Neverending Upscaling/Resolutions/AA etc Thread #3 (Rules Post #1!) [Archive] - Page 3

user542745831

16-Jul-2008, 15:35

hello,

is wipeout hd full and native 1920 x 1080p ingame on ps3?

or is it some kind of upscaled 1080p like gran turismo 5 prologue (1280 x 1080)?

there are some pictures in this thread:

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=42132

and you can get a 1080p60 h.264 trailer from

http://www.wipeouthd.com/

in the video section.

in the trailer it is stated that it will be full hd 1080p resolution at 60fps.

wondering when this game will be released.

no announcement at e3 so far.

1920 x 1080p at stable 60fps seems to be impressive.

SG79

16-Jul-2008, 16:43

Possible to figure out the res of RE5 from those?

http://the-horror.com/forums/showpost.php?p=35755&postcount=1

AlStrong

16-Jul-2008, 16:53

Possible to figure out the res of RE5 from those?

http://the-horror.com/forums/showpost.php?p=35755&postcount=1

They are either epic bullshots for consoles, or are taken from the PC version. :wink4:

One of the shots looks like native res with 4xMSAA.

grandmaster

16-Jul-2008, 17:18

1920 x 1080p at stable 60fps seems to be impressive.

It certainly is, and launch title Ridge Racer 7 is still one of my most favourite games. I've been developing a capture system that does 1080p60 and RR7 is pretty much the only reliable source I had that could stress the realtime compression technology.

SG79

16-Jul-2008, 17:24

user542745831

16-Jul-2008, 19:00

It certainly is, and launch title Ridge Racer 7 is still one of my most favourite games. I've been developing a capture system that does 1080p60 and RR7 is pretty much the only reliable source I had that could stress the realtime compression technology.

digital foundry?

grandmaster

16-Jul-2008, 20:13

Yup, I'm having to build a whopper gaming PC to get more sources to work with.

grandmaster

16-Jul-2008, 21:04

I thought Too Human is UE3, and hence has no AA. Aren't there some screenshots out there?

This UE3 = No AA argument is a little perplexing as Quaz51 has confirmed that The Bourne Conspiracy has AA on 360 but not on PS3 and I'm sure it's the same for several other titles he's looked at for me in the past (he gets a preview of the Eurogamer shots before they go live).

zarbaj

17-Jul-2008, 00:27

Army of Two 360 is 2xaa.

Gitaroo

17-Jul-2008, 09:58

anyone check the new Mirror's Edge trailer on PSN? Its suppose to be the PS3 version since they are only demoing the PS3 version at E3. The game looks alot cleaner than the trailer before, wonder if they have added AA. So far the only UE3 games on PS3 that I know of has AA is Vegas 2, thats probably because its using SM 2.0 and doesn't have HDR etc.

user542745831

17-Jul-2008, 13:26

I just noticed that the 2nd pic is a bit pixelated, so they might be bullshots. I don't doubt that they'll have that option with the inevitable (not confirmed) PC version. DMC4 was fantastic on consoles, and even better on PC with the 120Hz cutscenes. MT Framework keeps getting better and better.

Thanks.

there are some very nice looking (at least in terms of graphics) 720p gameplay trailers from resident evil 5 out there since e3.

could it be possible, that they used a pc version which was running at 2560 x 1440 for those trailers? 1280 x 720 equals a quarter of 2560 x 1440. should be easy to resize, shouldn't it?

the pictures which can be found some posts before are in 2560 x 1440, too.

or is someone there who is able to confirm, that those trailers are created and recorded in real and native 1280 x 720p?

Gitaroo

18-Jul-2008, 10:20

SG79

18-Jul-2008, 14:39

look behind the creator in the second half of the video, you can see the PS3 kioks for RE5. Im just worry about the AA they use for the ps3 version (if they are using the temporal trick again). Hope its not done poorly like Lost Planet because it was 30 fps compare to DMC4 60 fps.

Ah, didn't know that since most previews I've seen were clearly from the 360 version. LP used temporal on both versions, but the PS3 version had other issues (including an uncapped frame rate). If DMC4 is anything to go by, and seeing how RE5 is simultaneously developed (not a budget port), I wouldn't worry.

The DMC4 PS3 cutscenes even ran at 60fps VS. 30fps on 360.

zarbaj

18-Jul-2008, 15:23

Playstation 3

Lost Planet = 1280x720 (temporal 2xAA)

Xbox 360

Lost Planet = 1280x720 (up to 4x MSAA dependent on framerate)

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=46241
:?:

Gitaroo

18-Jul-2008, 19:58

it would be better if they didnt use AA at all for the PS3 version of Lost Planet. Temporal AA hurts the game more than it actually help, also makes the texture looks very pixelated at time. Glad that MGS4 was done alot better, it doesnt really have ghosting effect like DMC4 even running at a much lower frame rate. I think Quaz mentioned that it was turn off when you move the camera or something. RE5 will probably be a 30 fps game, hope its dont better this time around unless they go with nao32 and true msaa in the PS3 version.

2real4tv

18-Jul-2008, 23:53

RE5 was also demo on the PS3 this E3

http://www.gamevideos.com/video/id/20176

look behind the creator in the second half of the video, you can see the PS3 kioks for RE5. Im just worry about the AA they use for the ps3 version (if they are using the temporal trick again). Hope its not done poorly like Lost Planet because it was 30 fps compare to DMC4 60 fps.

This is mostly ps3 verison footage I posted in the official RE5 section(off screen) it has some footage I haven't seen in the 360 verison yet. Server is slow though.

http://www.gamekyo.com/video12299_resident-evil-5-ps3-new-gameplay-video.html

Gitaroo

19-Jul-2008, 14:54

can someone check Bayonetta

http://www.seganerds.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/20080716bayo02.jpg

http://www.seganerds.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/20080716bayo01.jpg

look like no AA

AlStrong

19-Jul-2008, 17:00

can someone check Bayonetta

Screenshots are 720p no AA

zarbaj

19-Jul-2008, 18:13

i think it's pretty early for Bayonetta, we didn't even get to see it running on a 360/ps3 yet.

AlStrong

19-Jul-2008, 19:32

Indeed ;)

Squilliam

23-Jul-2008, 16:13

I've searched a lot of places and I can't seem to find any info - I don't want to derail or alter this thread I was just curious for comparions sake, what the general rendering resolutions are for the Xbox1, The PS2, the Gamecube and the Wii?

If we consider the PS3 and Xbox360 games render at ~720p or there abouts, what would be the standard resolution for the previous generation and the Wii? It doesn't seem like the Wii is talked about much and my curiosity it getting the better of me.

Specifically I guess, whats the most common resolutions they render at - the middle ground, and what did they render at for the really impressive and special examples?

Arwin

23-Jul-2008, 16:45

iceberg187

23-Jul-2008, 17:25

Squilliam

24-Jul-2008, 00:13

Thanks!

zarbaj

24-Jul-2008, 02:47

is Geometry Wars 2 really native 1080p?

pictures:

http://www.gamersyde.com/gallery_8895_en.html

edit: game is coming out next week btw.

Extra411

24-Jul-2008, 07:02

Dr Evil

24-Jul-2008, 08:00

Mostly 480i ... Some games 480p, most of them on Xbox which in theory also supported 720p, a few on PS2, with some weird exceptions like GT4 supporting 1080i also, but mostly upscaled of course.

But by far the most you'd see the typical NTSC or PAL tv-broadcast resolutions.

Out of my arse( but still accurate enough) I'd say that 95% of the ntsc Xbox games were 480P, 4% were 720p and atleast one game was 480i.

Shifty Geezer

24-Jul-2008, 09:23

is Geometry Wars 2 really native 1080p?There's no reason for it not to be. ;)

grandmaster

24-Jul-2008, 10:51

I have a question:
In a game like VF5 which is rendered at 1024x1024, I assume that when it is output at 720p, the verticle resolution is downscaled to 720; however if you play it in 1080p mode (on the 360, as the PS3 version obviously does something different), does the GPU first downscale the lines to 720 and THEN upscale them? Or does it just upscale 1024 to 1080 directly?

I'm fairly sure it'll go direct.

Shots of VF5 (1024x1024) running in 1080p here (http://www.digitalfoundry.org/blogfiles/vf51080p1.jpg) and here. (http://www.digitalfoundry.org/blogfiles/vf51080p2.jpg)

Shots of Ridge Racer 6 (1440x810) here (http://www.digitalfoundry.org/blogfiles/rr61080p1.jpg) and here. (http://www.digitalfoundry.org/blogfiles/rr61080p2.jpg)

Quaz51

24-Jul-2008, 11:18

There's no reason for it not to be. ;)

the first is 720p but this one seem 1080p

Shifty Geezer

24-Jul-2008, 11:30

I meant technically. The first one was released on a 720p only console. Now XB360 supports 1080 output, there's no reason for Geometry Wars not to render to that res'.

warb

24-Jul-2008, 11:33

Still, there are very few 1080p XBLA games released.

Quaz51

24-Jul-2008, 11:38

I meant technically. The first one was released on a 720p only console. Now XB360 supports 1080 output, there's no reason for Geometry Wars not to render to that res'.

there's no reason for all XBL games but all are always in 720p actually, i know just one XBL game in 1080p

zarbaj

24-Jul-2008, 13:05

which is why i asked. :p

thanks for the confirmation, quaz.

Shifty Geezer

24-Jul-2008, 13:29

Okay, didn't know that and it does make sense in that context.

JackJones

24-Jul-2008, 18:23

Has anyone already checked RACE Pro native resolution?
http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=178181

DrJay24

24-Jul-2008, 18:46

Has anyone already checked RACE Pro native resolution?
http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=178181

720P + tons of motion blur? j/k

I notice some bad GTA4-like dithering in some of the shots, especially the first and last.

Scott_Arm

24-Jul-2008, 19:07

I think it says 1080p on the Geometry Wars 2 website. I can't check from work because our new proxy has it blocked.

Tap In

25-Jul-2008, 04:22

I think it says 1080p on the Geometry Wars 2 website. I can't check from work because our new proxy has it blocked.

that is correct it states 1080p res

Quaz51

25-Jul-2008, 16:52

Elefunk in 1920x1080 4xAA

ShaidarHaran

26-Jul-2008, 02:46

Elefunk in 1920x1080 4xAA

Ooh, nice! Just downloaded this one, I'll have to fire it up and see how it looks.

How bout Pixeljunk Monsters? (sorry if you did that one already, I'll search the thread for it now)

Shifty Geezer

26-Jul-2008, 08:39

PixelJunk Monster is 2D sprites - 1080p at prerendered (~perfect) AA. All PixelJunk games are 1080p and antialiased up to the eyeball because they're not doing 3D yet.

