Mac questions

[Humus]

When I was home over the holidays last time my niece half jokingly and half serious asked me to buy her a Macintosh, because she just started in the Media Program at senior highschool last fall and thought a Mac would be good for her ("because they are good for Media stuff"). I've considered surprising her by actually buying one for her, but I haven't touched a Mac since 1998 so I have no clue what modern Macs are like. At first I considered getting her one of these:
http://www.apple.com/ca/macbook/macbook.html

The problem with that is that if I buy it here in Canada and bring it home I'll get one with an English keyboard. If I buy one from/in Sweden it'll be way more expensive (as if it wasn't expensive for that level of hardware already). So I was wondering if there's any quick shortcuts on Macs for toggling between keyboard layouts, like on WinXP you can just instantly toggle between English and Swedish layout with Alt-Shift if you set it up that way. Is there anything similar for Macs?

The other option I've considered is getting one of these:
http://www.apple.com/ca/macmini/
That would solve the keyboard problem since she could just plug in a Swedish keyboard. Am I right in assuming that all those connections (USB, DVI etc) would be compatible with PC equipment? I know this wasn't always the case back in the day, but can I rely on that on modern machines?

Also, how's upgradability these days? It used to be somewhere between nonexistant to crappy, but is it possible to upgrade modern Macs? Like replacing that crappy Intel graphics in the minimac.

[alt_nick]

There're keyboard shortcuts (all configurable) and a menu icon for it it just like in Windows http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/XHIGKeyboardShortcuts/chapter_20_section_1.html

All plugs are the standardized variant. Basically stock x86 computers with a custom BIOS.

The mac mini GPU is integrated afaik, if you want to upgrade you'll need a mac pro.
The hig-end iMac should have an MXM slot, but cards seem virtually non-existant.

Personally I'd go with the macbook if she's more of a casual/on-the-go user and a iMac (x1600 variant) if she wants a 'desktop' computer that'll last a while.
Don't really see the mini as future proof, using mine as a glorified irc client.

Oh, and OS X loooves RAM. 1GB minimum for moderate usage.

[Diamond.G]

There're keyboard shortcuts (all configurable) and a menu icon for it it just like in Windows http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/XHIGKeyboardShortcuts/chapter_20_section_1.html

All plugs are the standardized variant. Basically stock x86 computers with a custom BIOS.

The mac mini GPU is integrated afaik, if you want to upgrade you'll need a mac pro.
The hig-end iMac should have an MXM slot, but cards seem virtually non-existant.

Personally I'd go with the macbook if she's more of a casual/on-the-go user and a iMac (x1600 variant) if she wants a 'desktop' computer that'll last a while.
Don't really see the mini as future proof, using mine as a glorified irc client.

Oh, and OS X loooves RAM. 1GB minimum for moderate usage.

Uh, the BIOS isn't BIOS at all it is EFI. From my understanding all the new Santa Rosa Systems will be using EFI as well.

[alt_nick]

Uh, the BIOS isn't BIOS at all it is EFI. From my understanding all the new Santa Rosa Systems will be using EFI as well.
I was referring to it in the sense of a Basic Input/Output System, or a boot loader.
Guess I need to remember to turn up the pedantic knob to xtr3m3 when around techies ;)

[Diamond.G]

I was referring to it in the sense of a Basic Input/Output System, or a boot loader.
Guess I need to remember to turn up the pedantic knob to xtr3m3 when around techies ;)

HEHE, naw. I guess I didn't know if you thought that Mac's use a custom BIOS, or if you knew they used EFI but didn't say. No biggie.

To the OP, get a Macbook Pro/iMac/Mac Pro . Any sort of graphic work (of the near pro type) will benefit from a real GPU. I would also like to point out OS X is sooooooo better than OS 7/8/9. I used to be anti-mac, but after playing around with OS X I was converted.

[Humus]

Thanks for your replies guys. It's a hard choice. I went to the Apple store downtown today to check the machines out. The Macbooks looked surprisingly plastic. They are also considerably more expensive than the minimac, but then the minimac doesn't come with any monitor/keyboard/mouse, so that's maybe not too surprising. An iMac would maybe be an option, but the problem with that is mainly the size. I'm planning to buy it here and bring it with me, so it would have to fit in my bags.

