Computex ARM Netbook Frenzy [Archive]

Arun

01-Jun-2009, 15:10

Updated Link List
Tegra-based various devices: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hlgq-2IkkHU
Freescale-based Wistron N900z: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSjqqYwcyeo&feature=channel
Qualcomm-based Android smartbook: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bk6arGe1EEg
TI-based Android netbook shell: http://www.engadget.com/2009/06/02/video-ecs-t800-netbook-brings-us-to-our-knees-with-android-on-1/
Complete(?) list of Tegra ODM designs being showed at Computex: http://www.nvidia.com/object/tegra_odm_devices.html
Tegra-based Mobinnova elan/N910: http://www.engadget.com/2009/06/02/video-tegra-based-mobinnova-elan-running-windows-ce-on-tegra-ro/

If anyone finds more good links to videos or extra info, let me know!

-----

Let's use this thread to follow the netbook & MID (aka smartbooks) announcements at Computex... (June 2-6). EETimes published two articles about Qualcomm and Freescale's solutions in the last few days:
http://www.eetimes.eu/design/217700855
http://www.eetimes.eu/consumer/217700918
Several of Taiwan's contract design and manufacturing companies will show smartbooks at Computex based on Freescale's iMX51 processor, Burchers said. Branded OEM product launches are not expected until the fall.

[...]

Some of the ARM-based systems will sell for as little as $199. Atom-based notebooks typically sell for $399 to $599. Taiwan's Pegatron and Wistron will both show clamshell smartbooks at Computex. Burchers said he believes the companies have deals to sell the designs to OEMs.

More than a dozen companies plan to be shipping smartbooks by this fall using chips from Freescale, Texas Instruments and Qualcomm, according to Will Strauss, principal of market watcher Forward Concepts (Tempe, Ariz.). "We believe that smartbooks could be a 40-million unit annual market by 2013," Strauss wrote in a newsletter released Sunday (May 31).

And then today came a whole bunch of articles about NV that show they might just be the most aggressive and hands-on behind the scenes for ARM netbooks:
http://venturebeat.com/2009/05/31/nvidia-trumpets-success-of-its-tegra-cell-phone-processors/
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13924_3-10252757-64.html
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2347858,00.asp
http://www.netbookchoice.com/2009/06/01/computex-nvidia-tegra-netbooks-to-debut-with-windows-ce/
In the past two months, Rayfield said, his team visited 27 cell phone carriers. He said there is huge interest overseas in places such as South America, as well as domestically.

[...]

According to Nvidia officials, 14 major ODMs including Foxconn and Wistron, will show models using Tegra at Computex. These netbooks use a special version of Windows CE and a custom UI from Nvidia. [Arun: I think that's a misunderstanding, it has to be 14 ODMs working on it of which several will display models at Computex]

[...]

“There are two operating systems we support. Microsoft Windows CE and, as it becomes more interesting for large screens, (Google) Android,” he said. Rayfield expects the Android OS to appear in netbooks by the middle of next year. “Android has got a roar ahead of it but I think it’s three of four quarters from a large-screen device. And the market wants something interesting before that,” he said.

The first devices will not be shown off by some of the larger PC names, but by telecommunication carriers. “We’re bringing the carriers in. I’ve got 100 people showing up from carriers at Computex,” said Rayfield. The devices to be shown off at Computex will be those that “are about ready to release into production,” he said.

“The ODMs (original design manufacturers) will sell directly to the carriers. The OEMs (original equipment manufacturers) are getting cut out of the deal. The carriers want to brand it themselves. They would prefer not to show a large OEM (e.g., PC maker) name, they would prefer to show T-Mobile or Vodafone or whoever the carrier might be,” he said.

In terms of price, smaller devices with WVGA displays (800 x 480 resolution) will sell for $99, whilst your typical netbook will sell for $100 to $200. We look forward to more detail on these Tegra netbooks to come out of Computex in the next few days.Qualcomm seems to follow a similar strategy (duh, they've got 3G integrated) and Inventec for example claims to be working on 4 designs:
http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/165820/inventec_ready_to_ship_snapdragon_laptop_in_q4.htm l
Inventec, a Taiwanese company that makes laptops on behalf of several of the world's best-known PC brand names, is developing up to four Snapdragon laptop models for customers, said Mark Hirsch [cq], vice president for marketing at the company.
Meanwhile, Freescale seems to be focusing more (but not exclusively) on the discrete market. And I have no idea what TI is doing. I also think Rayfield's position wrt Android only being ready in about a year for netbooks (i.e. version 3.0) is spot on, FWIW. Ubuntu with OpenOffice isn't a bad platform for the prosumer space though.

The biggest disadvantage with WinCE is you don't have a good office suite. However with Skyfire at least you should be able to use Google Docs, which seems very attractive for the student market (certainly I'd use it). I'm pretty sure neither IE Mobile 6 nor Opera 9.5 support Google Docs though, but I don't know about 9.7... I'm pretty horrified at Android still not supporting flexible video acceleration in the 2.0 release (aka Donut) - oh well.

Anyway this is certainly heating up. Personally I'm mostly hoping the non-3G models are good and the UIs deliver more or less. I certainly would be very tempted by a 7" $99 netbook on WinCE with a 3D UI; at that price, it's practically disposable. Which is also why I think tieing it with a 2-year contract is insanity (12-18 months maybe...) but heh, I'll be the first to admit it's a very attractive distribution channel.

Silent_Buddha

01-Jun-2009, 20:36

So far, this appears to be the best chance of an alternative OS challenging MS. If Google plays it's hand well and executes well this could open things up for them with it eventually leading to desktop penetration.

Assuming they not only execute and deliver a robust OS but also bring along good 3rd party support of applications.

Personally though, I hope they fail as I'd hate to see the desktop application space become fragmented again as it was in the 80's and early 90's.

It's nice being able to just buy something and know it'll work.

Regards,
SB

Mike11

01-Jun-2009, 21:59

I really don't see Smartbooks becoming an alternative for the mass market this year or next year, too much hardware is not ready yet. And on the software side, we all know how much consumers loved Linux on their Netbook, so plain ARM Ubuntu won't do it, and Android won't be ready for another year.

Maybe in 2011 with Android 3.x, 32nm OMAP4s and a Pixel Qi display :) But by then they will have very strong competition with Medfield and Moblin...

Wishmaster

01-Jun-2009, 22:01

I hope that wm7 will be a worthy challenger for android on netbook/smartbook market.

Arun

01-Jun-2009, 23:07

It's nice being able to just buy something and know it'll work.But you get that with Android in theory - it's called an App Store! ;) Of course, I'm a bit skeptical that smartphone apps will be perfectly appropriate for netbooks (here's hoping they will at least be backwards compatible mostly), but if you could put them inside windows and have multiple visible at the same time that'd be attractive... No idea if that's the plan for 3.0 though.
I really don't see Smartbooks becoming an alternative for the mass market this year or next year, too much hardware is not ready yet. And on the software side, we all know how much consumers loved Linux on their Netbook, so plain ARM Ubuntu won't do it, and Android won't be ready for another year.Hmm, I'm not so sure. On the HW side, Qualcomm is penalized because their chip integrates 3G and so it needs to go through certification again on 45nm etc. - NV/TI/Freescale don't have that problem on their 45/40nm generation. At least in NV's case, I'd be relatively confident you could have netbooks aimed at the 2010 holiday season. Maybe even back-to-school, but that depends on when their chip actually starts sampling and I haven't really kept up to date...

As for software, it'll evolve gradually, but Android 3.0 and WinCE 7 should be solid foundations so once again, I'd be hopeful for 2H10. If that fails horribly, I can't see what magical thing would make 2011/2012 much better except for more apps to run on it.

Mike11

02-Jun-2009, 00:24

Hmm, I'm not so sure. On the HW side, Qualcomm is penalized because their chip integrates 3G and so it needs to go through certification again on 45nm etc. - NV/TI/Freescale don't have that problem on their 45/40nm generation. At least in NV's case, I'd be relatively confident you could have netbooks aimed at the 2010 holiday season. Maybe even back-to-school, but that depends on when their chip actually starts sampling and I haven't really kept up to date...

As for software, it'll evolve gradually, but Android 3.0 and WinCE 7 should be solid foundations so once again, I'd be hopeful for 2H10. If that fails horribly, I can't see what magical thing would make 2011/2012 much better except for more apps to run on it.
Holiday season 2010 could be possible, but I still think H1/2011 is more likely. Of course some Smartbooks will be available much earlier, but I think they will be aimed at the tech savvy crowd.

On the software side, what about Maemo and Symbian? Especially Maemo could be ready for Smartbooks a lot earlier than the other OSs, since Nokia's Internet Tablets are already almost Smartbooks.

rpg.314

02-Jun-2009, 03:57

An out-of-order dual core ARM with some good graphics would be great for me, personally. And I'd rather install a gentoo on it. :)

wco81

02-Jun-2009, 06:27

dZeus

02-Jun-2009, 08:34

Arun

02-Jun-2009, 12:16

List of NVIDIA Tegra netbooks, straight from the source: http://www.nvidia.com/object/tegra_odm_devices.html
Updated the first post along with the Mobinnova info, if anyone finds more stuff about other devices let me know.

I love the comments at engadget - some of those are sane, but others prove nothing but the fact they didn't even bother opening the video. Oops? IMO, NV probably should have claimed that it's a "custom 3D operating system based on Windows CE" rather than say "it's Windows CE with a custom UI". I'm also curious about their emphasis on Flash apps (too bad real 3D games aren't really possible there), and hopefully they'll point out Firefox mobile supports Google Docs which I think is a key selling point for the student market. So, what do you guys think?

Entropy

02-Jun-2009, 12:55

Hmm, this whole movement towards netbooks and MIDs seem analogous to the success of the Wii.

Price and cute form factor leading to a backward step in technology. It's fine if people are getting these as complements to regular computers but it sounds like there's interest in developing countries in these things as replacements for desktops and regular laptops because of the lower prices.

Lets see, inferior ergonomics (scrunched keyboards), smaller, low-res displays and slower connections on mobile networks, not to mention slower processors.

Energy efficiency is "a backward step in technology"?

And how can you say that "It's fine if people are getting these as complements to regular computers"? Maybe these machines suit their customers needs quite well. I'm a computational scientist, and I've done much of my private computing on Palm Pilots for almost a decade now. Attach a wireless keyboard and type away.