MazingerDUDE

27-Jul-2008, 16:58

shots from SC4

http://pds9.egloos.com/pds/200807/27/14/e0063214_488c6963bd4b2.jpg

PS3

http://pds9.egloos.com/pds/200807/27/14/e0063214_488c696504dca.jpg

360

http://pds9.egloos.com/pds/200807/27/14/e0063214_488c6b57b49a9.jpg

PS3

http://pds6.egloos.com/pds/200807/27/14/e0063214_488c6b4fc2947.png

360

seems like the 360 shots got some sort of blur

since the captures are from two separate source, the blur could have been added in the capturing process

warb

27-Jul-2008, 18:10

It looks like there's a little more detail in ground textures in the 360 picture.

wco81

27-Jul-2008, 18:24

Anyone check out NCAA 09 demo's resolution?

Also Madden 09 demo is suppose to come later this week.

djskribbles

27-Jul-2008, 18:45

yeah, the 360 version appears to have some slight blur making it look slightly less detailed overall. but as warb mentioned, the ground looks slightly more detailed on the 360 version. i know its rare for this to happen, but maybe the 360 version has better AF?
also kind of strange that one of the shots is a png whereas the rest are jpg.

Shifty Geezer

27-Jul-2008, 19:10

Yep, there's some vaseline filtering going on. Edit : Looks like a 1.5/2 pixel horizontal blur. The better AF suggestion sound plausible too - either that or PS3's ground texture is much lower res.

MazingerDUDE

27-Jul-2008, 20:24

I think the ground texture is due to the camera angel, as the PS3 ground is more horizontal to camera.

bagofsuck

27-Jul-2008, 20:43

Are both versions of SC4 720p?

MazingerDUDE

27-Jul-2008, 21:28

Shifty Geezer

27-Jul-2008, 21:35

I think the ground texture is due to the camera angel, as the PS3 ground is more horizontal to camera.That seems true enough, that perhaps both would look the same from the same viewpoint. We'll need proper comparison pics.

djskribbles

27-Jul-2008, 21:46

this one's for PS3 from different angel

http://media.cnetnetworks.fr/gamekult-com/images/photos/00/00/98/03/ME0000980327_2.jpg

seems like it's got nothing to do with the texture res

could be AF, or just the camera angel
that shot looks much better. could be either, but i'm guessing its just the camera angle. rarely do games have better AF on 360.

interesting that they decided to add some blur on the 360 version only. its understandable why they did it on GTA4 for PS3, but both versions of SC4 appear to have no AA.

SG79

27-Jul-2008, 22:18

but both versions of SC4 appear to have no AA.

Neither does Tekken 6. Here are some shots released shortly before the arcade version's release in November:

http://www.tekkenzaibatsu.com/tekken6/_arcscreens.php?gid=t5arc&pagenumber=10

The game as some of you might know runs on PS3 hardware, quite literally since the boot up screen has the XMB.

thambos

28-Jul-2008, 00:31

Neither does Tekken 6. Here are some shots released shortly before the arcade version's release in November:

http://www.tekkenzaibatsu.com/tekken6/_arcscreens.php?gid=t5arc&pagenumber=10

The game as some of you might know runs on PS3 hardware, quite literally since the boot up screen has the XMB.
From what I understand Tekken 6 was developed on & for the PS3. even the arcade machine is basically a PS3. reason why it's a PS3 exclusive. I thought SC4 was developed on PC & ported to PS3 & 360 though.

Kelcey

28-Jul-2008, 02:43

shots from SC4
...

Is there a main page that links to those pictures? I'd like to see more comparisons. This doesn't make me happy because I'm getting the 360 version. I like the ps3's untampered version. I notice that my captures from component are blurrier than my hdmi captures. I don't know how good the PV3 is. It also looks like whoever capped the 360 shot also had it going through some splitter (some sony product...). So some of this could explain the blurriness. I just hope it's as aliasy as the ps3 version.

minimoke

28-Jul-2008, 03:38

Can somebody check these shot from InFAMOUS - not sure if they're bullshots or ingame...

http://www.dailygame.net/news/archives/008003.php

Betanumerical

28-Jul-2008, 04:12

Yep, there's some vaseline filtering going on. Edit : Looks like a 1.5/2 pixel horizontal blur. The better AF suggestion sound plausible too - either that or PS3's ground texture is much lower res.

Could it have something to do with the PS3's af being angle dependent and the 360s not being angle dependent?.

The 360's AF is angle independent isn't it?.

Jedi2016

28-Jul-2008, 05:19

Interesting that they decided to add some blur on the 360 version only. its understandable why they did it on GTA4 for PS3, but both versions of SC4 appear to have no AA.
Could it be a rendering issue? Shifty said it looked like horizontal blur, maybe the image is rendered at an odd anamorphic resolution and stretched horizontally? It certainly wouldn't be the first game to do so.

Shifty Geezer

28-Jul-2008, 09:17

It's not upscaled, only blurred, by my reckoning. I can't see this being anything other than an artistic choice, included by the developers to keep the forums amused with something to complain about.

AlStrong

28-Jul-2008, 09:34

not sure if they're bullshots or ingame...

Both. i.e. in-game assets with downsampled resolution and/or high AA/AF levels.

inefficient

28-Jul-2008, 15:54

The 360 version looks like it is stretched/scalled horizontally to me. Look at the level select frames at 200% zoom. It really looks like the loss of detail is due to less horizontal pixels. Vertically all lines seem to be intact.

Looks like classic upscaling to me.

http://i37.tinypic.com/2h4ylg8.jpg

inefficient

28-Jul-2008, 16:45

zarbaj

28-Jul-2008, 17:14

paging Quaz...

wco81

28-Jul-2008, 17:42

Namco isn't putting out a demo? Too bad.

thambos

28-Jul-2008, 18:33

After looking at the other set of shots even closer, my prediction is the 360 version is upscalled from a lower res but with 2xAA. While the PS3 version is 1280x720 with 0xAA.

1024x600 is pretty popular these days. But the vertical pixels seem so well in tact that I want to say something werid like 910x720.
That would be weird, according to their official site (http://soulcalibur4.namcobandaigames.com/)it's 720p for both versions.

http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/3348/sc4site720pao6.jpg

hero17

28-Jul-2008, 18:40

That would be weird, according to their official site (http://soulcalibur4.namcobandaigames.com/)it's 720p for both versions.

http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/3348/sc4site720pao6.jpg

Gaming official sites won't get into the difference between rendered/raw resolutions versus what the icon on a person's TV will say once it is upscaled. If I recall, the Haze devs came on the PS Blog saying the same thing, refusing to acknowledge that the games rendered resolution was being scaled up to 720p-1080p.

That being said, paging Quaz....

catisfit

28-Jul-2008, 19:36

A horizontally blurred 1280 to me. But it's the vertical resolution that's interesting:

http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/4056/sciv360mw9.th.png (http://img516.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sciv360mw9.png)

:wink:

hero17

28-Jul-2008, 19:49

Quaz51

28-Jul-2008, 20:28

probably 1280x960

Squilliam

28-Jul-2008, 20:31

Is that both the Xbox360 and PS3 versions Quaz, or just the Xbox360 version?

liolio

28-Jul-2008, 20:40

does 1280*960 even fit in the EDRAM?

Kelcey

28-Jul-2008, 20:54

Why would they render in 1280x960 (which is greater than 720p)? It's blurring and hiding detail. I'm so confused.

Gitaroo

28-Jul-2008, 20:57

ya, thought a game would look sharper rendered at higher res and why is the need of a blur filter.

Quaz51

28-Jul-2008, 21:08

they use a blur filter, i don't know why, it's suspect

SG79

28-Jul-2008, 21:14

Same resolution for Tekken 6? Found it odd that the screens were 1280x723.

warb

28-Jul-2008, 21:21

does 1280*960 even fit in the EDRAM?
Without AA.

liolio

28-Jul-2008, 21:25

Thanks, I just did the calculation myself and find ~9,8MB
but it would be a weird choice.
The framebuffer is down scaled and then they apply a vaseline blur filter... :lol:

Weird, as the game doesn't look that demanding.

hero17

28-Jul-2008, 21:32

Is that 1280x960 for both versions?

AlStrong

28-Jul-2008, 21:33

Is that both the Xbox360 and PS3 versions Quaz, or just the Xbox360 version?

The PS3 shots are 720p.

does 1280*960 even fit in the EDRAM?

One can fit a maximum of 131072 pixels at 32bpp, 32-bit Z, no AA. e.g. 1280x1024 ala MotoGP.

Why would they render in 1280x960 (which is greater than 720p)? It's blurring and hiding detail. I'm so confused.

A higher vertical resolution will be particularly better for a horizontal presentation. On the other hand, a higher horizontal resolution would be better for defining upright characters or vertical objects.

Anyways, the blur is not from downscaling. Texture detail and edge resolution should be better to some extent. Without knowing the method of screen capture, it remains suspect as the blur makes little sense - like taking a 10 megapixel photo without focusing :s

Same resolution for Tekken 6? Found it odd that the screens were 1280x723.

Some news sites have a habit of uploading strange screenshot dimensions. I wouldn't read too much into minor discrepancies of this sort.

Gitaroo

28-Jul-2008, 21:44

if thats the case could it be namco trying to match the performance and IQ on both system? Maybe they think adding a blur filter in the one running at higher res would make it look closer to the one at 720p.

Shifty Geezer

28-Jul-2008, 21:47

They would be some very confused developers if so!

Kelcey

28-Jul-2008, 21:49

A higher vertical resolution will be particularly better for a horizontal presentation. On the other hand, a higher horizontal resolution would be better for defining upright characters or vertical objects.

Anyways, the use of a blur filter is a strange decision, and without knowing the method of screen capture, it remains suspect.

Ah I see. The capture method is stated at the bottom right of the first 360 picture. The person who capped it runs d-terminal through a splitter (SB-RX300D) which outputs d-terminal to PV3 capture card. I thought the PV3 captured uncompressed as well. But it looks like the PV3 uses PCI and not PCI-e. So capturing 720p 60/30 fps may not be possible over PCI (you guys would know better than me). Also, just read a tiny bit more on the PV3 and it looks like it compressed on the card (I could be wrong) before making its way to disk.

So yeah, if all I said above is true, the capture process could definitely add *some* blur to the picture. Like I said before, my hdmi captures are crisp while my component captures are softer overall.

