View Full Version : Why DRM-holders can't be trusted
Richard
27-Apr-2008, 20:30
http://www.neowin.net/news/main/08/04/27/microsoft-to-nuke-msn-music-drm-keys
Customers who have purchased music from Microsoft's now-defunct MSN Music store are now facing a decision they never anticipated making: commit to which computers (and OS) they want to authorize forever, or give up access to the music they paid for. Why? Because Microsoft has decided that it's done supporting the service and will be turning off the MSN Music license servers by the end of this summer.
MSN Entertainment and Video Services general manager Rob Bennett sent out an e-mail this afternoon to customers, advising them to make any and all authorizations or deauthorizations before August 31. "As of August 31, 2008, we will no longer be able to support the retrieval of license keys for the songs you purchased from MSN Music or the authorization of additional computers," reads the e-mail seen by Ars. "You will need to obtain a license key for each of your songs downloaded from MSN Music on any new computer, and you must do so before August 31, 2008. If you attempt to transfer your songs to additional computers after August 31, 2008, those songs will not successfully play."
This is why a) I'm against DRM-protected content and b) I'm skeptical of companies such as Valve when they say they'll release the content if they ever go bankrupt/end their service.
If you bought music from MSN Music you should burn to a CD and then rip it to MP3 (or your format of choice).
This kind of thing really requres an industry-wide solution. And possibly some governmental entity prodding of some sort to make it happen. If government can be made by industry to carry their DRM water in the first place, then they should also insist that the consumer is held harmless when this happens. Some type of industry organization key escrowing thing.
This is why I'll never go digital distribution(and also just because I like holding what I own in my hands).
This is why I'll never go digital distribution(and also just because I like holding what I own in my hands).Me too.
I'll rather stop using a computer than make peace with DRM. Never, ever.
Well then Down with DRM :)
It is quite annoying though isn't it.
Me too.
Me three
couldnt ms be sued for preventing people from listening to music they heb a lifetime licence for ?
Richard
28-Apr-2008, 18:36
Me three
couldnt ms be sued for preventing people from listening to music they heb a lifetime licence for ?
Well, technically you can listen to your purchased music until the day you die, provided you keep any one of your 5 authorised systems working for that long. That is exactly why I'm skeptical when companies say they'll free content because they can always argue in a court they don't have to. Like Geo said this has to be enforced by an independent party. And to do that, politicians need to protect the rights of all, not just DRMed content providers.
This is why I'll never go digital distribution(and also just because I like holding what I own in my hands).
The problem is not about digital distribution. The problem is DRM. Supposed that there's no de-CSS. When all DVD players are gone, what are you supposed to do to your DVDs? You can't even transfer them into more future-proof media when DVD players are still around, because the DRM (CSS) prevent you from doing so. The same applies to Blu-ray, and all other physical media with DRM.
That is bad, very bad. I am also disliking DRM and movie DRM protection. I find it ridicolous how I cant play several DVD movies on my PC to utilize better image and sound quality than my 400$ DVD-player. I have a TV-out which means 'error error', I have no DHCP which means downscaled HD-DVD/Blu-ray movies...
Atleast AnyDVD HD gives me luck in using the PC as a full media-center.
thats one of the reasons i avoid anything that has to be activated online one day that activation server may be gone
how about all the people who bought online games only for the customer to be shafted when the company decides to shut down the service
eg: motorcity online
microsoft to give them their due open sourced alleigence when they decided to shut down their servers
and left the running of them in the hands of the community
maybe all companies should be compelled to provide an alternative to customers in the event they pull support
ps: anyone want a great online space sim (free)
http://www.freeallegiance.org/
The problem is not about digital distribution. The problem is DRM. Supposed that there's no de-CSS. When all DVD players are gone, what are you supposed to do to your DVDs? You can't even transfer them into more future-proof media when DVD players are still around, because the DRM (CSS) prevent you from doing so. The same applies to Blu-ray, and all other physical media with DRM.I currently have six devices in my household capable of playing DVDs. Plus a PS3 and PC Blu-ray drive I'm planning on buying so that's two more DVD player capable devices. I'll take my chances with at least one of them working until I die. And I think it's safe to say that any optical formats that may supersede Blu-ray will also offer backwards compatibility.
