Old Discussion Thread for all 3 motion controllers [Archive] - Page 13

liolio

16-Jun-2010, 23:27

I've got to say, if you can't use the motion sensing at all while sitting down, that does cripple a lot of the useful UI demos they were showing off. For games, it kills the idea of playing a game like End War, or standard games that augment. Even Forza ... Would you really want to stand up to play Forza? They better hope there is enough good content to make you want to stay on your feet if conventional games are mostly ruled out.
Standard, lengthy games are already out of the realm of possibilities... Sport game are nice but most people can't keep with them for too long. Most people barely stand sport and average efforts already.
How something can be casual if it's limit to healthy pretty young people?
Every time I palyed the Wii we were on a couch, I can consider getting up for some games but a handful of games: sports, dance, fighting, board games (on top of my head) for most other games it doesn't look worse the effort imho.
Most wii party games which you can play for the evening with friends are "couch compatible" never though I would say that :lol: .

Shifty Geezer

16-Jun-2010, 23:28

I'm sure they showed someone sitting down using the video controls in their garish lifestyle clip. Was that a blatant lie?

v9Vhu6YcBDE

I have to say bogus. I can't believe Forza 4 and such have been created knowing players have to stand. Getting a fix on a seated person may be tricky, and perhaps you have to start standing, but the torsa should be followable.

patsu

16-Jun-2010, 23:30

MfA

16-Jun-2010, 23:32

Damn it, thought I could delete that :)

I don't think this is about rushing it out the door ... I think this is about desperately wanting to fill a gap to keep people interested which would normally be filled by a new console generation. I think they will fail, despite all the bruhaha the real console gamers won't be impressed by what the controller can do in real games (even the Nintendo gamers aren't that impressed with the Wiimote for non party games). I think the casuals will be satisfied with the Wii's they already have for the most part. (Although I have to admit dance games which actually try to teach people to dance are a very good idea, bit of a niche though.)

Arwin

16-Jun-2010, 23:33

If it is an issue currently, they probably think they'll be able to fix it. Anyway, the dance game still works, and almost all of the gameplay currently asks you to use your full body - that's it's strength. It does make sense though, because otherwise I would have expected Forza to be shown with head-tracking for instance, and maybe at least one other game that combines a regular controller with Kinetic stuff.

Also, conspicuously absent was anything involving augmented reality. This is not in the five worry points, but for me personally it could suggest they're either suffering from the 30fps video feed or the augmented reality stuff is currently still too laggy.

liolio

16-Jun-2010, 23:36

Damn it, thought I could delete that :)
indeed I wondered why I could not quote you :)

I guess that you realize that dismissing solo gaming even for casual games is something.
Actually it would be good for kids and quiet some people to stand on their feet and move their body for longer than they're used to, I may accept as extra workout (i like sport) but mass market is unlikely to accept that imho.

Neb

16-Jun-2010, 23:37

Saw this at GAF:

http://twitter.com/aarongreenberg

@SixOkay @aarongreenberg @Stepto http://bit.ly/aqQOtR what the?! Kinect only works standing up! whats the point of menu navigation demo ???
@hasanahmad @sixokay Yes you can sit or stand with Kinect, depends on the game or experience.

Dunno how trusthworthy it is.

liolio

16-Jun-2010, 23:38

Dunno hwo accurate but this:

http://twitter.com/aarongreenberg

@
Hope it's true as it's an unacceptable issue for 2008 :lol:
Ms has prompt to react which will remain suspect in people mind (me in first place) the issue is that big.

Scott_Arm

16-Jun-2010, 23:43

Standard, lengthy games are already out of the realm of possibilities... Sport game are nice but most people can't keep with them for too long. Most people barely stand sport and average efforts already.
How something can be casual if it's limit to healthy pretty young people?
Every time I palyed the Wii we were on a couch, I can consider getting up for some games but a handful of games: sports, dance, fighting, board games (on top of my head) for most other games it doesn't look worse the effort imho.
Most wii party games which you can play for the evening with friends are "couch compatible" never though I would say that :lol: .

Well, I was thinking of things like headtracking in a racing or fps game, but still using the standard control for movement etc. Or maybe an co-op or multiplayer game where you could wave at the screen and have your character wave at another player, but still play the game with the gamepad. Things like that. I still think they could get a game like End War or the Sims to work, maybe, with a combination of motion and voice control.

I really hope it is usable sitting down.

chris1515

16-Jun-2010, 23:47

http://www.gameblog.fr/news_14724_natal-prix-et-soucis-techniques-nos-infos

It is the gameblog article:

La détection des corps connaîtrait encore des problèmes : en étant trop proche d'un canapé par exemple, le système irait jusqu'à détecter un second humain n'existant pas.

They said when you are near a couch you could have some problem!!!

patsu

16-Jun-2010, 23:47

Where did the rumor start ? Only from an unnamed developer or from the show floor ? Can't people take a chair and play Kinect games in E3 now ? Or does the article mention specific kind of environment and furniture ?

djskribbles

16-Jun-2010, 23:48

chris1515

16-Jun-2010, 23:50

Where did the rumor start ? Only from an unnamed developer or from the show floor ? Can't people take a chair and play Kinect games in E3 now ?

It is from the showfloor via IGN but Gameblog talk about the rumor since April via an unnamed game developper. I never post the article but now IGN said Kinect is working only when you stand up.

patsu

16-Jun-2010, 23:53

I see. Then it should be easy to verify. Didn't DF just analyze Kinect ?

MS is probably working hard to fix it, or at least address the IGN and Gameblog concerns.

chris1515

16-Jun-2010, 23:56

I see. Then it should be easy to verify. Didn't DF just analyze Kinect ?

MS is probably working hard to fix it, or at least address the IGN and Gameblog concerns.

All the demonstration at E3 are probably with people standing up.

Cyan

17-Jun-2010, 00:00

If it's true, it's absurd. It's a fatally flawed product. It simply can't be true, because I can't believe they would make this sort of investment in a product believing they could trick the consumers long enough to recover their costs.

As soon as the first 1000 people bought this and realized the 'hidden' secret of not being able to play in a seated position, their sales would end.
Agreed! Entirely! Also, seriously, what about people in a wheelchair? It's a serious matter. Those could play perfectly with a Move or Wiimote. And not to mention old people.

I remember time ago a Burnout demo where the player was sitting using the hands to control the wheel and the feet to accelerate and brake.... Weird.

Camera €40
Move Controller €50 x 2
Sub Controller €30 x 2
------------------------
€200

I'm not sure if there actually will be 2 player games that use two Move controllers per player. Will there?

The above setup will likely be what most people that want two player setup buy at first, with additional Move controllers bought later if needed.
I believe even with just two move controllers and a camera, most of the casual two player games can be played.
I think Sony should create a (1 player or 2 players) bundle with all the controllers at a better, more moderate, price. I mean, especially for casual gamers who don't know exactly the hardware pieces that compose Move but are very interested in the PS3 and Move.

I think this would help them to buy the whole package without getting home switching the console on and when they want to play noticing *something* seems to be missing but they don't know what it is.

I know well how it feels, :cry: buying something you really want so very much, like a little treasure, and getting home just to feel discouraged and lose the amazing excitement you felt to realize that it doesn't look or work like you thought.

boommoob1

17-Jun-2010, 00:40

I think Sony should create a (1 player or 2 players) bundle with all the controllers at a better, more moderate, price. I mean, especially for casual gamers who don't know exactly the hardware pieces that compose Move but are very interested in the PS3 and Move.

I think this would help them to buy the whole package without getting home switching the console on and when they want to play noticing *something* seems to be missing but they don't know what it is.

That would likely mean them selling the PS3 at a loss again. I think there's very little chance of them doing that. My personal opinion is that Sony view this more as a transitional product. Getting everyone used to motion controls on the Playstation, rather than expecting blockbuster sales like MS seem to expect with Kinect, atleast until they can drop the PS3's price anyway.

Next gen should be interesting from them. SCEI have been filing motion control patents since the 90's.

Mindfury

17-Jun-2010, 00:49

http://gamevideos.1up.com/video/id/29918
Demo in real time.

About 7:30 in, he's clearing kneeling down, and still able to navigate.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=21906516&postcount=47

JPT

17-Jun-2010, 00:58

I've been thinking about all this motion control stuff for awhile, in regards to my own gaming and from thatm I am seriously in doubt it will be something I will use much.

My living room isnt that big, and there is a table in between the couch and the TV and moving it out of the way to play a bit and then move it back isn't really an option. I expect that I'm not the only one in this situation. And I only expect to use it with Tiger Woods 11 anyway :)
But if am Eskrima/Kali/Arnis game shows up, I'll guess I'll be getting two move controllers ;) Heck any double action sword fighting would get me out of the couch.

As for the accuracy, I keep reading that the Move is much more accurate than the Wii solution. But I wonder is it accurate/fast enough? I tried Wii boxing and it was a horrible experience, to me a tleast, where slowing down your punches or really exaggerate a move to get the system to register it..

joker454

17-Jun-2010, 00:59

Though I agree with everything else you've written, there's a reason to bring up lag. You can't play table tennis when there's a fifth of a second between you swinging for a ball and your bat actually moving. The only way to make that work is to change the nature of the table-tennis game so it's not a simulation but a game based on the ideas of table tennis, much how Wii Tennis wasn't really tennis.

That's pretty much what they had to do for Move table tennis as well. In it's initial form it was unplayable because of the lag from the Move controller, and because there's no real three space ball that the user is following so it's harder than it seems to smack it back with a virtual paddle. So it was dumbed down and that's perfectly ok, tailor the experience to the device. They will have to do the same with Kinect apps, no biggie. It's not a whole lot different from dealing with say lag in network games, there is a lot of lag there but it's possible to mitigate it enough to make the online experience still fun.

patsu

17-Jun-2010, 01:09

There should be a lag threshold for different game and people. Once that threshold is exceeded, the user may play it differently e.g., consciously slow down your punches/strokes (like JPT), or lose interest.

From what I have played in Wii table tennis, the lag is unnoticeable. It feels really natural. And I felt connected to the game.

Arwin

17-Jun-2010, 01:16

That's pretty much what they had to do for Move table tennis as well. In it's initial form it was unplayable because of the lag from the Move controller, and because there's no real three space ball that the user is following so it's harder than it seems to smack it back with a virtual paddle. So it was dumbed down and that's perfectly ok, tailor the experience to the device.

That whole set of games has three difficulty levels for everything. The Easy mode has loads of assists making the game much easier, but the Hard level is pretty much a hardcore simulation. There was an interview on this.

They will have to do the same with Kinect apps, no biggie. It's not a whole lot different from dealing with say lag in network games, there is a lot of lag there but it's possible to mitigate it enough to make the online experience still fun.

You can only mitigate so much though. But actually some games are easy to calibrate this for. You just put the actual hit box as much forward as the amount of lag you need to compensate for. It's like driving a car from behind the car versus driving from the bumper view - your mind will have to adjust, but it's fairly easily done. And the actual lag is then only going to be an issue for things like tilting your racket or giving effects.

That said, the precision on the Move is going to make stuff like table tennis far superior to their competitors IF you're looking to get as realistic a replication. Adding 3D to that is going to bring that to a pretty extreme level of simulation I think. Same for golf - they showed it as a full sim. Not everyone will like that, and it is not necessary for most casuals, but it will add a level of depth.

Also, if Kinect has significant enough lag, that's going to make playing using Kinect online even harder. There's only so much lag you can compensate for.

It doesn't change my opinion on it though that Kinect will allow for some really awesome new game experiences, and same for the Move. I'm just thinking that right now, the Move controller has the potential to actually replace and enhance almost all gameplay experiences, including very core stuff, and that's something that has the potential to reach a lot of current gamers. Kinect on the other hand opens up possibilities for some completely new stuff that brings in new players. You don't need that many games to make that a success, but I don't feel that Microsoft quite has them yet (certainly with the most impressive titles now coming from third party again, though Microsoft won't care).

I'm glad all these systems exist anyway! Look forward to what they'll bring to the table.

egoless

17-Jun-2010, 01:33

The explosion of "Kinect only works standing!?" over the web is similar to the "Crossfire is limited to 1600x1200 resolution" of a few years ago. The response that this is not true is trickling out there, so congrats on the mountain out of a mole hill that is internet drama. Please return to the regularly scheduled program of but eyetoy, wii-too, lag and of course hanging joker out to dry. ;)

Did I see that right that you can buy Move without the camera? Isn't it required? So is it like WiiPlay in which you mask the sale of an essential component with a game?

