Old Discussion Thread for all 3 motion controllers

[scently]

I am curious to see something like DMC4 using Move, Wiimote+ and Natal: You can aim and grab enemies from a distance into your hands to beat them up.
:lol::lol::lol:
That would be quite interesting.

[goonergaz]

This is interesting, if exceptionally vague...

http://www.gamereactor.eu/news/3440/Natal-support+for+Ghost+Recon/?sid=56ffe2fe7bd8aa4489013460439063a7



Although it's very vague and hand wavey statement (literally :mrgreen:), it would suggest Natal can cope with a player who is sitting with a controller.

It also may help reduce fears that Natal is too much overhead for AAA games.

this sort of thing smells of sixaxis - limited poor implementation for a could of games and then everyone will forget about it.

[goonergaz]

did anyone see last weeks gadetshow? they were playing a PS3 (I assumed as I could see what looked like the PSEye) fighting game - looked a bit like streets of rage - using the camera to put you in the game, he said it was clever enough to know who was actually playing and to ignore everyone else including the front room. he did mention Natal, but I'm fairly sure it wasn't Natal - yet is basically did similar things (ie know know was playing, ignored everything else and put you in the game).

[Shifty Geezer]

did anyone see last weeks gadetshow? they were playing a PS3.Was it PS3? I thought it was something proprietary for the arcades.

[goonergaz]

Was it PS3? I thought it was something proprietary for the arcades.

I don't know exactly what it was - but it was a PSEye on the TV from what I could make out. I thought it was odd he mentioned Natal and then about it being clever enough to remove everything bar the player even without greenscreen

[patsu]

I don't think there's a clear solution to what's supposed to happen in a 3rd-person game where the player can walk towards the camera. How do you "1:1" when the avatar's right arm is on the left side of the screen and vice versa?

Can't the motion control system flip the user's limb inputs ?

I think there are a lot of rooms for innovation in motion controlled UI. e.g., Natal doesn't really need to stick to PSEye's 2D motion menu; they could create a custom menu of soldiers that are spaced further apart to accommodate Natal's coarser 3D pointing granularity.

At the same time, Move/Wiimote+ type of system may focus more on direct, in-game picking. It doesn't always need to work that way though. e.g., The in-game pointing scheme will have problem if the target is behind the user (The user has to turn around to select the target).

[goonergaz]

Was it PS3? I thought it was something proprietary for the arcades.

Here you go - it'll be on PS3 and X360 by the looks of it:

http://www.virtualairguitar.com/games/kung-fu/about/

I'm certain the PS3 version was being played

[Shifty Geezer]

Good find! It probably was the PS3 version then. Edit : Actually could well be the PC version, as that'd be most readily to hand. Edit 2 : Found YouTube clip. Definitely PS3!
Rlyy-XEgDB0
This shows trouble with the background removal, but that's due to the low contrast. Natal should be pristine in all circumstances (then again, how will it cope with flowing clothes?). Looks like a quality title and fun game to boot.

[Arwin]

Oh dear ... well, that's clearly a regular, 2D title that just uses the basic webcam, no 3D or motion controls. Could have been a PS2 title 6 years ago! I think this kind of stuff should be left to XNA type platforms to be honest, but opinions clearly differ! :D

[Billy Idol]

Here is a video with some detailed view of the Move controller:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/technologybrierdudleysblog/2011645707_video_sony_ps3_move_demo_plus.html

[Shifty Geezer]

Oh dear ... well, that's clearly a regular, 2D title that just uses the basic webcam, no 3D or motion controls. Could have been a PS2 title 6 years ago! No it couldn't because of the background removal. This sort of background removal has been limited to green-screening up until now. To extract live video elements and put them in a game is quite impressive, if a little shonky at the moment.

[Arwin]

No it couldn't because of the background removal. This sort of background removal has been limited to green-screening up until now. To extract live video elements and put them in a game is quite impressive, if a little shonky at the moment.

Is it live? I thought it was just cutting you out once from a picture and then auto-generating the animation from that. If not, then you're probably right and it is more impressive. The game though ... it looks like a very bad version of Rag Doll Kung Fu (which I personally liked, but not very many people did).

[patsu]

Good find! It probably was the PS3 version then. Edit : Actually could well be the PC version, as that'd be most readily to hand. Edit 2 : Found YouTube clip. Definitely PS3!
Rlyy-XEgDB0
This shows trouble with the background removal, but that's due to the low contrast. Natal should be pristine in all circumstances (then again, how will it cope with flowing clothes?). Looks like a quality title and fun game to boot.

:no: The video says "This video contains content from Channel 5, who has blocked it in your country on copyright grounds".

[Alucardx23]

Wow Natal will require an AC adapter I didn't expect that, I suppose the USB port doesn’t have enough power for the internal processor.

http://imgur.com/XrxB3.jpg

http://imgur.com/zDDjy.jpg

http://imgur.com/BWZ7z.jpg

http://imgur.com/e1pUH.jpg

http://imgur.com/g123l.jpg

http://imgur.com/8K2YD.jpg

http://www.thelostgamer.com/2010/04/20/project-natal-development-kit-photos-leaked/

[Alucardx23]

Motorized tilt mechanism? What’s this, I guest natal will make little adjustments to keep track of the person on camera, or maybe is just to keep Natal balanced.

[patsu]

:no: The video says "This video contains content from Channel 5, who has blocked it in your country on copyright grounds".

Heh heh, found a video on the official site:
http://www.virtualairguitar.com/games/kung-fu/about/

Here're the dates for seeing it in-person: ^_^
http://www.virtualairguitar.com/games/kung-fu/


Tour Dates
Gadget Show Live - April 4-11, Birmingham, UK
New York Design Week - May 14-17, New York, USA
E3 - June 15-17, Los Angeles, USA
GDC Europe - August 16-18, Cologne, Germany


There should be some limitations to this technology.

They should be able to track better (a la Puppetry demo) and use weapons with a Move controller.


EDIT:
Motorized tilt mechanism? What’s this, I guest natal will make little adjustments to keep track of the person on camera, or maybe is just to keep Natal balanced.

Yap ! I have always thought Sony and MS should put their cameras and motion controllers on a wireless mobile platform so we can play with it like a robot (Aibo !). Would be useful for some applications. ^_^

[Graham]

Wow Natal will require an AC adapter I didn't expect that, I suppose the USB port doesn’t have enough power for the internal processor.


That's certainly surprising. Of course, it is a debug unit. We don't know what the final hardware requirements are.

However if that is close to the final design, it's a lot deeper than I anticipated. I'm very surprised it's motorized.
I'm also a bit concerned it's more complex than anticipated.. That usually means more expensive.

...

That xbox design has an awfully large ring of light. :mrgreen:

[Shifty Geezer]

Wow Natal will require an AC adapter I didn't expect that, I suppose the USB port doesn’t have enough power for the internal processor.
More likely trouble powering the motor and dual cameras. It's certainly not a small peripheral!

[Nesh]

Wow Natal will require an AC adapter I didn't expect that, I suppose the USB port doesn’t have enough power for the internal processor.

http://media.multiplayer.it/images/2010/04/20/309709.project-natal-per-x360.img.jpg

http://media.multiplayer.it/images/2010/04/20/309715.project-natal-per-x360.img.jpg

http://media.multiplayer.it/images/2010/04/20/309707.project-natal-per-x360.img.jpg

http://media.multiplayer.it/images/2010/04/20/309706.project-natal-per-x360.img.jpg

http://media.multiplayer.it/images/2010/04/20/309710.project-natal-per-x360.img.jpg

http://translate.google.it/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=it&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http://multiplayer.it/notizie/76540-project-natal-le-prime-foto-di-natal-in-esclusiva-mondiale-su-mit.html&sl=it&tl=en
haha reminds me of the Mega CD and 32X days

I think the Camera could be tilling to follow the player and increase also the range. Wider range eliminates some problems

[patsu]

Seattle Times were at the PS Move Seattle event:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/technologybrierdudleysblog/2011645707_video_sony_ps3_move_demo_plus.html

Includes a video interview with the Socom 4 developer.

I haven't read it myself. Got to run ! ^_^

[Gradthrawn]

That xbox design has an awfully large ring of light. :mrgreen:

Debug unit, perhaps? Surely they wouldn't let slip the 360 Slim design like this, would they? :lol:

[Graham]

Debug unit, perhaps? Surely they wouldn't let slip the 360 Slim design like this, would they? :lol:

No. :-)
I haven't seen any teeny-tiny debug units popping up (and if I did, I wouldn't be saying so :yes:).
I imagine it's just funny custom art. But you never know... :mrgreen: They may have gone mad and put USB ports on the bottom too :razz:


In any case, someone has massively broken their NDA.

[AzBat]

Very surprising about the tilt motor & AC adapter. There goes the hopes of a low cost package. The tilt motor makes sense, makes it easy to align no matter if it's on top or below the TV. Just wished there was some way to hang it off the top of my TV since I have mine mounted to a swivel arm.

Also nice to hear about the voice command training & the hundreds of commands like "Turn on the Xbox 360" or "Go to Facebook".

Tommy McClain

[AzBat]

BTW, any possibility of accelerometers in the thing to make sure it's level? If the rumor is true about MS removing or downsizing the chips, maybe they did that in order to accommodate the tilt motor?

Tommy McClain

[patsu]

Does it need to be perfectly levelled to work ? It seems like an overkill to incorporate a new sensor for one setup purpose.

[(((interference)))]

Wow, the Natal peripheral looks much more complex (and larger) than I was expecting, so does it actually swivel to track players who may be going outside it's current FoV?

[patsu]

I think the motorized swivel will allow Natal to bundle a built-in security (home surveillance) app. ^_^

There is no real need for an accelerometer in the hardware.

[AzBat]

There is no real need for an accelerometer in the hardware.

Most likely, but before today nobody thought there would be a tilt motor either.

BTW, remember it only says "tilt", I don't think the motor will allow it to turn horizontally.

Tommy McClain

[patsu]

If it's only for tilting, it's less interesting. Requiring AC is a bigger surprise.

[(((interference)))]

If it's only for tilting, it's less interesting. Requiring AC is a bigger surprise.

I hope it can swivel as well as tilt, I mean if they're already doing tilt how much more would it cost to let it swivel as well.

I would rather not have it powered but at least the AC power cord joins the USB cable and only one cord leads to the actual peripheral, which is much neater than having two cables - you would probably connect the USB cable to the port on the rear of the console anyway so it'll be close to the powerpoint in most set ups.

[patsu]

I hope it can swivel as well as tilt, I mean if they're already doing tilt how much more would it cost to let it swivel as well.

That's my sentiment too. There is still a chance that the unit has a swivel. The warning label only talks about tilt perhaps to prevent people from pressing down on the unit.

If it's tilt only, I thought about projectors but they don't really work well with Natal since it'd be projecting into the user's eyes.

[rabidrabbit]

If it swivels or tilts, it'd need a bigger, more stable base.
Looks too flimsy to include any tilting motor (Edit: Ok, so the manual clearly says it tilts, so if it's legit, it tilts)
Certainly swivel is out of the question, the camera being so long it would neet surprisingly large clearance around it.

What bugs me with these cameras (PSEye too) is that they're not easily attachable on top of a flatscreen TV, and even on a flat table, the weight of the cable can move the camera too easily.

They should at least sell an accessory adapter for fixxing the cam on the frame of a flatscreen TV, as in some PC webcams.
http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&q=webcam&cid=11742025576225527943&ei=YILOS7POMOav-QbTzoy5Aw&sa=title&ved=0CA0Q8wIwATgA#p

[patsu]

How heavy is the accessory ? If it can tilt, why do you need to set it on top of the TV ? My PS Eye is at the base of my TV and it works fine (You can tilt the PSEye manually).

[rabidrabbit]

How heavy is the accessory ? If it can tilt, why do you need to set it on top of the TV ? My PS Eye is at the base of my TV and it works fine (You can tilt the PSEye manually).
I might need to put it on top of the TV because there's not enough room in front of the TV. In my setup I might need to put the camera on top of the center channel speaker that is directly below the TV that hangs on the wall so that the top of the speaker is just below the screen. If I put a camera on the speaker, it might just occlude the view.

[patsu]

I see. Yes, a camera clip or mount would be helpful. I guess the Wii sensor bar may be light and sleek enough to stay obscure.

[(((interference)))]

Hmm, is it just me or is the camera swiveled slightly in these pics:
http://media.multiplayer.it/images/2010/04/20/309707.project-natal-per-x360.img.jpg
http://media.multiplayer.it/images/2010/04/20/309706.project-natal-per-x360.img.jpg

Whereas in this one it's straight
http://media.multiplayer.it/images/2010/04/20/309709.project-natal-per-x360.img.jpg

So maybe it can swivel and tilt?

[patsu]

Hard to say at this point. The unit may be turned manually (like PS Eye). I think it's more logical for MS to incorporate both tilt and swivel since they seem to have spent so much money on it.

[rabidrabbit]

I'm pretty sure it will have manual swivel.

[Graham]

Well, if it has tilt and swivel, then it's only logical to presume the camera has a zoom too.


Big brother is watching you.... :mrgreen:

[rabidrabbit]

Wouldn't it be cute if the camera was designed to look more like some robot head :)
http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/gadgetlab/images/2008/10/16/minoru_3d_2.jpg

[MfA]

Zero punctuation weighed in a bit on motion control at the end of his Red Steel 2 review (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/1610-Red-Steel-2) (only applicable to Wii motion plus and single wand games).

[Shifty Geezer]

Came across these month-old Engadget vids (http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/23/playstation-move-bonus-round-move-party-hands-on-and-interview/) about Move, that may have been posted previously. There's not really much to them, except new to me is the information in the second vid that some Sony developers have hooked up their PS3's and Move to help create game content faster! It's found a use a professional 3D interface for artists, which is a good sign of Move's ease and accuracy.

[(((interference)))]

Hard to say at this point. The unit may be turned manually (like PS Eye). I think it's more logical for MS to incorporate both tilt and swivel since they seem to have spent so much money on it.

Yea, it makes no sense to have motorised tilt but only manual swivel

[Rangers]

Very surprising about the tilt motor & AC adapter. There goes the hopes of a low cost package. The tilt motor makes sense, makes it easy to align no matter if it's on top or below the TV. Just wished there was some way to hang it off the top of my TV since I have mine mounted to a swivel arm.

