PS2 Slimline Slimline [Archive]

Gradthrawn

09-Jul-2007, 18:32

If so, they really want a Wiimote type controller!!! Sony would totally steal Nintendo's business - comparable visuals and same gameplay at half the price or so.
That ship has sailed, hasn't it? If they had played their cards right, they could have taken the mainstream market before the Wii even launched. With its already low price point, plus appropriate Waggle controller, and accompanying games they could have knocked the legs right from under the Wii. But it would seem to be too little too late, even with SCE's rumored Waggle controller (http://www.the-magicbox.com/game20070627.shtml)for the PS2. The Wii is already out, so, they've lost the edge of being 1st to market (with a mainstream targeted motion controller and games).

Shifty Geezer

09-Jul-2007, 18:40

There's 120 million PS2 owners out there. If some of them are eyeing Wii (and if things are to be believed, every one of 'em wants a Wii) are they more likely to buy a $250 Wii, or a $50 peripheral for PS2? And if you get the critical mass with PS2Waggle from the existing user base, as many users as Wii (10 million would be nice, and EyeToy suggests with proper software support that's manageable) they'll get ports from all the Wii supporting 3rd parties, in a way EyeToy never had. Which would add momentum to the idea of PS2 as a waggle machine, which coupled with a super cheap entry price would make it a perfect rival to Wii - same games (minus Ninty first party), comparable experience, cheaper product. And it plays the PS2 back catalogue too!

The question is if Wii has secured a monopoly on the concept of a waggle machine, kinda like iPod did MP3 players. If not, and the PlayStation brand is very strong so that'd count in its favour, I think they could usurp Wii. Either that, or Nintendo will drop their price down to something reasonable!

Zaphod

09-Jul-2007, 19:10

There's 120 million PS2 owners out there. If some of them are eyeing Wii (and if things are to be believed, every one of 'em wants a Wii) are they more likely to buy a $250 Wii, or a $50 peripheral for PS2?You know, I honestly think it will be the former. PSTWii has no Wiimentum as a substitute, and if they're to have any chance in hell of establishing some; they'd better put out a very cheap game + controller bundle that just screams 'Must Have!' to the established PS2 userbase. Personally, I think they'll just stick to the profitable business model for the PS2 they already have.

Carl B

09-Jul-2007, 19:12

By the way, is there a more substantive article on this move as an alternative to IGN's coverage? It'd just be nice to have a sense of where they themselves heard it, though I certainly don't doubt the accuracy.

fearsomepirate

09-Jul-2007, 19:37

There's 120 million PS2 owners out there.
No, there aren't. There have been 120m PS2s sold, but that doesn't mean there are 120m people who currently own or still use their PS2s.

Shifty Geezer

09-Jul-2007, 19:45

Okay. Downgrade the PS2 install base to 80 million. I guess like that, next to 7 million Wii's, it really doesn't seem worth bothering with...

Marvelite

09-Jul-2007, 19:56

Just package the PS2+Eyetoy with one free game (Play2?) and market it right at less than $99.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nu_CxbNRQQ

tongue_of_colicab

09-Jul-2007, 20:04

There's 120 million PS2 owners out there. If some of them are eyeing Wii (and if things are to be believed, every one of 'em wants a Wii) are they more likely to buy a $250 Wii, or a $50 peripheral for PS2

The Wii as we all know what happenes with peripherals like this. They get used in one and a half game and thats it unlike wii games which will be build around the controller (for better or worse).

Shifty Geezer

09-Jul-2007, 20:33

The Wii as we all know what happenes with peripherals like this. They get used in one and a half game and thats it unlike wii games which will be build around the controller (for better or worse).Why would developers not port their Wii games over? EyeToy sold a couple of million on the strength of one title alone. That'd be enough to create a viable base for Wii ports, which would provide the software to preserve momentum for the peripheral. And if Sony bundle the controller too, Wii titles would be bound to come.

tongue_of_colicab

09-Jul-2007, 21:01

If sony bundels the controller that would be likely to happen. However ps2 sales are going down and even if every ps2 sold from e3 is a bundeld one I still dont think you'll see alot of games coming from wii to ps2. Probably mostly the MP games and add the motion controlls to the ps2 version along with the normal gamepad. But it might as well turn out that a ps2 with motion controller and cheaper price turns out to be a hit. Though I dont hope so, not only as I think nintendo deservers some succes this time but also because sony has the nasty habit of ''lending'' other people's stuff and not coming up with something new themselves.

