View Full Version : STM pulls the plug on Kyro
GENEVA--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Feb. 8, 2002-STMicroelectronics NYSE:STM) has announced that it is withdrawing from the PC Graphics Accelerator IC market and is currently seeking a buyer for the related assets and activities of its PC Graphics business, which accounted for approximately $15 million of STs $6.36 billion revenues in 2001.
The potential sale is in line with STs objective of focusing its R&D efforts on market areas that are strategically important to the Company, notably: communications, automotive, computer peripherals, smart cards and digital consumer. In the digital consumer market, ST will continue to emphasize set-top box, DVD and digital TV applications, in which the Company holds worldwide leadership positions.
LeStoffer
08-Feb-2002, 09:26
Hotdamn!
...And STMicroelectronics were the one to develop the PowerVR Series4 and Series5 with Imagination Technologies! :eek:
Imagination Technologies still have PowerVR Technologies (and hence the IP) but it'll take time to find a new partner who can develop the next gen. Is Kyro III affected by all this?
What a blow. Not good, not good at all... :sad:
Regards LeStoffer
Dave Baumann
08-Feb-2002, 09:30
Something to note there - they are selling the entire graphics division. STM have already purchased licenses to PowerVR Series 4 & 5 so those would be going to the buyer of the graphics division most likely. If a suitable buyer is found then are they just going to waste those licenses? Especially seeing as STM/PowerVR are pretty far down the path of KYROIII. The license deals that IMG negociated may have even had clauses in there that stipulates the products must come out for desktop.
darkblu
08-Feb-2002, 09:32
would anybody knowledgeable bother to comment what exactly was STM's part in the PVR development and/or production?
Kristof
08-Feb-2002, 09:34
Technologies Group PLC
8 February 2002
IMAGINATION TECHNOLOGIES GROUP PLC
('Imagination')
Re: Announcement by STMicroelectronics ('ST')
Imagination's partnership with STMicroelectronics is focussed upon using Imagination's technology in a number of different markets. Imagination reports that in relation to the PC market, ST has today announced that it is currently
seeking a buyer for its PC Graphics Business which utilises Imagination's PowerVR technology and as a result will be withdrawing from this market area.
Imagination is aware of discussions taking place with interested parties and has been involved in supporting ST with these activities. In addition, a number of interested PC chip companies have approached Imagination regarding access to future PowerVR PC technologies.
Imagination and ST will continue their partnership activities to utilise Imagination's technology in the set-top box market and expect to extend relationship to the mobile device market in due course.
Imagination will update shareholders with any further developments.
Rather than being negative... how about thinking positive and figure out who would be interested in future PowerVR Technology? Who out there would want to step in and take over where ST has left...
No other comments from me, the above quote is from the PR IMG has released on this issue.
LeStoffer
08-Feb-2002, 09:40
On 2002-02-08 10:30, DaveBaumann wrote:
Something to note there - they are selling the entire graphics division. STM have already purchased licenses to PowerVR Series 4 & 5 so those would be going to the buyer of the graphics division most likely. If a suitable buyer is found then are they just going to waste those licenses? Especially seeing as STM/PowerVR are pretty far down the path of KYROIII.
Of course. It's just that the problem is with the possible delay and generel uncertainly that will now prevail over the Kyro-family. Hercules and other just cant sit still hoping for the best outcome. They have business plans and will need a new partner - fast.
Good OEM contracts are crucial the make money in this business. And right now I fear that OEMs are jumping ship... :sad:
Regards, LeStoffer
Dave Baumann
08-Feb-2002, 09:40
would anybody knowledgeable bother to comment what exactly was STM's part in the PVR development and/or production?
PowerVR design the 3D capabilities and license that to STM; STM to all/most of the chip layout and repining; in the case of KYRO they also fabbed the chip, however they used TSMC to fab KYROII. STM also then sell the chips to board vendors.
In essence STM were like NVIDIA (and now ATI) expect for the fact they don’t research and develop the 3D technology, just do the chip work.
bystander
08-Feb-2002, 09:50
Well, I hope this won't delay the Kyro3 from coming out this year.
If IMG was considering taking in more of the development process (or splitting PowerVR off to a company which is willing to do it all) Id be positive. Without inside knowledge its hard to point out the causes of the lack of execution ... maybe IMG just keeps picking poor partners, but I put my money on the fragmented development.
Things seemed to turn around with the Kyro, but each successive step indicated it was just the exception to proove the rule.
As long as IMG seems content to just replace their old partner with a new one and keep doing buessinuess as usual I see no reason for optimisim, even if they find a new partner soon. Big problems loom on the horizon, piddling around in the low end is a poor strategy ... if PowerVR has to follow where others lead it will be led where it cant follow. Time is running out.
darkblu
08-Feb-2002, 09:52
were STM present in the pvr2 production pipeline at the time or was it a VideoLogic-NEC direct relation?
Kristof, as a veteran stockholder of IMG and keen follower of the company since the Avesco days, I have learnt to take all their PR releases with a pinch of salt.
1.When they say they have been approached by a number of companies, it means just that. Nobody has actually stepped up and licensed the designs.
2. When they say they will continue their partnership in the STB market - what partnership? One STM reference STB design was demoed at an electronics fair at Earls Court about 18 months ago, and we have heard nothing since. Recent "home gateway" STB releases from the likes of Pace have had all chosen graphics solutions other than IMG's (Fujitsu parts IIRC)
3. They expect to extend the relationship to the mobile market - "expect" doesn't cut any ice with me or the markets. The MBX cores have been demoed to ARM's partners - current licenses sold - zero.
Think positive? I can't see anything to be positive about, nor anyone buying ST's graphics business for big euros when it has only sold 1 million boards during the two year partnership.
Kristof
08-Feb-2002, 09:55
As said above I can not comment.
Rather than being negative... how about thinking positive and figure out who would be interested in future PowerVR Technology? Who out there would want to step in and take over where ST has left...
nVIDIA? :smile:
Of course I'm joking here..
ciao,
Marco
would be quite funny if NV buys them :wink:
any ideas if ATI/Matrox/who ever is interested buying them?
Rodéric
08-Feb-2002, 10:23
As always, wait and see, time will tell.
Still not a good news :sad:
Sharkfood
08-Feb-2002, 10:31
Intel had some rumored TBR chip due out next month for initial use as a new integrated chip with 3D.
Some hints at:
http://www.infosatellite.com/news/2001/11/a221101i845g.html
Maybe Intel might find some value in the IP for sale and help push their integrated video solutions a bit ahead.
A design like the in-plan KyroIII, tweaked and tuned and designed for integrated use on the future P4 systems would definately be interesting.
Dave Baumann
08-Feb-2002, 10:43
Could Via be another possibility?
This was from a recent article from Digitimes (http://www.digitimes.com/NewsShow/Article.asp?IR=N&ClassID=401&datePublish=2002/01/31&pages=13&seq=79)
“VIA Technologies announced on January 30 the kick-off of its “Canaan Project” to deepen the diversification of its operations. According to the project, VIA will restructure its business into five units – chipsets, processors, graphics chips, optical drives and networking equipment. Its VIA Platform Solutions Division (VPSD) will remain under the chipsets division. Company CEO and president Chen Wen-chi said that VIA will try to position itself as a “platform” provider, instead of just being a core logic chipset designer.”
When 3dfx went under most of the employee’s I knew at the time thought that, right up until the very last minute, they were going to be purchased by Via, so they were in negotiations then. 3dfx was a much bigger fish than STM’s graphics division is so it indicates that even then they had signals to enter the 3D add-in market, and as the post says above it looks like they are going to now. Could the STM deal provide them with the perfect opportunity?
Its been said to me before that when Via purchased S3 they didn’t realise that S3 had no projects underway, so they didn’t have any future tech at the time, just Savage 2000 and all the previous stuff; with STM, however, Via has the licenses for two new chipsets (one that must be quite far down the development path) and a partner who is involved with designing new technologies.
Doomtrooper
08-Feb-2002, 10:45
There is only a few companies that could afford to buy them or even be interested:
Sony
Intel
Amd
Nvdia
ATI
I put Sony up there as it would be in their best interest for future support/development of the PS2 chips.
Brimstone
08-Feb-2002, 10:48
It would be intresting if Nvidia did buy all the intellectual rights to the Power VR. After all they got some tile based IP from the 3dfx deal. Of course ATI would probably be intrested also if the price is right.
PVR_Extremist
08-Feb-2002, 10:50
The technology rocks, so someone SHOULD be interested in it. It's gotta mean delays for K3. Perhaps K3 will end up being PowerVR series 5 tech with the inevitable delays that will result from this.
I wanna know what made them bail out if they were making money?
Do PowerVR have a clause whereby if STM ducks out they can approach other companies?
Dave Baumann
08-Feb-2002, 10:51
I should imagine there would be clauses in the contract with IMG/ST that, in the event of this, they can't sell to a competitor such as that. Again, if the deal stipulates that if they hold a license and it has to be produced for Desktop then I can't see NVIDIA or ATI making PowerVR based products (especially not NVIDIA as they already have tile tech, and they don't seem in a hurry to use it!).
Brimstone
08-Feb-2002, 11:02
Nvidia would only bolster their patent portfolio. With all the R & D thats been done on the Power VR architecture, I would think there are a few worthwhile patents worth securing.
Dave Baumann
08-Feb-2002, 11:05
No, IMG tech own all the patents on PowerVR tech; if anyone buys STM all they would be getting would be the chip engineers and a license to use PowerVR series 4 & 5. Nobody would be purchasing PowerVR patents here.
LeStoffer
08-Feb-2002, 11:12
Please note that we are talking about two different things in regard to the future of the PowerVR-tech:
One is the buy what STM has been working on up until now (PowerVR 4 and maybe PowerVR5) e.g. Kyro III. It should be clear that neither ATI nor nVidia is interested in this since they have their own products - e.g. R300 and NV30 (and then some).
The other thing is about a getting a licens to use future PowerVR-tech. So we're not talking about getting any patent or IP - just the right to use it.
So count ATI and nVidia out. They need full control over their research. VIA makes some sense though.
Regards LeStoffer
Edit: DaveB you beat me on this post!
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: LeStoffer on 2002-02-08 12:13 ]</font>
Musivarius
08-Feb-2002, 11:14
Could a company use this as an opportunity to buy IMG *too* for their IP?
Previously buying IMG would have been complicated by commitments to STM (STM would be a bit big to buy out completely!). Now, IMG's commitments to STM are not a problem, so long as STM's graphics division is purchased at the same time...
Ailuros
08-Feb-2002, 11:15
Via? God noooooo....... :wink:
Brimstone
08-Feb-2002, 11:29
Yeah, if thats the case, Nvidia or ATI wouldn't be that intrested.
PC-Engine
08-Feb-2002, 11:35
PS3 using DC graphics technology would be ironic.
Videologic Germany is actualy happy about STs decision. That's really positive thinking there.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ram on 2002-02-08 12:46 ]</font>
mboeller
08-Feb-2002, 11:50
On 2002-02-08 12:44, ram wrote:
Videologic Germany is actualy happy about STs decision. That's really positive thinking there.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ram on 2002-02-08 12:46 ]</font>
How do You know? Are You working @ videologic now?
Ralf Reynolds, Videologics PR specialist, is giving such statements to the german media.
May be ST didn't push things as hard as ImgTec would have liked it, although they would have been able to? ImgTec couldn't influence how many ressources ST dedicates to their pc graphics department. You remember, ST canned the STG5000. STG4800, a simple refresh/tweaked part, is still not here yet.
Though, it've my doubts wheather the way MfA suggests is really the solution. Not having to deal with the hardware implementation, fabbing costs, inventoring etc. keeps costs and capital requirements down and keeps the company more flexible. This could really be an advantage as long as your licencee is reliable and competitive.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ram on 2002-02-08 13:45 ]</font>
Although it is hard to see good things for the short term, remember that it was STM who insisted that the money was in the low-mid area. If (and it's a biggie) someone else invests in a desktop PVR tech license they may think differently.