Also nice to hear about the voice command training & the hundreds of commands like "Turn on the Xbox 360" or "Go to Facebook".

Tommy McClain

Well, yes my first response is "motor=increased cost, less reliability" but then again I'm sure eventually they can get that cost down to pennies too...key being eventually. Overall it's a shame though. I wonder what it's exactly for.

As for the size, it doesn't look too big when on top of the TV, plus it's clearly a prototype as evidenced by the use of "project Natal" which is only a code name in the instructions. Maybe it will end up being that big but I doubt that's the final design. But it is starting to shape up into something tangible which is cool.

[patsu]

Well, if it has tilt and swivel, then it's only logical to presume the camera has a zoom too.


Big brother is watching you.... :mrgreen:

I always thought it will have zoom since the IR camera can zoom into an area to read the gestures. And yes, I believe surveillance is a killer app.

Wouldn't it be cute if the camera was designed to look more like some robot head :)
http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/gadgetlab/images/2008/10/16/minoru_3d_2.jpg

Yap ! I thought PS Eye and Natal should look anthropomorphic.

Came across these month-old Engadget vids (http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/23/playstation-move-bonus-round-move-party-hands-on-and-interview/) about Move, that may have been posted previously. There's not really much to them, except new to me is the information in the second vid that some Sony developers have hooked up their PS3's and Move to help create game content faster! It's found a use a professional 3D interface for artists, which is a good sign of Move's ease and accuracy.

The Move Party game looks polished and rad. ^_^

[grandmaster]

Move Party is great fun... my favourite title.

I think the thing with these motion control games is that fundamentally they've all based on great concepts rather than great graphics. Waggle control in SOCOM was OK, but not exactly a game changer.

It's in this regard that I'm not really worried about the CPU usage of Natal. The games need to be built around the hardware, not tacked on to existing pad-driven games.

[patsu]

I think it depends on the game and what developers want to do.

It seems that something like Alan Wake (Flashlight), Heavy Rain (virtual world UI), Flower, FolkLore, Resident Evil co-op (A pad user + a Move user), Demon's Souls (melee combat and archery !), MLB The Show, LittleBigPlanet (creator mode), etc. may be very suitable for PS Move. The "realistic" versions may have a different feel to the casual versions.

I am kinda curious in Socom's control scheme since a few people say it's friendly to mouse users. Some sort of Starcraft/Warcraft RTS may be interesting too.

The one I'm not too sure yet is Mirror's Edge.

[patsu]

PlayStation Move, Project Natal to Attract 'PS2 Type' Consumers, says Sega:
http://www.industrygamers.com/news/playstation-move-project-natal-to-attract-ps2-type-consumers-says-sega/


With E3 less than two months away now, most video game publishers are preparing to unveil their software lineups for the upcoming motion platforms, PlayStation Move and Project Natal. It'll certainly be interesting to see how the support is divided or if the third parties look to Move and Natal equally as they plan their motion strategies. For its part, Sega seems quite excited about both and Mike Hayes, President of Sega West, told IndustryGamers this week that his company has big plans for Move and Natal.

...

[patsu]

PlayStation Move Developer Diary: Brunswick Pro Bowling:


We are all very excited to be working with Crave and Brunswick to make the definitive bowling game. A big part of that excitement has to do with the real world data we get from the PlayStation Move motion controller. For more details how perfect the PlayStation Move is for Brunswick Pro Bowling, check out the video below.


http://blog.us.playstation.com/2010/04/26/playstation-move-developer-diary-brunswick-pro-bowling/


There are many different styles to bowling and thanks to accuracy of the PlayStation Move, we can mimic the technique of all types of throws. Whether you throw a huge hook or toss a straight ball at rocket speed, the PlayStation Move will track your hand movement and wrist rotation perfectly to give us the information we need to

[tha_con]

Brunswick doesn't look very exciting right now. HVB looks much better.

[patsu]

I have heard good things about High Velocity Bowling from several people, but they never explain why. What's special about it ?

The Brunswick video could have shown us different in-game bowling moves and compare it with real bowling.

EDIT: I think Sony may have gotten things backwards a little. At this "early" stage (defining new experience/platform), they should focus on new concepts instead of optimization of existing known gameplay (e.g., refine bowling and table tennis games with more precision). The optimization can always come later. People can't tell the difference by reading articles and watching promo videos.

As a result, Sony needs to rely on individual's hands-on to sell Move (Too slow !). OTOH, we can usually identify a new game mechanics with a quick glance. It helps to generate excitement too. ^_^

Hopefully, they have something special up their sleeves. "New" games can require precision too.

[AntShaw]

I haven't read much in regards to the HVB but I assume they are just going to update the current version for Move support or is it a whole new version? I'm not sure what more Move can do for that game that the sixaxis can't? The only thing lacking in the current version is you use an analog button to control spin. I'm pretty sure the sixaxis could detect the wrist motion enough to implement that type of control into the game?

With that said, HVB is hands down the biggest party game we have for the PS3. Made a ton of converts of whom only played Wii Bowling.

[patsu]

Ah, HVB is also a motion controlled bowling game as well.

The SIXAXIS has a 1-axis gyro and a 3-axes accelerometer. The Move motion controller has a 3 axes gyro and a 3 axes accelerometer. The latter also has a pressure sensitive trigger for fine-tuning to make up for the lack of analog stick tweaks. (Assuming) all else being equal, the Brunswick bowling game should be more precise and expressive. But we'll never know without playing it. The developer can certainly mess up their programming along the way, so it's not a guaranteed win either.

The Move controller should also be more comfortable to hold/use.

[Shifty Geezer]

If you're no good at bowling, you probably coulnd't tell the difference either. Or perhaps worse still, you will, in that all your shots which were great in the lesser bowling games and made you feel really good become gutter-balls in this version! :p

Without the momentum of the heavy ball to contend with, it's a far cry from bowling, and I imagine strikes far, far easier to get.

[patsu]

That's true ! I think they may take the same approach as the Table Tennis guys: Have separate modes for experts and casuals.

The experts should be able to adjust for the weight difference better than newbies. Focus tests and measurements against real-world bowling would be interesting.

[patsu]

Don't know where to file this:
http://twitchfilm.net/news/2010/04/cannes-2010-sales-promo-for-gilles-marchands-techno-thriller-black-heaven.php

It's a triller about a virtual world. The premise sounds interesting. Would be great as a test platform for augmented reality (and natural interface) in movies.


Gilles Marchand's techno thriller Black Heaven is one fans of high end science fiction have been waiting for for quite a while. Set partially in a virtual world called Black Hole, the film features extensive CG animation from the same company responsible for recent animated feature Renaissance, the production of which has kept the film in post production for well over a year.

[patsu]

Maximum PC built a multi-touch surface PC using PS Eye:
http://www.maximumpc.com/article/features/maximum_pc_builds_a_multitouch_surface_computer?pa ge=0%2C2

The demo video is on the first page:
http://www.maximumpc.com/article/features/maximum_pc_builds_a_multitouch_surface_computer?pa ge=0%2C0

[patsu]

Here's another motion sensing project using PS Eye:
http://codelaboratories.com/showcase/view/hand_tracking
(A simple hands tracking lab test)

There are more demo videos on the right side.


The product description is here:
http://codelaboratories.com/products/eye/packs/

[Delta9]

Here is a Move video the guy seems impressed with it also has some socom.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mnggr-ycbro&feature=player_embedded

[Shifty Geezer]

It's a Gadget Show clip with Jason. He's decidedly impressed! Not sure about the PSEye mounting system though. ;)

[patsu]

Dr. Mark talks about his view on PS Move:
http://worldwideintertubes.com/2010/04/29/discussing-the-playstation-move-with-sonys-dr-richard-marks/


Tell me about the physical design of the Move controller.

Well it’s different from the Wii, which used a remote control paradigm. With the Move, it’ll be more like you’re holding a physical object that has a handle. It’s designed so that it tapers in the middle then flares back out at the base, kind of like an axe handle. That creates an ergonomic advantage as well, because a smaller hand will naturally grip it at the thinner point while a larger hand will grip it further down, and in both cases that positions the thumb right above the button.

There’s also an analog button on the back that’s called the “T-button” and is used in some games like a trigger, but I prefer to think of it as a squeezer. It has a fairly long throw so you can control something really well just by squeezing, and that makes it feel very natural for grabbing and manipulating objects.

Do you think that a device like the Move has applicability beyond gaming?

Definitely. One of our favorite uses for the Move besides gaming is creating user-generated content. Just as a creation tool, it provides a lot more capability than anything we ever had before. We actually wrote a driver to send the data from the PS3 to a PC so our artists could use it in Maya, which is an animation suite they use to design games. Often in Maya you have to move things around and look at them from different angles and distances, which normally takes expert knowledge to understand the indirect controls. Using the Move, it’s amazing how fast you can operate it. People are surprisingly good at positioning two controllers relative to one another. You can carve, extrude, lathe, grab points in a wire mesh — it all feels very natural.


Awesome only if Sony persue user generated content in a big way, as opposed to isolated, one-off efforts.

I don't quite agree with this though:


What were some of the lessons you learned from your experience developing the EyeToy?

Something that was lost with EyeToy was a sense of accuracy. Once in a while you want that. The EyeToy could only register broad, coarse body movements, and its reliability would vary with the lighting conditions in the room. So the Move has a glowing sphere on the end of it, which the camera can track to within a tenth of a pixel. The PS3 system knows exactly where the PlayStation Move controller is in the room with great accuracy.

One of the mantras of the EyeToy was that there were no buttons. We could have had people using the PlayStation 2 controllers with the games, but instead we chose to just rely upon the person’s physical movement in the room. I think that was a good discipline for us to work within and resulted in some really unique game experiences, but we came to realize that it went too far. It was very difficult to do things like navigating menus. You could only do that by waving your hands repeatedly over menu items to select them, then wave at another message to confirm that was really what you wanted to select. And while it was neat that you could work that way, it wasn’t a great interface. A button is very fast, very reliable, and very abstract — you can map it to anything you want.


There are occasions where waving a hand is more entertaining than having great precision. Besides, it's a tech limitation. Natal should be able to do more accurate gestures more effortlessly.

[patsu]

Sports Champion interview:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/playstation-move-sports-champions-interview


Eurogamer: How would you describe Sports Champions?

Olivier Banal: It's a sports simulation. It replicates real-life sports as well as not-so-real-life sports, like gladiator duels. You act out the sport just as you would do in real-life, and the Move controller tracks your motions. So throwing a frisbee, swinging a bat, throwing a ball, shooting arrows... Things like that.


[They need a better name !]


Eurogamer: How do you achieve that? I've played a lot of Wii games, a lot of what I would call mini-game compilations. Often I've found the mini-games are either too challenging for, say, my mum to play, or they're too simple and just involve waggling, which is no fun for anyone. How do you strike a balance?

Olivier Banal: Replicating a real-life discipline with a very accurate motion controller is a bit of a double-edged sword. It's very good at replicating what you're doing, regardless of whether you're doing it right or wrong.

That's where the different difficulty levels come in. The easier levels will fine-tune what you're doing - for example, in table tennis, to make sure you hit the ball back over the net and on the table. At the other end of the spectrum, you get more control over the ball but you're also more likely to hit the net or hit it wide.

You can adapt the difficulty levels to individual players. So if you're playing table tennis with your mum, you can set the level to easy for her and normal for you, and play against each other like that.


Eurogamer: Table tennis makes a good case in point, as there are lots of table tennis games already out there for the Wii. I'm not sure the motion control aspect makes them worth playing, though - I'd always rather play the Xbox 360 version of Rockstar Table Tennis, for example...

Olivier Banal: Move offers the most accurate simulation you can get. With the combination of the gyrometer, the accelerometer and the light tracking, you basically have motion tracking in a 3D environment. If you turn the bat to a certain angle then the physics engine identifies that, and adapts the trajectory of the ball like in accordance with the physics. So you can put in as much spin as you want and replicate what you'd do in real life.

The challenge for the team right now is to make sure that players get into the game and aren't frustrated after five minutes spent missing the ball. Once they're used to that you can move on to a more realistic setting, one which allows players to have more control and get closer to a realistic experience. That's something I believe we can achieve with Move.

...


The interview looks rather in-depth. No time to get down to it yet. Will come back later. ^_^

[patsu]

Rare is going to talk about Natal in a July Develop Conference keynote:
http://www.develop-conference.com/developconference2010/keynotes_2010.html


The Future IS Controller-Free Games and Entertainment

The growth of physical based gaming has introduced an entirely new audience to our industry and like it or not, it's here to stay. As the technology improves, diversifies and becomes ever more complex designing compelling experiences is a challenge but this is something we should embrace as developers and not fear. But where do we go from here?

In this session George - Creative Director at Rare, will talk candidly about how Rare has created one of the premier launch titles for "Project Natal" and the challenges faced regarding the new design philosophy at the studio, "everything you've learnt over the last 25 years - throw it away!" We also take a brief look at Rare's last foray into the physical play space from yesteryear. We outline our vision for the future of physical based gaming and why as an industry we have only just scratched the surface of the vast array of possibilities now available to us, what this means for developers and for future generations of gamers alike.

[patsu]

Dr. Marks will keynote the "Games for Health Conference" in May:
http://blog.us.playstation.com/2010/04/29/playstation-move-the-mind-body-experience/


The title of my talk is “The Mind-Body Experience of PlayStation Move – Relationships between Gaming, Play, Exercise, and More.” I plan to discuss the development of PlayStation Move, with a focus on what I call “somatic gratification” (I didn’t coin the term, but I think I’m the first to apply it to video games). In short, I’ll be talking about how the physicality of an interface can connect the body and the mind to really enhance an experience. Sometimes, the interface is only a means to an end, but often, the interface becomes an integral part of the experience. I’ll be analyzing the similarities and differences this has for gaming, for play, and for exercise, and why different interface choices may be appropriate for each domain.

I’ll also be talking about the design of PlayStation Move, highlighting why many of the design choices are the way they are. Many of the seemingly arbitrary stylistic choices are not cosmetic; they are actually functionally and ergonomically important. Finally, I’ll share my thoughts about the subtle yet profound differences between a true position-sensing device vs. a motion-sensing device, and describe some of the applications that are enabled as a result of having position information.