Anyways, yeah... just a bunch of speculation on my part. I'm no where near as knowledgeable as the rest of you folks here. I just figured I'd toss some info in.

Gitaroo

28-Jul-2008, 21:49

ya, I guess its better to wait for the actual demo, its confirmed to come out after the game is released.

Kelcey

28-Jul-2008, 21:55

Actually, my 360 copy is arriving tomorrow. I can do a direct hdmi capture if you guys wanna see it.

AlStrong

28-Jul-2008, 22:04

*explanation*

Anyways, yeah... just a bunch of speculation on my part. I'm no where near as knowledgeable as the rest of you folks here. I just figured I'd toss some info in.

Your knowledge of the capturing hardware is most welcome!

As for the the 60/30fps capture, I do recall some strange artifacting (ghosts?) awhile back when a 60fps video was converted to 30fps over at Gamersyde. I think it was one of the initial Ninja Gaiden || videos from TGS'07. It looked like perpetual screen blur.

edit: found it -> http://www.gamersyde.com/news_5057_en.html

It's important to mention that the game runs at 60 fps and the video at 30, so 2 images are blended together into one with not so good results most of the time.

(Probably not the same thing :?: )

Actually, my 360 copy is arriving tomorrow. I can do a direct hdmi capture if you guys wanna see it.

That would be great. :) PNG ?

Kelcey

28-Jul-2008, 22:36

As for the the 60/30fps capture, I do recall some strange artifacting (ghosts?) awhile back when a 60fps video was converted to 30fps over at Gamersyde. I think it was one of the initial Ninja Gaiden || videos from TGS'07. It looked like perpetual screen blur.

I don't know what Blim uses to convert his 60 fps captures to 30 fps. I use MeGUI with AviSynth. What I do with AviSynth is have the converter process every 2 frames. So when I convert to 30 fps, I just drop every other frame as oppose to blend every 2 frames.

But what I was mentioning was that the PCI bus may (not too sure about this) be too slow to capture 720 60 fps or 30 fps uncompressed. This would mean that the screen grab we got from that 360 shot had some type of compression applied to it. Even if it was just some compression, I'd expect just some blocking. I don't think it'd blur the capture like that.

That would be great. :) PNG ?

I capture as bmps. But I can certainly convert to png for you. Is there a reason why you'd want a png specifically?

AlStrong

28-Jul-2008, 22:54

Ah, thanks for clarifying. :)

I capture as bmps. But I can certainly convert to png for you. Is there a reason why you'd want a png specifically?

Lossless compression is a little easier on internet bandwidth :p

Kelcey

28-Jul-2008, 23:28

Okie dokie. I'll post a cap when I get the game.

FirewalkR

29-Jul-2008, 00:34

Hmmm... 1280x960... 960*2 = 1920... I geddit, they wanted that res to scale easily to full HD but mixed up horizontal and vertical res and ... :lol:

ps: sorry :cry:

grandmaster

29-Jul-2008, 04:32

1280x720@60fps can be processed uncompressed by the PCI port, so long as you're using 8-bit YPrPb 4:2:2. Full 24-bit RGB tops out at around 40fps throughput on the same port.

I know this as the original Digital Foundry HD card was PCI-X, allowing for backward compatibility with normal PCI but with up to 500MB/s theoretical bandwidth available on the fatter slot. You'll be lucky to get 122MB/s on a normal PCI port, which is how PV3 manages to offer 960x1080 progressive.

I'll sneak up some full-on 24-bit RGB Soul Calibur shots later at both 720p and 1080p. Unfortunately I only have the 360 version right now.

Kelcey

29-Jul-2008, 05:11

Heh, if you get them up early enough, I won't need to stress over whether I'll be playing with that extra blur or not!

Thanks!

Kelcey

29-Jul-2008, 07:50

Teamxbox posted a review with some xbox 360 screens. Here's a specific one:

http://screenshots.teamxbox.com/screen-hires/77558/Soulcalibur-IV/

Here's the index to the gallery:

http://screenshots.teamxbox.com/gallery/1764/Soulcalibur-IV/p1/

The life bars/text don't have that blur over them. Overall, the picture doesn't look nearly as blurry as the shots already posted here. It does look slightly soft though.

AlStrong

29-Jul-2008, 08:44

They would be some very confused developers if so!

Tell me about it! SCII on Xbox supported 720p, but it turned out to be 960x720 (vertical black bars). A rather odd decision. :p

catisfit

29-Jul-2008, 08:51

probably 1280x960

That's what I got. Everybody was chasing a lower horizontal resolution, and not seeing the "bigger picture", that's why I posted the image I did with a :wink:

1280x960, blurred horizontally but not vertically. 0xAA.

Thinking back to the conversation about the appearance of the floor, possibly they traded AA for extra vertical lines to get the ground detail to match up with the PS3 AF?

grandmaster

29-Jul-2008, 09:18

Soul Calibur 4 (360) @ 720p, complete HDMI dump:

http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/2764/soul720p006oe1.th.jpg (http://img512.imageshack.us/my.php?image=soul720p006oe1.jpg) http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/7633/soul720p000hq3.th.jpg (http://img301.imageshack.us/my.php?image=soul720p000hq3.jpg) http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/5341/soul720p001zr5.th.jpg (http://img257.imageshack.us/my.php?image=soul720p001zr5.jpg) http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/3402/soul720p002vd5.th.jpg (http://img296.imageshack.us/my.php?image=soul720p002vd5.jpg) http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/6762/soul720p003mm4.th.jpg (http://img301.imageshack.us/my.php?image=soul720p003mm4.jpg) http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/2127/soul720p004gs0.th.jpg (http://img523.imageshack.us/my.php?image=soul720p004gs0.jpg)

grandmaster

29-Jul-2008, 09:21

Soul Calibur 4 (360) @ 1080p, likewise:

http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/1913/soul1080p006gp6.th.jpg (http://img512.imageshack.us/my.php?image=soul1080p006gp6.jpg) http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/9821/soul1080p000qe1.th.jpg (http://img301.imageshack.us/my.php?image=soul1080p000qe1.jpg) http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/6301/soul1080p001el8.th.jpg (http://img257.imageshack.us/my.php?image=soul1080p001el8.jpg) http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/124/soul1080p002sh3.th.jpg (http://img296.imageshack.us/my.php?image=soul1080p002sh3.jpg) http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/7448/soul1080p003lc7.th.jpg (http://img301.imageshack.us/my.php?image=soul1080p003lc7.jpg) http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/4502/soul1080p004xv4.th.jpg (http://img523.imageshack.us/my.php?image=soul1080p004xv4.jpg)

Gitaroo

29-Jul-2008, 09:29

hm.... there is definitely some kind of blur........

Kelcey

29-Jul-2008, 09:30

Hmmm. These definitely don't look as blurry. So would the only reason why they'd apply the blur be that they wanted it to look like they had some AA in there? Doesn't make sense as to why they'd do it for the 360 and not the PS3 then...

catisfit

29-Jul-2008, 09:57

Those 1080p shots confirm 1280x960.

grandmaster

29-Jul-2008, 09:58

Well there's blur and there's blur. Any one who's played Orange Box or GRAW2 on PS3 has witnessed the full, terrible power of the vaseline effect but that's not what I'm seeing with this game.

-tkf-

29-Jul-2008, 10:00

grandmaster

29-Jul-2008, 10:03

I wish I did, but I'm not due to get it for another few days.

inefficient

29-Jul-2008, 11:19

I agree it is quite blurry. Although these captures are certainly better than the last batch, the actually characters look even blurrier to me now.

I admit with this technique the edge aliasing is less noticable than the edges in the PS3 shots. But the texture detail is shot to hell. All the nice detailing the artists worked hard on just blend into the soupy mix of colors.

Is it just really bad texture sampling? Or actualy a blur filter? Blur filter is kind of pretty hard to believe. I want to give dev team the benifit of the doubt that they are not total numbskulls.

I assume they did the downscalling from 1290x960 to 1280x720 on the GPU right? Maybe this blur is just a by product of a poor quality but fast resampling function they used.

inefficient

29-Jul-2008, 11:29

grandmaster

29-Jul-2008, 11:40

My shots are 100% identical to what is coming out of the 360's HDMI port. I see blur on 1080p as you would expect, but it looks fine to me at 720p.

Shifty Geezer

29-Jul-2008, 13:07

Is it just really bad texture sampling? Or actualy a blur filter? Blur filter is kind of pretty hard to believe. I want to give dev team the benifit of the doubt that they are not total numbskulls.Why does blur have to be a numbskull decision? Personally I think there is some artistic merit to it. It may not be everyone's cup of tea, but IMO a spot of softening can help with 'realism', capturing a more cinematic feel, depending on how well it's done. We don't know what the choices here are, but I loathe to say that all blur effect in games is a gross mistake only a technically challenged game or an idiotic developer will make. In this particular case the question is why blur in the XB360 version and not the PS3 version? And why not render 720p on XB360?

Arwin

29-Jul-2008, 13:27

I guess the obvious answer could be that it was easier to use no tiling and no antialiasing, and scale 1280x960 up or down instead, which may end up looking decent in 1080p and 720p, as the scaler takes off the rough edges automatically in both cases.

That's not to say it could be done much better, but I can see this would be a pretty easy solution.

TheBlackLodge

29-Jul-2008, 13:44

GM: Cracking good effort at a pants shot in that first 1080 shot ;)

MazingerDUDE

29-Jul-2008, 13:48

here are fresh new batch of PS3 SC4 captures

http://www3.telus.net/public/dhwag/SC1.jpg
http://www3.telus.net/public/dhwag/SC2.jpg
http://www3.telus.net/public/dhwag/SC3.jpg
http://www3.telus.net/public/dhwag/SC4.jpg
http://www3.telus.net/public/dhwag/SC5.jpg
http://www3.telus.net/public/dhwag/SC6.jpg
http://www3.telus.net/public/dhwag/SC7.jpg
http://www3.telus.net/public/dhwag/SC8.jpg
http://www3.telus.net/public/dhwag/SC9.jpg

they look just as blur as 360 version

I guess the last PS3 shots I posted here were just from an early build with blur not yet applied

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2007/269/940047_20070926_screen009.jpg

like this one, I very much prefer look of one without blur

catisfit

29-Jul-2008, 14:04

Why does blur have to be a numbskull decision? Personally I think there is some artistic merit to it.

Agreed. Also, games are designed to look best on a TV in motion, not while peering at zoomed screenshots on a PC monitor. I think sometimes we forget that :smile:

In this particular case the question is why blur in the XB360 version and not the PS3 version? And why not render 720p on XB360?

