View Full Version : Neverwinter Nights 2
The game has gone Au (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/neverwinternights2/news.html?sid=6159966) and is looking like it'll hit its October 31st release date in the US.
If you're not sure what all the fuss is about this game, I'll have a go at summing up what makes Neverwinter Nights and likely this sequel, special. Note that I'm not trying to say anything about the relative quality of any of the games or below so please don't start an argument about it as in, "OMG NWN was crap compared to Baldur's Gate 2."
In one sense, Neverwinter Nights is the modern equivalent of the old Black Isle developed PC RPGs like Baldur's Gate, Fallout & Icewind Dale. They have the same lengthy single player or co-op official campaigns. But in addition to that, NWN includes very powerful content editors. The huge and dedicated community has created an absolutely insane amount of single and multiplayer content since the release of the original in 2002. It has truly turned into one of those few games that is pretty much all you need. Its a little gaming metaverse in & of itself. And unlike a MMORPG or one of the many "sandbox RPGs" like Oblivion you are not tied to one world, one story, or even one development team's idea of how the game should play.
If single player is your thing, thats there. Loads of it both from official and 3rd party channels. But when you get into the multiplayer thats where the doors really open. Prefer tough hack and slash gameplay with a load of like minded cool people? Ok. Prefer a complicated role playing experience? No problem. Want to play with the same people every week through a guided multiplayer experience? Sure.
Of course, the above is a description of the first game but there are so many talented people chomping at the bit to make content for the new game, I have little doubt it'll be the same. Heck even myself and a few friends have been having consistent design meetings for our own original NWN2 persistent world.
So theres my bias little pitch for the NWN franchise. No I'm not saying that all other similar games are worthless, they all have their merits. But I think the powerful editing tools make NWN special. Anybody that likes solid single player RPGs should check it out. But people who are sick of all the BS time sinks and lame players in standard MMORPGs, I strongly advise giving the fan created persistent world servers a go. They don't care about your money, they just want everybody to have fun.
John Reynolds
18-Oct-2006, 01:29
You're 10 minutes late. :razz:
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showpost.php?p=854938&postcount=54
You're 10 minutes late. :razz:
Yeah actually typing a post out will do that :razz:
Anyway, I thought a new thread would be good because it annoys me how we keep old threads that say like "demo out in xx" or "GeorgeB says Duke Forever for sure in 98!" after a game gets released.
John Reynolds
18-Oct-2006, 01:43
Yeah actually typing a post out will do that
Bah! No excuse! :smile:
You wanna' pitch NWN2? Two names: Feargus Urquhart and Chris Sawyer. Don't know who those two are? Throw away your die and go burn your D&D books.
You wanna' pitch NWN2? Two names: Feargus Urquhart and Chris Sawyer. Don't know who those two are? Throw away your die and go burn your D&D books.
Well my Norrathian friend, I do believe you mean Josh Sawyer AKA JE Sawyer NWN2's current Lead Designer. He was also of course a major player in the making of the Baldur's Gate games, the Icewind Dale games, and the Fallout series. Not to mention Planescape: Torment.
Chris Sawyer on the other hand, is the brain behind the Rollercoaster Tycoon series :wink:
Feargus Urquhart, (besides possessing the best name in game design) was also one of the major forces behind all of Black Isle's back catalog. Other Black Isle developers working at Obsidian include Darren Monahan, Chris Avellone, Chris Jones, Chris Parker, and probably a few other Chris'. But no Chris Sawyers :razz:
Other Black Isle developers working at Obsidian include Darren Monahan, Chris Avellone, Chris Jones, Chris Parker, and probably a few other Chris'. But no Chris Sawyers :razz:Damn. John totally got my hopes up there. Was was all giddy with anticipation about the Quest to destroy (or supplant) an unknown evil (lurking in an abandoned depot) using the railroad-crossing glitch to disrupt the trade-route between Neverwinter and Waterdeep... :oops:
TTD still rocks, and I'm really looking forward to NWN2 too.
Barnabas
18-Oct-2006, 08:36
Dark Messiah of Might & Magic : 26th
Dawn of War - Dark Crusade : 27th
Neverwinter Nights 2 : 31st
I hate it when that happens!
Maddening isn't it? My list looks like this:
Oct 24 - FEAR Extraction Point
Oct 25 - Dark Messiah
Oct 31 - Neverwinter Nights 2
Oct 31 - Final Fantasy 12
Nov 07 - Gears of War
Nov 13 - Gothic 3
Jan XX - Jade Empire
Thats six games in 3 weeks. Of course some of these will have to be saved for that wonderful drought between February & September we've been getting in recent years :roll: Most likely Gothic 3 since it seems that one will require a bit of patching :razz:
I'm really looking forward to NWN2. My wife is also an avid player, has loved all the RPG series set in Faerun and other worlds so come 31st we're off to buy 2 copies and hopefully enjoy some coop fun. Though I haven't actually played the original for awhile and didn't go for the premium modules, I did play the original extensively online, hosted a large world on my own server for all my friends and even made some of my own worlds.
John Reynolds
18-Oct-2006, 13:21
Damn. Well, I should get points for remembering his last name and for spelling Feargus' correctly. :razz:
John Reynolds
18-Oct-2006, 15:22
Maddening isn't it? My list looks like this:
Oct 24 - FEAR Extraction Point
Oct 26 - Dark Messiah
Oct 31 - Neverwinter Nights 2
Oct 31 - Final Fantasy 12
Nov 07 - Gears of War
Nov 13 - Gothic 3
Jan XX - Jade Empire
Thats six games in less than 3 weeks. Of course some of these will have to be saved for that wonderful drought between February & September we've been getting in recent years
If I had a 360 I'd share that Gears of War entry, but my list also includes Star Trek: Legacy, Medieval 2: Total War, Warhammer: Mark of Chaos, and Splinter Cell: Double Agent (in addition to Dark Messiah, NWN2, Gothic 3, Jade Empire).
poopypoo
18-Oct-2006, 16:44
I'm really looking forward to NWN2. My wife is also an avid player, has loved all the RPG series set in Faerun and other worlds so come 31st we're off to buy 2 copies and hopefully enjoy some coop fun. Though I haven't actually played the original for awhile and didn't go for the premium modules, I did play the original extensively online, hosted a large world on my own server for all my friends and even made some of my own worlds.
That sounds sweet! I love my gal and she can whoop my ass at Civ 3, which is pretty painful, but I love her for it -- but one thing that limited NWN for me was finding a good person to coop with. The single player was really boring for me and the best modules I found were sometimes raced through, yelling about the loot, desperately trying to keep even it somewhat balanced so the fastest characters didn't get all the XP. It was sort of a mess. Maybe I should get people here to play with -- you guys seem like good RP dorks. ;) ;) ;)
Atleast here in Finland NWN2 has been delayed to 3th of November.
John Reynolds
21-Oct-2006, 00:56
Desslock is calling this the best D&D game since BG2, and the best game this team has done since Torment. Pretty high praise.
Maybe I should get people here to play with -- you guys seem like good RP dorks.
I'm kind of a moderate player myself. Sometimes I feel like a bit of role play, sometimes I just feel like killing something. So I'm not really the type for the truly grindy action or serious drama that goes on for hours and hours.
This is how my partners on the server feel more of less, so it's how we plan on it playing. It'll be fun for pretty much everybody except your true hard cores and not too picky about how you play. If you want to just go kill stuff, thats cool. If you want to RP all day that'll be viable too. I'll be sure invite all you spammers once we get a public beta up.
poopypoo
22-Oct-2006, 20:01
Yeah, believe me, it's not that I get really into character in a CRPG game. I'm not talking about doing a bunch of acting, I'm just talking about a) playing modules with some mystery or puzzles or anything interesting to them besides just monsters (i.e., give me a reason not to play a fighter or mage?) and b) not feeling like I am in constant competition with the party, but like I'm part of a party. A few people I know would rather play Lothar the Barbarian who steals all the treasure all the time than an actual co-op game. >_>;
My wife and I made a trip to EB and prepaid for 2 copies of NWN2 so we got the sheet giving us prepaid codes. I downloaded the toolset last night (2.2gig!) and had a look at it. One of the best features i've seen which immediately struck me is that the terrain outdoors is completely custom, as in the hills are raised/shrunk at your will, rather than only set tiles. The indoors are tiles of course but having outdoors as flowing hills and mountains means sooo much better scenes outdoors rather than ugly stepped hills with uniform ramps etc. This fact alone will make this miles ahead of the first.
There's also a horde of buildings and objects so expect to see very different looking locations. The amount of detail they've gone into creating hundreds of buildings, objects, terrain detail and textures is amazing. The only thing i'm worried about is the lack of monsters I can see in the toolkit. Probably on par with the first one but I expected more to be in the initial package. Once again we'll see many more monsters released with expansions, patches and premium modules (which was expected).
I haven't really gone into the scripting and trigger side of the toolset yet, so not sure if anything really new has been put in there.
John Reynolds
24-Oct-2006, 00:24
The couple that role plays together stays together. :razz:
My wife wouldn't touch these games with a 10' battle lance. She used to taunt out, "geeks!," from the other room of our apartment when I still played table top D&D in the early 90s.
John Reynolds
24-Oct-2006, 00:51
And for the delectation of the resident ravens, I present the NWN2 manual: ftp://ftp.download-center.com/international/NWN2/NWN2-GB.pdf
ZoinKs!
24-Oct-2006, 03:47
In case John Reynold's site is slow or down, you can also get it from nwvault (http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=NWN2Other.Detail&id=12). Manuals in English, Spanish, Italian, German, and French.
Anyone who can read that manual and not get excited about nwn2 needs to turn in their geek card. :razz:
Tim Murray
24-Oct-2006, 06:12
I guess I'll buy this before Gothic 3. Hopefully it'll be less buggy.
JR, I assume you're going to be running some multi campaigns? :D
John Reynolds
24-Oct-2006, 11:51
Gonna be down in Naples, Fl, from Nov 3rd to the 20th, but after that I'm cool with some MP after that.
My wife wouldn't touch these games with a 10' battle lance. She used to taunt out, "geeks!," from the other room of our apartment when I still played table top D&D in the early 90s.
My wife does that... despite the fact that she is playing tabletop with us!
Randell
25-Oct-2006, 23:25
My party of 3 is established. looks like inventory management is still rubbish as no mention of anything other than a grid what your bag contains.
Colourless
26-Oct-2006, 01:15
Definately going to get this, and play through the single player... but the GF is probably going to take the disk to play online when some decent servers arrive. She doesn't play single player games, but will play on completely empty online servers by herself to gain xp and level... *shrugs*
ZoinKs!
31-Oct-2006, 08:24
Ok, it's the 31st now. Who's got it and what's your first impressions?
Rodéric
31-Oct-2006, 08:39
I suppose it won't be released today in europe...
Gamestop claims they won't be getting my preorder until the 1st :roll:
Gamestop claims they won't be getting my preorder until the 1st :roll:
Thats what EB said when we paid for the preorder.. my wife's dropping by after work tonight though to abuse some staff until they give us our copies.
It looks like November 1st all around the US although you can buy and play a copy from Direct2Drive right now. No doubt its not the retailers' faults but Atari's for being a bit creative with what the release date was. It seems the legal "street date" is today its just that distribution is lagging behind for whatever reason. I was in one of our Gamestops with a buddy picking up a copy of FF12 and they didn't have them in store. He looked in the days last shipment for me and everything.
Tim Murray
01-Nov-2006, 01:23
Same here--EB Games said that they are not available until tomorrow. I, too, was with a buddy who was buying FFXII! :lol:
Any word on co-op? I'm little worried that it might be cut out.
Oh, I was hoping to see some nice commentaries here :)
Anyway, I decided to buy one today (assuming it's really out there as they said). Atari Taiwan claimed that the release day is the same as in the US.
epicstruggle
01-Nov-2006, 10:31
fck, im here in here in south africa so it will be a while before i get this game. Sigh. Will a kind soul write a review/opinion piece on how they like/dislike the game?
thanks
epic
Rodéric
01-Nov-2006, 13:16
fck, im here in here in south africa so it will be a while before i get this game. Sigh. Will a kind soul write a review/opinion piece on how they like/dislike the game?
thanks
epic
solo or multi ?
I think I'll try the solo mode this time around anyway though...
Any word on co-op? I'm little worried that it might be cut out.
The OC can be played multiplayer fine from what i've read. We're going to pick it up from the store in a few hours so once my wife and I have played a bit i'll tell you what coop is like.
My collectors edtn. got shipped today! Joy!
John Reynolds
01-Nov-2006, 16:00
Obsidian said they will have a patch ready for today, so I'd keep an eye out for it.
Just got words that NWN 2 will be available here only after 11/7... :(
But at least I will have the chance to read more reviews before buying it. ;)
Chalnoth
02-Nov-2006, 01:35
Just got it, installed it, and the patch is, well, taking forever to install. Argh, hurry up! I want to play!
John Reynolds
02-Nov-2006, 02:14
My Gogamer pre-order is still listed as "processing." Oh, well, leaving Friday morning for a 2-weeker so hopefully it's waiting for me in the kitchen when I get home.
I've got my copy as well, and yes the patch does take a long time. It got done in 12:21 on my 320gb 7200.10. Anyway I was just over at my buddies and his copy ran well enough on a 9800np 128mb. Low textures look like something from a PS2 game but raising them to high made the game look much much better and it was still playable at 1024x768. Everything else was set at what the game auto detected. I'll post my first impressions after I've played & played with the game for a while.
I'm disappointed with the 3d sound options. Only up to EAX3 is supported and no OpenAL. I guess we can kiss 3D audio goodbye with this game on Vista. Oh and joy of all joys, this is a TWIMTBP title. Get ready for a nice helping of shadow problems ATi users :roll:
Chalnoth
02-Nov-2006, 04:51
Well, got a bit of playtime in. Graphics are good. Performance is bad. The interface is going to take a bit of getting used to. Really loving the insane dwarf you meet shortly outside of the first town :)
ChrisRay
02-Nov-2006, 06:58
Hey Chalnoth is it true AA doesnt work at all?