To me digital distribution is a problem along with online activation DRM. You are relying on someone else to store your stuff when you want it. For the ones that let you create backup you're wasting space having to keep two copies of what you own on two separate HDDs or on DVD-R(of which the dye rots after a few years). I'd rather just have the stamped discs on my bookcase.
To me digital distribution is a problem along with online activation DRM. You are relying on someone else to store your stuff when you want it. For the ones that let you create backup you're wasting space having to keep two copies of what you own on two separate HDDs or on DVD-R(of which the dye rots after a few years). I'd rather just have the stamped discs on my bookcase.
Actually, no. In this case, the DRM is tied to the device (the computer). So technically even if the on-line service is dead, as long as your computer is alive, you can play your file. Therefore, this is not much different from the case of DVD.
Having physical discs is not any "safer." Discs can be scratched, lost, or eaten by mold. Since you can't backup your DVD (technically, of course you can do that now with de-CSS), once the disc is bad you have to buy a new one. In an ideal world where DRM does not exist, digital distribution is way better than any physical discs.
This is much different from DVD. Chances are something in the computer will die within 10 years. And since the DRM'ed content is tied to it it will die with it. And what about when you want to move onto a new upgrade system.
Stamped discs will last you a lifetime. Sure you can say the discs can be scratched or lost but why not also say your entire house can catch on fire or is burglazied or crushed under the foot of Godzilla. The stamped discs themselves barring any worst case scenarios will last you a very long time.
And DVD movies are easily backed up with many free and commercial apps(although you lose quality if you backup DVD9 discs to DVD5 since DVD9 DVD-Rs are pricey). But one advantage of stamped discs is that I don't have to waste money backing them up since I can rely on the archival quality of the stamped discs. The only people I've read that backup their DVDs are the ones that have lots of kids always poking around and often end up scratching them.
Blazkowicz
30-Apr-2008, 12:17
there needs to be a law saying that when support stops all DRM music bought by people must be freed. Same when copyright ends but given it lasts 70 or 95 years or whatever your music very rarely drops into public domain.
now the biggest issue I've had with DRM is Valve introducing in-game ads in counterstrike 1.6 which is quite an insult, that would only be acceptable if ads were opt-in or in a free version. (though I have Prince of Persia : Sands of Time free version, ads are very minimal and not in-game!)
So DRM means the vendor can retro-actively do whatever it wants to the product you already paid for.
This is much different from DVD. Chances are something in the computer will die within 10 years. And since the DRM'ed content is tied to it it will die with it. And what about when you want to move onto a new upgrade system.
And what's so sure that DVD players will be around in 10 years? Of course, it's likely to be around. But now consider another situation: HD DVD is physical, stamped discs. Do you think in 10 years there will still be HD DVD players around? And how do you backup HD DVD without breaking its DRM?
Stamped discs will last you a lifetime. Sure you can say the discs can be scratched or lost but why not also say your entire house can catch on fire or is burglazied or crushed under the foot of Godzilla. The stamped discs themselves barring any worst case scenarios will last you a very long time.
Really? I've seen many CD rotten in their cases... and DVD might, too.
And DVD movies are easily backed up with many free and commercial apps(although you lose quality if you backup DVD9 discs to DVD5 since DVD9 DVD-Rs are pricey). But one advantage of stamped discs is that I don't have to waste money backing them up since I can rely on the archival quality of the stamped discs. The only people I've read that backup their DVDs are the ones that have lots of kids always poking around and often end up scratching them.
DVD can't be backed up without de-CSS.
EDIT: I think I should clarify some of my point to make them more clear:
1. DRM is bad, no matter on physical media or not.
2. A widely supported DRM is better than a narrowly supported DRM.
3. Without DRM, digital distribution is better than physical media because it costs less and more easily distributed. You can see physical media as a "backup" of the digital content.
Blazkowicz
30-Apr-2008, 13:27
I believe if you do a bit-for-bit copy of a DVD then it will play fine (CSS is a reading protection rather than a copy protection).
but HD-DVD's, bluray's and other protections use illegal sectors that you cannot copy I think.
