Audio Codecs and API [Archive]

Old Right Member

12-Jan-2009, 15:35

Why hasn't Microsoft made a set of audio extensions (like EAX) that would run in software in windows vista? Or have they?

What is the difference from version to version of Realtek's audio codec drivers? I know that the one I have now (2.13) sounds better than the previous version, but what exactly do they change? In the release notes it's rare for them to list anything other than "customizations." They fail to elaborate on what "customizations" are.

Davros

12-Jan-2009, 19:07

I think they are relying on openal for the fancy stuff

Albuquerque

12-Jan-2009, 20:16

Davros

13-Jan-2009, 02:54

id like to see that too
do you now of any games that do enviroments ect using openal and actually work if your not using a cl card and alchemy ?

Ateo

13-Jan-2009, 12:22

Vista already allows for pretty much any codec to be installed, as codecs are a software layer.

I think you're asking for a hardware API that allows for hardware acceleration of sound objects, which they removed along with hardware-accelerated "directsound" support in Vista.

And while it's entirely true that they could have built an API for accelerated sound functionality, I guess they simply chose not to in light of the amassing CPU power we have today. Are there any benchmarks anywhere that demonstrate the benefit of hardware accelerated sound objects on modern hardware?

The last time I saw anything like that, the comparison was being done on old Pentium 3's and slightly-newer Pentium 4's of the ~2.4Ghz single-core non-hyperthreaded era. And on games that were entirely single-threaded. While modern games still have significant room to grow in the "threading" department, they're still far better than they once were.

Cliff notes: I'd like to see a performance analysis of modern games on modern hardware between "software" sound and "hardware-accelerated" sound options.

You are looking at this the wrong way.
EAX 5.0 ADDS to the immersion and is only possbile on a X-Fi.
The same way that AA of AF taxes performance, but gives better IQ and thus better immersion.
It's not only about the performance, it's also about the features.

But here is some nice reading up:
http://www.guru3d.com/article/auzentech-xfi-prelude-71-review/7
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/creative-x,1101-22.html
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/multimedia/display/creative-soundblaster-xfi_9.html#sect0
http://www.pcper.com/article.php?aid=177&type=expert&pid=9

Nothing hard to find, just did a "X-fi review" on the site called google...

Albuquerque

13-Jan-2009, 13:40

Wow, you sure showed me...

Two reviews from more than three years ago, and the newest review showed a single game (Battlefield 2142) that showed any perceptable change in framerate -- all other benchmarks were pretty much dead-even in performance between "accelerated" and "software" sound.

Not really thinking that Vista is missing much by avoiding hardware acceleration. And as for "immersion"? Well, to each their own. I've got 5.1 sound, I get echo, reverb, attenuation and other aural oddities from my games -- I assume because they coded them into the audio engine. The best I'm gonna muster from "ZOMG I need a $150 audio card!" is an underwhelming meh.

Ateo

13-Jan-2009, 15:04

Albuquerque

13-Jan-2009, 15:13

Nice skipping over the comparisons with AA and AF :roll:
But have you ever heard an EAX 5.0 game on EAX 5.0 hardware?
Simple yes/no question.

Yes, from my friend Joel who got an X-Fi something-or-other for free from his uncle when he upgraded to a newer rig... The only game I heard it in was UT3, and I couldn't tell enough difference to care.

If someone gave me one for free? I'd use it. But I see no point in purchasing one, there simply isn't enough difference to me nor enough supported games that I want to play to make it worth the expense. Seriously, coming from an onboard Envy24 to whatever my current onboard 5.1 audio is, the pricetag does not merit whatever trivial increase in audible quality I can attach to it.

I do have a need for surround-sound gaming these days, but all the modern games I've played (HL2, Crysis, FarCry 2, FallOut 3, World in Conflict, several others) already have enough surround audio effects for what I want.

And why the correlation to AA / AF? AA and AF are "open standards"; any video card can support them because they're not some closed specification. EAX has to be specifically written into the app, and further, isn't an open specification for other hardware to support.