Chris
Chalnoth
02-Nov-2006, 07:21
Hey Chalnoth is it true AA doesnt work at all?
Chris
Yes, that appears to be the case. Forcing doesn't work in the control panel, so clearly the game is using some sort of render to texture. I suspect HDR, but I don't see any options to disable it, and there are clear bloom effects.
John Reynolds
02-Nov-2006, 14:49
Hopefully you can get AA on a 8800 with the game.
So, is anyone playing this? I'm thinking of buying this tomorrow but it would be nice to see some opinions first.
Right. Is it any good, gameplay-wise? Please tell me it's not like the OC from NWN1 :-|
Hopefully you can get AA on a 8800 with the game.
May the 8800 bring AA to all future TWIMTBP games. Amen.
Well played it a bit with my wife and looks like multi OC is fine, quests and xp etc distributes ok and doesn't seem to matter who has the quest items and who talks to the NPCs which is good.
As far as graphics goes, looks like you need a decent PC to really up the details, though on average settings it still looks better than NWN1. And the outdoor landscape is much better now of course. Looks like there are shadowing issues (at least on our ATI cards). Raising the shadows from just blobs on the character to medium shadows makes them dissapear altogether. Haven't tried full environment shadows yet.
Overall i'm not too impressed with the graphics speed on my 2.8Ghz P4, 1g ram, x1600Pro 512Mb. Still need to play with settings a bit but it's definitely nowhere near a slideshow.
As far as gameplay goes, the UI seems rather dumbed down compared to nwn1. The quickslots don't seem to be directly changeable. Seems you can only drag weapons, spells, skills and feats onto the bar. In nwn1 you could rclick a slot then navigate to the action/spell you want. Can't do that anymore. Also I can't seem to have a sword AND shield on a slot, only the weapon. So when I switch back and forth between missile/melee I need to requip the shield. If thats the case then it's pretty stupid of the developers since that feature was in nwn1.
Guess I need to play with it some more and find out completely what I can and can't do compared to nwn1.
This game should be all about story really. Those guys (obsidian) are genius in dragging the players in the games deep and interesting story. Can't wait to play it...
Skrying
02-Nov-2006, 19:00
Sounds like they've built a solid base and the modding community will run with it in this game. I'm much more interested in what the community can do than what the developers did.
Can anyone tell me who is listed as the Art Director for it?
Tks.
Chalnoth
02-Nov-2006, 19:21
As I've played more, I've been having quite a bit more fun with the game. Spell effects just look bad ass, the characters are fun, and so far the story's decent. But I've only just begun.
My main gripes with the game so far are the UI and performance. The user interface could use a few tweaks here and there. It looks nice, but it's not always easy to get the information I want. Performance went up tremendously after I disabled, "softer shadows," whatever that means.
Sounds like they've built a solid base and the modding community will run with it in this game. I'm much more interested in what the community can do than what the developers did.
Thats one of the other problems as well. One of the biggest parts of the modding of NWN1 was persistent worlds. However with the new outdoor terrain engine, it doesn't use tiles. So it creates a "walkmesh" for terrain which must be downloaded by the client to play the world. Single player is fine, it can load each one as you go through the game.
However, online hosted worlds must load the entire mod into memory. A simple 16x16 map (max is 32x32) grid terrain with a couple of buildings and some hills ended up around 30Mb in data. Only half if that data is actually needed but theres no way currently to split it. So if hosters want to build similar worlds they did with NWN1, they are going to need servers with a dedicated minimum of 2-4Gb of RAM just to host 1 world. Some of the sizes just can't be done easily because of the restrictions. Obisidion themselves state no mod should be over 1Gb, which doesn't leave many areas to use.
I played it for a number of hours last night. The game starts a bit slow but once you gather a few seemingly permanent party members it picks up. Its fun watching them interact and such. Plus their complementary skills become more or less essential especially the rogue you acquire. None of this should be news to any of you though.
The game probably "feels" more like KOTOR than NWN1 as a few reviewers have said. I think the cutscenes and the encouragement to use the driving cam play a big part in this.
So far, its bloody easy. I steamroll through everything the game throws at me, only healing or resting when I feel its the right time to. I guess this is understandable though. If they built a game like this for people who knew what they we're doing a casual player would get frustrated really quickly. I guess I could turn the difficulty up a notch.
The controversial death system has already influenced my play style. I don't much care if my Rogue "dies" in combat (which happens easily and often if you don't pay attention to her) because I know my main character can just mop up in expertise mode if things get rough, which they never do. Plus "dead" characters still get all the experience.
Performance is inconsistent at best and bad at worst. The swamp maps you're thrown into early on give me FPS between 12 & 20 on my X1900XT 256mb at 1280x1024 and solid but far from maxed out detail settings. This seems like the kind of game where tanking the detail settings won't help all that much. Other outdoor maps with less detail run much faster, 40 - 60 fps. Vsync + triple buffering was enabled by default on my system. There is no in menu option I can find to turn it off. Indoors performance is ok, 30+ usually. If you're looking for a consistent 30+ FPS at max or near max detail you're going to need a high end dual card setup or next gen.
The spell effects are great, I agree with that. Even when simple things like bless explode out in a wave of sound and magical energy it brings a smirk to my face.
Performance is inconsistent at best and bad at worst. The swamp maps you're thrown into early on give me FPS between 12 & 20 on my X1900XT 256mb at 1280x1024 and solid but far from maxed out detail settings. This seems like the kind of game where tanking the detail settings won't help all that much. Other outdoor maps less detail run much faster, 40 - 60 fps. Indoors performance is ok, 30+ usually. If you're looking for a consistent 30+ FPS at max or near max detail you're going to need a high end dual card setup or next gen.
And thats what the community cannot understand... there's nothing visually which justifies the framerate and the requirement for such a highend setup. It's fairly short of Oblivion visually yet performs far worse.
Ahhh I'm sick of everybody comparing every aspect of every game to Oblivion.
Anyway, its disappointing but not at all unexpected. NWN1 was a poor performing game the day it was released and still is to this day. In fact, even that game performs "worse than Oblivion" in some situations. Playing the NWN1 module Darkness over Daggerfall recently, I easily got the FPS down to the teens on my high endish card.
I guess all we can really hope is that this game will scale better than its predecessor as hardware technology improves.
Can anyone tell me who is listed as the Art Director for it?
The manual credits Tramell "T.Ray" Issac as the Art Lead.
Ahhh I'm sick of everybody comparing every aspect of every game to Oblivion.
I haven't played NWN2 yet but does it make you look at a "LOADING" screen every time you open a door or enter a dungeon like Oblivion does? I think THAT'S the point people are often missing when comparing game performance.
Good point, but not applicable here. Yes it does give you a load every time.
John Reynolds
02-Nov-2006, 22:26
And Gogamer just cancelled my NWN2 pre-order I placed on 9/23 with no explanation.
Inane_Dork
02-Nov-2006, 22:30
And Gogamer just cancelled my NWN2 pre-order I placed on 9/23 with no explanation.I'm not too surprised, unfortunately. My preorder finally shipped today. The distribution of this game is screwed up.
Chalnoth
03-Nov-2006, 00:32
Anyway, its disappointing but not at all unexpected. NWN1 was a poor performing game the day it was released and still is to this day. In fact, even that game performs "worse than Oblivion" in some situations. Playing the NWN1 module Darkness over Daggerfall recently, I easily got the FPS down to the teens on my high endish card.
On nVidia cards NWN1 has no performance problems whatsoever (not in my experience, at least, and it certainly performs vastly better than Oblivion, and at higher resolutions). I have seen performance issues with ATI's cards, but it is an OpenGL game.
In NWN2, once I turned off "softer shadows" performance became acceptable in all situations I've run into so far (which isn't far).
John Reynolds
03-Nov-2006, 01:50
The lack of anti-aliasing is killing me. That and I can't decide what character I want to go with.
poopypoo
03-Nov-2006, 03:16
The lack of anti-aliasing is killing me. That and I can't decide what character I want to go with.
Lol, the obvious mistake was in not creating a "what charactrers shall I make for NWN2?" thread two weeks in advance ;) ;) ;)
John Reynolds
03-Nov-2006, 04:20
I'm not too 'up' on 3.5 rules so I went with a aasimar paladin.
ZoinKs!
03-Nov-2006, 05:14
I'm not too surprised, unfortunately. My preorder finally shipped today. The distribution of this game is screwed up.
Man, Atari always gets something wrong with nwn games. :razz:
The first nwn had some manuals printed with orange text. My copy of Shadows of Undrentide had the cd key printed on a small red piece of paper because they neglected to print it in the manual or on the cd holders. And something was similarly screwed up with HotU but I don't remember what.
There is a multisample switch in the ini, and the readme file suggests at some point to set antialiasing and anisotropic filtering to 0 in the game`s options in order to improve performance:| Now why the hell did they disable the stuff, i have no idea...
Chalnoth
03-Nov-2006, 10:04
The game exits immediately upon starting if I enable multisampling on my 7800 GT in the .ini. Here's hoping that it's only because the game is using an FP framebuffer.
The lack of anti-aliasing is killing me. That and I can't decide what character I want to go with.Priests are strong and versatile. If you select the right kind of priest, you can even on level one have enough offensive magic to "break" open those f'in locked containers we all love in our CRPGs ...
Speaking of which, can anyone talk about how containers and loot work in the game, compared to NWN1? I found it very faithful but very dumb (and deadly for pacing) that I was forced to sit through many rounds of "combat" for every freaking container in the game with a non-rogue party.
Well disabling shadows completely on my x1600Pro and my wifes 9800pro was the only way to get a decent framerate and enjoy the game. I'm running high textures now though which is nice but I miss the nwn1 shadowing so much.
And Obsidian have confirmed that there is no dual-wield slot capability so switching between bow and weapon/shield or 2 weapons means constantly going into inventory and putting the 2nd one on manually. :(
Cartoon Corpse
03-Nov-2006, 15:01
how's the camera on this title? is it nicely silent behind the shoulder with a little mwheel zoom like in Gothic3, or is still like in nwn1 where it's zooming all over the place?
It zooms around a bit depending on your angle and what terrain/objects your going through with the camera. There are 4 different camera settings but none of them seem to feel quite right. It's a big issue with a lot of players and apparently Obsidian are going to tweak the camera controls in the next patch or so.
Chalnoth
03-Nov-2006, 21:10
My main issue isn't so much the camera, but rather the movement controls. It's incredibly hard to move with the keyboard (turning is way too fast). I'd probably use the driving mode if it was feasible to use the keyboard to move around.
UI, AI and party control are all nightmares. Did the people who designed this game even play Infinity Engine games and NWN1? I kinda doubt it, and I'm positive very few of them ever played 3e D&D.
God what a mess.
digitalwanderer
03-Nov-2006, 21:23
No AA = dealbreaker anymore for me. :(
Chalnoth
03-Nov-2006, 21:33
I'm really getting into it now. The interface is a bit clunky, and it's rather annoying how the fighter and rogue in my party tend to like to leave me (a sorcerer) behind and go fight somebody far away. But I'm really enjoying the storyline, and the way that the game plays feels a whole lot more like Baldur's Gate or Planescape: Torment than the original NWN (and that's a good thing). Sure, it's rough around the edges, which makes getting into the game a bit, well, annoying. But now that I've put a few hours in, it's just getting more and more fun :)
Alistair
03-Nov-2006, 21:35
There's such a raft of good games around that you should choose a stable one to be going on with and wait for all the others to be patched...
The way that the right click context menus have an inbuilt delay before they pop up without any discernable reason is nice.
The way that the right click context menus have an inbuilt delay before they pop up without any discernable reason is nice.
You can adjust the delay in the options, I have mine on 0.37 and it's a nice balance between instant (which is for selecting objects/creatures) and delayed. There was no "select" in NWN1 which has confused a lot of players but in NWN2 you can.
There's such a raft of good games around that you should choose a stable one to be going on with and wait for all the others to be patched...
I'm not sure what you're getting at. Although this game has its problems, its quite stable. I don't think I've read a single crash or serious bug report about it.
Inane_Dork
03-Nov-2006, 23:24
http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3154916
1up's/EGM's NWN2 review got pulled. Anyone read it before the pull? As I recall, they gave it a 5 out of 10 and said that only hardcore D&D people who care about rules will like it (with the clear implication that such people are either very few or are so nerdy as to be misguided).
WTF...I load a savegame and from my party of 4, with the Ironfist dwarf, Neeshka and the elf druid chick I only have the druid chick left? The others have vanished, even though when entering Highcliff the sailors outside of the pub talk as if they were still around?!?!?!?
Nearly bought this today, but decided not to due to lack of AA. :frown:
Chalnoth
04-Nov-2006, 01:43
I don't understand why the lack of AA should convince anybody not to get this game (though I think I'll try to enable it again once I get home...we'll see). I mean, the storyline is really the primary impetus for playing a game like this in the first place. Sure, the aliasing will annoy you a bit, but you won't even notice after an hour or two of playing the game.
digitalwanderer
04-Nov-2006, 01:52
Sure, the aliasing will annoy you a bit, but you won't even notice after an hour or two of playing the game.
I won't make it thru an hour of game play, the aliasing will annoy me within minutes Chal. Ever since I first used a 9500 pro on Unreal 2 it's been all over for me, I needs me AA.
It also bugs me that I got Crossfire X1800 GTOs in and I can't do AA, there is just something wrong with that. :???:
Granted I'm an AA whore, but still....
As I recall, they gave it a 5 out of 10 and said that only hardcore D&D people who care about rules will like it (with the clear implication that such people are either very few or are so nerdy as to be misguided).
I can understand the score ... but they don't have a clue what they are talking about. ToEE was faithfull to the rules, the Neverwinter nights games take liberties left and right (usually for poor reasons IMO).
Chalnoth
04-Nov-2006, 02:09
I won't make it thru an hour of game play, the aliasing will annoy me within minutes Chal.
