[PS3] Demon Souls [Archive] - Page 2

patsu

02-Nov-2009, 18:33

So the only positive thing about this game is, that it is beyond difficult :shock:

Nope. The difficulty is only one narrow aspect of the game, and it is easy to misunderstand the setup.

The game is not difficult if you play as a Royal. As someone on GAF said, it's almost like cheating the game. :) Both magic and ranged attack are powerful in this game. Most of the bosses have at least one weakness which you can exploit. Once you get a bow, you can kill a lot of enemies from far far away too. You can also summon 2 other players to help you. The obstacles are there to make your journey worthwhile (and less boring !), not to turn people away. Even with these additional help, the game is immersive and atmospheric.

During melee, the regular fighters are strong enough to kill you. So you need to concentrate while you play. The game constantly throws challanges at you, but once you get the hang of it, the game is rather entertaining. I'd say rent it to see if the game suits you -- otherwise, you're missing out on a very unique RPG experience.

In fact, I have been toying with a few playstyles. Put 30 points into Strength to experiment with Dragon Bone Smasher (a super large sword). I could one-shot most enemies and watch them plant their faces into the ground. :) Eventually got killed because I can't roll away effectively with such a heavy sword.

Now going back to my usual swing and roll away technique, killed Black Phantom Satsuki on 4th try. Everyone claimed he's difficult (He's not !). You only need to recognize his weakness (and be brave) after fighting him 2-3 times. He's easy to kill if you're willing to risk it. ^_^ Once you commit to the right strategy (even though it sounds scary/wrong on paper), the game kinda unveils its mysteries and solutions in front of you, which is why I <3 it.

I think I'll stick to this style and put points into my health bar, plus endurance so that I can roll fast with a heavy weapon. If you're good at melee, there are advanced actions you can use too (e.g., parry, pierce, 2-handing a weapon to break enemies' guard). For me, I just hack-n-slash a few times, and then roll away or back up a little to recover stamina.

Ranged attack is nice too but since I chased away the heavy arrow vendor accidentally, I am less effective compared to others. Also tried some high level magic. I think FireStorm is not as good as God's Wrath, but I have chosen the former. :-|

For game guide, people have pretty much figured things out. The online wiki page has all the answers. Once you get into it, discussing Demon's Souls online is fun because there are lot's of tips and strategies to ease the game further. I *think* I just found a new way to kill the third Reaper easily in 4-2. The third Reaper will spawn when you go out to the cliff (after the 2 shadow women). Once I exited the cave, I re-entered it and backtracked to the stairs leading to the second Reaper. Here you can see the Shadow man and the third Reaper to your right (facing the stairs) in plain sight. Takes 2-3 arrows to take the Reaper out. It's like free souls ^_^

Billy Idol

02-Nov-2009, 18:36

Question for example, of all the folk that you have read say it was super hard, how many have said it was too hard for them, and then gave up on it?
You may not like the answer,but wandering through different forums a lot people are frustrated and some of them in fact claim that they sell their game (because of a neural breakdown :razz:)

...or, just pick it up used or something for cheap once the hype wears down some.
The problem is, if I get hooked once I usually cannot resist...so this is very likely to happen :mrgreen:
Nonetheless, thanks for clarifying.

Billy Idol

02-Nov-2009, 18:39

Nope. The difficulty is only one narrow aspect of the game, and it is easy to misunderstand.

The game is not difficult if you play as a Royal. As someone on GAF said, it's almost like cheating the game. :) Both magic and ranged attack are powerful in this game. Most of the bosses have at least one weaknesses to be exploited. Once you get a bow, you can kill a lot of enemies from far far away too. You can also summon 2 other players to help you. The obstacles are there to make your journey worthwhile (and less boring !), not to turn people away. Even with these additional helps, the game is immersive and atmospheric.

During melee, the regular fighters are strong enough to kill you. So you need to concentrate while you play. The game constantly throws challanges at you, but once you get the hang of it, the game is rather entertaining. I'd say rent it to see if the game suits you -- otherwise, you're missing out on a very unique RPG experience.

In fact, I have been toying with a few playstyle now. Put 30 points into Strength to experiment with Dragon Bone Smasher (a super large sword). I could one-shot most enemies and watch them plant their faces into the ground. :) Eventually got killed because I can't roll away effectively with such a heavy sword.

Now going back to my usual swing and roll away technique, killed Black Phantom Satsuki on 4th try. Everyone claimed he's difficult (He's not !). You only need to recognize his weakness after fighting him 2-3 times.

I think I'll stick to this style and put points into my health bar, plus endurance so that I can roll fast with a heavy weapon. If you're good at melee, there are advanced actions you can use too (e.g., parry, pierce, 2-handing a weapon to break enemies' guard). For me, I just hack-n-slash a few times, and then roll away or back up a little to recover stamina.

Ranged attack is nice too but since I chased away the heavy arrow vendor accidentally, I am less effective compared to others. Also tried some high level magic. I think FireStorm is not as good as God's Wrath, but I have chosen the former. :-|

For game guide, people have pretty much figured things out. The online wiki page has all the answers. Once you get into it, discussing Demon's Souls online is fun because there are lot's of tips and strategies to ease the game further. I just found a way to kill the third Reaper easily in 4-2. The third Reaper will spawn when you go out to the cliff (after the 2 shadow women). Once I exited the cave, I re-entered it and backtracked to the stairs leading to the second Reaper. Here you can see the Shadow man and the Reaper to your right (facing the stairs) in plain sight. Takes 2-3 arrows to take the Reaper out. It's like free souls ^_^

Cool, thanks! Your great impressions on the game are a reason why I am interested in it.

Carl B

02-Nov-2009, 18:39

You may not like the answer,but wandering through different forums a lot people are frustrated and some of them in fact claim that they sell their game (because of a neural breakdown :razz:)

Well, I do believe you. It's their loss, but I believe you. :)

patsu

02-Nov-2009, 18:56

Yes, some will quit if they are impatient. That's not necessarily the game's fault though.

The game may be flawed in some ways, but it does not assume the player is dumb. I find myself thinking about the game (solutions and alternate plans) at work because of the challenges. It's been a long time since a game makes me feel this way. If you're scared, there are ways to cheese the bosses anyway as a shortcut to the next stage.

I use them myself to save time. ^_^ But I have a lot of fun fighting the regular guys along the way.

specwarGP2

02-Nov-2009, 20:25

The game is hard because it is unforgiving. You cannot rush into a situation and just start mashing buttons and expect to come out alive. You have to plan out your attack. Even when you've built up your character so he's strong enough to one hit kill strong enemies, they can still overwhelm you and kill you easily if you're careless.

The game makes you experiment with multiple strategies to successfully overcome a particular encounter. During that process you will inevitably die. As others have mentioned, it never really feels unfair when you do die and there is a great sense of accomplishment when you do succeed.

deathindustrial

03-Nov-2009, 03:25

Regardless of whether the game is good or not (I mostly think the good outweighs the bad), it most certainly is capable of leaving the user feeling that a death is unfair. People are using the catch term "difficult" to the point of machismo when what really is going on is a terrible to mediocre game engine put into the hands of gifted level designers and artists. This game is good in spite of itself - it tries very hard at times to convince you it is a steaming turd but then surprises with ICO style atmosphere.

It's control implementation is often *very* poor as is the in game camera. There is at least one level from what I have seen so far that is close to being unplayable due to horrific camera issues (can't target enemies without lock on but lock on causes the camera to swing behind walls / objects). It also certainly does not feel fair when you tumble to your death because lock on decided to latch on to an enemy beneath you and then swung your character around and off the ledge.

The game has tons of that sort of clunky behaviour. While that provides a bit of a puzzle feel (a la Dragon Slayer or other laser disc games) I think it is odd that Demon Souls gets a pass here when other games are called to task when the controls and camera suck. For some reason with Demon Souls it seems to be considered a "feature".

People also do not seem to mention issues like uninterruptible NPC dialogue (which makes using the merchants a tad annoying after a while) or lack of iterators in the inventory (able to select n from a list to use). The forced repetition due to lack of save points is another obvious glaring issue. Yes you need to level your character, yes you need to learn the ropes. However you have no way of knowing in many, MANY cases that what lies ahead is instant death. So it is pretty lame that a game that is designed around killing you punishes the user by not providing arbitrary saving to avoid grinding the same areas over and over. The lack of map also sucks when you have to retrace your steps.

The multiplayer aspect is also not always all that great. A good portion of the messages you read are either unnecessary spoilers (i.e. not helpful) or useless. The mechanism for getting them off of your screen is also broken (you have to move away which is dangerous in some cases).

Where Demon Souls excels is atmosphere. What would in most other games be considered terrible AI (sits there dumb as a stick until you get within a specific range, very canned behaviour) is a bonus in this game because it allows the user time to look around and take things in.

I am still undecided on whether I think this game is worth the effort but it is for sure different and I do like the old school atmosphere.

Cheers

Carl B

03-Nov-2009, 04:20

Deathindustrial some of what you are saying with regards to getting things off your screen isn't accurate; you can press 'x' in order to speed through merchant dialogue, and likelise in order to clear messages you are reading off of your screen - you don't need to move away from them in order to do so.

Also the lack of save points thing is a contradiction - everywhere is a save point! It's just what is saved here isn't character location, but character state. And the map feature - hey, that's why you have those guiding light stones you can use. I definitely got lost on several levels when I was first going through them, but now I think I have every level in the game completely memorized. Maybe it's a failed design, maybe it's a 'feature'... but it is satisfying to feel that level of self mastery in a game again.

The lock-on and camera though could use improvement, I won't argue anyone there, save to say you can compensate for it a bit if you anticipate in advance what you predict it will do.

patsu

03-Nov-2009, 06:44

That's right. deathindustrial's post has a few factual errors (e.g., No save, and uninterruptible dialogue). In fact, the game saves and restores you to the exact same spot. I interrupt the merchants' speeches all the time also.

The camera is controlled by the user. The only time the camera is out of your hands is during lock-on. You need to react quickly to disable it when some enemies try to disorientate you (e.g., The Maneater boss fight.). That's partly why the player has to pay full attention to the battle on-hand. Every little detail counts, and is controllable by the user. I just completed said boss fight 5 minutes ago. Died once because I lept off the stage due to the lock-on and desparation. Needed to get away from boss quickly, so I jumped without looking where I should land on. Second time round, I am more careful with the lock-on. Managed to clear the stage on second try.

I don't know how you can compare it to a Laser Disc game. This is a 3D action RPG title, with embedded online features not found in any other game. Beyond the main mission, there are tons of equipments, character stats, sidequests to dwell on. You can also play co-op or PvP with folks.

The player messages can be helpful, deceiving, misunderstood, or useless. Then again, so is the B3D forum. It'd be missing the point altogether if people close down B3D just because some messages are useless or deceiving. The messages have user rating. You also have blood stain "memory system" to complement the user content. It's usually pretty easy to decide which way to swing.

There are some missing elements (e.g., Cannot peek into dropped items -- The player has to add a dropped item to the inventory before finding out what the item is). The lock-on can be improved to make it more friendly (e.g., don't center the lock-on). The combat is the most fun so far. Every enemy is different and deadly.

You can check the GAF official thread here for other opinions. Unfortunately, they are largely positive.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=350591

EDIT:
Heh heh, got invaded by 2 more phantoms. Cornered the first one and killed him with my Dragon Long Sword + 4. Unfortunately, I fell to my death together with the second phantom in 4-2. Since he's invading, he'll lose a stat point for terrain kill (Serve him right ! ^_^). Now back to my soul form. Going to pick up my souls now.

deathindustrial

03-Nov-2009, 08:20

Not to sound overly argumentative but it sounds like you folks are playing a different game than me some times.

=)

In the Nexus (for example), I have found no way to skip the intro or outro dialogue components of the guy that holds your stuff, the weapons dealer, the lady with the wax on her eyes, etc. x did not work for me nor o or any other key press. I'll give it another try next time I play in case I am suffering amnesia or something but I did try pretty hard to skip the dialogue as it got stale.

With respects to saving, I do not consider "exit game" equivalent to convenient save points. I am talking about the kind of saving you have in say, Fallout 3 where you can save your spot (in a new or the same slot) and trivially go back to it if anytime without ending your game.

In Demon's Souls if you just want to hedge your bets against an potentially dangerous action with unknown consequences coming up (like whether you can run past the dragon on the bridge in one of the earlier levels), it doesn't seem like that is supported.

If I am wrong there, please explain how you save your state before an action and then revert back if things go wrong (without exiting the game altogether).

Cheers

Carl B

03-Nov-2009, 13:55

If I am wrong there, please explain how you save your state before an action and then revert back if things go wrong (without exiting the game altogether).

Cheers

There is no reversion, but that is the point; the game is auto-saving all the time - it saves before you fall, and then it saves immediately afterwards as well. You can't undo mistakes in this game if that's the issue we're talking about, I agree with you there. But that's what makes it hardcore. ;)

My friends and I growing up even through the original Nintendo era had a term we used for saving before disaster struck and going back to that save game because the results were unpleasant. I won't repeat it here because it was crafted from the minds of adolescent boys, but suffice to say that in that context through which I still view game saves, the inability to do so in this game I found a bit exciting.

I understand I'm just describing a situation that particularly suits my craving for challenge in these sorts of games (to date I think I've lost ~500K souls in the game... or more... to deaths - souls I never recovered), but there should at least be one good game out there that echos these precepts, and for better or worse, Demon's Souls is it.

patsu

03-Nov-2009, 13:57

Yes, and you have 4 character slots if you want to experiment with different character setup and story lines.

And yes, you can't cheat the system by turning off the PS3 when you die. That's why I repeatedly said you are committed once you choose an action. ^_^

It adds an additional emotion level to the experience, and you really learn to live with and live by your choices.

EDIT:
xbd, where does Yurt linger ?

I saved him in 3-2 and then went back to the Nexus right away. Can't find him. I thought he's on the huge second floor area. When does he appear in the Nexus ?

EDIT 2:
I re-read deathindustrial's post.

The multiplayer aspect is also not always all that great. A good portion of the messages you read are either unnecessary spoilers (i.e. not helpful) or useless. The mechanism for getting them off of your screen is also broken (you have to move away which is dangerous in some cases).

Press X to dismiss the current player message. The message dialog disappears and the character stays in the same position. You don't move at all to get the messages off the screen. I suspect you may have pressed O accidentally. O is "leap backwards" (assuming the analog sticks are neutral).

While you're at it, press [select] to recommend the message if you think it's worthy.

It does sound like you're playing a different game from the rest of us. ^_^
Might want to double-check whether your controller is broken, especially the X key. You press X to interrupt the NPCs' dialog too. If you press it too late, the NPC may finish his/her sentence regardless. If you hit X early enough, he/she will skip the current line.

oramay

04-Nov-2009, 03:27

So the only positive thing about this game is, that it is beyond difficult :shock: ...

It's not that difficult! This game is unforgiving in that any mistakes you make, like wasting items to create useless equipments, turning useful NPC's hostile etc. can't be undone. You can't backup your save.

However, in terms of fighting your way through the game, it's not that hard. I don't have good reflex myself but have not been dying as much as you seem to imagine. All through the game, I've only genuinely felt frustrated in one particular area, where the enemies and area design make life very hard for my combination of equipments and playing style. That area isn't hard for others from what I gather.

It's not so very hard if you're willing to progress cautiously and spend time to get a few very useful equipments (may be with the help of a guide or wiki).

... EDIT:
xbd, where does Yurt linger ?

I saved him in 3-2 and then went back to the Nexus right away. Can't find him. I thought he's on the huge second floor area. When does he appear in the Nexus ?

...

He should show up after one boss fight or so.

Carl B

04-Nov-2009, 13:23

Y
EDIT:
xbd, where does Yurt linger ?

Yeah it's on the second floor - he's tucked into one of the grooves against the stair-side of the wall, on the right if you are looking up towards the stairs from the Nexus center.

betan

04-Nov-2009, 16:21

Carl, without a guide how long did it take you to finish it?

Carl B

04-Nov-2009, 16:45

It took me a little under 70 hours, though I'm sure I could have done it much more quickly if that was my goal. I was committed to trying to explore as much as I could though, for the aforementioned 'lack of guide' situation.

I'm not sure if that will seem like a long amount of time or not to folk; for myself though it's about where I like an RPG experience to be. :)

I should note that I've put another ~20 hours or so into the game since completion.

patsu

04-Nov-2009, 16:56

70 hours is a good number.

I think I'm about 50 hours in. I'm only half done and am already approaching soul level 90 because I love farming and fighting with the small guys over their loot.

The boss fights scared the sh*t out of me, so I guess I needed more time to muster up my courage to even cheese them. :-P

All through the game, I've only genuinely felt frustrated in one particular area, where the enemies and area design make life very hard for my combination of equipments and playing style. That area isn't hard for others from what I gather.

5-* ? That's the world I have not explored yet. :)

patsu

04-Nov-2009, 22:03

For the Deluxe Edition folks...
http://atlus.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5072

Dearest Customers,

Over the last couple weeks, we’ve received reports from owners of the Deluxe Edition of Demon’s Souls that some copies of the Official Strategy Guide were experiencing unusual cover ink wear/fading.

While it seems that not every copy of the guide is affected, and the specific cause of the issue remains unclear, Atlus always strives for nothing less than the full satisfaction of our customers. Therefore, we will soon launch a program to replace defective strategy guides.

Stay tuned for details on when the program will begin and specific steps on how to submit your replacement request. We can say at this time that we will ask customers to mail in their cover and the first page of their guide as proof of purchase, leaving them with a usable book while we process their replacement claim. Full instructions will be posted in this thread next week.

Thank you for supporting us and making Demon’s Souls such a big hit. We apologize for any inconvenience this issue has caused, but fear not: we’ve got you covered (pun intended).

oramay

05-Nov-2009, 02:15

...

5-* ? That's the world I have not explored yet. :)

5-* is unpleasant in the visual look of the environment, and I have to bring enough items to handle the poison and plague as well. I surely don't like that world, but I didn't die much in it. The area I died most was 4-2, usually near the last 2 reapers. It's really a combination of my character setup, playing style, and the design of that area. In the end, after many failures, I found a pretty safe routine that works for me. I've watched videos of others going through that part since and it really shouldn't be so hard.

deathindustrial

05-Nov-2009, 04:12

Press X to dismiss the current player message. The message dialog disappears and the character stays in the same position. You don't move at all to get the messages off the screen. . . . .Might want to double-check whether your controller is broken, especially the X key. You press X to interrupt the NPCs' dialog too. If you press it too late, the NPC may finish his/her sentence regardless. If you hit X early enough, he/she will skip the current line.

Feeling sheepish on this one but it looks like a mix of a crappy controller but mostly impatience. My original DS3 now has a glitchy left shoulder button which I have to hold outward with one of my fingers if I want to make sure it will not trigger by accident. I bought a new red DS3 since I had last played Demon's Souls and yup, dialogue is interruptible and yup I can skip the messages.

=(

I should note that with messages if I hit "x" too quickly, the tap is ignored so I think I assumed that it was my movement that was making the menu disappear and not the x button.

