you currently use for PS3 or 360 or even the Wii in order to get a motion controller game out."

This indicates that the controller setup with wand and nun-chuck (left hand dualshock or whatever) will basically offer the same buttons and analog sticks as the dualshock, where the wand motion could replace one of the analog sticks.

(((interference)))

24-Feb-2010, 08:44

rabidrabbit

24-Feb-2010, 09:14

Crossbar

24-Feb-2010, 09:16

I wonder why all the press are still complaining about the Natal lag when they've shown it is as good as Halo 3 on average (sometimes even better) and much better than the input lag in games like KZ2 and GTA4.

When was this shown?

Sounds like a pretty stupid comparison as lag in FPS games is rarely a controller input issue.

Silent_Buddha

24-Feb-2010, 09:18

But can input lag of a traditional controller be directly compared with the input lag of a full body motion sensor?
It might be approximately the same, but how it feels for the player is more important than what it is in paper.
When you see your "mirror image" responding off-sync with your motions is more distracting and disturbing than when there's a physical controller between you and your avatar, which isn't mirroring your movements 1:1.
The lag is something one might get used to, but it sure doesn't give a good first impression.

It's not too different from a platformer where you press a button to jump and X ms later your character jumps. Or when shooting. Or turning in a FPS (controller latency here is particularly infuriating). Heck with Wii, I've noticed considerable controller latency for motion controls. Haven't tried the new 1 to 1 controllers, so not sure if those have been improved.

So I can understand those feelings. But still it isn't all that different from controller latency in a standard controller, assuming they actually do get it that low.

Regards,
SB

Crossbar

24-Feb-2010, 10:10

It's not too different from a platformer where you press a button to jump and X ms later your character jumps. Or when shooting. Or turning in a FPS (controller latency here is particularly infuriating). Heck with Wii, I've noticed considerable controller latency for motion controls. Haven't tried the new 1 to 1 controllers, so not sure if those have been improved.

So I can understand those feelings. But still it isn't all that different from controller latency in a standard controller, assuming they actually do get it that low.

The difference is that when you press a button you move your finger just 1 mm and that information is intantaniously sent to the console. To detect a movement using a camera you need a larger movement which will be sampled by the camera by a certain interval and then you have the image processing time which all adds up and make the time from that you start your movement until it is detected by the console certainly longer than if you press a button.
If you also have some filtering that removes unintended movements, that will add even more time.

It is quite a big difference in my opinion, but I don´t think this is an issue for the games that Natal is inteded for. People seem to be enjoying the Wii boxing games even though it´s far from perfect so no need to make a big deal of it.