The days of the stationary computers are slowly drawing to a close - slowly, because they have (had) some cost advantages and above all are practical for many businesses and administrations from a service and maintenance standpoint. Even so, the trend of portable computers replacing desktops rather than complementing them has been taking place for a decade or so, and has been a much stronger trend among consumers than anywhere else. Nobody should be surprised that netbooks are successful, and most people understand that the segment will grow and eat into the traditional Wintel user base. Why do you think Intel has been desperate to promote their Atom processors even without a decent chipset? Why has Microsoft developed a new lighter version of it's OS and is doing its damndest on all fronts to both make it attractive and unattractive at the same time? Both companies are pulling every last string they can find to try to stop ARM/linux netbooks because they know that these will ultimately be successful and make it impossible to keep their average selling prices up. And if this threat hadn't existed for their partners to leverage, the two giants would have been much harsher to deal with and the computing model that allows them to milk a strong and steady stream of cash from the world would have been much harder to soften up. Ultimately, while the Wintel hegemony has had advantages, it has also stifled innovation and growth - compare the development of cell phones to Windows PCs over the last decade.

Portables eat desktops, netbooks eat portables, phones eat netbooks (and everything else) - there you have the food chain of the next few years. And it makes perfect sense.

Silent_Buddha

02-Jun-2009, 14:31

I wouldn't say notebooks/netbooks eventually replacing desktops is set in stone.

I know quite a few people both in business and personally that have switched back to desktops after going notebook only the past few years.

Mostly what they found out is that they didn't need the portability. Also, the ability to use a large monitor + desktop at lower cost than notebook + large monitor + docking station was a win win situation for them.

While some have kept their notebooks, they have gone from notebook only to notebook + desktop now. With the notebook relegated to work/vacation use only. And as said previously some have stopped using notebooks entirely.

It's been interesting watching the dynamics of computing over the past 30 years...

If anything, affordable netbook's main draw is most likely the ability to more easily afford a dedicated desktop machine and a portable computing device without breaking the bank. Or having to choose to go solely portable or solely desktop.

Regards,
SB

wco81

02-Jun-2009, 14:35

Well they consume less energy but then, they have slower processors and smaller screens.

It sounds like this interest in the developing world is more driven by price than any green aspirations. And in the G8 markets, where they might be more green consciousness, sales also seem to be driven by price, along with some desire for greater mobility. It still seems likely that most netbook customers in these markets own or have access to other computers.

When the web took off in the '90s, people talked about net computers and thin clients, even talked about "network is the computer" like they're kind of talking about the cloud now.

Some companies came out with dedicated appliances which only did email and a few other functions for the tech averse customers -- things to get for your grandma.

Netbooks and MIDs are more full-featured than those appliances, which never caught on. But you're getting a fraction of the performance and experience (compared to desktops and laptops with bigger screens and full-sized keyboards) at a fraction of the price.

Again, analogies to what Wii has done in consoles seem to apply. Wildly successful yet but if the other vendors decided to dedicate more of the BOM costs to something other than CPU/GPU, is this paradigm shift necessarily progress?

If the biggest auto markets adopted smart and even smaller cars, which are greener but have more limited range and other limitations relative to the vehicles they replace, would that be progress? Maybe from an environmental POV but it is a diminishment in the experience, compared to the bigger, higher-performance cars which have been replaced.

Arun

02-Jun-2009, 15:08

Well given what's happening for perf/area vs. perf/watt when it comes to process technology, I think eventually even ARM netbooks will start having higher TDPs - essentially only limited by the fact they don't want to have a heatsink. But average and idle power, on the other hand, should still drop even lower. Just look at Qualcomm's QSD8672: dual-core dual-issue 1.5GHz processors for netbooks. On 28nm (->2012 netbooks?), I wouldn't be surprised if we could have a quad-core 2GHz Cortex-A9. That's quite something...

BTW, photos of the Tegra netbooks 'in the flesh' (no pun originally intended): http://www.tweaktown.com/news/12359/nvidia_girls_show_off_early_tegra_based_hd_mids/

Albuquerque

02-Jun-2009, 15:27

I know I'm just restating what was already mentioned, but I feel the need to do it anyway...

Price and cute form factor leading to a backward step in technology. It's fine if people are getting these as complements to regular computers but it sounds like there's interest in developing countries in these things as replacements for desktops and regular laptops because of the lower prices.
Lower prices is surely part of it; think of it as essentially "commoditizing" a computer. When my first Apple ][e cost $5k, that was a significant barrier to entry for nearly everyone. When my first 386SX16 rig cost $3k about eight to ten years later, that was far better, but still a notable barrier to entry for most people. Today, with a netbook costing as little as $200, computing resources can now be made available "en masse".

Lets see, inferior ergonomics (scrunched keyboards)
The HP 2140 and Dell Mini 9 and Dell Mini 10 all have a keyboard that is 92% of the size of a standard form factor. If a reduction of 8% is "scrunched", then perhaps we have some differences in our perception. I found typing on both models to be very comfortable.

smaller, low-res displaysYes, they're smaller, which means they need to be lesser resolution to make them readable. Nevertheless, I would rate both the HP and Dell mini's screen readability as "excellent" with the uniform LED backlight and excellent angle. Would I like more resolution? Yeah, but then you start running into "tiny text" issues. For web surfing, emailing, document writing, and YouTube videos, the 1024x600 platform is entirely suitable.

and slower connections on mobile networks
If you're talking about 3G networks, then any laptop can have this same issue. Quite frankly, I find 3G perfectly acceptable for viewing this forum, watching YouTube, reading the news, pulling email, sending basic attachments, et al. Other than the limitations of the cellular network (that are NOT related to Netbooks specifically), most if not all Netbooks come with the same connectivity options as their bigger Laptop brothers -- wireless A/B/G/N and wired 10/100/1000 networking.

not to mention slower processors.
Sure, it's not my Q9450 rig, hell it's not even the same as the T2300 (non-E) on my Dell Inspiron. But what are you going to do on a netbook that requires a ridiculous amount of horsepower? As a demo to some other "naysayers" in a recent presentation I did, I handed around the HP 2140 playing back the Transformers quicktime trailer in H.264 480P compression -- no issues, and CPU utilization was about ~60%. This is probably about the hardest that machine should ever expect to have to work, and it was the Atom N270 behind it with an Intel i950 IGP (ie, the video chipset wasn't doing much to help)

I think people give way too much shit to netbooks as "slow" or "crap" or simply write them off as "cheap". The reason they are selling is because there's a market for small, lesser-powered, energy efficient, highly mobile computing that does all the work a normal non-computer-dorky person would need to do.

It's the same reason why Intel is the biggest seller of graphics chips -- not because they're the fastest, or most fully featured, or even the most compatible. But they get the job DONE for 90% of the computing populace at an insignificant price.

Entropy

02-Jun-2009, 16:18

I think people give way too much shit to netbooks as "slow" or "crap" or simply write them off as "cheap". The reason they are selling is because there's a market for small, lesser-powered, energy efficient, highly mobile computing that does all the work a normal non-computer-dorky person would need to do.

This is true.
The interesting follow-up question everyone should ask themselves is why people like Ottelini, Ballmer, and other industry top dogs have felt compelled to attack netbooks.

(Ironically, even though ASPs as well as fear of the unknown in the industry are the obvious answer, I'm not sure it stops there. For someone like Otellini, if you have spent a major part of your professional life supplying ever more sophisticated and powerful processors, having the world simply loose interest has to be felt at an emotional level - you have managed to progress yourself into irrelevance in some sense. The rise of netbooks, the dismal uptake of the Nehalems, the overall trends all send the same message. And I think this message, the public saying "performance specs are not cool, I'm just not interested anymore" is the reason why Albuquerque finds many computer interested people reacting against netbooks. Just as on these fora many tech interested react against the Wii - its success implies that their worldview isn't as significant as they had assumed, which in turn threatens their self-esteem.)

Incidentally, I own two or three stationary computers myself. When I go portable, I go really portable, but that doesn't stop either stationary or handheld computers from being loosers in the evolution of computing. I'm sure there will be a lot of stationary computers in the future as well - I just believe that almost all used in businesses and administrations will eventually look like the Eee Box.

Mike11

02-Jun-2009, 18:18

Yes, they're smaller, which means they need to be lesser resolution to make them readable. Nevertheless, I would rate both the HP and Dell mini's screen readability as "excellent" with the uniform LED backlight and excellent angle. Would I like more resolution? Yeah, but then you start running into "tiny text" issues. For web surfing, emailing, document writing, and YouTube videos, the 1024x600 platform is entirely suitable.
That's just a shortcoming of the OS (lack of resolution independent GUI).

What's bugging me: Why is Nvidia calling Netbooks with ARM CPUs "MIDs"???

wco81

02-Jun-2009, 18:18

Many people pick them up for travel or think they're going to be spending more time on the road, whiling away the hours at a cafe with Wifi.

But in most of these cases, it's a complementary device to other computers they own or have access to, with which they will manage their photos and music, where more processing power, storage and larger displays make a lot more sense.

Mike11

02-Jun-2009, 19:21

But in most of these cases, it's a complementary device to other computers they own or have access to, with which they will manage their photos and music, where more processing power, storage and larger displays make a lot more sense.
Yeah, that's the theory, that's how it should be. But in reality a lot of people pick up Netbooks INSTEAD of a new "real" PC/Notebook.

Silent_Buddha

02-Jun-2009, 20:12

Yeah, that's the theory, that's how it should be. But in reality a lot of people pick up Netbooks INSTEAD of a new "real" PC/Notebook.

Hard to tell on that. So far experience in my area is that they are replacing notebooks, but...

1. They keep their existing desktop for heavy use.
2. Allows them to pickup a Desktop + netbook for the price of a comparable notebook if they didn't have a desktop.

I haven't seen very many people that have gone netbook only. Probably a demographic I don't have much contact with.

I also haven't seen many cases where instead of Desktop + Netbook they go with Notebook (like a desktop replacement notebook) + Netbook.

Although I have seen some interesting cases where they've gone with server + multiple netbooks. Replacing most desktops and notebooks in the home.

Regards,
SB

Entropy

02-Jun-2009, 22:00

I don't think that the netbook market today really reflects the future. Rather it is indicative of a direction. As soon as netbooks started being available, they were adopted by the market, and in relatively large numbers. They are still too new a phenomenon to really have penetrated the market, most consumers change computers with intervals of several years so the overwhelming majority haven't had reason to even consider netbooks yet. Non-enthusiast people tend to buy what they know, so it may take one or even two new purchases before they take the plunge. It will be half a decade or more until we have a better grasp of where the netbook phenomenon is going. It is still very unclear what will be the dominant form of computing device in the next decade, with a screen larger than a cell phone can practically accomodate.

But we already know that
a) many people feel at home with the general netbook concept.
b) they follow and reinforce existing trends of lowered prices and portability.
c) they will diversify.

Albuquerque

02-Jun-2009, 22:23

Yeah, that's the theory, that's how it should be. But in reality a lot of people pick up Netbooks INSTEAD of a new "real" PC/Notebook.

Ok, I have an honest question -- will the average 40 to 50 year old who doesn't have a job in IT require a "real" laptop for their computing needs?