Did I see someone earlier say you can use the DS3 instead of the nunchuck? Ok, then of the same token, can't you use a 360 controller in tandem with Kinect?

patsu

17-Jun-2010, 01:36

Did I see that right that you can buy Move without the camera? Isn't it required? So is it like WiiPlay in which you mask the sale of an essential component with a game?

You only need 1 PS Eye for multiple players.

Did I see someone earlier say you can use the DS3 instead of the nunchuck? Ok, then of the same token, can't you use a 360 controller in tandem with Kinect?

No one said you can't ! The point was that you can swap the nunchuck with a DS3 if you don't want to spend extra $$$.

Scott_Arm

17-Jun-2010, 02:10

Starting to see some negatives across the board. It's all prep for next gen.

http://gizmodo.com/5565294/playstation-move-isnt-much-more-than-a-wii-hd

draconian

17-Jun-2010, 02:19

Well I guess MS still has things to work out. But from the fitness demo by ubisoft, the device was clearly picking up the body and certainly at a good enough resolution for it to work properly while someone is sitting down. Now, the software I can see would be tricky. It's a complex problem like voice recognition. But nothing I see as insurmoutable.

patsu

17-Jun-2010, 02:27

Starting to see some negatives across the board. It's all prep for next gen.

http://gizmodo.com/5565294/playstation-move-isnt-much-more-than-a-wii-hd

The article says PS Move isn't much more than Wii for first gen games.

There are games he liked, and games that need more improvement.

Now, whether Sony can make sure a few bad apples don't taint the consumer's perspective of the bunch, whether Sony can entice developers to stick with the platform through its growing pains, these are the "ifs" that cloud the future the Move platform. But based upon my early hands ons? It's a Wiimote HD, for better and worse.

Scott_Arm

17-Jun-2010, 02:37

Well, I guess the impression is not super negative, but it highlights some of the same problems the Wii has.

patsu

17-Jun-2010, 02:50

I wouldn't mind playing a game similar to WiiSports Resort on the PS3, but as a technically inclined person, I'd love to see some more improvements.

The use of PSEye may be key here.

Too bad he didn't get to try Sorcery. Based on what I have seen so far, I think it's one of the more interesting Move games. At this point in time, I have a hunch "core" games such as Sorcery, Socom 4, Heavy Rain, MLB 2010, and LBP2 may define the Move experiences (mostly for gamers). This is where Wii is relatively weaker. Sports Championship, Move Party and EyePet are hygiene factors (They need to be there but won't win any war against Wii since the latter owns the casual space).

Because of how Sony positioned PS Move (separate from PSEye games), the author also missed existing core games such as GT5 (head tracking).

Scott_Arm

17-Jun-2010, 02:55

Engadget impression of Move seems better

http://www.engadget.com/2010/06/16/sony-playstation-move-hands-on-at-e3-these-lollypops-dont-lie/

obonicus

17-Jun-2010, 02:58

Too bad he didn't get to try Sorcery. Based on what I have seen so far, I think it's one of the more interesting Move games. At this point in time, I have a hunch "core" games such as Sorcery, Socom 4, Heavy Rain, MLB 2010, and LBP2 may define the Move experiences (mostly for gamers).

This is how Sony first brought up Move. Then at GDC they did their Move Sports, Move Party, etc. games just like people said they would.

patsu

17-Jun-2010, 03:00

Then at GDC they did their Move Sports, Move Party, etc. games just like people said they would.

What do you mean ?

obonicus

17-Jun-2010, 03:04

Wacky gadgets ahoy:

http://www.engadget.com/2010/06/16/playstation-move-shooting-attachment-in-pictures-the-ray-gun-yo/

I kind of want that, but I want one that you can replace the wand for a Nerf(tm) core.

What do you mean?

That the 'super garmer-oriented precision' promised didn't prevent us from getting the Sony version of everything the Wii had already.

patsu

17-Jun-2010, 03:23

That the 'super garmer-oriented precision' promised didn't prevent us from getting the Sony version of everything the Wii had already.

Yes, they're low hanging fruits.

The first parties will most likely extend their existing games to toy with the tech. The really different/innovative Move game will come later.

Nonetheless, everyone else -- including myself -- will want the unqiue Move app/game first. :)

Scott_Arm

17-Jun-2010, 03:24

What kind of latency does a USB 2.0 interface have? Just curious if lag in Natal and Move (for Eye) could be attributed to latency in the USB 2.0 interface. USB 3.0 will be standard next gen, so would that be a big latency improvement? I'm hoping LightPeak makes an entrance into the console market. It would be a good deal for Intel to push the tech.

patsu

17-Jun-2010, 03:35

The motion data comes from Move's internal sensors wirelessly. The PS Eye is only used to pinpoint the absolute position of the controller. I think they don't have to calculate the position frequently since the magnetic field sensor helps to calibrate the gyro and accelerometer.

EDIT: USB 2.0 (480Mbit/s) should have enough bandwidth for PSEye (320 x 240 @ 120Hz) anyway.

Scott_Arm

17-Jun-2010, 03:39

patsu

17-Jun-2010, 03:44

If you read the calibration process for the fight game, it sounds like they are calibrating relative to Eye. And they tell the person not to move around after calibration, so I'm assuming it messes up the reference point to the camera.

Yes I saw that and was wondering why they need to recalibrate after every game (Some other apps didn't seem to require frequent calibration). Will have to wait for another indepth technical article. Could be an app issue or a system issue (e.g., changing player after one mini-game session if the app doesn't use facial recognition; or in general, calibration at the app level for gesture recognition). No idea.

I believe people reported that the Fight game has noticeable lag. May be they are still working out the kinks.

Scott_Arm

17-Jun-2010, 03:53

It seems to me they're using eye to sense depth and they have the player outstretch their arms forward to calibrate the full extension of their arm. Stepping forwards and backwards would be the same as stretching your arm, as far as Eye could tell, which is probably why they told them not to move from the spot they were standing.

patsu

17-Jun-2010, 03:56

The PSEye can sense the absolute position of the ball with millimeter accuracy, not just the depth. My guess is that app may be determining your swing distance (from a fixed location) to simplify gesture recognition. Probably need to interview the developers for the real reason.

Scott_Arm

17-Jun-2010, 04:17

Within a millimeter at what distance from Eye? I'm guessing they are using eye to sense the reach on your punch, like you said, which is why they don't want you stepping from the spot where you calibrated. How can they tell if you're extending your arm, or stepping forward?

patsu

17-Jun-2010, 04:34

tha_con

17-Jun-2010, 04:38

I'm sure they showed someone sitting down using the video controls in their garish lifestyle clip. Was that a blatant lie?

I have to say bogus. I can't believe Forza 4 and such have been created knowing players have to stand. Getting a fix on a seated person may be tricky, and perhaps you have to start standing, but the torsa should be followable.

I know I'm late to the discussion, but I'm going to say not bogus...for now. If you watch the "Your Shape" Fitness videos, you'll notice that her outline can get blurry, and from time to time her arms 'melt into her body' so to speak, when she drops them to her sides (If I'm remembering correctly).

It looked like they were pulling information directly from the camera and 'rendering' that image, but it was obvious that it had some issues separating her body.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xd3QY0tSfck

You can see it pretty clearly there.

egoless

17-Jun-2010, 04:39

You only need 1 PS Eye for multiple players.

Right, and you only need 1 PS Eye to get going. I have a launch 60GB PS3 and a DS3. So the initial cost to 1 player for the COMPLETE Move experience is.... Adding more players seems to be the same cost as Wii.

No one said you can't ! The point was that you can swap the nunchuck with a DS3 if you don't want to spend extra $$$.

Sure, but it wouldn't be comfortable since the weight would be distributed incorrectly for one handed use, when the other hand is using the wand. Correct? Since the Move is all about precision/accuracy and gamer's games, at least from the secondary marketing perspective, I'm expected to play for longer than party game length. Which, halfing it with a DS3, won't work well for typical gamer's games long gaming sessions. Unless I'm not understanding you correctly.

patsu

17-Jun-2010, 04:53

Right, and you only need 1 PS Eye to get going. I have a launch 60GB PS3 and a DS3. So the initial cost to 1 player for the COMPLETE Move experience is.... Adding more players seems to be the same cost as Wii.

It depends on the game you want to play. Some games use 2 Moves. Some use 1 Move and a nunchuck/DS3. Others only need 1 Move. The most optimal is probably 2 Moves and 2 nunchucks (for 2P).

Sure, but it wouldn't be comfortable since the weight would be distributed incorrectly for one handed use, when the other hand is using the wand. Correct? Since the Move is all about precision/accuracy and gamer's games, at least from the secondary marketing perspective, I'm expected to play for longer than party game length. Which, halfing it with a DS3, won't work well for typical gamer's games long gaming sessions. Unless I'm not understanding you correctly.

It would be up to individual preferences. I would want a nunchuck but some may be ok with a DS3. For these people, they'd rest the DS3 partially on their laps while playing.

Also I don't think the nunchuck has any built-in sensors, but I am not sure.

Scott_Arm

17-Jun-2010, 04:54

The range of Move is 3 - 10 feet according to here:
http://www.kotaku.com.au/2010/03/the-possibilities-surprises-and-limits-of-playstations-move-according-to-the-inventor/

Need head tracking to estimate like the puppetry example.

So, 1mm at 3 feet or 10 feet? Accuracy would be different at either range. Not that it really matters. I'm sure it's precise enough. Those kinds of numbers always make me skeptical. I'm used to less than honest measurements from the audio world.

But if I punch and my head moves forward or side to side, then what? Are they going to estimate how far forward my head moved, or have some tolerance and if you go beyond that, wipe the punch data? Seems like they'd be doing a lot to check if I moved my hand or not. Might be easier to tell the people to stand in one place.

patsu

17-Jun-2010, 05:02

So, 1mm at 3 feet or 10 feet? Accuracy would be different at either range. Not that it really matters. I'm sure it's precise enough. Those kinds of numbers always make me skeptical. I'm used to less than honest measurements from the audio world.

I believe they said within a few millimeters. I don't think the raw accuracy will be a problem. People will be able to tell when the game is launched.

EDIT:
Found the original quote: http://gdc.gamespot.com/story/6253435/sony-reveals-what-makes-playstation-move-tick
The Z-axis is less accurate:

Delving into a bit of tech talk, the designer said the camera has a field of about 75 degrees, with XY tracking down to millimeters and Z-axis tracking to a few centimeters.

But if I punch and my head moves forward or side to side, then what? Are they going to estimate how far forward my head moved, or have some tolerance and if you go beyond that, wipe the punch data? Seems like they'd be doing a lot to check if I moved my hand or not. Might be easier to tell the people to stand in one place.

Yes it would be easier as I mentioned too. But it may not be a requirement (depends on apps and techniques again). You can play WiiSports Resort while standing around casually or moving.

bkilian

17-Jun-2010, 05:46

Well I guess they could make a "mask" out of the empty couch but the sad part (actually a good part...) is that couch are not hard material you sink in them to various extends...:???:

Ms made a good job at making us blind on the issue but crap... the product is almost already dead for me now... I'm in disbelief right now.I wouldn't believe everything you read on the internet :)

May be for a dancing game it's OK, but for arcade racing games standing still for some minutes may prove difficult, it get even worse if you consider doing multiple race :(The arcade style driving game they demoed uses hip movements to enable drift, and whole body movements to do tricks. You're not "standing still", but you couldn't really play seated either.

I know I'm late to the discussion, but I'm going to say not bogus...for now. If you watch the "Your Shape" Fitness videos, you'll notice that her outline can get blurry, and from time to time her arms 'melt into her body' so to speak, when she drops them to her sides (If I'm remembering correctly).

It looked like they were pulling information directly from the camera and 'rendering' that image, but it was obvious that it had some issues separating her body.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xd3QY0tSfck

You can see it pretty clearly there.It looks to me that Ubisoft is taking the depth map and smoothing it, so I wouldn't put too much truck in their data. Also, skeleton detection doesn't rely on you holding your arms away from your body.

Silent_Buddha

17-Jun-2010, 07:19

If you read the calibration process for the fight game, it sounds like they are calibrating relative to Eye. And they tell the person not to move around after calibration, so I'm assuming it messes up the reference point to the camera.

From this it sounds like it's doing its best to get a position for the player with which to reference motions of the wand.

Thus if you move your body, it is no longer where the game thinks it is, and thus all movements calculated with regards to your body will be off.

So wand positioning is always absolute, but can be rendered meaningless if you move around as it has no way to constantly update where the player's body is in relation to the wand.

So in effect, for games that calculate wand position in relation to a players body, you cannot move much or your actions won't be acurately reflected.. That's a bit of a downer.

A 2D camera can adjust for this slightly in 2 dimensions but movement forwards or backwards will be almost certain to ruin the experience.