Skrying

09-Jul-2007, 21:42

So, what was the topic of the thread?

I don't see this being a smaller model, just really expected improvements to the design to further reduce costs.

Shifty Geezer

09-Jul-2007, 21:50

A weight reduction, especially 300 grams of an already tiny and light-weight box, to me sounds like they have to be shrinking it somehow. Unless most of that 300 grams is heat-sink that they can remove for 65nm? Otherwise I'm thinking smaller mobo, less chassis, less heatsinks. Perhaps the top loading drive above the mobo, for half the width and a little extra height?

Skrying

09-Jul-2007, 22:10

Teasy

09-Jul-2007, 22:10

If so, they really want a Wiimote type controller!!! Sony would totally steal Nintendo's business - comparable visuals and same gameplay at half the price or so.

Edit : Although more likely is greater profits for Sony with PS2 kept at the same price. It's still selling - may as well make more profit from it.

Jesus Shifty, let it go man :), it wouldn't work, we know it, Sony know it which is why it won't happen.

cthellis42

09-Jul-2007, 22:36

Jesus Shifty, let it go man :), it wouldn't work, we know it, Sony know it which is why it won't happen.
Actually, it probably would if there were any software development strength behind it--even with all the people accusing it of copying--because as long as long as the titles themselves were as cheap or cheaper... why not? The PS2 probably already IS the kids' machine, so... why not?

The problem is there's no visible development momentum, and likely wouldn't be remotely accepted by 3rd parties without a huge push and brisk sales, and at that point they'd only START in on projects, which means it'd be years from completion...

Essentially, there's too much they'd have to pull off in not-enough-time-to-pull-it-off to make it anything but another EyeToy-like exploration. They'd be better off trying to enhance the existing EyeToy line futher with a new package, a few new and interesting games, and a motion controller that could be used by itself or in conjunction with the EyeToy. And even then it's just bringing a bit of interest back into the EyeToy possibilities (and perhaps channelling that into how to use it in the future and with the PS3). The PS2 doesn't have enough lifespan left in it to be a "competitive movement," even if it can still carry some weight.

It's not that it had to "beat the Wii to market" as it were... but that something has to have been in the works--visibly--for a long time for them to get any reasonable number of games worth a damn out the door even if they planned to launch tomorrow.

Natoma

09-Jul-2007, 22:42

Okay. Downgrade the PS2 install base to 80 million. I guess like that, next to 7 million Wii's, it really doesn't seem worth bothering with...

Closing in on 9m actually. :wink:

Teasy

10-Jul-2007, 01:45

The problem is there's no visible development momentum, and likely wouldn't be remotely accepted by 3rd parties without a huge push and brisk sales, and at that point they'd only START in on projects, which means it'd be years from completion...

Which is what I meant when I said it wouldn't work.

Rainbow Man

10-Jul-2007, 04:33

PS2 is too old and tired a console for anything like this to work.

Most who bought one have grown out of it and relegated it to the back of the closet. That or else it's in a landfill right now.

It wouldn't gain new popularity just because a "waggle stick" is released for it. This is a pointless discussion.

Peace.

cthellis42

10-Jul-2007, 06:28

Which is what I meant when I said it wouldn't work.
I wasn't really replying to you directly, you were just the most recent person to quote. ;) The general tenor seemed to be that "the people wouldn't accept it" or somesuch.

morlock

10-Jul-2007, 06:33

PS2 is too old and tired a console for anything like this to work.

Most who bought one have grown out of it and relegated it to the back of the closet. That or else it's in a landfill right now.

And yet it sells like 300K a month in US alone (Feb number), I think a new and well promoted Eyetoy/Waggle-bundle could sell as much as the Wii this holiday.

Fafalada

10-Jul-2007, 06:40

It wouldn't gain new popularity just because a "waggle stick" is released for it. This is a pointless discussion.
While I also don't think such an addon would have much traction, calling PS2 old and tired is a bit of a stretch considering hw is still outselling everything except Wii (and even Wii in some areas of Europe), and sw has so far outsold all 3 nexgen consoles combined.

