Old Discussion Thread for all 3 motion controllers

[Scott_Arm]

You dont point the wiimote by moving it on the xy axis though, your understanding of how these pointing devices are working is flawed. You can point in different directions with the wiimote wile keeping its xy position the same, its the angle the device is facing/pointing that makes it a pointer.

But functionally it's exactly the same thing, even in 3D space.

I can see your point if you wanted to do something like the flashlight demo. You want to hold a flashlight and flash it around by turning your wrist to illuminate different areas in the game world. Natal might be able to do something that could use arm direction, but it would be far less natural and intuitive. I was thinking the question of whether could be used as a pointer was referring to its use in selecting a point on screen by moving a cursor or whatever.

[22psi]

Unsure if this has been linked, Natal hands on:

http://kotaku.com/5276789/from-stick-figure-to-mind+blowing-controls

"I drove around a bit of the city using my imaginary steering wheel, weaving between cars with no problem, tearing around sharp corners and deliberately plowing into other vehicles. It felt a bit weird to hold my arms out straight in front of me and pretend to drive, but the results were so lag free, so responsive that it didn't bother me."

[betan]

Unsure if this has been linked, Natal hands on:

http://kotaku.com/5276789/from-stick-figure-to-mind+blowing-controls

Impressive software (with a crystal sphere maybe?):

All of that was just the system's input, the software took that input and removed lag to make sure that your motions were fed through the system to the game's controls will little to no slow down.


z-tech is awesome though.

[RancidLunchmeat]

Yes, I keep reading comments on here that Natal looked 'laggy' and the response time wasn't good, it was a tech demo that doesn't actually work, etc..

All the 'independent' reports I've read from the media people who had the opportunity to use it at E3 have said it is incredibly responsive, so much so that they were oversteering in Burn Out because they were using motions that were too expressive and the precision was so good.

[ShadowRunner]

But functionally it's exactly the same thing, even in 3D space.

Its not the same, with simple xy tracking nadal would not be able to reproduce the flashlight demo at all.

Yes you could control a cursor on screen but it wouldnt be really "pointing", you could also do it with voice controll but that woulnt be pointing either.

[Naboomagnoli]

Conversely I read this:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10254684-1.html?tag=mncol;title

Project Natal, the Xbox 360's motion-sensing camera add-on, certainly has potential, but the promo video for it Microsoft showed off was purely a work of science fiction. In it, a happy family enjoys multimedia content, chats with friends, and plays complex interactive games without a controller, just using their bodies. The actual playable demos were a few generations behind that, more reminiscent of the Sony Eye Toy accessory for the PS2--the main example was a simple game where players bat a ball back at the screen by swatting at the air, with just enough lag to be annoying. We're very excited about the potential of this new motion-sensing, face-and-voice-recognizing, camera add-on, but for now the gulf between the reality and prerendered video is sizable.

[Scott_Arm]

I'm curious to know the difference of the accuracy in the camera imaging part and the 3D depth sensing. The camera must have fairly good resolution and accuracy to detect differences in facial expression. What's his dude warned people about overcalibrated their smiles/frowns. You should be able to smile or frown normally.

[Scott_Arm]

Its not the same, with simple xy tracking nadal would not be able to reproduce the flashlight demo at all.

Yes you could control a cursor on screen but it wouldnt be really "pointing", you could also do it with voice controll but that woulnt be pointing either.

I get your point about the flashlight. I'd already edited my post above.

Edit:

I was thinking of pointing in the physical world to select a point on screen, like you'd use a laser pointer during a presentation. There are ways to do this using your hand or arm that would functionally be the same. What you're talking about is in-game, and Natal could not do that from what I've read. I'm not sure which obonicus was referring to when he questioned whether it could be used as a "pointer."

[Naboomagnoli]

I've always thought that it could be used to point in a crude way, but would be more effective in a situation where you wave your hand in the right position. In that sense it could be used in a menu (such as the dashboard), but not for anything that is time critical or requires anything like the sort of pinpoint accuracy you could glean from the PSMote/WMP system - it just isn't playing to the Natal's strengths at all.

[patsu]

Yes, I keep reading comments on here that Natal looked 'laggy' and the response time wasn't good, it was a tech demo that doesn't actually work, etc..


The steering wheel demo should work because it's easy to track the extended fists in front of the players using the zCam.


All the 'independent' reports I've read from the media people who had the opportunity to use it at E3 have said it is incredibly responsive, so much so that they were oversteering in Burn Out because they were using motions that were too expressive and the precision was so good.

As long as the camera is focused on the fists, it should work like a charm (Not sure how multiple player would work; they will have to iron it out). By right, you don't even need to form the skeleton of the players.

The scenarios people debated around here are more for precise control like writing. There are other advanced use cases that remain to be sampled by outsiders here (like tracking Yoga, karate chops, imaging the environment, tracking different types of finger movement).

In general though, if people are oversteering or misjudging the movement, it is unclear whether it's their fault or the controller's without objective measurements.

[ShadowRunner]

I get your point about the flashlight. I'd already edited my post above.

Edit:

I was thinking of pointing in the physical world to select a point on screen, like you'd use a laser pointer during a presentation. There are ways to do this using your hand or arm that would functionally be the same. What you're talking about is in-game, and Natal could not do that from what I've read. I'm not sure which obonicus was referring to when he questioned whether it could be used as a "pointer."

No no, a laser pointer is a good example of what i was meaning. Pointing with a laser pointer is based on rotation and angle rather than where the laser is emmited from on the xy axis. I dont think pointing like you would with a laser pointer would be possible with nadal with any kind of accuracy.

[tha_con]

I think the issues people had with burnout and oversteer using Natal probably had more to do with a true lack of tactile feedback.

[Scott_Arm]

No no, a laser pointer is a good example of what i was meaning. Pointing with a laser pointer is based on rotation and angle rather than where the laser is emmited from on the xy axis. I dont think pointing like you would with a laser pointer would be possible with nadal with any kind of accuracy.

Who cares? As long as you can have some movement in 2D space in the physical world mapped to your cursor in 2D space, you have exactly the same thing. If all you care about is moving a cursor around on the screen.

If the cursor has a top and bottom so that it has to be rotated, unlike a laser, then it would make a difference.

I see the in-game flashlight as something entirely different, and an obvious limitation of Natal.

[Arwin]

I think the issues people had with burnout and oversteer using Natal probably had more to do with a true lack of tactile feedback.

No, it's probably more like sixaxis - you think you need to make exaggerated movements for it to register, and then after a while you figure out that it actually needs only subtle movements. This is why playing Motorstorm with the sixaxis actually isn't tiring - you don't have to hold it in front of you, you just tilt the controller slightly left or right. In fact, you can easily and comfortably play it with one hand (at least I can, have big hands though).

I did a calculation of the lag somewhere else, which according to my primitive estimations end about at about 117ms, if the figure is true that Natal needs 5 frames to scan a scene - I added two more frames for interpreting the data to translate the movements to the game, so it could be a bit less. Lag for the PS3 controller seems to be practically absent. We'll see. I do hope that the final controller launches at or before E3 next year though, with some good software. It should definitely be doable, but it will be hard work for Sony regardless. But it seems that they have a library available for developers ready to go as well, made by the same people who did the wii-mote library. It seems pretty easy to implement, and developers like EA and Sega will greatly benefit from the experience with the Wii-mote.

This thing is still my dream come true - but the Microsoft 3D cam is very cool also. Good times! I guess I'm not hardcore enough, because I've always loved motion controls - just not enough to get a Wii for it. WiiMotionPlus however was tempting to me because it was close to what I was hoping for from the Wii-Mote originally, but now I may be able to hold out. ;)

Anyway, I thought the spray-painting in the demo was really, really cool. I'd probably get this just for that! Would be great in combination with LBP also :D

[Crossbar]

Conversely I read this:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10254684-1.html?tag=mncol;title

Fall 2010 it is then. (Natal)

[Scott_Arm]

I did a calculation of the lag somewhere else, which according to my primitive estimations end about at about 117ms, if the figure is true that Natal needs 5 frames to scan a scene - I added two more frames for interpreting the data to translate the movements to the game, so it could be a bit less.

I think the five frames is just to calibrate and find the skeletons. Like, you turn it on and it takes five frames to scan the room and find the person it is going to track and build a skeleton from the point cloud. That was my interpretation of what was said.

[Nesh]

I have to agree with Shifty. Sony had a huge weapon in their hands years before anyone came up with the idea of motion sensor controls.

The Eye Camera could have started what Nintendo started.

Sony could have gained momentum from casuals if they demonstrated the possibilities before MS did today.

Sony could have gotten the credibility MS got recently. For example take a look at this.

http://www.gametrailers.com/video/e3-09-eyepet/50608

Why not shown at the conference? Why didnt Sony exploit the technology better and sooner?

It is an extremely similar concept to what MS demonstrated. Only this one is actually a real working title set for release. No controllers. Real objects and yourself are the controllers. You can create objects out of nowhere and interact with the creature.

I think it was Shifty as well who stated 3 or 4 years ago that Sony would have been in a better position in the mass market appeal if an Eye camera was bundled with every console and supported better.

[Crossbar]

No no, a laser pointer is a good example of what i was meaning. Pointing with a laser pointer is based on rotation and angle rather than where the laser is emmited from on the xy axis. I dont think pointing like you would with a laser pointer would be possible with nadal with any kind of accuracy.

And that´s why I believe there will be wands as well, but presenting them now would take away some of the hype those crazy videos generated and make it harder to sell the wands separate from the camera.

The Natal camera will alone allow super charged EyeToy games and In the Movies games that actually works. Adding wands will allow them to take Wii type of games to the next level with full body capture of the player which could control the character in third person view.

[Crossbar]

I have to agree with Shifty. Sony had a huge weapon in their hands years before anyone came up with the idea of motion sensor controls.

The Eye Camera could have started what Nintendo started.

Sony could have gained momentum from casuals if they demonstrated the possibilities before MS did today.

Sony could have gotten the credibility MS got recently. For example take a look at this.

http://www.gametrailers.com/video/e3-09-eyepet/50608

Why not shown at the conference? Why didnt Sony exploit the technology better and sooner?

It is an extremely similar concept to what MS demonstrated. Only this one is actually a real working title set for release. No controllers. Real objects and yourself are the controllers. You can create objects out of nowhere and interact with the creature.

I think it was Shifty as well who stated 3 or 4 years ago that Sony would have been in a better position in the mass market appeal if an Eye camera was bundled with every console and supported better.
Sure Sony could have exploited the PS Eye more similar to what they did with the Eyetoy, but let´s face it, much of this type of games is aimed at the casual market and the price point of the PS3 just isn´t there yet.

One thing I´ve noted regarding Sony is that they usually don´t introduce new products (PS peripherals in particular) unless they can sell them in significant volumes. They are really going for economy of scale when they release stuff or else they skip it or just keeps waiting until the target volumes can be reached.

Next spring there may be around 35 million PS3s on the market and Sony will be releasing GodOfWar3, GT5 and FFXIII on their platform. I would expect that to trigger a few buy signals in the casual market. A PS3 Sports game may be just right at that time and maybe Sony introduces a new low price entry SKU with a 16 GB flash drve as well?

[ShadowRunner]

Who cares? As long as you can have some movement in 2D space in the physical world mapped to your cursor in 2D space, you have exactly the same thing. If all you care about is moving a cursor around on the screen.

It isnt the same at all though. Pointing to move a cursor is different than moving a cursor by any other means. Pointing is the prefered method to use if you want to point at something, anything else is not naturally what you would do and so goes against wate these motion controllers are trying to achieve. Would you be happy with the wii controls if you had to move the whole wand up down left right insead of tilting and rotating it?

Im not sure you are quite understanding what i mean by rotation and angle being the key to pointing devices. By rotating i dont mean making a door knob type motion but the motion you would make moving a mouse left and right while keeping your wrist and arm in the same position. That probably stil wont make it any clearer im not too good at explaining myself lol

[Nesh]

Sure Sony could have exploited the PS Eye more similar to what they did with the Eyetoy, but let´s face it, much of this type of games is aimed at the casual market and the price point of the PS3 just isn´t there yet.

One thing I´ve noted regarding Sony is that they usually don´t introduce new products (PS peripherals in particular) unless they can sell them in significant volumes. They are really going for economy of scale when they release stuff or else they skip it or just keeps waiting until the target volumes can be reached.

Next spring there may be around 35 million PS3s on the market and Sony will be releasing GodOfWar3, GT5 and FFXIII on their platform. I would expect that to trigger a few buy signals in the casual market. A PS3 Sports game may be just right at that time and maybe Sony introduces a new low price entry SKU with a 16 GB flash drve as well?

If an Eye Toy was included with every package you ve got large volumes and thus economies of scale right there. The product could have been exploited probably in combination with the standard controller. It would have picked some interest from competition. Price helped Wii sell, but it was also its marketed uniqueness. What would have been there to market as a strategic advantage besides price when you arent the only one offering a similar experience?

The PS brand had more appeal to a wider audience than what Sega's products had years ago. It had some considerable recognition among casuals as well.

Although the PS3 at such a high price it would have never enjoyed the sales of the Wii today, Sony could have combined the market of casuals and core gamers better than anyone else. They would have had a larger appeal than the one they have today.

Their current effort to approach casuals such as EyePet seems like a harder bet considering that the Eye Camera's's support is limited and is an extra cost.

Now imagine how things would have been if the concept video Shifty posted was realized and every PS3 had an Eye Camera.

[Strange]

I did a calculation of the lag somewhere else, which according to my primitive estimations end about at about 117ms, if the figure is true that Natal needs 5 frames to scan a scene - I added two more frames for interpreting the data to translate the movements to the game, so it could be a bit less.

5 Frames is okay for certain types of games, but definately unacceptable for some others.
Interesting as I remember that I said somewhere that the lag probably comes to around 0.1 second or so. Motion recongnition of this type is hard to do under 50 milliseconds because of the algorithms and analysis, and thus, a lag of a few frames is probably unavoidable.

[liolio]

It isnt the same at all though. Pointing to move a cursor is different than moving a cursor by any other means. Pointing is the prefered method to use if you want to point at something, anything else is not naturally what you would do and so goes against wate these motion controllers are trying to achieve. Would you be happy with the wii controls if you had to move the whole wand up down left right insead of tilting and rotating it?

Im not sure you are quite understanding what i mean by rotation and angle being the key to pointing devices. By rotating i dont mean making a door knob type motion but the motion you would make moving a mouse left and right while keeping your wrist and arm in the same position. That probably stil wont make it any clearer im not too good at explaining myself lol
I think I see what is your concern and I think it can be overcome. For example they could keep the X,Y,Z value for the most extreme part (the closest to the tv) of what considered your arm and then draw a vector with where your elbow supposely is. If you move your forearm really few the chnage in Zvalues won't be that significant in reagrd to the vector value then blending calibration and you already mostly done.
EDIT
They almost only take as Z value of the said vector the Z difference between the elbow and the wrist and only keep X,Y value of the most "extreme" point, that wouldn't change much after calibration.

[liolio]

Now imagine how things would have been if the concept video Shifty posted was realized and every PS3 had an Eye Camera.
The point is that underlying software may be the tough thing to pull out properly.

[dabomb665m]

It isnt the same at all though. Pointing to move a cursor is different than moving a cursor by any other means. Pointing is the prefered method to use if you want to point at something, anything else is not naturally what you would do and so goes against wate these motion controllers are trying to achieve. Would you be happy with the wii controls if you had to move the whole wand up down left right insead of tilting and rotating it?

Im not sure you are quite understanding what i mean by rotation and angle being the key to pointing devices. By rotating i dont mean making a door knob type motion but the motion you would make moving a mouse left and right while keeping your wrist and arm in the same position. That probably stil wont make it any clearer im not too good at explaining myself lol


I think what the two of you are trying to describe are along the same lines but with different principles. What Shadowrunner is trying to say is that a pointing device (not like a mouse but more like a laser pointer... ala gyroscopic means) would make for a much better pointing interface. Imagine for a moment using a laser pointer for a presentation but not being allowed to use your wrist (perhaps it is attached to your shoulder). You would, in essence, be moving your body all over the room to try and cover the entirety of the presentation screen. I believe this is the problem Shadowrunner is trying to convey... as this issue would not be present with sony's mo-cap based system since you can "point" in 3D space which is then represented on a 2D plane using your wrists... much like writing on a piece of paper or again, pointing with a laser pointer.


Scott_arm is saying that moving a cursor on a 2D plane, regardless of how you achieve it, is the same thing. Neither of you are wrong so to speak. I think Shadowrunner is just trying to say that Natal may have difficulty making cursor manipulation on a 2D plane seem natural for the human body if small joint and finger recognition is not possible with Natal's resolution setup.

I think with Natal, this 2D plane traversal can be achieved with some relative tuning in respect to the distance someone is sitting from the TV using a "virtual UI". Perhaps natal is accurate enough to track your hand and together with z-cam, can track the depth. With this, they can set up a virtual mouse that has it's sensitivity tuned such that movement of the hand does not have to be too drastic to traverse the 2D TV space. In this sense, it is not necessary for Natal to recognize joint movements for 2D cursor traversal using 3D movements ala a laser pointer.

Hope that wasn't too confusing :lol:

[Need 2 Know]

New Video of the Eyepet for the PS3

LINK (http://www.nextgamer.nl/index.php?pagina=nieuws/lezen&id=2558)

I really like the look of this, has great potential.

[ShadowRunner]

I think what the two of you are trying to describe are along the same lines but with different principles. What Shadowrunner is trying to say is that a pointing device (not like a mouse but more like a laser pointer... ala gyroscopic means) would make for a much better pointing interface. Imagine for a moment using a laser pointer for a presentation but not being allowed to use your wrist (perhaps it is attached to your shoulder). You would, in essence, be moving your body all over the room to try and cover the entirety of the presentation screen. I believe this is the problem Shadowrunner is trying to convey... as this issue would not be present with sony's mo-cap based system since you can "point" in 3D space which is then represented on a 2D plane using your wrists... much like writing on a piece of paper or again, pointing with a laser pointer.

Spot on :lol:

[Nesh]

The point is that underlying software may be the tough thing to pull out properly.

Depends what you are trying to do.

[liolio]

Depends what you are trying to do.
Well through Ms executive interview and the blog, it looks like retrieve "squeletical" information was quiet complex. It looks that the whole thing took MS various R&D division quiet some year of research (even if they are likely to implement only a part of it).
But it's clear that Ms to make the most of Natal has to be able to do what pseye wants to.
Zvalue will helps dismiss the noise/unnecessary data from the optical camera but Natal has to be good at handling datas in 2D too. For fingers for instance expecting tracking/motion mapping is desillusionary still Natal have to be able to recognize some specific hand positions.
I think of simple positions that would give great option in control, that's more 2D shape recognition I guess but still usefull to the overall experience.

[Brad Grenz]

I'm curious to know the difference of the accuracy in the camera imaging part and the 3D depth sensing. The camera must have fairly good resolution and accuracy to detect differences in facial expression. What's his dude warned people about overcalibrated their smiles/frowns. You should be able to smile or frown normally.

I'm convinced the lag problem is largely caused by very fast motion which the system has trouble keeping up with. If you're doing the driving game you are barely moving your hands. If you are throwing your arms and legs around like crazy for the breakout game it is gonna have trouble.

I also think that Kotaku report was funny. Didn't bother you holding your arms out like that for a 5 minute demo? What happens when you get it home for a 2 hour game session? I'll bet you switch to the controller in the first ten minutes.

[AzBat]

Sony's show went down yesterday. Motion controller, new PSP and so on. Thoughts?As far as motion control goes, I can't speak for what anyone else is doing, but when we thought about that challenge, we did so knowing that in the traditional handheld game controller sense, we already have the best controller around. But the challenge with motion control is that traditional solutions still have to have buttons, thumbsticks and so on. So we said to ourselve, if we're going to face this challenge of bringing entirely new customers in, the buttons... the controls really are the last barrier. I could teach my mom to play Burnout all day long, but she will never get it. She got NATAL in five seconds. It's never been about replacing the controller, but creating different experiences for different types of player.


http://xbox-360.nowgamer.com/news/630/e3-exclusive-interview-with-xboxs-albert-penello

Tommy McClain

[Tap In]

http://xbox-360.nowgamer.com/news/630/e3-exclusive-interview-with-xboxs-albert-penello
It's never been about replacing the controller, but creating different experiences for different types of player.Tommy McClain


yes... 50 million gamers.... meet the other 50 million people who would never pick up a controller and feel like the wii is for kids. Where as XBLive offers a near complete multimedia solution for the average adult, 1v100 or other game shows and "games" (applications) that they may actually learn to play since they don't need a controller. :lol:

[patsu]

Yes, all the console motion sensing controllers, Wii, PS Eye/EyeToy, Natal, PSMC cater very well to casuals. They all can be grasped within seconds (or just by watching a TV ad). Only Wii and PS Eye are in the market today though. Contrary to what MS execs claimed, Wii has proven that the buttons are not necessarily a barrier -- even for casuals.