Why cant IMG buy the STM division themselves :smile:
Keeping costs low is just a euphemism for keeping the risk low, and thats what just what STM also was doing in turn ... being conservative, how can you expect someone else to take a big risk on technology you arent even willing to take yourself? Of course if you take the risk you dont need someone else to do it for you, but that just shows the whole sillyness that is the concept of licensing technology in this market.
There were a whole lot of companies trying to license technology for 3D graphics hardware ... and they all failed. IMG had a lucky break, but luck runs out.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: MfA on 2002-02-08 13:57 ]</font>
I guess what is interesting is what a small amount of revenue the ST's PC division was making (apx 15 Million), I don't know what PowerVr's revenue is (that is the powervr division not videologic), but most likely its much less.
The whole thing is a shame, its really too bad that PowerVr is not making more money, then they could maybe put some capital into chip design.
Thats what Ralf Reynolds, Sales Manager from Videologic Germany said:
"Der angekündigte Rückzug von STMicroelectronics aus dem PC-Grafikkartenmarkt hat keinen Einfluss auf die Lieferbarkeit unserer Vivid!-Grafikkartenreihe. Imagination Technologies (www.imgtec.com) und STIM sind aktuell in Gesprächen mit potenziellen neuen Partnern, um eine optimale Produktion von Kyro-Chipsätzen zu gewährleisten. Die Weiterentwicklung künftiger Kyro-Chipsätze ist durch diesen Prozess in keiner Weise betroffen."
(copied from http://www.pcgames.de/index.cfm?menu=030101&article_ID=31813 )
the most important part is: The development of future Kyro Chips is not affected.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: mat on 2002-02-08 14:05 ]</font>
how can you expect someone else to take a big risk on technology you arent even willing to take yourself?
Because another company might have more knowledge and experience in this area, doing similar things (HW implementations, fabbing) already for different products and therefore could use synergies.
bystander
08-Feb-2002, 13:27
The rest of that quote for those of you who are interested. (Coutesy of Babelfish)
"the announced retreat of STMicroelectronics from the PC diagram card market does not have influence on the deliverability of our Vivid! Grafikkartenreihe. Imagination Technologies (www.imgtec.com) and STIM are current in discussions with potenziellen new partners, in order to ensure an optimal production of Kyro Chipsaetzen. The advancement of future Kyro Chipsaetze is concerned by this process in no way. "
neccrixx
08-Feb-2002, 13:29
What if Hercules bought them?! I don't know what that would do with their deal(s) with ATI, but then at least now they could aggressively promote the tech.
On 2002-02-08 10:34, Kristof wrote:
Rather than being negative... how about thinking positive and figure out who would be interested in future PowerVR Technology? Who out there would want to step in and take over where ST has left...
Intel could use a new graphics core to go with their integrated chipsets. And they have the fabbing capacity and $$$.
neccrixx
08-Feb-2002, 13:44
... not to mention what the bandwidth savings f tile tech could do for integrated graphics.
Matrox or BitBoys?
Heheheheh j/k needed some Friday humor on a sad topic.
I'd like to see AMD getting involved there.
Right now I just hope that the next Kyro generation is not affected by this.
PVR_Extremist
08-Feb-2002, 14:02
How much would that business be sold for?
Would Hercules take the risk? I doubt it.
This is ripe for someone who has stated an interest and wants what is a very big headstart into the market with a proven technology.
If I was a VIA executive, I'd be on the phone with STM right now.
Intel......now they have the dollars but if they bought it I doubt they would be interested in pushing the technology beyond that of integrated chipsets.
AMD....likewise.
Sony? They have their heads too far up their "emotion engine" bottoms
ATI....It would stregthen their position no-end assuming that they are no where near as advanced in terms of a deferred renderer architecture.
others? dunno......but the best fit has to be VIA at least on paper at this point...
Lefungus
08-Feb-2002, 14:05
Please, everyone except nvidia. I want more than two players in the 3d market.
Joe DeFuria
08-Feb-2002, 14:06
Hey Teasy....
Get out the salt, pepper, and catsup! I hope you have a big appetite. :wink:
bystander
08-Feb-2002, 14:13
It certainly doesn't look good for Kyro3 unfortunately, so Teasy... what was it you say again? :wink:
On 2002-02-08 15:06, Joe DeFuria wrote:
Hey Teasy....
Get out the salt, pepper, and catsup! I hope you have a big appetite. :wink:
It's time to give away some Chianti I have in wine cellar :smile:
You can provide fava Joe.. :smile:
(byw, it's fun to know that in italian 'fava' also could have the meaning of the part of himself Teasy wants to eat..hehehe :wink: )
ciao,
Marco
There were a whole lot of companies trying to license technology for 3D graphics hardware ... and they all failed. IMG had a lucky break, but luck runs out.
Yeah other companies with no track record for ever even having a graphics chip on the market never mind a successful one were looking for partners and failed. However IMGTEC have had a total of 6 PC graphics cards, one console and 2 arcade machines built on their tech, thats a totally different prospect to someone like Bitboys.
Also what do you mean they were lucky? I suppose they were walking along, tripped on some TBR tech that just happened to be lying in the street :smile: and then bumped in to NEC who just happened to be drunk and decided on a wim that they would partner with IMGTEC and make some graphics chips :smile: (because of course IMGTEC would never have gotten to partner such a great company as NEC otherwise right?). Then when that was finished, oh they got some more "luck" when they met ST at a party :smile: Luck has nothing to do with it, they have a great tech and a good record for developing innovative graphics designes and delivering on them and thats why they get partners.. other companies that were looking for partners had records for PR and never delivering a product and thats why they don't get partners (or don't get reliable ones anyway).
Get out the salt, pepper, and catsup! I hope you have a big appetite
Oh don't worry, if Kyro III isn't out by... when was it?.. August, then I will be eating my penis, when I make a bet I stick to it, oh and your right I would have to have an extremely large appitite :smile:
But don't think you've won your bet yet mate. AFAIK Kyro III is just about finished (the design was finished quite a while ago AFAIK). So the only thing that could possibly have stopped ST getting it out by Arpil/May is lack of ambition (surely 0.13 would be ready long before then), as in not making the job a priority ect. Now if a company comes in and buys ST's graphics division and there more ambitious then ST then this could actually help me as they could put a higher priority on getting Kyro III out of the door.. so don't count your chickens until they've hatched :smile:
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Teasy on 2002-02-08 15:46 ]</font>
Lefungus
08-Feb-2002, 14:36
What hercules have said about all this
->http://www.clubic.com/n/n5113.html
--->
Nous avons contactĂ© Hercules en la personne de Christophe Urbanik pour connaĂ®tre la position du principal fabricant de cartes graphiques Ă* base de chips Kyro.
Hercules n'arrĂŞtera pas la production de produits Ă* base de chips Kyro et continuera avec l'Ă©ventuel repreneur. Les ventes des 3D Prophet 4000XT et 3D Prophet 4500 sont d'ailleurs toujours au beau fixe.
A la question "y a-t-il un rapport entre le partenariat avec ATI et l'annonce ST Microelectronics ?" la réponse de Hercules a été formelle : "non".
Il apparait clairement que du cotĂ© de La Gacilly on en sait un peu plus sur les suites de l'annonce de ST Microelectronics mais que le fabricant breton laisse le soin au gĂ©ant franco-italien ou Ă* Imagination Technologies de dĂ©voiler eux-mĂŞmes les dessous de cette annonce pour le moins surprenante.
Hercules reste donc optimiste sur l'avenir des produits Kyro et nous attendons une réponse de ST Microelectronics pour vous en dire plus.
----->
I don't translate it because my english is not so good, but it's good news !!!!
Reverend
08-Feb-2002, 14:42
Anyone willing to guess how much such a purchase is worth?
Oh and Wavey said :Its been said to me before that when Via purchased S3 they didn’t realise that S3 had no projects underwayThat's pretty stupid of them, isn't it? "didn't realise", LOL! Sounded stupid *and* desperate to get into the market.
Dave Baumann
08-Feb-2002, 14:45
Anyone willing to guess how much such a purchase is worth?
General rule of thumb, AFAIK, is ten times the current profits. Dunno how profitable that part of the business was.
Joe DeFuria
08-Feb-2002, 14:45
so don't count your chickens until they've hatched:)
Heh, that is always good advice. :wink: On the other hand, I think many of your assumptions (on the readiness of 0.13, the "only" reason for lack of delivery is lack of ambition...), are just that, assumptions.
And while I'm happy "the bet" seems to be going my way, I am certainly unhappy that this is happening. But perhaps there is a silver lining here...
...I agree with the posts that are critical of IMG's licensing business model for the desktop-graphics market. I think that if PowerVR is to be successfully resurrected, then IMG should buy the STM Graphics division themself, and start making their own chips. I hope IMG/VideoLogic takes this opportunity to do what needs to be done. Otherwise, I fear we might be seeing the last of PowerVR in the desktop market. :sad:
Reverend
08-Feb-2002, 14:47
Well, um, was this profitable business for STM in the first case?
Heh, that is always good advice. On the other hand, I think many of your assumptions (on the readiness of 0.13, the "only" reason for lack of delivery is lack of ambition...), are just that, assumptions.
A but now your assuming that that is an assumption on my part.. you shouldn't assume that as it may not be :smile:
I think that if PowerVR is to be successfully resurrected, then IMG should buy the STM Graphics division themself
It'd be nice if that happened but its not going to happen IMO.
I guess what is interesting is what a small amount of revenue the ST's PC division was making (apx 15 Million)
Is that total revenue or might that be profit? Because I can't see how that could be total revenue, they sold over 1 million Kyro chips, so unless there were selling them for under $15 each then they had to have made more then that. Perhaps they were selling Kyro 1 for $15 each once Kyro II came along, but I'd imagine at the start when Kyro was $100+ they'd have been selling each chip for more like $25-$30 surely and when Kyro II came out and it started selling for around $130 I'd also imagine they'd be selling those chips for at least $30 as well (obviously getting cheaper as the cards started to sell for $90 then $70 and finally $60.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Teasy on 2002-02-08 16:08 ]</font>
Joe DeFuria
08-Feb-2002, 14:55
A but now your assuming that that is an assumption on my part.. you shouldn't assume that as it may not be
Well, that was primarily the reason for the bet! To see who's "assumptions" were more or less correct. :wink:
But if you have evidence that "lack of ambition" is the only reason wht we don't see KyroIII on the shelf today, I'm all ears! :smile:
BTW for who's process was the KyroIII being developed? If it was for STM will they still fab it? Or does it have to be retargeted? (How long would that take? Or did they never even get to the layout?)
Marco
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: MfA on 2002-02-08 16:04 ]</font>
Marco, Kyro III is being targetted at TSMC's 0.13 micron process.
:sad:
well SIS might be there but having the targeted process being TSMC's would put them out of interest...
to see K3 being made to desktop, the only few purchaser left seems to be...
IMG.
Herc.
VIA.
SiS (with a lot fo delay)
NEC (note they are still making their own brand of gfx chips/cards in japan, a few of those can be seem in spec's database.)
AMD aint going to be interested.
BTW there are a lot of i830MG notebooks out already. So if anyone cares, they can test some of kryo's launch demos to see if they are indeed using TBR, some so sort of deferred rendering arch.
Hellbinder
08-Feb-2002, 15:56
This is BS.
All that Stuff posted about how there are more than 2 major competitors. All that talk about Future products. "its comming" bla bla bla.
You guys supposedly had good sales, You kicked but with SEGA, Hercules and others on board. Explain WHY???
Did STM Make a profit? how bout 25$ X 4.5 million dreamcast in 1998-1999.
Anyway, this really stinkith. All I can say is that If Nvidia Buys you guys (wich is probobly EXACTLY whats going to happen). I am Going to PUKE.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Hellbinder[CE] on 2002-02-08 16:57 ]</font>
Joe DeFuria
08-Feb-2002, 16:13
Ranting aside, STM has nothing to do with Dreamcast. AFAIK, the Dreamcast chips were/are all NEC made. I could be wrong, but I think the only chips that STM have produced are for the Kyro I and II line of products.