Your comparison is far more like CUDA than AA or AF. And CUDA does nothing for me either, because the things I want to do don't have any use for CUDA either.

Ateo

13-Jan-2009, 16:24

Yes, from my friend Joel who got an X-Fi something-or-other for free from his uncle when he upgraded to a newer rig... The only game I heard it in was UT3, and I couldn't tell enough difference to care.

If someone gave me one for free? I'd use it. But I see no point in purchasing one, there simply isn't enough difference to me nor enough supported games that I want to play to make it worth the expense. Seriously, coming from an onboard Envy24 to whatever my current onboard 5.1 audio is, the pricetag does not merit whatever trivial increase in audible quality I can attach to it.

I do have a need for surround-sound gaming these days, but all the modern games I've played (HL2, Crysis, FarCry 2, FallOut 3, World in Conflict, several others) already have enough surround audio effects for what I want.

And why the correlation to AA / AF? AA and AF are "open standards"; any video card can support them because they're not some closed specification. EAX has to be specifically written into the app, and further, isn't an open specification for other hardware to support.

Your comparison is far more like CUDA than AA or AF. And CUDA does nothing for me either, because the things I want to do don't have any use for CUDA either.

I compare the two(well three actually) because the effects of the effects and similar.
More real world like, sure you can game without, but that removes a lot of the immersion.

I personally game on a X-Fi Elite Pro with 7.1 surround and there is no way I could go back.
And if you ever game a Battlefiled game we wouldn't have this disscusion as the difference is like night and day.
And even in none EAX games have 128 hardware accelerated sounds does also make a big impact.

Like Guru3d wrote:
"Both X-Fi Prelude and X-Fi XtremeMusic cards happily did the ultra 128 voice mode. The X-Meridian is about as fast in 64-voice mode as the X-Fi's are in the 128-voice mode. What was even more impressive was that I actually heard some EAX effects, occlusions and multi-environments (OK, that was in EAX 4), and had a suspension of disbelief!

Since I had not played this game for quite some time, I stayed in the game after the benchmark was completed and just enjoyed the immersion with the Prelude."

For me gaming with onboard sound is like gaming with an IGP...just don't cut it.

Albuquerque

13-Jan-2009, 16:44

I compare the two(well three actually) because the effects of the effects and similar.
More real world like, sure you can game without, but that removes a lot of the immersion.
Yes, but again, AA and AF can (mostly) be applied freely to any game. EAX cannot be "applied', it must be directly written in. And the games that I play? The majority of them don't bother writing it in.

And if you ever game a Battlefiled game we wouldn't have this disscusion as the difference is like night and day.
Not interested in any of the BF series.

Like Guru3d wrote: <snip>
And it was also the only game to show a difference, I like how you deep-linked to the only page in the review that could show a difference. I suppose you wanted me to ignore the other 13 pages of "it didn't matter one iota"?

I'm glad you like it, but don't act like it's a godsend when it clearly isn't.

Ateo

13-Jan-2009, 17:02

Yes, but again, AA and AF can (mostly) be applied freely to any game. EAX cannot be "applied', it must be directly written in. And the games that I play? The majority of them don't bother writing it in.

Most games I play actually support EAX *shrugs*

And it was also the only game to show a difference, I like how you deep-linked to the only page in the review that could show a difference. I suppose you wanted me to ignore the other 13 pages of "it didn't matter one iota"?

I'm glad you like it, but don't act like it's a godsend when it clearly isn't.

Borderline lying now are we?
http://www.guru3d.com/article/auzentech-xfi-prelude-71-review/6

After the benchmarks were completed, there were quite a few spots where I lingered longer just to listen to the enveloping soundspace and the scary sound effects. The placement accuracy of the Prelude with the surround sound was top notch, followed by the X-Fi, with the X-Meridian sounding the least immersive. It had a slight mixing problem between the surrounds and the front speakers, which is easy enough to fix through volume controls, but it would occassionally pop or glitch audibly when switching from surround to front channels.

It's more icing on the cake, just like AA/AF...you keep deraling about the technique, not the results and thus you fail.

