Rumor: body sensing motion control for 360 coming

[Rangers]

Engadget (http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/01/xbox-360-to-get-motion-sensing-add-on-with-full-body-game-contro/)

Combine with this (http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/977/977287p1.html) by Don Matrick

"Microsoft is gearing up for a big presence at E3 which will completely transform how people think about home entertainment. We're excited about the momentum that is building in the industry in anticipation of our June 1st media briefing, which will kick off E3 in blockbuster style."



The bolded part strongly suggests to me more than simply showing more hardcore games.

Further, rumors (http://news.spong.com/article/15687/Xbox_360_to_get_Minority_Report-Style_Interface) at E3 2008 specifically mentioned a "minority report style" interface for 360. Of course those rumors didn't pan out, just as these might not, but it certainly dovetails with the new Engadget rumor.

Edit: I suppose this might be more appropriate for the console forum? I'm not sure, mods move as fit..

[grandmaster]

I've no doubt that it's real. However, I'm equally in no doubt that Microsoft has a penchant for hyperbole: http://www.vg247.com/2008/10/16/greenberg-nxe-is-the-biggest-moment-in-the-history-of-the-internet”/

[Quaz51]

3D camera

[NRP]

I think all the hoopla about "motion sensing" controls is ridiculous . . . just hype to start a new fad, or to try and jump on the Wii bandwagon. Unless we're talking about virtual reality controls, all this motion sensing buzz won't lead anywhere, at least not for MS and Sony.

[Shifty Geezer]

IMO it won't lead anywhere for MS full-stop, no matter how great it is, because they have no capacity to deliver on novel control schemes. Their camera games are a flop. Their microphone game is a flop. They haven't managed to get anything interesting going in the peripheral front. Sony haven't been too successful this gen, but at least have EyeToy and some motion sensing going for them. But MS have nothing. Best case, they'll have a new tech that can follow movement, then create some shambolic game that is no fun and everyone will bypass it. The only hope for MS to get something novel and worth using is to find some 3rd party who's already got a fabulous track record and buy them.

Such as my view, I have zero excitement for this rumour, because I expect it to amount to nothing. I have similar expectations of the rumoured PS3 3D motion seventeenaxis controller.

[BadTB25]

I have to agree.

I'll try to keep an open mind about it, but I have almost zero excitement about this rumour.

[AzBat]

I have more excitement for the Gametrak Freedom motion controller than this. I still want something in my hand to control. Just using your hands or arms doesn't thrill me as much.

Tommy McClain

[Inquisitive_Idiot]

Has it been confirmed that there will be in fact no motion controller to go along with this device? If this is just some EyeToy type device than I am not that interested in it, however, if it mixes EyeToy with WiiMote and other 3D motion sensing capabilities then that would be pretty interesting.

Like several others mentioned earlier in the thread, Microsoft probably does not have the first party capability to create unique or even revolutionary games like Nintendo did with the Wii ______ series games. What I think they might attempt to do is make a WiiMote, EyeToy type device and attach a Halo game to it (the Peter Jackson game anyone) and let the third parties do the rest from there on out. If it is a device intended to replace traditional controllers on the 360, then we may even see it have some backwards compatibility features. Playing Halo 3 with IR would be great, and I could see them bundling it with Halo ODST to attract people.

EDIT: Just read the Engadget article and yeah it does specifically mention an absense of a controller, which does not make sense to me. For instance, how would you aim in an FPS, or how would you move your character around the world in a game with this device?

[AzBat]

The quote which will completely transform how people think about home entertainment to me means it's no way geared for hardcore players. So it not having a controller would fit. I still think it's a bad idea even for the casual player. If they're trying to get the Wii demographic without a remote like controller, they will most doubtedly fail.

Tommy McClain

[Shifty Geezer]

For instance, how would you aim in an FPS, or how would you move your character around the world in a game with this device?
As AzBat mentions, not for the existing userbase at all. Something for Wii-games. I fear really tacky party games, an 'At The Movies' style implementation of WiiSports that has the player waving their arms around and the character on-screen vaguely glitching in response.

[Silent_Buddha]

The quote which will completely transform how people think about home entertainment to me means it's no way geared for hardcore players. So it not having a controller would fit. I still think it's a bad idea even for the casual player. If they're trying to get the Wii demographic without a remote like controller, they will most doubtedly fail.

Tommy McClain

However, if they can get the control "good enough" it would be a hit for Fitness type games. Imagine something like Wii Fit except with complete freedom from a controller that you have to physically use. It would certainly be a far better fitness program, but will they be able to capture the imagination of casuals that the Wii does?

Or some of the more casual genre's that are a hit on the Wii. I can see where this might be particularly well suited to social party type games.

Combine that with the lower price of the X360 arcade and you can see why MS might be trying really hard to dip into that.

I'll have the wait and see though. I'm as skeptical about this as I was about the whole Wii motion control gimmick before it was implemented.

So just like Wii Motion controls (prior to Wii actually being released), I don't think it has much appeal. But who knows maybe it'll surprise me like the Wii ended up doing.

Imagine surfing the web completely by hand gestures. Grabbing and moving elements of the X360 UI with your hand from your couch. Fast forward a movie with a wave of your hand. Pausing a movie/music track but sticking your hand out palm out (like you would using your hand to indicate someone should stop).

The potential is there for something completely revolutionary and world changing. I have serious doubts as to whether MS (or Sony, or Nintendo) can implement something like that at this time.

Regards,
SB

[Rendszer]

Well, the engadget rumour coupled with the one below can make sense:

http://www.techradar.com/news/gaming/rumour-microsoft-s-new-mo-control-better-than-wii-532845
-----

Now, let´s see how this pans out, but if true and if handled correctly, it can make the Xbox arcade + this pack like a sweet deal compared to the wii.