It depends on the game you want to play. Some games use 2 Moves. Some use 1 Move and a nunchuck/DS3. Others only need 1 Move. The most optimal is probably 2 Moves and 2 nunchucks (for 2P).

Well, optimal for 2 players would be 1 eye, 4 wands, and 2 nunchucks. Although you can get by with a lesser experience with 1 eye, 2 wands and 2 standard controllers.

I wouldn't believe everything you read on the internet :)

The arcade style driving game they demoed uses hip movements to enable drift, and whole body movements to do tricks. You're not "standing still", but you couldn't really play seated either.

I thought Joyride was using upper torso movement (leaning from side to side) to enable drift and other turn enhancers. Couch play should be fine with the game.

If I remember correctly, some people got to try Burnout playing from a seated position.

Regards,
SB

Scott_Arm

17-Jun-2010, 07:29

(((interference)))

17-Jun-2010, 08:32

I agree with Joker, Kinect is more likely to emulate the Wii's success than Move, I can see Kinect being on Good Morning America and various other chat shows, while the Move is sort of a 'me too' system and casual's dont really care about tech specs and increased precision.

Kinect represents a paradigm shift, there's little doubt that the next generation of motion control systems from all 3 will include depth sensing optics.

However, I also don't think that we will see many Kinect titles to appeal to core gamers, at least not soon, in the future perhaps we'll get some avant garde Kinect titles like Heavy Rain or something.

But Kinect won't be offering a viable alternative to the controller for core gamers, unlike Sony's Move which already seems to work just fine in SOCOM, KZ3 etc.

So for core gamers, Kinect will most likely offer two things: UI and Live enhancements (like voice commands, video chat etc.) or core games with Kinect enhancements, like Fable 3 and Forza 4.

Now, this is actually a very good proposition as Kinect can bring new things to the table and even improve the controller based scheme of these titles. For example, manipulating objects in the game world, pointing to give tactical orders, mo cap for machinima, Kinect equivalents of QTEs or just to add more or streamline controls where there aren't enough buttons (eg. instead of pressing a button to cycle through different pieces of equipment/abilities you can just say it's name - very useful in for stuff like magic in games like Oblvion or Fable).

While the Kinect enabled racing gameplay shown off in Forza might only appeal to casuals, the virtual garage feature where you can walk around your car was pretty impressive and will be welcomed by Forza fans, similarily if a Halo title let you place objects using Kinect in Forge it would bring something new to the existing controller scheme. (BTW can Kinect detect you opening and closing your hands? like a grab gesture?)

The BIG problem with this - and one i've been highlighting for a long time - is unlike Move, adding Kinect support incurs a substantial performance cost, 10 to 15% of total system resources (not just CPU time), this is especially significant as the 360 is nearing the end of its lifecycle and developers need every last bit of power.

This kind of performance hit, will definitely affect Kinect integration into traditional games (Halo Reach seems to have been one of the first victims) and is a consequence of MS severely paring back the spec on the Kinect hardware (no onboard processor, MP to VGA res downgrade, 30hz instead of 60hz capture etc.).

And the thing still costs $150!

It's a pity MS is more interested in making a quick buck from selling cameras rather than trying to get the tech into as many hands as possible and reap the benefits in the longer term.

Kinect may well be a success and broaden the 360 userbase, but I can't help but think MS's decision to kill the onboard processing was a lost opportunity to entice core gamers as well.

Squilliam

17-Jun-2010, 08:45

Why does Kinect have to be a core game controller again? If we take Move for instance, people already have a pretty viable alternative to the Move controller with the DS3. So why do they need to duplicate functionality when they can release an interface which excels at doing things which the controller cannot or compliment and add to the controller when that is being used?

In regards to the price, im not sure $149 (whether true or not) can be considered an accurate estimate/leak given the time period between the eventual release and todays date. We don't get accurate information on leaked console price cuts at the earliest until usually the weeks or at most a month out so why would anyone take these leaks at face value? The release date is October, at most stores would need 8 weeks notice at the high level of the price of the unit which is still months away from todays date.

Shifty Geezer

17-Jun-2010, 09:22

Did I see that right that you can buy Move without the camera?Some of us already ahve the camera.
Did I see someone earlier say you can use the DS3 instead of the nunchuck? Ok, then of the same token, can't you use a 360 controller in tandem with Kinect?Who said you couldn't?

liolio

17-Jun-2010, 09:57

Hand on Kinect UI:
http://uk.xbox360.ign.com/articles/109/1099467p1.html

chris1515

17-Jun-2010, 10:05

Kinect works sitting down. False alarm.

"There has been some confusion about this, but Microsoft assured us that you can sit down while using Kinect. The company wants you to be able to relax and enjoy using your Xbox 360, so it says you definitely won't have to stand while watching a movie."

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/109/1099467p1.html

On IGN US has updated the article:

According to Microsoft, you can play some Kinect games sitting down. It "varies" by experience. However, several developers giving us demos have said the exact opposite. Sometimes the contradiction comes from the same person--one day telling us you have to be standing and then the next saying everything can be done while sitting.

Which is true? We don't know for certain, as we have not had the opportunity to play anything seated. Suffice to say, if you have to stand for every game (or for menu navigation), that's a big problem. This remains a concern until we ourselves can test out Kinect from our rear.

The solution is easy let the press try Kinect while sitting. I smell something fishy.

Silent_Buddha

17-Jun-2010, 10:54

Hand on Kinect UI:
http://uk.xbox360.ign.com/articles/109/1099467p1.html

If that works with indie games I hope someone makes a game called, "Peter Piper's Purple Picked Pickles." Or something like that. I'd love to see someone voice activate THAT game. :D

Regards,
SB

Billy Idol

17-Jun-2010, 11:14

If that works with indie games I hope someone makes a game called, "Peter Piper's Purple Picked Pickles." Or something like that. I'd love to see someone voice activate THAT game. :D

Regards,
SB

:lol::lol:

Squilliam

17-Jun-2010, 12:57

liolio

17-Jun-2010, 13:18

I wouldn't believe everything you read on the internet :)

I don't trust strangers ... :lol:

But I still agree with Chris1515 Ms recent track record push me to be suspicious. I'm still iffy ok for the games that were designed in a way that you have to stand still. But the UI it would be so easy to demonstrate it on a couch and that would utterly kill this "rumour".

obonicus

17-Jun-2010, 13:26

They're probably convinced they can iron out these issues by release.

Scott_Arm

17-Jun-2010, 14:33

On IGN US has updated the article:

The solution is easy let the press try Kinect while sitting. I smell something fishy.

Annoying. Hopefully this is properly addressed at some point before it goes on sale.

chris1515

17-Jun-2010, 14:54

Annoying. Hopefully this is properly addressed at some point before it goes on sale.

If they have problem to track the skeleton when people sitting on a couch, they can use the RGB camera to recognize the hand movement.

Shifty Geezer

17-Jun-2010, 15:13

The RGB camera can have similar differentiation difficulties due to limited contrast. EyeToy didn't work with pale skin against a pale blue wall. There are things people can do, like fill the room with light, but these things need to be seemless. Eurogramers review of Your In The Movies had them struggling to the the lighting to work. IR depth perception should have been the solution to these problems, and I hope it still is, but then I was expecting time-off-flight cameras. I can imagine cameras monitoring a projected pattern having a lot more issues.

At this point though, we really need someone to actually sit down and try it. In fact we've had this with the earliy Natal racing, no? I don't remember anyone complaining when they sat down to play the retrofitted Forza or whatever it was, steering with their hands.

Scott_Arm

17-Jun-2010, 15:23

If they'd just force the users to inject themselves with radioactive materials to make them glow, this wouldn't be a problem.

AzBat

17-Jun-2010, 15:31

If they'd just force the users to inject themselves with radioactive materials to make them glow, this wouldn't be a problem.

LOL, yeah. I guess we'll just have to settle for the IR emitter that lights the room up. At most everyone will need to wear reflective tape. :)

Tommy McClain

draconian

17-Jun-2010, 15:47

$150? I find it hard to believe MS will release it at that price. If it's $150, than it has to come packing with tons of games (at least 2). I could also envision a scenario where they do release it at $150 then make quick price drops in the later months. This way MS could make a quick buck on the early adopters. In fact, this could be the ideal scenario.

But let's assume for the case that $150 is out of necessity because of the actual build costs. Has anyone done an estimate?

1 rgb CMOS sensor @ 640 x 480 is $10?
1 IR light sensor ~ $10
1 Depth CMOS sensor ~ $10
1 multi-array microphone ~ $2?
1 electric motor ~ $1
1 power source ~ $3

total cost = under $40.

Scott_Arm

17-Jun-2010, 15:54

liolio

17-Jun-2010, 15:58

Graham

17-Jun-2010, 16:24

....

That really doesn't matter too much. The R&D cost for kinect would likely have been enormous, and will likely be the more significant cost for a while.
Not forgetting the marketing budget...

Alkohallick

17-Jun-2010, 16:36

Scott_Arm

17-Jun-2010, 16:43

If their going for damage control this part of the statement still has me worried. Of coarse i don't expect to have to stand to watch a movie, but what about playing games?

Well, I'm sure some games would require you to stand, regardless of whether it was a technical limitation or not. If you have to use your hips, feet or torso movement, it's pretty much guaranteed you'll have to stand. If they're tracking just your arms and head, and it's something that you could in theory play sitting down, hopefully you'll be able to sit while you do it, and that's where the mixed messages are confusing. That would be the same situation for the UI control, where you seem to only require hand movement.

dragonelite

17-Jun-2010, 16:44

Cant they just do menu navigation with the RGB camera. At least from what i saw in a video in this thread someone made a move kind of software for webcam that seemed good enough in my eyes for menu navigation.

chris1515

17-Jun-2010, 16:47

http://kotaku.com/5565777/xbox-kinect-does-not-play-well-with-couch-potatoes

Kotaku confirm what IGN said before with more details, they ask to the forza team to play while sitting.

Scott_Arm

17-Jun-2010, 17:01

I really don't understand why they would bother with the UI navigation if you had to stand to use it. Sure, the voice commands would still be good. It's nice to be able to pause quickly as you're running to answer the phone. But if you need a controller to navigate the menus while sitting anyway, then what's the point? The remote is already in your hands or sitting very close.

As for games, it would definitely limit augmentation of traditional games. Essentially, it becomes a standing full-body platform only. I'm not sure that's a deal breaker, because it's the main reason you'd be buying the thing anyway, but it's definitely a strike against the peripheral if true. A good boxing game will still sell me on this thing.

One thing I'm not sure about in the Kotaku speculation is why it might have problems. Body occlusion shouldn't be the issue here, and if it is, Kinect has much bigger problems than detecting people sitting down.

obonicus

17-Jun-2010, 17:01

I always hate cost breakdowns because they completely ignore R&D costs, especially on the software side. To be honest, I don't think $150 is that bad. You pay once, and that's it. Compare to Wii and Move, it's about $50-75 worth of controllers for each player. Guess it depends how many people you intend to use it with.

It's expensive for a lot of people (or rather, it's a big number on the price tag), but you're right that it isn't that outrageous. I just paid more than that for a fight stick controller and I suck at fighting games. As much as I don't like the games Kinect has shown, I realize I'll probably get it sometime after launch.

obonicus

17-Jun-2010, 17:09

One thing I'm not sure about in the Kotaku speculation is why it might have problems. Body occlusion shouldn't be the issue here, and if it is, Kinect has much bigger problems than detecting people sitting down.

It makes me think of Your Shape -- it kinda looked like they were dealing with the point cloud directly. I'd sort of like to see someone (a journalist, naturally) 'test' to see how well the blob thing on screen can differentiate limbs.

Alkohallick

17-Jun-2010, 17:11

RobertR1

17-Jun-2010, 17:57

I wanna how know many Christmas wishes have been changed over to "wishing Kinect's failure" at this point.

If I have to stand up for sports/activity games, I'll manage. I'll also wait until Nov for the final product. Plenty of time to sharpen the pitchfork ends.

RobertR1

17-Jun-2010, 17:58

Have any of the games shown so far for Kinect have the ability for 4 players?

I ask because I keep seeing people do price comparisons and if 2 people is the limit for Kinect then the 150 price tag matches/beats sony's move offering (for 2 people+eye toy)

One of the dance game showed 3 people dancing. Not sure what the limit is though. Wouldn't be surprised to know that MS might only recommend 2. Still new tech that needs to mature.

Scott_Arm

17-Jun-2010, 18:02

It makes me think of Your Shape -- it kinda looked like they were dealing with the point cloud directly. I'd sort of like to see someone (a journalist, naturally) 'test' to see how well the blob thing on screen can differentiate limbs.

