Morrowind is cutting the Mustard!

[LeStoffer]

I gotta’ tell you fellow non-RPG gamers in here that The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind really is cutting the Mustard big time for me.

This is my first Role Playing Game ever and I must admit to having seen the hullabaloo about role-playing with magic, spells, dungeons and what not as excessively goofy/nerdy.

Anyway, I notice all the commotions about Morrowind last year and finally decided to give it a hurl this week. I have been totally immersed in it since (although I’m still a total stranger to the massive concept of magic in Morrowind)!

So if you’re the kind of gamer that normally runs screaming away hearing words like RPG, magic and dungeons you really should reconsider in the case of Morrowind. It’s da shiznit, I tell ya! 8)

[Rodéric]

To me it's the worst Adventure game (RPG can't be made for computers) ever. With a game engine as bad a FF7 PC version, so I wasted my money on this title, and I'm not going to buy any Bethesda software in a while.

Still wondering what you can do in this game except looking at the slow but nifty graphics...

Ah well, hopefully I've a NGC.

[RussSchultz]

I bought it recently also, and found it slow slow slow. (The plot). Plus when you walk around, it takes forever to get anywhere.

I want to get into it, but its a struggle.

[John Reynolds]

Morrowind won the highly coveted John Reynolds Game of the Year for 2002, so you naysayers just need to STFU. ;)

It has some design 'quirks' that annoy me, too, but I love the game. Going to play through it a 3rd time when the 2nd expansion comes out. But I'm geeky like that. . .just got my DAoC paladin a shimmering arcanium illbane jambiya and that sent a few tingles to my nether-regions, let me tell 'ya. 8)

[Saem]

They need a multiplayer for the game. I can't play single player games any more. They feel dead to me.

[pcchen]

Yeah... I'd love to see a multi-player version of Morrowind. Too bad they decided to concentrate on single player mode.

[Crusher]

I can't say I give much consideration to the opinions of someone who says "RPG can't be made for computers". Anyone who thinks like that has probably never given RPGs on computers a real chance, because they're too in love with whatever poorly translated Japanese RPG they're currently playing.

If it were an action game, there would be less story, fewer options for character development, and more... well, action. It's not an action game, it's an RPG, it just happens to use real-time combat instead of turn-based, cast-a-spell-and-watch-a-stupid-3-minute-movie, number-of-points-you-hit-for-bouncing-off-of-the-monster type of combat some RPG players are used to.

It doesn't take long to get where you need to go. If you think it does, you're either a) not using the stilts and mage teleportation (and you should be), or b) walking instead of running.

The good parts of the game:

Graphics
Quests
Gameplay freedom

The bad parts of the game:

Combat
Some skills not implemented as well as they could have been

All in all it's not a perfect game (no game is, computer or console), but it's definetly a step in the right direction, and a giant leap ahead of their previous games (in terms of graphics at least)

[RussSchultz]

I think whomever said "RPG can't be made for computers" is talking more about pen/paper role playing games.

[Rodéric]

Crusher : 100% wrong.
RussSchulty : right.


More than 10 years one day every week mastering pen & paper role playing games, I think I can safely say that RPG can't be made on computers.

The only way is a multiplayer game, but sofar none offered enough freedom to even come close to the pen & paper experience.

You can't play a Role if you can't choose what you say, how you behave, how you solve problems... Especially since many games allow you only one way to get ride of a problem : murder.
I won't comment any further about RPGs and computer games, let's just call them adventure games, add with character development if you wish, to make the difference between Outcast and FF/baldur's gate...

[Crusher]

I think you're mistaken.

"RPG can't be made for computers" : 100% wrong

Just because your personal opinion is that they aren't as good as pen & paper games, doesn't mean a) it can't be done, or b) it hasn't been done successfully.

Even in the very strictist sense, Neverwinter Nights is an RPG on the computer. You could easily get together with friends online, have someone be a GM and make a campaign, and play weekly, with virtually all freedom you have with the pen & paper game. The only thing you're limited by is your proficiency at using the editing tools.

And computer games will always have one thing that makes them superior to pen & paper games: solid rules. Not guidelines spelled out in agonizing detail in 2" thick books that everyone has to read and remember to play the game "correctly. Not rules that are made up on the spur of the moment for no real reason other than the DM thought it would be funny. Not rules that completely defy every other rule ever made about the game.