Of course it will annoy you right away. But if you can bear it for a few minutes, you'll stop noticing it. Anyway, I'm rather hoping they'll fix this. I just checked, and if I choose the nwn.ini option "UseHDRIfAvailable=0" the game won't crash upon enabling multisampling. But there still isn't any AA. This should be a really easy thing to fix, though. I think I'll make a post on the NWN2 forums.
Edit: By the way, here (http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=509715&forum=109) is the post I made. I hope you'll find it suitably demanding :)
Nothing breaks suspension of disbelief for me faster in a RPG as not being able to attack shit which isn't hostile to start with.
poopypoo
04-Nov-2006, 03:16
By the way, here (http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=509715&forum=109) is the post I made. I hope you'll find it suitably demanding :)
NIce post... :) one negative about TWIMTBP and the corresponding program from ATi (whatever the hell it's called) is that I immediately start to wonder in cases like this, do they just eliminate AA so this won't be another title in which only ATi cards have HDR+AA..? it's cynical i know, but if the devs can't give a good reason why the game lacks AA support then I have to wonder.
Chalnoth
04-Nov-2006, 04:05
NIce post... :) one negative about TWIMTBP and the corresponding program from ATi (whatever the hell it's called) is that I immediately start to wonder in cases like this, do they just eliminate AA so this won't be another title in which only ATi cards have HDR+AA..? it's cynical i know, but if the devs can't give a good reason why the game lacks AA support then I have to wonder.
Sounds like a very strange thing to me, as it'd be a great marketing message for nVidia's next-gen hardware, which does support AA with HDR.
Chalnoth
04-Nov-2006, 04:09
Back to the game itself: I'm really enjoying the NPC's that join your party. So far I've got 5, but since you can only take 3 with you, I've only dealt with the first three (since I'm playing a sorcerer, this fills out my party perfectly). The party NPC interaction really reminds me of Knights of the Old Republic 2, which was my favorite part of that game.
Anyway, I seriously think that with a patch fixing some of the UI and AI issues, I might consider this the best RPG of all time. Will definitely have to hold off that judgement until I've played it all the way through, though, and it's looking like that'll take a little while (which is a good thing!).
poopypoo
04-Nov-2006, 05:11
Sounds like a very strange thing to me, as it'd be a great marketing message for nVidia's next-gen hardware, which does support AA with HDR.
good point. they probably think further ahead than i do..?
woundingchaney
04-Nov-2006, 12:06
http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3154916
1up's/EGM's NWN2 review got pulled. Anyone read it before the pull? As I recall, they gave it a 5 out of 10 and said that only hardcore D&D people who care about rules will like it (with the clear implication that such people are either very few or are so nerdy as to be misguided).
Works for me as I am a hardcore D+D fanatic from years past.
Really enjoying the game, there are a few issues I would like to see patched but other than that a good buy for anyone interested in the series. Although my largest complaint would be the amount of time it takes to get into the meat of the storyline.
I love this game! It runs like crap though. :( That wannabe monk dwarf is hillarious. :)
Anyway, I seriously think that with a patch fixing some of the UI and AI issues, I might consider this the best RPG of all time.
The lack of polish can be fixed relatively easily (quickbar + TWF, tutorial and tips paying attention to remapped keys, etc etc ... all the basic stuff they considered "non essential").
Unless they fundamentally redesign combat it will never hold a candle to BG2 in my mind though. BG2 had even better level of detail as far as NPCs and scripting was concerned, but the combat though far flow flawless was way more challenging than NWN1/2 have ever been in single player. They need to change some fundamental things about how combat works in this game. Hell, if we are just going to ignore polish and combat completely to reward the best RPG of all time title Id go for Arcanum.
Better AI.
More casters.
True Death.
More status effects, and charm&dominate should be far nastier than they are now (charmed party members should try to use knockdown, non-lethal damage and status effects to slow you down if you attack their charmer and dominated party members should simply be taken over by AI and attack you all out).
A slider to set gamespeed in combat.
An autopause+target feature which activates the moment an area spell is actually cast, it's almost impossible to use area spells usefully at the moment ... especially things like entangle and grease.
etc etc.
Chalnoth
04-Nov-2006, 18:40
Well, I didn't say I was going to ignore it. Just that if the game is fixed, it could be the best. Now it's just good, I think.
anyone have problems with the game stuttering and pausing for a few seconds etc?
I checked memory usage and its only usin about 450MB physical and my hdd light aint goin crazy when it does?
Well, I didn't say I was going to ignore it. Just that if the game is fixed, it could be the best. Now it's just good, I think.
In the case of combat it's not a question of a couple of fixes IMO. They need to completely redesign it.
Can you honestly say that even if they fix the AI and make the UI get less in your way that the best NWN2 encounters can hold a candle to the ones in the Infinity Engine games? (Nevermind that modern 3D graphics apparently has to equal "very constrained world with long load times", Neverwinter feels oh so dead ... a "locked door" bonanza, hell they don't even bother making them actual entities anymore just to enhance that "on the rails" feeling).
Randell
04-Nov-2006, 21:29
UI improvements on way apparently - they will add 2 weapons etc to quickbar, plus not having to retype save names each time (really bugs me in CoH)
Chalnoth
04-Nov-2006, 21:52
In the case of combat it's not a question of a couple of fixes IMO. They need to completely redesign it.
I don't see why. Spellcasters in this game are worlds better than they ever were in previous titles. The only drawbacks that I can see are that the melee AI is a bit off, and there doesn't appear to be a way to give commands to multiple group members at the same time.
LocutusX
05-Nov-2006, 02:47
I've been playing NWN2 for about 4 hours now. I really like it, and think it will be able to eventually become the natural heir to the NWN franchise.
To address some things a few people have said:
- Obsidian Developers are on record, on their forum, as saying that AA will be added in a future patch
- The Quickbar problems (and probably other UI problems as well) are to be addressed in the next few patches. In particular, "Two-Weapons in 1 quickbar slot" will be added in patch #2.
And some personal observations from myself:
- On my rig, it's faster than recent user-made NWN1 modules which made extensive use of visually-enhancing "hak paks". For example, Darkness over Daggerford used a custom outdoor tileset (which actually somewhat resembles NWN2) plus lots of custom indoor visuals. It's SLOWER than NWN2. However, NWN2 still looks better than such "hakked-out" NWN1 modules.
- NWN2 feels like a game which was rushed out by a month or two, but ESSENTIALLY functionally complete. Absolutely no comparison to Gothic 3, which feels like it was rushed out by a flipping YEAR!!!
I won't touch Gothic 3 after attempting to play it 3 times... but I've already gotten soooo into NWN2.
That's it for me. Back to NWN2.
ChrisRay
05-Nov-2006, 06:18
I'll buy it as soon as its patched up for AA. I can wait a little while longer. Pretty busy right now anyway.
Inane_Dork
05-Nov-2006, 08:14
I think the game looks quite good. I was expecting quite a bit less graphical quality than I'm seeing from what a lot of reviewers have said.
Wow, what a disappointment.
I'm doing the Waterdeep Emissary quest line at the moment and I am getting seriously fed up with the game. I'm sick and tired of having to search every inch of a cave by turning the camera in every room for doors that are blocked from view. I wasted HOURS on searching for doors in the fucking Eyegouger Lair.
I'm sick of the horrible AI pathing in constricted areas that makes tactical fighting pretty much impossible. Add the fact that the game sometimes spawns huge ass monster groups behind your back and you get an uncontrollable chaos. By the way, is there a solo mode? I'd really like to use my rogue to her full potential.
I'm sick of the abysmal performance combined with sub-par (and I'm being nice here) graphics and constant loading times. The game doesn't look good, the performance sucks hardocre, the maps are TINY and the loading screens are seriously beginning to annoy me.
Immersiveness is pretty much non-exsistent. The game feels like a sequence of construction-kit-built mini-maps, which isn't suprising because that's what it is and somehow they haven't been able to camouflage this fact by making things interesting. It's a very bland game.
Combat is a mess, graphics suck, performance stinks, the story is nothing special and has severe pacing problems, the quests are blah. The character interaction is supposed to be a step forward from KotOR2 but frankly, I'm not seeing it, in fact, I'm suspecting it is a huge step backwards.
I'd be willing to forgive A LOT in terms of lackluster graphics, bad performance and bugs if the game had an immersive world, a good story and a solid exploration aspect. In contrast to Gothic 3 or even Bloodlines, NWN2 lacks all the saving graces that could make up for the overall crappiness. Not even the D&D system is able to salvage this wreck of a game.
Three days ago I'd have said that Obsidian couldn't do bad... I was wrong. No support for AA is really the LEAST of NWN2's problems.
Edit: Oh, and the crafting system is horrible, too, because there is zero UI support.
Ouch ...
Does the game still let you watch ten rounds of, err, "combat" against a chest that you can barely break open?
Yes, it does. It`s hardcore:)
I do like it, but it`s not as BG2(and if it`s not that, you can bet your balls it`s NOTHING like Torment) as some would have you believe. It`s like KOTOR, but since it`s made by Obsidian it seems to have lower production values, akin to KOTOR2. The fact that it runs like a limp dog carrying Oprah on its back doesn`t help either. Overall enjoyable, quite a bit more then Oblivion(but that one bored me to tears, so...), quite a bit less then a hypothetically patched-up Gothic3, hugely less then the classics of the genre.
Uh, oh... my experience with "party interaction" so far...
Not only are influence changes hard/impossible to predict (to the point where the whole thing becomes sorta irrelevant), the system is also bugged to the point of being broken. I'm missing two party NPCs in the tavern: the Paladin and the Bard. I picked them up, I had them both in my party but they don't show in the tavern, i.e. I can't talk to them and can't explore their storylines.
Instead, I got a NPC named "Bishop" standing around in the tavern WHO I HAVE NEVER SEEN BEFORE. He always refused to talk to me, that is, until he suddenly began to become part of some cutscenes! I had no idea what people were babbling about. Apparrenlty, I missed some side quest and I got stuck with an party NPC I never talked to and the game goes its merry way and I have no idea what the hell is going on.
I also had numerous party dialogues in which party members addressed party NPCs that weren't part of the party.
I have to admit that I've never been much of a fan of the BG2/IWD engine combat system. IMO the turn based D&D combat in Temple of Elemental Evil has been the best implementation of D&D combat so far. But at least combat in BG2 worked well. The only challenge wrt combat in NWN2 comes from the broken party member behaviour. That's prolly why party members can't really die and why you can rest pretty much everywhere - if it didn't work that way, the game would be unplayable, thanks to the broken combat.
By the way, the KotOR2 comparison is flawed. Not only does KotOR2 run and look better than NWN2, despite the fact that it is ancient technology, it also has the better storyline and the frigging party interaction works and is less obscure than in NWN2. Had Obsidian been given another month or two to actually finish KotOR2, the game would have been one of the greatest CRPGs ever made. The best thing that can be said about NWN2 is that it runs stable. Didn't have even a single crash, even alt-tab works like a charm.
Chalnoth
05-Nov-2006, 17:52
Uh, oh... my experience with "party interaction" so far...
Not only are influencechanges hard/impossible to predict (to the point where the whole thing becomes sorta irrelevant), the system is also bugged to the point of being broken. I'm missing two party NPCs in the tavern: the Paladin and the Bard. I picked them up, I had them both in my party but they don't show in the tavern, i.e. I can't talk to them and can't explore their storylines.
If you can get them in your party, then you can right click on them and select, "talk to."
I also had numerous party dialogues in which party members addressed party NPCs that weren't part of the party.
Wow, that's odd. Haven't seen that before. As for Bishop, I thought he showed up as a guide for seeking out the Githyanki.
By the way, the KotOR2 comparison is flawed. Not only does KotOR2 run and look better than NWN2,
Okay, there is no friggin' way that KotOR2 looks better than NWN2.
LocutusX
05-Nov-2006, 18:05
Okay, there is no friggin' way that KotOR2 looks better than NWN2.
It's sad, really - I guess this is the legacy of the hugely-successful NWN on the "gaming community".
It's made people so biased against NWN2, that they make all sorts of ridiculous comments.
And there's absolutely no way that G3 can be "patched up" to be better than NWN2. If anything, Piranha-Bytes needs to be shut down, for the good of all gamers. ;)
By the way, is there a solo mode? I'd really like to use my rogue to her full potential.Keep right click pressed without targeting someone/thing and you can do broadcast commands, one of them tells them all to stay put.
I had such high hopes for this game :( Even ignoring the bugs, UI and AI the basic design offends me. Id have preferred a slightly updated NWN1 engine with 3.5 rules over this, the graphics are just not worth the huge restrictions they place on world design. It's back to lamenting the loss of Jefferson and praying for someone to do a D&D game right ... again.
I disagree about G3, I think it will best NWN2 once it`s patched up, and quite easily. And yes, KOTOR2 was better in many respects(not graphics, mind you).
I`m not against NWN2, as I find it to be enjoyable...but it`s overly simplified in many aspects that matter. It`s made for the stupid generation of gamers that complain about the incredible complexity of FEAR`s storyline for example...it`s soulless to a great extent. BG2 for example had you in there, it got you, you wanted to find Irenicus, that Witch of Umar Hills quest was actually intriguing, scary at times, for example. You had to be smart about some stuff, you had to think...hell you even had to write down some things!
Here, it`s all so obvious that it`s yucky:be an asshole and elanee will hate you, be a good boy and the paladin wil be your mate etc. And it`s not even gray, it`s quite drawn out. I don`t know how many remember that Jaheira in BG wanted you to stick to a neutral stance, not to extremes...that was interesting, different, it was harder to please her.
To end a long rant, I know that what I want is not quite doable...hell, Oblivion is considered to be a great friggin RPG and it`s crap IMHO, but I can still dream about at least a BG remake, or a Torment remake...or a Fallout not by Bethesda.
Is it possible to turn your party member's alignments around in NWN2 like in say Kotor2 or Arcanum?
Chalnoth
05-Nov-2006, 22:58
Is it possible to turn your party member's alignments around in NWN2 like in say Kotor2 or Arcanum?