Has there been any hands on with EA Active 2.0 on Kinect? That would be a good place to check since the punching bag required fast movement and would certainly have overlapping body parts. The Your Shape kicking-and-punching- blocks demo had limbs crossing over other parts of the body as well.

thatdude90210

17-Jun-2010, 18:07

I wanna how know many Christmas wishes have been changed over to "wishing Kinect's failure" at this point.

The product itself hits the casual/family bulls eye. But the price point is going to be an issue. If it's $150 on top of something you already owned, no problem. But $150 on top of something you still have to buy, big problem. If MS can get a Kinect +360 bundle out at $250-299, they have a hit.

obonicus

17-Jun-2010, 18:16

I suspect we'll be looking at a $399 bundle to go against Sony's $399 Move bundle.

RobertR1

17-Jun-2010, 18:17

The product itself hits the casual/family bulls eye. But the price point is going to be an issue. If it's $150 on top of something you already owned, no problem. But $150 on top of something you still have to buy, big problem. If MS can get a Kinect +360 bundle out at $250-299, they have a hit.

Agreed. Bundle pricing will be key. Anything over $299 is a no go.

Squilliam

17-Jun-2010, 18:54

I always hate cost breakdowns because they completely ignore R&D costs, especially on the software side. To be honest, I don't think $150 is that bad. You pay once, and that's it. Compare to Wii and Move, it's about $50-75 worth of controllers for each player. Guess it depends how many people you intend to use it with.

Microsoft has more avenues than the cost of the unit to recoup those costs like for instance Live content, subscriptions and games. Also they are likely amortising the cost of the Natal project over several different applications as last time I heard they had about 12 Natal related projects ongoing in their Israel research centre.

Im not saying that it won't be $150, im just saying that it doesn't have to cost more than $100, I.E $40 cost + 5 misc/shipping + 30 MS margins + 25 store margins = $100 or however you want to split it even if you factor in large R+D expenditure.

rabidrabbit

17-Jun-2010, 18:56

One of the dance game showed 3 people dancing. Not sure what the limit is though. Wouldn't be surprised to know that MS might only recommend 2. Still new tech that needs to mature.
If you mean the MS conference showing, the two dancers might have been just extra, you know, there for the show, to make it look better. They were dancing a little behind the main dancer, which already sort of proves something.
It would have looked a bit pathetic if that (nerd) guy had been on the stage alone :)

dragonelite

17-Jun-2010, 19:29

Has this been posted yet Sonic Riders with kinect
http://www.destructoid.com/e3-10-i-m-worried-about-sonic-free-riders-guys-176672.phtml

Cyan

17-Jun-2010, 20:19

Might want to wait for official confirmation and response.

MS knows what will happen if they rush a product out the door. I don't think they will repeat the same mistake.

[Aiight, I deleted MfA's response]
This is the first I've heard of you being a moderator. I didn't know until now.

That would likely mean them selling the PS3 at a loss again. I think there's very little chance of them doing that. My personal opinion is that Sony view this more as a transitional product. Getting everyone used to motion controls on the Playstation, rather than expecting blockbuster sales like MS seem to expect with Kinect, atleast until they can drop the PS3's price anyway.
Actually, I am sorry I didn't phrase myself well. I wanted to mention a Move bundle with all the controllers included, plus the camera, for the full experience and people who already own a PS3 or casuals who want to play games using Move but they don't know exactly what components they need.

Next gen should be interesting from them. SCEI have been filing motion control patents since the 90's
Nintendo got there first and got ahead of both Microsoft and Sony in the innovation department. Sony had Eyetoy and those patents from the 90's, as you pointed out. Building upon that and the PS2 success they had a winner in their hands.

The thing is that Nintendo realized the true potential of the motion controls idea earlier, and we know the rest and how unexpected it was. But certainly the next generation will be very interesting, perhaps Wii will keep the throne.

That whole set of games has three difficulty levels for everything. The Easy mode has loads of assists making the game much easier, but the Hard level is pretty much a hardcore simulation. There was an interview on this.

You can only mitigate so much though. But actually some games are easy to calibrate this for. You just put the actual hit box as much forward as the amount of lag you need to compensate for. It's like driving a car from behind the car versus driving from the bumper view - your mind will have to adjust, but it's fairly easily done. And the actual lag is then only going to be an issue for things like tilting your racket or giving effects.

That said, the precision on the Move is going to make stuff like table tennis far superior to their competitors IF you're looking to get as realistic a replication. Adding 3D to that is going to bring that to a pretty extreme level of simulation I think. Same for golf - they showed it as a full sim. Not everyone will like that, and it is not necessary for most casuals, but it will add a level of depth.

Also, if Kinect has significant enough lag, that's going to make playing using Kinect online even harder. There's only so much lag you can compensate for.

It doesn't change my opinion on it though that Kinect will allow for some really awesome new game experiences, and same for the Move. I'm just thinking that right now, the Move controller has the potential to actually replace and enhance almost all gameplay experiences, including very core stuff, and that's something that has the potential to reach a lot of current gamers. Kinect on the other hand opens up possibilities for some completely new stuff that brings in new players. You don't need that many games to make that a success, but I don't feel that Microsoft quite has them yet (certainly with the most impressive titles now coming from third party again, though Microsoft won't care).

I'm glad all these systems exist anyway! Look forward to what they'll bring to the table.
I am happy with their existence too. Apart from the new ideas and improvements over the Wiimote, they can also extend the life cycle of these consoles, which were very powerful when they were launched already.

For traditional gamers seeing games like Rage, or Doom 4 make me also believe that this generation can last 5 more years.

Move can be very compatible with traditional games, or basically any PS3 game that's going to come out from now on. Kinect has -and needs- full support of MS because they have to.

Some new videos of Sonic Free Riders played by youngsters, very cool stuff:

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2 Player mode:

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A similar game played with Eyetoy:

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And probably my favourite because it shows how natural it is to make movements without a controller in certain situations, like when he is flying:

nXK0-zzetQA

A well known weakness becomes a strenght in those situations, and it's certainly better than having to memorize the button layout to do acrobatics or similar moves.

When I have to do acrobatics with a shoulder button -for instance in kart games- while in the air I usually forget about it and don't even try, or sometimes you just forget to make that move, or the correct button.

Without a controller it seems to feel like you can fool around naturally. :smile:

Cyan

17-Jun-2010, 20:40

Has this been posted yet Sonic Riders with kinect
http://www.destructoid.com/e3-10-i-m-worried-about-sonic-free-riders-guys-176672.phtml
I don't understand the complains because it's not like they have to do that all the time, just at intervals.

Now that I think of it, with the matter on hand, I think it would be a great idea if developers let people customize the controls.

Mainly for those who want to play sitting, or who'd rather prefer to play only using the hands.

draconian

17-Jun-2010, 21:09

Look at all these previous eyetoy games that failed with the casual...

This is nothing like Dance Central. It's not even really a dancing game.
EyeToy: Groove (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EyeToy:_Groove)
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EyeToy: Play (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EyeToy:_Play)
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EyeToy: Kinetic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EyeToy:_Kinetic)
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Nesh

17-Jun-2010, 21:20

It is very sad for Sony for being so close a generation earlier, but completely abandoning the evolution of the idea later on, which left comp0etiton take over.

I am pretty sure Phil Harrison saw the potential but nobody heard him which left a bitter taste. I remember reading that he wanted to develop on the casual market potential with similar titles and experiences.

wco81

17-Jun-2010, 21:35

True that Kinectic only works when you're standing?

So MS is offering a stand-up experience while Apple talks about sitting back on the couch with the iPad?

dlm

17-Jun-2010, 21:36

The Wildfire video is pretty impressive.

Of course, there are some limitations that aren't as clear from the video (aside from the busier it got, the more false misses it started to register).

The biggest problem apparently was lighting. The author of that video said that he basically needed to setup up light sources a couple feet in front of him on either side and mess around with the background to ensure adequate contrast for the camera to work.

This app also obviously isn't generating a skeleton (would it even be feasible processing-wise to do that on the PS2?). It appears to just look for extremities and then register a "hit" anytime an in-game object gets obscured.

You have to wonder though looking at something like Kinect that (in theory) solves those problems why Sony just sent EyeToy out to die. The potential is clearly there.

Arwin

17-Jun-2010, 21:40

Confirmation about the dualshock can still sub for the navigation controller. This is rather good news:

1. I have played Flower and Motorstorm 2 single handed - particularly the sixaxis is very suitable for this kind of application, as it is very light. I think it's particularly good for people with big hands.
2. you'll be able to find out if navigation controller is something that will be used a lot and is better than replacing that functionality with a second move controller or sticking to dualshock controls, for say, games like Killzone 3. Might save you some cash.
3. in case there is actually a two player game that supports both the navi and the move, then even if I did buy a navi, I could give it to a friend while I play using the sixaxis, or we could both play using the two sixaxes (and one DS3) I already have.
4. if you already have a PS Eye (I do), then you can start with buying just a single move. As some existing games will have the functionality built in, you don't even need to buy a game. So I can get in on the action for under the price of a new game.

However, right now I still feel that two Move controllers should be able to do almost any job better than one move and one navi. Why? Because I think if you can move your reticule in the x plane with a move controller, you should be able to move your character in the z plane with another one just as easily.

Anyway, I'll very likely get two Move controllers at launch to begin with, and take it from there.

http://www.destructoid.com/psa-dualshock-can-sub-for-ps-move-navigation-controller-176815.phtml

Arwin

17-Jun-2010, 21:49

You have to wonder though looking at something like Kinect that (in theory) solves those problems why Sony just sent EyeToy out to die. The potential is clearly there.

The potential was there, but not just that - it is often forgotten that EyeToy was pretty successful in Europe, where it launched and was marketed properly. SCEA and SCEJ just completely failed to pick up on it, just like they ignored great casual titles like Buzz and Singstar. This was indeed one of the biggest frustrations for Phil Harrison, which he kept close to his chest right up til he left the company.

That said, the EyeToy technology was too limiting to ever become as big a success as something like the Wii, and if you have enough experience with it, you recognise the important progress made in Kinect right away. It is not for nothing that Richard Marx professed his love for the technology. But it is also not for nothing that they chose not to go that route.

Eventually though, at least in theory the Kinect tech should win out once it is fast enough and detailed enough. Eventually that too will get near lagless with sub-mm accuracy.

Nesh

17-Jun-2010, 22:28

The potential was there, but not just that - it is often forgotten that EyeToy was pretty successful in Europe, where it launched and was marketed properly. SCEA and SCEJ just completely failed to pick up on it, just like they ignored great casual titles like Buzz and Singstar. This was indeed one of the biggest frustrations for Phil Harrison, which he kept close to his chest right up til he left the company.

That said, the EyeToy technology was too limiting to ever become as big a success as something like the Wii, and if you have enough experience with it, you recognise the important progress made in Kinect right away. It is not for nothing that Richard Marx professed his love for the technology. But it is also not for nothing that they chose not to go that route.

Eventually though, at least in theory the Kinect tech should win out once it is fast enough and detailed enough. Eventually that too will get near lagless with sub-mm accuracy.The EyeToy technology may have been limiting but the crazy thing is that Sony has been working on various Motion Control schemes since the PS2 days.

I barely remember them even demonstrating a Move/Wii alike controller on the PS2 around in 2000.

This involved sword fighting and using your hand gestures to fly in a 3D plane,

Then they had augmented reality demonstrations at E3 for the PS3 before its release!

I cant believe they were so forward compared to anyone else and ended being "last".

Nintendo came first with the Wii, and MS came with anmproved version of the EyeToy which can do lots of the things that Wii can and their initial concepts could do.

Gon0S

17-Jun-2010, 22:35

Just a big question about Kinect.

All presentation of Kinect games are showing large room with a really fair amount of space between device and player.

I just wish to remind to american people that the rest of the world do not have so large car as your Wheelies and mini trucks, do not even think about the size of the TV room.

At best setting, I can have 2 meters beetween my TV and the couch. Do you really imagine I can plan Kinect with less than 1,5M between the player and natal ? I already own PS3+ PS Eye and I never manage to get a full body on screen. Is Natal getting a fish eye for smaller space cabinet ?
Even going further xwith this : how much space is needed to get 2 or 3 or even 4 person waving their arms wide ?? I am really wondering how multiplayer will be possible in european rooms. Maybe only for our king in his palace (I am living in france) ?

Arwin

17-Jun-2010, 22:50

I'm in the same position as you. Would probably have to stand on the couch to even stand a chance. The most optimistic figure I've heard is that Kinect can work with 1,5-3.0 meters range of your TV - if true, that might still do the trick, but I'm also 1.92m which makes this even worse.