In fact, whether it's 3D motion tracking, 2D tracking, color tracking, yes controller, no controller, etc. are not so relevant in this context. There are pros and cons for these approaches. The application and marketing are the differentiators.

[obonicus]

We do realize that there's a segment of the population that doesn't actually want to play videogames? Or are we positing that somewhere between wii owners and people who only play solitaire there's another expanded market the size of the one the wii tapped into who's looking for even more simplified experiences?

[Tap In]

Wii has proven that the buttons are not necessarily a barrier -- even for casuals. .

to play wii bowling once a month with their kids maybe or wii fit which is body motion. you are still excluding a majority. think outside the box and down the road. 5-7 years. this is bigger than eyetoy (concept wise) and the comparison is not congruent with Natal IMO. Especially if it gets bundled into future units.



We do realize that there's a segment of the population that doesn't actually want to play videogames? Or are we positing that somewhere between wii owners and people who only play solitaire there's another expanded market the size of the one the wii tapped into who's looking for even more simplified experiences?


now you're getting it ;)

yes that's the segment they are going for. well not the hard core will never play a game but the, "looks interesting but if it did this or that and I didn't need to pik up one of those thingys"

Actually Im talking about people who won't even know they want to play it until some Dev with an Ms SDK shows them how and why they will.

[patsu]

to play wii bowling once a month with their kids maybe or wii fit which is body motion. you are still excluding a majority. think outside the box and down the road. 5-7 years. this is bigger than eyetoy (concept wise) and the comparison is not congruent with Natal IMO


Why is Wii only bowling ? I see Wii Fit and other software too whenever I visit my Wii friends. Why does "no controller" automatically mean they will play it more than Wii ? There are apps that are controller friendly or unsuitable for "no controller".

5-7 years down the road, Microsoft, Nintendo and Sony all will have something more and new to show. While EyeToy is "only" a camera, it's the software that runs it. As a 5-6 year old technology, it already does many of what Natal wants to do but not released yet. Sony can certainly improve on it further (PSMC is the next step for them). As long as Sony and Nintendo continue to plough on their base, EyeToy/PS Eye and Wii will continue to evolve.

From your MS centric view, perhaps their future is all you could see. But the world is a big place, and full of opportunities. Think outside the box indeed !

[Tap In]

Why is Wii only bowling ? I see Wii Fit and other software too whenever I visit my Wii friends. 5-7 years down the road, Microsoft, Nintendo and Sony will have something more to show.

because the "casual-casual" only do those simple tricks... wii fit and a wii sports game with their kids. (I'm simplifying of course). Holding a trigger and waving your hand is not exactly being sold on buttons. ;)

yes 5-7 years and I suspect full body will be more applicable at that time. why> because hand motions are simple and limiting. Natal is endless and the hardware software will only get better.

[betan]

We do realize that there's a segment of the population that doesn't actually want to play videogames? Or are we positing that somewhere between wii owners and people who only play solitaire there's another expanded market the size of the one the wii tapped into who's looking for even more simplified experiences?

Honestly I'm far from convinced that wii U 360 U ps3 has most of the potential video gamer market.
I think Natal (as a tech) has more chance of capturing casual market than Wii can.

Of course there is the business side, and the fact that MS doesn't really innovate, even worse when it comes to video games. Then again they have the resources, so I have full confidence in MS that they will capture more than current market within couple of gens.

[MfA]

The gimmicks sell the consoles, but in the end games have to be sold as well.

That gamer which is even more casual than the Wii gamer won't buy a lot of games, unless he get hooked into spending some substantial time gaming ... at which point he will want a comfortable control method for longer duration play.

[patsu]

because the "casual-casual" only do those simple tricks... wii fit and a wii sports game with their kids. (I'm simplifying of course). Holding a trigger and waving your hand is not exactly being sold on buttons. ;)

Wii Fit and Wii Sports represent huge successes built on assorted controller technologies. Wii is a brand. It is not tied to any controller technology. It will use whatever technology that makes sense.


yes 5-7 years and I suspect full body will be more applicable at that time. why> because hand motions are simple and limiting. Natal is endless and the hardware software will only get better.

EyeToy is not just hand motion, and it's already available 5 years ago. Neither is Wii Fit a hand motion device. As long as the companies continue to invest, Wii, PS Eye, and Natal will continue to evolve endlessly. They can all find their own niches in the market -- provided they execute well.

[betan]

The gimmicks sell the consoles, but in the end games have to be sold as well.

Totally.

That gamer which is even more casual than the Wii gamer won't buy a lot of games, unless he get hooked into spending some substantial time gaming ... at which point he will want a comfortable control method for longer duration play.
While I agree, there two aspects to success of any control scheme: Usability and fan factor
I think Natal's biggest challenge (apart from good games to utilize its tech) is usability and MS did absolutely terrible job of presenting that. On the other hand, if the hard tech foundation is there, the only thing left is soft tech and Natal's software can potentially evolve much faster and better than any physical control layout, with much more freedom.

[Tap In]

Wii Fit and Wii Sports represent huge successes built on assorted controller technologies. Wii is a brand. It is not tied down to any controller technology. It will use whatever technology that makes sense.



EyeToy is not just hand motion, and it's already available 5 years ago. Neither is Wii Fit a hand motion device. As long as the companies continue to invest, Wii, PS Eye, and Natal will continue to evolve endlessly. They can all find their own niches in the market -- provided they execute well.

I hear what you are saying there but Sony didn't demo an eye toy solution lately. ;) the way you have been discussing this I would have thought they did. It was a hand held wand. And I disagree wii is a hand held only solution except for wii fit. Natal is already leaps ahead in this "race" for the future of motion gaming IMO.

[patsu]

I hear what you are saying there but Sony didn't demo an eye toy solution lately. ;) the way you have been discussing this I would have thought they did. It was a hand held wand. And I disagree wii is a hand held only solution except for wii fit. Natal is already leaps ahead in this "race" for the future of motion gaming IMO.

*Sigh*

Tell me what you hear at 0:16s - 0:22s

qiX-26VL4bM

Notice that he also mentioned color tracking, which is more than (or different from) mere 3D motion tracking.

... and this E3 2009 trailer:

wEBmj8gMvKw

... using tech demoes we saw a year ago. Check out the drawing recognition (also not 3D motion tracking).


Their problem is the PS3 price point at the moment, but in 2010, who knows ?


Many people laugh at Nintendo's Vitality sensor, but Nintendo can get the user to do free form exercises (without any motion tracking technologies). If the purpose is there, people will do it and measure their vitality for wellness purposes. The correctness of motion may or may not be important (Track so much for what ?! Can Natal even see heartbeats ?)

I know the 3D tracking technology is sexy, but there are 1001 ways to skin the cat (and MS is trying to buy up all of them :)). If you can perform most of the tasks using a simpler and cheaper technology, it can be an advantage too. Then stack better stuff on top as the user base evolves.

[Tap In]

Sorry been replying while playing Red faction I'll listen tomorrow when not on my phone. I trust they mantioned it but they are "selling" the wand. They have had a couple years to make eye toy viable ( we have a ps2 one here) so far it is not what Natal appears to be going for

[Shifty Geezer]

I don't understnad what you mean. Which axis on the controller and which point on the screen?The axis of the wand (not XYZ!), along the length of the wand in a linear ray. As a laser beam from a laser pointer.

All it knows is whether the screen is above or below, but nothing else. Maybe you could calibrate to do accurate screen pointing, but I've never seen it used, and I've never seen it in game.There's a calibration tool in the Wii menus. This sets up the triangulation so the screen is mapped to motion. You can point on the screen keeping the XY position of the Wiimote static and rotating it on a point. You can rotate to point at any part of the screen and have the Wiimote cursor land pretty much there. It's sensitive enough that it picks up the wobble of the hand! Although range isn't great. You have to be close enough to the TV/sensor bar otherwise it jitters like crazy or loses input competely. Triangulation isn't truly pixel-accurate or screen-aware, but it's as good an approximation as we can hope to get, and is very effective, just as GPS has no idea what the Earth looks like, but can locate where you are on it to a very small fraction of the Earth's area.

That's true, there probably isn't any rotation, but as a simple pointer is that even important? I was only originally responding to the claim that Natal couldn't be used as a pointing device.Okay, yeah, you can do pointing like that, moving your arm more like mouse, as EyeToy does it. Natal will be fine for interfaces. I was talking about a pointing device as a handgun though. For playing a shooter where you hold the gun, like a lightgun, it needs something extra (I assume). And likewise baseball/tennis, I think. In golf, the rotation of the club may be inferred from arm positions if you hold it right. I admit I'm guessing at this point looking at the tech and demos and seeing what wasn't shown. ;) I would love to be proved wrong. A single camera system that can do the whole Wii thing would be perfectly elegant.

Regards lag, EyeToy had a consderable lag. I'd expect a couple of frames minimum with any imaging based device, though if the camera is faster than the screen refresh (PSEye's 120 Hz mode) that may be less.

[Shifty Geezer]

Sorry been replying while playing Red faction I'll listen tomorrow when not on my phone. I trust they mantioned it but they are "selling" the wand. They have had a couple years to make eye toy viable ( we have a ps2 one here) so far it is not what Natal appears to be going forI disagree. Natal's lifestyle vids match very much the EyeToy stuff. Milo is something different, but that's a particular software application. It's wrong to assume all Natal development will be centered around that sort of experience. Milo is just a way of showcasing the different Natal features in an original package. There's a little more scope in Natal for interacting with an on-screen character, although EyePet shows PSEye is still very capable.

At this juncture, MS have not shown any more real-world wonderment for Natal than Sony did with it's PR for EyeToy. Lots of possibilities, but what real products are there? Sony never followed up effectively. MS might well do, but at the same time Sony are going to be scrambling for products too. So if this camera tech does take off, they'll be much a like overall I think. Much depends on how advanced MS's techniques are, if they can get results that the competition can't match.

[patsu]

Sorry been replying while playing Red faction I'll listen tomorrow when not on my phone. I trust they mantioned it but they are "selling" the wand. They have had a couple years to make eye toy viable ( we have a ps2 one here) so far it is not what Natal appears to be going for

They are showing a tech demo. The final product may not be a wand. The product name may be Eye-something to keep up with the tradition, or may be driven by the app, or both (I have no idea).

For people who already have PS Eye, you will need the ultrasonic motion controller. If you don't have one yet, then you buy both together. You'll get:
* High precision 3D remote/mouse for sustained, general usage
* Full body, hands free motion tracking (2D based) for quick access/fun
* Color tracking, head tracking, drawing recognition, voice/speech recognition for specific application use. They can add more features or hardware later. The possibility is endless.

Not sure why you said it's only a wand. PS Eye is needed for all the above functions.

[goonergaz]

The PS3 motion demo was hardly done with the guys wrist. His gestures are fairly large. I'm assuming it could be calibrated for smaller gestures and it was just done that way for emphasis on stage.

eh? he showed with subtle movements how accurate it was, twisting the controller slowly to show how it 'identically' followed his movements - they then did the writing part and explained (again) how precise it was.

[Shifty Geezer]

eh? he showed with subtle movements how accurate it was, twisting the controller slowly to show how it 'identically' followed his movements - they then did the writing part and explained (again) how precise it was.
Indeed, 'submillimetre accuracy'! A little bit overkill, unless there's a 'zoom in' mode where fine motions will be needed. In fact i'd be very interested how accurate it is. If they could get the tech into a pen, they could have a stylus interface. Would be a great PC IO device, if you could use a stylus as a mouse, then to point at the screen directly.

[goonergaz]

Indeed, 'submillimetre accuracy'! A little bit overkill,

maybe, but then if it's more accurate does that mean it can 'lose' more 'bad' data? - in eyetoy games you have to overstate movements this will controller will MAKE SURE you don't have to!

[Crossbar]

Here are some analysts (http://www.edge-online.com/news/analyst-%E2%80%9Cmotion-control-interfaces-should-extend-cycle%E2%80%9D) take on the new controllers.

Lazard Capital Markets analyst Colin Sebastian has predicted that newly announced motion control interfaces will give this console generation extra legs.

Microsoft’s and Sony’s move to develop new motion sensing technology “should… provide the industry with its next growth driver and extend the console cycle,” said Sebastian in an investor note.

Earlier today, Xbox Live GM Marc Whitten said that Project Natal could add “years” to the Xbox 360’s lifecycle.

Cowen Group analyst Doug Creutz said he thought Sony’s announcement showed the most promise of the two.

“In contrast to previous years, we thought Sony actually did the best job among the hardware manufacturers… We felt Sony's gamer-oriented motion capture camera was superior to Microsoft's casual-oriented offering.”

I think they are right in their prediction that the controllers will help prolong the life of the consoles. The casual crowd usually start buying the consoles when they have come down in price and now they will have another incentive beside better graphics to keep buying.

One analyst claim that MS offering is more casual oriented and therefore not as good as Sonys. I don´t know if being casual is a bad thing in the long run if you are interested in making money, beside I think we haven´t seen the full feature set yet that MS will be offering. I expect them to have wands as well.

[obonicus]

Honestly I'm far from convinced that wii U 360 U ps3 has most of the potential video gamer market.
I think Natal (as a tech) has more chance of capturing casual market than Wii can.


I think that gamers overstate the appeal of their hobby. I think there's far more people who have absolutely no interest in videogames beyond solitaire/minesweeper as a time waster while at work. I do honestly know people who say that the Wii is as much console as they'd be interested in (mind you, they don't even own one). While you're right that there's more gamers than those represented by the consoles, I do believe that those who think the Wii is 'too much console' are effectively not interested in gaming as a hobby.

[liolio]

Actually MS already think at a higher level than video game only, it's really show with this tech and what they are putting together through the "live" extension.
They position themselves as provider of the living room entertainment, They are pulling things together nicely imho. Soon Ms will be able to do the same kind of ads Nintendo does, think about girls chatting together through Facebook/twitter then deciding to do some gym together, etc. then parents watching movies, The kid playing his hardcore game and latter on the whole family playing a party game.
By next year coming along Natal the NXE refresh MS is likely to provide something out of reach for Sony and Nintendo. Natal match this view of their business plan which imho goes as far as wanted to make the 360 a product worse a buy even if you don't really inted to play.

[Danalys]

Just had alittle thought about the Natal driving demonstration. They weren't feeding the stearing wheel. Very hard to tell just how clinched someones hands are with no physical object. They could just sell a wheel like the Wii wheel that could be tracked.

Something else. What happens in sword fighting if you get parried? how long does your character take to recover to your hand position. Could you quicken that time by acting out the effect of being parried?

In FPS I figure it should work like a mouse with a button click to take the mouse off the desk so to speak.

Those last two aply to all three systems.

[liolio]

Just had alittle thought about the Natal driving demonstration. They weren't feeding the stearing wheel. Very hard to tell just how clinched someones hands are with no physical object. They could just sell a wheel like the Wii wheel that could be tracked.
Honestly even if it works, it's really intended to supa casual gamers, best use of this tech in a driving game would be to allow sixaxis kind of use of 360 standard controller.

[Shifty Geezer]

By next year coming along Natal the NXE refresh MS is likely to provide something out of reach for Sony and Nintendo.Why out of reach? Everything you've described is either in development or available, or at least doable, on PS3. And Nintendo aren't particularly interested. It's a matter of the console companies actually producing the products and services. MS are in front, but Sony are managing to stay in the running even if always a step or two behind at the moment.

[Danalys]

I figure it's just how much money they are willing to throw at it. Eyepet from Sony looks rediclusly polished but I don't have confidence that they have other teams working on similar (in production values) applications for PSeye, or their remote. they demonstrated the virtual haircut for PSeye for example (much like the dress idea shown for Natal) ages ago, but nothing came of it. MS seem to have a concrete idea of how they want to intergrate Natal into NXE. Sony are still figuring out what they want to do. I don't particulary care about virtual hair cuts or dresses but some people may. That's the expanded audience.

[betan]

I think that gamers overstate the appeal of their hobby.

My statement has nothing to do with value and perception of gaming.

I think there's far more people who have absolutely no interest in videogames beyond solitaire/minesweeper as a time waster while at work. I do honestly know people who say that the Wii is as much console as they'd be interested in (mind you, they don't even own one). While you're right that there's more gamers than those represented by the consoles, I do believe that those who think the Wii is 'too much console' are effectively not interested in gaming as a hobby.

My point is that people who seem to (or claim to) have no interest in gaming shouldn't really be excluded from potential customer pool unless they have bad memories such as an assault by a monster console or something.

How many soccer moms were interested in video games before they bought wii?
Even among hardcore gamers, I know people who weren't interested in gaming before GTA3. Many gamers only "play" Madden/FIFA, Guitar Hero, DDR, Wii Sports or Wii Fit .

Who knows what tomorrow will bring into gaming. It's pretty clear the market is much larger than what it's now.

[obonicus]

My statement has nothing to do with value and perception of gaming.

I wasn't actually referring to you, my apologies.

I was referring to how I hear gamers whinge about how games need to be more and more accessible because only then will the whole world know the joys of videogames. I don't think that's going to happen. I don't believe in the universality of videogames, just like I don't believe in the universality of comic books -- they're not music or books or hell, even television/film.

And therefore I think the market is limited (and not in a clever 'limited by the Earth's population' way, either).


My point is that people who seem to (or claim to) have no interest in gaming shouldn't really be excluded from potential customer pool unless they have bad memories such as an assault by a monster console or something.


Sure, but I don't believe that the well Nintendo tapped for the Wii/DS is bottomless. I'm not even sure that the market tapped by Nintendo will continue to consume videogames the way, well, we do.


How many soccer moms were interested in video games before they bought wii?
Even among hardcore gamers, I know people who weren't interested in gaming before GTA3. Many gamers only "play" Madden/FIFA, Guitar Hero, DDR, Wii Sports or Wii Fit .


Sure. But for this, I think 'accessibility via simplicity' is overrated. I keep thinking to GT; while buying/setting up a racing wheel is extremely hardcore, and the controls themselves are anything but uncomplicated, they're immediately familiar to anyone who's driven a car (well, maybe a bit confusing if you've never driven stick). And so GT reaches a bunch of people who would not play videogames (mostly males, naturally) but who would very much like to pretend to drive $250k cars. And this is not a market that would be better served by simplifying the controls.


Who knows what tomorrow will bring into gaming. It's pretty clear the market is much larger than what it's now.

Sure, there's more market for consoles to tap into -- for instance, no inroads have been made at the WoW crowd or the Sims crowd or the popcap crowd. But I don't think any of these markets will be reached by simply dumbing down the experience more and more. Taking Japan as an example I believe that the reason Wii's growth has stagnated there isn't because the Wii is too hardcore, but because there's a limit to the number of housemoms who are interested in the idea of a 'casual' console. And this is a console bearing the Nintendo name!

[Scott_Arm]

The axis of the wand (not XYZ!), along the length of the wand in a linear ray. As a laser beam from a laser pointer.

There's a calibration tool in the Wii menus. This sets up the triangulation so the screen is mapped to motion. You can point on the screen keeping the XY position of the Wiimote static and rotating it on a point. You can rotate to point at any part of the screen and have the Wiimote cursor land pretty much there. It's sensitive enough that it picks up the wobble of the hand! Although range isn't great. You have to be close enough to the TV/sensor bar otherwise it jitters like crazy or loses input competely. Triangulation isn't truly pixel-accurate or screen-aware, but it's as good an approximation as we can hope to get, and is very effective, just as GPS has no idea what the Earth looks like, but can locate where you are on it to a very small fraction of the Earth's area.


I'll have to take a look at the calibration on my remotes. I've done it before, but I've never had it anywhere close to what you're describing. My screen is fairly small and I sit farther away than normal for a screen that size.

[Dregun]

Although I see the PS3 solution as a better proof of concept for games that require accuracy I do see a benift from Natal.

Imagine playing RockBand 4 and it tracks the movements you and your friends do with the mic, drums, guitars and transfers that to the characters on the screen! Your friend wants to lift his guitar behind his head during a solo and it is shown on the screen. They could add a whole slew of additions to games like Rockband once they capture the movements of those playing it.

How about extra points for being "Flashy"
How about extra points for going back to back between the guitar player and the singer.
How about extra points for dancing around on the stage during "other" members solo's
How about extra points for fan interaction (pointing to the crowed, pumping your fists etc)

Then again what would it take for the PS3 to be able to do the same thing? Could you just buy a "kit" that has different colored balls attached to individual straps that can be placed on people or objects for tracking? Would GH5 have different colored balls that screw into the top of the guitar, a microphone with a colored ball at the head and drum sticks that are colored? Then use the same techniques the PSEYE used 5 years ago to track the body?