I believe if you do a bit-for-bit copy of a DVD then it will play fine (CSS is a reading protection rather than a copy protection).
but HD-DVD's, bluray's and other protections use illegal sectors that you cannot copy I think.
Not exactly. No legitimate DVD players will play CSS protected DVD image files. Furthermore, at least for now there's no way to burn a CSS protected DVD to a DVD-R, since DVD-R do not support the required sector size (CSS requires 2054 bytes sectors).
And what's so sure that DVD players will be around in 10 years? Of course, it's likely to be around. But now consider another situation: HD DVD is physical, stamped discs. Do you think in 10 years there will still be HD DVD players around?
And how do you backup HD DVD without breaking its DRM?I have several devices in my household that can play DVDs and any Blu-ray players I buy in the future will be backwards compatible with DVDs. I'm sure at least one of them will last until I die. And if there are any optical formats after Blu-ray I'm sure those will be backwards compatible too.
And HD DVD is a failed format I don't know why you're bringing that up. It does suck for all those that invested their money into HD DVD winning the format war but that's one of the reasons I waited. There is the possibility of manufacturers coming out with hybrid players for those that invested into an HD DVD library.
Really? I've seen many CD rotten in their cases... and DVD might, too.
Disc rot for stamped discs is rare.
DVD can't be backed up without de-CSS.
Ever heard of DVDShrink? DVDs are easily backed up to DVD-R which are then playable on DVD players. CSS is weak protection and has been easily bypassed by many apps for years.
And HD DVD is a failed format I don't know why you're bringing that up. It does suck for all those that invested their money into HD DVD winning the format war but that's one of the reasons I waited. There is the possibility of manufacturers coming out with hybrid players for those that invested into an HD DVD library.
Apparently you missed my point completely.
Ever heard of DVDShrink? DVDs are easily backed up to DVD-R which are then playable on DVD players. CSS is weak protection and has been easily bypassed by many apps for years.
Yeah, by de-CSS. That's exactly my point. Without de-CSS, how do you think DVDShrink back up your DVD?
If there's some way to break the protection system of Microsoft's DRM, there would be no problem with Microsoft discontinuing the service, because people will just break the protection system and make all their purchased files playable. Just like what people do to DVD.
Looks like the EFF is getting involved in this. Not like it'll do any good but still nice to hear a more visible entity complain about this. http://www.boingboing.net/2008/04/29/eff-to-ballmer-you-o.htmlApparently you missed my point completely.What point would that be about HD DVD? It's a failed format. Why are you bringing that into the discussion? People that bought HD DVDs knew there was a risk it would lose the format war. People that bought at MSN Music did not know this would happen.
Yeah, by de-CSS. That's exactly my point. Without de-CSS, how do you think DVDShrink back up your DVD?
If there's some way to break the protection system of Microsoft's DRM, there would be no problem with Microsoft discontinuing the service, because people will just break the protection system and make all their purchased files playable. Just like what people do to DVD.
I just kept wondering why you kept acting like de-CSS'ing a DVD was a big deal. It has easily been done by even the most basic point and click apps for years. But again, not like backing up stamped discs is needed since you can rely on the archival quality of stamped discs to last.
You missed my point. My point is, with DRM, physical media is no better than digital distribution.
HD DVD is just one example. It's a physical media with DRM. Now it's "failed" so it's likely to be orphaned. Is it possible for someone with a HD DVD player/reader to copy his disc into some other form? Not possible without breaking the DRM.
Saying "it's physical so I'm safe" is just delusional.
It is better than digital distribution because stamped discs are archival quality and will last you your lifetime. With digital distribution you are relying on a host to hold your stuff for you. And what happens when they shut down. Stuff like this may happen where your content is DRM'ed to your computer so you can't move your content to different machines. And with stamped discs there is no need to worry about backups since stamped discs will last.
And once again, people that bought HD DVD knew there was a risk it would fail the format war. And there will still be HD DVD players on the market for the forseeable future. And when there are no longer new HD DVD players for sale there is eBay.