I have one lucky bonus, which is that I have a TV on a moveable arm, that I can extend and tilt almost 90 degrees. As the living room is two rooms connected with a fairly big opening in between, that extends my range to up to 4-5 meters, which should do the trick, at least for one or two players. But if this would be the way I have to play, it's not going to be used a lot.

My stance is: wait and see. The launch date will come, reviews will come in, people will give their impressions, and we'll know all the facts by then. I don't pre-order often, but in this case I'd actually recommend against it.

(((interference)))

18-Jun-2010, 00:04

Some good Kinect write ups from the tech blogs:

http://i.engadget.com/2010/06/17/kinect-guide-a-preview-and-explanation-of-microsofts-new-full/
It's confirmed that the motorised base can pan as well as tilt to track users.

Gizmodo was very impressed by what kinect brings to the table:
http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2010/06/xbox-360-kinect-puts-play-back-in-gameplay/#more-402379

“What do you think?” asks Wil Mozell, a Microsoft GM who oversees many of the companies designing Kinect’s important launch titles.

“It’s great,” I say. “But what about the lag? Will you ever fully eliminate it?”

“We can get rid of a lot of it. Keep in mind, these games are 80-to-85% there. There’s still lots of optimisation left to do.”

“But what about the hardcore games? The FPSs, the gameplay that requires 100% accuracy?” I push.

“Kinect isn’t going to replace the controllers that have worked for those types of games for the last decade – that’s not what we’re trying to do. Kinect will work alongside those controllers for hardcore games. For throwing a grenade, for vocal commands, for…”

“For head tracking??”

“Yes, head tracking! Exactly.” He gets a big smile. He wants to say more. Bound by Microsoft confidentiality agreements, he can’t.

Ars Technica mentions that MS is being coy on whether the Forza title is a new game or some sort of Kinect enabled Forza 3, but it is running on a new engine at 60fps and with more cars on the track.
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2010/06/driving-forza-with-the-kinect-looks-silly-feels-great.ars?old=mobile

I asked if the added Kinect support had much overhead. Is it chewing through processing cycles? "We have our own engine," I was told, as if that explained everything

So what, did Turn 10 just suck at optimising Forza 3? Would seem so if they can retain the same graphical fidelity + more AI while taking the 10-15% Kinect overhead hit.

Has grandmaster had a look at this Forza demo to see whether any cutbacks have been made over F3?

Also
Playing with your hands out, pretending to hold a steering wheel may look goofy, but I'll be damned if it doesn't work well and feel good. I was able to make subtle corrections to my steering, and I performed very well on my run. Of course, there seemed to be an assist or two turned on, and a representative said that they were still looking at multiple ways to handle acceleration—it was handled for you automatically in this particular demo—so there are still some questions to be answered.

PS: for the record it is very hard to do multi quote posts on an iPhone!

Silent_Buddha

18-Jun-2010, 00:15

So what, did Turn 10 just suck at optimising Forza 3? Would seem so if they can retain the same graphical fidelity + more AI while taking the 10-15% Kinect overhead hit.

Either that or the 10-15% rumor is with every single feature and control of Natal active, and it's significantly less if you only utilise part of it. I don't think we'll ever know for sure though as I'm sure companies will be under NDA if they have that info.

Also, I'm watching the EA presentation right now, and from rewatching the EA Active 2.0 demonstration, it looks like Kinect has far less lag than the EA designed motion detectors for PS3 and Wii. The lag for the PS3 and Wii with the EA arm and leg bands is just really REALLY bad.

Regards,
SB

Silent_Buddha

18-Jun-2010, 00:51

Here's something else I don't get.

Forza team has shown that Kinect is perfectly fine tracking only part of a persons body.

http://e3.gamespot.com/video/6265584/?tag=top_stories%3Btitle%3B8

You can see there that often only the head and shoulders and hands become visible to Kinect when he moves right up to the screen while kneeling down.

I don't see why sitting would be such a problem if you don't need to track the lower body while sitting. It doesn't matter if Natal loses track of those parts because they wouldn't be used for...say movie watching.

I'm sure MS would love to get the calibration such that the legs could also be tracked accurately while sitting, but when sitting I just don't see that as entirely necessary for a couch experience.

Regards,
SB

dragonelite

18-Jun-2010, 00:58

jonabbey

18-Jun-2010, 01:15

The EyeToy technology may have been limiting but the crazy thing is that Sony has been working on various Motion Control schemes since the PS2 days.

I barely remember them even demonstrating a Move/Wii alike controller on the PS2 around in 2000.

I remember seeing a very primitive, 2D version of an EyeToy-like experience on the Amiga using NewTek's DigiView and a genlock. :smile:

(((interference)))

18-Jun-2010, 02:03

Either that or the 10-15% rumor is with every single feature and control of Natal active, and it's significantly less if you only utilise part of it. I don't think we'll ever know for sure though as I'm sure companies will be under NDA if they have that info.

Also, I'm watching the EA presentation right now, and from rewatching the EA Active 2.0 demonstration, it looks like Kinect has far less lag than the EA designed motion detectors for PS3 and Wii. The lag for the PS3 and Wii with the EA arm and leg bands is just really REALLY bad.

Regards,
SB

Perhaps, but I don't think it scales down linearly, there's probably a significant minimum overhead to use Kinect, it definitely seems so, as Kinect support of any kind can't be patched into existing titles unlike Move, the fact that Forza Kinect required an engine rewrite (and they already built a new engine for Forza 3) would seem to confirm this.

With Forza, upper body motion tracking is still going to incur a significant cost, I would say 10% rather than 5%. We really need Digital Foundry to do a tech analysis of Forza Kinect, I reckon the physics wouldve taken a hit, no more 360hz refresh.

I'm not sure if this is possible, but could they configure the engine in such a way that when you're playing Forza with Kinect (and so with assists enabled) the physis and graphics are pared back, but if you play full simulation with a wheel or controller, Kinect functionality is disabled and you get the full experience?

Or do they have to build the Kinect processing cost into the entire engine so that even when Kinect is not being used, there's still 10% or whatever reserved?

AzBat

18-Jun-2010, 03:46

Kinect pricing to come no later than Gamescom, August 18-22?

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/microsoft-to-revel-kinect-pricing-at-gamescom

Tommy McClain

patsu

18-Jun-2010, 05:14

This is the first I've heard of you being a moderator. I didn't know until now.

Ha ha, I meant I deleted his comment from my post. ^_^

Look at all these previous eyetoy games that failed with the casual...

They didn't fail with casual. Those EyeToy games were successful. I know casual EU and Asian non-gamer friends who bought a PS2 because of it. I don't know if SCEA focused on EyeToy at all.

At that time, the "mainstream" dancing game was Dance Dance Revolution. It's cheaper (to run). I believe Dr. Marks mentioned that body tracking on PS2 took 30% of the CPU.

patsu

18-Jun-2010, 05:35

A lot of catch up to do, but fortunately, I have seen the hundreds of beautiful women in the Ninty conference.

Now for Vitality Sensor:
http://wii.ign.com/articles/110/1100039p1.html

IGN: To start us off, what happened to the Vitality Sensor?

Miyamoto: It's actually progressing quite well. We could have shown it here at E3 if we wanted to, but the environment here isn't really suited to that game. E3 is pretty exciting, and that's a device that's all about relaxation. So it just wasn't the best time or place to show that game. But it is ready, so we'll probably find another place that's more suitable to announce it. But I'm not directly involved in that project.

IGN: What are your impressions of the PlayStation Move and Microsoft's Kinect?

Miyamoto: I haven't played all of the demos myself and haven't had much opportunity to be out on the show floor, but I think it's a good idea in general that the party game mentality and the idea of playing games in your living room is beginning to broaden even further. In general, I think that's a good thing for video games.

IGN: You mentioned the 3D camera. I think it's great that you can take photos in 3D, but obviously that feature's locked down to the system. Has there been any thought for creating a standard to get those 3D pictures into other mediums so people can share those pictures?

Miyamoto: Well, maybe somebody will start making 3D picture frames.

3DS better have homebrew to export the 3D images out.

tha_con

18-Jun-2010, 06:30

Scott_Arm

18-Jun-2010, 06:36

I'm pretty sure the Forza demo was staged.

http://i48.tinypic.com/epk4fa.jpg

Not only does the cursor move before his hand, but it doesn't match his motions at all.

If it's staged then this guy practiced for a really really really long time

http://e3.gamespot.com/video/6265584/

tha_con

18-Jun-2010, 06:48

If it's staged then this guy practiced for a really really really long time

http://e3.gamespot.com/video/6265584/

The first part of the video is extremely sketchy to me, either he's not controlling it, or it has a lot of bugs. There are areas where the hands on screen move independently from his own, they move at the same time, or they have distinct lag. Very strange indeed.

The second portion, however, has no bugs at all. However, it's extremely likely that all that is going on there is eye tracking and hand tracking.

Honestly though, at this point most of this is guess work, and we'll never know what these products have to offer until we get our hands on them for ourselves. Time will tell!

RobertR1

18-Jun-2010, 07:26

A successor to RezHD being played using Kinect. Yeah, I'm in.

http://gamersyde.com/news_e3_child_of_eden_gameplay-9480_en.html

tha_con

18-Jun-2010, 07:30

A successor to RezHD being played using Kinect. Yeah, I'm in.

http://gamersyde.com/news_e3_child_of_eden_gameplay-9480_en.html

I'm super interested in Child of Eden. Going to wait to see what the other version(s) look like before I commit to one, given the hardware requirements.

Lucid_Dreamer

18-Jun-2010, 08:09

Shifty Geezer

18-Jun-2010, 08:40

I don't see why sitting would be such a problem if you don't need to track the lower body while sitting. It doesn't matter if Natal loses track of those parts because they wouldn't be used for...say movie watching.

I'm sure MS would love to get the calibration such that the legs could also be tracked accurately while sitting, but when sitting I just don't see that as entirely necessary for a couch experience.Yes, in principle. So why could it not be working? I'm guessing because not everyone sits bum-in-seat, feet-on-floor. Some will be reclined feet in front. Some legs to the side. Some will bring their knees in to their body, especially at a scary moment, even hugging a cushion. It could be confused data like that which Kinect can't handle which makes it unstable in home use, as opposed to labratory use. For games, I'd expect a player to be sat forwards and easier to track especially combining Kinect with the controller in shooters etc.

Silent_Buddha

18-Jun-2010, 08:44

I'm pretty sure the Forza demo was staged.

http://i48.tinypic.com/epk4fa.jpg

Not only does the cursor move before his hand, but it doesn't match his motions at all.

Which isn't even remotely like the behind doors Forza demo that I linked to if you had bothered to look. There would be no way to memorize all that inadvertent swaying as well as body motions (mimicked in the demo) reacting to questions asked by people in the room.

Especially when it semi-glitches out when he turns completely around to look back at the questioner to answer one of the questions.

That was definitely NOT staged.

And in that room he gets down with his head within inches of Natal and it tracks his motions perfectly fine with basically only his head being visible to the system.

Likewise with him moving forwards and backwards, disproving without a doubt that you "have" to stand in a certain spot. Although I'm quite sure with MS still calibrating the system that currently best results are achieved when used from a certain area.

Regards,
SB

Silent_Buddha

18-Jun-2010, 08:53

Yes, in principle. So why could it not be working? I'm guessing because not everyone sits bum-in-seat, feet-on-floor. Some will be reclined feet in front. Some legs to the side. Some will bring their knees in to their body, especially at a scary moment, even hugging a cushion. It could be confused data like that which Kinect can't handle which makes it unstable in home use, as opposed to labratory use. For games, I'd expect a player to be sat forwards and easier to track especially combining Kinect with the controller in shooters etc.

Actually my guess is that certain fabric material may absorb and reflect the infrared light similar to the clothing worn by people. If this is the case, it could be a very difficult problem to solve. If the body is in motion then it would be much easier for the system to recognize that it's not a static part of the background, but legs and hips aren't going to move much when sitting. Your arms and torso though should move enough to give a good reference point. Maybe playing naked would solve the issue? :D

Notice how in Your Shape, the clothing/sweater is seen as just part of the body (although that could be artistic rather than technical limitation), but there's enough discrete control points that it can easily (relatively) deduce where all the control parts probably are with a good deal of accuracy. In the seated position it'll have much less known control points to work with to determine where the rest are.

But again, when seated, just how important will the legs, knees and hips be? If they can at least get arms, upper torso, and head tracked well that should be good enough for couch potato activities.