Now its all about the software..

[Shifty Geezer]

However, if they can get the control "good enough" it would be a hit for Fitness type games. Imagine something like Wii Fit except with complete freedom from a controller that you have to physically use. It would certainly be a far better fitness program, but will they be able to capture the imagination of casuals that the Wii does?
http://www.eyetoykinetic.com/en_GB/index.html

Imagine surfing the web completely by hand gestures. Grabbing and moving elements of the X360 UI with your hand from your couch. Fast forward a movie with a wave of your hand. Pausing a movie/music track but sticking your hand out palm out (like you would using your hand to indicate someone should stop).Well that to a good degree (theoretically and in-the-laboratory) is already attainable with the XB camera. The primary issue with the listed features is background removal, so only the player has control. It was interesting prior to 'At The Movies' that the EyeToy crew said background removal didn't work, and were proven right. Sony have been tooting Minority Report interfaces longer than anyone without ever delivering, so I guess it's hard to pull off. MS must have something very advanced to manage this, and given that they said they had background removal working in 'At The Movies' when they patently didn't, and LIPS registers a perfect scores for scraping the microphone over the carpet, I can't say I'm confident whatever system they present will actually work.

[Graham]

At first I had a similar reaction to what many others here probably had.. One of concern this was just going to be a gimmick.

However I'm actually coming round to it's potential.
The point I realised 'hey, this might just work' was while watching this video for ArmA II for the PC. It all comes down to what peoples expectations are for the uses of the tech:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wXx3vMy_AQ (Highly recommended watch).

They also made me think of the old wii hack videos, of changing perspective.
Something like this wouldn't be a play for the casual market, and really, really could be a game changer. It all depends on the implementations and accuracy.

[grandmaster]

Aren't there rumours of Fight Night Round 4 compatibility? Might be an interesting comparison with Wii Sports boxing.

Otherwise I generally agree that Microsoft doesn't have Nintendo or Sony's experience in producing truly mainstream games.

[pc999]

It could be a very interesting device, leading to great games, but if it is just what they say it seems to have litle potential for refining hardercore games.

Anyway it seems really interesting.

[patsu]

I think anything that simplifies gaming is a move in the right direction.

Things to get gamers to exercise more is a plus too :-P

At first I had a similar reaction to what many others here probably had.. One of concern this was just going to be a gimmick.

However I'm actually coming round to it's potential.
The point I realised 'hey, this might just work' was while watching this video for ArmA II for the PC. It all comes down to what peoples expectations are for the uses of the tech:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wXx3vMy_AQ (Highly recommended watch).


If the view panning is very responsive, it can be useful. Otherwise it may take extra time to align your aim to where you look. In a hot zone, I'd just move and aim where I look. Flight games would be the best fit since there are ample space and time for manuveure (I believe Warhawk implemented independent view mechanics using SIXAXIS, but it's more clunky)

Independent head movement may also be great for exploration and puzzle solving games too (like Uncharted !). So I think it can be interesting for traditional (hardcore or not) video games if used correctly.


They also made me think of the old wii hack videos, of changing perspective.
Something like this wouldn't be a play for the casual market, and really, really could be a game changer. It all depends on the implementations and accuracy.

I think it all depends on the application and whether MS markets this at the fundamental level.

PS Eye does motion sensing pretty well (though not as responsive as I liked). They released PS Eye head tracking a couple of months ago (e.g., in a sample Quiz show game). But if it's just an isolated application, the impact would be unnecessarily subdued.

For full body motion, it's rather tiring to play on a big screen (compared to a regular LCD monitor) because *unexpectedly* larger movement is needed. We ended up having 4-5 grown ups playing Operation: Creature Feature (each responsible for different sections on the screen because it's back breaking after 10 or so minutes). But it's good exercise. :)

I think going after WiiSports and WiiFit mechanics (Yoga, tennis, bowling, golf, assorted dancing, ...) would be a good start.


EDIT: Hmm... I can't find my post now. Back when PS Eye was announced, I suggested using colored ribbons (or sticky dots) to attach to human and objects for tracking actions. I think it allows for more fun and flexibility because you're not restricted to traditional movements and equipments (e.g., using my wife's real guitar for playing Guitar Hero, business model issues aside).

[BadTB25]

At first I had a similar reaction to what many others here probably had.. One of concern this was just going to be a gimmick.

However I'm actually coming round to it's potential.
The point I realised 'hey, this might just work' was while watching this video for ArmA II for the PC. It all comes down to what peoples expectations are for the uses of the tech:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wXx3vMy_AQ (Highly recommended watch).

They also made me think of the old wii hack videos, of changing perspective.
Something like this wouldn't be a play for the casual market, and really, really could be a game changer. It all depends on the implementations and accuracy.

The vid was very impressive. I wish they had a really good heli game for the 360/PS3.

I wonder how much neck strain would occur after prolonged play with device. It's also why I'm not sold on a body motion device. When I play games, I tend to vegetate out on a recliner with little movement except for my hands.

A device like a body motion device may be good for short play sessions or parties, but without a controller ala the Wii, would it have to recalibrate after each player?

[Silent_Buddha]

The vid was very impressive. I wish they had a really good heli game for the 360/PS3.

I wonder how much neck strain would occur after prolonged play with device. It's also why I'm not sold on a body motion device. When I play games, I tend to vegetate out on a recliner with little movement except for my hands.

A device like a body motion device may be good for short play sessions or parties, but without a controller ala the Wii, would it have to recalibrate after each player?

Presumably for them to make this work there would have to be something that can distinguish fingers, hands, arms, legs, head at the very least. And not only that but to isolate it with regards to anything else that might be moving in the field of view, like other people, pets, fans, whatever...