Albuquerque

13-Jan-2009, 17:55

Borderline lying now are we?
http://www.guru3d.com/article/auzentech-xfi-prelude-71-review/6
What am I supposed to see here? 1fps? Wow. Glad you noticed.

It's more icing on the cake, just like AA/AF...you keep deraling about the technique, not the results and thus you fail.
Please tell me where I can check a box and play any game with hardware accelerated EAX on any sound platform available. Go ahead and show me where you can apply EAX in a case where it didn't exist from the developers.

Your comparison to AA and AF is as inane as your last retort; antialiasing is a concept, it is not a licensed and copyrighted technique. Anisotropic filtering is a concept, it is not a licensed and copyrighted technique. Antialiasing and anisotropic filtering can be applied to games without the developer coding for it; EAX and it's hardware acceleration can only be used in games where it was specifically written for.

If there was any amount of "fail" in this thread, it is assuredly your dogged and illogical attempt to link a technology item that must be specifically included versus a pair of concepts that can be ubiquitously applied without cost.

I believe you sir are a "fanboi", as evidenced by your little tirade, and as such I will reply no longer to your idiocy.

Ateo

13-Jan-2009, 18:04

What am I supposed to see here? 1fps? Wow. Glad you noticed.

Are you being deliberately stupid?
Search for "immersion" *hint-hint*

Please tell me where I can check a box and play any game with hardware accelerated EAX on any sound platform available. Go ahead and show me where you can apply EAX in a case where it didn't exist from the developers.

Your comparison to AA and AF is as inane as your last retort; antialiasing is a concept, it is not a licensed and copyrighted technique. Anisotropic filtering is a concept, it is not a licensed and copyrighted technique. Antialiasing and anisotropic filtering can be applied to games without the developer coding for it; EAX and it's hardware acceleration can only be used in games where it was specifically written for.

If there was any amount of "fail" in this thread, it is assuredly your dogged and illogical attempt to link a technology item that must be specifically included versus a pair of concepts that can be ubiquitously applied without cost.

I believe you sir are a "fanboi", as evidenced by your little tirade, and as such I will reply no longer to your idiocy.

Like I stated, you fail for wanting to divert from the RESULTS!!! :roll:

What next...Windows is evil because it not an open standard? :roll:

suryad

14-Jan-2009, 17:57

I also have the Elite setup along weith the 7.1 S750 gigaworks speaker setup and I dont think I could go back to anything else. Crysis was just awesome...the breeze rustlingthrough the bushes was enough to make me jump and think someone was behind me...you could almost tell what direction the sounds of your enemies chatting or their sounds of their feet were coming from. In GRAW1/2 you could tell where the bullets were coming from relative to your position...from the side or the back or at 3 o clock etc etc and that made ducking and running like hell to avoide the barrage a lot easier lol. I dont think Ateo is being silly here.

Ateo

14-Jan-2009, 18:20

Albuquerque

14-Jan-2009, 18:35

I also have the Elite setup along weith the 7.1 S750 gigaworks speaker setup and I dont think I could go back to anything else. Crysis was just awesome...the breeze rustlingthrough the bushes was enough to make me jump and think someone was behind me...you could almost tell what direction the sounds of your enemies chatting or their sounds of their feet were coming from.
Seeing as how I get the same effect in my onboard 5.1 setup, you will have to provide a better example
I dont think Ateo is being silly here.
Really, so EAX is just like AA and AF? You can apply it to any game that supports audio? Because that's not how I recall the situation.

Ateo

14-Jan-2009, 18:41

Seeing as how I get the same effect in my onboard 5.1 setup, you will have to provide a better example

Not anyway near as accurate, which is his and my point:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_audio_extensions#EAX_5.0
EAX 5.0

EAX 5.0 is present in Sound Blaster X-Fi sound cards.

* 128 simultaneous voices processable in hardware and up to 4 effects on each
* EAX Voice (processing of microphone input signal)
* EAX PurePath (EAX Sound effects can originate from one speaker only)
* Environment FlexiFX (four available effects slots per channel)
* EAX MacroFX (realistic positional effects at close range)
* Environment Occlusion (sound from adjacent environments can pass through walls)

Really, so EAX is just like AA and AF? You can apply it to any game that supports audio? Because that's not how I recall the situation.