And yes, it would be questionable if those products turned any significant profit.
Magnum PI
08-Feb-2002, 16:13
i don't think STM ever made money from the dreamcast. they were not implied in this, only in the PC graphics cards using kyro.
RobTuck
08-Feb-2002, 16:13
Ive been sitting here most of the day reading these posts, but now youve made me register :smile:
Firstly, get a grip :smile:
Secondly, NEC made the Dreamcast chips, not STM, and I believe there were about 6 million.
Third, Noone is buying PowerVR or ImgTec. The PowerVR Technology and IP does not belong to STM, so its not going anywhere.
If nVidia bought STM, it wouldnt make the slightest bit of difference to PowerVR.
It would make no sense for nVidia to buy STM anyway, so I wouldnt bother even going down that road.
Did STM Make a profit? how bout 25$ X 4.5 million dreamcast in 1998-1999.
AFAIK there were 10 million Dreamcasts sold, also there was all the Dreamcast chips in Naomi 1 and II arcade machines. But that wasn't ST Micro/IMGTEC, that was NEC/IMGTEC.
Anyway, this really stinkith. All I can say is that If Nvidia Buys you guys (wich is probobly EXACTLY whats going to happen). I am Going to PUKE.
Why would Nvidia buy ST Micro's graphics division? They'd only get the technicians that worked on Kyro 1 and II as well as licences to produce products on PowerVR Series 3, 4 and 5 (they may not even get that), they wouldn't get any patents or anything. Al the petants for PowerVR Tech would stay with IMGTEC.
Reverend
08-Feb-2002, 16:21
If nVidia bought STM, it wouldnt make the slightest bit of difference to PowerVR...... but maybe it would, to some PVR employees, which matters a lot, no? This industry can get very personal, y'know?
:smile:
RobTuck
08-Feb-2002, 16:25
:wink:
I meant, business-wise.
nVidia buying STM wouldnt mean nVidia would be buying PowerVR.
Would nVidia stoop so low as to buy STM out of spite? cos thats all it would be.
If nVidia bought STM, it wouldnt make the slightest bit of difference to PowerVR.
It would make no sense for nVidia to buy STM anyway, so I wouldnt bother even going down that road.
Nvidia would have to win allot of lotteries to enable them to buy STM (STM dwarf Nvidia in terms of revenue).. but obviously they could afford STM's graphics division. I agree with you though, it would make no sense for Nvidia to buy ST's graphics division.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Teasy on 2002-02-08 17:32 ]</font>
Musivarius
08-Feb-2002, 16:30
What is the viability for a management buy-out of the STM division?
RobTuck
08-Feb-2002, 16:36
"Nvidia would have to win allot of lotteries to enable them to buy STM"
Its just easier to write STM than "ST's Graphics Division" every time :smile:
Reverend
08-Feb-2002, 16:36
PVR is nothing w/o a manuf partner. STM was that (and the only one). My comment was simply one borne out of knowing what this cut-throat industry is. And many folks who are employees in this industry take this really personally.
I'm just wondering out aloud, that's all.
Hey, would K and Simon join NV? :smile:
Dave Baumann
08-Feb-2002, 16:39
Hey, would K and Simon join NV?
NV already have the Wolfman demo - they don't need a real hairy beast! :wink:
Joe DeFuria
08-Feb-2002, 16:43
Ok People,
I guess it's going to be up to us.
My wife and I have been saving money for a house, but WTF! :wink: If a few of us here pool our money, WE can buy STM's graphics division, and then once and for all put a "high-end" PowerVR chip on the drawing board!
Who's with me!
Musivarius
08-Feb-2002, 16:45
Teasy might be... :wink:
RobTuck
08-Feb-2002, 16:45
I have some lint I could donate
PVR_Extremist
08-Feb-2002, 16:47
"I'd buy that for a dollar"
LOL
:grin:
Reverend
08-Feb-2002, 16:48
"high end" PowerVR "chip" is already on the drawing board... PVR just needs to execute.
If it means I deffinately won't have to eat any part of my own body then I'll put ÂŁ1000 ($1500) towards buying STM's graphics division :smile:, thats all I can afford though.
"high end" PowerVR "chip" is already on the drawing board... PVR just needs to execute.
You mean a high end PowerVR chip is already on the drawing board and STM just need to execute.. STM are the guys that make the designs into chips (of course they won't be executing now).
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Teasy on 2002-02-08 17:51 ]</font>
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Teasy on 2002-02-08 17:53 ]</font>
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Dave Baumann
08-Feb-2002, 16:49
Wow - its amazing how even the so called 'News sites' get it wrong:
http://www.siliconstrategies.com/story/OEG20020208S0016
"For several years, STMicroelectronics has been going up against larger graphics chip suppliers, such as Nvidia Corp. and ATI Technologies Inc. Three years ago, the company acquired U.K.-based Imagination Technologies Group, formerly called VideoLogic Group, to strengthen its three-dimensional graphics and video acceleration product offering"
Do you think IMG knew they were owned by STM!! :wink:
I will sell my Mercedes to see a high end edram PowerVR :wink:
Joe DeFuria
08-Feb-2002, 16:54
"high end" PowerVR "chip" is already on the drawing board... PVR just needs to execute.
Clarification needed here Rev!
Is this "high-end" in Today's standard, due out for release in 1 year, and then delayed another 12 months? :wink:
Reverend
08-Feb-2002, 16:55
On 2002-02-08 17:51, pascal wrote:
I will sell my Mercedes to see a high end edram PowerVR :wink:
See what I mean about how passionate this can get...
Oh well, since we're in the mood for nonsense, I'll sell my wife to see a 400MHz DX8 PVR chip.
Hehe...
Reverend
08-Feb-2002, 17:00
On 2002-02-08 17:54, Joe DeFuria wrote:
[quote]
Clarification needed here Rev!
Is this "high-end" in Today's standard, due out for release in 1 year, and then delayed another 12 months? :wink:What's today's "standard"?
As far as I'm concerned, I only want a PS and VS 1.1 chip that can run as fast as however many shader effects I want plus 4xOGSS in a single level in a game.
Hellbinder
08-Feb-2002, 17:03
Who said anything about Nvidia buying STM???
STM is SELLING off ImagineTech.
IMO Nvidia would be very interested in what they have to offer. So would ATi, S3graphics Etc...
And yes I made a mental error about SEGA. IT was NEC. OOPS.
Who said anything about Nvidia buying STM???
STM is SELLING off ImagineTech.
How do you suggest they sell something that they don't own?
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Teasy on 2002-02-08 18:10 ]</font>
RobTuck
08-Feb-2002, 17:09
What the?
STM arent selling ImgTec you divot.
STM dont even own ImgTec!
Kristof
08-Feb-2002, 17:10
STM is SELLING off ImagineTech
No they are NOT, they can not sell what they do not own in the first place. ST holds a license to use PowerVR Series Technology in the PC market segment. They do not own the IP or the technology, they just have the permission to use the technology.
The only thing for sale is the ST PC Graphics Products Division (GPD) (www.st.com and kyro.st.com). Not Imagination Technologies (www.imgtec.com) or its PowerVR division (www.powervr.com and http://www.pvrdev.com).
K-
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kristof on 2002-02-08 18:13 ]</font>
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kristof on 2002-02-08 18:15 ]</font>
RobTuck
08-Feb-2002, 17:12
See, you wait long enough and Kristof will make it all make sense :razz:
EDIT: Kristof edited his post and so mine now makes no sense anymore :smile:
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Teasy on 2002-02-08 18:15 ]</font>
KingRoLo
08-Feb-2002, 17:16
This has to be one of the funniest threads ive read in a long time. Nice to see you tech heads lightning up once in a while :smile:
JOE! Stop Teasing Teasy! :smile:
RoLo
Kristof
08-Feb-2002, 17:17
On 2002-02-08 18:14, Teasy wrote:
EDIT: Kristof edited his post and so mine now makes no sense anymore :smile:
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Teasy on 2002-02-08 18:15 ]</font>
Yeah I pressed ENTER at the wrong time so I got an empty message posted.
K-
Musivarius
08-Feb-2002, 17:37
On 2002-02-08 18:17, Kristof wrote:
Yeah I pressed ENTER at the wrong time so I got an empty message posted.
K-
I thought it was a picture of how Teasy's you-know-what might look like in the future... :wink:
I thought it was a picture of how Teasy's you-know-what might look like in the future.
What?.. blue, flat and made entirely of pixels?
Hellbinder
08-Feb-2002, 18:02
WELL. Thats great news and im glad i had it all wrong.
This really is not that big of a deal then. There are many other possible licencees.
I made a big deal out of it because Thats the "gist" I got from reading posts about it on various forums. My bad.
At most this will only delay their next card.
[reverend]
That seems to be a common theme when cutting IT some slack. Everyone knows what todays "standards" are. They are not open for personal interpretation. Standards are what 90% of the industry expects, developers, vendors and consumers.
That is why STM only made 15 Million. Release a product that meets todays *understood* standards and that number will doubble or tripple the first year.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Hellbinder[CE] on 2002-02-08 19:05 ]</font>
LeStoffer
08-Feb-2002, 18:02
:rollseyes:
Anyway, back on topic: Can anyone explain to me how the hell the transition from STM to Cpmpany X could be so smooth that we'll have a nice working Kyro III with solid drivers and support on the market by fall? Does people think that the whole STM-staff just move in a new office over night and work on with a few hours delay?
Tsk, tsk, tsk folks!
Regards, LeStoffer
On 2002-02-08 18:00, Reverend wrote:
As far as I'm concerned, I only want a PS and VS 1.1 chip that can run as fast as however many shader effects I want plus 4xOGSS in a single level in a game.
I sure hope you ment 4xRGSS :smile:
Anyway, back on topic: Can anyone explain to me how the hell the transition from STM to Cpmpany X could be so smooth that we'll have a nice working Kyro III with solid drivers and support on the market by fall?
Well STM don't deal with drivers (IMGTEC do) so this won't effect drivers in any way AFAICS. Secondly Kyro III AFAIK is more or less finished and just needs the 0.13 micron process. So why wouldn't a new company be able to take control of the division and put Kyro III on 0.13 micron by fall? (which is September right?). It'd be the same technicians dealing with Kyro III, just under a new management. Surely it wouldn't take the new management that long to get everything up and running again? Also if Kyro III was being held back by waiting for 0.13 micron then changing management might not even slow down Kyro III at all. In fact if Kyro III was being held back by a lack of ambition from STM (not putting much priority into making it) then a new company taking charge could actually speed up Kyro III's release. I'm not saying that IMO this is a good thing (STM selling its GD) but one thing is for sure, its not necessarily a bad thing. It could even be a very good thing, and it doesn't have to mean that Kyro III will be delayed. It all depends on who takes over and what state Kyro III is in currently.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Teasy on 2002-02-08 19:28 ]</font>
LeStoffer
08-Feb-2002, 18:30
On 2002-02-08 19:20, Teasy wrote:
Well STM don't deal with drivers (IMGTEC do) so this won't effect drivers in any way AFAICS. Secondly Kyro III AFAIK is more or less finished and just needs the 0.13 micron process. ... It'd be the same technicians dealing with Kyro III, just under a new management.
Okay, I didn't know that the drivers was done by ImgTec (a very important point). But we don't know whether it'd be the same technicians: Maybe they wont move, maybe they get others job offer a STM etc. Sure we can keep on hoping but my gut feeling just tells me that we'll have a delay which will shift the competition out of Kyro IIIs favor.
Regards, LeStoffer
Dave Baumann
08-Feb-2002, 18:31
Can anyone explain to me how the hell the transition from STM to Cpmpany X could be so smooth that we'll have a nice working Kyro III with solid drivers and support on the market by fall? Does people think that the whole STM-staff just move in a new office over night and work on with a few hours delay?
A purchaser of a grpahics business will want the staff - relocating will mean you are more than likely too loose many. A buyer would more than likely keep them in the same location, even the same office where possible IMO.
