View Full Version : [H] reviews the KillerNIC...
Tim Murray
09-Dec-2006, 23:24
Hey guys, what's the difference between reviewing audiophile components and PC equipment? Nothing! (http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTIzOSwxLCxoZW50aHVzaWFzdA==)
Subjective reviews, mmhmm.
What a freaking joke. I hope [H] was paid well for their services. :roll:
Someone needs to do a scientific and controlled review of it. They need to compare it to the common onboard NICS (nForce-4, Marvel, nForce 680i, p965, p975) and also add-in NICs of PCI and PCI-Express flavors (3com, Intel, Marvel, Cisco). They need to do controlled network throughput, latency, and cpu usage benchmarks. They should also utilize Windows XP and Windows Vista since Vista has an entirely rewritten networking stack. Also, the in-game situations they need to be exactly reproducable -- which seems to be impossible to do in the current games used.
Skrying
10-Dec-2006, 00:33
There's a lot of steps that can be done in order to review the KillerNIC in a proper way, none of which were taken with it in the [H] review.
However, I've yet to come across a way to reproduce an online game exactly, in fact its impossible I would guess, graphically you can (demos) but there's a number of things you'd be missing, one of which is the network usage part.
Citrous
10-Dec-2006, 04:41
I love how they go so far as to tie in being "hardcore" helping you notice the improvements more. Anyone who thinks of themselves as any sort of truly competitive gamer would relate to that professional. Your machine can't be "ahead of the server". Such garbage. *vomit*
[H]= Truthiness 2 the XTREME :!: :!: :!: :wink:
SugarCoat
10-Dec-2006, 05:06
result? of course$250US isnt worth it. This thing has been around for awhile and hasnt moved anywhere, i see they slapped some stupid heatsink on it as well now.
Really what it comes down to is it may very well improve pings and *framerates by 0-2-3%, but in my opinion its not even worth trying to prove since for $250 you could problably upgrade your processor, graphics card, or buy Vista (assuming the new network stack effects it in the positive). All of which go a hell of a long way further than this gimmick which attempts to poorly improve something that you get for free on 99% of motherboards produced today. This is exactly like 'gaming' marketed routers that are useless due to the data bandwidth limit being on the end of the ISP and server.
*Thinking about it i bet the framerate gain is totally nuked in a graphics limited situation which online games switch to all the time as things like more models render in your average HL2/Unreal/BF/MMO game.
Rainbow Man
10-Dec-2006, 13:11
Things like this card is worth the money if you as a buyer think it's worth the money. This doesn't change depending on positive (or negative) opinions on the web; like anyone would really decide that chocolate ice cream isn't their favorite flavor anymore because some guy on the web says he hates that..
It's a geek network card. If you like geeky stuff and the software for it works the way it's supposed to, then it's probably worth the money.
I seem to remember it's basically a Linux system on a card and that you could write programs for it. That increases geekyness factor even more. If people make some interesting stuff for the card then it could become even more worth it, for those that are already interested in stuff like this.
It's like those xfi soundblasters or agiga or whatever physics cards. Not for everybodym, but if people enjoy stuff like that then buy it..
Peace.
Skrying
10-Dec-2006, 17:41
Things like this card is worth the money if you as a buyer think it's worth the money. This doesn't change depending on positive (or negative) opinions on the web; like anyone would really decide that chocolate ice cream isn't their favorite flavor anymore because some guy on the web says he hates that..
It's a geek network card. If you like geeky stuff and the software for it works the way it's supposed to, then it's probably worth the money.
I seem to remember it's basically a Linux system on a card and that you could write programs for it. That increases geekyness factor even more. If people make some interesting stuff for the card then it could become even more worth it, for those that are already interested in stuff like this.
It's like those xfi soundblasters or agiga or whatever physics cards. Not for everybodym, but if people enjoy stuff like that then buy it..
Peace.
Except the X-Fi cards actually DO something, which in this case is extremely important. Add to the fact that Creative has been doing it for years now and at least slowly has made advancements. Sadly they'll have to start that back up from scratch (using OpenAL) once Vista comes out as many of their once key games will be missing their features (Vista's new audio stack).
