Neverending Upscaling/Resolutions/AA etc Thread #3 (Rules Post #1!)

[Shifty Geezer]

Time for a thread refresh! (45nm FTW)

The purpose of this thread is to identify and discuss the rendering techniques being used in games, such as rendering at lower resolutions and upscaling, or how much AA is being applied. By its nature there is a comparative element between consoles, but this is not a place to wage 'Console War'. It is also not the place to discuss the hardware decisions, or to review games.

Please keep on topic!

It's very easy to get sidetracked, but if you want to discuss a particular element that's been raised which isn't directly about the topic, please create a new thread in the appropriate forum. Expect off-topic posts to get axed rather than moved.

As a final point, this is the Technology Forum which has a different ideal the conventional forums. You need to wear a suit and tie to post here, to keep out the 'funnies', and to focus your words on who's doing what in their software and why.

The list of known game resolutions is here (http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=46241).

[AlphaWolf]

Thread 1
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=43330
Thread 2
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=46242

[I.S.T.]

45nm FTW

:lol:

Has Soulcalibur 4's resolution been determined? I don't recall if it has or not.

[Dominik D]

720p, no AA (pages 50-51, I don't think that Quaz is the source though).

[Gitaroo]

I asked Quaz to check awhile back when Dark Vader and Yoda were annouced, both version are 720p and no AA. Vader shots being the PS3 version and Yoda for 360. :grin:

[Cheezdoodles]

720p, no AA (pages 50-51, I don't think that Quaz is the source though).

No AA everybody can see for themselves on screen

[zarbaj]

is it possible determine NG2 res. from this 10 minutes of the game video:

http://www.gamersyde.com/news_6534_en.html

thanks again for your hard work, quaz.

[Dominik D]

@Ostepop: I was referring to the overal info, not AA itself. Some people however seem to see AA on those screens - SC4 discussion on pages 50-51 started after someone asking if he's right that SC4 has 4xAA. ;-)

@zarbaj: To continue obliteration... It's been stated several times that compressed videos are not the best reference and it's better to wait for screen caps (I'm sure there are some already).

[zarbaj]

TeamNinja shots are all oversampled.

[catisfit]

my NG2 question got obliterated lol.

here it is again:

is it possible determine NG2 res. from this 10 minutes of the game video:

http://www.gamersyde.com/news_6534_en.html

thanks again for your hard work, quaz.

I just found a 1080p NG2 screenshot and it's upscaled 720p.

[AlStrong]

@zarbaj: To continue obliteration... It's been stated several times that compressed videos are not the best reference and it's better to wait for screen caps (I'm sure there are some already).


Indeed!

FWIW, even in the videos, I can still see a number of jaggies where there is sufficient contrasting edges. Considering that there doesn't appear to be a leap in graphics technology in the game itself, I'm a bit perplexed why they couldn't go with tiling.

[Dominik D]

To get stable (or "stable") 60FPS?

[AlStrong]

I can't imagine it takes that much frame time out of 16ms. :???: I'll buy the stability argument if there are much more intense scenes later on.

[zarbaj]

http://www.geekpulp.co.nz/2008/05/26/ninja-gaiden-2-review-xbox-360/

The frame-rate is also choppy in parts. When a lot of enemies are on screen or lots of explosions are occurring there seems to be a noticeable slowdown that didn’t bother me until one particular mission that involved near on one hundred enemies on screen in combat against Ryu at the same time.

[Juan Panson]

Home screens.

Mod Note: A single link to the gallery will suffice. -AlS

http://ve3d.ign.com/articles/news/38896/PlayStation-Home-Screenshots

[Josh]

Does anyone know the resolution of Dragon Ball Z: Burst Limit (http://media.ps3.ign.com/media/142/14224980/imgs_1.html)?

Or Naruto: Ultimate Ninja Storm (http://media.ps3.ign.com/media/965/965454/imgs_1.html)? At least with the Naruto game, the newest screenshots seem to display more aliasing than the older ones...

[AlStrong]

Compressed screenshots are about as bad as compressed videos for determining in-game resolution/AA. Read: One can never be too trusting of media released from the game companies. It's best to wait for a demo or the retail game.

[zarbaj]

Compressed screenshots are about as bad as compressed videos for determining in-game resolution/AA. Read: One can never be too trusting of media released from the game companies. It's best to wait for a demo or the retail game.

you are 100% right though Quaz already determined some games like that, he's just that badass.

[Cheezdoodles]

@Ostepop: I was referring to the overal info, not AA itself. Some people however seem to see AA on those screens - SC4 discussion on pages 50-51 started after someone asking if he's right that SC4 has 4xAA. ;-)


some people are blind.... There was no AA at all in any picture, just some blur filter.

[DJ12]

Some Farcry 2 "screenshots" for PS3 have been released from a pre-ubiday event.

http://ps3.vggen.com/gallery.php?game=3910 (http://ps3.vggen.com/image.php?game=3910&image=ps3/farcry2/farcry2_20.jpg)

[FirewalkR]

To Quaz51:

These screenshots of Bioshock were apparently released today with the official Bioshock PS3 press release. Can you check for resolution and if indeed these are from the PS3 version? (well, or at least if they were rendered in an Nvidia gpu :lol:)

http://www.gamed.nl/messages/74505.jpg
http://www.gamed.nl/messages/74506.jpg

In case direct linking doesn't work, here's the news url: http://www.gamed.nl/view/41364 (thx to Joni @ GAF)

Thx :)

[Butta]

Some Farcry 2 "screenshots" for PS3 have been released from a pre-ubiday event.

http://ps3.vggen.com/gallery.php?game=3910 (http://ps3.vggen.com/image.php?game=3910&image=ps3/farcry2/farcry2_20.jpg)

Wow... looks good. Bullshot?

[FirewalkR]

Wow... looks good. Bullshot?

Totally, I'm afraid!

Huh?

Well, iirc, Quaz can distinguish easily between 360 and PS3 renders due to certain differences in the rendering process which arise, I believe, due to the fact that one has an ATI gpu and the other has an Nvidia. Since quite some time ago, even before we got to "next-gen", I remember seeing image quality comparisons between ATI and Nvidia cards where the same differences in the rendering were mentioned, I assume we can pretty much know whether something was rendered in either of these gpu families, but not necessarily if it was rendered in a console gpu.

[Quaz51]

To Quaz51:

These screenshots of Bioshock were apparently released today with the official Bioshock PS3 press release. Can you check for resolution and if indeed these are from the PS3 version? (well, or at least if they were rendered in an Nvidia gpu :lol:)

http://www.gamed.nl/messages/74505.jpg
http://www.gamed.nl/messages/74506.jpg

In case direct linking doesn't work, here's the news url: http://www.gamed.nl/view/41364 (thx to Joni @ GAF)

Thx :)


apparently 1280x720

[FirewalkR]

apparently 1280x720

And these aren't from the 360?

(screenshot wars coming in the next months... :lol:)

[Dominik D]

apparently 1280x720
Are you sure? Horizontal resolution seems to be 1152 (9 steps within 10 pixels).

[Quaz51]

Horizontal resolution seems to be 1152 (9 steps within 10 pixels).

not for me, the first is clearly 720p screenshots (but maybe X360 screenshots)

[Dominik D]

I'm not arguing against vertical resolution. :) I'm arguing about horizontal one:
http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/8005/vertkn5.jpg
Unless (once again) I'm counting it wrong.

[Quaz51]

I'm not arguing against vertical resolution. :) I'm arguing about horizontal one:
http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/8005/vertkn5.jpg
Unless (once again) I'm counting it wrong.

yes your counting is wrong

and globally it's not just counting, it's also make good choice of beginning and end step or look the aparence and evolution of step. for exemple a half transparent/blurry step is like a 1/2 step
if you count 1 step per pixel but the step evolution aspect is successively little more pale/transparent (not just punctuel but evolving) it indicate an upscaling. if you start on a perfect opaque step and finish on a tenth step half transparent, it's not 10 step counting but 10.5 step, it's an indication but the best is to start and finish counting on a step with the same opaque/trasparent/blurry aparence, not compulsorily perfectly sharp steps but at least perfectly similar aspect step
in all case it's necessary to judge the apparence of step, not just counting

but in this case no difficulty, just wrong counting
all steps are the same ratio of blurry aspect with no evolution and 1 pixel par step, it's 1280, not useful to count

[Shifty Geezer]

all steps are the same ratio of blurry aspect with no evolution and 1 pixel par step, it's 1280, not useful to countSo a blur filter is in effect.

[zarbaj]

http://www.gamersyde.com/news_6564_en.html

they are from the ps3 build it seems.

[FirewalkR]

http://www.gamersyde.com/news_6564_en.html

they are from the ps3 build it seems.

Well, they sent the pictures along with the press release.

Maybe Quaz can check the gamersyde pictures, they're much less compressed.

Edit:

Also, images and trailer of Beyond Good & Evil 2 here http://www.gamersyde.com/news_6556_en.html. The pictures are in 1080p but seems like, perhaps, photo mode of in-game engine.

Trailer is awesome.

[catisfit]

I'm not arguing against vertical resolution. :) I'm arguing about horizontal one:
http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/8005/vertkn5.jpg
Unless (once again) I'm counting it wrong.

If you take the step which is half off the top of your image as the first step (step 0), then you can count 10 steps where the 10th step is the one half off the bottom of the image.

Therefore your two red lines correspond with the the start step (step 0) and the 10th step away from it (step 10) exactly.

So count the pixels from step 0 (but not including it) to step 10 (including it), which in that image you'll find is 10 pixels. (The same as your yellow checker, but I count it with one less pixel on the left and one more on the right - it doesn't really matter as long as you include one end and not the other in this method).