If it can do that, I'm not sure it would require any calibration since it would need to be able to distinguish these features (and track them) regardless of size or orientation.

I'm just not sold that MS can pull this off well enough to be used for games. Especially if they want to use it for somewhat precise Minority Report type controls.

But if they could, then I'll be hoping it comes to the PC also. :) Who needs a remote if you can just control Vista/Win7 from the comfort of your counch using just your hands and fingers. :)

Imagine, multi-touch, except remotely in mid air. Now THAT could be considered quite revolutionary and as Microsoft says, "completely transform how people think about home entertainment."

Regards,
SB

[zRifle1z]

Presumably for them to make this work there would have to be something that can distinguish fingers, hands, arms, legs, head at the very least. And not only that but to isolate it with regards to anything else that might be moving in the field of view, like other people, pets, fans, whatever...

If it can do that, I'm not sure it would require any calibration since it would need to be able to distinguish these features (and track them) regardless of size or orientation.

I'm just not sold that MS can pull this off well enough to be used for games. Especially if they want to use it for somewhat precise Minority Report type controls.

But if they could, then I'll be hoping it comes to the PC also. :) Who needs a remote if you can just control Vista/Win7 from the comfort of your counch using just your hands and fingers. :)

Imagine, multi-touch, except remotely in mid air. Now THAT could be considered quite revolutionary and as Microsoft says, "completely transform how people think about home entertainment."

Regards,
SB

I hope this helps:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd9_VuqEymk&feature=related

[Shifty Geezer]

To me, the most important thing about that video clip, is it was posted over a year ago. So where's the tech now? We've seen similar from Sony for several years now, showing it work fantastically. If it works that well, why isn't it out in the general public? I'm guessing there are issues that stop it working effectively. eg. With the original EyeToy, IIRC the idea was much older but the technology wasn't there to work in low-light (living-room) conditions, so the had to wait for a suitable camera to be developed. In development it worked perfectly in brightly lit, showcase situations, but failed in the home. Likewise 'You're in the Movies' was demo'd working in an unrealistic setting. Eurogamer's review had them struggling to get it to operate.

Because none of this tech is new, and yet still isn't mainstream, it must be very hard to achieve a robust response - the reason why the EyeToy crew didn't go with background subtraction. What is this system going to do differently to overcome these issues?

[deepbrown]

Sounds like the thing Sony was talking about with the PS3Eye. Turns out they needed a LED waggle to be able to use it properly.

[zRifle1z]

To me, the most important thing about that video clip, is it was posted over a year ago. So where's the tech now? "snip".....

Because none of this tech is new, and yet still isn't mainstream, it must be very hard to achieve a robust response - the reason why the EyeToy crew didn't go with background subtraction. What is this system going to do differently to overcome these issues?

The company/technology now belongs to Microsoft:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/04/10/microsoft_3dv_mou/

IMHO you will probably get to know how far it has advanced at this years E3.

As far as I know the camera uses various shades of white to black, along with other indicators, to determine your movements as opposed to what ever is in your back ground. I cannot find the link, but it some how uses the colors to track depth as well.

EDIT:

Found this:
http://www.3dvsystems.com/news/ZCam%20Release%20FINAL%2012%202%2007%20(3).pdf

"ZCam™ offers real-time depth imaging at 60 frames per second, eliminating any perceived latency. The low CPU consumption of the unit means that gamers will not drain their systems of processing power. ZCam™ boasts the highest resolution on the market and since the camera works independent of lighting conditions, it will work flawlessly in any room, night or day."

[Crossbar]

The company/technology now belongs to Microsoft:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/04/10/microsoft_3dv_mou/

That´s not the company in the video clip.

Anyway I am pretty excited about how it will work, it would allow for some pretty advanced eye-toy like games. For any kind of excersise game it sounds like a perfect fit.

[Quaz51]

To me, the most important thing about that video clip, is it was posted over a year ago. So where's the tech now? We've seen similar from Sony for several years now, showing it work fantastically. If it works that well, why isn't it out in the general public? I'm guessing there are issues that stop it working effectively. eg. With the original EyeToy, IIRC the idea was much older but the technology wasn't there to work in low-light (living-room) conditions, so the had to wait for a suitable camera to be developed. In development it worked perfectly in brightly lit, showcase situations, but failed in the home. Likewise 'You're in the Movies' was demo'd working in an unrealistic setting. Eurogamer's review had them struggling to get it to operate.

Because none of this tech is new, and yet still isn't mainstream, it must be very hard to achieve a robust response - the reason why the EyeToy crew didn't go with background subtraction. What is this system going to do differently to overcome these issues?

3D camera is a really new fascinating technologie with new possibility
eyeToy/Pseye is calssic 2D camera

[BadTB25]

I'm a little pessimistic on the whole motion-thing. I guess I lack the imagination to really see how I can be sold on this.

It will take a pretty impressive demo to really get me to change my mind on the whole thing.

I was thinking it would be pretty cool to control the dashboard via a Minority report interface, but in the end it would be a fad for me where I'd probably go back to the controller.

[Shifty Geezer]

As far as I know the camera uses various shades of white to black...That's the depth buffer, the whiter objects being closer to the camera.

3D camera is a really new fascinating technologie with new possibility
eyeToy/Pseye is calssic 2D camera
Sure, it could be very cool, but it still faces some of the same issues like knowing which movements to follow and which to ignore. The rumour article says it doesn't track spectators for example.

Do you know what are the 2 additional sensors are alongside the camera (in the rumoured design)? IR lightsources is a guess. How does depth detection work with a single camera?

[Quaz51]

How does depth detection work with a single camera?