Doesn't look like it. I'm definitely going to have to play through another time to see what I can do to affect my party members, though. There are side quests that allow party members to pursue alternate classes, but I haven't completed any yet...and I'm so far along that it wouldn't make any real difference, so I'll just try to do it later, as I'm mostly focusing on finishing the main storyline right now.
As for the story, I like it. It reminds me a lot of the original Baldur's Gate, where you don't know who your enemy is until near the end of the game. Heck, I think I'm nearing the end of the game, and I'm still not absolutely certain what's going on here. I like that...adds a bit of mystery :)
Randell
05-Nov-2006, 23:08
Doesn't look like it.
yes you can - ie if good and start slitting throats you move towards evil.
yes you can - ie if good and start slitting throats you move towards evil.
I meant that of the other party members, not that of your main character.
Chalnoth
05-Nov-2006, 23:23
yes you can - ie if good and start slitting throats you move towards evil.
Well, you do, I knew that. But I'm not sure that you can affect the alignment of your companions.
So now that I'm stuck with that story-breaking bug regarding Bishop, I started over again... this time as an evil monk. I've only gotten to Neverwinter so far but I've already run into problems. Monks must remain lawful (good/evil/neutral). The problem is that "evil" choices in quests often inevitably result in alignment adjustments towards chaos. For example, the quest to rescue Juni's husband. If you pick the evil option when talking to Willem, you are presented three choices when trying to complete the quest by talking to Juni: all three result in an aligment shift towards chaos. IIRC, there was at least one other quest that behaved similary. If this trend continues, it might break my character (can't gain levels as monk unless lawful). At this point, I'm not sure if I should invest more time into a character that might end up broken.
Another problem is that Obsidian hasn't been consistent with the alignment changes. Sometimes, behaviour (e.g. using diplomacy for more money) results in an alignment shift towards evil, in other quests doing the very same thing gets you points towards chaos (which I must avoid). That makes things really frustrating, I basically have to go through all the quests via save/reload so I don't fuck up my char.
Being evil, I pissed off that treehugger bitch early on, so I didn't even get the Circle (or whatever) quest line. The wolf in Neverwinter isn't there either. I'm wondering if that will also result in the "broken Bishop" fux0red storyline. I'm not sure if I want to play through all the Neverwinter quests again just to find out that I'm yet again screwed and that I'll have to start over a third time in order to get a working story line.
Where do you usually meet Bishop? He looks like a Ranger.
Spoilers follow...
I think you have it mistaken L233. Bishop is introduced in the sunken flagon after the gith kidnap Shandra. The fact that he was sitting there in the bar beforehand just means that he was a sunken flagon barfly or was there because of this "debt" he owed to Duncan. So no bug, just perhaps an introduction that could have been smoother.
If that's the case then we're looking at some truly shitty writing. I'm still not convinced, it certainly feels like something is missing. The guy jumps into the storyline with no introduction whatsoever and hogs up a place in your party and the conversations imply that the other NPCs know him and know about him. Either that or I really misunderstood something.
Anyway, I tried to replicate that odd behavour I got the first time (Elanee adds another location north of Neverwinter to your world map after killing the enraged bear in the Maiden's Glade) but no success, despite identical class/aligment choice and I really kissed her ass this time around and tried every imaginable conversation option combo. I'm not sure if I want to play all the way to Neverwinter again just to see if the Wolf is there (with the evil monk I got attacked by Bladelings instead at the same spot).
Another odd thing I noticed... I've been running through the initial phases of the game four times now and after the first time I never got the option to ask the bandits to join the Fort Locke guards again, they always attacked on sight. No idea what's going on there.
Edit: Looks like I'm not the only one who is confused (http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=511087&forum=110&highlight=Bishop). So probably not a bug, just an idiotic and shoddily written part of the story.
Chalnoth
06-Nov-2006, 13:06
Heh, I'd recommend you just try to play through the game, L233. This game is long, and it sounds like you've yet to get past the beginning of it. It is impossible to do everything in any one playthrough anyway, so I'd just get it over with.
As for me, though, I decided to complete Khelgar's side quest. Looks like the point is just to travel to the "dwarven scouts" area once it pops up, as well as speak to Khelgar about basically everything once you get your influence with him up high enough.
Bleh, J.E. Sawyer just confirmed that Casavir and Elanee are the only romance options... the two blandest characters in the game. So better start sucking up to the tree-hugging hippie. Neeshka seems to have no purpose after the Lendon subplot. And replay value flies right out the window. Apparently, stuff got cut... they initially promised several romance options for both, male and female characters. Really sad, because IMO the characters are the most enjoyable part of the game (the combat sure as hell isn't). NWN2 is just another butchered/half-finished Obsidian RPG :mad:
Well ... at least that's community fixable. The lousy combat is on their plate and I'm afraid it won't get fixed (who is going to pay for it? they ain't bioware).
L233 you've been playing this game for probably 20 hours or so and have made a good half a dozen posts here about it and have said nothing positive. So, either you enjoy the game on the whole (you continue to play it after all) but have an advanced case of lazy cynicism. A common internet condition that makes one rattle on about how lame something is without ever acknowledging that there might be some goodness to it. Or you really hate NWN2 and should stop playing. I suspect it is the former but its quite hard to tell.
Regarding the Bishop issue, I haven't personally come across anybody having an issue with it at all much less to the degree you have. Restarting and all. And thats neither on my internet travels or in talking to other members of my local chapter of geekness. The introduction was a bit abrupt but it could have been fixed with less than a dozen lines in that scene. So, i'd call it a single mistake or oversight rather than the blanket "shitty writing".
Anyhow, I really believe that you're only getting one side of your viewpoint across and it would be easier for me and I'm sure the rest of us to respect your negative opinions about the game if that wasn't all we we're hearing from you.
What's your point? Are you telling me that the crappy performance, the broken combat and all the anti-immersive crap (tiny wee maps, loading screens every few steps, houses that are 10x bigger on the inside than than appear to be from the outside including batshit insane layouts, "map hopping" instead of travel, cities that feel dead) will suddenly disappear when you're more than 20 hours into the game?
The thing is, I have been really looking forward to this game, more so than to Gothic 3 (which also fell short of my expectations, but it does have some redeeming strengths). It's not like I started out hating the game like I do with the crap Bethesda shits out every couple of years. I'm actually quite a fanboi of Obsidian and the people involved. So it's mainly disappointment speaking and not some general inclination towards negativity. I'm only cynical when it comes to MMORPGs...
What's your point?
I'll speak plainly then. I wasn't arguing with your viewpoints about the game at all. My point was if you want people to give a damn about what your typing and not turn off don't pull the typical ultra negative internet attitude like you're doing. If you can't do that, I can write you off as just another lazy cynic which is fine with me. Also, I meant 20 hours was a long time not a short time.
Anyway, Tycho from Penny Arcade has weighed in on the 1UP review pull and the game itself (blog post (http://www.penny-arcade.com/2006/11/06#1162802520) / comic (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/11/06)).
Richteralan
07-Nov-2006, 01:50
The game looks good,
and I respect D&D fans:lol:
But the roll dice combat system thing doesn't really work for me. It is too slow and uninteresting. Most often there are times I see my character making an attack and paused to wait for next dice roll.:lol: And magic can go through walls to hit you:lol:
I'll play this game when I really bored. But I would think AD&D rules need to be improved. I like the complexity of the numbers but if AD&D rules are exclusively numbers then why we need fancy graphics and real-time control:lol:
Sorry if I offended anyone:lol:
I'll speak plainly then. I wasn't arguing with your viewpoints about the game at all. My point was if you want people to give a damn about what your typing and not turn off don't pull the typical ultra negative internet attitude like you're doing.
Look, I played the game for quite some time, I ended up disappointed, I vented off some steam. No need to share your insights into internet forum culture with me.
Anyway, Tycho from Penny Arcade has weighed in on the 1UP review pull and the game itself (blog post (http://www.penny-arcade.com/2006/11/06#1162802520) / comic (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/11/06)).
Who cares what that Blizzard shill has to say? Anyway, my issues with the game have nothing to do with the D&D system or the fact that there's a lot of number crunching going on. I have a strong preference of turn-based, tactical combat (the way D&D is supposed to be played) and this real-time round based stuff is the closest thing we're likely to get in any game nowadays.
No need to share your insights into internet forum culture with me.
All my initial post was for was to ask you to think more or express your thoughts about the game better rather than just venting off the negative stuff. I know you're not stupid or a total cynic and wanted to promote a more interesting discussion of which you could no doubt play a role.
Who cares what that Blizzard shill has to say? ...
The fact that I posted that has nothing to do with the interaction between the two of us. I just thought people would want to see it.
Randell
07-Nov-2006, 09:01
The issues about the style of play are the same as those with NWN. If you didn't like the semi-turn based dice roll combat of NWN, you were never going to like NWN2. Personally when playing a RPG I prefer dice roll based, augmented by player use of feats/power attacks or spells.
As I always maintained about NWN - this game is a better MP with a stable group of reliable friends and I much prefer this type of game to a MMORPG.
I appreciate the "extreme" criticism because
1)I'd like to believe that all the moderately positive things one would say to make such a piece more "balanced" are either known or implied anyway. I know there are towns with NPCs and some quests and some dialogue, and that you have an inventory and can beat stuff up. That doesn't need to be repeated if it isn't remarkably well done.
2)The points can still be valid, no matter how "unbalanced" the criticism is. I need this info, along with the positive views, to piece together the greater puzzle of how likely will this fit my profile.
Choice of "harsh" words isn't something that should negate the opinion. It's so easily filtered anyway (just replace all occurances of "steaming pile of poo" with "bad product" etc).
Basically I think NWN 1 OC was shit. So if I see a criticism applied to NWN2 that resonates with my NWN1 experience, that's good enough info to me. OTOH I'm much less likely to believe some (hypothetical) review with an introduction along the lines of "NWN 1 OC was the most amazing game experience ever, but now NWN2 does it even better".
And what I make of all this hoopla is that I won't be buying NWN2 anytime soon.
The issues about the style of play are the same as those with NWN. If you didn't like the semi-turn based dice roll combat of NWN, you were never going to like NWN2.There are several D&D-based CRPGs that are much better than NWN1 OC. If you stray away from D&D, but still stay turn-based, the selection widens even more.
It's not a systemic problem with turn-based or even D&D-based things, but rather that NWN1 OC was at the bottom of the barrel, didn't make sense, wasn't much fun, and was outdone by just about every other game in its genre.
Chalnoth
07-Nov-2006, 17:25
The original campaign for NWN2 is vastly better than the one for the first NWN. It's not even a contest here. The problems with NWN2 more lie on the side of polish: UI issues, party AI issues, and the like. There are also a couple of poorly-designed areas where it can be hard to find what you're looking for, but I've only run into this issue twice so far (and I'm almost done with the game). The campaign is also very, very long, and that might not settle so well with some people, because it just takes a long time to figure out what the hell is going on (though I really like it that way, I can see why some wouldn't).
The structure and storyline of the OC is better than NWN1 ... but on the other hand the encounters are even worse. Of course the NWN2 encounters have been designed and balanced around a broken interface and as such can't help but be broken themselves (just did the Moire fight, which was a bad joke of a boss fight).
Making combat good in this game is going to be a huge task ... which will in the end probably fall to the community. IF the developers go the distance and fix the game, which they will probably have to pay for out of their own pockets. I have my reservations about that, I just don't see NWN1 level support in the future of NWN2. They ain't Bioware.
Randell
07-Nov-2006, 19:46
IBasically I think NWN 1 OC was shit. So if I see a criticism applied to NWN2 that resonates with my NWN1 experience, that's good enough info to me. OTOH I'm much less likely to believe some (hypothetical) review with an introduction along the lines of "NWN 1 OC was the most amazing game experience ever, but now NWN2 does it even better".
And what I make of all this hoopla is that I won't be buying NWN2 anytime soon.
There are several D&D-based CRPGs that are much better than NWN1 OC. If you stray away from D&D, but still stay turn-based, the selection widens even more.
It's not a systemic problem with turn-based or even D&D-based things, but rather that NWN1 OC was at the bottom of the barrel, didn't make sense, wasn't much fun, and was outdone by just about every other game in its genre.
See, I played many community modules, Bioware premium modules and enjoyed Shadows/Hordes as well. The OC was the worst thing about NWN.
Are people complaining only about the OC or the gameplay style? Chalnoth is right - the NWN2 story so far and party interaction is times better than NWN OC. The UI and control flexibility are worse and have learnt no lessons from say WoW, especially for MP.
The original campaign for NWN2 is vastly better than the one for the first NWN. It's not even a contest here.
I agree but then again, I always thought that NWN1 sucked (I'd have rated it 5/10). Note then I'm not interested in any DM mode stuff and neither am I huge on community mods, I play these games as single player CRPGs.
The campaign in NWN2 turns out to be a bit better than I initially tought, now that I'm a bit further down the story line. It still doesn't really blow me away or anything.
There's a funny PC conversation. At one point you walk Shandra through what has happened so far and she remarks: "This is the most bizarre series of events I've ever heard". And Grobnar, the batshit insane Gnome bard, answers: "No me!". I think that kinda summed it up pretty well.
I guess I'm just not much of a fan of these really huge stories about Demon Kings, complex (and thus unconvincing) conspiracies, powerful doomsday magic and over-the-top characters. In that regard, the Gothic games are really refreshing because you're interacting with regular mortals who have plausible goals and motivations - most of the time. This isn't really a problem with NWN2... it's been a common theme with all (A)D&D based CRPGs since BG1.
It's probably one of the reasons why I always loved the Fallout games so much. Ultimately, I find it much more satisfying to influence the fate of the Necropolis ghouls or the crime families of New Reno than to kill DemiGod_From_Hell_05 in Epic_As_Fuck_Battle_09 in order to Save_the_World_07.
The problems with NWN2 more lie on the side of polish: UI issues, party AI issues, and the like. There are also a couple of poorly-designed areas where it can be hard to find what you're looking for, but I've only run into this issue twice so far (and I'm almost done with the game).