This card on the other hand really serves little purpose for what its actually sold for. Trust me, if a "geek" was really interested and had a reason to be running Linux they'd would have been doing it ages ago. The Killer NIC does next to nothing, I strongly do not believe a products "geek factor" should be a worthy way to judge a product.
The real issue in this thread was the review though. Purposely going around any real form of testing the product and being complete bullshit the entire time. Its very clear that its nothing more than a PR move in order to target the "gaming" crowd. There's a number of ways to test the card in a much more legitimate fashion that have already pointed out to in this thread.
Tim Murray
10-Dec-2006, 18:19
It's like those xfi soundblasters or agiga or whatever physics cards. Not for everybodym, but if people enjoy stuff like that then buy it..
Bullshit. Computer hardware isn't audiophile gear. You can actually test the impact of specific components in a closed environment without spending hundreds of thousands of dollars or worrying about people's opinion in determining whether something is useful. [H] apparently thought it was a good idea to take a product whose value is uncertain, do only subjective tests, and call it a day. I don't even know how Kyle Bennett of all people can be satisfied with that "review."
At this rate, we're going to be seeing shit like "Brilliant Pebbles for Gamers" or the "Clever Little CMOS Battery" in a year.
edit: I just looked up some of the Machina Dynamica snake oil and saw how the customer comments compared to the KillerNIC review. It's pretty telling... (http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina19.htm)
John Reynolds
10-Dec-2006, 18:34
Ahead of the server? Bigfoot Networks needs to add quantum physics processing to the Killer NICs marketing bulletpoints.
Ahead of the server? Bigfoot Networks needs to add quantum physics processing to the Killer NICs marketing bulletpoints.
Don't give them any ideas! :lol:
Eh, I guess players' gut feelings are now [H]'s review standard. I was actually wondering what they would come up with since they've been telling us about the supposed worthlessness of empirical "canned benchmarks" for quite a while now.
Himself
11-Dec-2006, 01:44
A hardware way to use a linux network stack instead of windows? Interesting, if rather sad comment on the state of the Windows stack, lol. Uhm, seems to me a software solution could do much of the same thing, just replace the windows stack. Only diff is the offloading of the computer for a task that generally takes 0-1% cpu time. Interesting tread, windows multitasking sucks, get multi core cpus, networking sucks, get a nic that has linux on it. lol
jamesnmandy
11-Dec-2006, 02:26
i dont see the big deal.....the Killer NIC, been a waste from day one, never bought into that marketing trap for one second
as far as [H]'s review, i dont see the problem, it's not wrong to review an item this way, nor is it any more wrong to review it the way Anandtech did it
http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.aspx?i=2865
Anandtech analyzed it with Networking tools, [H] analysed it with real world gameplay impact, or lack thereof.....but lets face it, 99% of people buying this thing and using it will only get the "real world" impact out of it anyways, so i can totally understand the validity of this review, i know most of you guys are looking for colorful charts that show a .02341 difference in latency, etc...etc.....
i keep looking for the B3D review of the Killer NIC and cannot seem to find it......because i was just so sure with so many critical responses from B3D members, certainly they would be comparing/contrasting the [H] review to their own.....but I guess there is nothing to compare to
not that i think it is worth anyones time reviewing it, but, still.....
Skrying
11-Dec-2006, 02:39
You're telling us we must review the product before we can state anything about the review of a product? That's pure bullshit.
The fact is that the review is completely useless and tip toes around doing anything of use. The comments from "real" gamers are completely bullshit. As pointed up above with the likes of "ahead of the server" type comments. Maybe they should have pointed some obvious points to their tester. Of course the card is still worth a pretty Silver award for being nothing but a very expensive K heatsink in your case.
Add to the fact that HardOCP prides itself on its splendid and straight reviews. Yeah....
jamesnmandy
11-Dec-2006, 02:49
You're telling us we must review the product before we can state anything about the review of a product? That's pure bullshit.
The fact is that the review is completely useless and tip toes around doing anything of use. The comments from "real" gamers are completely bullshit. As pointed up above with the likes of "ahead of the server" type comments. Maybe they should have pointed some obvious points to their tester. Of course the card is still worth a pretty Silver award for being nothing but a very expensive K heatsink in your case.