So 10 steps in 10 pixels is 1:1. Hope that helps.

[Dominik D]

Yeah, you're right although I think it's easier to understand it by moving the left red line one pixel right (which leads to 9:9). At least it is easier to me as it seems you count edges where I find it easier to count corners. So it's harder for me to visualize level 0. It's the exact opposite mistake to the one I did in the past where I counted pixels properly, but I counted one step more in. There are at least two more classes of mistakes I can make in the future, so stay tuned! ;)

Thanks guys. :)

[Juan Panson]

any word on the home screens?

[Quaz51]

any word on the home screens?

1280x720 AAx2 with quincunx

[grandmaster]

Interesting as the early Home beta I saw last year was definitely 1080p with no AA.

[Quaz51]

Interesting as the early Home beta I saw last year was definitely 1080p with no AA.

home beta in 1080p? i doubt but it's interesting

["Nerve-Damage"]

Interesting as the early Home beta I saw last year was definitely 1080p with no AA.

home beta in 1080p? i doubt but it's interesting


Which version of Home would be more taxing on the PS3 system, 1080p/-AA or 720p/2AA/Q?

[Shifty Geezer]

1080p. You have far more pixels to shade. This is why 720p games are common, and 1080p games aren't ;)

[Arwin]

I played a retail version of the PS3 version of GRID in a store today, and it looked a lot smoother than the demo BUT it also looked fishy. It could be the TV (which wasn't very good quality I think), but it reminded me more of an upscaled game than any kind of (lack of) AA I could think of. There was also dithering going on though, so that speaks against it. I think that's the typical 'other' way of dealing with transparancy that we see alternating on 360 and PS3. Hope that someone can check out the game with proper screenshots soon.

[Jesus2006]

More FarCry 2 shots. Any hints?

http://www.gfdata.de/archiv05-2008-gamefront/3809.html

[Shifty Geezer]

There was also dithering going on though.The dithering is present in theextra rendered features of the PS3 version, the self-shadowing and also in some reflective surfaces (cars). Revisit these PS3 (http://yoda.dip.jp/Game/Grid/Grid_04_PS3.png)and XB360 (http://yoda.dip.jp/Game/Grid/Grid_04_360.png)pics. Zoom in on the left tail and you'll see a huge degree of dithering on the PS3 version. And in the extra shadowing under the balcony on the right. This dithering remains a mystery!

More FarCry 2 shots. Any hints?
http://www.gfdata.de/archiv05-2008-gamefront/3809.htmlI don't have mertrics but it looks significantly upscaled. That jungle burning screeny wasn't an ideal test case! But a glance at the stepping around the flamer's gauge and the cycles of intensity within the secondary edge show...hang on! That's a 1920x1200 pic! We need native res pics for analysis, right? Sheesh!

["Nerve-Damage"]

1080p. You have far more pixels to shade. This is why 720p games are common, and 1080p games aren't ;)

Well I knew that...lol

What I was getting at; was the added fact of having 2xAA with quincunx at 720p. It would seem "to me" that those added IQ settings would be more taxing than 1080p/-AA on the PS3. But yes, 1080p does has far more pixels.....

[MJP]

Well I knew that...lol

What i was getting at was the added fact of having 2xAA with quincunx at 720p. It would seem "to me" that those added IQ settings would be more taxing than 1080p/-AA on the PS3. But yes, 1080p does has far more pixels.....

1080p has the added costs of memory usage, bandwidth, and running the pixel shader more times. 720p with 2x Quincunx has only the first two costs, and not the third (unless you're doing any sort of deferred techniques that require access to pixel sub-samples).

["Nerve-Damage"]

1080p has the added costs of memory usage, bandwidth, and running the pixel shader more times. 720p with 2x Quincunx has only the first two costs, and not the third (unless you're doing any sort of deferred techniques that require access to pixel sub-samples).

Thanks! :smile:

[thambos]

Does anyone know the resolution of Dragon Ball Z: Burst Limit (http://media.ps3.ign.com/media/142/14224980/imgs_1.html)?

Or Naruto: Ultimate Ninja Storm (http://media.ps3.ign.com/media/965/965454/imgs_1.html)? At least with the Naruto game, the newest screenshots seem to display more aliasing than the older ones...

I haven't run across any lossless shots of the PS3 Naruto game.

Though I did run across some PNG shots of the Dragon Ball Z Burst Limit game. I was trying to figure out the resolution myself; but I wouldn't trust my judgment, my eyes aren't that sharp.

Here they are, if anybody wants to give it a shot.

http://d.hatena.ne.jp/yoda-dip-jp/searchdiary?of=1&word=%2a%5bGame%20Compare%5d
http://www.google.com/language_tools
http://babelfish.yahoo.com

1
360 (http://yoda.dip.jp/Game/DBZBL/DBZBL_01_360.png)
PS3 (http://yoda.dip.jp/Game/DBZBL/DBZBL_01_PS3.png)

2
360 (http://yoda.dip.jp/Game/DBZBL/DBZBL_02_360.png)
PS3 (http://yoda.dip.jp/Game/DBZBL/DBZBL_02_PS3.png)

3
360 (http://yoda.dip.jp/Game/DBZBL/DBZBL_03_360.png)
PS3 (http://yoda.dip.jp/Game/DBZBL/DBZBL_03_PS3.png)

4
360 (http://yoda.dip.jp/Game/DBZBL/DBZBL_04_360.png)
PS3 (http://yoda.dip.jp/Game/DBZBL/DBZBL_04_PS3.png)

5
360 (http://yoda.dip.jp/Game/DBZBL/DBZBL_05_360.png)
PS3 (http://yoda.dip.jp/Game/DBZBL/DBZBL_05_PS3.png)

[Shifty Geezer]

Dragon Ball Z Burst Limit looks like 720p 0xAA and slight blur to me.

[Blade47167]

What I've played of the demo it seems the blur is mainly at distance and during cutscenes/fight opening. Looks pretty sharp when your fighters are up close throwing punches.

[Shifty Geezer]

By blur, I mean more 'soft focus'. There's a half-pixel overrun of the edges, at least in that screenshot linked to. The contrast still looks sharp.

[bagofsuck]

Any hints about Far Cry 2 resolution? here's a screen :

http://xbox360media.ign.com/xbox360/image/article/877/877238/far-cry-2--20080528115158381.jpg

["Nerve-Damage"]

Any hints about Far Cry 2 resolution? here's a screen :

http://xbox360media.ign.com/xbox360/image/article/877/877238/far-cry-2--20080528115158381.jpg

Looks like a non-bullshot at 1280x720 with lots of aliasing going on.

[Quaz51]

Any hints about Far Cry 2 resolution? here's a screen :

http://xbox360media.ign.com/xbox360/image/article/877/877238/far-cry-2--20080528115158381.jpg

probably PC screenshot, it's a hires screenshot downscaled in 1280x720

[zarbaj]

some NG2 shots:

http://i25.tinypic.com/dcspix.jpg
http://i32.tinypic.com/2wcpoib.jpg
http://i32.tinypic.com/2gvtq0x.jpg
http://i26.tinypic.com/2cgo70g.jpg

source:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11384724&postcount=879
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11388774&postcount=985
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11389548&postcount=1015

i dunno if there are direct grabs or not but they are way too dark for some reason.

edit:

3 shots from a japanese imageboard:

http://i32.tinypic.com/6pvjmt.jpg
http://i32.tinypic.com/nexshl.jpg
http://i27.tinypic.com/2a8q3bt.jpg

[Statix]

Quaz, there's a 720p video of Far Cry 2 showing both the XB360 and PS3 versions, right here (http://www.gametrailers.com/player/34591.html?type=mov), if you want to take a crack at it. Although the quality and level of compression doesn't appear to be that great/sharp, so I don't know how analyzable the footage is.

[scarslasher]

home beta in 1080p? i doubt but it's interesting

1080p support for Home returned in v0.8.3 (it was taken away in a previous update). It was one of the headlines of the update. So far, all we've seen are 720p shots, though. In fact, 720p seems preferred (probably because 99% of the time, it looks nicer and fits onto most users screens easier than 1080p shots do.).

[chris100]

More NG2 demo shots
http://yoda.dip.jp/Game/Xbox360/Ninjaga2_02.png
http://yoda.dip.jp/Game/Xbox360/Ninjaga2_03.png
http://yoda.dip.jp/Game/Xbox360/Ninjaga2_01.png

[AlStrong]

More NG2 demo shots
http://yoda.dip.jp/Game/Xbox360/Ninjaga2_02.png
http://yoda.dip.jp/Game/Xbox360/Ninjaga2_03.png
http://yoda.dip.jp/Game/Xbox360/Ninjaga2_01.png

Can you get images with higher contrasting objects? The overall darkness of the level is making things difficult. :???:

[Quaz51]

More NG2 demo shots
http://yoda.dip.jp/Game/Xbox360/Ninjaga2_02.png
http://yoda.dip.jp/Game/Xbox360/Ninjaga2_03.png
http://yoda.dip.jp/Game/Xbox360/Ninjaga2_01.png

interesting, it seem 585p 2xAA like Tony hawk
but need more good grab (or wait the next week for silver demo), particularly for horizontal resolution

[JaylumX]

More NG2 demo shots
http://yoda.dip.jp/Game/Xbox360/Ninjaga2_02.png
http://yoda.dip.jp/Game/Xbox360/Ninjaga2_03.png
http://yoda.dip.jp/Game/Xbox360/Ninjaga2_01.png

There's a demo :?: :shock:

[DrJay24]

There's a demo :?: :shock:

In Japan.