If that lack of polish completely fucks up an important aspect of the game - combat - then it's a major issue. As MfA and I have already noted, the battles and other aspects of the system (rest and death mechanics) seem to be balanced around the issues with the combat system. That's why I am not convinced that "polishing" the game some more will fix combat.
Maybe they should have taken a bit more freedom with the D&D ruleset. With monsters and AI PCs zooming all over the place, the tumble and attack of opportunity rules really make things much worse. I tried to toy around with the AI behaviour options but I don't think it can be fixed that way.
With ranged attack monsters running away to keep their distance, AI PCs chasing them or deciding to disengage so they can protect you, AI PCs aggroing more monsters and so on it all becomes just one huge mess - a deadly mess because attacks of opportunity. Yes, combat can be paused but managing battles often becomes frustrating micromanagement simply because you're trying to make your guys do what you want them to do instead of letting them get themselves killed.
About things being hard to find... that one could be fixed easily. The main issues are doors. Finding the entrace to the 2nd level of Eyegougers Lair drove me insane. Turns out it was a brown door in a brown cave wall located down a short flight of stairs in a corner of a room. Not even object highlighting was much of a help. Finding the informant and Moira in that mansion was another instance which made me almost click the "uninstall" icon. All this "search the door" crap can easily be solved by marking all doors on the minimap.
Chalnoth
08-Nov-2006, 03:59
You realize you can highlight game objects like doors with the "Z" key, right?
You realize you can highlight game objects like doors with the "Z" key, right?
Yes, that's why I wrote that "not even object highlighting was much of a help". A greenish highlight in a green wall isn't that apparent and if the camera angle is wrong it's still very hard to see. "Hunt the door" just isn't much fun, especially when you have to constanly turn the camera while lagging around with 15 FPS.
Chalnoth
08-Nov-2006, 07:18
Yes, that's why I wrote that "not even object highlighting was much of a help". A greenish highlight in a green wall isn't that apparent and if the camera angle is wrong it's still very hard to see. "Hunt the door" just isn't much fun, especially when you have to constanly turn the camera while lagging around with 15 FPS.
Well, I didn't have much issue in those caves. I usually just tilt the camera so I'm looking straight down when I want to look around. I also don't have framerate issues indoors (except with the occasional web spell, as well as a couple of others). A major aid here was turning off "softer shadows."
poopypoo
08-Nov-2006, 09:12
I agree but then again, I always thought that NWN1 sucked (I'd have rated it 5/10). Note then I'm not interested in any DM mode stuff and neither am I huge on community mods, I play these games as single player CRPGs.
Ahh, well that sorta explains it then. NWN OC did suck, in fact, it was one of the worst PC RPGs to be released in years. Similarly, every one of these AD&D-son-of-SSI games has, IMO, been the worst RPGs to be released, year after year (though the first one was pretty good -- was that Pool of Radiance? I sorta forget now). But what made NWN shine was the community support (as usual). I still laugh every time I think of someone in another thread here having challenged my assertion that the community can mod a game better than the original designers. XD they aren't just capable of it -- they've pretty much done it with every single game ever (some notable exceptions, mostly from the pre-mods-are-common era)! So, if you're playing NWN without mods, you are seriously missing the boat. If you don't want to change, no problem for me, but -- honestly -- it sounds like you're completely missing out on the best computer RPGs this world has ever had to offer.
edit: much love, of course, to game designers and their artists -- without their toolsets, mods wouldn't be possible! or at least not so common!
New patch was released yesterday but it was fast pulled back because users were experiencing crashes. Maybe we see the patch released again today.
1.2 will only be a hotfix, the "major" stuff will have to wait for the one after that.
Looks like AA, & dual-wielding quick slots will be in 1.03 which the guys "hope to get out before Thanksgiving". Probably a bunch of other stuff too. What I really want to know is where did HDR go? We know for a fact that it was done and working months before release.
See, I played many community modules, Bioware premium modules and enjoyed Shadows/Hordes as well. The OC was the worst thing about NWN.The thing is that NWN got extremely positive reviews and basically, out of the box, didn't deserve them. I had to find that out myself, which now makes me weary of similar glossing-over of issues "because with the editor you could some day play something awesome!". NWN2 has the same potential for a really lame excuse for a really inflated review score.
I didn't play community mods. I have Undrentide and Underdark though, and yeah, that feels much better. I mentioned the suckage of specifically the OC for a reason ;)
Are people complaining only about the OC or the gameplay style? Chalnoth is right - the NWN2 story so far and party interaction is times better than NWN OC. The UI and control flexibility are worse and have learnt no lessons from say WoW, especially for MP.Well thanks for pointing that out.
Me I don't mind a good story, I appreciate if it's there, but no big deal if not. What I do like in my games though is good atmosphere, especially music can sometimes make or break it for me.
And solid mechanics I value highly.
If you still meant the NWN1 OC, the basic gameplay is fine, but the pacing is shit, the world feels like a trailer park with a brass section, and it's just totally meaningless (levelled loot, no consequential choices). About the NWN2 OC I dare not speak, because I haven't seen it :)
Ugh. I really wish there was a demo. It would make things much easier.
Randell
08-Nov-2006, 12:46
re: performance
On a 6800GT at 1280x1024, with bloom and shadows off I'm getting 20-50 fps. So the settings can be amended to improve fps on older cards.
Is anybody using xfire as a messenger during the game? Apparently it really interferes with NWN2 performance and with a modified ini you can fix it (or turn xfire off).
re: Not using community mods - Bioware definetly pushed the fact the OC was really only part of the NWN experience and the game would shine from community support. Not using Hak-paks or community modules is almost deliberatley wasting your money. Its a free rpg every time and I gamed with friends NWN modules for 4-5 years. From that viewpoint I've viewed it as the best, cheapest MP RPG gaming you can get. WoW Oblivion etc all have their good and bad points as MP and SP games, but I prefer NWN to MMORPG's.
I heard that in NWN2's co-op every player must be in the same area of the game. Meaning, when entering a town, we just can't run around like we used to? PLAAH.
poopypoo
08-Nov-2006, 13:29
I heard that in NWN2's co-op every player must be in the same area of the game. Meaning, when entering a town, we just can't run around like we used to? PLAAH.
Man, the more I'm hearing about NWN2 MP, the more I'm hating it. :(
I havent been this engrossed since Morrowind hit me square on the jaw. I love it.
I've made a photo album here (http://img3237.imagevenue.com/nwn2_album/index.htm).
All images are from Act 1 and 2, 1920x1200 large. Shadows are low or off. A lot are from cutscenes and dialogs, so spoilers are everywhere.
Man, the more I'm hearing about NWN2 MP, the more I'm hating it. :(
Yeah. Another limitation is that other party members can't perform actions when one of the players is in conversation. But afaik, these aren't engine's limitations but something coded into the official campaign.
Gothic 3 sounds like the better bet.
;)
Randell
08-Nov-2006, 21:03
Yeah. Another limitation is that other party members can't perform actions when one of the players is in conversation. But afaik, these aren't engine's limitations but something coded into the official campaign.
when talking to a merchant, once you are in the store, your party members can carry on as normal, and use teh same store etc
the party all moving to same area at once is just the OC as well, not all modules will be that way.
Has anybody found any 8800 reviews that include this game or Gothic 3?
Alistair
08-Nov-2006, 23:04
Saw a post on the Jowood forum where a guys said his 8800 made a huge difference to G3. I think with a decent cpu you're gpu limited most of the time... except for the stutters when loading new terrain etc. No doubt your 8800 will help with one aspect but not the other...
poopypoo
09-Nov-2006, 01:14
Yeah. Another limitation is that other party members can't perform actions when one of the players is in conversation. But afaik, these aren't engine's limitations but something coded into the official campaign.
Ahh, ok... I'm not worried about that, then; I'm only worried about performance and features in user-created MP.
Gothic 3 sounds like the better bet.
;)
Ha! Well, I'll be too nerdy for your smiley just once more and remind everyone that that's undoubtedly true for an single player RPG experience. I honestly don't really even think of NWN and Gothic as in the same genre... ^^;
Chalnoth
09-Nov-2006, 01:58
I might agree with you for NWN1, poopypoo. But NWN2 has, I think, a great single-player campaign. If anything, the issues that the game has now will detract as much, if not more, from multi-player play.
Randell
09-Nov-2006, 11:51
agreed the issues are annoying for MP, more so than NWN1. Hopefully user content will improve it again.
Another mp annoyance is no party loot feature, not even a dice roll, when arguing over serious magic items. At least NWN had a dice roll command.
I'm in act 3 now and have recruited all available allies... I really loved the idea of having your own keep you can upgrade etc. but the fun was kinda killed off by the same problems that make the party interaction system a hate/love kind of deal.
Like party interaction, the keep system is too intransparent. You're never told how your actions affect things before the fact. There are a number of scripted restrictions that are not communicated and so on. Like with party interaction, you're basically stumbling in the dark most of the time. And to top it off, you can impact the keep aspect of the game even before you know you'll eventually get a keep. IMO games should be about informed decisions, not about guesswork.
My frustration in particular stems from the invisible caps that are in place. It seems that you can send your men on recruiting assigments only a fixed number of times. It's the first thing I did, back in Act II before I had that Light chick as a sergeant and now that I have her, I can't use her for recruiting more men.
I'm now stuck at 222 men, even dropping recruitment standards all the way down doesn't help. By the way, the game never tells you what (if any) impact it has when you drop the recruitment standards. If I had done some other stuff first and recruited later, I could have easily gotten 500-700 men. The problem is that I did the intuitive thing (first build up numbers, then train them) and I got screwed because the game doesn't provide any information on caps and restrictions.
Weapon and armor upgrades for your militia work equally obscure. You need to find ore deposits in order to upgrade the equipment. Problem is that a lot of ore deposits can only be found in Act I, after that the locations are taken off the map. So unless you knew right from the start that you have to click on ore deposits before you even knew that you'd eventually need them, you'll lose out.
Even worse is something that might or might not be a scripting bug. I'm not sure about that because it's entirely possible that it's working as intended but the game simply doesn't tell you. Anyway, after I turned in the 3 ore desposits from the Ironfist/Fire Giant quest, the miner informed me that he wants to leave. I convinced him to stay but apparently, I don't get the ore from the deposits I told him to mine one conversation earlier. So I just lost 3 of the 6 available ore deposits in in Act III and my soldiers will be stuck with sub-par equipment.
Sometimes special assigments pop up but I have yet to figure out if they actually result in anything tangible. Sending your soldiers to kill a bandit leader or to fight bugbears or whatever doesn't seem to have the slightest impact on anything. Or did I miss something?
So while I think that the keep idea is really, really cool and could potentially add a lot to the game (I have yet to see where the whole thing is going, though) I found the experience to be ultimately disappointing. After investing hours into and and recruiting all the sergeants, raising money to upgrade my keep, managing the keep and so on I am stuck with a sub-par result because the game didn't give me the neccessary information and the system is just too quirky. It's doing a horrible job at rewarding effort and time investment.
What Obsidian has done with party interaction may be even more tragic. I, for one, will prolly end up simply cheating up my influence with the party members because I cannot be arsed into going through the game again, trying to unlock all the stories. I played four times through KotOR 2 just for that but in KotOR 2, all recruitable NPCs had a meaningful story to tell, while I'm not even sure that's the case in NWN2. Influence doesn't seem to matter with Neeska, is wasted on Shandra, Bishop and Sand don't seem to have more to say than a few blurbs, same with the Gnome Bard.
The Light Side / Dark Side dichotomy in Star Wars made party interaction a lot more predictable. It's a cool idea to give your actions in the world meaning by having them affect your interaction with your party members. In NWN2, it doesn't work well because with the much more complex alignment system, stuff gets too unpredictable. Sometimes, being the good guy yields an influence loss with Elanee (like when you're telling the thugs that you'll protect Neeshka), sometimes it results in an influence gain. Sometimes, incredibly evil actions (e.g. setting the Bard in Black Lake on fire and stealing his lute) result in no influence change at all.
So in the end, you can only guess how your actions will affect party interaction and you'll guess wrong as often as you'll be right. For example, sometimes it's good to tell Khelgar to restrain himself (e.g. the bandit encounter enroute to the bandit camp in Act I), sometimes it's bad. No rhyme, no reason.
The party interaction system was supposed to be a step forward from KotOR 2 but it ended up being conceptually identical and actually a step backwards because it seems too much party content has been cut. So I am not even sure the whole thing is meaningful anymore.
In fact, I'm not even convinced anymore it's a good system to begin with. The basic premise is sound (your actions influence your relations with party members) but the way it works doesn't really make you roleplay your character, it makes you play in a way to maximize influence with party members ("What do I have to do now to make the treehugger chick happy?"). A system that was supposed to give the roleplaying aspect more depth ends up killing it.
I think NWN2 is a story of wasted potential. The ingredients seem so right: a faithful implementation of the D&D system (including combat), a castle to upgrade and manage, an influence system with unlockable storylines for party members... it could have been something great. In the end, all the great ideas are ruined by their intransparent, quirky and half-assed implementation. It's a shame.
And before the "balance" GeStaPo jumps my ass like a bunch of lubed-up sailors again, here's what I like about the game:
- spell effects, weapon and armor graphics
- cool characters and some really entertaining conversations and cut scenes
- the length of the campaign
- the pacing of character advancement, including item upgrades etc.
- the wealth of weapons, armor and equipment available
- Jerro's Haven, the only area so far I found utterly immersive
- the Gem Mines area was pretty fun
- I've even warmed up to the main story line somewhat, it's not my cup of tea but it is well done
Eleazar
09-Nov-2006, 17:30
L233, you should definitely post that on the official NWN2 forums. I haven't gotten the game yet because I am waiting for the patch that will supposedly come around Thanksgiving. Also, I was waiting to see how the reviews would be. When I first heard about NWN2 I was almost sure I would be one of the first to pickup the game. Then I heard about certain features that were cut, maimed, and destroyed. I also then heard about certain features that were left out altogether, or features that just couldn't get the attention they deserved. This was all before the game even came out. This changed my mind and I knew I would only get it if the reviews were good. Well the reviews are good, I wish this game would have been worthy of being rated higher, but it is still good enough for me to buy it. Once that patch comes out I will get the game. I just don't want my NWN2 experience being ruined because I got it too early and everything was buggy or not well polished.