I never liked the Wii because it was "gesture" based controlled, all it cared about was that you move the controller in a certain manner and the outcome was pre determined. Both of these systems seem to expand on the idea of motion controls as a way to replace a controller not just the way you use one.

[Scott_Arm]

eh? he showed with subtle movements how accurate it was, twisting the controller slowly to show how it 'identically' followed his movements - they then did the writing part and explained (again) how precise it was.

I watched the video. The movements he uses while writing for the main strokes are not subtle, but I don't doubt the precision of the controller and I said they probably did it that way for demonstration. You know, so people sitting further back know that he's actually moving.

[betan]

I wasn't actually referring to you, my apologies.

I was referring to how I hear gamers whinge about how games need to be more and more accessible because only then will the whole world know the joys of videogames.
I agree that's inaccurate and annoying but ...

I don't think that's going to happen. I don't believe in the universality of videogames, just like I don't believe in the universality of comic books -- they're not music or books or hell, even television/film.
And therefore I think the market is limited (and not in a clever 'limited by the Earth's population' way, either).
I strongly disagree here because video game medium is much more flexible and evolving (in multiple directions) faster than all others whether it's comic book or cinema.
The broad coverage also makes videogamers much less stereotypical especially now. The fact that I like video games doesn't really say anything about me, thus I'm not really comfortable with a strict binary devision of world population wrt video games. Even if I was, I don't see how the "interest division" has any asymptotic/long term value.

Sure, but I don't believe that the well Nintendo tapped for the Wii/DS is bottomless. I'm not even sure that the market tapped by Nintendo will continue to consume videogames the way, well, we do.

All true, but that as a completely different issue. The question should be whether or not Nintendo can continue to release products like Wii Sports and Wii Fit and expand.

Sure. But for this, I think 'accessibility via simplicity' is overrated. I keep thinking to GT; while buying/setting up a racing wheel is extremely hardcore, and the controls themselves are anything but uncomplicated, they're immediately familiar to anyone who's driven a car (well, maybe a bit confusing if you've never driven stick). And so GT reaches a bunch of people who would not play videogames (mostly males, naturally) but who would very much like to pretend to drive $250k cars. And this is not a market that would be better served by simplifying the controls.

I agree, there is much more to appeal of games than simplicity of controls. Otherwise all games would just use one button and be done with it. :)

Sure, there's more market for consoles to tap into -- for instance, no inroads have been made at the WoW crowd or the Sims crowd or the popcap crowd. But I don't think any of these markets will be reached by simply dumbing down the experience more and more. Taking Japan as an example I believe that the reason Wii's growth has stagnated there isn't because the Wii is too hardcore, but because there's a limit to the number of housemoms who are interested in the idea of a 'casual' console. And this is a console bearing the Nintendo name!

I think this is highly reasonable logic but didn't Wii actually start to stagnate before the release of Wii Fit and then jump back up? Before that you could make the same "not bottomless" argument, yet they did expand further in the end.

Yes, there is a limit to number of people who are interested in current Wii offerings, but that says nothing about future of Wii (or potential console gamers in general). Sure it's not easy to come up with a new Wii Sports like attraction every year, Nintendo possibly will fail to in that regard, but there will still be a product to suck in even more people into console gaming.

[goonergaz]

I watched the video. The movements he uses while writing for the main strokes are not subtle, but I don't doubt the precision of the controller and I said they probably did it that way for demonstration. You know, so people sitting further back know that he's actually moving.

I think that's down to the fact he's (effectively) writing on a 'whiteboard'

[whome0]

Project Natal tech specs always say RGB camera. What is RGB camera, is it just a standard webcam. After all any camera can read rgb colors from images. No one possible know an exact resolution and fps of the Natal rgb camera?

[liolio]

Interesingly Eurogamer (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/e3-ps3-wand-is-fun-like-wii-greenberg) think that MS could enter the market first
Microsoft and Sony offered no release dates for their technology, and Greenberg wouldn't budge on providing a hint. Presumably his company will enter the market first, as developer kits have been sent out this week and Project Natal is finished hardware. Nevertheless, both could be at least two years' away.

[DrJay24]

Project Natal tech specs always say RGB camera. What is RGB camera, is it just a standard webcam. After all any camera can read rgb colors from images. No one possible know an exact resolution and fps of the Natal rgb camera?

One of the sensors is an RGB camera, there are two more (distance and mic array).

[dobwal]

Here are some analysts (http://www.edge-online.com/news/analyst-%E2%80%9Cmotion-control-interfaces-should-extend-cycle%E2%80%9D) take on the new controllers.


I think they are right in their prediction that the controllers will help prolong the life of the consoles. The casual crowd usually start buying the consoles when they have come down in price and now they will have another incentive beside better graphics to keep buying.

One analyst claim that MS offering is more casual oriented and therefore not as good as Sonys. I don´t know if being casual is a bad thing in the long run if you are interested in making money, beside I think we haven´t seen the full feature set yet that MS will be offering. I expect them to have wands as well.

I think the more casual oriented the better the mass appeal. I don't think that motion controllers will take off with the hardcore crowd until someone takes a big top notch title and incorporate a motion controller scheme that is highly revolutionary which totally breaks down the barriers of limitation presented by traditional controllers. Meaning it not only has to look cool, the mechanics has to be highly functional and move beyond whats possible with current controllers.

[Butta]

Here's what I would like to know... what specifically could be done in Natal that could not be done with the PSEye? Hardware wise, do we really know for sure that this thing is that different? Seems like Microsoft claims the magic is in the software, specs for the camera don't seem to be known? Also, looking at EyePet wow PSEye still has a few tricks! In fact, I found that trailer more impressive than anything for Natal so far.

[Shifty Geezer]

Here's what I would like to know... what specifically could be done in Natal that could not be done with the PSEye? Hardware wise, do we really know for sure that this thing is that different? Seems like Microsoft claims the magic is in the software, specs for the camera don't seem to be known?They have depth perception. PSEye doesn't. This means a punch directly towards the camera will be perceived as a surface moving towards the screen correctly on Natal, whereas it will be perceived as an increasing area of brightness on PSEye. This also means, for example, you could have a pointer track a Natal user's hand and only activate when they reach towards the screen, passing a distance threshold, whereas on PSEye you'd need a different activation system. In PSMC's case, it's a remote button press.

[tha_con]

I still feel as though Natal is just too "concept" right now. All of their tech demo's were extremely limited (simply tracking body movements and sweeping motions, not much outside of what the PS Eye could do for motion tracking).

The Paint and Dodgeball were probably the worst things they could have shown me, as a consumer, because it displayed little accuracy (or at least how little was required).

I also don't know how well menu browsing will be from other areas. What if there are multiple options on screen, is there going to be a pointer to match my hand? What if there are multiple players, how will it handle that? There seems to be a lot of ground work that wasn't shown.

I think the system has a lot of potential, but I think it also has a long way to go before it turns into something that can make 'waves' in the gaming industry.


I think Sony's solution could do well for them, but they will have to take the appropriate approach to it. If they want it to be successful, then they will absolutely have to bundle it with each and every PS3 that is sold on the market when it comes out. It will not succeed if it is left as another "PSEye" or "Eyetoy". It just won't stand a chance. Same goes for Natal.

[Crossbar]

Here's what I would like to know... what specifically could be done in Natal that could not be done with the PSEye? Hardware wise, do we really know for sure that this thing is that different? Seems like Microsoft claims the magic is in the software, specs for the camera don't seem to be known? Also, looking at EyePet wow PSEye still has a few tricks! In fact, I found that trailer more impressive than anything for Natal so far.

I think it´s pretty clever done how they establish the surface where the Eyepet can play around. The user smacks his hand in the floor (or table or whatever), the camera registers where the hand stops and the microphone registers the sound and the PS3 calculates the distance to the hand. Voila you´ve established a 3d space to work with.

[Shifty Geezer]

Here's a similar Augmented Reality application on PSP
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?p=1300185

You have to find creatures around the home, and catch them by interacting. Then battle with other players. It's a good showcase of what camera tech can do (using a capture card for reference).

[patsu]

Interesingly Eurogamer (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/e3-ps3-wand-is-fun-like-wii-greenberg) think that MS could enter the market first

I suspect MS will release in fall 2009 also, using the less ambitious 3DV technology if necessarily to claim some market share early.

Still... Sony and Nintendo are already in the market with a working motion sensing product (one with full body motion sensing, the other one owns the space). So MS will enter the market last. They may help to popularize it further though !

I also think that both Sony and Nintendo could change outdoor (duh... portable) gaming. They both have portable devices in the market. The ultrasonic controller, PS2 level camera only solution, and even the Vitality sensor sound suspicously portable -- if done right. I have always hated the PSP screen under bright sunlight. Perhaps some other games can be invented for picnics and camping trips.

[thatdude90210]

Interesingly Eurogamer (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/e3-ps3-wand-is-fun-like-wii-greenberg) think that MS could enter the market first
That might not be surprising. While MS has given many journalists chances to try out Natal hands on, Sony hasn't done the same (no reports that I've seen). Could be it's not as user friendly yet, or that the theory that it was a last minute response to Natal holds some water.

[liolio]

I suspect MS will release in fall 2009 also, using the less ambitious 3DV technology if necessarily to claim some market share early.

Still... Sony and Nintendo are already in the market with a working motion sensing product (one with full body motion sensing, the other one owns the space). So MS will enter the market last. They may help to popularize it further though !

I also think that both Sony and Nintendo could change outdoor (duh... portable) gaming. They both have portable devices in the market. The ultrasonic controller, PS2 level camera only solution, and even the Vitality sensor sound suspicously portable -- if done right. I have always hated the PSP screen under bright sunlight. Perhaps some other games can be invented for picnics and camping trips.
I don't believe so. I would put my bet on the second half of 2010 (actually end Q3 early Q4 would be my favored option).
Eye pet won't make PSeye a thread to Nintendo or MS shares anytime soon, it's been here for a while actually. For Sony motion sensing tech MS (via Shane Kim) simply doesn't believe Sony will manage to pull this out by spring 2010.
Clearly the most likely thing to happen is both product launching head to head.

[patsu]

I don't believe so. I would put my bet on the second half of 2010 (actually end Q3 early Q4 would be my favored option).
Eye pet won't make PSeye a thread to Nintendo or MS shares anytime soon, it's been here for a while actually. For Sony motion sensing tech MS (via Shane Kim) simply doesn't believe Sony will manage to pull this out by spring 2010.
Clearly the most likely thing to happen is both product launching head to head.

It's just a convenient way to drum up buzz -- if they want to. They have the tech anyway. Many of the demoed applications can be done with a 3DV/PS Eye solution (depending on how hard it is to port to and maintain on 360).

Not sure if Sony will drum up PS Eye or any other motion sensing application via firmware update.

[one]

Interesingly Eurogamer (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/e3-ps3-wand-is-fun-like-wii-greenberg) think that MS could enter the market firstIn this E3 2009 interview, Hirai says the target launch date of the new motion controller for PS3 is Spring 2010. He thinks accuracy is already there in the hardware side, but it needs good software too.

http://av.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/series/rt/20090604_212396.html

[Naboomagnoli]

It's just a convenient way to drum up buzz -- if they want to. They have the tech anyway. Many of the demoed applications can be done with a 3DV/PS Eye solution (depending on how hard it is to port to and maintain on 360).

Not sure if Sony will drum up PS Eye or any other motion sensing application via firmware update.

Most of the demoed applications, the ones that are genuine and not staged, are rather primitive compared to the grand concept of Milo, which is miles (arf) away from being anything like the trailer. Talking to a boy who just nods blankly or swinging your arms around like Godzilla would be rather underwhelming compared to the H.A.L-esque concept trailer.

That's the thing about these date estimations - Natal made its concept clear and have sounded out developers, but the technology itself isn't ready and properly working yet; the PS3motes are clearly ready to roll, but just need some Wii games made multi-plat or some decent PSN games to get the ball rolling.

[Scott_Arm]

The thing about both of these, is it doesn't matter how finished the hardware is as much as the software. Unless there is a compelling software package (Punch your boss in the face) ready at launch, and some others immediately on the horizon, I don't think there will be much interest.

My point is that even with the hardware were 100% finished right now, you wouldn't see quick release because software takes time and neither demonstrated anything close to a finished software package that could be bundled.

[patsu]

Unless there is a compelling software package (Punch your boss in the face)

In Japan, it'd be "Flip a girl's skirt with wind generated by bare hands" (TM).


... which reminds me. After the LBP Internet publishing integration, Sony should use LittleBigPlanet to allow users to create PS Eye application. Let me build the above apps (Everyone will have their own favorites). It already allows me to capture PS Eye video in-game, now keep the channel open and add interactive video elements to it.

For crying out loud, they should do something about Home and PS Eye too. These two apps are supposed to be the user-generated content flag ships.

[liolio]

In this E3 2009 interview, Hirai says the target launch date of the new motion controller for PS3 is Spring 2010. He thinks accuracy is already there in the hardware side, but it needs good software too.

http://av.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/series/rt/20090604_212396.html
Say stated the same during the conference, neither eurogamer neither Ms think to believe them that's it.

[obonicus]

Say stated the same during the conference, neither eurogamer neither Ms think to believe them that's it.

Eurogamer suffers from the same problem all gaming journalists do: they don't know anything. I'm slightly suspicious that this will, indeed, be delayed until they have a software lineup, but as joker454 pointed out he already knows people who have been toying with the prototype. And certainly it's not in MS' best interest to say anything positive about their competitors.

[Tap In]

IGN Milo hands on (http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/991/991348p1.html)

... snip... And with that we were out of time. But at the very least, Molyneux proved that the demo shown in the Microsoft (http://games.ign.com/objects/025/025169.html) press conference video wasn't completely canned. Though none of us got to see the picture-scanning segment or the aforementioned fish-skipping moments from Monday, Milo did react to most of what we did in a believable way when we did it "properly."

Obviously, there's still a long ways to go before Milo graduates out of the "Uber Seaman" that he is now, and I'm also curious to know what level of influence a nearby Lionhead rep had directly over the demo itself -- as attached to the Xbox 360 running Milo, was a laptop with a read-out/ eyes-on view of people using the camera. It was never really clarified what the nearby Lionhead rep was doing to and with the Laptop and the information being sent to it, by the game -- outside of verifying new people entering the camera range and initializing some of the various moments in the demo.

Even so, the potential for this game and how you could ultimately interact with the character is very high, and I'm excited to see where it goes next.

Oh, and one other bit of info before I go -- when asked what sort of game Milo will eventually be once it's out of the testing/demo phase, he said: "Two Words: Super Tamagochi."

IGN Natal hands on (http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/989/989269p1.html)

...snip... All in all, I found Project Natal to be quite refreshing. It's nowhere near the gimmicky device I originally took it for and the fact that it works already on a retail Xbox 360 (Burnout was running on an "out of the store" model, no debugs or special systems required) says a lot about its current stage of development.

To say that I'm anxious to see where Microsoft, and it's horde of third party developers, takes his next is an understatement.

[Naboomagnoli]

Something that has been dug up elsewhere..
Head tracking without IR glasses (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFN8cW1mSVY)

And according to Joystiq the Eyepet trailer consists of genuine gameplay, and is not pre-rendered (as I had assumed given the quality of animation).

http://www.joystiq.com/2009/06/04/impressions-eyepet-ps3/

[bkilian]

The axis of the wand (not XYZ!), along the length of the wand in a linear ray. As a laser beam from a laser pointer.

There's a calibration tool in the Wii menus. This sets up the triangulation so the screen is mapped to motion. You can point on the screen keeping the XY position of the Wiimote static and rotating it on a point. You can rotate to point at any part of the screen and have the Wiimote cursor land pretty much there. It's sensitive enough that it picks up the wobble of the hand! Although range isn't great. You have to be close enough to the TV/sensor bar otherwise it jitters like crazy or loses input competely. Triangulation isn't truly pixel-accurate or screen-aware, but it's as good an approximation as we can hope to get, and is very effective, just as GPS has no idea what the Earth looks like, but can locate where you are on it to a very small fraction of the Earth's area.

Okay, yeah, you can do pointing like that, moving your arm more like mouse, as EyeToy does it. Natal will be fine for interfaces. I was talking about a pointing device as a handgun though. For playing a shooter where you hold the gun, like a lightgun, it needs something extra (I assume). And likewise baseball/tennis, I think. In golf, the rotation of the club may be inferred from arm positions if you hold it right. I admit I'm guessing at this point looking at the tech and demos and seeing what wasn't shown. ;) I would love to be proved wrong. A single camera system that can do the whole Wii thing would be perfectly elegant.

Regards lag, EyeToy had a consderable lag. I'd expect a couple of frames minimum with any imaging based device, though if the camera is faster than the screen refresh (PSEye's 120 Hz mode) that may be less.Aah, the amazing human brain. What you're seeing is the effect of a positive feedback loop. You move your hand, the pointer moves on the screen, your brain translates that into how you moved your hand, and then sends the signal to your hand about how to move it some more to reach the point you want to reach. You _think_ the ray from the controller is pointing to a specific point on the screen, but it doesn't have to even be close.

You have the same thing using a mouse. We "instinctively" are able to position a mouse with pinpoint accuracy on the screen, but the pointer on the screen and the position of the mouse are not that closely bound.

I strapped a laser pointer onto the side of my Wii remote yesterday and tried it. The laser pointer dot and the dot on the screen had almost no relation to each other. If I placed the laser pointer dot on the place on the screen I wanted it pointed to, the screen pointer was nowhere to be seen.

[thatdude90210]

I strapped a laser pointer onto the side of my Wii remote yesterday and tried it. The laser pointer dot and the dot on the screen had almost no relation to each other. If I placed the laser pointer dot on the place on the screen I wanted it pointed to, the screen pointer was nowhere to be seen.

In the game Ghost Squad for the Wii, there's calibration screen that takes just the upper left corner and the lower right corner to calibrate. If I have the sensor bar in just the right position, for me that's the upper middle of the TV, it's surprisingly accurate. I can pretty much shoot by just aiming like a real gun while using the "Nyko perfect shot" without using a screen cursor. Edit: oh, and have to stand in the right position.

[bkilian]

I still feel as though Natal is just too "concept" right now. All of their tech demo's were extremely limited (simply tracking body movements and sweeping motions, not much outside of what the PS Eye could do for motion tracking).

The Paint and Dodgeball were probably the worst things they could have shown me, as a consumer, because it displayed little accuracy (or at least how little was required). I agree, I was waiting for the other shoe to drop. They could have done both demos using the existing XBox Live Vision Camera. I was hoping that at the end of the "lets use huge motions to slop paint around" demo he actually just signed his name onto the canvas by drawing in the air, but it didn't happen. It would have been an awesome ending to the demo though.
I suspect MS will release in fall 2009 also, using the less ambitious 3DV technology if necessarily to claim some market share early.

Still... Sony and Nintendo are already in the market with a working motion sensing product (one with full body motion sensing, the other one owns the space). So MS will enter the market last. They may help to popularize it further though !Uhh, the live vision camera has a number of games that use motion sensing as a control. So MS is in essentially the same position as Sony currently. Unfortunately, without studio like lighting (I'd like to see a living room as well lit as the one in the EyePet video) they both are pretty crap. Mine always has issues telling me apart from the background.

[Naboomagnoli]

Eyepet is played in the second half of the vid here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/8083046.stm

[_phil_]

PSeye has low light sensitivity , high refresh rate (120hz) and 4 mics.It's much a better cam than Live vision.

[liolio]

IGN Milo hands on (http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/991/991348p1.html)



IGN Natal hands on (http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/989/989269p1.html)
Ms will be given a lot of credit for their tech, every return so far has been positive to super enthusiastic. It looks like they are carefully selecting people allowed to test it.
So far I didn't read any hand on experience from the french sites I consult except for one site who managed to grab to journalists from a pretty big news channel (LCI for the french).
Their enthusiasm is quiet communicative. Whenever this launch it will be in the top hot news of most magazine, evening news, etc. When this will launch the whole world will be watching, this goes so much further than video games.
For those interest the vid is here (http://www.gameblog.fr/news_9657_e3-09-gameblog-tv-project-natal-nos-impressions)

I think in regard to growing number of returns about Natal and what it seems MS managed to pull out I would as far as saying that the trend on this board is on the verge of being petty.

This thing is big, I hope to learn more about it soon ( and soon won't be soon enough).

[Shifty Geezer]

...
You have the same thing using a mouse. We "instinctively" are able to position a mouse with pinpoint accuracy on the screen, but the pointer on the screen and the position of the mouse are not that closely bound.