[Diamond.G]

Thanks for your replies guys. It's a hard choice. I went to the Apple store downtown today to check the machines out. The Macbooks looked surprisingly plastic. They are also considerably more expensive than the minimac, but then the minimac doesn't come with any monitor/keyboard/mouse, so that's maybe not too surprising. An iMac would maybe be an option, but the problem with that is mainly the size. I'm planning to buy it here and bring it with me, so it would have to fit in my bags.

Macbooks case is plastic. The Macbook Pro's is Aluminum. I agree on the price of the Macbook though it is a bit expensive. (I say this even though I own two...)

Good luck on whatever you choose though.

[Humus]

FYI, I went with the Mini-mac. It was relatively cheap and good enough. I customized it though to add more RAM, so it's got 1GB. Got it yesterday and now I'm typing this on it. :)
Now I have about two weeks to play with it. I'm considering adding support for Mac to my framework. I haven't attempted yet, but soon enough. Right now it's updating software and stuff.

[DemoCoder]

Watch out for OpenGl on the Mac. Apple in their infinite wisdom changed the location / directory structure of various GL header files. :(

[NocturnDragon]

FYI, I went with the Mini-mac. It was relatively cheap and good enough. I customized it though to add more RAM, so it's got 1GB. Got it yesterday and now I'm typing this on it. :)
Now I have about two weeks to play with it. I'm considering adding support for Mac to my framework. I haven't attempted yet, but soon enough. Right now it's updating software and stuff.


You knew there are rumors of upgraded mini coming out next week? :wink:

[Kalin]

FYI, I went with the Mini-mac. It was relatively cheap and good enough. I customized it though to add more RAM, so it's got 1GB. Got it yesterday and now I'm typing this on it. :)
Now I have about two weeks to play with it. I'm considering adding support for Mac to my framework. I haven't attempted yet, but soon enough. Right now it's updating software and stuff.

A quick suggestion - try replacing the internal HDD with a faster one, or an external one. I've got an iomega maxmini hdd (http://www.iomega.com/direct/products/family.jsp?FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=32593561) and the mini feels much snappier now when I boot from it.

[Entropy]

FYI, I went with the Mini-mac. It was relatively cheap and good enough. I customized it though to add more RAM, so it's got 1GB. Got it yesterday and now I'm typing this on it. :)
Now I have about two weeks to play with it. I'm considering adding support for Mac to my framework. I haven't attempted yet, but soon enough. Right now it's updating software and stuff.

Even though the mini is arguably the least bang per buck offered in Apples line-up, it does offer an unique advantage in its extreme portability. It is much smaller than a typical laptop and much more robust. For the work she will likely do with it, add a 23/24 inch display from whatever source. Apples are nice, Dells are can sometimes be had cheaper if you catch one of their super specials. The cordless mouse/kb makes for ultra simple transportation and setup, and split second reclaiming of desktop space if she needs it.

It is a very good system for working in more than one specific location. Depending on what senior highschool means, you might consider buying Adobe CS3 in Canada/USA since Adobe charges outrageous prices in Europe. Buying CS3 in New York easily pays for flight and hotel while there.... Bizarre. Of course CS3 is may be way over the top for her - iPhoto/iMovie/Garageband/Keynote may be more fitting if she is at a lower level in her education.

The mini sure scores in terms of niceness though - I'm sure she'll like it. And it's cute!

[Humus]

Watch out for OpenGl on the Mac. Apple in their infinite wisdom changed the location / directory structure of various GL header files. :(

You mean that it's in <OpenGL/gl.h> rather than <GL/gl.h> that's standard on all other platforms, or are you talking about something else?
For me this is not a problem since things are pretty #ifdef'ed anyway.
I started porting my framework yesterday, and it's coming along pretty well. I love the fact that you get a complete dev environment for free on the DVD.

You knew there are rumors of upgraded mini coming out next week? :wink:

Didn't know about that. Wouldn't have time to wait for that anyway though, I'm heading out in just over a week. What's being upgraded according to the rumor?