Add to the fact that HardOCP prides itself on its splendid and straight reviews. Yeah....
i'm saying put your money where your mouth is, get Bigfoot to grant B3D a Killer NIC review and do it the way you guys want it done instead of badmouthing someone else's attempt, although, Kyle will give a crap less, he has his own way of reviewing and you have your's.....or....you would if you had a review of course, but at any rate, he has stated time and time again, that if you dont like his methods, go read someone else's, feel free to post all the opinionated comments you want on someone else's review, but last time i checked the mantra around here was about how opinions are pretty worthless and should be backed up with facts or some sort of substantiation of sorts......that's what i am asking for, walk the talk
i agree that the review was rather shallow and shy of nice numerical data, however, not everyone gets their jollies off reading pie charts and seeing .012531232 bits of difference, believe it or not, there are more people out there that just want to know how much better if at all it will make their experience
you seem to drive home my sentiments that the card is worthless
i really enjoy both types of reviews, when [H] or another site reviews a video card, i go there and read that review to see how it performed in a real world scenario, then i come here to see the really technical aspects of why it performs so much better (or worse) and to get some good ole' raw data, there's nothing wrong with either, it's all a matter of opinion, and i think there's room on the "world wide web" for all sorts of reviews, i simply take it upon myself to read several and do my research and form my own opinion before i buy:wink:
digitalwanderer
11-Dec-2006, 02:55
i'm saying put your money where your mouth is, get Bigfoot to grant B3D a Killer NIC review and do it the way you guys want it done instead of badmouthing someone else's attempt
Tell ya what, you get a hold of Bigfoot and convince them to send one to Beyond3D where it will get a true review and I'll get Baron to do it. :)
They won't, guaranteed. B3D won't say what Bigfoot wants reviewers to say about their Killer NIC. :razz:
K.I.L.E.R
11-Dec-2006, 02:57
Is this worth buying or not?
I've already pre-ordered.
Skrying
11-Dec-2006, 03:00
Do you honestly believe there is any real reason why all of the testing was done in house at Bigfoot's offices? Please.
There is no method in the review. None, its a big advertisement.
You must one huge website in order to get the card away from their offices, or you have to spend the money to get one. For some reason there must be a odd reason why the majority of user feedback has been negative.
jamesnmandy
11-Dec-2006, 03:04
Do you honestly believe there is any real reason why all of the testing was done in house at Bigfoot's offices? Please.
There is no method in the review. None, its a big advertisement.
You must one huge website in order to get the card away from their offices, or you have to spend the money to get one. For some reason there must be a odd reason why the majority of user feedback has been negative.
agreed, i thought that was particularly unsettling and basically nullified any "findings" as far as i am concerned, but then again, i already knew in my own mind that it was trash to begin with, i was interested to see if they came up with any different results than Anandtech did, and basically they didn't, there is very little measurable and meaningful good coming from such a proposed purchase, both reviews verified my initial thoughts, one in one way, the other in another way, neither is wrong
Tell ya what, you get a hold of Bigfoot and convince them to send one to Beyond3D where it will get a true review and I'll get Baron to do it. :)
They won't, guaranteed. B3D won't say what Bigfoot wants reviewers to say about their Killer NIC. :razz:
i wish you guys could......Anandtech seemed to have gotten them to do their own testing though, and didn't exactly post a positive review.....and if you visit the discussion thread (as some of you obviously have based on writing style :wink: ) at [H] you will find that an employee of Bigfoot posted saying that [H] was provided cards to take with them to explore further, so this is not necessarily all there is to come....
Rainbow Man
11-Dec-2006, 03:19
Bullshit.
No need to be so hostile, man...
We're all merely voicing our opinions here and not absolute truths, and we're all equally welcome to do so in a calm and orderly fashion, am I right or wrong? I hope I didnt poick the wront webforum to register on, because I'm not interested in one that suppresses some peoples viewpoints..
Computer hardware isn't audiophile gear.
Do note I never said it was either. Don't put words in my mouth, or posts. Thanks.
[H] apparently thought it was a good idea to take a product whose value is uncertain, do only subjective tests, and call it a day. I don't even know how Kyle Bennett of all people can be satisfied with that "review."
I haven't even commented on the review or its perhaps lacking methodlogy so no point in trying to pin me on anything there bud.
