Joshua's Late 2007 Upgrade Discussion

[Acert93]

Ok, this weekend I got a decent case for free (after MIR) and some OCZ Platinum Rev. 2 (2 x 1GB DDR2 800) for cheap ($33 after MIR)... so I guess the upgrade game is on.

I have a good idea of what I will be doing for the GPU (pretty killer deal (http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/products/Games/productdetail.aspx?c=us&l=en&s=dhs&cs=29&sku=A1348853)), so all I need is a CPU and MB. What CPU I get will dictate my MB options, so I am looking for some general input here.

My main goal is something that is performant and cost effective today that leaves the door open for:

- Faster, quadcore (45nm?) CPU in the future
- Faster GPU in 18-24 months (when the R700/G90 series do their refresh on 45nm, ala the 8800GT/HD3850)

The PCIe slot will leave both ATI/NV options open, but whatever CPU I choose will limit future options. Right now I lean toward Intel (sorry AMD friends) because I like what I see on the Core 2 Quad side. The Q6600 is a great looking CPU that overclocks really well, and with 45nm chips coming shortly it looks like Intel has legs on the architecture. Intel has also been pretty aggressive, with 45nm transitions well in effect (Penryn'07, Nehalem'08) and 32nm (Westmere'09, Sandy Bridge'10) seemingly on route for good scaling in performance and retail cost (of course my MB may go bye-bye with new sockets... but for now it looks like if apps&games begin using 4 or 8 cores in the next 2-3 years there will be some nice quadcore 65nm/45nm LGA 775 CPUs to pick up). Typically I am not big on CPU upgrades (as socket and MBs change so fast), but with multicore processors, it is realistic to be able to double performance cheaply down the road to get some more mileage out of my base hardware.

So my goal is Bang-for-Buck with an eye for upgrades. Here is what the current CPU market looks like price wise:

Q6600 (C2Q, 2.4GHz, 1066MHz FSP, 8MB L2) $280

E6850 (C2D, 3GHz, 1333MHz FSB, 4MB L2) $290
E6750 (C2D, 2.66GMHz, 1333MHz FSB, 4MB L2) $190
E6550 (C2D, 2.33GHz, 1333MHz FSB, 4MB L2) $170
(E4600, 4500, and 4400 with 2MB L2 in the 2-2.4GHz range, 800MHz FSB, for $130-$150; any great/stable overclocking chips?)

X2 6400+ (3.2GHz, 2x1MB L2, 90nm) $180
X2 6000+ (3.0GHz, 2x1MB L2, 90nm) $160
X2 5600+ (2.8GHz, 2x1MB L2, 90nm) $140
X2 5000+ (2.6GHz, 2x512KB L2, 65nm) $130
X2 5200+ (2.6GHz, 2x1MB L2, 90nm) $120
X2 5200+ (2.7GHz, 2x512KB L2, 90nm) $110
X2 5000+ (2.6GHz, 2x512KB L2, 90nm) $110

Some benchies: http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=3012

It really looks like the e6750 is a great bang-for-buck. It pretty much tops the X2 series for the same price as the 6400+. And there are the C2Q (with 45nm variants soon) waiting in the wings, so a cheap performant upgrade down the road looks very possible. I hear it overclocks well as well, but I always wonder: how stable and how cool on air? I have read that the 65nm X2 5000+ (2.6GHz) OCs well, but it has less cache and is the $50 different worth the platform/performance differences?

Are there any cheap AM2 or LGA 775 chips that typically OC very well and are stable and cool worth looking at? Sometimes you get binning of chips with favorable multipliers (early 90nm Athlons and the P4c 2.4GHz come to mind).

My friend has been big on the Gigabyte GA-P35 MB. It is cheap ($90) (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128059), reviews at NewEgg and Overclock.net indicate (http://www.overclock.net/intel-motherboards/254734-gigabyte-ga-p35-ds3l-thread.html)it OCs really well, but is missing some of the trimmings (SLI; I don't care here), is missing RAID, and is missing FireWire.

Any guidance on MBs?

