Old Discussion Thread for all 3 motion controllers [Archive] - Page 3

Silent_Buddha

10-Jun-2009, 06:12

With respect to Natal, the origin of this discussion, the question is whether the 48 joints include fingers, and the consensus is they don't, that the hand is represented as a joint in the centre of the plam or somesuch, and the position of the fingers is irrelevant. I think the definition of 'finger recognition' meaning 'can we spot any fingers and what shape do they make; to be apt. Joint-level finger tracking is going to require some contact sensors I imagine, or some insane image recognition methods. I still can't think of any use for that level of tracking though. A virtual piano could be managed just with placement of a digit in an area of the FOV, for example. Perhaps the main use for true digit tracking would be in VR with correct vitrual object placement, graphic occlusion, and finger interaction with a creature?

Well in one of the articles, they asked the presenter about this. And he mentioned finger recognition could be possible (with regards to finger signs). Since it's still basically under developement there's always the possibility of very basic finger tracking. For relaying military style signs. But perhaps not enough for fine finger control.

Between now and release they could add/subract pretty much anything from the system. Although subtracting things to track could be problematic with dev kits being sent out to more devs.

Regards,
SB

Crossbar

10-Jun-2009, 10:25

Let us hope Milo will recognise if someone gives him the finger or makes tongue-in-cheek movements. The hard one will be to detect if someone is rolling his eyes, during conversation.

10-Jun-2009, 11:09

Well in one of the articles, they asked the presenter about this. And he mentioned finger recognition could be possible (with regards to finger signs). Since it's still basically under developement there's always the possibility of very basic finger tracking. For relaying military style signs. But perhaps not enough for fine finger control.

Between now and release they could add/subract pretty much anything from the system. Although subtracting things to track could be problematic with dev kits being sent out to more devs.

Regards,
SB

I am pretty sure image recognition in sign language is quite advance now. It was pretty good a decade ago when I saw one.

catisfit

10-Jun-2009, 11:14

I think they can do significantly better than that considering silhouette boundary pixels carry much more information than a single (binary) bit, thanks to inherit low pass filtering.
For ideal lighting and coloring conditions you can get practically perfect readings.

I'll do some perfect renders which should illustrate my point. At 4m from the camera in perfect conditions, you need to accurately capture to 1/100th of a pixel to get a depth resolution of 1cm. At 5m the same depth resolution requires a sensitivity of 6/1000th of a pixel.

Naboomagnoli

10-Jun-2009, 11:36

:lol: It could get worse ! If the gestures can be tracked accurately and quickly, I am actually thinking about controlling 2 players at the same time in FIFA using my left and right hands. Just do a running man gesture on both hands, and have them pass a virtual ball between the 2 hands. I think I can do banana kick or bicycle kick using the fingers too (simulate leg movement). :-P

I find the control scheme for sports games like MLB 2009 much much too hard (Too many button combination to remember). Don't know about FIFA.

If this ever happens I will kill again. :evil:

patsu

10-Jun-2009, 17:59

Heh heh, I haven't even talked about voice input yet :-P. While MLB 2009 has difficult controls, it has pretty cool voice support (Getting the crowd to use/repeat your own cheers via a mic).

More Tretton PR stuff: http://www.cnbc.com/id/31204970

This time round, they seem to understand wide spread support for the controller is important.

The company will roll the device out next year. While Sony only focused on tech demos at its press conference, Tretton says gamers may be surprised when they see how many games will support the technology.

...

"[But] I think our [motion] controller can be used with every game that’s on the system now — and every game we’re working on.”

patsu

10-Jun-2009, 19:21

Took journalists and Nintendo long enough to publish more details about the Vitality sensor:
http://kotaku.com/5285232/how-the-wii-vitality-sensor-actually-works

Seems that the WVS works by measuring the flow of blood through the user's body, a small light sensor inside the device somehow able to measure that flow and determine various characteristics of your body's workings.

For instance, by watching your blood flow, the sensor can apparently determine when and how hard you're breathing in and out. One of the "games" demonstrated with the device - which may or may not make it into a "game" for the WVS - was a simple breathing exercise, as users timed their breathing to the tick/tock of a metronome.

betan

10-Jun-2009, 19:35

I'll do some perfect renders which should illustrate my point. At 4m from the camera in perfect conditions, you need to accurately capture to 1/100th of a pixel to get a depth resolution of 1cm. At 5m the same depth resolution requires a sensitivity of 6/1000th of a pixel.
I'm not sure what you are going to illustrate with perfect renders.
Do you think RGB camera can be used to measure fractional pixel distances or is it limited to discrete integer pixel distances?
If you are going to illustrate it with a render, you need massive AA (comparable to one in a physical camera).

Iron Tiger

10-Jun-2009, 19:58

Took journalists and Nintendo long enough to publish more details about the Vitality sensor:
http://kotaku.com/5285232/how-the-wii-vitality-sensor-actually-works
Wow, that sounds like seconds of fun!

patsu

10-Jun-2009, 20:18

The breathing exercise ?

Wii is also selling to the wellness crowd. As long as it's useful to them and mildy entertaining, people may bite. PS3 and 360 are facing tough gamer crowd with highly competitive and similar products, they will have a more difficult time accepting the concept.

I'm actually curious what my son's readings are like after some Wii games. Seniors and pregnant women might be wondering about their own stats too.

The V. sensor box also shows one hand plugged into the sensor, while the other holding on to the Wiimote. I'd imagine a horror game based on your real vitality may work. Until Nintendo demoes their VooDoo applications, we won't know how many seconds or hours the concept will last.

Silent_Buddha

10-Jun-2009, 20:54

It certainly appears to have potential to actually monitor physical reactions to either what is happening in game (horror/action/empathic game for example) or what the game is prompting you to do (exercise for example).

Regards,
SB

AzBat

10-Jun-2009, 22:07

Took journalists and Nintendo long enough to publish more details about the Vitality sensor:
http://kotaku.com/5285232/how-the-wii-vitality-sensor-actually-works

Nothing special tech wise. Seen these things for years in hospitals. The price just got low enough where they can easily be used in different markets. Not too surprised to see them show up in games. Just intrigued that it was Nintendo first.

Tommy McClain

patsu

10-Jun-2009, 22:10

For Nintendo, it has never been about the technology. Their applications/games always come first. Wii is not even HD, and they still use buttons. :)

The concept is not new either: http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2009/06/nintendo-vitality-sensor/
Just like motion sensing in Wiimote was not new, but they made it work and popularized it.

wco81

10-Jun-2009, 22:16

Forget about theory for a sec.

Tiger Woods 10 and Grand Slam Tennis both came out in the last day or two with Motion Plus support.

So is it the "1:1" support you expected?

patsu

11-Jun-2009, 00:31

Try them out and let us know ! At the end of the day, the developers have to put everything together "properly".

thatdude90210

11-Jun-2009, 04:10

I've been playing with Motion Plus for a couple of hours with both Grand Slam tennis and Tiger Woods 10. Motion plus works very well in Tiger Woods. The best evidence of the 1:1 motion is in disc golf. When you pick up a disc, the disc follows exactly what your hand does, and the flight reflects exactly how you threw and released the disc.

And motion plus made the short and medium game in golf much more playable than before. I had TW 07 and never bought 08 or 09 because it was so difficult to gauge the swing for anything under 80%, not to mention the false positive swings that made 07 sometimes frustrating. The new TW 10 tracks the back-swing and the follow-though with M+ so it's much easier to get a consistent swing.

TW is definitely a better game with M+. There's a thread on GAF that's full of people raving about it.

For me, the jury is still out on GS tennis. I only played a couple of quick matches with M+ so I haven't found the sweet spot in the control yet. I played last night before I got M+ and the ball placement is just so/so. Nowhere near as good as Wiisports tennis. With M+, ball placement is much better. You can place the ball where you want, most of the time. But the game is a little glitchy. It will sometimes have you in the wrong position just because you're holding the remote a certain way. And you can't just expect to flick the wrist and have your player take a full swing. I'm going to have to unlearn some habits from Wiisports tennis.

patsu

11-Jun-2009, 05:24

The more people try it, the better. The developers will learn to harness the technologies after enough feedback and tweaks.

Tiger Woods 10 GAF thread: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=364537

EA Grand Slam Tennis GAF thread: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=353656

catisfit

11-Jun-2009, 10:42

I'm not sure what you are going to illustrate with perfect renders.
Do you think RGB camera can be used to measure fractional pixel distances or is it limited to discrete integer pixel distances?
If you are going to illustrate it with a render, you need massive AA (comparable to one in a physical camera).

It's not about fractional pixel distances, it's about accuracy at tiny fractional pixel distances.

Refreshment

11-Jun-2009, 21:00

Since game controllers started to adopt a more ergonomic and handle like design, i always thought developers should find a way to measure grip or pressure with the controller. Does anyone know of similar applications in other fields?
It certainly appears to have potential to actually monitor physical reactions to either what is happening in game (horror/action/empathic game for example) or what the game is prompting you to do (exercise for example).
Regards,
SB
Well i agree that there could be some potential interesting uses, yet i think the device is limited in its applications cause of the way Nintendo designed it. You cant use the full Wii controller configuration and if you could, one of your fingers its obstructed by it. The previous one was attached to the ear. I think the 64 DD one was a wristband, if i remember correctly, wich i think was more practical, but i have no idea how effective :).

Ha ha, liolio is right !

Some interesting images from Titanio again:
http://i42.tinypic.com/eb4oas.jpg
(http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=16237604&postcount=1503)

http://i41.tinypic.com/2l8zxxi.jpg (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=16237641&postcount=1505)

Well 2 like the first one would do the work. Why the sphere is absent in those pictures?
I could tie the ribbons on the string to detect vibration instead of tracking the hand motion.
Some time ago i saw a glove that simulated the interaction with objects in a VR environment with air pressure cams for each individual finger.
I've been playing with Motion Plus for a couple of hours with both Grand Slam tennis and Tiger Woods 10. Motion plus works very well in Tiger Woods. The best evidence of the 1:1 motion is in disc golf. When you pick up a disc, the disc follows exactly what your hand does, and the flight reflects exactly how you threw and released the disc.

Is there a need to constantly recalibrate the M+ by pointing at the screen? I think thats what i saw in the Wii Sports Resort sword demo, a bit bothersome.

Speaking of the Nintendo solution, now with M+ out, they should try to expand the controller by redesigning the Nunchuk. I think they felt short there, since theres a lot of stuff they could've added without making its use more complex.

patsu

11-Jun-2009, 22:05

Well 2 like the first one would do the work. Why the sphere is absent in those pictures?

I believe one of the patents they filed uses other geometric shape to track the controller (e.g., 4 LED lights forming a rectangle). Incidentally, SIXAXIS/DS3 has 4 LED lights to indicate controller number (but aligned in one row instead of a rectangle).

thatdude90210

11-Jun-2009, 23:20

Is there a need to constantly recalibrate the M+ by pointing at the screen? I think thats what i saw in the Wii Sports Resort sword demo, a bit bothersome.
In Tiger Woods it's transparent, and works very well for the game. Whatever recalibration they do is behind the scene. I suppose they can do it when you point to pick up the disc for disc golf, or when you press "B" when you are ready to swing a club.

In GST, it's also done behind the scene. The instruction is whenever you feel like M+ isn't responding correctly, you hold the controller still for a couple of seconds.

patsu

11-Jun-2009, 23:40

http://kotaku.com/5287320/nintendo-wii-vitality-sensor-targets-gaming-hold+outs

So, we asked Nintendo of America president Reggie Fils-Aime at E3, what's the Vitality Sensor all about and why unveil it this way?

"We've been very clear that our objective is getting more and more consumers into this gaming industry we love," he said. "In our view, as we grow the consumer base, it will drive a vibrant, healthy industry. We've been able to get a certain number of consumers with Brain Age. We've been able to get more with Wii Fit. We're constantly thinking about what's the next innovation that will drive the consumer who, today, is still saying, 'I want nothing to do with video games,' to get into this industry and have a great experience. In our view, the Vitality Sensor and the software that will accompany it is a step down that path."

Fils-Aime said there are "some unique elements" not yet revealed about the sensor, details that may be revealed early this year. If not, then next year will hold the key. "The product is something we're anticipating to launch some time in 2010," he said.

Iron Tiger

12-Jun-2009, 02:35

http://kotaku.com/5287320/nintendo-wii-vitality-sensor-targets-gaming-hold+outs
I'm a Wii fan and all, but what I pictured while reading that just made me facepalm. I'm thinking Virtual Boy to the power of Wii Music failure.

patsu

12-Jun-2009, 22:43

They may be building a lie detector for a game of Truth or Dare. :twisted:
All men take cover !

Arwin

13-Jun-2009, 20:25

They may be building a lie detector for a game of Truth or Dare. :twisted:
All men take cover !

Are you really that naive? Or do you mean that men should prepare to learn some hard truths about their women? ;)

patsu

13-Jun-2009, 21:26

Whelp, I know some "consumer grade" lie detectors flew off the shelf like crazy. But I think the take home point is: I know what my woman + a lie detector could do to me. For the rest of you out there, you watch your own backyard.

obonicus

13-Jun-2009, 22:09

Silent_Buddha

13-Jun-2009, 22:15

I'm sure most woman wouldn't want to know what their men "truly" thought either. ;)

Regards,
SB

liolio

16-Jun-2009, 16:06

New interview with Shane Kim is available on Gamasutra (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/4053/microsofts_future_begins_now_.php)
I'm currently reading thus I don't know if it adds something new.
EDIT
Still not done reading but damned that guy should stop saying "you know, right?" :lol:

An interesting bit
Kris Graft: If I could jump in before we get totally off Project Natal -- what is the third-party publishers' reaction been to it? A lot of them probably just officially found out about it this week, right?
SK: That's not true. Actually, we took it on the road a couple months ago to show our third-party partners.

Iron Tiger

16-Jun-2009, 16:39

They may be building a lie detector for a game of Truth or Dare. :twisted:
All men take cover !
Well, I guess it could be used in Silent Hill: Shattered Memories when you do the questionaire at the beginning of the game.

patsu

16-Jun-2009, 16:43

... something that capitalize on our inner feelings and behaviour may (or may not) be doable. Something like that Mantis trick in Metal Gear Solid. This time based on gaming data and vitality. e.g., Talking to in-game characters in a horror game, girl friend sim after a mini-sports game. :-P

Unfortunately, the peripheral takes away one finger (essentially one hand). So it's only for a one Wiimote game (or multi-player in the living room)

rabidrabbit

17-Jun-2009, 12:06

Found some couple old threads, they're fun reading today.
Four years ago, we discussed much the same things as today, only relpace MS Natal with Sony EyeToy2 :)

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=23672&highlight=Sony%27s+answer+controller

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=26383

Surprised Sony didn't get the attention in 2005 that Natal is getting today. Maybe they were a bit too ahead of their time.
Also suprised Sony hadn't patented it, so that Microsoft wouldn't have been able to copy them so blatantly.

patsu

17-Jun-2009, 12:19

2005, my God ! :lol:

And this...
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=569522&postcount=3

Isn't this old news?

>_<

Arwin

17-Jun-2009, 12:30

Some great links there rabdirabbit! :D Here's the original article link for that first one (found it in the thread of the second link):

http://www.gamespy.com/articles/584/584744p1.html

If anything, it shows that Sony (and in particular Dr. Marks, obviously) has been working basically non-stop on this probably since the first EyeToy. It gives me some additional confidence for the quality of the up-coming PSMC.

obonicus

17-Jun-2009, 12:56

Surprised Sony didn't get the attention in 2005 that Natal is getting today. Maybe they were a bit too ahead of their time.

They didn't debut it at E3 in front of mostly tech-illiterate journalists.

rabidrabbit

17-Jun-2009, 13:24

True, at least not to the extent of Natal.
They did however demo some augmented reality stuff with PS3 Eye. Remember the LOD (ots Of Ducks) demo, where they interacted with the pool of water. That was neat! They should release it in PSN as a demo.

Shifty Geezer

17-Jun-2009, 18:53

liolio

17-Jun-2009, 18:59

I think that what have made Ms communication campaign pretty succesful is simply that they just didn't go to E3 with promises they let people ewperience the thing as it was working reasonably well their announcement has been succesful. Conf have been some many time filled with empty promises, Ms came with some strong facts as back up that's it imho.

Shifty Geezer

17-Jun-2009, 19:07

True, they had a hands on, whereas Sony never had a hands-on of their AR like the water demo. Which may have been because the water demo was somewhat rigged. I recall the difference between motion and glass movement, as though he was following prerecorded moves. I'm not sure Sony actually had something to show beyond a hopeful promise.

Silent_Buddha

17-Jun-2009, 19:11

Well, kudos to MS for getting the message across in a way Sony didn't. There's no point having tech if you're not going to do something with it! I does also makje me wonder though, have developed Natal is? If Sony had something working like this, would they have shown more? If they haven't, why not? This feeds into my skepticism that Natal won't be as good as the promo stuff appears, a skepticism born in considerable part to Sony failing to deliver for years, and a skepticism which those new to these opportunities haven't had yet! Fingers crossed they never do and this time, we get a full set of natural interactive technologies.