As an aside, is it a Wiki reference when you folks use "1-2" or "4-3" to denote levels or is that somewhere in the game?

One thing that caught me twice today was not knowing when fog leads to a boss and dying immediately because of it. This game is mean.

Cheers

patsu

05-Nov-2009, 05:26

This page explains the world numbering system:
http://demonssouls.wikidot.com/concepts

The other thing to worry about is getting overburdened. If your total equipped weight is more than half your max. equipment load, you will become clumsy in battle. The character may fall when rolling, and generally takes longer to recover his/her posture. Got myself killed in 3-3 boss battle because I equipped the heavier Purple Flame Shield before I went through the fog door (D'oh...)

5-* is unpleasant in the visual look of the environment, and I have to bring enough items to handle the poison and plague as well. I surely don't like that world, but I didn't die much in it. The area I died most was 4-2, usually near the last 2 reapers. It's really a combination of my character setup, playing style, and the design of that area. In the end, after many failures, I found a pretty safe routine that works for me. I've watched videos of others going through that part since and it really shouldn't be so hard.

Yes, the first and third Reaper were easy. You can shoot them since they are in plain sight (or in the latter case, you can force it to spawn in plain sight). The second Reaper is tougher to get to. During the Halloween event, 4-2 added 3 Golden Skeleton Black Phantoms to the same location. I died quite a few times fighting them. The last Golden Skeleton BPs gives 12,000 souls, so I can't complain. ;)

I only have 5-2, 5-3, 1-3 and 1-4 left now.

patsu

06-Nov-2009, 00:54

Demon's Souls: The Most Boring Game of the Year ^_^
http://www.edge-online.com/blogs/the-most-boring-game-year

Sure, I could praise the aesthetics: the game has atmosphere to spare and deftly uses it to rachet up the tension. The voice acting would chill Dickens. The walls would scare off mold. And the sound design is hollow, haunted and mostly music free, because music would make you feel safe. But that’s just garnish for the gameplay. By demanding your twitches and your tactics, by keeping you alert in even the most familiar passages, and by demanding and rewarding your total focus, it lures you into a state of serene concentration and sustains it for hours at a stretch. It’s not “flow”, because flow implies progress; it’s more like tantric sex with a slide rule. I don’t know how else to put it.
The hell with saving the world. I’ll take navel-gazing this sublime any day.

I think he kinda gets it right, although it's not boring to watch per se. I watched someone else streamed their gameplay over justin.tv near launch.

... and Director Interview ! I was wondering if they are ever going to let me know who designed the game. ^_^
http://gameinformer.com/games/demons_souls/b/ps3/archive/2009/11/05/feature-demon-s-souls-director-discusses-difficulty-sequels-and-more.aspx

GI: Not including the Nexus, there are a total of five worlds in the game. How many "leftover" or abandoned world ideas did you have at the end?

HM: I had a lot of ideas during the early design stage. The world ideas that came the closest to making it into the final product were the Library stage and the Outside area around the Nexus.

GI: There's a lot of variety in the bosses, with some battles like Old Hero or Flamelurker requiring serious, intense combat skills, while others like Dragon God are more like big puzzles that you need to figure out. How did you decide the balance for that?

HM: When designing the bosses, I made sure that they would be varied and exciting. I prepared different gameplay and strategies for each one so that players didn’t get tired of the same fight every time. We wanted to surprise players and encourage them to figure out different tactics, to think on their feet.

Each boss has a concept that can be described very simply. The Maneater, for instance, can be summed up by saying “there’s another enemy.”

The interviewer is wrong. ^_^
The Old Hero does not require intense battle. In fact, you don't have to swing your sword once. It's also a puzzle, but you can melee him if you want (or can't figure out the puzzle).

The Flamelurker fight is more intense, and yet also manageable if you know its weakness. People who tackle it head-on will generally have a harder time.

obonicus

06-Nov-2009, 02:26

I'm not sure if this was posted before, but Leigh Alexander wrote an article for Kotaku on DS:
http://kotaku.com/5392920/in-praise-of-hard-games

There's quotes from Takeshi Kajii, the game's producer:

"I do not think that games must be accessible to be appealing," Demon's Souls producer Takeshi Kajii told me in an interview. "If you make a game accessible it will expand the audience. However, if we were to make all games accessible, wouldn't you eventually get tired of the same thing?"

On the multiplayer:

Enriched by its multiplayer element, the game allows players to see the bloodstains of other fallen heroes, and touch them to view how they died. Players can leave notes and messages for one another warning of tough spots up ahead, and can also recruit the phantoms of players that have died to help them handle challenges. Kajii says this system of strangers helping strangers came from a real-life experience of his, a time when his car was stuck on a snowy mountainside.

Numerous stranded drivers all banded together to push each of the cars in turn, but Kajji couldn't stay behind to thank his benefactors, lest he end up stranded again. "I wondered about things like whether the last person made it home, whether I'd ever meet the people who helped me again... Maybe if I'd met them somewhere else, I would've made friends with them... Many thoughts crossed my mind," he said. "This occurrence of helping complete strangers was strangely very memorable, and I kept thinking about it for a very long time.

patsu

06-Nov-2009, 06:34

Nice quotes !

That is exactly the feeling I have when playing Demon's Souls: I wanted to thank those anonymous someone who helped me when I needed it most. Yet we had to part ways quickly because the place was too dangerous to stay, and we had our own quests ahead of us. It's a strangely lonely feeling.

It's also fun to share Demon's Souls experiences with fellow "heroes".

I also like this part:

The key to effective difficulty, as opposed to frustration that's just frustrating, is all in the implementation. "Doing something hard isn't fun in and of itself," said Yu. " It's not fun to sit in an empty room and try to balance a ball on your head for 10 hours straight. To make challenge effective, you have to provide an interesting game world and create deep mechanics that are entertaining to play with and very satisfying to master."

I think the new controller also needs deep mechanics to hold people's attention over a long period (e.g., swinging with a real golf technique, or tennis strokes, etc.). Deep and yet familiar or easy-to-try mechanics.

PARANOiA

06-Nov-2009, 11:04

obonicus

06-Nov-2009, 11:17

Most of the issues I have with the game are in its controls. Having to click the camera-stick to lock onto a target instantly takes my hands off of action buttons.

I'm not sure I understand. You don't have to remove your fingers from the shoulder buttons. You mean being unable to roll or cast?

patsu

06-Nov-2009, 11:38

Most of the issues I have with the game are in its controls. Having to click the camera-stick to lock onto a target instantly takes my hands off of action buttons.

This is how I play:

My left fingers are still available to shield up (L1). I can also switch weapons on-the-fly with the left hand face buttons while toying with R3 lock-on/off.

Since the lock-on is sticky, I can follow up immediately with R1 to swing my weapon. Or O to roll.

By the time I reached the archdemon in 4-4, I was toggling the lock-on, rolling and shooting in continuous flow. All the flying mantas were dead in a matter of minutes.

Stage 5 is problematic though. The swamp prevented me from rolling. All I could do was sprint. Now that's a hard level.

This is not an ok-implementation of controls where a death can mean hours or more of retracing my steps to get me back to where I was, not to mention the time wasted in terms of trying to actually progress. Add to this the feeling of frustration you feel by the trial-and-error level design - which would be ok if the game was more forgiving - teads to a feeling that depth here has been replaced by difficultly.

That's why I focus on the screen, scanning for signs of danger, and clicking R3 to check for hidden enemies from time to time. I never run in a new level. Only run when I am on familiar ground.

Check blood stains and messages when something doesn't seem right.

Having to read an FAQ to get through a game is pretty much poor design, IMO.

The wiki is useful to speed up the game. After some initial deaths, most of the time I only die twice at most for the entire stage. In some cases, I didn't die at all. I got killed by invading Black Phantoms though. :)

Most RPGs would require player interaction to see what weapons are worthwhile, what skills are useful anyway. Also most levels have shortcuts you can unlock to shorten the path. However, replaying the same stage to recover your body is a blessing in disguise. Killing the enemies along the way would leave useful health items, weapons, antidotes, upgrade ingredients, etc. to help strengthen your position by the time you got back to the enemy that killed you previously.

The enemies are usually easier to kill on second or third try.

Overall, it's a really interesting experience, and worth my time. I can't wait for a fun game in the same design, but Demon's Souls is definitely not fun, in most senses of the word.

To each his own !

PARANOiA

06-Nov-2009, 11:39

Well, rolling is an issue since it's basically a situation of lock on once I'm close enough (since most enemies charge me once I'm in range to lock on) or more importantly move out of the way! Since I'm trying to pan the camera and lock on (and I can't cast without locking on) the AI generally attacks me before I get a chance to escape. Then I either choose to lock on (and take a hit) or roll away and not be able to lock on/fight back.

The classic case for me was acutally 1-1. Try going up the castle as a caster. I can't actually access my shortcut while trying to lock-on to the guys just after the staircase on the left without getting well within their range. I can't lock-on comfortable and back away without walking out of range (and un-locking them to cast), so I have to try and lead them out, stick-click (meaning no actions and minimal camera movement, which is all character-centric) and trying to not lose precious life.

Either way, I sure someone will tell me I should tap a combination of R3, then O then L2 or something... but either way it's all fairly clunky. People can tell me I should be playing it differently, but at the end of the day it's not an intuitive control scheme, and it's off-putting.

Like I said, I enjoy the concept, but the execution I find to be sorely lacking. I'll stick with it for what it is, but I think a game in a similar vein - world-view, knowledge sharing, character levelling, etc - with functional controls and a more intuititive design would easily be my game of the generation. For now it's a good try, and I can't wait for someone to improve on it.

PARANOiA

06-Nov-2009, 11:42

This is how I play:

My left fingers are still available to shield up (L1). I can also switch weapons on-the-fly with the left hand face buttons while toying with R3 lock-on/off.

Since the lock-on is toggle/sticky, I can also follow up immediately with R1 to swing my weapon. Or O to roll.

Don't you think having to repeatedly click R3 just to try and attack an enemy is a bit of a poor control scheme? And by nature, you'll lock on, and then unlock an enemy because you're clicking all the time.

Auto-lock on - at least as an option - would be far more preferable. Actually, a PC with mouse would beat all other contenders!

patsu

06-Nov-2009, 17:48

Auto-lockon would spoil the element of surprise :)

Which level are you in now ?

There are cases where enemies disguise themselves as part of the landscape. You will need to scan the environment intently like in a horror movie, or use lock-on to identify hidden enemies when you suspect foul play. Occasionally I would use my bow's FPS view and zoom into the distance to scout my route. The level is full of danger in some places, the game forces you to take care of yourself with simple but adequate tools. Auto lock-on would have dumbed down your senses. It won't be as engrossing. Might get yourself killed by cheap traps too. If you play the game as intended, you will see the lurking dangers (Again: blood stains, player messages, hole in the ground, or partially hidden monsters).

Secondly, when lock-on is enabled, the game centers the screen based on the reticule. This will help you tremendously when fighting fast enemies (e.g., fighting Black Phantoms). Auto-lockon would mean you lose control when you approach every enemy.

With the current setup, the game gives the player full control of the camera, and also control over whether you want tracking lock-on or not. It is more versatile than "auto-cruise" like feature. Note that you don't need lock-on to kill an enemy.

At the beginning you will roll more with lock-on enabled, because it helps you to circle strafe weak/regular enemies. Sometimes when fighting strong enemies, you want to roll without lock-on (RUN !!!). If you think toggling lock-on is too hard, then the better technique is to lure enemies out of their hiding places and take them one by one on safe ground.

My advice is to get a bow asap. It will simplify the game greatly because you can lure and hurt monsters at the same time at a safe distance. Or use the soul fragments to attract enemies. You have all the tools you need, and they all work adequately. Just not powerful enough to dumb down your senses. Yes, it requires you to handle all the details but at the same time, your will pay attention to your every move (or risk dying more).

Once you have died in a level, the game becomes noticeably easier because you know where the danger are. Even with a half-health soul form, the player should be able to clear old enemies relatively quickly and grab their loot.

I cleared the pretty difficult 5-2 last night. Got chased by giant enemies across poisonous swamp that dampens your movement (like those nightmares where you can't run because your feet are weighted down). It's pretty terrifying but once you know the lingering danger, there are enough tools to help you complete the level (Think hard and play smart -- Convenient combat feature is not the only answer to great gaming)

deathindustrial

06-Nov-2009, 19:07

Auto-lockon would spoil the element of surprise :)

There are different types of auto-lock on, a "soft" aim assist would not spoil anything. I would argue that it is the broken aiming mechanics in DS that require lock on in the first place.

I keep harping on it but the soul arrow of the Royal is totally useless without lock on as you basically cannot control where the shot goes without it. Aiming is based on where the character is facing but you really only have fine control over the camera. Even if you get the character facing the right direction, there seems to be a very coarse quantization of the shot direction so that you can only shoot in widely different arcs with little fine control - neither where you want the shot to go.

=)

There is a spot in 2-1 (I think that is where it is at) where you can stand on a raised stone wall across from a lower wooden platform with one of those laughing plump fire tossing Beefeaters. You should be able to stand there and fire off shots in between ducking down to avoid getting set on fire but as it is too far for lock on, it is almost impossible to target the enemy from there.

I haven't tried a bow yet though so that weapon may not be has fubar'd.

Secondly, when lock-on is enabled, the game centers the screen based on the reticule. This will help you tremendously when fighting fast enemies (e.g., fighting Black Phantoms).

I find that the lock-on often causes issues when multiple enemies attack. Getting mobbed by dogs would be a good example, lock on isn't fast enough to deal with it very well but it is very good at causing you to be unable to hit the dog that is actually biting you that second. I know you have stated that the solution is to "not get mobbed" but that is not always possible.

With the current setup, the game gives the player full control of the camera, and also control over whether you want tracking lock-on or not. It is more versatile than "auto-cruise" like feature. Note that you don't need lock-on to kill an enemy.

It seems you do if you are not using a weapon with a really wide arc like the battle axe, or at least it can be really difficult to actually hit anything without it. Well, for us mere mortals anyway.

=)

Once you have died in a level, the game becomes noticeably easier because you know where the danger are. Even with a half-health soul form, the player should be able to clear old enemies relatively quickly and grab their loot.

The grinding gets to be rather, ahem, grinding after a while though. Maybe it is a stats thing. . .all of my stats are still around the 11 - 13 mark so perhaps it will get better once I can actually carry something other than my now +5 rapier.

Oh, is there actually any point to going back to human form other than to be completist?

Cheers

patsu

06-Nov-2009, 19:27

There are different types of auto-lock on, a "soft" aim assist would not spoil anything. I would argue that it is the broken aiming mechanics in DS that require lock on in the first place.

The reticule needs to track fast moving characters because they will circle you very quickly. Soft aiming would be useless against the skeletons and black phantoms for example. It may work better in shooters where you seldom need to engage enemies up close and personal.

I keep harping on it but the soul arrow of the Royal is totally useless without lock on as you basically cannot control where the shot goes without it. Aiming is based on where the character is facing but you really only have fine control over the camera. Even if you get the character facing the right direction, there seems to be a very coarse quantization of the shot direction so that you can only shoot in widely different arcs with little fine control - neither where you want the shot to go.

=)

Aiming is tied to the lock-on reticule so that you can move and shoot in third person view. As it stands, magic is extremely powerful in DS. You can kill the toughest boss with magic alone.

Use a bow if you want precise, first person view aiming.

There is a spot in 2-1 (I think that is where it is at) where you can stand on a raised stone wall across from a lower wooden platform with one of those laughing plump fire tossing Beefeaters. You should be able to stand there and fire off shots in between ducking down to avoid getting set on fire but as it is too far for lock on, it is almost impossible to target the enemy from there.

I think that's intentional level design, not necessarily a weapon range limitation. There are many cases where Soul Arrow range is more than adequate. Even if the Soul Arrow has longer range in the above scenario you mentioned, they may still put the Fat Official slightly out of range so that you go near it. :)

I haven't tried a bow yet though so that weapon may not be has fubar'd.

From your posts, it sounds more like you're not comfortable with the level design because it puts you in danger deliberately.

I haven't seen a fubar'd DS weapon yet.

There are weapons that won't work in narrow corridor, there are weapons with long and short range, there are weapons ineffective against certain monsters.

I find that the lock-on often causes issues when multiple enemies attack. Getting mobbed by dogs would be a good example, lock on isn't fast enough to deal with it very well but it is very good at causing you to be unable to hit the dog that is actually biting you that second. I know you have stated that the solution is to "not get mobbed" but that is not always possible.

Yes, it is difficult to target the right dogs when they attack in packs. Then again, when you swing, you may hit multiple dogs at the same time. I usually back away and take Soul Arrow shots. Or swing the weapon without lock on.

It seems you do if you are not using a weapon with a really wide arc like the battle axe, or at least it can be really difficult to actually hit anything without it. Well, for us mere mortals anyway.

=)

Don't use that weapon if it doesn't fit your style and situation. ^_^
Each weapon has its characteristics. Some are great for causing certain kind of damage, some have slower swing, etc.

People told me the magic sword, Makoto is great. I tried it, couldn't kill skeletons with the katana despite having larger damage. So I dumped it back at Thomas'.

The grinding gets to be rather, ahem, grinding after a while though. Maybe it is a stats thing. . .all of my stats are still around the 11 - 13 mark so perhaps it will get better once I can actually carry something other than my now +5 rapier.

Oh, is there actually any point to going back to human form other than to be completist?

I chucked away my rapier long ago and used the Crescent Falchion from 4-1. I went there right after beating 1-2. The Dragon Sword in 2-1 is good too. I use that more now. It has very nice fire damage and effect.

Human form is good for co-op session and it allows you to change World Tendency darker (by committing suicide in the level). Human form also has longer life but deal smaller damage.

specwarGP2

06-Nov-2009, 21:03

I don't necessarily agree with any of the above. I think the concept of Demon's Souls is really intereting and unique, but its implementations is at best average.

Most of the issues I have with the game are in its controls. Having to click the camera-stick to lock onto a target instantly takes my hands off of action buttons. This is not an ok-implementation of controls where a death can mean hours or more of retracing my steps to get me back to where I was, not to mention the time wasted in terms of trying to actually progress. Add to this the feeling of frustration you feel by the trial-and-error level design - which would be ok if the game was more forgiving - teads to a feeling that depth here has been replaced by difficultly.

I agree with this. The lock on can be extremely annoying. it's very annoying in NG+ because the enemies take out a lot of health when they hit you.

Lock on needs a lot of work for DS2. I would like it to be that it only locks on to enemies you can see, and you can engage a lock on as long as you can see them, even if its a tiny bit. Right now you can be right in front of an enemy and lock on wont engage because you arent looking at them directly or long enough or whatever reason. Also the distance for lock on needs to be longer... magic users are at a serious disadvantage because of this.

Oh and another thing. If I raise my shield, I want my character to be able to strafe and be locked into the forward facing position. What good is it to be able to hold up your shield if its not facing towards the enemy?

patsu

06-Nov-2009, 21:09

I don't think lock-on depends on line-of-sight at all. The game will swing me around when someone is above or behind me. It's more proximity based. You can indeed lock on to a partially obscured enemy (e.g. on the 4-1 cliffs).