3D camera use revolutionary new sensor, every pixel sensor can measure depth value with "Time-of-flight" method use on light (camera emitting short pulses of infra-red light for the depth measure)
i think it's really a revolution in the sensor industry like Mems/Nems

[Shifty Geezer]

That's very clever! You can see from the z-buffer clip that there are some clear optimizations that can be made. A simple filter of all values beyond a distance will focus solely on an area in front of the screen, eliminating the issues of optical background visual removal. Motion into the screen would also be measurable, allowing for punches and swings. Existing rotation tracking could be coupled with the depth feed too. And object occlusion is possible considerably aiding Augmented Reality. There's certainly potential. I still don't rate it's chances in this implementation though :p

[pc999]

Sure, it could be very cool, but it still faces some of the same issues like knowing which movements to follow and which to ignore. The rumour article says it doesn't track spectators for example.

Didnt people said the same about Wii?

[Shifty Geezer]

Say what about Wii?

[pc999]

People said that there still has problems with Wiimote like tech, namely knowing which movements to follow and which to ignore, adverse pratical conditions (homes)...

At the end Wiimote works very well, we need to know more of the tech.

[Inquisitive_Idiot]

That's very clever! You can see from the z-buffer clip that there are some clear optimizations that can be made. A simple filter of all values beyond a distance will focus solely on an area in front of the screen, eliminating the issues of optical background visual removal. Motion into the screen would also be measurable, allowing for punches and swings. Existing rotation tracking could be coupled with the depth feed too. And object occlusion is possible considerably aiding Augmented Reality. There's certainly potential. I still don't rate it's chances in this implementation though :p

Demo of Boxing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_yWZFcgPPk&feature=PlayList&p=31112FEA52A5D861&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=1) from CES 2008.

It looks pretty accurate for a simple demo they where showing at CES, at least as accurate as anything we have seen from the WiiMote. With more time and bigger developer support this seems to have as much potential as Wii Motion+ in terms of providing 1 to 1 motion for sports games.

Flight Simulator (http://www.3dvsystems.com/gallery/movies/Flight%20Simulator.mpg) with hands as controller.

This demo is even more impressive, as you can see the system recognizes the position of his thumbs to fire machine guns or bombs. It seems to be about as accurate as Sixaxis in this video, but again its just a simple demo prepared by 3DV Systems to demonstrate the technology.

IMO, if this is in fact the company that Microsoft has purchased and the technology they intended to implement it seems to have amazing potential.

[pc999]

Demo of Boxing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_yWZFcgPPk&feature=PlayList&p=31112FEA52A5D861&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=1) from CES 2008.

It looks pretty accurate for a simple demo they where showing at CES, at least as accurate as anything we have seen from the WiiMote. With more time and bigger developer support this seems to have as much potential as Wii Motion+ in terms of providing 1 to 1 motion for sports games.

Flight Simulator (http://www.3dvsystems.com/gallery/movies/Flight%20Simulator.mpg) with hands as controller.

This demo is even more impressive, as you can see the system recognizes the position of his thumbs to fire machine guns or bombs. It seems to be about as accurate as Sixaxis in this video, but again its just a simple demo prepared by 3DV Systems to demonstrate the technology.

IMO, if this is in fact the company that Microsoft has purchased and the technology they intended to implement it seems to have amazing potential.

Ok i am sold, just give me a few triggers/joysticks anyway, I will miss those.

[BadTB25]

Thanks for the vid links.
I could see this being an addition to classic gaming with a controller. I don't think it would substitute for it though.

I wonder if this would work for a game like Rock band and GHWT where it would replace the components of the drum. Essentially just a shell and drumsticks that pick up the movements and translate it to inputs. For the guitar part, it would have to be really accurate to detect finger presses and strums.

[Inquisitive_Idiot]

...For the guitar part, it would have to be really accurate to detect finger presses and strums.

Yeah, there is defiantly a limitation to how accurate the system is going to be. For things that require lightning quick reactions like Guitar Hero an actual Guitar peripheral with buttons is going to be ideal. I imagine it would also be hard to detect the minute movements of someones fingers even for a system like that. It would be amazing if it did work though, you could even imagine a flying game where you still use the regular 360 controller for shooting and having access to the buttons while the camera would monitor controller so it could be used in a SixAxis like manner for flying the plane.

If you take a look at the YouTube link I posted you'll notice there are a hole range of demos related to this system, ranging from Minority Report style control of Second Life and Media Center to gaming applications. It seems to be a pretty versatile system, especially if you could couple it with a traditional controller or even a motion controller/IR pointer.

[liolio]

Wow, I read the new about Ms buying 3dv sometime ago but I didn't realize how cool this was, damned this goes way further than just gaming. No matter this find an application in game/360 this will bring a revolution in the way media center edition of famous OS work.
Basically for non bureautic /extensive forum posting applications keyboards and mices could be send doing dust collecting duties.
Actually it turn me on way more than possible game applications.

[MfA]

3D camera use revolutionary new sensor, every pixel sensor can measure depth value with "Time-of-flight" method use on light (camera emitting short pulses of infra-red light for the depth measure)
i think it's really a revolution in the sensor industry like Mems/Nems
Picosecond accurate distribution of timing signals and if you don't just put a counter on each pixel you also need very low noise (to use integration for time measurement). With the amount of engineering to get that to work I don't think consoles would be the first to expect these in. Hell I wouldn't be surprised if you could buy 10 consoles for the price of such a sensor if it came to market now.

PS. oh they say they have a fast shutter, that takes care of the timing distribution I guess ... still it's strange to see something like this being targeted at low end commodity products straight at introduction.