I've no idea how good or bad that test was because I never read it. I merely said that from a personal judgement viewpoint, this card can very well be worth the money with nobody being able to say otherwise.
You can buy diamond-encrusted gold watches for a million dollars. it doesnt really tell time any better than any other timepiece for say a ten-thousandth the price and probably worse than some. Yet for some people a watch like that is worth the money despite being overly expensive and pointless (to most of us)
Same thing here.
Peace.
Tim Murray
11-Dec-2006, 05:44
You can buy diamond-encrusted gold watches for a million dollars. it doesnt really tell time any better than any other timepiece for say a ten-thousandth the price and probably worse than some. Yet for some people a watch like that is worth the money despite being overly expensive and pointless (to most of us)
Same thing here.
If it's the same thing here, then yes, computer hardware has now been reduced to audiophile gear, where you have subjective reviews where the only indication of quality or value is whether or not somebody feels that it has value. And if that's true, why even bother calling something a review? You have no control. There is nothing scientific about it. When you have something with a function that can be measured, throwing objectivity out the window is a disservice to people who put faith in what you're writing.
As far as reviewing a KillerNIC, not my cup of tea. Although, the idea of running apps on the card is interesting (maybe a honeypot on the network card? that's kind of a hilarious idea)...
Someone needs to do a scientific and controlled review of it. They need to compare it to the common onboard NICS (nForce-4, Marvel, nForce 680i, p965, p975) and also add-in NICs of PCI and PCI-Express flavors (3com, Intel, Marvel, Cisco). They need to do controlled network throughput, latency, and cpu usage benchmarks. They should also utilize Windows XP and Windows Vista since Vista has an entirely rewritten networking stack.
You know, I'd really like to see a half-decent modern NIC review of any kind. I guess when even the ubiquitous RTL series works well enough, there's no point...
digitalwanderer
11-Dec-2006, 07:16
(maybe a honeypot on the network card? that's kind of a hilarious idea)...
That would just about justify the price of it to me for pure giggle value alone! http://www.elitebastards.com/forum/images/smiles/rofl.gifhttp://www.elitebastards.com/forum/images/smiles/rofl.gifhttp://www.elitebastards.com/forum/images/smiles/rofl.gif
Tim Murray
11-Dec-2006, 07:19
You know, I'd really like to see a half-decent modern NIC review of any kind. I guess when even the ubiquitous RTL series works well enough, there's no point...
The thing is, I don't think you'll ever see a decent NIC review as long as the bus used is PCI.
OT: that machina dynamica bunch must be seriously on crack. Or is the whole thing just a joke? Can't tell for sure, but it's mind-bending either way. Pebbles improving freq response and lowering the noise? Yeah, right... :roll:
KillerNIC is a waste of money solely existing to suck in the gamer enthusiast so they can add another few l33t words on their PC spec signiatures. Sadly enough they will sell a lot solely because of this.
Anandtech analyzed it with Networking tools, [H] analysed it with real world gameplay impact, or lack thereof.....but lets face it, 99% of people buying this thing and using it will only get the "real world" impact out of it anyways, so i can totally understand the validity of this review, i know most of you guys are looking for colorful charts that show a .02341 difference in latency, etc...etc.....
[H] didn't analyze the "real world" impact on gameplay, they merely had a bunch of retards describing what's most likely a placebo effect.
I read the "review" this morning and agree that it seems more like a marketing exercise rather that a means of finding the hard line benefits of the hardware. [H] have focused a lot on this product and the company that makes it seems to be local to [H]'s base. I wonder if this is the reason why it gets so much coverage on the site?
edit: I just looked up some of the Machina Dynamica snake oil and saw how the customer comments compared to the KillerNIC review. It's pretty telling... (http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina19.htm)
"It's no exaggeration to say that with the Pebbles in place
Regular CDs now sound better than SACDs did before." -- Gabriel G., PhD
Oh, hilarious! :D
Tim Murray
11-Dec-2006, 16:08
OT: that machina dynamica bunch must be seriously on crack. Or is the whole thing just a joke? Can't tell for sure, but it's mind-bending either way. Pebbles improving freq response and lowering the noise? Yeah, right... :roll:
100% real. There are some audiophiles that really are that nuts.