Driver development is undertaken by PowerVR anyway so that wouldn't be affected if any buyer is going to continue to make PowerVR products based on PowerVR designs.
zborgerd
08-Feb-2002, 18:35
I really don't see how a fall release can be all the beneficial for PVR and the "Kyro 3." Perhaps they can hold things over for a while with another stepped-up Kyro 2, but I don't think that it will work for long.
Besides... By the time "Kyro 3" would roll out in the fall, the nVidia GeForce 5 would be pretty close to making it's way out the door in the winter. I have hope in the PowerVR technology, but I have never dreamed that IMG would be that ambitious that their chips were that powerful. I was kinda thinking that they would aim for a product to take on nVidia's performance line, not the value line. I wouldn't have a problem paying $150-$200 for a PowerVR card if it would top everything on nVidia's current list. I just don't see that happening if they keep delaying the release of their products. PowerVR development is just too slow. We all know that the Kyro 2 can keep up with the GeForce 2 line of cards, but will Kyro 3 be ready to tackle the GeForce 4 or even GeForce 5?
I don't care about competition, but all of the businesses have to remain competitive, and I just don't see Imagination being aggressive enough. Maybe that is the trick to their success, but they sure do give everyone a lot of doubts. Heck; a lot of people are starting to speculate weather or not there will even be a Kyro 3. This has been happening even before the arrival of this recent news.
Here's hoping for a new PVR product soon, and many more after that. I, however, am getting doubtful that we will see anything soon.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: zborgerd on 2002-02-08 19:38 ]</font>
Johnny Rotten
08-Feb-2002, 18:40
On 2002-02-08 19:20, Teasy wrote:
Secondly Kyro III AFAIK is more or less finished and just needs the 0.13 micron process.
Have they even sampled on .13? If not then they arent even 'more or less' finished.
Personally, even assuming STM found a buyer tommorrow, I'd be stunned if a brand new partner brought out the 'Kyro3' in 7 months.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Johnny Rotten on 2002-02-08 19:44 ]</font>
Musivarius
08-Feb-2002, 18:43
If a fabless company buys STM's GD then how would fab access work for 'Kyro 3'?
STM own a stake in TSMC(?) so they probably have some say over when they can get stuff done but a smaller independent company might not have the same priority or might have to pay to get it.
Would there have to be some kind of guarantees by STM that the new owner would get some of STM's fab time?
Question is, can anyone afford to bring KyroIII to market and still compete with GF4-MX on price?
How long does it take for a design to go from tape out to test silicon? If STM had been thinking about this for a while its not unthinkable work was just stopped shy of having the first masks made.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: MfA on 2002-02-08 19:59 ]</font>
Joe DeFuria
08-Feb-2002, 18:54
Hi Rev,
As far as I'm concerned, I only want a PS and VS 1.1 chip that can run as fast as however many shader effects I want plus 4xOGSS in a single level in a game.
That's a decent target to shoot for. My question is, did/does IMG / Whoever plan to have such a PowerVR chip on the market before or at the very latest, at the same time as some competitor does, and a lower price point?
Joe DeFuria
08-Feb-2002, 19:02
Question is, can anyone afford to bring KyroIII to market and still compete with GF4-MX on price?
Not just GF-4MX, but Radeon 7x00 and 8x00 series. There are a lot of "very capable" cards right now in the sub $200 price range, and the competition is only going to get more fierce within a year when these value and mainstream parts move to the same 0.13 process that Kryo-III is suppossedly targeted for.
It's really frustrating (speaking as someone who would like to see PowerVR tech be exploited.) Lots of PowerVR "fans" like to say that IMG and its parteners haven't been given their due credit. On the contrary, I don't think IMG and its partners are giving the competition enough credit, as they seem to consistently underestimate the market.
On a related note:
I can see the writing on the wall now:
"Venture Capitalists fund BitBoys Purchase of STM Graphics Division. BitBoys "cans" their current XBA architecture and starts development on a new product integrating XBA and PowerVR tech. First products expected 'soon.'"
I really don't see how a fall release can be all the beneficial for PVR and the "Kyro 3." Perhaps they can hold things over for a while with another stepped-up Kyro 2, but I don't think that it will work for long.
Don't take that as an actual date of release, thats just was a few people around here have guessed at. When I said I don't see why they shouldn't be able to change management and still get Kyro III out by fall I didn't mean that I didn't think tey couldn't get it out earlier, I was just answering the question from someone about if the new company could get Kyro III out by fall or not.
I have hope in the PowerVR technology, but I have never dreamed that IMG would be that ambitious that their chips were that powerful. I was kinda thinking that they would aim for a product to take on nVidia's performance line, not the value line. I wouldn't have a problem paying $150-$200 for a PowerVR card if it would top everything on nVidia's current list. I just don't see that happening if they keep delaying the release of their products. PowerVR development is just too slow
Why do you assume that PowerVR Technologies development team is slow? PowerVR Series 4 (which Kyro III is based on) has been finished for a while now and AFAIK there already working on PowerVR Series 5. Also IMGTEC do not dictate how high end the final chip will be, that decision is made by STM. So if anything it looks like STM are lacking in ambition and not Imagination Technologies.
Have they even sampled on .13? If not then they arent even 'more or less' finished.
I don't know but what's to stop them putting Kyro III on a process they already have access too in order to get all the bugs out and work on drivers (probably running it at a lower clock speed) and then move to 0.13 and bump up the clock speed?.. couldn't this reduce the time between getting 0.13 micron and getting the product out of the door?
Personally, even assuming STM found a buyer tommorrow, I'd be stunned if a brand new partner brought out the 'Kyro3' in 7 months.
Why would that stun you?.. do you know how far a long the Kyro III is right now? How do you know its not almost finished? What if as I said they already had the chip running on a bigger process before 0.13 micron was available and so got a good head start on debuging and drivers. As I said I don't know if STM have had Kyro III on 0.13 yet and neither do you.. its very possible.
Why would it take the same team of technicians under new management (so possibly they'd even add staff to speed this up) 7 months or more to finish the chip if they already have the chip either on a bigger process and ready to move to 0.13 or already on 0.13?
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Teasy on 2002-02-08 20:30 ]</font>
Joe thats a good point, though chips made on an advanced process dont necessarily have to be expensive ... of course you'd have to question the sanity of a company who would target a product which could have been easily produced right now at early production runs of .13u when they desperately needed competetive products on the market.
So either the KyroIII is to far surpass the MX or its a very inefficient design to need .13u ... or STM were incompetent, or what?
Teasy, TSMC has been doing .13u runs for quite a while already even if they arent in full production.
Marco
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: MfA on 2002-02-08 20:17 ]</font>
"Venture Capitalists fund BitBoys Purchase of STM Graphics Division. BitBoys "cans" their current XBA architecture and starts development on a new product integrating XBA and PowerVR tech. First products expected 'soon.'"
LOL, I don't even think thats allowed within the licence agreement (to mix PowerVR tech with other tech).
So either the KyroIII is to far surpass the MX or its a very inefficient design to need .13u
Or it'll far surpass the GF4MX in performance and be quite a bit cheaper (because of the smaller process).
Joe DeFuria
08-Feb-2002, 19:26
Why do you assume that PowerVR Technologies development team is slow?
To be clear, he didn't say that PowerVR Technologies development team is slow. He said PowerVR Development is slow.
I think you have some personal connection to IMG-Tech, and try to defend them at all costs...even when they aren't being directly attacked. :wink:
I think his point "PowerVR Development is slow" is valid. How many PowerVR PC chips have shipped in the past 3 years, relative to the competition?
PowerVR Series 4 (which Kyro III is based on) has been finished for a while now and AFAIK there already working on PowerVR Series 5. Also IMGTEC do not dictate how high end the final chip will be, that decision is made by STM. So if anything it looks like STM are lacking in ambition and not Imagination Technologies.
You have to learn to separate the difference between IMG-Tech being "done" with a design, and a final "chip" being "finished" by IMG's partner. If Series4 was "done" in the sense that matters, it would be on the shelf. It doesn't matter if IMG-Tech "speced" out deisgns up to PowerVR 10. When the partner takes these specs and puts them into silicon, thats "make it or break it" time.
This all relates back to the licensing model that PowerVR has. The model has its advantages, but IMO, in the PC Space, there seems to be too great a disadvantage to make it viable. I think the "disconnect" between the engineers doing the tech R&D, and the engineers designing the chips, ends up creating too much overhead.
It's also possible that the tech is simply too complicated to be expected to be put on the same sort of 6-9 month cycle of traditional renderers.
Joe DeFuria
08-Feb-2002, 19:32
Or it'll far surpass the GF4MX in performance and be quite a bit cheaper (because of the smaller process).
Actually, my original point was, that by the time KyroIII would hit the market at 0.13...what's to stop nVidia from moving their GF-4 MX to 0.13 as well...reducing their own costs (and possibly upping the performance a bit at the same time)? nVidia, does in fact have a history of migrating their parts (Including the GeForce2 MX line) to reap the benefits of economies of scale.
To be clear, he didn't say that PowerVR Technologies development team is slow. He said PowerVR Development is slow.
Ok, I thought by PowerVR Development he meant the development of the actual technology (which is what PowerVR is) and not the chips themselves, which is a easy assumption to make.
I think you have some personal connection to IMG-Tech, and try to defend them at all costs...even when they aren't being directly attacked.
AFAIK (thats knew not know) they were being directly attacked as I explained above, I do no defend anyt attack, I defend against an attack when I think someone is wrong in there attack.
I think his point "PowerVR Development is slow" is valid. How many PowerVR PC chips have shipped in the past 3 years, relative to the competition?
PowerVR is the technology not the chip based on that technology, and its development is no inherently slow. The fact that within the last 3 years only 3 PowerVR graphics cards have been released in the PC space (4 with 4800) does not necasarilly point to slow developement. How many cards are released and when there released rely's on whichever company is using the PowerVR tech to make a product.
You have to learn to separate the difference between IMG-Tech being "done" with a design, and a final "chip" being "finished" by IMG's partner
Actually you have to learn the difference between PowerVR (the technology designed by IMGTEC) and the card made by IMGTEC's partner thats based on that PowerVR tech. PowerVR development to me means the development of PowerVR (which is the design itself). My point in that comment was that IMGTEC are not slow at developing PowerVR tech, the release of products is up to NEC, STM or whichever company is making the product based on PowerVR tech.
If Series4 was "done" in the sense that matters, it would be on the shelf. It doesn't matter if IMG-Tech "speced" out deisgns up to PowerVR 10. When the partner takes these specs and puts them into silicon, thats "make it or break it" time.
Thats all very true Joe but its irrelivent to my comment :smile:
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Teasy on 2002-02-08 21:03 ]</font>
Johnny Rotten
08-Feb-2002, 20:04
I don't know but what's to stop them putting Kyro III on a process they already have access too in order to get all the bugs out and work on drivers (probably running it at a lower clock speed) and then move to 0.13 and bump up the clock speed?.. couldn't this reduce the time between getting 0.13 micron and getting the product out of the door?
Somewhat. But I think you underestimate the impact that a given process has on a given chip designs fabrication.
Why would that stun you?.. do you know how far a long the Kyro III is right now? How do you know its not almost finished? What if as I said they already had the chip running on a bigger process before 0.13 micron was available and so got a good head start on debuging and drivers. As I said I don't know if STM have had Kyro III on 0.13 yet and neither do you.. its very possible.
Why would it take the same team of technicians under new management (so possibly they'd even add staff to speed this up) 7 months or more to finish the chip if they already have the chip either on a bigger process and ready to move to 0.13 or already on 0.13?
Again, I just think you're underestimating the total time investment required for a large scale transition like this.
Again, I just think you're underestimating the total time investment required for a large scale transition like this.
Maybe, but I hope not :smile:
Joe DeFuria
08-Feb-2002, 20:22
PowerVR is the technology not the chip based on that technology, and its development is no inherently slow.
The bottom line (what the original poster was getting at), is this:
The development and subsequent release of products based on PowerVR Technology is slow, relative to the rest of the industry.