But you do have a point with sitting off-angle to the camera. The Forza behind doors demo had a glitch when the presenter turned to look at someone in the back of the room when they asked a question. If I were to guess, the tilting and panning abilities of Natal might have been introduced as much to deal with this problem as it was to keep people in the FOV.

It's too bad we can't see the point cloud images of a person seated to see what Natal is coming up with.

Regards,
SB

rabidrabbit

18-Jun-2010, 09:07

The first part of the video is extremely sketchy to me, either he's not controlling it, or it has a lot of bugs. There are areas where the hands on screen move independently from his own, they move at the same time, or they have distinct lag. Very strange indeed.

The second portion, however, has no bugs at all. However, it's extremely likely that all that is going on there is eye tracking and hand tracking.

Honestly though, at this point most of this is guess work, and we'll never know what these products have to offer until we get our hands on them for ourselves. Time will tell!
I really do think this demonstration (and the old Burnout w/ Natal) was done so that there is another person actually controlling the game with a wheel or pad somewhere where he can see the player who's using his body to control, but of course hidden from view (can be even in another room, if he has a camera view to the demonstration room).
Just try it for fun.
Ask some unsuspectful victim to play Burnout with your "new motion control" console, and when he starts to play, mimic his actions with a controller behind him (preferably a wheel, as it's easier to accurately mimic).
I did this, and managed to fool a couple of persons :D I was even surprised myself how well that worked and how the lag seemed very similar to the of Kinetcs, and how real the illusion of motion control for the fooled player was!

liolio

18-Jun-2010, 09:16

I really do think this demonstration (and the old Burnout w/ Natal) was done so that there is another person actually controlling the game with a wheel or pad somewhere where he can see the player who's using his body to control, but of course hidden from view (can be even in another room, if he has a camera view to the demonstration room).
Just try it for fun.
Ask some unsuspectful victim to play Burnout with your "new motion control" console, and when he starts to play, mimic his actions with a controller behind him (preferably a wheel, as it's easier to accurately mimic).
I did this, and managed to fool a couple of persons :D I was even surprised myself how well that worked and how the lag seemed very similar to the of Kinetcs, and how real the illusion of motion control for the fooled player was!
I guess we have lag all explained :lol:

Billy Idol

18-Jun-2010, 09:22

I also had the impression that the demonstration was faked....but I can understand that MS tried to minimize the risk of showing the demo, it seems to me that all of the shown stuff is in an early dev state...so why the heck risk a crash or something else...just buy better actors next time :lol::lol:

EDIT: if I remember correctly, MS had already some new stuff crashed episode/nightmare (was it new windows presentation with blue screen) - so they are warned!

Silent_Buddha

18-Jun-2010, 09:25

OK, I've only watched the EA and UBIsoft presentations in their entirety, but did any publisher other than Sony demo/show games using Move in their Conferences? Pretty much any publisher with a Kinect game were eager to demo/show off their Kinect titles, but I'm not seeing the same with Move titles.

Regards,
SB

goonergaz

18-Jun-2010, 13:18

I also had the impression that the demonstration was faked....

are we talking about the press conference? that was staged for sure I highlighted a couple of times when the wheel moved before hands and hands moved and the wheel stayed still...it's not hard to learn a few mins movement - it's just like learning a speach!

obonicus

18-Jun-2010, 13:27

Arwin

18-Jun-2010, 13:47

I don't think so, and Sony didn't really show Move working with any games except Sorcerer.

That's not the reason. The reason is that the EA conference for instance was before the Sony conference. Partly because of this, EA showed Tiger Woods using the Move at the Sony conference, and they even played on it by putting a cliffhanger in the Dead Space 2 presentation stating that you'd get to see what comes next at the Sony press conference.

Your second statement is therefore also incorrect (they showed Tiger Woods as well, for instance), but they did clearly consciously decide to show Move and some of its main games extensively to a lot of press pre-show because they knew their time in the conference was limited and it would show better with extensive hands-on anyway. (I think they were right, by the way)

obonicus

18-Jun-2010, 13:59

Right, I had forgotten about Tiger Woods. But the fact is that they didn't show a lot of the promised Move support during their presentation. For instance, what the hell is that Jak + Ratchet + Sly Move-only game, how does it work?

I don't doubt it works, by the way, they just didn't show it -- instead we had Dille blather on.

Graham

18-Jun-2010, 14:04

obonicus

18-Jun-2010, 14:17

Well, he is talking to the audience and moving about a lot. Plus you can't see his other hand.
For the most part I think it looks quite accurate and responsive.

The stuff shown in the presentation was probably pre-recorded, and with good reason. Miyamoto tried a live demo of Zelda and it made the game look bad.

Scott_Arm

18-Jun-2010, 14:29

Why is everyone obsessing over whether the live presentation was recorded or not, when we have video of someone obviously playing the thing, with it working very reliably?

Shifty Geezer

18-Jun-2010, 16:11

Why is everyone obsessing over whether the live presentation was recorded or not, when we have video of someone obviously playing the thing, with it working very reliably?You mean, "Why are some people obsessing..."

Scott_Arm

18-Jun-2010, 16:18

You mean, "Why are some people obsessing..."

Yes, you're right. I shouldn't have written it that way.

liolio

18-Jun-2010, 16:25

Some hand-on from Kotaku:
http://kotaku.com/5566991/kinect-adventures-is-surprisingly-fun
http://kotaku.com/5566968/joy-ride-may-highlight-a-major-kinect-problem (extreme naming in regard to the actual content/ opinion on the game).

tha_con

18-Jun-2010, 16:29

Why is everyone obsessing over whether the live presentation was recorded or not, when we have video of someone obviously playing the thing, with it working very reliably?

For me personally it has a lot to do with the confidence in their product.

Tracking the head / eye's in slow and extremely exaggerated motions is fairly easy (as can be displayed by the PS Eye, which is significantly underpowered in comparison). However, if they cannot do a Live Stage demo for the driving portion, then it raises some concerns for me. Frankly, there hasn't been a lot of 'positive' buzz around Kinect and it's consistency when it comes to accuracy.

Really, we're just looking to find out as much as we can with regards to the capabilities of these new devices. In the video where the gentlemen was playing for the press, there is a ton of unpredictability going on. Turns when he doesn't, or doesn't when he does, lag, no lag. It's not just this game though, Adventures was very similar as well.

Like I said though, really all of this is pointless discussion. The product is 5 months away, roughly, which means launch software will have at least another 4 months of polish before it goes off to the presses.

I don't think so, and Sony didn't really show Move working with any games except Sorcerer.

During the conference, sure, maybe that's all they showed, but it was still pretty impressive and the gestures worked well. Honestly I think it's more important (for PR) to show one product and have it work well, and reliably, as opposed to showing off multiple products that either don't work well all of the time, or don't appear to be genuine.

liolio

18-Jun-2010, 16:32

Looks like Burger king will do a Kinect marketing operation:
http://kotaku.com/5566758/burger-king-returns-to-the-360-this-time-for-kinect

Scott_Arm

18-Jun-2010, 16:37

liolio

18-Jun-2010, 16:44

Kotaku seems pretty opened and supportive about Kinect, they see huge potential for the dance game:
http://kotaku.com/5566468/the-best-game-for-kinect-game-could-be-the-most-important-game-of-e3

tha_con

18-Jun-2010, 16:45

There are plenty of positive impressions out there, and some that mention potential issues, or issues with certain games. In the end with the amount of hands-on from various people, I think there's absolutely zero justification for suggesting Kinect is fakery that doesn't work.

I'm not suggesting that it is 'fakery that doesn't work'. I'm suggesting that there is a lot that has been..over promised and under delivered. From day one we had been lead to believe one thing with regards to Kinect, and now that we're nearing the release, a lot of those promises (or even ideas and concepts) seem to have strangely evaporated into thin air.

I simply don't believe (and honestly never did believe) that this type of technology would be viable for video games, given the number of factors at play. I think there's plenty of justification to say that the product, when initially revealed last year, has shown little promise of actually achieving what Microsoft lead on (and a few here promised we'd see).

scooby_dooby

18-Jun-2010, 16:54

It really seems you are simply "wanting" it too fail, rather than giving an objective evaluation.

I think MS seems to have delivered on most of their promises (ie. Games seem to work well, menu navigation seems to work great, voice commands seem to work great..what else did they promise?).

Sure we won't know until it is released in the wild, but this extreme skepticism doesn't mesh with the hands-on reports we're getting.

Scott_Arm

18-Jun-2010, 16:56

liolio

18-Jun-2010, 16:58

AzBat

18-Jun-2010, 17:08

Looks like Burger king will do a Kinect marketing operation:
http://kotaku.com/5566758/burger-king-returns-to-the-360-this-time-for-kinect

Loved the Burger King games. Still have them in fact. Will be interesting to see what they plan. Hopefully it's more games, but they're coy about it in their press release. Another wait & see. Probably to be announced with launch pricing.

Tommy McClain

tha_con

18-Jun-2010, 17:11

What were you suggesting when you shared that gif and said you were pretty sure the demo was staged?

From what I've read, impressions have been good in general. There are issues that have been pointed out, that are worth discussing.

I'm suggesting that the stage demo was not authentic. That's it. There must have been reasons for that. It would make no logical sense to stage a demo if the product worked flawlessly.

For the rest of the posts, I'm simply not going to reply. I am, and always have been skeptic of this technology, and so far basic jumping, moving, and eye tracking doesn't convince me that it's here to stay, much less that I need to invest in it.

liolio

18-Jun-2010, 17:22

I'm suggesting that the stage demo was not authentic. That's it. There must have been reasons for that. It would make no logical sense to stage a demo if the product worked flawlessly.
Avoid what happened during Nintendo presentation?

For the rest of the posts, I'm simply not going to reply. I am, and always have been skeptic of this technology, and so far basic jumping, moving, and eye tracking doesn't convince me that it's here to stay, much less that I need to invest in it.
+1 I'm for one not questioning you reasons and the thread is still pretty clean so let's not get personal :)

Delta9

18-Jun-2010, 17:45

PS Move is looking great! It has a decent list with like 30 games and not just for the casual:cool:

Kinect was very bad IMO.I almost fell asleep watching its fitness game and it all was shovelware.

I could care less for Nintendo as it clearly centered around 7yr olds.

zed

18-Jun-2010, 17:56

I think there's absolutely zero justification for suggesting Kinect is fakery that doesn't work. Oh it does work somewhat but what Ive said from day one is it wont work well enuf to use in most games.
Party + fitness etc games OK everything else not OK
I posted this in the Kinect Games thread only for my post to be deleted, someone replied yes everyone already knew that, I replied thats not true we've still got ppl believing that all manner of games are gonna be done with kinect. And low and behold Silent_Buddha said a couple of posts laster "oh itll be great if u could control RTS's with this" :)

The reason is cause 99% accuracy is not good enuf, its gotta be 100%, anything less than 100% in a FPS,platformer,driving whatever is just gonna piss the player off so much they wont play it.

I see they're talking about having forza4 controlled with kinetic, Im so confident of what Ive said all along that if this doesnt have the option to play with a normal controller (i.e. not only kinect only) Im willing to stick $100 on it, anyone wanna take my bet?
(crickets) come on anyone (please)

Scott_Arm

18-Jun-2010, 18:04

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2010/06/driving-forza-with-the-kinect-looks-silly-feels-great.ars?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=rss

Good impressions of driving in Forza with Kinect, and some nice comments about recognition in Your Shape. Looks like Forza will provide Kinect as a driving option, but retain the option to play with a standard controller.

joker454

18-Jun-2010, 18:05

For me personally it has a lot to do with the confidence in their product.

On the show floor you simply couldn't miss Kinect, there were large booths of it everywhere and clearly marked, and anyone could gather around and watch all the games in action. That also let people see other companies interest in Kinect, such as the two people from Lego who were trying out one of the games and showing quite the interest in it. They basically had an entire section openly devoted to it and viewable by all, which to me seems to imply that they were quite confident in their product.

Delta9

18-Jun-2010, 18:05

Scott_Arm

18-Jun-2010, 18:17

Did they have to stand?:lol:

Nice trolling. I'm sure if Kinect came under a different brand name there be some detractors that would suddenly be extolling its virtues.

We'll see if you can end up sitting to play some games. I hope so. If you can't, a racing game is not something I'd want to play with Kinect. At least with Joy Ride the've turned in into more of a full body racer, where you use your hips to drift. It's not something everyone would like, but at least it gives you a reason for standing.

What you're entirely missing is that the post suggests the skeletal tracking is accurate enough to pick up subtleties in hand movement. Driving is something that can feel incredibly terrible when done wrong. It has to have enough sensitivity to make quick movements. There have been some previews saying the driving feels very good, which suggests the hardware is capable. There have been some that said the opposite. Whether this is down to environmental differences, or issues with retaining calibration or initial calibration is something we'll have to wait and see about.