Still walking the fallacy road are we?
It's not about the fucking way it gets implemented, it's about the fucking results :roll:
The immersion EFFECT of EAX is for sound what AA and AF are for IQ, how many times will you ignore this? :roll:

Albuquerque

14-Jan-2009, 18:48

Not any near as accurate, which is his and my point.
Are you sure? Why don't you go look up Crysis and it's support for EAX.

Come back when you can admit your error.

Still walking the fallacy road are we?
It's not about the fucking way it gets implemented, it's about the fucking results :roll:
The immersion EFFECT of EAX is for sound what AA and AF are for IQ, how many times will you ignore this? :roll:

Except that, again, AA and AF can be applied to essentially every 3D asset. You compared onboard audio to that of an IGP's graphics quality. You know what? My onboard audio gets the same sound positioning and immersion in Crysis as your X-Fi without having to spend another penny.

The difference between my pair of 4850's and an Intel GMA would be significantly different in a cutting-edge game like Crysis. You make comparisons where there are none to be made. The "effect" of AA and AF is entirely seperate from EAX -- one can be applied ubiquiteously, one must be specifically coded into the game or else it's entirely useless. And since the number of games that support EAX 5.0 profiles is also incredibly small (among the grand total of games available), it's impact is equally minimized.

You say 'immersion' like it's an automatic thing. It's not.

Edit: Nice edit on your part. I'm ignoring the bullet list, as I already know what EAX is. It doesn't matter, none of those things apply to a game that wasn't specifically written for it. And since the overwhelming majority of games weren't written for it, it isn't like AA and AF in the slightest.

Ateo

14-Jan-2009, 19:00

Are you sure? Why don't you go look up Crysis and it's support for EAX.

Come back when you can admit your error.

I don't have to, even if a game don support EAX, it dosn't take away the X-Fi's superior 3D positioning...when will you start being intellectual honest?

Except that, again, AA and AF can be applied to essentially every 3D asset. You compared onboard audio to that of an IGP's graphics quality. You know what? My onboard audio gets the same sound positioning and immersion in Crysis as your X-Fi without having to spend another penny.

Are you claming that you soundcard can do 128 hardware accelerated sounds at the same time?
Name you onbaord sound, and you will have relaved your ignorance.

The difference between my pair of 4850's and an Intel GMA would be significantly different in a cutting-edge game like Crysis. You make comparisons where there are none to be made. The "effect" of AA and AF is entirely seperate from EAX -- one can be applied ubiquiteously, one must be specifically coded into the game or else it's entirely useless. And since the number of games that support EAX 5.0 profiles is also incredibly small (among the grand total of games available), it's impact is equally minimized.

You say 'immersion' like it's an automatic thing. It's not.

Edit: Nice edit on your part. I'm ignoring the bullet list, as I already know what EAX is. It doesn't matter, none of those things apply to a game that wasn't specifically written for it. And since the overwhelming majority of games weren't written for it, it isn't like AA and AF in the slightest.

Why do talk about a subject you have no notion about, Mr. my-onboard-sound-can-do-128-hardware-accelerated-simultaneous-sounds :roll:
Lets hear what you hardware is, I love that you have cornered yourself without knowning it :lol:

Albuquerque

14-Jan-2009, 19:02

I don't have to, even if a game don support EAX, it dosn't take away the X-Fi's superior 3D positioning...when will you start being intellectual honest?
Do you really believe this? Because if you do, then this conversation is entirely over. Your assumption here is entirely incorrect; if the game is not written for direct EAX support, then the output from your Xfi is just as positionally accurate as my onboard audio when supporting the same number of channels.

End of discussion.

Ateo

14-Jan-2009, 19:03

Do you really believe this? Because if you do, then this conversation is entirely over. Your assumption here is entirely incorrect; if the game is not written for direct EAX support, then the output from your Xfi is just as positionally accurate as my onboard audio when supporting the same number of channels.