Yes, but did Sony basically push a company directive to all their in house/1st party devs to incorporate motion controls?

If MS are to be believed, they have basically told all their in house devs to incorprate it into projects currently being worked on and projects being planned.

So there appears to be a much larger push on the part of MS to make this work.

I can only assume that with 5 years of not much to show for it, that Sony didn't push as hard for the Eye Toy to become a common control mechanism.

Granted it's only lipservice so far that MS is claiming they are putting ALL their resources into Natal, but it gives me far more optimism for it than Eye Toy + Wand. In other words, will Eye Toy + Wand just be more unfullfilled potential? Or will it become a far more commonplace control mechanism than Eye Toy?

Regards,
SB

Shifty Geezer

17-Jun-2009, 19:16

I can only assume that with 5 years of not much to show for it, that Sony didn't push as hard for the Eye Toy to become a common control mechanism.They clearly didn't! They should have bundled the cam and had a motion interface from day one as many of us EyeToy fans suggested and Sony even suggested themselves IIRC. They had the ball, dropped it, and left it for MS to collect. MS deserve every point they can get.

patsu

17-Jun-2009, 19:20

Given the recent development, all 3 will invest significantly more resources in natural interfaces now.

The 3DV system seems robust. The skeleton generation technology is sexy but seems unsuitable for fast action. The Milo stuff is just a concept video (no live demo). The demoes were not much different from what Sony showed 4 years ago.

They are still rather far away compared to the recent Wiimote Plus Tennis and Golf games. To catch up, MS will have to come up with a controller. Or if they really want to focus on a totally different experiences, then I think it will take an even longer time to polish the experience.

Sony has the benefits and hard learned lessons of productizing SIXAXIS and PS Eye over the years. They should be somewhere in between the two.

It's a game of marketing and software. MS is trying to catch up or take a lead by investing a lot in marketing now (e.g., appearing in consumer shows). Eventually, whoever can deliver the goods to the right people will stand out. At this early stage, the marketing dollars will just make people aware of the space more (but hey, MS has money to throw). It's still too early to tell what will happen next -- even if companies have their aspirations.

Silent_Buddha

17-Jun-2009, 20:38

patsu

17-Jun-2009, 21:11

I certainly hope that's true Patsu. As with more console makers actively pushing the boundaries of motion control in games, the more likely we are to see more revolutionary concepts.

You'll see more than these 3 vendors exploring opportunities in this area as long as people are throwing serious marketing dollars into it. Here's nVidia's effort courtesy of Kotaku:

cNu4CluFOcw

It's not unlike that PSP augmented reality game, Invizimals. IMHO, it's the wrong use of augmented reality but what the heck (Not my $$$ !).

I just don't see the commitment from Sony that I see from MS and Nintendo. Although with MS completely focused upon it as a company, I imagine that next years E3 should give a much better picture of where all 3 companies are going.

But of course. Sony hasn't said much, but it has sunken in the most number of years in augmented reality and natural interface. They probably won't say much until early next year. Doesn't mean they are not committed. May just mean they are afraid of unnecessary leaks.

Shifty Geezer

17-Jun-2009, 21:15

I just don't see the commitment from Sony that I see from MS and Nintendo. Well, investment has been there but spread out somewhat. If you take all Sony's showings and turned them into one E3 presentation, it'd show a lot of 'commitment'. At this point MS have claimed to be turning all their first party developers to Natal, but at the same time they have far fewer devs than Sony, who couldn't make such a grandiose sounding claim. 'All' versus 'some' ...'all' wins ;) That's not to say Sony's budgets or personnel counts are less. They might well be, we don't know, and at least there's some confidence MS are going to deliver because they've given a (vague) timeline, whereas Sony just show cool stuff every once in a while say and say 'yeah, one day'.

Still, in 6-12 months I guess we'll see exactly what Sony have been doing. MS have forced their hand and they'll have to act. Good!

obonicus

17-Jun-2009, 21:32

Yes, but did Sony basically push a company directive to all their in house/1st party devs to incorporate motion controls?

If MS are to be believed, they have basically told all their in house devs to incorprate it into projects currently being worked on and projects being planned.

Did they actually say that? We don't know much about Halo, but we haven't heard anything about Reach using Natal, which you'd think they'd mention, as both are for Fall 2010. We have no idea what titles we'll see from MS in Fall 2010, so it's hard to know, but all I really know about is Milo & Kate and, yes, most of Rare's output. Maybe Big Huge studios has something, maybe even a planned upgrade for the racer, but again, no word of it -- and I doubt they're big enough to actually push two projects at this point.

So there appears to be a much larger push on the part of MS to make this work.

There doesn't appear to me much of anything. I think MS is depending a lot more on 3rd parties -- maybe they hope Rare can deliver killer software. MS needs to crank out a killer app on the level of Wii Sports and so far all we have is the hope that they will -- we have no idea if MS' studios even have the capability to do something like that. It's not like Rare's games have been a tremendous casual pull -- and like someone else said on a different board, if MS is depending on Krome for its casual push, they're in trouble.

I can only assume that with 5 years of not much to show for it, that Sony didn't push as hard for the Eye Toy to become a common control mechanism.

That's true.

Granted it's only lipservice so far that MS is claiming they are putting ALL their resources into Natal, but it gives me far more optimism for it than Eye Toy + Wand. In other words, will Eye Toy + Wand just be more unfullfilled potential? Or will it become a far more commonplace control mechanism than Eye Toy?

We know very little about what their interface will really do. There's talk that it actually is capable of fully-replacing dualshock, in which case the wands could indeed become a standardized control-scheme much like the wiimote, but better-geared towards more complex games. As far as we know, there's a few Sony studios who could be working on this -- London already has been playing with the PSEye for EyePet, and we know about 3rd parties (from joker) already using this device. Actually, this break-apart controller is something that we started hearing reports about last year, as well as the goofy ball-topped dual controller, so it's possible that prototypes have been in dev hands much longer. Not that I'd expect 3rd parties to make a huge push for console games on the PS3, not with its current install-base.

Silent_Buddha

17-Jun-2009, 22:08

Did they actually say that? We don't know much about Halo, but we haven't heard anything about Reach using Natal, which you'd think they'd mention, as both are for Fall 2010. We have no idea what titles we'll see from MS in Fall 2010, so it's hard to know, but all I really know about is Milo & Kate and, yes, most of Rare's output. Maybe Big Huge studios has something, maybe even a planned upgrade for the racer, but again, no word of it -- and I doubt they're big enough to actually push two projects at this point.

Well Bungie isn't a first party dev anymore, although they still retain close ties to MS. 2nd party?

And it's just pure speculation on my part, but it could be that many of the devs that MS have recently cut or allowed to go independant were devs that weren't interested in doing Natal focused projects.

I agree on the killer app(s). Shane Kim implies in many of his interviews that they are going for a multitude of Native Natal apps, and that they "can't rely on 3rd party developers for this." But they have been demoing the system to some select 3rd party devs 2 months prior to E3. And encouraging devs to think of applications for it.

I've lost the article but one of the early ones mentioned the MS rep presenting Natal said that MS has pushed all in house/first party devs to incorporate natal in current projects or plan future projects around Natal.

As I said, it's all a bit PR at this point. So it's just MS paying lipservice to Natal until something more substantial is shown. But it gives me more hope than Sony's current track record.

Regards,
SB

liolio

17-Jun-2009, 23:08

Actually I could see MS deliviring quiet some acceptable games as they will have to aim for various demographics. They may have a more properly done karaoke games, a dancing games (or blended with karaoke young girls like this), real kiddy games (a pack for the 3/4 years old till 6 that kind of tiny), society games (alal 1vs 100 in non online rendition, could be a pack), a wii sport/play rendition, a wii fit rendition, educational/reflection/brain entertainment games, a kart/easy driving game.
I don't think that these kind of games would take a long time to be developped as they are not likely to aim at high quality graphic.
They should also have the interface ready and more services available world wide and sell it along with the available services through dedicated ads.
It's not a in house effort neither a game that would catch non gaming person but they should land a deal about a Sim rendition.

archie4oz

18-Jun-2009, 00:12

How about a little flashback to 2000 with Dr. Richard Marks!

<object width="445" height="364"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/FpNdkm9s8AY&hl=en&fs=1&border=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/FpNdkm9s8AY&hl=en&fs=1&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="445" height="364"></embed></object>

As I said, it's all a bit PR at this point. So it's just MS paying lipservice to Natal until something more substantial is shown. But it gives me more hope than Sony's current track record.

Does it? Shouldn't we wait until Microsofts's 3rd attempt? :p

A bunch more corny Eye Toy footage.. (http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=navgtr&view=videos&query=Eye+Toy)

infinity4

18-Jun-2009, 00:24

patsu

18-Jun-2009, 00:28

I don't think that these kind of games would take a long time to be developed as they are not likely to aim at high quality graphic.

If Microsoft takes this attitude, then they will face an uphill battle against Nintendo and Sony. In fact, the end result may feel shallow/generic or incompatible with Natal's actual technical performance. While casual titles may not need high quality graphics, they may demand a lot of time tuning and evolving the mechanics. Tracking natural behaviour of every body in a fun way may not be trivial.

Also, if you have not tried SingStar, you should give it a test run (with the speech recognition). Poke around the SingStar community and SingStore too. There are still room for improvement (e.g., use voice to search for songs in SingStore), but the overall experience is pretty pleasant. The only part I didn't like was the distribution of the (free) voice recognition "plug-in". It is listed in the SingStore. Took me a while to realize that. I was looking for it in the regular PS Store.

The entire game can be navigated by a 4 year old smoothly. The speech recognition works for the little boy 8 out of 10 times during the first try. So far, it's perfect recognition for my wife and me.

Silent_Buddha

18-Jun-2009, 01:54

I don't mind this but gaming is not supposed to be done like Natal for me. Button pressing is more fun and will always be. Instead of Natal there's real life experiences.

However, I hope it is kept limited because there are things that you wish you did with your finger, ie intricate controls.

Look up TrackIR for some interesting uses of motion control as an enhancement to games using traditional controllers. If you go to the companies list of games, they even have demonstration movies.

http://www.naturalpoint.com/trackir/03-enhanced-games/enhanced-games-all.html

And TrackIR is much simpler than Natal, being an IR camera that tracks 1-3 points (via IR reflectors that are worn) depending on the model.

All thanks to Archie for this, as I became an instant fan as soon as I saw this. Just wish they had more games supported that I play.

So, there's no need to replace controllers, and I'd argue that for some types of games, it's impossible to replace a good controller. While for other games it's entirely possible and compelling to do away entirely with any sort of physical controller.

I'd be extremely surprised and disappointed if MS wasn't aware of this type of potential for Natal.

Regards,
SB

liolio

18-Jun-2009, 17:22

If Microsoft takes this attitude, then they will face an uphill battle against Nintendo and Sony. In fact, the end result may feel shallow/generic or incompatible with Natal's actual technical performance. While casual titles may not need high quality graphics, they may demand a lot of time tuning and evolving the mechanics. Tracking natural behaviour of every body in a fun way may not be trivial.
I strongly disagree, it would be trivial to make games good enough on the technical side for the constumer to notice a neat difference with what the wii is pushing.
In regard to the tracking mechanic, I would say either Natal works or doesn't if it works they will enjoy from Nintendo and Ubisoft experience and grow on this. Between the succes with casual goes really hand to hand with the marketing campaign size, the game doesn't have to be brilliant it won't be put under scrutiny /microscope and played not in a serious manner with friend.
I tried wiiplay and "stupid rabbits" (not sure of the english name) and most of the mini games are not good by any mean. I question the time Nintendo or ubi have put in those games, it's mostly simplistic ideas mixed together, most of the magic appear from the people playing not the game.

Also, if you have not tried SingStar, you should give it a test run (with the speech recognition). Poke around the SingStar community and SingStore too. There are still room for improvement (e.g., use voice to search for songs in SingStore), but the overall experience is pretty pleasant. The only part I didn't like was the distribution of the (free) voice recognition "plug-in". It is listed in the SingStore. Took me a while to realize that. I was looking for it in the regular PS Store.

The entire game can be navigated by a 4 year old smoothly. The speech recognition works for the little boy 8 out of 10 times during the first try. So far, it's perfect recognition for my wife and me.
I'm a poor singer and I don't question singstar quality, it doesn't mean that Ms sould pas tof that kind of game because singstar is good or Lips is not. Between adding dance could be a really good idea young/pre ado girls like to learn the song choregraphy.

patsu

18-Jun-2009, 17:42

I strongly disagree, it would be trivial to make games good enough on the technical side for the constumer to notice a neat difference with what the wii is pushing.
In regard to the tracking mechanic, I would say either Natal works or doesn't if it works they will enjoy from Nintendo and Ubisoft experience and grow on this. Between the succes with casual goes really hand to hand with the marketing campaign size, the game doesn't have to be brilliant it won't be put under scrutiny /microscope and played not in a serious manner with friend.

Visually yes. But in terms of feel, I am not so sure. By the time Natal is launched, the reference would be Wiimote Plus (and potentially Wiimote Plus bundled games), which is more precise and quicker than pure camera-based solutions. It is not so clear cut whether MS can do something on par with Wii on the interaction level by then.

I tried wiiplay and "stupid rabbits" (not sure of the english name) and most of the mini games are not good by any mean. I question the time Nintendo or ubi have put in those games, it's mostly simplistic ideas mixed together, most of the magic appear from the people playing not the game.

Perhaps, but they had to spend time tweaking the sensitivity and feel of the controller. In Wiimote Plus games, the angle and rotation of your arm seem to matter too (Someone was complaining his/her tennis swing doesn't work right if the arm is rotated the wrong way). If MS is content with old mini-games in 2010, then so be it. As I mentioned, it may be an uphill battle against Nintendo and Sony's newest games if MS simply took a "quick mini games" mind set.

I'm a poor singer and I don't question singstar quality, it doesn't mean that Ms sould pas tof that kind of game because singstar is good or Lips is not. Between adding dance could be a really good idea young/pre ado girls like to learn the song choregraphy.

I didn't say MS should pass off Karaoke game. I am just saying there are things in SingStar that are done right and proper (Your statement "They may have a more properly done karaoke games" implied that existing karaoke games are not done properly. Is Lips that bad ?). Chereography could be fun but you don't need 3D tracking for players to do it. They can use the depth camera to swap out the background though.

In 2D sensing, the player has to leave the scene to capture and swap the background. Using the depth camera, they may be able to do it without the player leaving the scene. Would be cool if they can superimpose the player onto an existing music video.

liolio

18-Jun-2009, 18:17

Visually yes. But in terms of feel, I am not so sure. By the time Natal is launched, the reference would be Wiimote Plus, which is more precise and quicker than pure camera-based solutions. It is not so clear cut whether MS can do something on par with Wii on the interaction level by then.
For the kind of games I Played at my friend place I'm not sure that the motion plus has that much relevant, to me it looks like wii motion + adress some lacking more showing in "standard games".
Between there already +50millions Wii out without motion plus.

Perhaps, but they had to spend time tweaking the sensitivity and feel of the controller. In Wiimote Plus games, the angle and rotation of your arm seems to matter too (Someone was complaining his/her tennis swing doesn't work right if the arm is rotated the wrong way). If MS is content with old mini-games in 2010, then so be it. As I mentioned, it may be an uphill battle against Nintendo and Sony's newest games if MS simply took a "quick mini games" mind set.Once again I don't think that Nintendo succes comes from how good the input was. Wii has been succesful through pretty idiotic party games. Nintendo feels the need to improve their wii-mote because imho they felt like in the long run it would be important to satisfy their core audience and to have something good enough to satisfy "standard gamers".
The example about guitar / tennis are fucked up imho, I think that 1-0-1 motion tracking would completely break a tennis game no matter the sensitivity/precision of the device you use play tennis is hard. In house situation with no proper indication of ball hight/speed and no proper racket would land to most people send the ball in net or out of the court.
And mini games are needed, it would be crazy to try to catch casual audience without party games (which so far have always consist of mini games).

I didn't say MS should pass off Karaoke game. I am just saying there are things in SingStar that are done right and proper (Your statement "They may have a more properly done karaoke games" implied that existing karaoke games are not done properly. Is Lips that bad ?). Chereography could be fun but you don't need 3D tracking for players to do it. They can use the depth camera to swap out the background though.I don't know actually if Lips is bad :lol:, for dance I was thinking through funny/costumisable avatars that why I think Natal could add something.

In 2D sensing, the player has to leave the scene to capture and swap the background. Using the depth camera, they may be able to do it without the player leaving the scene. Would be cool if they can superimpose the player onto an existing music video.I wouldn't like it as it's always look lame (even done properly). In regard to the 2D part of Natal we're let in the dark so far, so it's tough to say what can or cannot be done. I think that nevertheless Ms has the software and a good enough camera is cheap, I'm willing to see what they will chose. I would be peaced off if they go with a really shitty camera as it would somehow cripple the system. I've some ideas about how 2D picture manipulation could go hand to hand the 3D leveraging weakness specific to each technology.
It would be deal a deal breaker for me.

dobwal

18-Jun-2009, 19:09

If Microsoft takes this attitude, then they will face an uphill battle against Nintendo and Sony. In fact, the end result may feel shallow/generic or incompatible with Natal's actual technical performance. While casual titles may not need high quality graphics, they may demand a lot of time tuning and evolving the mechanics. Tracking natural behaviour of every body in a fun way may not be trivial.

