Will Fallout 3 have same DRM as Oblivion?

[Richard]

Saw on Teh Shack (http://www.shacknews.com/featuredarticle.x?id=1012) an interview with bethesda where they discuss F3 and its DRM.

Shack: Similar question in the sense that it's an issue that can be overblown. What kind of copy protection will be included on the PC version of Fallout 3?


Pete Hines: Pretty similar to what we did for Oblivion, which was--we basically don't do any--we do the mildest form possible. I actually don't know if I even want to get into what it is that we exactly do, but we try to be really noninvasive when it comes to that stuff. [ed- Oblivion employed a simple DVD check.]

And it is a pain in the ass--it is a pain in the ass that we have to do it at all in the first place. But when you spend tens of millions of dollars, we don't think it's right to just put something out there and let everybody do whatever they want and pass it around.

And to have to support all of that--which is often the unspoken thing that nobody really wants to point to. You can argue all day whether or not somebody would have bought a copy of a game they pirated, but you can't argue, and you will never win the argument that I'm not having to provide tech support for those folks. Because I know for a fact that we are. We catch those folks all the time, where we're providing support for somebody who turns out didn't actually pay for the game and just downloaded a copy.

Please do read the full article as the following answer does somewhat contradict the above wrt installation limits. Anyway, if they do go the Oblivion route I think it's refreshing that a big dev doesn't feel the need to burden legit customers (too much) with DRM just to make a buck. God knows I have issues with Oblivion gameplay but as long as the games are reasonably good I'll be supporting developers that opt for the smallest DRM intrusion possible.

[Davros]

What was that about privacy killing pc gaming again ?

"The Xbox 360 version of Bethesda’s Fallout 3 is already available for illegal download on torrent sites, three weeks before the game’s scheduled release."

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=20598

[obonicus]

What was that about privacy killing pc gaming again ?

"The Xbox 360 version of Bethesda’s Fallout 3 is already available for illegal download on torrent sites, three weeks before the game’s scheduled release."

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=20598

PC version is out too, last I heard. Question is how they'll perform in sales. If the 360's sales are low, you'll certainly have a point.

[knitecrow]

Question is, what proportion of console gamers vs PC gamers pirate games? Xbox 360 will outsell the pc version by a wide version, its a no brainer.

I don't see the big problem with DRM. If I had a say, I would make the Fallout 3 only available for download online (through steam or some other distribution) and the require an active broadband connection that constantly authenticates to a secure server.

[Davros]

and i'll laugh at you when they finally turn off the server :D

[pcchen]

Why? When they turned off the server, they'll mostly provide a non-DRM version, or there will be a non-DRM version around.

Also, the leaked Xbox 360 version is not likely to have much effect, because there are not really that much modded Xbox 360 out there.

[Richard]

Why? When they turned off the server, they'll mostly provide a non-DRM version, or there will be a non-DRM version around.

Well, if the recent examples of Microsoft (http://www.betanews.com/article/Microsoft_to_end_support_for_MSN_Music_DRM/1208977773), Yahoo (http://www.betanews.com/article/The_danger_of_DRM_Yahoo_will_remove_keys_for_autho rizing_music_playback/1216933339) and Wall-Mart (http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/15520.cfm) are any indication then no.

In these examples you can always burn to CD and re-rip but no such thing is possible for games.

[pcchen]

In these examples you can always burn to CD and re-rip but no such thing is possible for games.

I thought most DRM-ed games are cracked?
And to my understanding it's legal under DMCA to "crack" a game in order to run it when there's no other alternative (i.e. authentication servers are no longer maintained).
And no, I don't think DMCA is a good law. It's a very bad law and should be abolished.

[Richard]

I thought most DRM-ed games are cracked?

Doesn't make it legal though.

EDIT: What I meant by this is: if you're relying on an illegal program to play a game in the future why not use that illegal program now to play that same game? Once you accept this and you hunt down the dodgy site that has that illegal program why not click on the other link in the same page and download the entire game instead? 5Mb or 5Gb it's just extra traffic.

And to my understanding it's legal under DMCA to "crack" a game in order to run it when there's no other alternative (i.e. authentication servers are no longer maintained).

You can only (legally) circumvent DMCA-protected works if there's an exemption for your particular case. The exemptions have a 3-year lifespan afterwhich they can be renewed or not so even if you can do it now you can't be sure it will be legal in the future. Anyway, Wikipedia tells me that the following exemptions are valid now (pasting only the ones relevant to video games):

Computer programs and video games distributed in formats that have become obsolete and that require the original media or hardware as a condition of access, when circumvention is accomplished for the purpose of preservation or archival reproduction of published digital works by a library or archive. A format shall be considered obsolete if the machine or system necessary to render perceptible a work stored in that format is no longer manufactured or is no longer reasonably available in the commercial marketplace. (A renewed exemption, first approved in 2003.)

Computer programs protected by dongles that prevent access due to malfunction or damage and which are obsolete. A dongle shall be considered obsolete if it is no longer manufactured or if a replacement or repair is no longer reasonably available in the commercial marketplace. (Revised from a similar exemption approved in 2003.)

Neither one seems to apply to this situation because playing a game does not have the "purpose of preservation or archival reproduction" and DRM-authentication server (for instance) isn't a dongle that malfunctioned or was damaged. Unless you step on the dongle that came with your copy of AutoCAD or you're building a Video Game Museum (http://news.spong.com/article/16299/National_Video_Game_Museum_Opening_-_At_Last?cb=864) then these two exeptions don't apply.

The other noteworthy thing is that while it's legal to circunvent DMCA-protected works in these exemptions, it's not clear whether it's legal to distribute tools/software designed to circunvent it (even specifically for those cases where circunvention is allowed). So you can crack your game whose authentication server is gone if some clever lawyer is able to argue that somehow falls in either of those exemptions, but unless you know disassembly it may be (legally) impossible to do so.