A quick suggestion - try replacing the internal HDD with a faster one, or an external one. I've got an iomega maxmini hdd (http://www.iomega.com/direct/products/family.jsp?FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=32593561) and the mini feels much snappier now when I boot from it.

I don't know how powerful machine she'll need. I'll leave any upgrades to her. It seems fast enough to me for the stuff I've done on it so far.

Depending on what senior highschool means, <snip>

In Swedish school system she's at the "Gymnasium", which is usually compared to "senior highschool" in the american school system. It's three years and you go to college/university after that. So she's 16 at this point.

you might consider buying Adobe CS3 in Canada/USA since Adobe charges outrageous prices in Europe. Buying CS3 in New York easily pays for flight and hotel while there.... Bizarre. Of course CS3 is may be way over the top for her - iPhoto/iMovie/Garageband/Keynote may be more fitting if she is at a lower level in her education.

I don't know what kind of software she'll need. If it's cheaper to buy here I guess I could just send her some later. I don't think she'll need a retail box though, just buying it online as a download should be the same price globally I would assume. Funny thing that CS3 costs about as much as the system did. :p And CS3 extended costs more than the system.

[Entropy]

So... have you enjoyed using it? ;)

[[maven]]

I love the fact that you get a complete dev environment for free on the DVD.

Remember to upgrade to the most recent version of Xcode (2.4.1); quite a few improvements to the one on the install DVD (for 10.4.0 it was 2.0 anyway); you'll need a (free) ADC account and can get it at http://developer.apple.com

[Humus]

So... have you enjoyed using it? ;)

Well, it had it's plusses and minuses. On the minus side, the keyboard doesn't work very well with it. I don't know what's to blame, but then I'm connecting a PS/2 keyboard through a PS/2 to USB connector for keyboard and mouse. The mouse didn't work at all through it, jumping around randomly. So I've used my laptop mouse instead, which is USB and that worked fine. The keyboard kind of works, but at random certain keys just die, only to resurrect 10 minutes later. It can be quite frustrating coding when you're missing like the left arrow and the delete key.

Another thing I find a bit odd is that applications don't neccesarily terminate when you hit that close button. The window goes away, but the menu may still be around. So to really close the app you have to exit in the menu. And it's inconsistent too. Some apps terminate, others don't. I haven't really figured out the system.

;1004550']Remember to upgrade to the most recent version of Xcode (2.4.1); quite a few improvements to the one on the install DVD (for 10.4.0 it was 2.0 anyway); you'll need a (free) ADC account and can get it at http://developer.apple.com

I think it was like 2.3.<something> that came on the DVD. Seems to work pretty well for me for now. My biggest problem is trying to find relevant information in Apple's documentation.

[[maven]]

Another thing I find a bit odd is that applications don't neccesarily terminate when you hit that close button. The window goes away, but the menu may still be around. So to really close the app you have to exit in the menu. And it's inconsistent too. Some apps terminate, others don't. I haven't really figured out the system.

The general idea is things like utilities (e.g. Calculator.app) quit when their window is closed, whereas "proper applications" only close / hide the window and keep on running; but this distinction is fuzzily defined as follows in Apple's HIG (http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/index.html?http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/XHIGIntro/chapter_1_section_1.html):
In most cases, applications that are not document-based should quit when the main window is closed. For Example, System Preferences quits if the user closes the window. If an application continues to perform some function when the main window is closed, however, it may be appropriate to leave it running when the main window is closed. For example, iTunes continues to play when the user closes the main window.

If you always want to always close applications, simply use the CMD+Q shortcut (probably the Windows key on a normal keyboard); generally the shortcut keys between applications are much more consistent for Mac applications.

Oh, and install QuickSilver (http://quicksilver.blacktree.com). :)

[Humus]

Yay! My framework is now fully working on the Mac. :)


http://www.humus.ca/temp/GameEngineII_MacOSX.jpg

Now all this Mac would need is a decent video card. I was a bit surprised that this Intel crappics would actually run my GameEngineII demo. Well, I had to disable parallax mapping and self-shadowing bumpmapping because that ran in software, but once that was disabled everything worked.