The idea of a Role Playing Game is to step into another person's shoes for a while. Not sitting around drawing on graph paper. A computer game is a thousand times more immersive than pen & paper RPGs. You arne't just looking at a piece of paper with stats on it, moving a pewter statuette across the table. You're actually seeing the world in front of your eyes. You're moving through it, exploring, being the character. The trees aren't made with crayons. The shopkeeper doesn't look like your friend Al wearing a silly hat and talking with a lisp.

And yes, you have character creation and development. You decide what kind of character you want to be, and you watch him grow as you progress through the game. Computer games are getting more and more liberal with character creation, too. Classes are practically out the window, and dynamic development is here to make things more interesting. After all, why can't your archer know how to bake bread? He's got time, he can learn. And probably the biggest improvement, is that you don't have to sit around for 3-4 hours to make the character. More time playing the game.

RPGs can, and have been made for the computer. They've been made quite well, and are getting better all the time. What you are missing isn't the game, what you're missing is your friends, and the ability to easily construct your own world. Co-op/party-based multiplayer is unfortunately a rare thing right now, and it's difficult to make the creation of a 3D environment on the computer as simple as drawing lines on graph paper. It won't be for much longer though, I suspect. Within 2 years I expect a large number of titles to be designed with co-op or small-party multiplayer in mind as the primary play mode, to contrat with the MMORPGs. I also expect that as graphics engine development plateaus, the emphasis will shift to development tools to increase the ammount of content available, and make it easier for the end user to modify and create their own versions of the game.

[pcchen]

I think it's depends on how you define "RPG for computers."
If you want total freedom like table RPG, you are right... it is almost impossible to create such RPG for computers (unless we have a human-like AI in some distant future).
However, there are still some differences. Some "computer RPGs" have more freedom than others, thus they are more valuable IMHO. Not everyone has the time and resources to play table RPG or even multiplayer RPGs, and I'd rather watching movies instead of playing Final Fantasy style "interactive movies."

Of course, Morrowind has its problems, but I don't agree its the worst adventure game. There are games much worse than it.

[Snyder]

Has anyone of you had the opportunity to play Gothic 2?
To me, it is the game Morrowind could have been - in other words: simply amazing. Surely, the graphics engine isn't as high-poly as in morrowind and the area is not that huge as in MW (but still very large), but everything is much more detailed, the world seems much more alive and believable. In fact I don't know of any other games that creates such a "realistic" and still beautiful world. And it is crammed full with interesting things to see and explore.
The skill system is simpler - but every skill is useful. You can solve almost every quest in different ways. The story is far more dense than in MW.
And: It has a great quest log. (It even keeps track of teachers and merchants.) ;)

Seriously, the crappy quest log was the main reason that restrained me from continuing to play Morrowind. How is anyone supposed to keep track over such a huge heap of information thats just listed in one long line. It's good that Bethesda offered a patch which fixes this problem, but this comes quite late...

[BenSkywalker]

Morrowind won the highly coveted John Reynolds Game of the Year for 2002, so you naysayers just need to STFU.

On the flip side, Morrowind was hands down my 'coaster of the year'. I played through the XBox version, and the game likely would have been one of my favorites except the little part where they accidentally shipped a very, very early pre alpha build of the game instead of the finished product. The game will crash every five minutes(taking the system down) in particular areas(when you have made decent progress and go anywhere near Vivec or Ebonheart in particular). NPCs that are crucial to your main quest will occasionaly cease to exist(they fall through the floors), and certain actions by you that you have no clue on could make the game unbeatable outside of the back door(for instance, bring a Dwemer artifact to Ty Fyr, IIRC, before catching the disease and you will never be capable of progressing past that point, not to mention that Cadius(IIRC that was his name) will skip a bunch of quests and get your game is hosed. If you are thinking of picking this game up buy the PC version, NOT the XB port. Thanks to Morrowind for the XBox, I will never purchase another Bethesda product. It really is an embarassment to the console industry that something coded that poorly could ever be released as a product.

[Rodéric]

Crusher :

Did you missed "The only way is a multiplayer game, but sofar none offered enough freedom to even come close to the pen & paper experience. " in my previous reply ?

I agree that multiplayer games can become RPGs, but sofar none is close too.
The problems being the lack of freedom of the players, and various other problem you mentionned.

I'm sure it can become closer to pen & paper experience, but most so called comptuer 'RPG' are nothing but hack & slash game in which you choose how you'll kill your ennemies (character development). This is still far from playing a role, which a RPG is all about.