Magic users get very powerful area attack spells (e.g. Gods Wrath, FireStorm) when the enemy is near the character.

It is probably how the game balances out in NG+ (well, and NG too). The lock-on is not perfect but it is useful enough to get serious about the battles. I am not sure if there is a well rounded lock-on in this game given the variety of scenarios and enemies.

specwarGP2

06-Nov-2009, 21:21

I don't think lock-on depends on line-of-sight at all. The game will swing me around when someone is above or behind me. It's more proximity based.

It cant be proximity based. Ok in 2-1. the passageway that has fog over the doorway and is guarded by 3 dudes with flame spears. Its right by where you first gain access to the shortcut by breaking through the wagon thats blocking it.

Ok so getting back to the passageway... once you enter the fog the passageway slopes up and theres a corner at the top where there's a pickaxe guy waiting to ambush you. If lockon worked by proximity, I would be able to lock on to this dude as soon as I turn the corner, but I cant. In fact you cant lock on to him until he turns the corner and is actually coming down the passage way for a fair distance. In ng+ this is really annoying because he takes off tons of energy.

Also those octopus head dudes in 3-1... you can be waiting for them on one side of a doorway and they will be like a few feet away from you on the other side and you still can't lock on to them, even though you can see their entire body! you have to wait for them to walk through the doorway then you can lock on. So annoying!!!!

patsu

06-Nov-2009, 21:47

Do these situations occur only near doorways ?

I am asking because I saw a bug during the Halloween event. The dual katana black skeleton outside 4-2 could be not locked on when it passed through the doorway. It was directly in front of me. I had to run away, and give it another go at a different position.

In another instance, the Black Phantom skeletons in 4-2 (after the 2 invisible women) would disappear between the doorway and the sharp turn outside. I could lock on to it but I couldn't see the skeleton at all.

In general, I use a bow to attack/aggro them. I think the blast from God's Wrath can attack through wall too (The guide says so). So you don't have to worry about Magic users too much.

As a melee only user, you can throw Soul Remains to lure the enemy out.

But back to your original point, I think you could be right. Enemies behind and above me are still within my line of sight. It is possible to lock-on as long as you have partial view of the enemy. I do that often on the 4-1 cliffs.

specwarGP2

06-Nov-2009, 22:12

Do these situations occur only near doorways ?

no not only in doorways. in 1-2, you cross the first bridge span with the dragon flying over and breathing fire. when you get to the tower and go up the stairs you will encounter a dude with a spear on the sthe stairwell. You can clearly see him and he will be in lock on range, but you cannot lock on to him until he starts moving towards you.

The lock on is unpredictable. I know it's a combination of distance, view and some other factor(s). This game would be outstanding if it wasnt for the annoying lock on issues. As it is, its still pretty good though :smile:

patsu

06-Nov-2009, 22:16

Hmm... I haven't have this happen to me other than the 2 cases I mentioned above.

It sounds more like a bug than a design issue. What weapons were you using ?

2real4tv

07-Nov-2009, 18:01

just got my copy

Yemeth

07-Nov-2009, 18:48

just got my copy

Good luck and enjoy!

corduroygt

07-Nov-2009, 20:51

I just got done with the tutorial as the royalty class and lock on just kills it for me, I'll probably retry as a hack and slasher. I am against using R3 and L3 in games for critical functions such as this. They should be treated as select and/or start buttons, and used only for secondary functions.
Not only it's a pain to lock on, the range is only about 10 meters, sort of defeats the purpose of the whole lock on thing.

patsu

07-Nov-2009, 23:16

Heh heh, I see many don't like the lock-on. At one point, I was trying to think of a better way too. But after seeing all the enemies so far, I can understand why they chose the current solution.

Btw, even if the ranged attack is only 10 feet away, it can be a lot safer than you think. At the starting levels, many melee enemies can kill you easily. But the "useless" Soul Arrow is a one-hit kill to almost all the enemies in 1-1. You have free MP-regen ring too. The game wouldn't be Demon's Souls if you can one-shot all the enemies from a comfortable distance, and don't need to spend a single $$ to buy ammo so to speak.

If you want really long range attack, use a Compound Long Bow. You can target enemies even when they are not locked on.

I am left with 1-3 and 1-4 now. Currently levelling up my character so that I can wear the Gloom Armor, Purple Flame Shield and yet roll comfortably at the same time. Also have 3 sidequests to do (2 Black World Tendency events).

oramay

08-Nov-2009, 01:49

no not only in doorways. in 1-2, you cross the first bridge span with the dragon flying over and breathing fire. when you get to the tower and go up the stairs you will encounter a dude with a spear on the sthe stairwell. You can clearly see him and he will be in lock on range, but you cannot lock on to him until he starts moving towards you.

The lock on is unpredictable. I know it's a combination of distance, view and some other factor(s). This game would be outstanding if it wasnt for the annoying lock on issues. As it is, its still pretty good though :smile:

I think the 1-2 soldier is a glitch. I've locked onto many enemies on stairs throughout the game and he is the only one I can remember having problems with.

The lock on seems to depend on potential obstacle between my character and the enemies. If it's completely open, I can lock on without looking at that enemy, sometimes leading to camera swing. If the game detects there may be obstacle in between, I'd need to have most of that enemy in view of my camera to lock on. Even my character on screen can block my view of an enemy and make the game unwilling to lock on. These are the assumptions that served me well anyway. I also have my mind ready to lock off and run away whenever I sense trouble. :wink:

I didn't expect people to have many problems with the lock toggle in this game as I felt it's fine. It may be a result of different fighting styles. There are occasions where I do get into trouble because of camera swing, but I doubt it happened more than 10 times in my playthrough. Anticipating how the lock may work and killing a lot of enemies with a bow from distance probably helped me.

specwarGP2

08-Nov-2009, 04:07

I think the 1-2 soldier is a glitch. I've locked onto many enemies on stairs throughout the game and he is the only one I can remember having problems with.

It's not a glitch. the lock on does not function intuitively. try playing as a magic user and you'll see what I mean. Here's another example. 4- 2 when you kill the first reaper and head down the cliff ledges. I'll kill one of the gold terminators then the lock on will - instead of locking onto the other terminator which is like 10 ft away from me - lock onto the manta ray hundreds of feet behind me, causing me to fall down to my death! WTF!!! :cry:

patsu

08-Nov-2009, 06:22

When that happes, it's usually because the mantra ray is nearer to you or it's directly in your line of sight. It can be hard to judge distance without any frame of reference for the flying monster. The mantra ray could be (is !) bigger than the golden skelly. If you have one fall on you just before it dies, you'd know they are not small.

I love fighting with the "baby" mantra rays in 4-4.

szymku

08-Nov-2009, 13:32

I "love" when invading black phantoms are stabbing me in the back while I'm fighiting other enemies... If they are afraid of fighting proper duel, why they invade??

Carl B

08-Nov-2009, 14:44

szymku

08-Nov-2009, 16:52

DS is simply extraordinary... I'm on 82 soul level and 100 hours into the game so one can assume that I'm simply struggling... But those past hours were pure fun, despite of constant dying, loosing souls and searching for a proper tactics for each bossfight which is quite difficult....
I,m yet to play Dragon Age and I hope I'll enjoy it... cool story, cool heroes in fancy outfits, colorful world But after reading several reviews and having played (and finished) Baldur Gate and Neverwinter Nights I know that this experience won't be as special and deep as DS.

patsu

08-Nov-2009, 23:51

You can fight melee effectively in this game without lock-on at all; you just have to get used to it. I do it all the time when I can't afford the drama of having the camera whipped around in areas I know are prone to that. In some fights I just prefer being able to run and dash around anyway. I have become extremely good at locking on and breaking lock as well - speed in that action will give you a lot more flexibility. I'm a magic user primarily as well specwar and the cloud ray's in 4-2... yeah. My advice is to get closer to the goldies, lock-on, and then start walking backwards. That's how I handle it. By the way I had a lot of issues in that same location... some class types are just better suited for different areas I think, and for magic guys walking around that ledge with the cloud ray's sniping at you just isn't our cup of tea.

I tried melee'ing Golden Skeletons and Black Phantoms around that corner too; fell to death twice. It's simply not a good place to raise hell regardless of character class. :(

In the end, the simplest and safest method worked repeatedly. It's the one you suggested. Lure them out using your own body. While you walk backwards, you may hit them with Soul Arrows, regular arrows, etc slowly. Soul Remains should work just as well to lure them out of the corner.

@szymku: As soon as a black phantom invades, you need to stop what you're doing, get to as 'clear' a location as possible, or an area you are comfortable with, and prepare for combat. I was walking around with 120K souls once when a black phantom got me from behind (souls I never recovered). I don't blame him - the entire level was clear and it was my fault for not realizing he would be so close at hand. I was in the tunnels of 2-2 and I was just too laid back about it when the message flashed. Normally I am a black phantom slayer extraordinaire, but because most of my invasions have taken place near the start of levels, I guess I just thought they normally appear near the start. Not so obviously - they appear near wherever you are.

They should spawn from Archstone I think. At least those I fought came from there. Sometimes, I had to wait a while before they found me.

Also I agree with your statement above that you can fight without lock-on. In fact, when I'm using my Dragon Sword, enemies behind me can get hurt too. The swing is wider (side to back). I have some trouble in narrow corridors though, but not too bad.

I also experimented with BP duel location. I tried awkward places that are dangerous for both of us (e.g., the 4-1 cliff side), as well as wide open plain. I much prefer the latter, especially those with long windy road to me. I could arrow them as they ran towards me.

By the way I'm playing Dragon Age: Origins now. ~9 hours in, not a bad game. But it doesn't 'impress' me like Demon's Souls does... I think DS is the more thrilling experience for sure. But it is of course a different sub-genre as well. I'll have more thoughts on Dragon Age as I go through,

Let me know how it goes. I probably can't get another long game until my workload dies down though.

EDIT: For new players: ALWAYS wear the thief ring, unless you are out looking for fights.

jonabbey

09-Nov-2009, 03:28

Wow, this game.. it has absolutely consumed our PS3.

Other games that I bought over the last 2 months that have been completely neglected:

Brutal Legend (never even got in the machine)
Uncharted 2 (played through Chapter 7)
Borderlands (never even got in the machine)
Ratchet & Clank (played about an hour, my wife a few times that before she got into DS)
Katamari Forever (never even got in the machine)
Batman: AA (I was about 1/3rd through, no more playing since)

It's the all Demon's Souls machine, all the time, now.

Neither my wife nor I are yet very far into it, though.. we've each killed just two bosses.

patsu

09-Nov-2009, 06:08

Wow, your wife plays too. Lucky you ! :)

Demon's Souls should be a fun game to talk about.

2real4tv

09-Nov-2009, 07:38

After dieing an n-tuples of times I finally slayed my first demon...very satisfying. I still don't understand the online component though how do I play with someone else?

Carl B

09-Nov-2009, 13:33

Go visit the Monumental in the Nexus, followed by the Maiden again, and you'll have the components for the standard co-op play given to you. Essentially, use the blue eye stone while a phantom to offer assistance to other living players, or summon other phantom players from their soul signs if your character is living.

@Jonabbey: Definitely this game is going to be the one that defined my console experience for the year - it really is incredibly awesome.

2real4tv

09-Nov-2009, 18:38

I was somewhere in Nexus where they display the best players did not realize how much variety their is for characters. Some looked really awesome, my son and I are alternate turns he started as a Temple Knight me a Barbarian.

patsu

09-Nov-2009, 18:43

The Pantheon ? Yeah, was up there once. I pitied the monsters. The top 5 players' stats and equipments were crazy.

In DS2, I hope they give us the ability to spectate in addition to the existing Blue and Black Phantom mechanisms.

Some of the players may be weirder than the Boletarian demons:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=18416625&postcount=21487

i had the strangest PvP moment so far. absolutely bizarre lol.

i invaded in 4-2, and couldnt find the host anywhere, until i went down to where Saint Urbain is... well, the guy/girl (character was female) was there standing beside a dead NPC body laying in a puddle, with items dropped around the body like gifts or something... and the guy was continually bowing in front of the body and items. like a ritual or something lol.

he/she didnt pay any attention to me, just kept bowing to the body, even as i walked right next to him/her. so of course... i dropped a few items as gifts for the deceased NPC fella too, and started bowing. then i got punched by the host for some reason (made me laugh). i removed my weapons and punched the host back. then we continued bowing until i got really, really sick of it and equipped all my weapons back, and started taunting him, acting like i want to fight.

then i just got my ass beat and the other player went back to his/her ritual :(

ShadowWolf64

09-Nov-2009, 18:56

Damn..this is another game I have to get for christmas as I've been reading alot of positive impressions...Glad you guys are thoroughly enjoying the game....

patsu

09-Nov-2009, 19:43

I'm left with 1-3 and 1-4 now. Finishing up some of the sidequests, and preparing for the final fight. I know 1-3 is a popular place for PvP.

Here's another funny PvP one:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=18418912&postcount=21532

Here's my amusing PVP story from yesterday:

So I invade some guy as usual in 1-3. Very quickly I get a message from him saying "Please leave". I asked why, and he said because he's just trying to get through the game, and doesnt want to lose souls.
I'm not trying to grief anyone, just trying to have some fun PVP sessions, so I ask him if he wants help to clear the level. He says yeah. So I'm killing everything in his path, all the while thinking how much this would ruin the game for me if someone did this for me. Anyway I get to the final 3 enemies of the level, and then I'm like "man, I gotta let him do *something* for himself". So I stand back to let him fight these guys. He lures one out with a bow, and then is immediately killed..

Anyway, a little while later, I invade some other guy in 1-3. I can't seem to find him at first, so then I figure he's in the area where you rescue Yuria . I find him there with his character tucked right up against two walls in a passage, facing the corner. He doesn't move at all as I approach, so I figure the poor guy is taking a leak or something. So for the lulz, I put my own character directly behind his, also facing the corner, and don't move. I'm imagining the guy's reaction when he comes back from his leak and sees a black phantom right behind him. So eventually the guy comes back, his character turns around, and he actually bows. Then I whack him once with my Hammer so he knows that playtime is over, and then I run to the main area of the level. To my surprise the guy comes with me, and then beckons me to follow him. I'm like.. huh? so I start following him to where there are some enemies, and he's not paying attention to me at all. I'm like, wtf, do you absolutely want to die? After a bit of this I get impatient and backstab him with a Dragon Bone Smasher for a 1 hit kill.

A little while later I get a message from the first guy, who I had helped, saying "you ass". I'm like, wtf, I helped you, and then you died to an enemy, that's not my fault. And then he's like, no you just backstabbed me with a Dragon Bone Smasher! They were the same guy, and I had no idea! So that's why he thought I was still friendly in the second game..

Carl B

09-Nov-2009, 20:12

LOL!

upnorthsox

09-Nov-2009, 21:03

vazel

10-Nov-2009, 08:46

Arwin

10-Nov-2009, 11:40

I don't know, I think this game has probably been better received than expected. I could definitely see a sequel happening.

vazel

10-Nov-2009, 12:24

They did have to do reprints in Japan and US but the game got low print runs in both regions so that doesn't mean much.

I think the game sold to their expectations(which considering the low print runs were low) but I don't think they're going to do a sequel. This is a one time thing with small profit margins to cater to the King's Field niche. I'm glad Sony did this it's not the first time they've green lighted a game they knew wasn't going to sell well. <3 Sony.

obonicus

10-Nov-2009, 12:29

Sony had very little faith in this game, though -- it managed to claw its way up to 130k in Japan despite being vastly undershipped. Which was essentially sending it to die, considering Japan's used market. And then they had so little faith they decided to skip over it completely and bring WKC over.

Personally, I think this will do better than WKC would in NA. And even if it sells only a few hundred thousand total it'd still put this as one of the best-selling RPGs of the generation, especially impressive for new IP. And it hasn't even reached Europe (wonder if SCEE will change its mind).

vazel

10-Nov-2009, 12:33

I didn't know it had sold that much in Japan. Source? It's initial shipping in Japan was around 40k. It would be amazing if it managed to sell 130k over there. If it does 200-250k worldwide I could see a sequel happening. Although those kind of sales wasn't enough to keep Valkyria Chronicles on consoles so who knows.

WKC is going to sell better than DS everywhere. You're losing sight of the big picture with today's gaming market. WKC has bigger production values and is easier. And DS isn't entirely out of nowhere it's a spiritual successor to King's Field. Like what Perfect Dark was to Goldeneye.

obonicus

10-Nov-2009, 13:03

Source is garaph, which compiles data from Famitsu:
http://garaph.info/softwareindividual.php//gid/3425

The 2009-6-22 I believe is the data obtained after the top-500 list was published.

On WKC, WKC also seems to be pretty bad -- it's probably going to get savaged by the press, there won't be the word-of-mouth build-up DS got. It did far better than Demon's Souls in Japan but over here both are new-IP RPGs. SCEA will really need to step up their marketing to reach that broader fanbase, while Atlus had a captive audience to begin with. DS is also an action-RPG, you're in full control of your character, so there's not the added level of abstraction that might turn a more mainstream audience away from a turn-based game. I'm not 100% certain of DS outselling WKC, not until I see DS sales numbers. If it's around 200k, though, I think it's pretty likely that it'd outsell WKC's release in the US. If it's around 100k it could go either way.

patsu

10-Nov-2009, 15:59

Sony need to note this:

HM: I’m just an employee of the development company, so I can’t directly answer whether there’ll be a sequel to Demon’s Souls. With that said, my personal opinion is that we learned a lot during the development of Demon’s Souls, and there were a lot of things that we couldn’t do the first time, so I’d welcome the chance to create an even better game in the same style if the opportunity arises.

They have been rather brave in green-lighting "cold" projects. Now that Sony hit a sweet spot. they should dig deeper to expand the base.

I am also thinking whether it's possible to co-op this game with a casual/non-gamer using the new controller. It would allow me to play with my family. Afterall, we could complete a difficult LBP level when it's interesting enough to hold our attention. That way I don't have to find excuses to come back to the office and play Demon's Souls :twisted:

corduroygt

10-Nov-2009, 18:58

corduroygt

10-Nov-2009, 19:03

From a technical standpoint, this game is not impressive at all. The graphics are bland, there is no AA, and the framerate absolutely chugs in some areas. I guess this is expected given the low budget.

patsu

10-Nov-2009, 19:19

I have been playing it a little bit, up to soul level 25 or so. I kept playing my royalty character, got used to the lock on, however I still feel like I suck at melee, I feel like using the shield is "bad" and I should try to evade all attacks but sometimes you just can't, or run out of skill.

You mean run out of stamina... ?

The problem is some enemies are always powerful or quick enough to break your guard, or bypass your shield. That's why some players build their characters around the concept of a paper tank. They have stupendous attack power, but couldn't take a single hit.