And at this point with the popularity of DVD there is never going to be a time within our lifetimes where we won't be able to buy at least a used DVD player capable device. And it is supported by backwards compatibility in Blu-ray and if there are any optical formats after Blu-ray most likely in that too. So quit trying to act like all DVD player devices can just suddenly disappear within 10 years because that is not true.
It is better than digital distribution because stamped discs are archival quality and will last you your lifetime. With digital distribution you are relying on a host to hold your stuff for you. And what happens when they shut down. Stuff like this may happen where your content is DRM'ed to your computer so you can't move your content to different machines. And with stamped discs there is no need to worry about backups since stamped discs will last.
No. The files are not held on the servers. They are on your computers. The problem is about authentication servers, not the data. You don't stream the data. You just use the authentication server to decode the data on your computer. So there's no "archival quality" or so. You can freely copy the DRM protected files to any storage media you want. You just can't decode them without the authentication server.
If someone finds a way to break the DRM, there would be no need to use the authentication server and who care when Microsoft shuts it down?
And at this point with the popularity of DVD there is never going to be a time within our lifetimes where we won't be able to buy at least a used DVD player capable device. And it will be supported by backwards compatibility in the future with successor optical formats like Blu-ray. So quit trying to act like all DVD player devices can just suddenly disappear within 10 years because that is not true.
That has nothing to do with DVD being a physical media. You can as well saying that iTMS is so popular so there's no need to worry about FairPlay (Apple's DRM) being abandoned.
Anyway, the best way to handle these things is to kill DRM.
No. The files are not held on the servers. They are on your computers. The problem is about authentication servers, not the data. You don't stream the data. You just use the authentication server to decode the data on your computer. So there's no "archival quality" or so. You can freely copy the DRM protected files to any storage media you want. You just can't decode them without the authentication server.I know it's not streaming. What I meant is to get the same archival quality of stamped discs you have to rely on the host server to always have a master copy in case your HDD dies(average HDD lifespan is about five years). And if they let you do backups then you're wasting space on doing backups. And then you have to check up on the integrity of the backups every now and then. Backups wouldn't have been necessary with stamped discs.
That has nothing to do with DVD being a physical media. Yes it does. Stamped discs have the advantage of lasting lifetimes and with the popularity of DVDs there will always be DVD player capable devices in at least used form within our lifetimes.
You can as well saying that iTMS is so popular so there's no need to worry about FairPlay (Apple's DRM) being abandoned.Yes I think it is safe to say iTunes will be around a very long time.
*sigh* I know it's not streaming. What I meant is to get the same archival quality of stamped discs you have to rely on the host server to always have a backup in case your HDD dies(average HDD lifespan is about five years).
Well, you can always backup it to ten different DVD-R, or even to ten different internet based storage. I think this is much better than relying on a DVD disc, storing at a single place.
Yes it does. Stamped discs have the advantage of lasting lifetimes and with the popularity of DVDs there will always be DVD player capable devices in at least used form within our lifetimes.
I wouldn't be so sure. VHS was once very popular. Now it's quite hard to find a VHS player. Back then, Stereo 8 was quite popular too.
The beautiful thing with VHS (and Stereo 8) is, since they don't have DRM, you can "backup" them into a more recent format. For example, there are VHS to DVD service shops. It's also not hard to record an audio tape into a computer, and burn it to a CD. Everyone can do that.
However, with DRM, ordinary people wouldn't be able to do that. Only the DRM holders can do that, or you have to break the DRM. Of course, DVD's DRM is broken long time ago, so it's not a big problem. Blu-ray's DRM is probably also broken (there seems to be a few troubles with BD+ still). However, they are always trying to make better DRM. Technically it's impossible, but if someone made a very hard to break DRM it would be a serious problem.
Well, you can always backup it to ten different DVD-R, or even to ten different internet based storage. I think this is much better than relying on a DVD disc, storing at a single place. But then you're wasting money on backups. Then having to check up on the integrity of those backups every now and then. Backups wouldn't have been necessary with archival quality stamped discs.
I wouldn't be so sure. VHS was once very popular. Now it's quite hard to find a VHS player. Back then, Stereo 8 was quite popular too.
The beautiful thing with VHS (and Stereo 8) is, since they don't have DRM, you can "backup" them into a more recent format. For example, there are VHS to DVD service shops. It's also not hard to record an audio tape into a computer, and burn it to a CD. Everyone can do that.