I suspect once it hits 99$ it will still sell for a good while longer, question is just what adverse effects that might have on the other products (especially Sony's own).

cthellis42

10-Jul-2007, 06:49

Too tired and not enough headway to even remotely say it would supplant the Wii, certainly. Not to say it has no legs or could give a new idea a nice run for the money, tho.

Shifty Geezer

10-Jul-2007, 08:33

Too tired and not enough headway to even remotely say it would supplant the Wii, certainly.I don't mind people thinking whatever opinions they have, but it'd be nice if people explained some logic behind them! Offered a $250 Wii with waggle controls, and a $100 PS2 with waggle, if the software is there on both, why will Joe Public choose Wii? It's not like the PS2 would be a no-name brand without any reputation, going up against an entrenched brand. Why would a PS2 offering the same experience as the Wii, with the same graphics, and still selling hundreds of thousands of units without any new gimmicks, not have any appeal to JP? And why will none of the existing PS2 owners want a waggle controller for $50 instead of shelling out $250 for Wii? Does the existing 50 million PS2 user base not have any interest at all in joining the current 20 million Wii user base? Are they customers Nintendo will never get?

cthellis42

10-Jul-2007, 12:02

I'm saying that'd be fine, if there was any semblance of emphasis on it until now. They could perhaps develop a peripheral and a cool game or two in secret, but that basically puts it--as I said--on par with the way they released the EyeToy to begin with.

The Wii has the basically the entire--rather impressive--software development emphasis of Nintendo right now, but also turned 3rd party emphasis their way.

Could a new PS2 push have any momentum and any compelling titles without us already knowing it? Could they prove sales to 3rd party developers in ANY kind of timeframe that would have them jump on board and get anything nice and specific for the PS2Waggle in the following year? Two?

Like I said, it's not that the idea has no legs, it's just that to HAVE legs, we'd know something by now, and to MAKE legs they'd need to spend a tremendous amount of effort to develop anywhere near the kind of momentum Nintendo has already. It would certainly help to be off the starter blocks already, but considering the absolute absence of information about it, it looks like they wouldn't be able to get off the starter blocks for a long time yet, or that they'd start running with only an EyeToy-like showing, and no extra studios in their relay.

Without any measurable emphasis BY now, how could you expect much of it FROM now on? I already said that I don't see it being rejected by the public outright, nor that it couldn't enjoy some level of success, but the extent would be rather constrained by not as much "age of the device" as... well... "lack of anything."

Rangers

10-Jul-2007, 12:21

If so, they really want a Wiimote type controller!!! Sony would totally steal Nintendo's business - comparable visuals and same gameplay at half the price or so.

Edit : Although more likely is greater profits for Sony with PS2 kept at the same price. It's still selling - may as well make more profit from it.

Without the Nintendo brand, all that is useless..

Besides that PS2 is "old" and Wii is "new". And old consoles are never regenerated.

sudzy

10-Jul-2007, 14:16

Without the Nintendo brand, all that is useless..

Besides that PS2 is "old" and Wii is "new". And old consoles are never regenerated.

I'm not sure I agree with that. If, like Cthellis said, if the software was there to back it, I for one would jump on it.
My original PS2 is still the only console I own, and I do not see myself upgrading in the near future.
I never have been an early adopter nor a "tech chaser" (with the exception of my PC :oops: ).

But I would like to give this motion control thing a whirl, but I think the price of entry for the tech in the WII is, well, too steep considering what's in the box.

Fafalada

10-Jul-2007, 14:57

Besides that PS2 is "old" and Wii is "new". And old consoles are never regenerated.
Funny, I could have sworn that Wii is a living example of an old console regenerated.

AlStrong

10-Jul-2007, 15:05

Funny, I could have sworn that Wii is a living example of an old console regenerated.

"Rebranded" is the key word I think you're looking for. ;)

archangelmorph

10-Jul-2007, 15:42

Without the Nintendo brand, all that is useless..

Besides that PS2 is "old" and Wii is "new". And old consoles are never regenerated.

I love how you came up with this!!

For one the Nintendo brand didn't get the GameCube or the N64 anywhere and certainly not to where the Wii is right now sales wise..

Plus it's pretty clear by the sheer size of the PS2 fanbase that the "PS" brand is much stronger..