[BadTB25]

Yeah, there is defiantly a limitation to how accurate the system is going to be. For things that require lightning quick reactions like Guitar Hero an actual Guitar peripheral with buttons is going to be ideal. I imagine it would also be hard to detect the minute movements of someones fingers even for a system like that. It would be amazing if it did work though, you could even imagine a flying game where you still use the regular 360 controller for shooting and having access to the buttons while the camera would monitor controller so it could be used in a SixAxis like manner for flying the plane.

If you take a look at the YouTube link I posted you'll notice there are a hole range of demos related to this system, ranging from Minority Report style control of Second Life and Media Center to gaming applications. It seems to be a pretty versatile system, especially if you could couple it with a traditional controller or even a motion controller/IR pointer.

I never thought of using a combination of both the controller and the camera in that manner. I wonder if you could something similar to the video Graham linked.

I'm still skeptical, but I guess there could be some cool apps. The other video with browsing through the videos selection and then using a gesture to play the video was pretty cool though. I thought it was even better than using a touch screen. I'm still not sold on using it in-game...yet.

I have noticed that a lot of networks are using the large touch screens for both news and sports. It would be even cooler not even having to touch the screen.

[Silent_Buddha]

Picosecond accurate distribution of timing signals and if you don't just put a counter on each pixel you also need very low noise (to use integration for time measurement). With the amount of engineering to get that to work I don't think consoles would be the first to expect these in. Hell I wouldn't be surprised if you could buy 10 consoles for the price of such a sensor if it came to market now.

PS. oh they say they have a fast shutter, that takes care of the timing distribution I guess ... still it's strange to see something like this being targeted at low end commodity products straight at introduction.

It's possible that MS could be considering using it as a loss leader for moving more consoles and thus more games and peripherals. Whether that's financially viable we have no idea at the moment as without more information on what the system can do and whatnot, it's hard to come up with a ballpark figure for how much something like that would be to implement.

I have to say however, that I'll be disappointed if this doesn't also make it to the PC at the same/similar timeframe.

It would be interesting for use with an RTS also. And could bring mouse like RTS controls to X360 owners.

If they wanted, they could get really radical. Martial arts instruction, where the console could determine if you were doing things correctly. Sword fighting using any stick you could pick up (careful not to destroy anything in your room :D).

I'm still far more interesting in UI integration though. Especially with regards to Multi-touch and Media Center... I get excited just thinking about those.

Still getting ahead of myself. I'll really be pleasantly surprised if MS can pull this off.

Regards,
SB

[RobertR1]

Ok. The boxing demo has me sold. That was sick!

[silhouette]

If there is no controller, why is there such a calibration screen in this shot?

Engadget (http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/01/xbox-360-to-get-motion-sensing-add-on-with-full-body-game-contro/)

I think there is still a controller of some form, but the functionality should be more in the camera sensors than in the controller itself.

Btw, this one would be an awesome compliment to the current gamepads in many games. As an example, one of the big problem in FPSes is the "fine" movements for targeting (and hence legal cheating in targeting in most console games) and it seems that you can solve this problem with this. The right analog stick can then be used only for larger orientation changes in this case. Even Halo:ODST might be using this! :)

[liolio]

I wonder if the system would be precise enough to allow the controller to be held as a wheel.
Could be fun i tried yesterday for experience the feel, basically it's not that you put the pad face toward the screen wich allow to conviniently use your thumbs for accelerate and brake (pressing LT with the right thumb, RT with the left one). Try it's not that bad :)
you could also imagine move our right.left hand (depending on countries) to mimick the shift stick.

[patsu]

If there is no controller, why is there such a calibration screen in this shot?


The calibration may be needed to improve accuracy and response time (also to center action).

The 3DV system looks like a totally hands free system. It'd be ideal for controlling a media player (No need to look for damn remote). It should work in the dark too ! :)


Demo of Boxing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_yWZFcgPPk&feature=PlayList&p=31112FEA52A5D861&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=1) from CES 2008.

It looks pretty accurate for a simple demo they where showing at CES, at least as accurate as anything we have seen from the WiiMote. With more time and bigger developer support this seems to have as much potential as Wii Motion+ in terms of providing 1 to 1 motion for sports games.

Flight Simulator (http://www.3dvsystems.com/gallery/movies/Flight%20Simulator.mpg) with hands as controller.

This demo is even more impressive, as you can see the system recognizes the position of his thumbs to fire machine guns or bombs. It seems to be about as accurate as Sixaxis in this video, but again its just a simple demo prepared by 3DV Systems to demonstrate the technology.

The system can't work without line of sight. It'd be awkward to try to mimick a SIXAXIS. (e.g., User playing with a partially obscured SIXAXIS because of furniture, decor and sitting position). I'd say they should explore a totally different "vocabulary" for this controller.


IMO, if this is in fact the company that Microsoft has purchased and the technology they intended to implement it seems to have amazing potential.

I agree !

[betan]

Picosecond accurate distribution of timing signals and if you don't just put a counter on each pixel you also need very low noise (to use integration for time measurement). With the amount of engineering to get that to work I don't think consoles would be the first to expect these in. Hell I wouldn't be surprised if you could buy 10 consoles for the price of such a sensor if it came to market now.
You are right that it's highly unlikely for a 2.5D camera to measure timing (~30 GHz?), instead it's probably just reading intensity values of regular infrared CCD camera timed with that fast shutter you are talking about. I believe though, those are still called time-of-flight cameras, despite measuring light accumulation in actuality.

PS. oh they say they have a fast shutter, that takes care of the timing distribution I guess ... still it's strange to see something like this being targeted at low end commodity products straight at introduction.

Commercial fast shutter + light accumulation cameras are probably more than a decade old now, I'm not exactly sure why you think it's strange to see them at low end now.
If memory serves, there is even at least one such webcam out there.