I don't have the patience and timing skills to do that. So I invest in a good shield and circle or move backwards (with lock-on) to keep my distance. If the enemy is too quick, I will roll frequently. The best way is to roll "forward" to pre-empt the AI, or to catch it at the end of an attack (i.e., roll behind the monster to backstab). You are invincible when rolling. But if you're blocked by a wall or the enemy, the rolling is partial/ineffective.

There is a good shield in 4-1. It regens your health. If you have the courage to face a skeleton warrior, I highly recommend you try to level up there. You may want to take on the skeletons one at a time though.

Also, the 1-2 boss was ridicilously easy and cheap, then I played 2-1 and died when some glowing critters ambushed me, that was a cheap death.
This is what this game is, cheap. You die cheaply and you kill cheaply.

Glowing critters... you mean the fire lizard or the floating fireball ?

I certainly killed many bosses cheaply :)
I always move with my shield up. That way when I'm caught by surprise, I won't die.

EDIT:
From a technical standpoint, this game is not impressive at all. The graphics are bland, there is no AA, and the framerate absolutely chugs in some areas. I guess this is expected given the low budget.

The framerate does chug at times. I like the art direction though. Very atmospheric too, especially the Mindflayer level.

Also, did you get the Thief Ring in 1-1 ? Use it !

specwarGP2

10-Nov-2009, 19:20

LOL he thinks there's gonna be a sequel. A hardcore RPG without any animu aspects to attract the usual Atlus niche. I'm just happy we got a game like this in today's easier game development ways. Just beat the first boss and am loving it. I can already tell it's going to be second only to Vagrant Story in my favorite RPGs ever.

I'm certain there will be a sequel. Sony may not have had faith in Demon's Souls originally, but it's turned out to be a sleeper hit and Sony gave it a lot of exposure by giving it a spot for a while in the top row of the What's New section. Of all the large scale games I've seen promoted in the What's New section, only Uncharted 2 has been there longer.

corduroygt

10-Nov-2009, 20:00

You mean run out of stamina... ?
No I get hit when trying to avoid them in close combat, or when I do the roll towards them to attack them from behind, about half the time I fail and get hit :(

Got a real nice sword in 4-1, thanks to betan's tip, but I haven't gone far enough for the shield, the enemies were just too fast and too powerful for me, I stopped after seeing the tutorial boss there. I always wear the thief ring, otherwise I cannot kill the red eyed versions of guards, I spam soul arrow, run away out of sight, and repeat 10 times. This works well for the red eyed guard in 1-1 as well. I also got the purple flame shield for now.

It was the fire lizards that killed me in 2-1, when 3 dropped from a ceiling and blocked me from both sides so I couldnt run away.

patsu

10-Nov-2009, 20:06

I see that you're fighting the skeleton warriors. ^_^

You can try lock-on, move backwards and circle the rolling skeletons. Takes a little practice. When they are close to you, they would stand up to strike you. At that moment, you could circle behind them (No need to roll). If you roll, they may also start rolling again. Then hilarity may ensue. 8^P

I always soul arrow fire lizards. You're in that room with lot's of fire lizards when you died ?

EDIT: Nowadays because I have much longer health bar and cooler weapon ^_^, I could go in anytime and one-hit the skeletons. They are still nasty enough to take out most of my health if I am not careful though. Cannot let my eyes off the enemies.

specwarGP2

10-Nov-2009, 20:18

I prefer to hit them as they start rolling towards you. Dragon claymore +2 (or was it +3?) is a one hit kill for the regular terminators in NG. With a claymore you have a pretty good reach so if you time it right they never get close enough to hit you.

btw, dragon weps are probably the best for NG. Dragon claymore +5 does almost 400 damage and you can get that relatively early in the game by farming ores.

patsu

10-Nov-2009, 21:32

Hey, I wanted to build a Dragon Claymore + 5 the other day. My Dragon Sword + 4 is ok, but deals short of 200 damages. I am trying out Demonbrandt now. It delivers 480-490 damages, but the swing is too wide/far. Great for open area but could get myself killed in narrow corridors.

Yemeth

10-Nov-2009, 21:43

I finished the game yesterday at soul level 90 (morning at about 3 AM), I had a fantastic streak killing 4 demons in a row without dying (+one invading black phantom who was poisoning/plaguing me in 5-2, good luck with that my friend ;-) ).

Just fantastic.

As I begun new game plus I started to read the guide and I must say I missed maany things (even one NPC who teaches you spells :oops: )... I even managed to finish the game without getting any non-demon trophy (hoped I will find at least all the rings, but seems I did not; I was playing an "good knight" in character so I never invaded any world etc., this is probably a additional reason I missed quite a few items and NPCs too).

Also, I have many demon souls unused, I was always like, lets wait to decide what I will choose (spell or miracle etc.) until I have problems with some monster...

My feelings about the game, after playing it through:

+perfect art design and feeling 5-x spoiler: After I killed Garl Vinland, the maiden killed herself with a accusing sentence! Fantastic!
+finally a game which does not assume that I am an idiot
+great controls and ways to fight/make your char
+underrated story, it is good you just need to work for it and fill out the blanks by yourself
+the acting was criticized, IMO, it is good, I like the non-overacting voiceovers

-so,so engine et al, in my opinion average
-bad camera/lock on problems
-stupid "I cannot see where I jump down to" moments
-IMO, the difficulty level is not fine tuned at all; I had more problems with certain "normal mobs" then with some big demons; although the summoned players of the monk killed me about 10 times ;) , I was cursing like mad- one killed me with some explosion like spell in one shot (was in soul form)
-too many guessing; many basic things are not explained enough
-why not learn from the big studios like Naughty Dog, if you have good CG sequences, let us replay them after we saw it in game
-no behind the scenes, I want to learn more about the designers, programmers and producers of such an unusual (and great) project

Have fun and good luck!

specwarGP2

10-Nov-2009, 21:48

Hey, I want to build a Dragon Claymore + 5 the other day. My Dragon Sword + 4 is ok, but deals short of 200 damages. I am trying out Demonbrandt now. It delivers 480-490 damages, but the swing is too wide/far. Great for open area but could get myself killed in narrow corridors.

How do you get 480-90 damage? I thought Demonbrandt has no stat modifers except for white character tendency. I have white character tendency and it still deals considerably less damage than a Dragon Claymore +4 (NG).

patsu

10-Nov-2009, 22:00

I have no idea. I used it to farm 4-* last night. Will double check. Demonbrandt should be 130 + 110 according to the guidebook but the damage I saw was greater than 400 sometimes.

Yemeth

10-Nov-2009, 22:19

How do you get 480-90 damage? I thought Demonbrandt has no stat modifers except for white character tendency. I have white character tendency and it still deals considerably less damage than a Dragon Claymore +4 (NG).

I have 480:

Physical: 130 +130
Magical: 110 +110

specwarGP2

10-Nov-2009, 22:40

I have 480:

Physical: 130 +130
Magical: 110 +110

What is your character tendency? Are you playing NG or NG+?

patsu

10-Nov-2009, 22:42

Yemeth, is that two handed or regular damage ?

Also specwarGP2, since you completed NG, is Northern Regalia worth it ? I think that's the best sword in the game. I heard Meat Cleaver is strong but too slow.

I tried Dragon Bone Smasher. All the regular enemies literally dove head first into the ground when I hit them. The upgraded DBS + 5 has 280 basic damage. Too bad it requires strength 30 and is super heavy. I'm still trying to up my endurance to roll with it freely (I have strength at 30 now).

For some reason, Makoto didn't click with me although it probably is the most damaging sword.

EDIT:
specwarGP2, my character tendency is pure white.

specwarGP2

10-Nov-2009, 22:56

Patsu - I did finish the game but like an idiot I forgot to pick up soulbrandt on my way out :oops:

How did you get pure white tendency? I never killed any NPCs except for Yurt.

patsu

10-Nov-2009, 23:07

Check the archstone map. The statue in the middle is your character tendency. Mine is bright and white, so I just assume it's pure white.

The wiki says:

Killing invading or named Black Phantoms moves your character towards White, and killing harmless NPCs/vendors or being a BP invader moves you towards Black.

I have killed over 15 human Black Phantoms (and fell off cliffs 3 times). So I should be bleachy white. :-P
Old King Doran is not counted as an NPC. I killed him and nothing happened to my character tendency.
I think Yurt should be like a black tendency character, so it's ok to kill him too.

EDIT:
Ha ha, you forgot to pull out Soulbrandt...
I think you can make Northern Regalia from either Soulbrandt or Demonbrandt.

Yemeth

10-Nov-2009, 23:17

What is your character tendency? Are you playing NG or NG+?

NG+, but it was way over 400 in the first playthrough too. I wrote those numbers off from the weapon stats screen...

I just never used it (only on one chap in 1-4 :) ) as I have below 50% equip weight with Crescent Falcion Scimitar + Gloom Armor + HP regen shield+Talisman of God. My character tendency is, I think, as pure as it gets even though I died in NG+.

BTW, got 618 (strong one handed hit) while hitting the enemies in 2-1. As I do not see that any stat is affecting it, I assume that your soul tendency is not as white as ours ;) .

Did you kill any invading black phantoms (I saw that a invading BP kill can make your char glow even whiter), demons etc.?

The whole WT and CT is driving me mad it is too unclear, I have missed many things because I gave up trying to understand it by myself and feared of reading too much because of spoilers. But now I will read everything I can...

BTW, never found that Makoto nor Dragon Bone Smasher too, at least BP Satsuki dropped the 4th useless (with my playstyle that is) Hiltless after fighting him for the 5th time (and literary sweating while fighting him) on Halloween... :)

BTW 2, patsu I glanced the whole time until I finished DS if you will maybe play it at the same time (so we can team up/trade whatever), but it was always offline or life with playstation (don't remember) :) .

patsu

10-Nov-2009, 23:27

I am currently being chased by a lot of people thanks to Demon's Souls. Also missed my kid's school functions. :twisted: I feel sleepy too !

I play offline these few days to try to clear out some WT events. I am sure I will die a lot when facing that Blue Dragon in 1-3 (1-4 ?).

I will stablize my life again once I have the False King's head. He's like a big customer account or a major SVN check-in now. I need to complete it. :no:

Makoto is in 4-2 (where Patches was first found). You need Pure White world tendency to grab it from the cave below (on the ground). If the WT is not Pure White, the sword will remain unreachable on top of the "spike".

DBS is in the 2-4 boss fight. You need Pure White WT also. Take a left immediately when you enter the Dragon God arena. If the WT's not Pure White, the DBS sword will be blocked by obstacles.

I'd suggest after killing the big bosses and may be some invading BPs, check the archstone map. I got Pure White WT that way.

If not Demonbrandt, what do you use in a narrow corridor ?

EDIT: If I'm in "Life with Playstation", that means I'm working. :)

Carl B

11-Nov-2009, 00:42

Yemeth I like your style - props and a shout out to the non-guide players! :) Sounds like you had a similar run of 'non' finds as I did, even though I daresay you may have found more of them than me... who knows. I ended the game with a ton of unused demon souls as well though. That is, as always, the golden rule of playing without referencing external materials: when you have something at all resembling cool, save it until near the end of the game when you'll be able to make your best informed decision!

specwarGP2

11-Nov-2009, 01:26

Patsu, Yemeth,

I haven't encountered a single human BP yet, let alone killed one. I have been playing quite a bit of the game offline though to try and get all the black and white world tendency events to occur. I've got most of them...

As for WT events... its easier to get the world to pure white by killing bosses then shift it back to black than the other way around. The key to not screwing up white tendency is to immediately go back to the nexus and kill yourself when you get your body back

PARANOiA

11-Nov-2009, 02:34

Quick question - how I do I play offline? I can't find the menu option... do I need to fully sign out of PSN?

obonicus

11-Nov-2009, 02:40

I think so.

betan

11-Nov-2009, 05:11

Select > Write Message > Other > Now I've done it :)

Quick question - how I do I play offline? I can't find the menu option... do I need to fully sign out of PSN?

Yes.
Online is pretty great in this game though. I love reading/writing messages, seeing other ghosts fighting around you and blue phantoms who are very helpful.

If black phantoms are your concern, I think you can log out of PSN when someone arrives (haven't tried that though) and reload the game. The game has excellent checkpointing even though it hides it very well.

I did scripted NAT server instead (pvp session ends, PSN stays) when I carry too many souls (sorry invaders, I have no interest of loosing 200K souls of mine because I'm on NG+ 1-1 )

PARANOiA

11-Nov-2009, 05:52

OK - would be nice if I could use PSN for friend messages, etc, without having to risk getting killed in an already harrowing game. Hopefully a patch, or at least something to add to the "things to improve" list for the sequel.

vazel

11-Nov-2009, 06:17

Does anyone know for sure if the white ghosts of other players are real time or replays?

szymku

11-Nov-2009, 14:11

I cant open Iron Ring Keys gate in 1.3. I, ve got keys and minister hat.... I don't know is it because of the world tendency or rather because of already kiling penetrator

patsu

11-Nov-2009, 16:41

I can't remember clearly anymore. You need Bloody Iron Key to save Yuria, or just a regular Iron Key ?

Does anyone know for sure if the white ghosts of other players are real time or replays?

I haven't seen an official response. This game is seriously lacking interviews. The GI interview is good, but I wish there're more. :)
The white ghosts delivered their fair share of scares in my playthrough. Sometimes I thought something lunged at me.

OK - would be nice if I could use PSN for friend messages, etc, without having to risk getting killed in an already harrowing game. Hopefully a patch, or at least something to add to the "things to improve" list for the sequel.

I *think* you can learn the BANISH spell/miracle to send invading BPs back to their worlds. Haven't tried it myself though. That way you get the full online experience, including the anxiety of getting invaded. Just not the actual engagement :-P

I did scripted NAT server instead (pvp session ends, PSN stays) when I carry too many souls (sorry invaders, I have no interest of loosing 200K souls of mine because I'm on NG+ 1-1 )

Why didn't I think of that ? It's almost like glitching Agent Smith in Matrix.

Patsu, Yemeth,

I haven't encountered a single human BP yet, let alone killed one. I have been playing quite a bit of the game offline though to try and get all the black and white world tendency events to occur. I've got most of them...

That's what I'm doing now. But you should try PvP at least once. It's a different experience altogether.

szymku

11-Nov-2009, 17:42

It turned out that I was trying to open wrong door - the bloody iron key one. Iron ring door are in the tower behind tower knight A.S. where two knights and three archers awaits

patsu

11-Nov-2009, 17:53

Yeah, the Bloody Iron Key is in 1-2. Need the regular Iron Key to access. At the place where you meet the 2 knights and 3 archers, there is a locked door on your left (facing the last knight). Unlock it and kill all the bad guys inside. One of them will drop the Bloody Iron Key.

specwarGP2

11-Nov-2009, 18:13

That's what I'm doing now. But you should try PvP at least once. It's a different experience altogether.

I was helping someone in 5-2 as a blue phantom and just by looking at the damage he did I knew I was considerably stronger than him ( I was lvl 106). Anyways we got the black phantom invading message and we both immediately stopped what we were doing and backed up towards each other to form a defensive formation. We waited for a bit in our defensive formation and the anticipation was quite unnerving for me since I've never had an invading bp encounter before. Unfortunately nothing ever materialized. I think the invader saw us and decided it was more trouble than we were worth.

patsu

11-Nov-2009, 23:22

Demon's Souls dynamic theme (on Japan PS Store I think):

pUXFMu111M0

Carl B

12-Nov-2009, 02:22

It turned out that I was trying to open wrong door - the bloody iron key one. Iron ring door are in the tower behind tower knight A.S. where two knights and three archers awaits

I've beat the game so I'm not riding it as hard anymore... but... spoiler tags! :razz:

There are a lot of people coming into the game now afterall!

patsu

12-Nov-2009, 06:05

... and the world has been mended. v_v

EDIT:
False King cheesed to death while patsu ate.

2real4tv

12-Nov-2009, 06:05

What did you guys start as because Iam getting my a** kicked. Started as a barbarian.

patsu

12-Nov-2009, 06:07

2real4tv

12-Nov-2009, 08:45

Ha ha, I knew you would come back after reading that you started as a Barbarian. It's one of the toughest classes (No armor and starting as level 7 or 9 ?).

The easiest class to start with is Royalty. Freebies include:
* MP regen ring
* Soul Arrow (One hit kill for most enemies in 1-1. Limited range but low MP cost)
* Starting soul level = 1. Therefore, you can level up quickly and assign stat points to customize your style early.

If you see the red-eyed knight wielding a lance/spear, avoid him. You don't need to fight him to progress. He's for an advanced side quest later. Fight the other knight and go through the fog door instead.

Yeah I ran into to the red knight...did not last long either...lol. Iam currently trying to beat the giant Knight. I have the Brushwood chest armor and Brushwood helmet but nothing on the feet(too heavy). Look kind of funny with huge armor and bare legs :lol:. My weapon is the Bastard sword dont have enough capacity for magic but I purchased the soul arrow but can't use it.

patsu

12-Nov-2009, 10:03

You need a catalyst (wood or silver) to cast magic. If I remember correctly, a wooden catalyst can be found at the top of the first bridge tower.

Am surprised you made it that far. Great work !

2real4tv

12-Nov-2009, 11:13

You need a catalyst (wood or silver) to cast magic. If I remember correctly, a wooden catalyst can be found at the top of the first bridge tower.

Am surprised you made it that far. Great work !

Ok so I have to have that equiqed to do magic? I have it already just did viewed what is was for :roll:. I will give it a try when I get home.

specwarGP2

12-Nov-2009, 14:45

Ha ha, I knew you would come back after reading that you started as a Barbarian. It's one of the toughest classes (No armor and starting as level 7 or 9 ?).

The easiest class to start with is Royalty. Freebies include:
* MP regen ring
* Soul Arrow (One hit kill for most enemies in 1-1. Limited range but low MP cost)
* Starting soul level = 1. Therefore, you can level up quickly and assign stat points to customize your style early.

meh. I think starting as royalty is good only if you intend to build a magic heavy character. Otherwise I think Knight is a better first time character to use. Your starting armor and weapon is pretty good and you have balanced stats across the board so you can focus on melee and some other skill since lvl 10 is still very early. At lvl 10 you have a decent amount of hp so you wont die as easy as a royal. Also if you want to cast magic, you will find a catalyst pretty early in the game.

patsu

12-Nov-2009, 16:49

Don't tempt me to start a new character. :-P

Whoever you choose, I highly recommend a Sticky Compound Long Bow + 5. Pick a regular bow up as early as possible.

Magic is very useful against bosses. Warding, Poison Cloud, Flame Toss, Soul Arrow/Ray, Anti-Magic, God's Wrath, FireStorm, etc. are really helpful.

EDIT: 2real4tv, you also need a Talisman to cast Miracles. They are a different branch of magic from Spells.

Yemeth

12-Nov-2009, 21:19

I am one of those people who likes to try around, in my first playthrough I spent a few hours with a temple knight and then wanted to try out a few other chars... In the end I deleted all except my knight :) . When I find more time I want to play an evil char who will play in pure black and invade as much as possible :twisted: .

IMO, I think that the starting character (I like the term origin even more) is not such an big issue as you can upgrade it depending on your playstyle.