End of discussion.

Yeah run away Mr. my-onboard-sound-can-do-128-hardware-accelerated-simultaneous-sounds...

Albuquerque

14-Jan-2009, 19:06

Yeah run away Mr. my-onboard-sound-can-do-128-hardware-accelerated-simultaneous-sounds...

Until you can understand that audio positioning is directly controlled by the audio stack (in the absence of direct EAX support), your position is indeed the one in error.

Ateo

14-Jan-2009, 19:14

Until you can understand that audio positioning is directly controlled by the audio stack (in the absence of direct EAX support), your position is indeed the one in error.

Still grasping after straws are we?
Didn't you leave?
Did you forget the name of your audio?
You still havn't delivered anything Mr. my-onboard-sound-can-do-128-hardware-accelerated-simultaneous-sounds.

(PS. The next best thing after I went X-Fi was to go from 5.1 to 7.1...I thought 5.1 gave god 3D sound...I was wrong)

Albuquerque

14-Jan-2009, 19:20

Still grasping after straws are we?
Didn't you leave?
Did you forget the name of your audio?
You still havn't delivered anything Mr. my-onboard-sound-can-do-128-hardware-accelerated-simultaneous-sounds.

(PS. The next best thing after I went X-Fi was to go from 5.1 to 7.1...I thought 5.1 gave god 3D sound...I was wrong)

You can flame bait all you like, but you're not addressing the issue here. The difference in audio positioning, sample rate, total simultaneous audio voices and environmental effects between your XFi and anyone's onboard 5.1 audio in Crysis is zero.

It doesn't matter what my onboard audio is, anyone's onboard audio will be identical to your XFi in the example I just gave. EAX only provides those bullet-points when the game is specifically written to support EAX. And since Crysis isn't, I get the same features as you at the end of the day.

Ateo

14-Jan-2009, 19:25

You can flame bait all you like, but you're not addressing the issue here. The difference in audio positioning, sample rate, total simultaneous audio voices and environmental effects between your XFi and anyone's onboard 5.1 audio in Crysis is zero.

It doesn't matter what my onboard audio is, anyone's onboard audio will be identical to your XFi in the example I just gave. EAX only provides those bullet-points when the game is specifically written to support EAX. And since Crysis isn't, I get the same features as you at the end of the day.

All these words, and still you can't post what audiochip you use? :roll:

/sing
Beating around the bush, hope no one hear me...

Albuquerque

14-Jan-2009, 19:29

All these words, and still you can't post what audiochip you use? :roll:

/sing
Beating around the bush, hope no one hear me...

Why does it matter? I've entirely disproven your point. What else is there? I dont' even know what chip it is, it came with the board. I have no reason to go find out, because it's immaterial. The specific vendor who built my onboard audio chip has no bearing on your fallacious argument.

Ateo

14-Jan-2009, 19:46

Why does it matter? I've entirely disproven your point. What else is there? I dont' even know what chip it is, it came with the board. I have no reason to go find out, because it's immaterial. The specific vendor who built my onboard audio chip has no bearing on your fallacious argument.

You might have your self convinced of that, but that you post all these words and still not haave psoted your audiochip sepaks volumes to me.

And when i get home after the 19th I will place my actions where my word is, as I will record Crysis running from my onboard and the running on my X-Fi and post it here.

Unlike you, I deliver and don't beat round the bush.

Albuquerque

14-Jan-2009, 19:51

Crysis has no support for EAX. Thus, the output from Crysis on your XFi and any other soundcard will be identical in total number of voices, positioning, sample rate, and effects.

Period. That's it. It doesn't matter what the other sound card is, so long as Crysis supports it. This is exactly why EAX is not like AA and AF, because if every game could magically get EAX support from nothing else than just buying a card, it would be far more interesting. But it doesn't; the game must be specifically coded for it.

Crysis uses the FMOD audio engine, which does all sound mixing in software and outputs via the DSound (not DS3D, not OpenAL, not EAX) audio stack. That's the reality, and your continued obsession with "what's YOUR soundcard" shows nothing more than your inability to face these facts.