[zarbaj]

interesting, it seem 585p 2xAA like Tony hawk
but need more good grab (or wait the next week for silver demo), particularly for horizontal resolution

is there anything special about this particular resolution?

and btw, the japanese demo is region locked and the US/EU demo won't be out till the end of next week.

[Quaz51]

it seem 1120 for horizontal but need confirmation, there are not good screenshot for horizontal check. for vertical 585 it's relatively sure and reliable
1120x585 would be another type of anamorphic resolution, opposed to the other classic anamorphic 1024x600 use in some X360 (COD4, PGR3, Oblivion, TR...)
but there are little more pixel in 1120x585 than in 1024x600 and 1120x585 is the better use of the EDRAM space that i have seen. it's 9.998MiB, just a 2KiB residue unused. maybe it explain this choice

[zarbaj]

it seem 1120 for horizontal but need confirmation, there are not good screenshot for horizontal check. for vertical 585 it's relatively sure and reliable
1120x585 would be another type of anamorphic resolution, opposed to the other classic anamorphic 1024x600 use in some X360 (COD4, PGR3, Oblivion, TR...)
but there are little more pixel in 1120x585 than in 1024x600 and 1120x585 is the better use of the EDRAM space that i have seen. it's 9.998MiB, just a 2KiB residue unused. maybe it explain this choice

1120x585 makes total sense then if it's like you say.

did you check my post here: http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1168592&postcount=54

they might or might not help.


imo, NG2 is 2x faster than the first game/Sigma and DMC4 and there is these body parts that stay on the floor all the time and the blood trail.

Mod Note: NG2 discussion in the NG2 thread. This is a technical thread folks.

[Quaz51]

1120x585 makes total sense then if it's like you say.

did you check my post here: http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1168592&postcount=54

they might or might not help.

imo, NG2 is 2x faster than the first game/Sigma and DMC4 and there is these body parts that stay on the floor all the time and the blood trail.


2x framerate is a performence measure, 2x faster move not, it's just a gameplay choice

[zarbaj]

interesting.

i hope 1120x585 is true because 1040x585 is just lazy, no offense to anyone.

[AlStrong]

1120x585 is the better use of the EDRAM space that i have seen. it's 9.998MiB, just a 2KiB residue unused. maybe it explain this choice


Hm... indeed. That they chose a resolution that would *just* fit within the eDRAM seems to indicate (to me) that they are likely not pixel limited at all. At what points of the game does the frame rate drop consistently :?:

[zarbaj]

framedrops?

from what i have heard, it drops when casting ninpo (magic) i suspect it's like the first game, when casting ninpo it drops the framerate to 30fps.

in one of the reviews, it mentioned that the framerate drops when fighting 100 enemies at the same time.

[MazingerDUDE]

Quaz

this is a jpeg but I thought you could use it

http://pds9.egloos.com/pds/200805/31/79/c0005979_484019bac51f0.jpg

[AlStrong]

framedrops?

from what i have heard, it drops when casting ninpo (magic) i suspect it's like the first game, when casting ninpo it drops the framerate to 30fps.

in one of the reviews, it mentioned that the framerate drops when fighting 100 enemies at the same time.


Hm... during the ninpo sequences I'd reason that the drops occur because of half-speed blending rate, but I'm not entirely sure on that. It could just be some wacko decision to achieve a "cinematic" look. :p

On the latter point, it would appear that they are geometry limited (well, for 16ms frame time, mind you). The geometry re-processing cost for tiling would have been even more catastrophic. Just a guess, mind you. Would you happen to know what sort of enemies these are? (Big/regular/small - with respect to relative polygon count)

[yoda-dip-jp]

Konichiwa.

I added 2 screen shots. It may help you.
http://yoda.dip.jp/Game/Xbox360/Ninjaga2_04.png
http://yoda.dip.jp/Game/Xbox360/Ninjaga2_05.png

[chris100]

framedrops?

from what i have heard, it drops when casting ninpo (magic) i suspect it's like the first game, when casting ninpo it drops the framerate to 30fps.

in one of the reviews, it mentioned that the framerate drops when fighting 100 enemies at the same time.

The framerate is OK in retail version,very fluid.I won't say the framerate problem would be the major issue on NG2.

[AlStrong]

Konichiwa.

I added 2 screen shots. It may help you.
http://yoda.dip.jp/Game/Xbox360/Ninjaga2_04.png
http://yoda.dip.jp/Game/Xbox360/Ninjaga2_05.png

Thank you for dropping by. :)

[GKchikan]

Anyone cares to explain how does rendering in 1152x595 amount to 9.99MB?

Buffer 1120 x 595 x 4 (32bit) x 2 (MSAA)
Z Buffer 1280 x 720 x 4 (32bit)

???

[Blade47167]

Image 1 (http://fp.scea.com///Content/Movies/17290/Images/5/image.jpg)
Image 2 (http://fp.scea.com///Content/Movies/17290/Images/1/image.jpg)

Heres some new Naruto Screen shots...

[D3B]

I'm curious if Wii games are running at 480p,have any been checked yet?

[ngkane]

Hello guys.

How to make bullshot game producers ? (Example: 5120 x 700)

[Shifty Geezer]

Just set the engine to render at an extraordinary resolution to a file.

[Quaz51]

Hello guys.

How to make bullshot game producers ? (Example: 5120 x 700)


it work like photo mode in some game
for a 5120x2880 bullshot for exemple, the engine render sixteen 1280x720 frames with different camera parameter, downscale every frame in 320x180 and recompose the final 1280x720 frame with this sixteen little oversampled frame
at worst it just need an extra 3 or 4 MB of memory (but generally they use zero extra memory i think, just use front buffer for the compositing phase) in the console or devkit for make infinity resolution bullshot (the limit it's the time, a 5120x2880 bullshot with 30fps engine need an half second for create bullshot)

for preserved the hires native resolution (for press kit) they probably use the extra memory of the devkit for that (or maybe transfer in realtime all the multiple sub-frames in another support)

[zarbaj]

edit: nm :)

[Quaz51]

Konichiwa.

I added 2 screen shots. It may help you.
http://yoda.dip.jp/Game/Xbox360/Ninjaga2_04.png
http://yoda.dip.jp/Game/Xbox360/Ninjaga2_05.png

all screenshot confirm 585, it's sure
for 1120 it's more difficult but i haven't much doubt on this number
anyway 1120x585 is the max possible resolution of NG2 because EDRAM, if there are difference it will be less that this (in horyzontal) not more, but i don't think

[MazingerDUDE]

all screenshot confirm 585, it's sure
for 1120 it's more difficult but i haven't much doubt on this number

did you try this one?

http://pds9.egloos.com/pds/200805/31/79/c0005979_484019bac51f0.jpg

[Quaz51]

did you try this one?

http://pds9.egloos.com/pds/200805/31/79/c0005979_484019bac51f0.jpg

yes already check this (and other)

[Quaz51]

Anyone cares to explain how does rendering in 1152x595 amount to 9.99MB?

Buffer 1120 x 595 x 4 (32bit) x 2 (MSAA)
Z Buffer 1280 x 720 x 4 (32bit)

???


i say 1120x585 not 1152x595 or 1120x595
and Z-buffer is also 1120x585 of course

[MazingerDUDE]

picked up some more shots

http://pds9.egloos.com/pds/200805/31/79/c0005979_48401a2bc3884.jpg

http://pds9.egloos.com/pds/200805/31/79/c0005979_48401aedb2f40.jpg

http://pds7.egloos.com/pds/200805/31/79/c0005979_48401af69bc37.jpg

http://pds9.egloos.com/pds/200805/31/79/c0005979_48401b110ad40.jpg

http://pds7.egloos.com/pds/200805/31/79/c0005979_48401b19921b5.jpg

[yoda-dip-jp]

Thanks Quaz51.

My capture board (Intensity) can not capture in 1080p.
So, I captured 1080i. I think it is upscaled internally.
http://yoda.dip.jp/Game/Xbox360/Ninjaga2_06_1080i.png
http://yoda.dip.jp/Game/Xbox360/Ninjaga2_06_720p.png
http://yoda.dip.jp/Game/Xbox360/Ninjaga2_06_720p_x150Lanczos.png

[Quaz51]

picked up some more shots

http://pds9.egloos.com/pds/200805/31/79/c0005979_48401a2bc3884.jpg

http://pds9.egloos.com/pds/200805/31/79/c0005979_48401aedb2f40.jpg

http://pds7.egloos.com/pds/200805/31/79/c0005979_48401af69bc37.jpg

http://pds9.egloos.com/pds/200805/31/79/c0005979_48401b110ad40.jpg

http://pds7.egloos.com/pds/200805/31/79/c0005979_48401b19921b5.jpg

all screenshots confirm 1120x585, no doubt now

[zarbaj]

well, that's better.

thanks quaz and mazinger :)

[ngkane]

it work like photo mode in some game
for a 5120x2880 bullshot for exemple, the engine render sixteen 1280x720 frames with different camera parameter, downscale every frame in 320x180 and recompose the final 1280x720 frame with this sixteen little oversampled frame
at worst it just need an extra 3 or 4 MB of memory (but generally they use zero extra memory i think, just use front buffer for the compositing phase) in the console or devkit for make infinity resolution bullshot (the limit it's the time, a 5120x2880 bullshot with 30fps engine need an half second for create bullshot)

Thank you very much my friend :wink:

[Cyan]

Very interesting info regarding Ninja Gaiden 2, and thanks thanks thanks to the ever helpful Quad, as usual.

Any word on Enemy Territory Quake Wars? I've bought the game a couple of days ago and I'm pretty sure it's 720p -if not 1080p- (judgind by the size of the text on screen) with AAx4 or AAx8.

This game, while not impressive graphically, looks so clean and crisp because of that.

P.S: I'm playing it on a 360.