However, with DRM, ordinary people wouldn't be able to do that. Only the DRM holders can do that, or you have to break the DRM. Of course, DVD's DRM is broken long time ago, so it's not a big problem. Blu-ray's DRM is probably also broken (there seems to be a few troubles with BD+ still). However, they are always trying to make better DRM. Technically it's impossible, but if someone made a very hard to break DRM it would be a serious problem.
My two VHS players still work and I can find VHS players for sale on eBay.
But then you're wasting money on backups. Then having to check up on the integrity of those backups every now and then. Backups wouldn't have been necessary with archival quality stamped discs.
I beg to differ. I have discs scratched by players, rotten in cases, and lost mysteriously. The ability to copy the disc is more valuable to me than a so-called "archival quality stamped disc."
My two VHS players still work and I can find VHS players for sale on eBay.
Did I say "impossible to find"?
I beg to differ. I have discs scratched by players, rotten in cases, and lost mysteriously. The ability to copy the disc is more valuable to me than a so-called "archival quality stamped disc."Well then for most of us that take proper care of our discs that isn't a problem. That player must be real crap if it's scratching up your discs. I'd replace it. If disc rot is a common problem for you check to see wether those discs are bootlegs. Official movie DVDs will have bar codes and numbers in the rim of the disc. Disc rot is rare for stamped discs.
Did I say "impossible to find"?The point is that due to the popularity of VHS there will for a long time be VHS players out there that you'll be able to find on eBay and flea markets so there is no need to worry about not being able to find a player for your VHS library.
AlphaWolf
01-May-2008, 02:30
You don't need to go to ebay to find vhs players, any dept store (walmart, sears etc), electronics shop (circuit city, best buy etc) has a supply. Amazon.com for instance has many different brands for sale (new ones) atm.
DVD didn't displace VHS because of the recording issue. You'll probably still see VHS units for sale for the next 10 years or more.
Ah, thanks for the info. I haven't stepped foot in a brick and mortar shop for years. And I never thought to search for it on Amazon.com.
You don't need to go to ebay to find vhs players, any dept store (walmart, sears etc), electronics shop (circuit city, best buy etc) has a supply. Amazon.com for instance has many different brands for sale (new ones) atm.
DVD didn't displace VHS because of the recording issue. You'll probably still see VHS units for sale for the next 10 years or more.
I know a lot of the major retailers in the uk have stopped selling vhs recorders
Blazkowicz
01-May-2008, 04:11
Yes it does. Stamped discs have the advantage of lasting lifetimes and with the popularity of DVDs there will always be DVD player capable devices in at least used form within our lifetimes.
Yes I think it is safe to say iTunes will be around a very long time.
A lifetime is quite long.
sure you'll find DVD players 50 years from now, but it might be quite a pain. like transfering 78 rpm audio disks to your computer.. you need decades old hardware, have to deal with weird plugs, or you might be able to do it with new hardware but need a reading head made for 78 rpm..
nothing really hard maybe but you need bits of hardware, knowledge, hassle, money etc.
Sure Itunes will last quite long but here we have Microsoft, a huge company leaving out customers in the cold, so nothing can be ruled out.
in the end we can argue about things but it seems to me it's the long lasting problem of archiving data, with change in hardware, storage mediums, file formats etc.
DRM only adds another, big hassle.
With any luck if an optical format is being used fifty years from now it will be backwards compatible with all the preceding optical formats.
Backups wouldn't have been necessary with stamped discs.
I think you're not completely understanding the concept of a backup. Stamped discs are not immune to data loss, especially if they're used frequently or not stored properly. Accidents and malfunctions do happen. If you think the contents are important, you should make a backup.
Stamped discs have the advantage of lasting lifetimes and with the popularity of DVDs there will always be DVD player capable devices in at least used form within our lifetimes.
I don't know what you count as "lifetimes" but the CD has only been around for ~25 years, DVDs less than half that. Where is the proof that they last much longer? In fact there is proof that a certain fraction of discs did not last that long (and I'm obviously not counting intentional destruction).
