French vandalize graves of those who bled to liberate it

[DemoCoder]

The disgusting story
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2907701.stm

25% of French say they want Iraq to win, only 30% want coalition to win.

[jvd]

Heh we should put the french on trial for crimes against the u.n They've already f'd up many laws and they are the ones that want the oil from iraq. Thats why they don't want a war.

[epicstruggle]

I heard that there is a couple of representatives, who want to create a fund to repatriate(sp?) the bodies of those who died overseas. Not sure how I feel about it, but I know that currently the french are insulting those who died to free them.

BTW does anyone know how many french died in the US during the revolution helping the US.

later,

[Vince]

The disgusting story

Couldn't have said it better myself.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39038000/jpg/_39038351_cemeteryafp203story.jpg

Another claimed the graves were "contaminating" French soil.

:cry:

[K.I.L.E.R]

How soon people forget... should have let Hitler have them, which, quite ironically, is what they want appearent.

That was my thought as well reading the news article.

I think those uneducated a-holes should re-live history. That would teach them.

[nutball]

I think those uneducated a-holes should re-live history. That would teach them.

The French never learn from history. It's part of their nature, it's what makes them French. Unlike the Germans they've never fully come to terms with their role in WW2 (capitulation and collaboration). They try to hide it by shouting loudly about other things. Churchill knew this, which is why he viewed the relationship with America as much more important than the relationship with the French. How right he was.

[RussSchultz]

Of course, its only a few people who did this, not the french in general.

I am disturbed, however, that 30 percent of a western nation would prefer that Saddam's regime win against another western nation who's stated goal is to instill a democratic way of life.

[Gerry]

Of course, its only a few people who did this, not the french in general.

I am disturbed, however, that 30 percent of a western nation would prefer that Saddam's regime win against another western nation who's stated goal is to instill a democratic way of life.

That was the disturbing thing I got from the article. It's likely of course that the question was phrased in such a way that the 25% is more of an anti-war vote rather than an outright "I want to see Saddam win" vote. I'd be shocked if 1 in 4 of the French actively want the coalition forces to be defeated.

[Sabastian]

While it is only a few that have done this Russ I believe it is indicative of the overall left wing Socialist destain for anything US. I believe that this overall destain is a result of misinformation being spread with regards to the US by left wing mentalities over the course of years.

The constant diatribe against the US Democracy and Capitalism coming from left wing social activist amounts to shameful acts like this. The French are becoming more and more left wing. The 30% calculation of French population hoping that Saddam wins the war is a sad indicator of just how far gone that bias has become.

It is almost unbelievable that the French would rather Saddam win the war..... it runs contrary to most of Western values. The problem here though is that I believe that the left wing bias is so bad that they must actually do believe the US is absolutely nothing but evil capitalist. I can't for the life of me understand their rational surely in any sort of intellectual argument such as stance would fail miserably. Guess that speaks volumes about education in France.

[Sabastian]

The disgusting story

Couldn't have said it better myself.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39038000/jpg/_39038351_cemeteryafp203story.jpg

Another claimed the graves were "contaminating" French soil.

:cry:

This is sick. The French ought to be ashamed of themselves for this.

[Gerry]

While it is only a few that have done this Russ I believe it is indicative of the overall left wing Socialist destain for anything US. I believe that this overall destain is a result of misinformation being spread with regards to the US by left wing mentalities over the course of years.
...
The French are becoming more and more left wing.

I could have sworn that the political shift in France has been towards the far-right and in particular Jean-Marie Le Pen. There was certainly a lot of argument about it during their last presidential elections. Seems a bit of a cheap shot to try and blame and of this on left wing socialists.

[Sxotty]

Please remember the french did not do this, some french people did.

There are many jerks in the US that would do and do, do many things that I am ashamed of but the US did not do them, the people did.

[MrsSkywalker]

Those boys buried over there gave their lives for the Franch. They didn't die for the US, Hitler never would have made it over here. They died for FRENCH freedom. And they have the unmitigated gall to dare to trash their graves?

If they don't want to buy Coke, serve hot dogs, or fly the American flag, that's fine. To disrespect those who not only gave them their freedom, but are not even here today because of their efforts, that's something completely intolerable. I think that if the apology issued by the French government was serious, then they should find whoever did this and prosecute them to the fullest extent of their laws...hmm...anyone know the laws on vandalism in France??