I hope that satisfies and is agreeable to everyone. :wink:
Nobody cares how slow or fast "PowerVR Technology" is developed. What matters is how slow/fast products based on that technology can be brought to market.
How many cards are released and when there released rely's on whichever company is using the PowerVR tech to make a product.
I disagree. It relies on a combination of both IMG-Tech and the chip-maker. If IMG-Tech supplies them with a "design" that effectively requires 0.13 microns to implement, but 0.13 isn't available, then that's not enitrely in the hands of the chip maker.
My point in that comment was that IMGTEC are not slow at developing PowerVR tech, the release of products is up to NEC, STM or whichever company is making the product based on PowerVR tech.
My point is that nobody cares how "slow or fast" IMG are at "developing" IMG tech. What matters is how long it takes to get finished products to market. Now, if STM can't fab the new chips that IMG always has "waiting for them" because IMG is so fast, then what's the problem?
It could be a few things:
1) IMGs "designs" as they are "handed" to STM require a significant feed-back and tweaking and further engineering before they are brought to the level of "production ready design."
2) STM sucks at implementaion.
I'm willing to go with number 1. Basically, I don't think IMG just "hands-over" a design and says "here you go...call us when you want the PowerVR 5 design." It's likely a continuous relationship, so that the "actual" IMG "design" isn't really ever finished until the chip is in production.
Thats all very true Joe but its irrelivent to my comment
Heh...we can go on and on here, because I think your comment was irrelevant to the original point of "PowerVR Development" being slow. :wink: I don't think he meant "IMG's role in PowerVR technology development." I'm pretty sure he meant, "how long it takes to get new products out the door", which is what is important / relevant.
(But then, maybe zborgered will qualify what he meant...)
Anyway, there has to be SOME reason why there have only been 3 chips in the last 3 years....IMO, It's either the tech is too difficult to engineer more rapidly, or the business model that IMG-Tech uses doesn't work in the fast-paced PC market. (Or a combination of both.) The only other alternative is that the engineers (be they PowerVR or STM) are sub-par in terms of execution.
deviantchild
08-Feb-2002, 20:50
i can't go through all the posts here to see if somebody has already said this
i saw earlier in the thread some ppl saying along the lines of "how come the graphics div. were dropped if STM were doing well? - was it in some way down to IMG/PVR themselves"
STM weren't doing well - being so big, they were hit more than most by the general slump in the chip industry last year:- http://www.pvr-net.com/cgibin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?s=3c642d2d4597ffff;act=ST;f=2;t=71;h l=bbc+gmt
it was a just matter of time before they started restructuring - and PVR/IMG's business was smallfry and got caught up in it
edit: there is a link on that page to the story - but you can only get to it now if you are a cbs marketwatch member
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: deviantchild on 2002-02-08 21:58 ]</font>
The development and subsequent release of products based on PowerVR Technology is slow, relative to the rest of the industry..
If the original poster had said something like that then I wouldn't have argued. But he didn't, he said "PowerVR Development is slow", you took it that he meant "The development and subsequent release of products based on PowerVR Technology is slow, relative to the rest of the industry." And I took it that he was blaming the speed of the development of the technology that is PowerVR for the lack of cards, thats why I asked why he was assuming that any slowness in releasing boards was down to the speed of the design time. If your correct in your reading of what he said, then fine I wouldn't have argued with that.
I disagree. It relies on a combination of both IMG-Tech and the chip-maker. If IMG-Tech supplies them with a "design" that effectively requires 0.13 microns to implement, but 0.13 isn't available, then that's not enitrely in the hands of the chip maker.
STM decide what process the design goes onto, what performance it will have and what cost they want it to end up at. The design is unlikely to be anything over 25 million transistors (assuming it doesn't have DX8 pixel/vertex shaders, which is a pretty safe assumption) so I can't see it needing 0.13 micron to actually make the chip. It may just need 0.13 micron to be at the pricepoint STM want it at.
My point is that nobody cares how "slow or fast" IMG are at "developing" IMG tech. What matters is how long it takes to get finished products to market.
And as I've said I don't disgree with you there but thats irrelivent to the comment your replying to. Because my comment was based on the assumption (a pretty fair assumption considering the wording) that the poster was blaming the speed of design on a lack of cards. If he wasn't saying that then I do not disagree with him.
Now, if STM can't fab the new chips that IMG always has "waiting for them" because IMG is so fast, then what's the problem?
Its not necasarilly that they can't keep up, its more that they don't want too IMO.
1) IMGs "designs" as they are "handed" to STM require a significant feed-back and tweaking and further engineering before they are brought to the level of "production ready design."
2) STM sucks at implementaion.
Add a third: ST don't want to put a high priority and lots of technicians on getting PowerVR designs out ASAP, they just want a nice little card that can sell quite well but without actually having to put much money or effort in (which they would have to do at the highend).
Heh...we can go on and on here, because I think your comment was irrelevant to the original point of "PowerVR Development" being slow.
That depends on what the guy actually meant, if he meant what you think he meant then my comment was irrelivent, but then if I'd known he was saying what you think he was saying I wouldn't have argued with him :smile:
Anyway, there has to be SOME reason why there have only been 3 chips in the last 3 years....IMO, It's either the tech is too difficult to engineer more rapidly, or the business model that IMG-Tech uses doesn't work in the fast-paced PC market. (Or a combination of both.) The only other alternative is that the engineers (be they PowerVR or STM) are sub-par in terms of execution.
Your assuming that everyone wants to hit the highend, and if they don't then either there tech isn't good enough or they can't make it fast enough. IMO STM wanted a nice little product that didn't cost them much to make and could sell well in the high volume market and be a nice little eanrer. If that had happened then they probably would have continued with the same thing, a nice little product thats cheap and makes them some extra cash.
They got exactly that with PowerVR 3 IMO. The problem was STM misjudged the market, they brought out Kyro at 115mhz and it wasn't fast enough. By the time they'd moved to Kyro II they did well but nowhere near as well as if they'd just made the original as fast as Kyro II. In other words instead of taking PowerVR Series 3 and using there own fabs at 0.25 micron and getting a 115mhz Kyro they should have went straight to TSMC and 0.18 and released it at 175mhz back when Kyro was originally released. If they'd done that they would have gotten the success they wanted (more like 3+ million sold rather then 1.2-1.3 million sold).
So IMO this is all more about the ambition of STM and what the company wanted to achieve in the graphics card market rather then the actual ability of the engeneers at either company or the quality of the technology itself.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Teasy on 2002-02-08 22:19 ]</font>
Hellbinder
08-Feb-2002, 21:19
people can debate the nit picky defenitions of slow development all day long. The Bottom line will ALWAYS be products to market. I can draw up pretty chip designs that smoke everyone all day long for the next 10 years. Guess what. It means exactly ZERO. Nadda, Nothing.
The truth is Since the Neon 250 design IT has offered nothing even close to turning the heads of the majority of the community. Had IT been able to launch the Neon 250 on time the entire Graphics market would look very different today. That card would have been the performance and features leader in a landslide. Setting up IT/PowerVR as the Go-to market leader. Nvidia may have never even gotten off the ground. IT would be a development cycle ahead of everyone else, and the sky is teh limit. Instead the Emphasis was placed on SEGA. A deal that became fruitless in only 24 months.
Now as Far as execution to market is concerned IT is far behind the eightball. On top of that they need a Via, Sony, or other big boy to pick up the ball and score a touchdown. What they need is for someone with oodles and oodles of resources who WANTS to dominate the graphics market ro come in and partner with them.
dksuiko
08-Feb-2002, 21:20
As disappointing as this may be, was it really a shock to anybody? It certainly wasn't to me.
STM has not taken any big steps since Early-Mid 2000 with the first Kyro. Unless you've bought into the Kyro III rumors, there was nothing to lead us to believe that it was actually coming. They weren't exactly known for rapid releases. The fact that STM never aimed at the high-end market didn't help matters either. Nor did the Kyro 4800.
We can talk for days about how ImgTec's technology was ready and done (Not that I even believe that one), but none of that matters when they aren't going to come to the market. Other than those who have to place their penis in a hotdog bun, who was really surprised by this announcement?
-dksuiko
What's the possibility of NEC itself retaking its former position and manufacturing the PVR chips again? I'm sure they have the capabilities to do it, IMG just needs to get the ball rolling again.
Sonic
Joe DeFuria
08-Feb-2002, 21:43
IMO STM wanted a nice little product that didn't cost them much to make and could sell well in the high volume market and be a nice little eanrer.
If we run with your theory, then the question needs to be asked, why? If the PowerVR technology is in fact such an 'advantage' compared to everyone else's tech why would any company want a "nice little product", then they should be able to dominate the industry, or at least make a large enough dent to reap considerable profits.
I've never known a company to just want to make a "little cash" if the product has inherently that much potential.
They got exactly that with PowerVR 3 IMO. The problem was STM misjudged the market, they brought out Kyro at 115mhz and it wasn't fast enough. By the time they'd moved to Kyro II they did well but nowhere near as well as if they'd just made the original as fast as Kyro II.
Well, you talk as if STM had a choice. That given a price target and timing target, STM could have just "brought out" the KyroI with Kyro II specs.
Personally, I think it was less "underestimation" of the market, and more "lack of execution." It's not that they should have "designed KyroI to have Kyro II specs", they should have been able to get both Kyro I and KyroII out earlier.
So IMO this is all more about the ambition of STM and what the company wanted to achieve in the graphics card market rather then the actual ability of the engeneers at either company or the quality of the technology itself.
Well, IMO you can't separate the two. In other words, IF the quality of the technology was really a cut above, then STM would have more incentive to make more of the product line, and be "more ambitious" with it. So, IMO, the reason for "lack of ambition" is because of something lacking in PowerVR (either the Technology itself, or the business structure around it), relative to the rest of the market.
people can debate the nit picky defenitions of slow development all day long. The Bottom line will ALWAYS be products to market.
I don't think anyone disagree's with you there, once again I was replying to someone who I assumed was blaming the lack of cards on slow design, so I asked him why he thought design was the problem.
The truth is Since the Neon 250 design IT has offered nothing even close to turning the heads of the majority of the community.
The truth is no'one has brought an IT design to the table that's turned the heads of the majority of the graphics card community. Your mistaking what STM or NEC bring out in hardware with what IT can design if required by someone like NEC or STM.. of course IT haven't brought anything to the table, thats not there business.
Had IT been able to launch the Neon 250 on time the entire Graphics market would look very different today
Once again I hate to have to keep making the distinction between IT and the company that actually makes the chip and decides on features, speed, cost, and market but I think its a important distinction, IT were not late with there design for Neon 250 and they didn't decide when to bring it to the PC market because it wasn't there product, it was simply based on there design.. NEC decided to make the Dreamcast a priority.
Instead the Emphasis was placed on SEGA. A deal that became fruitless in only 24 months.
I doubt that was fruitless for IMGTEC, NEC sold around 13+ million chips to sega (Dreamcast + Naomi 1 and II), would they have sold 13 million Neon 250's?.. maybe, maybe not.
On top of that they need a Via, Sony, or other big boy to pick up the ball and score a touchdown. What they need is for someone with oodles and oodles of resources who WANTS to dominate the graphics market ro come in and partner with them
Now I do agree with that 100%, if IT were partnerd with a company that wanted to challenge Nvidia and ATI in the PC graphics market they could do very well IMO.
Roger Kohli
08-Feb-2002, 22:23
STG4800 its official!
Just got this mail from Hercules PR Department, good news for Hercules owners:
In response to STMicroelectronics' recent announcement to divest its graphics chipset manufacturing interests, we wanted to assure you that Hercules remains strong and committed to bringing you only the best in graphics technology.Hercules 4000 and 4500 series cards will continue to be available to you and your customers as we have secured ample inventory to fulfill everyone's needs. For the future, we will work with selected vendors in developing and marketing advanced, quality Hercules branded products.Our commitment to offering the very best support to our customers, and your customers remains a priority by providing updated drivers, installation, configuration and field application support, as well as phone and online support personnel.Finally, in the coming months we will aggressively move to position our 4000 and 4500 series cards as industry leaders, and reinforce that with the addition of the much anticipated 3D Prophet 4800, thus ensuring the longevity of our '4' series products.
http://www.3dspotlight.com/
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Roger Kohli on 2002-02-08 23:25 ]</font>
As disappointing as this may be, was it really a shock to anybody? It certainly wasn't to me.