You even admit that disc rot does exist, just that it's rare. That's not going to comfort someone who just lost an equally rare disc to it, is it?
I understand when people want to backup rare treasured content but in this context we're talking in general about which format lasts longer. And yes I understand that scratches and accidents do happen but those are worst case scenarios. Take care of your discs, don't leave them out in the open when not being used, and there's a much lesser chance of that happening.
Stamped discs are widely recognized to last lifetimes. The data on the discs are stamped onto it so there's no dye to decay. What constitutes disc rot in most rare cases is the adhesive used to hold the parts of a disc together fails but again that's rare. So far ever since stamped discs have existed despite rare cases of disc rot and a widespread case of manufacturers using cheap adhesive on early laserdiscs they have lasted.
I understand when people want to backup rare treasured content but in this context we're talking in general about which format lasts longer.
Actually I was not talking about this. But since you want to talk about this...
Stamped discs are widely recognized to last lifetimes. The data on the discs are stamped onto it so there's no dye to decay.
The aluminum layer on a CD can be oxidized because it's directly exposed to the air. It actually happened relatively frequently. I personally have several CD fell victim to this. DVD is a bit better because the aluminum layer is between two plastic discs but it's still not completely immune.
Of course, you can claim that with careful storage a CD or DVD can last quite long. That's true, for almost anything (carefully kept paper can last thousands of years). But a copyable digital data can last forever by this definition.
The oxidation of the reflective layer happens from a chemical reaction with the adhesive. Cheap adhesive made this a widespread problem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laserdisc#Laser_rot) with early Laserdiscs. Like I said in my previous post the rare cases of disc rot are due to problems arising from the adhesive.
If disc rot happens to you frequently I would check to see if those discs are bootlegs. Although I'm guessing you're just exaggerating to try to prove your point. Of the hundreds of CDs/DVDs I have with some of those CDs dating from the early '90s all of them are still working. Although statistically with the amount of discs I'm amassing I do know I'm probably going to experience disc rot at least once.
If disc rot happens to you frequently I would check to see if those discs are bootlegs. Although I'm guessing you're just exaggerating to try to prove your point. Of the hundreds of CDs/DVDs I have with some of those CDs dating from the early '90s all of them are still working. Although statistically with the amount of discs I'm amassing I do know I'm probably going to experience disc rot at least once.
I don't know where you lives, but at where I lives even aluminum antennas rot after a year of use. It's nice for you to not have the rotten CD problem, but for me I'd like to have a more reliable solution.
Basically I've seen two different rotten CD problem: the first (and the more common) one is rotten from the edge. To my understanding, this is due to incorrect manufacturing method, but unfortunately quite common in earlier discs. The second one is more bizarre, that many small holes develop on the data side (the aluminum). These are all from large companies such as Polygram or Decca.
so far ive had 2 cdr's become unreadable, although that could also be down to scratches
so far ive had 2 cdr's become unreadable, although that could also be down to scratchesRecordable media are different from stamped discs. Recordable media record with a dye and they are expected to rot after a few years.
I understand when people want to backup rare treasured content but in this context we're talking in general about which format lasts longer.
It's obvious that DVDs last longer on average than HDDs. It is not so obvious that the same is true for other (future) storage technologies. Some flash memory chips have a guaranteed data retention period exceeding 20 years even under harsh storage conditions.
It's not clear at all that DVDs last longer than digitally distributed content in general. Copying files from an old computer or storage device to a new one when you upgrade comes pretty naturally. Add to that the convenience that simply having all your content as files on a storage device provides, and I don't think many people will miss physical media in the future.
If you want the content to last "forever" you need backups, even for DVDs. It's hardly worth mentioning that creating a backup of a HDD is a far easier process than creating a backup of stamped discs. And the latter may not even be possible if the discs are DRM-protected.
And yes I understand that scratches and accidents do happen but those are worst case scenarios.
Same thing for HDD failures.
Basically I've seen two different rotten CD problem: the first (and the more common) one is rotten from the edge. To my understanding, this is due to incorrect manufacturing method, but unfortunately quite common in earlier discs. The second one is more bizarre, that many small holes develop on the data side (the aluminum). These are all from large companies such as Polygram or Decca.