Also, if you have not tried SingStar, you should give it a test run (with the speech recognition). Poke around the SingStar community and SingStore too. There are still room for improvement (e.g., use voice to search for songs in SingStore), but the overall experience is pretty pleasant. The only part I didn't like was the distribution of the (free) voice recognition "plug-in". It is listed in the SingStore. Took me a while to realize that. I was looking for it in the regular PS Store.

The entire game can be navigated by a 4 year old smoothly. The speech recognition works for the little boy 8 out of 10 times during the first try. So far, it's perfect recognition for my wife and me.

I think MS could use Natal in a really novel way like making a Karoke game where part of the game involves scoring body language and facial expressions (which is mapped onto your avatar in game) during a song. Where the gameplay is more about performing versus just about singing.

I think I would actually enjoy watching people play (I personally have never had any desire to karoke myself because I can't sing a lick).

MS could encourage a social component of the game by allowing you to record your avatars' performances and put them online.

patsu

18-Jun-2009, 19:17

For the kind of games I Played at my friend place I'm not sure that the motion plus has that much relevant, to me it looks like wii motion + adress some lacking more showing in "standard games". Between there already +50millions Wii out without motion plus.

True but they may also be tired of the mini-games now. Retreading old ground may not work for MS. They will have to add their own twist to the collection.

Once again I don't think that Nintendo succes comes from how good the input was. Wii has been succesful through pretty idiotic party games. Nintendo feels the need to improve their wii-mote because imho they felt like in the long run it would be important to satisfy their core audience and to have something good enough to satisfy "standard gamers".
The example about guitar / tennis are fucked up imho, I think that 1-0-1 motion tracking would completely break a tennis game no matter the sensitivity/precision of the device you use play tennis is hard. In house situation with no proper indication of ball hight/speed and no proper racket would land to most people send the ball in net or out of the court.
And mini games are needed, it would be crazy to try to catch casual audience without party games (which so far have always consist of mini games).

Wiimote Plus provides more intuitive and accurate control. From what I hear, people seem to like the new Golf and Tennis games. They provide more subtle control over where the players want the ball to land. I played Wii Golf and couldn't figure out how to control the ball. The kid who played with me snapped the stick quickly with his wrist and the ball landed on the green. >_< While the games were still fun, it broke the immersion/model because after that I just didn't swing properly anymore ("Bah... it's just a toy").

Casuals are not into games, but they may be into their own golf swings. Peter Moore couldn't get them to upgrade from Wii, but it doesn't mean Nintendo can't.

liolio

18-Jun-2009, 22:48

True but they may also be tired of the mini-games now. Retreading old ground may not work for MS. They will have to add their own twist to the collection.
you're may be right but I feel like this kind of games is a requirement for that kind of super causual gaimg Ms is aiming at. There is also to consider it's Ms success in having "new" gamers experiencing this kind of entertainment (the ones who dismissed even the Wii), for them it won't "old". But actually MS strategy is interesting and risky I would like to see marketing studies about the likehood of persons repelled by video games and pad to try games Ms will push. It's quiet q bet :)

Wiimote Plus provides more intuitive and accurate control. From what I hear, people seem to like the new Golf and Tennis games. They provide more subtle control over where the players want the ball to land. I played Wii Golf and couldn't figure out how to control the ball. The kid who played with me snapped the stick quickly with his wrist and the ball landed on the green. >_< While the games were still fun, it broke the immersion/model because after that I just didn't swing properly anymore ("Bah... it's just a toy").

Casuals are not into games, but they may be into their own golf swings. Peter Moore couldn't get them to upgrade from Wii, but it doesn't mean Nintendo can't.I can see what you mean in some party games I tried even without trying to mimmick something I found the Wii mote not reactive enough (for exemple in one game I've beat the rythme and I did terribly because I had to do bigger than expected movment for the input to be detected/validated by the game. But actually we will see what the WM+ brings on the table in this regard.
I agree with you on an earlier comment you made, it's tough to do something with "motion detection" (no matter the input natal/wm+/psmc). Actually I wonder if use such devises (with their differences) to mimmick the "reality", wether it's golf, tennis, baseball, guitar their will always significant exterio factors missing that will end making these devices feel as toys. It can't be a "virtual training" .
Obviously it's a successful approach for marketing and resulting sales but may not be the pertinent use of these devices. One on one motion mapping is overated and often it isn't a good match for some games that would look like obvious matches. For things as dance, training/streching, yoga (most stuff with in fact few interactions between the gamer and the exterior world virtual or not) are more valuable candidate. The real challenge for natal is what track to make the body an viable input (for me most interesting part of the wiimote is the pointing aiming functionnality).
But that's about doing good games and not how to sold the thing and make money.
For instance I would enjoy a flying game with natal, sonething like flower or stuff pretty zen or something more speed. they would track head and shoulders movment to do the trick.
I think it could be a great experience but I'm not sure that's experience easy to market or to push in the causual realm, it could be a very personal immersive experience way tougher to sell than whatever gimmick they may conme with.

patsu

18-Jun-2009, 23:10

you're may be right but I feel like this kind of games is a requirement for that kind of super causual gaimg Ms is aiming at. There is also to consider it's Ms success in having "new" gamers experiencing this kind of entertainment (the ones who dismissed even the Wii), for them it won't "old". But actually MS strategy is interesting and risky I would like to see marketing studies about the likehood of persons repelled by video games and pad to try games Ms will push. It's quiet q bet :)

Hah ! No need to bet or get lucky.

I think despite the hastily put-together demoes, MS already has a good grasp of what Natal can and cannot do. After all, the researchers have been facing the same old tech problems for years. The rest are marketing fluff. I think they will focus on:
* Edutainment software
* Apps for women and housewives
Just because women and kids are economically important but neglected by the gaming companies. I remember Microsoft also put some money with educational institutions to explore the use of gaming in learning and teaching.

Some of these efforts help to bring down the barriers in Asia. I know many of my Asian friends don't get a console because they think it will distract their kids. Party mini-games are not the only way to the non-gaming crowd. e.g., Nintendo's software are wellness applications in their core.

liolio

18-Jun-2009, 23:15

I agree with real kid (really younf one) housewife but I would say women as a whole( form the little girls, pre ado, young adult). That why I think Ms should land a deal about the Sim (or develop a match) and having interact nicely with live social networking services.

archie4oz

20-Jun-2009, 06:59

In 2D sensing, the player has to leave the scene to capture and swap the background. Using the depth camera, they may be able to do it without the player leaving the scene. Would be cool if they can superimpose the player onto an existing music video.

Thats not entirely accurate. That really only applies if you're trying to blend the user into the scene behind the user.

patsu

22-Jun-2009, 18:34

That's true ! The "depth perception" can come in handy in 3D imaging though. I think devs can implement more sophisticated way to blend virtual objects with real-life video that way.

I also suspect EyePet uses the black magic card in more than one way. Besides tracking virtual toy placement, it also allows EyePet to know the correct perspective to present the critter in the full 3D (real) world extremely quickly.

patsu

26-Jun-2009, 09:19

Good details about MS Sidewinder Freestyle Pro, Wiimote, Wiimote+ and SIXAXIS stolen from GAF (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=16429048&postcount=2147) and PSU (http://www.psu.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-62921.html):

MS SideWinder Freestyle Pro is using ADXL202 [Accelerometer] which is a 2 axis 2G MEMS.
Inside Wii remote is ADXL330 whihc is a 3 axis 3G MEMS [Accelerometer]
Inside Wii nunchke is LIS3L02AE whihc is a 3 axis 2G MEMS [Accelerometer]
Inside PS3 sixaxis there are HAAM-325A 3 axis 3G MEMS [Accelerometer] by HDK, and a [ENC-03R] gyro sensor by Murata.

In comparison, Wiimote+ has "both a single-axis gyro (EPSON TOYOCOM X3500W) and a dual-axis gyro (InvenSense IDG-600)." for true 3-axis tilt sensing.

AzBat

02-Jul-2009, 01:35

Interesting way of using cameras + face recognition for FPS games(peeking, head tilting, zooming & ironsights)...

http://www.joystiq.com/2009/07/01/a-peek-and-head-tilt-into-the-future-head-tracking-in-fps-gam/

qWkpdtFZoBE

Tommy McClain

wco81

02-Aug-2009, 16:45

Iron Tiger

02-Aug-2009, 16:52

How much are these cameras and other equipment to enable these new motion-control schemes going to cost?

Will they take up a certain amount of the BOM cost budget of next-gen consoles which otherwise would go to RAM, CPU/GPU?

Because regardless of the Wii's success, I'm not sure that's a tradeoff worth making.
I don't know what it costs to make, but I bought my PS Eye for $40 new. I got my Live Vision cam for $20 new, bundled with You're in the Movies. For some reason, to buy it without a game, it costs $40.

patsu

02-Aug-2009, 16:56

If you buy PS Eye with Eye of Judgment, it's only about $10 more compared to the regular $59 game price:
http://www.amazon.com/Eye-Judgment-Playstation-3/dp/B000R3BLAI
It includes other props such as the cloth map and the camera stand.

PSEye in EyePet will probably be priced similarly (My guess !).

wco81

02-Aug-2009, 17:21

But don't these cameras require higher-definition than cameras currently out in the market?

And Sony's scheme requires a new controller to replace or complement the DS3?

I wouldn't mind using motion controls once in awhile. But most of the time, I'm going to be seated after a long day of work instead of flailing my limbs like a madman.

Shifty Geezer

02-Aug-2009, 17:23

Will they take up a certain amount of the BOM cost budget of next-gen consoles which otherwise would go to RAM, CPU/GPU?They'll take up the same amount of BOM cost as adding cameras to mobile phones and handhelds and laptops...

Well, 3D cameras will cost more. But the actual camera tech isn't expensive, and it'd be better to have good interfaces over just RAM and GPUs. An extreme example of your concerns - if the current consoles came with a basic 4 direction wired joystick and that's all, the savings on controllers could have gone to add RAM. the results may be nicer graphics on screen but they'd suck as consoles!

Edit : I ought to mention I used Motion Plus yesterday for the first time. It was pretty good, more what I was expecting from day one of Wii. I wasn't very good at getting into the 'lets pretend' mentailty, preferring to wield it as a controller rather than a sword/bow/club. Fine control was very evident in bow aiming. Big motions worked in golf, although I found an unrealistic approach without any follow through reduced my errors. Paddling the kayaks was prone to serious accuracy faults though, with the paddle failing to note a switch of sides. I had to synchronise myself with the game and stroke only when it was ready to change sides. It was a fairly good rendition of real kayaking though.

It was also very clear that Sony are right in that props are needed. The iconic game of this technology, lightsabre duals, demonstrates this. Two players cannot have a proper dual if the characters on screen block when in real life the player has passed his virtual blade through the space of the opponent. For this dualing, you'd need large foam blades that physically mirror the limits that you'd expect the game to follow.

I expect MS to add prop controllers ASAP. They may even have them in the making, but wanted a controller-free unveiling to present a unique face. If they go camera only, they'll encourage different and varied experiences but will have a poorer gamer experience IMO.

patsu

02-Aug-2009, 17:38

But don't these cameras require higher-definition than cameras currently out in the market?

Yes and no. The video part is independent from the photo resolution. While PS Eye is SD, it can capture video at 640x480 @ 60fps or 320 x 240 @ 120fps. The high framerate is required for tracking fast movement.

On top of that, add the 4 mic array.

That's < $10 using Eye of Judgment as a reference (Not very accurate but we have very few data points).

And Sony's scheme requires a new controller to replace or complement the DS3?

Both, depending on the game. Presumably, you can grow your controller collection via your game library. e.g., They can bundle the camera and let you buy the new controllers separately. I have a feeling eventually, the new controller may come in different shape and form depending on the game (e.g., Embed in Guitar Hero, that skateboard game, etc.).

Even if Sony chooses to bundle both PS Eye and the new controller into PS3, they won't affect the PS3 specs since it is already cast in stone. For PS4, it may be a matter of expectation if the 3 vendors manage to rope in more casual gamers.

I wouldn't mind using motion controls once in awhile. But most of the time, I'm going to be seated after a long day of work instead of flailing my limbs like a madman.

It depends on what kind of overall user experience they are after. At its current form, I'm inclined to agree since it's tiring to flail.

EDIT: I believe people will discover new/better ways to use the controller once it's out on the market. I wouldn't be surprised if we see totally new applications and business models around them. Some may even be industry specific (e.g., fashion). From this perspective, flailing may be a positive trait. It's called "exercise" or "workout"

patsu

04-Aug-2009, 23:54

http://www.mercurynews.com/topstories/ci_12969244?nclick_check=1&forced=true

Q What do you think about the effort by Sony and Microsoft to create their own natural motion controllers? To what extent are these new controllers from your rivals a threat to the Wii?
A I believe that any sort of changes to interface that allows people to get into games and enjoy games is a great trend.

One of the challenges is not just to create a natural controller, but how do you get it into the hands of the people? How do you do that cost effectively? And I think we've accomplished that.

We have sold millions of controllers at a good price point. And we have that delivery system successfully already implemented. For other companies starting from zero and trying to figure out how to get it out there at a decent price point is a big challenge.

Q I've learned that one should not be too skeptical of Nintendo, but many folks seem dubious about the new Vitality Sensor you are developing. How do you respond to that skepticism? And can you share anything about the types of games you are developing for it?

A Ideally we would have been able to talk about this in terms of the software implementation rather than just the sensor itself. I don't have any indication for you (of what we have in the works) other than to say that we have lots of very creative ideas.

patsu

18-Aug-2009, 21:18

Sony begins to bring motion control to PSP too. Besides Invizimals, PSP Eye of Judgment will be playable in Gamescom: http://www.joystiq.com/2009/08/18/eye-of-judgment-seen-on-psp/

SCEE announced Eye of Judgment will make its way to the PSP, and will be playable at GamesCom.

So the card recognition shouldn't take much CPU power.

patsu

18-Aug-2009, 23:14

Developer Update for Sony's motion sensing controller:

54366

obonicus

18-Aug-2009, 23:19

The titles make it look very eyetoyish.

Shifty Geezer

19-Aug-2009, 00:28

Those ones do, as they're clearly an EyeToy/Wii-esque party-type title. There were a couple of others though. Fingers crossed there's a hardcore 'killer app' to really demo the hardware.

Iron Tiger

19-Aug-2009, 04:28

I'm just happy to hear GT5 will have head tracking.

betan

19-Aug-2009, 04:31

For most people, head tracking won't be working anything like they expect.

patsu

19-Aug-2009, 06:45

I think it's only a novelty and minor enhancement. Button control is still useful for abrupt change in view. Have to try it out to see if I'll like it.

ShadowRunner

20-Aug-2009, 00:59

Shifty Geezer

20-Aug-2009, 08:49

The only sane implementation is to track when the head shifts (displacement/translocation, and not rotation)to look over hills, maybe around corners. These are natural responses that would benefit the game. The idea of turning your head to cause a change while still looking straight ahead would be awkward.

MrSpiggott

20-Aug-2009, 09:07

I hope the headtracking is more than just looking around, i want to see the 3d effect that uses head trackin put to good use. Probably wouldnt make much sense in a racing game where you are pretty much static but i would just lik to try it out in a good looking 3d world!

Head tracking, for a 3D effect, could be fantastic for a racing game. It should add a perception of depth and make cornering easier.

patsu

21-Aug-2009, 04:13

http://kotaku.com/5341760/invizimals-whistle-while-you-play

The game uses a form of augmented reality to locate creatures and then asks you to capture them with your PSP.

But here's the thing: Capturing them isn't always as easy as pushing a button. Sometimes you'll have to do other things, like sneak up behind one and yell at it loudly to scare it into your trap. Or, the case of this snake-like invizimal, whistle a specific tune to charm the creature to the trap.

Cute idea. I wonder if it allows some form of co-op for boss creatures. :)

Arwin

21-Aug-2009, 08:25

Prophecy2k

21-Aug-2009, 10:14

Eurogamer gets to test Natal. The full body sensing has terrible lag still (more like tenths of seconds than milliseconds!), but the racing bit seems to work fine.

http://www.eurogamer.net/videos/exclusive-eurogamer-plays-natal?size=large#justposted

Do we know if the hardware specs for the Natal unit are 100% finalised? Are these issues going to be ironed out in software?

Arwin

21-Aug-2009, 10:24

No idea, but it may even be that the camera they're using here doesn't even contain a chip yet, but it's still done in software, who knows?