There is still hopes for the future of NWN2. The custom module builders always make some amazing stuff. If NWN1 was any indication of the quality of custom content we will see in NWN2, there is nothing to be worried about.
I beat the game, a few short remarks:
- they don't take away your party for the end fight like they did in KotOR 2, thankfully
- the battle for Crossroads Castle kinda makes up for some of the keep-related annoyances before, nicely done
- the end phase of the game doesn't feel rushed, though not enirely satisfying either, still, no major complaints
- you get a Fallout-stlye end sequence where you get to learn the fate of several places and characters you came in touch with but it's not compelling enough to make me play the game again
- in order to get to the final boss, you have to suffer through some of the most annoying fights in the game and I found most fights to be annoying to begin with
***SPOILERS***
- it's lame that you and your friends simply go MIA, that's rather anti-climactic for an ending
- your party members getting to choose sides would have been an awesome idea, if the influence system wasn't so messed up
I'm glad to be done with it and it's certainly not one of the CRPGs I will keep replaying for years to come... might eBay my copy even.
NWN OC replayability was never a selling point. The multiplayer with online worlds and creating your own worlds was the selling point. WIth the restricted modules now however, I think we'll see a lot less player created worlds and modules this time around.
Randell
10-Nov-2006, 16:42
WIth the restricted modules now however, I think we'll see a lot less player created worlds and modules this time around.
whats that exactly - what restrictions?
whats that exactly - what restrictions?
Module sizes are massive compared to NWN1. Because outside terrain isn't tiles, it makes a walkmesh file. A simple 16x16 land with a few hills and a few buildings can be 30Mb+. This heavily restricts persistent world size as the average PW would be 1-2Gb meaning massive downloads for clients to just play it, and a huge server required as all the zones must be in RAM at once.
Also there is no linux server for NWN2, windows server only. That also greatly restricts hosts.
Randell
10-Nov-2006, 20:20
Module sizes are massive compared to NWN1. Because outside terrain isn't tiles, it makes a walkmesh file. A simple 16x16 land with a few hills and a few buildings can be 30Mb+. This heavily restricts persistent world size as the average PW would be 1-2Gb meaning massive downloads for clients to just play it, and a huge server required as all the zones must be in RAM at once.
Also there is no linux server for NWN2, windows server only. That also greatly restricts hosts.
OK - hopefullywont affect modules too much then. I didn't play any PW's in NWN1.
Eleazar
10-Nov-2006, 21:29
OK - hopefullywont affect modules too much then. I didn't play any PW's in NWN1.
No it won't affect modules too much. The module builder just makes a campaign made up of many modules. Unfortunately this can't be done with PWs unless you use portals. So normal on a computer I would have 5 modules and for my one large campaign. For I PW if I wanted all these modules to be available online, I would have to have five separate servers each with a portals setup pointing to the module on the other servers. It is possible to still have massive online worlds, but only really well put together PWs will actually be able to do this, that and people that have the server infrastructure to do this. Of the current PWs out there, only a two come to mind, COPAP and ALFA. The rest of the PWs that only have one server or limited hardware, will have to upgrade. They then will have to choose to cut a lot of areas in their world, or buy some more servers and more bandwidth. Another problem is that the only real restriction is memory, but there is no 64bit dedicated server. So that means you are only going to get around 4GB of memory, which isn't enough due to the size of the modules and them needed to be fully loaded into the server's memory. With 64bit you can have a lot more memory on a server and things would be much less restricted. I believe there is a way you can cheat and get 5GB of memory for a 32bit application, but I doubt this will be done. The new changes to the engine while great, have crippled the PWs.
Chalnoth
11-Nov-2006, 16:36
Well, finally finished the game. Had a great time, for the most part, but one thing really annoyed me: the game doesn't say that you have to start reciting the names for the shadow reavers manually (at least, I had to for all but the first fight). You just need to activate the scroll in the appropriate character's inventory, and sometimes they'll get interrupted so it's often best to just select those characters.
It's also a good idea to equip every character to the hilt before the end of the game, as well as trying to get their influence up a few points. Anyway, I think I'm off to try again with a different type of character.
I've been procrastinating on really getting anywhere until they fixed the Duelist. Now I find out that a Dev actually replied to a Duelist whine post after so long stating that Canny Defense does work, it just doesn't show visually. Guess I should have checked the rolls on me. Glad I made my +6 int crown anyway.
It's great to see things like Bluff and Diplomacy used even more than the first one, they've made it much easier to achieve goals and stick to my alignment (which is a fun challenge imo).
Is it possible to disable Vsync or enable triple buffering? That seems to be a huge problem with the game IMO. It locks most people with LCDs at or below 30fps regardless of their GPU. With a 7900GTX, I tried NV's control panel and the game's INI. Neither disabled vsync.
I don`t think the game is Vsync limited, I think they`ve chosen to limit the framerate to 30 FPS...I seem to recall reading that somewhere. Even though, I`ve had 40+ framerates indoors with my X1900s, so that would blow that theory out of the water
I remember a dev on the forums confirming that they don't do any framelimiting at all, or force vsync. However the engine has several issues with common configurations as people with Core2s and 8800GTXs are still getting sub 30 fps, whereas some with configs 2 gens old get higher fps. And it's not specifically nvidia/ati related from feedback on the many many threads regarding performance.
However, I think a lot of the people aren't posting configs either, as once you turn off shadows completely it becomes playable, which is a real pity as shadows in NWN1 looked fantastic and performed really well.
Chalnoth
15-Nov-2006, 21:41
Just installed the second patch, and it seems to help a fair amount with performance. The main performance options that seem to have helped are turning off water reflection and refraction, and turning off softer shadows (but leaving full shadowing on). So far, every area seems to be rather playable on my 7800GT SLI setup at 1024x768.
Either it's psychological or it just randomly and unintentionally jiggled something which made a difference on your rig, cause it's just a hotfix. It didn't change anything about the engine.
Chalnoth
16-Nov-2006, 01:02
Either it's psychological or it just randomly and unintentionally jiggled something which made a difference on your rig, cause it's just a hotfix. It didn't change anything about the engine.
I'm sure the main effect was turning off water reflections when the patch was applied. And no, it wasn't a small difference.
Well I finally finished NWN2 last night. I'm glad I had decent influence on the group, I only got 1 failure. I won't say much about the end fight but I found it rather easy in the end, maybe because I had most of my group. Having 20th level wizards and clerics certainly brings a lot of destructive power.
From the point where you start the battles at the keep, the amount of xp you get from the hordes of undead you fight is insane. I went up from 17-19 by the time I got near the King of Shadows, and thats as a Tiefling. I also ended up half way to 20. They certainly got the XP balanced out, I'm fairly sure I did most side quests and follower quests to nearly maximise xp.
So I ended up as a Fighter4/Rogue6/Duelist10 and with his +8 Dex and +6 Int, he wasn't hit very much in the end considering he doesn't actually wear any armor. My only gripe was that the Sword of the Gith is a medium sword so using it I lost my Weapon Finesse and Precise Strike damage :(
It's a pity about the quality of the closing scenes after you kill the King of Shadows, they could really have used a decent narrator.
Some spoilers there, but anyway, nobody seemed to mind.
I have a gut feeling that the end was something hacked together, just like KOTOR2`s, even though not as obvious. I have a feeling that they had larger plans with KOS, with the building up of the character they`ve attempted through the game, especially in the Illefarn ruing. But that`s just a feeling, i may be wrong.
Morgoth the game seems to enable Vsync by default and try to enable triple buffering. On the rigs I've seen the game running on I've seen TB work by default on two of them but not the third. Oh my system I regularly see my 60 fps refresh rate. This game is most certainly not frame locked in any way. I agree that it is an oversight to enable Vsync by default without giving the user an easy way to disable it. This is probably the cause of half the performance complaints.
Changelog (http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=522998&forum=109) for patch 1.03. Highlights: dual item quick slots, AA support, camera tweaks, shadow performance optimizations.
If you are aware of a way to enable triple buffering in D3D for Radeons, feel free to share...was it Demirug`s DXTweaker the one that enabled it?
Unknown Soldier
22-Nov-2006, 20:00
From what I understand, it's on by default .. thus no option to turn it off in the drivers.
US
If you are aware of a way to enable triple buffering in D3D for Radeons, feel free to share...was it Demirug`s DXTweaker the one that enabled it?
Yes, I've used that app to enable D3D TB on a couple games in the past. TB was working on my X1900 out of the box. Strange how its so hit and miss.
v1.03 beta is out. Those who were complaining about the lack of AA here it is.
http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=NWN2Other.Detail&id=39
Be sure to backup My Documents/Neverwinter Nights 2 before applying.
Randell
23-Nov-2006, 08:37
I'm sure the main effect was turning off water reflections when the patch was applied. And no, it wasn't a small difference.
yep in outdoor areas with water like the swamp cave that has a major effect.
People moaning about frame rates just arent turning it down enough. I got it to 20-30fps on my 6800GT after much fiddling at 1280x1024. Main frame rate killers for me were normal mapping, shadow settings (obviously) and the water reflection/refraction settings. When I put in a X1950Pro my frames were 60-70fps at those settings.
I've since turned back on normal mapping, water reflections etc and its back down to 20-30 but looks better :) Still can't handle normal shadows though.
John Reynolds
23-Nov-2006, 14:09
v1.03 beta is out. Those who were complaining about the lack of AA here it is.
http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=NWN2Other.Detail&id=39
Be sure to backup My Documents/Neverwinter Nights 2 before applying.
Thanks for the heads-up. Downloading now.
Edit: Nice, makes a huge difference in the game even at 1920x1200. Turned shadows down to medium and I'm now getting fairly decent frame rates (with the latest features also disabled as recommended by the last official patch).
Chalnoth
23-Nov-2006, 15:52
Well, my GeForce 8800 GTX and 24" LCD arrived last night. My God does it look beautiful. NWN2 seems to play great at 1920x1200 with 4x AA, with everything turned on (Same with FEAR and Oblivion, by the way, but no AA in Oblivion yet :( ). I haven't yet gotten to the places that brought my 7800GT SLI rig to its knees, though, so I don't know if I'll have to turn stuff off yet to keep the resolution up.
John Reynolds
23-Nov-2006, 16:17
Why no Oblivion HDR+AA?
Chalnoth
23-Nov-2006, 16:27
Why no Oblivion HDR+AA?
Presumably because of the game. I haven't tried the latest drivers for the 8800, though, so it's conceivable that nVidia has programmed a workaround that I haven't tried.
Are we talking about the same game? Looks beautiful? Ok, my initial assertion that it looks worse than Kotor2 might have been a wee tiny little tad exaggerated but seriously, some huge parts of the graphics looks quite horrid and it's often stuff that really impacts the overall impression negatively.
I'm talking about about the outdoor areas, they are in stark contrast to the really well done indoor areas. Most of the outdoors just look incredibly bland and lacking in detail. Same with the cities, they're so bland that they're on the verge of being ugly. It's not as much a technical issue as it it's an issue of art direction and artwork. What's lacking is some sort of larger artistic vision that transcends mere competent artwork. The KotOR games have that sort of stylistic direction, NWN2 doesn't. That's why my first reaction was that KotOR2 is visually more appealing.
It's the very same reason why WoW is such a pretty game despite being technically comparable to games that were released 5 years ago. Artwork and stylistic direction.
I'm downloading the patch right now, I haven't even fired up the game once since I got my 8800GTS because I was just so DONE with it but I guess I can at least have a look at the AA'ed graphics and max setting.
Edit: Heh, downloaded the patch, maxed out all settings. Playing at 1280x1024, 16x AF (no optimizations), 4x AA + transparency AA. A 8800GTS overclocked to 600/900 shouldn't have any problems with that, or so I thought. The game still runs like a turd, getting 15-20 FPS and no, I still don't think that there is anything on screen that even remotely warrants such abysmal performance on high-end hardware.
ZoinKs!
24-Nov-2006, 05:34
For those in the US, Best Buy has nwn 2 on sale for $24.99. I'm ordering it online and even with tax + shipping it's ends up $29.27. :smile:
Chalnoth
24-Nov-2006, 07:05
Edit: Heh, downloaded the patch, maxed out all settings. Playing at 1280x1024, 16x AF (no optimizations), 4x AA + transparency AA. A 8800GTS overclocked to 600/900 shouldn't have any problems with that, or so I thought. The game still runs like a turd, getting 15-20 FPS and no, I still don't think that there is anything on screen that even remotely warrants such abysmal performance on high-end hardware.
Odd. To be fair, when I was playing at 1920x1200, with all of the details turned up, there were some framerate hitches that looked like texture load delays to me. But once those were over with, the game played pretty decently, only slowing down when lots of big spells were flying around, and a small amount in the city areas (though admittedly I still haven't traveled to Blacklake, which had the biggest issues).
I'm not talking about hitching, that would be forgivable. In some areas, I am getting FPS that are consistently in the 10-20 FPS range for no apparent reason whatsoever. FPS increase some when I zoom the camera away from my party. While I do get 30+ FPS in many locations, I'm seeing 10-20 FPS far too often. And I didn't even fight or anything, just standing around looking at my party or the surroundings.
http://www.t3rbo.com/photo/img/e0ebaf66fb8fdb9cc4c800f7eeb2430f/tnwn2-1.jpg (http://www.t3rbo.com/photo/view.php?img=e0ebaf66fb8fdb9cc4c800f7eeb2430f)
When I took this screenshot, FRAPS showed a consistent 11 FPS
http://www.t3rbo.com/photo/img/6879011c2ac686e1f2d502b7aa85c1ce/tnwn2-2.jpg (http://www.t3rbo.com/photo/view.php?img=6879011c2ac686e1f2d502b7aa85c1ce)
Sub-20 FPS
http://www.t3rbo.com/photo/img/d85e852a37d22641e790e715f5eab2d0/tnwn2-3.jpg (http://www.t3rbo.com/photo/view.php?img=d85e852a37d22641e790e715f5eab2d0)
~22 FPS
http://www.t3rbo.com/photo/img/2a5ecca2b5b70bafcbfce3e74cf0bc2d/tnwn2-4.jpg (http://www.t3rbo.com/photo/view.php?img=2a5ecca2b5b70bafcbfce3e74cf0bc2d)
18 FPS
Considering the level of graphics and draw distance, you'd expect a solid 30+ FPS minimum on that kind of hardware. Technically, the graphics are unimpressive, they didn't even alpha-blend the damn grass (and it's not like there was much of it to begin with).