Finally, Skyring pointed out a deal for $208 8800GT Overclocked (660MHz) at Dell (http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/products/Games/productdetail.aspx?c=us&l=en&s=dhs&cs=29&sku=A1348853).

All in all, it looks like right now is a good time to get good bang-for-buck upgrade for a PC. I use my PC a lot, and stuff like video encoding or the weekend CoD4 excursion, push my system. Lately I have been asked into a couple internal PC game betas and my 6800GT just does not cut it for unoptimized code. And while the $520 for the upgrade is a lot, I use my PC a lot for school, work, and play and will be selling my old system (http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=45357) to make up the price difference (basically sub-$300 upgrade after moving the extra parts).

Thanks for feedback :) Right now I have my eye on the 8800GT deal and a C2D E6750, but I am easily swayed.

Ps- The upgrade actually may take place in early 2008 :P

[Entropy]

You seem to have made your market research.

It is a somewhat iffy time to buy into a platform - Nehalem is coming in 2nd half of 2008, and AM3 is coming, uhm, sometime in the future that I wouldn't dare speculate on, but is promised to be fairly soon. Which means that I question your whole premise of buying now to upgrade later, rather than your choices per se, which seem quite reasonable.

For ideological reasons I'd propose keeping the door open for AMD, because nobody except Intel stands to gain if AMD becomes too weak, but if the small percentages matter, there is no question that Intel offers a more compelling platform at the moment, particularly if, like me, you care as much about power draw/performance as price/performance.

So - think about the "I won't upgrade until it's time for a completely new platform" option as well, because new platforms will be here quite soon, and sinking good money into an aging framework may not seem like such a great idea then. Buy something that you're happy with right now. For gaming purposes (most purposes actually outside encoding and some simple filter/modelling tasks), dual core is a better value proposition. The E6750/E6550 are the price/performance champs. The Q6600 is unlikely to ever really justify its extra cost, but you may enjoy having it anyway for purely tech-geek reasons. :)

If you don't suffer too badly from e-penis angst, the setup you are proposing will likely serve you well for a long time.

[Acert93]

And to throw a nice curveball into all of this, according to TechConnect Magazine (http://www.tcmagazine.com/comments.php?shownews=16193&catid=2) Intel's 45nm CPUs are coming soon:

http://www.tcmagazine.com/images/news/Hardware/Intel_45nm_CPU_prices_01.jpg

Nearly 15% clock and 50% L2 cache for the same cost (and potentially cooler and less power hungry... better overclocker?) for the E8400 compared to the E6750 may be a reason to delay... slightly.

[Skrying]

Looks like Dell might have sold out of the MSI cards, or simply wasn't expecting the huge influx of order they surely got. Anyway, they still have an XFX 8800GT up for $235 right now which is still a tremendous deal. Here's the link. (http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/products/Games/productdetail.aspx?c=us&l=en&s=dhs&cs=29&sku=A1350995) This card does have the benefit of having a lifetime warranty. Slower default core however, but even the most minor of OC'ing and you'll reach the levels that were on the MSI.

[Acert93]

They said my MSI will be shipping around the 10th :)

Edit: My wife hates you! :P

[Skrying]

They said my MSI will be shipping around the 10th :)

Edit: My wife hates you! :P

Haha! Tell her I said sorry. Try to get her to view it as saving a lot instead of spending something you might not have before!

[acaeus]

I have just build my box (3 weeks ago) and went through similar dilemas.

What I've got:

Q6600 (G0 stepping)
Scythe Mine Cooler
Abit IP35 Pro
Mushkin 4gb DDR2 800
CM690 case
620HX corsair PSU
MSI 8600GTS "budget" GPU
Barracuda 320Gb
XtremeMusic

(total ~$1000)
-------
An aftermarket cooler is a must do IMO, for the Q6600. With the Scythe Mine (Best cooler IMO - lightweight/pushpins/not that large/performance) which is a $20 investiment, you can run your Q6600 at 3ghz. I'm seeing 50C under load (prime) and 31C idle, so i could prob go 3.2ghz without issues.