[patsu]

Toy Story 3 will have Move mini-games:
http://blog.us.playstation.com/2010/04/30/toy-story-3-the-video-game-revealed-for-ps3/


I’m also excited to let you know that Toy Story 3: The Video Game will be compatible with PlayStation Move. It was cool working with Sony and this new technology to create downloadable mini-games designed specifically for this new motion controller.

[patsu]

Move Party Interview:
http://blog.us.playstation.com/2010/04/30/playstation-move-developer-diary-move-party/
(Video inside)


We’ve been showing the game behind closed doors and conducting lots of user testing. We’ve been really impressed at how quickly people of all ages are captivated by the game as soon as they pick up the PlayStation Move motion controller. The experience is extremely intuitive. There are no special gestures to learn like in some motion control games, you simply interact with the objects as you would in real life. It’s super easy and fun to just pick up the controller and start playing. Move Party is really only possible due to the amazing accuracy, freedom and precision that the PlayStation Move delivers. Cut hair, bash moles, bounce a ball, paint a picture, fly a helicopter, zap some robots and much more.

[patsu]

Natal hands-on with videos:
http://laist.com/2010/04/30/project_natal_first_drunken_impress.php


The second my game started, my earlier misgivings were - temporarily - dispelled. Shockingly, it's actually pretty cool. The motion sensor is surprisingly sensitive, equally response regardless of user height, and able to detect whether 1, or two people are standing in front of the TV. Better still, while it didn't provide the ability to make your onscreen avatar flip the bird, it was able to virtually simulate how bad I am break-dancing.


The demo has some hiccups because the sensitivity is not well-tuned. Other than that, the report is largely positive and enthusiastic, if a wee-bit cautious.

[corduroygt]

Nintendo released black wii bundle today:
Includes wii sports, wii sports resort and motion plus, still at $199.

http://images.dailytech.com/nimage/14415_wii_black.jpg

I think this will put the price pressure on MS and Sony, I still predict natal 360 arcade for $199, it cannot be more than the wii to steal its market. PS3 unfortunately cannot go much lower, so the best case I see there is $299 with move included.

[Arwin]

Is that new for the U.S.? I've seen this package in our mediamarkt for quite a while already, maybe even since the Holidays.

[Shifty Geezer]

I think this will put the price pressure on MS and Sony...Which is embarassing considering how cheap Wii's hardware is!

[tha_con]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQjfhg2WKPQ

I wonder if this is just a calibration issue? Maybe the kids legs are just too low for the system to account for?

Either way, I really hope Microsoft has some great stuff to show for E3, because it's been almost a year and I'm still seeing Ricochet and nothing else.

[Nesh]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQjfhg2WKPQ

I wonder if this is just a calibration issue? Maybe the kids legs are just too low for the system to account for?

Either way, I really hope Microsoft has some great stuff to show for E3, because it's been almost a year and I'm still seeing Ricochet and nothing else.

Heh that was funny. It tried to fit the model's silhouete to the small body of the kid.

I think it becomes an issue for this particular game when there are two players.

The thing is assuming there is just one player it tries to make the player fill the screen accordingly so that he can hit all balls on screen (not too short nor too high).
So if its a kid calibration will "enlarge" it or if it is someone "gugantic" it will "shrink" him. The size of the model is always the same on screen.

Since there are two people of very different proportions, either the camera is confused and reads the adult correctly and cant fit the silhouette correctly on the short guy so that both are displayed on same size. or the capability of the camera is more advanced but calibration was not done correctly.

The response rate seems very good though

[tha_con]

Heh that was funny. It tried to fit the model's silhouete to the small body of the kid.

I think it becomes an issue for this particular game when there are two players.

The thing is assuming there is just one player it tries to make the player fill the screen accordingly so that he can hit all balls on screen (not too short nor too high).
So if its a kid calibration will "enlarge" it or if it is someone "gugantic" it will "shrink" him. The size of the model is always the same on screen.

Since there are two people of very different proportions, either the camera is confused and reads the adult correctly and cant fit the silhouette correctly on the short guy so that both are displayed on same size. or the capability of the camera is more advanced but calibration was not done correctly.

The response rate seems very good though

Response time looked great for something this simple, so I'm very optimistic about that.

Just worried, I can't imagine MS hasn't done focus tests with people of all shapes and sizes in various combinations.

[rabidrabbit]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQjfhg2WKPQ

I wonder if this is just a calibration issue? Maybe the kids legs are just too low for the system to account for?

Either way, I really hope Microsoft has some great stuff to show for E3, because it's been almost a year and I'm still seeing Ricochet and nothing else.
Looks like the kid is doing some breakdancing moves :)
True, the ricochet demo is really getting old, it didn't look good the first time they showed it, and it still doesn't look good or interesting.
Guess they chose it as their no. 1 demo because it is easy to see what Natal is about, but why so many balls that the whole game looks like just mindless flailing.

[Crossbar]

Interesting interview with Shuhei Yoshida (http://www.edge-online.com/magazine/in-control?page=0%2C0).

The software teams have been working with the technology since the beginning of last year. We’ve tried many different technologies, but it was at the beginning of last year that we decided to go with this optical technology. We’ve put many years of R&D into it, from EyeToy to PlayStation Eye, along with the sensors in the controllers, which are more advanced than what we have in Sixaxis.

I wonder what other options they were evaluating in parallel?

Nintendo had smashed TVs at Wii’s launch – how are you guarding against similar issues when Move arrives?
What’s good about the sphere is that it’s very, very robust. It’s much more robust in terms of protection for the controller and people around it because it’s soft. So we don’t need a sleeve.

What sort of resources do you currently have dedicated to Move within SCE?
We have more than 20 teams working on Move.

....

None of the games presented so far feels absolutely novel – is it a case now of presenting the broadly familiar to acquaint the public with Move before presenting more overtly different games?
We are working on variety of games, and it tends to be the case that more familiar concepts progress quicker than novel ones. We have some exciting announcements still to come and hopefully they will help answer your question.

Will you be forging new game types using Move in the way Nintendo has with Wii?
We strive to do so. We have been deeply involved in the development of Move itself, by providing ideas, prototype games and feedback to SCEI and SCEA R&D – Rick Marks’ group who worked on the software system. It is our responsibility to show what Move can do and provide reference to third parties. However, thirdparty developers have been working on Wii games for some time, and it may be the case that ideas they had that could not be achieved on Wii could be accomplished by Move because of our technology and features. If this is the case, then I am sure we will see great ideas coming from thirdparty developers as well.

[liolio]

Looks like the kid is doing some breakdancing moves :)
True, the ricochet demo is really getting old, it didn't look good the first time they showed it, and it still doesn't look good or interesting.
Guess they chose it as their no. 1 demo because it is easy to see what Natal is about, but why so many balls that the whole game looks like just mindless flailing.
It's getting old and still not perfect anyway the kid seems literally absorbed if that any clue MS may be on to something.

[Arwin]

Interesting interview with Shuhei Yoshida (http://www.edge-online.com/magazine/in-control?page=0%2C0).

Thanks!

I also like these comments:

What sort of resources do you currently have dedicated to Move within SCE?
We have more than 20 teams working on Move.

What’s the split of your focus between making Move an effort to appeal to a wider consumer base, and about making traditional games work in a different way?
I would say 50:50.

[Delta9]

Looks like the kid is doing some breakdancing moves :)


Micheal Jackson game coming.:lol:
http://i41.tinypic.com/29ijpi.jpg

[Prophecy2k]

Micheal Jackson game coming.:lol:
http://i41.tinypic.com/29ijpi.jpg

WOW!!!! :shock:

That's just.... well... bad...

I'm becoming less and less convinced that Microsoft will be able to tighten this thing up so that it's accurate with a large enough variation in the persons being tracked.

As much of the "it's still early yet!" claims i hear on internet forums, i'd have thought that they would have the accuracy sorted by now, especially given that the thing will release in probably 6-8 months.

I also echo the sentiment of those who are tired of MS showing this shallow-looking dodgeball game... they really need to show some innovative stuff.

[Nesh]

WOW!!!! :shock:

That's just.... well... bad...

I'm becoming less and less convinced that Microsoft will be able to tighten this thing up so that it's accurate with a large enough variation in the persons being tracked.

As much of the "it's still early yet!" claims i hear on internet forums, i'd have thought that they would have the accuracy sorted by now, especially given that the thing will release in probably 6-8 months.

I also echo the sentiment of those who are tired of MS showing this shallow-looking dodgeball game... they really need to show some innovative stuff.
They are holding the good stuff at E3 ;)
Thats the good strategy if you want to impress when and where it matters the most

[Lucid_Dreamer]

They are holding the good stuff at E3 ;)
Thats the good strategy if you want to impress when and where it matters the most

Set the bar really low, so anything will impress. That IS a decent strategy.

[zed]

As much of the "it's still early yet!" claims i hear on internet forums, i'd have thought that they would have the accuracy sorted by now, especially given that the thing will release in probably 6-8 monthsIts not the accuracy thats most worrying but the fact is theyre still showing the body positions in physically impossible places (if u see some videos), remember "bang there is it" OK you could excuse that since it was the first public showing, teething problems and all that, but to still have these basic issues 6+ months later speaks of incompetent programming, my moneys on it not seeing the light of day this year.

[Nesh]

Set the bar really low, so anything will impress. That IS a decent strategy.

Not exactly what I was thinking. But close. :razz:

[Shifty Geezer]

Its not the accuracy thats most worrying but the fact is theyre still showing the body positions in physically impossible places (if u see some videos), remember "bang there is it" OK you could excuse that since it was the first public showing, teething problems and all that, but to still have these basic issues 6+ months later speaks of incompetent programming, my moneys on it not seeing the light of day this year.
It's definitely disconcerting the amount of problems that become visible. In addition, E3's showing is closed doors from the sound of it (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/no-video-allowed-at-natal-e3-showcase)...


Microsoft has said that it will not allow video or photography at its "technology-free" pre-E3 Project Natal showcase, taking place on the Sunday before the big event.
...
The Sunday night event is separate from Microsoft's E3 show on Monday June 14, and is intended to showcase the universal appeal of Project Natal at the 10,000 capacity Galen Centre in Los Angeles.Why no video? Will they not have a show-floor experience at E3, in which case why deny cameras 2 days earlier?

[patsu]

There are many components in Natal. What we are seeing here is only the skeleton tracking game. There will be games tailored to suit the quirks of the technology. Even if it's lagging, as long as the user is engrossed in the game (because it's fascinating or fun), it doesn't really matter whether third party observe a severe lag.

The developer should be able to implement other forms of tracking (e.g., hand gestures only). These alternate approaches should be faster and more accurate than full body tracking.

[Shifty Geezer]

It's not the lagging that's worrisome; Molyneux reported big improvements I believe. My concern is that the skeleton tracking is prone to errors. eg. Consider the above boy-tracking results applied to any other game. Aiming, movement, actions would all be all over the place! Clearly the boy can enjoy himself with this game and probably laughs at the crazy avatar antics, but it's not portraying the input system as robust and reliable, which any input systems need to be. This problem was an early-days glitch when first shown, but this far on one wonders where the errors are coming from and if they'll be solvable to a good degree or need some hack (desensitising, limiting input rate or resolution or something??). Otherwise would you really trust Natal to track where you're aiming or where you have your virtual racquet if at some point it's going to suddenly twist you around behind your back?

[patsu]

I think for your example above, the gamer will be using the traditional controller. Natal will only be used for auxiliary tasks.

If they are using Natal to control aiming, movement and special actions, then the game will be forgiving enough to accommodate Natal's accuracy -- just like how Nintendo adapted WiiSports to fit Wiimote's lack of gyro.

[rabidrabbit]

Set the bar really low, so anything will impress. That IS a decent strategy.
Hope you're just being sarcastic ;)

It seems the problem with this ricochet game (and probably also other similar games) is that the player needs to play legs and arms apart, otherwise the Natal gets confused and loses track.
See, in the controlled demonstrations (where a MS rep was playing) the player always stands astride, legs and arms apart, but the kid is not, that throws the Natals recognition completely off in the lower and sometimes upper body region.

MS seriously need to polish their smoke and mirrors for E3.

[Shifty Geezer]

I think for your example above, the gamer will be using the traditional controller. Natal will only be used for auxiliary tasks.

If they are using Natal to control aiming, movement and special actions, then the game will be forgiving enough to accommodate Natal's accuracy -- just like how Nintendo adapted WiiSports to fit Wiimote's lack of gyro.Hmmm...give me an example of a Natal game where hands flying behind backs and bodies getting stretched and shrunk and leg placement all over the shop won't be an issue.

[patsu]

Volley ball ? Casual bowling, virtual jogging, deep sea fishing may be possible too.

[zed]

Hmmm...give me an example of a Natal game where hands flying behind backs and bodies getting stretched and shrunk and leg placement all over the shop won't be an issue.
Ill point you to a post I made when natal was first announced + I have repeated multiple times
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1303892&postcount=369

say natal panned out 100% (*)
it will benifit only certain games
.. party
.. fitness
.. ummm help me out

genres it wont help
-FPS or other shooters
-driving
-platform
-fighting (perhaps a limited form of boxing though)
-etc

Like I've said for the umpteenth time those ppl (a huge number of the ppl on this forum, though I believe now theyre starting to see it my way) thinking theyll be playing the majority of games with natal solely are deluded, like I keep repeating its got to be 100% accurate, 99.9% accuracy is not good enuf.
platformer - player jumps or moves left, onscreen character doesnt do this cause natal failed to pick it up + character dies.
driving - player turns their hands right, car goes straight ahead cause natal failed to pick it up, car crashes into a wall
etc
this is a gamebreaker, the player will just say bugger this give me back a working controller again.
With party + fitness games where accuracy is not so important , not having 100% accuracy isnt a gamebreaker

latency is not so important cause the player can expect that

[Arwin]

What Wii motion control has shown the world is that you only need a single game to be successful with it. For the Wii, that was Wii Sports (and similarly for Wii Motion+ it's Wii Sports Resort, basically).

So all that Microsoft needs to focus on, is getting that one game right, and it can be a similarly party-ish game style. From there on, it's all a matter of being able to position the package, including the 360, so that its image doesn't get in the way of sales to families and kids.