To be honest if Sony could rally enough Developers to get behind supporting such a peripheral for the PS2 then i'm pretty darn sure it could potentially do pretty well..

Granted the PS2 is dating but the real question would be how much this would matter to a fanbase driven by interest in novel controls and casual, shallow software (see Wii fanbase)?
Plus If Sony could ship the peripheral with a USB adaoptor then you automatically get cross-platform peripheral support onto the PS3 since the system supports PS2 games already which could help sustain the peripheral (which could be marketed as it's OWN brand) even after PS2 sales start to slow and PS3 sales accellerate..

To me there are only three large factors which could affect realistically how viable such an investment could be:-

- Developer interest - maybe pretty good considering Wii has proved there's a market for this kind of thing
- Wiimote-ness - How similar the peripheral would be to the Wiimote, could effectively determine how easy (in terms of design & cost) Wii games could be ported to the platform and thus, how fast devs could get behind it and get games out in good time
- Strength of the IP - the closer the peripheral is to the Wiimote, the larger the danger of patent infringements and possibly massive lawsuits!

Shifty Geezer

10-Jul-2007, 16:08

I'm saying that'd be fine, if there was any semblance of emphasis on it until now.I agree with that wholeheartedly. I can't imagine the PSWaggle appearing, 'coz it'd need a whole load more lead up than we've heard. Unless it's the best kept secret in gaming history, it can't be happening. No quibbles there. What bugs me is people saying 'it won't happen because it can't happen' and leaving it at that. It's never been tried before, so how can anyone know if it can't happen? We can reason either way...who's reasoning that is can't happen?

Besides that PS2 is "old" and Wii is "new". And old consoles are never regenerated.When has any console had the chance to be regenerated like this? Wii is in essence a GC with a waggle controller. If you can turn a PS2 into a PS2 with Waggle, why can't that work? The main reason is software support. Unlike the Wii where waggle is intrinsic, PS2 is mostly not about waggle and the back-catalogue is non-waggle. But if it gets all the Wii ports, which it would, software's no longer a problem. What other limiting factors would there then be?

Arwin

10-Jul-2007, 16:39

Of course it can happen. There's already a third party who released a sixaxis for PS2 where you can configure the tilt to take over the analog stick, and it gets an excellent rating, and I think it even has rumble. There's a nice lightgun for the system, and the buzz, singstar mikes, and so on all work fine. There's Guitar Hero, and Rockband could just as well be released for the PS2. There's the EyeToy, and there's the fact that all of these peripherals are compatible with the PS3 (even if the software isn't always). There's also no reason to believe that the interesting new lightgun developed for Time Crisis 4 isn't comptable with the PS2, even if they may not immediately release software for it.

The question is just how far devs are going to take any of this. A number of Wii games only need the sixaxis functionality to work, and in a quite limited fashion too, so certainly there's a possibility right there. A limited version of the wii-mote doesn't have to cost much and can easily be bundled with software, because that software isn't necessarily expensive to make.

What makes the wii-mote a success is Nintendo's software development, and all the tuning that has gone into making Wii Play play just right. If a controller were to be developed right now, it would still take a while before games come out that support it properly, although third party developers could benefit from wii-mote experience quite a bit.

It's all a matter of wanting to and being ready to. It could be difficult for Sony, as they already have so many things going on and they'll want to invest in the PS3 more than in the PS2, but then again they themselves have always considered the PS2 to be the more direct competitor to the Wii, so who knows. Certainly a new controller doesn't seem too far fetched, but there is already so much going on that right now I think maybe getting software to benefit from what's already there (think new EyeToy, sixaxis, and the GunCon3 controller) could be much more useful. Maybe a rumble clip-on is possible, or small rumble clip-ons that you put whereever you like on your clothing, hands, controller or body could be interesting ...

tongue_of_colicab

10-Jul-2007, 16:46

For one the Nintendo brand didn't get the GameCube or the N64 anywhere and certainly not to where the Wii is right now sales wise..

As you probably know, brand strenght can easily change. Nintendo used to be the brand in the nes/snes days, they lost that with n64 and gc and they seem to make their brand stronger again with the DS and Wii.

Plus it's pretty clear by the sheer size of the PS2 fanbase that the "PS" brand is much stronger..