The Abit IP35 Pro is just amazing (for OCing specially), and due to its size it fits most CPU Coolers and GPUs. The Gigabyte DS3R (dunno about the one you mention) line is a little on the small size so fitting aftermarket coolers and/or large GPUs could become a problem.

The Cooler Master Case CM690 is really great, spacious, cheap, looks great, and provides good cable management and comes with 3 fans (you can add a lot more). It's also a "large" mid case, which helps for OCing.

Anyway, I'd only change two things if I had to do everything again: 1. I'd buy G.Skill RAM cause they are cheaper (they were out on egg). 2. I'd have bought the VX550 Corsair instead of the HX620 just cause there is a reported problem with the ABIT IP35 boards and Corsair/Seasonic PSU (the VX series isn't Seasonic). But I didn't have any problem (perhaps not that common), both work flawlessly (love the PSU also - very quiet).

Persoanlly, I think it's a really great time to buy HW, prices are good (for the 65nm intel) cause of the new line on the horizon. I went for budget GPU though, i hope I'll be able to replace my GPU a couple times before I have to replace the CPU/Mobo (wishful thinking I guess). better CPUs/components are always around the corner, but the good deals are usually right before the new lines come out.

[Skrying]

Interesting choices, odd that you'd go with a 8600 GTS on that system, seems like the rest of the components are a big waste unless you're doing something that's very system taxing besides gaming.

[acaeus]

Interesting choices, odd that you'd go with a 8600 GTS on that system, seems like the rest of the components are a big waste unless you're doing something that's very system taxing besides gaming.

For a little more than $100 (after MIR), the 8600gts was an easy choice for me. It is fanless (I have good airflow in that case and with 120mm fans noise isn't a concern) and runs Bioshock @ max settings. I like RTS and turn based games that are very CPU intensive, not so much GPU.

For now, yes, I'd agree with you. But I'm applying what I'm seeing server-wise here at work. What seems to be the future concerning CPUs and technology.
I can, for instance, have the box as a file server (for the PS3) without much concern while playing games. The 8600GTS is just enough for my current needs, and then I perhaps will be able to upgrade this piece for cheap in a year or so.

I bet development will quickly move towards multithreading designs since even notebooks now have dual core cpus. For example, if a company wants to develop a MMO that can steal some or most of WoW subscribers in say 2008, they may expect better or even multicore CPUs to be available, but they cannot expect expensive GPUs.

[Skrying]

There's no way in hell a 8600GTS runs Bioshock at max settings...

[digitalwanderer]

There's no way in hell a 8600GTS runs Bioshock at max settings...
QFT, unless he games at 640x480 and doesn't use AA/AF.

[acaeus]

QFT, unless he games at 640x480 and doesn't use AA/AF.

1440 x 900.

But, you are both probably correct as I really meant the demo, not the full game (don't own it - not my cup of tea).

[Davros]

then you have poor taste in tea

[Frank]

The expensive models offer less bang for your buck.

[Skrying]

The expensive models offer less bang for your buck.

You mean the most expensive models. Many would say the 8800GT is expensive, but it's very good bang for your buck, much more so than a 8600GTS for instance.

[Frank]

You mean the most expensive models. Many would say the 8800GT is expensive, but it's very good bang for your buck, much more so than a 8600GTS for instance.
I do agree that there is only a single good GPU for the people who want the best rig for playing games: the 8800GTX.

But most everyone else would probably not want to spend half the money of a new PC on the GPU.

[Acert93]

And like that I am laid off, so for sale:

• MSI 8800GT OC 512MB. 660MHz core, 1.9GHz memory (stock: 600/1.8).

• 2GB (2 x 1GB) DDR2 800MHz. OCZ Platinum Revision 2.

Both new. 8800GT is in delivery; memory is unopened but UPC numbers neatly cut out.

$300 for both together (plus whatever shipping method you choose). PM me if you are interested.

:(

[epicstruggle]

And like that I am laid off,[snip]

:(
Im extremely sorry to hear. Hope you get back on your feet soon.