The comments about it being able to see his press badge and collar on his shirt shows the time of flight camera has reasonable fidelity to pick up those kinds of detail. The bowling game is also able to detect wrist rotations for spin on the ball, which suggests some sophisticated motion sensing. I've read previews that suggested it works and others that suggested it is not capable enough. Again, we'll have to see how much is an issue of environment, how much is an issue of calibration and whether it can be fixed or not.

Shifty Geezer

18-Jun-2010, 18:23

I'm suggesting that the stage demo was not authentic. That's it. There must have been reasons for that. It would make no logical sense to stage a demo if the product worked flawlessly. Taht would only be true if stage demos could be trusted to go 100% accordingly to plan with no technical glitches. Alternatively, if you're going to present a landmark product and want to be absolutely sure there are no freak issues, such as perhaps caused by stage-lighting which has no bearing whatsoever on the home experience, you could play it safe just to be extremely cautious.

The huge amount of show-floor use shows the system works. You're reading too much into a stage production. Hell, all proper stage productions are smoke and mirrors - that's where the phrase comes from! ;)

For the rest of the posts, I'm simply not going to reply. I am, and always have been skeptic of this technology, and so far basic jumping, moving, and eye tracking doesn't convince me that it's here to stay...And Wii's sales don't convince you either?

liolio

18-Jun-2010, 18:26

Oh it does work somewhat but what Ive said from day one is it wont work well enuf to use in most games.
Party + fitness etc games OK everything else not OK
I posted this in the Kinect Games thread only for my post to be deleted, someone replied yes everyone already knew that, I replied that's not true we've still got ppl believing that all manner of games are gonna be done with kinect. And low and behold Silent_Buddha said a couple of posts laster "oh itll be great if u could control RTS's with this" :)
Well in a competitive and fast pace gaming there's no way to use Kinect outside of head-tracking, for other type of games I differ.
The wiimote is not precise at all while playing Mario Kart, when My wife and her friends where playing Mario kart in US last Christmas on my brother in law Wii they could not have cared less about inaccuracy, jumps that fail, etc.
RTS... I may agree as it's pretty complicated it may involve voice command etc. which would feel weird to me while stand lone in my living :lol: I can see ARPG (diablo, torchlight, sacred) Child of eden is a proof of concept. But one will note that the on screen pointer is huge so it may work for a arpg given a proper camera and some assisted aiming not for something as complicated as un bunch of unity in a RTS. But who knows? We're used to given pace in game may slower pace may be acceptable if you feel more involved in the experience. I don't say it will happen I say I can't dismiss it before I can such an experiment.

The reason is cause 99% accuracy is not good enuf, its gotta be 100%, anything less than 100% in a FPS,platformer,driving whatever is just gonna piss the player off so much they wont play it.
Ageing controllers fails, buttons get loose, etc. Anyway I somehow agree but you had to take in account how much it adds to the experience and fun to play. If it resolves close to zero it's not worse the headache if you have fun playing with Kinect why not. And as long as it's fair say you don't face people using pad (or KB+M thinking to someone :lol: ) it's ceteris paribus. Not all the core gamers are that competitive super serious about ranking/ etc. I'm not. More it's more likely a minority within core gamers (so called hardcore gamers). Fun has to be taken in account even for core gamers.

I see they're talking about having forza4 controlled with kinetic, Im so confident of what Ive said all along that if this doesnt have the option to play with a normal controller (i.e. not only kinect only) Im willing to stick $100 on it, anyone wanna take my bet?
(crickets) come on anyone (please)
??? Really not clear, but if you think Forza 4 "the" exclusive racers for Ms system won't be accessible to the whole xbox users base you miss something imho ;)

patsu

18-Jun-2010, 18:41

Ageing controllers fails, buttons get loose

While I like camera-based systems, the above point also applies to the camera. e.g., What if the Kinect motor or parts fail ? The whole experience may be affected, and it'd be more expensive to replace.

Both sensor-based and camera-based systems have their pros and cons. We need both.

EDIT: I would like to try the speech recognition again after all these years.

Delta9

18-Jun-2010, 18:42

Nice trolling. I'm sure if Kinect came under a different brand name there be some detractors that would suddenly be extolling its virtues.

We'll see if you can end up sitting to play some games. I hope so. If you can't, a racing game is not something I'd want to play with Kinect. At least with Joy Ride the've turned in into more of a full body racer, where you use your hips to drift. It's not something everyone would like, but at least it gives you a reason for standing.

What you're entirely missing is that the post suggests the skeletal tracking is accurate enough to pick up subtleties in hand movement. Driving is something that can feel incredibly terrible when done wrong. It has to have enough sensitivity to make quick movements. There have been some previews saying the driving feels very good, which suggests the hardware is capable. There have been some that said the opposite. Whether this is down to environmental differences, or issues with retaining calibration or initial calibration is something we'll have to wait and see about.

The comments about it being able to see his press badge and collar on his shirt shows the time of flight camera has reasonable fidelity to pick up those kinds of detail. The bowling game is also able to detect wrist rotations for spin on the ball, which suggests some sophisticated motion sensing. I've read previews that suggested it works and others that suggested it is not capable enough. Again, we'll have to see how much is an issue of environment, how much is an issue of calibration and whether it can be fixed or not.

I don't know about Joy Ride. I just watched some videos and it looked terrible and maybe half automated.

Scott_Arm

18-Jun-2010, 18:44

I don't know about Joy Ride. I just watched some videos and it looked terrible and maybe half automated.

Half automated how? Btw, I'm not saying Joy Ride is good. I'm just saying there's a reason for standing up to play it where with Forza you'd obviously rather be sitting since there's no reason for standing.

liolio

18-Jun-2010, 18:47

I don't know about Joy Ride. I just watched some videos and it looked terrible and maybe half automated.
Come on read Kotaku hand-on I linked. If anything the game seems to suck on its own Kinect or not :lol:

Scott_Arm

18-Jun-2010, 18:49

While I like camera-based systems, the above point also applies to the camera. e.g., What if the Kinect motor or parts fail ? The whole experience may be affected, and it'd be more expensive to replace.

Both sensor-based and camera-based systems have their pros and cons. We need both.

I'm pretty sure he's suggesting that analog controls will never retain 100% accuracy, whatever that means, as components do age and wear over time. Say your controller is used heavily. How do you know it has not worn to the point that it is now 98% of the accuracy it once had? You'd never know. Analog sticks and anolog buttons wear out, since they're mechanical.

Regardless, I don't think it's much of an argument for or against Kinect. Like Wii, people are not concerned so much about unattainable perfect accuracy as they are the experience. The only question is whether the accuracy is good enough to make the game fun, not how well the accuracy compares to a standard gamepad.

Delta9

18-Jun-2010, 18:50

Half automated how? Btw, I'm not saying Joy Ride is good. I'm just saying there's a reason for standing up to play it where with Forza you'd obviously rather be sitting since there's no reason for standing.

It looks like half the movements are on auto pilot following the track and with not real control.
Either way it didn't look good IMO,with clear movements not responding like speed burst.

patsu

18-Jun-2010, 18:55

I'm pretty sure he's suggesting that analog controls will never retain 100% accuracy, whatever that means, as components do age and wear over time. Say your controller is used heavily. How do you know it has not worn to the point that it is now 98% of the accuracy it once had? You'd never know. Analog sticks and anolog buttons wear out, since they're mechanical.

If the experience is bad enough (bad buttons or wonky sensor), the user will replace it. If it's not noticeable, then play some more. ^_^

To detect faulty controller (both Kinect and Move), the vendors should have diagnostic or user calibration tools built into the system.

These days, electronic parts can wear out too.

liolio

18-Jun-2010, 18:59

Aren't you guys taking the argument I put together to explain that pad are neither 100% accurate/reliable too seriously? Not that's it's not true but my point was mostly to show that accuracy is not everything to everyone, neither super competitive gaming even within core gamers. Kinect is not intend to make you the input for something like CoD that's pretty much clear.
Talk about automated show, well no one can prove one way or another and it's pretty much pointless as now we have hand-on from multiple sources.

Scott_Arm

18-Jun-2010, 19:00

If the experience is bad enough (bad buttons or wonky sensor), the users will replace it. If it's not noticeable, then play some more. ^_^

To detect faulty controller (both Kinect and Move), the vendors should have diagnostic or user calibration tools built into the system.

Electronic parts can wear out too.

I understand that, but it really has nothing to do with what he was talking about. The suggestion was accuracy has to be 100% perfect (whatever that is) or people will not play. I'm assuming he means accuracy relative to the gamepad. The thing is, one gamepad might not be as accurate as another gamepad because of wear and tear, and within a certain tolerance the user may not even know. You'll adapt to any change in the controller, up to a certain point, and will not notice degradation. I wear out controllers playing NHL, but usually I don't notice how bad they've actually gotten until I switch to the new one. The tolerance for accuracy in Kinect is unknown at this point, and it'll be hard to make comparisons of the intangibles. Obviously some people enjoy moving more than pushing buttons and than may overcome the loss in accuracy for some people with some games. That seams fairly obvious from the success of the Wii.

patsu

18-Jun-2010, 19:04

If you're talking about accuracy instead of reliability, I think the recognition accuracy depends more on the software. All the hardware does is to feed you the right data as fast as possible, and as precise as possible. e.g., WiiSports Resort can still work better than Sports Championship despite PS Move's higher precision.

However, there may be other factors that "change the game". e.g., Using PS Move to write may be easier than using Wiimote+ because of absolute positioning. Then again Wiimote+ can be complemented by Vitality Sensor.

EDIT: It kinda depends on the target audience too. If the game is a "simulator" (e.g., MLB 2010), it may put a different demand on the gamer and the system.

tha_con

18-Jun-2010, 20:17

And Wii's sales don't convince you either?

I don't exactly see what this has to do with my comment.

Either way, I think there is a sizable difference between a product that retails for $200 and gives you a complete experience, and a product that could run you anywhere from $150 to $450 (depending on your status as a consumer, own, don't own, etc).

Of everything they've shown, the only thing I can see being a commercial success at this point is Dance Central. I don't think Kinectamals or Kinect Adventures have any staying power, as the 360's age demographic is a bit different from the Wii's. I understand they are trying to expand the market, but I just don't see that happening. We'll see though.

Cyan

18-Jun-2010, 21:24

New video of The Sorcery, for PS Move. My favourite parts are when the player drinks the potion and when he creates a whirlwind. It looks like a pretty fun and good game.

Wr_BhpVq7ek

obonicus

18-Jun-2010, 21:48

Is the potion drinking why people applaud the moment he turns into a rat?

patsu

18-Jun-2010, 21:52

Squilliam

18-Jun-2010, 21:53

People... just to remind you there are rules against arguing about peoples motivations in these forums. Not speaking to anyone in particular, just saying that because I've seen several posts in this thread which have been graciously overlooked by our resident Thor.

goonergaz

19-Jun-2010, 00:08

My personal problem with the staged Forza demo is that it was acted out. Why not show footage of someone playing it rather than try to pull a fast one?

Last year Sony did the last min Move demo and in many ways it was far more impressive watching some guys messing with the tech, it's like that footage of the eyetoy software that you can draw and turn into something playable - I never get bored of that sort of stuff.

WRT Kinect in the UK we still have no idea on price, and Move has some odd US to UK conversions at $50/£40 and $30/£30!?

Rangers

19-Jun-2010, 02:15

Rangers

19-Jun-2010, 02:18

IMHO, the amazing thing about the Sorcery demo is that everything works seemingly effortlessly and in one continuous motion. There is no frequent calibration. I don't have to worry about nitty gritty details (FPS-style aiming reticule). When I draw a line, a line appears in the game world. When I drink a potion, I transform. When I raise and twirl my hands, a tornado rises out of no where. Moreover, I can deepen the experience by combining these simple elements. It's like a canvas of magic.

I can't quite figure out how he walks the apprentice without a nunchuck though.

If they can keep the entire game simple and deep, and the creature AI strong, I might just play this over and over, each time with different gestures and mix.

Sony stressed the sorcery demo as "the advantage of buttons" type of thing, but while watching it struck me you could do it with Natal. Just put spell cycle on a left hand wave, cast on the right.

But then I remember you have to navigate. Can be done on subcontroller with Move, Not sure about Natal. You could walk in place or something, but that would be pretty lame...

Silent_Buddha

19-Jun-2010, 02:19

Yup, I don't think forums will ever reflect the popularity of Kinect. But the same could be said of the Wii in many ways.

Casuals and traditional non gamers just don't go to these types of forums.