Shifty Geezer

21-Aug-2009, 10:42

Eurogamer gets to test Natal. The full body sensing has terrible lag still (more like tenths of seconds than milliseconds!)...Yeah, I'd peg it at around a fifth of a second (observation, not measurement!), 200ms, from the lag shown when the girl plays. The swap-over was very effective though, and the filtering of noise clearly works. I think they'll need to solve the lag issue if they are to get hardcore gamers using Natal. I don't think anyone with game experience will be comfortable with that level of delay. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a software delay and the full hardware implementation improves on this.

betan

21-Aug-2009, 15:55

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8214385.stm

Heat maps

At the heart of the Natal system is an infrared sensor that detects a person, their movements and their distance from the sensor.

The device calibrates itself to the room's temperature and then looks for warm bodies around the room.

Once detected, it scans the person's shape and tries to match it against profiles it stores in its memory. If the person is new, it asks them to create a new profile.

If it finds a match, it loads the person's profile and begins to work out their position. If a person moves towards the sensor they become "hotter"; as they step back they get "colder".

:lol:

patsu

21-Aug-2009, 19:21

Hmm... the lag is rather noticeable right now. MS should be able to speed it up by throwing more resources at it though. They are going to make it usable for PC, console and other general markets. So the investment should be justifiable.

For a start, MS may look at applications that don't need superfast response. I think they have a lot of opportunity in classrooms and daycares. They do need to find a better demo. Flailing is not going to cut it by end of the year.

Silent_Buddha

21-Aug-2009, 23:13

I'm just happy to hear GT5 will have head tracking.

That right there is the best thing about GT5, and immediately puts it at the top of my next gen racers list. Assuming it's done well, which I expect it will be.

Regards,
SB

Danalys

22-Aug-2009, 14:40

Eurogamer gets to test Natal. The full body sensing has terrible lag still (more like tenths of seconds than milliseconds!), but the racing bit seems to work fine.

http://www.eurogamer.net/videos/exclusive-eurogamer-plays-natal?size=large#justposted

The stepping back and forth in Burnout to control speed is very unnatural. Goes against their everyone knows when you drive a car you grab a steering wheel philosophy. It also doesn't give you a "centerable" control.

Silent_Buddha

22-Aug-2009, 20:44

The stepping back and forth in Burnout to control speed is very unnatural. Goes against their everyone knows when you drive a car you grab a steering wheel philosophy. It also doesn't give you a "centerable" control.

It's to demo the responsiveness of the controls and ability (if a dev wished) to retrofit any game to use Natal since it's treated as a simple controller. Not as an indication of what it will be used in.

It's odd when comparing the Burnout demo to the Breakout demo. The input lag appears to be far less in the Burnout demo. Perhaps because there's less data being sent from Natal to X360? And with less data, less debugging software slowing things down?

Regards,
SB

Arwin

22-Aug-2009, 20:48

It's to demo the responsiveness of the controls and ability (if a dev wished) to retrofit any game to use Natal since it's treated as a simple controller. Not as an indication of what it will be used in.

It's odd when comparing the Burnout demo to the Breakout demo. The input lag appears to be far less in the Burnout demo. Perhaps because there's less data being sent from Natal to X360? And with less data, less debugging software slowing things down?

Regards,
SB

As the article suggests, the lag may be due to lousy programming on the Breakout demo side. I think actually that the Breakout demo runs on the Unreal Engine, where Epic has added Natal driver support already.

Brad Grenz

22-Aug-2009, 20:56

My suspicion has always been that since the Breakout game provides an on screen representation of your body performing your motions any lag will be very obvious in a way that it isn't in Burnout. And isn't the Breakout game doing image processing for background replacement to create your silhouette as well? That may contribute to the difference.

Shifty Geezer

22-Aug-2009, 21:27

My suspicion has always been that since the Breakout game provides an on screen representation of your body performing your motions any lag will be very obvious in a way that it isn't in Burnout.I expect that. The lag on small arm rotations affecting a subtle progressive steering won't be at all as noticeable. It's not as if when you turn a car wheel it veers off 90 degrees in an instant!
And isn't the Breakout game doing image processing for background replacement to create your silhouette as well?I believe that's an Avatar of you.

Grandmaster has his impressions (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digital-foundry-vs-project-natal-article). He mentions (if I read this right) the avatar is auto-generated for the player, which is pretty cool.
"You can see also that because the sensor is seeing everything in the room in 3D, the Avatar changes," Tsunoda says, referring to the translucent game character on-screen. "It was an Avatar that looked more like me but has changed to an Avatar that more closely fits how he [he being me] looks." It's simple, good fun, and I'm particularly struck at how well Natal judges the velocity of moving limbs.
Also I point people to this quote and refer to mine own observation above. :mrgreen:
Frame-counting from moving my arm down to the on-screen Avatar following suit appears to be close to 200ms (12 frames, a fifth of a second). Before we go ballistic on this, it's got to be put into context in a number of respects:

rabidrabbit

22-Aug-2009, 22:33

The Burnout game probably has some steering assist setting programmed in just for the Natal.

patsu

24-Aug-2009, 16:18

http://kotaku.com/5344119/sonys-interest-in-augmented-reality-gaming-expands

The biggest potential for the EyePet to become a money-maker, it seems, is through the introduction of downloadable clothing and toys, all of which will be sold through the Playstation Store, the developers said.

Actually, I prefer real pets like cats and dogs. If they could make a DLC for 'em, I'll be all over it. My favorite pet died years ago in my right arm while I raced towards the pet hospital. :( As it stands, EyePet's just a game for my kid.

When I asked if it was possible that the EyePet could come to the PSP as a sort of portable augmented reality space the developers said, "watch this space."

For invizimals...

There will be more than 125 of these creatures to capture, finding them will take a bit of exploration and perhaps a knowledge of the creatures. The developers told us that certain creatures like certain colors and times of the day. The creatures are captured in different ways, like by shouting at them, whistling a tune and causing an earthquake by shaking the PSP. There will be more than 30 ways to capture creatures, they said.

More interesting than I first thought. I think augmented reality as a party game is more impactful, especially for outdoor PSP games. Music (art performance) games is another area.

I went to a Yamaha shop yesterday to get a digital piano. Want to try Guitar Hero 4 with it. The built-in Yamaha music software already allows me to play with an orchestra by downloading scores from the Internet directly. My wife and kid were elated as they stumbled through a Beethoven with a full-sounding and *very patient* orchestra. The result still sounded great (although out of beat). :)

Too bad there is no wireless MIDI connection (to pipe date into the PS3), or integration between these instruments and PS3 so that I can see or participate in others' performance over the net.

Scott_Arm

24-Aug-2009, 16:30

I expect that. The lag on small arm rotations affecting a subtle progressive steering won't be at all as noticeable. It's not as if when you turn a car wheel it veers off 90 degrees in an instant!
I believe that's an Avatar of you.

Grandmaster has his impressions (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digital-foundry-vs-project-natal-article). He mentions (if I read this right) the avatar is auto-generated for the player, which is pretty cool.

Also I point people to this quote and refer to mine own observation above. :mrgreen:

I find it interesting when he mentions lag in Halo3, GTA4 and Killzone2 being close to Natal. The lag in Natal is more obvious, because you can easily see the delay in motion between the person and the avatar. It's harder with button presses and slight adjustments to the analog stick. Having lag in a game like that Breakout Demo would weird, and I think it would be more harmful than in a game like Halo or Killzone. That seems kind of backwards, because Halo and Killzone are "hardcore" shooters, but I think the fine motor skills you use don't have as much natural lag to compound the problem, if that makes any sense. In a game like Natal, you actually have to move your entire arm to do something, so if you add 200ms of lag on top of that, from the type you start to react, to when it actually happens on screen will be strange. Here's hoping that this can improve via software/hardware before release.

grandmaster

25-Aug-2009, 08:28

I think the thing to point out is that it *might* be similar. Latency measurement was one of the key things I wanted to test in my Natal demo (and I really was fortunate that we were allowed to film the session as few people were) but as I stated in the piece, this was only a test of the Breakout demo and therefore only an indication of its general performance, not a definitive analysis. For that, we would need to perform like-for-like testing.

Burnout might appear more responsive, but it may well be the case that it is only scanning a reduced skeleton - hands and feet - versus the full body scan of the Breakout demo. Right now we don't really know. I have to admit that both myself and Tom Bramwell (Eurogamer editor) found the Burnout demo to be cool from a technical perspective, but a bit unsatisfying to actually play - as I stated in the feature, the one thing that Natal can't engineer around is the fact that moving your full body about incurs more "latency" simply through the fact that moving your body and your limbs takes longer than moving your fingers! In this respect I am not sure choosing a 60fps twitch game would've been the smartest move when something like Forza 2/3 or even a 30fps game like Project Gotham 4 would've been more suited to the control scheme.

But one other thing I really want to point out is that Natal is absolutely wonderful. When you see the tech screen with all the skeletons in play, the IR scan, etc, I mean... the technology here is absolutely unbelievable. It's effectively full body motion capture in a consumer-level piece of kit and it works. The implications of this tech in the hands of people with the imagination to make the most of it are going to be staggering.

Arwin

25-Aug-2009, 08:31

Indeed. It could be pretty awesome to be able to record animations for your XNA game, for instance.

grandmaster

25-Aug-2009, 08:40

A bit off topic, but another latency test I have some video of is Forza 3 in dashboard view being played with the steering wheel. I've not reviewed the clips yet but this is interesting in that the human hands and the on-screen hands are in plain view on the clip. Again, I could spot obvious latency while doing the filming and yet the kids playing the game weren't having any problems with it.

I should be getting my Xbox 360 controller latency board in early next week by the way, as made by Ben Heckendorn and as used by Infinity Ward, so I can finally get on with the latency testing feature I've been promising/threatening for so long... but I strongly suspect that the overall conclusion of this feature will be that we've been conditioned to latency so strongly that there is quite an open window of time that developers have to play with.

Arwin

25-Aug-2009, 08:52

That sounds great, really looking forward to that feature. And absolutely, people can get used to a fair amount of latency ... you should try to measure how much latency most cars have. ;) Also with racing games you have to think a considerable amount ahead already - if you see a slow corner running, you may have to brake several seconds in advance. What's 200ms of lag in that context?

However, I do think you'll find that a lot of popular games have reduced that lag significanly, and it may well be one of those secret ingredients that makes a game popular, just like most people aren't aware of intonation in language, but it still greatly affects their interpretation.

patsu

25-Aug-2009, 09:07

Nintendo filed a patent for a Wiimote American Football controller:
http://www.siliconera.com/2009/08/24/nintendo-developing-a-squishy-football-controller/

A recently filed patent application by Howard Cheng, Vice President of Research and Development at Nintendo of America, reveals a plan for a soft football controller for use with the Wii and the remote.

Throwing – Players firmly strap their hands to the ball and make a throwing motion. The pitch angle and force of the throw determines the trajectory arc of the throw. Side to side motion determines the yaw angle. Pressing buttons on the Wii remote can adjust other options.

Running – The football controller sense body motion, shifting left and right to dodge tacklers and even jumping motions by raising the ball. Running speed is determined by players making a jogging motion.

Shifty Geezer

25-Aug-2009, 09:37

Burnout might appear more responsive, but it may well be the case that it is only scanning a reduced skeleton - hands and feet - versus the full body scan of the Breakout demo.I can't see that making a difference. That would suggest it's processing time causing latency, but if that were true, the processing time would overrun frames constantly, and the responsiveness who go down the toilet. Especially when we're comparing to a single player at the moment. When it has to deal wtih multiplayer, the processing requirement would be even greater, and the low input exaggerated.

I guess it could be an issue if the processing is happening on a PC perhaps. But then that doesn't bode well for the custom chip. If a meaty PC can't handle full motion capture at 30 fps, they'd need a monster processor in Natal!

What other cause could there be for an information delay? Network issues seems unlikely. Big buffers? USB is fast enough to deliver 12 MBs in 1/5th second, so if the lag is caused by that, we're looking at 12 MBs of data from Natal! Perhaps at this stage there is lots of data for debugging, and the final can just send image and skeleton info?

grandmaster

25-Aug-2009, 10:06

patsu

25-Aug-2009, 10:28

I wouldn't worry too much about lag. In the worst case, they can add custom controllers (e.g., driving wheel). Users will need them for core gaming anyway for extended action and triggers. Once there are custom controllers, they can simplify the tracking.

In the mean time, we can't really judge the "hands free" performance using the current PC setup. It's too early (and probably pointless) since the final solution will be hardware based. OTOH, the final solution needs to fit into a smaller budget and casing (Have to fight overheating issue !).

That said, it is much more critical for them to work on the gaming concepts. Without them, the technology may be "useless".

Arwin

25-Aug-2009, 10:50

Well what is interesting is that there was a PC present at the demo as well as the 360. Burnout was run by double-clicking on a Burnout icon on the PC desktop. The tech screen with the RGB camera feed and the IR image was also PC based.

Yeah, that's what I guessed. Now Shifty, don't make too much of the performance of a PC unit. A custom chip can be much better at this particular work. In theory a single SPE type core could do a better job at this than an 8 core Intel processor, never mind that it's not at all clear whether their debug software even uses more than one core at a time for the crucial parts. Or maybe they are already using a programmable chip in the processor, but it's running in debug mode. Hard to say at this point. All I know is if they are targeting fall 2010, then they would have obvious reasons for waiting that long.

NeoTechni

25-Aug-2009, 13:45

For Sony to do the opposite, to track full body movements in 3D is essentially impossible with their current design.

and yet theyve showed it doing that already

I have not seen this "severe lag" you're talking about. Sources?

his source is every single video
there is almost a full second of lag
and it loses track of the user at least once a video

PS3MC requires that you hold their controller for it to figure out positional data. Is this accurate?
down to the sub pixel according to every video
though natal isnt accurate at all which is why psmc is shown painting with brushes and natal is shown throwing paint at a wall

urther, it seems like Natal tracks multiple limbs, so to do the same on PS3MC, wouldn't you need to hold two controllers, and have two attached to your legs?no since pseye can do that

Shifty Geezer

25-Aug-2009, 13:56

and yet theyve showed it doing that alreadyFull body, 3D tracking? you'll have to link to that because if they've shown it, I don't remember seing it.

there is almost a full second of lag
and it loses track of the user at least once a videoIt's a fifth of a second, nothing like a whole second, and the more recent demo's haven't shown any tracking faults that I've heard about.

I don't think you're impressions of Natal are at all fair. It has some disadvantages versus PS3MC, but PS3MC certainly can't do anything and everything Natal can do either. Maybe you should read this whole thread to catch up on what's been discussed so far to get up to speed?

patsu

28-Aug-2009, 20:44

Arwin

28-Aug-2009, 21:20

Behind the scene with Richard Marks:
http://blog.us.playstation.com/2009/08/28/exclusive-behind-the-scenes-with-scea-research-development-part-1/

No new info, but he explained some of the rationales behind the design.

EDIT:
Oh, rumble confirmed @ 7:10

Well, and something I noticed in the gamescon trailer, the analog stick seems to be gone and instead replaced by a large pressure sensitive button. He stresses that they developed this to be fairly precise as to give you a sense like picking up objects and letting them go. It's very interesting and clever.

What I also saw in the trailer and what I expect them to discuss in the next part, is among others the features of the glowing ball. I've seen it burn really bright as well as take various colors. All in all this device is starting to look really good.

The final thing I think I got from this is that the precision may not be extreme in the sense that the gyro is approximate, and that the sub-pixel precision relates to the 60fps 640x480 image you're getting from the PS Eye. It's still very/plenty precise however, as the demo shows. They basically show them fooling around with the demos that we've already seen, but now with two people doing it at the same time.

The combination of the pressure button and the rumble is very good though. Me like.

And they look on track. From what I'm seeing I'm confident they'll make Spring.

Shifty Geezer

28-Aug-2009, 21:57

The bricks demo had me immediately thinking about LBP and opening up creation in that. Could be an ideal application.

archangelmorph

28-Aug-2009, 22:38

Got a prototype wand in the office recently.. looking forward to trying it out as soon as we can get a devkit setup for it..

patsu

29-Aug-2009, 06:40

If you can talk, does the prototype have an analog stick ?

Arwin

29-Aug-2009, 08:10

From what I've seen, I'm thinking the new pressure button has replaced it. But this button may be able to sense direction, not sure. We'll find out sooon.

Brad Grenz

29-Aug-2009, 08:52

The most recent video talks about a pressure sensitive trigger, but that's not where you'd put a stick. They also mention "buttons" so I'm assuming that means face buttons on top with a trigger on the bottom. Perhaps the face buttons will double as something like a directional pad.

Quaz51

29-Aug-2009, 10:08

The bricks demo had me immediately thinking about LBP and opening up creation in that. Could be an ideal application.

and with stereoscopic display for better perception of distance when manipulate object with wand :)

Shifty Geezer

29-Aug-2009, 10:09

Given LBPs awesome lighting, 3D and natural interaction would be truly mindbogglingly good.

patsu

29-Aug-2009, 16:49

Yes ! LittleBigPlanet plus its ability for people to create motion sensing mini-games should be top of the priority.

whome0

29-Aug-2009, 18:07

Was it 2010 spring they wanted to bring PS3Wand games on market?
I believe we see Wii ports and party games in a first wave. EA Tiger Woods golf game definitely gets PS3Wand support but must wait for next year version.