[Heathen]

anyone know the laws on vandalism in France??

No, but I don't think it would probably be much more than community service or a short jail term. Disgusting really.

[MrsSkywalker]

No, but I don't think it would probably be much more than community service or a short jail term. Disgusting really.

Sad, but you are probably correct. Here in the US they could be tried for vandalism, hate crimes, defacing public property, defacing a national monument (both of which are far more serious crimes than vandalizing private property)....and the prosecution could probably trump a few more up :wink: Not saying that trumping up charges is good, but I think that those people resonsible should be seriously punished. Imagine what this country's reaction would be if someone painted "Sharon must die" on the Statue of Liberty...

Hell, with 30% of the population over there praying for Saddam's victory, the punks are probably being revered as heros.

[Natoma]

Unbelievable....... :cry:

[8ender]

I agree with Sxotty, these are a "few" french people, not the entire country.

Plus, I myself hope sadam wins... Personally, I think maybe that will stop the USA from interfering with other countries affairs. I mean, in the past dictatorships are resolved naturally and by the people. I think Iraq needs to be left well enough alone for it to solve its own problems, and perhaps, in the future evolve politically.

[Crusher]

I agree with Sxotty, these are a "few" french people, not the entire country.

Plus, I myself hope sadam wins... Personally, I think maybe that will stop the USA from interfering with other countries affairs.

Interfering with other countries affairs? Newsflash: we all live on the same planet; the affairs of one country affect other countries as well. We can let Saddam murder his own people and continue to develop weapons of mass destruction until we have another cold war, or worse, multiple attacks on the U.S., Israel, Australia, the U.K., etc. by terrorist organizations using those WMDs. Or, we can stop him and maintain a decent level of relative peace in the world, where noboby, including us, has to fear that happening.

Or don't you care about living in fear?

I mean, in the past dictatorships are resolved naturally and by the people.

Which dictatorships were those? The English monarchy? The Nazi party? Milosevic in Yugoslavia? The Taliban in Afghanistan? The Central American nations where the CIA basically orchestrated the overthrow and armed the militias?

I think Iraq needs to be left well enough alone for it to solve its own problems, and perhaps, in the future evolve politically.

:lol:

[DemoCoder]

I mean, in the past dictatorships are resolved naturally and by the people. .

Naturally? At the beginning of the 20th century, the number of democracies that existed in the entire world could be counted on 1 hand. In world history, that number fit on two hands.

That means for most of recorded history, people were unable to overthrow tyrants, kings, or emperors. The only time governments changed was because of death of the ruler, assassination, being conquered by a neighboring state, or a military junta.

Even in the 20th century, this was true, and revolution by the people was the rare exception, not the rule. Most of the new democracies in this world were set up by colonialists after they abandoned their colonies, they were not revolutions against tyrants.

Of those "people's revolutions" that overthrew tyrants this century, they succeeded against governments that did not have Orwellian police state apparatus, or against governments that were crumbling anyway.

The idea that the average Iraqis or North Koreans for that matter could "rise up" is quite ludicrous. You can't "rise up" against a Stalin-type tyrant, because he will commit genocide to put down the rebellion and popular uprising.

Anti-guerilla technique is quite simple: You simply kill or deport *EVERYONE* in a city that is rebelling, instead of trying to find guerillas.


If you're trying to extrapolate the French or Communist revolutions to the 21st century, forget it. Modern weapons and technologies makes it far easier to repress. It's getting harder to rise against tyrants, not easier. And today's tyrants have the hindsight of history. Saddam learned from Stalin. Stalin ruled by fear. Saddam rules with the carrot and the stick.

[Sharkfood]

The French couldn't possibly apprehend or punish the people responsible as it would completely contradict their current media propaganda blitz of anti-American/UK, pro-Saddam ideals that they have expended massive funding putting into place.

They are on this crusade and will have to stick with it until the bitter end. This is, unfortunately, only the introductory signs of what the government in France is putting into place. Turkey is getting pulled and pushed into this little game as well and will be the first victim of this EU power struggle. The people of France will be the second casualty in this media blitz.