I strapped a laser pointer onto the side of my Wii remote yesterday and tried it. The laser pointer dot and the dot on the screen had almost no relation to each other. If I placed the laser pointer dot on the place on the screen I wanted it pointed to, the screen pointer was nowhere to be seen.
That's a valid point and an interesting test. However, I'm guessing the relative postitioning can be fairly accurate as the gun attachment offers the player a line of targeting. It'd be very offputting if looking along the gun, the shot landed miles off the mark.

Even if Wii lacks the definition, it's not beyond the technology to get a good mapping between a remote and the screen through triangulation. Especially with several tracking systems as found in PSMC.

[tha_con]

Ms will be given a lot of credit for their tech, every return so far has been positive to super enthusiastic. It looks like they are carefully selecting people allowed to test it.
So far I didn't read any hand on experience from the french sites I consult except for one site who managed to grab to journalists from a pretty big news channel (LCI for the french).
Their enthusiasm is quiet communicative. Whenever this launch it will be in the top hot news of most magazine, evening news, etc. When this will launch the whole world will be watching, this goes so much further than video games.
For those interest the vid is here (http://www.gameblog.fr/news_9657_e3-09-gameblog-tv-project-natal-nos-impressions)

I think in regard to growing number of returns about Natal and what it seems MS managed to pull out I would as far as saying that the trend on this board is on the verge of being petty.

This thing is big, I hope to learn more about it soon ( and soon won't be soon enough).

I think that also may have a lot to do with the press (strangely) not being allowed to use Sony's motion tech. This may be glowing, but we really need head to head comparisons from the enthusiast press before we start saying "this thing is big".

Afterall, Natal has had rather limited demo time, right? They've played Burnout, which essentially just recognizes a "circular" gesture and takes that to be the steering wheel, and some of the other mini-games. I think it's a bit pre-emptive to start getting excited over glowing reviews without first seeing any negative press to express limitations and or problems it may have. The whole experience seems to be very guided and structured right now, with only certain games being there and certain types of experiences.

I'm reserving my judgement for both products until I have hands on time with them.

[Scott_Arm]

I think that also may have a lot to do with the press (strangely) not being allowed to use Sony's motion tech. This may be glowing, but we really need head to head comparisons from the enthusiast press before we start saying "this thing is big".

Afterall, Natal has had rather limited demo time, right? They've played Burnout, which essentially just recognizes a "circular" gesture and takes that to be the steering wheel, and some of the other mini-games. I think it's a bit pre-emptive to start getting excited over glowing reviews without first seeing any negative press to express limitations and or problems it may have. The whole experience seems to be very guided and structured right now, with only certain games being there and certain types of experiences.

I'm reserving my judgement for both products until I have hands on time with them.

Yeah, one of the demo writeups for Natal the guy described trying to mess with burnout by standing on his toes or kneeling down and it still seemed to recognize his hands, no matter how he postured his body. So the skeletal tracking seems to be working, which is a good sign even if the game uses only a primitive gesture. The "breakout" game demo also seemed to demonstrate good skeletal tracking, according to most of the write ups. The only thing that was noted in one of them was jumping didn't work, but that was because jumping wasn't animated on the game. It registered on the PC that was displaying the depth information. I'm losing track of which journos wrote what.

[RobertR1]

I was watching the elephant thing last night. However, this time I was watching the presenter talking and keeping a close eye on what his avatar was doing. The presenter did a lot of hand gestures and such when explaining his presentation. Watch it carefully and you can see just how well his avatar is responding to all these body/joint movements. The first time out, everyone focuses on the painting but watch it again and ignore the painting part this time. Just watch his body movements being repliacted by the system.

[Tap In]

As has been speculated Rare is working on Project Natal

No Banjo Kazooie at E3? No Viva Pinata? Blame Project Natal.

We've been looking for Rare at E3. Microsoft's Shane Kim, corporate v. p. at Microsoft for Xbox 360 strategy and business development, didn't exactly tell us where they are, but he did tell us what they're up to.

"Rare is intimately involved with Project Natal in a number of different dimensions," Kim said, referring to Microsoft's controller-free game control set-up that's been the buzz of E3. "They're doing an awful lot of work, even outside the traditional game space, I would say. Unfortunately I can't go into a lot of detail about that. Rare is alive and well and really having a broader impact on the entire Xbox world than just doing the games they traditionally have in the past."

Rare's most recent publicly shown projects were last year's Banjo Kazooie: Nuts and Bolts and Viva Pinata: Trouble in Paradise. Rare also created the Avatar system launched last last year across all Xbox 360s


http://kotaku.com/5279213/microsoft-...natal-projects (http://kotaku.com/5279213/microsoft-rare-working-on-numerous-natal-projects)

[dabomb665m]

I was watching the elephant thing last night. However, this time I was watching the presenter talking and keeping a close eye on what his avatar was doing. The presenter did a lot of hand gestures and such when explaining his presentation. Watch it carefully and you can see just how well his avatar is responding to all these body/joint movements. The first time out, everyone focuses on the painting but watch it again and ignore the painting part this time. Just watch his body movements being repliacted by the system.

If you are talking about the promo video... I personally take everything in it with a grain of salt. Those videos could be doctored to make the whole experience seem complete, flawless and all sorts of magical. My skepticism comes from a segment near the beginning of the video where the kid "scans" his skateboard. His hands are clearly in the way of the board art since he must hold the board... but the "copied" board that was displayed on the xbox's TV was a perfect picture of the board (without the boy's hands).

These little details plus the too perfect to be true demos in the promo vid really bother me. I'll believe it when I see it.

[liolio]

As has been speculated Rare is working on Project Natal
viva pinata could be a nice trial for natal :)

[RobertR1]

If you are talking about the promo video... I personally take everything in it with a grain of salt. Those videos could be doctored to make the whole experience seem complete, flawless and all sorts of magical. My skepticism comes from a segment near the beginning of the video where the kid "scans" his skateboard. His hands are clearly in the way of the board art since he must hold the board... but the "copied" board that was displayed on the xbox's TV was a perfect picture of the board (without the boy's hands).

These little details plus the too perfect to be true demos in the promo vid really bother me. I'll believe it when I see it.

No. The on stage live demo with the guy painting the elephant.

[patsu]

of returns about Natal and what it seems MS managed to pull out I would as far as saying that the trend on this board is on the verge of being petty.

I actually like the z camera and the 3D mesh technology behind it.

But the Milo concept video, including the IGN impression TapIn posted, show that it is as I feared so far. You have to speak "properly". It's a "long way to go before the 'Uber Seaman' that he is now". The IGN writer was a little suspicious at the nearby Lionhead staff too. >_<

Test out the speech tech on Windows yourself. Btw, can you touch Milo and have him react like EyePet now ? (I have no clue).

EDIT:
Uhh, the live vision camera has a number of games that use motion sensing as a control. So MS is in essentially the same position as Sony currently. Unfortunately, without studio like lighting (I'd like to see a living room as well lit as the one in the EyePet video) they both are pretty crap. Mine always has issues telling me apart from the background.

Doesn't contradict what I said though. MS is last to the game. The Vision camera games are much less recognized compared to Wii and EyeToy.

[Silent_Buddha]

No. The on stage live demo with the guy painting the elephant.

Yup I remember that also where it was able to recognize and display something as small as his fingers bending to mimic the lips of the Elephant chewing on grass or whatever.

Regards,
SB

[liolio]

Yup I remember that also where it was able to recognize and display something as small as his fingers bending to mimic the lips of the Elephant chewing on grass or whatever.

Regards,
SB
I vaguely remember this "elephant thingy" but I can't remember where, it's a vid available on live (I watched them yesterday) or it's possible to find on Gametriler for example?

[RobertR1]

I vaguely remember this "elephant thingy" but I can't remember where, it's a vid available on live (I watched them yesterday) or it's possible to find on Gametriler for example?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ie02k3eAvxY

[Silent_Buddha]

I vaguely remember this "elephant thingy" but I can't remember where, it's a vid available on live (I watched them yesterday) or it's possible to find on Gametriler for example?

http://www.gametrailers.com/video/e3-09-project-natal/50184?type=flv

It's at about 3:10 and on. It's not perfect, and probably not enough to be used for fine control at the moment IMO. But it is able to track the movement of at least half a finger. The end of the trunk also shows fingers every once in a while but appears to pop in and out, not sure if this is due to a limitation of the system or the program is trying to make it easier to do an artistic sillouette. At points you can even see his thumb extend.

Also if you watch (about 0:39). The fingers of his Avatar mimic his fingers as he's doing the demo. If his fingers are straight the Avatar's fingers are straight. If he has his fingers curled as he does a lot. Then the Avatar's fingers are curled. The hands and fingers even clutch and pull up his pants as he does in RL.

Unfortunately once he starts painting the fingers stay clenched no matter what it appears.

Regards,
SB

[RobertR1]

http://www.gametrailers.com/video/e3-09-project-natal/50184?type=flv

Unfortunately once he starts painting the fingers stay clenched no matter what it appears.

Regards,
SB

I noticed that also. I wonder if it's jsut the animation piece not done like the ricochet demo where jumping wasn't animated but it was showing up on the laptop displaying captured information. Also, when he's making the leaves on the tree and has his fingers out, the hand on the avatar doesn't seem to be clinched. I might have to watch that bit again.

[patsu]

Why do they need to animate jump specially if the sensor is supposed to track real time ? It's just dots anyway whether it's standing, sitting, sleeping or jumping right ?

[Scott_Arm]

Why do they need to animate jump specially if the sensor is supposed to track real time ? It's just dots anyway whether it's standing, sitting, sleeping or jumping right ?

I don't think they need to animate it, it's just that the avatar is probably drawn at a specific spot on the screen, so if you jump, the avatar will copy your posture and movement, but won't actually move up on the screen.

[patsu]

If the avatar is not a 1-to-1 mapping of the actual data, you may not be able to judge Natal's performance based on the avatar animation. You'll have to look at the raw data (or processed data within Natal itself).

[obonicus]

I noticed that also. I wonder if it's jsut the animation piece not done like the ricochet demo where jumping wasn't animated but it was showing up on the laptop displaying captured information. Also, when he's making the leaves on the tree and has his fingers out, the hand on the avatar doesn't seem to be clinched. I might have to watch that bit again.

I think that it's speculating your hands based on your motions, so if you're waving your wrist around it'll assume your hand is open, and if you're just moving your hand it's flicking your fingers?

Though... maybe it tracks whether your hand is open-closed and is just guessing wrong? I'm not sure, when he starts making the leaves on the tree, when he's waving his fingers more it seems like the avatar is too -- but when he starts just waving his wrist it maybe looks like the avatar isn't waving the fingers either. I could be wrong, since it's not zoomed in then.

One thing I've been wondering about, and no one's really addressed... for a full-body painting program, if it can track 48 skeletal points it's not going to waste 10+ on your fingers. But what if say, there's an application where it assumes that you're sitting on the couch and so your lower body/hands aren't important? Does the camera have enough resolution to make out your fingers then? Maybe not every knuckles, but enough to know whether one is extended or not? I'm assuming it can switch skeletal models, of course.

[Brad Grenz]

Yup I remember that also where it was able to recognize and display something as small as his fingers bending to mimic the lips of the Elephant chewing on grass or whatever.

Regards,
SB

The elephant thing was just detecting his silhouette at that point. Hardly amazing from a technology stand point.

[patsu]

I think they meant throughout the entire demo. The z camera technology has solid foundation. They should be able to do some cool things with it ! The 3D imaging portion would be useful for Playstation Home :)

The unknown is its response time and resolution. We'll have to wait patiently for MS to release those info. They should be pretty competitive given that Sony and Wii are old hands at this.

[patsu]

Very informative Nintendo discussion about the making of Wii Motion Plus: http://us.wii.com/iwata_asks/wiimotionplus/vol1_page1.jsp

Worth a read.

[Silent_Buddha]

If the avatar is not a 1-to-1 mapping of the actual data, you may not be able to judge Natal's performance based on the avatar animation. You'll have to look at the raw data (or processed data within Natal itself).

One of the articles mentioned that the avatar didn't jump even though he could see the analysis screens where the system saw him jumping just fine.

So basically the avatar was just not allowed to go vertical. I'm also pretty sure if he had tried to run side to side his avatar wouldn't have left the rough middle of the screen. Basically to keep you in the boundaries of the breakout "game."

Regards,
SB

[betan]

So you make a full body motion "breakout game" but decided against jumping because of boundaries.

Yep that makes total sense.

[Tap In]

So you make a full body motion "breakout game" but decided against jumping because of boundaries.

Yep that makes total sense.

yea.... everything that is and will ever be possible with this system was shown to us in a 20 minute controlled demonstration of possibilities before SDKs were even in developers hands.

[betan]

yea.... everything that is and will ever be possible with this system was shown to us in a 20 minute controlled demonstration of possibilities before SDKs were even in developers hands.

Please stop kidding yourself. They have demoed nothing, nothing at all that is impressive enough that a responsive 2.5D camera deserves. (Note that I don't even care about resolution and accuracy)

Hell, let's forget impressiveness, how about some obvious implementations like better XMB controls, 3d object scanning or an actual full body motion sports game, be it yoga or boxing, or even jump counter would suffice.

And this is from fricking biggest software company of the world with pretty good R&D department.

Driving controls behind the close doors? Why is it behind the close doors to selected press members? Seriously why would a working, responsive control scheme require so secrecy and information filtering? It's not like they are not allowed to write about the system, which is the case for most behind the door showings.

Total bullshit. You go ahead be optimistic as much as you want for favorite console's gadget, or find idiotic press articles with no technical proficiency, only official press release language, whatever. But please, please for God's sake stop trying to make people believers based on nothing but imagination (aka potential).

You know, people have a right to be a little skeptical and wait for slightly convincing demos or even technical specs.

I'm really curious, which one of you here actually got what you were hoping for after hearing zdepth camera rumors?

The only advantage MS has right now,is that their hard tech is not out, thus not fixed, and can evolve in time, unlike say Sony which is stuck with PSEye.

But what MS demoed is nothing but a joke, in addition to ultra bullshit "concept videos", mind you.
Yeay for imagination!

[patsu]

One of the articles mentioned that the avatar didn't jump even though he could see the analysis screens where the system saw him jumping just fine.

So basically the avatar was just not allowed to go vertical. I'm also pretty sure if he had tried to run side to side his avatar wouldn't have left the rough middle of the screen. Basically to keep you in the boundaries of the breakout "game."


What I meant was: Regardless of what they do with the avatar, if the dataset has been fudged by the avatar developer, we may not be able to tell Natal's full capability by looking at the avatar. You want to look at the original data instead.

...

Wow, that's too harsh. The z camera and 3D mesh system should be working in lab condition. It might crash and have limited scope, but the basic principle should be verifiable now.

[Shifty Geezer]

The elephant thing was just detecting his silhouette at that point. Hardly amazing from a technology stand point.It was perfect background removal. Stand in front of a webcam with all the gubbins of a room behind and have it cut out your silhouette, then come back and say it's still no big deal! Imaging with the depth dimension is an amazing technology. It's like bluescreening without the blue screen.

[Tap In]

They have demoed nothing,

it was sarcasm

I was implying that maybe you should wait before saying what it can and or will not be able to do in a game.

[catisfit]

It was perfect background removal. Stand in front of a webcam with all the gubbins of a room behind and have it cut out your silhouette, then come back and say it's still no big deal! Imaging with the depth dimension is an amazing technology. It's like bluescreening without the blue screen.

I see what you are saying, but you could do the same by imaging the background beforehand, if the background is stationary. For a much more advanced example, you can do the same by calculating motion between frames (I have forgotten the name of this technique). I worked alongside a team many years ago who were doing gait recognition - being able to identify people based on the way they walk. Regardless of background (including moving backgrounds), they were picking up the motion of people as they moved across the frame, with enough accuracy that they were talking about using it for CCTV identification of people in balaclavas.

The point is, even when the subjects stopped, they knew where they were based on the last recorded motion. The elephant could be done using this technique quite easily, and this was a long time ago using a standard camera.

I'm well aware that 2D depth imaging as Natal does has other benefits over this old technique, but I'm just pointing out that the elephant is not one of them. As for greenscreen, well yes if you're talking about weather presenters, but cinematic greenscreen often has objects with which the actors interact (http://paprmh.googlepages.com/gsgmask.jpg/gsgmask-full.jpg), which would throw up issues for a 2D depth camera. Plus of course there's resolution issues with 2D depth imaging.

[Shifty Geezer]

I see what you are saying, but you could do the same by imaging the background beforehand, if the background is stationary.Yes, but that's generally not very effective, as voiced by the developers of EyeToy over "In The Movies", and then evidenced in "In The Movies"!

The point is, even when the subjects stopped, they knew where they were based on the last recorded motion. The elephant could be done using this technique quite easily, and this was a long time ago using a standard camera.Well, if it can, no-one has done it wokring well in the living-room environment with a webcam. Although this wasn't in the living-room environment either actually. There was a lot of space behind them. Throw in a setee at closer range and the resolving power becomes reduced, though I expect it to still work very well. It was intersting seeing the 'warp' of the silhouette though.

[ShadowRunner]

It was perfect background removal. Stand in front of a webcam with all the gubbins of a room behind and have it cut out your silhouette, then come back and say it's still no big deal! Imaging with the depth dimension is an amazing technology. It's like bluescreening without the blue screen.

Was thinking about possible solutions to this with standard 2d cams. Would it not be possible to take a image of the room before anyone is in front of the camera, then when someone is there you could remove the background by comparing the image of the empty room with the current view. In theory any changes to the original empty room image could be detected and you would have a silhouette of any changes.

EDIT: Nevermind catisfit already made that point.

[Shifty Geezer]

That's how "In The Movies" tried, and it failed. The EyeToy people said they thought it would fail. It's not as easy as just subtracting the backgroun. You need a completely stable environment, or some serious processing to determine what is background and what isn't by some form of context.

[Arwin]

That's how "In The Movies" tried, and it failed. The EyeToy people said they thought it would fail. It's not as easy as just subtracting the backgroun. You need a completely stable environment, or some serious processing to determine what is background and what isn't by some form of context.

But not for that reason I think? I think they pointed out that the Vision camera (which has no additional features, but is just a basic webcam) in combination with the light-based processing they were doing wasn't the right way to do things.

[liolio]

I think Obonicus is right, I can't see ms waste resources on fingers themselves but it looks like they keep track of hands:
We graph 48 joints in your body and then those 48 joints are tracked in real-time, at 30 frames per second. So several for your head, shoulders, elbows, hands, feet...
In our case I feel like the points being track for the wrist and the hand are track together.
For finger I think (if Ms dare to implement) they should rely on 2D shape recognition, the PSP can do this, even in a case where the Natal hard has its hands full it wouldn't not be that hard (or costly perf wize) to have the xenon process the data retrieve from Natal (say the part of screen supposed to your hands).

[betan]

But not for that reason I think? I think they pointed out that the Vision camera (which has no additional features, but is just a basic webcam) in combination with the light-based processing they were doing wasn't the right way to do things.

How does this contradict Shifty? The simple method they are discussing is image based only.

[catisfit]

Yes, but that's generally not very effective, as voiced by the developers of EyeToy over "In The Movies", and then evidenced in "In The Movies"!

I know, that's why I gave a more advanced and realistic example.

Well, if it can, no-one has done it wokring well in the living-room environment with a webcam.

This was research for "worthy" applications like catching criminals, but it was using standard cameras and rudimentary CV techniques. I wasn't working on it directly and I haven't done any CV since, so I'm hardly current, but neither is the technology that it was running on. They were deliberately testing it in external environments with trees blowing in the wind, cars moving in the background etc and it held up very well.

[obonicus]

Are we assuming that if the camera can pick out the sillhouettes of someone's fingers it therefore can track them? Aren't we talking about entirely different techniques?

[Shifty Geezer]

This was research for "worthy" applications like catching criminals, but it was using standard cameras and rudimentary CV techniques. I wasn't working on it directly and I haven't done any CV since, so I'm hardly current, but neither is the technology that it was running on. They were deliberately testing it in external environments with trees blowing in the wind, cars moving in the background etc and it held up very well.Having not worked in this field or anything like, you're obviously way more clued up than me and i can only go by what I hear from other sources. In this case, why is "In The Movies" so poor and why do the EyeToy people asy it can't be done? Are they missing something?

[Scott_Arm]

Please stop kidding yourself. They have demoed nothing, nothing at all that is impressive enough that a responsive 2.5D camera deserves. (Note that I don't even care about resolution and accuracy)

Hell, let's forget impressiveness, how about some obvious implementations like better XMB controls, 3d object scanning or an actual full body motion sports game, be it yoga or boxing, or even jump counter would suffice.

And this is from fricking biggest software company of the world with pretty good R&D department.

Driving controls behind the close doors? Why is it behind the close doors to selected press members? Seriously why would a working, responsive control scheme require so secrecy and information filtering? It's not like they are not allowed to write about the system, which is the case for most behind the door showings.