Yes, PS3 sales just prove how strong the PS brand is. I dont think nintendo would even remotely think about trading places with the PS brand atm.

To be honest if Sony could rally enough Developers to get behind supporting such a peripheral for the PS2 then i'm pretty darn sure it could potentially do pretty well..

If, yes. But as others pointed out it might not be that easy.

Granted the PS2 is dating but the real question would be how much this would matter to a fanbase driven by interest in novel controls and casual, shallow software (see Wii fanbase)?

Your making untrue statements. Not every Wii owner is looking for shallow games (oh and dont forget that the majority of games, on every platform is aimed at casuals incase you think the Wii is the only ''casual'' console).

archangelmorph

10-Jul-2007, 17:33

As you probably know, brand strenght can easily change. Nintendo used to be the brand in the nes/snes days, they lost that with n64 and gc and they seem to make their brand stronger again with the DS and Wii.
This only proves that the brand has no strength whatsoever as its success is completely at the whim of other much more influential factors..

Yes, PS3 sales just prove how strong the PS brand is. I dont think nintendo would even remotely think about trading places with the PS brand atm.
Touche.. You got me there..

If, yes. But as others pointed out it might not be that easy.
I'm not sure.. I think if Sony had the resources then they could do it.. They would only need to follow Nintendo's exmaple and push/promote the hardware by developing great showcase titles for the platform which then go onto sell well and third parties would flock like pidgeons (especially since most of them already have huge established code & content libraries setup for the platform, not to mention years of experience developing on it..)

Your making untrue statements. Not every Wii owner is looking for shallow games (oh and dont forget that the majority of games, on every platform is aimed at casuals incase you think the Wii is the only ''casual'' console).
Granted that statement was a little over-generalised.. Sorry dude!

Arwin

10-Jul-2007, 18:23

PS3 sales prove nothing, other than that at a 599 price point, people aren't going to buy a console en masse, unless you can point me to when the PS1 and PS2 sold so hot at these price points. It will be interesting to see how many more people will buy the PS3 at 499 now, and then later at 399, and see how that trendline progresses.

tongue_of_colicab

10-Jul-2007, 19:21

I'm not sure.. I think if Sony had the resources then they could do it.. They would only need to follow Nintendo's exmaple and push/promote the hardware by developing great showcase titles for the platform which then go onto sell well and third parties would flock like pidgeons (especially since most of them already have huge established code & content libraries setup for the platform, not to mention years of experience developing on it..)

Could be. But what about ps3? I assume since sony has spend so much money on that dont they want to push that as much as possible? Would they really want tos pend alot of time and effort on the ps2wii while the ps3 is what they see as their machine to earn money on for the next decade? Ofcourse they might take some wind out of nintendo's sailes, but you'll probably mostly see the same thing happening as now. MP games with in a ps2wii case also added motion sensing for the ps2 version. Than there is also the point of marketing. The ps2 has a certain image to it, just as the wii has. Its kinda like the iPod thing, people want that even though there are cheaper and better alternatives. I think nintendo put themselves in a somewhat comparable position. They are the motion sensing console to own, having a ps2wii might not appeal in the same way to people even though it will be cheaper (and maybe better). Though the opposite could be true to.

PS3 sales prove nothing, other than that at a 599 price point, people aren't going to buy a console en masse, unless you can point me to when the PS1 and PS2 sold so hot at these price points. It will be interesting to see how many more people will buy the PS3 at 499 now, and then later at 399, and see how that trendline progresses.

So its aleasts proves price goes before brand name?

ManuVlad3.0

10-Jul-2007, 19:29

A new PS2 with a built-in Eye toy would be a great move.

tongue_of_colicab

10-Jul-2007, 22:56

A new PS2 with a built-in Eye toy would be a great move.

What is the added value over a ps2 + lose eyetoy? not the mention the awsome offer in eyetoy games. Besides, wouldnt a build in eyetoy require you to place your ps2 on your tv?

Teasy

10-Jul-2007, 23:03

Funny, I could have sworn that Wii is a living example of an old console regenerated.

Its obvious that Rangers meant that you can't take an old console and just start selling it again with a new controller. Which is what's being suggested for PS2 here. Wii may use updated GC parts (as well as some extra's like RAM ect) but that's irrelivant to consumers. To them its an entirely new console.