[pax]

Polls are such crap both to understand the motivations of those who answer them and the extremely few choices given in the first place. If this poll had been asked of me I would also have answered yes that I hope that the US loses -tho with as few casualties as possible.

Why? Because this could be a lesson to never take on dangerous regimes who have the ability to retaliate with weapons of mass destruction. Bush has put millions at risk thoughout the world with this adventure. This isnt about wishing harm on american troops. I have a long time friend who is in the marine corps. This is about legitimate concerns about where this is going and what may happen.

But of course you guys dont read French papers and assume the worse in those who answered this poll... You guys are smarter than that...

As for the vandalized graves this is as childish a form of press as you can get. I wouldnt be surprised that some punks write graffiti on those large monuments on any given year. My own small town has grave stones overturned and broken almost every halloween. But to try and make this a showcase of overall French opinion is something that shouldnt be shown on some half respectable channel like the BBC.

[Nagorak]

If it weren't for the French we'd probably have lost the War of Independence. So, if you want to go back in history in order to find a step up onto your high horse, I'd say you're out of luck.

It's too bad this is happening, but what did you expect?

You only have moronic Bush to thank for this. I don't think he even knows what the word diplomacy means. Actually, he's much like many of the people posting here, which is probably why he was elected.

Unfortunately, alienating France and Germany will hurt the US economy just as much as it will hurt theirs. This is why you don't just go off and do things that the majority of the world are opposed to.

I'm still interested in seeing how many of you change your tunes when no weapons of mass destruction are found.

[DemoCoder]

I think we repaid our War of Independence debt in WW2 in spades. Certainly the resources the US dedicated to the liberation of France were far higher in terms of men and resources then the French gave during the revolutionary war. Higher in absolute terms, and higher as a percentage. For France, it was a minor proxy war.

As for no weapons, I never supported this war for weapons reasons, and I predicted months ago that US credibility will be hurt when they don't find much. I always thought the war should be sold as a war of liberation and as a conclusion to hostiles started in 1991 that never ended because the peace treaty was broken.

As for the majority of the world, who cares? Most of the world is a basket case. Illiterate and corrupt. Let's immediately remove the opinions of the Chinese, Russians, Central Asians, and Africans. They shouldn't be in the UN anyway.

Like the World Trade Organization, there should be a minimum standard set for membership in the UN, non-democracies need not apply.


If we boil this down, it is really the US vs Western Europe, and when it comes down to it, I prefer the American view of the world to the European view -- a view of politics and economics heavily weighted towards appeasement: appeasement of the working classes, appeasement of dictators, appeasement of political groups, appeasement of anyone with a greivance. It's a static collectivist no-conflict model of forces they seek to avoid non-consensus.

On the other hand, I think disagreement, competition, and conflict are good.

[Gollum]

This is a really disgusting and shameful act of vandalism, more proof humanity will never run out of nutcases and people going completely mental. :(

I just wish to remind everybody, like others before me, that this is an act comitted by a few retards, and is in no way representative of the French people as a whole. We all have our problems with them frenchmen, but lets keep real and not try to give the impression this was something the french people would support.

While it is only a few that have done this Russ I believe it is indicative of the overall left wing Socialist destain for anything US. I believe that this overall destain is a result of misinformation being spread with regards to the US by left wing mentalities over the course of years.
You can continue to believe what you want, that doesn't make it true though. France has been through a slow but significant shift towards the extreme right wing over the past decade or so. In contrast the left wing parties have consistently lost ground over the years. The current neogaullist goverment under Chirac is not as easy to classify as e.g. the 2 US parties (France's parties and political diversity is much more complex in comparison), but can generally be considered to be right wing conservative, with a prime-minister who is more moderate AFAIK.

[8ender]

Polls are such crap both to understand the motivations of those who answer them and the extremely few choices given in the first place. If this poll had been asked of me I would also have answered yes that I hope that the US loses -tho with as few casualties as possible.

Why? Because this could be a lesson to never take on dangerous regimes who have the ability to retaliate with weapons of mass destruction. Bush has put millions at risk thoughout the world with this adventure. This isnt about wishing harm on american troops. I have a long time friend who is in the marine corps. This is about legitimate concerns about where this is going and what may happen.