Bludd

14-Jan-2009, 20:14

When I set my X-Fi in Game Mode and enable 5.1 output, by using CMSS-3D surround I can select the upmix mode for stereo sources and the front/rear bias.

Albuquerque

14-Jan-2009, 20:19

When I set my X-Fi in Game Mode and enable 5.1 output, by using CMSS-3D surround I can select the upmix mode for stereo sources and the front/rear bias.

And that would be a case where an external audio card might provide benefit for those who found such a thing interesting. I don't know if my onboard audio provides that kind of solution, although I think I remember seeing it in the Vista audio panel applet...

Either way, I also have a button on my speaker control that allows me to do something like that, although I can't say if it's the same effect or not.

Nevertheless, that's still a function that could be applied regardless of application support. EAX is not such an example; applications that are not written for EAX will not get any of it's benefits or enhancements.

My argument is not with EAX's intended results, my argument is with the widespread and utter lack of application support for EAX -- or at least, more specifically, EAXHD (v4 and greater) which is what provides any audio processing above simple reverb and echo.

Davros

14-Jan-2009, 20:24

Crysis uses the FMOD audio engine, which does all sound mixing in software and outputs via the DSound (not DS3D, not OpenAL, not EAX) audio stack.

So what your saying is the sounds in crysis are not positioned in 3d space ?

ps: ateo compares eax to af on the basis that they both improve quality and on that basis only please understand this

Albuquerque

14-Jan-2009, 20:28

So what your saying is the sounds in crysis are not positioned in 3d space ?
They absolutely are, Crysis places audio quite well in any 5.1 audio system. I'm saying that Crysis makes zero use of EAX to position items in 3D space; it is all computed by the (entirely software) FMOD engine that they licensed.

Keep in mind: you don't need EAX to have 3D positioning.

ps: ateo compares eax to af on the basis that they both improve quality and on that basis only please understand this
That's not where he started, and even so, it's not a true statement. Are we going to qualify that it's just like AA and AF in the 5% of games where it's supported? That's a more accurate statement, and also more accurately reflects why Microsoft likely didn't see a need to continue DS3D support -- because incredibly few people were using it, the grand majority of games (even brand new, big fancy games) are using their own audio engine to provide 3D sound to the masses who didn't spend $100 and more on an external audio card -- but who have direct access to a >= 5.1 audio card already.

Davros

14-Jan-2009, 20:56

They absolutely are, Crysis places audio quite well in any 5.1 audio system. I'm saying that Crysis makes zero use of EAX to position items in 3D space; it is all computed by the (entirely software) FMOD engine that they licensed.

and with cmss enabled the positioning will be enhanced more especially sounds that are in the vertical plane (something most sound cards arnt great at) especially with 2.1 speakers or headphones an xfi card will fake rear channels when downmixing most other cards wont

ps: you sure about fmod being entirely software ?
http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/917/fmodir8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Albuquerque

14-Jan-2009, 21:57

with cmss enabled the positioning will be enhanced more especially sounds that are in the vertical plane (something most sound cards arnt great at) especially with 2.1 speakers or headphones an xfi card will fake rear channels when downmixing most other cards wont
But that's not EAX, and thus it's not part of the original discussion topic is it? Further, vertical-plane placement can only be done if the app provides that data via EAX, so vertical-plane adjustment has no basis in reality for games that are not specifically written for EAX.

The basics are simple: for "enhanced positioning" to occur, the game must know that capability exists and be written to support it. There's no magic wand that anyone can "wave" and suddenly your sound card knows up-from-down in an app that had no concept of it to begin with.

ps: you sure about fmod being entirely software ?

Notice the mention of "acceleration" - this is not EAX, this is acceleration (ie CPU offload) of voice playback. And again, this does not affect total simultaneous voice output, positioning, sample quality or provided effects.

The entire reason for FMOD's existance (and others like it) is to provide an equal sound quality experience for all users, regardless of sound hardware. That quality might indeed be less than what is possible with a true / full EAX implementation, but a true / full EAX implementation completely nullifies the ability to run on everyone's system.