As a side note, I've never used figurines except for fights. And RPG have rules only to make everyone agree about the resolution of an action. All the games mechanics are here for resolution of actions, and you don't choose a skill from a list, but rather play your character and as you add new things to it, you add skills (the rule counter part) to your character.
Not the other way around, you don't add a skill and then role play it.
(Not every skill can be role played anyway, some are in just for game mechanics purpose)

Think of it as a game you played as a child, cow-boys and indians, cops & thieves... Except we use rules to avoid countless arguments and disagreements we'd when we were children ;)

[John Reynolds]

On the flip side, Morrowind was hands down my 'coaster of the year'.

Ben, no offense but that does not surprise me.

[Gollum]

Morrowind is kind of a mixed bag to me. At two seperate occasions I invested about 20 hours into the game last year, I explored the world, joined guilds and advanced my character while only slowly getting into the main story. Both times, I just couldn't get back into the game after taking a few days break though. I guess I lost track of where I was, what I was supposed to or wanted to do next and couldn't be bothered to go back and find out.

I think the plot is a bit slow and uninspiring, exploring the world on your own is more rewarding IMHO, the great part of the game is that it lets you do this and still offers you enough to do. The well thought out fictional world complete with legends, history, politics and everything else plays a vital role. Sometimes browsing the books in a bookstore can be more interesting than actually going out and completing quests. I also greatly enjoyed all the crafting abilities, creating your own spells, potions and enchanting your own items really adds a lot to the game.

The primary bad points besides the plot were IMHO the horrible, and I mean truly horrible AI of enemies (actually the whole combat system), the lifeless NPCs and the boring quests. I mean usually a quest goes like this: travel to location - do/pick up/kill this or that - report to this guy for reward - return for next quest; with the occasional: meet stranger - escort him to location that takes at least 15 minutes of walking - get ambushed along the way. Why din't they do more quests like the one with the lighthouse right at the beginning, the engine sure offered loads more potential for complex and original quests. In that regard I agree totally with Snyder, look at Gothic 2 to see how most, if not all of these points (especially plot, AI, NPCs and combat) can be done better to create a truly living and breathing world instead of a gigantic and pretty slideshow of a fantasy world with a host of cool bonus features...

[Snyder]

In that regard I agree totally with Snyder, look at Gothic 2 to see how most, if not all of these points (especially plot, AI, NPCs and combat) can be done better to create a truly living and breathing world instead of a gigantic and pretty slideshow of a fantasy world with a host of cool bonus features...

The sad thing is that JoWood/PB haven't found a US distributor yet. (IIRC they already had one which jumped the gun)
At amazon.com it's listed ATM with release date Sep. 1st.
To be honest, I can't understand this. The only thing I hope is that the have a really huge possible partner as distributor and the negotiations are more time-consuming than expected...but I fear it has more to do with the financial problems and the internal restructuring JoWood had to face in the past.

Oh, but it is available on amazon.co.uk.

[BenSkywalker]

John-

Have you played Morrowind on the XBox? Try it out(play through it) and tell me what you think of it compared to the PC port. I would wager heavily it wouldn't be close to your GOTY ;)

[Sxotty]

I love morrowind, my wife does too. It is the first rpg I have ever liked, if you want to call it that.

I only play FPS's, except myth series, and GTA3, that is pretty much it.

I agree about the engine and coding. It is sad that someone like Carmack cannot code a game like this, I mean quake games were always so well made, but morrowind is so interesting when not crashing for inexplicable reasons.

[John Reynolds]

John-

Have you played Morrowind on the XBox? Try it out(play through it) and tell me what you think of it compared to the PC port. I would wager heavily it wouldn't be close to your GOTY ;)

Yes it would be because I'm referring to the PC version of the game. Couldn't care less how it runs on some gimped PC-wanna'-be console. 8)

[Johnny Rotten]

Morrowind was/is a stunning title in many aspects. The sense of 'world' is amazing. Mindboggling volume of things to do/places to go. Beautiful environments.

That said it does have some very large flaws. The combat, bluntly, sucks. And the designers did a terrible job (in admittedly a very diffuclt task) of balancing the game. Spend a few days just exploring the various parts of the island and taking in the sights, as the game so overtly encourages and you'll soon find your character grossly overpowered for anything else the game can throw at you. No challenge = no fun. :(

[John Reynolds]

Yea, once you can sack a daedric shrine the game isn't much challenge (at default difficulty setting). There were a few tough fights in the first expansion, though.