[GKchikan]

i say 1120x585 not 1152x595 or 1120x595
and Z-buffer is also 1120x585 of course
Sorry. I'm not even sure if Z buffer also has to be doubled for AA, but the calculation is 1120x585x4(32bit)x2(2xMSAA)x2(normal buffer + Z buffer?) / 1048576 = 9.99755859. So I understand why this resolution is the best setting available for Xenos. Thank you!

[deepbrown]

Very interesting info regarding Ninja Gaiden 2, and thanks thanks thanks to the ever helpful Quad, as usual.

Any word on Enemy Territory Quake Wars? I've bought the game a couple of days ago and I'm pretty sure it's 720p -if not 1080p- (judgind by the size of the text on screen) with AAx4 or AAx8.

This game, while not impressive graphically, looks so clean and crisp because of that.

P.S: I'm playing it on a 360.

Shouldn't judge by text. Text could be 1080p, but the rest could be...well, anything.

Oh and 1120by585 isn't 585p is it Quaz...?

[grandmaster]

Any word on Enemy Territory Quake Wars? I've bought the game a couple of days ago and I'm pretty sure it's 720p -if not 1080p- (judgind by the size of the text on screen) with AAx4 or AAx8.

This game, while not impressive graphically, looks so clean and crisp because of that.

P.S: I'm playing it on a 360.

Here's how it looks at 1080p on Xbox 360. First time I've played the game on any format and it's not really that impressive to look at, is it? Doesn't look much like native 1080p to me.

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/4016/quake001ck9.th.png (http://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?image=quake001ck9.png) http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/9973/quake002wy4.th.png (http://img242.imageshack.us/my.php?image=quake002wy4.png) http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/5108/quake003js0.th.png (http://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?image=quake003js0.png) http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/6078/quake004pn3.th.png (http://img410.imageshack.us/my.php?image=quake004pn3.png)

[M I IR IR O IR]

Hi
you saw the new Alone in the Dark 5
as a resolution to turn? 720p

http://xbox360media.ign.com/xbox360/image/article/875/875708/alone-in-the-dark-20080521104821298_640w.jpg

http://xbox360media.ign.com/xbox360/image/article/875/875708/alone-in-the-dark-20080521104840251_640w.jpg

http://xbox360media.ign.com/xbox360/image/article/875/875708/alone-in-the-dark-20080521104853704_640w.jpg

[Cyan]

Here's how it looks at 1080p on Xbox 360. First time I've played the game on any format and it's not really that impressive to look at, is it? Doesn't look much like native 1080p to me.

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/4016/quake001ck9.th.png (http://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?image=quake001ck9.png) http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/9973/quake002wy4.th.png (http://img242.imageshack.us/my.php?image=quake002wy4.png) http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/5108/quake003js0.th.png (http://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?image=quake003js0.png) http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/6078/quake004pn3.th.png (http://img410.imageshack.us/my.php?image=quake004pn3.png)
Thanks for the pics, grandmaster. I agree it isn't a pretty game to look at, the graphics are just functional to get the job done, they aren't eye candy at all. The megatexture technology works fine, though, since the textures look solid from afar and up close, no matter how far you move from them.

As for the text on screen, I meant that it looks small but very readable and antialiased, while in games with sub-HD resolutions like CoD4 it looks like capital letters and aliased.

Another factor I use to calculate actual native resolution is the field of view. 720p games tend to have a much broader field of view so moving objects and bodies distributed across the screen are not lost as easily.

That's what confuses me about photo-to-photo (720p or 1080p) comparisons between two versions of the same game rendered at different native resolutions.

Shouldn't be the field of view better in the native 720p version? I'm wondering that because in every comparison both versions show the same field of view, which I find strange and somewhat unnatural.

PS: I know my methods are archaic but it's just a "first sight" measure :smile:

[grandmaster]

I'm not sure what you're getting at. 1280x720 and 1920x1080 offer the same 16:9 aspect ratio.

EDIT: Hmmm. Very annoying. Those Quake shots have been scaled down by Imageshack. Can any one recommend an alternative that can deal with 1080p PNGs?

[Cyan]

I'm not sure what you're getting at. 1280x720 and 1920x1080 offer the same 16:9 aspect ratio.
Grandmaster, well, I mean, RTS games on PCs, for instance, have a different field of view depending on the native resolution you choose.

Running Age of Empires at 800x600 and 1600x1200 makes a big difference. In consoles, the native resolution doesn't matter that much then?

[grandmaster]

Oh right, I see. Nope, nothing like that on console as far as I know.

OK on another topic, I'm looking at Race Driver GRID full game captures on PlayStation 3. It looks pretty much the same to me as the demo - that includes resolution, AA, screen tear etc.

[Shifty Geezer]

Grandmaster, well, I mean, RTS games on PCs, for instance, have a different field of view depending on the native resolution you choose.

Running Age of Empires at 800x600 and 1600x1200 makes a big difference. In consoles, the native resolution doesn't matter that much then?FOV is entirely a camera choice. AoE changing the camera based on resolution is simply a design decision (or if you're talking about the old 2D versions, it happens because the graphics are fixed sizes in pixels, and a higher resolution screen has more pixels). There's nothing stopping a game incorporating the same perspective regardless of resolution. The only thing that'll be affected between resolutions due to hardware is the FOV, as widescreen displays show a different aspect, and targeting 4:3, you'd need ot choose whether to fit the same horizontal view in with wideangle, or leave the 4:3 player seeing less.

[AlStrong]

Hi
you saw the new Alone in the Dark 5
as a resolution to turn? 720p


These images are too small. Oh and please don't hotlink from other news sites. A URL to the gallery will be fine.

[Juan Panson]

Wow NG2 is one game where I definitely could not tell. It looks nice and sharp on my TV.

[Galduta]

I'm not sure what you're getting at. 1280x720 and 1920x1080 offer the same 16:9 aspect ratio.

EDIT: Hmmm. Very annoying. Those Quake shots have been scaled down by Imageshack. Can any one recommend an alternative that can deal with 1080p PNGs?

Maybe photobucket. , 5 MB size limit if you have a count.

[bagofsuck]

So NG2 resolution is based on the demo,are you guys going to do the same test for the retail version,to see if is also subpar 720p?

[assen]

So NG2 resolution is based on the demo,are you guys going to do the same test for the retail version,to see if is also subpar 720p?

Was there ever a game with different resolutions between demo and retail?

In 99% of the cases the demo is produced AFTER the retail version master disc leaves for the factory...

[Quaz51]

differente resolution (or even AA) between demo and retail it never hapen, never. it's a myth to let hope some disappointed gamers but zero chance for this. you can't change resolution at last moment (especially if it need tiling)
but nevertheless i will test if you want

[Cheezdoodles]

differente resolution (or even AA) between demo and retail it never hapen, never. it's a myth to let hope some disappointed gamers but zero chance for this. you can't change resolution at last moment (especially if it need tiling)
but nevertheless i will test if you want

Saints Row got a 4x AA patch for SDTV's that wasn't in the demo :P

[Quaz51]

SD mode isn't main video mode of the game, it's a neglected mode which can be easily optimized

[Cheezdoodles]

Any word on Enemy Territory Quake Wars? I've bought the game a couple of days ago and I'm pretty sure it's 720p -if not 1080p- (judgind by the size of the text on screen) with AAx4 or AAx8.

P.S: I'm playing it on a 360.

Um, 8x AA is impossible on the X360.

[Quaz51]

Um, 8x AA is impossible on the X360.

with supersampling, if a game run in 1920x1080 4xAA like NBA street you can make a AAx8 in 720p with a 1280x1440 AAx4 rendering downscaled in 1280x720 but it's preferable to improve just the framerate (like NBA street do in 720p mode)

in SD mode it happen probably in some case

[vspectra]

all screenshots confirm 1120x585, no doubt now

Can someone get captures of the cutscenes in NG2 and see if they also run at 1120x585 or perhaps they run at 720p instead?

[Dominik D]

Can someone get captures of the cutscenes in NG2 and see if they also run at 1120x585 or perhaps they run at 720p instead?
And why would they run on a different resolution?

[vspectra]

To look more crisp? The gameplay graphics in the NG2 have a certain fuzziness to them and it doesn't look as crisp as say DOA4 due to the resolution. It's kind of hard to tell in the cutscenes though.

[zarbaj]

vspectra, here is a shot from a cutscene:

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1168993&postcount=69

doubt it's any different though.

[Quaz51]

vspectra, here is a shot from a cutscene:

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1168993&postcount=69

doubt it's any different though.


1120x585

[Meckos]

Sorry for my english and the change of subject

I have seen in Neverending Upscaling/Resolutions/AA etc Thread #2 some people who dont understand why the upscaling chips on the RSX have been remove...

could it be the reason?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpursEngine

and firmware by firmware sony try to take advantage of this?
why some game is upconvert and other not?

thanks

[Hazuki Ryu]

About ninja gaiden 2 eurogamer review says

Frame-rate is a persistent issue, and while a little slowdown can actually look quite cool in places, it's not so great when it prevents you from pulling off a move in combat or just makes the whole display laggy. This is especially noticeable if you're running in 1080p - we had to drop our 360's display back to 1080i to get the game to run at an acceptable frame-rate, and this on a brand new 360 running a boxed copy of the PAL release.

Is this possible? Does scaling tax hardware in any way or is it just their imagination?

[AlStrong]

Is this possible? Does scaling tax hardware in any way or is it just their imagination?

They are probably seeing the effects of their display handling 1080i and 1080p content.

[Rockster]

They are probably seeing the effects of their display handling 1080i and 1080p content.

Affecting the frame rate? Huh?

[ultragpu]

anyone remember what res does Sigma run at?