Hardware acceleration can still be leveraged without EAX, just like certain features of CMSS. These are features that are game agnostic; they can legitemately be applied to any application whether or not that app was coded specifically for it. EAX is not the same; it only applies when applications are specifically written for it. The same goes for "positioning" samples within a vertical plane -- unless the game was specifically written to handle such a thing, no amount of external hardware can "make it up".

suryad

15-Jan-2009, 01:56

Really, so EAX is just like AA and AF? You can apply it to any game that supports audio? Because that's not how I recall the situation.

I am not sure if that was originally Ateo's point. I dont want to speak for him but my point was not that either. :) My point was simple...I do think that the X-fi does make a a difference. Also it has to do with how good a speaker set up one has as well. I am definitely not technically savvy enough about EAX...if there is a game that EAX supports, and there's a checkbox in the game options menu that definitely gets enabled.

And yeah I have definitely dodged from the sound of a bullet as well lol. Its quite fun!

Moloch

15-Jan-2009, 02:47

I'd just like to chime in and say that CMSS-3d in my experience is #&(&^# shit, only useful for perhaps making it a bit louder (from outputing to all your speakers), once you've heard descrete 5.1 or better I think emulated surround becomes entirely useless.
The only use I can see for cmss-3d is for headphone users to get (close to) surround useing headphones for games. I do that with my audigy 4, I set the windows control panal to 5.1 so games will output 5.1 and then I set the audigy control panal to headphones with CMss ticked so it downmixes it with the relevant surround cues, similar to dolby headphone.

Bludd

15-Jan-2009, 03:34

willardjuice

15-Jan-2009, 03:46

Sorry to interrupt this flame war, but you can use EAX with FMOD (see Guild Wars). That is all from me!

Moloch

15-Jan-2009, 03:52

I mainly wear headphones while using my computer thus I find CMSS-3D to be a great feature. When I've watched movies with discrete 5.1 sound through my 5.1 setup, CMSS-3D hasn't interfered. Or at least, I haven't noticed it.If you're watching movies with headphones why not just use dolby headphone? It is far superior imo.

Bludd

15-Jan-2009, 04:33

No, I don't agree. I have AC3filter set to output 3/2+SW (5.1) and it sounds great with CMSS-3D in Entertainment Mode. When I use Dolby Headphone in PowerDVD, the sound seems overly compressed.

It is also a hassle to have to disable CMSS-3D all the time. I'd much rather have it enabled all the time.

Moloch

15-Jan-2009, 04:39

That's your opinion ;)
I find it muffles sound more than dolby headphone.
And dolby headphone has nothing to do with powerdvd, it only supports it. Make sure you have powerdvd set for full dynamics, it defaults to normal, which is still compressed.

Bludd

15-Jan-2009, 04:50

Yes, I know, but I have nowhere else to select Dolby Headphone.

I want to correct what I said about compression. What I meant was that the field of sound feels compressed when I enable Dolby Headphone.

Albuquerque

15-Jan-2009, 13:44

I am not sure if that was originally Ateo's point.
If you keep reading, he was under the mistaken impression that simply having an EAX-capable XFi introduced "better positioning" into any game versus what you'd get onboard -- or at least, that's specifically what he claimed. AA and AF work regardless of developer effort, EAX does not -- that is my point.

Now, as for quality (not performance) increase? Only on EAXHD titles, as EAX 3 and below are nothing more than programmable reverb engines. EAX 4 is where it finally started doing something legitemately in 3D space, I think this is after they bought A3D and started taking some notes.

My point was simple...I do think that the X-fi does make a a difference.I believe you, but in the one title I had a chance to listen to, it wasn't enough to warrant the price tag for me.

Davros

15-Jan-2009, 16:53

AA and AF work regardless of developer effort, EAX does not -- that is my point.

like I said before
He compares eax + af on the basis that they both improve quality and only on that basis
not on the basis that it can be enabled in any game, that was you. you decided that becauuse af can be applied in any game he must be saying eax can as well..