My thoughts exactly, the USA is in the business of establishing client states right now. They have learned from colonialism that directly controlling a countries government is not the right idea. Establishing a democracy is a much easier way to rape a country for its resources. Democracys are easily corruptable, will allow the Multinationals in, and the people of said country seem to think they have a say in things.

If the current elected government stands up for itself, the US can simply drop support, or establish trade embargo's and watch as the elected government, not the USA, is blamed when the quality of life goes into the shitter.

Iraq is going to end up another bitch state the USA can add to the list. Why I don't want Iraq to lose is because I don't want to see the bloodshed that will come with this and I don't want to see the USA aquire another client state under the guise of heroism.

Edit:

P.S - I also think this war is a shameful kick in the nuts to the U.N., especially after Saddam agreed to disarm.

[Humus]

The disgusting story
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2907701.stm

25% of French say they want Iraq to win, only 30% want coalition to win.

No, it says "25% - support Iraq". This is not synonymous with "want Iraq to win". The problem is how the question is formulated. It's hard for a anti-war activist to decide how to vote. I would think these numbers rather represent something like this:

34% - Thinks the war is the right thing to do and wants the US to win.
25% - Thinks the war is wrong, but may not neccesarily want Iraq to win. Thinks attacks on Iraq is unmotivated.
31% - Dislikes both the US and the Iraqi regime.

[Humus]

While it is only a few that have done this Russ I believe it is indicative of the overall left wing Socialist destain for anything US. I believe that this overall destain is a result of misinformation being spread with regards to the US by left wing mentalities over the course of years.

The constant diatribe against the US Democracy and Capitalism coming from left wing social activist amounts to shameful acts like this. The French are becoming more and more left wing. The 30% calculation of French population hoping that Saddam wins the war is a sad indicator of just how far gone that bias has become.

It is almost unbelievable that the French would rather Saddam win the war..... it runs contrary to most of Western values. The problem here though is that I believe that the left wing bias is so bad that they must actually do believe the US is absolutely nothing but evil capitalist. I can't for the life of me understand their rational surely in any sort of intellectual argument such as stance would fail miserably. Guess that speaks volumes about education in France.

I know you dislike left-wingers, but do at least use facts instead of pure BS you cooked up yourself. :roll: The French is clearly moving far-right if anything. The amount of support for Le Pen with his far-right nationalistic policies was incredibly disturbing in the last election. In the end, it was a fight between a rightist (Chirac) and a far-rightist (Le Pen). Fortunately, Le Pen lost.

[8ender]

I know you dislike left-wingers, but do at least use facts instead of pure BS you cooked up yourself. :roll: The French is clearly moving far-right if anything. The amount of support for Le Pen with his far-right nationalistic policies was incredibly disturbing in the last election. In the end, it was a fight between a rightist (Chirac) and a far-rightist (Le Pen). Fortunately, Le Pen lost.

I cant recall from where, but I was under the impression that the EU in general was moving towards the left.

Edit:
Offtopic, but after viewing your site I have a just one piece of input from a graphic designers point of view.

Your menu fonts are a little hard to read.

Also, are you living in Canda or just visiting. If living, what kind of Internet connection are you using and how do you feel about it?

Edit2:
My bad, just re-read your site.. Welcome to Canada, and I personally reccomend Rogers High Speed for your internet needs. It kicks the pants off of Bell's DSL. Also, are you at the Markham ATI location or Toronto?

[Humus]

The French couldn't possibly apprehend or punish the people responsible as it would completely contradict their current media propaganda blitz of anti-American/UK, pro-Saddam ideals that they have expended massive funding putting into place.

Just because the french doesn't support the war doesn't mean they support vandalism on graves or disrespect of those who saved them in WWII.

[Humus]

I'm still interested in seeing how many of you change your tunes when no weapons of mass destruction are found.

WMD's or not, Saddam should be done away with anyway. He should have been removed in 1991 already and we wouldn't have had any problems today. It could be argued whether or not Saddam is a problem to the west at all, but he sure is a problem for the Iraqi people.

[Humus]

I cant recall from where, but I was under the impression that the EU in general was moving towards the left.

Edit:
Offtopic, but after viewing your site I have a just one piece of input from a graphic designers point of view.

Your menu fonts are a little hard to read.

Also, are you living in Canda or just visiting. If living, what kind of Internet connection are you using and how do you feel about it?