The choice that Microsoft faces is whether or not they will market Natal standalone, or whether they will (also) try to get the device into people's homes through the more hardcore people who currently already own a 360. Evidence so far seems to primarily point to the former, and their product seems to suit this.

Same for Sony - first and foremost they basically need their Wii Sports equivalent, and they need it to be good, to cover an important gap in their portfolio versus the Wii.

However, Sony always wants at least to try to make something that's great for everybody. That's the whole philosophy behind the Playstation 3 and its the same behind the Move controller. Of course this has also been partly informed by their experience with the EyeToy. For them, their goal is clearly to develop Nintendo's headway into motion controls and try to perfect it to the point where it can compete with the good old dual analog stick. I personally think that's a pretty good idea - lets not forget that the currently all-popular dual analog stick originated the same way. ;)

[Shifty Geezer]

Volley ball ? Casual bowling, virtual jogging, deep sea fishing may be possible too.I don't follow. You're saying if you reach to knock back a volleyball and Natal flips out and sticks your arms behind your back, that's not a problem? Or if you go to bowl and the skeletal tracking reports to the game engine that you've just flipped upside down and released the ball left instead of forwards? Or maybe a running game where you have to dodge obstacles, only when you duck Natal stretches your avatar 6 foot tall so its head hits the beam you were dodging, that's okay?

Controllers should not report false info or fail to register. We wouldn't accept button controllers that report an X button when an A was pressed, or a move left when we pushed right. So far that's what Natal keeps showing in these demos. MS need to have that fixed. And they may well do, but we're not seeing progress, and their history isn't good. "Lips" would record good singing when the mic was scraped along the carpet. "You're In The Movies" didn't work either. That's two peripherals MS have released with dodgy software driving them. That doesn't bode well for this third endeavour using state-of-the-art, unproven, unestablished tech that so far keeps showing issues.

[Arwin]

I also think patsu's logic is a bit flawed. ;)

But most scenarios (not necessarily Volleyball though!) will be able to 'expect' more specific behaviour than this 'game' (it's basically above all a good test-scenario, as it involves all limbs and quick sudden movement). Most actual implementations should be able to do better than this.

However, I do agree with you that Microsoft still have quite a lot to prove. I also agree that their track record isn't fantastic. But from the overall impression that I've been getting, the technology should be good enough for the audience Microsoft seems to target primarily.

[goonergaz]

It's not the lagging that's worrisome; Molyneux reported big improvements I believe.

oh dear, what's "worrisome" for me is that people still listen to the master of overhype! lol

Like zed, I've said from day 1 that I am very skeptical of the MS claim "no more need for controllers - super accuracy" (etc) and since then we've seen no end of 'downgrades' from taking hardware out of Natal to downgrading the number of players (etc).

I've always thought this is little more than a upgraded eyetoy and I guess at least if I'm wrong I can only be impressed!

[Shifty Geezer]

I've always thought this is little more than a upgraded eyetoy and I guess at least if I'm wrong I can only be impressed!The underlying technology is great, and the principals are sound. It's definitely more than EyeToy in principal and I feel people should be excited for the possibilties. My only question is implementation. Actually add a second question, will developers do anything worthwhile with it even if it works? :p

[liolio]

In regard to the "MWB" moon walk bug :lol: I think that ricochet is also expecting so kind of stance from the player. Every demo made/support by MS last year E3, in I don't remember which tv serie had the demoer standing with legs properly spaced, no crossing legs or whatever. Still the point is that it looks like the kid couldn't care less, the bug is distracting but it doesn't seem to affect the gameplay if one leg is to ouch a ball it will no matter it's the left one doing so instead of the right one.
Another interesting fact is that the kid is able to play pretty close from the tv which is reassuring after all the talk on the matter.

[goonergaz]

The underlying technology is great, and the principals are sound.

so were eyetoys - and that never filled it's potential, hopefully with the added abilities Natal will finally complete the eyetoy aims, however this will still be below the initial promises from MS.

[obonicus]

Still the point is that it looks like the kid couldn't care less, the bug is distracting but it doesn't seem to affect the gameplay if one leg is to ouch a ball it will no matter it's the left one doing so instead of the right one.


That shouldn't be much of a metric, though. Give a kid that young an unplugged controller to a regular game you're playing and he'll still have a blast.

[Shifty Geezer]

I expect the reason most players take a balanced stance is that's the natural play-position if you need to hit and kick balls! Regardless though, the tracking ought to be able to accurately position limbs without them doing the impossible. After all, isn't that the point of all that data collecting MS have done, so that occluded limbs can still be placed with some accuracy? However, the errors are showing impossible results that ought to be stopped on account of being impossible. Why would crossed legs cause a problem when the 3D depth data would clearly present a leg in front, and bone mapping would position the legs as per the stance? You can't humanly get from a position of crossed legs to the legs switched around in a single frame's time, so the tracking should be getting lost. How is the growing/shrinking avatar explained through skeletal mapping issues? If it knows the boy's head and shoulders, it should be able to map the avatar to his stance. Height shouldn't be an issue as the skeleton is the same, and children are a key target here!

[Shifty Geezer]

so were eyetoys - and that never filled it's potential...No, the EyeToy was just a camera. It did what it did okay, but developers didn't really take to it. Depth cameras are a new, promising tech. And MS's intial promises shouldn't really be held against them here. It was infant tech and they gave us their aspirations, but real-world limits have sadly got in the way. You can't predict that early on. So either you shut up and say nothing, Sony's method with its motion tech RnD, or you give your optimistic guesses and then have to whittle back, which is typical from prototypes to final products.

[Prophecy2k]

I just think it'll be really dissappointing if MS fails to deliver with Natal and developers end up deciding it's not reliable enough to do "good enough" skeletal tracking for the games they want to make.

Regardless of whether the thing can still do hand tracking precisely, since i predict (like the other good fellow in this thread) that one of the big potential money-makers for Natal would be sports and fitness games... i.e. games that require solid skeletal tracking, if Natal ends up too gimped to be used with these then i honestly can't see much use for the peripheral in terms of it's application in other game concepts.

Natal as of now is worrying me... and MS' secrecy regarding it's showing at E3 just proves to fuel that worry even more.

I personally wouldn't care if they delayed the thing another year, at least do it right first time, otherwise it may sting them next-gen when all consoles (i expect) will be shooting right outta the gate with some sort of motion control interface.

[liolio]

That shouldn't be much of a metric, though. Give a kid that young an unplugged controller to a regular game you're playing and he'll still have a blast.
:lol:

[goonergaz]

No, the EyeToy was just a camera.

Whilst it was 'just a camera' it didn't stop there being "potential" that was beyond the "realistic ability" - like with Natal, over promised and under-delivered - that's all I was trying to say.

Sony have been showing demos using eyetoy that are similar to what Natal is promising for years...Sony have realised that it's not going to happen any time soon (I assume due to everyones home having too many varying conditions) so have gone for the wand/eye combination which (from what I've seen) gives you the best of both worlds.

[Shifty Geezer]

Sony have been showing demos using eyetoy that are similar to what Natal is promising for years...Sony have realised that it's not going to happen any time soon (I assume due to everyones home having too many varying conditions).Which, theoretically anyhow, isn't a problem with the 3D camera. Heck, MS could ditch the skeletal tracking and just use 2D image matching tech only filtered within a certain depth range! That'd solve all the visual issues of optical methods.

[Arwin]

Sony have been showing demos using eyetoy that are similar to what Natal is promising for years...Sony have realised that it's not going to happen any time soon (I assume due to everyones home having too many varying conditions) so have gone for the wand/eye combination which (from what I've seen) gives you the best of both worlds.

Best of both worlds would be to have Natal's infra-red based depth perception and skeletal intelligence with Sony's Move controllers.

[goonergaz]

Best of both worlds would be to have Natal's infra-red based depth perception and skeletal intelligence with Sony's Move controllers.

true, but the nearest that's actually going to happen (this gen anyway) is the Sony solution is it not?

[patsu]

I don't follow. You're saying if you reach to knock back a volleyball and Natal flips out and sticks your arms behind your back, that's not a problem? Or if you go to bowl and the skeletal tracking reports to the game engine that you've just flipped upside down and released the ball left instead of forwards? Or maybe a running game where you have to dodge obstacles, only when you duck Natal stretches your avatar 6 foot tall so its head hits the beam you were dodging, that's okay?

No... I meant those games do not require absolute precision. They can adjust the speed and "hang-time" of the ball to tune against the lag.


Controllers should not report false info or fail to register. We wouldn't accept button controllers that report an X button when an A was pressed, or a move left when we pushed right. So far that's what Natal keeps showing in these demos. MS need to have that fixed. And they may well do, but we're not seeing progress, and their history isn't good. "Lips" would record good singing when the mic was scraped along the carpet. "You're In The Movies" didn't work either. That's two peripherals MS have released with dodgy software driving them. That doesn't bode well for this third endeavour using state-of-the-art, unproven, unestablished tech that so far keeps showing issues.

I watched the entire video. There is lag but if the user feels connected to the game sufficiently, it may be good enough -- especially if the objective is to exercise. If you look at their faces, the players don't seem to feel frustrated. I suspect it is difficult for a 3rd party to judge the personal experience by watching someone else play. Dr. Marks cited something called “somatic gratification”, it may apply to both Natal and Move.

[patsu]

Something related:
http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2010/05/speech-recognition-isnt-dead/


Robert Fortner’s penned a fascinating post-mortem on speech recognition software.



Android has it, and Google has taken it to other platforms; Apple appears to be very interested in expanding voice search on their phones, and not just simple, one or two word queries. Apps from the very companies Fortner implies are waning (Dragon Dictation, for one) have proven extremely popular (and impressive) on the iPhone. The implicit assumption in the piece is that if desktop speech-to-text is on the wane – and it’s pretty clear that it is – then so follows the entire dream of talking to a computer

...


Is it ?


I tried Voice Control on iPhone this morning and turned it off. Speech recognition is not reliable, but there are some situations where it's applicable (because our hands are tied up). I think the problem with speech recognition is it adds an additional control layer rather than removing it, making the experience cumbersome.

[Shifty Geezer]

I watched the entire video. There is lag...Are we talking about the same thing here? My point isn't the lag, but the way limbs don't follow the player. Lag you can live with, but if you go to hit a ball and find your avatar's arm isn't there hitting as you request, it'll be annoying! These is a very different problem to lag. Similar to EyeToy's lack of motion detection in low-contrast conditions. You can compensate 200ms of lag to move your arm in advance to his a ball, but if the motion doesn't register the lag is the least of your worries.

[patsu]

I assume they apply creative control over the avatar. It is still tracking the player's basic movement (The kid changed his speed at different points in the video). Didn't they cut down the number of control points ? If so, the artist may have added some basic animation to cover the missing points. Best is to wait for bigger (and more !) videos.

e.g., The body flailing demo may eventually turn out to be a different kind of social games. It may be more interesting to share people's dance moves, than achieving the scores (i.e., personal expression vs sports).

[zed]

So hands up how still thinks natal will be able to track individual finger movements? :)

[patsu]

You don't have to track individual fingers for most hand gestures. You also don't have to track the entire body's skeleton and position if you're only interested in hand gestures. It can be a separate/different algorithm altogether.

[Crossbar]

So hands up how still thinks natal will be able to track individual finger movements? :)

...hesitates...puts one finger up in the air.

[Shifty Geezer]

...hesitates...puts one finger up in the air.Sorry but we lack the resolution to register your vote... :p

[ShadowRunner]

Are we talking about the same thing here? My point isn't the lag, but the way limbs don't follow the player. Lag you can live with, but if you go to hit a ball and find your avatar's arm isn't there hitting as you request, it'll be annoying! These is a very different problem to lag. Similar to EyeToy's lack of motion detection in low-contrast conditions. You can compensate 200ms of lag to move your arm in advance to his a ball, but if the motion doesn't register the lag is the least of your worries.

I think arms should be fine, id guess they are a hell of a lot easier to track than legs because they have much more seperation. If you locate the head and from there the torso it should be very easy to tell the arms appart even to the point of treating them as thier own seperate entities, much harder with legs because of there proximity to eachother and thier close points of origin. It is supprising that hey havent programmed it so that if the software isnt sure with sum degree of certainty where the legs are then it just defaults to a natural pose until it can pick them up again, its very unlikely the user will be tying themselves in impossible notts lol.

If the upper body traking works consistantly i think natal can still manage many game ideas, legs are much less important IMO. It would be a shame thou because the lower body tracking is unique to natal, there competitors have shown responsive upper body tracking to the point many natal experiences could be ported in some fashion losing some of its uniqueness.

How much any of this matters for an initial purchase is debatable though. I think where it could be an issue is if it becmes frustrating enough that people are not much interested in buying future titles beyond thier initial purchase. Somewhat like the Eyetoy situation in a way.

[zed]

Sorry but we lack the resolution to register your vote... :p
oh witty, ppl were talking about doing guitar player like stuff with natal, I mean comeon!

A solution which I have mentioned before is for natal to come bundled with some (reflective/brightly colored/emitting) bands that the person sticks around their ankles, wrists, this should greatly help its tracking capabilities.

[patsu]

I mentioned guitar playing before. The issue with that is knowing when and how the fingers interact with a (air) guitar. It's one more step away from detecting individual finger movement.

That's also when I realized buttons/trigger is important. T_T

[patsu]

PS Move on BBC:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/click_online/8649540.stm

Interview with Anton Mikhailov:
http://www.gamexplain.com/article-72-1272999307-playstation-move-xplained-an-interview-with-anton-mikhailov.html


Ok, well that should resolve that issue, at least. I had also heard some discussion that since the EyeToy is only 120 Hz and the Wiimote camera is 12 MHz, that PlayStation Move might not be best suited for picking up the quick motions that you might see in a game like Red Steel, for example.

Cameras aren’t the only things that allow us to do fast motion. The accelerometers and gyros are very important for this as well. Our sensors actually run faster than the camera so that in the event it does miss a motion they can compensate. Since this happens quickly there are no drift issues that you see when you use accelerometers and gyros only.

On the Dualshock 3, the motion tracking was up to about 300 degrees per second while on Move, it’s around 2500. It’s really hard to move faster than that without hurting yourself.