[MfA]

You are right that it's highly unlikely for a 2.5D camera to measure timing (~30 GHz?), instead it's probably just reading intensity values of regular infrared CCD camera timed with that fast shutter you are talking about.
The rise/fall still has to be reproducible at the same time-scales (ie. 50% transmittance of the shutter at a given pixel should come at the same time after the trigger at picosecond level accuracy). I wonder what they are using, liquid crystals seem unlikely.

[Crossbar]

I have to say however, that I'll be disappointed if this doesn't also make it to the PC at the same/similar timeframe.

Prepare for disappointment. I would consider it a big sensation if Microsoft tried to introduce this outside the living-room.

[betan]

The rise/fall still has to be reproducible at the same time-scales (ie. 50% transmittance of the shutter at a given pixel should come at the same time after the trigger at picosecond level accuracy). I wonder what they are using, liquid crystals seem unlikely.

It's probably GaAs based optical switch, but I'm willing to bet ~nanosecond latency on the shutter is sufficient.

[Crossbar]

If there is no controller, why is there such a calibration screen in this shot?

Engadget (http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/01/xbox-360-to-get-motion-sensing-add-on-with-full-body-game-contro/)

I think there is still a controller of some form, but the functionality should be more in the camera sensors than in the controller itself.

I would also expect there will be some kind of pointing device/controller (which would require some calibration). Pointing a finger (or whatever) is far to unprecise particulary if third party developers want to port the Wii control scheme/games, which I expect them to.

[MfA]

10^-9 * 3 * 10^8 is not satisfactory. The reproducibility of the rise/fall of the transmittance over time has to be better than 1 ns, otherwise you are not getting mm/cm level accuracy.

[Silent_Buddha]

Prepare for disappointment. I would consider it a big sensation if Microsoft tried to introduce this outside the living-room.

Whoever, said out of the living room? If you're at a desktop I'd say this would be mostly irrelevant.

However, multi-touch and Media Center could greatly benefit from this in the living room and would sell like hotcakes.

Assuming they can pull it off. Hell, I'd probably pay in excess of 200 USD for something like this if it worked extremely well.

The fact that it's targetted at the X360 however points to a more reasonable 50-100 USD price point however.

Regards,
SB

[Crossbar]

Whoever, said out of the living room? If you're at a desktop I'd say this would be mostly irrelevant.

However, multi-touch and Media Center could greatly benefit from this in the living room and would sell like hotcakes.
Do you really believe that?

I have not a feel for how big the htpc market is, but I know it is more or less completely unstandardized with regard to hardware and OS and the majority use it only for watching movies.
With the easy accessible built-in media center functionality of the 360 and the PS3, I´d say htpc is a dying breed in comparison to the growth of the HD console generation.

I also expect that Microsoft want more people to get locked into XBL subscription/Netflix etc. (more revenue to their pockets) than stay in the open Windows world so Microsoft may also want to keep the proprietary technology exclusive to the 360 for that reason.

But who knows, maybe they standardize it and let third part manufacturers licens it within a couple of years, stranger things have happened, but right now I don´t find it very likely.

Assuming they can pull it off. Hell, I'd probably pay in excess of 200 USD for something like this if it worked extremely well.
That would be a very expensive remote replacement.

[Silent_Buddha]

That would be a very expensive remote replacement.

People already pay in excess of 400 USD for a programmable remote.

I'd actually find 200 USD to be quite reasonable, assuming it worked very well, for a remote control mechanism that you cannot lose, doesn't need batteries, and can be used to control games nearly as well as a mouse.

The potential for something like this, if they can pull it off, far outstrips any controller, remote, etc that's been released for a PC or console.

It would be a truly revolutionary control scheme such as hasn't been seen since the advent of the first mouse.

I still won't believe it'll actually happen until I see it however. :p

Regards,
SB

[damienw]

My Harmony 880 when I bought it years ago cost $250 US.

Also, I believe that Comcast still uses MSFTs embedded OS for their cable boxes meaning you could keep this in the living room and have multi device usage or you could go back to the days of 360 as console and IPTV box and consolidate devices, especially with Comcast pushing out their Fancast service later this year. Although, the way I envision the possibilities those all seem like things better left for CES than E3.

Comcast doesn't use it where I live. They put out a notice saying basically that it functioned so poorly they were switching to their own because it was costing them so much in problem calls and locked up boxes.

I myself went through 6 in 6 months. After the notice and new OS, no problems.

[rabidrabbit]

If that video posted in page 1 is anything to go by, they still have a long long way to go before a useable, Minority Report style interface.

Why would I want to control a media player by flicking my thumb up, down left or right, and giving a "V" sign for "enter", when I can use just a little tiny movements of my thumb on a conventional remote, or even a game pad.

For a gesture based iterface to work, it would need to mimic the gestures as if you were working on top of a desk, that's why touchscreen interfaces work that much better.
Mimicing some directional input device with your hands just doesn't work.
For example, if it were to replace a mouse like pointer device, giving a "V" sign or some other hand gesture every time you want to "left click"... that would be slow, tiring and not responsive enough for any serious application, gaming or other.

For games like boxing, some simple flying and steering based games it seems fine... basically those same things that the Wiimote and Sixaxis are already doing.
For anything that need an input from a button, not so good.
Think a fps game, for pointing a gun it might actually be good, but for firing other than single bullets or predefined burst of fire... would you rather flick your forefinger back and forth (it seems to need quite large movements of your finger) rather than using a button?

A gesture recognizing UI needs to be fast, flowing and intuitive to be more than just a gimmick. If it's clunky, slow and unresponsive, most will rather use old reliable fast ways of contol.