I keep hearing this argument, and I don't agree with it. My 50-year old mother and stepfather do NOT need a Core i7 965 to surf the web. they don't need an E8400 to write a word document. They don't even need a T2300 to use Outlook 2007. Hell, I have a Pentium MMX 166 (the original variety, with the 66mhz bus using fast page mode ram) that can play back 320kbps VBR MP3 files with cycles to spare.

We've hit a point where processing power has far outstripped the needs of the "basic" user, and we're talking by multiple orders of magnitude. Yes, netbooks have far less horsepower than a "real" laptop, but 90% of the general computing population doesn't use one quarter of the horsepower that a "real" laptop would provide.

Silent_Buddha

02-Jun-2009, 22:54

Well other than briefly during the Windows 2.0-3.11 era, computers of the time have always been vastly more powerful than the average home user would need.

Even back in the days of the 8088, it was generally more than you needed for simple word processing and spreadsheets which is about all most average home owners needed them for.

It's only when trying to do additional tasks that computer power comes into play as a potentially limiting factor.

So, yes, a netbook can be perfectly fine if a user never runs into a situation where they might feel slowed down. And heck even for a lot of home users, slow downs are acceptable since they don't even know that it's slow.

There ARE some other potentially large issues however. For people like my dad who's eyes are starting to age. It's not easy for him to read text on any desktop LCD at native resolution. Netbooks would thus have greatly limited display space if used as a primary and only computer unless you also bought a large screen monitor to go with it. Which sorta cuts down on the price advantage quite a bit.

200-300 USD netbook versus 600-700 USD (including 200 USD monitor) pretty attractive. Change that to 400-500 USD (adding large monitor) netbook setup versus 600-700 USD desktop setup and it's not quite as attractive. Add to that if you then also add in a full sized keyboard and mouse to make typing and navigation easier and you're slowly eroding the attractiveness of a netbook as the only computer. At least for older people.

Regards,
SB

Albuquerque

02-Jun-2009, 23:50

wco81

03-Jun-2009, 00:02

What about editing and browsing a large library of photos? Even if you don't run Photoshop or some higher-end program like Lightroom, it doesn't hurt to have the graphics to scroll through thumnails.

Not to mention the storage options which aren't available on a netbook.

Then you can add in things like audio and video media as well.

And even browsers could use up a lot of resources with a lot of tabs open on some sites with Java, Flash, etc.

Albuquerque

03-Jun-2009, 00:36

What about editing and browsing a large library of photos? Even if you don't run Photoshop or some higher-end program like Lightroom, it doesn't hurt to have the graphics to scroll through thumnails.
If your primary use of a computer is editing large quantities of photos, why would you buy one with a 9" monitor? That doesn't make sense.

Not to mention the storage options which aren't available on a netbook.
Like what? It's a standard 2.5" form factor drive; you can get 500GB in it even today. Or are you talking about external media? If you want to burn DVD's, then why would you buy a system without an optical drive? This again doesn't make sense.

Then you can add in things like audio and video media as well.
Video manipulation goes hand-in-hand with your first flawed example of large library of photos. If your primary use for the machine is video editing, why would you buy something with a 9" viewport? That's dumb.

And even browsers could use up a lot of resources with a lot of tabs open on some sites with Java, Flash, etc.
And? I've got nine tabs open in Chrome; I opened several of them just because of this thread. While simultaneously playing an HD YouTube video, two Flash games (Tower Defence and Blox), a query in NewEgg for DDR3 ram, this forum, two more car forums that I like, my Google Picasa account, and my OWA account through work, it's using about 18% of my T2300 processor and about 200mb of ram.

So why is this going to be a problem for a netbook; especially one with a 9" viewport?

Again, I keep hearing examples of why they're bad, but none of these examples are really applicable. If you need a freaking box truck, you don't go buy a Geo Metro. If you need a daily driver that gets excellent gas mileage and can carry you and your briefcase to work every day in relative comfort, you don't need a box truck.

Why are we comparing box truck needs to a Geo Metro platform?

wco81

03-Jun-2009, 01:11

Because 50-somethings and "normal non-computer-dorky person" would be likely to edit photos, audio/video, etc.

Blazkowicz

03-Jun-2009, 05:19

last time I saw a netbook thread.. I thought, ARM netbooks are probably pointless next to an x86 + gpu netbook.
but cost and battery life are everything. also even if non-x86 it would be infinitely more usable than smartphones, cracked consoles or handeld stuff like gamepark GP2x.

That's just a shortcoming of the OS (lack of resolution independent GUI).

What's bugging me: Why is Nvidia calling Netbooks with ARM CPUs "MIDs"???

because they want to sell the ION netbooks as "full computers", maybe.

I love the comments at engadget - some of those are sane, but others prove nothing but the fact they didn't even bother opening the video. Oops? IMO, NV probably should have claimed that it's a "custom 3D operating system based on Windows CE" rather than say "it's Windows CE with a custom UI". I'm also curious about their emphasis on Flash apps (too bad real 3D games aren't really possible there), and hopefully they'll point out Firefox mobile supports Google Docs which I think is a key selling point for the student market. So, what do you guys think?

yes, they could have claimed that given their history of arrogant claims.. like Google Android, touted as a "custom OS based on the linux kernel", rather than a set of libraries running on an existing OS.
Windows CE identifies nicely with smart phone, PDA and other "half computers", though.

I would rather have linux and X11. netbooks are meant to run full apps, not be a glorified crap-phone, I meant smart-phone.

regarding Google Docs. it may be used with wifi (one major use of netbooks). it might be used a bit with 3G.. but you quickly risk getting a $100 phone bill or something for using that network bandwith!
netbooks are meant to be used on the go, which means you probably won't have an internet connection (you might get a 3G plan, for 30€ per month IN ADDITION to existing cell phone and internet bills, so it's entirely not a solution for low-cost minded people)
so, give me OpenOffice.org (may be a bit slow, but we have enough memory) or Abiword (which I use on my desktop computer already)

Blazkowicz

03-Jun-2009, 05:33

And? I've got nine tabs open in Chrome; I opened several of them just because of this thread. While simultaneously playing an HD YouTube video, two Flash games (Tower Defence and Blox), a query in NewEgg for DDR3 ram, this forum, two more car forums that I like, my Google Picasa account, and my OWA account through work, it's using about 18% of my T2300 processor and about 200mb of ram.

So why is this going to be a problem for a netbook; especially one with a 9" viewport?

web browsing is extremely CPU intensive those days. even with your numbers, 18% of your dual core CPU is like 36% of a core 2 core (sic), which is similar to 100% of an Atom core or 200% of a lowly, much sub 1GHz ARM.
that's not accounting for the efficiency of your html and javascript engines, and your good quality drivers and flash plugin. running firefox on linux is a tad worse.

We need a bit of processing power!
a dual core nvidia tegra would be nice (same in order "MPCore" cpu). not that dual core is really needed per se, but because the lone core is weak; I've used an outdated PC once, with two outdated CPUs and 7200rpm SCSI disks, the "dual core" nature of it made it pleasant. (compared to before the upgrade, where it would grind to a halt. one pentium pro 200 w/ 128MB upped to two pentium pro w/ 160MB).

Laurent06

03-Jun-2009, 07:35

18% of your dual core CPU is like 36% of a core 2 core (sic), which is similar to 100% of an Atom core or 200% of a lowly, much sub 1GHz ARM.
[...]
a dual core nvidia tegra would be nice (same in order "MPCore" cpu). not that dual core is really needed per se, but because the lone core is weak
It's no secret nVidia has a license of Cortex-A9 MPCore which is faster than Atom at the same frequency. Let's wait and see what they do with it :)

dZeus

03-Jun-2009, 07:35

Entropy

03-Jun-2009, 08:57

I'd say that mainly flash and horribly poorly coded sites are CPU intensive. Hopefully the next HTML spec will provide with a less-cpu intensive alternative to many uses of flash.

Further more, if a large enough share of the userbase uses netbooks, websites will start to optimize for these devices.

Adobe has been quite anxious for Apple to support Flash with the iPhone. If Flash abuse in advertising had been kept in check, other issues could probably be worked out, but as it stands advertising using Flash is the main culprit in making websites unwieldy (and feeling like you're trying to read a pinball machine). What if a world without Flash would simply be ... a better place?

I think it would be a good idea if the emergence of computationally lighter internet devices put the spotlight on an area that has developed without control. Much of my browsing is done with some features turned off that I have to turn on again for specific content. It's a hassle and an annoyance - but still less of an annoyance than blipping, wrooming, stroboscopic ads, pop-up/pop-under windows and so on. And this is in addition of performance concerns. Who wouldn't burst a vessel if turning a page in a newspaper took several seconds due to new ads having to be downloaded and initialized? :)

Wishmaster

03-Jun-2009, 09:05

Can someone explain to me why tegra is only pushed into netbooks where faster CPU wise snapdragon is used in both netbooks(smartbooks) and smartphones?
And what's with that hype around tegra where its only ARM11 CPU both OMAP3 and snapdragon are faster...

Blazkowicz

03-Jun-2009, 09:06

It's no secret nVidia has a license of Cortex-A9 MPCore which is faster than Atom at the same frequency. Let's wait and see what they do with it :)

alright, but I wonder what's the trade off regarding silicon and power budget, will they do a cheap! dual core ARM11 before or go for a single core cortex-A9.
that later one would be much better for running quake 3, though. dual core cortex if they want, fine with me :)

yep that single ARM11 looks slow.
regarding flash, I use the flashblock extension as the one and only extension to filter out the web (it's easy and I don't have to maintain lists). but I still suffer javascript the most. ads I tend to filter out with my brain or go on sites that respect me a bit more.

pcchen

03-Jun-2009, 09:47

Because 50-somethings and "normal non-computer-dorky person" would be likely to edit photos, audio/video, etc.

If your primary usage of computers involves editing photos, audio/video, of course you'll find desktop computers important, and netbooks, MIDs as sidekicks.

However, it also does not have to go this way. For many people, the only things they want to do to their photos are quite limited: adding some captions, adding frames, color correction, red-eye removal, etc. These can actually be done with a netbook, or even a smart phone.

Video editing is of course more demanding. However, at least for me the most works I've done to my home video is just cutting, adding title/captions, color adjustments, noise removal, etc. These are currently quite CPU intensive but they can actually be done with a GPU/DSP with ease. I can foresee that in near future some netbook will have the power to do these works.