Teasy

10-Jul-2007, 23:18

When has any console had the chance to be regenerated like this? Wii is in essence a GC with a waggle controller. If you can turn a PS2 into a PS2 with Waggle, why can't that work?

Because Wii is a new console with some internal similarities to its predesesor that most consumers have little idea about. While PS2 is... a PS2, the same console people have been hearing about and playing on for the last 7 years. You can't honestly believe that because Wii has similar internal hardware to GC that logically means a PS2 with a new controller could do just as well...

The main reason is software support. Unlike the Wii where waggle is intrinsic, PS2 is mostly not about waggle and the back-catalogue is non-waggle. But if it gets all the Wii ports, which it would, software's no longer a problem. What other limiting factors would there then be?

No, it wouldn't... Not unless this addon sold at an incredibly rapid pace. Even then it would likely get a trickle of poor ports and die a slow death.

almighty

10-Jul-2007, 23:19

No pictures yet?

rabidrabbit

10-Jul-2007, 23:27

No pictures yet?
It looks the same externally. The changes are inside.

Zaphod

10-Jul-2007, 23:38

Because Wii is a new console with some internal similarities to its predesesor that most consumers have little idea about. While PS2 is... a PS2, the same console people have been hearing about and playing on for the last 7 years.Well, I guess they could attempt to rebrand the thing. Give a PSWii a white cover or some other easily distinguishing feature and market it as "compatible with all PS2 games (additional controller needed)" or whatever. Not that I think they will, though...

archangelmorph

11-Jul-2007, 09:45

Well, I guess they could attempt to rebrand the thing. Give a PSWii a white cover or some other easily distinguishing feature and market it as "compatible with all PS2 games (additional controller needed)" or whatever. Not that I think they will, though...

That's an idea but to be honest I don't think they'd need to.. I think in order for such an idea to work Sony would have to invent into marketing the peripheral in a different way..

Sure the Ps2 has been around for a while but there's no reason Sony has to create a wagglewand image that couldn't be decoupled from a single platform altogether..

As I stated before the PS3's backwards compatibility provides a secondary suitable platform once the PS2 loses it's legs eventually and should the peripheral sell well in the early stages, developer's could almost naturally progress providing new HD games for the device which don't have to worry about legacy support for the PS2 by then..

I think the key is not trying to succeed a device off the back of an established console "brand" but to create an entirely new brand altogether.. Similar to the way Sony did with the Eyetoy, but in a much more ubiquitous fashion.. This way the success of the platform would depend entirely on upon it's own brand strength (waggle gaming a la Wii) and the success or decline of a single supported hardware platform would then have little effect..

EDIT: Sony could even take it one step further and actually establish a maximum hardware specification that games are built to AND create a sort of virtual machine of which the games would launch from (think shockwave flash).. In this way Sony could in theory support as many hardware platforms as they deem fit with only the requirement of developing the software-based emulators for each platform (extending to PC, Mac etc..) Just a thought I guess..

Fafalada

11-Jul-2007, 11:20

Wii may use updated GC parts (as well as some extra's like RAM ect) but
that's irrelivant to consumers. To them its an entirely new console.
Exactly - a new case + marketing push.
IMO the problem with PS2 is not people buying this new item, it's spending a massive marketing budget and diverting development resources to a budget priced machine when your "main" console is struggling with price-tag and adoption rate.

Shifty Geezer

11-Jul-2007, 14:55

Or putting it another way, take the PS2 with this new hardware shrink, put it in a Apple-esque white box, sell it as PlayStation Waggle and announce it also has complete BC with PS2 as well! For development, a lot of titles could be rushed out, such as Katamari. Just map it to motion instead of analogue sticks, and you've got a Wii-esque game. Similarly that stunt racing thing PS2/PSP had that's a PS3 download. If there's enough re-engineered PS2 titles mapped to motion, Sony would only need to provide a few key 1st party titles along the lines of Play and Sports to offer the same multiplayer motion experience as Wii at less money. As the replacement for PS2, you'll still sell a few hundred thousand a month without any greater uptake than PS2 has now. Offer a peripheral to add the functions to the existing PS2 userbase, and getting a few million users shouldn't be too hard, by which point it'll be a viable cross-platform machine for Wii titles.

If Sony had a mind to implement it, it seems to me they could.