There are also some advancements in our tech. Not all MEMS tech is made the same. They're just chips, and ours have quite a bit of improvement. This means that we can track fast motions as well as slow ones. It’s actually not easy to do both at the same time.


I think at this point, it’d be worth it to go into some of the differences between the Move and it’s most primary competitor, the Wiimote. For the sake of this discussion, when I refer to the Wiimote, I am including Wii MotionPlus as if it were a built-in part of the device.

Really, PlayStation Move and the Wii Remote are fundamentally different devices. The Wii Remote is a relative device, meaning it can tell how far you're going, but not where you end up. This might be a bit confusing because people think “how can I know where I’m going but not where I am?”. Well imagine that you had to walk next door, but with your eyes closed. You might fumble around and roughly know where you’re going but wouldn’t have any clue where you are exactly. The PlayStation Eye is like our eyes -- it lets us really know where we are not just which way we’re headed. With Move, we use the camera for absolute position, and the sensors for absolute angle.



Much better than Peter Dille's precision talk. But still not understandable by the masses.

[Shifty Geezer]

I'm surprised he didn't point out the interviewers source of info is utter nonsense. A 12 million FPS camera?! As written it sounds like the Wiimote camera is running at 12 MHz and I'm sure plenty will be mislead once they've read it.

[goonergaz]

I tried Voice Control on iPhone this morning and turned it off. Speech recognition is not reliable, but there are some situations where it's applicable (because our hands are tied up). I think the problem with speech recognition is it adds an additional control layer rather than removing it, making the experience cumbersome.

Indeed, and when you think how long voice recognition has been around and the fact it still has not been fully realised makes me think even more that the initial Natal promises are at least a generation away.

[dragonelite]

Has this been posted yet sounds like natal
http://techcrunch.com/2010/05/06/omek-interactive-project-natal/

[Shifty Geezer]

Interesting parallel development, which is unsurprising given the development of 3D cameras in Israel. The first vid is kinda useless. The second YouTube one shows lag similar to Natal. You can also see on the silhouette errors in the camera's depth perception. I wonder if Natal has this too? If they're not using time-of-flight, then I suppose occlusion could come into it. The boxing was guesture based, not 1:1. So really, absolutely nothing we haven't seen already! Other than the work of only 2 people apparently.

[Arwin]

I'm surprised he didn't point out the interviewers source of info is utter nonsense. A 12 million FPS camera?! As written it sounds like the Wiimote camera is running at 12 MHz and I'm sure plenty will be mislead once they've read it.

I thought for a moment that this could actually be right, because the wii remote just tracks two sets of LED lights and those probably have a frequency at this rate, but then of course the PS Eye does the exact same thing. So I've been looking on the web and found that the Wii remote contains a 100Hz IR camera made by Pixart (http://www.pixart.com.tw/), with a sensor capable of only 128x96, which is then interpolated 8x to a resolution of 1024x768.

As we all know the PS Eye can do 320x240 at 120, which seems almost exactly right to match HD resolutions if a similar interpolation technique is used. Presumably the software running on SPE should be able to at least match the chips in the WiiMote, and I also assume that the size of the bulb on the Sony Move controller allows for more precision as well.

Patsu's link to the interview with Anton is interesting also, particularly this comment:

On the Dualshock 3, the motion tracking was up to about 300 degrees per second while on Move, it’s around 2500. It’s really hard to move faster than that without hurting yourself.

There are also some advancements in our tech. Not all MEMS tech is made the same. They're just chips, and ours have quite a bit of improvement. This means that we can track fast motions as well as slow ones. It’s actually not easy to do both at the same time.

This wouldn't have meant much to me if I hadn't read one of those excellent 'Iwata asks' articles on the WiiMotion+ add-on. It explains among others why the point about detecting slow and fast motions are not so easy to do both at the same time:

http://us.wii.com/iwata_asks/wiimotionplus/vol1_page2.jsp
So the gyro in the Wii runs in two different modes - one for up to 10km/h and one for movements up to 100km/h. They also discuss how they support up to 1600 degrees per second in the gyro (allows for a comparison with the figure above, they also mention that 300 is the default for instance for video cameras).

Another interesting point is the impact they experienced of temperature change and how they eventually ended up tackling that issue.

[Prophecy2k]

I'm surprised he didn't point out the interviewers source of info is utter nonsense. A 12 million FPS camera?! As written it sounds like the Wiimote camera is running at 12 MHz and I'm sure plenty will be mislead once they've read it.

If the PSEye is 120MHz and the WiiMote 12MHz... doesn't that make the PSEye faster?

Even if the "M" part is wrong and it's 120fps vs. 12fps... surely PSEye is tracking more frames per second right?!?! :-s

[goonergaz]

As we all know the PS Eye can do 320x240 at 120, which seems almost exactly right to match HD resolutions if a similar interpolation technique is used.

Just a wild thought here...Sony said the PS3 camera would be HD, I wonder if during some point in priot to release it was decided to drop the HD resolution so the PSeye could be used for the Move?

[patsu]

I don't know what in Wii is running at 12MHz but Arwin is correct.

The numbers I read from elsewhere are also:
Wii IR camera is 100Hz @ 1024x768 (interpolated).
PSEye is 60Hz @ 640x480 or 120Hz @ 320x240.


I believe the 2500 degree/second figure has been mentioned before. The new info here is the PS Move MEMS can handle slow speed as well as high speed movement (at the same time ?).

[_phil_]

Interpolated from 128x96.

[Shifty Geezer]

If the PSEye is 120MHz and the WiiMote 12MHz... doesn't that make the PSEye faster?

Even if the "M" part is wrong and it's 120fps vs. 12fps... surely PSEye is tracking more frames per second right?!?! :-sBest guess, one was a framerate measure and the other an internal chip clockspeed. The actual video feed rates are 120 vs 100. Or 60 vs 100 if the improved resolution is worth anything to Move. I'm surprised Wii is only 128x96, but on reflection two adjacent intensities should give a pretty exact position. That is, if the LED is between two pixels, those two CCD points will be lit to different intensities relative to which pixel the LED is nearest to. Thus resolution probably isn't too important and PSEye will work at 120 fps.

[obonicus]

Maybe 60fps for augmented reality minigames?

[MfA]

The second YouTube one shows lag similar to Natal. You can also see on the silhouette errors in the camera's depth perception. I wonder if Natal has this too?
If they both use patterned light I would assume they both have this problem. The patterns need to be big enough to resolve, so that limits the resolution near edges.

I really wonder why time of flight has to be so expensive, it seems to me to be a rather trivial variation of CMOS image sensor (you "just" need nanosecond precise timing for the reset and the transfer gate across the entire chip). Shrug, probably a patent issue.

[Alucardx23]

Project Natal Launching Worldwide In Oct 2010
http://www.gamertagradio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13934

[Shifty Geezer]

So E3 is going to have to be a stellar showing, because they'll have only 4 months from then to release, meaning precious little time to make changes. And then Sony's hand will be being pushed if they are looking to launch a little later. It's likethe console laucnhes all over again!

[Arwin]

I'm definitely looking very much forward to this years E3. :)

[dragonelite]

i thought that natal wasn't able to track fingers.
They must be confused or something.

Source is in german but i think this quote tells enough.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=21217805&postcount=3064

[patsu]

It's possible to track individual fingers when the camera zooms into it. I don't think there's any doubt. I posted a video on PSEye tracking individual fingers somewhere in this thread.
[EDIT: http://codelaboratories.com/showcase/view/hand_tracking]

It depends on how you intend to use the data. Very often, you don't need to track individual fingers, and so you don't have to zoom into it. :) You also don't have to calculate the "finger skeleton" if you don't want to.

[Shifty Geezer]

i thought that natal wasn't able to track fingers.Tracking fingers as part of the overall skeleton tracking, that's almost certianly a 'no.' You could move the hands nearer the camera to do finger tracking though.
Source is in german but i think this quote tells enough.Sadly it doesn't have context. What did it track regards finger use? Eyetoy 'tracked the fingers' when you wiggled them over a button, but all it was really registering was changes in pixel values. Natal's camera can do that.

With the specs we've got so far, the likelihood of mapping bones to the fingers is very remote. It's also probably asking too much considering this is first generation hardware for 3D cameras!

[Graham]

Early price for a PS Move controller, $60 CAD. (appears to be the controller on it's own)

http://www.engadget.com/2010/05/11/playstation-move-controller-priced-at-60-in-canada/

It fits with the talk of $100 Controller + PS Eye.
Dangerous game for sony to play, two-move games like boxing will potentially be demanding $160 in accessories. Not insignificant.

[Arwin]

Early price for a PS Move controller, $60 CAD. (appears to be the controller on it's own)

http://www.engadget.com/2010/05/11/playstation-move-controller-priced-at-60-in-canada/

It fits with the talk of $100 Controller + PS Eye.
Dangerous game for sony to play, two-move games like boxing will potentially be demanding $160 in accessories. Not insignificant.

Also says ships 1 September, for what it's worth. Already have the PS Eye, and will definitely be buying two Moves at launch.

[Graham]

:-)

Whatever happens, the 4th quarter of this year will probably be the most insane ever. Move,Natal+slim,Reach,COD,GT5 (? :mrgreen:) etc etc. And we haven't got to E3 yet.

[patsu]

Dangerous game for sony to play, two-move games like boxing will potentially be demanding $160 in accessories. Not insignificant.

The motion controller is $5-10 more than SIXAXIS.

It should be possible to get a cheaper bundle if you buy all of 'em at the same time. The distribution cost can be amortized over the controller(s), PSEye and game. e.g., PSEye retails for $30 or more, but PSEye + Eye of Judgment at launch was $70, $10 above a regular BR game. During promo, it could go down cheaper.

I don't think Sony will offer much discount at first though. Hardware manufacturers have always been very careful/conservative in setting prices (Kutaragi being an exception).

I am curious what combo packages Sony will release.

[egoless]

Project Natal Launching Worldwide In Oct 2010
http://www.gamertagradio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13934

Supposedly that's not true.
http://g4tv.com/attackoftheshow/thefeed/70762/The-Daily-Feed-with-Alison-Haislip-51110.html

[Alucardx23]

It’s not the first time that October has been leaked as the release date.

Natal release date is October - Jonathan Ross

Jonathan Ross may have let slip the true release date for Natal, pinning MS's motion-sensing camera for an October release following his hands-on test yesterday.

As reported earlier (http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=235980), MS released a video of Ross having an early play-around with the new motion tech, which presumably took place yesterday.

Ross tweeted (http://twitter.com/Wossy/status/9500132320) last night: "OK. Before bed. Natal on X Box impressive. Not quite there yet i think but tye have til october and if they get it right...skys the limit."

Whoops! Did MS tell you that during your test, Mr. Ross? Did they forget to tell you not to tell the entire world?

It's not the first time Wossy's leaked Microsoft secrets, of course: last year he Tweeted the first word on Fable III (http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=210295).

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=236014

[eastmen]

The motion controller is $5-10 more than SIXAXIS.

It should be possible to get a cheaper bundle if you buy all of 'em at the same time. The distribution cost can be amortized over the controller(s), PSEye and game. e.g., PSEye retails for $30 or more, but PSEye + Eye of Judgment at launch was $70, $10 above a regular BR game. During promo, it could go down cheaper.

I don't think Sony will offer much discount at first though. Hardware manufacturers have always been very careful/conservative in setting prices (Kutaragi being an exception).

I am curious what combo packages Sony will release.

Sony isn't stupid they will hopefully price them right.

However the real problem is that you only need 1 natal so even if natal is $100 buying just two move controlers + eye toy at currently known prices would put u at $150 vs $100 and natal will let two more people play.

Many wont understand the price diffrence and sony can launch with more compelling software.

[patsu]

What current known prices ? ^_^

[Shifty Geezer]

Supposedly that's not true.
http://g4tv.com/attackoftheshow/thefeed/70762/The-Daily-Feed-with-Alison-Haislip-51110.htmlEven if not October, it's going to be all of a omnth later unless Natal slips. It's reportedly due end of the year for the holiday season, no?

[Shifty Geezer]

What current known prices ? ^_^Known price of a PSEye and two sixaxis/DS3 controllers?

[patsu]

That may not be the bundled price though.

[ShadowRunner]

Sony isn't stupid they will hopefully price them right.

However the real problem is that you only need 1 natal so even if natal is $100 buying just two move controlers + eye toy at currently known prices would put u at $150 vs $100 and natal will let two more people play.

Many wont understand the price diffrence and sony can launch with more compelling software.

Im not sure move and natal will be competing so directly at this level. People will likely gravitate to the experience they prefer out of the two, this is were the direct competition will be as long as the price difference isnt too significant. The price will of course effect the success of each device but more independent from the competition, imo the price will be weighed more against the experience you are being offered, rather than the price of another device.

[temesgen]

That may not be the bundled price though.

Exactly - we don't know the pricing yet. The only thing Sony has said about price so far is it will cost <100 dollars.

[patsu]

Develop article on PS Move:
http://www.develop-online.net/features/882/The-Motion-Picture
(Finally moved beyond "precision" talk)


From a game design perspective, what opportunities has working Move provided to open up the game or genre you’re working with?

Torrens: Really the Move controller lets us interact in loads of different new ways.
[blah... read for yourself ^_^]


EyePet still doesn't seem to have the make-your-own-tank battle game. :(


Wong: With a game like EyePet, Move helped us, in that we wanted to use live video feed in the game to make it feel like EyePet is actually in your living room. The controller in the player’s hands becomes things in the game like a shower, shampoo [bottle] or toy, so that the player can really feel like they really do interact with the pet. Move lets the player feel like everything is actually in their hands. It makes things more realistic and believable.


Showering pet and remote control (obscene) user-created vehicle aimlessly is not fun enough. :( :(

[JB9861]

Seems like a lot to get started after buying a PS3 if you want to play the casual Wii rips in HD with friends. Or a pair of Moves along with a couple nunchuk/DS3s if you want multiplayer for core games.

[Lucid_Dreamer]

Exactly - we don't know the pricing yet. The only thing Sony has said about price so far is it will cost <100 dollars.
And, that's the highest bundle (with a game), correct?