Arun

03-Jun-2009, 10:01

What's bugging me: Why is Nvidia calling Netbooks with ARM CPUs "MIDs"???Back at MWC that was because of the Psion vs Intel lawsuit about the 'netbook' word; now they're using *both* MID and netbook but focusing mostly on the former, so I'm not sure what's going on.
What about editing and browsing a large library of photos? Even if you don't run Photoshop or some higher-end program like Lightroom, it doesn't hurt to have the graphics to scroll through thumnails.Editing is certainly a problem (but then again the screen size would be one anyway), but scrolling through thumbnails is likely to be BETTER on an ARM netbook than on a x86 notebook, IMO, because of the JPEG/Huffman acceleration. Just watch this video starting at 1:25 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTEaWfTO-zE&feature=channel
I would rather have linux and X11. netbooks are meant to run full apps, not be a glorified crap-phone, I meant smart-phone.You DO realize x86 apps don't always port automatically to ARM, right? It's certainly much easier in the open source world than for full Windows, but that doesn't mean it's as wonderful as you think it is. Android has one MASSIVE advantage: it's the ultimate trojan horse because the 3rd party applications are all in Java. That means in theory they should work the same on x86 and ARM.

What I think will happen is Android will become a relatively common distribution for x86 netbooks (Acer claims they'll release one in Q3, although I doubt it'll be very good), and this will create an ecosystem around it. And then ARM will benefit from all that work instantly, which is very different than what'd happen with a normal Linux distribution.

regarding Google Docs. it may be used with wifi (one major use of netbooks). it might be used a bit with 3G.. but you quickly risk getting a $100 phone bill or something for using that network bandwith!I'm frankly not sure what kind of bandwidth Google Docs takes, but I'm pretty confident you're overestimating it by at least an order of magnitude. Most dataplans come with several GBs of bandwidth minimum nowadays... So unless you're using it in a foreign country...

netbooks are meant to be used on the go, which means you probably won't have an internet connection (you might get a 3G plan, for 30€ per month IN ADDITION to existing cell phone and internet bills, so it's entirely not a solution for low-cost minded people)You do realize NVIDIA is actually working on carriers being their primary distribution channel for the first Tegra netbooks, right? I agree it's dumb to lock you to a contract for such a cheap product, but I d believe it's a very attractive channel to educate customers about a new kind of product and having so much control over the product's software must be making carriers jump all over the place with excitement.

so, give me OpenOffice.org (may be a bit slow, but we have enough memory) or Abiword (which I use on my desktop computer already)I personally think Google Docs is good enough for a good bit of the market (certainly far from all), but the Linux netbooks from Freescale and Qualcomm do have OpenOffice IIRC. I don't think it would be easy to port to Android, but certainly not impossible.

Can someone explain to me why tegra is only pushed into netbooks where faster CPU wise snapdragon is used in both netbooks(smartbooks) and smartphones?
And what's with that hype around tegra where its only ARM11 CPU both OMAP3 and snapdragon are faster...Wow, you've been on this forum for how long? :) Come on, you know better than this: a) Tegra smartphone from *at least* 3 large OEMs and several ODMs are in the works. b) OMAP3 and Snapdragon's multimedia architectures are a joke, and both are significantly more expensive. However, for netbooks, they are certainly very attractive (in most ways better than Tegra) because of their faster CPUs. c) OMAP4 looks very good but that's very far in the future, and Snapdragon2 is nice but even farther in the future.

alright, but I wonder what's the trade off regarding silicon and power budget, will they do a cheap! dual core ARM11 before or go for a single core cortex-A9.Cortex-A9 vs. 2xARM11 would obviously be much faster for real workloads yet not cost more. So I think it's pretty easy to see what the answer is... ;)

Wishmaster

03-Jun-2009, 10:19

Wow, you've been on this forum for how long? :) Come on, you know better than this: a) Tegra smartphone from *at least* 3 large OEMs and several ODMs are in the works. b) OMAP3 and Snapdragon's multimedia architectures are a joke, and both are significantly more expensive. However, for netbooks, they are certainly very attractive (in most ways better than Tegra) because of their faster CPUs. c) OMAP4 looks very good but that's very far in the future, and Snapdragon2 is nice but even farther in the future.

That is my point exactly.
Tegra is more attractive for smartphones than it is for netbooks and yet nvidia tries to make it the ultimate platform for netbooks(compare numbers of netbook/tablet devices to *few* smartphones that are supposed to come 3Q). I know that *few* smartphones are in works but IMO they should focus more on pocket devices for example 4inch screen with slideout keyboard (similar to OQO 2) would be a killer combination better than netbook. Tegra2 with cortex A9 MPcore would be great for netbooks but tegra1 isn't...
Pushing 600mhz ARM11 netbook against 1Ghz Cortex one is stupid...

Mike11

03-Jun-2009, 11:45

OMAP4 looks very good but that's very far in the future, and Snapdragon2 is nice but even farther in the future.
Snapdragon 2? Ups, I guess I missed something. I thought the latest known Snapdragon to be sampled (in late 2009) was the QSD8650A (45nm 1,3GHz) and QSD8672 (Netbook 45nm Dual-Core)?

Arun

03-Jun-2009, 12:17

That is my point exactly.
Tegra is more attractive for smartphones than it is for netbooks and yet nvidia tries to make it the ultimate platform for netbooks(compare numbers of netbook/tablet devices to *few* smartphones that are supposed to come 3Q). I know that *few* smartphones are in worksWell that's not really their fault is it? I basically agree with you but heh. There are also plenty of wins we don't know about; for example I suspect they are in at least one of the only four phones for the td-scdma China Mobile network via Yulong. Once again not their fault you don't care about that :) I kinda think you're underestimating the wins they've got there really.

Tegra2 with cortex A9 MPcore would be great for netbooks but tegra1 isn't...
Pushing 600mhz ARM11 netbook against 1Ghz Cortex one is stupid...Well, the main netbook SKU is 750MHz. And web browsing is determined quite a bit by how the browser exploits the 3D GPU. But yeah I agree. I don't know about 4-5" MIDs but they do imply they've got wins in that area. We'll see if they ever turn out.

Wrt Snapdragon2, I obviously meant the QSD8672 :)

Wishmaster

03-Jun-2009, 13:11

Well that's not really their fault is it? I basically agree with you but heh. There are also plenty of wins we don't know about; for example I suspect they are in at least one of the only four phones for the td-scdma China Mobile network via Yulong. Once again not their fault you don't care about that :) I kinda think you're underestimating the wins they've got there really.
Well you're right I don't care about ARM netbooks. I prefer ultraportables like OQO did before they went bankrupt. Besides I think that ultraportables(Pocketable Computing Device as once qualcomm called those types of devices) could become even more popular then netbooks. Considering small size and good performance.
Well, the main netbook SKU is 750MHz. And web browsing is determined quite a bit by how the browser exploits the 3D GPU. But yeah I agree. I don't know about 4-5" MIDs but they do imply they've got wins in that area. We'll see if they ever turn out.
Even if they use GPU for browser it will be smoother but I don't believe it will make it render sites faster at least as fast as omap3 or snapdragon.
Wrt Snapdragon2, I obviously meant the QSD8672 :)
I figured that one out:wink: but this is still at least one year till we see any prototype running dual core 1,5Ghz but that is something worth waiting for. Same goes to msm8xxx considering that it is probably the best we can get from single core SoC.

Arun

03-Jun-2009, 13:20

Well you're right I don't care about ARM netbooks. I prefer ultraportables like OQO did before they went bankrupt. Besides I think that ultraportables(Pocketable Computing Device as once qualcomm called those types of devices) could become even more popular then netbooks. Considering small size and good performance.I don't know, imo that's either a big smartphone (see: one of the toshiba tg-01 derivatives coming later this year) which is good or a UMPC that is neither pocketable nor very big and that's bad. Fwiw I do believe and hope that smartphones will get bigger.

Even if they use GPU for browser it will be smoother but I don't believe it will make it render sites faster at least as fast as omap3 or snapdragon.Probably, but my point is that it *might* be 'good enough'. We'll see, tbh I'd be more intetested in one of those $99 7" WiFi-only SKUs...

Wishmaster

03-Jun-2009, 13:48

I don't know, imo that's either a big smartphone (see: one of the toshiba tg-01 derivatives coming later this year) which is good or a UMPC that is neither pocketable nor very big and that's bad. Fwiw I do believe and hope that smartphones will get bigger.
I think that toshiba k01(the one with keyboard and capacitive touchscreen) is exactly what ultraportable should be. Big screen(but not too big), fast CPU, good graphics and multimedia if it only has some kind of video output(preferably HDMI) and USB host option it may become the uber smartphone. Hopefully capacitive screen means upgrade to wm7 when available...
Probably, but my point is that it *might* be 'good enough'. We'll see, tbh I'd be more intetested in one of those $99 7" WiFi-only SKUs...
Good for browsing the web and occasionally something more but not really my type of device :wink:

Silent_Buddha

03-Jun-2009, 16:39

Ok, but people buy what accommodates their need.

People with limited vision or needing extra-large keyboards won't buy a "netbook"; that's just not a valid argument. They probably wouldn't even buy a laptop, unless it came in a 17" variety. People who need to develop databases and generate rich hi-def content won't want the tiny form factor either. Nor will hardcore gamers.

I keep hearing arguments applied to Netbooks that don't even exist -- people who have these needs aren't even in the market for a netbook! It's like saying that the heft of a full-size case on a desktop will push away those folks who want mobility -- you know what, if they want mobility, the size of a desktop case isn't going to dissuade them from a desktop platform, it's simply not even in their scope of options.

That's exactly what I was saying, you brought up the point that older people don't need anything more than a netbook. I was just pointing out that netbooks aren't really all that useful for a lot of older people since the screen is too small to have good legibility for them.

If they change DPI settings or lower the resolution they get basically almost no screen area.

Regards,
SB

Entropy

04-Jun-2009, 13:33

That's exactly what I was saying, you brought up the point that older people don't need anything more than a netbook. I was just pointing out that netbooks aren't really all that useful for a lot of older people since the screen is too small to have good legibility for them.
Most elderly can read a newspaper. If the type size is similar, you're OK.

We still don't know how this segment will develop. Pocket size computing will be owned by phones for obvious reasons. The "netbook" will be defined by a larger screen size than what is practical for phones.

Performance, even though many here are interested in that aspect, is hardly the most critical factor - battery life, size, weight, screen type, ergonomics, keyboard or not, output capabilities, ruggedness, connectivity options et cetera are all easily as important.

One thing to remember when it comes to performance is that phones will be an increasing proportion of internet access - sites and technologies that don't work well with phones will decline. If you look at netbooks as more capable phones (rather than cut-down PCs), the implication is that performance won't be much of an issue, anything that works with a phone will work just as well or better with a netbook.

Albuquerque

04-Jun-2009, 21:36

That's exactly what I was saying, you brought up the point that older people don't need anything more than a netbook.
Where did I say that? I gave an example, but I made no wide sweeping generalizations that "old people = netbook."

I was just pointing out that netbooks aren't really all that useful for a lot of older people since the screen is too small to have good legibility for them.
A lot of young people have similar issues, you don't see me saying that netbooks are crap for young people either.