Regards,
SB

(((interference)))

19-Jun-2010, 02:22

Well at Amazon Kinect is #2 and Move is #35 or something. I just post it because it seems like the forums reacted incredibly viciously to kinect, but they are the hardcore and it's very possible kinect could be a hit anyway with the casual market.

Yea, I definitely think Kinect is going to be a bigger success than Move, especially considering MS backs their initiatives to a much greater degree than Sony does - as devs like Joker has mentioned.

The tech bloggers seem to think so too:

True to Sony form, PlayStation Move out-rawrs the Nintendo Wii's motion controls on paper, using the PlayStation Eye camera to track the Move controllers more accurately, with real depth-mapping. (And the technical demos of the hardware are just straight up neat.) But like Mark says, it's just Wii HD. It's derivative, not powerful. You wave sticks around. (It's not even superior to the Wii, at least in some game demos: "The combat? Laggy. And I never felt like my punches were registered the way I threw them onscreen.")

The home console hardware that garnered the most attention—judging by people's reactions, the lines at E3, and our own experiences—is Microsoft's completely controller-less Kinect, which seemingly promises something completely new. You are the controller with Kinect. That's killer hardware.

http://gizmodo.com/5567221/how-sony-lost-the-videogame-hardware-race

Nesh

19-Jun-2010, 02:25

Well at Amazon Kinect is #2 and Move is #35 or something. I just post it because it seems like the forums reacted incredibly viciously to kinect, but they are the hardcore and it's very possible kinect could be a hit anyway with the casual market.

Oh I think it will be a smash hit with the casuals. I expect it to be a smash hit in general.

For people like us we see its shortcomings and we are a bit turned off. But the casual is easier impressed and more forgiving.

I expect it to sell like hotcakes even if Move happens to be more functional. I dont see Move's concept that convincing and impressive. It sounds more like the Wii experience. Whereas Kinect communicates a step further and an experience someone would expect from science fiction

The combination of good marketing, concept and experience (even with its shortcomings) ring very well in the ears of the average Joe. People are already excited simply with the idea of motion control and that you supposedly have full control of the action by simply using your body.

Kids will be super excited with that, and the casual grown ups see this as a technological break through. They wont study the product from the insight out like we do.

The product its at the point where it can be acceptable and impress

Nesh

19-Jun-2010, 02:55

http://gizmodo.com/5567221/how-sony-lost-the-videogame-hardware-race

I dont know. That article kind of gives the impression that it tries to find reasons to bash Sony. I never liked Gizmodo's articles.

Cyan

20-Jun-2010, 03:21

This is one of those games that can make Move so fun! I wonder why they don't use the navigation controller. Very entertaining and enjoyable stuff

3OTLASzsbFQ

Is the potion drinking why people applaud the moment he turns into a rat?
Well, okay, I just chuckled aloud reading your comment. Nice sense of humour. He plays like the Wizard of Oz, :smile: as it were, that's why they applauded him.

Another interesting thing about motion controllers is that developers should allow people to customize the movements.

I mean, drinking a potion can be great and fun for a while, but after the eighth time you drink a potion the novelty wears off.

So creating a new move to drink the potion or other combinations would add replayability to the game.

(((interference)))

20-Jun-2010, 05:51

I feel really sad I had to read that. I don't remember, ever, reading such an article full of hatred. :mad:

The author of the article shouldn't even be considered a journalist.

I mean it could have been written by a fanboy, but if that were the case.., those are actually FUN (I must admit some fanboy responses and thoughts make me laugh out loud, especially taking into account they are unpaid by their favourite company).

But an actual journalist writing something along the lines of that article is actually a sheer hater. I have never heard of that page before and I am glad it's the last time I'm goint to read an article of them.

The last sentence of the article is like one of those Horatio's one liners in CSI Miami, just the hater version.

Actually, Gizmodo is a prominent tech blog, probably the biggest and they are definitely independent and not paid hacks.

I wouldn't call it hatred, it's more frustration at how a once great company has lost it's way.

And their 'we miss Sony (http://gizmodo.com/tag/wemisssony/)' articles are generally pretty spot on. It's hard to disagree with this article for instance:
http://gizmodo.com/5477633/how-sony-lost-its-way

What's also clearly evident is that Sony who last gen, was far and away the biggest player is now, only a generation later trailing upstarts like MS (who aren't exactly agile and strategic themselves), despite having the best hardware and a plethora of AAA studios bashing out titles for them.

I thought some journo already played some racing game on Kinect and even made comments about the experience.

Didn't the early Natal enabled Burnout demo allowed you to sit and race? i remember you could accelerate by moving your foot forward so you would think so.

patsu

20-Jun-2010, 06:11

Actually, Gizmodo is a prominent tech blog, probably the biggest and they are definitely independent and not paid hacks.

If my memory still serves me, Engadget is bigger. Gizmodo is "just" a blog. Sometimes their analysis and opinions can be off also, like any other blog sites and posters.

I wouldn't call it hatred, it's more frustration at how a once great company has lost it's way.

And their 'we miss Sony (http://gizmodo.com/tag/wemisssony/)' articles are generally pretty spot on. It's hard to disagree with this article for instance:
http://gizmodo.com/5477633/how-sony-lost-its-way

What's also clearly evident is that Sony who last gen, was far and away the biggest player is now, only a generation later trailing upstarts like MS (who aren't exactly agile and strategic themselves), despite having the best hardware and a plethora of AAA studios bashing out titles for them.

Sony is doing much much better than in 2005. I think we will see more interesting content and technologies from them. However they do have "big company" issues. Weighted down by their traditional CE legacy, their business model is also a little dated.

But they are turning around.

(((interference)))

20-Jun-2010, 06:18

If my memory still serves me, Engadget is bigger. Gizmodo is "just" a blog. Sometimes their analysis and opinions can be off also, like any other blog sites and posters.

Sony is doing much much better than in 2005. I think we will see more interesting content and technologies from them. However they do have "big company" issues. Weighted down by their traditional CE legacy, their business model is also a little dated.

But they are turning around.

They're both 'just blogs'.

I follow both, Gizmodo is longer running and more 'cult'.
Engadget is more straight up facts. It's like Kotaku vs Joystick.

Gizmodo also has all the big stories, like the iPhone 4 prototype leak. Gizmodo is also more independent, and will speak out regardless of advertiser lashback.

And anyway, actual devs like Joker seem to agree with Gizmodo's point of view.

patsu

20-Jun-2010, 06:24

Yap, they are both blogs. Traffic-wise, Engadget is bigger (I believe I got this from Wired).

obonicus

20-Jun-2010, 06:34

This is one of those games that can make Move so fun! I wonder why they don't use the navigation controller. Very entertaining and enjoyable stuff

Because it's Time Crisis. The most you get in Time Crisis is cover.

As to engadget vs. gizmodo, you're not really winning with either, but gawker blogs function in a more dishonest, muckraking fashion. Unless something has changed, writers are encouraged to get as many uniques per article as possible, which is partly why Kotaku is half troll-baiting snark, half news (well, okay, one third news, one third troll-baiting, one third cakes).

(((interference)))

20-Jun-2010, 06:34

Yap, they are both blogs. Traffic-wise, Engadget is bigger (I believe I got this from Wired).

Yes, but historically Engadget has been more of a follower, compared to Gizmodo, which are more radical and opinionated.

Engadget wouldn't really comment on something like this and if they did they would be far more guarded and neutral.

Nevertheless, Gizmodo are still heavyweights and wield considerable influence over the tech world.

And as I mentioned before, look at what the actual devs and tech commentators are saying, and stuff like Amazon preorders for Kinect/Move.

patsu

20-Jun-2010, 06:39

If you're interested in the race/grudges between Engadget and Gizmodo, you should read this: http://www.wired.com/entertainment/theweb/magazine/16-04/mf_gadgetblogs (if not already)

They are influential because of the traffic size. It doesn't mean their opinions are guaranteed to be correct.

obonicus

20-Jun-2010, 06:46

Amazon preorders

Let's not go there, there's no information to be gleaned from amazon preorders. Not to mention that I don't think anyone really questions that Kinect will do better than Move. The gizmodo thing isn't comparing the two, it's saying that MS' showing was even better than Nintendo with the freaking 3DS and its dozen+ promised games.

tha_con

20-Jun-2010, 07:09

They're both 'just blogs'.

I follow both, Gizmodo is longer running and more 'cult'.
Engadget is more straight up facts. It's like Kotaku vs Joystick.

Gizmodo also has all the big stories, like the iPhone 4 prototype leak. Gizmodo is also more independent, and will speak out regardless of advertiser lashback.

And anyway, actual devs like Joker seem to agree with Gizmodo's point of view.

Gizmodo is, and always will be a joke.

Also, it's a bit over the top to say "actual devs like joker", when the harsh reality is, he's the only "dev" here professing such an outrageous point of view, that Sony has "lost their way". They are no different now than they were a decade ago, prototyping multiple types of technology, experimenting, and releasing things to the public to 'see what catches'. I could list dozens of examples, but the short sweet answer is: People will always side with a company that presents them with a product they like. It's human nature. Taking those opinions to heart, or as evidence of fact, is silly. In this case, Gizmodo clearly isn't into the Sony product, and feels that other companies offer them similar experiences. To say the company was the biggest loser of E3, however, is nothing short of sensationalist journalism, a ploy to generate traffic among 'core gamers'. It's amateur writing, and laughable (as are most of the articles Gizmodo publishes).

Enough bashing to them though. Back on topic.

I find it interesting that so many people are missing a key factor with motion controls. Everyone is so busy talking about the accessibility and functionality of these devices, but no one is talking about the immersible nature of the software. I read a post on GAF that made me think about this. The immersion is probably the single biggest selling point for these devices, and I'm kind of ashamed to say I'd never thought about it yet.

(((interference)))

20-Jun-2010, 07:37

I saw that. The Kinect camera should be useful for more than full body skeleton analysis. It should be possible to recognize say, hand gestures only. May want to give MS some time to sort things out. It is not uncommon in software projects to stall and then pick up momentum suddenly (once a difficult issue has been resolved).

I think the dancing game, we just saw the unprocessed, depth map image (skinned) for the two secondary dancers.

For the record, Natal was supposed to allow 4 players to play, how are they going to do Buzz style quiz shows now - it apparently can't differentiate between voices either (again contrary to the initial vision).

Gizmodo is, and always will be a joke.

Also, it's a bit over the top to say "actual devs like joker", when the harsh reality is, he's the only "dev" here professing such an outrageous point of view, that Sony has "lost their way". They are no different now than they were a decade ago, prototyping multiple types of technology, experimenting, and releasing things to the public to 'see what catches'. I could list dozens of examples, but the short sweet answer is: People will always side with a company that presents them with a product they like. It's human nature. Taking those opinions to heart, or as evidence of fact, is silly. In this case, Gizmodo clearly isn't into the Sony product, and feels that other companies offer them similar experiences. To say the company was the biggest loser of E3, however, is nothing short of sensationalist journalism, a ploy to generate traffic among 'core gamers'. It's amateur writing, and laughable (as are most of the articles Gizmodo publishes).

Enough bashing to them though. Back on topic.

I find it interesting that so many people are missing a key factor with motion controls. Everyone is so busy talking about the accessibility and functionality of these devices, but no one is talking about the immersible nature of the software. I read a post on GAF that made me think about this. The immersion is probably the single biggest selling point for these devices, and I'm kind of ashamed to say I'd never thought about it yet.

Sensationalist they definitely are, but a 'joke'? They did break the biggest tech story of the year, and they have the likes of Bill Gates and Steve Jobs as readers.

And Joker is probably the only dev who actually posts regularly here and gives in depth insights into a range of topics. He seems to take a lot of cop as the SDF vehemently disagree with what he tells them and prefer their own version of reality.

tha_con

20-Jun-2010, 07:55

I think the dancing game, we just saw the unprocessed, depth map image (skinned) for the two secondary dancers.

For the record, Natal was supposed to allow 4 players to play, how are they going to do Buzz style quiz shows now - it apparently can't differentiate between voices either (again contrary to the initial vision).

Sensationalist they definitely are, but a 'joke'? They did break the biggest tech story of the year, and they have the likes of Bill Gates and Steve Jobs as readers.

And Joker is probably the only dev who actually posts regularly here and gives in depth insights into a range of topics. He seems to take a lot of cop as the SDF vehemently disagree with what he tells them and prefer their own version of reality.

Breaking a tech story by luck doesn't make you a serious tech blog. The manner in which you report your content, "blog" or not, determines how you are received, IMO.

Anyway, I'm not going to comment much on joker or his insights. In short, they are unreliable and full of conjecture, essentially taken to be true because no one can prove it wrong.