Edit2:
My bad, just re-read your site.. Welcome to Canada, and I personally reccomend Rogers High Speed for your internet needs. It kicks the pants off of Bell's DSL. Also, are you at the Markham ATI location or Toronto?

I don't think there's a general EU-trend in politics. If anything, it would probably be a trend towards the center as the EU tries to widens it's cooperations.

As for my website. It's hard to please everyone, including myself. ;)

I'm staying in a hotel a few hundred meters from the Markham office. For the internet access, I'm just staying an hour or two after work browsing the usual forums. ATi's internet access seams to be fine to me, no idea what ISP they have. Maybe slightly slower than at home in Sweden.

[Sharkfood]

Just because the french doesn't support the war doesn't mean they support vandalism on graves or disrespect of those who saved them in WWII.

If you will notice, the point has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not someone is "for" or "against" the war. The ethic being media blitzed by the French is one of anti-US/UK... regardless of war. Their primary concern is whether or not their multi-billion dollar oil contracts sold at the final hour will be forced to be honored in a post-Sadamm Iraq. As this has been deemed impossible by the U.N., with the Coalition standpoint being the country will be freed to the *people* for their own decisions/usage, with no shackles on resources from the dictator, thus continues a massive campaign already started by the French which is to cause such feelings against the west/UK.

[Sabastian]

I know you dislike left-wingers, but do at least use facts instead of pure BS you cooked up yourself. :roll: The French is clearly moving far-right if anything. The amount of support for Le Pen with his far-right nationalistic policies was incredibly disturbing in the last election. In the end, it was a fight between a rightist (Chirac) and a far-rightist (Le Pen). Fortunately, Le Pen lost.

A move to the right as compared to what? Sweeden? Give me a break... Chirac is left as left can be. As far as Le Pen goes I don't know what his plateform is but I seriously doubt that it has anything to do with breaking down Frances Socialist government infrastructure. I don't agree that his racist portion of his plateform is nessesarily "right wing" and that is all I know about him through the media filter here in Canada. Something to do with immigration? From what I hear the Sweedes are having a bit of a multicultural hissy fit as well. Ahh the bleesings of multiculturalism.

[pax]

Just because the french doesn't support the war doesn't mean they support vandalism on graves or disrespect of those who saved them in WWII.

If you will notice, the point has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not someone is "for" or "against" the war. The ethic being media blitzed by the French is one of anti-US/UK... regardless of war. Their primary concern is whether or not their multi-billion dollar oil contracts sold at the final hour will be forced to be honored in a post-Sadamm Iraq. As this has been deemed impossible by the U.N., with the Coalition standpoint being the country will be freed to the *people* for their own decisions/usage, with no shackles on resources from the dictator, thus continues a massive campaign already started by the French which is to cause such feelings against the west/UK.

Again it must be noted that the minor *unsigned* agreements with french corps and Saddan Hussein cant hold any water to risking trade with the US and UK. This is simply a bad argument thats persists to ignore and shun aside the serious concerns of the war in Iraq. To see this continously regurgitated shows how badly the US press has seriously betrayed its obligations to the american public ...

[Deflection]

Again it must be noted that the minor *unsigned* agreements with french corps and Saddan Hussein cant hold any water to risking trade with the US and UK. This is simply a bad argument thats persists to ignore and shun aside the serious concerns of the war in Iraq. To see this continously regurgitated shows how badly the US press has seriously betrayed its obligations to the american public ...

rofl. The US press is only following the worlds good example. Funny how the ad hominem attacks can go both ways. But I essentially agree with you. It's unfortunate that many "anti-war" protesters could care less about the war itself except as an opportunity to air their own grievances against the US.

Here's some more for those that love them...

French Prime Minister Chirac sells Nuclear reactor to dictator of a country that contains the worlds 2nd largest Oil reserve (http://www.time.com/time/europe/magazine/2003/0224/cover/timeline.html)

Chirac Assassin - France sends troops to the Ivory Coast (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/2728909.stm)

[DemoCoder]

Well, just because some corporations make up a small fraction of the nation's income, doesn't seem to stop them accusing the US either. I will note that so-called military contractor companies are a small fraction of our GDP and that the vast majority of corporations in the US lose out in a war. Why does McDonalds, Walmart, or Microsoft want a war?