[Davros]

keep them josh you'll manage somehow

[ShaidarHaran]

And like that I am laid off, so for sale:

• MSI 8800GT OC 512MB. 660MHz core, 1.9GHz memory (stock: 600/1.8).

• 2GB (2 x 1GB) DDR2 800MHz. OCZ Platinum Revision 2.

Both new. 8800GT is in delivery; memory is unopened but UPC numbers neatly cut out.

$300 for both together (plus whatever shipping method you choose). PM me if you are interested.

:(

Sorry to hear about your bad luck. If the card has yet to be delivered, can't you just return it to the vendor?

If return is not a possibility and this is still available Monday afternoon, I may have a buyer for you as a co-worker of mine has been searching for an 8800 GT since the launch of the HD 3870.

[Acert93]

Thanks everyone :)

[ShaidarHaran]

Jeez, I completely forgot to ask my co-worker. I'll ask him in an hour when he comes in.

[Skrying]

Josh, did they ship the GT yet? I know there is a really big deal about Dell being Dell about those cards. Mine never got shipped so I cancelled the order and instead went for the 8800 GTS deal that HardOCP had with BFG ($100 off BFG's $399 GTS, so $299). Yeah a bit expensive, but at $318 for 2 day shipping its wasn't bad.

Anyway, good luck with finding someone to purchase it and maybe if it hasn't arrived/been shipped you can cancel that order and save yourself a lot of hassle.

[Acert93]

Skyring: Dell called me and asked if I wanted to cancel the order as it won't ship until the 26th. I decided to not cancel it because if I cannot afford it I have at least two different people interested in buying it. I also got pulled aside at work and told they saved my job, so I am still employed for now :D

[MrGaribaldi]

Congratulations, that is good news!
Hopefully you'll get to keep both the job and the card! :)

[ShaidarHaran]

That's great news Josh. I spoke with my co-worker and while he is in the market for an 8800 GT, he is not in the market for memory so he decided to pass on your offer. Although, if you were to consider splitting up the items he would be interested in the GT depending on price.

[RancidLunchmeat]

Acert,

I hate to say this bro, but in all honesty, if losing your job means you have to fire sale some PC parts for $300, you probably should sell them anyway, even if you seem to have gotten a temporary reprieve.

Glad to hear you aren't getting laid off, obviously. But I'd still make the sale and use that money for the 'next time it happens' emergency fund.

Then again, I'm on the fiscally conservative side which is why I'm using a 4 year old PC and still haven't purchased any next-gen consoles even though I technically have the money to do so.

Good luck, whether you take my advice or not!

[Acert93]

Rancid, not really a fire sale as I would be selling them for the (good deals) I got them for. i.e. no loss to me. I bought the memory and GPU at very good prices (let me know if you find a 8800GT OC for $208) so it isn't a fire sale, but a, "Get my cash back and let someone else get the good deal" situation.

We budget very well and have no debt, the problem was if I was going to be laid off is it may have been permenant and the job market in the midwest is pretty poor and people tend not to hire people of my religion in the area which would have expedited a move cross country. We also have a baby due in the next couple weeks and with the impact on insurance due to layoff and everything all together I didn't feel justified dropping some cash on my PC... even though I actually do earn some nice side cash from work I do on my PC (which is aging). I can afford it... just not justify it. When I start doing more video editing again I am sure I will justify it :lol:

That said, I am pretty (90%) sure I am just going to sell the stuff anyhow.

[RancidLunchmeat]

Fair enough, Acert.

Clearly I don't know your specific condition, I just jump a little when somebody thinks X is going to happen and that results in a sale, and then they get a reprieve from X and decide they don't need to sell.

I'm very glad to hear that you've got it all under control, and even more happy to hear about the little one on the way!

Congratulations!

I think B3D should make a celebratory banner for you!

[epicstruggle]

We also have a baby due in the next couple weeks
Congratulations! I just recently became a father a few months back and it's a wonderful event. She is actually resting on my chest as I type this. :) She keeps me company late at night.