Total bullshit. You go ahead be optimistic as much as you want for favorite console's gadget, or find idiotic press articles with no technical proficiency, only official press release language, whatever. But please, please for God's sake stop trying to make people believers based on nothing but imagination (aka potential).

You know, people have a right to be a little skeptical and wait for slightly convincing demos or even technical specs.

I'm really curious, which one of you here actually got what you were hoping for after hearing zdepth camera rumors?

The only advantage MS has right now,is that their hard tech is not out, thus not fixed, and can evolve in time, unlike say Sony which is stuck with PSEye.

But what MS demoed is nothing but a joke, in addition to ultra bullshit "concept videos", mind you.
Yeay for imagination!

Software and hardware gets demoed behind closed doors all the time. They do that because the stuff is under development and is not ready to be shown on the show flow.

Demoed nothing at all? Nothing but a joke?

I'm not kidding myself. It won't be absolutely perfect. But by the time it's out, I think it'll be fairly functional. Microsoft wouldn't invest huge money into a potentially expensive peripheral and then actually show it to people if they weren't confident they'd be able to get it working at a reasonable level.

Getting what we want from it is relative. Some people are going to expect way too much. To me, it doesn't really matter. The technology is interesting, so I want to play with it and see how it works. I'm expecting the initial games to be very basic along the lines of Wii sports, but down the road maybe we'll get something a bit more challenging. The interface elements are something I'm interested in as well.

[MfA]

I'm really curious, which one of you here actually got what you were hoping for after hearing zdepth camera rumors?
Me! I thought it would be useless for games I would want to play before the E3 demos and I still think it's useless for games I would want to play now ... Tycho says it best :

"Absent anything beyond minigames and puppet shows, I don't know how to contextualize this technology. I can't be certain that it has ramifications of any kind for the games I like to play, the ones my friends like to play, or for the games that built this industry."

I don't see how you could have expected them to do anything more with it than they did ... there is nothing more they can do.

Nice bit of kit though, will be fun to see what people hijack it for.

[catisfit]

Having not worked in this field or anything like, you're obviously way more clued up than me and i can only go by what I hear from other sources. In this case, why is "In The Movies" so poor and why do the EyeToy people asy it can't be done? Are they missing something?

This was a long time ago, and I didn't work on the motion detection stuff directly (I was doing CV on static images), so I would take this with a pinch of the hazy memory salt :smile:

I probably didn't clarify that I was talking about two very different techniques - background removal (In The Movies, etc), and the motion calculation technique with the name I forget (gait recognition).

As I understand it, background subtraction is difficult because even a supposedly stationary camera can change focus or exposure (especially as the foreground object you are trying to capture moves around). Also the object moving will affect the light falling on various parts of the background - the most obvious example of this is a shadow or a reflection but there are indirect effects too.

So when comparing the pixel on frame n to the reference image, you need a threshold of values to cover these variations. Too low and you incorrectly pick up background as foreground, too high and you incorrectly label foreground as background. There is a sweetspot where these errors are minimal (but usually it's not possible to get this to zero). The real problem is that the sweetspot on frame n may not be the same as the sweetspot on frame n+1, because of the changes in camera and scene characteristics I mentioned above. So using the same threshold across a video means almost every frame is non-optimal. You really need to do it manually to get decent results.

Compare this to greenscreen, where you can remove the background with a great degree of accuracy because you determine from the outset that the background is a single colour which is significantly different to any of the foreground colours, so you can use a wide range in the removal and still not lose any foreground, and no manual intervention is required.

The motion detection (gait recognition) system doesn't use a reference image, it just compares frame n with frame n-1, and where there are differences it computes the likeliest direction and speed of motion of that pixel between frames. So you get a kind of "velocity map" if you like, of pixel movements in image space. Of course there are erroneous results, but it is detecting objects covering hundreds of pixels, so averaging techniques can work against this. It also uses edge detection and suchlike IIRC to help clean up the results.

To give an idea of the precision here, it had a 3D awareness (so it could pick up people walking towards/away from the camera etc), and could calculate stride characteristics, joint angles and rotations etc with enough precision to identify individuals in the sample sets by the way they walk.

As I said, I didn't work on it directly so this is all info I acquired from colleagues and saw in demos/videos, and has subsequently been rattling around in the back of my brain for years. I had a quick look for a video of the intermediary stage but I couldn't find one, which is a shame because it's illuminating and very interesting.

[Silent_Buddha]

Having not worked in this field or anything like, you're obviously way more clued up than me and i can only go by what I hear from other sources. In this case, why is "In The Movies" so poor and why do the EyeToy people asy it can't be done? Are they missing something?

It could be something as simple as just not having enough processing resources or memory resources for this type of application when taking a simple feed from a web cam/video camera.

Then again, perhaps catisfit could clue us in on what processing hardware was being used for the work he was doing. I'm extremely curious as it's very interesting technology. It's always interesting (to me) see the progress made and methods used to attempt to replicate the image recognition that the human brain manages to do.

Additionally the US military has systems available that can track distant objects based on shape/movement. Although in their case, they also have absolutely massive computing resources to assist.

Anyway, until Sony shows that the system is capable of something more than simple party games or perhaps more intricate games with simple environments. I'm going to continue to conclude that the PS3 just doesn't have enough computing/memory resources to handle anything remotely like Natal in a demanding 3D game with advanced AI.

And yes I realize Natal hasn't shown anything of that sort either. However, considering that Natal does all the processing internally and then just sends positional tracking data to the X360, it's certainly closer to the low system usage common controller than a combination of Eye Toy + Wands doing 3D positional tracking and image/voice recognition.

Although having the positional tracking data limited to 30 times per second will obviously limit which applications this would be entirely suited for, IMO.

Regards,
SB

[tha_con]

Anyway, until Sony shows that the system is capable of something more than simple party games or perhaps more intricate games with simple environments. I'm going to continue to conclude that the PS3 just doesn't have enough computing/memory resources to handle anything remotely like Natal in a demanding 3D game with advanced AI.


Just out of curiosity, but what exactly has Microsoft shown that would suggest natal is capable of such?

We've seen a person make extremely broad movements for "paint" (none of which was accurate) and we've seen very general "limb" tracking in Ricochet. we've also seen her play with fish (again, nothing accurate requried).

lastly, we saw 1 character (milo) interact with a person, however, the experience, as many press members have pointed out, is potentially all puppet strings, as a developer was always connected to the system with a laptop, so Milo wasn't running on his own.

Right now, I'm far more tempted to consider nearly everything about Natal smoke and mirrors, as far as the "promises" go.

[Scott_Arm]

I showed my cat pictures of all three motion controllers today. She purred the most when shown the Wii Motion Plus. Does this mean it's better? Discuss.

Edit:

Reading through this link that someone posted previously http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time-of-flight_camera, it looks like they most likely use the Z/depth camera to do the object detection. These cameras are very fast, up to 100 fps. They may say it is 30fps functionaly for games because they lose frames to their skeletal algorithms or error correction. Or maybe they are using a slower camera to make it cheaper for consumer electronics. Anyway, it seems that the time of flight camera is also an easy way to do object detection, so are we wrong in thinking that the RGB camera will be used for X,Y information? Maybe all of that is done with the time of flight camera, and the RGB camera is just there to map color info. It seems to me like they'd be using the time of flight camera almost entirely to do the skeletal tracking.

[Asher]

Just out of curiosity, but what exactly has Microsoft shown that would suggest natal is capable of such?

We've seen a person make extremely broad movements for "paint" (none of which was accurate) and we've seen very general "limb" tracking in Ricochet. we've also seen her play with fish (again, nothing accurate requried).

lastly, we saw 1 character (milo) interact with a person, however, the experience, as many press members have pointed out, is potentially all puppet strings, as a developer was always connected to the system with a laptop, so Milo wasn't running on his own.
I've seen this comment made several times, mostly from you---where are you guys getting this from?

I think you are getting confused by the terminology. Molyneaux mentioned he let a developer 'drive' Milo...that's what Claire was. There was no man behind the curtain, all he meant was Claire knew how Milo behaved and knew how to 'trigger' certain events for him to respond.

We've seen plenty of demos, including impressions from people who have used it, of a retail 360 running a fast-paced and demanding game with Natal without any performance hit. So yes, we've seen it. But let's please stop with the accusations that Milo was a puppetshow, it's absolute nonsense. There are legitimate complaints and concerns about Natal, you'd best be served by focusing on those.

[patsu]

I think he took it from the IGN impression.

[thatdude90210]

Right now, I'm far more tempted to consider nearly everything about Natal smoke and mirrors, as far as the "promises" go.
For all we know, both the Sony and the MS system could be smoke and mirrors at this point. No one but the engineer got to touch the Sony system, the same engineer who knows the limitations and would only show what is working. Or could just have been a well rehearsed hand/arm-sync performance to a pre-recorded video. At least MS let Gizmodo/engadget guys try the old "let's see if it still works if I do this" test.

[patsu]

The live demoes on stage should be real. Even if it's someone "rigging" it, it's probably to prevent failures. I have done such demoes and had to jump in last minute behind the scene to tie things over when unexpected event happened. I'd still consider it a working prototype though.

The concept videos may not.

[Asher]

I think he took it from the IGN impression.
This, I assume:
http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/991/991348p1.html

I'm also curious to know what level of influence a nearby Lionhead rep had directly over the demo itself -- as attached to the Xbox 360 running Milo, was a laptop with a read-out/ eyes-on view of people using the camera. It was never really clarified what the nearby Lionhead rep was doing to and with the Laptop and the information being sent to it, by the game -- outside of verifying new people entering the camera range and initializing some of the various moments in the demo.


A development app hooked up with a development controller needs a laptop to set things up...that's not surprising and a far cry from saying it is a puppetmaster.

[bkilian]

Please stop kidding yourself. They have demoed nothing, nothing at all that is impressive enough that a responsive 2.5D camera deserves. (Note that I don't even care about resolution and accuracy)

Hell, let's forget impressiveness, how about some obvious implementations like better XMB controls, 3d object scanning or an actual full body motion sports game, be it yoga or boxing, or even jump counter would suffice.

And this is from fricking biggest software company of the world with pretty good R&D department.

Driving controls behind the close doors? Why is it behind the close doors to selected press members? Seriously why would a working, responsive control scheme require so secrecy and information filtering? It's not like they are not allowed to write about the system, which is the case for most behind the door showings.

Total bullshit. You go ahead be optimistic as much as you want for favorite console's gadget, or find idiotic press articles with no technical proficiency, only official press release language, whatever. But please, please for God's sake stop trying to make people believers based on nothing but imagination (aka potential).

You know, people have a right to be a little skeptical and wait for slightly convincing demos or even technical specs.

I'm really curious, which one of you here actually got what you were hoping for after hearing zdepth camera rumors?

The only advantage MS has right now,is that their hard tech is not out, thus not fixed, and can evolve in time, unlike say Sony which is stuck with PSEye.

But what MS demoed is nothing but a joke, in addition to ultra bullshit "concept videos", mind you.
Yeay for imagination!So, uh, why didn't Sony demo real games then? It should have been childs play to modify some games and show them off with their motion controller.

Again, just because they _didn't_ do something doesn't mean they _couldn't_. Maybe there were rights issues with Burnout that meant they couldn't show it in public. Maybe it crashes sometimes and they didn't want to take the chance during the demo. Maybe they're kinda busy, i dunno... tweaking the technology to spend a lot of time hacking controls into games.

We'll find out more about the tech in time, but being so negative about it simply because they didn't show what you thought the should is as illogical as believing it will supercede controllers altogether.

[patsu]

This, I assume:
http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/991/991348p1.html



A development app hooked up with a development controller needs a laptop to set things up...that's not surprising and a far cry from saying it is a puppetmaster.

Yeah, in that impression... he basically confirmed that the Milo video is a target concept. The real one is far from it, though it shows potential for progress. The smooth speech recognition and meaningful exchange part is yet to be done, and the main reason why people called bluff on it.

[bkilian]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0-4-FObaRU

A youtube video of a guesture controlled TV at CES this year. It provides a "mouse like" pointer that with some refinement could probably be used to control a FPS style game. (not that anyone would want to, but there have been some comments that this would be impossible in the natal world)

[bkilian]

Also, note that it recognised two independent hands. Dual wielding shooting two enemies simultaneously FTW. (Sony's tech could also do this, it's not a specific tech observation, it's a "this would be insane to try with today's controller" observation.)

[patsu]

I think they may be talking about more subtle points (i.e., something else). I'll leave it up to those folks to clarify.

[g35er]

Natal has the potential to really offer something new, allowing dancing games and exercise games to mimic your body for instance, something which I'm sure could really be a hit with the casuals. Sure, some apps could be gimmacky but if the Wii and Wii board proved anything, people want novel experiences. But why would anyone already downplay this technology when the ideas are just brewing? You know it's almost certain that Sony and Nintendo are working on or plan to work on their own body motion sensing technology. And it'll be great to see their offerings. Why play the console wars here? MS was just first, that's all. This is just the beginning and it's pretty exciting.

[Shifty Geezer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0-4-FObaRU

A youtube video of a guesture controlled TV at CES this year. It provides a "mouse like" pointer that with some refinement could probably be used to control a FPS style game. (not that anyone would want to, but there have been some comments that this would be impossible in the natal world)It's not the same as the pointing thing that appears very difficult. The whole hand is moving laterally. This could be calibrated to map position with screen, just like a mouse's small movements are mapped to screen position. It could also be clever and take the calibration as relative to the shoulder, so the user can change position without screwing up the aiming. It still doesn't demonstrate fine rotation detection as obtained with MEMs devices. The most surprising thing IMO is another 3D cam in operation. I didn't think there were set to go into the wild. This is good for the tech, and potentially encourages the adoption of Cell of similar solutions, as a powerhouse to drive both input tech and image/video processing tech. The alternative is lots of ASICs all doing specific jobs.

Incidentally, from a link at the above link, this 2008 clip from Samsung...
JeENM04iR2s

It appears every man and their dog will have this tech!

[patsu]

Natal has the potential to really offer something new, allowing dancing games and exercise games to mimic your body for instance, something which I'm sure could really be a hit with the casuals. Sure, some apps could be gimmacky but if the Wii and Wii board proved anything, people want novel experiences. But why would anyone already downplay this technology when the ideas are just brewing? You know it's almost certain that Sony and Nintendo are working on or plan to work on their own body motion sensing technology. And it'll be great to see their offerings. Why play the console wars here? MS was just first, that's all. This is just the beginning and it's pretty exciting.

Good point, but I think people are digesting all the motion technologies in this thread (What it is and what it's not). e.g., What do you think about the Vitality sensor ? Most responses may be negative but it doesn't necessarily mean we are fighting a console war, or we want Nintendo to die.

All 3 techs can bring in new audiences.


EDIT: bkilian and Shifty, if I need to perform that much action on a TV, I may prefer a simpler abstraction where I don't have to hang my arms out for so long.

[betan]

So, uh, why didn't Sony demo real games then?

Because real games are not ready?

It should have been childs play to modify some games and show them off with their motion controller.

I doubt that considering most of their games use totally different control scheme which would look nothing but stupid with gestures only. They could of course demo Burnout Paradise with tilt sensing, but then BP already works with SixAxis tilting. ;)

It's not that Sony tech demos were impressive, but at least they showed things that works properly and useful.


Again, just because they _didn't_ do something doesn't mean they _couldn't_.

It's nice to be a faithful believer, but I personally like to think "just because they _didn't_ do something doesn't mean they _could_. ". Yep I know, obvious.

Maybe there were rights issues with Burnout that meant they couldn't show it in public. Maybe it crashes sometimes and they didn't want to take the chance during the demo.

Of course there may be a lot of reasons for not wanting to show things.

Maybe they're kinda busy, i dunno... tweaking the technology to spend a lot of time hacking controls into games.

Who cares about hacking controls into games? I understand a couple of people here likes to tilt their head while playing an FPS with regular controller but come on. You have 2.5D camera possibly with builtin skeletal detection system, what would you show?
My original question stands, what were you expecting to see after the rumors and what did you see?

We'll find out more about the tech in time, but being so negative about it simply because they didn't show what you thought the should is as illogical as believing it will supercede controllers altogether.

It's not illogical at all that full motion body control will supersede controllers all together.
It may not happen soon, but saying it won't happen is being negative, and short sighted.

Attempts to defend MS like "they didn't have time to show off what it can do", "there may be licensing issues" (as if they had to demo BP as opposed to two MGS racers), "hacking games take times" are however quite frankly wishful thinking.

It's responsibility of MS to convince people, not responsibility of people to be convinced.

[ShadowRunner]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0-4-FObaRU

A youtube video of a guesture controlled TV at CES this year. It provides a "mouse like" pointer that with some refinement could probably be used to control a FPS style game. (not that anyone would want to, but there have been some comments that this would be impossible in the natal world)

This is what we were saying IS possible on natal. It is totaly different to how Wii and PSMC do it. In this the whole hand/arm must move on the xy axis, what you want from a pointing device it the ability to keep the device at the same point on the xy axis and use simply the angle and rotation of the device for pointing.

[tha_con]

I've seen this comment made several times, mostly from you---where are you guys getting this from?

I think you are getting confused by the terminology. Molyneaux mentioned he let a developer 'drive' Milo...that's what Claire was. There was no man behind the curtain, all he meant was Claire knew how Milo behaved and knew how to 'trigger' certain events for him to respond.

We've seen plenty of demos, including impressions from people who have used it, of a retail 360 running a fast-paced and demanding game with Natal without any performance hit. So yes, we've seen it. But let's please stop with the accusations that Milo was a puppetshow, it's absolute nonsense. There are legitimate complaints and concerns about Natal, you'd best be served by focusing on those.

I'm getting it from ListenUp and Giant Bomb Cast, folks who went to see "Milo" live in action, and said that a developer was hooked up to an Xbox 360 via Laptop doing "something" to trigger reactions from Milo. I dont' recall which podcast, but one of the members said Milo failed to response, and then conveniently reacted when the developer was paying attention again. It's extremely "suspect".

Even then, Milo isn't that impressive if he only reacts to certain trigger words. Voice recognition is capable of pretty much the same results.

In reference to the other demos, again, we've seen nothing that requires very specific input. Everything is just general tracking of limbs. Even burnout, it's just tracking your fists moving.

I think it's more legitimate to question the technology than it is to blindly accept it for the charade that it was presented as.

[Scott_Arm]

...
In reference to the other demos, again, we've seen nothing that requires very specific input. Everything is just general tracking of limbs. Even burnout, it's just tracking your fists moving.

I think it's more legitimate to question the technology than it is to blindly accept it for the charade that it was presented as.

I wasn't blown away by the Milo demo. It seems to be very primitive at this point.

But as for burnout ... It's just tracking your fists moving? I mean, think about that. It's actually tracking your fists moving. Maybe it isn't the ideal game for Natal, but it demonstrates very clearly that it can actually track a part of your body, and not just motion. One of the reports mentioned standing on their toes, kneeling on the ground etc, and all the while the hand tracking for steering never screwed up. To me, that's very impressive. It's a far cry from a complicated twitch game, but body tracking is freaking cool.

I guess it depends on how you look at this thing. If you look at it from a gamer's perspective, maybe it isn't that great. Maybe nothing has been shown to really get excited about in the world of gaming. From a technology standpoint, I think it's pretty damned awesome, even if it never ends up lending itself to be the primary mechanism for controlling a complex game.

[patsu]

I wasn't blown away by the Milo demo. It seems to be very primitive at this point.

Ha ha... and yet no one has done a real, live tech demo on it yet. The Milo video also reminded me of this: :)

_a0t2Eb7YJk

The vision is long in the tooth.

In the Apple system (90s), they abstracted and implemented an English-like scripting language and of course speech recognition. So you could really navigate through the system and applications via voice commands (e.g., "<Name of computer>, move the second paragraph of the document to the fifth paragraph"). If the system catches what you were saying, it will execute the instructions. It also has cartoon avatars to interact with you. The system didn't take off for various usability and business reasons.


I think the Natal Burnout demo tracks the feet too (for the pedals)

[Nesh]

I wasn't blown away by the Milo demo. It seems to be very primitive at this point.

But as for burnout ... It's just tracking your fists moving? I mean, think about that. It's actually tracking your fists moving. Maybe it isn't the ideal game for Natal, but it demonstrates very clearly that it can actually track a part of your body, and not just motion. One of the reports mentioned standing on their toes, kneeling on the ground etc, and all the while the hand tracking for steering never screwed up. To me, that's very impressive. It's a far cry from a complicated twitch game, but body tracking is freaking cool.

I guess it depends on how you look at this thing. If you look at it from a gamer's perspective, maybe it isn't that great. Maybe nothing has been shown to really get excited about in the world of gaming. From a technology standpoint, I think it's pretty damned awesome, even if it never ends up lending itself to be the primary mechanism for controlling a complex game.