[Rangers]

This youtube may be a clue what microsoft is up too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhmUXuYwCSQ

Is this the XBOX 360 motion controller rumored to be announced at E3 2009? This clip is from CES in 2008, Microsoft later acquired the company

[Rangers]

2007 patent from 3dv, that might line up with the 3 holes you see on the supposed engadget leaked photo

http://i41.tinypic.com/33jtifk.jpg

Personally I'm still skeptical this is even real. Simply because I havent heard a single rumor of a actual game using this..except for the fight night thing somebody tossed out in this thread..

[damienw]

Personally I'm still skeptical this is even real. Simply because I havent heard a single rumor of a actual game using this..except for the fight night thing somebody tossed out in this thread..

It doesn't matter if it's real. It only matters that people think it's real and ready for consumers. That's all MS cares about, in this instance.

[Rangers]

Hmm, an interesting comment on the newest Listen Up (http://podcast.the1upnetwork.com/flat/1UPYours/LUP050809.mp3) podcast from Shane Bettenhausen, starts around 40:00 and I'll attempt to copy it, theyre talking about Fight Night Round 4

Shane: "My second question is, as good as this game seems, dont you feel its a missed opportunity for a boxing title, say a publisher was going to announce a revolutionary 3D motion camera system by which you control the game with body movements transforming the experience-"

David Ellis: "Perhaps a system that has used a boxing game demo in the past?"

Shane: "perhaps"

They then go on to basically state that Fight Night R4 would not be the game to showcase this "theoretical" motion control system.

So basically if I follow correctly, it's confirmation of MS plans, and apparently FN4 wont be using the new system.

Edit: And theres plenty more wink wink nudge nudge confirmation of the motion sensing controls later in the podcast as well.

[Rangers]

One thing that just occured to me about this, is I dont know how big it can be if it's say, and $80 peripheral as I imagine. That may make it a glorified eye toy.

Seems to really be foundational it would have to packed in with all new consoles sold.

[AzBat]

One thing that just occured to me about this, is I dont know how big it can be if it's say, and $80 peripheral as I imagine. That may make it a glorified eye toy.

Seems to really be foundational it would have to packed in with all new consoles sold.

Could be included with the Arcade SKU for free, but the Pro & Elite would still have the same wireless controller.

Tommy McClain

[patsu]

One thing that just occured to me about this, is I dont know how big it can be if it's say, and $80 peripheral as I imagine.

WiiFit costs $90 and it sold more than Halo 3 in a shorter timespan. Besides the gesture-based media player and Xbox UI, it should also include launch applications, which I'd imagine is similar to WiiSports. The boxing demo could be a bundled mini-game, so FN4 is out. Even Master Chief may make an appearance in one of the motion sensing games to help sell/demo the concept.

As long as Microsoft pushes this hard, they should be able to sell a lot of units. I expect them to go mainstream ads (like iPod and iPhone). So we may be seeing regular ads on this all over the place (Even building-size poster is possible).

They'd plan to tap on free marketing from the press though, given that it's a follow up from casual-centric Wii, Playstation Eye and recent Multi-Touch technologies.

[damienw]

WiiFit costs $90 and it sold more than Halo 3 in a shorter timespan. Besides the gesture-based media player and Xbox UI, it should also include launch applications, which I'd imagine is similar to WiiSports. The boxing demo could be a bundled mini-game, so FN4 is out. Even Master Chief may make an appearance in one of the motion sensing games to help sell/demo the concept.

As long as Microsoft pushes this hard, they should be able to sell a lot of units. I expect them to go mainstream ads (like iPod and iPhone). So we may be seeing regular ads on this all over the place (Even building-size poster is possible).

They'd plan to tap on free marketing from the press though, given that it's a follow up from casual-centric Wii, Playstation Eye and recent Multi-Touch technologies.

Yeah, but WiiFit rode the hype wave among the general populace. The only thing the "casuals" who went ape**** over the Wii really know about the 360 is the bad press from all the hardware issues.

It was different where Nintendo was still relying on it's past successes and name brand/image in bringing out the Wii.

most people, wrongly or not, already have bad impressions of MS (whether it be due to anecdotes from friends, the Vista debacle, RRoD, etc) and especially since this would be a PIECE OF HARDWARE from MS, kind of has the deck stacked against it.

[thatdude90210]

The Wall Street Journal (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124215416209111679.html):
Microsoft Corp. is developing a new videocamera for its Xbox 360 videogame console that will allow players to control games with the movement of their bodies, according to people familiar with the matter.

The new device from the Redmond, Wash., company is a novel twist on Nintendo Co.'s Wii videogame console, which allows users to swing a tennis racket and other objects in games by holding a plastic wand in their hands.
...

[assen]

This is the so-called NeoGAF -> Internet -> NeoGAF effect; essentially, MSM repeating rumors from our circle doesn't make them more credible.

[Rangers]

The WSJ article says it will not likely come out until next year.

I also wonder if this means Xbox 360 is going to have a significantly longer life than expected. Otherwise I would assume they would save this tech for the next gen box. This suggests 3 more years of 360 to me.

[Acert93]

If MS can bundle some good Wii-sport like mini-games that are family/multiplayer friendly this could be cool. I am not sure it will adapt well to established franchises where players want certain degree of control in a specified gametype, but allowing more "casual" play and interactive games could be fun. MS might as well put Rare on it :P Heck, we might as well put Robert on it >:)

Edit: 6 years if 50%% longer. If they target 32nm with a goal to move to 22nm rapidly and then 16nm then 2012 would seem plausible (7 years). A lot comes down to partners, market approach, consumer readiness, publisher support, etc.

[Crossbar]

If MS can bundle some good Wii-sport like mini-games that are family/multiplayer friendly this could be cool.
This is a no-brainer if MS want fast adaption among the installed base. A sports title has broad appeal, so its perfect as a sample game. The cost of the development of the game will be part of the marketing budget.