That happened to my Metallica and Justice For All album. It was very annoying as it started skipping and at first I could not figure out why until I held it up to the light and could see little pinholes of light streaming through...
The sad thing is, there is a great deal of hypocrisy with the IP owners. On the one hand they want to insist that the license is all and the media nearly irrelevant, yet on the other they are increasingly changing their business models towards finding more and more ways to make us b/u/y/ license the same content over and over again for different formats and minor tweaks. The two concepts are really incompatible.
It's not clear at all that DVDs last longer than digitally distributed content in general. Copying files from an old computer or storage device to a new one when you upgrade comes pretty naturally. Add to that the convenience that simply having all your content as files on a storage device provides, and I don't think many people will miss physical media in the future.Except when you just carry over your HDD to your new upgrade system.
If you want the content to last "forever" you need backups, even for DVDs. It's hardly worth mentioning that creating a backup of a HDD is a far easier process than creating a backup of stamped discs. And the latter may not even be possible if the discs are DRM-protected.Creating a backup of an HDD may be easier but it certainly isn't cheaper. You not only have to spend money creating a backup but also checking the integrity of the backup every now and then. As for the format of the backups DVD-Rs are cheaper per GB than HDD but DVD-Rs record with a dye which are expected to decay and HDDs cost more per GB and have an average lifespan of about five years. The point is which format gives you the longest longevity in general without having to waste money on backups.
Same thing for HDD failures.No. With discs getting scratched or lost those are accidents that could've been averted with more care. And disc rot is rare(at least for the quarter century that stamped discs have existed and counting). But you can't do anything about your HDD inevitably dying on you most likely within 10 years of usage. Here (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070225-8917.html) is a Google study on HDD failure(temps don't impact lifespan).
Creating a backup of an HDD may be easier but it certainly isn't cheaper. You not only have to spend money creating a backup but also checking the integrity of the backup every now and then.
And that's not true for creating a backup of DVDs? Or are you just buying everything twice?
Money spent on backups is generally not wasted.
No. With discs getting scratched or lost those are accidents that could've been averted with more care. And disc rot is rare(at least for the quarter century that stamped discs have existed and counting). But you can't do anything about your HDD inevitably dying on you most likely within 10 years of usage. Here (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070225-8917.html) is a Google study on HDD failure(temps don't impact lifespan).
The vast majority of HDDs used in home PCs never fail in their active lifetime, they just become obsolete and get replaced by a bigger model eventually.
Saying that all accidents or scratches could have been averted with more care is simply not true (and also beside the point). If your DVD player malfunctions and scratches a disc there is absolutely nothing you could have done about it.
Richard
03-May-2008, 20:56
The sad thing is, there is a great deal of hypocrisy with the IP owners. On the one hand they want to insist that the license is all and the media nearly irrelevant, yet on the other they are increasingly changing their business models towards finding more and more ways to make us b/u/y/ license the same content over and over again for different formats and minor tweaks. The two concepts are really incompatible.
That's a great point Geo. I've recently finished ripping my entire music CD collection to MP3 @ 320kbits. Although I'll still keep the CDs obviously I hope the DRM police will not knock on my door when I eventually use the music on my MP7 Player in 2025.
I want to do the same with my movie/music DVD collection but it's sizeable and will probably need a few extra HDDs. It's my hope (but not my expectation) that the MPAA, etc will start to focus on blu-ray and forget about DVD ripping.
That's one of the reasons why UMD failed I think. The small screen and unconfortable viewing were problems but I believe people just didn't feel right paying twice for the same movie.
And that's not true for creating a backup of DVDs? Or are you just buying everything twice?
Money spent on backups is generally not wasted.No, the point is which format would last longer without backups. I think it's safe to say most people do not bother with backups or are very selective on what they spend money on backing up.
The vast majority of HDDs used in home PCs never fail in their active lifetime, they just become obsolete and get replaced by a bigger model eventually.Oh really? That's quite the assumption. Maybe with people that aren't computer enthusiasts but it's clear from reading on forums that many computer enthusiasts salvage hard drives(and sound cards) from their old systems. And even when people completely upgrade their computers without carrying anything over they almost always live on with someone else through a giveaway or cheap sale.