Is there a video of Natal demonstrating Burnout?

[Scott_Arm]

Is there a video of Natal demonstrating Burnout?

Unfortunately, not really. You can watch people playing it, but they wouldn't let people video tape the display or the hardware. So you can see people standing there moving their hands in the air to steer and moving their right foot back and forth to start/stop. The way it was working, they didn't have analog speed control. It was basically pedal to the floor or foot on the brakes. You could probably dig up a video on engadget, gizmodo or kotaku, but it's pretty much just as I described it.

[onanie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0-4-FObaRU

A youtube video of a guesture controlled TV at CES this year. It provides a "mouse like" pointer that with some refinement could probably be used to control a FPS style game. (not that anyone would want to, but there have been some comments that this would be impossible in the natal world)

It is interesting to see that in a single-eyed camera. Especially the forward thrust to confirm an action.

[Laa-Yosh]

How much would one of those body-suit setups used for motion-capture cost?

Suit itself is cheap, actually you can buy your own stuff; surfer or dancer equipment is OK, all that matters is that it has to be skin tight. Kinda inconvenient to wear for long, though (yeah, I did some of that a few years ago ;)

The markers themselves weren't cheap back in ~2001, but you had to buy them from Vicon and I guess they had quite a profit margin ;) It shouldn't be too expensive to mass manufacture though.

However, the thing only works when you have proper IR lighting and camera equipment, so it's useless for Natal.


ILM's iMocap (Pirates 2 and Iron Man) is different, completely image based I guess, where the suit is more important. I have absolutely no clue about it though as it's proprietary tech.

[Laa-Yosh]

Actually your brain is not easily trick or confused. Your brain does just fine manipulating virtual objects with a few buttons and a couple of analog sticks.

Yeah, another interesting field is Wacom digitizing tablets used for painting on the computer. The mapping isn't 1-1, and you get feedback from a cursor but it still works just as well as looking at your own hand.

In fact, now that Wacom has the Cintiq where there's a full 20 inch LCD screen on top of the tablet, many users have found it problematic that their own hand covers up a large portion of the screen, in other words the 'canvas'. So the brain can certainly adapt very well.

[Shifty Geezer]

Yeah, another interesting field is Wacom digitizing tablets used for painting on the computer. The mapping isn't 1-1, and you get feedback from a cursor but it still works just as well as looking at your own hand.I actually have real issues using a graphics tablet. It lacks the accuracy I've already learnt with pencil. I find it easier to draw and scan than draw direct. Which goes to show a person can learn anything, but if the learning is too ahrd, especially compared to something they can already do another way, they may well given up trying!

[Laa-Yosh]

How big was that tablet, and what make? Anything other then Wacom stuff is usually a lot worse.

[Shifty Geezer]

Small and few years old Wacom Graphire. It's horizontal lines I have the most issue with. I get a lot more kinks/wobbles than with pencil, and general curvature - my arm doesn't like drawing straight lines when it can't see the end of the nib! I love the mouse for it's faultless response though, and the stylus is very convenient for some tasks. It'd be nice to get both options into console interfacing in general through some means. A small, pencil-sized pointer would be good IMO, with suitable noise dampening to stop the jitters.

[Arwin]

I have and use the exact same tablet as you Shifty. I think I'm more comfortable than you with the drawing bit though, but then I don't use it a lot right now. For a while though I tried using the Stylus instead of a mouse but damn that was a disappointment - holding a pencil is downright exhausting and it cramped my hand like mad. Biggest gripe with the grapphire now is its drivers. They could definitely do with an update, but considering how old the tablet is that's very unlikely.
Oh and if it's the original grapphire like mine, it's bound to be more than a few years old by now. ;)
It will be interesting to see if they can simulate mouse or pointer like behaviour with Natal, but I wouldn't be surprised if they're better off with coming up with something new.

[Inquisitive_Idiot]

Sugar Ray Leonard and crew play Ricochet and Burnout (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-443dE5-gk)

Felicia Day plays Ricochet (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYuJivFFa-c)

Paul Rodriguez plays Ricochet (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AscJO0uUQ_Q)

IMO it looks pretty damn fun and Burnout looks great considering it is just a hack! I would love to see a Mario Kart style game made with this device, and after seeing Sugar Ray in front of the screen punching at the balls a boxing game would be amazing.

[Arwin]

Ricochet is definitely the kind of game that I would get this for. The driving videos though - a sportsman that was sweating like one minute? :D I don't think that's going to be really practical in the end, just too tiring. You'll need some kind of shortcut. But I'm sure they'll figure something out. If it's precise enough maybe you could lean your elbows on your knees. Could be bad for your back, but that might be a way in which you'd be able to manage playing it a little longer. But I can definitely see a really cool aerobics type game, ddr type game, martial arts training, fighting game, etc. That's the kind of thing that makes me most excited about this for sure! Being a goalie for hockey though as someone else mentioned - although the lag seems pretty low from these videos, I think that may be a step too far. Still could be fun though of course.

[Inquisitive_Idiot]

really practical in the end, just too tiring.

I think that is the entire point of it! A boxing game would be excellent with this thing, especially with full body motion control. You could weave, bob, fade, throw hooks, uppercuts, jabs in a way that has not been done in any game prior. Maybe this device would not be great for FPS or RPGs, racing sims and Street Fighter style fighting games, but there are a whole bunch of other interesting experiences you could get with this device, such as flying games, surfing, tennis, etc.

[obonicus]

I think that is the entire point of it! A boxing game would be excellent with this thing, especially with full body motion control. You could weave, bob, fade, throw hooks, uppercuts, jabs in a way that has not been done in any game prior. Maybe this device would not be great for FPS or RPGs, racing sims and Street Fighter style fighting games, but there are a whole bunch of other interesting experiences you could get with this device, such as flying games, surfing, tennis, etc.

I wonder, though. Besides the lack of feedback, which I think is very important, I'm never going to throw a punch as fast as Manny Pacquiao. It's the same discussion we had on motion+. I'm just a guy; not a master swordsman, though my thumbs are better at faking it than I am.

[Silent_Buddha]

Just out of curiosity, but what exactly has Microsoft shown that would suggest natal is capable of such?

We've seen a person make extremely broad movements for "paint" (none of which was accurate) and we've seen very general "limb" tracking in Ricochet. we've also seen her play with fish (again, nothing accurate requried).

lastly, we saw 1 character (milo) interact with a person, however, the experience, as many press members have pointed out, is potentially all puppet strings, as a developer was always connected to the system with a laptop, so Milo wasn't running on his own.

Right now, I'm far more tempted to consider nearly everything about Natal smoke and mirrors, as far as the "promises" go.

Well I would assume that Burnout Paradise is at least a somewhat demanding real 3D rendered video game that has been released... ;)

Regards,
SB

[Inquisitive_Idiot]

I wonder, though. Besides the lack of feedback, which I think is very important, I'm never going to throw a punch as fast as Manny Pacquiao. It's the same discussion we had on motion+. I'm just a guy; not a master swordsman, though my thumbs are better at faking it than I am.

The game does not need to be a one to one simulation with real life to be fun, I mean even Fight Night seems slow and stiff compared to real boxing. The very nature of this technology requires you to be active, moving your limbs and torso, not sitting down. Obviously there are some concerns as to how accurate the device can to be to pull off high precision FPS, head tracking, or as some suggested finger movement, but I believe those features are secondary to the devices real design, which is to attract people who play Wii Fit, Wii Sports, etc without seeming like its just a rip-off.

[Silent_Buddha]

It's nice to be a faithful believer, but I personally like to think "just because they _didn't_ do something doesn't mean they _could_. ". Yep I know, obvious.

Then why aren't you applying the same logic to Sony? They haven't shown anything either. So you assume that they "could" but assume that MS "can't".

And then go on to make snide comments about MS supporters? To be fair shouldn't you also be making snide comments about PS3 supporters and the fact that you shouldn't believe Sony's claims until they actually show a game? Something a lot of people seem to be doing to MS, yet the whole while giving Sony a free pass.

Myself? I'm sure both systems have games in developement for them. What games, noone really knows. What actual capabilities will show up? Again noone really knows.

But to claim that because one company didn't show something you personally didn't find impressive, that's it patently impossible for them. While giving the other company a free pass even though they also didn't show anything other's found personally impressive is hypocritical at best.

Bleh...

Regards,
SB

[Arwin]

I think that is the entire point of it! A boxing game would be excellent with this thing, especially with full body motion control. You could weave, bob, fade, throw hooks, uppercuts, jabs in a way that has not been done in any game prior. Maybe this device would not be great for FPS or RPGs, racing sims and Street Fighter style fighting games, but there are a whole bunch of other interesting experiences you could get with this device, such as flying games, surfing, tennis, etc.

Oh I agree. By the way, upper body movement was one of the first practical uses I'd thought of for the sixaxis. I still think it would be a perfect match. But we need motion controls widely accepted on all platforms before we'll get big games like Fight Night to support it I guess! Would be great though!

[Silent_Buddha]

Ricochet is definitely the kind of game that I would get this for. The driving videos though - a sportsman that was sweating like one minute? :D I don't think that's going to be really practical in the end, just too tiring. You'll need some kind of shortcut. But I'm sure they'll figure something out. If it's precise enough maybe you could lean your elbows on your knees. Could be bad for your back, but that might be a way in which you'd be able to manage playing it a little longer. But I can definitely see a really cool aerobics type game, ddr type game, martial arts training, fighting game, etc. That's the kind of thing that makes me most excited about this for sure! Being a goalie for hockey though as someone else mentioned - although the lag seems pretty low from these videos, I think that may be a step too far. Still could be fun though of course.

I doubt anyone will come out with a serious racing game that would require you to drive for extended periods of time. Something like a Kart racer though with cute intermissions where you could rest your arms, that might be possible.

However, I don't think Burnout Paradise was so much about this is the type of game we might make with it, as it was a proof of concept.

It can work in a demanding 3D environment. It can recognize anyone of any height/weight virtually instantly and begin working. It can work in dim lighting (many articles mentioned the room wasn't well lit and was a somewhat dim hotel room). It can track pertinent body parts no matter what the person does short of completely obscuring it or going out of the camera field of view. Etc...

And probably as a practical test that MS is mostly likely using to collect data on how well it works and where it needs improving. In various articles for example it mentions monitoring hardware and displays hooked up. Also showing how well it tracked multiple people in the scene even though no actual demo was created to show this in action. So it's a fair bet that MS was using this not only to promote Natal but also to gather more data on it.

Heh, Sugar Ray using the breakout type game as a Psuedo boxer is pretty interesting though. I've never been one for boxing games on the console as I just can't translate my physical reactions to button presses and always just fail miserably. If a boxer comes out for Natal I might give it boxing another try on console.

Regards,
SB

[Shifty Geezer]

I wonder, though. Besides the lack of feedback, which I think is very important, I'm never going to throw a punch as fast as Manny Pacquiao. It's the same discussion we had on motion+. I'm just a guy; not a master swordsman, though my thumbs are better at faking it than I am.This is what developers need to get right, and I dare say most will fail given past games. The opposition has to be set at exactly the right level so the player is pushing their limits but still able to win. In a boxing game where you want the action to be fast, it must only be fast relative to the player's reactions. A slow player needs a slower paced game. A seasoned boxer needs the game faster. Whoever you fight against needs to scaled down to your abilities, so the beginner can beat Sugar Ray is they really concentrate, while the expert has also to concentrate. Likewise in a fantasy RPG where you have to wield the sword, the game should adapt. This way the player would actually grow in skill.

It's the reason players of sports play like-able players, instead of too-easy or too-hard players. There's a 'growth' zone that's beneficial. Too low is no fun, and too high is frustrating. Sadly, IMO, hardly any computer games ever get this right, and those that offer a challenge are targeted at hardcore gamers with uberskills. True adaptive difficulty that isn't nerfed (like Oblivion) and isn't more than higher HP of mobs is very rare.

[Naboomagnoli]

Then why aren't you applying the same logic to Sony? They haven't shown anything either. So you assume that they "could" but assume that MS "can't".

And then go on to make snide comments about MS supporters? To be fair shouldn't you also be making snide comments about PS3 supporters and the fact that you shouldn't believe Sony's claims until they actually show a game? Something a lot of people seem to be doing to MS, yet the whole while giving Sony a free pass.


Sony's demos did demonstrate the technical abilities of the PSMC quite concisely and unambiguously. They showed tech clearly working and with nothing (besides form factor) really left wanting. It is also easily relatable to tech already in the market and shown to be working. Nothing that was shown in the demonstration was staged or manipulated to appear more real than it was. We also know, more or less, exactly what the tech itself is doing. The only thing we don't know is how much of the PS3 CPU is actually going to be taken up by translating the controller input into actions onscreen (which is perhaps why they couldn't hack an existing game easily?)

MS's concept trailers promise much that in practice we haven't seen concrete evidence of, and is strewn with ambiguity. Even with the Burnout video above, we can see that the system picks up most of the steering movements (albeit with some discernible lag reminiscent of the Sixaxis tilt controls), but there are so many unknowns regarding where the system wants to be and where we can see it is now.


Incidentally, one potential killer app for the young market use for a Natal-like system once they get it out there would be some sort of dancing / choreography game, perhaps mixed with a Singstar/Lips setup. As well as seeing themselves alongside the latest teen stars from High School Musical 5 - Mission To Moscow, it'd probably be quite good at telling them how to improve, and slowing certain bits down for practice runs if they're struggling.

[one]

Can Natal detect what you do with your hands behind your back?

[patsu]

We have access to Sony's motion sensing patents. We have used PS Eye and EyeToy for years. The new motion sensing usage model is also well understood (Thanks to Wii). The live tech demoes were quite varied and detailed (No concept video !). If you read the GAF thread, Titanio has quite a few good take on the Sony controller. I'll summarize in the appropriate thread later.

Meanwhile here're some more quotes/perspectives about all 3 motion tech (stolen from Titanio):
http://www.niagarafallsreview.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1601216

Matt Ryan (Nintendo of Canada):

"Wii MotionPlus offers a level of precision that is unique to the Wii Remote and Nintendo's Wii console," Nintendo of Canada spokesman Matt Ryan said.

"There will be more software experiences that will use Wii MotionPlus combined with our key franchises that are only available on Wii. Plus, when you pioneer the technology you have the opportunity to finesse and enhance it.

"That is exactly what Wii MotionPlus is offering."


Shane Kim (MS):
"Nintendo's success with the Wii is good, because it shows what can happen when you lower the accessibility barrier more. But at the end of the day, you're still tethered in some fashion to a controller," said Shane Kim, Microsoft's corporate vice president of strategy and business development for the games division. (We spoke to Kim before Sony unveiled its own take on the motion controller.)


Matt Levitan (SCE of Canada)
"Having a dedicated hard drive and Blu-ray player in every PS3 means we have the ability to do things the Wii and Xbox 360 can't," said Sony Computer Entertainment Canada spokesman Matt Levitan.

"Our strategy will be to build the (motion controller) functionality into our high-definition lineup of software, in addition to making games specifically for the device. It will ensure that we don't have just an abundance of mini-game collections."



EDIT: Can Natal detect what you do with your hands behind your back?

As I understand, the skeleton constructor will do a best effort to "fill in the blank". But someone is right above, the subtle hand orientation and shape is currently not tracked. They will need more work to figure that out but it's limited by the camera resolution.

[Naboomagnoli]

No. Nor down your trousers.

Oo-er, just had a nasty thought. Did you say the z-axis resolution was 1.5 cm?

[patsu]

Not me ! Someone else estimated but no one has validated it. The Tony Hawk guy's comment is as expected. You cannot use a camera based solution to track fast movement yet.

I wonder how fast Cell can go with a depth sensing camera though.

[Shifty Geezer]

Can Natal detect what you do with your hands behind your back?Obviously Natal will be no more able to know which hand you are hiding the penny in than any person who was stood in front of you. In that vein, it won't work if you stand behind the sofa either. My response is 'why would it have to?' How many games are going to benefit from having the player apply their manual dexterity behind their back? The player on the whole is going to want their hands in the most natural places, in front of them or to the sides. Cases where the hands may be occluded, like taking a swing, can be tracked from interpolating motions to predict joint placements.

[Laa-Yosh]

Why would you want to play a game with your hadns behind your back?

[manux]

Obviously Natal will be no more able to know which hand you are hiding the penny in than any person who was stood in front of you. In that vein, it won't work if you stand behind the sofa either. [b]My response is 'why would it have to?[b]' How many games are going to benefit from having the player apply their manual dexterity behind their back?

What if it's a multiplayer game and gamers partially occlude each other...

edit. I can also imagine the boxing use case where other hand is occluded so camera cannot see it... would make detecting when punch starts pretty hard.

[Shifty Geezer]

But if the hand passes from front to back, Natal can predict where it is for a short period. That's not a problem, and it's also not the same thing as trying to follow a person's hands when they are occluded. If players getting in each other's way is a problem, that's perhaps an issue with the idea of trying to get four players active in a small spot ;) There are going to have to be some guidelines and requirements imposed on the players, just like Wii has a distance limit (sidestepped by homebrew IR sources)

[Scott_Arm]

I'm interested to see how well it handles things like standing with your feet together. If your pants are baggy and touch between your legs, will it be able to see two legs or one? Same if you put your arms straight down beside your body. Mind you, I can't think of many games where you'd want to stand stiff as a board in a straight line, but from a technology perspective, I'm curious to see if it can handle it.

[thatdude90210]

One thing I haven't seen in either MS's or Sony's new motion tech is pointer function that's as quick and easy as a mouse. Only the Wii IR pointer works that way.

Where you would need something like that is a web browser. I don't see how moving your hand across your body or reaching all around is easier than sitting with a wiimote in hand on your lap and just pointing. PES 2009 wii uses the pointer very well. I think RTS games is another area where a pointer would work well.

[Silent_Buddha]

I'm interested to see how well it handles things like standing with your feet together. If your pants are baggy and touch between your legs, will it be able to see two legs or one? Same if you put your arms straight down beside your body. Mind you, I can't think of many games where you'd want to stand stiff as a board in a straight line, but from a technology perspective, I'm curious to see if it can handle it.

Just hazarding a guess here as I'm sure the people working on Natal have run into these problems.

But I would assume that once the camera see's a "person" with all 4 limbs and a head, that even if you brought everything into your body and and stood straight with legs together and arms locked it would still "know" that it is a person, so once you unfolded your arms/legs it would resume tracking them as normal.

I suppose it could be a problem if you stood in that legs together arms locked at your sides position before even turning the unit on. :) But then as soon as you moved, it would begin tracking what it's supposed to.

But that does bring up an interesting point. What if you have a girl in front of it trying to use it in a full length dress?

I'm sure wearing a head to toe raincoat could probably pose problems also. Then again if you are trying to play a console game in a head to toe raincoat you have other problems. :D

Regards,
SB

[Naboomagnoli]

Thatdude:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiX-26VL4bM

4:40 on, when he's manipulating the shapes. Selects them pretty damn quickly.

[thatdude90210]

Thatdude:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiX-26VL4bM

4:40 on, when he's manipulating the shapes. Selects them pretty damn quickly.
That's pretty good, should work well for RTS games.

Though it's not quite mouse pointer, still have to wave the wand around.

The Wiimote can do simple pointer (used like a laser pointer), simple motion (waggle), buttons and joystick with the nunchuck, and 1:1 motion with motion plus. But it adds up to an $80 full controller.

[one]

My response is 'why would it have to?'To accurately model and simulate a forehand stroke by a tennis player or pitch mechanics of a baseball pitcher. If it can do them, even professionals can use it to correct their form. Wii Sports + the old Wii remote was not enough.

That's pretty good, should work well for RTS games.

Though it's not quite mouse pointer, still have to wave the wand around.In the same video, from 5:09, they demonstrated drawing/writing with sub-millimeter accuracy. Can you write with a mouse?

[Naboomagnoli]

That's pretty good, should work well for RTS games.

Though it's not quite mouse pointer, still have to wave the wand around.

The Wiimote can do simple pointer (used like a laser pointer), simple motion (waggle), buttons and joystick with the nunchuck, and 1:1 motion with motion plus. But it adds up to an $80 full controller.

I'm sure if he was sitting on a sofa he'd be able to demonstrate in a less animated way :wink:

Things like that are down to the software to deal with the controller input, shirley? If it is truly 1:1 with such precision (as was demonstrably the case), it's still up to the software how they want to use the data coming in. The point is more that it can be used as 1:1. If they want to up the sensitivity so small hand movements move the cursor more dramatically, then it's the same procedure as upping the sensitivity on a mouse.

[obonicus]

In the same video, from 5:09, they demonstrated drawing/writing with sub-millimeter accuracy. Can you write with a mouse?