You have provided just one more example of making excuses that don't apply. People who have vision difficulty won't buy a device with a small display, whether it be a netbook or a phone or a television. Why are you suggesting that they would? Do you decry cellular phones that don't provide 4" tall screens for the digits also? Do you decry alarm clocks that don't meet the 4" tall numerics for the same reason?

Do you understand why your example is flawed? Netbooks meet a growing demand for highly mobile light computing. Complaining that highly mobile light computing devices can't encode video at high bitrates and high speed, or complaining that small form factors are bad for people with bad vision, or complaining that they aren't suited for wheel chocks like your 17" luggable platform is a non-issue, because that's not the market they are intended for.

If someone with terrible myopia (like myself) who wants to encode videos with the h.264 codec in 1080P at "full speed", while also playing 3D MMORPG's in their fullest quality somehow goes to Best Buy and buys a 9" netbook, they're stupid.

Why are people complaining about how underpowered or "bad" netbooks are, when all the examples they sling at them don't even apply to that entire market?

NRP

05-Jun-2009, 16:25

silent_guy

05-Jun-2009, 16:42

Albuquerque

05-Jun-2009, 18:12

An uninformed question: Do netbooks come with MS Word/Excel?

I have a need for a laptop replacement at home, mainly for web surfing but I'd also like to take some work home with me once in a while. Would a currently available netbook meet my needs?

Most machines don't come with the Microsoft Office suite (ie, word, excel, outlook, power point, et al) unless you specifically order it at a separate cost.

As for comfortably being able to perform Word / Excel tasks and web surfing? Absolutely. My eyes are pretty shite (I'm ridiculously nearsided, to the point of legal blindness) and I still didn't mind working on a 10" HP2140 netbook. I had it loaded with the Office 2007 suite (Outlook, Word, Excel) and it had no issues. I also used it with IE7 to browse this forum and other forums, OWA (outlook web access) and a few other misc websites like YouTube and Break.com.

It was an eval unit for my company, so we had our entire image on it -- XP Pro SP3, Symantec Endpoint Protection (which is a HOG), Cisco VPN, our AT&T broadband software and USB modem, encrypting file system enabled, and all the 'standard apps' that all our machines get (Adobe Reader, Shockwave, Flash, Java, MS Communicator 2007, blah blah blah)

The only relatively slow part was just the boot process (the eleventy brazillion services we load don't help it); once booted the machine is very usable. Our HP2140 eval was an N270, 160GB drive, 1Gb ram, Intel 950 GMA setup.

NRP

05-Jun-2009, 18:33

Thanks for the input. I admit the netbook concept is pretty appealing, but I'll take a look at smaller more power efficient laptops too. However, if I can get a netbook with MS Office and long battery life, I'll likely go that route.

Blazkowicz

05-Jun-2009, 18:57

compared to older desktops with a better CPU, netbooks actually have good specs (typically pentium 3 1GHz or pentium 4 2GHz w/ 256 or 512M, and a 20GB or 40GB drive).
We've forgotten than 1GB is a large amount of ram for most tasks. And even a modern 5400 rpm 2.5" drive might be better than an old 7200 rpm with 10% the density.

Albuquerque

06-Jun-2009, 00:11

Based on bringing several of our netbook eval units home with me, my wife just purchased a Dell Mini 10v with the 6-cell battery, 160Gb drive, N270, 1Gb of ram, webcam, bluetooth, wireless and WinXP Pro for $329 incl. shipping and tax with my company's EPP discount.

For her website maintenance, photo resizing and Excel work, it's good for just a bit over 8 hours of life. The 6-cell battery is a bit obnoxious looking (not as sleek as the rest of the unit) but it actually helps quite a bit when sitting on a flat surface as it props the back of the keyboard up. For her small business traveling needs, it's absolutely perfect.

darkblu

06-Jun-2009, 16:18

a great thread there, Arun! thanks a bunch for the info-hub OP.

so the arm netbook/mid wave is finally here, eh? who'd have thought! ; )

personally, i'm glad to see the tegra (aside from the ce of which i have no use, but that's mendable). the nvidia platform goes with a well-balanced multimedia performance, which is not always true in those power-sensitive segments. and i have zero concerns of the cpu choice - a well synergized arm11 + gpu could be overall a more enjoyable platform than a more powerful cpu but crippled gpu subsystem (which may not be even the gpu's fault, but more how it's integrated).

also, i largely share Entropy's view the subject - people need real computational power on the go, and running around with a power plug does not count as such. what most people understand of 'computational power on the go' is taking out the device out of their pocket/bag, close-to-instantaneous on-line status, doing their session of browsing/light doc editing/gaming (editing photos? how about molecular synthesis?), and then stashing it away in the same instantaneous manner. the less power-supply concerns in the process - the better the experience.

yes, there will always be the power users, who may do unorthodox things with their pocketables (running specialized apps, doing sw development on the go, etc) but those users usually know exactly what they're doing, so they would hardly find themselves in situations where their hw does not meet their expectations.

Ailuros

07-Jun-2009, 07:07

I know it's OT but I fooled around the other day at work with a colleague's iPhone. The screen is still too small for my taste for browsing (despite it being amongst the largest in its league) and no zooming in isn't very practical for me. However its battery life for browsing was quite good from what I could see.

I could very well imagine that some sort of future tablet PC/MID or whatever you'd want to call it with a way larger screen could do quite well for intermediate on the go multimedia/browsing without draining the battery too much. And yes that's irrelevant to the manufacturer or the underlying technology.

pcchen

08-Jun-2009, 05:23

I know it's OT but I fooled around the other day at work with a colleague's iPhone. The screen is still too small for my taste for browsing (despite it being amongst the largest in its league) and no zooming in isn't very practical for me. However its battery life for browsing was quite good from what I could see.

iPhone can zoom in (via its famous "multi-touch"), but its reaction can be slow at times especially when browsing complex web pages.

wco81

08-Jun-2009, 05:51

It's not clear if the slow loading or sluggish response is more the data connection speed or the CPU or both.

Certainly faster processors and more RAM will help, but maybe not with the battery life.

pcchen

08-Jun-2009, 07:21

It's not clear if the slow loading or sluggish response is more the data connection speed or the CPU or both.

Certainly faster processors and more RAM will help, but maybe not with the battery life.

The slowness I mentioned is more about CPU speed, because the page was loaded completely, but it apparently took some time to render it (such as, for example, after zooming in or zooming out).

iPhone's browser is already quite "smart" in handling these. For example, when zooming in, it does a quick image based zoom in at first, which can be done quite quickly, then redraw the content later. This allows a better feel of interaction and also easier to see which portion is zoomed.

Unfortunately, the performance of WiFi connection on iPhone is not very good. For some reason it's slower than expected. But of course battery life is probably a major concern here and may take precedence over performance in design.

Ailuros

08-Jun-2009, 12:57

iPhone can zoom in (via its famous "multi-touch"), but its reaction can be slow at times especially when browsing complex web pages.

My point was that I personally wouldn't read even an article on an iPhone despite the zoom capability. For quick browsing tasks (like checking an e-mail for instance) it's adequate.

But of course battery life is probably a major concern here and may take precedence over performance in design.

I think it can last up to nearly 2 hours while browsing.

darkblu

08-Jun-2009, 23:33

My point was that I personally wouldn't read even an article on an iPhone despite the zoom capability. For quick browsing tasks (like checking an e-mail for instance) it's adequate.
i've read hundreds of pages on the iphone's browser and pdf viewer. it's quite a capable e-print device.

wco81

09-Jun-2009, 00:05

I would prefer to read on something with a larger screen too.

It's a tradeoff between pocketability and legibility.

There are a lot of eBook apps. and a lot of Mobile Safari usage.

So enough people with good eyes.

pc999

08-Jul-2009, 04:47

Sorry for the question, but how smartbooks (Snapdragon) performance is against Atom or Nano?

I just saw this

Technical Features for QSD8x50 chipsets

The QSD8x50 platform consists of the QSD8250™ which supports GSM, GPRS, EDGE, HSPA networks while the QSD8650™ supports both CDMA2000 1X, 1xEV-DO Rel 0/A/B, GSM, GPRS, EDGE, HSPA networks. Both chipsets include:
1 GHz CPU
600MHz DSP
Integrated 3G mobile broadband
Support for Wi-Fi® and Bluetooth® connectivity
Built-in seventh-generation gpsOne® engine with Standalone-GPS and Assisted-GPS modes
High-definition (720p) video decode, and multiple video codec support
High-performance 3D graphics – up to 22M triangles/sec and 133M 3D pixels/sec
High-resolution up to WXGA (1280x720) display support
12-megapixel camera support
Multiple audio codecs: (AAC+, eAAC+, AMR, FR, EFR, HR, WB-AMR, G.729a, G.711, AAC stereo encode)
Support for mobile broadcast TV (MediaFLO™, DVB-H and ISDB-T)
Support for Windows Mobile®, Android, and a number of Linux®-based operating systems
Qualcomm’s hybrid mode alternative solution

Technical Features for QSD8672 chipsets

The single-chip, dual-CPU QSD8672™ includes most of the above features, in addition to:
Dual CPUs, up to 1.5 GHz for faster response and processing
Low-power 45nm process technology for higher integration and performance
Higher-resolution WSXGA (1440 x 900) display support
High-definition (1080p) video recording and playback
Support for HSPA+ networks - 28 Mbps downloads and 11 Mbps uploads
Supports CDMA2000 1X, 1xEV-DO Rel 0/A/B networks
Improved 3D graphics - up to 80M triangles/sec and 500M+ 3D pixels/sec

http://www.qctconnect.com/products/snapdragon.html

http://www.hellosmartbook.com/

At least in the 3D it seems very high (way higer than a PS2/GC/XB), will we get last gen games in there?

How about general CPU performance in eg audio/video edition and the such? (I am "guessing" that the QSD8672 will be around twice as fast, as I think I have read somehere the ARM CPU is faster per clock)

If they are better than Atom and will really sell around 200$, there is a real chance of them getting a lot of my PC time.

Dual core in early 2010? That is really nice.

Mike11

08-Jul-2009, 06:41

Second half of 2010 looks very promising for the netbook market. And with all the new multi-core ARM Cortex-A9 SoCs and Intel's new Atoms we'll finally be able to compare the two platforms with the same OS: Google Chrome OS (I know there are other OSs that run on x86 and ARM, but nothing nearly this big).

[...] Google Chrome OS is an open source, lightweight operating system that will initially be targeted at netbooks. Later this year we will open-source its code, and netbooks running Google Chrome OS will be available for consumers in the second half of 2010. Because we're already talking to partners about the project, and we'll soon be working with the open source community, we wanted to share our vision now so everyone understands what we are trying to achieve.