You guys are just jealous. I have TWO Killer NICs - one for outbound packets and one for inbound packets - and now I'm a full 5 seconds ahead of the server. I can actually headshot guys BEFORE they enter the game! ha!
Next I'm going to use the new Killer Motherboard with dual northbridge and southbridge chips each with their own embedded linux machine that can really make things fly!
jamesnmandy
11-Dec-2006, 17:07
[H] didn't analyze the "real world" impact on gameplay, they merely had a bunch of retards describing what's most likely a placebo effect.
you call it what you want, but they took the same machine, ran it with and without, and other than WoW it seems there was no positive improvements, even one game seemed to run worse.......
you act like they ran it without and then ran it with and made comments like OMG NOW IT TOTALLY RAWKS!! but they didn't......did you even read it?
you call it what you want, but they took the same machine, ran it with and without, and other than WoW it seems there was no positive improvements, even one game seemed to run worse.......
you act like they ran it without and then ran it with and made comments like OMG NOW IT TOTALLY RAWKS!! but they didn't......did you even read it?
Quote from the "review":
"He was easily able to identify his gaming session using the Killer NIC with confidence. One of the more notable things he conveyed to me was that his “machine was ahead of what was on the server.” He explained this was allowing him to take shots and get cover before others had time to react to his presence. Joshua said the the onboard NIC felt the same as his machine at home, but the Killer NIC gave him a better experience in that it, “felt smoother with less lag kills.” He went on to note that the overall reaction felt better and the Killer NIC supplied a smoothness of play he did not get with the onboard NIC.
One rather humorous note he made was that the Killer NIC did away with the “spray and pray” element of the game. He summed it all with saying this about the Killer NIC differences. “It does make me want to get one, but I don't have that much money.”"
So yes, I've read it. Did you? Apparently not.
If you want less latency, get a better provider. And use a good router.
jamesnmandy
11-Dec-2006, 18:13
Quote from the "review":
"He was easily able to identify his gaming session using the Killer NIC with confidence. One of the more notable things he conveyed to me was that his “machine was ahead of what was on the server.” He explained this was allowing him to take shots and get cover before others had time to react to his presence. Joshua said the the onboard NIC felt the same as his machine at home, but the Killer NIC gave him a better experience in that it, “felt smoother with less lag kills.” He went on to note that the overall reaction felt better and the Killer NIC supplied a smoothness of play he did not get with the onboard NIC.
One rather humorous note he made was that the Killer NIC did away with the “spray and pray” element of the game. He summed it all with saying this about the Killer NIC differences. “It does make me want to get one, but I don't have that much money.”"
So yes, I've read it. Did you? Apparently not.
thanks for making my point.......they didn't react the way you made it out to be, like "a bunch of retards"
Sorry but anyone whom thinks a their “machine was ahead of what was on the server.” and a site that posts that kind of drivel into an actual review would be considered a retard by many here.
thanks for making my point.......they didn't react the way you made it out to be, like "a bunch of retards"
Making your point? What I quoted was probably one of the most retarded things I've ever read on a professional hardware review site.
There are audiophiles who swear that they can hear the difference when using directional speaker cable. Apparently the cable has different conductivity in one direction than the other. Think about that for a second. I know! Semi-conductor cables!
There are audiophiles who swear that they can hear the difference when using directional speaker cable. Apparently the cable has different conductivity in one direction than the other. Think about that for a second. I know! Semi-conductor cables!
Well, they're sure there is more to experiencing sound than what can be measured by mere machines.
;)
digitalwanderer
11-Dec-2006, 19:48
There are audiophiles who swear that they can hear the difference when using directional speaker cable. Apparently the cable has different conductivity in one direction than the other. Think about that for a second. I know! Semi-conductor cables!
The placebo effect is strong, young padawan.
3dilettante
11-Dec-2006, 20:34
Guys, I don't think you've grasped the full import of this company's discovery.
It can send data through time!
If we buy half a billion of these things, put them into one huge cluster hooked up to a ~1920s radio transmitter, then reverse the voltage rails WE COULD WARN THE WORLD ABOUT HITLER!!!!!!!