[zarbaj]

check the sticky thread.

[MonkeyLicker]

About ninja gaiden 2 eurogamer review says



Is this possible? Does scaling tax hardware in any way or is it just their imagination?

My guess is it's their imagination. There's been no reports (that I've seen) of games having worse frame-rates on the 360 at upscaled 1080p resolution.
There's no reason it would tax the hardware. The most it would probably be is using resources already set aside like they do with the OS.
Hardware scaling just isn't very demanding, especially if you have dedicated hardware.

[warb]

anyone remember what res does Sigma run at?
720p no AA.

[assen]

Affecting the frame rate? Huh?

Yep, all TVs do some image processing, which inevitably leads to increased latency. It might be more for 1080p than 1080i for one particular model.

[Statix]

1080i should have no performance differences from 1080p, as far as the game itself goes. How an HDTV handles the two displays is a different matter, but I don't think framerate is ever affected either from switching between those two video modes.

[grandmaster]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but for ANA or HANA to process a 1080i output, it's going to be receiving a 1080p ready-scaled image from Xenos? I too am finding it very hard to believe that dropping from 1080p to 1080i is going to make any difference.

I've done some 720p vs 1080p captures and while I'm not sure I've got the right test clips yet, nothing I have found suggests that Xenos' scaling has any kind of performance hit. If people can suggest potential test clips, please do so in the frame rate analysis thread.

[acm2000]

http://i28.tinypic.com/dym0ig.jpg

this appears to be a non touched up RE5 screenshot, strange since the other 11 (http://gamersyde.com/news_6590_en.html) "direct feed" ones were all touched up with uber AA, any sign of res and aa?

[Rockster]

Yep, all TVs do some image processing, which inevitably leads to increased latency. It might be more for 1080p than 1080i for one particular model.

The reviewers comments are BS. Even if the display did additional processing it wouldn't effect the frame rate. Any video processing latency would only delay the video output and throw off synchronization with the audio.

[Heinrich4]

http://i28.tinypic.com/dym0ig.jpg

this appears to be a non touched up RE5 screenshot, strange since the other 11 (http://gamersyde.com/news_6590_en.html) "direct feed" ones were all touched up with uber AA, any sign of res and aa?

To me this pic appear 1280x 720 without AA.

[catisfit]

To me this pic appear 1280x 720 without AA.

I agree.

[JPT]

The reviewers comments are BS. Even if the display did additional processing it wouldn't effect the frame rate. Any video processing latency would only delay the video output and throw off synchronization with the audio.

What about gameplay timing, is this not something many people complained about when GHIII launched?

[Arwin]

It was the 360 version. They mention on Eurogamer that as they were asked to have a console version, they chose to make a quick port from the PC to the 360 as that was by far easiest. They also claim to be fine on the PS3, but well, we've heard that before. ;) Anyway, I wouldn't draw too many conclusions on it - the game's a long way off.

[assen]

While I agree with you in suspecting the reviewers are imagining things...

The reviewers comments are BS. Even if the display did additional processing it wouldn't effect the frame rate. Any video processing latency would only delay the video output and throw off synchronization with the audio.

The additional processing can be compensated by the TV by delaying the audio the same amount of time. This wouldn't hurt the framerate, but the latency, which will make the game "feel" sluggish.

[qz33]

Can someone please direct me as to how actual game resolutions can be determined?

I mean I saw this List of Game Rendering Resolutions + some info on the hardware scaling (http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=46241) but it seems very incomplete.
get started here.

[hero17]

Two shots of PS3 version of BioShock... what do you guys think?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3143/2549133644_3ac8e7006e_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3142/2549133702_b7c567a693_o.jpg

[Mintmaster]

Yep, all TVs do some image processing, which inevitably leads to increased latency. It might be more for 1080p than 1080i for one particular model.Latency, sure, but not framerate, which is what Rockster is specifically referring to. The only way framerate can change is if the 360 is rendering differently at that res.

[Quaz51]

Two shots of PS3 version of BioShock... what do you guys think?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3143/2549133644_3ac8e7006e_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3142/2549133702_b7c567a693_o.jpg

it's 1280x720 no AA like X360 but little bit blurry

[FirewalkR]

it's 1280x720 no AA like X360 but little bit blurry

Hmm, the picture with the fire and smoke seems perhaps a bit blurry in places but... there's smoke :D, however, the letters on the sign in the background are pretty well defined. What do you mean blurry, exactly? Textures and/or texture filtering perhaps?

[Jesus2006]

Hmm, the picture with the fire and smoke seems perhaps a bit blurry in places but... there's smoke :D, however, the letters on the sign in the background are pretty well defined. What do you mean blurry, exactly? Textures and/or texture filtering perhaps?

Looks more like a postprocessing filter to me.

[Quaz51]

Hmm, the picture with the fire and smoke seems perhaps a bit blurry in places but... there's smoke :D, however, the letters on the sign in the background are pretty well defined. What do you mean blurry, exactly? Textures and/or texture filtering perhaps?

all edge are little blured, post-process filter for reduce aliasing or bad capture

[Jedi2016]

Any word on Lego Indy? Same as Lego SW? That was one was different per console.

[Gitaroo]

360 version of Bioshock has some kind of edge blurring to make up for the anti aliasing if the ini file in the PC version is correct, maybe they are trying to make the same thing for PS3 version.

[Dominik D]

Can someone please direct me as to how actual game resolutions can be determined?

I mean I saw this List of Game Rendering Resolutions + some info on the hardware scaling (http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=46241) but it seems very incomplete.
get started here.

What do you mean by incomplete? It has huge, bold links to three posts describing how to count pixels.

[chachi]

all edge are little blured, post-process filter for reduce aliasing or bad capture
It's not just the edges. It's either a poor capture (hopefully) or they've applied a blur filter to help with jaggies. I hate that seeming trend in PS3 games, HD is meant to be clean and sharp, not blurry. Contrast with the RE5 shot, that's how HD should look. Sure it'd be better if there was AA but at least it looks like you're seeing the game without smearing vaseline in your eyes. There are enough upscaled games without making proper HD ones look upscaled.

edit - I'm probably being unfair to Bioshock, there's probably DOF on there as well that makes things look even more blurry in the background and it won't seem so bad in motion, but I really hope this isn't the improved graphics the rumors mentioned.

[DrJay24]

I see the master list has some UE3 games listed with 2x AA. I wasn't aware that UE3 could do MSAA, so what is used? If it is some kind of selective AA (Gears?) maybe the list should be more explicit.

[catisfit]

I was looking at the following Battlefield: Bad Company screenshot (native 720p by the looks of it), and it seems to suffer from significant dithering like GTA4 360 (it's this similarity that leads me to suspect this is a 360 screenshot although that's unconfirmed):

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/3338/bbc1va5.th.jpg (http://img256.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bbc1va5.jpg)

It seems strange, here's a 2x closeup of the tress on the horizon, which seem to suddenly flick from non-dithered to dithered:

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/6564/bbc1treesrb1.th.jpg (http://img255.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bbc1treesrb1.jpg)

I can't see that there's any difference between the two sets of trees, I thought perhaps one set might be a painted skybox and the other a billboard but that doesn't seem to be the case.

It looks like the smoke uses dithering too (2x closeup):

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/176/bbc1smokekj8.th.jpg (http://img255.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bbc1smokekj8.jpg)

Is this a similar artifact to GTA4?

[Arwin]

This is a transparancy issue. There are two ways to do transparancy. A real alpha based one, and one that uses dithering (showing the background in alternate pixels). It's hard to predict what will happen on which platform really - one game will have real transparency on the 360 and the other one (it has a name but I forgot) on PS3, and the next game will have it the other way around (Sega Rally is one example at least). Real transparency is sometimes not possible because it costs more, depending on the circumstances (video mode, scaling, tiling, etc.)

[qz33]

What do you mean by incomplete? It has huge, bold links to three posts describing how to count pixels.


Lets try it like this. It is incomplete for me with a near non existant understanding of this material to understand. I do not know what that graph is supposed to communicate. Are you guys counting pixels by zooming the source?


Like I said I am new and I just want to understand somethings so I can read the posts here.

[AlStrong]

Lets try it like this. It is incomplete for me with a near non existant understanding of this material to understand. I do not know what that graph is supposed to communicate. Are you guys counting pixels by zooming the source?


Like I said I am new and I just want to understand somethings so I can read the posts here.

Did you at least see the zoomed in screenshots with lines indicating steps and number of pixels (the Halo 3 examples) ? It sounds like you didn't go through all the links.

[Shifty Geezer]

This is a transparancy issue.It's a very weird transparency issue! Look on the third image - only osme of the blending is dithering. Other parts are properly alpha blended. And why in this day and age are we looking at dithered transparency?! Especially when plenty of similar titles aren't needing to resort to these low-tech hacks?

[AlStrong]

It's a very weird transparency issue! Look on the third image - only osme of the blending is dithering. Other parts are properly alpha blended. And why in this day and age are we looking at dithered transparency?! Especially when plenty of similar titles aren't needing to resort to these low-tech hacks?

IIRC, this is an artifact of alpha-to-coverage due to not enough sampling. As Arwin mentions - the upshot is that it will save on fillrate as there is no actual blending occurring. For a foliage heavy game, I can see why they would use it, and if they increase the AA level the dithering would be reduced somewhat.