Yet this doesn't stop people from speculating that the war is about military contractors making profit, despite the fact that much of the ordinance and ammo being used is surplus dating back from decades JDAM = Old Bombs built years ago with cheap kits attached. With 90% of the corps making products unrelated to war, in fact, what hurts their ability to trade, wouldn't the government cater to them instead?

But no, the entire government is in the hands of a few oil companies and weapons manufacturers.

Of course, if you would point out that the French government sold weapons and nuclear technology to Iraq, in addition to their oil company, Elf, standing to lose big time, people will come emit the same defense I outlined above (small fraction of overall economy)

A note about precision weapons: Wouldn't defense contractors prefer to sell inaccurate bombs so that the number of them that must be used per target is maximized? The margins are higher on the dumb bombs, and they are cycled through the inventory much quicker.

[Simon F]

Imagine what this country's reaction would be if someone painted "Sharon must die" on the Statue of Liberty...

Ironic that you chose that French monument. ;)


Seriously though, unfortunately there are loonies wherever you go.

[MrsSkywalker]

Ironic that you chose that French monument.

Not irony...I was trying to think of a famous French monument in the US and that's the only one I could think of.... :)

[Humus]

A move to the right as compared to what? Sweeden? Give me a break... Chirac is left as left can be. As far as Le Pen goes I don't know what his plateform is but I seriously doubt that it has anything to do with breaking down Frances Socialist government infrastructure. I don't agree that his racist portion of his plateform is nessesarily "right wing" and that is all I know about him through the media filter here in Canada. Something to do with immigration? From what I hear the Sweedes are having a bit of a multicultural hissy fit as well. Ahh the bleesings of multiculturalism.

I'm not comparing to Sweden, I know Sweden is too far left and want us to move further to the right. But you taking every opportunity to bash socialism on arbitrary grounds is quite annoying. To you maybe everything but far-right is left, but that doesn't change that Chirac runs a party that's considered right and Le Pen runs a party that's far right. You are the first one I've seen thinking that France are being leftists or moving towards to left or that there is growing socialistic movements there. I simple google search will prove you wrong.

First link gooling on "french political parties".
http://www.prs.k12.nj.us/~ewood/CompGovt/France/francepolpart.html

"In 1974 the party was reorganized as the RPR under the leadership of Jacques Chirac who later became Prime Minister and eventually President in 1995. The party lost popularity during the 1980s as the Socialists gained power, but recently has regained strength in the parliamentary elections of 1993 and presidential election of 1995 at least partially because of its successful coalition with the UDF."

"The National Front was founded in 1972 by Jean-Marie Le Pen, and remained relatively obscure until the 1980s. In the parliamentary elections of the 1980s, the National Front gained support, winning 14.4 percent of the toal vote in 1988. The membership is characterized as being far right with a focus on law and order and anti-immigration. Le Pen emphasizes French nationalism and wants stricter controls on immigration, particularly from Islamic countries. Although the party's support had dwindled by 1993, it still remains an important force on the far right."

[Nagorak]

Well, just because some corporations make up a small fraction of the nation's income, doesn't seem to stop them accusing the US either. I will note that so-called military contractor companies are a small fraction of our GDP and that the vast majority of corporations in the US lose out in a war. Why does McDonalds, Walmart, or Microsoft want a war?

Yet this doesn't stop people from speculating that the war is about military contractors making profit, despite the fact that much of the ordinance and ammo being used is surplus dating back from decades JDAM = Old Bombs built years ago with cheap kits attached. With 90% of the corps making products unrelated to war, in fact, what hurts their ability to trade, wouldn't the government cater to them instead?

But no, the entire government is in the hands of a few oil companies and weapons manufacturers.

Some of it might be hysterics, but you're overlooking who is involved in the government. Does Cheney have any ties to McDonalds? I don't rememeber Bush owning any stock in Walmart?

Your argument is akin to saying "Wouldn't the US government stop the embargo against Cuba if it didn't benefit everyone?" When the truth is, support for the Cuban embargo has been waning for years, and the only ones who still heavily support it are among Florida's Cuban exile community. If such a small special interest group can wield so much influence, who is to say that the oil companies might not have the President's ear? Not to mention, if they have nothing to hide, the Bush adminstration hasn't helped matters with their refusal to turn over the minutes of their meeting with energy company officials (including Enron, LOL).