Albuquerque

15-Jan-2009, 17:05

like I said before
He compares eax + af on the basis that they both improve quality and only on that basis
not on the basis that it can be enabled in any game, that was you. you decided that becauuse af can be applied in any game he must be saying eax can as well..

He was mixing EAX support and X-Fi product specs as equivalent and making this claim:
don't have to, even if a game don support EAX, it dosn't take away the X-Fi's superior 3D positioning...when will you start being intellectual honest?
This is a lie. X-Fi has no superior 3D positioning unless the application is specifically using EAX. X-Fi does not add things that aren't there. AA and AF can "add things that aren't there". Do you understand this point? Ateo didn't.

I know you're nitpicking on why AA and AF give better results and so do EAX when it works, but that's a very strained observation at best. AA and AF work on 95% of 3D games; EAX doesn't work on 95% of games. This is an invalid analogy.

Davros

15-Jan-2009, 21:15

EAX doesn't work on 95% of games.

Eax is not as rare as you make out
as an experiment I checked the first column of games in my start menu
games with no white line next to them support eax if the game didnt support eax or I couldnt find out then I drew a white line next to it
out of 49 games 22 had eax support thats nearly 50%
http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/5653/gamesqr0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Albuquerque

15-Jan-2009, 21:19

The only case where EAX provides "3d positioning" at any point greater than what you can get on any bog-standard onboard 5.1 audio card is versions 4 and greater.

Please filter your results for games that use EAX 4 or greater, and then come back and tell me how far off I am. EAX 3 and below was, again, nothing more than an enhanced reverb engine with offload capability for voice playback. Positioning in EAX 3 and below was limited to horizontal plane only.

Davros

15-Jan-2009, 21:33

have you any idea how long that bloody took me :( - you got no chance

Albuquerque

15-Jan-2009, 21:38

have you any idea how long that bloody took me :( - you got no chance

LOL, well I can help you out -- creative keeps a list last I checked. EAX 4 is a bit of a red herring, there's not much reason to go looking for it. All the 'good" EAX games use version 5 which was, by far, the best of them all. You get all the really good stuff like audio occlusion mapping and attenuation and of course vertical-plane processing.

EAX 3 is supported by pretty much ALL onboard audio solutions, as Microsoft licensed it from Creative eons ago. You don't get the nice offload capabilities (if that even still matters in the grand CPU-utilization scheme of things), but even my little crappy current onboard audio chip supports it like my prior Envy24 onboard audio did.

willardjuice

15-Jan-2009, 23:11

EAX 3 is supported by pretty much ALL onboard audio solutions, as Microsoft licensed it from Creative eons ago. You don't get the nice offload capabilities (if that even still matters in the grand CPU-utilization scheme of things), but even my little crappy current onboard audio chip supports it like my prior Envy24 onboard audio did.

That is incorrect. EAX 1 and 2 are open for everyone to implement (Microsoft has nothing to do with this, Creative made them open back in the day to gain market share). EAX 3/4/5 (or "EAX HD") must be licensed from Creative (so your Envy24 and integrated audio only support up to EAX 2).

I don't care if you hate Creative as there are many valid reasons to hate them. But you've been spreading around quite a bit of fud in this thread. Please check your statements before making them.

Albuquerque

16-Jan-2009, 13:30

Looks like I was wrong about EAX 3 being licensed from Microsoft, although it's still nothing more than a reverb engine with hardware offload for playback of voices. Further, I challenge you to specifically deny anything else in this thread that you think is FUD. I want to see your specific claims of FUD...

The XFi provides no additional benefit to positioning, sample rate, attenuation, or other such hardware-accelerated effects in games not specifically written to support EAX when compared to another generic 5.1 audio solution.

Further, the only case where vertical panning comes into play is indeed EAX 5, as referenced by the Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_audio_extensions).

And nowhere in this thread did I say I hated Creative nor their products, I've owned them in the past and had generally good luck with them. But today, the cost does not provide sufficient benefit to me. Thus, you can entirely stop putting words into my mouth, and can also stop flame-baiting.