[Entropy]

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/03/03 :)

Nice job. Got Xcode set up and doing tricks for you real quick!

[Humus]

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/03/03 :)

Classic! :mrgreen:

[Diamond.G]

Classic! :mrgreen:

Are you going to be releasing Demo's that run on Mac's now?

[Humus]

Well, I expect most or all future OpenGL demos to just work on Mac too, as long as the extensions used are supported by the video card. The only problem is that I'm not keeping this Mac for myself, so I won't be able to create any project files or executables for Mac. However, anyone with a Mac should be able to create his own project files and compile the executable himself. It's a quick thing to do. I'll add some notes to my standard readme about how to do that.

[[maven]]

However, anyone with a Mac should be able to create his own project files and compile the executable himself. It's a quick thing to do. I'll add some notes to my standard readme about how to do that.

...if you ignore all the x86 specific stuff in the framework :). As soon as I find the time, I'll make a properly universal binary out of the framework.

[Dooby]

Going OT, cover me!

A client GAVE me a 17" macbook pro last week, full loaded with software. All kosher. Just cause he had it "lying around". £3500, lying around... bast...

Anyway, Im *not* impressed with it. I have no idea why everyone keeps harping on about it. Mac OSX is... terrible comes to mind. I should not have to google to find out how to enable right click. As a media center its pathetic, itunes is naff, and I didnt like VLC on XP, on OSX its even worse. Folder views are another bugbear of mine, cant view "artist" on a folder of MP3's, WTH? Everytime I poke someone I know who loves Macs they link me to a download to add simple features that XP had years ago. Seriously, is this what everyone has been going ape-sh.. over? Fan-boi's :roll:

Its also DEFINITELY no better than Windows for media stuff. At least not design/content creation. Other than the command key, theres no difference between the software.

[Humus]

;1013778']...if you ignore all the x86 specific stuff in the framework :). As soon as I find the time, I'll make a properly universal binary out of the framework.

Well, all Intel-based Macs then, but that's all they produce now as I understand it, but I suppose there are many PPC based ones out there. I think it's relatively quick to fix the most obvious x86 dependencies (like in CPU.cpp), but I think it might be trickier to fix stuff like the endianness when loading files and stuff like that. I've not attempted it so I don't know how bad it would be.

Anyway, Im *not* impressed with it. I have no idea why everyone keeps harping on about it. Mac OSX is... terrible comes to mind.

Well, I enjoyed working on it. I had much less trouble than I expected. I certainly didn't have to "enable right click" or anything like that, it worked out of the box for me. As for iTunes, I didn't use that, just like I don't use media player much in Windows either. I don't really count applications when I rate OSes. You can just install something else that works better. I found that VLC worked just fine on MacOS and did everything that I need a media player to do.

The only complaint I have is that MacOS tends to hide information from me more than Windows does. Lately Microsoft seems to be attempting to beat Apple in hiding information from the user, but Apple still seams to be in the lead there.

[Diamond.G]

Well, all Intel-based Macs then, but that's all they produce now as I understand it, but I suppose there are many PPC based ones out there. I think it's relatively quick to fix the most obvious x86 dependencies (like in CPU.cpp), but I think it might be trickier to fix stuff like the endianness when loading files and stuff like that. I've not attempted it so I don't know how bad it would be.



Well, I enjoyed working on it. I had much less trouble than I expected. I certainly didn't have to "enable right click" or anything like that, it worked out of the box for me. As for iTunes, I didn't use that, just like I don't use media player much in Windows either. I don't really count applications when I rate OSes. You can just install something else that works better. I found that VLC worked just fine on MacOS and did everything that I need a media player to do.

The only complaint I have is that MacOS tends to hide information from me more than Windows does. Lately Microsoft seems to be attempting to beat Apple in hiding information from the user, but Apple still seams to be in the lead there.

IIRC you have a Mac Mini right? The notebook's don't have the two finger right mouse click enabled by default. I think that is to not confuse long time mac users. AFAIK Command+Click will always act as a right mouse button of sorts. Us Windows/*nix (PC) folks are used to the right click, so having to locate an option for it or having to rely on another button can be annoying.