Nobody followed up when I posted this before:

Thinking back to the conversation about the appearance of the floor, possibly they traded AA for extra vertical lines to get the ground detail to match up with the PS3 AF?

inefficient

29-Jul-2008, 14:07

Why does blur have to be a numbskull decision? Personally I think there is some artistic merit to it. It may not be everyone's cup of tea, but IMO a spot of softening can help with 'realism', capturing a more cinematic feel, depending on how well it's done. We don't know what the choices here are, but I loathe to say that all blur effect in games is a gross mistake only a technically challenged game or an idiotic developer will make. In this particular case the question is why blur in the XB360 version and not the PS3 version? And why not render 720p on XB360?

I just think it is generally a bad solution because it defeats the efforts of the artists who created the pixels in the first place. I like subtleties like wrinkles or freckles on a face, cool little engravings on a weapon, embroidery on clothing, and other details. Letting the engine just blur them over just to hide technical imperfections often results in major loss of artist intended detail.

For tighter close up shots it's one thing. I mean even in Hollywood they often add some blur during really close up shots to hide some imperfections.

But when the shot is fairly far and wide and the characters are only using a small fraction of total pixels on the screen I think you should make every pixel count toward detail.

Shifty Geezer

29-Jul-2008, 14:24

I just think it is generally a bad solution because it defeats the efforts of the artists who created the pixels in the first place.Not if it's the artist(s) who choose to add it.
I like subtleties like wrinkles or freckles on a face, cool little engravings on a weapon, embroidery on clothing, and other details. Letting the engine just blur them over just to hide technical imperfections often results in major loss of artist intended detail.Why does blur have to be a choice to cover technical imperfections? Why can it not be applied on top of a technically perfect engine to add an artist sense? You need only look at SD TV to see low-res blurred images can incorporate detail as fine as a single human hair. A subtle blur (half a pixel either side) doesn't destroy much detail and adds a little softness that gives a warmer, more natural feeling. Whereas of course a heavy handed blur can smudge out a game. Having seen lots of 'blurry' screenshots, I find I actually prefer a lot to the brutal sharpness of a pixel-perfect rendering.

For tighter close up shots it's one thing. I mean even in Hollywood they often add some blur during really close up shots to hide some imperfections.In Hollywood there is a lot of subtle blur, because a camera has a hard time capturing everything in perfect focus, especially in motion.

chris100

29-Jul-2008, 14:34

Intersting, I suddenly found the blur filter in SC 4 retail version(360/PS3) makes the graphic be closer to CG-like.

chachi

29-Jul-2008, 14:51

Not if it's the artist(s) who choose to add it.
Why does blur have to be a choice to cover technical imperfections? Why can it not be applied on top of a technically perfect engine to add an artist sense? You need only look at SD TV to see low-res blurred images can incorporate detail as fine as a single human hair. A subtle blur (half a pixel either side) doesn't destroy much detail and adds a little softness that gives a warmer, more natural feeling. Whereas of course a heavy handed blur can smudge out a game. Having seen lots of 'blurry' screenshots, I find I actually prefer a lot to the brutal sharpness of a pixel-perfect rendering.
Urgh, no. If SD was so great why are we all using HD now? Do you also run your monitor at a non-native resolution, just to appreciate that "warm", "natural" feel there too? This was the worst thing about GTA4 for me, that people bought into the line that blurry meant "cinematic" or in any way better and game publishers apparently listened to them. I mean, I joked about it then, but I never thought it'd really actually happen. :(

This is of course nothing to do with DOF or any similar effect with artistic merit, even a general blur can be used artistically, e.g. to simulate some vision impairing event in a game, but when used like this it's just not good.

Are we sure these in-game blurry ones are really 720p? These ones don't look 720p much less 1280x960.

obonicus

29-Jul-2008, 15:06

Urgh, no. If SD was so great why are we all using HD now? Do you also run your monitor at a non-native resolution, just to appreciate that "warm", "natural" feel there too? This was the worst thing about GTA4 for me, that people bought into the line that blurry meant "cinematic" or in any way better and game publishers apparently listened to them. I mean, I joked about it then, but I never thought it'd really actually happen. :(

No no, blurry and orange means cinematic. :D

-tkf-

29-Jul-2008, 15:13

No no, blurry and orange means cinematic. :D

And damn those handheld shots in the movies today, and whats with all that darkness, light things up so i can see what going on. And drop the music so i can hear what they say!

Artistic choices used to hide limited power of consoles?
Or is it real actual artistic choices?

There is a world of difference.

catisfit

29-Jul-2008, 15:46

If SD was so great why are we all using HD now?

Because SD stretched to 42" and beyond looks fugly.

thambos

29-Jul-2008, 15:57

Does the PS3 support upscaling to 1080p for SC4?

zarbaj

29-Jul-2008, 15:58

Does the PS3 support upscaling to 1080p for SC4?

from what i read on other forums, no.

Shifty Geezer

29-Jul-2008, 15:58

I'm gonna put my modhat on and put an end to the artistic choices of blur discussion, which isn't the topic of the technical analysis thread.

Scott_Arm

29-Jul-2008, 16:00

I'm gonna put my modhat on and put an end to the artistic choices of blur discussion, which isn't the topic of the technical analysis thread.

You should have abused your authority and put the last word in first.

Gitaroo

29-Jul-2008, 17:37

I think someone at gamefaqs said you can force 1080p in the PS3 version.

thambos

29-Jul-2008, 18:04

I think someone at gamefaqs said you can force 1080p in the PS3 version.
Hmm. If it's true now I'm wondering how the scaling compares to the 360 version.

I'm a little ahead of myself since we don't have a concrete consensus on the final resolutions anyway though.

Quaz51

29-Jul-2008, 19:41

High Velocity bowling PSN is 1920x1080

hero17

29-Jul-2008, 19:48

High Velocity bowling PSN is 1920x1080

Did you have a chance to check out the new captures of SCIV?

Quaz51

29-Jul-2008, 22:06

i think it's 1365x960 but there are no good screenshot for determinate horizontal

zarbaj

29-Jul-2008, 22:33

Let's assume it's 1365x960 or even 1280x960, what's the benefit of these resolutions?

any idea, Quaz?

drohne

29-Jul-2008, 22:36

does anyone have the retail ps3 version to see whether it's blurred or not? i guess there are captures pointing both ways

zarbaj

29-Jul-2008, 22:38

@drohne:

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1196976&postcount=609

drohne

29-Jul-2008, 22:44

thanks -- i saw those captures, but didn't know if they were more representative than the earlier unblurred ones

Gitaroo

29-Jul-2008, 23:22

I just got the PS3 version of SC4 since my 360 just crap out, so far it doesnt seems to have any blur like the screen shots playing in 720p and hdmi rbg full range. Does look a bit jaggy on a 1080p monitor.

SG79

29-Jul-2008, 23:37

AlStrong

29-Jul-2008, 23:53

i think it's 1365x960 but there are no good screenshot for determinate horizontal

Interesting, that would amount to the same backbuffer space as NG2.

Gitaroo

30-Jul-2008, 01:01

Is forced upscaling to 1080p present ala VF5 and COD4?

yupe, I just tested it and it worked, not sure if its just my eyes when I play it in 1080p it does looks blurrier. Too bad I dont have a capture device.

Kelcey

30-Jul-2008, 01:55

Quaz, I just got my copy. Is there a specific "type" of screenshot that'd help you? I can cap one for you.

Kelcey

30-Jul-2008, 08:33

thanks -- i saw those captures, but didn't know if they were more representative than the earlier unblurred ones

Everything is blurred in those shots (text, life bars). This means that the bluriness is due to the capturing technique used unless the PS3 is rendering the whole frame at a lower resolution. We know (from prior screens) that it's 720p. The same situation can be seen with this 360 shot which was captured through a splitter over d-terminal:

http://pds9.egloos.com/pds/200807/27/14/e0063214_488c696504dca.jpg

Take a look at the center of the life bar (whatever that thing is that's holding the time). Completely NOT sharp. Now take a look at this shot which was captured uncompressed over hdmi:

http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/2127/soul720p004gs0.jpg

Now the middle of the life bar is sharp which is what my eyes see when playing the 360 version. So the second screen is representative of how the game looks on the 360. It looks like there is some slight blur, but no where near the amount of blur you see in the first shot.

So, regarding those PS3 shots, I hardly find them as good representatives for the quality of the PS3's version. Without seeing a clean quality grab, whether the PS3 version has some blur or not will stay unanswered. Unless Namco screwed up and decided blur the heck out of the whole frame or render at a decently lower resolution, I'm absolutely certain the PS3 version doesn't have that much blur.

So to Gitaroo... how does your PS3 version compare to the HDMI 360 720p captures that were posted here:

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1196909&postcount=595

Does it (ps3 version) look as "aliasy" as the previous ps3 shots that had no blur at all? Thanks for coming in and helping out.

Also, I just realized the tone in which I wrote this message may have made me sound like I think I'm all that and portray me as a condescending jerk. That's totally not what I'm trying to convey with this message. Just trying to clarify things if I can. :P

catisfit

30-Jul-2008, 09:46

I'm still getting 1280 for the horizontal resolution:

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/8379/scivpixelcount1wm4.th.png (http://img98.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scivpixelcount1wm4.png)

1920 * 14 / 21 = 1280

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/5461/scivpixelcount2kr3.th.png (http://img253.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scivpixelcount2kr3.png)

1920 * 10 / 15 = 1280

Agreed that there are no clear edges to get a horizontal reading from, these edges are so short that one pixel difference in the judgement call of where they start or end underneath the blur can easily push up the counts to the 1340-1370 region.

If someone could capture a really nice long edge to get horizontal readings from it would help clear this up.

Kelcey

30-Jul-2008, 10:06

I'll do it in say... 12 minutes?