Skrying
11-Dec-2006, 21:26
Guys, I don't think you've grasped the full import of this company's discovery.
It can send data through time!
If we buy half a billion of these things, put them into one huge cluster hooked up to a ~1920s radio transmitter, then reverse the voltage rails WE COULD WARN THE WORLD ABOUT HITLER!!!!!!!
Nah, the server called "Time" uses billions of these baby's.
SugarCoat
11-Dec-2006, 21:34
KillerNIC is a waste of money solely existing to suck in the gamer enthusiast so they can add another few l33t words on their PC spec signiatures. Sadly enough they will sell a lot solely because of this.
i dont think they'll sell 'a lot' exactly. the type of person this is going to interest is going to be dumb as a brick and surely heats their home by throwing banded bundles of currency straight into the furnace.
I'd personally feel better about buying a $1000 GPU setup then i do about putting down $250 for a network card because it has "killer" in its name.
FrgMstr
11-Dec-2006, 22:57
I thank you all for taking time to read it.
I thank you all for taking time to read it.
I could almost rep you for such a cool response. ;)
FrgMstr
11-Dec-2006, 23:12
Also wanted to say sorry for those of you that feel as though you did not get out of our review what you were expecting but we did make efforts to make sure that did not happen. Here is the intro that was used on the header of every page of that evaluation.
Gaming with the Killer NIC
You have seen the benchmarks and read the ping data. Now find out what the Killer NIC can do for you in real world gaming situations. No canned benchmarks, just feedback from gamers that have used the card.
We did not frame this as a review, but "gaming with the Killer NIC." We did also make sure to spell out that this article relied on only feedback from gamers. I apologize if we were not clear enough in our statements as to what the focus of the article was.
Glad you posted Kyle. I think many of us (me at least) were hoping for something more analytical like the maximum playable settings graphs you use in GPU benchmarks. Even if you can only simulate a net environ., at least it's something.
Gaming with the Killer NIC
You have seen the benchmarks and read the ping data. Now find out what the Killer NIC can do for you in real world gaming situations. No canned benchmarks, just feedback from gamers that have used the card. .
You see, that's the problem. The article did not tell us "what the Killer NIC can do for you in real world gaming situations". Your method simply didn't provide the promised result, just like the customer testimonies for Machina Dynamica's miracle pebbles don't tell us anything about what the damn things will do for us in real-world situations.
The quoted paragraph also implies that benchmarks and ping data ("canned benchmarks" whatever that is) does NOT permit valid conclusions on what Killer NIC can "do for you in real world gaming situations". Instead of collecting meaningful data, you're handing out awards based on the gut feelings of a bunch of guys, which is ridiculous. Did you even have full control over the test enviroment?
Also, what exactly did you base your conclusion that "the Killer NIC does exactly what it is advertised to do. It will lower your pings and very likely give you marginally better framerates in real world gaming scenarios"? On the guy who said that "his machine was ahead of what was on the server"?
I thank you all for taking time to read it.
You mislabeled it as a review. It should be predicated with a strong warning of "Paid Commercial Advertisement".
I, personally, do not criticise the article in itself, but I can't help but wonder about why anyone would see anything worth writing, for Kyle's staff, or reading, for the net denizens, in there.
I mean, we're talking about <5% differences here, a purely subjective take on this type of differences would only end with a non-event, less than +/- 5% in performances doesn't change the game experience in any ways, if at all, more news at 11, or it might also end with an inacurate reporting, because of a placebo effect or due to the fact that the tester "doesn't believe" in the product and therefore set his mind to find failures.
OT: that machina dynamica bunch must be seriously on crack. Or is the whole thing just a joke? Can't tell for sure, but it's mind-bending either way. Pebbles improving freq response and lowering the noise? Yeah, right... :roll:
Audiophiles are crazy for real, here's another example:
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35582
I love this one
http://www.av-outlet.com/en-us/dept_216.html
All cables are directional. One way sounds better than the other. If the cable has arrows, make sure that you the arrows point towards signal flow. If they do not have arrows, you are best able to tell one channel at a time by listening to vocal music with brightness to the voice. The direction that sounds less edgier is correct.
Yeah, that AC current has found it's way to a material with lower conductivity to the left but not the right. Uh huh.
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