PS3Wand lit bulp should work pretty well in dark rooms as well, most(?) games don't need a bluescreen keying.

Asher

29-Aug-2009, 18:19

Yes ! LittleBigPlanet plus its ability for people to create motion sensing mini-games should be top of the priority.

As awesome as LBP was, its sales were not. Sony's priority should be on making a new killer-app game, a la Wii Sports, not retrofitting old games that didn't meet sales expectations with the control scheme.

Toaddio

29-Aug-2009, 19:34

As awesome as LBP was, its sales were not. Sony's priority should be on making a new killer-app game, a la Wii Sports, not retrofitting old games that didn't meet sales expectations with the control scheme.

If you could 'retrofit' an old game and make it a $20 download, it might be worth the effort. Perhaps neuter it enough so the cheap version is not playable with a regular controller.

I also think Sony should court every decent third party Wii game developer that didn't have successful sales on the Wii and encourage them to migrate their games to the PS3. If sales were poor on the Wii and more viable on the PS3, then there might be a steady migration or at least viable dual platform development.

Silent_Buddha

29-Aug-2009, 23:04

I also think Sony should court every decent third party Wii game developer that didn't have successful sales on the Wii and encourage them to migrate their games to the PS3. If sales were poor on the Wii and more viable on the PS3, then there might be a steady migration or at least viable dual platform development.

That might be a significant uphill battle unless Sony throws in some financial incentives.

Considering the install base is a fraction of Wii's and doesn't currently have a reputation of being casual friendly. Developer's I would imagine would think they'd have even less chance of success on PS3 as they had on Wii.

Although some of the more hardcore/adult games like Mad World might see a dev like Sega taking a chance porting.

Add to that the PS3 is going to require more resources even for a port probably than just developing another native Wii app.

Regards,
SB

patsu

30-Aug-2009, 07:13

As awesome as LBP was, its sales were not. Sony's priority should be on making a new killer-app game, a la Wii Sports, not retrofitting old games that didn't meet sales expectations with the control scheme.

New motion sensing games will naturally be planned.

However, user generated motion sensing games will help to foster new ideas and rally support around the concept. It should be more convincing than one-direction marketing campaigns. In addition to paying for the campaigns, Sony and MM have a chance to earn some money via the extension or even new LBP apps.

As for LBP not selling to expectations, I don't think it's a failure either. Word of mouth remains strong. It's a new franchise and a new concept. Some dev mentioned that LBP has long legs and good DLC response. I have encountered many non-gamers and 360 gamers who are curious about the game. Kids who played it want to know what it's called (despite it's difficulty). :) There should be quite a few mileage in the franchise.

Now that PS3 price has dropped. More people will get to try it out.

That might be a significant uphill battle unless Sony throws in some financial incentives.

Considering the install base is a fraction of Wii's and doesn't currently have a reputation of being casual friendly. Developer's I would imagine would think they'd have even less chance of success on PS3 as they had on Wii.

Although some of the more hardcore/adult games like Mad World might see a dev like Sega taking a chance porting.

Add to that the PS3 is going to require more resources even for a port probably than just developing another native Wii app.

They will do it because they know they can sell to all 3 vendors with similar concept. The additional investment helps them to prepare for Wii HD too.

Shifty Geezer

30-Aug-2009, 10:16

New motion sensing games will naturally be planned.Perhaps equally important in getting it used and devs willing to adopt it, retrofitting existing games to add new experiences should be a cheap yet effective motion-gaming offering. LBP provides a near perfect engine for 3D object manipulation in an existing game where creation is key. That fits perfectly with the motion controller and existing demos, and would make the creation in LBP much more accesible where at the moment it can be a bit awkward.

TV ads have shown LBP's results, but not the effort to create them. I'm sure TV ads showing people drawing levels intuitively would do a good job of showing PS3's motion control, and as part of an overall package, would be a cheap yet worthwhile target to pursue.

Quaz51

30-Aug-2009, 11:38

for LBP, just use wand for draw 2D shape and extrude is already a good improve

JPT

30-Aug-2009, 11:49

As awesome as LBP was, its sales were not. Sony's priority should be on making a new killer-app game, a la Wii Sports, not retrofitting old games that didn't meet sales expectations with the control scheme.

I am always intrigued by comments about games not having enough sales.

I believe LBP has sold 2.5M copies, why is that bad? Especially since you need no where close to that to qualify for a Platinum re-release.

And if we remove the Halo, Gears of Wars, MGS, COD etc how many titles do actually get that kind of numbers?

patsu

30-Aug-2009, 12:03

Ha ha, I supposed some people have very high expectation of the title. Before LBP was launched, I have seen people saying that user generated content won't work after the initial launch period. I myself felt that LBP momentum may not sustain beyond a year if MM doesn't follow up with simpler tools, and easier levels.

Based on forum thread activities, it seems fine so far. It's not a problem finding people to co-op online too. I still think MM stands to gain more if they simplify LBP levels further. Fortunately, new players are coming in due to strong word of mouth, and the title's inherent sexiness.

archangelmorph

30-Aug-2009, 16:38

If you can talk, does the prototype have an analog stick ?

Dunno how much I'm officially allowed to say but, bearing in mind that it's still a prototype so the exact nature of the final retail device may very well change considerably between now and then, it was pretty much exactly the same as the one in the Sony R&D video from their blog site..

Sony definitely seem to have big plans for the peripheral as far as I'm aware and so it'll be interesting to see what we & other studios decide to do with it on the software side..

ShadowRunner

30-Aug-2009, 17:53

Dunno how much I'm officially allowed to say but, bearing in mind that it's still a prototype so the exact nature of the final retail device may very well change considerably between now and then, it was pretty much exactly the same as the one in the Sony R&D video from their blog site..

Sony definitely seem to have big plans for the peripheral as far as I'm aware and so it'll be interesting to see what we & other studios decide to do with it on the software side..

Are you able to comment on wether it is likely to have an analogue stick or not?

Shifty Geezer

30-Aug-2009, 18:13

At this point he doesn't know. It's still a WIP and subject to change., such is the nature of prototypes.

I quite like the idea of something less prominent than a full thumbstick. A pressure sensitive thumb-pad thing would work well to record grip strength (in cahoots with an analogue trigger), giving more options.

ShadowRunner

30-Aug-2009, 18:24

Asher

30-Aug-2009, 18:27

I am always intrigued by comments about games not having enough sales.

I believe LBP has sold 2.5M copies, why is that bad? Especially since you need no where close to that to qualify for a Platinum re-release.

And if we remove the Halo, Gears of Wars, MGS, COD etc how many titles do actually get that kind of numbers?
I didn't know LBP was up to 2.5M. According to VGChartz it looks like it has 2.35m, which is much higher than I thought given its peak monthly NPD charting was like 130k. It looks like it got some legs due to word of mouth.

Still, there are 22 Xbox 360 games alone with more sales than that. Including Kung Fu Panda. There's only 10 PS3 games that've sold more, so I guess it's not too bad.

Iron Tiger

30-Aug-2009, 20:08

As long as there is something there that enables directional input i dont care what it is. My fear is that this wont be the case. I wish they would just go the whole hog and just copy nintendos nunchuck, maybe making it wireless.I think Nintendo's idea was ingenious, putting a precision controller in your dominant hand and traditional analog controller in your other hand. The sheer brilliance of that didn't fully hit me until I tried out SplitFish's FragFX 2 at E3. Having that analog "fragchuk" to go with the mouse was just so much better than using a keyboard. I really don't understand why so many company's try to make supplimentary controllers for FPS games that have a digital keyboard-style layout when it's so much more comfortable and freeing to use an analog nunchuk.

thatdude90210

30-Aug-2009, 20:25

I think Nintendo's idea was ingenious, putting a precision controller in your dominant hand and traditional analog controller in your other hand. The sheer brilliance of that didn't fully hit me until I tried out SplitFish's FragFX 2 at E3. Having that analog "fragchuk" to go with the mouse was just so much better than using a keyboard. I really don't understand why so many company's try to make supplimentary controllers for FPS games that have a digital keyboard-style layout when it's so much more comfortable and freeing to use an analog nunchuk.
The keyboard layout does offer a few more buttons for weapons selection and other functions that are normal to FPS games.

But yeah, aiming with one hand and moving with nunchuk analog stick is awesome. That's why after playing Wii RE4, I didn't even think about getting RE5 for the 360.

patsu

30-Aug-2009, 22:54

Still, there are 22 Xbox 360 games alone with more sales than that. Including Kung Fu Panda. There's only 10 PS3 games that've sold more, so I guess it's not too bad.

Not sure it's relevant to compare those 22 Xbox 360 games with LBP. Not all of them are released at the same time as LBP. Remember 360 launched one year earlier, it had more time to achieve higher sales number. What's more, the games are targeting different audience. It's safe to say LBP is doing well. We have not even counted the DLC contribution yet.

As long as there is something there that enables directional input i dont care what it is. My fear is that this wont be the case. I wish they would just go the whole hog and just copy nintendos nunchuck, maybe making it wireless.

I think Nintendo's idea was ingenious, putting a precision controller in your dominant hand and traditional analog controller in your other hand. The sheer brilliance of that didn't fully hit me until I tried out SplitFish's FragFX 2 at E3. Having that analog "fragchuk" to go with the mouse was just so much better than using a keyboard. I really don't understand why so many company's try to make supplimentary controllers for FPS games that have a digital keyboard-style layout when it's so much more comfortable and freeing to use an analog nunchuk.

Yes, I am curious what they intend to do with the very important thumb stick.

The original Wiimote does not have a gyro, so the analog stick is even more crucial. The PSMC controller has a built-in gyro. Perhaps Sony feels that the twist of the wrist may be able to substitute the analog stick. I have not given it enough thought to poke hole in that line of thinking.

archangelmorph

01-Sep-2009, 09:56

Are you able to comment on wether it is likely to have an analogue stick or not?

Well I can't really say..

It's Sony's decision either way and I'm sure we'll know one way or another..

If not though I'd speculate that they may go the Wii direction w/ respect to analogue stick support, of which I'm sure they're already considering it..

patsu

01-Sep-2009, 19:09

I think the analog stick may be needed for core gamers.

It may be possible to replace the analog stick with a combination of wrist twisting and head movement, but I think using analog stick is like moving eye-balls without turning your head. The behaviour's etched into core gamers. May be awkward to force them to use other body parts when twiddling their thumb suffice.

For casuals, I think head tracking and wrist movement may be fine.

_phil_

01-Sep-2009, 20:06

Well I can't really say..

It's Sony's decision either way and I'm sure we'll know one way or another..

If not though I'd speculate that they may go the Wii direction w/ respect to analogue stick support, of which I'm sure they're already considering it..

hmm.. ,i agree 100% :grin:

archangelmorph

02-Sep-2009, 10:26

hmm.. ,i agree 100% :grin:

You know something too dont u phil?

:grin:

Arwin

02-Sep-2009, 10:34

I'm willing to bet that with a big TGS motion controller presentation coming up, the truth is out there, and several developers have prototypes and a means to give feedback to Sony, so I believe you guys. ;)

patsu

03-Sep-2009, 01:23

http://gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=25108
...explains photo recognition and facial recognition.

Photo matching:

In the demonstration, they showed a close-up photo of a red flower in an open field. Using a convolution filter, they showed how an image can be softened (low-pass), sharpened (high-pass) or detect edges (sobel/laplacian) and a pyramid filter was also shown to demonstrate noise reduction.

Next, they showed three images and ran a comparison match to see which two photos were identical. If they match, the screen would essentially all turn black giving a value of 0. Now this is all just talking about still images. All of the above are utilized in tracking movement, a girl stood in front of the Playstation Eye moving her hands.

...

Facial recognition:

As for facial recognition, the technology may be familiar to many as it has now become a feature in most digital cameras. The process of facial recognition can be divided into four steps. The first, which also takes the most amount of processing time, is face detection. A detection box of at least 20x20 pixel would sweep across the entire space.

... [More about the 4 steps in the article]...

SPU implementation:
With libface, one or more SPU can be used in face processing. For example, setting the parameter to 47 pixels would take 58 milliseconds with one SPU. With multiple SPUs, the process can be sped up and reduced to 15 milliseconds.

For gaming:

Some applications such as avatar-linked facial recognition and pattern recognition were briefly shown. With the former, it would find the alignment of each user's face, so if the user smiles, the avatar on screen will also smile likewise.

The latter is used in mini-games such as "Smile Competition". Users would smile in front of the camera and whoever scores higher wins the match. Although the application focuses on facial recognition, this can also be used in detecting specific objects through higher level detection algorithms.

patsu

08-Sep-2009, 16:23

Another 2 CEDEC videos from Engadget:
http://www.engadget.com/2009/09/08/video-high-res-image-enlargement-tech-for-ps3-and-psp-takes-ext/

Voice recognition:
5TaUsSy-f0Y

GigaPan:
5LIdPOZGoDE

Don't find GigaPan useful for gaming. Perhaps Sony can use it for "Life with Playstation". Really wish Sony would just rename it to "Playstation Earth" (coz that's what it is >_<).

Crono

08-Sep-2009, 17:32

Motion Controller Update Part II: Interview with R&D – The Sequel

http://blog.us.playstation.com/2009/09/motion-controller-update-part-ii-interview-with-rd-%E2%80%93-the-sequel/

_phil_

08-Sep-2009, 20:27

You know something too dont u phil?

:grin:

sorry ,late ,but it seems so :) .

E2K

08-Sep-2009, 21:57

Motion Controller Update Part II: Interview with R&D – The Sequel

http://blog.us.playstation.com/2009/09/motion-controller-update-part-ii-interview-with-rd-%E2%80%93-the-sequel/

great video!

They are really honest with the technology, no scripted 'behind the curtain' Peter Molyneux Natal fakery.
I expect a lot from the PSeye technology, I have seen headtracking demos which work with only the camera. To use this in a game would be awesome. Also it has a directional microphone array, so the players can identify themselves by waving their hand while saying their name: the system will know whose motions to track.
This can be combined with the regular controller for added gameplay.
Or they can go 'all wii' and make games like KZ2 but with metroids' control scheme :cool:
For Natal I don't see much potential, honestly.
Full body movement imo will always be a gimmick. I cannot imagine it replacing the controller for (all) popular genres, so new gimmick-type games will be where it's aimed at.
The peter molyneux 'realtime demo' ( :lol: :roll: ) is an example of that.
"kick away the ball" is another example. Not to mention "make a painting".

patsu

08-Sep-2009, 22:36

Err.... Natal has very good potential in many markets. It's just more difficult to map its control scheme to traditional video games. I have seen people lie on their bed/couch playing games for hours. It's more a mind stimulation (and thumb twiddling) entertainment, as opposed to full body exercises.

That's why I think Natal's 3D imaging is more interesting/compatible for core gaming. The rest (voice recognition, full body motion) have been done by Wii and PS Eye to varying degree of success. It's much harder to tell the differences between Natal and those games.

Nesh

08-Sep-2009, 23:15

It looks like some of you guys got Sony prototypes. But what I find very strange is that none here seems to talk about Natal.

And I am pretty sure some of you DO have versions of Natal to work on. Are you hiding something????

patsu

08-Sep-2009, 23:28

I spoke to an nVidia manager over the Labor Day weekend. He got to try an early prototype too. Same old feedback we heard before. It's very accurate.

EDIT: Kotaku mentioned a possible use for the GigaPan technology: The Playstation Store. I think it'd be a useful application there without resoughting to scroll bars. But the zooming has to be fast.

Besides "Life with Playstation", the other possible application is Qore (Game and Blu-ray release schedules), and Playstation Home (Calendar of user-organized events).

Iron Tiger

09-Sep-2009, 00:47

EDIT: Kotaku mentioned a possible use for the GigaPan technology: The Playstation Store. I think it'd be a useful application there without resoughting to scroll bars. But the zooming has to be fast.

Besides "Life with Playstation", the other possible application is Qore (Game and Blu-ray release schedules), and Playstation Home (Calendar of user-organized events).Imagine a web browser based on that. As you're focusing on an area, it's buffering the linked site, and loading mip mapped images of it as you zoom in. It would require a radical change in content storage and loading, but it'd be a much more interesting and fluid method of navigating the net. It could be interesting to rotate to a side view of your browsing tree and follow the path you've branched on.

E2K

10-Sep-2009, 12:42

Oh shit, sony is at it again :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOtPVof2K94&hd=1

obonicus

10-Sep-2009, 13:23

Man, I want a duck bill now (or is it a goose?)

Arwin

10-Sep-2009, 13:26

Heh, very good!

EDIT: by the way, together with two motion controllers, you've got quite a lot to work with as a developer. :D

Shifty Geezer

10-Sep-2009, 15:58

The fozzy logic bars showed how it's 'seeing' the person. I wonder how this compares with MS's face recognition and how they use that identify users?

patsu

10-Sep-2009, 16:47

Oh shit, sony is at it again :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOtPVof2K94&hd=1

LOL. The lag is there if the user moves too fast, but it's funny as hell.
Zis will revolutionize the phone sex and webcam pr0n industry. No wonder the Vivid Interactive boss was hitting on Sony the other day. :twisted:

Does a very negative Smile score means the user is angry ?

obonicus

10-Sep-2009, 19:35

I like that the woman is like -3 on the nonBaby scale.