And many non-computer enthusiasts I've seen are fine with old computers since they don't do system intensive tasks. From what I've seen most computer casuals only upgrade when they want the sleeker look of a new computer or want to change the form from a PC tower to a laptop for school or travelling. And even then many computer enthusiasts are fine with old systems if they don't do high end gaming(especially with the Linux crowd that pride themselves on the wide range of hardware that OS can run on).
Saying that all accidents or scratches could have been averted with more care is simply not true (and also beside the point). If your DVD player malfunctions and scratches a disc there is absolutely nothing you could have done about it.
And how often do DVD players scratch up discs? I have never heard of that being a common problem. Only with the x360 when you move it while it's reading a disc. Disc players have a mechanism that holds the disc in place above the laser. The reason the x360 scratches discs when you move it is because the safeguards that would've been in place to prevent disc scratching were removed to save money(mere cents per unit). Although you shouldn't move a disc drive while it's running anyway. But go ahead, come up with more hypotheticals and assumptions or point out minority failure rates to try to prove your point.
I think some of us should remind ourselves that in the end it comes down to preference. You may prefer the convenience of one format to another. It doesn't necessarily have to be the best in all areas in order for you to justify it to yourself. No need to come up with things willy nilly to try to justify your preference.
No, the point is which format would last longer without backups.
Maybe you think that's the point. I don't.
But go ahead, come up with more hypotheticals and assumptions or point out minority failure rates to try to prove your point.
Just go on believing that all accidents can be prevented with just enough care. It won't be my loss.
Blazkowicz
05-May-2008, 04:28
having lost three "big" (at the time) hard drives and countless old ones which didn't matter I can tell that every hard drive fails. You never know when, but you can consider it can fail at any time when it's about three-year-old.
off course there's not real solution yet besides buying other hard drives.
regarding non computer enthusiasts, I know someone who lost many hundreds of photos (family, trips in Africa..). That was a three-year-old, 80GB, mostly empty drive, replaced with a cheap 250GB one. The computer is still fast (athlon XP w/ 512MB and no crapware)
Maybe you think that's the point. I don't.Any format can have backups. But it's safe to say most people do not bother with backups and even when people do backup it's not for everything(usually only personal items and work). So it's not fair to talk about a format assuming as one of its advantages that everyone does a backup of everything.
Just go on believing that all accidents can be prevented with just enough care. It won't be my loss.It would be arrogance to believe that all accidents only happen from carelessness. Accidents happen with anything. Just stop pretending like they're a common occurrence. I lost a disc to scratching back when I was lazy about putting them back in their cases when I was done with them and would just lay them out in the open. Ever since I've been more conscious of putting them back in their cases when I'm done with them it hasn't happened since although I know an accident is still a possibility as it is with anything.
Any format can have backups. But it's safe to say most people do not bother with backups and even when people do backup it's not for everything(usually only personal items and work). So it's not fair to talk about a format assuming as one of its advantages that everyone does a backup of everything.
Don't put words in my mouth. Migrating data from an old system to a new one when upgrading isn't the same as making a backup.
Just stop pretending like they're a common occurrence.
I never did. I only disputed your claim that "those are accidents that could've been averted with more care".
Don't put words in my mouth. Migrating data from an old system to a new one when upgrading isn't the same as making a backup.All you have to do is read computer forums to know many computer enthusiasts carry over old HDDs and soundcards to their new systems. And casuals will use computers for a long time because they don't do system intensive tasks. And even when people do a full upgrade many of their old computers still live on with others as giveaways or secondhand sales.
I never did. I only disputed your claim that "those are accidents that could've been averted with more care".Treating your stuff with more care will ensure a lesser chance of an accident happening. But there is still a chance of an accident happening with anything.
Richard
07-May-2008, 15:32
You guys may want to take this into a "digital vs physical" thread.
soylent
10-May-2008, 03:57
You guys may want to take this into a "digital vs physical" thread.
HDD and sundry optical discs both store data digitally. Why shouldn't hard drives be regarded as physical?
Wouldn't a better dichotomy focus on the portable/specialized nature of optical discs vs. the non-portable/generic storage nature of HDDs?
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