[goonergaz]

EyePet still doesn't seem to have the make-your-own-tank battle game. :(


tell me about it - it's a gutter that Sony won't release the tech demos...maybe we will eventually see something come out...I hope so

[thop]

Microsoft does what they like best. (http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2010/05/13/mtv-networks-to-air-project-natal-premiere-and-microsoft-briefing-at-e3/)

http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/natal_invite.jpg (http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2010/05/13/mtv-networks-to-air-project-natal-premiere-and-microsoft-briefing-at-e3/)

[boommoob1]

Nintendo proved tech doesnt have to be very good/perfect just new as perceived by the masses.

[AzBat]

This announcement comes 5 years & 1 day after Xbox 360 was premiered on MTV. The next generation officially starts now. :roll: :lol:

Cirque du Soleil is an interesting, yet obvious choice. If anybody can show how the body can be used as an instrument, it would be them.

Tommy McClain

[Nesh]

Microsoft does what they like best. (http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2010/05/13/mtv-networks-to-air-project-natal-premiere-and-microsoft-briefing-at-e3/)

http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/natal_invite.jpg (http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2010/05/13/mtv-networks-to-air-project-natal-premiere-and-microsoft-briefing-at-e3/)

Holy fucking shit!!

Thats one grand marketing move!

The Cirque Du Soleil??? Thats the best freaking circus in the entire world!! Their performances are outstanding! Their creativity unmatched. I am really curious to see this.

Wow........wow!

MS really puts some serious money externally to make Natal successful. Thats where I find Sony hard to compete regardless of product quality.

[cakefoo]

As it become more apparent that MS is going to be focusing on full-body games, the problem of living room space becomes more and more real.

[Brad Grenz]

Games can't speak for themselves? Hire a French Circus!

[Shifty Geezer]

That's intriguing, and confusing. Those performers have body skills the rest of us don't have, which means they have very little relevance in a Natal game. I suppose this could show perfect body tracking, that if Natal can correctly map the skeleton to a contortionist, and can easily do you or me!

I really don't know what to expect. It'll be entertaining anyway. :D

[Prophecy2k]

That's intriguing, and confusing. Those performers have body skills the rest of us don't have, which means they have very little relevance in a Natal game. I suppose this could show perfect body tracking, that if Natal can correctly map the skeleton to a contortionist, and can easily do you or me!

I really don't know what to expect. It'll be entertaining anyway. :D

From what we've seen of Natal so far, and how poorly it seems to be doing in tracking full body motion perfectly, i'm thinking that it might have somewhat a "little" trouble trying to do that for a contortionist.

:-D:lol:

[scently]

From what we've seen of Natal so far, and how poorly it seems to be doing in tracking full body motion perfectly, i'm thinking that it might have somewhat a "little" trouble trying to do that for a contortionist.

:-D:lol:

Key point being "from what we have seen".:wink:

[Shifty Geezer]

Yes, there's still room for considerable improvement and for us to be wowed with an updated presentation.

[goonergaz]

sorry if it's old news...September for Move?

http://twitter.com/JasonBradbury/status/13974039565

Nicely a month before LBP2 - altho I wouldn't complain about a Move/LBP2 bundle!

[rabidrabbit]

That's intriguing, and confusing. Those performers have body skills the rest of us don't have, which means they have very little relevance in a Natal game. I suppose this could show perfect body tracking, that if Natal can correctly map the skeleton to a contortionist, and can easily do you or me!

I really don't know what to expect. It'll be entertaining anyway. :D
Um.. how far can the Natal track a person.
I mean, a Circus arena, performers and a Natal camera...
I don't think Natal will actually be in operation for the show, but it'll be one of those that give an impression, a feeling, an artistic expression of the Natal experience.
Well, if there's a mime on stage... ;)

[Shifty Geezer]

Um.. how far can the Natal track a person.
I mean, a Circus arena, performers and a Natal camera...
I don't think Natal will actually be in operation for the show...I know nothing more about it than that picture. I assumed they were getting performers in front of Natal. Otherwise...what's the pont? "Here's some performers, and here's a CE product, and the two are unrelated but we thought we'd put them together for the fun of it." :???:

[Shifty Geezer]

sorry if it's old news...September for Move?That'd be plenty of time to gain momentum prior to Christmas. Not sure how that'd fit with LBP2, and adding Move to LBP. I expect a patch to add Move to LBP for free with some Move levels and tools, and LBP 2 some time later.

[goonergaz]

Current date for LBP2 is 29th October - the anniversary of LBP...busy end of year - what with GT5 too (rumored to use head tracking!)

[patsu]

Cirque Du Soleil fits the theme and provides high entertainment value. I'm guessing they will show much more than body skeleton tracking. Their original announcement has speech recognition and image recognition elements anyway. Using hand gestures a la Minority Report style should be possible.

When it comes to tracking (extreme) human performances like Cirque Du Soleil, I did wonder if the motion controllers are able to keep up with Jackie Chan's or Jet Li's nunchucks and long poles strokes.

EDIT: I was told by a friend that we can do precise remote surgery with motion control devices today too (when it's too expensive or time consuming to fly the specialist out).

The Cirque Du Soleil crew should be able to demonstrate Natal's 3D body tracking with "impossible" body postures. Come to think of it, they may be able to do a show getting people to perform or express themselves via the Natal Avatars. So the lag doesn't really matter since the performers would have choreographed their way out of it.

[patsu]

Toy Story 3 dev interview:
http://blog.us.playstation.com/2010/05/13/toy-story-3-ps3-hands-on-with-zurg-playstation-move-update/


Zurg will also tie into the game’s PlayStation Move support, which will be available as a downloadable mini-games later in this fall after the game’s release in June. In one mini-game, Zurg will be able to shoot at targets from a first-person perspective using PlayStation Move to aim and fire. Details are still early


Nah... leave the mini-games to PSN. Do a proper natural interface extension for Toy Story 3, like allowing me and my son to custom make a toy to help the heroes out. :(

[obonicus]

I know nothing more about it than that picture. I assumed they were getting performers in front of Natal. Otherwise...what's the pont? "Here's some performers, and here's a CE product, and the two are unrelated but we thought we'd put them together for the fun of it." :???:

The idea of E3 as a spectacle?

[MrFloopy]

I'm sorry, but where did we get the information that the circus performers were going to be doing anything other than what they normally do, which is put on a show.

There is certainly nothing in that picture that suggests they will doing anything other than a normal performance as part of a launch show spectacular, which is hardly newsworthy or even new.

[Alucardx23]

I'm sorry, but where did we get the information that the circus performers were going to be doing anything other than what they normally do, which is put on a show.

There is certainly nothing in that picture that suggests they will doing anything other than a normal performance as part of a launch show spectacular, which is hardly newsworthy or even new.

Well this might be a preview of things to come. :grin:
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs521.snc3/29659_421826706022_16547831022_5940738_4714468_n.j pg

More shots.
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?id=16547831022&aid=220704&s=20&hash=35b53a9ba15ed4b5269938435c1141c7

[patsu]

I think it's because the article says "mysterious performance by Cirque Du Soleil". If it's merely a sideshow, then it reminds me of a dotcom boom event (e.g., IBM ushered the river dance troop on-stage and into their booth to launch something).

Well this might be a preview of things to come. :grin:
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs521.snc3/29659_421826706022_16547831022_5940738_4714468_n.j pg


How does he aim ?
I see injuries, lawsuits, and... dead people.

Seriously, I think a good Natal Yoga game performed by a Soleil girl would suffice.

[Shifty Geezer]

I'm sorry, but where did we get the information that the circus performers were going to be doing anything other than what they normally do, which is put on a show.

There is certainly nothing in that picture that suggests they will doing anything other than a normal performance as part of a launch show spectacular, which is hardly newsworthy or even new.I do believe you're right. Toyota Yaris doesn't make family movies, but they do bring us the family matinees on channel 5 (or whatever it is). This is probably just a crowd puller to get people to arrive at the same place MS will be holding Natal demos/talks.

[Cyan]

Blizzard developers are looking into the possibility of bringing Starcraft 2 to consoles taking into account the possibilities of the new controls. In fact Sony demoed the PS Move playing Starcraft at the GDC so there might be a connection there between this news and that demo time ago.

I've never played Starcraft, actually and I think I will never get good playing it, but this could open up a whole new possibility for bringing Diablo 3 to consoles too. I played Diablo 2 back in the day and it's a classic.

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=246052?cid=OTC-RSS&attr=CVG-News-RSS

Starcraft 2 on console 'a possibility', says Blizzard... but no plans yet. PS3 or 360 release is 'not on our radar right now', says lead designer

The lead designer of Starcraft 2 has told CVG that Blizzard may take the game to console in future.

Chris Sigaty said that the move wouldn't happen anytime soon - but it was something that the developer was interested in exploring.

"Console is not on the radar for us right now, but there have been a lot of interesting moves in that direction - taking RTS to consoles - and there's been some pretty cool things on the control side," he told CVG.

"I still think that at least from our perspective it feels like the mouse and keyboard just lends itself to this style - but you know we're getting closer and closer all the time. So when we see that optimum moment I think it's certainly possible that we'll explore that junction as well. It's just not on the radar right now."

Sony previously demo'd the power of PS3 Move by controlling a game of Starcraft at GDC.

Blizzard this month confirmed Starcraft's release date as July 27.

[_phil_]

I have good sources that neither sony nor MS really want Blizard on their console(and for sound reasons,IMO),so i bet it'll never happen.

Sony demoed the PS Move playing Starcraft at the GDC
that's a bit a stretch...

[upnorthsox]

I have good sources that neither sony nor MS really want Blizard on their console(and for sound reasons,IMO),so i bet it'll never happen.


that's a bit a stretch...

What are the sounds reasoms? Just curious.

[dragonelite]

Blizzard developers are looking into the possibility of bringing Starcraft 2 to consoles taking into account the possibilities of the new controls. In fact Sony demoed the PS Move playing Starcraft at the GDC so there might be a connection there between this news and that demo time ago.

I've never played Starcraft, actually and I think I will never get good playing it, but this could open up a whole new possibility for bringing Diablo 3 to consoles too. I played Diablo 2 back in the day and it's a classic.

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=246052?cid=OTC-RSS&attr=CVG-News-RSS

On a other forum we were having a talk about how natal could work with shooters.

But i said natal isn't made to replace shooters but to maybe introduce new genres that wont really work with a normal controller.

I came up with this control scheme for a rts game.
to lazy to retype it so im gonna copy past it.

I suppose natal rts control scheme could be like this.

Zooming in & out
*move both hand forward maybe hold hand in special position like a knuckle or something else to not confuse natal. You know like pulling the screen to you or pushing it away.

camera rotation
*Move hand like you would steer a car only with one hand.

left mouse click
*Tapping motion with 2 fingers for increase accuracy two finger are easier to track then one(index and middle finger for example)

Selection field
*With pairs of finger moving diagonal from each other.
You know like you would zoom in with a picture on a iphone.

Assigning groups
*Just have like x-amount of units tell natal to make them group 1,2,3 etc. voice recognition ftw

Mini map zoom
*just double tap on minimap.
tap where you want to go on the mini map camera moves to that part of the mini map.

select same kind of units on screen and upgrade units.
*Make use of a selection wheel to access it you just tap on unit to select without moving hand forward or backward to much move you hand horizontal to your right then move over the wheel to select upgrades and same unit selection.

I think i have just called up most basic RTS function im sure the guys working with natal can think of a more natural rts natal control scheme.

[patsu]

Heh, TV Superstar is similar to what I just said above:
http://blog.us.playstation.com/2010/05/14/playstation-move-developer-diary-tv-superstars/


At the core of the game is the theme that you, the players, are taking an action-packed journey through the crazy world of TV shows with a virtual “you” that’s created using the PlayStation Eye. Seeing yourself appear within the game is guaranteed to make you smile. I know the development team certainly enjoyed playing and testing the game. It’s been a crazy game to work on and we’ve had a lot of laughs in the process.


I am thinking along the line of American Idol, British Got Talent rather than a fake TV game show though.

[Shifty Geezer]

I was wondering about the technical limitations of Natal the other day, based on discussion here about tracking fast movements. A 60 Hz capture isn't going to be too accurate for quick jabs and the like, I thought, regards the position of limbs at sampling time. But then it occured to me now we know they are using an optical method and not TOF, we have another issue to contend with - 'shutter speed'. If the shutter speed is low, the sampling patterns will experience blurring which could affect depth perception. I wonder if this is one of the issues with Natal's funny moments, that the skeleton mapping software is receiving poor-quality data and can't make a good judgement?

[Shifty Geezer]

Heh, TV Superstar is similar to what I just said above:
http://blog.us.playstation.com/2010/05/14/playstation-move-developer-diary-tv-superstars/
Seems a well-timed product.

[Graham]

I'm sorry, but where did we get the information that the circus performers were going to be doing anything other than what they normally do, which is put on a show.

There is certainly nothing in that picture that suggests they will doing anything other than a normal performance as part of a launch show spectacular, which is hardly newsworthy or even new.

Yeah. Their inclusion suggests to me that Microsoft are pushing this to get as much non-game media coverage as possible. There is very little (any?) precedent for main stream media to cover E3 events.

I've read elsewhere they are also banning any recording equipment from the show. Their suggestion being there is an exclusivity deal in place for the rights to air the presentation. (I also think it'd look bad if 75% of the audience was buried deep in the laptops :mrgreen:).

Do they still have a normal E3 conference the next day?

[Shifty Geezer]

I've read elsewhere they are also banning any recording equipment from the show.So this is the same event as the one described here (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/no-video-allowed-at-natal-e3-showcase).

"The Sunday night event is separate from Microsoft's E3 show on Monday June 14, and is intended to showcase the universal appeal (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/microsoft-plans-natal-blitz-at-e3) of Project Natal at the 10,000 capacity Galen Centre in Los Angeles. "

[_phil_]

What are the sounds reasoms? Just curious.

People that play blizzard games don't play nor buy any other games.
They're mostly monomaniac demographics.
Before you ask , yes , that was expressed by high level representatives.

[Shifty Geezer]

That wouldn't be a problem if the console company got a reasonable cut of the monthly fee, but that'd be quite hard to negotiate I imagine. It should be new blood, as existing PC MMORPGers don't buy a console as all they play is WOW. That said, would existing console owners really want to play WOW? If so, surely they would be already.