[Quaz51]

there are lot of game that use alpha-coverage for foliage like this
for exemple Sega Rally use alpha-coverage on X360 and alpha-blend on PS3 but Dirt use alpha-coverage on PS3 and alpha-blend on X360

http://images.eurogamer.net/assets/articles//a/8/7/2/0/4/Rally1.jpg.jpg
http://images.eurogamer.net/assets/articles//a/8/7/2/0/4/Rally4.jpg.jpg

[AlStrong]

there are lot of game that use alpha-coverage for foliage like this
for exemple Sega Rally use alpha-coverage on X360 and alpha-blend on PS3 but Dirt use alpha-coverage on PS3 and alpha-blend on X360

http://images.eurogamer.net/assets/articles//a/8/7/2/0/4/Rally1.jpg.jpg
http://images.eurogamer.net/assets/articles//a/8/7/2/0/4/Rally4.jpg.jpg

It's a pretty odd choice considering the bandwidth available to the ROPs on the 360. Perhaps they are using an FP16 framebuffer.

[-tkf-]

Lets try it like this. It is incomplete for me with a near non existant understanding of this material to understand. I do not know what that graph is supposed to communicate. Are you guys counting pixels by zooming the source?


Like I said I am new and I just want to understand somethings so I can read the posts here.

Do as everyone else here, read for a few weeks, learn and then start to post questions :-)

[Mintmaster]

there are lot of game that use alpha-coverage for foliage like this
for exemple Sega Rally use alpha-coverage on X360 and alpha-blend on PS3 but Dirt use alpha-coverage on PS3 and alpha-blend on X360

http://images.eurogamer.net/assets/articles//a/8/7/2/0/4/Rally1.jpg.jpg
http://images.eurogamer.net/assets/articles//a/8/7/2/0/4/Rally4.jpg.jpgSeems like some devs are confused. If you can do alpha blending (i.e. you have the framework for sorting), then that's always the best choice.

Alpha-to-coverage is a superior substitute for alpha testing that takes advantage of a multisampled framebuffer.

[Mintmaster]

I was looking at the following Battlefield: Bad Company screenshot (native 720p by the looks of it), and it seems to suffer from significant dithering like GTA4 360 (it's this similarity that leads me to suspect this is a 360 screenshot although that's unconfirmed):This is actually quite different from the GTA4 problem. GTA4 does use alpha to coverage at times, but only where PS3 uses aliasing-prone alpha testing, like with fences and tree leaves. The problem with GTA4 has to do with some texturing bug along with their shadowing method (which is poorly implemented on 360).

It looks like the smoke uses dithering too (2x closeup):

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/176/bbc1smokekj8.th.jpg (http://img255.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bbc1smokekj8.jpg)This is really weird because clearly some parts of the smoke are alpha blended. Why would only parts of it look dithered?

It's a pretty odd choice considering the bandwidth available to the ROPs on the 360. Perhaps they are using an FP16 framebuffer.You can be sure that they're using alpha blending on other things like dirt clouds (http://images.eurogamer.net/assets/articles//a/8/7/2/0/4/Rally8.jpg.jpg) or water spray (http://images.eurogamer.net/assets/articles//a/8/7/2/0/4/Rally3.jpg.jpg), so that's unlikely. Who knows why they decided to alpha test the shrubs on 360.

[DrJay24]

Quaz, check out the "Crash Time" 360 demo. It looks like a blurry mess, one of the ugliest games on the 360. The sense of speed isn't bad and I like the crash replay with the analog stick, but the graphics...

[catisfit]

This is really weird because clearly some parts of the smoke are alpha blended. Why would only parts of it look dithered?

It is strange, isn't it? That's why I posted it up here because I couldn't see any reason why only parts of the image look like this.

[Gitaroo]

anyone check Ikaruga and REZ HD on xbl? Wonder if those run at 1080p

[Quaz51]

anyone check Ikaruga and REZ HD on xbl? Wonder if those run at 1080p

no
both have 1280x720p AAx4 native resolution (and 540x720 rendering resolution for Ikaruga)

[Quaz51]

Quaz, check out the "Crash Time" 360 demo. It looks like a blurry mess, one of the ugliest games on the 360. The sense of speed isn't bad and I like the crash replay with the analog stick, but the graphics...

it's 1280x720 AAx2

[MvmntInGrn]

It Battlefield Bad Company running at same resolution on both consoles? PS3 demo is up, 360 too (I think)

They are trying to hide aliasing somehow but up close it looks funny (PS3), do you know whats up?

[AlStrong]

no
both have 1280x720p AAx4 native resolution (and 540x720 rendering resolution for Ikaruga)

huh? Both have native 720p+4xAA yet Ikaruga has 540x720 ?

[Dr. Nick]

He might be talking about how it is rendered. All verticle shumps have fat boarders around them.

[Quaz51]

huh? Both have native 720p+4xAA yet Ikaruga has 540x720 ?

both have 1280x720p native resolution but the rendering resolution of Ikaruga is a vertical windows of 540x720 pixel in the center of the screen
in majority of case native resolution = rendering resolution but in some case no
for me native resolution is more an indication of density of information par pixel on your display, in Ikutaragi this density is like 1280x720 but with two big large band with no 3D rendering

for exemple a game like resistence2 will be in 1280x720 native resolution but with a 1280x704 rendering resolution and two 8 pixel black border, the precision and density of information par pixel will be like 720p game. only if they would upscale 704 rendering in 720 that will be a 1280x704 native resolution

or game like doom with a display zone without rendering
http://membres.lycos.fr/wilou84suigintou/Doom/Images/Screen_jDoom_e2m9_1.jpg
it's a 640x480 native resolution but with a 640x400 rendering resolution

it's my personal use of this terms

[AlStrong]

both have 1280x720p native resolution but the rendering resolution of Ikaruga is a vertical windows of 540x720 pixel in the center of the screen
in majority of case native resolution = rendering resolution but in some case no
for me native resolution is more an indication of density of information par pixel on your display, in Ikutaragi this density is like 1280x720 but with two big large band with no 3D rendering


Oh I see, I didn't know about the confinement to the traditional arcade vertical view. :p

[DrJay24]

it's 1280x720 AAx2

Wow, I guess the textures and shadows are just bad (tons of draw and pop-in too).

[Quaz51]

It Battlefield Bad Company running at same resolution on both consoles? PS3 demo is up, 360 too (I think)

They are trying to hide aliasing somehow but up close it looks funny (PS3), do you know whats up?


1280x720 on PS3

[Shifty Geezer]

I've been looking but we don't appear to have an official report on Warhawk. The IQ of this game is actually very good, something I haven't appreciated seeing as it's one of the few games I play! Is it 4xAA?

[Quaz51]

I've been looking but we don't appear to have an official report on Warhawk. The IQ of this game is actually very good, something I haven't appreciated seeing as it's one of the few games I play! Is it 4xAA?


yes Warhawk is 1280x720 4xAA

[Dominik D]

Did you ever check the original Resistance or Motorstorm by any chance?

[Gitaroo]

I think motor storm is 1280X720p 2X MSAA, Resistance is 1280X704 QAA.

[DJ12]

Resistance and Motorstorm are full 720p with 2xAA

You can see a couple of posts above some extra note on Resistance.

Resistance is 1280X704 QAA.
It uses "normal" AA unless Quaz wasn't specifying the type of AA used when he first checked it.

[Quaz51]

I think motor storm is 1280X720p 2X MSAA, Resistance is 1280X704 QAA.

Resistance is 1280x720 (and quincunx)

[Statix]

Resistance is 1280x720 (and quincunx)
Then it's a perfect example of a game that is not blurry at all (despite Quincunx!). In fact it's still the game with the cleanest look of all platforms!
Anyone have any direct framebuffer screengrabs of Resistence, so we can take a closer look at its image quality?

[Quaz51]

retail version of NG2 is 1120x585 too (of course)

[deepbrown]

retail version of NG2 is 1120x585 too (of course)

Is that 585p?

[AlStrong]

Is that 585p?
It's anamorphic 16:9

[Fafalada]

Who knows why they decided to alpha test the shrubs on 360.
CPU sorting costs? They can be just as big of a problem as the alpha fill compatibility/performance issues on GPU.

[AlStrong]

Though Warhawk looks sharp for being Quincunx.

Warhawk is 4xMSAA. :p

[grandmaster]

Here is an HDMI shot of Resistance I took from my archive. May well be YPrPb 4:2:2 rather than the usual lossless 24-bit RGB though.

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/5204/resistancefk6.th.jpg (http://img165.imageshack.us/my.php?image=resistancefk6.jpg)

The image is full-screen 1280x720... so are they vertically upscaling from 1280x704? I was expecting eight pixels of blackness top and bottom.

[Quaz51]

no, Resistance is 1280x720, 1280x704 it's Re2

[lbartley]

Any word on the AA for the 360 Battlefield: Bad Company demo?

[shazam]

Resistance is 1280x720 (and quincunx)

why does warhawk have black borders?

[Hazuki Ryu]

Any word on the AA for the 360 Battlefield: Bad Company demo?

Don't know if it has been counted yet but seems less than 720p to me not really sure though.

[Blade47167]

why does warhawk have black borders?

The black borders are for overscan I believe. Go into your options and you can adjust the screen in all directions to make the perfect fit with your tv.

[Mintmaster]

CPU sorting costs? They can be just as big of a problem as the alpha fill compatibility/performance issues on GPU.You're not serious, are you? How many shrubs could possibly be in the screen at once? Maybe 1,000? There's way less in that screenshot.

That can be sorted extremely quickly on modern CPUs, i.e. tenths of a millisecond or less. You don't need exact sorting within each shrub either (not that it should cost much) because they're mostly opaque and the color is so similar, so artifacts will be nearly impossible to see.

[djskribbles]

Don't know if it has been counted yet but seems less than 720p to me not really sure though.
ps3 version is 720p, so i have no doubt the 360 version is too.

[Hazuki Ryu]

ps3 version is 720p, so i have no doubt the 360 version is too.

It looked a bit more jagged than most 720p games it might be the film grain playing tricks on me though.