Kelcey

30-Jul-2008, 10:37

Here we go... let me know if they're good enough:

http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/4931/test1nn8.th.png (http://img73.imageshack.us/my.php?image=test1nn8.png)
http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/7717/test2jz6.th.png (http://img209.imageshack.us/my.php?image=test2jz6.png)
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/9439/test3wd1.th.png (http://img257.imageshack.us/my.php?image=test3wd1.png)

Quaz51

30-Jul-2008, 10:38

AlStrong

30-Jul-2008, 10:43

Nobody followed up when I posted this before:

Wouldn't rendering more pixels be more intensive than just enabling AF :?:

Quaz51

30-Jul-2008, 10:44

AlStrong

30-Jul-2008, 10:48

Surely there must be a scene with a particularly giant sword? ;)

Kelcey

30-Jul-2008, 10:57

'eh. I tried getting the sword, but Siegfried didn't exactly swing it in such a way to get a long horizontal shot. I figured using the edges of the ground would've been okay. So if someone wants to tell me exactly what kind of screen is needed, then please describe it.

user542745831

30-Jul-2008, 11:01

hello,

nice research you guys are doing there for soul calibur IV.

just a question between that:

this thread http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=46241 states, that GT5P is rendered like that:

GT5 Prologue (demo) = 1280x1080 (2x AA) - garage/pit/showroom is 1920x1080 with no AA or 1280x720 with 4xAA

from that quote it seems as if the game is always rendering at 1280 x 1080 ingame, even at 720p output and only renders in a different resolution at the garage or something like that.

is that true?

or will it render at 1280 x 720 ingame if PS3 output is set to 720p?

is 4xAA applied in that case, too?

and does it run at 1280 x 720 with 60 fps in replay then instead of 1280 x 1080 at 30 fps?

and what about GT HD?

another question:

could it be that there are more game rendering resolutions which have been confirmed here that actually aren't listed in the thread mentioned above?

catisfit

30-Jul-2008, 11:02

no, for me it's ~1360/1365
don't use 1080p screenshots, they have a double rescale

Really? :???:

Seems an odd way to output 1080p.

AlStrong

30-Jul-2008, 11:06

'eh. I tried getting the sword...

Is Nightmare still in the game :?:

AlStrong

30-Jul-2008, 11:08

from that quote it seems as if the game is always rendering at 1280 x 1080 ingame, even at 720p output and only renders in a different resolution at the garage or something like that.

is that true?

1280x1080 2xAA in-game and 1080p in-garage if you select 1080p

or

1280x720 4xAA if you select 720p

could it be that there are more game rendering resolutions which have been confirmed here that actually aren't listed in the thread mentioned above?Yes.

zarbaj

30-Jul-2008, 11:20

Is Nightmare still in the game :?:

he is.

catisfit

30-Jul-2008, 11:21

Anyway, looking at this 720p shot...

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/3467/scivpixelcount3dt5.th.png (http://img253.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scivpixelcount3dt5.png)

...I'd agree its beyond 1280 and about what you said Quaz.

user542745831

30-Jul-2008, 11:39

1280x1080 2xAA in-game and 1080p in-garage if you select 1080p

or

1280x720 4xAA if you select 720p

so the game renders in real 1280 x 720 4xAA not only in garage but ingame, too and not 1280 x 1280 2xAA to 1280 x 720 downscaling?

if yes, it maybe should be described better in the list of gaming rendering resolutions.

is this the same for GT HD?

Yes.

if i may ask: why? :grin:

it's a nice and informative list. and you guys take a look at many gaming rendering resolutions in this so called neverending discussion :grin:. would make sense to put all the results in that list.

Quaz51

30-Jul-2008, 12:11

so the game renders in real 1280 x 720 4xAA not only in garage but ingame, too and not 1280 x 1280 2xAA to 1280 x 720 downscaling?

if yes, it maybe should be described better in the list of gaming rendering resolutions.

is this the same for GT HD?

if i may ask: why? :grin:

it's a nice and informative list. and you guys take a look at many gaming rendering resolutions in this so called neverending discussion :grin:. would make sense to put all the results in that list.

GTHD is 1440x1080 no AA and 1280x720 AAx2

zarbaj

30-Jul-2008, 12:19

Quaz, Geo Wars 2 is up on the marketplace, 40mb.

you can double check if it's 1080p or not.

I'm interested in the AA.

ultragpu

30-Jul-2008, 12:45

just got the retail ps3 version of SC4 today, the game doesnt seem to have much blur effect when viewed in still. only thing i noticed was a strong presence of bloom or HDR. now only if i have a screencapture device.

user542745831

30-Jul-2008, 13:29

GTHD is 1440x1080 no AA and 1280x720 AAx2

after asking this twice now, i assume that if nobody actually answers that it is running in 1280 x 720 not only in garage but ingame, too when set to 720p, then it is just like that :grin:.

thank you anyway :wink:.

is it usual, that if a game is able to render internally at a bigger resolution than 1280 x 720 that it automatically internally renders at real 1280 x 720 if the output is set to 720p instead of just downscaling the bigger resolution it is cappable of to 1280 x 720 like GT5P or GT HD which actually render in 1280 x 720 then instead of 1280 x 1080 or 1440 x 1080?

or do only GT5P and GT HD do this?

and another question (couldn't find the answer here):wink::

does every game on Xbox 360 and PS3 output a pixelpeferct hud everytime, even if the internal rendering resolution is different to the output resolution?

if not, can you explain why?

thank you in advance.

grandmaster

30-Jul-2008, 13:34

Why would they render in 1280x960 (which is greater than 720p)? It's blurring and hiding detail. I'm so confused.

They might just be doing it because they can.

Let's not forget that Namco rendered Ridge Racer 6 at 1440x810 before Microsoft enabled 1080p support. Now at that time, it may just be that they wanted to provide superior VGA support at 1360x768 for those with standard LCD TVs, but equally it could just be down to the nerds at Namco thinking it would be cool to run a 60fps game at the highest possible resolution.

In the case of Soulcalibur IV we're talking about a 30% resolution increase over the PS3 version (assuming that is 720p).

Arwin

30-Jul-2008, 13:35

Assuming that there is no AA difference, of course. ;)

Kolgar

30-Jul-2008, 13:46

Interesting.

I have two sealed copies of Soul Calibur IV right here; one for PS3 and one for 360. I'm looking for a reason to choose one over the other, and D-pad isn't a concern.

Does the resolution difference make any practical improvement? Does the 360 version look appreciably better? Someone mentioned that textures actually lost detail. What's the real story?

To be honest the D-pad should be much more of a concern than the native resolution (although the blur would concern me if I was choosing between the two purely on IQ)

Arcade sticks.

grandmaster

30-Jul-2008, 13:50

Until there are proper like-for-like comparison shots from both versions, it is impossible to say. It is highly unlikely that introducing extra resolution would lose detail.

zarbaj

30-Jul-2008, 13:58

both versions are good, namco did a good job.

just go for whatever version your friends are playing online.

catisfit

30-Jul-2008, 14:17

AlStrong

30-Jul-2008, 14:31

is it usual, that if a game is able to render internally at a bigger resolution than 1280 x 720 that it automatically internally renders ...

It depends on the developer. Some PS3 games stick to 720p if you have 720p and 1080p selected in your PS3 settings. Some games will use the higher vertical resolution support.

As you can tell, there is a great degree of resolution control between in-game, in-garage etc for GT5P.

does every game on Xbox 360 and PS3 output a pixelpefect hud everytime, even if the internal rendering resolution is different to the output resolution?Again, it depends on the developer. They can either scale it similar to Flash or store the HUD elements directly (e.g. X360 dashboard is designed for 720p).

Jack_Tripper

30-Jul-2008, 16:26

I think someone at gamefaqs said you can force 1080p in the PS3 version.

You can - have it forced on mine as we speak!

:)

Jack

kakunin

31-Jul-2008, 02:23

I'm confused. :???:

Which version is 1365x960? PS3? 360? Or... both 1280x720?

djskribbles

31-Jul-2008, 03:04

360 version is... i don't think we know what the PS3 version is. whatever it is, they seem to be pretty identical.

Kelcey

31-Jul-2008, 06:09

Okay, this is the best i could get with Nightmare's sword. Hopefully it's long enough.

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/7299/nightql5.th.png (http://img243.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nightql5.png) http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/651/night2lt4.th.png (http://img243.imageshack.us/my.php?image=night2lt4.png)

Arwin

31-Jul-2008, 11:12

AA on the PS3 version doesn't always seem to be on, seems to be 2xAA vs 4xAA on the 360 sometimes, or cover the full area. Strange shots. Maybe they are from different video modes as well, or something interesting is going on.

Extra411

31-Jul-2008, 11:12

Looks like PS3 version has higher level of contrast; the highlights are more evident, and the darker areas are also darker than 360 version.

Looking at the background ornaments/floor, it looks to me the 360 version seems slightly sharper.

AlStrong

31-Jul-2008, 11:31

360 has no AA. You are merely observing the effects of higher vertical resolution and downscaling.

Syvere

31-Jul-2008, 11:38

360 has no AA. You are merely observing the effects of higher vertical resolution and downscaling.

Well, like I said the effect is similar. All that really matters that the effect is there and provides slightly better IQ versus PS3 version. The other thing I noticed is that the background textures seem to be higher resolution on xbox. You can see the difference in pic 04 most easily. The difference isn't big but it's there nonetheless.

AlStrong

31-Jul-2008, 11:39

The other thing I noticed is that the background textures seem to be higher resolution on xbox.

This would be due to rendering at a higher resolution also.

Syvere

31-Jul-2008, 11:44

This would be due to rendering at a higher resolution also.

Thanks for clearing that up as well. Looking at that Japanese page they also tested loading times. Quite interesting to see that even with installation PS3 loads a few seconds slower in most cases. I hope they do a new test once the new dashboard update which allows installations on HDD is released. In all honesty 10s vs 8s is nothing. I really must applaud Namco for making a good PS3 port. If you read the previews from last year the PS3 version was in a bad shape at that time with lots of slowdowns etc. Looks like they really spend some time optimizing the game for PS3 too.

ステージ、キャラ 360 PS3 not installed PS3 installed
テスモポリス SIEGFRIED vs NIGHTMARE 12 16 10
エジプト XIANGHUA vs IVY 8 16 10
式神の間 HILDE vs TIRA 8 18 10

Kelcey

31-Jul-2008, 12:02

Hmm. So finally some good comparisons are out. Personally, I like the look of the PS3 version more. The contrast on the PS3 version looks better to me. Though this can obviously be fixed by changing settings on your TV and what not. The second thing is that I'm not a big fan of whatever it is (resolution/blurring) that's making the 360 version look like it has more AA. It just looks... blurrier to me. Though, very minorly blurrier. Not too big of a deal. Maybe that's due to the possibilyt that there's already blur there.

So it is confirmed the are using some blurring now (in both versions)? I really wish they didn't... or at least made some weirdo "AA" setting so you could toggle it on and off. I really don't like the soft picture. It seems like we're missing out on some sharp details in textures.