[Delta9]

Some pricing on Natal.

three Swedish retail sites are all listing the device for 1,499 SEK, which works out to just under a whopping $200.
http://kotaku.com/5540223/swedish-retailers-spill-project-natal-price-and-its-expensive

[patsu]

Yuro folks always get slapped with higher price. Will have to see what the bundled software and services include.

I suspect MS and Sony will do a "if you subscribe with us, you can get the hardware cheaper or free" deal later on.
... or at launch ?

[obonicus]

Just for comparison sake, could anyone list the price for a 360/PS3/Wii in SEK?

Edit: Seems that for a 360 Elite it's ~2299SEK?

[thop]

This could be a bundle price with the 360 Slim.

[LightHeaven]

Yeah. Their inclusion suggests to me that Microsoft are pushing this to get as much non-game media coverage as possible. There is very little (any?) precedent for main stream media to cover E3 events.

I've read elsewhere they are also banning any recording equipment from the show. Their suggestion being there is an exclusivity deal in place for the rights to air the presentation. (I also think it'd look bad if 75% of the audience was buried deep in the laptops :mrgreen:).

Do they still have a normal E3 conference the next day?
Yeah, Cirque du solei presentation will be recorded on 13th, the next day Mtv and Spike Tv will air the regular press conference, and only on the 15th the same day as Nintendo and Sony's shows, they will air the natal presentation, probably showing more of the titles announced during the press con.

[Crossbar]

Just for comparison sake, could anyone list the price for a 360/PS3/Wii in SEK?

Edit: Seems that for a 360 Elite it's ~2299SEK?

Online prices, new units.

The cheapest 360 Elite in stock is 2190 SEK (http://www.prisjakt.nu/produkt.php?p=199896)

The cheapest PS3 in stock is 2777 SEK (http://www.prisjakt.nu/produkt.php?p=472652).

The cheapest Wii in stock is 1777 SEK. (http://www.prisjakt.nu/produkt.php?p=48126)

Here (http://www.prisjakt.nu/produkt.php?p=552582)you can see all current online sellers listing Natal for pre-order and indeed the expected price seems to be 1499 SEK.

The expected price of Playstation Move seems to be 899 SEK (http://www.prisjakt.nu/produkt.php?p=565861)

I hardly believe those prices of Natal and Move can be sustained.

Michael Pachter said in an interview that Microsoft told him last E3 that Natal was to be packed with every 360 sold, then selling the camera separately at a price close to the price of a Arcade unit is just absurd. Sony and MS need to cut 30% off those prices to start moving units.

[ShadowRunner]

If that price is indeed correct id expect it to translate into around $150 in US. How often are these early reatailer pricings correct and not random guesses though, if its anything like game release dates id take it with a huge pinch of salt.

[Prophecy2k]

If that price is indeed correct id expect it to translate into around $150 in US. How often are these early reatailer pricings correct and not random guesses though, if its anything like game release dates id take it with a huge pinch of salt.

If i'm not mistaken i think the early retailer prices on the PSPGo were not far off...

I may be mistaken though...

[Crossbar]

If i'm not mistaken i think the early retailer prices on the PSPGo were not far off...

I may be mistaken though...

I was about to post this.

One of these sites which I follow regulary had a pre-order price of the PSP Go at 2990 SEK, which I found ridiculous at the time, it didn´t drop until after launch and still cost 2695 SEK at their site. The PS3 is at 2945 SEK at the same shop. Needless to say the PSP Go is not moving many units.

[patsu]

Weird, I see it as a positive sign. It may mean they did a focus test and found that consumers will bite despite the price (i.e., there is real value and innovation in the package). They may not be able to make as many as they like at first. Once the momentum is created, the rest will fall in place.

At this moment, without more info, I still think that the leaked price may not reflect what we are getting in the States (May adjust later when Natal is launched).

[patsu]

Kung Fu Live hands-on impressions:
http://www.joystiq.com/2010/05/17/hands-on-playstation-eyes-kung-fu-live/

It's a PSEye game.


It's clear that the technology powering Kung-Fu Live is far more powerful than what we've seen in the PS2 generation. The system is able to accurately remove the background in real-time -- and is intelligent enough to know when new players jump in or out. Another aspect that benefits Kung-Fu Live: personality. The game is story-driven, told through comic panels in which you can feature. At the start of each level the game will suggest a pose for you to attempt, after which the camera will take a picture and inject you into a comic book scene. Seeing myself roundhouse kick three goons in a generated comic book strip was definitely amusing. (Being able to share these photos online seems like an ideal way to use the game's built-in Facebook functionality, as well.)



There's no problem with the responsiveness. The game registered every kick and every punch I threw at the virtual bad guys, and I really enjoyed using the various powers. Jumping up and waving my arms to the side, for example, made my avatar vault over enemies. Holding my arms at a 90-degree angle made me shoot lightning. Best of all, holding both arms up in the air slowed down time, allowing me to get in some ninja-fast kicks and punches.



However, this doesn't negate the fact that I'm staring at the TV and punching and kicking the air. Because of the 2D orientation of the game, you'll be facing forward, but moving side to side, which is simply not as intuitive as facing the screen and moving in the same direction.


.. plus the same old "tiresome" argument.

[Shifty Geezer]

PSN price of under $15?! It sounds well worth it as a family-friendly Wii-esque active title.

[JB9861]

I thought the Kung Fu Live snippets were impressions of a Natal game at first.

I'm not sure I agree with $150 is absurd. Really can only be said in retrospect after MS plays their hand with Natal next month. Consumers may take that, but it depends.

[AzBat]

Seeing some Qs this morning-retailers are not yet aware of pricing details for Project Natal & pre-order pricing is pure speculation

One would hope so.

Tommy McClain

[patsu]

What about the PS Move retail price earlier on ? :D

[AzBat]

What about the PS Move retail price earlier on ? :D

Never said I was trying to sell the PS Move. ;)

Tommy McClain

[patsu]

Ha ha, who said you're trying to sell PS Move ?

Does Gamestop get early info about hardware pricing ?

[AzBat]

Ha ha, who said you're trying to sell PS Move ?

My speculation wasn't from a potential position of authority like where this Natal news came from. ;)

Does Gamestop get early info about hardware pricing ?

One would think that anybody selling products would need early info in order to plan ahead. That's what the whole E3 conference was positioned for: negotiating business commitments for the retail space in the next year. I'm sure that in the US that GameStop is probably in the top 3 vendors who would have that info.

Tommy McClain

[patsu]

One would think that anybody selling products would need early info in order to plan ahead. That's what the whole E3 conference was positioned for: negotiating business commitments for the retail space in the next year. I'm sure that in the US that GameStop is probably in the top 3 vendors who would have that info.

Assuming the launch is September/October timeframe, how long a lead time does the retailer need to place orders ?

[AzBat]

Assuming the launch is September/October timeframe, how long a lead time does the retailer need to place orders ?

You should know it's more than that. There's training, marketing materials, readying inventories, etc. Pricing is only a small portion of the details that retailers will get out of their discussion with Microsoft or whoever will be selling them goods. BTW, just getting newspaper sale ads ready takes a long time. We've seen sale ads leaked 4 weeks before they went on sale. You can be sure they got the necessary data for those weeks before that.

Tommy McClain

[patsu]

It's likely that major retailers already have the price then ? at least the price they buy from the brand owners.

http://www.joystiq.com/2010/05/17/capcom-president-on-e3-2010-new-motion-controllers/


Speaking to the Financial Times (registration required) Capcom president Haruhiro Tsujimoto declared that the success of Microsoft and Sony's upcoming Natal and Move motion controllers depends on sound planning. "If there isn't a strong business model message from the platform holders about how they will develop [motion controllers] with users," said Tsujimoto, "then I don't think it will go well." In other words, Tsujimoto places the onus of success on the manufacturers of the motion controllers, and not necessarily on the games that will be created for them.

[patsu]

A Gaffer made an animated GIF of his Kung Fu Live game here:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=21325989&postcount=62

Looks like silly fun. Children will love it and kick the TV accidentally. XD

[patsu]

http://www.ctadigital.com/item.asp?item=2819


Give your Wii Fit exercise routines some cardiovascular rowing action with the Rowing machine for Wii. This rowing machine is a basic, non-electric apparatus that’s very similar to a rowing machine you would find at the gym. Just connect your Wii Remote into the cradle on the pull bar and secure your feet on the foot pedals with the Velcro straps and you’re set! For more resistance while rowing, adjust the resistance level by turning the tension knob located on the side of the machine. With the rowing machine you’ll be performing cardiovascular and aerobic exercises with your Wii at home just like you would at your at the gym, but with out the expensive memberships.


b6QaxPU9qBI

[dragonelite]

http://www.ctadigital.com/item.asp?item=2819

*video*


Don't know i hate those stupid fitness gimmick Nintendo has going on.
My own fitness equipment is probably much cheaper and has way better results then a Wii plus all the peripherals..Barbell and plates for life + cheap made wooden power rack:roll:

/rant

Still a good start for people to start moving their ass.:wink:

[patsu]

I believe that piece of equipment is from a third party, not Nintendo.

It can be interesting if they add Vitality Sensor support.

[dragonelite]

I believe that piece of equipment is from a third party, not Nintendo.

Still the balance board is just as worse.
If people want to loose weight go for a 45 min walk each day instead of spending money on a balance board gimmick.

Want to loose weight fast eat no carbs and drink a shit load of water piss it all out till your happy with the scale and see the weight come back up.
Just business practice i think exploiting the stupidity of the masses who are to lazy to read up on this stuff on the internet how to do it safe and good.

/second rant, im now gonna stop bitching about balance board and not further desecrate this topic with my complains..:wink:

on topic come on sony and microsoft okey mostly ubisoft show me some move and natal controlled R.U.S.E the game got delayed so who knows, it was demonstrated last E3 as a game for the microsoft touch table.

[patsu]

Ha ha, I think it's just to stay fit or relax. Not necessarily to lose weight.

[MrFloopy]

Why is the "Rowing" machine showing a Kayak? they are mortal enemies of each other. And besides that looks to be the worst rowing / kayak machine ever invented. You'd probably get better exercise from a bout of constipation.

[Rolf N]

But it's non-electric! That's a good thing, right? It may even be a non-machine :???:

[Alucardx23]

Some nice Natal comments from a Fallout 3 dev.

"Seeing it in action, I was totally blown away by it," he said.

"It seems wasted on games, really. Microsoft should open the NATAL API up like Apple does with the iphone/ipad. Let anyone make a NATAL "app." I bet someone makes a killer app that has nothing to do with gaming."

http://www.videogamer.com/news/fallout_3_dev_natal_wasted_on_games.html

[Shifty Geezer]

Is it not going to be available to XNA developers? I'd have thought the libs would be available for the XB360/XNA indie scene. I don't see why they wouldn't be.

[Arwin]

Is it not going to be available to XNA developers? I'd have thought the libs would be available for the XB360/XNA indie scene. I don't see why they wouldn't be.

I'm hoping for that too. Could be great. And there should probably also be a PC driver? It could definitely help them versus Move and Motion+

[dragonelite]

I'm hoping for that too. Could be great. And there should probably also be a PC driver? It could definitely help them versus Move and Motion+

Didn't bill gates already confirmed they want to use natal for windows too.

[Arwin]

Didn't bill gates already confirmed they want to use natal for windows too.

Yes, that's why I said "should". I definitely think it would be a good idea, though I keep a healthy bit of skepticism. There have been too many good ideas not implemented properly or at all. :wink:

[dragonelite]

Yes, that's why I said "should". I definitely think it would be a good idea, though I keep a healthy bit of skepticism. There have been too many good ideas not implemented properly or at all. :wink:


Haha okey, yeah i can already see Japanese devs go crazy with xna and natal.

Sorry if i insulted someone.:roll:

[patsu]

New Wiimote:
http://www.engadget.com/2010/05/20/nintendo-wiimote-rvl-036-mysteriously-clears-the-fcc/


We can't say for sure what's new here but that wireframe outline is most definitely a Wiimote. The Nintendo-branded Bluetooth device just passed through the FCC courtesy of Hon Hai Precision, aka Foxconn. There's very little in the way of detail here other than a new RVL-036 model number reminiscent of the console's "revolution" roots. Perhaps the new Wiimote finally integrates the MotionPlus add-on?

[joker454]

Haha okey, yeah i can already see Japanese devs go crazy with xna and natal.

They have those 'girlfriend' games that seem to be popular in Japan, Natal can take that to a whole new level. Although that type of game with that level of interaction I think might freak out people in North America.

[Gradthrawn]

They have those 'girlfriend' games that seem to be popular in Japan, Natal can take that to a whole new level. Although that type of game with that level of interaction I think might freak out people in North America.

Too late (http://kotaku.com/5534912/its-kinda-like-project-natal-but-with-virtual-skirt-lifting)! (NSFW)

[joker454]

Too late (http://kotaku.com/5534912/its-kinda-like-project-natal-but-with-virtual-skirt-lifting)! (NSFW)

Wow, and I was half joking haha. I guess that explains the renewed programmer interest in fur shaders.

[dragonelite]

Too late (http://kotaku.com/5534912/its-kinda-like-project-natal-but-with-virtual-skirt-lifting)! (NSFW)

Haha lol i just can't wrap my head around such a game. It doesn't make any sense to me and im part japanese. Different folks different strokes or something like that.:roll:

[patsu]

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/bethesda-dev-ms-should-open-up-natal-api


Bethesda developer Ashley Cheng has suggested that Microsoft opens the Natal API for anyone to use and said that doing so could result in a "killer app that has nothing to do with gaming" being created.

Speaking on his blog, the Fallout 3 production director said that he had been blown away when he first saw Natal, but that the technology seemed wasted on games.

[patsu]

Not really motion sensing games, but I believe educational titles will be one of the key areas to attract casuals:
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/majority-of-schools-think-games-consoles-aid-education


Research conducted by the British Educational Suppliers Association (BESA) has found that the majority of schools think that access to games consoles is beneficial to primary children's education.

In a survey of 406 primary schools carried out to determine attitudes to technologies such as games consoles, phones and computers, it was found that three quarters of teachers thought that home access to educational games consoles such as the Nintendo DS could be helpful to a child's educational development.

...

[patsu]

Some Move info in Rob Dyer's interview:
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/4709/the_sony_situation_sceas_rob_.php

On motion-sensing shovelware...