The starter item usefulness depends, IMO, mostly on the playstyle of the player, not on the items as such.

Anyway, sparkly-twinkly to all of you :) .

szymku

12-Nov-2009, 22:07

Finally beatOld Monk (online) after several attempts. So far the most difficult opponent - some of the BP I faced knocked me out in one or two hits. The one I beat was relatively easy. Now only False king left, after beating him I'll try New Game plus

betan

12-Nov-2009, 22:18

"An NPC summoning a PC as boss" has to be one of the most awesome stuff I have seen in a video game.

patsu

13-Nov-2009, 03:31

http://atlus.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5072

Easy, step-by-step instructions are now available on the Demon's Souls website:

http://www.demons-souls.com/stratguide

Note: Submissions that do not adhere to the provided instructions will not be processed.

EDIT:
Anyway, sparkly-twinkly to all of you :) .

You know... the first time I heard that phrase, I jumped down the cliff with adrenaline rushing, thinking that a demon was behind or above me. XD

patsu

13-Nov-2009, 08:43

meh. I think starting as royalty is good only if you intend to build a magic heavy character. Otherwise I think Knight is a better first time character to use. Your starting armor and weapon is pretty good and you have balanced stats across the board so you can focus on melee and some other skill since lvl 10 is still very early. At lvl 10 you have a decent amount of hp so you wont die as easy as a royal. Also if you want to cast magic, you will find a catalyst pretty early in the game.

Curiosity had the better of me.

I started NG+ instead of playing R&C. Was able to complete 1-1, 1-2, Miralda sidequest, and 2-1 rather quickly. Only died once. I'm trying to do a speed run just to see how far I can go. Trying to build a Northern Regalia asap.

I am level 120+ now (low 120s).

At later levels, it doesn't matter which class we started as anymore. I think once the player gets used to the game, playing knights (essentially, melee) can be more fun. Ranged attack and magic help to speed up the game where appropriate.

inefficient

17-Nov-2009, 13:21

This is a contender for my game of the year for sure. (Even in the same year that had so many games I loved like Uncharted2, Batman, Infamous, KZ2, RE5 etc)

Haven't finished it yet but I've played a good amount. I'm at Soul level 40 right now. Just beat the Dragon God.

I really like the atmosphere, the sense of being terrified, but also the sensation of feeling like a bad ass when you beat some hard monster to the ground. Great risk / reward system. I like the MP aspects even just the leaving of notes and stuff. Even with how dangerous much of the world is, it is paced fairly well and I never feel I am rushed into a battle.

I think the boss battles could have been better. They are not terrible or anything by game standards. But they are not on the level of Monster Hunter or some thing like that. With almost all of the boss monsters so far there is some really cheap solution to killing them usually involving ranged attacks and exploiting the relatively poor AI. The couple fights where you have to actually go toe to toe with something really really dangerous are the ones I love the most.

Audio is terrific. Especially with the ambiance. My favorite is the Tower level. The sound in that level makes it so scary! And whenever you hear "ding ding ding" you go into survival mode!

Graphics could be better but they get the job done. I think the Boss creatures models and animations are not up to par with something like a Monster Hunter game. I think they could have used more behavior animations and idle animations. Not just their 4-5 attack animations.

But still it is very addicting. I haven't even bothered finishing the MW2 story line because DS has totally consumed my interest for the moment. It's like one of those rare games you keep on thinking about even when you are not playing it. I think because the fear of dying is so high, it heightens my desire to get better at the game and continually improve my character. I think that is why it is so addicting.

patsu

17-Nov-2009, 17:56

I think the boss battles could have been better. They are not terrible or anything by game standards. But they are not on the level of Monster Hunter or some thing like that. With almost all of the boss monsters so far there is some really cheap solution to killing them usually involving ranged attacks and exploiting the relatively poor AI. The couple fights where you have to actually go toe to toe with something really really dangerous are the ones I love the most.

Yap ! That's how I made it in my first playthrough. In my second playthrough, I started to engage some of the bosses directly. There is one I will avoid extended confrontation though :).

Since you completed World 2, did you melee the 2-3 boss ?

After reading your post, I'm curious about Monster Hunter now.

Audio is terrific. Especially with the ambiance. My favorite is the Tower level. The sound in that level makes it so scary! And whenever you hear "ding ding ding" you go into survival mode!

Heh heh, that's one of my favorite levels in DS. I completed 3-1 yesterday again. Didn't die in my first playthrough, but I died once in my second. Should never have let my guard down in this game. Got killed by small guys. >_<

Nearly fell through holes a couple of times too. My heart nearly stopped when my character lingered at the edge.

specwarGP2

17-Nov-2009, 20:11

I just started a new character to play NG even though I had a fairly strong character in NG+. Using a temple knight and the halberd he starts with is pretty powerful. Since I'm quite familiar with the game I'm powering through it at a fast pace and my goal is to get all of the PB and PW WT events in my first playthrough. So far the only PWWT tendency event that I haven't completed is in world 5.

This game is truly addicting.

2real4tv

18-Nov-2009, 05:47

Starting to get in a stride with my Barbarian. Defeated the Giant Knight and the Spider boss today.

patsu

18-Nov-2009, 17:40

Ha ha, I saw your posts on GAF. Great to see you made through the Tower Knight. Did you melee him ?

I cleared World 3 in my NG+ last night. Screwed up the pure white world tendency because I died once. I want to get Rydell's key :(

specwarGP2

19-Nov-2009, 02:14

patsu

19-Nov-2009, 03:39

Oh sh*t, that's sad. 8^(

I try to stay away from NPCs in general. Sometimes I roll in the Nexus to try out my gears. One time, I rolled into the BlackSmith. He basically said, "You're lucky it was me. If it were the other crazy [bumps ?], you'd be in deep trouble". ^_^

inefficient

19-Nov-2009, 04:33

I'm so annoyed with myself. I accidentally used rage of god in the nexus and got stockpile thomas mad at me and was forced kill him. So basically all the time I spent on NG leveling up my temple knight to lvl 70 just went to waste since I cant finish the game without the locker :cry:

Wow that sucks. And unfortunately since they locked the save game there is no easy way to backup/restore it.

I've accidentally attacked several NPCs, but they just complained about it. It never got to the point where they were fighting back. Probably I will just hit the reset switch on my machine to avoid the game saving that condition.

After reading your post, I'm curious about Monster Hunter now.

You should give MH3 a try (assuming you have a Wii) once it comes out in English. If you like DS you might like it. It shares similar ideas with regard to game design. It seems pretty clear to me that some of DS design was influenced by MH.

In both DS and MH your weapons/equip/stats do matter, but not nearly as much as player skill and game experience. A newbie player with great gear in the game is still going to get killed quickly by even low level stuff. It's not like a JRPG where the outcome really just comes down the stats math.

In DS you get ingredients from random drops to upgrade weapons/armor. In MH you get ingredients from random drops to upgrade weapons/armor and forge new ones.

In DS you have 1 life per level. If you die you have to start from the beginning of the level.
MH you have 3 lives, on the third death you have to restart the mission from the beginning.

This idea is really not seen in western games anymore, except maybe in some MMOs. Most devs these days really want to pamper their players with generous save points and regenerating life bars etc. They are so afraid of "pissing" of the gamer, or more importantly, the "game reviewer". I know many people will say they don't want to go through "punishment" during their leisure time. But I feel you lose something lot by removing any real form of punishment.

I think even a Diablo2 style level of punishment (corpse run if you die) is frowned on by most western devs these days. But it is nice to see DS get received so well by gamers and reviewers. It says to me that at least some people are saying going back to this style of game play is refreshing. And people are realizing how much more rewarding victory can be when you feel you really earned it.

Something MH has that DS doesn't is "Time" pressure. in MH each hunt is on a timer. The timer could be anywhere from 15-50mins generally. In most of the early to mid missions it is pretty rare to run out of time. But in later missions, if you turtle too much or use cowardly poke and run style tactics you have the real risk of running out of time and failing the mission. Sometimes you are having this really epic hour long fight and you know you only have a few more mins on the clock, you have to make a decision between continuing to play carefully, or using a more aggressive risky strategy that are will do more damage to the monster but potentially get yourself killed. And that can really add to the tension.

I think DS could have benefited from this idea, at least during the boss fights. Because as it is right now, it is too attractive to find a nice sniping spot where they can't reach you and just pick their life bars away with arrows or other ranged attacks. Another idea is maybe they should just reduce the number of arrows you can carry to like 50. That way you would be forced to engage the monster in real combat as designed one way or another.

Another idea in MH that I hope they borrow for the next DS game is that in MH monsters have no life bars. Instead of life bars there are visual indicators to show what state they are at. Like you will start to see wounds/gashes and torn/smashed/cracked body parts indicating you have done extensive damage to them at that body part. Also when they are close to death every monster goes in to an injured state where their animations change a little. Some of them visibly start to limp when they move around etc. Also there are things like rage mode where a monster will temporarily go in to this state where they are very angry at you. And you have to be extra careful around them when they are that way. Also this purely from visual indicators or from the monsters animations that you recognize this. It's not shown on the HUD or as a life bar etc. For me just seeing a life bar pop up kind of takes me out of the game a little.

patsu

19-Nov-2009, 08:43

Then does MH have the reputation of being "difficult" ?
If not, why ?

Something MH has that DS doesn't is "Time" pressure. in MH each hunt is on a timer. The timer could be anywhere from 15-50mins generally. In most of the early to mid missions it is pretty rare to run out of time. But in later missions, if you turtle too much or use cowardly poke and run style tactics you have the real risk of running out of time and failing the mission. Sometimes you are having this really epic hour long fight and you know you only have a few more mins on the clock, you have to make a decision between continuing to play carefully, or using a more aggressive risky strategy that are will do more damage to the monster but potentially get yourself killed. And that can really add to the tension.

I think DS could have benefited from this idea, at least during the boss fights. Because as it is right now, it is too attractive to find a nice sniping spot where they can't reach you and just pick their life bars away with arrows or other ranged attacks. Another idea is maybe they should just reduce the number of arrows you can carry to like 50. That way you would be forced to engage the monster in real combat as designed one way or another.

Gah, this may make it too hard for me. ^_^

EDIT: Tried to buy the Demon's Souls dynamic theme but it wouldn't accept US credit cards. :mad:

patsu

19-Nov-2009, 20:23

One more question.

How does Monster Hunter work on the Wii ? Does it use the traditional game controller or the Wiimite ?

At first, I thought it would be a good idea to use Sony's new controller on Demon's Souls (e.g., the archery demo). However after playing the game, I am not so sure if it's possible to do a better motion sensing control scheme than what they have today.

obonicus

19-Nov-2009, 21:31

I believe it supports both, but not to scare away the usual fanbase of MH they even created a special classic controller that is a lot like the Dualshock in terms of shape, which they released in bundles with MH3 in Japan.

oramay

20-Nov-2009, 02:23

specwarGP2

20-Nov-2009, 03:40

This is where the game is most brutal IMO. It will be difficult but I hear that people still manage to finish the game and reach the next game cycle to get their stuff back. It may be too late for this question, but did you try turning off your PS3 after you used Rage of God (without touching in game menu)?

I didnt even think about that. I thought that if I left the nexus for a while that stockpile thomas would cool off and he would get over it but nooooo. when I came back he was still mad at me and assaulted me :cry:

I know I could finish the game even without the locker... but it would really screw things up for NG+ since I'm trying to get all the WT events in my first playthrough and upgrade my weps as much as possible for NG+

2real4tv

20-Nov-2009, 07:27

What is NG+

patsu

20-Nov-2009, 07:46

Second playthrough (New Game Plus)

deathindustrial

20-Nov-2009, 09:31

Traded it today for Uncharted 2. Too much frustration and not enough fun. That equation would have shifted over the other way if the controls and camera weren't so totally borked as the survival horror aspect was pretty cool.

Truth be said, I never understood the fascination with Castlevania SOTN either which in some ways seems to be this game's spiritual ancestor.

=)

Cheers

vazel

20-Nov-2009, 17:40

I wonder how many people are playing this game and realizing they aren't as hardcore as they thought... Must be a real wake-up to all the gamerscore kiddies. I think this and Mega Man 9 are the only hard games this gen. Not including fighting games like SFIV that take a lot of skill to master.

patsu

20-Nov-2009, 18:45

Hah ! And also surprised people who thought (still think) they are casuals, but fell in <3 with a hardcore RPG :-P

If the game shares some ideas with the Monster Hunter series, then I can understand why the combat mechanics is great. Afterall that game took over Japan.

2real4tv

23-Nov-2009, 03:38

Had some great games this weekend between helping, being helped and being invaded have all been exciting..you really feel like a warrior. I also feel more confident in my Barbarian character...magic helped out alot.

The hardest part in this game is trying to figure it out and Iam learning it is deeper than I thought something you can't see until you put a few hours into it and dying countless times:lol:

Scott_Arm

27-Nov-2009, 03:45

Finally got a chance to play it. Seems like a good game. Out of the gate, the game was a lot easier than I expected. I was able to rip through the first area, and beat the Phalanx boss without much difficulty. Probably only died three times (once to a dragon, once to a guy I never revisited). Then I went to the nexus, bought a couple stat upgrades, and headed off to continue from where I'd killed that boss. A little bit of frustration set in quickly.

I'll spoiler some of this stuff so as not to ruin anything for people that haven't played, but the basic gist of my gripe is that the game can get pretty boring if you die at the same spot. Trudging through mostly easy and mundane hallways over and over again is not my idea of fun. The game is fun when you're making progress, but if you're walking the same hallway, dispatching the same easy enemies over and over again, boredom can set in quickly.

The scenario for me, was this:
I fought some of those shield blobs after the Phalanx boss' chamber and made my way up to the stone path the top of the wall. The dragons swoop down and breath fire, so you have to time running across the wall so that you won't get killed. My character couldn't survive the fire. I'd clear the first rampart, make my way through the tunnel in the wall, fight the dogs, come up in the next rampart, finish off the remaining enemies and then prepare to avoid the next segment of dragon fire. Avoiding the dragon fire wasn't hard. I'd get to the other side, wipe out the crossbowman and then square off with the shielded knight. The first time I wasn't expecting him and he killed me. So I went back through the whole thing again, fought the knight and just as I delivered the killing blow, and second knight unexpectedly stabbed me in the back.

Ok, so I do the whole thing again, get to that fight and die because of a screw up with the targeting system, which I do not like. I'd prefer to have a button to hold. Still, human error. Once again, I go through the whole thing, only this time I get burnt up by the second dragon. While I was waiting for the dragon to swoop down, I was standing quite a distance back preparing for my run. For some reason the fire killed me anyway, wiping out all of those demon souls I had collected. That was the first death that really bothered me because I lost a lot of souls that I was carrying, and I hadn't even done anything wrong. Do I want to grind and get them all back? Not really. There's no fun in going through areas that are easy just to grind for "money."

Ok, so I put that aside and decide to go through it all again. This time, I die twice at the first dragon. What is going on? Suddenly my guy is getting tired half way to the rampart and the dragon is wiping me out. I figure some of the big stuff I'd picked up recently like shields, halberds etc are killing my endurance. So is there a way to drop that stuff? Not that I could figure out. I can't sell it and get money for it either, so why would i keep it? I went back to nexus, dropped of all my extra stuff with that storage guy, even though I'd rather not fill up my storage with junk, and tried again. Made it back to those two knights, screwed up the targeting again and died and decided to take a break.

My problem was that after repeating an area a few times, it stopped being fun. All of it, leading up to those two knights, was incredibly easy. Then I'd have thirty seconds of fun trying to fight them, and then back to five minutes of boring trying to get back to them.

I have mixed feelings about the design of the game. I appreciate that there are real penalties for death, but treading over the same ground, fighting the same enemies in the same spots etc wasn't that much fun. There is some better balance between save/load and retreading long segments of the game. I guess that segment I was playing wasn't that long, it just wasn't fun after the first few times. It becomes a chore to get back to where you were. I want to see new things, new places, not repeat the same set piece over and over. If every inch was a challenge for me, it would probably be better, because I'd have fun fighting my way through. Maybe my complaint is that it was too easy at times? I don't know.

I think I had to grind a little bit more and be more mindful to go back to nexus and spend my souls instead of carrying a huge sack of them with the potential of losing them all. I'm still considering picking it up, because it's a style of tactical sword fighting that is rare in games, and I enjoy it. The block, parry and attacks really work well. The only thing I don't like is the targeting. I died a number of times trying to back away from an enemy, thinking I had them targeted, only to turn my back on them and get killed.

patsu

27-Nov-2009, 04:41

That was why I killed the red dragon in the first segment right away. Never had to replay the bridge level at all.

Scott_Arm

27-Nov-2009, 05:32

That was why I killed the red dragon in the first segment right away. Never had to replay the bridge level at all.

I must have missed the place where you can fight him.

patsu

27-Nov-2009, 05:49

It's up to you. It's not a mini-boss, just a living environment hazard so to speak.

You can pick up a short bow at the top of the first bridge tower. You'll need at least a dexterity of 14, I think. You'll also need 100-200 arrows depending on your stats (About 20-30 minutes :(). Shoot from the top of the first tower.

If you are a magic user, you can also Soul Arrow the red dragon to death from the ground floor (Stand behind the barrel at the end of the bridge).

I invested points into my Magic stat, so I could Soul Arrow the dragon to death relatively quickly (15-20 minutes).

If you want a stronger bow (Compound Long Bow), you may want to visit 4-1 first. I think it needs a dex of 18.

specwarGP2

27-Nov-2009, 07:23

Ok so tonight is the first time I've actually played the game online for any significant amount of time. Despite the fact that I've never had any PvP experience before this, I think I did ok. I'm lvl 143 btw.

out of about 10 PvP duels so far, I've won 6, and out of those losses only one encounter I feel like I really got outclassed. That person sent me a msg afterwards saying "can you say noob." I sent him a msg back saying he's a tool and acting out online prolly because gets beat up at school - he didnt get a reply back :lol:

patsu

27-Nov-2009, 07:44

6 out of 10 is good. ^_^

What PvP weapons are you using ? I play it offline these days for WT quests.

specwarGP2

27-Nov-2009, 10:21

6 out of 10 is good. ^_^

What PvP weapons are you using ? I play it offline these days for WT quests.

I'm using a temple knight build and my weapon of choice is a +5 Blessed Mirdan Hammer. The important stats are 40 faith; 50 end (so I can wear full gloom armor w/ no penalty) 35 str; 32 dex. I currently deal out 396 dmg.

Its funny that all that all these "invaders" actually spent most of the match running away from me after I hit them with my hammer a couple times. One loss for me happened when an invader was running away for dear life and lucky for him he ran towards a bunch of skeletons which ended up killing me :lol:

My one loss where I had no chance of winning.. this guy (or chick) killed me in 3 hits before I could do anything. I think he was using north regalia... it seems extremely powerful :mad:

patsu

27-Nov-2009, 18:38

Wow, your character is stronger than mine. I am collecting Faintstones to build a blessed weapon too. I heard the Mirdan Hammer is a great PvP weapon.