Is this image 720p?

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2008/098/reviews/935085_20080408_screen001.jpg

[Shifty Geezer]

It looked a bit more jagged than most 720p games it might be the film grain playing tricks on me though.

Is this image 720p?No, that's upscaled and sharpened. Very ugly!

[Hazuki Ryu]

No, that's upscaled and sharpened. Very ugly!

Very ugly indeed lol.

Anyone knows if it's possible to remove the grain effect in the final version on the game?

[Quaz51]

It looked a bit more jagged than most 720p games it might be the film grain playing tricks on me though.

Is this image 720p?

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2008/098/reviews/935085_20080408_screen001.jpg

yes it's 1280x720 no AA
PS3 screenshot?

[Tap In]

could MP (which is what that shot is from) be different from the SP?

[Quaz51]

it's the same in SP

[Hazuki Ryu]

yes it's 1280x720 no AA
PS3 screenshot?

No xbox 360 from gamespot might as well be Ps3 but it is on the xbox screens

[Shifty Geezer]

yes it's 1280x720 no AA
PS3 screenshot?You're right, you know. ;) I should have paid careful attention to distribution of 'extended edges' as I keep forgetting there's a lot of in-game blur being added these days. But I'm perplexed as to why blur, and what's with the sharpen filter? Is that in-game, or something Gamespot have done? If in-game, perhaps that explains why it looks rougher than average?

[Fafalada]

You're not serious, are you? How many shrubs could possibly be in the screen at once? Maybe 1,000? There's way less in that screenshot.
Well, you can never underestimate how stupid or slow the sorting process might really be, who knows if someone tacked the idea on way too late in tech development for it to work nicely with the rest of the system.
As for count of sorted objects, I recall we did have up to 1k worth of grass patches on screen in PS2 games, granted we didn't need to sort them at all due to how they were blended but that's another matter.

I do agree about not needing exact sort, but again, we don't really know how they handle it internally. And I learned to never assume optimal implementations in commercial products without proof :razz:

[lbartley]

Is there a final word on MGS4? The list only has the MGO beta listed.

[Mintmaster]

Well, you can never underestimate how stupid or slow the sorting process might really be, who knows if someone tacked the idea on way too late in tech development for it to work nicely with the rest of the system.Sure, but it would have to be rather specific stupidity to only affect the 360 version.

As for count of sorted objects, I recall we did have up to 1k worth of grass patches on screen in PS2 games, granted we didn't need to sort them at all due to how they were blended but that's another matter.I was actually just talking about this particular game.

I do agree about not needing exact sort, but again, we don't really know how they handle it internally. And I learned to never assume optimal implementations in commercial products without proof :razz:True, but whenever you see these types of differences between versions of the same game, it raises eyebrows.

[zarbaj]

Is there a final word on MGS4? The list only has the MGO beta listed.

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1161422&postcount=1058
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1161435&postcount=1059

[AlStrong]

Mod note: To ngkane: Your post was moved to the PC forums. Your questions are suited there.

[lbartley]

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1161422&postcount=1058
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1161435&postcount=1059

Thanks, I guess I missed those. :)

[Gitaroo]

Last Remnent 360

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/game/docs/20080610/rpg13.htm
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/game/docs/20080610/rpg16.htm
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/game/docs/20080610/rpg17.htm

720p no AA?

[AlStrong]

720p no AA?

Evidently, yes.

[thambos]

Darksiders: Wrath of War(x360)
via: http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/53081

http://www.shacknews.com/images/image-o-matic.x?/images/sshots/Screenshot/10036/10036_484f03e07eb58.jpg
http://www.shacknews.com/images/image-o-matic.x?/images/sshots/Screenshot/10036/10036_484f03e3b83ab.jpg
http://www.shacknews.com/images/image-o-matic.x?/images/sshots/Screenshot/10036/10036_484f03e753891.jpg
http://www.shacknews.com/images/image-o-matic.x?/images/sshots/Screenshot/10036/10036_484f03eaad474.jpg
http://www.shacknews.com/images/image-o-matic.x?/images/sshots/Screenshot/10036/10036_484f03ed8fe45.jpg
http://www.shacknews.com/images/image-o-matic.x?/images/sshots/Screenshot/10036/10036_484f03f0c870d.jpg
http://www.shacknews.com/images/image-o-matic.x?/images/sshots/Screenshot/10036/10036_484f03f482031.jpg

Pics are 1680x1050. Aliasing is visible though. Is this a medium resolution for 720/1080p of some sort? or bullshot?

[elektrixxx]

Hi. I've been lurkin' here for a while now but now I have a question to ask:

What's the resolution of Super Street Fighter II Turbo HD Remix?

There's been plenty of screenshots released and the sizes of those are 1280x754 on IGN and 1280x754 on GS, and the beta comes with Commando 3. They're been advertising 1080p resolution, but I'd like the real story.

http://ps3media.ign.com/ps3/image/article/878/878625/super-street-fighter-ii-turbo-hd-remix-20080602103411875.jpg
http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2008/153/939066_20080602_screen008.jpg

[thambos]

Hi. I've been lurkin' here for a while now but now I have a question to ask:

What's the resolution of Super Street Fighter II Turbo HD Remix?

There's been plenty of screenshots released and the sizes of those are 1280x754 on IGN and 1280x754 on GS, and the beta comes with Commando 3. They're been advertising 1080p resolution, but I'd like the real story.

http://ps3media.ign.com/ps3/image/article/878/878625/super-street-fighter-ii-turbo-hd-remix-20080602103411875.jpg
http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2008/153/939066_20080602_screen008.jpg

These seem to be 1080p.
http://www.shacknews.com/images/image-o-matic.x?/images/sshots/Screenshot/9996/9996_4846d363c7486.jpg
http://www.shacknews.com/images/image-o-matic.x?/images/sshots/Screenshot/9996/9996_4846d35e2e14a.jpg
http://www.shacknews.com/images/image-o-matic.x?/images/sshots/Screenshot/9996/9996_4846d36120509.jpg

The game doesn't seem that technically demanding. I don't think they'll have a problem living up to their word.


edit: Commando 3 is being released on XBLA today. People who buy it will have access to the SSFII HD Remix Beta. So there's an opportunity to see the game in action.

June 11 release date (http://xbox360.ign.com/objects/142/14211924.html)
Commando 3 XBLA includes SSFII Turbo HD Remix beta (http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=94547)
Lack of SSFII beta for PS3 explained (http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=94780)

[AlStrong]

Pics are 1680x1050. Aliasing is visible though. Is this a medium resolution for 720/1080p of some sort? or bullshot?

Looks like native 1680x1050 - seems more evidence of an in-bound PC version.

edit: No PC version announced. It's likely a bullshot to represent console editions then.

[Laa-Yosh]

Darksiders: Wrath of War(x360)
via: http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/53081

Cool, they've re-used a lot of our cinematics model for the ingame version. Nice to see my baby :)

[AlStrong]

Mod Note: Moved the Bioshock comments to the game thread.

[chris100]

How is the Starwars:Force Unleashed going ? 720p w/4AA?

http://images.gamersyde.com/gallery/public/8653/1205_0007.jpg
http://images.gamersyde.com/gallery/public/8653/1205_0002.jpg
http://images.gamersyde.com/gallery/public/8653/1205_0004.jpg


Btw,the art style changed a lot..:razz::razz: It is too colorful now.

[djskribbles]

i don't think its 4xAA... aliasing is clearly visible. its not bad by any means, just saying you can see aliasing. maybe 2xAA?

[deepbrown]

Sorry, where did the "no AA" in MGS4 get confirmed...considering MGO has 2xAA (even though temporal)

[AlStrong]

Quaz didn't mention AA level, just the resolution.
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1161435&postcount=1059

It's a bit hard to determine temporal AA from screenshots. :p

[thambos]

How is the Starwars:Force Unleashed going ? 720p w/4AA?

http://images.gamersyde.com/gallery/public/8653/1205_0007.jpg
http://images.gamersyde.com/gallery/public/8653/1205_0002.jpg
http://images.gamersyde.com/gallery/public/8653/1205_0004.jpg


Btw,the art style changed a lot..:razz::razz: It is too colorful now.
It looks like it's had it's color enhanced. Sort of like those Resistance 2 bullshots.

http://i27.tinypic.com/2ludsgw.jpg
http://i32.tinypic.com/2m5iv.jpg

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

some new Unreal Tournament 3 xbox 360 screens

http://images.eurogamer.net/assets/articles//a/1/3/2/8/6/5/UT3_061108_04.jpg.jpg
http://images.eurogamer.net/assets/articles//a/1/3/2/8/6/5/UT3_061108_05.jpg.jpg
http://images.eurogamer.net/assets/articles//a/1/3/2/8/6/5/UT3_061108_06.jpg.jpg
http://images.eurogamer.net/assets/articles//a/1/3/2/8/6/5/UT3_061108_07.jpg.jpg
http://images.eurogamer.net/assets/articles//a/1/3/2/8/6/5/UT3_GamersDay_ScreenShot00244.bmp.jpg
http://images.eurogamer.net/assets/articles//a/1/3/2/8/6/5/UT3_061108_03.jpg.jpg
http://images.eurogamer.net/assets/articles//a/1/3/2/8/6/5/UT3_061108_02.jpg.jpg

Some look 1280x720 no AA. Some almost look like bullshot w/ no Aliasing. It's somewhat confusing.

[zarbaj]

okay, here is a unique request, disgaea 3:

http://www.gamersyde.com/news_6628_en.html

edit: to AlStrong, i know this might be demanding but can you please add tips about the difference between msaa/qaa/temporal to the sticky thread?