Brad Grenz

11-Sep-2009, 09:39

The furries will be so pleased!

patsu

14-Sep-2009, 16:50

E2K

15-Sep-2009, 18:48

They also showed the Physics Effects SDK in CEDEC 2009:

5xk6RM_YsM0

Develop has an article on it:
http://www.develop-online.net/news/32826/VIDEO-Sonys-PS3-optimised-physics-SDK
(Titanio posted the link on GAF)

Is this the Bullet Physics Library that was ported to Cell ?

Although this has nothing to do with controllers, it is showing how PS3 will move forward as a platform. These calculations are basically 'for free', so even if the graphics will not improve that much (wait till you see the real GT5 or Uncharted 2), the physics will.

ShadowRunner

15-Sep-2009, 19:08

Part 3 of the PSMC videos should be up sometime today i think...

patsu

15-Sep-2009, 19:18

Although this has nothing to do with controllers, it is showing how PS3 will move forward as a platform. These calculations are basically 'for free', so even if the graphics will not improve that much (wait till you see the real GT5 or Uncharted 2), the physics will.

I posted it here for 2 reasons:
* It's part of the CEDEC 2009 show (where we took the face tracking and voice recognition videos from)
* It is related to the new controller scheme because augmented reality usually requires some form of physics simulation (e.g., for manipulating virtual objects that represent the real world).

cbarcus

15-Sep-2009, 19:29

In order to have some idea of the actual cost involved in the Natal accessory, it is necessary to estimate the computational requirements of 3D full body motion capture. So far I've only heard guesses that they are substantial (requires a modern CPU), and I read somewhere (some academic paper) that facial recognition at around 24 fps with the PSEye was not trivial. Does anyone at Beyond3D have a better sense of what is involved here?

My guess is that the sensor data (audio & video) should be able to fit within the bandwidth limitations of USB 3.0 (~400 MiB/sec), if at some point Natal's sensors are separated from the processing package, or if Sony wants to release a PSEye2 with multiple higher resolution sensors.

patsu

15-Sep-2009, 19:46

http://www.vg247.com/2009/09/15/moore-360-and-ps3-grand-slam-tennis-will-be-released-with-motion-tech/

EA Sports is still planning on releasing 360 and PS3 versions of Grand Slam Tennis, division boss Peter Moore’s told VG247, but only when motion controllers have launched for both systems.

Moore delayed the games in August following the release of a MotionPlus-compatible Wii version.“You will do on the new motion technologies,” Moore said when asked if we’ll see the 360 and PS3 SKUs actually make it to market.“One thing that becamse glaringly obvious is that once you started playing Wii MotionPlus tennis and then you go back to [traditional controllers].”

Moore added that MotionPlus had “ruined” tennis games on standard controllers for him, but reiterated that the success of EA Sports Active had been an equal part of the decision to slip.

EDIT: Another recent augmented reality app. This is a simpler example compared to Toshiba's Magic Mirror:

YIAtRgk2dkc

patsu

16-Sep-2009, 23:06

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3176056

1UP: Do you think Japanese developers will embrace Natal more or less than Western developers?

JT: I haven't heard much about how Western developers have reacted to Natal so I can't really talk about that, but I've heard a lot of people in the industry in Japan respond to it like it's a new problem that they have: "How are we going to develop games for this? What are we supposed to do with this now?" I can say that the developers in our offices back in Osaka have been very receptive to Natal and are looking forward to hopefully coming up with some good ideas for it.

1UP: What about Sony's motion control device?
JT: Well just being from Capcom, I can tell you that we have a lot of good ideas on how to make use of that technology and we're looking forward to putting them into practice. However, speaking to other developers in Japan, I've heard a few of them say they were delighted by the Sony motion controller because they can just port over their Wii titles to the PS3.

holsty101

17-Sep-2009, 02:10

1UP: Why do you think we see fewer downloadable games from Japanese developers than U.S. developers?

JT: I think one of the main reasons is the number of users who have consoles but are also connected to the Internet is very, very low in Japan compared to North America and Europe. If you're not connected you can't download those games.

Is that correct? I was always under the impression that Japan had the better infrastructure, which in my mind leads to more people online. I guess there are many factors I'm unaware of, I still find it surprising though.

Arwin

17-Sep-2009, 09:39

Is that correct? I was always under the impression that Japan had the better infrastructure, which in my mind leads to more people online. I guess there are many factors I'm unaware of, I still find it surprising though.

In Japan everyone is connected through their mobile phone. This is their primary method of connecting to the realm of online. That's what makes for the strange discrepancy. Hopefully they fix this sometime ... :p

JPT

17-Sep-2009, 11:14

Is that correct? I was always under the impression that Japan had the better infrastructure, which in my mind leads to more people online. I guess there are many factors I'm unaware of, I still find it surprising though.

According to Akamai the avg broadband connection speed in Japan is 8 mpbs, the world average is about 1.7 mpbs, the USA is 4.2 mpbs. South Korea is #1 with 11 mpbs, Japan is #2.

http://www.akamai.com/stateoftheinternet/

Arwin

17-Sep-2009, 12:38

According to Akamai the avg broadband connection speed in Japan is 8 mpbs, the world average is about 1.7 mpbs, the USA is 4.2 mpbs. South Korea is #1 with 11 mpbs, Japan is #2.

http://www.akamai.com/stateoftheinternet/

I also just read that Japan has the second highest average internet speeds, but higher than Akamai figures - these figures from end of August 2009 (very recent in other words) quote 15,8 Mb for Japan. Only Korea is higher, at 20,4 Mb. The Netherlands is 9th, the U.S. 28th (!).

But how many have internet in the home, vs access to the internet in general (i.e. including phones)?

JPT

17-Sep-2009, 14:46

I also just read that Japan has the second highest average internet speeds, but higher than Akamai figures - these figures from end of August 2009 (very recent in other words) quote 15,8 Mb for Japan. Only Korea is higher, at 20,4 Mb. The Netherlands is 9th, the U.S. 28th (!).

But how many have internet in the home, vs access to the internet in general (i.e. including phones)?

I'd guess the difference is that its based on d/l speeds from Akamai servers.

Anyway its always a guesstimate, my former employer has done a lot of VDSL business in Japan. And are now doing quite well with PON over there.

I assume there are some goverment statistic burea or FCC type of thing in Japan also, that got the figures.

But I assume that most japanese home are quite small, so staying home and playing might be less attractive than being out with a group of friends that all got mobile phones for fun and games.

Silent_Buddha

17-Sep-2009, 20:35

Japan has a very good internet infrastructure, however... For example, with contract you can get 100 Mbps FTTH for around 60 USD a month. Well at least last winter you could. Not sure what the prices are now.

Japan doesn't have very many internet users per capita compared to all other high tech countries. However, that's been going up over the past few years.

On the flipside however, they probably have significantly more people connected online by phone per capita than any other country.

Japan telco's also greatly limit transmission speeds of any connection leaving the country.

Regards,
SB

wco81

17-Sep-2009, 22:22

Maybe they're referring to few Japanese gamers bothering to connect their consoles to the Internet, not Internet access in general.

Silent_Buddha

17-Sep-2009, 23:18

No, it's still rare to find a Japanese person connected to the internet. Heck, it's somewhat rare just finding a Japanese person with a computer, although again, that's been going up a bit the past few years compared to say the early 2000's.

One of the big things that hampered Japanese adoption of computers in the household was that for much of the 90's DOS and Windows based computers were mostly non-existant with the Japanese companies each putting out their own proprietary computer standard.

So the Japanese computer industry didn't have a unifying force (Microsoft) like the rest of the world, and it just floundered and thankfully died. Now that Windows is driving computer use there, uptake is gradually increasing.

I think I still have a NEC PC98 around here somewhere.

Regards,
SB

patsu

18-Sep-2009, 19:07

3rd part of the interview with Sony R&D people:

http://blog.us.playstation.com/2009/09/motion-controller-update-part-iii-deep-dive-into-the-e3-demo/

In the third part of the motion controller Blog series, Richard Marks and Anton Mikhailov break down their E3 on-stage demo in more detail. From plasma whips and drawing, to abstract domino snakes and real time strategy-style games, you’ll see some things you’re already familiar with, as well as some never before seen applications that didn’t quite make the show.

EDIT: Just finished watching... cool snake demo. The rest has been shown before or inferred by forumites correctly at this point.

wco81

18-Sep-2009, 19:23

Then what are the Japanese using with the fast and cheap ISPs, if not computers?

patsu

18-Sep-2009, 19:25

May be they use the net more at/from work ?

ShadowRunner

18-Sep-2009, 19:30

I liked the baseball bat demo shows off the accuracy of the device well, also shooting the pseye from the tv was very precise. Nothing really new though, will have to wait for TGS i guess.

Rurouni

18-Sep-2009, 21:54

I just watch part 3 dive into the E3 demo on the ps blog (which is the only psmc that I have ever watch)... the accuracy is nice, but what about the lag? do you think they can fix that?

Silent_Buddha

18-Sep-2009, 22:35

Then what are the Japanese using with the fast and cheap ISPs, if not computers?

They are using it at home too, just that computer's aren't as prevalent and people on the internet through computers aren't as prevalent.

As I said though it's growing slowly but steadily ever since the Japanese stopped doing proprietary computers and embraced MS Windows. But it's mostly the younger generation, and as such, I expect adoption to speed up as more and more of them become wage earners and thus there's more and more Japanese with experience with computers.

Then again, computers are quite definitely in the luxury category in Japan. So it's one of the first things cut if budgets get tight as things are over there at the moment.

Regards,
SB

ShadowRunner

18-Sep-2009, 22:53

I just watch part 3 dive into the E3 demo on the ps blog (which is the only psmc that I have ever watch)... the accuracy is nice, but what about the lag? do you think they can fix that?

What lag? i didnt notice any at all and i was looking out for it. There may well be a little but its certainly not noticeable and nothing that would cause much issues.

obonicus

18-Sep-2009, 23:05

Then what are the Japanese using with the fast and cheap ISPs, if not computers?

Cell phones?

Rurouni

18-Sep-2009, 23:08

What lag? i didnt notice any at all and i was looking out for it. There may well be a little but its certainly not noticeable and nothing that would cause much issues.

The easiest place to spot it is when they about to try that writing stuff... just see the person and the tv, you'll notice some lag in there. You can also notice it somewhere else as long as the person demoing and the tv is on the same frame.

Arwin

18-Sep-2009, 23:08

I just watch part 3 dive into the E3 demo on the ps blog (which is the only psmc that I have ever watch)... the accuracy is nice, but what about the lag? do you think they can fix that?

I didn't see a lot of lag for the most part - otherwise the direct video overlay that they showed would be showing more problems. That said, there were a few instances where there was some slowdown. But that's it, I think: what you're seeing is some slowdown, but certainly not lag. Generally the tracking and controller input lag seems almost non-existant.

The new video doesn't seem to show a lot of new stuff by the way.

obonicus

18-Sep-2009, 23:13

I would like to know more about what happens when there's occlusion -- what if my hand covers the glowing bit, briefly? What if it's not so brief?

Rurouni

18-Sep-2009, 23:37

I would like to know more about what happens when there's occlusion -- what if my hand covers the glowing bit, briefly? What if it's not so brief?

Probably it would react the same as Wiimote (which I don't know how it would react)? They both measure the absolute position with a combination of camera and light spot so I believe they both should react the same way... probably can be predicted and compensated with the gyro/accelerometer if it just only for a brief moment. Maybe somebody already tested it on Wii?

patsu

18-Sep-2009, 23:41

There was an interview where someone mentioned briefly that it's possible to use the controller even when it's covered (may be not so accurately). If true, I think it may be using the last known absolute location followed by the controller's local motion tracking. When it's visible again, the thing can sync up with its new location. This will require accelerometer and gyro on the controller. However I am totally not sure and in fact can't find the link at all.

Here's another more realistic take:
http://www.pcworld.com/printable/article/id,169398/printable.html

GO: ... Assuming SCE’s "wands" operate line-of-sight, how free will we be to move around? What's the virtual "box" size, roughly speaking in "real" space, that we'll be able to move about in?

RM: We specifically designed PlayStation Eye with a wide field of view (75 degrees). This means when you are 10 feet away from the camera, the range of motion is 12 feet across by 9 feet high.

ShadowRunner

18-Sep-2009, 23:42

I would like to know more about what happens when there's occlusion -- what if my hand covers the glowing bit, briefly? What if it's not so brief?

They can predict where the controller would be based on accelerometer readings. The longer the occlusion the less accurate the prediction. A brief occlusion shouldnt cause much issues. You would only experience reduced accuracy on the position of the device not the angle/rotation so it wouldnt effect things like pointing at all. It would essentially become a wiimote+ briefly...

Brad Grenz

19-Sep-2009, 01:05

Yeah, nothing new and they didn't even get into the cool sword fighting/archery demo. But every time I see the tech I'm really impressed by the choices they've made. They were absolutely right when talking about how deficient pointing alone is for the writing/drawing aspect. I actually thought the RTS showed this pretty well. Trying to draw a circle around the tanks didn't seem like a good way to go. Would have made more sense to use drag selecting like you do on the PC with a mouse. Would be faster and more reliable.

Rurouni

19-Sep-2009, 02:24

Btw, after I see that part 3 again, even the lag is present at the start of the demo. When the guys start talking and moving, you see his image in the tv have a bit of lag. I don't know if it's intentional or not... Are other demo exhibits this kind of lag too? I sure hope that it is something that can be eliminated (lag).

Brad Grenz

19-Sep-2009, 02:59

There is always going to be some lag. Movement can't be reflected instantaneously on screen. That's not physically possible. But input lag occurs in all games, with all controller technologies. It's only a matter of whether or not the time-lapse is too great to ignore or adapt to. The PSMC appears to offer very low latency input.

patsu

19-Sep-2009, 03:02

The perceived lag may not be caused by the controller. It's the video capture and rendering (from PS Eye perspective). If you look at the beginning of the trailer, Dr. Marks himself is lagging a wee bit in the LCD screen compared to his real self on the left (with or without the controller). ^_^

Iron Tiger

19-Sep-2009, 08:19

Probably it would react the same as Wiimote (which I don't know how it would react)? They both measure the absolute position with a combination of camera and light spot so I believe they both should react the same way... probably can be predicted and compensated with the gyro/accelerometer if it just only for a brief moment. Maybe somebody already tested it on Wii?
According to someone I spoke to from High Voltage Software, the Motion Plus deactivates after 8 seconds out of Sensor Bar range. I'd assume that's when in pointing mode, because you can take your time lining up shots in WSR Golf, with the camera facing straight down.

Shifty Geezer

19-Sep-2009, 09:25

What lag?There's significant lag, of the order of 200 ms by my guess, whenever you see the devs addressing the screen. In the very beginning, when Richard Marks is just facing a TV screen of himself, it's very apparent. Look when he extends his hand towards the screen at about 19 seconds ("You can see a video of me coming from the PlayStation Eye"). However, we don't know how much is caused by setup. eg. Is the TV in game mode, or adding lots of processing lag?

Still, at this point it's looking no better than Natal, and users sensitive to lag may find a bit of frustration shooting an arrow and then waiting a while for the actual game to register. Gamers are going to have to hope that things will be tighter when these devices launch.

_phil_

19-Sep-2009, 15:58

In the very beginning, when Richard Marks is just facing a TV screen of himself, it's very apparent
I don't know how this lag is induced ,but it looks like it only appears in the side view of Richard facing the TV.
Anyway ,this lag isn't there in my experienced reality.It feels really right : precise and responsive.

Prophecy2k

20-Sep-2009, 00:47

I don't know how this lag is induced ,but it looks like it only appears in the side view of Richard facing the TV.
Anyway ,this lag isn't there in my experienced reality.It feels really right : precise and responsive.

Well I think we have our answer regarding any input lag with the device :smile:.

Thanks for confirming Phil... that's good to know

Shifty Geezer

20-Sep-2009, 09:47

I don't know how this lag is induced ,but it looks like it only appears in the side view of Richard facing the TV.The footage that shows the PSEye feed within the 'game' and the corresponding virtual objects is extremely good. The twisting of the controller impressed me. This system does look extremely promising, and I hope developers make good games out of it!
Anyway ,this lag isn't there in my experienced reality.It feels really right : precise and responsive.That's what we want to hear! ;)

As it look now, Natal seems better suited to 'non-gaming' games. Fitness and relaxing experiences and virtual/augmented reality things. PSM is looking great for extending gaming as we know it, with action games being more involved.