STM has not taken any big steps since Early-Mid 2000 with the first Kyro. Unless you've bought into the Kyro III rumors, there was nothing to lead us to believe that it was actually coming.
It was/is coming, thats not a wild guess either. The fact that STM were always interested in very low end priced boards doesn't mean they would decide to leave the graphics industy does it. You say there was nothing to make anyone think they wouldn't do this and so it wasn't a shock.. well, they licenced both PowerVR 4 and 5 so I'd say that was an indication that they weren't going to suddenly leave the industry, obviously something changed there mind though. So yes of course STM leaving was (or should have been given the facts) a suprise to everyone.
. Other than those who have to place their penis in a hotdog bun, who was really surprised by this announcement?
As I said Joe aint won yet :smile: As far as people being suprised, why wouldn't they be? If Kyro III had been late then you could say that might not have been a suprise to some people, but for STM to sell their graphics division and drop out is a suprise considering they were in advanced development with Kyro III and had already licenced PowerVR 5.
What's the possibility of NEC itself retaking its former position and manufacturing the PVR chips again? I'm sure they have the capabilities to do it, IMG just needs to get the ball rolling again.
Possibly, hopefully someone with a bit more ambition in the PC market will come in though, unless they now have more ambition of course.
Well, you talk as if STM had a choice. That given a price target and timing target, STM could have just "brought out" the KyroI with Kyro II specs.
Why wouldn't they have been able too?, 0.18 micron had been available for a while and would have made Kyro II cheaper then the original Kyro (15 million transistors on a 0.18 micron process rather then 12 million on a 0.25 process).
Well, IMO you can't separate the two. In other words, IF the quality of the technology was really a cut above, then STM would have more incentive to make more of the product line, and be "more ambitious" with it
Not everyone wants to go all out in a market, it doesn't matter if a tech has great potential if the company doesn't want to put a load of money into that and risk being up there with the big boys in that industry, its all about ambition. Its like a football player (my sort of football not U.S stylee :smile:) who gets a great pass and is suddenly one on one with the last defender. In your opinion every player will take on the last defender and shoot, but actually a less ambitious player will look to make a pass to keep the move going. Its less glorious but it keeps your team going forward and there's far less risk of losing the ball to the other team.
So, IMO, the reason for "lack of ambition" is because of something lacking in PowerVR (either the Technology itself, or the business structure around it), relative to the rest of the market.
Ok thats your opinion, fine, I just don't agree with you :smile:
STG4800 its official!
I hope Videologic make a board based on this chip, Hercules never send me review boards :smile:
Just saw this at Paraknowya:
"OK, I want to say that http://www.clubic.com (French site) contacted Hercules about the Kyro problem.
Hercules answered that they are still confident in their Kyro line of cards and that they won't stop anything. More, they will continue with the one that "could buy what STM sells". Clubic said that Hercules know far more than we do about this strange thing.
You can read between the lines of course but I’ll let you do this.
Frankly, I'm pretty sure Hercules already knows who will take the thing further."
Sounds to me like Hercules knowns who will buy STM's graphics division, knows they will continue making PowerVR chips, and are happy to keep putting those chips in Hercules boards. Hopefully this is the case!
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Teasy on 2002-02-09 00:14 ]</font>
bystander
08-Feb-2002, 23:16
Let me understand this.
STM controls or did control, the manufacture of PVR chips. They decide what types of chips to make, (i.e. low, or high end, etc.).
ImgTec develops and designs PVR-Tech, which STM uses as it sees fit.
So ImgTec designs a high-end chip and STM decided to only make a low-end chip, only a low-end chip would get produced.
Is that a correct understanding of this relationship between ImgTec & STM?
Dave B(TotalVR)
08-Feb-2002, 23:54
Reverend said:
Oh well, since we're in the mood for nonsense, I'll sell my wife to see a 400MHz DX8 PVR chip.
Hehe...
Can we have some of her 'specs'?;)
Yes, it seems that's at least somewhat true bystander. It might be time for VL to really start ramping up and asking TSMC or UMC to manufacture the chips themselves. If people think that IMG don't have the capability to actually go back and make their own designs and what not, then they have another thing coming to them. I do think it's time IMG itself stepped up to the plate and offered cards to the consumer that truly are desirable to the rest of the market. They have the best 3d technology there is, why not force there way into the damn market? There's only room for them to grow from the looks of it. If only they had the will to compete and the want for such high success. Maybe SEGA can get another deal with IMG, because that darned Xbox arcade is looking obsolete really soon.
Sonic
Sonic: so who will do the layout then?
Automatic layout aint gonna work here.
From the above posts, i guess PVR supplies STM with VHDL on the register transfer level and STM does the layout and manufacturing.
MfA: any other comment on the issue? BTW Via does have good access to TSMC's flagship processes, even moreso than NV or ATI. (TSMC's final silicon for qualifying their 0,15um and 0.13um processes are Centaur's CPUs)
Entropy
09-Feb-2002, 02:34
Something which haven't been made clear is whether STM had an EXCLUSIVE liscense to manufacture the PVR4 and PVR5 designs.
This is important, because if that liscense wasn't exclusive, it implies that ImgTech haven't been able to attract the interest of anyone else. It would also imply that noone would be terribly likely to pick up STMs liscenses, because if anyone was interested, they would have done so already.
Firm info, anyone?
Entropy
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Entropy on 2002-02-09 03:37 ]</font>
Something which haven't been made clear is whether STM had an EXCLUSIVE liscense to manufacture the PVR4 and PVR5 designs.
Yeah I'm pretty sure its exclusive to STM (pretty sure means 99.9% sure).
Sounds to me like Hercules knowns who will buy STM's graphics division, knows they will continue making PowerVR chips, and are happy to keep putting those chips in Hercules boards. Hopefully this is the case!
I think they say the opposite:
"Hercules 4000 and 4500 series cards will continue to be available to you and your customers as we have secured ample inventory to fulfill everyone's needs"
In other words they have enough chips stored to ensure delivering cards in the next months. Someone who is sure about the future of Kyro chips production would never say a word about securing an ample inventory.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Shark on 2002-02-09 06:03 ]</font>
LeStoffer
09-Feb-2002, 08:49
Well, no mather what the longterm prospect is for the Kyro (III) this is one more reason not to delay my purchase of a new card (my Geforce DDR is over the hill, you know). I was hoping for a fast mid-priced Kyro III this spring. "Forget a'bout it!" Donnie Brasco-stile...
I'm sorry but right now my eyes are fixed firmly on the GF4 ti4600.
The only thing that could change this is a spring release of the ever elusive Matrox-part or an *early* summer release of ATI R300.
Regards, LeStoffer
bystander
09-Feb-2002, 11:11
Is it a exclusive licence?
http://www.powervr.com/Release.asp?ID=26
Kings Langley, England and Geneva, Switzerland, 26 June 2001 - Imagination Technologies Group (LSE: IMG), the leading provider of human computer interface intellectual property (IP), and STMicroelectronics (NYSE:STM), a world leading supplier of system-on-chip solutions, today announced that they have extended their successful partnership to include the development and manufacture of a range of high performance PC graphics and video accelerators based on PowerVR Series4 and Series5 technology designed by Imagination Technologies’ PowerVR Technologies division
AFIAK it just looks like a partnership to me. It doesn't say any about exclusive licences. Could someone clear this up, whether STM has the only licences to produce PVR series 4 and 5?
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: bystander on 2002-02-09 12:13 ]</font>
Dave Baumann
09-Feb-2002, 11:43
I actually asked Dave Harold at ECTS whether they were actively seeking any other licensee's for the desktop parts, and he said something olong the lines of "we're happy with ST, its safe to say we are not looking".
roninja
09-Feb-2002, 13:31
Well I personally think STM pulling out of the PC Graphics card business could be the making of IMG, they have all to often been the small partner to a very large company, and there for readily expendible, last year it was Sega... IMG need to either go it alone or go with a company that needs its technology and can use it aggresively, after all Kyro has an impressive price performance ratio, and the cards were award winning, but as been said many times, it is the high end which a card needs to be noticed. So what now for Kyro3, maybe Videologic should initially go it alone, then perhaps team up with Via to develop an integrated solution as they have often stated they desire to get into.
Fortunately for imagination tech, not all their eggs are in one basket, and it is comforting to see Hercules still backing the Kyro range.
king_iron_fist
09-Feb-2002, 14:00
So generally speaking we can expect to see the 4800 ultra at cebit as hercules already seem ready to manufacture it but the kyro III will be put on hold until a partner comes in who's got the drive to manufacture. However, if it doesn't get released until august/september then there will surely be better cards around for price/performance. Will powervr have to up the specs to allow for the extra downtime.
I think they say the opposite:
"Hercules 4000 and 4500 series cards will continue to be available to you and your customers as we have secured ample inventory to fulfill everyone's needs"
That was a different quote, it wasn't the one I was refering to. The one I was refering to was from an email to Clubic.com. As far as I can gather they basically said (basically as in not a great translation from French) "we will continue with the company that buys what STM sell".
So generally speaking we can expect to see the 4800 ultra at cebit as hercules already seem ready to manufacture it but the kyro III will be put on hold until a partner comes in who's got the drive to manufacture
Thats if STM aren't already negotiating with someone for their graphics division. For all we know they could have already found the company to take over were STM left off (which is a point thats strenghened by what Hercules have said), so Kyro III might not be put on hold at all.
king_iron_fist
09-Feb-2002, 16:00
However someone at paraknowya forums gave the cryptic clue that the card we've all been waiting for definitely won't be shown at cebit but a lesser one will be unveiled.
Methinks even if you look optimisticly the kyro III won't be out until at least june. I'm hoping I can get it before U2 comes out though :smile:
bystander
09-Feb-2002, 17:38
From Gamespot: BTW that's a great headline...
Kyro II nears end of the road
ST, the struggling semiconductor giant responsible for producing the Kyro and Kyro II, announces it's leaving the PC graphics business.
STMicroelectronics will withdraw from the PC graphics chip market, and is currently looking for a buyer for that part of its business, which produced and sold the Kyro and Kyro II graphics chips. Kyro II graphics cards were announced by ST and Hercules last spring and quickly gained some attention for providing a surprisingly high level of game performance at a low price point. The Kyro chips are based on an PowerVR's efficient tile-based architecture, which was also at the heart of the Dreamcast's graphics.
In North America, Hercules has been the primary producer of Kyro and Kyro II cards, which were marketed under the names 3D Prophet 4000 and 3D Prophet 4500. The company issued a statement assuring continuing supplies of the cards: "Hercules 4000 and 4500 series cards will continue to be available to you and your customers as we have secured ample inventory to fulfill everyone's needs. For the future, we will work with selected vendors in developing and marketing advanced, quality Hercules branded products."
Hercules went on to mention that there's an additional Kyro II product on the way, the 3D Prophet 4800, which would likely use stored- up supplies of the ST chip. We'll have information on this new card as it becomes available.
http://gamespot.com/gamespot/stories/news/0,10870,2846688,00.html
Geeforcer
09-Feb-2002, 17:54
Finally, in the coming months we will aggressively move to position our 4000 and 4500 series cards as industry leaders...
Am I the only one who can't see Hercules Kyro I and II cards becoming "industry leaders" in "coming months"?
roninja
09-Feb-2002, 20:24
For Hercules to make the 4000XT and 4500 brand leaders, they will have to have major OEMs onboard, and offer the cards at dirt chea prices, maybe thats what we'll see.
Now it looks highlikely we'll see Hossein Yassie eating Nvidia for lunch this year!! The so called much hyped Kyro3 strangled at birth.
Am I the only one who can't see Hercules Kyro I and II cards becoming "industry leaders" in "coming months"?
That's not a bad way of putting it....