Ewwww. Quite Morrowindish.
Rodéric
24-Nov-2006, 08:33
I was to buy it, postponed it...
Not even sure I'll buy it anymore. (not the least interested in single player mode)
The patch improves things, yes, but it`s still saggy in terms of performance/quality. It`s not like the game is the most graphically advanced thing on earth. The main issue seems to be the shadows, at least in my experience. AA seems to have little performance impact, which is good.
I`m wondering if they`ll also get around to enabling HDR...everything seems to be there, even an in-game menu for putzing with it, but it`s disabled...wonder why.
poopypoo
24-Nov-2006, 08:56
http://www.t3rbo.com/photo/img/e0ebaf66fb8fdb9cc4c800f7eeb2430f/tnwn2-1.jpg (http://www.t3rbo.com/photo/view.php?img=e0ebaf66fb8fdb9cc4c800f7eeb2430f)
When I took this screenshot, FRAPS showed a consistent 11 FPS
http://www.t3rbo.com/photo/img/6879011c2ac686e1f2d502b7aa85c1ce/tnwn2-2.jpg (http://www.t3rbo.com/photo/view.php?img=6879011c2ac686e1f2d502b7aa85c1ce)
Sub-20 FPS
http://www.t3rbo.com/photo/img/d85e852a37d22641e790e715f5eab2d0/tnwn2-3.jpg (http://www.t3rbo.com/photo/view.php?img=d85e852a37d22641e790e715f5eab2d0)
~22 FPS
http://www.t3rbo.com/photo/img/2a5ecca2b5b70bafcbfce3e74cf0bc2d/tnwn2-4.jpg (http://www.t3rbo.com/photo/view.php?img=2a5ecca2b5b70bafcbfce3e74cf0bc2d)
18 FPS
Considering the level of graphics and draw distance, you'd expect a solid 30+ FPS minimum on that kind of hardware. Technically, the graphics are unimpressive, they didn't even alpha-blend the damn grass (and it's not like there was much of it to begin with).
Whoa. nice screens. The graphics engine and performance aside, those characters are fugly. Nice job, art director! XD Those are like the worst-looking characters I've seen since some King's Quest shit or something. :razz:
Whoa. nice screens. The graphics engine and performance aside, those characters are fugly. Nice job, art director! XD Those are like the worst-looking characters I've seen since some King's Quest shit or something. :razz:Kinda makes me wish they would return to the 2D Baldurs Gate graphics.
Chalnoth
24-Nov-2006, 10:36
Well, I checked, and yes, I get similar framerates as reported by FRAPS. But it doesn't seem to be related to the video resolution at all. In the Docks district, I got pretty much the exact same framerate whether I was playing at 1920x1200 or 1280x768. Anyway, guess I just don't mind having a framerate around 20 in an RPG like this (though it does get quite a bit better indoors, typically). The nice thing is, there doesn't appear to be any place in the game where it becomes unplayable, even with the detail turned all the way up. With my 7800 GT SLI rig, there were severe performance issues in Blacklake if I didn't turn water reflections off. Not so any longer.
Kinda makes me wish they would return to the 2D Baldurs Gate graphics.
Eh, I agree that the character models (at least the faces, the bodies are done reasonably well) are incredibly ugly but it's not like BG2 was much better in that regard.
http://www.t3rbo.com/photo/img/2a15c297f17ae2c226bd7bd0604cbaf2/bg2nwn2.jpg
That's the most "attractive" Elf chick I was able to create in each game. All female Elves in NWN2 look like dudes. Some of the character artwork in NWN2 is truly laughable.
John Reynolds
24-Nov-2006, 14:27
With the new beta patch enabling AA, I decided to start playing the game yesterday and put about five hours into it. Got to High Cliff with a party of four. Really enjoying the game so far, definitely has a BG2 feel to it insofar as party interactions go. The pathing and NPC A.I. are my only real complaints, since 20+fps is plenty for me with a game like NWN2.
Cartoon Corpse
25-Nov-2006, 00:56
interesting the difference. though im sure you're sure as well.
silhouette
25-Nov-2006, 20:09
Official patch is out as well.. Loads of enhancements/bug-fixes.. I definitely want to check out this, but still not sure because of the bugs and performance problems (given that I only have a Go7400 on a laptop)
John Reynolds
26-Nov-2006, 01:23
Loving the game now. The party interaction is the best I've seen since BG2, IMO. And the game gets much better as it progresses. The pathing and NPC AI still need work, and I'd love to see a patch dropped just for overall performance, but the 7-8 hours I've spent with NWN2 so far have been a lot of fun.
Official patch is out as well..
The beta v1.03 patch posted above is official. The final hasn't been released yet.
banksie
26-Nov-2006, 21:51
I've not had a lot of time to play with the game so have only made it to the Merchants Quarter of Neverwinter (not yet into the Blacklake district.). With the beta 1.03 patch I can play at 1680x1050 with everything on except soft shadows and get around 15-20 frames per second at the docks. Which is fine enough for me.
I've actually found the game to be quite pretty, amazed at the detail work on some of the armour and robes that is present. Compared to NWN1 it is a big leap forward graphically. And the campaign is just a bunch of fun thus far, been bailing Neeshka's ass out a fair bit thus far which isn't doing Khelgar's temper any good I can tell you...
I pre-ordered this and am very happy with the purchase.
John Reynolds
27-Nov-2006, 23:07
Same here, loving the game and I'm still in Act I.
Playing it at 2560x1600 with 2x AA now that the 3007 arrived. This is with a single Radeon 1950 XTX so the frame rate is a lovely 15-20. But is it beautiful. . . .
John Reynolds
30-Nov-2006, 23:30
In Act 2, just cleaned out the Crossroads keep.
If you thought lowering shadows to medium helped the game's performance, try low. Huge impact on frame rate.
Randell
01-Dec-2006, 14:12
the good thing about the game is that if you run fraps you can see the impact each option has on screen immediately you click apply.
When I'm underground in NWN2 I do like to have full shadows on, so I'm playing around with turning off normal mapping and that makes full shadows playable.
digitalwanderer
20-Dec-2006, 00:06
So the AA works with the 1.03 patch and most bugs are ironed out of this, is it fun now?
Well since AA = fun its an easy yes.
digitalwanderer
20-Dec-2006, 00:12
AA ≠ fun...
..it's just the lack of AA makes it unplayable for me.
Yes the AA is there along with loads of bug fixes and significant performance increases.
Here (http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=535222&forum=109) is a partial change log for the next patch. The most interesting changes in my opinion are the implementation of a voice chat menu and the large flora revamp.
John Reynolds
20-Dec-2006, 00:23
So the AA works with the 1.03 patch and most bugs are ironed out of this, is it fun now?
Depends on how much you like D&D-based RPGs. This and ToEE are the only things since Baldur's Gate 2 to lift my skirt in that department, so despite some of its design warts I still really like NWN2.
digitalwanderer
20-Dec-2006, 00:25
I'm a big D&D fan, but I've never tried a PC D&D game. :oops:
Just found this (http://www.gamespot.com/features/6163248/index.html) performance review of the game @ Gamespot. It has setting comparisons, setting benchmarks, GPU benchmarks, CPU benchmarks & even memory benchmarks. The one thing that surprised me were the CPU numbers. Also it seems the game favors ATi when comparing the numbers to how the cards normally stack up against each other.
poopypoo
20-Dec-2006, 00:59
I generally cannot stand these D&D grinds, but ToEE inexplicably held my attention straight through a pretty long game. Two questions: Is that team due to make a ToEE sequel anytime? and is NWN 2 really comparably fun to ToEE?
John Reynolds
20-Dec-2006, 01:46
Gamespot also has a decent walk through here: http://download.gamespot.com/d4/gsc/gameguides/nwn2.pdf
Troika, developer of ToEE, went under after Vampire a couple of years ago, so no foreseeable ToEE sequel (rumors of Against the Giants abounded, which I would've loved with the ToEE engine polished up). If you got through ToEE, NWN2 might hold your interest, but it's not as accessible as ToEE.
I'll pick it up when it's in the cheap bin.
John Reynolds
25-Dec-2006, 15:14
Finished the game last night with my paladin. Kind of disappointed he didn't make 20th (only 19th) as a planetouched build. Was also surprised at who betrayed me in the end, though I suppose having a chaotic neutral character turn on a lawful good paladin makes sense. Just disappointing since she was always in my party. The end fights were a bit too scripty for my tastes too, but they weren't too difficult. The 3 reavers right before the final room were actually the hardest fight since I screwed up and didn't get a elder elemental at the top of the steps to keep from fighting two at the same time, and I lost Khelgar and Qara very early in the fight and only had one raise dead/resurrect spell in Zhaeve. My paladin tanked both since he had the holy avenger (better dmg for him than the Sword of Gith) with like 26 strength and an AC of 42.
Restarted the game with a lawful evil (human, so she can reach 20th level safely) female monk. Figured a monk would be fun and the class prevents duplication with any of the NPCs, and playing evil would let me see reactions to some of the other conversation choices. I also went with Moire's gang of thugs in the dock district once I reached Neverwinter itself. Debating whether or not to put a few levels into the prestige Shadowdancer class or go straight 20 levels as a monk. Couldn't care less about quivering palm since most mobs will resist at that level and I always have stoneskin up so getting the dmg resistance at 20th is no big deal either.
I'm also paying a lot more attention to crafting items, skills, and feats. I'm going to use Sand a lot more than Qara once he's available, so I'll probably use Qara's feats choices for crafting and let her hump the ingredients around. I only crafted one item during the 40+ hours I played through with my paladin and that was bracers +6. Like an idiot, I never bought a mortar + pestle and never paid attention to body parts dead mobs dropped. The game will definitely be easier with +6 items in every character's main attribute at 10-12th level ( assuming I can find or buy everything needed).
Finished the game last night with my paladin. Kind of disappointed he didn't make 20th (only 19th) as a planetouched build. Was also surprised at who betrayed me in the end, though I suppose having a chaotic neutral character turn on a lawful good paladin makes sense. Just disappointing since she was always in my party.
Has nothing to do with your aligment or how long the NPC was in your party. It's all about anticipating which option affects your influence and min/maxing the stupid interaction minigame.
Restarted the game with a lawful evil (human, so she can reach 20th level safely) female monk.
Have fun trying to stay both, lawful and evil. Im not sure it can be done, the whole "evil" apsect of the game is very shoddy and not well fleshed out at all. Remember, you need to be lawful to level as a monk.
Debating whether or not to put a few levels into the prestige Shadowdancer class or go straight 20 levels as a monk. Couldn't care less about quivering palm since most mobs will resist at that level and I always have stoneskin up so getting the dmg resistance at 20th is no big deal either.
IIRC monk is one of these classes that most people stirnlgy prefer not to multiclass.
IIRC monk is one of these classes that most people stirnlgy prefer not to multiclass.
Monk combines extremely well with Red Dragon Disciple, which I did in NWN1 HotU.
John Reynolds
26-Dec-2006, 14:45
Have fun trying to stay both, lawful and evil. Im not sure it can be done, the whole "evil" apsect of the game is very shoddy and not well fleshed out at all. Remember, you need to be lawful to level as a monk.
Heh, I've been watching that very closely. I've taken a lot of hits toward chaos, but if I make it to 13th and multi-class over to Shadowdancer I won't care. But, yeah, a lot of those 'evil' responses give a chaos hit to your alignment, which I don't care for too much.
IIRC monk is one of these classes that most people stirnlgy prefer not to multiclass.
Because people focus on min/maxing their toons. I'm guilty of that myself to a degree, but I'm willing to let a few areas go for what I think sounds like a cool prestige class.
John Reynolds
26-Dec-2006, 16:08
One thing I learned concerning crafting from JE Sawyer is that you can downgrade essences by using a mortar & pestle on them. So if you have a glowing fire essence and need a weak fire essence for a recipe, just use the equipment on it. Also, if you need, say, a radiant essence but have only glowing, you can put two glowing into a alchemist's workbench and then use a mortar & pestle on the bench and those two will become a single higher grade essence (faint > weak > glowing > radiant). This works for all categories of essences, but requires a high craft alchemy skill for creating glowing and radiant essences.
Chalnoth
26-Dec-2006, 16:37
Yeah, I just got into crafting in this game my second time through. The first time I totally ignored it.
One thing that upset me with crafting is that the +2 magical damage counts as a magical effect for crafting purposes, so you can only add two magical effects to an adamantine weapon. So instead I just managed to make a pair of +5 rapiers with +2d6 damage vs. evil. One is alchemical silver and does +1d6 fire damage, the other is cold iron and does +1d6 cold damage. I use 'em both on my shadowdancer rogue, and wow does he kick ass now! Level 15 and at the part where I'm getting those rituals and he just totally destroys all opponents.
John Reynolds
26-Dec-2006, 16:43
Don't feel bad, there's no recipe in the game for gloves so no crafting +5 hin fists for my monk.
Randell
26-Dec-2006, 23:19
Heh, I've been watching that very closely. I've taken a lot of hits toward chaos, but if I make it to 13th and multi-class over to Shadowdancer I won't care. But, yeah, a lot of those 'evil' responses give a chaos hit to your alignment, which I don't care for too much..
Think about it, the gang is chaotic/neutral, the watch is lawful - whether evil or good. Lawful Evil should be strong police state, with spies/thought police etc. Not dock theives - or maybe gangsters with a code - like Yakuza or Mafia, can be lawful evil.