In all fairness, THAT guy could write with the wand. Some people can indeed write with a mouse; I know several pretty amazing artists who make do with the mouse when they don't have their tablet around. Doesn't mean anything to me, the klutz.

[Scott_Arm]

... What if you have a girl in front of it trying to use it in a full length dress? ...

I guess you'd have to ask her to take her dress off.

[obonicus]

The game does not need to be a one to one simulation with real life to be fun, I mean even Fight Night seems slow and stiff compared to real boxing. The very nature of this technology requires you to be active, moving your limbs and torso, not sitting down. Obviously there are some concerns as to how accurate the device can to be to pull off high precision FPS, head tracking, or as some suggested finger movement, but I believe those features are secondary to the devices real design, which is to attract people who play Wii Fit, Wii Sports, etc without seeming like its just a rip-off.

Okay, so now we're back to my earlier argument. We don't care about Wii Sports. Even the good games in Wii Sports, like bowling, we couldn't care less about. That's okay, naturally, it's not for us. Why do we suddenly care when suddenly we have a different form of waggle?

That's my problem when it comes to motion controls: other than a fairly narrow range of games, anything excessively skill-based will have to be hobbled to match our couch-addled physiques. And on the opposite spectrum, we just were never interested in extremely dumbed down experiences.

[Scott_Arm]

That's my problem when it comes to motion controls: other than a fairly narrow range of games, anything excessively skill-based will have to be hobbled to match our couch-addled physiques. And on the opposite spectrum, we just were never interested in extremely dumbed down experiences.

I don't understand that argument at all. If you play for example a boxing game, and the game is challenging and entertaining, what does it matter if you are not playing at the level of a professional athlete? How is it dumbing down the experience?

[Asher]

That's pretty good, should work well for RTS games.

Though it's not quite mouse pointer, still have to wave the wand around.

The Wiimote can do simple pointer (used like a laser pointer), simple motion (waggle), buttons and joystick with the nunchuck, and 1:1 motion with motion plus. But it adds up to an $80 full controller.

The Wii does not have a pointer at all. That's not what the IR is used for. No game systems has a "laser pointer" like system. They can detect orientation and then use accelerometers to use relative motions. It's far more like a trackball than a pointer. For most people they think it behaves like a pointer, but it really doesn't. It actually drives me crazy on the Wii -- I'm not sure if my brain isn't wired like other people's but I find it difficult to point at things with the Wii. I over/undershoot constantly.

[manux]

I don't understand that argument at all. If you play for example a boxing game, and the game is challenging and entertaining, what does it matter if you are not playing at the level of a professional athlete? How is it dumbing down the experience?

Why would I play boxing with a natal when I can go and do it in real life? I think that was the point obonicus had(the other end of spectrum). I'm relatively deep into practicing kickboxing and I wouldn't be interested in waggle/camera boxing with a console. On the other hand fight night round 4 raises big interest in me, that I can do from couch when I'm tired from real practice. Those who don't do real sports might not actually have physical capability to do waggle/camera thingies and games need to be toned way down. What's the good middle ground that interests both couch potatoes and those who are into sports in real life too?

[thatdude90210]

In the same video, from 5:09, they demonstrated drawing/writing with sub-millimeter accuracy. Can you write with a mouse?
I don't know about sub millimeter accuracy, but writing is a simple task with a mouse.
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/600/simple1.jpg

[Shifty Geezer]

Why would I play boxing with a natal when I can go and do it in real life?Because you don't have to pay to go out and box, don't have the overhead of travel, and most importantly, don't get hurt! That's a principle appeal of computer games - doing things that you wouldn't do in real life, whether running around a battlefield with gay abandon, mercilessly blowing up civilians or feeding them to your pet troll, or standing toe-to-toe with a super-heavyweight boxer.

[Shifty Geezer]

Though it's not quite mouse pointer, still have to wave the wand around.I don't understand. It works like the Wii, 'pointing' on the screen. Keep the device still and the pointer stays on the spot.

[manux]

Because you don't have to pay to go out and box, don't have the overhead of travel, and most importantly, don't get hurt! That's a principle appeal of computer games - doing things that you wouldn't do in real life, whether running around a battlefield with gay abandon, mercilessly blowing up civilians or feeding them to your pet troll, or standing toe-to-toe with a super-heavyweight boxer.

But actually I do that several times a week just for kickboxing + other sports on top of that. I have bruises occasionally and love it all the time...

I think there is probably a good middle ground somewhere that both couch potatoes and athletes can enjoy. Though finding the balance could be tricky. Make it too easy on physical/skill side and hobbyists get nothing of it, make it too demanding and couch potatoes won't bother with it because it makes them sweat too much and perhaps the learning curve is to steep.

On the other hand I'm, fairly certain I'm not in the main audience for waggle/motion controllers as I far prefer to try to do the real thing and hence my point of view probably is too cynical. Consoles are more the stuff I do after I have gotten physically tired in real activities. Hence I far prefer the traditional control instead. Though I have to say that guitar hero/rockband is the exception that I like a lot.

[Scott_Arm]

I think there is probably a good middle ground somewhere that both couch potatoes and athletes can enjoy. Though finding the balance could be tricky. Make it too easy on physical/skill side and hobbyists get nothing of it, make it too demanding and couch potatoes won't bother with it because it makes them sweat too much and perhaps the learning curve is to steep.


That's what difficulty levels are for.

[manux]

That's what difficulty levels are for.

But how do you implement the difficulty level for boxing where you box against another person? Or perhaps boxing is just the thing that is difficult to make and there are other waggly motion games better suited for gimmick controllers.

You cannot make the other guy any slower or smaller(or can you?). I just cannot figure out a system that would even the playfield without making it boring to either side of the audience. Against computer I can see how the difficulty could be set as the opponent can be made faster, better at moving, blocking, etc.

[Scott_Arm]

But how do you implement the difficulty level for boxing where you box against another person? Or perhaps boxing is just the thing that is difficult to make and there are other waggly motion games better suited for gimmick controllers.

You cannot make the other guy any slower or smaller(or can you?). I just cannot figure out a system that would even the playfield without making it boring to either side of the audience. Against computer I can see how the difficulty could be set as the opponent can be made faster, better at moving, blocking, etc.

Playing online is never an even battlefield. With a standard gamepad, some people just have better timing, better reflexes, better internet connections, better televisions, more experience with the game etc. Some people just have better vision for tracking multiple objects. I don't think it'd be a big deal to have a more physical based game online. You could rank people as they play and have some kind of match making around that, or lobbies for casual and competitive. There's a lot of ways to help people find people of relatively the same skill level.

CPU would be easy. You just have to slow the pace of the game and shorten the game for people that aren't as coordinated or aren't in as good physical condition.

[manux]

Playing online is never an even battlefield. With a standard gamepad, some people just have better timing, better reflexes, better internet connections, better televisions, more experience with the game etc. Some people just have better vision for tracking multiple objects. I don't think it'd be a big deal to have a more physical based game online. You could rank people as they play and have some kind of match making around that, or lobbies for casual and competitive. There's a lot of ways to help people find people of relatively the same skill level.

CPU would be easy. You just have to slow the pace of the game and shorten the game for people that aren't as coordinated or aren't in as good physical condition.

Fair enough for the online match making and ranking. Though I was thinking more of a social event between friends located in same room and how to even out the skill differences to make it interesting for everybody.

[patsu]

I guess you'd have to ask her to take her dress off.

SOLD !

In the same video, from 5:09, they demonstrated drawing/writing with sub-millimeter accuracy. Can you write with a mouse?

This is what I was thinking. The Logitech 3D mouse is supposed to behave like a regular mouse when you slide it on the desk (or coffee table). It will become a Wiimote when you lift it up in the air. This is what I want (talked about this in one of my posts last year). For extended use, I need a surface to work/rest on.

To be precise, I want a stylus when operating in 2D mode, and a Wiimote in 3D mode. Once in pen mode, the drawing input will be even simpler (Complement the camera recognition, and can allow people to trace existing artwork). If they make the stylus into a mouse, it's fine too I guess (like using mouse to play FPS). Is the uber sensitive ultrasonic controller precise enough compared to gaming mouse ?

... and in outdoor, also behave like Wiimote (but totally in relative positioning so I don't have to point it to a screen under the Sun).


Natal would be cool for the 3D imaging... like an in-movie experience mentioned by someone above. I believe MS will need to implement *a lot* more software on top to abstract higher level use cases though (e.g., Giving more semantics to raw skeleton motion, such as gesture and trigger mechanics)

[obonicus]

I don't understand that argument at all. If you play for example a boxing game, and the game is challenging and entertaining, what does it matter if you are not playing at the level of a professional athlete? How is it dumbing down the experience?

You have it backwards. To make it approachable by the couch-shlub, they necessarily have to dumb it down. Because you're right. We're (mostly) not professional athletes and we don't want to be professional athletes. But if we start to dumb it down, we lose much of the supposed appeal of this system to the hardcore, and end up with a slightly (if that) more complex version of wii boxing.

[Silent_Buddha]

I dunno, perhaps it's because I'm in the twilight of my "hardcore" years.

But I have no problems seeing the attraction of Natal with regards to certain types of games as sole controller and other types of hardcore games where it's a complementary system to a standard control scheme.

As to pleasing both hardcore and casual types in the same game... Uh, why? It's rare enough that a dev even attempts to please both casual and hardcore in the same game. I can't think of one off the top of my head, but I'm sure there probably is one.

For example with most sports games, there's the hardcore ones that are big on realism, control, skill, etc... And then there are the casual ones that make it easy to play and don't require much skill. Baseballs games in Japan for example run the gamut from ultra easy and casual to some American games that focus on skill and realism.

Likewise I'm sure a dev would decide ahead of time whether to target the hardcore market that wants a little more realism and skill and the more casual market that wants an easy way to play that makes them look good.

Regards,
SB

[TheChefO]

I dunno, perhaps it's because I'm in the twilight of my "hardcore" years.

But I have no problems seeing the attraction of Natal with regards to certain types of games as sole controller and other types of hardcore games where it's a complementary system to a standard control scheme.

As to pleasing both hardcore and casual types in the same game... Uh, why? It's rare enough that a dev even attempts to please both casual and hardcore in the same game. I can't think of one off the top of my head, but I'm sure there probably is one.

For example with most sports games, there's the hardcore ones that are big on realism, control, skill, etc... And then there are the casual ones that make it easy to play and don't require much skill. Baseballs games in Japan for example run the gamut from ultra easy and casual to some American games that focus on skill and realism.

Likewise I'm sure a dev would decide ahead of time whether to target the hardcore market that wants a little more realism and skill and the more casual market that wants an easy way to play that makes them look good.

Regards,
SB

Exactly.

Hardcore gamers and casual people that like to have fun for a while with Wii are not the same.

It makes no sense to try and please these two separate audiences.

Not to say that hardcore gamers don't like to fool around a bit with some Wii sports or what not, but Wii sports makes no apology for what it is.

[obonicus]

I dunno, perhaps it's because I'm in the twilight of my "hardcore" years.

But I have no problems seeing the attraction of Natal with regards to certain types of games as sole controller and other types of hardcore games where it's a complementary system to a standard control scheme.

As to pleasing both hardcore and casual types in the same game... Uh, why? It's rare enough that a dev even attempts to please both casual and hardcore in the same game. I can't think of one off the top of my head, but I'm sure there probably is one.

For example with most sports games, there's the hardcore ones that are big on realism, control, skill, etc... And then there are the casual ones that make it easy to play and don't require much skill. Baseballs games in Japan for example run the gamut from ultra easy and casual to some American games that focus on skill and realism.

Likewise I'm sure a dev would decide ahead of time whether to target the hardcore market that wants a little more realism and skill and the more casual market that wants an easy way to play that makes them look good.

Regards,
SB

Okay. But all along, I've never had a problem with games being made for motion controls. I have no problem with some people enjoying them. My problem is that, until this E3, a whole bunch of people who had absolutely no interest in Wii Sports are now advocating that sort of game.

[betan]

Then why aren't you applying the same logic to Sony? They haven't shown anything either. So you assume that they "could" but assume that MS "can't".

Let's stop and think for a sec. I know this may be a challenge for some (not specifically you), since I keep seeing Sony references.
Sony showed that they can accurately and with extreme low latency they can track a fricking stick. Is this interesting or impressive? I'll say not as much as what you can do with an accurate, responsive 2.5d camera. But what would you show besides what you can do with the system if you were Sony? You would probably show a "paint" tool that can actually paint whereever you want, an arrow demo, a couple of selection demos or a sword demo. Seriously, what are you skeptical about Sony tech that they were afraid to show? And you talk about free passes and hypocrisy.

Now please one of you optimistic posters here, can you please answer the same question for MS? What the hell would you show if you had a decent 2.5D camera? IOW, what did you expect, what did you get? An answer would be preferable, especially without a concrete argument.

And then go on to make snide comments about MS supporters?

That I did, not about all though, specifically wrt Natal.

To be fair shouldn't you also be making snide comments about PS3 supporters and the fact that you shouldn't believe Sony's claims until they actually show a game?

Have you watch the demo? What claims you find unbelievable there? They only claimed they can (once again) accurately track a stick. Did you see a bullshit video about the things that they didn't do, or you think couldn't do? I feel like we are in a paradox now; same question same answer, same question, same answer, that surely isn't a way to constructive discussion.


Something a lot of people seem to be doing to MS, yet the whole while giving Sony a free pass.

Please stop.

Myself? I'm sure both systems have games in developement for them. What games, noone really knows. What actual capabilities will show up? Again noone really knows.

No one really knows about Natal. Why? Because ...wait for it... wait for it... yep, they haven't showed it. So is this a camera with 15cm depth resolution and 500msec latency? It may very well be, we have no idea now. What can you do with it wrt us gamers? We have no idea. OK cool. What do we know?

But to claim that because one company didn't show something you personally didn't find impressive, that's it patently impossible for them. While giving the other company a free pass even though they also didn't show anything other's found personally impressive is hypocritical at best.

That would be hypocritical if they had both showed something similar, and someone claimed one and only one of them was impressive.
There are _realtime_ zcam demos out there you know.

[betan]

No. Nor down your trousers.

Oo-er, just had a nasty thought. Did you say the z-axis resolution was 1.5 cm?

That was based on Zcam. I thought they were using similar tech at the time, but now I'm not so sure (even ignoring the controller in camera). Still, I think they may switch to that considering how much time they have to market.

[zRifle1z]

Anyone know if Sony sent out SDK's to developers? If not did they mention when they plan to?

[one]

Okay. But all along, I've never had a problem with games being made for motion controls. I have no problem with some people enjoying them. My problem is that, until this E3, a whole bunch of people who had absolutely no interest in Wii Sports are now advocating that sort of game.Watching the Sony demo, I was more impressed by AR (augmented reality) stuff than traditional-FPS/RTS-with-motion-control. I didn't like EyeToy games in which you are shown on a TV screen, but the new controller can make games like The Eye of Judgment less awkward and more believable. After ARToolKit (http://www.hitl.washington.edu/artoolkit/), currently AR is one of the hot topics in the Japanese hobby coding scene.

Anyone know if Sony sent out SDK's to developers? If not did they mention when they plan to?
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1300813&postcount=96
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1301210&postcount=103

[zRifle1z]

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1300813&postcount=96
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1301210&postcount=103

Thanks One. It will be interesting to see how such games are made for both Sony and MS. I've been looking forward to motion control, but was never impressed enough to purchase the Wii.

[Refreshment]

Wish i had the chance to participate i this discussion earlier.
Some thoughts:

-Generally the talk of the show is "Natal", yet it seems that Sony's showed, overall, a more "practical application". Makes me think that once again , marketing just scored another big victory.

-Natal technology is indeed impressive yet i share the thought that you still need a physical device with buttons. The response to this is that: "MS can eventually do this". In that case then, MS should have presented or hinted at this possibility instead of repeatedly proclaiming the "no buttons" mantra.

-Following on the "no buttons" chimera, the tag line seems to be the potential it has to attract even more people into gaming. Well i'll say its not that fundamentally different than shaping your input device like a remote controller and present your interface like tv channels.

-What happened to that segmented controller? How impractical would be to take a button for button "dual shock equivalent" and fuse it with the motion technology demoed? That way you could have a one complete input solution that is backward compatible with the previous one to guaranteed a better assimilation of the tech. Possibly pricey, but you have Nintendo proposing 80 for a complete controller.

[rabidrabbit]

If we look into the future, where will these technologies evolve, if the fundamentals stay the same?
Natal will obviously get a true HD camera and faster IR based 3D recognition with better resolution, but what else? Some peripheral with buttons, maybe?
Sony might make a "glove" based system, with led lights in fingertips (here we go back to the "Minority Report" interface) and still use some buttons in the gloves themselves.

[Shifty Geezer]

I expect everyone to use 3D cameras in the future, with a controller device too, a remote and/or some spilt thumbstick/button thing. You need all these in combination to enable every wanted interface possibility. I can't see gloves getting anywhere. Too hot, smelly, uncomfortable (one size doesn't fit all!), awkward, and what-have-you. Optical finger recognition will solve all that.

[patsu]

Okay. But all along, I've never had a problem with games being made for motion controls. I have no problem with some people enjoying them. My problem is that, until this E3, a whole bunch of people who had absolutely no interest in Wii Sports are now advocating that sort of game.

What does the Vitality sensor sense ? I am curious in Nintendo's overall plan and focus. The V. sensor is only a hint of where they are going.

Anyone know if Sony sent out SDK's to developers? If not did they mention when they plan to?

There is also a link to a ListenUp podcast with Insomniac's feedback on the new controller:
http://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3?http://podcast.the1upnetwork.com/flat/1UPYours/LUP060509.mp3

It's supposed to be very precise and the developer knows exactly where and what the player is doing with the controller (I haven't listened to it yet)

I expect everyone to use 3D cameras in the future, with a controller device too, a remote and/or some spilt thumbstick/button thing. You need all these in combination to enable every wanted interface possibility. I can't see gloves getting anywhere. Too hot, smelly, uncomfortable (one size doesn't fit all!), awkward, and what-have-you. Optical finger recognition will solve all that.

:lol: so true ! Besides finger recognition using HD and depth sensing camera (2D and 3D), I'm more thinking about a wrist band width finger extensions at the back of your hands. Once they go HD camera, it may (or may not) introduce even more lag. So a physical sensor could be useful.

[thatdude90210]

Ok, this poster at GAF (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=16213362&postcount=168) (bottom of post) showed what I meant by pointer function vs motion control all the time. It's so much quicker to just move the pointer around than waving a controller all over. It's quicker, and no less precise. With the Wii method, you can have pointer when you want, motion when you want.

And if you want to see precision, go to that youtube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yj0eJoPd7Fg) linked near that gif. Sure, not everyone have that kind of reflexes, but it shows what can be done in the right hands.

[patsu]

As I understand, when pointing at the screen, the new PS3 controller detects tilt (i.e.,wrist action) using some LED mechanism hidden inside the ball. Its function should be on par with Wii here even though it may not have a gyroscope inside (probably for cost reason). They need the location and tilt angle to superimpose virtual objects with the user's hands accurately anyway.

IMHO, the best interface for this is still the mouse. Pointing in mid-air can be torturous. Wiimote Plus is certainly very flexible and accurate though.

EDIT: Regardless of the technology, the best thing about this E3 is finally, motion sensing and Wii-like games are making head way into core gamers' mind. I think that is real and huge progress right there.

After ARToolKit (http://www.hitl.washington.edu/artoolkit/), currently AR is one of the hot topics in the Japanese hobby coding scene.

I missed this last time round. That's encouraging. I think Sony and MS should pitch their user-generated content here:
* Allow players to create simple AR applications/games like in LittleBigPlanet
* Allow developers to write AR games like in XNA (and ha ha, PSP Homebrew). The PS3 Linux should have access to these technologies too.

[Silent_Buddha]

Okay. But all along, I've never had a problem with games being made for motion controls. I have no problem with some people enjoying them. My problem is that, until this E3, a whole bunch of people who had absolutely no interest in Wii Sports are now advocating that sort of game.

Ah, well I can see your frustration from that point of view. I've never really noticed it myself as I've gone on at length with friends of mine about the fun and benefits of things like Wii Play and Wii Fit. And at the same time lack of convincing games from 3rd parties that exploit the possibilities inherent in the system.

Regards,
SB

[Naboomagnoli]

Ok, this poster at GAF (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=16213362&postcount=168) (bottom of post) showed what I meant by pointer function vs motion control all the time. It's so much quicker to just move the pointer around than waving a controller all over. It's quicker, and no less precise. With the Wii method, you can have pointer when you want, motion when you want.

And if you want to see precision, go to that youtube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yj0eJoPd7Fg) linked near that gif. Sure, not everyone have that kind of reflexes, but it shows what can be done in the right hands.