Speed, simplicity and security are the key aspects of Google Chrome OS. We're designing the OS to be fast and lightweight, to start up and get you onto the web in a few seconds. The user interface is minimal to stay out of your way, and most of the user experience takes place on the web. And as we did for the Google Chrome browser, we are going back to the basics and completely redesigning the underlying security architecture of the OS so that users don't have to deal with viruses, malware and security updates. It should just work.

Google Chrome OS will run on both x86 as well as ARM chips and we are working with multiple OEMs to bring a number of netbooks to market next year. The software architecture is simple — Google Chrome running within a new windowing system on top of a Linux kernel. For application developers, the web is the platform. All web-based applications will automatically work and new applications can be written using your favorite web technologies. And of course, these apps will run not only on Google Chrome OS, but on any standards-based browser on Windows, Mac and Linux thereby giving developers the largest user base of any platform. [...]
http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/07/introducing-google-chrome-os.html

Mobius1aic

08-Jul-2009, 09:12

Well if we wanted to argue about being pushed backwards as opposed forwards in terms of technological advance, Windows Vista and Microsoft would be a prime candidate for criticism. But I guess we got to have our pretty interfaces and loads of useless features at the cost of lots of computing power right? I remember watching that video of an original Macintosh beating an Athlon x2 + 2 GB RAM based computer booting into Windows XP. Sure, it's the old Mac OS, but as far as productivity goes, we really haven't made much advance in that area, though thank god for GPU acceleration for the OS desktop. I remember waiting on the HP my family had in 1996 to load a program after clicking on the icon, then of course it could hang up as you're messing with whatever in the window. Man Windows 95 just loved to blue screen lol.

pcchen

08-Jul-2009, 13:22

pc999

08-Jul-2009, 13:51

Just to share a few of my investigations.

Freescale's i.MX515 is the first ARM- or ARM-Cortex-A8-based processor to directly target the sizzling market for netbooks. While ceding some software compatibility, netbooks based on i.MX515 should offer longer battery life, says Freescale. Performance may also lag a bit behind Atom-based systems, as Freescale is claiming 2100 Dhrystone MIPS (DMIPS) for a 1GHz netbook. Intel's top netbook chip, the N270, usually turns in about 4000 DMIPS, when clocked at 1.6GHz.

http://www.windowsfordevices.com/news/NS6893221642.html

Anyway 2100 x 1,5 x 2 = 6300 Probably better realworld performance due to OoOE.

Given that it seems like Atom already can do some basic audio production/editing/recording, this at 200$ and all the hellosmartbooks site fatures plus officce/net and gaming/multimedia and we got a winner.

If we get a cheap touchscreen version it will be my choice, I really hope it will not disapoint.

A 3-4 core version would be a blast.

Blazkowicz

08-Jul-2009, 14:36

is Google Chrome OS a classic linux distro with GNU and X11? a lightweight OS is an interesting proposition but I'm not fond of yet another platform : unix-like, windows, google android and chrome OS, that's too much choice.

frogblast

08-Jul-2009, 16:47

comment removed

pc999

18-Sep-2009, 18:10

TechRadar recently spoke with embedded core designer ARM Ltd. in regards to its new 2 GHz multicore Cortex-A9 mobile processor. The company revealed that it is currently developing dual-core, quad-core, and eight-core processor designs for the mobile, netbook and smartbook markets

http://www.tomsguide.com/us/ARM-Netbooks-Gaming-Osprey-Cortex-A9,news-4667.html

rpg.314

18-Sep-2009, 19:20

I want a dual core arm 2GHz, octa core sgx543 with 4gb ram in my netbook. :) :)

PS: Is it too much to ask for? :)

Ailuros

20-Sep-2009, 21:52

I want a dual core arm 2GHz, octa core sgx543 with 4gb ram in my netbook. :) :)

PS: Is it too much to ask for? :)

Not really; question is who's going to build such an SoC.

Ailuros

23-Oct-2009, 09:19

rpg.314

23-Oct-2009, 10:48

[nVidia selected Cortex-A9 for their next generation Tegra part, so no GeForce subsystem can be combined]

Whyyyy? Does ARM force you to use IMG/ARM IP with their CPU IP?

Arun

23-Oct-2009, 10:52

http://www.brightsideofnews.com/news/2009/10/22/arms-3228nm-chips-take-the-center-stage.aspx

http://www.brightsideofnews.com/news/2009/10/21/arm-announces-cortex-a5-for-the-next-15-billion-cellphones-and-mids.aspx (http://www.brightsideofnews.com/news/2009/10/21/arm-announces-cortex-a5-for-the-next-15-billion-cellphones-and-mids.aspx)I'm honestly surprised that ARM is making so much noise about the A5 as a "MID" product. It's a nice improvement over the ARM9 and ARM11, don't get me wrong: 20% higher perf with a significantly smaller area than the ARM11 is impressive. But the A9 is already just that little box in the corner of the chip in Tegra's case; the cost advantage of an A5 would be small relative to the performance penalty.

It's a great chip for lower-end products and guarantees them that they'll get many new licenses instead of people just reusing ARM11 everywhere, but I think ARM is getting carried away in their marketing. A size comparison with an Atom is laughable given its performance level. Their only true competitor against Atom, and an extremely strong one at that, is the Cortex-A9. That dual-core 2GHz Osprey is certainly very very impressive IMO, and proves that it'd be a great chip on 40G (rather than just 40LP).

The only way for ARM to penetrate desktops though, rather than just netbooks, is for Google's Chrome OS to be a great success. Windows 7.5/8, even if it was ported to ARM, would be useless without any application; so unless ARM figures out a way to accelerate x86->ARM transcoding (ala that Chinese CPU?), that is never going to happen, period. I'm quite optimistic about Chrome OS (and I guess Ubuntu might carve itself a small niche too) so we'll see; I'm pretty sure it won't be a fast thing though. BTW, MIPS is also hoping that Android/Chrome will help them penetrate new markets, although I'm a skeptical of them managing to do it in practice.

As for 32/28nm: remember ARM isn't just a processor IP vendor: they also sell physical IP. It's in that context that they are making those test chips; it's interesting data, but I wouldn't make too much of it. Also despite all the hype, for a given performance level it's still pretty frequent for leakage to go down. AFAIK, the basic problem is that it's not going down as fast as die area and is preventing real-world clock frequency increases.

EDIT: And of course that Cortex-A9/GeForce exclusion is bullshit, as usual. Don't bother reading more than the presentation slides :p

Ailuros

23-Oct-2009, 11:16

Thanks for elaborating Arun ;)

roninja

23-Oct-2009, 16:36

Whyyyy? Does ARM force you to use IMG/ARM IP with their CPU IP?

Friendly British collaboration perhaps?

Ailuros

24-Oct-2009, 06:20

Friendly British collaboration perhaps?

I don't think so; ARM was pretty pissed with IMG when the latter decided to sell its IP on its own. Now that ARM has its own graphics IP from their ex-Falanx graphics department, they'd be pretty dumb IMO if they wouldn't push primarily the inhouse IP.

roninja

24-Oct-2009, 23:44

I don't think so; ARM was pretty pissed with IMG when the latter decided to sell its IP on its own. Now that ARM has its own graphics IP from their ex-Falanx graphics department, they'd be pretty dumb IMO if they wouldn't push primarily the inhouse IP.

I don't disagree but it seems interesting that IMG were re-invited to ARM devcon this year.

Lazy8s

26-Oct-2009, 01:21

Imgtec are still a significant supplier/partner within the ecosystem of ARM development regardless that ARM now considers them a major rival. Imgtec wouldn't ever be barred from attendance.

rpg.314

26-Oct-2009, 16:43

http://www.electronicsweekly.com/blogs/david-manners-semiconductor-blog/2009/10/where-is-the-arm-based-netbook.html

I am disappointed. It seems hard to believe now that good (ie non-crippled) ARM netbooks will be on the market, considering that they'll have to fight the MS and Intel bribes.:oops:

rpg.314

26-Oct-2009, 16:45

Time for an ARM's anti-trust lawsuit against Intel? :)

darkblu

26-Oct-2009, 17:47

Arun

26-Oct-2009, 18:14

FWIW, my response to David's post (awaiting moderation):
David, the problem is both you (and possibly Marvell too) are looking at the wrong places. This video will give you a very big hint of who is the real early customer for those ODM designs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9aE3ubx7h8 - there's a higher-res version of that somewhere on the net where you can see the name of all the carriers, but I couldn't find it.

At the end of the day, there will be three OSes for ARM netbooks: Chrome OS, WinCE, and Ubuntu. Anyone claiming anything else has a chance to penetrate more than a few percent of that market is delusional, IMO. And of course, that's the other problem: on that list, the first (and most interesting) option is far from ready and ARM Ubuntu arguably isn't completely there yet either.

While I am definitely convinced that operators are a good 'go to market' strategy for ARM netbooks for a multitude of reasons (good distribution channel where you've got a more direct contact with your customer for example and interest in solutions that are limited, as long as they are limited in the 'right way'), I am very worried that they might screw up the subscription model.

It's fine to expect the customer to be locked to a 3G contract in exchange for for an even cheaper product ($49?) - but it's not fine for that contract to be a 2 year one when it's essentially a disposable product IMO, and this also moves this even further away from impulsive buy territory.

Frankly, I think companies like NVIDIA/Freescale/Qualcomm should just have sold some self-branded netbooks themselves (low volume is OK, 10-25K?) as ways to excite the market and get OEMs looking at it more seriously. Now the plan is for carrier sales to do that, but the problem is those keep getting delayed. The Tegra-based Mobinnova Elan was supposed to be sold by early carriers this year, but now they claim it'll happen at CES 2010. This better be the last delay...

There's still a chance some other Tegra or Snapdragon-based netbook will start selling in some obscure region of the world this year, but I'm skeptical. The OEMs have clearly dropped the ball on this one, and the carriers are on good track to follow suit. I guess evil scheming could play some part in the OEM reaction, but when it comes to carriers the delays are more a question of them being inherently slow to do things, in addition to often being incompetent.

Let's hope 2010 will be a better year. Maybe carriers will deliver. Maybe NVIDIA will even manage to get Tegra2 netbooks (2xCortex-A9) out in 2H10 as they were and still are hoping. Maybe others might also deliver on their goals and maybe OEMs will finally get it. Or maybe not.