Jazz9

31-Jul-2008, 12:11

It doesn't seem like there's any blur in both versions (to me anyway).
The "antialiased" or "softer" look of the 360 version is like AlStrong said due to the higher resolution being downscaled to 720p.

chachi

31-Jul-2008, 13:06

The "antialiased" or "softer" look of the 360 version is like AlStrong said due to the higher resolution being downscaled to 720p.
I'm not sure what to make of the difference between the shots here and the ones that grandmaster did, these seem much sharper. Framebuffer grabs? Anyway I think the downsampling might also be responsible for some of the highlight reduction, since it's interpolated down you don't have a 1:1 mapping and some "highlight" pixels may be darkened by blending. The lower contrast doesn't help but I don't think it's responsible for everything. For example in the last comparison shot the girl's helmet seems to exhibit this.

For 1080p (if like has been speculated the 360 version is rendering 1280x960 or whatever it was), the reverse should be true since they're both upscaling but one has a higher base resolution to work from.

DrJay24

31-Jul-2008, 15:29

Well I had to register here after seeing those. Seems like the ONLY difference between xbox and ps3 versions is the antialiasing (or resolution) which is better on XBOX version. PS3 seems to be 0xAA while Xbox looks like it has 2xAA on, whether this is due to higher resolution or actual AA I can't say but the smoother edges are there making Xbox version just slightly more desirable in terms of IQ.

I think screenshots make it hard to tell the difference, in motion side by side is the best way. The 360 sometimes looks flat or out of focus due to the scaling (see pic #3). I'm sure overall less aliasing might be easier on the eyes, but these SS don't show much.

thambos

31-Jul-2008, 18:59

For 1080p (if like has been speculated the 360 version is rendering 1280x960 or whatever it was), the reverse should be true since they're both upscaling but one has a higher base resolution to work from.
I've been wondering as well. 1365x960 -> 1080p would seem to look better than 1280x720 -> 1080p

there's also the question of if the cell upscaling (assuming it's the cell) has any impact on frame rate.

I havent come across any PS3 1080p grabs yet though so I'm not sure. Grandmaster has some nice 1080p grabs back on page 24 (http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1196910&postcount=596) for 360.
I'm leaning towards the 360 version atm since my TV has poor 720p scaling (tends to cut off 1-2" around the border, cant be adjusted w/in screen boundaries)

Statix

31-Jul-2008, 19:09

Any idea on the resolution of these Valkyria Chronicles screens, which are pretty jaggedy?

http://www.gamershell.com/screenpop.php?id=306368
http://www.gamershell.com/screenpop.php?id=284409

Quaz51

31-Jul-2008, 19:14

I've been wondering as well. 1365x960 -> 1080p would seem to look better than 1280x720 -> 1080p

there's also the question of if the cell upscaling (assuming it's the cell) has any impact on frame rate.

I havent come across any PS3 1080p grabs yet though so I'm not sure. Grandmaster has some nice 1080p grabs back on page 24 (http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1196910&postcount=596) for 360.
I'm leaning towards the 360 version atm since my TV has poor 720p scaling (tends to cut off 1-2" around the border, cant be adjusted w/in screen boundaries)

i think the SC4 engine use a software downscale in 720p integrate in the post-process pipeline and only after that the X360 do a 1080p upscale in hardware for 1080p output. the result is double rescale and more blur (if you configure the X360 in 720p the problem is the same, intern software downscale + upscale in the Full HD TV). look the 1080p SC4 screenshot, they are more blurry for me
there are some sub-720 X360 games (like COD4) that use first a software rescale in 720p integrate in the post-process pipeline (we know that with direct framebuffer grab) and use another upscale (hardware) for the 1080p output. double rescale isn't good, it's more blur

for the PS3 version don't need software upscale, 720p is perfectly upscaled in 1080p by modern full hd TV and in one pass of course

Rockster

31-Jul-2008, 20:24

for the PS3 version don't need software upscale, 720p is perfectly upscaled in 1080p by modern full hd TV and in one pass of course

Disagree with the "perfectly" part of that statement. Very debatable IMO. The upscale filters on most TV's I've seen aren't that good (generally only bilinear), and certainly worse than the Lanczos style resampling performed by Xenos. I've performed a number of comparisons using many brands and types of TV's and very few compare favorably.

chachi

01-Aug-2008, 00:45

i think the SC4 engine use a software downscale in 720p integrate in the post-process pipeline and only after that the X360 do a 1080p upscale in hardware for 1080p output.
That would be inexplicable, what reason would they have to bypass the hardware scaling like that? The only reason Ii can think of is maybe they wanted to keep the "2d" overlay graphics (life bars, etc.) the same between versions, but that would be pretty retarded.

Anyway now we really do need some 1080p comparison shots. :)

thambos

01-Aug-2008, 01:48

i think the SC4 engine use a software downscale in 720p integrate in the post-process pipeline and only after that the X360 do a 1080p upscale in hardware for 1080p output. the result is double rescale and more blur (if you configure the X360 in 720p the problem is the same, intern software downscale + upscale in the Full HD TV). look the 1080p SC4 screenshot, they are more blurry for me
there are some sub-720 X360 games (like COD4) that use first a software rescale in 720p integrate in the post-process pipeline (we know that with direct framebuffer grab) and use another upscale (hardware) for the 1080p output. double rescale isn't good, it's more blur

for the PS3 version don't need software upscale, 720p is perfectly upscaled in 1080p by modern full hd TV and in one pass of course
ah, ok. I didn't think of it like that, but that would make sense.

i just prefer to run games at 1080p if possible because for some reason my TV crops the edges when i run 720p over HDMI.

@ 1080p
http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/7586/gt5p1080nu3.jpg

@ 720p
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/1355/gt5p720qy9.jpg

@ 720p TV adjustment menu
http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/8649/gt5p720setupmenu2vu3.jpg

I can move it left/right
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/9527/gt5p720hp0fx3.jpg

up/down
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/9691/gt5p720vp0sj5.jpg

and increase/decrease the vertical size of the image
http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/5552/gt5p720vs100lq7.jpg

but i can't increase/decrease the horizontal size. so I always have the left & right of the screen cropped, or the top/bottom/left/right cropped if i maintain the correct aspect ratio.

it's more easily perceptible at the PixelJunk Eden screen size adjustment. By deleting the save I can reset it to show approximately how much of the screen is cut off when i run @720p.

1080p (http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/4134/pixeljunk1080vf6.jpg)
720p (http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/2295/pixeljunk720nk9.jpg)

Mod Note: Please don't use img tags to post a gallery of photos. -AlS

AlStrong

01-Aug-2008, 01:54

I just prefer to run games at 1080p if possible because for some reason my TV crops the edges when i run 720p over HDMI.

That would be your TV overscanning the 720p signal. Check to see if your TV can support 1:1 scaling.

thambos

01-Aug-2008, 02:10

That would be your TV overscanning the 720p signal. Check to see if your TV can support 1:1 scaling.
only over VGA unfortunately :cry:

sorry about the images. i copied the urls from imageshack (thought they would be thumbnails)

joker454

01-Aug-2008, 02:15

@ 1080p
http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/7586/gt5p1080nu3.jpg

@ 720p
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/1355/gt5p720qy9.jpg

Is it just me or does the 720p image look a bit sharper (texture wise, not jaggies)?

AlStrong

01-Aug-2008, 02:27

only over VGA unfortunately :cry:

hm... can you make sure if one of your HDMI ports can serve as a PC port?

sorry about the images. i copied the urls from imageshack (thought they would be thumbnails)

No prob, although there should have been a couple links generated indicated as thumbnails from IS.

thambos

01-Aug-2008, 02:53

I cant find anything like that in the menu. It's a VIZIO GV52L (http://www.vizio.com/media/products/pdfs/GV52L+FHDTV+User%27s+Manual(1).pdf). I was never able to find out exactly what scaler it uses, all i know is it's made by Genesis.

anyway, sorry about this; sorta lead the thread off topic.:oops:

-tkf-

01-Aug-2008, 08:16

Regarding SC4
The 360 version renders internally in a higher res and downscales to 720 creating a "aa" effect but with a somewhat blurred result(?).
In 1080p it doesn´t upscale from the native res, but instead scales from 720p to 1080p.
This seems like the game handles the scaling to 720p but relies on the 360 hardware to do the 1080p scaling.

Would be interesting to see the results from a VGA monitor.

tahrikmili

01-Aug-2008, 10:34

If these photos are accurate: http://d.hatena.ne.jp/yoda-dip-jp/20080731#1217490078

Then the 360 has a very obvious AA advantage. The PS3 jaggies are pretty bad, especially on character models.

Quaz51

01-Aug-2008, 12:32

That would be inexplicable, what reason would they have to bypass the hardware scaling like that? The only reason Ii can think of is maybe they wanted to keep the "2d" overlay graphics (life bars, etc.) the same between versions, but that would be pretty retarded.

Anyway now we really do need some 1080p comparison shots. :)

lot of no720p X360 game use 720p software rescale integrate in post-process and before add true 720p HUD . it's a fact not an hypothesis (otherwise direct framebuffer grab would reveal native resolution of all sub720p games)
there are probably some reason, the rendering aren't the last phase before the final image. and i think the cost of the software upscale is low if integrate in the post-process phase (particularly for down rescale like SC4, less pixels for the post-process) and is more simple for add sharp true 720p HUD

SC4 engine have a 720p software rescale, it's sure. the HUD is 720p and even the realtime 3D lettering "BATTLE 1 FIGHT!" in the begining of the round is in true 720p, probably add after rendering and post-process (and software rescale of course)
and all the perfect HDMI 1080p grandmaster's screenshots (http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1196910&postcount=596) prove this
a 1365x960 rendering upscaled in 1920x1080 don't look like this, it's 100% sure. 1365x960 directly upscaled in 1920x1080 is more sharp

for exemple in this 1080p screenshot http://img301.imageshack.us/my.php?image=soul1080p000qe1.jpg
the HUD and the "BATTLE 1 FIGHT!" 3D lettering are in 720p upscaled (hardware) in 1080p
all is left is clearly 1365x960 rendering with a 720p software downscale and secondly a 1080p upscale (hardware), no doubt. and it's little blurry because this double rescale.

grandmaster

01-Aug-2008, 13:40

What a shame that we can't appreciate the extra resolution in 1080p mode :(

Quaz51

01-Aug-2008, 14:00

What a shame that we can't appreciate the extra resolution in 1080p mode :(

extra resolution is always good but with a directly 1080p upscale (with 1080p HUD if it's possible) without a downscale before it's really better, sure

joker454

01-Aug-2008, 18:45

Regarding SC4
The 360 version renders internally in a higher res and downscales to 720 creating a "aa" effect but with a somewhat blurred result(?).
In 1080p it doesn´t upscale from the native res, but instead scales from 720p to 1080p.