The Northern Regalia is indeed powerful (480 - 600+ split physical and magical damage). I am building a Dark Purple Flame to experiment if it's effective in blocking magical weapons like the Regalia. It's hard to say because the BP may be too agile to block in real combat situation.

The Regalia swing animation is a little slow.

At this moment, I believe the Makoto with the Clever Rat ring is more damaging. I heard it also has a fast jab animation when used in certain way. According to some posters, there are finer grain controls that varies the weapon's speed and motion.

For high level players like yourself, I think all weapons that scale with stats are dangerous, even the Sticky Compound Long Bow:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=18605182&postcount=22585

Dexterity 60 + Sticky Compound Long Bow (+5) + White Arrows + Morion Blade + Clever' Rats Ring + <30% health = the most epic 1-hit arrow kills.

example:

someone invaded me in 1-4, he was wearing Thief's Ring but had a buff on so i saw where he was running, i free-aimed with my bow and bam, the arrow hit him and over 1000 dmg no way in hell did he see that coming lol. i can't believe i hit a moving target like that, very lucky shot but so awesome.

also, someone summoned me to 1-3, and i one-shotted all the red-eye knights etc with my arrows, and Penetrator went down with FOUR arrows it was quite funny. the host sent me a msg saying "you're my hero and i admire you". (ridiculous i know). i told him it's just a trick so hopefully that person reserves his hero worship for someone who deserves it lol.

patsu

27-Nov-2009, 19:02

Ok, just found out I can buy a Japan PS Store card from online sites like
gaminglue.com. They will email me the code in one hour. The Japan PS Store does not accept foreign credit card info.

Demon's Souls dynamic theme... here I come !

specwarGP2

27-Nov-2009, 19:48

played another stretch of pvp where I fought one black phantom and as soon as the match was over, I'd get invaded again. This time I didnt do so well. Several of my losses were due to extremely bad lag. In fact I had a blue phantom helping me (who was a black phantom who killed me earlier) and this guy with a dragon mirdan hammer destroyed both of us. It looked like his hammer was shooting fireballs! I think I went 5-5 this time around.

Based on what I've seen in PvP, I doubt that you can successfullly fight an experienced high level fighter with just a bow. Players typically have heavy armor on and can move around very quickly. I lost to one guy using the DBS and he had full armor and a purple flame shield and he could roll around with no penalty!!

Some players are cheap, others can be cool. One bp after I congratulated on his win over me came back as a blue phantom and helped me. He gave me 48 ephemeral eyes!

Patsu, are you trying to get the platinum in the game? Let me know if you need any particular stones to forge weapons. I have extra pure bladestones (which are supposedly the hardest item to get).

patsu

27-Nov-2009, 20:24

Based on what I've seen in PvP, I doubt that you can successfullly fight an experienced high level fighter with just a bow. Players typically have heavy armor on and can move around very quickly. I lost to one guy using the DBS and he had full armor and a purple flame shield and he could roll around with no penalty!!

For PvP bow use, it depends on how the BP approach you. There was one time a BP shot arrows at me from across the moat in 1-3.

Rolling with Purple Flame and Dragon Bone Smasher *plus* armor is definitely insane ! I still can't wear a full Gloom armor yet (Missing the helmet and the hand guard).

Some players are cheap, others can be cool. One bp after I congratulated on his win over me came back as a blue phantom and helped me. He gave me 48 ephemeral eyes!

That's like one game-worth of ephemeral eyes. :shock:

Patsu, are you trying to get the platinum in the game? Let me know if you need any particular stones to forge weapons. I have extra pure bladestones (which are supposedly the hardest item to get).

Heh heh, not a Trophy whore. I just want to build a "roll-able" character with full Gloom and Purple Flame, with a Blessed weapon. I have not decided what basic weapon to use yet. Was thinking about a Claymore, but a Mirdan Hammer or a giant axe sounds interesting also.

specwarGP2

27-Nov-2009, 21:00

Heh heh, not a Trophy whore. I just want to build a "roll-able" character with full Gloom and Purple Flame, with a Blessed weapon. I have not decided what basic weapon to use yet. Was thinking about a Claymore, but a Mirdan Hammer or a giant axe sounds interesting also.

You will need at least 52-54 endurance for that build I think. If you go with a claymore go for crushing so you can enchant it. Mirdan Hammer is a good choice but only if you 2 hand it. from playing around with a great axe, I dont think its a good weapon for pvp. its very powerful and has knockdown power but its really slow and the reach isnt good at all. Meat cleaver is as fast (or faster), has more power, better reach and knockdown power.

Scott_Arm

27-Nov-2009, 21:51

patsu

28-Nov-2009, 01:12

Yes, the bow is extremely useful. You can use it like a (regular) third person view ranged weapon. You can also zoom in/out like an FPS sniper rifle. I used it like a binoculars sometimes.

Once I spot a breathe (Pulsating, faint white puff against a dark background), I know *something* lurks there. What happens next depends on your aggressiveness. ^_^

I got a screenshot somewhere in this thread.

You will need at least 52-54 endurance for that build I think. If you go with a claymore go for crushing so you can enchant it. Mirdan Hammer is a good choice but only if you 2 hand it. from playing around with a great axe, I dont think its a good weapon for pvp. its very powerful and has knockdown power but its really slow and the reach isnt good at all. Meat cleaver is as fast (or faster), has more power, better reach and knockdown power.

Ha ha, I just thought it'd look threatening with 2 pointy horns (Gloom Armor) and a giant axe. :)

I was also thinking you may be able to fight Northern Regalia in a tight corridor. The Regalia swing is very wide. Corridor walls hindered me a few times. In terms of swing, I like Dragon Bone Smasher best. It has a vertical stroke which is suitable in narrow as well as open space. I could kill a Crystal Lizard easily with DBS's too (even with one-hand).

Yemeth

28-Nov-2009, 07:03

Finished my new game+ yesterday, and not only that I think that this is my favorite PS3 game so far, but I rank Demon's Souls in my top ten lists of all time (next to Planescape: Torment, Super Shinobi/Revenge of Shinobi, Pirates etc.).. The art (audio+video) is something fantastic and certain ideas are so ingenious that I can still one shake my head in awe, even while seeing it for the n-th time.

What is funny is that I cannot bring myself to invade someones world, I don't want to frustrate anyone :) . So even after playing for many hours I have still not invaded any world...

As I am in an completely different timezone I had not so many invasions. When I was finishing 1-4 and fighting a very long fight, I had an invasion after being in the level for over 1h :) . Unlucky for the invader I just got into the lift before him :D . Now I am thinking about make some kind of black phantom honey pot, like sneaking behind some mobs so that the invaders think that I have not yet passed there and then welcoming him with my northern regalia (and smack his weapon a bit with the Dark Silver Shield +4).

Cheers...

specwarGP2

29-Nov-2009, 09:42

what soul level are you guys? I'm 147 now. wouldt mind some help getting through ng+

PARANOiA

29-Nov-2009, 23:35

The scenario for me, was this:
I fought some of those shield blobs after the Phalanx boss' chamber and made my way up to the stone path the top of the wall. The dragons swoop down and breath fire, so you have to time running across the wall so that you won't get killed. My character couldn't survive the fire. I'd clear the first rampart, make my way through the tunnel in the wall, fight the dogs, come up in the next rampart, finish off the remaining enemies and then prepare to avoid the next segment of dragon fire. Avoiding the dragon fire wasn't hard. I'd get to the other side, wipe out the crossbowman and then square off with the shielded knight. The first time I wasn't expecting him and he killed me. So I went back through the whole thing again, fought the knight and just as I delivered the killing blow, and second knight unexpectedly stabbed me in the back.

Ok, so I do the whole thing again, get to that fight and die because of a screw up with the targeting system, which I do not like. I'd prefer to have a button to hold. Still, human error. Once again, I go through the whole thing, only this time I get burnt up by the second dragon. While I was waiting for the dragon to swoop down, I was standing quite a distance back preparing for my run. For some reason the fire killed me anyway, wiping out all of those demon souls I had collected. That was the first death that really bothered me because I lost a lot of souls that I was carrying, and I hadn't even done anything wrong. Do I want to grind and get them all back? Not really. There's no fun in going through areas that are easy just to grind for "money."

Ok, so I put that aside and decide to go through it all again. This time, I die twice at the first dragon. What is going on? Suddenly my guy is getting tired half way to the rampart and the dragon is wiping me out. I figure some of the big stuff I'd picked up recently like shields, halberds etc are killing my endurance. So is there a way to drop that stuff? Not that I could figure out. I can't sell it and get money for it either, so why would i keep it? I went back to nexus, dropped of all my extra stuff with that storage guy, even though I'd rather not fill up my storage with junk, and tried again. Made it back to those two knights, screwed up the targeting again and died and decided to take a break.

My problem was that after repeating an area a few times, it stopped being fun. All of it, leading up to those two knights, was incredibly easy. Then I'd have thirty seconds of fun trying to fight them, and then back to five minutes of boring trying to get back to them.

I have mixed feelings about the design of the game. I appreciate that there are real penalties for death, but treading over the same ground, fighting the same enemies in the same spots etc wasn't that much fun. There is some better balance between save/load and retreading long segments of the game. I guess that segment I was playing wasn't that long, it just wasn't fun after the first few times. It becomes a chore to get back to where you were. I want to see new things, new places, not repeat the same set piece over and over. If every inch was a challenge for me, it would probably be better, because I'd have fun fighting my way through. Maybe my complaint is that it was too easy at times? I don't know.

I think I had to grind a little bit more and be more mindful to go back to nexus and spend my souls instead of carrying a huge sack of them with the potential of losing them all. I'm still considering picking it up, because it's a style of tactical sword fighting that is rare in games, and I enjoy it. The block, parry and attacks really work well. The only thing I don't like is the targeting. I died a number of times trying to back away from an enemy, thinking I had them targeted, only to turn my back on them and get killed.

The exact same thing happened to me actually and I nearly threw the game in as a mess. I actually got past all that only to be one-hit-killed by the boss :/

I ended up moving onto 2.1 and 3.1 and had far more fun there. I have put this to the side for now but I'll come back when I'm feeling more patient. I recommend having a go at other levels rather than trying to squeeze through a bit where you're getting stuck.

patsu

30-Nov-2009, 00:48

what soul level are you guys? I'm 147 now. wouldt mind some help getting through ng+

I am only at 130+.

I recommend having a go at other levels rather than trying to squeeze through a bit where you're getting stuck.

Yes, that's good advice for the game.

The exact same thing happened to me actually and I nearly threw the game in as a mess. I actually got past all that only to be one-hit-killed by the boss :/

Another sound approach is to try a different tactics (e.g., Don't go near the bosses). But melee is definitely more intense/fun.

I think the game is not hard if you adopt the appropriate tactics. Do feel free to experiment or run away first, then ask around.

inefficient

01-Dec-2009, 15:23

So many things I still don't know about this game. I didn't even know you could zoom with the bow until yesterday when I was like 40 hours in! I also didn't know the Thief ring was so useful till I went back and picked it up just today.

I've only been invaded twice so far. Probably because I spend most of my time in Soul form. First time was when I was going after the Monk, but I died due the environment and never even saw the guy. Second time just was today, and I killed him. Luckily he was a melee character like me. He had a Tower shield and some kind of buff I don't know about that made him glow white. But even so, I definitely had the upper hand over him the whole time. Took care of him pretty quickly. It was a bit laggy though.

I'm in the low 60's now. But I think I can beat my first game soon. I only have 5 bosses left to defeat now. At least according to the trophy list. Mostly in 4 and 5.

I started as a Priest class. But I primarily use melee weapons. The only Miracles I use are Evacuate and Heal. Vitality, Strength, Endurace are all up there around ~30. Faith and Dex has some points in it. But my Intelligence is low, I only have 90 mana-- enough to cast Heal 3 times or Evacuate to leave the level quickly. Magic and Luck I have never spent points in. My Luck is still only 8.

patsu

01-Dec-2009, 16:35

So many things I still don't know about this game. I didn't even know you could zoom with the bow until yesterday when I was like 40 hours in! I also didn't know the Thief ring was so useful till I went back and picked it up just today.

Wow, playing without the Thief Ring. I never take it off. you must be pestered by the monsters frequently.

I've only been invaded twice so far. Probably because I spend most of my time in Soul form. First time was when I was going after the Monk, but I died due the environment and never even saw the guy. Second time just was today, and I killed him. Luckily he was a melee character like me. He had a Tower shield and some kind of buff I don't know about that made him glow white. But even so, I definitely had the upper hand over him the whole time. Took care of him pretty quickly. It was a bit laggy though.

That would be Warding (or "Total Protection" in Japan). Reduce physical damage. So your weapon has magic, poison or fire damage ? If not, you must be an excellent melee guy. :)

I'm in the low 60's now. But I think I can beat my first game soon. I only have 5 bosses left to defeat now. At least according to the trophy list. Mostly in 4 and 5.

I started as a Priest class. But I primarily use melee weapons. The only Miracles I use are Evacuate and Heal. Vitality, Strength, Endurace are all up there around ~30. Faith and Dex has some points in it. But my Intelligence is low, I only have 90 mana-- enough to cast Heal 3 times or Evacuate to leave the level quickly. Magic and Luck I have never spent points in. My Luck is still only 8.

Dex is useful for Sticky bows, and 1-2 unique weapons.

Magic and Faith is good for magic damage.

Intelligence/Will is useful too if you want to cast higher level spell (like Warding).

Endurance is not so useful for better equipment, if you have good melee skills. As long as your stamina bar is long enough for your style, you're good to go. At higher level, the armor may not protect you much. My Endurance is the highest just because I want to wear certain vain armor. And also because I'm inconsistent, so the longer stamina bar allows me to make some mistake and still back off quickly.

tha_con

01-Dec-2009, 17:34

So, I started a game as a thief...and I'm thinking maybe I made a mistake? I'm getting owned really hard. Any recommendations for classes to help me not get my butt kicked?

specwarGP2

01-Dec-2009, 18:00

So, I started a game as a thief...and I'm thinking maybe I made a mistake? I'm getting owned really hard. Any recommendations for classes to help me not get my butt kicked?

Knight, Temple Knight. They both start with good armor so your survivability is much better. Starting class only matters in the beginning of the game because it determines what gear you start off with. After 1-1 you can build your character however you want and you have the chance to acquire all the gear of the different starting classes right after you beat 1-1.

edit: Actually I was thinking... starting class does matter if you're trying to build a PvP character. There's basically two build types, magic and melee. So if you're going to be a melee character you should start off with a class that has as few magic points as possible, otherwise you're just wasting levels. If you're going to be a magic user you shouldnt devote any points to faith. You always need to have some points devoted to strength and dex. Also you dont want a class that has levels devoted to luck which is completely useless for pvp

patsu

01-Dec-2009, 19:30

It's ok. The Royal has a starting Soul level of 1. So the points in Magic are essentially free. I think all the starting classes have the same total stat points (Could be wrong though).

specwarGP2

01-Dec-2009, 22:36

Royal has to start off at level 1 because that class is extremely weak to begin with and needs to be able to purchase stat points at a cheaper soul cost. Knights and Temple knights can start farming 4-1 right away after the phalanx boss and level up quickly, but a royal would have an extremely difficult time because of the lack of armor, physical defense and stamina. If a skeleton rolled into a low level royal you're basically dead.

If you grind 4-1 farming souls for a few hours and get your character slvl to 25 (like I did with my temple knight), the game becomes significantly easier (NG). I'd also play through 2-1 and 2-2 to get ores so you can upgrade your weapon as well.

patsu

01-Dec-2009, 23:12

I checked the guide quickly. I was wrong. A starting Royalty (Soul Level 1) has 3 fewer stats points from a beginning Temple Knight (Soul Level 4).

So it depends on your play style. Even without a strong armor, I didn't have much problem with a Royal in 1-1, 1-2 and 4-1 using ranged attack (Fire and run away !). The skeletons require careful maneuver but it is very satisfying to defeat them once you figure out their moves.

I managed to melee the 5-3 boss the other day. Definitely more satisfying than ranged attack.

Yemeth

02-Dec-2009, 15:46

specwarGP2, I am at 133 now but in NG++ and in Europe (don´t know if you are in NA or somewhere else)...

You can add me to your PSN friends, if you want, maybe we see each other online...

About the starter class etc., I still stand by my old thoughts that the starter class/origin usefullness depends on the playstyle of the player.

tha_con, if you want to read my beginner hints, go to: http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?p=1353850#post1353850 . Good luck!

Cheers...

patsu

03-Dec-2009, 18:24

Interesting articles on Demon's Souls:
http://www.siliconera.com/2009/12/02/dragon-quest-ix-demons-souls-are-hot-on-google-japan/

Dragon Quest IX topped Japan’s list of fastest rising search terms according to Google’s yearly zeitgeist report.

...

It wasn’t the only game on the charts. Demon’s Souls ranked number six topping Japanese drama Zenigeba and Kamen Rider Decade.

Why did these games make the list? Not completely sure, but players searching for guides probably helped both terms.

This writer tries to talk about Demon's Souls "story":
http://bitmob.com/index.php/component/content/article/1/4763-demons-souls-telling-story-through-gameplay

He claims that the player's action is part of the whole demonization story. Not sure if I agree with him. All I felt was I needed to be more agile, or I need more stones. :-P (and get away from me, Black Phantoms, when I was farming).

However, I do love the atmosphere.

Demon’s Souls does not impart this narrative through cut-scenes or dialogue choices. It doesn't have a morality or karma system. To completely experience the game, players are encouraged to become demons themselves. By taking advantage of specific game mechanics encouraged by the game itself, player actions further the story of Demon’s Souls.

Do you really have to assassinate NPCs to get all colorless souls ?

specwarGP2

03-Dec-2009, 20:05

patsu - re: your spoiler. yes, and also if you want to get a particular trophy you do.

yemeth - unfortunately I'm in NA, so unless you're playing the NA version we'll never encounter each other. It sure is lonely once you reach 145+. I hardly ever get invaded now and havent seen a blue sign in a while. maybe I should find someone to help me delevel.

patsu

05-Dec-2009, 07:02

Heh, gaming site still write about Demon's Souls ?
http://www.1up.com/do/blogEntry?bId=9011722

In all, Demon's Souls is one of the most intriguing games I've played all year. I feel like I could spend another month writing about it, just because it's so hard to quantify what exactly makes this game great. I suppose I'll leave you by paraphrasing Potter Stewart -- I know a great game when I see it, and right now, Demon's Souls is my game of the year.

obonicus

05-Dec-2009, 18:06

Well, that's an RPG blog.

patsu

06-Dec-2009, 05:19

Okie... I see they have a preview and a review for the game. At this stage, it would be cool to find out more about post-Demon's Souls activities, or in-game tips.

I am happy he (she ?) wrote a Demon's Souls article coz it's one of my most favorite games, but I wish the author write down what's on his/her mind here:

I feel like I could spend another month writing about it, just because it's so hard to quantify what exactly makes this game great.