But, anyway, if this really isn't about oil, the US can easily show it by 1) letting the UN rebuild Iraq and not try to go it alone, 2) seeing that oil and restoration contracts are given mostly to French and Russian companies (or equally). Unfortunately, as we can see from the "Freedom Fries and Freedom Toast" debacle, the US government isn't above petty sniping and bickering. Honestly, Congress has no business engaging in such juvenile antics. And now there's talk from some Representatives of penalizing French companies due to disagreements with their government. This sort of nonsense isn't good for anyone. :x

What will end up happening is we'll give most of the contracts to US companies, basically proving the rest of the world right, whether or not there were malicious intentions behind it. The sad thing about the US, really, isn't that it's so bad: it's just that it doesn't come anywhere near to living up to its potential. :cry:

A note about precision weapons: Wouldn't defense contractors prefer to sell inaccurate bombs so that the number of them that must be used per target is maximized? The margins are higher on the dumb bombs, and they are cycled through the inventory much quicker.

Nah, they put a $5 microprocessor in them and then they can charge 100 times as much. ;)

Not everything is run by Corporations, but that doesn't mean they don't wield a ridiculous amount of power. Not everything is a conspiracy, but by the same token, it doesn't mean there aren't any (although conspiracy isn't even the right word).

[Sxotty]

My thoughts exactly, the USA is in the business of establishing client states right now. ... Establishing a democracy is a much easier way to rape a country for its resources. Democracys are easily corruptable, will allow the Multinationals in, and the people of said country seem to think they have a say in things.
especially after Saddam agreed to disarm.

LOL my goodness your are pretty crazy man, are you trying to inflame people or do you actually believe such drivel?

It is much easier to control a state that is not democratic, if there is only one ass controling the state you just convince him, how the same way the US had been doing for the last 30 years, it is not difficult. Of course now we realize that in the long run that is a counterproductive strategy because a bunch of totalitarian regimes breed terrorists, because the people have a shitty life and if it sucks to live why not die gloriously.

The best way to a stable world is to have a planet where everyone has a decent standard of living, and totalitarian regimes are not always the best at providing that goal.

edit: oh yeah I forgot the part about saddam deciding to disarm, are you talking about when we attacked him in 91 and he said he would to save his sorry ass? Or are you talking about now when we threatened him until he pretended he would and did nothing, except destroy a few missles when he could produce them at a higher rate than they were being destroyed.

Not to mention he already violated every resolution so many times it is laughable, and is obviously a violent megalomaniac.

[Simon F]

A note about precision weapons: Wouldn't defense contractors prefer to sell inaccurate bombs so that the number of them that must be used per target is maximized? The margins are higher on the dumb bombs, and they are cycled through the inventory much quicker.

Nah, they put a $5 microprocessor in them and then they can charge 100 times as much. ;)
Do you mean Mil-spec chips that are shielded by a wad of cash?

[pax]

Pretty obvious after Panama, Afghanistan and Iraq that ally states who are dictatorships arent as controllable as they used to be in the 'good old days'... Not to mention the problems supporting dictators now creates with some western allies.

Heck sxotty your 2nd paragraph contradicts your first...

[RussSchultz]

A note about precision weapons: Wouldn't defense contractors prefer to sell inaccurate bombs so that the number of them that must be used per target is maximized? The margins are higher on the dumb bombs, and they are cycled through the inventory much quicker.

Nah, they put a $5 microprocessor in them and then they can charge 100 times as much. ;)
Do you mean Mil-spec chips that are shielded by a wad of cash?
To qualify for mil-spec is a long list of things. Its terribly expensive, and the quantities are small so there's no economy of scale.

[Simon F]

Do you mean Mil-spec chips that are shielded by a wad of cash?
To qualify for mil-spec is a long list of things. Its terribly expensive, and the quantities are small so there's no economy of scale.
Fair enough, but you have to laugh (or cry) at some stories of items (toilet seats?) that were sold with exorbitant mark ups!

[Silent_One]

I thought the toilet seats ($600??) were for the space shuttle?

[Simon F]

I thought the toilet seats ($600??) were for the space shuttle?
Quite possibly. Perhaps Mil-Spec should be renamed "Qango spec"