If the 1080p setup is indeed true, then it should be added to the top 10 list of most bizarre video game design decisions ever, just before creating more E.T cartridges than the number of available Atari 2600 consoles, and just after Atari passing on the NES.

-tkf-

01-Aug-2008, 18:56

Quaz51

01-Aug-2008, 19:14

If the 1080p setup is indeed true, then it should be added to the top 10 list of most bizarre video game design decisions ever, just before creating more E.T cartridges than the number of available Atari 2600 consoles, and just after Atari passing on the NES.

it isn't an exception, even probably a common practice. i verified and it's clearly the same thing for Ridge racer 6 (and probably some other over and sub720p)
1080p output for RR6 is just the 720p mode upscaled with hardware. that is 1440x800 rendering software downscaled in 1280x720, add 720p HUD and upscale to 1080p with hardware, double rescale and little blurry result
all this games are thought like 720p games only (even if extra pixel), at any moment they think to 1080p gamers. they think that 1080p upscale hardware of the 720p mode is sufficient, but it's not. if there is an upscale hardware in X360 it's to simplify devs work (microsoft speach) and then devs work only with just one resolution (720p)

Gitaroo

01-Aug-2008, 19:35

is Ace Combat 6 double rescale too?

Quaz51

01-Aug-2008, 20:13

a demonstration with a perfect 1080p HDMI screenshot of RR6 without compression (you can even see the dithering pattern of the X360 output), a grandmaster screenshot
http://upsilandre.free.fr/images/RR6%201080p-008.bmp

RR6, like RR7, is totaly sharp rendering, no AA, no post-process, no blur effect (look 720p X360 screenshot or 720p and 1080p RR7 PS3 screenshot)
RR6 rendering is 1440x800.

with 1080p output RR6 look like this:

http://upsilandre.free.fr/images/doublerescale4.jpg

i make a sharp 1440x800 test pattern (zoom):

http://upsilandre.free.fr/images/doublerescale1.jpg

if you upscale the pattern directly in 1080p you obtain this, it's relatively sharp:

http://upsilandre.free.fr/images/doublerescale2.jpg

if you downscale the pattern in 720p before and upscale in 1080p after you obtain this, it's blurry:

http://upsilandre.free.fr/images/doublerescale3.jpg

reminder, RR6 1080p look like this:
http://upsilandre.free.fr/images/doublerescale4.jpg

RR6 is clearly a game with double rescale (software + hardware) in 1080p
it's the same for SC4 and probably some other

Quaz51

01-Aug-2008, 20:17

is Ace Combat 6 double rescale too?

no, Ace combat is 1280x720 rendering, no problem in this case

AlStrong

01-Aug-2008, 23:53

Are there any games that scale directly to 1080p on 360 then?

Just to set the record straight for the list -> SC4 360 = 1365x960 with blur filter, PS3 = 1280x720?

chachi

02-Aug-2008, 01:13

Are there any games that scale directly to 1080p on 360 then?
Of ones that software rescale to 720p first, or just in general? Most of the ones that I can remember are obviously upscaled everywhere and software downscaling is relatively new and/or rare.

The preferable thing of course would be to just render the HUD at the native resolution and let the hardware do what it does. Any memory savings from smaller assets would be used up by having the extra frame buffer needed for the software rescale. And of course there's always actual MSAA.

Just to set the record straight for the list -> SC4 360 = 1365x960 with blur filter, PS3 = 1280x720?
No, I think the "blur filter" is their software rescaling.

Gitaroo

02-Aug-2008, 01:56

I think someone mention that DOA4 is running at 1280X1024, is it downscaled to 720p like SC4? Does AC6 has AA btw? cut scene or gameplay.

AlStrong

02-Aug-2008, 02:15

Of ones that software rescale to 720p first, or just in general? Most of the ones that I can remember are obviously upscaled everywhere and software downscaling is relatively new and/or rare. Without the software scaling to 720p I meant, sorry.

jandlecack

02-Aug-2008, 02:43

hate to sound like an idiot but even after reading through and following the last few pages on SC4, i'm still not sure about this:

WHICH VERSION LOOKS or PERFORMS "BETTER"?

also, is the higher rendering res of the 360 version a sign of the ps3 lagging behind again? which was the lead platform by the way, which is the port?

AlStrong

02-Aug-2008, 02:56

WHICH VERSION LOOKS or PERFORMS "BETTER"?

This isn't really relevant here on these tech forums - we're more interested in technical aspects rather than engaging in subjective opinions on "looks" during actual gameplay and video display hardware.

The situation with the "softer" looking PS3 GTA4 being preferred by some despite the higher resolution and AA of the 360 edition should be example enough that personal opinion can be totally independent of technical quality.

Just check out comparison shots and judge for yourself. :)

As for performance, both versions run at 60fps. There isn't much variation there.

also, is the higher rendering res of the 360 version a sign of the ps3 lagging behind again? which was the lead platform by the way, which is the port?You can discuss this in the multiplatform development thread.

thambos

02-Aug-2008, 04:02

Has anyone been able to determine what type of upscale method the PS3 is using for Soul Calibur 4 when forced into 1080p mode?

grandmaster

02-Aug-2008, 07:45

Quaz51: are you seeing double rescale on RR6 on these shots too?

http://www.digitalfoundry.org/blogfiles/rr61080p1.jpg
http://www.digitalfoundry.org/blogfiles/rr61080p2.jpg

I have a feeling that the shot you used earlier might have been a result of driver software scaling from 720p on an early version of my hardware. The shots above are definitely clean 1080p captures.

Also, how about VF5 on 360 running at 1080p?

http://www.digitalfoundry.org/blogfiles/vf51080p1.jpg
http://www.digitalfoundry.org/blogfiles/vf51080p2.jpg

Jazz9

02-Aug-2008, 09:52

Hasn't Microsoft made it mandatory to output at 720p?
So whether the native resolution of your game is inferior or superior to 720p, don't you have to output at 720p in the end to comply with microsoft's rule?

Shifty Geezer

02-Aug-2008, 09:56

Output is handled by the XB360's scaler. You can render sub-720p and as long as you have some form of AA, satisfy the TRCs. Prior to launch a lot of us were thinking all games would render at 720p 2/4x MSAA and be scaled to suit, but that isn't the case.

MisterTwoTurbo

02-Aug-2008, 10:35

Sorry for off-topic compared what you guys are talking about right now. But anybody do Madden 2009 demo's yet?

Quaz51

02-Aug-2008, 11:11

Quaz51: are you seeing double rescale on RR6 on these shots too?

http://www.digitalfoundry.org/blogfiles/rr61080p1.jpg
http://www.digitalfoundry.org/blogfiles/rr61080p2.jpg

I have a feeling that the shot you used earlier might have been a result of driver software scaling from 720p on an early version of my hardware. The shots above are definitely clean 1080p captures.

no, it's exactly the same. it's clearly the result of downscale + upscale and nothing else

Quaz51

02-Aug-2008, 11:36

Are there any games that scale directly to 1080p on 360 then?

all 720p games are directly upscaled to 1080p

all games over 720p (RR6, SC4, VF5) have software downscale 720p + hardware upscale 1080p except MotoGP 06 with a 1280x1024 rendering only for 1080p output and directly upscaled (it's a true 1080p mode, not just 720p mode upscaled like others)

some sub720p games have direct upscale in 1080p (like PGR3, COD3, Oblivion and probably some other), some sub720p games have software upscale 720p + hardware upscale 1080p (like COD4, Halo3, Tomb Raider and probably some other) . front framebuffer grab help to know if game add an intermediate software rescale pass or not
but it's particulary for over720p games that intermediate software downscale is stupid and really penalizing

Just to set the record straight for the list -> SC4 360 = 1365x960 with blur filter, PS3 = 1280x720?

it's not really exact for the blur filter but indeed it's the best recap of the concret result. the result is like a blur filter add on the extra rendering resolution, it's correct

Quaz51

02-Aug-2008, 11:38

I think someone mention that DOA4 is running at 1280X1024, is it downscaled to 720p like SC4? Does AC6 has AA btw? cut scene or gameplay.

no, DOA4 is only 1280x720 rendering

jandlecack

02-Aug-2008, 11:54

okay fair enough, i get it.

btw, does the game run at 60fps upscaled to 1080p on the ps3 as well?

Quaz51

02-Aug-2008, 12:28

okay fair enough, i get it.

btw, does the game run at 60fps upscaled to 1080p on the ps3 as well?

i don't think it's importante to know if PS3 version have 1080p upscale
60fps software 1080p upscale have a cost. i prefer to use my TV upscale. i don't think you can really see the difference (but avoid to use sharpness control of the TV, sharpness control influence the upscaling method, add very bad artificial sharpness during upscaling, it's bad for game. i put on zero for a neutral upscaling)

Jazz9

02-Aug-2008, 12:31

it's not really exact for the blur filter but indeed it's the best recap of the concret result. the result is like a blur filter add on the extra rendering resolution, it's correct

Wouldn't that be a better recap:

360= 1365*960 downscaled to 720p
PS3=720p

Why talk about a blur filter when there isn't one (or am I missing something here?)

Jazz9

02-Aug-2008, 12:41

And just to know, what exactly is the point of using a software downscale to 720p when the 360 scaler can do it by itself?
Wouldn't it look just as good for 720p tv users and even better for 1080p tv users to let the scaler do the work?

Shifty Geezer

02-Aug-2008, 12:50

Wouldn't that be a better recap:

360= 1365*960 downscaled to 720p
PS3=720p

Why talk about a blur filter when there isn't one (or am I missing something here?)Downscaling on XB360 constitutes a supersampled (antialiased) buffer. Upscaling that supersampled buffer constitutes a 'blur'. I don't know if technically it's a blur, in that samples are being averaged over a wider area, but the result is visually the same as a distribution of information across multiple pixels.

Quaz51

02-Aug-2008, 13:10

Downscaling on XB360 constitutes a supersampled (antialiased) buffer. Upscaling that supersampled buffer constitutes a 'blur'. I don't know if technically it's a blur, in that samples are being averaged over a wider area, but the result is visually the same as a distribution of information across multiple pixels.

for 1080p display, either you deem that is 1280x720 rendering with some little SSAA and upscale or you deem that is 1365x960 rendering with some blur filter and upscale

Jazz9

02-Aug-2008, 13:20

Yeah I guess Namco's choice only affects 1080p tv users.
At 720p it makes for a nice "antialiased" image, which was Namco's goal I guess.
The 1080p "issue" wasn't really that important to them

Shifty Geezer

02-Aug-2008, 13:39

The 1080p 'issue' is only of importance in considering the hardware setup of XB360. *Snip* removed inaccurate, confusing comment. Explanations below by Quaz51.