It'd be much more entertaining and informative than yet another summary. :(

inefficient

07-Dec-2009, 16:37

I'm tearing my way through NG+. Just the maiden and false king left standing. I want to do the pure black character path this time. But no one wants to fight me! I keep getting disconnecters when I am summoned by the Monk in 3-3. I don't actually have the heart to use the black stone.

Tomorrow I think I will just start killing vendors to get pure black CT. All I want is the Foe's ring, so I can get the trophy. Then I will just move on to NG++.

patsu

07-Dec-2009, 23:58

Heh heh, NG+ is easy for me too (False King and Penetrator left).

I am missing the Foe ring and one of the Prayer rings. This time I will take the bad ending regardless.

I thought the Japanese servers have lot's of Black Phantoms. May be it's starting to get on people's nerve. I fought 3-3 boss offline in NG and NG+ because I wanted pure white WT.

patsu

10-Dec-2009, 03:01

I am happy he (she ?) wrote a Demon's Souls article coz it's one of my most favorite games, but I wish the author write down what's on his/her mind here:

It'd be much more entertaining and informative than yet another summary. :(

Someone posted this on GAF:
http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/acz2t/let_me_tell_you_about_demons_souls/

Let me tell you about Demon's Souls. (self.gaming)
submitted 2 hours ago by Ciserus
Demon’s Souls is a game that will make you into a man...

Some of the comments are rather funny. I lol'ed.

Yemeth

11-Dec-2009, 19:39

yemeth - unfortunately I'm in NA, so unless you're playing the NA version we'll never encounter each other. It sure is lonely once you reach 145+. I hardly ever get invaded now and havent seen a blue sign in a while. maybe I should find someone to help me delevel.

Hello, sorry for the very late reply... I own the NA version, but I asked more about your geographical/timezone location as my timezone prevents me for easily playing with you guys in NA... If you want to add me as a friend, my PSN username is Yemeth, just drop me a line if you see me online. But, a warning, I am only an average player who is mostly in the wimpy pure white WT, so I am everything but a DS pro (not to mention my great block/hit tactic, Sun Tzu would be proud to see such perfection). For example, the golden skeletons are still mega though for me etc.

The other day I got the miracle that banishes BP invaders and it is utterly useless, seems that the DS shield is countering it so the invader killed me 2-3 times while I was running around and screaming "just let me banish one BP to see how it looks and what happens, then we will fight in your next invasion!". Strangely he killed me without caring for it :) .

I think I am in NG++, but as I have rushed through NG+ (no PB WT et al) I am missing most of the trophies. A few days ago, killed my first primeval demons and only one dropped the colourless soul :( . !

patsu, thank you for that link, that was hilarious. Some comments where even in the same league as the original (e.g. search for the DS experience "read it with Christopher Walken´s voice")...

Cheers...

specwarGP2

11-Dec-2009, 20:04

Yemeth, what lvl are you now? I'm 167 I think. I just beat world 5 in NG+, and boy was it frustrating. I think it's because my character has been built more for PvP... which even in body form I rarely get invaded these days. hopefully we're close enough in levels that we can play together (and trade stuff too!)

inefficient

13-Dec-2009, 15:37

I am lvl 175 now and just started on NG+++ this will be my final one.

I only need 2 more trophies to get the platinum. I need one more chunk of Marrowstone to get my final weapon trophy. And I need to beat Worlds 3 & 5 to get the final 2 spells I need for the Sage's trophy. Then I can finally put this game to bed!

specwarGP2

13-Dec-2009, 20:37

inefficient

14-Dec-2009, 10:37

I have marrowstone chunks... if I give you one, will you let me hold your +5 marrowstone weapon so I can get the trophy?

It might be hard to catch me online. But sure, I don't mind.

Edit: I got Platinum now!

patsu

17-Dec-2009, 08:00

Two things:

(A) Zero Punctuation ridicules Demon's Souls (being his usual self):
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/1321-Demons-Souls ;-)

(B) Winter Solstice event. Now I can rescue Lord Rydell:
http://www.atlus.com/res/demonssouls_faithful_pwtease_3.jpg

Comstedt

21-Dec-2009, 08:08

Been following the forums for some months but just now registrered :). People still play this alot? Im having Demon's souls abstinence and I haven't even played it, ordered it yesterday, but I doubt it will arrive this week 'cause of Christmas and the chaos the snow brought us, oh well. This game seems absolutely lovely, a refreshing breeze in todays mostly mainstream easymode games if you can call them that?

OT My PC just died :(...

patsu

21-Dec-2009, 16:18

Ah, another adventurer to mend the world. :)

Too bad you'll likely miss the entire White World Tendency event. You could get some cool equipments in White WT.

patsu

21-Dec-2009, 23:13

Gametrailers awarded "Best New IP 2009" to Demon's Souls:
http://trailers-ak.gametrailers.com/gt_vault/12440/t_gtgoty09_newip_993f.mov

Yay~~

Comstedt

22-Dec-2009, 08:04

Ah, another adventurer to mend the world. :)

Too bad you'll likely miss the entire White World Tendency event. You could get some cool equipments in White WT.

Figures I'd miss something like that :wink:

Comstedt

22-Dec-2009, 08:18

Can't find anywhere to edit my post...Sorry. But seems like the site i ordered from are out of stock and they don't know when they will be either, since I live in sweden it's kind of hard to comeby.

patsu

22-Dec-2009, 19:02

... and one more:
http://bestof.ign.com/2009/ps3/best-role-playing-game.html

Best Role-Playing Game
Demon's Souls

HIGHLIGHTS
Unabashedly challenging
Addictive character progression
Stellar atmosphere

Demon's Souls is very much a love it or hate it type of game, but those that love it find it incredibly addictive, atmospheric and even entrancing. The world is brilliantly bleak, the creature design is great and the punishing save/death system makes you respect your abilities. It's definitely one of a kind.

Are these really the same guys who developed Armored Core ?

Comstedt

23-Dec-2009, 09:01

... and one more:
http://bestof.ign.com/2009/ps3/best-role-playing-game.html

Are these really the same guys who developed Armored Core ?

Hard to believe? Finally my copy shipped from Asia today, will take some while mail office kinda busy at christmas times hehe, god I can't wait to try it out!

vazel

25-Dec-2009, 22:02

Another award. Gamespot's 2009 best game. http://www.gamespot.com/best-of/game-of-the-year/index.html?page=2

patsu

26-Dec-2009, 08:17

The direct link to the Demon's Souls award video:
http://www.gamespot.com/best-of/game-of-the-year/index.html

It explains why they love the game: An online experience that is like no other, the aesthetics and "rule-breaking" addictive gameplay.

The video is awesome because it reminds me of my first time playing the game. The GameSpot crew clearly overlook the flaws, but they are largely correct with the positives.

Comstedt

26-Dec-2009, 20:07

DS been receiving quite many awards now :) pleased to see, I hope it will live up to my expectations, can't wait till me and my bf can start playing!

patsu

27-Dec-2009, 16:17

You'll need 3 things:
* Patience
* Enough time to focus your attention on one game. It's not so good to play this game in short sessions.
* Willingness/ability to lock-on using R3 quickly in assorted situations.

In fact, I am wondering if Demon's Souls fans will like Heavy Rain since they both require patience. ^_^

EDIT: On hind sight, I think you might want to stay as spoiler free as possible (Probably too late >_<). One of the most refreshing experiences in the game is the anonymity of the player and the unknowns out there. You are essentially a very weak and mortal person. The feeling plays a big part at the beginning of every world.

specwarGP2

04-Jan-2010, 11:46

I can finally put this baby to rest. Got the platinum, took me over 113 hrs!

patsu

04-Jan-2010, 17:36

http://www.andriasang.com/e/blog/2010/01/05/demons_souls_is_the_best/

In Japan...

Demon's Souls will join the Sony's PlayStation 3 the Best budget lineup shortly. A listing at Amazon.co.jp promises a release on February 25 with pricing set at ¥3,800.

...

More recently, the game has been a hot topic at gaming blogs thanks to the strong critical and fan acclaim outside of Japan.

All the strong press has apparently kept used pricing for the game up. Game Jouhou reports that used shops currently charge between ¥4,000 and ¥5,000 for the game.

Comstedt

09-Jan-2010, 05:33

Game finally was delivered yesterday, been playing a couple of hours, defeated Phalanx boss, tower knight (with some help), vanguard and the spider. I just love this game sofar, the corpse physics bug where you drag them with you was abit weird at first, but pretty easily overlooked the rest of the game is so awesome, animations are wonderful and the atmosphere and setting is immersive, I just wanna keep playing it. Though having some trouble of finding my way, not really sure where to go :)

DrJay24

14-Jan-2010, 18:13

I'm getting close to finishing my first play through. I'm like SL 62 and basically a mage. I have some nice gear due to a friend farming and getting stuff for me. I play almost exclusively co-op, so I did not really see the hard part of the game, I never died over and over, we typically breezed through levels and bosses.

Great game, I will have to play NG+ solo to get a better feel for the direness. One of the best games of 2009, I'm glad From Software did not just give us more of the same, so many games end up being clones of what sells well.

patsu

15-Jan-2010, 01:14

I'm glad From Software did not just give us more of the same, so many games end up being clones of what sells well.

Yes, I always thought game developers could do more than simple "mechanical" improvements to multiplayer games (party system, chat, game modes).

Demon's Souls is the first and only title that far exceeded my expectations in online gaming (It's like seeing Quaz51's calculator in LittleBigPlanet). Never thought of online gaming as a story telling element (NPC summoning players to fulfill pre-set story role, augmenting the feeling of loneliness using other online players, ...). The designer -- whoever he is -- is very perceptive/insightful. I really look forward to his next game.

2real4tv

15-Jan-2010, 05:59

I have completed the Archdemons of worlds 2,4 and 5. Currently working on 3-2 and its been frustrating if its not me falling off a cliff its those bug looking critters that break my weapon and armor somehow.

Story is pretty awesome and anyone who is into fantasy hack slash/RPG needs to play it. My initial impressions weren't that positive but as you get further you see how vast the world is and it seems each NPC says something worth listening to...the developers definitely put alot of work into this. I hope there is a sequel and Sony puts some money behind it.

2real4tv

15-Jan-2010, 06:01

specwarGP2

15-Jan-2010, 18:26

Equip a fast sword and chop em up before they have a chance to hit you and break your armor and weapon. uchigatana works really well on these guys

patsu

19-Jan-2010, 05:33

Yet another Demon's Souls analysis/lecture:
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/26786/Analysis_Assassins_Vs_Demons__A_Good_Place_To_Die. php

In a Gamasutra analysis piece, writer/professor Michael Abbott draws from his recent experiences with Assassin's Creed II and Demon's Souls to contrast the effects of realistic environments versus artist-conceived backdrops.

It talks about how DS created an immersive environment. The comments are interesting too.

Scott_Arm

19-Jan-2010, 14:44

Yet another Demon's Souls analysis/lecture:
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/26786/Analysis_Assassins_Vs_Demons__A_Good_Place_To_Die. php

It talks about how DS created an immersive environment. The comments are interesting too.

I didn't find that analysis particularly interesting. I understand what he's talking about. There is a difference between having a backdrop and an environment to be immersed in. I just don't understand why Demon Soul's is any different than Assassin's Creed 2, in that regard, having played both. Assassin's Creed 2 is an incredibly easy game, so far, and I think if it had steep penalties for dieing he'd feel just as stressed and "immersed" while leaping from rooftop to rooftop. The environment itself is not the difference so much as the difficulty and penalties in the game. In theory, I agree with what he's saying, even though the analysis isn't particularly deep.

patsu

19-Jan-2010, 18:31

The environment itself is not the difference so much as the difficulty and penalties in the game.

He's just saying the DS environment is "active". It works on you as much as the bosses and grunts, hence it's not trivialized or forgettable. It's not just the difficulty because the sound, visual, danger/traps, unexpected events, activated shortcuts, special loots, integrated multiplayer interactions all combined to form a very unique experience + architecture for each world.

It's a simple and subtle concept, but very well executed.

The difficulty of the game is yet another dynamics: Great reward vs high risk/difficulty.

Scott_Arm

19-Jan-2010, 21:23

I just think it's the death penalties and difficulty that makes the environment stressful. You worry about hidden traps, visibility etc because you're really worried about dieing. What I meant was, the environment in Assassin's Creed 2 would seem just as meaningful if you were really worried about dieing. If you died from a realistic fall, or if you could only be hit once or twice before dieing, and if the combat was much more difficult etc, all of the obstacles would be very stressing, if you're the type that gets stressed over a game. You'd be worried about missing jumps, falling, getting cornered, getting knocked over in crowds and the shouts of guards might cause you to panic. The actual design of the levels and atmosphere is actually fairly standard or normal nowadays, for both games. Demon Souls has multiplayer, which is obviously a unique implementation, and the whole light-dark thing.

I'm not knocking Demon Souls. I think it's a pretty good game. I also think Assassin's Creed 2 is good, but not one of my favourites. I just didn't agree with the analysis.

patsu

19-Jan-2010, 21:36

The reason I said it's not just the difficulty because it's more than that. :)

The worlds embodied different fears (not difficulty). e.g., claustrophobic, achluophobic, acrophobic, iophobic, autophobic, fear for losing souls, etc. The developers weaved these feelings into the world design. Even now, I still remember myself hugging against the World 4 cliffside for dear life (I could almost feel my hands turning cold with the virtual wind). Is it difficult to pass the stage ? Nope, not with a Thief Ring. It felt more difficult than it really was.

The embeded multiplayer elements exaggerated those feelings even more (e.g., co-op partners who cannot talk, %$*)%$( invaders, the white "ghosts" who seem to lunged towards you occasionally, player messages that could be truth or lies).

In addition, the sound is surprisingly effective in the DS world. I love the prisoners' wail and the woman's singing in the World 3 prison.

All these environmental elements contribute to the Demon's Souls world. The pressure is constant. Even in the Nexus, you have to worry about hitting the vendors accidentally. Is it difficult in the Nexus ? Nope.

The DS worlds are memorable because you have to stay alert and watch out for the tiniest details. I don't think this feeling is standard in other games. Not at all. The game is not difficult technically; but a lot of time, it stresses you out and makes you think that it's more difficult than it really is.

Scott_Arm

19-Jan-2010, 23:09

I guess I just don't get as emotionally involved in games as you or that writer. I see nothing out of the ordinary in either game, in terms of atmosphere or attempts at immersion. I just think Demon Souls is more difficult than is the norm nowadays, and that creates a certain level of stress that would be present in Assassin's Creed 2, if it were to offer the same difficulty and penalties for death.

patsu

19-Jan-2010, 23:16

It's an observation among Demon's Souls fans, more than just me and that writer. :) That's why I'm interested to see the comments in that article. It is not uncommon to find DS reviews that raved at the atmosphere and level design of the game, despite the difficulty.

I suspect you'll see some of these elements in other games and online services in the future.

EDIT: I'd agree that AC2 is a different game (e.g., It is set in Florence) and cannot really be compared together. But the point is DS's environment is as influential as the bosses and grunts in the game. It demands player attention too.

Scott_Arm

19-Jan-2010, 23:23

patsu

19-Jan-2010, 23:50

I just don't understand what elements you're talking about? The way they did the multiplayer is definitely unique. I'm sure it will be copied/expanded upon, but that really doesn't change anything about how I feel when I play the game, how immersive it is or how "active" the environment is.

On multiplayer, have you been invaded before ? Most people dread invasion. It certainly freaked me out the first time. It is the most nerve wrecking gaming experience I have ever had to date.

The white ghosts of other players made a few of us jumped.

The player messages, silent co-op partners made us feel lonely in this sense:

http://www.1up.com/do/blogEntry?bId=9011722
"I've heard that the inspiration for the online component came about when one of the designers was stranded on a mountain road during a snowstorm. He was eventually freed by a few anonymous rescuers, and he later found himself wondering about who they were."

... and whether they made it out safely too. This is exactly how I felt after a co-op before I read that interview. :)

In the end it boils down to game and level design. The individual elements are not new, just like shading is not new. But the integrated environment is able to draw out emotion from the players.

There's nothing unique about the sound, the design, the interactivity with the environments, the combat or anything. It is a good sum of its parts, but the innovation is really just the return of extreme and unforgiving penalties, like in old school games.

See above. Innovation is not atomic. Difficulty is not the only lesson here. For what it's worth, the producer said they focused on creating sense of triumph for the players. Difficulty is only one way to do it.

If you were to take away the death penalties, and the quick deaths, you'd have a pretty standard hack'n slash rpg with a neat multiplayer mechanic on top.

I don't think that's fair. The combat is definitely more than standard hack'n slash affair like Diablo, Romance of the Three Kingdom, etc. It requires careful observation and execution. Otherwise, where is the difficulty you mentioned ?

As for the environment, you're missing the atmosphere (The good sum of its parts).

DrJay24

20-Jan-2010, 00:14

but the innovation is really just the return of extreme and unforgiving penalties, like in old school games.

Of course you are ignoring all the real innovations. The unique co-op and PvP (blue, black and red phantoms). The red blood stains, player left messages, white phantoms. I have not found the game very hard, due to o-op help, but the innovation still stands out IMO.

Carl B

20-Jan-2010, 05:54

It's ok if you don't love the game Scott, we forgive you. :) Not everyone is going to love it of course, how could they? But for me it definitely may be my 2009 highlight.

Patsu, as for you...

...Romance of the Three Kingdoms...

If you're talking that Dynasty Warriors nonsense... but RotK is one of the finest strategy franchises in the world! ;)

Oh Romance of the Three Kingdoms... when will you have a PS3 release?

2real4tv

20-Jan-2010, 06:02

Just finished the game a couple days ago. Man that King Alliant was a pain. Had a wierd glitch happen where there were three blue phantoms for a total of four of us....lol. Was a little disappointed by the end boss fight was preparing for a epic fight because the opening was so beautiful but it ended up being a push over. Started NG+ and was invaded immediately and lost because I wasn't prepared...lol great game and was my GOTY for 2009. I hope other devs that produce games similiar to this adapt some of the multiplayer aspects.

patsu

20-Jan-2010, 06:35

If you're talking that Dynasty Warriors nonsense... but RotK is one of the finest strategy franchises in the world! ;)

Oh Romance of the Three Kingdoms... when will you have a PS3 release?

:lol: Yeah, I was talking about the Dynasty Warrior game.

EDIT:
Demon's Souls has been nominated for Game of the Year in GDC 2010:
http://www.gdconf.com/news/gdc/uncharted_2_flower_acii_lead_1_1.html?utm_source=f eedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+GameDevelopersConference+%28G ame+Developers+Conference%29

Game Of The Year
Uncharted 2: Among Thieves (Naughty Dog)
Dragon Age: Origins (BioWare)
Batman: Arkham Asylum (Rocksteady Studios)
Demon's Souls (From Software)
Assassin's Creed II (Ubisoft Montreal)

patsu

30-Jan-2010, 17:54

Demon's Souls Deluxe Edition raised as high as $116:
http://www.joystiq.com/2010/01/30/video-game-price-charts-reveal-biggest-resale-prices-of-2009/

I should have bought 2 copies.