[Nite_Hawk]

There are some problems with morrowind as other people have noted. Even some rather major ones (It's *slow*). Having said that though, I have some pretty fond memories of it. I've been playing nwn (if you want pen and paper dnd, this is probably the closest thing out right now), and the eve online beta. Playing these other games is giving me an appreciation of just how much depth and work bethesda invested in the world of morrowind. Between the books, the quests, the details of the world... It really was a pretty impressive game. I might have to go back to playing it, because the new games I've been playing are rather crappy. :(

Nite_Hawk

[Crusher]

Speaking of RPGs and getting a stupifying sense of the "world" that exists in a game...

I think it will be difficult to ever feel the same way again that I felt when I was starting out in EverQuest. For all the flaws of that game that have jaded me to it over the years, the awe I felt in my infancy in that game was unparalleled. I don't think anyone who has ever played the game has forgotten their first cross-continent run between Qeynos and Freeport. Unfortunately, it's probably one of those things that can only be experienced once in your lifetime.

Morrowind is large, and it's world is a lot more detailed, but for sheer vastness and variety of environments, EverQuest took the cake.

[John Reynolds]

The latest CGW had a nice write-up on EQ2.

[BenSkywalker]

On the difficulty front, does the PC version allow stacking of fortify attribute potions? I'm curious if this was a bug on the XBox version. You could get your intelligence up in to the millions, although if you went past a certain point it dropped to negative numbers(IIRC it was over a billion). Between that and custom spells I could kill Vivec with two hits, having Azura's star and summong Golden Knight also allowed me to have constant effect restore fatigue and heal making it so I could stand in a pool of lava and leave my character there and he would not die.

[Geeforcer]

Speacking of RPGs...

How did Biowere go from BG2/ToB (one of ther greatest games ever, IMO) to NWN (a very average game)?

[Rodéric]

IMO all Bioware games are bad, NWN being the only one almost average.

Opinions differ.
Of course I'm not playing about single player NWN experience, but online experience. In fact almost any game could reach NWN in an online experience, but well... I did not play that many games online.

[Crusher]

Speacking of RPGs...

How did Biowere go from BG2/ToB (one of ther greatest games ever, IMO) to NWN (a very average game)?

They spent the majority of the development time making it look pretty, and only hacked in the single-player campaign in halfway through development, after they realized how bad the original idea was (making their customers create all of the game's content for them, using provided resources).

[Saem]

There is significant functionality missing from NWN. It's all around half-assed, they needed a lot more programmers to get all the functionality in there and their grapihcs aren't appropriate. You can't see far enough which is an absolute must if you're playing any D&D type game. Visibility plays a huge roll and you can't even play certain difficulties because it's rare that a wizard can throw a fireball without having it smoke your team mates.

[Rodéric]

NWN engine is indeed poorly made, at all levels, networking seems the best part of it though ;)
Maybe they had better bought the Quake2 engine...

[PeterT]

IMO all Bioware games are bad
You never played Planescape: Torment, did you? IMHO it's one of the best PC games ever.

I agree that the Baldurs Gate series was just a little above average and that NWN is simply a rushed pile of mediocrity.

[John Reynolds]

I agree that the Baldurs Gate series was just a little above average and that NWN is simply a rushed pile of mediocrity.

Black Isle Studios created Torment.

NWN was coaster of the year material, IMO. Just amazing how the so-called gaming 'press' handled it. . .just like they did Black 'n White, 5-stars/90%+ reviews.

[Randell]

I have to say I been playing NWN 1-2 times a week since last september with the old shcool buddies I used to PnP AD&D with. We love it. The original campaign is mediocre, but the wealth of add-ons, hak-paks and quality community made modules make it a far richer experience for me than a MMORPG. I haven't played DAOC since trying out NWN, and neither have my friends.

NWN is not about what's in the box - its about what the community made it. Plus its much better gaming a regular campaign with real life mates.

[John Reynolds]

NWN is not about what's in the box - its about what the community made it. Plus its much better gaming a regular campaign with real life mates.

I keep hearing that, and I'm tempted to reinstall and try the expansion pack once it's released since it's being worked on by some ex-Looking Glass folk. My opinion is, I admit, based solely on the OOTB experience Bioware delivered.