AlStrong

02-Aug-2008, 13:49

...

Thank you very much for the details. I'll add the information to the stickied thread. :)

but it's particulary for over720p games that intermediate software downscale is stupid and really penalizing
Agreed. :(

The 1080p 'issue' is only of importance in considering the hardware setup of XB360. It shows that developers don't have the luxury of arbitrary resolution rendering with hardware upscaling. Namco aren't rendering to 960p and letting the scaler shrink or enlarge as needed, and according to Quaz51's investigation, no game has this either. So now we know something more about the scaling implementation in XB360.

But what exactly is the limitation :?: Is it (stupidly :| ) simple as being related to how the developer wants to draw the HUD?

On another note, what type of scaling algorithm could these developers be choosing :?:

Quaz51

02-Aug-2008, 13:59

The 1080p 'issue' is only of importance in considering the hardware setup of XB360. It shows that developers don't have the luxury of arbitrary resolution rendering with hardware upscaling. Namco aren't rendering to 960p and letting the scaler shrink or enlarge as needed, and according to Quaz51's investigation, no game has this either. So now we know something more about the scaling implementation in XB360.

i don't know if it's a scaler limitation, i doubt
for example Oblivion is 1024x600 rendering like COD4 but Oblivion have front buffer in 1024x600 and it's directly hardware upscaled whereas COD4 use software 720p upscale before, his front buffer is 1280x720
it's more a choice of type of post-processing and hud implementation than scaler limitation (but maybe scaler limitation in some case too, i doubt) and choice to make an optimised 1080p mode or not
devs are rarely perfectionist or lack of time

Quaz51

02-Aug-2008, 14:09

Quaz, Geo Wars 2 is up on the marketplace, 40mb.

you can double check if it's 1080p or not.

I'm interested in the AA.

it's difficulte to prove, not really 3D rendering but what i see is certainly true 1080p, no doubt, the difference is hugh with geometry wars 1

and for help alstrong

High Velocity bowling PSN is 1920x1080 no AA

AlStrong

02-Aug-2008, 14:19

and for help alstrong
Thanks again. I meant to put that in the list, but uh... ran out of time and forgot. :oops:

Jazz9

02-Aug-2008, 14:37

The same site added some more pictures of SC4 with some 1080 pics from both versions:
http://d.hatena.ne.jp/yoda-dip-jp/20080802#1217490078

SG79

02-Aug-2008, 14:48

The same site added some more pictures of SC4 with some 1080 pics from both versions:
http://d.hatena.ne.jp/yoda-dip-jp/20080802#1217490078

The 1080i comparison is a different beast alright. The PS3 version looks considerably blurrier there; a sharp contrast to the 720p comparison.

Quaz51

02-Aug-2008, 15:02

probably add blur in the software uspcale for look like X360 version and reduce aliasing, it's stupid. TV upscale is probably better (and maybe even better framerate)

jandlecack

02-Aug-2008, 15:36

so quaz, i should always let the game run in its native or closest to native res instead of making it upscale yes?

so for SC4 as 720p game, dont make it upscale to 1080p. does that apply to all games or just this one?

Quaz51

02-Aug-2008, 15:51

finally PS3 1080p version is only 576 lines rendering (i don't see distinctly the horizontal resolution but seem 1280 like 720p mode or maybe little more) probably for compensate the cost of 60fps upscale
low res and lot of blur is bad. it's another perfect exemple that FORCE 1080P ON PS3 GAMES IS STUPID!. it's valuable for all game, in this case use your TV upscale quite simply.
if the game isn't automaticely output 1080p it's not without reasons. leave the game choice the better resolution. force 1080p is just for owner of old HDTV incompatible with 720p output

it's like VF5, 1024x1024 for 720p and 1024x768 for 1080p

Nesh

02-Aug-2008, 16:12

finally PS3 1080p version seem 1280x576 (it's stupid resolution, why not 1024x720 for more line ratio like X360 version) for compensate the cost of 60fps upscale
low res and lot of blur is bad. it's another perfect exemple that FORCE 1080P ON PS3 GAMES IS STUPID!. it's valuable for all game, in this case use your TV upscale quite simply.
if the game isn't automaticely output 1080p it's not without reasons. leave the game choice the better resolution. force 1080p is just for owner of old HDTV incompatible with 720p output

it's like VF5, 1024x1024 for 720p and 1024x768 for 1080p
When you mention "force 1080p" are you referring to the Display options in teh PS3's settings?

How do you "force" higher resolutions and how do you let the TV upscale by itself?

Sorry for the stupid sounding question but I dont have a HDTV yet so I wouldnt know

Quaz51

02-Aug-2008, 16:21

When you mention "force 1080p" are you referring to the Display options in teh PS3's settings?

How do you "force" higher resolutions and how do you let the TV upscale by itself?

Sorry for the stupid sounding question but I dont have a HDTV yet so I wouldnt know

force 1080 is when gamers disable intentionally 720p in the setting and enable just 1080i/p for some game
if your Full HD TV support 720p (like all HDTV since a long time) then enable both, 720 and 1080, not just 1080

Shifty Geezer

02-Aug-2008, 16:27

That's so funny! Choosing 1080p gets you an even lower resolution! This generation of hardware is all kinds of mixed up.

wco81

02-Aug-2008, 16:29

That's so funny! Choosing 1080p gets you an even lower resolution! This generation of hardware is all kinds of mixed up.

Which is why 1080p rendering in the next gen would make some sense, so that developers and users don't have to go through these gymnastics.

user542745831

02-Aug-2008, 16:58

force 1080 is when gamers disable intentionally 720p in the setting and enable just 1080i/p for some game

that doesn't work for every game, doesn't it?

Shifty Geezer

02-Aug-2008, 17:00

A de facto 1080p with downsampling to target resolution would be the most effective solution, I agree. However I think there's the thorny issue of UI differences. At 1080p you can have smaller texts relative to screen resolution, taking up less real-estate but being readable. Shrink down to SDTV and you need honking big fonts to be readable! That could still be accomodated happily at the higher resolution though, adjusting UI elements based on target resolution.

zarbaj

02-Aug-2008, 17:03

it's difficulte to prove, not really 3D rendering but what i see is certainly true 1080p, no doubt, the difference is hugh with geometry wars 1
thanks Quaz :smile:

Quaz51

02-Aug-2008, 17:07

that doesn't work for every game, doesn't it?

yes but when work don't use forcing

Jazz9

02-Aug-2008, 17:11

When using a ps3 it's indeed best to let both 720p and 1080p checked and let the game choose.
It's just that so much advertising has been made in the past about the ps3 and 1080p that people who buy both a ps3 and a full hd tv just check 1080p thinking that's the best way to take full advantage of their gaming combo.

grandmaster

02-Aug-2008, 17:28

Heh, if they do that, most games will actually render at 480p :D

Jazz9

02-Aug-2008, 17:34

Heh, if they do that, most games will actually render at 480p :D

A friend of mine had his setup exactly like that and he was sure that all the games he was playing were 1080p... And I know personally of a few other cases too
It's really not such an uncommon story

Jedi2016

02-Aug-2008, 17:48

FORCE 1080P ON PS3 GAMES IS STUPID!. it's valuable for all game, in this case use your TV upscale quite simply.
if the game isn't automaticely output 1080p it's not without reasons. leave the game choice the better resolution.
Bingo. :) I just activate all the resolutions on my PS3 and let the game render at whatever it wants to. I've never seen an example where forcing a higher resolution provides any benefit whatsoever.

Quaz51

02-Aug-2008, 18:32

Sorry for off-topic compared what you guys are talking about right now. But anybody do Madden 2009 demo's yet?

720p but no AA, no aniso

grandmaster

02-Aug-2008, 19:12

Quaz... let's say you're running a 1080p display, but your PS3 is feeding it a 720p image. Have you discerned what kind of upscaling method the display uses? I'm sure you must have a good idea of what your own screen does by now ;)

And would I be right in assuming that Xbox 360 should always be set to 1080p to take away scaling duties from the display?

Strange

02-Aug-2008, 19:24

I remember vaguely that upscaling by TVs are actually done quite well, "usually" much better than what the consoles can do due to better upscaling formulas. can anyone verify that? (which leaves PC monitor scaling a bit less desirable because they don't utilize the same hardware)

I'm also under the assumption that any post-scaling should really be done by the TV, no?

It also makes more sense to me that the TV and the console should really share the burden so that more processing power is left for the console to do more.

Anything wrong with these viewpoints? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

SG79

02-Aug-2008, 20:24

I remember vaguely that upscaling by TVs are actually done quite well, "usually" much better than what the consoles can do due to better upscaling formulas.

It's entirely dependent on the TV manufacturer, and from my experience, Sony, Panasonic and Pioneer scalers are great (XBR4's 1080i de-interlacing isn't so hot though).

I had a 720p AQUOS before, and I always made use of the upscaling for PS/PS2 games on the PS3. With the XBR4, the TV's scaler does a MUCH better job IMHO and with the overscan present with PS2 game BC on the PS3, hooking up a PS2 is the better solution.

Yup, forced scaling is rather odd, but I think that SCIV takes the cake since the resolution suffers considerably. It makes me wonder if the extra year on the home Tekken 6 will bear any fruit with a resolution upgrade and whatnot.

Actually, I prefer running Sigma at 720p even though it's not forced. 1080p just looks too soft in comparison to native 1080p games like RR7 and "most of" T5 DR.

jandlecack

02-Aug-2008, 20:39

el_rika

02-Aug-2008, 20:56

-tkf-

02-Aug-2008, 21:59

that's a question i'd like an answer for as well.

just an observation though, isn't MGS4 upscalled from 1024 x 768 ?

Read the thread

Quaz51

02-Aug-2008, 22:26

thanks quaz, one last thing since you mentioned this game in 1080p is actually less resolution thanks to the upscaling/loss of fps.

what about mgs4? if you select all 3 resolutions which i normally do (720p, 1080i, 1080p), then mgs4 defaults to 1080p. upscaled of course from the lower res 1024x576 or something if i remember correctly.

what would be better here, 720p or 1080p?

i already say, it's simple, the better is what the game choice, its not complicate?
you don't go to change the setting for every game? it's not the goal of setting, you adjust setting one time, not every time

MGS4 probably avoid software downscale 768 to 720 + upscale TV in 1080, directly software upscale 768 to 1080 or other reasons, no matter, rely upon Kojima