VideoGamePriceCharts.com, a site that tracks average online prices for video games and consoles, has released its year-end report for 2009, and if you were buying and selling games speculatively (we all do that, right?), you'll want to check it out. Okay, so maybe you weren't picking up the now-discontinued Demon's Souls Deluxe Edition because you hoped it would get rare, but if so, you're in luck: That game topped the list, raising in value from an MSRP of $69.99 up to a high of $116. Grand Theft Auto IV's Lost and Damned retail box (which contained a code for the DLC) is another big collector's item, and if you were so lucky as to nab a copy of Bass Pro Shops' The Strike (with Fishing Rod) for Xbox 360, then reel in the money, because it raised in value over 50%.

patsu

05-Feb-2010, 19:53

Update on the replacement guides for DS Deluxe version:
http://playstation.joystiq.com/2010/02/05/demons-souls-replacement-guides-ship-next-week/

Atlus has announced that the replacement guides will begin shipping this Monday, February 8. Late last year, after discovering that many Demon's Souls collector's edition guides had "unusual cover ink wear / fading" problems, Atlus opened a replacement program.

patsu

07-Feb-2010, 06:52

Attention new Demon Soul's adventurer:
http://www.joystiq.com/2010/02/06/atlus-lets-you-pick-your-special-v-day-event-in-demons-souls/

Atlus is allowing players to vote on the special event which will overtake its hard-as-hell RPG Demon's Souls on Valentine's Day -- will it be the easy-going White Tendency which appeared during the holiday season? Or the extra difficult Black Tendency which destroyed players on Halloween? Only you, and your either loving or jilted heart, can decide.

Vote here (http://www.demons-souls.com/vday.php)

patsu

10-Feb-2010, 20:38

Demon's Souls 2 rumor:
http://kotaku.com/5468419/demons-souls-2-hints

a podcast from Japanese gaming news source Dengeki hints that a sequel for a challenging and hard game released last year would be coming out this fall. The game is said to have very "interesting" gameplay systems. Sounds like... Demon's Souls!

Word on the street is that Sony signed a first look deal if developer From Software made a sequel. The game is a PS3 exclusive and Sony Computer Entertainment published the title in Japan. Apparently, From Software was relentless in its refusal to bend to Sony's suggestions to change game play, save system and make the title easier. Rumor has it that nobody thought the game was going to be the sleeper hit it eventually became, which is why Atlus, not Sony, distributed the game in North America.

patsu

13-Feb-2010, 01:49

Demon's Souls going both black and white world tendency this weekend:
http://www.siliconera.com/2010/02/12/demons-souls-world-tendency-fades-to-white-then-black/

Pure white world tendency starts today and goes until Tuesday, February 16. Pure black world tendency starts on Wednesday and runs until the week ends. When the world is pure white new paths open up and healing items are more common. Black phantoms and primeval demons carrying precious colorless demon’s souls show up when the world turns black.

Yemeth

13-Feb-2010, 13:58

patsu, thanks alot for keeping us all up to date. I do not read all those gaming portals, so I take your hard work and just read this thread ;) .

patsu

13-Feb-2010, 17:47

I post because tha_con is slogging through it right now. Always a pleasure to help a lone adventurer build up his gears.

N_B

14-Feb-2010, 20:33

:o I would have missed this event if I hadn't looked here. Thanks patsu!

patsu

15-Feb-2010, 19:26

Yeah, I am super glad you guys bought the game so I can have Demon's Souls *TWO*. That will be my reward. ^_^

london-boy

16-Feb-2010, 16:31

After all i've read, the idea of buying this game scares me. is that normal?

nightshade

16-Feb-2010, 16:32

After all i've read, the idea of buying this game scares me. is that normal?
I would say so...got me scared too :P
But I think if I can manage with a difficulty like Ninja Gaiden's higher levels then this shouldn't be any harder to get used to after a while.

patsu

16-Feb-2010, 17:03

After all i've read, the idea of buying this game scares me. is that normal?

Yes. ^_^

I was scared too. The difficulty is overrated. Some see it as a horror/scary game because it can be nerve wrecking to play at times (when invaded for the first time).

The game requires full attention and patience to prevail. But the experience is special because the game design is unique. If you like RPG, I'd say at least give it a try (rent, borrow, buy, whatever !).

I have seen people take a few hours to warm up to the game (after completing Stage 1). If you play as a Royal class, then the game is not difficult because you can usually cheese your way out. The game has one of the most unique multiplayer gameplay to date. It's weaved into the single player experience, so you feel other gamers' companionship in a lonely way. ;-)

patsu

15-Mar-2010, 05:01

http://www.1up.com/do/blogEntry?bId=9023027

Perhaps there's some irony in the fact that the most insightful speaker at the panel was in attendance as a Sony representative. Yeonkyung Kim plays a prominent role in the company's Japanese studio, working as a sort of international liaison for localization and licensing, and had had a number of great insights to offer regarding his experiences there. By far the most significant of these was Kim's admission that, despite great strides companies like Sony has made over the past decade in the art of localization, it's far from a perfect process. As an example, he touched on last year's surprise sleeper RPG hit, Demon's Souls. The From-developed dungeon crawler was expected to be a tiny niche project, with initial shipments of 15,000 copies. Yet it became a breakout through word-of-mouth, with current sales closing in on a quarter of a million.

patsu

16-Mar-2010, 00:06

http://www.siliconera.com/2010/03/15/demons-souls-does-well-atlus-swimming-in-profit/

Atlus posted huge gains. Thanks to their North American branch, Atlus USA, the publisher made 378 million yen (roughly $4.15 million) in operating profit for the first half of their fiscal year. The figure is up 236.1% compared to the same period last year.

In the previous quarter alone, Atlus USA raked in 346 million yen ($3.81 million) in operating profit, which was a 578.5% increase compared to last year. Strong overseas sales of Shin Megami Tensei: Persona, 101-in-1 Party Megamix, and Demon’s Souls were attributed to growth.

Scott_Arm

16-Mar-2010, 00:08

Akumajou

17-Mar-2010, 00:50

One thing I'd love to see in a sequel is a truer co-op feature on top of what they already have. Playing through the whole game with a friend would be awesome. Fending off player invasions as a team and such would be so cool.

That also sounds like a completely different game altogether.

Demon Souls is supposed to be about player skills and how long you can survive with no auto regenerating health, you would be surprised at some players capabilities.

Scott_Arm

17-Mar-2010, 01:26

That also sounds like a completely different game altogether.

Demon Souls is supposed to be about player skills and how long you can survive with no auto regenerating health, you would be surprised at some players capabilities.

Just make it exactly the same, but have two people. It would be awesome.

patsu

17-Mar-2010, 01:41

Gah, you can already do that in Demon's Souls today.

I think what you want is a party system for Demon's Souls.

Scott_Arm

17-Mar-2010, 01:48

Gah, you can already do that in Demon's Souls today.

I think what you want is a party system for Demon's Souls.

I want true co-op. I want to play start to finish with a friend. Whatever you want to call that, you can't do it right now.

patsu

17-Mar-2010, 01:50

Yes, you have to coordinate the blue stone dropping via a cell or IM or XMB messages today.

Yemeth

18-Mar-2010, 00:25

I want the new Demon's Souls have automatic timezone (maybe using the patented ApocalyPS3 technology) adjusting, so that I can play with patsu without staying up until 4AM or vice versa. Ok, they would just need to send the netcode back or forth in time, but I do not see that as an big hurdle. :D

Seriously, I mostly hope the designers will NOT listen to Sony et al, but do their own thing. If they would've listened to others, we would probably have an God Of War clone with a Lady Ga Ga soundtrack in the original game.

After playing the original the other day, I can surely say that I currently do not have the patience to play it. But I would love to unlock the last few things I have not seen. It is very interesting how you need a specific mindset to play it, an absolute difference to the "let's play game Y for half an hour".

In my opinion, nowadays, there are too many non artistic people trying to feel the pulse what is wanted (it is always needed, but there needs to be an equilibrium). Because they did their own thing it became so great, not because they tried to copy the latest fad. IMO, they should just use the same approach for the second game.

What I hate, though, is that Sony will probably release the sequel even though Atlus did all the work for making the name "Demon's Souls" well known (of course From Software were taking the most of the risk).

Cheers...

Akumajou

18-Mar-2010, 19:08

I want true co-op. I want to play start to finish with a friend. Whatever you want to call that, you can't do it right now.

Like I said, that would be a completely different game, I'm not saying its not possible but you have to give the developers some credit, it takes years for a game developer to work on a game only it have it ridiculed as lacking a desired feature instead of what the game offers.

Its a survival skills based game, adding an additional player that can constantly communicate in coop like an XBox like game that you keep implying about would add layers of complexity to the way the gameplay would work and would create more problems and would not really make the game better.

My personal opinion is that such a co-op reprogrammed game would need a complete reprogramming of the video game engine by using the latest development tools, it would also require alot more time to program as well as developer experience in actually trying it out, then again if something was available like that certain people would bemoan the lack of more "features" while ignoring what the game already offers.

I don't wan't to make this comparison but R-Type and R-Type 2 were survival/skills based game where you as a player would develop your skills to the point of mastering the game in a (pun intended) godly fashion, Irem later made an R-Type game called R-Type Leo that added co-op play but even though it was technically and graphically superior as a 2d shooter, the game experienced was cheapened because the challenge the game posed could be taken for granted and quickly conquered.

Akumajou

18-Mar-2010, 19:17

What I hate, though, is that Sony will probably release the sequel even though Atlus did all the work for making the name "Demon's Souls" well known (of course From Software were taking the most of the risk).

Cheers...

Atlus was only involved in the non-Japanese version of the game, From Software did all of the ACTUAL work already.

So far there is a love hate phenomenon going on with the game with crictics bemoaning a multiplayer feature (as expected since gamers take video game development for granted these days) Sony did not publish this game pehaps for the same reason Sega chose not to publish Virtual On Oratorio Tangram in fear of flopping sales and criticisims.

In Japan a videogame like this would be appreciated for its depth but in the USA it would get crucified for being too hard my mainstream critics.

Alot of the people I know love the game for what it is and what it offers and whats funny is that alot of them prefer multiplayer games but something about Demon Souls is keeping them playing.

patsu

18-Mar-2010, 19:45

Demon's Souls is a proper multiplayer game. It doesn't overuse the multiplayer aspect because the developers know exactly what they want from the network experience. The network experience is completely tailored to DS's needs there. There is very little (or no) commodity/external online mechanisms in the game. They are all well-hidden and embedded.

I don't mind adding a party system for close friends to co-op, but I want the original "lonely multiplayer" experience enforced or promoted first. A friendly co-op Demon's Souls loses some of its original charm.

Rolf N

21-Mar-2010, 16:54

In Japan a videogame like this would be appreciated for its depth but in the USA it would get crucified for being too hard my mainstream critics.I think the difficulty of the game was way oversold, to the extent that it probably hurt the game. Death in Demon's Souls is not the equivalent of a game over in other RPGs. It doesn't consume all your progress. You keep the loot, you keep the shortcuts, and you have a shot at recovering even the unspent souls from your bloodstain. The game is designed and balanced around the death mechanic, to keep you motivated even across moments of failure. And then it's doubly rewarding when you finally do beat a section.

But since it was sold as this brutally difficult game, some of the applicable audience never bothered. You have high-profile journos such as Jeff Gerstmann refusing to even give the game a try, because they expect it to be pure punishment.

patsu

15-Apr-2010, 20:59

Demon's Souls Does Europe:
http://www.siliconera.com/2010/04/14/you-wont-believe-who-is-bringing-demons-souls-to-europe/

...via Namco-Bandai

patsu

16-Apr-2010, 09:36

Ha ha, only limited edition for EU gamers:
http://www.siliconera.com/2010/04/16/demons-souls-only-available-as-a-limited-edition-in-europe/

Namco Bandai’s European arm officially announced Demon’s Souls today and their exclusive limited edition retail pack. This bundle contains Demon’s Souls, a soundtrack CD, a hardcover artbook, and strategy guide. Europe’s Demon’s Souls bundle appears similar to the “Stop Importing It” edition Atlus released last year. However, Namco Bandai promises a new artbook and strategy guide.

nightshade

16-Apr-2010, 09:39

Think now would be a good time for me to buy the game.

*Looks at upcoming SSF4 & FF13's disc*

:???:

Cornsnake

16-Apr-2010, 18:15

Well it's about time they release it over here. Is this game really that good?

patsu

16-Apr-2010, 19:27

Yes ! But I don't want to overhype it.
YES !!!! if you like old school RPG games.

It may not have some of the elaborate features (e.g., complex dialog tree), but the core gameplay is refreshing. The lock-on mechanics takes some getting used to. And you need to pay total attention when playing the game.

In a related news:
http://www.siliconera.com/2010/04/14/demons-souls-sells-triple-what-atlus-usa-expected/

Atlus USA had a modest goal of 35,000 for Shin Megami Tensei: Persona. The remastered PSP game sold 49,000 units in North America. Good, but not quite Demon’s Souls. Atlus planned to sell 75,000 copies of Demon’s Souls in North America. The critically acclaimed game surpassed three times that number with 280,000 units in sales by the end of their second fiscal quarter, February 28, 2010.

EDIT: Kotaku has a picture of the EU's "Black Phantom" edition:
http://kotaku.com/5518585/demons-souls-coming-to-europe-in-a-lovely-big-box

EDIT 2: Think now would be a good time for me to buy the game.

*Looks at upcoming SSF4 & FF13's disc*

:???:

Should try FFXIII before Demon's Souls. Otherwise, you may give up FFXIII early. :-P

london-boy

19-Apr-2010, 12:47

Wow, Demon Souls (new release) is at #1 on Amazon.co.uk's future releases, on any platform. Shocking what word of mouth can achieve.

nightshade

19-Apr-2010, 12:57

Should try FFXIII before Demon's Souls. Otherwise, you may give up FFXIII early. :-P
I'm too far in the game to give up & I certainly won't allow myself to give up the experience of Gran Pulse <3 ..in favor of Dungeon crawling :p

patsu

19-Apr-2010, 17:11

Gran Pulse vs Boletaria ? [Personal thoughts removed]

You play them in the right order. When you're done with Gran Pulse, go to Boletaria right away and enjoy the stark difference.

I am interested to see your response. :-P

patsu

01-May-2010, 00:54

This one is simple:

Amazon offering Demon's Souls for $33 with a free $10 gift card:
http://playstation.joystiq.com/2010/04/30/amazon-offering-demons-souls-for-33-with-a-free-10-gift-card/

Comstedt

08-May-2010, 08:28

Abit too late on the EU release for me :). Haven't played this in a while, a friend burrowed it from me :(. Anyone know anything about a sequel? I would love to see another DS!

patsu

08-May-2010, 15:52

http://kotaku.com/5468419/demons-souls-2-hints

As web forum NeoGAF points out, a podcast from Japanese gaming news source Dengeki hints that a sequel for a challenging and hard game released last year would be coming out this fall. The game is said to have very "interesting" gameplay systems. Sounds like... Demon's Souls!

This is not official confirmation, however. It is from Dengeki, would could be hinting as information it has under embargo or something.

Word on the street is that Sony signed a first look deal if developer From Software made a sequel.

...

patsu

04-Jun-2010, 18:57

http://www.joystiq.com/2010/06/04/a-frustratingly-good-deal-on-demons-souls/

If you've got $30, a PlayStation 3 and an overabundance of supernatural, zen-like patience, you seem like a perfect candidate for a deal which recently cropped up on Amazon. Atlus's notoriously punishing action-RPG Demon's Souls is now only $29.99 through the retailer. If you prefer going to stores, or buying from a different website, you can get it for the same price from GameStop.

Cornsnake

25-Jun-2010, 18:50

Gradthrawn

25-Jun-2010, 18:52

My god this is a difficult game to get a hold off. No gamestore close to me have it, or has any plans to ever sell it. And none of the mayor online stores have it either. I finally found it on a site I've never used before. I've never had this much trouble finding some obscure japanese videogame before.

What region?

Amazon US Listing (http://www.amazon.com/Demons-Souls-Playstation-3/dp/B002AB7TX8/ref=sr_1_1?s=videogames&ie=UTF8&qid=1277488081&sr=1-1). Currently in stock.

Cornsnake

25-Jun-2010, 19:19

What region?

Amazon US Listing (http://www.amazon.com/Demons-Souls-Playstation-3/dp/B002AB7TX8/ref=sr_1_1?s=videogames&ie=UTF8&qid=1277488081&sr=1-1). Currently in stock.

The Netherlands. I have it ordered now. I should have it on the 29th.

patsu

25-Jun-2010, 19:30

May be they only have a small run in EU. It's handled by Namco Bandai.

My friend who bought a PS3 2 weeks ago also purchased Demon's Souls and 3D Dot Heroes right away. He was afraid they go out of print. :lol:

I think Atlus has enough DS copies out there so that more people get to enjoy it. I see it in my GameStop.

Akumajou

27-Jun-2010, 00:36

Abit too late on the EU release for me :). Haven't played this in a while, a friend burrowed it from me :(. Anyone know anything about a sequel? I would love to see another DS!

Sadly unless the game generates suficient sales and interest in either Japan or elsewhere we won't know until TGS2010 or an official announcement.
I think Sony Japan had faith in this game and what from software was able to do but outside of that with all the harsh criticisim PS3 has gotten in the US Atlus took the job.
So far I am not aware other than reviews of how coverage for this game has been in print magazine (where halo and gears get multiple cover stories under a years worth of magazine and websites are rather fickle, Demon Souls has a strong presence in online forums and its funny in an age where most widely covered and hyped games have regenerating health.

I think the difficulty of the game was way oversold, to the extent that it probably hurt the game. Death in Demon's Souls is not the equivalent of a game over in other RPGs. It doesn't consume all your progress. You keep the loot, you keep the shortcuts, and you have a shot at recovering even the unspent souls from your bloodstain. The game is designed and balanced around the death mechanic, to keep you motivated even across moments of failure. And then it's doubly rewarding when you finally do beat a section.

But since it was sold as this brutally difficult game, some of the applicable audience never bothered. You have high-profile journos such as Jeff Gerstmann refusing to even give the game a try, because they expect it to be pure punishment.

I don't think the game was marketed as hard, game review sites and magazines did that in a current game culture with too many checkpoints, regenerating health and ridiculous game play being hyped or marketed as skills based gameplay.

I still remember the days of people playing Ghouls and Ghosts twice through to completion with one quater, as well as well as R-Type and others, hell I played and beat in hard a game called kidou senshi gundam iichinen sensou ps2 a rather herculean task.

Gamers have been pointing out that some games are too easy and if they are hard they are unfair a lot of them have ridiculous gameplay.

However as you said if some game media refuses to cover the game it might as well not exist unless you walk into a game shop and find it on the shelves and question the employees.

The other sad criticisim is the call to make all games include a uniform online multiplayer or crucify a game if it does not have it unless there is bias agenda like a mediocre game that sold 7 million because the assasin had hidden claws and an attractive female was associated with making the game instead of the hairy pasty and obesse guy who created it, at least for them sequels are financed and guarranteed