[RussSchultz]

Hopefully they've added more tilesets.

It was pretty irritating to not be able to mix desert + castle, or graveyard + whatever.

[Gubbi]

NWN engine is indeed poorly made, at all levels, networking seems the best part of it though ;)
Maybe they had better bought the Quake2 engine...

Anything specific you don't like ?

First game I've played with pervasive stencil shadowing.

Also: Good replay value.

Cheers
Gubbi

[Rodéric]

let's start:

- no vertex skinning
- little animations
- average textures
- nice particule system (spells)
- poor pathfinding,
- chests break when you don't close them (open one, then just run away, it might break)
- they don't follow the DnD rulebook (well that's not that bad, but for an old pen & paper player like me it's rather annoying )
- poor IA (not even 5 senses, let alone a 6th for magic)
- rather laggy networking code (but it works ok)
- slow and heavy script system (some servers need a P4 2.0GHz 512MB to run with many scripts)
- no keyboard shorcuts (that's so annoying to have to click yes or no, while Y and N keys are available)
- sometimes your head disapear when you change helm
- I don't remember a time at which all spells were behaving as they should (there's a problem with some clerics spells atm, however since I've no cleric character I can't tell you which)
- annoying inventory system : hell, when I put something at a place, I use it through quick item keys and I put them back with the same key, I WANT those items to go back where they were, except if the space has been taken
- annoying inventory system 2 : Having to click each and every item to put them somewhere or anything is annoying, why can't I select more than one ?
- poor gameplay : murder based XP system (ok that comes from DnD, but still it sucks)

that's all for this time.

[John Reynolds]

My biggest complaint about the engine was that it obviously limited the game's designers to creating very square-ish, tile-based environments. Blech!

[Randell]

- poor gameplay : murder based XP system (ok that comes from DnD, but still it sucks)

that's all for this time.

that is not cast in stone, plenty of modules that give xp based on roleplay, furthering the story etc. And of course a good DM can give XP however he likes.

[nggalai]

Hi there,
Morrowind is kind of a mixed bag to me. At two seperate occasions I invested about 20 hours into the game last year, I explored the world, joined guilds and advanced my character while only slowly getting into the main story. Both times, I just couldn't get back into the game after taking a few days break though. I guess I lost track of where I was, what I was supposed to or wanted to do next and couldn't be bothered to go back and find out. *snip*Very much the same here. I lost interest in MW after the first few weeks--I got it the day it was available--mainly because of some serious game play and quest issues. Later, I gave it another shot. I was really into Morrowind around December, when I was able to play on a daily basis (if only for half an hour or so). Came back from a 3 day business trip, and was completely lost. The journal system is abysmal, and the uninspired NPCs don't make you "feel" where you are or who you're talking to. Hence, it's bloody difficult to keep track of what's going on, or even what your next steps were. I tried taking notes the old fashioned, Ultima6 way (pen and paper), but just got more bored the more stupid "next quests" I wrote down. Deinstalled it shortly after, and good riddance.

Gothic2 is, IMO, what MW should and could have been. The world simply lives and breathes, the story makes a good impression so far (haven't played it in a while), but above all: I seem to be able to play it on a weekly basis without being either lost or bored. Good game.

I don't consider either game to be a RPG, though, for much the same reasons that have been mentioned before. But that's OT, hence I'll shut up now. ;)

93,
-Sascha.rb

[Alistair]

... drums fingers while waits for Gothic 2. Played the G2 demo on my upgraded rig and was impressed all over again... I understand why you might say MW has better graphics, but as it just seems to give nice pictures of the Baalmora road as you trudge up it yet again, it's kind of like a high poly rendition of paint drying...

I basically felt MW didn't really have enough of a story to be worth rendering graphically. It was like running a screensaver as you trotted between locations.

But the killer was the generic NPC's. Drama is about people. MW's inhabitants seemed to be run by the same code as the in-game textbooks. :(

Free-form options for the player tend to require 'algorithmic' representations of events in the game world, but it does make it seem very like playing a spreadsheet... but that's rpgs I guess... that's why I'm an action-adventure person :)

Still, finished the game. Agree with the comments about balance. I wonder if there was any scope for making the area inside the ghostgate reflect very strongly the experience level of your character, while leaving the area outside with it's pre-scripted difficulty level... And just lowering the value of daedric etc weapons. This seems a better balance option than giving all the traders more cash...