Mephisto
09-Feb-2002, 22:09
http://uk.biz.yahoo.com/020208/80/crxoa.html
Chief Executive Hossein Yassaie said the sale could turn out to be positive because ST had not seen its PC Graphics division as a core business, and a purchaser would concentrate on it more fully, and generate more sales.
"If we get a major PC player on board, things would be positive," he said. "When, assuming, the deal goes through things could be reversed very quickly."
For me, it looks a bit like ST underestimated the task of fabbing 'complex' graphics chips. With their own process in their Malta fab, they didn't even get KYRO 1 up to specs. It seemed very odd to me when I read that KYRO II was fabbed at TSMC, one of their competitors!
Shame on ST. I'm quite disappointed by europeans biggest semiconductor company.
What do you think, can this all have to do with the fact that ST would not have been able to fab Series 4 and 5 in their own fabs?
Hellbinder
09-Feb-2002, 22:16
Honestly, other that Those who just want to support the PowerVR technology "no matter what", I cant see any reason to get a Kyro3 even in June (before Unreal 2 ships). (ok if its only 100$ thats a reason :grin: )
ATi is Pricing its parts pretty competatively, and offers High performance OEM products even cheaper. The R300 will offer 8 pixel pipelines and 4 vertes shaders. Combined with what will undoubtedly be Hyperz III. If they offer an OEM version for 199$ I just cant see any justification for a Kyro3 board at that time. It will be totally outclassed by Nearly Nvidia and ATi's entire product line. (If it follows the stats of the manyfold rumors).
They need to skip the Kyro3 entireley and go for the next generation. Aim at a Q1 2003 release and offer something really special. Not necessarilly the fastest, just a nice complete product with good numbers.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Hellbinder[CE] on 2002-02-09 23:19 ]</font>
ok if its only 100$ thats a reason
I wouldn't be at all suprised if it was. Going by the rumoured specs it would be about 25 million (or less) transistors, 250mhz DDR ram on a normal 128bit bus, thats around the same spec as a Geforce 2 TI, but its on a 0.13 micron process (which would make the chip quite a bit cheaper then the Geforce 2 TI chip). What's the TI selling for now?.. $80?
The R300 will offer 8 pixel pipelines
And it'll end up effectively using 4 of them, and only then if it has a 256bit segmented DDR bus (thats 512bit) and a decent improvement in bandwidth saving tech. It'll be quite a bit more advanced as far as pixel shaders ect but it may not be much faster even if Kyro III is only a 250mhz core with 4 pixel pipes and HW T&L. Obviously the R300 would likely still be the better buy (unless Kyro III has something great like free anti aliasing) but that wouldn't automatically make Kyro III a bad card, especially at the right price. I hear what your saying though about getting something out ASAP that supports DX8. But I don't think they'd want to forget Kyro III if its in a very advanced state and has almost finished drivers now would they? Surely it'd be better to release Kyro III and still get out the DX8 card, which a big company focused on the PC space easily could do. Lets just hope STM sell there graphics division to a big company thats focused on the PC market and so will aggressively focus on being right up there with Nvidia and ATI in the graphics card market (or at least close to Nvidia and ATI).
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Teasy on 2002-02-10 00:42 ]</font>
zborgerd
10-Feb-2002, 02:31
"The development and subsequent release of products based on PowerVR Technology is slow, relative to the rest of the industry."
Joe, you took the words right out of my mouth.
I think that all of us PowerVR "fans" are fairly confident in the technology. We are aware of what the current hardware is capable of, and that it has proven to be an excellent (perhaps perfect to some of us) alternative from the ATi and nVidia based products, yet still costs a fraction of the price. Others are not conviced. To them, Kyro 2 is basically bottom of the pile, "TNT2 class" (to quote) if you will.
It makes total sense that all parties involved in the design/fab/distribution of PowerVR based PC hardware need to be tight-lipped about what they are working on, but it doesn't do the consumers who aren't convinced of PowerVR's benefits any good, when they are seeing new nVidia and ATi based products every few months.
I am not saying that nVidia and ATi don't have good products (though I woulnd't dream of paying those prices for their current gaming cards,) but I think that PowerVR technology is a better model than what we have seen so far from these companies. If we don't start seeing some competition with the big boys' high end cards, then it is all in vein.
I feel that Kyro 2 is still a high end board at a value price. It can't compete in all areas with most GeForce 3-4, but it also doesn't cost you your firstborn. Always being a step behind the big boys with each new product is not going to help PowerVR/IMG. We need something that is still a value (compared to a GeForce 3-4, of course) but just blows the competition away with it's performanace. We know it can be done, but it's just a matter of "when". Only then will it really start to get the attention of card manufacturers and consumers.
zborgerd
10-Feb-2002, 02:34
On 2002-02-09 00:54, Sonic wrote:
Maybe SEGA can get another deal with IMG, because that darned Xbox arcade is looking obsolete really soon...
In my opinion, it is going to take a lot for X-Box arcade hardware to do what Naomi 2 can do. Naomi 2 is pretty much the end all, be all of arcade hardware in my opion. What is it? Dual Kyro 2 with a hardware T+L unit? How does a Geforce 3 even compare? They must really be tweeking X-Box arcade hardware to out-do that stuff.
zborgerd
10-Feb-2002, 02:40
On 2002-02-09 14:31, roninja wrote:
IMG need to either go it alone or go with a company that needs its technology and can use it aggresively...
It would indeed be neat to see that this whole hubub is only a result of IMG/PowerVR deciding to fab the chips themselves from now on, wouldn't it?
JavaJones
10-Feb-2002, 04:31
zborgerd, you mean allot like say a Geforce 4 Ti4600 (equivalent XGPU version, so including north bridge, etc.) with 256MB's (or even 512) of 400Mhz DDR (800Mhz "equivalent") serving the UMA, a 1.2Ghz PIII (or a 2Ghz P4, I have no idea how close to the actual Xbox they're sticking), etc, etc? Running at arcade resolutions and being programmed like an arcade machine, I think that would give Naomi 2 a run for its money, and with more versatility and functionality to boot.
There was rumor the GF4 was potentially multi-chip capable, but I'm assuming that's not the case as there's been no mention whatsoever of it recently. However if it was... :grin:
The thing in the arcade market is that money, heat, and allot of other stuff are so much less of a concern. Granted there are others like reliability, durability, what have you, but the point is that given a good chunk of change you could build some kick ass hardware with an evolved version of the XBox architecture. And I find it hard to believe that at least in most situations it couldn't compete with and surpass Naomi 2. Hell, they're making the damn thing after all. Surely there's a good reason? :razz:
Maybe Sonic has info on what the *actual* specs are? I'm totally speculating, based on a "cost no object" kind of situation (which to a degree the arcade market is, at least compared to the console market).
- JavaJones
Hellbinder
10-Feb-2002, 07:41
zborgerd,
""I am not saying that nVidia and ATi don't have good products (though I woulnd't dream of paying those prices for their current gaming cards,)""
Thats pretty unjustified in my opinion.
You can get a 250MHZ OEM Radeon 8500 for less than the price of Kyro2 when it launched. You can get a full 275mhz 8500 for about the launch price as the T.V out version of the Kyro2. Even the OEM version completely crushes the kyro2 in performance and has vastly better features like Hydravision and DVi out.
Nvidia is the only company out to rape everyones wallet.
Ati has a far superior product at a very affordable price. There is simply no Price justification for Kyro products over ATi. The Radeon 7500 is only 85$ and also completely crushes the Kyro2 in features and performance.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Hellbinder[CE] on 2002-02-10 08:43 ]</font>
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Hellbinder[CE] on 2002-02-10 08:44 ]</font>
Ti200 is substantially cheaper as 8500's, doubly so this side of the pond.
dksuiko
10-Feb-2002, 12:27
Hellbender...
Quite possibly the most objective man on the planet. The man lacks any agenda!
On 2002-02-10 11:45, MfA wrote:
Ti200 is substantially cheaper as 8500's, doubly so this side of the pond.
Hercules' R8500 cards are the cheapest now in Europe, cheaper than a GF3Ti200 where I live (and other brand R8500s will also get cheaper).
And I saw some asked for Naomi2 info:
http://www.segatech.com/arcade/naomi2/index.html
Oh? You can actually buy them now? (the 8500LE's that is)
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: MfA on 2002-02-10 13:54 ]</font>
Yes you can buy them now and get them in one or two weeks. :wink:
No really, R8500LE's are in very poor supply, but for 275 Euro you can get one now. The cheap Hercules card I was talking about cost 200 Euro.
What is it? Dual Kyro 2 with a hardware T+L unit?
Naomi 2 is two 100mhz Dreamcast chips (Neon 250 derivitive). Each chip has 16mb of ram with 800mbps bandwidth from each ram chip. With a 100mhz T&L unit, again with its own 32mb of ram and 800mbps bandwidth, capable of 10 million polys per second with 6 hardware lights (capable of upto 16 hardware lights). A 200mhz SH-4 128-bit RISC CPU with 32mb system ram and again a 800mbps bandwidth.
In a fixed system thats already very powerful. But the real key to Naomi 2's power is that upto 16 Naomi 2 boards can be conected together in one arcade cabinet. Making 32 100mhz Dreamcast chips (3.2gpixels/s, effective fillrate of 12.8gpixels/s with an overdraw of 4!!.. which is concervative for a fixed system), now work out how many polys per second it could do with 16 Elan T&L units and how much physics and AI it can do with 16 200mhz SH-4 128-bit RISC CPU's!!
You can get a 250MHZ OEM Radeon 8500 for less than the price of Kyro2 when it launched. You can get a full 275mhz 8500 for about the launch price as the T.V out version of the Kyro2. Even the OEM version completely crushes the kyro2 in performance and has vastly better features like Hydravision and DVi out.
You could get a OEM Radeon 8500 for $120 at launch?!
Ati has a far superior product at a very affordable price. There is simply no Price justification for Kyro products over ATi. The Radeon 7500 is only 85$ and also completely crushes the Kyro2 in features and performance
Kyro II is currently $57. 7500 doesn't completely crush it in features, the only feature it has that Kyro II doesn't is Cube Mapping and HW T&L, also it is faster but its not that much faster.
Oh? You can actually buy them now? (the 8500LE's that is
I bought mine months ago here in the U.K, and yes it was a very good price of ÂŁ165 (but the price has since gone up to ÂŁ180 for the same model).
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Teasy on 2002-02-10 19:05 ]</font>
Nebuchadnezzar
10-Feb-2002, 15:18
This is the biggest Topic i ever seen :wink:
155 Replies and 8600 Views, cool.
bystander
10-Feb-2002, 17:28
Hmm, 160 million polygons with 6 lights with a 12.8 gigapixel fill rate. Sounds OK to me. :wink:
Now if someone would just release a 4 chip Kyro2 that would be fine with me too. :smile:. (I presume that's technically possible? Though unrealistic?)
That would give a raw fill rate of about
1.4 gpixels/s. And a 5.6 gpixels/s fill rate with an overdraw of 4. Mmmm...
BTW have I calculated the numbers right?
roninja
10-Feb-2002, 18:03
so Hercules are not going to support the Geforce4 range, now this is good news for ATI, but could it also be good news for PowerVR, could they be putting their money on Kyro3 perhaps taking up the mid/high-range alongside the 8500.
Kristof
10-Feb-2002, 18:42
On 2002-02-10 16:18, Nebuchadnezzar wrote:
This is the biggest Topic i ever seen :wink:
155 Replies and 8600 Views, cool.
I think the religious discussion we had on our previous forum was bigger :smile:
roninja
10-Feb-2002, 19:33
Kristof, this topic however, is currenty highly related to your employment..will you still be in a job at the end of the week, or is PowerVR about to shut down...only joking...Do you know much about whats going on behind the scenes, or was this a bolt out of the blue, like it was for us shareholders on Friday???
knowname
10-Feb-2002, 22:28
On 2002-02-08 11:16, mat wrote:
would be quite funny if NV buys them :wink:
any ideas if ATI/Matrox/who ever is interested buying them?
out of the current vga companies doesn't Nvidea have the rights to Gigapixel (basically PVR or TBR, as I understand it) so they'd gain nothing but maybe more engineers familiar with the concept. And doesn't ATI have Z-buffer which is half PVR (AFAIK)... So that leave Matrox.... if they ever decide to reup their 32 line... but I don't want my next card to be a Misteek PVR!! Bitboys?? HA! STM (or IMGTech) is more likely too buy THEM out IMO ;-?. Via??? HMMMMMM.....