Ailuros

27-Oct-2009, 06:43

http://www.brightsideofnews.com/news/2009/10/26/pc-graphics-market-expands-by-massive-21225-in-3q-2009.aspx

When it comes to eternal battle of integrated vs. discrete graphics, netbooks are the reason for majority of market share. Jon Peddie was quoted saying "Integrated graphics in notebooks, which includes the popular netbooks, increased 27% over 2Q - a great gain but less than discrete [57% growth over 2Q 2009]. Netbooks will remain popular but they will not have the high market share they had during the recession when they were just introduced. Rather, consumers are expected to "buy up" in the next quarter. "

rpg.314

27-Oct-2009, 06:48

ARM smartbooks are coming, despite intel's kicking and screaming. if a few enthusiast like the pandora team can produce a fully-functional consumer-targeted ARM handheld (despite all turmoil the project's been through), and all the embedded heavyweights (TI, freescale, qualcomm, marvell) have full production lines centered on the architecture (actually have had for some time now), Yeah, TI, Qualcomm etc. are all behind ARM netbooks, but they don't sell them. Dell and HP do, and the latter have to sell atom based win7 netbooks as well. :???:

intel are desperately trying to persuade the world only they know how to build 'personal computer' chipsets

To me, looks like both MS and intel are trying that. WinCE is going to have nowhere near the margins of Win7. Also, if ARM takes off, that automatically means they have some serious competition to worry about.

Google here seems to be the only player (from the sw side) that will push for ARM netbooks like crazy and actually has the power to do the heavy lifting.

Frankly, I think companies like NVIDIA/Freescale/Qualcomm should just have sold some self-branded netbooks themselves (low volume is OK, 10-25K?) as ways to excite the market and get OEMs looking at it more seriously.

Do you think nv wants to lose the zune hd 2 contract? :wink:

Now the plan is for carrier sales to do that, but the problem is those keep getting delayed. The Tegra-based Mobinnova Elan was supposed to be sold by early carriers this year, but now they claim it'll happen at CES 2010. This better be the last delay...

By then Atom platform might have improved a bit. Pineview/moorestowm/whatever (not keeping up with intel's codenames here) is supposed to come out at CES 2010 as well. So, the evil scheming might just be a ploy to slow down the introduction of competitors for now.

Ailuros

27-Oct-2009, 07:47

Do you think nv wants to lose the zune hd 2 contract? :wink:

No IHV would ever want to lose any contract, that's for sure. I don't see though what the above has to do with what he's proposing. And no I don't agree to it since it would cost the firms he suggests a large pile of resources. which I still consider as a bad investment unless of course any of them would want to play the role of the SoC and OEM manufacturer at the same time.

Deals can be lost for many unpredictable reasons and there are hardly any guarantees for anything.

rpg.314

27-Oct-2009, 08:33

No IHV would ever want to lose any contract, that's for sure. I merely meant that MS might be pressurizing nv into delaying their netbook launch.

Anyway, it seems clear that there will be no ARM netbooks in 2009.

pc999

27-Oct-2009, 13:23

Really I don't see any reason (in fair market) for ARM Netbooks to not be a success.

Just look at typical netbooks, 80% of people only use it for more than cheap and/or portable internet/multimedia/Office.

That said ARM netbook will be better at all of this:

1- they are cheaper, also must Linux distrus use less resources than XP (specially in RAM, the Ubuntu one uses around 200MB running Open Office), and already take all the software you want, for free.

2- they are much more portable, they can last one day in full work.

3- better multimedia, without a big hit on performance and portability.

4- as good productivity it really can do almost anything must people want.

The big disadvantages are:

1- it is not windows, but if anyone used Moblin or Ubuntu netbook edition can easily think that it will be easy to overcome with the right marketing

2- no real pro software that people are used to, like ProTools, Photoshop, although most dont really use them on a netbook and there is free alternatives to all of them (but they still take some time to learn)

Anyway my point is more than 50% of netbook or even PC users could as easily use a ARM netbook with a good Linux distro without any worry and find it a lot better & cheaper (making it a lot of value).

Personally I think that (if the quad core 2Ghz=medium PC) they can even have a chance in the desktop market with small/cheaper/prettier office/internet/multimedia PCs, but it is a longer shot.

So it will all rely in good marketing and fair market.

Ailuros

27-Oct-2009, 13:46

I merely meant that MS might be pressurizing nv into delaying their netbook launch.

I'm a sci-fi fan too for the record ;)

Anyway, it seems clear that there will be no ARM netbooks in 2009.

SoC integration takes time.

rpg.314

27-Oct-2009, 17:07

SoC integration takes time.

I dunno:???:, all these nice little things were out at computex. Marvell says they are good-to-go, just waiting for sticker stampers. In nv's case, Arun has been consistent that nv does a lot of heavy lifting for their customers, but tegra-books are still nowhere to be seen.

Bottomline, they certainly look like having got delayed, no idea about what caused it.

Ailuros

27-Oct-2009, 17:28

I dunno:???:, all these nice little things were out at computex. Marvell says they are good-to-go, just waiting for sticker stampers. In nv's case, Arun has been consistent that nv does a lot of heavy lifting for their customers, but tegra-books are still nowhere to be seen.

Bottomline, they certainly look like having got delayed, no idea about what caused it.

NVIDIA has most likely the advantage to be earlier ready with the SoCs than many of the large semiconductor manufacturers they're competing with. Whatever "heavy lifting" stands for in the given case it's obviously not speeding up OEM manufacturers' time to market.

rpg.314

27-Oct-2009, 18:03

May be TI/Qualcomm/Freescale/nv/whatever should just pay system76 (http://www.system76.com/) to put out somethings out there to kick-start the market :)

Arun

27-Oct-2009, 18:18

Talking of Ubuntu, there's a presentation for NV that mentions that their OS support list for Tegra is now (in a random order, not the original one): Android/Windows Mobile/Windows CE/Chrome/Ubuntu. There were some other guys working on ARM Linux distributions but I'm not sure how they could compete at this point, TBH. As for NVIDIA's module approach (and SW work) not helping OEMs get to market faster - I'm not sure that's fair to say until we see actual products on the market so we can compare the timeframes.

I'll be curious to see how aggressively TI pushes OMAP4 for this market - in theory it's well suited for it, in practice given the large amount of competition at this point it's not clear whether they will or even should bother. We'll see.

Ailuros

27-Oct-2009, 18:33

dZeus

27-Oct-2009, 20:09

Considering TI's largest customer NOKIA went to Intel, I doubt too that they'll bother at all. I'm much more interested at this point what Intel is planning and how crapalicious the drivers will be *cough*

but why did Nokia go with Intel again? I mean, Booklet 3G looks nice and all, but it's not that different from other netbooks on the market? Other than trying to imitate Apple's style and battery life.

If they'd gone with ARM I'd been really interested, provided battery time would have been significantly better to (e.g. 18+ hours vs. 12 hours claimed for booklet 3G).

I can hardly imagine it's just because of the OS that they've gone with Intel, as it would be a nice incentive to scale Maemo up a bit too.

Oh well, I suppose Apple will be the first large player on the ARM side with their upcoming tablet. Hopefully it'll feature an IPS or AMOLED screen :)

darkblu

28-Oct-2009, 03:28

but why did Nokia go with Intel again? I mean, Booklet 3G looks nice and all, but it's not that different from other netbooks on the market? Other than trying to imitate Apple's style and battery life.

If they'd gone with ARM I'd been really interested, provided battery time would have been significantly better to (e.g. 18+ hours vs. 12 hours claimed for booklet 3G).

I can hardly imagine it's just because of the OS that they've gone with Intel, as it would be a nice incentive to scale Maemo up a bit too.

Oh well, I suppose Apple will be the first large player on the ARM side with their upcoming tablet. Hopefully it'll feature an IPS or AMOLED screen :)
the difference between apple and nokia is that apple are in possession of a complete software ecosystem; nokia are usually struggling with their consumer-targeted software, and as such _need_ a flashy 3rd party's (read: ms') consumer-oriented software stack. and an android smartbook alternative does not stand before nokia, as apparently they consider the latter the devil, i.e. they'd rather release a wintel device than one powered by android.

Ailuros

28-Oct-2009, 04:47

I don't disagree darkblu, but NOKIA never wanted in the past either to depend on just one semiconductor manufacturer. Meaning that it's most likely a mix of different reasons.

Laurent06

28-Oct-2009, 09:24

I'll be curious to see how aggressively TI pushes OMAP4 for this market - in theory it's well suited for it, in practice given the large amount of competition at this point it's not clear whether they will or even should bother. We'll see.
The diagrams I've seen of OMAP4 lack something that I think is important for netbooks: SATA.

Arun

28-Oct-2009, 09:49

The diagrams I've seen of OMAP4 lack something that I think is important for netbooks: SATA.Hmm, I'll admit to still be confused about what exactly a mobile chip needs to support to be able to handle some kind of HDD; it seems CE-ATA (used in 1.8" drives ala iPod Classic) is physically and electrically compatible with MMC, which is also used for SD cards (so you'd just need a separate controller). However I'm far from convinced my understanding of that is correct...

Either way most of these ARM netbooks will use flash, just like nearly all of the lower-priced netbooks. The latter often use 'SDDs', i.e. over a PATA interface, but if you've got a native flash interface I fail to see why you'd want to use anything else. Well, except in Tegra's case where they've got a separate NAND controller chip on the Zune HD; I still have no idea what's up with that either, although I suspect MS wanted to be able to use 3-bit/cell NAND for cost reasons and Tegra didn't support that natively. I haven't seen any of the teardowns give any information about the NAND chips except the brands/densities, so I can't be certain.

wrt Nokia going with Intel: remember Intel also bought 3G modem IP from Nokia to integrate into their modems and it looks like they're going to use Moorestown to some extent. BTW, I believe that modem IP deal proves only that Intel's management is governed by buzzwords and fails utterly at understanding the deeper dynamics of the industry. Not that different from Nokia, then...

While we're talking about Nokia, I like how nobody realized they were the first handset manufacturer using 45nm chips by a long shot - it's as if nobody could make a connection between their 600MHz/10.2Mbps chip and the TI chip described in this article: http://www.eetimes.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=206102066 - that's about the only positive thing I can say about Nokia right now though. BTW, TI is pretty much out of every Nokia socket in the mid-term except Maemo, where OMAP3/OMAP4 will probably have completely exclusivity for quite a while. Which brings up the question of what baseband chip they're going to use in future designs - and I know the answer, but I'd have to kill you ;)

rpg.314

28-Oct-2009, 09:52

Good point. That would seem to exclude TI from the list of arm netbook soc's though.

On second thoughts, I doubt tegra has sata either. They'll prolly use a bridge chip aor something like that. Or may be they'll just use the in built flash controller to interface with a bunch of flash IC's onboard. Capacity of the flash you can support his way could be a problem though.