[Silent_Buddha]

If MS can bundle some good Wii-sport like mini-games that are family/multiplayer friendly this could be cool. I am not sure it will adapt well to established franchises where players want certain degree of control in a specified gametype, but allowing more "casual" play and interactive games could be fun. MS might as well put Rare on it :P Heck, we might as well put Robert on it >:)

Edit: 6 years if 50%% longer. If they target 32nm with a goal to move to 22nm rapidly and then 16nm then 2012 would seem plausible (7 years). A lot comes down to partners, market approach, consumer readiness, publisher support, etc.

Speaking of Rare, I remember there being something that mentioned Rare being reduced down to just 3 "tasks." One of which being the X360 UI. It certainly wouldn't be out of the question if another was some product/game tied to it. Add in the fact that they've had a lot to do with the current UI and that would also mean it'd be better integrated with the whole X360 experience.

As to X360 possibly going longer. There was a comment from the head of EA that they expected this generation to last longer than previous generations as momentum and sales both continue to grow on current gen platforms.

I'm sure both MS and Sony wouldn't mind more time to recoup sunk costs on current generation before moving onto the next.

Regards,
SB

[Nick Laslett]

The problem with GAFs self-importance is that rarely have I ever seen anything actually come FROM GAF, it is an aggregator. It might be where all gaming information ends up but it is certainly not the generator of that information.

I think that you are partly right. NeoGAF is never the primary source, but it is the first secondary source that many major reporting bodies read and then copy rumours from.

Just look at the PS3Slim rumour as an example. The news originates from somewhere else, but as soon as NeoGAF picks it up it then goes everywhere.

[pc999]

Somewhat related.

Microsoft Files Patent for "Magic Wand"

...

Of course, a patent application is just one way of Microsoft to protect something it may choose to explore, but that doesn’t mean that it’ll every become anything. In fact, the evidence right now points to Microsoft utilizing some advanced motion tracking software in conjunction with video cameras for motion sensing rather than a “Magic Wand.”

http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/microsoft-patent-magic-wand-xbox,news-31141.html

[Zaphod]

Just look at the PS3Slim rumour as an example. The news originates from somewhere else, but as soon as NeoGAF picks it up it then goes everywhere.
That's just because everything eventually ends up on GAF.

The difference between "journalism" (most of the web) and journalism (WSJ print) with regards to tech news is that the former is based off "having read somewhere from that someone reporting having read somewhere that someone heard a rumor that something was about to happen". Now, the latter is pretty much the same, but with the important addition of "so I made a couple of calls to people who might know for sure, and while one of them kinda' confirmed it he declined to be named".

[Silent_Buddha]

That's just because everything eventually ends up on GAF.

The difference between "journalism" (most of the web) and journalism (WSJ print) with regards to tech news is that the former is based off "having read somewhere from that someone reporting having read somewhere that someone heard a rumor that something was about to happen". Now, the latter is pretty much the same, but with the important addition of "so I made a couple of calls to people who might know for sure, and while one of them kinda' confirmed it he declined to be named".

Ugh, close but not quite.

Web "journalism" by means of blogs or news aggregators just isn't journalism period. The vast majority of it is either news aggregation (does nothing to create news) or blogs (generally very opinion based with little to no research or fact checking).

Journalism actually involves real research via interviews, on the spot news reporting, research, etc. Added to that respectable journalists and the news outlets they sell their stories to should do extensive fact checking to make sure the news is correct and doesn't contain items that are basically opinions paraded as facts.

After all, how many blogs can afford to send reporters to cover news simultaneously in multiple locations around the world. And then spend even more to fact check what those reporters found in those locations? Heck, how many news blogs can even afford to buy the news stories from independant reporters?

No, they are far more happy to just plagiarize the works of others for their own revenue.

Real Journalism just doesn't really exist on the web. And is slowly dying as those with the ability to fund actual Journalism are slowly going by the wayside to be replaced by fly by wire blogs with little to no interest in reporting facts. And then said news aggregators which will soon have to be blog aggregators as more and more real journalism sources go out of business.

Not to mention most internet "news" sites don't even bother to have an editor and those that do, don't seem to have an editor with much interest in proper grammar. /sigh

Meh, sorry pet peeve. :)

Regards,
SB

[AzBat]

More rumors. This time from VentureBeat...

http://venturebeat.com/2009/05/29/peeling-back-another-layer-of-detail-on-microsofts-secret-gesture-control-system-for-games/

Not only are Microsoft getting 3D camera technology from 3DV Systems, but also Prime Sense. If true, then Microsoft must be pretty serious on full body motion detection.

Tommy McClain

[TheWretched]

Microsoft OWN 3DV, so they are not "getting" anything, per se...

This makes this article sound a bit fishy (read: bad/no research). But still, this could mean ANYTHING, from research to a new console...

[AzBat]

Microsoft has never officially announced they bought ANY of them. It's all rumor & always has been. Though the Prime Sense rumor is new.

Tommy McClain

[TheWretched]

Correct^^ The best part is, that the rumor, that MS bought them comes from... you guessed it: Dean Takahashi (http://venturebeat.com/2009/02/21/sources-confirm-microsoft-is-buying-3dv-systems/)^^

So either his "sources" were wrong, or he simply forgot he posted this.

[AzBat]

Again, the Prime Sense rumor is the highlight here, but if you want to get stuck on the 3DV thing, check this out...

http://twitter.com/cbellfield/status/1418469351
http://twitter.com/cbellfield/status/1900325179

Hi Charles! Long time no see! ;)

Tommy McClain

[Arwin]

Project Natal is here ... all the rumors were true. What do you think mods, a new thread or rename this one? I vote new thread.

EDIT: I made a new topic for Project Natal in the tech-forum:

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?p=1297702