Yup. My last post on that still applies though. If you have 1:1 data going into the system, what you do with that (e.g. filtering out the tinier involuntary movements to avoid jitteriness, decreasing the amount of physical movement required to point from bottom left to top right etc) is still entirely up to you.

[patsu]

Peter Dille talked a wee bit more about the new controller:
http://kotaku.com/5283062/sony-explains-unnamed-new-ps3-motion-controller-a-little-more


First, I asked Dille, did I miss a name for this thing?

"You didn't miss it," Dille said. "There is none yet. We were careful to say that Rick Marks is the engineer. We're announcing the technology, not the product or game. He also wanted people to know the form factor of the wand is a prototype. I think it is representative of what the product will include. In other words, it will have buttons. It will have the ability to have a trigger if you're having that style of game. The button in the archery demo was key to how far you're pulling [the wand] back. And the light is detecting that. So the other key is the light on the tip of the wand. So no product name, no pricing, no specifics on the product aspect."

What Dille did confirm is that the camera used in the demo was a regular PlayStation Eye camera.

...

[Nesh]

I can't see gloves getting anywhere. Too hot, smelly, uncomfortable (one size doesn't fit all!), awkward, and what-have-you. Optical finger recognition will solve all that.

They dont have to be full worn gloves. Remember the old Sony patent?

It was only consisted of parts on which your fingers could lay on.

[rabidrabbit]

Aren't Microsoft limiting the Natal userbase to families who don't have a coffee table between the sofa and TV?
I think majority of living rooms do have such a table, which then would have to be removed every time someone wants to play with Natal.
Sounds like a small deal to just put the table on the side during playing, but I know I would not be willing to move my approximately 1,5m x 0,6m size table that is made of thick wood and not very light, every time I boot up Natal. Now most tables might not be so big and heavy, but I do think something like that actually affects if the device is left gathering dust after the novelty wears off.

Then again, Rock Band drum kit is not that living room friendly either, but nor is it as much aimed at the core casual market.

[rabidrabbit]

They dont have to be full worn gloves. Remember the old Sony patent?

It was only consisted of parts on which your fingers could lay on.
Yep, that's what was on my mind too.
http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/13250/Sony-Patents-WiimoteKiller-Game-Controller/
http://www.unwiredview.com/2007/04/13/vr-controller-for-your-ps3/

I think tactile feedback is still important in many games and applications. Kind of unny to see Microsoft willing to abandon it completely after talks of the importance of rumble tech when SIXAXIS did not have it ;)

[whome0]

Peter Dille talked a wee bit more about the new controller:
http://kotaku.com/5283062/sony-explains-unnamed-new-ps3-motion-controller-a-little-more
...It will have the ability to have a trigger if you're having that style of game. The button in the archery demo was key to how far you're pulling [the wand] back. And the light is detecting that. So the other key is the light on the tip of the wand....


So, with my limited english did I get this right. Emulating an archery users press and keep a button down, pull second wand backward to load power, release a button to shoot an arrow. Sounds fair and intuitive controls.

Only reservation is how good PS3Eye camera is detecting lightbulps in an every day living room environments, ridicilously colorful t-shirts, bad interior furnitures and wall paintings.

Current PS3Eye cannot detect an infrared if lightbulps were to emit IR. Some have said ultrasound tricks but don't think its here.

[Arwin]

@whome0: on the contrary, the ultrasound is the most important part. Read the patents, or check the topics in the technology forum.

[patsu]

Sony's tech demoes should be using the ultrasonic controller technology (complemented by PS Eye + color LED). A pure SD camera-based solution may not be able to track the player's movement so quickly and so accurately. Not to mention in the archer demo, one hand is behind (obscured by) the other. An optical solution will require some trickery to pin point the exact location of both hands.

[liolio]

@whome0: on the contrary, the ultrasound is the most important part. Read the patents, or check the topics in the technology forum.
Sony has said nothing so far about that even if it's likely as they have patent in this regard.
We basically know really few for sure about Ms and Sony tech choices so far, it kind of makes guess work interesting.

[patsu]

We were told the controller is very accurate though. A pure camera solution won't be sufficient. While Sony has not acknowledged it, the patent drawing (ultrasonic and bulb), description and performance characteristics fit the controller we saw.

Here's an interview with Shuhei about the new controlle, Project Natal and other E3 news:
http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=216937


Was the motion controller evangelised to your developers prior to its announcement?

In the past, Sony Computer Entertainment was a little bit hardware-oriented. Technology was invented in Japan and given to developers like us when that was done. But with this controller, the R&D for the camera technology has continued since EyeToy on PS2. When we decided to continue it with a motion controller on PS3, we involved representatives from the game and software research teams. So it was really a collaborative effort. It's not like we're given some secret new technology from Tokyo and have to figure out what to do.

Which studios are using it now, and what kinds of experiences can we expect?

The first thing we thought about was how to make the interface seamless and easy for consumers. That's what EyeToy achieved when we debuted on PS2, but it was a bit limited next to what you can do with this controller. We're trying to make it so precise that what you do is exactly what get in the game. You don't have to learn any specific moves; how you move already is how you move in the game. But as we learn to use this tech, more and more ideas are coming from studios that would be great to use in an adventure-type experience, or a firstperson shooter. So we're not limiting ourselves to certain types of audience or experience.

Might the controller be used alongside the DualShock in some games?

Technically, it's totally doable. We're working with the group in Tokyo to make such things simple and understandable.

How does this compare to what Microsoft is proposing with Natal?

I saw the [Natal] demonstration and it's a very sweet video; it's more futuristic and I felt like I was watching some Consumer Electronics Show event. What I think they're trying to do is continue on the path we began with EyeToy and PlayStation Eye, removing the barrier between consumers and games. That's very natural when it comes to what you have to learn. However, we know from working with camera technology for a long time that just using the camera without precisely detecting what the consumer wants to do, with buttons and triggers, is quite difficult, especially when bringing it into the game context. So while it's very interesting, what we're providing with our technology is very different.

[catisfit]

I can't see gloves getting anywhere. Too hot, smelly, uncomfortable (one size doesn't fit all!), awkward, and what-have-you. Optical finger recognition will solve all that.

True, optical finger recognition will solve the problems with gloves (hot, smelly, uncomfortable), while gloves solve the problems with optical finger recognition (actually being able to detect the position of the fingers in all cases) :smile:

If you really want finger recognition (and I can't see a reason why you would), you need to use gloves. Optical finger recognition from a single PoV will always have situations where it cannot possibly work, the easiest example being occlusion, whether it be putting hands behind your back or holding an object, or simply pointing your arm or fingers away from the camera. Even as simple an action as putting your fingers together or making a fist causes problems for optical finger recognition.

This is without even considering practical issues with optical techniques, such as resolution (or lack of it) and lag.

[catisfit]

The Sony system suggests more than a purely visual technique to me, simply by looking at the resolution of PSEye, the distance from the camera to the ball, the size of the ball, and the depth accuracy they were getting.

[ShadowRunner]

If the ball on top of the controller is emitting its own light then it would be extremely easy and accurate to track using a IR sensitive camera (which i believe the PSEye is). They should be able to track the controller on the xy axis accurately using just this. Tracking of depth on the z axis would be done using the ultrasound component alone. The orientation of the controller would be tracked in the same way as wii's motion plus using gyroscopes. Using these three components together gives you all you need for 1:1 tracking and positioning in 3d space.

This is my view on exactly how it works, anyone think otherwise?

EDIT:
First result on google on whether the PSEye is IR sensitive was a post by shifty on this very forum: http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1124532&postcount=26
Can i ask you to confirm this shifty? Im assuming when you talk about IR filters you mean on the software side and not some sort if colour gel type filter needing to be placed physically in front of the camera?

[Arwin]

The patents certainly suggest that the device is using ultrasound for depth (z) and visual cues for horizontal and vertical movement (x/y). However, an interview with Kaz Hirai at E3 seems to suggest that they've since dropped the ultrasound and only use visual tracking now using the size of the ball for depth:


http://audioboo.fm/boos/27700-e3-final-day

The only thing I can think of now is that the precision comes from that you know what you are tracking is a perfect circle. In that case what the software needs to do is:

1) find the circle in the image
2) map the digital image to a perfect circle of a certain size to determine x/y/z.

I think given a digital input image you don't actually even need a very high resolution to still get very precise input, as luminence is going to help also?

If Kaz has it right (you'd think so, but stranger things have happened), it's interesting and it has a number of implications.

[ShadowRunner]

The patents certainly suggest that the device is using ultrasound for depth (z) and visual cues for horizontal and vertical movement (x/y). However, an interview with Kaz Hirai at E3 seems to suggest that they've since dropped the ultrasound and only use visual tracking now using the size of the ball for depth:


http://audioboo.fm/boos/27700-e3-final-day

The only thing I can think of now is that the precision comes from that you know what you are tracking is a perfect circle. In that case what the software needs to do is:

1) find the circle in the image
2) map the digital image to a perfect circle of a certain size to determine x/y/z.

I think given a digital input image you don't actually even need a very high resolution to still get very precise input, as luminence is going to help also?

If Kaz has it right (you'd think so, but stranger things have happened), it's interesting and it has a number of implications.

If you apply an IR filter you probably dont have to bother trying to find the circle in the image, you would just look for a IR scource that falls within an expected size range and then measure its diameter to determine depth.

[Shifty Geezer]

True, optical finger recognition will solve the problems with gloves (hot, smelly, uncomfortable), while gloves solve the problems with optical finger recognition (actually being able to detect the position of the fingers in all cases) :smile:

If you really want finger recognition (and I can't see a reason why you would...A-ha! There is where my argument trumps yours in the middle ground. I'm thinking the applications where finger detection is useful are situation where purely optical will work. Specifically, giving instructions through hand gestures - fingers closed, open palm to camera; spread hand; counting fingers; pointing. Really fine finger detection is probably beyond the point of any useful gaming applications, and is the domain of professional applications. eg. The guitar playing detection is useless for games if the players haven't spent years learning the guitar! There's no need for that level of finesse in a console interface (this is setting me up for a fail - what's the betting the future becomes tiny finger motions!)


Can i ask you to confirm this shifty? Im assuming when you talk about IR filters you mean on the software side and not some sort if colour gel type filter needing to be placed physically in front of the camera?
An actual physical filter. All the software gets in an RGB valus. It can't determine what caused the pixel to light up. The CCD is senstive to IR. Plug in your PSEye/EyeToy and shine a TV remote at it, you'll see the black bulb pulses white through the camera.

Thinking about it, especially with 120 Hz capture, they could exploit this and track a pulsating point. If it alternates between black and white every frame, it'll be a target point for the camera to follow

[Arwin]

A-ha! There is where my argument trumps yours in the middle ground. I'm thinking the applications where finger detection is useful are situation where purely optical will work. Specifically, giving instructions through hand gestures - fingers closed, open palm to camera; spread hand; counting fingers; pointing. Really fine finger detection is probably beyond the point of any useful gaming applications, and is the domain of professional applications. eg. The guitar playing detection is useless for games if the players haven't spent years learning the guitar! There's no need for that level of finesse in a console interface (this is setting me up for a fail - what's the betting the future becomes tiny finger motions!)

I agree with you in general. In principle though I think you cannot make a gesture with one hand where a finger's position cannot be deduced from the position of the rest of the hand. So eventually it should always be possible.

One of the first things I thought of when I saw Natal in action was that a great testing application to find the limits / strengths of the device is by trying to teach it sign language.

[patsu]

The patents certainly suggest that the device is using ultrasound for depth (z) and visual cues for horizontal and vertical movement (x/y). However, an interview with Kaz Hirai at E3 seems to suggest that they've since dropped the ultrasound and only use visual tracking now using the size of the ball for depth:


http://audioboo.fm/boos/27700-e3-final-day

The only thing I can think of now is that the precision comes from that you know what you are tracking is a perfect circle. In that case what the software needs to do is:

1) find the circle in the image
2) map the digital image to a perfect circle of a certain size to determine x/y/z.

I think given a digital input image you don't actually even need a very high resolution to still get very precise input, as luminence is going to help also?

If Kaz has it right (you'd think so, but stranger things have happened), it's interesting and it has a number of implications.

Ha ha, liolio is right !

If it's using only the bulb and PS Eye, the controller should be cheap, but it won't work outside line-of-sight then. The thing is it may be doable using PSP too :-P !

Some interesting images from Titanio again:
http://i42.tinypic.com/eb4oas.jpg (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=16237604&postcount=1503)

http://i41.tinypic.com/2l8zxxi.jpg (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=16237641&postcount=1505)

They seem to be one year old (from USPTO), so things may have changed.


One of the first things I thought of when I saw Natal in action was that a great testing application to find the limits / strengths of the device is by trying to teach it sign language.

Yap ! And "puppeteering" I supposed.... like using fingers to strangle and fly-kick enemies :). The use is rather esoteric but very expressive (!). I originally wanted to track guitar fingers but were running into trouble thinking about the contact/trigger issue. That's why I thought about using ribbons (instead of 3D finger detection). I could tie the ribbons on the string to detect vibration instead of tracking the hand motion.

[catisfit]

If Kaz has it right (you'd think so, but stranger things have happened), it's interesting and it has a number of implications.

It would be very interesting if they are doing that. My back of the envelope calculations (using the best possible characteristics of the PSEye of FOV: 56 degrees, resolution: 640 pixels), show that a ball with a diameter of an inch would take up 8 pixels at it's widest point at a distance of 1.91m from the camera. It would take up 7 pixels at it's widest point at 2.18m.

27cm of depth in a change of a pixel in diameter?

At 3m it would cover 5.1 pixels at it's widest point, at 4m: 3.8 pixels (1.3 pixels for a meter depth). I just don't see the resolution here to generate 1:1 depth on visuals alone.

A-ha! There is where my argument trumps yours in the middle ground. I'm thinking the applications where finger detection is useful are situation where purely optical will work. Specifically, giving instructions through hand gestures - fingers closed, open palm to camera; spread hand; counting fingers; pointing.

So I guess we are talking about actual finger recognition (me), and using fingers to create recognisable shapes, but not holding anything or using two hands together (you). If you hold your hand out in a specific way in front of the camera, it's just pattern matching, isn't it?

BTW, fair enough if that is the extent of the "finger recognition" you are talking about. I tend to think of "finger recognition" in the more general sense.

I agree with you in general. In principle though I think you cannot make a gesture with one hand where a finger's position cannot be deduced from the position of the rest of the hand. So eventually it should always be possible.

Imagine the camera sees something like this (http://www.bnglifecasting.com/diy/hand/bubbles.jpg). Are the fingers outstretched or are they in a fist? (You can just about tell from this image but Googling images of particular hand positions is quite difficult :wink:).

[Shifty Geezer]

So I guess we are talking about actual finger recognition (me), and using fingers to create recognisable shapes, but not holding anything or using two hands together (you). If you hold your hand out in a specific way in front of the camera, it's just pattern matching, isn't it?

BTW, fair enough if that is the extent of the "finger recognition" you are talking about. I tend to think of "finger recognition" in the more general sense.With respect to Natal, the origin of this discussion, the question is whether the 48 joints include fingers, and the consensus is they don't, that the hand is represented as a joint in the centre of the plam or somesuch, and the position of the fingers is irrelevant. I think the definition of 'finger recognition' meaning 'can we spot any fingers and what shape do they make; to be apt. Joint-level finger tracking is going to require some contact sensors I imagine, or some insane image recognition methods. I still can't think of any use for that level of tracking though. A virtual piano could be managed just with placement of a digit in an area of the FOV, for example. Perhaps the main use for true digit tracking would be in VR with correct vitrual object placement, graphic occlusion, and finger interaction with a creature?

[patsu]

It would be very interesting if they are doing that. My back of the envelope calculations (using the best possible characteristics of the PSEye of FOV: 56 degrees, resolution: 640 pixels), show that a ball with a diameter of an inch would take up 8 pixels at it's widest point at a distance of 1.91m from the camera. It would take up 7 pixels at it's widest point at 2.18m.

27cm of depth in a change of a pixel in diameter?

At 3m it would cover 5.1 pixels at it's widest point, at 4m: 3.8 pixels (1.3 pixels for a meter depth). I just don't see the resolution here to generate 1:1 depth on visuals alone.

That's why I originally thought they couldn't get rid of the ultrasound mechanism. The SD camera resolution may not be fine enough. If Kaz is wrong, I'd imagine someone from Sony would correct him soon.

[Scott_Arm]

With respect to Natal, the origin of this discussion, the question is whether the 48 joints include fingers, and the consensus is they don't, that the hand is represented as a joint in the centre of the plam or somesuch, and the position of the fingers is irrelevant. I think the definition of 'finger recognition' meaning 'can we spot any fingers and what shape do they make; to be apt. Joint-level finger tracking is going to require some contact sensors I imagine, or some insane image recognition methods. I still can't think of any use for that level of tracking though. A virtual piano could be managed just with placement of a digit in an area of the FOV, for example. Perhaps the main use for true digit tracking would be in VR with correct vitrual object placement, graphic occlusion, and finger interaction with a creature?

If they could track the curvature of your fingers, or your thumb, they'd be able to determine wrist rotation. The lack of finger tracking isn't a big minus for me. I think if everything is working they should be able to make enough cool stuff without it.

I'm still interested in knowing if they can detect a bent wrist.

[wco81]

Lets say they get all this working and delivered at affordable prices.

So instead of pretending to play guitar with a fake guitar in Guitar Hero (which itself is a lame concept), you'd be playing air guitar?

Or shadow-boxing in some future versions of Fight Night?

The popularity of Wii notwithstanding and no matter how much more immersive this may be, it's going to look retarded people flailing about in front of their TVs.

[obonicus]

Well, it is playing videogames. We gamers have perfected the art of looking stupid in front of TVs (though there are different degrees of stupidity).

[patsu]

Lets say they get all this working and delivered at affordable prices.

So instead of pretending to play guitar with a fake guitar in Guitar Hero (which itself is a lame concept), you'd be playing air guitar?

Or shadow-boxing in some future versions of Fight Night?

The popularity of Wii notwithstanding and no matter how much more immersive this may be, it's going to look retarded people flailing about in front of their TVs.

Uh-huh... I am thinking as a UI and gaming extension, if the system can track fingers accurately, you may not need to flail your entire body to look retarded. One may be able to express a lot more actions using just 2 hands. While the systems may not be able to handle it reliably (especially far enough), I think both PS Eye and Project Natal can track them under very specific conditions.

For very subtle use that requires more than just motion (e.g., guitar playing), we will need more sophisticated mechanism.

[Iron Tiger]

Sony's tech demoes should be using the ultrasonic controller technology (complemented by PS Eye + color LED). A pure SD camera-based solution may not be able to track the player's movement so quickly and so accurately. Not to mention in the archer demo, one hand is behind (obscured by) the other. An optical solution will require some trickery to pin point the exact location of both hands.
With an ultrasonic solution, sound can be even more easily occluded. When I tried Gametrak's demo, they kept saying "don't think of it like a Wiimote" when you'd try small tilting, accelerometer-inputting motions, but whenever it became unresponsive, it was because I wasn't pointed directly at the sensor bars on the sides of the screen. I think the best solution would be gyroscopic + visual. When out of line-of-sight, the game can still track rate and vector of motion.

[MfA]

My guess is that the bulb is a bit of a compromise based on avoiding patent coverage.

[wco81]

I think a lot of people are interested in the technology but ultimately people playing air guitar is just sad.

[TheChefO]

...but ultimately people playing air guitar is just sad.

ehh ....

[betan]

It would be very interesting if they are doing that. My back of the envelope calculations (using the best possible characteristics of the PSEye of FOV: 56 degrees, resolution: 640 pixels), show that a ball with a diameter of an inch would take up 8 pixels at it's widest point at a distance of 1.91m from the camera. It would take up 7 pixels at it's widest point at 2.18m.

27cm of depth in a change of a pixel in diameter?

At 3m it would cover 5.1 pixels at it's widest point, at 4m: 3.8 pixels (1.3 pixels for a meter depth). I just don't see the resolution here to generate 1:1 depth on visuals alone.


I think they can do significantly better than that considering silhouette boundary pixels carry much more information than a single (binary) bit, thanks to inherit low pass filtering.
For ideal lighting and coloring conditions you can get practically perfect readings.

My guess is that the bulb is a bit of a compromise based on avoiding patent coverage.

Which patent?

[patsu]

I think a lot of people are interested in the technology but ultimately people playing air guitar is just sad.

:lol: It could get worse ! If the gestures can be tracked accurately and quickly, I am actually thinking about controlling 2 players at the same time in FIFA using my left and right hands. Just do a running man gesture on both hands, and have them pass a virtual ball between the 2 hands. I think I can do banana kick or bicycle kick using the fingers too (simulate leg movement). :-P

I find the control scheme for sports games like MLB 2009 much much too hard (Too many button combination to remember). Don't know about FIFA.