Arun

28-Oct-2009, 12:17

On second thoughts, I doubt tegra has sata either. They'll prolly use a bridge chip aor something like that. Or may be they'll just use the in built flash controller to interface with a bunch of flash IC's onboard. Capacity of the flash you can support his way could be a problem though.Tegra has IDE support, afaik through CE-ATA (see my earlier post on my lack of understanding on the real cost of CE-ATA). As for capacity with on-board NAND - I'm not sure why. The iPod Touch goes up to 64GB now for example; do you really expect anyone to integrate significantly more than that in a cheap netbook?

rpg.314

28-Oct-2009, 12:58

Tegra has IDE support, afaik through CE-ATA (see my earlier post on my lack of understanding on the real cost of CE-ATA). As for capacity with on-board NAND - I'm not sure why. The iPod Touch goes up to 64GB now for example; do you really expect anyone to integrate significantly more than that in a cheap netbook?

I didn't know about the on-chip capacity. 64GB is pretty much the limit though.

INKster

28-Oct-2009, 14:09

I don't disagree darkblu, but NOKIA never wanted in the past either to depend on just one semiconductor manufacturer. Meaning that it's most likely a mix of different reasons.

Synergy between Moblin OS and Maemo OS software development is another strong focus point of their alliance, not necessarily just the sharing of hardware components and wireless IP.
Linux distros on ARM and low-speed x86 for smartphones, MID's and netbooks still have plenty of maturing to do.

Manabu

29-Oct-2009, 02:31

I'll be curious to see how aggressively TI pushes OMAP4 for this market - in theory it's well suited for it, in practice given the large amount of competition at this point it's not clear whether they will or even should bother. We'll see.
Well, it seems it will not push at all:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=ausdfSe0vOc0

TI seems afraid of Wintel and will try to hang strongly it's position where they think that Intel has no chance to win: the smartphone market. So, no expenditure to make OMAP4 chip more attractive to netbooks. At least, not for a while...

An interesting quote from the interview: “I’ve watched companies like AMD spend their whole lives in a full front assault [against Intel] and I don’t have any interest in trying to do that,”

At least, ARM is not so afraid of Intel. They really geared up this year. Look at last 30 days news alone. Lots of work with foundries for 32nm and beyond and the 2ghz Cortex A9 hard-macro. This last one is a clear sign that ARM is aiming at the new Intel's territory.

The Cortex A9 wasn't meant for go so high in clock speed, especialy in multicore. It was designed for smartphones and set-top boxes, as you can see in the original press release of A9 in 2007. Then Asus/Intel created the netbook market, and it was an opportunity and a threat to ARM. The netbooks do not canibalize only notebooks, but also smaller internet tablets powered by ARM chips, for example. Intel also announced it's plans for smartphone processors. ARM tried to stay away from intel, but this is clearly not possible anymore, and they are up to the challenge.

The thing I'm hopping for now is an announcement of an Cortex A11 64bit architeture, soon. For servers, and even net/notebooks in 2012~14, being able do address +4GB of memory is an must. MIPS already have an 64 bit architeture out for an while...

rpg.314

29-Oct-2009, 05:27

Intel recently allowed 2GB of RAM in netbooks with pinetrail. So 64 bit netbooks will be here before 2012.

I think the real non-x86 netbook revolution will have to wait for Chrome OS to take off. IOW, an OS designed to run off the internet in crucial ways. That will be necessary to get rid of the ISA lock in. Not sure how successful MIPS and PowerPC will be in this regard though.

Manabu

29-Oct-2009, 13:14

Yeah, Intel will probably be the first with +4GB netbooks, but I don't think it will be a "must" for some time. Remember that we are entering the "good enough computing era", so computer requirements will probably grow slower than the means to provide it. That is actually the only reason why ARM will be competing with intel, because it is still light years away from nehalem chips.

I have an Phenon X4 with 4GB of ram, but I'm still using XP 32bits out of laziness. It is rare for me to use more than 2GB of ram. I understand that Win Vista and Win 7 for example "help" you to easily fill-up 1GB of your memory at boot-time, but even then, 2~3GB of ram is plentiful for basic netbook tasks today.

Cheap 2~3GB ARM based netbooks will still rock in 2012, but by 2013 even for cheper netbooks it may be too low. I'm actually more worried if the processing power of even 2Ghz A9 quadcores will be good in 2012... the hypothetical Cortex A11 would have also to address this issue.

And actually I'm not much excited by Chrome OS... all apps runing only in browser interpreted
environment on an ARM CPU... It will be slow, and I don't trust in chrome's stability and security compared to any mature OS kernel, like linux's one. And how to call Eigen2 to accelerate things in ChromeOS, for example? I hope that it will be easy to "webbreak" ChromeOS netbooks. I hope for Ubuntu's port, or Maemo, or something like that.

rpg.314

29-Oct-2009, 14:37

Yeah, Intel will probably be the first with +4GB netbooks, but I don't think it will be a "must" for some time. Remember that we are entering the "good enough computing era", so computer requirements will probably grow slower than the means to provide it. That is actually the only reason why ARM will be competing with intel, because it is still light years away from nehalem chips. Bloat always increases to take up all the RAM available. :)

Cheap 2~3GB ARM based netbooks will still rock in 2012, but by 2013 even for cheper netbooks it may be too low. I'm actually more worried if the processing power of even 2Ghz A9 quadcores will be good in 2012... the hypothetical Cortex A11 would have also to address this issue.

Quad core A9 @2GHz would be pretty good actually, even in 2012, as you said, we are entering the era of godd enough computing.

And actually I'm not much excited by Chrome OS... all apps runing only in browser interpreted
environment on an ARM CPU... It will be slow, and I don't trust in chrome's stability and security compared to any mature OS kernel, like linux's one.

V8 is mighty fast with javascript, so I am not concerned with the performance atm.
And Chrome OS is based around the linux kernel. :)

And how to call Eigen2 to accelerate things in ChromeOS, for example? Most of the apps are web apps, that does not mean that there will be no native code apps at all. The browser, for a start is a native app. You will certainly be able to write native apps in chrome OS.

I hope that it will be easy to "webbreak" ChromeOS netbooks. I hope for Ubuntu's port, or Maemo, or something like that.

There will be no need to xyz-break anything in Chrome OS. I will be opensource, Prolly, Apache 2.0 licensed.

Arun

29-Oct-2009, 14:42

You will certainly be able to write native apps in chrome OS.Any link? Because TBH I'm skeptical of that. At the very least I think it's clear there won't be a "Native App Store" for Chrome OS.

rpg.314

29-Oct-2009, 14:57

There may not be a native app store for Chrome OS, but you won't need google's permission to install native sw on chrome, will you? And what are the odds, no body will fork it if google gets pesky about things like that?

Infact, Debian ships with Iceweasel instead of firefox just because they don't like Mozilla's trademark crap.

Mike11

30-Oct-2009, 06:18

Cheap 2~3GB ARM based netbooks will still rock in 2012, but by 2013 even for cheper netbooks it may be too low. I'm actually more worried if the processing power of even 2Ghz A9 quadcores will be good in 2012... the hypothetical Cortex A11 would have also to address this issue.
Is there even gonna be a Cortex A11? I thought the ARMv8 architecture was already planned for the 22nm process. So is there a need for a Cortex A11 as ARM's High-End CPU after the Quad-core A9 in 32nm/28nm and before ARMv8's introduction in 22nm?

And actually I'm not much excited by Chrome OS... all apps runing only in browser interpreted
environment on an ARM CPU... It will be slow, and I don't trust in chrome's stability and security compared to any mature OS kernel, like linux's one. And how to call Eigen2 to accelerate things in ChromeOS, for example? I hope that it will be easy to "webbreak" ChromeOS netbooks. I hope for Ubuntu's port, or Maemo, or something like that.
I don't think that performance should be a problem for a Chrome OS Netbook with a 2GHz dual-core Cortex-A9 and a SGX54x (plus VXD etc.). At least with custom Chrome OS applications, even with almost everything running in the Chrome Browser, if that's in fact what Google is gonna do. Google's Chrome Browser already has (experimental) support for Google's Native Client, O3D and WebGL etc. HTML5, Gears, V8 and upcoming support for Flash on ARM doesn't hurt either. So IMHO Web-apps and custom packaged offline apps from their app store should be able to run fine (assuming software and drivers are optimized for these extended web standards). Palm's WebOS already does something similar.

Laurent06

30-Oct-2009, 07:33

Is there even gonna be a Cortex A11? I thought the ARMv8 architecture was already planned for the 22nm process. So is there a need for a Cortex A11 as ARM's High-End CPU after the Quad-core A9 in 32nm/28nm and before ARMv8's introduction in 22nm?
Why do you think there's a relationship between an ARM architecture (ARMv8) and a process? These are not related (unless of course the spec is so huge, an design using it couldn't fit on a particular process :grin:).

Blazkowicz

30-Oct-2009, 09:01

Cheap 2~3GB ARM based netbooks will still rock in 2012, but by 2013 even for cheper netbooks it may be too low. I'm actually more worried if the processing power of even 2Ghz A9 quadcores will be good in 2012... the hypothetical Cortex A11 would have also to address this issue.

These specs are good enough for a multi-user machine :). Exciting tech. imagine a computer with that much cpu and ram running debian or ubuntu lts on an SSD (or google OS?), an amount of < 5W thin clients (3 to 8), a low-footprint OLED display plugged on each machine (should be a reality by then) and here you have a computer room for an african village or a community living on an ecological lifestyle, serving computing needs from a single affordable photo-voltaics panel.

12" (or what the trend is) OLED netbooks with such high specs are a good prospect too.

I have a very pessimistic mindset about the development of technology in other domains (giant wind farms, hybrid cars, GMOs : lures!)
But the near-future of computing gives me hope. We're talking about the highest technology ever built (28nm, 22nm semiconductors), which allows both to scale back power by an order of magnitude (from <100W to <10W servers and computers), and bring access to independant media and the whole humanity's knowledge to the masses, all around the planet.

A technology that can empower the people from humanity's 80% bottom brass.

Mike11

30-Oct-2009, 09:18

Why do you think there's a relationship between an ARM architecture (ARMv8) and a process? These are not related (unless of course the spec is so huge, an design using it couldn't fit on a particular process :grin:).

Maybe I misunderstood, but that's how ARM talked about it. At least according to the article I read a while ago:
ARMv8 instruction set will be application driven, says exec

LONDON — ARM Holdings plc is working on a next-generation instruction set architecture to be the basis for a future set of processor cores. When introduced its capabilities and its extensions to the current architecture – ARMv7 – will be driven by applications and partners, according to a senior company executive.

However, it is not certain that the instruction set will be introduced in the 32-nm/28-nm process node for which ARM (Cambridge, England) is developing an SoC design platform.

"I don't think it is necessary for us to move to ARMv8," said Simon Segars, general manager of ARM's physical IP division. Segars said that there is plenty of scope for the current generation of ARM processor cores to take advantage of increased performance and reduced power consumption offered by the 28-nm nodes being worked on by both the IBM Common Platform group and foundry Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Co. Ltd. [...]
http://www.eetimes.eu/210700147