T'is an interesting time in gaming, making up for an otherwise dull couple of high-powered generic boxes that we started with. :mrgreen:

Iron Tiger

21-Sep-2009, 04:05

I was thinking today, that Microsoft might not be showing all their cards. Both Sony and Nintendo have an advantage of tactility, where you can feel your input device, but perhaps Microsoft might also have a tactile controller in the works that lets you feel a fine degree of output as well. Seeing as how practically everybody is doing head tracking and whiteboard stuff now, that's probably very well-devoloped and in no need of heavy R&D. So why did MS hire Johnny Chung Lee? Maybe for this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sk-ExWeA03Y). Of course, the guy's an interfacing visionary, so he could be working on any number of things beyond our imagination.

patsu

21-Sep-2009, 04:10

Yap, that's my thought too. They won't sit around and let others have that advantage.

I am expecting great things to come from MS this TGS, both Natal and XBL.

betan

21-Sep-2009, 05:28

Tactile controller would be a step back from controllerless natal announcement.
Other options (sonic feedback etc) are inconvenient and expensive.

E2K

21-Sep-2009, 11:23

Eyetoy had fitness-type games.
So developers can always make controller-less games, even with the Sony motion controller-concept; because it consists of a PS Eye camera ;)

ShadowRunner

21-Sep-2009, 13:59

Sony have said that they can do skeletal tracking. We need to see more about it to know if it work well enough to be a viable alternative to Natal, allowing most game concepts to be viable on both regardless of whether or not a controller must be held.

Natals big selling point and all marketing so far has been about being the only controller-less interface, i doubt thet will want to give this up even if games would be msotly better for it.

Shifty Geezer

21-Sep-2009, 15:04

Natals big selling point and all marketing so far has been about being the only controller-less interface, i doubt thet will want to give this up even if games would be msotly better for it.Precisely, which I think would be a Bad Move. What's wrong with offering the best of all worlds? I would like to see props/controllers in Natal for more natural gaming for those games that will benefit, and of course controller-less gaming for the 'broader' market.

ShadowRunner

21-Sep-2009, 15:28

Precisely, which I think would be a Bad Move. What's wrong with offering the best of all worlds? I would like to see props/controllers in Natal for more natural gaming for those games that will benefit, and of course controller-less gaming for the 'broader' market.

I would prefer that also. Im afraid MS may prefer to define controller-less gaming as clearly superior though, something that would be undermined if the games with controllers end up being the superior experience.

MS may think they will sell better if they go strictly controller-less and be solely dedicated to that regardless of how game quality is effected, and i think they may well be right.

patsu

21-Sep-2009, 15:53

There won't be a blacklash if they do a "transformer" controller; or if they want to take more risk, a glove. In fact, they can also replace their media remote control if they want to.

Shifty Geezer

21-Sep-2009, 16:29

In fact, they can also replace their media remote control if they want to.That's a good idea. Extend the media remote to a Wiimote type device, and it'll be a great Trojan controller.

I can understand MS wanting to establish a discrete identity, a strong brand like Wii has, which stands apart from the other experiences. That might be the best way to tap into the Wii crowd. I'm not sure PSMotion will manage to pinch any of that mindshare. It'll just be a shame for their existing gamers. Halo/Gears would be far better with a proper gun then pointing a finger and shouting 'ratatatatat!' :p Uncharted 2 with PSMotion could be awesome.

Silent_Buddha

21-Sep-2009, 20:49

Well, I think it rather depends.

MS isn't exactly promoting a controller less interface for the sake of being a controller less interface.

Their push with Natal is a control scheme (in this case using gestures and body movement) that is more intuitive/natural for someone that has no experience in gaming.

I think that's something a bit hard for anyone on this forum to visualize since we've all used controllers of one sort or another so much that it has become the natural way to interact. Mouse and Keyboard for FPS for example is extremely counter-intuitive and unnatural when you first start to learn it. It's only through repitition and persistence that your body and brain adapt and make it natural.

All that is to say that what seems like a natural method of control for us here on the forums might be completely counter-intuitive to the primary market MS is targetting with Natal.

That said. I'm pretty sure if there was a physical device "add-on" that MS feels fits into this natural control scheme they'll consider adding it.

PS3's system is definitely catering more to the crowd that is already at least somewhat experience in console gaming. As witnessed by their making PS3 Wand similar to traditional controllers and leveraging those console reflexes that people have picked up over the years while console gaming.

MS is going in a totally different direction by primarily targetting those people with very little or no experience with console gaming.

If they execute well on this, it's very likely that those with no console experience will feel much more at home and at east with Natal than those people with lots of console experience. In that case, they've hit their target right on.

In other words, I think we have to accept the fact that PS3 wand is more targetted at the people that would frequent this forum for examle. While Natal is targetted at us only indirectly or possibly not at all...

Either way I'm still far more excited by Natal's controllerless experience than any scheme using a physical controller as the central piece of the control scheme. Especially as the Natal scheme translates well to devices beyond consoles. Computers, DVD/BluRay stand alone devices, TVs, Air Conditioners, House Lighting, etc...

In other words, depending on implementation, the Natal concept can easily be expanded to universal control of just about anything. Whether it ever goes there, who knows. But I like thinking about it. Coming home and using a hand gesture (a wave for example) coupled with saying "Lights on" (combination to avoid inadvertently activating lights on when not intended) to turn the lights on would be inestimably cool. :) And since Natal can already "see" in the dark, it would be possible to implement assuming Natal is also useable with a computer.

Regards,
SB

Shifty Geezer

21-Sep-2009, 21:33

I think that's something a bit hard for anyone on this forum to visualize since we've all used controllers of one sort or another so much that it has become the natural way to interact.I disagree. Anyone with experience of Eyetoy knows how some controllerless gameplay can work, and it's not a huge leap to imagine advances on that. Plus any of us can sit/stand in front of a TV and pretend to be playing tennis or driving a car or whatever motions Natal might ask of us. ;)

All that is to say that what seems like a natural method of control for us here on the forums might be completely counter-intuitive to the primary market MS is targetting with Natal...Except that, as Sony's research reportedly showed, having a device to interact with, to have something to hold in your hand, is more natural than not. Okay, it's not a big deal. Anyone can pretend to have a gun or sword or tennis racquet and wave them around. But still, the gun idea makes a lot more sense with an object and a trigger or button than not. Tennis racquet too, I'd say. And that's different from conventional controller experience. Thumbstick skills won't help you in pointing a gun at a screen and pulling a trigger. Those motions are as intuive as an simple tool, no harder than working a remote (Wii's big success in design).

In other words, I think we have to accept the fact that PS3 wand is more targetted at the people that would frequent this forum for examle. While Natal is targetted at us only indirectly or possibly not at all...Wouldn't it be better for MS and XB360 if they extended Natal to include a controller though? Why exclude the 'gamer' market if Natal can serve both markets?

Silent_Buddha

21-Sep-2009, 22:13

I'm not sure they are excluding the market as much as they are focusing on the other market opportunities.

And at least according to MS market research, people with little to no console experience find traditional console controls a bit daunting.

It may be going a bit overboard in trying to be attractive to those types of people (IE - attempting to expand the market to those who previously had little to no interest in consoles).

I'm also not sure if it precludes the use of pick-up props. And could imagine a game including physical props, assuming Natal has the ability to recognize those or if it has the ability to allow devs to program it to recognize those.

Additionally nothing precludes you from using any of the current physical controllers simultaneously with Natal.

So for example, if a game dev wanted, they could do a Time Crisis shooter on rails and include a light gun accessory. Natal could track ducking and popping up to shoot over cover while the light gun takes care of aiming and shooting. Natal could additionally take head or body movements to adjust the view left or right.

Either way, while Natal itself is designed for entirely controller less inputs, nothing precludes anyone from using any type of esoteric controller with it (wands, guns, bats, guitars, drums, whatever).

However, Natal itself is mainly targetted at those who haven't picked up a HD console yet and arguably those that haven't picked up a Wii yet either. For the rest, Natal combined with special controllers is certainly possible.

Hell, if someone wanted they could do a Natal Dance-Dance Revolution type game with hula hoop accessories. :P Maybe an Xbox XBLA online multiplayer Twister game! :D

Regards,
SB

Prophecy2k

22-Sep-2009, 10:17

I simply wonder how successful MS and Natal will end up being in trying to capture this "phantom" market yet untouched by the likes of Sony with the eyetoy or nintendo with the Wii-mote...?

Surely if this market hasn't been captured by eyetoy or Wii-mote, what makes MS think that these types of people are even interested in gaming full stop? Of those that aren't but could be woo'd by the prospect of a minority report type control over the multimedia functions of the Xbox 360, I'm not convinced that these people would rush out and buy an Xbox for such.

Personally, I think one of the biggest things working against MS and Natal in this regard is their prevalent reputation of being a "video games console for the Halo crowd"... I'm not sure they'll be able to over-come public perception of the Xbox to capture a principally non-gaming market with Natal alone.

The way I see it is that those who have little to no gaming experience at all, probably don't really want to play video games. I'd even go as far as to say that a good part of the Wii's success was not in capturing the phantom non-gaming crowd, but rather in recapturing a crowd that once play mario and Zelda yet "grew out of gaming" when it became "too hardcore".

I personally don't see Natal being all that successful outside of the core experienced gaming market looking for a new gaming FAD.

That's all my opinion.

Rolf N

22-Sep-2009, 12:13

I think that's something a bit hard for anyone on this forum to visualize since we've all used controllers of one sort or another so much that it has become the natural way to interact. Mouse and Keyboard for FPS for example is extremely counter-intuitive and unnatural when you first start to learn it. It's only through repitition and persistence that your body and brain adapt and make it natural.The hand and fingers are the optimum interface. There's no other part of the body with the same density of nerves dedicated to it, with the same sensitivity and level of fine motor control, the same speed and the same tolerance for repeated motion.

Anyone can learn to do stuff with their hands and fingers. A gob-smack huge chunk of your brain is dedicated to these two little wonders.

Even if you start from zero, learning to be fast and precise with your fingers is much easier than moving your forearm or even more of your body to get things done. Watch any person who writes and see how the motions of the pen are performed. People could use the forearm or the wrists but good luck finding someone who does.
All you get from bigger motions is more fatigue, less precision.

Accessibility to the masses is just a way to pitch an ineffective choice. Look at any random remote lying around your house minus Wii remote. They all have tons of buttons (and they are invariably lighter and more comfortable to hold than a Wii remote, too). They aren't inaccessible at all. Buttons do not intimidate people. People are actually just fine with using the subsets they understand and explore from there.

betan

22-Sep-2009, 12:47

The hand and fingers are the optimum interface. There's no other part of the body with the same density of nerves dedicated to it, with the same sensitivity and level of fine motor control, the same speed and the same tolerance for repeated motion.

well, there is always the tongue :)

liolio

22-Sep-2009, 13:10

I'm not that anxious about Natal, the fact that it comes to PC too set the deal for me.
No matter what is its use in the gaming space, I feel that Mr.Wada (Square Enix CEO) got it right (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/wada-nintendo-will-release-new-console-by-2011_7) it will become a standard.

Prophecy2k

22-Sep-2009, 13:36

obonicus

22-Sep-2009, 13:43

well, there is always the tongue :)

Lips are good too -- as a bonus, you can teach your pony to play, too.

liolio

22-Sep-2009, 16:24

Source?
It's been confirmed a while ago by Gates himself.

patsu

22-Sep-2009, 16:36

Yap, a tech like Natal is great for a general UI platform. I can see how it's useful to take computing to new areas.

Like what Wada mentioned above, games that use motion control are quite difficult to design. Natal will have inherent advantage in novelty (The hands-free "magic"), 3D imaging and in general robustness regardless of lighting conditions. Ultimately, it's the applications/games that deliver.

If MS plays their cards right, they can certainly differentiate themselves more from Sony. At high level, they will be similar to each other (e.g., Natal may have controllers via third party or MS themselves for many specific games that need them), but in philosophy and the way things are done, I think they will become further and further apart.

EDIT: As for Sony, personally I think the hold of the new controller and the light ball are important to overcome PS Eye's limitations and expand its reach. The hold needs to be comfortable and effective, so much so that people feel something is missing without it. The active light (visible and invisible) can help to overcome the lighting condition in the room and also generate ambient effects. The rumble, gyro and accelerometer are already in place since SIXAXIS. While they help to make motion sensing precise, sensitive and "real", they may not stand out as much -- unless they have a boatload of control mechanism in place (from mid-air flailing to desktop mouse). These are generally most obvious when applied in a real app.

liolio

22-Sep-2009, 17:11

Yap, a tech like Natal is great for a general UI platform. I can see how it's useful to take computing to new areas.

Like what Wada mentioned above, games that use motion control are quite difficult to design. Natal will have inherent advantage in novelty (The hands-free "magic"), 3D imaging and in general robustness regardless of lighting conditions. Ultimately, it's the applications/games that deliver.

If MS plays their cards right, they can certainly differentiate themselves more from Sony. At high level, they will be similar to each other (e.g., Natal may have controllers via third party or MS themselves for many specific games that need them), but in philosophy and the way things are done, I think they will become further and further apart.

I'm not sure that game are the problem for MS if I were to take a bet I would bet that Ms gave Natal and the surrounding environment development to their usual loss leading division which is not to say that in the end games are that important for this project. Games are a part of this project, but the overall project is bigger and potentially juicier than games alone.

ShadowRunner

22-Sep-2009, 17:12

liolio

22-Sep-2009, 17:23

I think sony can steal a lot of Natals thunder with clever marketing. With there face tracking as a point of reference i think they can do some basic skeletal tracking in 2d without controllers and 3d with info from the wands. Even if it only works in ideal conditions showing this in Nintendo-esque adverts where it seems to work perfectly could take a lot away from Natals percieved uniqueness among the masses.
Tough job tho when the thing will launch on 360 and almost simultaneously on 360 and PC/7 along with most likely a crazy high marketing budget.

patsu

22-Sep-2009, 17:55

I'm not sure that game are the problem for MS if I were to take a bet I would bet that Ms gave Natal and the surrounding environment development to their usual loss leading division which is not to say that in the end games are that important for this project. Games are a part of this project, but the overall project is bigger and potentially juicier than games alone.

Well in our context, it's the most important problem because without games, there is very little reason other than media playback for Natal or Sony's new controller to exist on the consoles.

If we want to generalize for all, several PS Eye or rather image-based, rumble and motion sensing technologies are juicy and applicable to a variety of non-gaming problems too (including remote surgery for real).

EDIT: In terms of approach, MS is likely to take the horizontal, all-encompassing approach to (re)define the computing experience. Sony will probably be title by title.

Silent_Buddha

22-Sep-2009, 19:47

Accessibility to the masses is just a way to pitch an ineffective choice. Look at any random remote lying around your house minus Wii remote. They all have tons of buttons (and they are invariably lighter and more comfortable to hold than a Wii remote, too). They aren't inaccessible at all. Buttons do not intimidate people. People are actually just fine with using the subsets they understand and explore from there.

Heh, you're remote analogy isn't a good choice. Many people only use the remote for On/Off, Volume, and Channel change. If it's a media player remote add in Play, stop, and FF/RW. Despite the fact that there's often upteen million (gross exaggeration, yes) buttons to do a zillion things.

For quite a few, yes, all those buttons ARE daunting. It's one of the reasons universal remotes with fewer and larger buttons generally outsell universal remotes with many buttons. You won't be able to access all the features of all your devices, but people find comfort in the fact that it's simple and not "confusing" as some have complained to me.

Who knows whether Natal will be successful in the console arena. I think it will. But that's just a small fraction of what makes me excited about Natal. It's the possible applications for the system beyond console gaming. Everything from UI control, media playback control, computer control and by extension house fixtures control.

I'm already looking forward to being able to use say one hand in mid-air to move the view area around in an RTS rather than having to use the keyboard for example.

Improved ability to control things without having to use a keyboard for photo viewing and manipulation would be grand also. I could go on and on.

Limited strictly to games ONLY, then yeah, all the motion controllers get closer in appeal. But even then I still get more excited about the possibility of Hands Free + Physical controller if a dev wishes to add one.

Regards,
SB

Silent_Buddha

22-Sep-2009, 19:51

I think sony can steal a lot of Natals thunder with clever marketing. With there face tracking as a point of reference i think they can do some basic skeletal tracking in 2d without controllers and 3d with info from the wands. Even if it only works in ideal conditions showing this in Nintendo-esque adverts where it seems to work perfectly could take a lot away from Natals percieved uniqueness among the masses.

Color me a bit skeptical on that. Especially if games start to use more and more of the SPE's potential, that doesn't leave much for skeletal tracking (no depth so only in 2 dimensions), advanced facial recognition, etc.

That said however, it wouldn't be a problem for Sony to limit its application to simpler/less graphics and physics demanding games.

Regards,
SB

ShadowRunner

22-Sep-2009, 20:29

Color me a bit skeptical on that. Especially if games start to use more and more of the SPE's potential, that doesn't leave much for skeletal tracking (no depth so only in 2 dimensions), advanced facial recognition, etc.

That said however, it wouldn't be a problem for Sony to limit its application to simpler/less graphics and physics demanding games.