Just found this (http://www.gamespot.com/features/6163248/index.html) performance review of the game @ Gamespot. It has setting comparisons, setting benchmarks, GPU benchmarks, CPU benchmarks & even memory benchmarks. The one thing that surprised me were the CPU numbers. Also it seems the game favors ATi when comparing the numbers to how the cards normally stack up against each other.
Wow.. the game certainly loves cpus (and C2D), which is very disappointing given I still have a 2.4ghz A64 but just bought a 8800gts which should be on my doorstep tomorrow.
Oh well, atleast I can enjoy Oblivion maxed out.
John Reynolds
29-Dec-2006, 23:43
http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=535222&forum=109
Small list of fixes and features in the upcoming 1.04 patch.
Ragemare
30-Dec-2006, 18:02
I'm personally finding the main campaign boring and uninspired. Hopefully there will be an expansion as good as HotUD with less annoying characters.
Overall I found the game to be very mediocre. The bland cast of characters and uninspired story mixed with horrendous AI just didn't do much for me, and to top it all off the mighty King of Shadows looked like something straight out of Kingdom Hearts.
John Reynolds
01-Jan-2007, 21:44
Almost finished with the game a 2nd time playing with a lawful evil female monk. She's sporting +8 periapt of wisdom, +8 belt of strength, +5 boots that put her dex up to 22, +5 gloves that do 1d6 of cold and fire each per hit, etc. I sicked her on the fire giant king and his gang by herself and I think she got hit once (AC is 40).
Thinking of going a 3rd time with a wood elf ranger and multi-classing him over to arcane archer. And possibly an evil wizzie and going pale master since that prestige class just sounds too cool. Yes, I'm thoroughly addicted to the game. You haters need to bugger off and go play some Fable or WoW. :razz:
Chalnoth
02-Jan-2007, 01:46
Huh. How'd you get the +8 items? I've only seen +6 ones so far...
Anyway, just started my third character. Decided to go with a straight fighter. She's a chaotic neutral female human fighter who likes to dual-wield great swords (with monkey grip). I thought I'd have fun with a very strange fighting build.
John Reynolds
02-Jan-2007, 01:52
Try these recipes, Chal. The high-end gems like King's Tear and Beljurils are, as you know, very rare and hard to find, and only available toward the end of Act 2 and throughout Act 3. Sand and Elanee were my two crafters for my 2nd play-thru. Anyways, I believe all of the below are tested recipes and work just fine.
Periapt of Wisdom +8: +8 bonus to Wisdom
Requires: Caster Level 8, Craft Wondrous Item feat
Ingredients: Leather Hide + Radiant Water Essence + Beljuril
Spell: Owl's Wisdom
Belt of Agility +8: +8 bonus to Dexterity, Freedom of Movement
Requires: Caster Level 8, Craft Wondrous Item feat
Ingredients: Leather Hide + Radiant Air Essence + Beljuril
Spell: Cat's Grace
Belt of Cloud Giant Strength: +8 bonus to Strength
Requires: Caster Level 8, Craft Wondrous Item feat
Ingredients: Leather Hide + Radiant Fire Essence + King's Tear
Spell: Bull's Strength
Boots of Striding +8: +8 bonus to Constitution
Requires: Caster Level 8, Craft Wondrous Item feat
Ingredients: Leather Hide + Radiant Earth Essence + Beljuril
Spell: Bear's Endurance
Nymph Cloak +8: +8 bonus to Charisma
Requires: Caster Level 8, Craft Wondrous Item feat
Ingredients: Radiant Water Essence + Beljuril
Spell: Eagle's Splendor
Headband of Intellect +8: +8 bonus to Intelligence
Requires: Caster Level 8, Craft Wondrous Item feat
Ingredients: Leather Hide + Radiant Fire Essence + Beljuril
Spell: Fox's Cunning
Chalnoth
02-Jan-2007, 02:05
Heh, nice, I'll have to check those out. And only caster level 8? That's just too easy!
As for the crafter, I find that Sand can't do a few things due to his class limitations, and so use Qara and spell scrolls to fill things in. But I have found two merchants who sell the rare gems. The first is Sand in his shop (and later the golem he leaves behind, after he joins your party). The second is a merchant in merchant's square (can't remember the name, but he's standing outside).
John Reynolds
02-Jan-2007, 02:50
The caster levels might be wrong, not sure. But, yeah, I've bought a few rares myself. The monk monastery sells a rogue stone and I've bought a king's tear in Act 3 from a merchant (the new guys hawking their wares once the city is in disaster mode and people are leaving). I've had Sand make the +8 items for strength, wisdom, constitution, and intelligence, so I know those recipes work. You can't craft certain things like bows and gloves, but the latter wasn't an issue for my monk since the monastery quest ends with the best gloves in the game being awarded (listed earlier).
Still haven't decided on arcane archer or pale master for my 3rd go at the game.
Chalnoth
02-Jan-2007, 11:25
Oh, and has anybody here found all of Nasher's items? In Hordes of the Underdark, there were four items: boots, a ring, a cloak, and gloves. When combined, their bonuses all became +7. I've found the ring and the boots in NWN2...anybody find the cloak and gloves?
John Reynolds
03-Jan-2007, 00:19
I don't recall finding any Nasher items, though having ignored NWN1 since playing its OC in '02 and promptly uninstalling it, those items hold no relevance and I could've very easily just sold them off.
Finalized my 3rd character's build after fishing for suggestions from 3.5 ed. experts on another forum. Went with a chaotic good shield dwarf who's put 4 levels into fighter, 1 bard, and has 1 in red dragon disciple so far. He'll go 10 RDD levels and then the last five in maybe frenzied berserker or the Nine. . .not sure yet. He's taking feats like weapon focus, knockdown, improved crit, power attack, cleave, greater cleave, etc. . just all combat feats for criticals, cleaving, and knockdowns. With the +8 belt crafted later on he should have a 38 strength at 20th level, and he's specializing in scythes for their threat range and x4 criticals. Throw in a peripat of +5 natural armor with his dragon skin and red dragon armor and he should be looking at an AC of roughly 45, and with boots of striding +8 con he'll have a huge pool of hit points. He'll also be immune to fire by 15th level, so he'll be stomping on red dragons and balors while getting his beard groomed. Total min-max toon with a cheesy-ass name to fit his build: Gowan Oakheart. :razz:
Chalnoth
03-Jan-2007, 00:35
One thing I like to do now when creating a new character is immediately put them up to level 20 (DebugMode 1, then givexp 200000) in order to see how I like the build as it goes up in levels. Then reload the game back and play through the game with confidence that I'll like the character at high levels :)
John Reynolds
03-Jan-2007, 01:34
One thing I like to do now when creating a new character is immediately put them up to level 20 (DebugMode 1, then givexp 200000) in order to see how I like the build as it goes up in levels. Then reload the game back and play through the game with confidence that I'll like the character at high levels :)
I've never tried that. Hmm, will have to give that a whirl with the tiefling sorcerer/eldritch knight I was contemplating.
Inane_Dork
03-Jan-2007, 05:49
Make it 253,000 in case your character has a level adjustment.
I've tried 300,000 but the game seems to max out at 253,000 (IIRC).
Rodéric
03-Jan-2007, 10:53
bleh !
Rule players everywhere :p
We've been trying to play the campagain with couple of my friends and argh, the game is so frustrating. NWN2 is almost a straight copy of the NWN1 but everything works worse. Automatic transitions in co-op, henchmans you can't ditch, forced conversations & cutscenes and the bloody scripts. There are scripts everywhere and the game just doesn't feel like free adventuring.
How on earth it's possible that the cleave and knockdown-attacks are missing animations completely?!
NWN1's engine with some updates to the graphics, a new campaign and maybe some new prestige classes would have been enough and could have been released under the name NWN2.
And the UI is crap.
And why in the God's sake every icon is same size in the inventoy? Currently I can't differ my weapons from my scrolls. I really don't get the same epic feeling from the weapons when I can't tell a difference from a short sword +1 and a short word of the eternal bane and megakilling machine. And why on earth every time I need to see some information, I need to scroll down? The boxes are so thin that everytime they have a vertical scrollbar. The whole game gives me a feeling that no one ever playtested it.
Chalnoth
04-Jan-2007, 22:49
The primary campaign is probably better when played single-player. Why not try some user-created modules? Here's a place you could start looking for modules:
http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=nwn2modulesenglish.list&show_days_back=10
And you might want to look at some discussion of various modules before playing:
http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums/viewforum.html?forum=111
The primary campaign is probably better when played single-player.
Aye, I came to the same conclusion.
Not sure why but "our party" has mostly played the official campaigns and only few of the the 3rd party modules has interested us enough to play them through. We don't play often so that's worked for us. So for now I think we're going back to NWN1 and I'm sure we can find quite a many good modules and maybe eventually we can try NWN2 again.
Chalnoth
04-Jan-2007, 23:03
Aye, I came to the same conclusion.
Not sure why but "our party" has mostly played the official campaigns and only few of the the 3rd party modules has interested us enough to play them through. We don't play often so that's worked for us. So for now I think we're going back to NWN1 and I'm sure we can find quite a many good modules and maybe eventually we can try NWN2 again.
Yeah, I can see that. I'm sure in a few months there will be many good modules that will be quite fun to play together with a small group of players.
Chalnoth
05-Jan-2007, 03:42
Ah, sweet, just found something new out :)
Forged mithril armor allows +2 dex bonus, +3 bonus to armor check penalty, and is one armor type lighter. So, for example, I now am using a set of mithril full plate armor that allows a dex bonus of +3, has an armor check penalty of -3, and only requires the medium armor proficiency to wear.
ChrisRay
05-Jan-2007, 10:17
I just got NWN2, And I'll be trying it with my 8800GTX SLI setup this morning. I am wondering if CSAA works?
chris
John Reynolds
05-Jan-2007, 13:21
Please post some screenies if you get it working, Chris. You should be able to get a decent framerate with most options maxed out.
ChrisRay
05-Jan-2007, 13:32
CSAA doesnt work. But 8xQ/16xAF works pretty well at close to max settings ((Shadow, Lighting, Water)) but left the texture sizes to 2056. I am averaging about 30-50 FPS @ 1400x1200 with 8xQ/16xAF right now.. I'll post some screenshots later. Pretty demanding piece of software
And the UI is crap.
And why in the God's sake every icon is same size in the inventoy? Currently I can't differ my weapons from my scrolls. I really don't get the same epic feeling from the weapons when I can't tell a difference from a short sword +1 and a short word of the eternal bane and megakilling machine. And why on earth every time I need to see some information, I need to scroll down? The boxes are so thin that everytime they have a vertical scrollbar. The whole game gives me a feeling that no one ever playtested it.
Amen to that. The UI is so annoying I sometimes really wonder why I put up with that crap and still continue to play.
Alchemy/Crafting e.g. is a real joke. The tooltips (or better: the lack thereof) as well.
My recent "favorite": Camera control. Each mode sucks in its own special way. The "fixed" modes are somewhat ok until a fight starts - then it gets hopelessly confusing, aggravated by a missing intuitive party control system (not even a "cycle through characters" button? WTF?).
Thus: switch to free mode (and go further away with the camera), which gives some sort of overview, but you can't use it all the time, because you will miss far too many stuff. (Thanks to the map which doesn't even show doors!) And you can't use it to quickly move the party over the map (i.e. move camera to other side of map and left-click) because you are blocked by an invisible circle around your currently selected party member which doesn't reach very far.
And the real fun starts when you are on maps with height differences (like before the gith base). The free camera is next to unusable, because the maximum camera height doesn't keep up with the changing landscape height...
Somehow I have the feeling they looked at NWN1 far too much (which was first and foremost a "single-character" RPG) when designing the UI and completely forgot that you have a party to control now...
There are some UI mods out there already, but it still gonna take a long way to fix all that design flaws (if it is even possible by modding)...
Obsidian really should hire some UI experts next time.
ChrisRay
05-Jan-2007, 14:06
Ok here you are John Reynold. Some initial screenshots running my system. SLI seems pretty well optimised for the game. AVG 60-80% performance gains from a single card. These are all done with 8xAA/16xAF @ 1400x1050. I kept the textures at 3/4th ((2056 rather than 4096)) Basically the default detected settings for my card.
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/713/nwn2main200701050750122fz6.th.jpg (http://img525.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nwn2main200701050750122fz6.jpg)
http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/9558/nwn2main200701050750359lp7.th.jpg (http://img219.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nwn2main200701050750359lp7.jpg)
http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/5200/nwn2main200701050751339ud9.th.jpg (http://img90.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nwn2main200701050751339ud9.jpg)
http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/8171/nwn2main200701050753488yw0.th.jpg (http://img143.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nwn2main200701050753488yw0.jpg)
I think it looks pretty good. Just wish the game allowed for control panel AA. Alpha's could really use transparency multisampling.
John Reynolds
05-Jan-2007, 14:43
Nice shots, Chris. Thanks for posting them.
I play at 2560x1600 with 2x AA, 8x HQ AF, low shadows, soft shadows off, water reflections off, everything else maxed out. This is on a 2.93 Core 2 with 2 GB of memory and a 1950 XTX.
ChrisRay
06-Jan-2007, 03:51
John Reynolds. Its nice to see the engine is fairly scalable. Kinda relief for us LCD owners out there :)
I am a little embarrassed but I cant seem to find Daedrick... ((The elf you start the game talking too in the tutorial)) to give him the bow I got for him back.. I went back to the starting house but I just dont see him. Little embarrassing to be stuck in the tutorial. ><
Chalnoth
06-Jan-2007, 04:01
John Reynolds. Its nice to see the engine is fairly scalable. Kinda relief for us LCD owners out there :)
I am a little embarrassed but I cant seem to find Daedrick... ((The elf you start the game talking too in the tutorial)) to give him the bow I got for him back.. I went back to the starting house but I just dont see him. Little embarrassing to be stuck in the tutorial. ><
His name's Daegun or something...and he's managing the archery competition :)
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