[deepbrown]

Quaz didn't mention AA level, just the resolution.
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1161435&postcount=1059

It's a bit hard to determine temporal AA from screenshots. :p

So why does it say "no AA" in the list? Ah....it no longer does.

Are you watching DeepBlue of Neogaf? - it's not finally confirmed as 1024by768 (0xAA). But it's still most likely that resolution and the same AA as MGO.

[zarbaj]

1024X768 you mean.

btw...isn't that 4:3 resolution? it was my favorite res. with my old crt, most plasmas have the same res. as well.

[PeterT]

okay, here is a unique request, disgaea 3:

http://www.gamersyde.com/news_6628_en.html
I'm not one of the professional pixel counters but the 3D parts of Disgaea 3 are obviously rendered at 1280*720, no AA. The sprites seem to be the exact same resolution they were on PS2.

[liolio]

Quaz51 did you recieve pressures lately as you are way less active or it's just related to your schedule?

[Quaz51]

i have my MGS4, i test later...

[Quaz51]

Quartz51 did you recieve pressures lately as you are way less active or it's just related to your schedule?

no but i don't intend to confirm and discuss all 720p games, there are hundreds
i'm just interested in no720p games category
it isn't vital to know resolution and AA of all game, if your eyes say "it's good" it's enough :)

[liolio]

i have my MGS4, i test later...
HT
Pas folle la guèpe ;) il faut bien s'amuser dans la vie.
/HT

[XeRo]

i have my MGS4, i test later...

internets going to explode soon.

[catisfit]

internets going to explode soon.

:grin:

It depends on (assuming it's the same as the MGO beta) whether it's reported as 768p at 4/3, or "the equivalent of 'full' 665p". Unfortunately I think it might end up being the latter for various gaming sites and their page hits :sad:

[DJ12]

Almost 2 hours have passed and Quaz still hasn't confirmed what resolution it's running at.

I guess Quaz is a fan of the series ;)

[Quaz51]

1024x768 confirmed of course and temporal AAx2 (i think they use intelligent temporal AA , they disable temporal AA when there are camera movement or quickly player movement for avoid remanence effect)
30fps but some moment at 60fps

[Shifty Geezer]

Thanks Quaz. Now stop posting on forums and actually play these games ;) Have fun!

[AlStrong]

edit: to AlStrong, i know this might be demanding but can you please add tips about the difference between msaa/qaa/temporal to the sticky thread?

Quaz, would you mind clarifying your explanation of temporal AA? I apologize for the jab at your English, but I'd just like to make sure using these two posts in particular:

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1121298&postcount=49
maybe odd and even frame have an half pixel shift rendering (and no AA) and when blend frame with frame -1 that make exactly the same effect than a MSAA 2x ... for static context only, in movement they are just persistence effect that blur the imagehttp://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1121328&postcount=50
that also can explain why they are AA on my photo in the PS3 version and not in the X360 version
this type of AA by temporal frame blend make equivalent SSAA on static scene, not MSAA, and for line on alpha-coverage primitive the classic MSAA don't work, just SSAA. i think this graphic element is in alpha-coverageAs I understand from reading it:

Temporal AA on PS3 - odd and even frames are rendered with a half-pixel shift. The current frame is blended with the previous frame to achieve a similar effect as super sample AA for static scenes. In a moving scene, the blending of the odd and even frames produces a persistent blurring of the image. However, this is also advantageous for the edges of alpha-to-coverage primitives, because traditional multisampling does not work*, only super sampling.

*see transparency AA or adaptive AA settings on appropriate PC hardware.

[catisfit]

30fps but some moment at 60fps

Does this mean it can increase to 60fps depending on what's going on during gameplay, or only at certain times (like during cutscenes)?

It has vsync enabled, doesn't it?

[22psi]

1024x768: interesting resolution... anyone wanna chime in on why they'd choose this output?

[zarbaj]

Does this mean it can increase to 60fps depending on what's going on during gameplay, or only at certain times (like during cutscenes)?

It has vsync enabled, doesn't it?

i didn't play the game but a friend of mine told me when in an empty room for example, framerate hits 60 fps.

same thing for the cutscenes he said, framerate is unlocked maybe.

[Gitaroo]

so final version of mgs4 is a full screen resolution but a widescreen FOV? Why would that do that? So there actually looks like there is a advantage to play at 1080p because it display the full 768 pixel? I notice that this game doesnt have the ghosting effect like DMC4 and the mess like Lost Planet even running at 30 fps with the temporal AA.

[AlStrong]

Why would that do that?

Graphics hardware work on pixel batches of fixed size, and it would be most efficient to submit a whole number multiple of tiles. The G70 series, in particular, work with batches or tiles of 64x16 pixels (1024 pixel granularity).

[-tkf-]

so final version of mgs4 is a full screen resolution but a widescreen FOV? Why would that do that? So there actually looks like there is a advantage to play at 1080p because it display the full 768 pixel? I notice that this game doesnt have the ghosting effect like DMC4 and the mess like Lost Planet even running at 30 fps with the temporal AA.

Maybe scaled vertical resolution is "easier" on the eyes and doesnt come across as soft?

EDIT: Or is it Horizontal.. oh well :)

[Quaz51]

vertical resolution is more importante because more line = better ground IQ and in majority of games you are alway near a ground with hard perspective
when you chose an anamorphic resolution i think it's better to use an excess of line like 1024x600 games or others with 1080 line like GT
for example i think the 1120x585 of NG2 isn't really a good choice, it fill perfectly the EDRAM but i think a 1024x630 anamorphic resolution will be little better with little less pixels
and for my personal experience for determine resolution, often i find more easly horizontal aliased edges than vertical , maybe statistically there are more horizontal edge than vertical in games in average and in this case more lines is more importante for aliasing
and maybe 1024x1024 resolution or under like 1024x768, are more optimal for TMU and texture cache when you do post-process on framebuffer (and rescal)

[Quaz51]

Quaz, would you mind clarifying your explanation of temporal AA? I apologize for the jab at your English, but I'd just like to make sure using these two posts in particular:

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1121298&postcount=49
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1121328&postcount=50
As I understand from reading it:

Temporal AA on PS3 - odd and even frames are rendered with a half-pixel shift. The current frame is blended with the previous frame to achieve a similar effect as super sample AA for static scenes. In a moving scene, the blending of the odd and even frames produces a persistent blurring of the image. However, this is also advantageous for the edges of alpha-to-coverage primitives, because traditional multisampling does not work*, only super sampling.

*see transparency AA or adaptive AA settings on appropriate PC hardware.



yes

[arhra]

Does this mean it can increase to 60fps depending on what's going on during gameplay, or only at certain times (like during cutscenes)?

It has vsync enabled, doesn't it?

It's more that there are a few odd corners* where it jumps to 60. But generally speaking gameplay is 30 (even when there aren't any enemies around or anything happening).

And yes, it's vsynced, or at least, i haven't noticed any tearing yet.

* Quite literally an odd corner, by a stairwell in a courtyard, in the one case that's leapt out at me so far. Although i haven't played got that far in yet.

[Quaz51]

Vsync enable but sometimes at 1VBL

[AlStrong]

edit: to AlStrong, i know this might be demanding but can you please add tips about the difference between msaa/qaa/temporal to the sticky thread?

Well... I wrote something. I hope it helps. :p

[zarbaj]

we are not worthy.

:bow AIStrong :bow

[Gitaroo]

temporal AA can have no impact to the performence?

[Shifty Geezer]

Tiny blending requirement. It's not a 'real' AA solution, more a jaggie reduction technique.

[Gitaroo]

ya, Im thinking maybe more developer should use this instead of those blur filter.

[betan]

ya, Im thinking maybe more developer should use this instead of those blur filter.

If the ghosting is not noticeable for small camera/object movement (more so than motion blur) and effect is disabled for fast, I'm thinking maybe more developer should use it instead of 2xAA.

I wonder how it looks with 4 points of rotation/buffers (~ 4xAA) in motion.

I think the effect can be applied at object level instead of frame level, with displacement data and everything.

[kumayu]

Doesn't temporal AA cause the frame to be blur?
You blend two frames which has slight different position.
How can you avoid that half pixel blur??

[AlphaWolf]

Doesn't temporal AA cause the frame to be blur?
You blend two frames which has slight different position.
How can you avoid that half pixel blur??

With a high frame rate it can actually look quite good, at 30fps however you're going have to live with some blur.

[Karoshi]

Doesn't temporal AA cause the frame to be blur?
You blend two frames which has slight different position.
How can you avoid that half pixel blur??

If the camera is not moving, that half pixel blur is 2xAA blur :smile:.
But still i dont get it, blending is 0.5 alpha, I guess, but then you are not getting 2xAA blur, cause the samples are not weighted at 0.5 for, say, a 10 frame series (.33 secs!).

After just enabling 2xAA temporal, pixel alternates between 1 and 0:

In Accum(FB)
1 1
0 0.5
1 0.75
0 0.375
1 ...
0 ...
I guess it should be possible to alternate alpha on each redraw.
Too much thinking. Anyone got a url for the solution?

[kumayu]

If the camera is not moving, that half pixel blur is 2xAA blur :smile:.



I don't get it.
I know the edge pixel will be AA.
But how about pixels which not on edge ?
Those pixels will be half pixel blur , too.....that's not good.

[Karoshi]

I don't get it.
I know the edge pixel will be AA.
But how about pixels which not on edge ?
Those pixels will be half pixel blur , too.....that's not good.

Hadnt thought about that: 2xSSAA, cool!
Maybe someone with a clue should comment wether tex bias should be applied to sharpen pre SSAA blur. I just had 3 coffees...:shock:

[catisfit]

Vsync enable but sometimes at 1VBL

That's what I expected based on your description.