Are you worried that with Move, games are just going to be ports across all of the 3D motion platforms? The Wii is full of shovelware. We all recognize that.

RD: Yes. And I think we can do a lot about that. Now, are there going to be things like that? Sure. We'll do everything we can, whether it's up-res, add trophies, and do things and make it network-only so you don't see it on a disc, but at the same time, we don't have to approve it if we don't want to go down that path.

The other thing you also see is less and less of that shovelware on the Wii, because people realize it costs money, they're not getting placement at retail. Even at a $19 or $9.99 price point, it doesn't sell. Why do I want to chase it on this category as well? We're not getting such a huge amount of concept submissions that we look at this and say, "You know what? We've got big problems." That's not been the issue.

I think people have gone back very conservatively at the beginning to say, "Okay. What's going to work on this?" They're taking lessons away, but also understanding, "Hey, you know what? Sony's going to go after this [motion control] for hardcore as well as the casual. Let's see what we can try and do, and let's see what's going to work for each one of these consumer groups."


On Wii to PS3 ports:


I would assume that people are coming with games for Move which lead on Wii. They want to get them on your platform. Is there a problem?

RD: If it's day and date. If it's day and date, we'll work with them on it. If it's a port, then we'll move it a step, to the network. Unless it's something that they've done an incredible amount of adjusting... We want to be a one-to-one experience.

The Wii doesn't have a camera. We've got a camera. Use that camera, implement that in there. A lot of these guys don't want to. They just want to use the accelerometer and say, well... No. Not gonna happen. It doesn't work that way. Put the camera in there, make it work with that, get your trophies, up-res is, put some more content in, come on down.

[dragonelite]

Not really motion sensing games, but I believe educational titles will be one of the key areas to attract casuals:
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/majority-of-schools-think-games-consoles-aid-education

On a other forum some post from fall out 3 dev was posted.
And a user suggested that a natal app for google earth would be cool.
Like a real life globe.

[Alucardx23]

This could also be a confirmation of Natal support for PC.

Fable 3 Confirmed for PC
http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3179428

Molyneux announces Natal support for Fable 3
“Fable 3 will have Natal support. Is that an announcement? #molyneux”
http://www.vg247.com/2009/10/21/molyneux-announces-natal-support-for-fable-3/

[Shifty Geezer]

Some Move info in Rob Dyer's interview:
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/4709/the_sony_situation_sceas_rob_.php

On motion-sensing shovelware...

Are you worried that with Move, games are just going to be ports across all of the 3D motion platforms? The Wii is full of shovelware. We all recognize that.

RD: Yes...but at the same time, we don't have to approve it if we don't want to go down that path.Like PS1 and 2 were kept clear of shovelware? Maybe off PSN to stop it getting swamped, but I'm sure Sony will let publishers release whatever titles on PS3 as long as they get royalties. Hell, their bank balance needs shovelware!

[patsu]

They got the Japanese devs to add more content for PS3 when the developers ported from Xbox 360 (e.g., Ninja Gaiden, Eternal Sonata). I think only developers who couldn't get their specs up (e.g., Bioshock) were spared.

If it's porting from Wii, it is likely that they can enforce the former approach. Sony is interested to get people to upgrade from Wii. At the same time, I suspect Nintendo has some tricks up their sleeves to differentiate more from PS3 + Move.

[Crossbar]

Some Move info in Rob Dyer's interview:
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/4709/the_sony_situation_sceas_rob_.php


Thanks! that was a really interesting interview about a lot of stuff.

Concerning Move I also found this interesting.

You unveiled PlayStation Move during GDC. Clearly, as with anything, that's been in R&D for a long time. When did you start talking to people about it?

RD: We started talking about it Q4 of last year. Calendar Q4. Early calendar Q4. So, October timeframe.

We've seen the Natal. We saw that tech. We passed on it. We knew what we wanted our tech to be once we settled on that. Coming out of summer, going into fall, we said, and once it was finalized, we were able to look at this and say, "Okay. Let's get it out to third parties."

This goes to the essence of my job right now. I am in a battle for resources. My entire job is convincing a third party publisher, EA and Activision, whoever, where you put your resources. Are you putting your resources against a Natal title, a Move title? Are you putting it against PSP? Are you putting it against 3DS? Where are you putting your resources? That's what I spend my time on.

What we used to be able to do at PS2 and say, "Hey, we got this great idea. Support us." Which they did. You can't do that anymore. You have to be able to go in there with a very fleshed out business model, a very fleshed out campaign.

So, when we first started that [process with Move], we didn't have that at that time. Went through, saw what the questions were right after the new year, went out again, revisited the top 15 publishers and some key independent developers, showed them what retail reaction had been.

That presentation you saw at GDC we showed the previous month all the third parties. They saw that. They saw what was happening. They had a chance to witness the games being played. They saw a lot of the same stuff that you guys saw. So it was no more of that, "Okay. It's pie in the sky." It's real.

So, going into GDC, I had a very good sense of who was supporting us, what was going to be there initially. And since then, I've now got a solid 12 month window of who's doing what.

One of the things that's come back is that third parties haven't been talking to retail because they're just now getting to a point where they can show stuff. So, you're going to see stuff at the floor at E3 that hasn't been talked about, that hasn't been announced, that we haven't talked about, that we haven't announced because the third parties haven't.

So, they're going to be there doing this stuff, and they'll be showing it to retailers for the first time because they've just now, they're going to be at that six-month point, and they're going to have something that's going to make a very big impact.

So, I'm walking into Move feeling pretty damn good about it, given how quickly people are [adjusting]. Now, if that tech was harder or if it took longer, I think people might walk away from E3 a little disappointed not being able to see stuff. I'm not going to get that sense.


E3 will be interesting this year for many reasons.

When it comes to Move, it's said to be easy to implement. I've heard this from multiple Sony executives. But getting people to build up ground-up titles isn't so much about tech. It's about inspiration. What is your goal when you talk to third parties? Is it to get them to implement Move into as many of their games as possible? Or is it about getting them to do ground up stuff?

RD: So, I spent some time reading the interview you did with Shu [Yoshida], and I have a very similar mindset that Shu has. There are certain games and certain genres that are great for motion gaming. I think the biggest problem that third parties have had with the Wii is that everybody had to implement everything with the Wii-mote, and a lot of games were never meant to have that kind of physical [interface]. It was supposed to be a D-pad only type of experience.


There are going to be some categories that are going to be absolutely spectacular with the Move. There are going to be some categories that are going to be very good with Natal.

Now, the big difference with the Move and the Natal, if you're going to do it with Natal, you're going to do it exclusive with Microsoft. That's not going to be the case for the Move. You have a code base that works across all three platforms.

How do you build that up and how you implement it into your game? Do I think you're going to see [inappropriate Move implementations]? Absolutely.

Our challenge here is to make sure you're doing it with the right games and the right genres, and that's where we're spending a lot of our time, going back to people and going, "Good idea. Bad idea. Good idea. Yeah, not so good idea."

Those are the types of things that we're trying to at least steer people away so they don't spend millions of dollars, come back to me and go, "Eh... It didn't sell." "Well, okay. You never should have made it. It was never going to work anyway. It didn't work on the Wii for a reason. That category didn't. Why did you think it was going to work on this one as well?"

What we're also trying to do, and again I agree with Shu, is take a hardcore experience like a SOCOM, that if people want to have an online shooter experience, they can go and do that. You and I can just blow our brains out, get our trophies, and have a great time.

But if my 7-year-old son wants to play it -- not suggesting he's going to be playing SOCOM, an M-rated game -- but if he wants to play a style of game like that, he can play at home and at least have a good experience, a much more casual experience, and not worry about having that hardcore experience. I still think that has some value and some relevance to it.

[patsu]

Eh... how 'bout a RPG math textbook ?
http://www.andriasang.com/e/blog/2010/05/23/namco_bandai_textbooks/


Reported today at Asahi, Namco Bandai is working with textbook publisher Gakko Tosho to produce a new type of textbook for elementary schools. Namco Bandai will be contributing a number of unique elements to these textbooks, most notably an RPG-like storyline for the math textbooks.

Each volume of a math textbook will have a problem corner titled "Math Adventure." Students follow an RPG-like storyline as they solve problems. Get the correct answer, and you earn keys. Collect all the keys, and you earn a treasure of some form. This "game" has clearly defined characters -- for example, Yuto, who was born on July 25, is full of energy but is bad at math.

...


(Pictures in the link above)



EDIT:
Thanks! that was a really interesting interview about a lot of stuff.

Concerning Move I also found this interesting.



E3 will be interesting this year for many reasons.

I think post E3 may be more interesting. I reckon Microsoft will spam the world hard on Natal. Basically, everywhere you go, "every" TV channels, highway billboards, web pages and magazine pages you turn to, you will see Natal ads and use cases. They may try to wash everything away like a flash flood.

The tech is interesting, so it should be relatively easy for their PR people to line up free interviews, articles and other exposures on traditional media which are hungry for new stuff.

Meanwhile, Sony may have problem explaining or even just showing 3D games to people on regular TVs. Consumers will still associate Move with Wii due to the similarity -- unless they can show completely unique games/applications that are relevant to the masses.

[Shifty Geezer]

Eh... how 'bout a RPG math textbook ?
http://www.andriasang.com/e/blog/2010/05/23/namco_bandai_textbooks/
I'm working on an RPG (now becoming more RTS!) adventure boardgame for teaching maths. DnD dice-rolling is a great structure for exercising quick mental maths, while the adventure game provides a fun structure for questions that's scalable and progressive with subject, with all the appeal of loot an levelling.

Now, the big difference with the Move and the Natal, if you're going to do it with Natal, you're going to do it exclusive with Microsoft. That's not going to be the case for the Move. You have a code base that works across all three platforms.

How do you build that up and how you implement it into your game? Do I think you're going to see (inappropriate Move implementations)? Absolutely. Hmmm. Code base that works across all three platforms? How do they do point-and-shoot with Natal? Plus, kinda shooting himself in the foot, he's suggesting Natal will have unique experiences and cross-platform ones whereas Move will be a basis for cross-platform titles, so surely with XB360 one gets the best of both worlds?! :p

[patsu]

I'm working on an RPG (now becoming more RTS!) adventure boardgame for teaching maths. DnD dice-rolling is a great structure for exercising quick mental maths, while the adventure game provides a fun structure for questions that's scalable and progressive with subject, with all the appeal of loot an levelling.

Are you hoping to turn this into a business, or is it for fun only ? Board game is tough. Low margin and hard to set up channel. May need to participate in events and win awards.

[Shifty Geezer]

It just for my own private tuition I give.

[obonicus]

Code base that works across all three platforms? How do they do point-and-shoot with Natal?

I think he's referring to using the Move like the right side of a DS3, as we've seen for SOCOM.

[Shifty Geezer]

Wouldn't that be a design-base, not a code base. By code base I presume he's talking about PhyreEngine, the cross-platform engine Sony offers with its SDK, but that makes little sense too if they don't support Wii.

[Squilliam]

It just for my own private tuition I give.

Wait, is this a software game, game or a boardgame, game?

[Shifty Geezer]

Paper boardgame, but that's getting OT, other than that I'm drawing from game experiences in my design, and it's a '3D Augmented Reality' game using little game pieces. :p

[patsu]

http://www.edge-online.com/news/natal-to-cost-149-–-source


That’s according to a trusted source, who told us that the motion sensing camera will also be bundled with the Xbox 360 Arcade console for $299.

We were informed that prices outside of the US would be determined based on a number of factors, including exchange rates. Based on current rates, the standalone unit would retail for £103 / €121, and the console and Natal bundle for £207 / €243.

[Alucardx23]

It has to be something truly revolutionary to be worth that price.

Natal To Cost $149 – Source

That’s according to a trusted source (http://www.edge-online.com/news/first-gears-of-war-3-gameplay-details), who told us that the motion sensing camera will also be bundled with the Xbox 360 Arcade console for $299.
We were informed that prices outside of the US would be determined based on a number of factors, including exchange rates. Based on current rates, the standalone unit would retail for £103 / €121, and the console and Natal bundle for £207 / €243.

The figure for the standalone unit is significantly higher than a previous sub-£50 estimate (http://www.edge-online.com/news/sub-%C2%A350-natal-to-launch-november-2010-report), but less than pricing recently suggested (http://www.edge-online.com/news/swedish-retailers-out-high-natal-price) by European retailers. It’s also more expensive than Sony’s Natal rival Move, which will be available later this year with a game for less than $100 (http://www.edge-online.com/news/36-third-party-developers-supporting-ps-move).
Our source said that the device has been pencilled in for an October 26 worldwide launch, although we were advised that the date could yet shift by a few weeks either way.

http://www.edge-online.com/news/natal-to-cost-149-%E2%80%93-source

[thop]

Interesting move by MS to drop out of the motion control race early.

[Shifty Geezer]

Gosh, $150 after the downgrades too. The prototypes must have looked awfully expensive back then.

[obonicus]

Did we ever get a confirmation on what Natal's specs will actually be?

[Alkohallick]

Interesting move by MS to drop out of the motion control race early.

While i agree that its priced to high, im not so sure it will matter. All of MS accessories are over priced and they still seem to sell. People will buy this thing up due to the massive amount of advertising MS is going to be doing.

[Gradthrawn]

Interesting move by MS to drop out of the motion control race early.

Gosh, $150 after the downgrades too. The prototypes must have looked awfully expensive back then.

Much like Live, and the XBox itself was last generation, and as I suspect Home is, I think Natal and Move are initiatives designed to get their (MS and SCEs) feet in the door and establish a platform. Something to build on for the next generation. Joker's thought on the matter would seem to further support this, in that (Move at least) is a bit of "half hearted/reactionary" (for lack of a better term) effort. Which would make sense if the objective is to simply get established (why spend the resources when you know you're just experimenting).

IMO, they don't necessarily need to obtain Wii level mass-market appeal, so long as they simply expand their current market and establish themselves in the motion sensing game. That can provide invaluable data for the next generation when they will perhaps take an integrated approach.

Maybe these devices will carve out their own niche market, with a group that sits between Wii and PS360 users. People who want the active elements of the Wii, but the graphical fidelity of the PS360. How large that market is, and if that's enough to sustain the cost of this initiative, I don't know. Nor do I know if those same people would not already have purchased one of the aforementioned systems. I guess we'll find out soon enough.