Regards,
SB

Oh no, i wasnt suggesting PSMC could truly compete with natal as a controller-less interface, just that with clever advertising they could make it seem like it could do much of the same things. It could at least impact the initial perception as something radical and new and instead be seen more as an evolution or improvement of another product already on the market.

If anything simply bringing eyetoy back into the public eye may may have a small effect in reminding people that natal is an evolution of a current controller-less interface. We know that technically there is a huge differerence but with clever marketing from sony would the general public? Cost could also then play a part, if natal is expensive average joe may not find value in the percieved difference.

Not saying any of this will happen or that its likely, just that it could.

Sony has already taken tiny steps in this direction by pointing out the fact that they too can do voice and facial recognition and also some form of sketal tracking after natals reveal. Im sure they will try and emphasize these features in the coming months. We already have singstar and GT, two mass market products using these features.

Prophecy2k

23-Sep-2009, 11:56

Oh no, i wasnt suggesting PSMC could truly compete with natal as a controller-less interface, just that with clever advertising they could make it seem like it could do much of the same things. It could at least impact the initial perception as something radical and new and instead be seen more as an evolution or improvement of another product already on the market.

If anything simply bringing eyetoy back into the public eye may may have a small effect in reminding people that natal is an evolution of a current controller-less interface. We know that technically there is a huge differerence but with clever marketing from sony would the general public? Cost could also then play a part, if natal is expensive average joe may not find value in the percieved difference.

Not saying any of this will happen or that its likely, just that it could.

Sony has already taken tiny steps in this direction by pointing out the fact that they too can do voice and facial recognition and also some form of sketal tracking after natals reveal. Im sure they will try and emphasize these features in the coming months. We already have singstar and GT, two mass market products using these features.

I agree! I also think that price will be probably the most important thing for MS to get right with Natal. If they can keep the price of entry low enough such that the average joe could easily justify the cost in order to benefit from the added control enhancements the product brings then MS will have a gold mine on their hands.

On the other hand, considering Natal's functionality I'd be expecting a price tag of at least around £100 for Natal alone (we always get shafted here in the uk). If for arguements sake it does launch around that price, unless it's released with some absolutely "killer" software I'm really not sure many people would want to fork out so much just for the added benefit of being able to use hand gestures and body movements to control NXE...

I do believe that bundling Natal with the 360 will be absolutely imperative if MS wants to have any success with it in the console space. But then if they can pull out something truly majestic software-wise at launch to entice both the casual and hardcore audience then (maybe some clever Natal plus 360 controller games) then maybe they will still see great success with a high price tag. If anything... I do think MS' biggest asset with regards to Natal and it's launch is their marketing departments almost godly ability to make a consumer feel like "you HAVE to HAVE this product, or else you'll DIE!!!!".

With Natal I think it'll ultimately come down to software, marketing and price... with price being the foremost clincher!

patsu

24-Sep-2009, 07:24

Press release with some more details:
http://www.scei.co.jp/corporate/release/pdf/090924b_e.pdf

Key Features:
・Three axes gyroscope, three axes accelerometer
・Bluetooth® 2.0
・Lithium-Ion rechargeable internal battery

It's more accurate than SIXAXIS (with a 1X gyro).

Confirmed games from SCE WWS

Ape Escape (Working Title)
Echochrome 2 (Working Title)
Eccentric Slider (Working Title)
Sing and Draw (Working Title)
Champions of Time (Working Title)
Motion Party (Working Title)
The Shoot (Working Title)
Tower (Working Title)
PAIN
Flower
Hustle Kings
High Velocity Bowling
EyePet

gongo

24-Sep-2009, 07:53

patsu

24-Sep-2009, 08:00

Shifty Geezer

24-Sep-2009, 08:05

I was going to agree, but then I thought maybe it's because Nintendo were there first and have a wide enough patent that Sony can't have a separate Nunchuck type controller? Although they could design any existing controller however they wanted.

They should have analogue on the wand though. Even if just a PSP style nub.

patsu

24-Sep-2009, 08:07

Does the RE5 demo use the same control scheme as the Wii RE4 game ? If so, the dev is simply doing a quick port to recoup their investment. The really innovative one will need extra time and resources to experiment.

PixelJunk Monster would be great with the controller, but it's not on the list. I guess there is no incentive for them to implement it if the wand starts from zero base.

Essentially, where is the equivalent of "Wii Sports" for the PS3 controller ? By equivalent, I don't mean a port of Wii Sports. Perhaps something more different since Sony has PS Eye too.

Arwin

24-Sep-2009, 08:43

I take back what i said wrt to ranking Sony mc as no.1 in potential...its looking like Sixaxis 2.0...so what if you have 1:1 motion when the concept for making mc games are as clunky/unimaginative as this...holding a DS3 in one hand and the wand in another, orly Sony?

That's not Sony though, that's Capcom. Personally I can't blame them - Resident Evil 4 Wii Edition was hugely successful, and this is a great way to re-sell RE5. I personally think it's a good idea, and since I've been playing Motorstorm much like this with just one hand, I think it's definitely doable and more than comfortable enough for me. Though as I said in the other thread, I could imagine them mapping the movement to the tilt as well as an option, but they probably won't so that they can keep that bit of control input fully compatible with the rest.

This has nothing to do with the new games that are being developed specifically for the wand though! They will still typically be designed for the wand and the camera, and have optional support for a second wand.

It's like I predicted all along though, in that Sony's MC setup is greatly suitable for porting Wii control methods to the PS3, which is a definite advantage in that it's the best way to guarantee a lot of support quickly. The PS3 motion controller even comes with the same third party SDK as WiiMotionPlus

Also, as I mentioned in the other thread, it's not possible for Sony to completely abandon the DS3 - too many games rely on it and/or simply play the best with it, and the wand wasn't there at launch. What we see here I think is basically a confirmation that from the Spring on the PS3 will launch with a DS3, Wand and PS Eye packed in.

I now think Natal could potentially be game changing..sure its not 1:1, it has quite high an input lag wrt to the other 2, but for all intent and its purposes...it may just bring about the promised new form of virtual game play....it works with the original 360 controller just fine....you know the slim Xbox 360 will come with Natal so that would be some push too.

It definitely has potential, but it will not be that easy to realise fully. I think a good exercise is to look at Wii Summer sports, and try to imagine how you would control the games in there with Natal.

StefanS

24-Sep-2009, 10:18

That's not Sony though, that's Namco. Personally I can't blame them - Resident Evil 4 Wii Edition was hugely successful, and this is a great way to re-sell RE5.

That's not Namco either, but Capcom:wink:

ShadowRunner

24-Sep-2009, 10:46

I suspect Sony will have something else in development for the analog part, its possible it just wasnt ready to be shown yet. If not a 3rd party will almost certainly bring out something.

Biggest dissapointment for me is that they didnt show anything that uses the unique features of the device, essentialy just showing its use as a pointer, wii has been doing that for years even without motion+

Shifty Geezer

24-Sep-2009, 15:12

It's like I predicted all along though, in that Sony's MC setup is greatly suitable for porting Wii control methods to the PS3, which is a definite advantage in that it's the best way to guarantee a lot of support quickly.And a great way to turn off all the existing user base who haven't bought a Wii because it doesn't offer enough for them. PSMC is supposed to be moving gaming forwards. If it doesn't, I don't see any point in anyone buying one, which means the userbase will never grow, which means no developer will support it, and it'll be another dead peripheral.

This device needs some gobsmackingly good game to launch it, or we'll have another PSEye situation with a handful of limited motion-gimmick games fading into obscurity.

patsu

24-Sep-2009, 15:14

Danalys

24-Sep-2009, 15:55

Thought I'd comment on the announced games

Ape Escape (Working Title)
Hopefully this is for PSMC what Ape Escape was for dual analog.

Echochrome 2 (Working Title)
Just pointing to place holes and springs?

Eccentric Slider (Working Title)
Sing and Draw (Working Title)
No idea about these two.

Champions of Time (Working Title)
Edit: Actually think this is the fighting game they've shown briefly

Motion Party (Working Title)
This I think is the Eye toy play Wii play like mini game collection. Pinata and a few other things have been shown.

The Shoot (Working Title)
Light gun shooter like.

Tower (Working Title)
Stacking game i think.

Could do with vid caps from the brief complilation vids from Gamescom and TGS to work out more.

patsu

24-Sep-2009, 16:10

The big mistake is they allow Capcom to show RE5 by just porting the Wii scheme over. Given the short porting time, of course they will need the analog stick with the same exact game. It's an inferior experience because of the clunky concept (even if it's doable). As Shifty pointed out, there is no/little point in RE5 + clunky motion control. This is exactly what core gamers fear all along. And Sony confirmed it publicly.

The LBP one is more interesting. For motion games, it may be important to show the gamers' faces. WiiSports is brilliant because it is able to convey the feeling of fun instantly. e.g., I am much more happy seeing this picture:

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.joystiq.com/media/2009/09/gam_sonykeynotemotion_580.jpg

TGS 2009 looks like a status update chore for Sony. Need to see the conference video to get a better sense.

EDIT: If they had shown co-op RE5 with DS3 and the motion controller (like the LBP demo), it would be a different picture altogether.

... or play RE5 on-rail with the motion controller to further make it more accessible. I know my wife hates exploration. Perhaps many casuals don't have too much time to get into it.

Danalys

24-Sep-2009, 18:00

Think i've got this worked out based on similarities in fonts and icons

Champions of Time (Working Title)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v160/ph27home/PSMCChampions1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v160/ph27home/PSMCChampions2.jpg

The Shoot (Working Title)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v160/ph27home/PSMCShoot1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v160/ph27home/PSMCShoot2.jpg

Tower (Working Title)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v160/ph27home/PSMCTower1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v160/ph27home/PSMCTower2.jpg

Shifty Geezer

24-Sep-2009, 19:27

Champions of Time may actually do it, if it offers realistic 1:1 motion controlled fighting.

Refreshment

24-Sep-2009, 20:05

How Sony manages to avoid putting a thumbstick in there?

Also it strikes me as puzzling when people asks Sony to release a "Nunchuck" for the wand controller, of the possible solutions, (the Nunchuck) is the one that makes less sense.

patsu

24-Sep-2009, 21:21

How Sony manages to avoid putting a thumbstick in there?

I think it may be hard to control the thumbstick while flinging the big stick around.

Also it strikes me as puzzling when people asks Sony to release a "Nunchuck" for the wand controller, of the possible solutions, (the Nunchuck) is the one that makes less sense.

Heh, I also think that the nunchuck is awkward even in Wii, but it's needed for core gaming. Filing it under "historic reasons" at the moment.

patsu

24-Sep-2009, 22:53

In addition to the listed games in the TGS 2009 conference, Under Siege will also support the motion controller at launch:
http://dev.undersiegegame.com/?p=143

Under Siege currently supports some cool things like:
- Native 1080p (not upscaled )
- Replay recording with option to upload to YouTube
- Motion Controller support
- Splitscreen for Co-Op and Competitive
- 4 players online
- Video and voice chat in game and on lobby (with tiny windows on the corner!)
- Photo Mode (WipEout we envy you…)
- Custom Soundtracks

And of course a full blown in-game editor where you can:
- Create your own level (single player, multiplayer) or a full campaign with your story
- Use the same tools that we used to make the Single Player Campaign
- Upload it all for everyone to see (and make us sweat with the all the wrong possibilities that a tool like this provides)

Danalys

24-Sep-2009, 23:28

I think it may be hard to control the thumbstick while flinging the big stick around.

Wouldn't be too hard while pointing tho, and the point is that you can just get two of them and it replaces and adds to the dual shock experience. If they have sticks, two triggers and the right amount of buttons that is.

patsu

24-Sep-2009, 23:39

*If* Sony decides to push 2 wands per user, then I agree.

If the common use case is 1 wand per person, then I have my doubt with the analog stick on the wand. Some of the movements can be replaced by wrist action instead of thumb action. Limiting analog stick use to only stationary pointing sounds like an overkill.

I do recognize that the thumbstick is sorely needed though. It's a little frustrating to settle that we need a separate nunchuck just for the stick. Then again, I am pretty sure Nintendo thought through this carefully.

It may be possible to infer some action from the overall head and body posture + movement (a la Natal/PS Eye style) but that seems imprecise. What we need is a 360 degree thread mill. :-P

Danalys

24-Sep-2009, 23:58

Well they don't need to push two per user. One can work fine for many "casual" games. People using that could ignore the stick altogether.

Imagine you play two player using two controllers each. then for a party game get four people playing a game that just requires one controller per person.

As far as i see it it's a case of centerable control being required for certain actions. Wands Wiimotes etc are 3D mice but then you also need your analog stick. A 3D stick would be prefferable but not so easy to pull of on a controller. Analog triggers can make up for this.

Now you might not need a d-pad because menus become selectable with pointing, and in the case of other things, yes you could just move the controller sharply in the direction required. A quarter circle becomes a little hand movement rather than thumb etc. Or you use buttons in lieu of the dpad.

patsu

25-Sep-2009, 00:07

Bah... I need to hold one to get a feel.

Having a stick or some sort of tilt button on each wand will make the setup more flexible. The scenarios you described still lean towards 2 wands per active player for the complete experience.

I think Sony wants to set the entry price low (i.e., 1 wand only).

Overall it's a problem of their positioning. If they want to drop the analog stick, they should just not do the RE5 demo. Simply conduct an internal focus test and tell developers that DS3 + wand is not a good enough setup for most (if proven true). The devs will find other workaround for it. We just won't get straight Wii ports. There are many other "enjoyable" configurations.

I'd say most core gamers won't be interested in RE5 + clunky set up anyway.

Danalys

25-Sep-2009, 00:19

I'm mostly not intrested in buying the same game twice. Even with a few add ons and a new control system. But some people do.

They have already demonstrated two wand play with the shield sword demo and archery. Both demos which appealed to the hardcore the most. Altho personaly I dream of a painting/sculpting program. They could take a page out of Nintendos book and sell the kit with one controller but sell a game that needs an extra with an extra.

MfA

25-Sep-2009, 01:49

These wands are just pieces of plastic with 2 bucks worth of electronics, the batteries are probably the most expensive parts ... if they sell you one it's because they want to keep the profit high, not the price low :)

patsu

25-Sep-2009, 01:57

Low entry price/high profit are just flip sides of the same coin. Sony need to balance their profit and the consumers' "willingness to buy". The distribution channel will take some of that margin away since the wand should be available separately. Naturally, Sony would want to at least recover the loss in selling the basic PS3 hardware unit.

The wand(s) will also need a PS Eye.

Refreshment

25-Sep-2009, 02:23

I think it may be hard to control the thumbstick while flinging the big stick around.

Hi Patsu:
Like others posters pointed out, i was talking about the possibility that allows the inclusion of a thumbstick. That is a 2nd wand to function as a Wii Nunchuk. So you'll have the cheap DS3/Wand combo and the "ideal" 2 wand configuration for your more complex/demanding/whatever games.

Heh, I also think that the nunchuck is awkward even in Wii, but it's needed for core gaming. Filing it under "historic reasons" at the moment.
Im not against a Nunchuck per se. But the more you analyze the existence of the peripheral,as it is, the more you see that the economics reasons were more powerful than ergonomics, philosophical or design reasons Nintendo might have though about.

Also we agree the inclusion of the thumbstick allows for more potential uses for this peripheral. So its absence so far is... puzzling... since it wont greatly amplify the perceived complexity of the controller nor its price.

patsu

25-Sep-2009, 02:27

Hi Patsu:
Like others posters pointed out, i was talking about the possibility that allows the inclusion of a thumbstick. That is a 2nd wand to function as a Wii Nunchuk. So you'll have the cheap DS3/Wand combo and the "ideal" 2 wand configuration for your more complex/demanding/whatever games.

Yeah... I misunderstand your 2 wand set up. I was assuming that the wands are identical. In your case, you seem to be talking about an asymmetrical wand setup exactly like Wiimote + nunchuck.

I wanted the symmetric setup for archery. ^_^

Im not against a Nunchuck per se. But the more you analyze the existence of the peripheral,as it is, the more you see that the economics reasons were more powerful than ergonomics, philosophical or design reasons Nintendo might have though about.

Also we agree the inclusion of the thumbstick allows for more potential uses for this peripheral. So its absence so far is... puzzling... since it wont greatly amplify the perceived complexity of the controller nor its price.

Too many mysteries, need the PS Blog folks to do another interview with Dr Marks.

Refreshment

25-Sep-2009, 03:04

Yeah... I misunderstand your 2 wand set up. I was assuming that the wands are identical. In your case, you seem to be talking about an asymmetrical wand setup exactly like Wiimote + nunchuck.

I wanted the symmetric setup for archery. ^_^

I want the symmetrical set up also. Just one universal wand.

Normally don't get too involved in these types of discussions, just wasting bytes and internet bandwidth. "BUT" it is too bad or sad that the solution that works like we all expected the Wii to do gets ruined for some lack of vision. Sony has already invested the resources with this enterprise, so why not just do a tiny little final effort to correctly pull this off?

Found this somewhat irritating, dont know the rest of you guys :)

P.S.: You dont even know the kind of emotions that archery demo produced. That was the finest moment of E3 for me.