Hoe do you know it won't be a newcomer??? like 3com.... though they'd have too change their name to 4com ;-0
Kristof
10-Feb-2002, 22:52
On 2002-02-10 20:33, roninja wrote:
Kristof, this topic however, is currenty highly related to your employment..will you still be in a job at the end of the week, or is PowerVR about to shut down...only joking...Do you know much about whats going on behind the scenes, or was this a bolt out of the blue, like it was for us shareholders on Friday???
While I would love to comment it's very obvious that I can not do so. Sorry.
K-
Geeforcer
10-Feb-2002, 23:08
On 2002-02-10 23:28, knowname wrote:
On 2002-02-08 11:16, mat wrote:
would be quite funny if NV buys them :wink:
any ideas if ATI/Matrox/who ever is interested buying them?
out of the current vga companies doesn't Nvidea have the rights to Gigapixel (basically PVR or TBR, as I understand it) so they'd gain nothing but maybe more engineers familiar with the concept. And doesn't ATI have Z-buffer which is half PVR (AFAIK)... So that leave Matrox.... if they ever decide to reup their 32 line... but I don't want my next card to be a Misteek PVR!! Bitboys?? HA! STM (or IMGTech) is more likely too buy THEM out IMO ;-?. Via??? HMMMMMM.....
Hoe do you know it won't be a newcomer??? like 3com.... though they'd have too change their name to 4com ;-0
Err...
And doesn't ATI have Z-buffer which is half PVR (AFAIK)
Not sure what you mean here. If you mean that ATI have Z-buffer compression, hierarchial Z buffering and fast Z clear then no thats nowhere near TBR. Nobody knows if ATI have any TBR tech. But all this talk of ATI buying ST's graphics division is pointless anyway because any TBR tech ATI gained access to from buying ST's graphics division would still belong to IMGTEC not ATI, so ATI would not be able to do what they like with it, ATI would only have the licence to produce graphics chips based on IMGTEC's designs and IMGTEC would get money for each chip ATI sold. Also IMGTEC would develop the drivers.. which might actually be the only real plus point for ATI :smile:
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Teasy on 2002-02-11 01:26 ]</font>
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Teasy on 2002-02-11 01:29 ]</font>
I really hope someone picks up the licences and continue production models. Hopefully the new guys will shift focus to the mid-high end market and market TBR aggressivly. I've got me figures crossed till then.
Simon F
11-Feb-2002, 08:30
On 2002-02-08 17:39, DaveBaumann wrote:
Hey, would K and Simon join NV?
NV already have the Wolfman demo - they don't need a real hairy beast! :wink:
To whom, exactly, were you refering..?
Hellbinder
11-Feb-2002, 09:01
dksuiko,
Come on man I have no brand loyalty at all. I have owned cards from every single manufacturer on the planet.
Verite 1000
Voodoo 2
Savage 4
Voodoo 3 3500
Savage 2000
TNT 2 ultra
Geforce 2 MX
Kyro 2
Radeon 8500
Oh and an intel i815 for a while...
I have no agenda, I just call them as I see them. Perhaps if my analasys bothers some, perhaps their the ones with the lack of objectivity. I simply try to point out the facts as they are in black and white.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Hellbinder[CE] on 2002-02-11 10:06 ]</font>
RobTuck
11-Feb-2002, 10:48
Just try and make sure your black = #000000 and your white = #FFFFFF
:razz:
bystander
11-Feb-2002, 11:31
It's fairly unlikely that ATi or nVidia would buy STM graphics division, they really wouldn't gain anything from it.
But does anyone have any ideas on who might buy STM grahpics division?
What are the chances of say Matrox buying STM graphics division? They've used PVR-Tech before (admittedly it was a long time ago).
mboeller
11-Feb-2002, 14:29
I see only VIA as an potential buyer.
VIA would gain a lot ( cheap chipsets with highend 3D to counter NVidia and prestige when hopefully marketing highend 3D-chips as well ) and as Kristof stated "don't see it only negative".
IMHO only VIA would be willing to use PVR-tech to complement their business and VIA would be an improvement compared to the lackluster STM (from the postings in other forums I get the impression that IMG is happy to get rid of STM cause of their slowiness to release / market new chips )
Manfred
roninja
11-Feb-2002, 15:54
I think VIA are favourites, lets assume it is them from now on, just think of all those lovely integrated chipsets which IMG would love to see as well.
On 2002-02-11 15:29, mboeller wrote:
I see only VIA as an potential buyer.
VIA would gain a lot ( cheap chipsets with highend 3D to counter NVidia and prestige when hopefully marketing highend 3D-chips as well ) and as Kristof stated "don't see it only negative".
IMHO only VIA would be willing to use PVR-tech to complement their business and VIA would be an improvement compared to the lackluster STM (from the postings in other forums I get the impression that IMG is happy to get rid of STM cause of their slowiness to release / market new chips )
Manfred
well, that would give very good position on graphics market. They already have S3 Graphics...
How about SIS? they have been going more higher end all the time, but they still have long way to go if they don't buy someone...
roninja
11-Feb-2002, 18:29
Hitachi could be an option to takeover from ST M. They have connections with ImgTec through Dreamcast SH3 and what about Toshiba.
Ok nothing is concrete, but hopefully something is brewing.
bystander
11-Feb-2002, 18:38
I'd be skeptical of Toshiba, didn't they develop the PS2's architecture? Of course that wouldn't prevent them from buying STM graphics division.
As for Hitachi, I wouldn't have thought that they would want to enter the PC graphics market that's just my opinion.
I would believe that Via or SiS would be more likely than either Toshiba or Hitachi IMO.
An integrated PVR graphics chipset? Hmm...
Hellbinder
11-Feb-2002, 19:38
That would be cool.
SIS has shown interest in 3d graphics. They are taking little baby steps. For a Chipset manufacturer to have working T&L on their graphics design shows some potential.
I would love to see SIS partner with Imagine/powervr. Some nice High performance Cards and some totally AWESOME industry leading intergrated video.
Could you guys see SIS 800 series chipsets with 200mhz 4800 designs, or even the vaunted Kyro 3???
Hmmmm....
Trident would not be bad either. Pair their nice Blade3D 2D core (with that nice DVD/Mpeg-4 decoding) with high perfomance PowerVR technology....
Hellbinder
11-Feb-2002, 19:43
If it is via then they would probobly team Imagine with Their S3graphics division.
S3 was runored to be working on a TBR based architecture were'nt they????
mboeller
11-Feb-2002, 19:48
An integrated PVR graphics chipset? Hmm...
Yeah...
<dream-mode>
Think about it. 64bit QBM-memory @ 166MHz would give an bandwidth of 5,3 GB/sec; so an embedded Kyro 3 (PVR4) could run nearly at full speed and the main processor would have had enough bandwidth left for nearly uninterupted speed
</dream-mode>
:smile:
RussSchultz
11-Feb-2002, 19:51
My sources say that the graphics engineers from S3 are currently looking for placement in other jobs in the company and that there aren't any graphics chips in the works.
But my source isn't involved in the graphics side of business.
Joe DeFuria
11-Feb-2002, 19:57
Bleh....
I'm hoping it is NOT Sis or Via or any other chipset-maker that buys-out STM's graphics division. To me, that would just seal the fate of PowerVR technology...and relegate it to a lifetime of mediocrity. :sad:
Come on IMG -- have some balls and buy-out STM's Graphics Division yourself! If you are that confident in your own technology, put your money where your mouth is! :wink:
I'm hoping it is NOT Sis or Via or any other chipset-maker that buys-out STM's graphics division. To me, that would just seal the fate of PowerVR technology...and relegate it to a lifetime of mediocrity.
Why? VIA are massive in the PC motherboard market (my last two mobo's have been VIA and there both massively popular and very high quality) and surely they could be just as big in the PC graphics card market too. Why not?
They could put Kyro based chips in some of there new mobo's which would ensure a bigger TBR userbase and because there a company that's focused on the PC market they could enter the PC graphics add in board market quite aggressively if they have the right tech (which is where PowerVR 3, 4 and 5 comes in). Also they have a good relationship with TSMC and have access to there 0.13 micron process. It sounds like it could be a great move for IMGTEC IMO.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Teasy on 2002-02-11 21:22 ]</font>
Joe DeFuria
11-Feb-2002, 20:39
Why? VIA are massive in the PC motherboard market (my last two mobo's have been VIA and there both massively popular and very high quality) and surely they could be just as big in the PC graphics card market too. Why not?
Because IMO, no chipset maker is really interested in the (relatively speaking) low-volume, high-performance products. They are interested in making chipsets. Low cost / high volume is the priority, and performance / features comes second. In other words, I doubt Via or Sis would buy STM and have them churn out high-level add-in board graphics chips. They'd probably have those engineers work on integrating the graphics technology with their chipsets.
Also they have a good relationship with TSMC and have access to there 0.13 micron process. It sounds like it could be a great move for IMGTEC IMO.
I agree that someone like Via/Sis partnering for IMG Tech could be great for IMG TEC. :wink: I just don't see it as great for the gaming consumer, because I doubt they would focus on high-performance add-in boards.
dksuiko
11-Feb-2002, 20:51
Teasy,
Why? VIA are massive in the PC motherboard market (my last two mobo's have been VIA and there both massively popular and very high quality) and surely they could be just as big in the PC graphics card market too. Why not?
VIA being a large player in the motherboard market does not stand for much. As ST has already proven, having a large company backing up the technology does not mean they will press forward. The pace in the motherboard market is incredibly slow compared to the graphics market. And slow is the last thing we want.
They also already own S3 Graphics. If they showed any interest in the graphics area, they would have tried to do something with the technology. My guess is that they didn't even have an interest in S3's graphic technology in the first place. Instead, S3's Intel license, which allows them to build Intel motherboards, is what they were after.
They could put Kyro based chips in some of there new mobo's which would ensure a bigger TBR userbase and because there a company that's focused on the PC market they could enter the PC graphics add in board market quite aggressively if they have the right tech (which is where PowerVR 3, 4 and 5 comes in). Also they have a good relationship with TSMC and have access to there 0.13 micron process. It sounds like it could be a great move for IMGTEC IMO.
You make it sound so easy.
-dksuiko
Hellbinder
11-Feb-2002, 21:01
They also already own S3 Graphics. If they showed any interest in the graphics area, they would have tried to do something with the technology. My guess is that they didn't even have an interest in S3's graphic technology in the first place. Instead, S3's Intel license, which allows them to build Intel motherboards, is what they were after.
A very good point. This had crossed my mind. If they were serious we would have seen Savage 2000's big brother a LONG time ago.
I wonder why VIA cancelled Columbia?
Kristof
11-Feb-2002, 22:24
On 2002-02-11 22:54, pxc wrote:
I wonder why VIA cancelled Columbia?
Source, links, details ?
bystander
11-Feb-2002, 22:31
All this speculation is getting us anywhere.
[crazy mode]
Maybe we should all group together and buy out STM graphics division!
Hmm, there are about 300 of us in this forum. Let's say STM graphics division is worth $20 million. All it would need from each of us is $66,666 (hmm, spooky number).
Then we can bring out a high end PVR chip for ourselves...
[/crazy mode]
Joe DeFuria
11-Feb-2002, 22:37
We already have a fund drive going. :wink:
So far in addition to the savings I'm accumulating for my own house, the following "donations" have been made in this thread toward the cause.
* Someone's sale of a "high-end Mercedes"
* $1500 cash
* A Dollar
* Lint
:wink:
bystander
11-Feb-2002, 22:42
Well in that case Joe I'll "donate" my 3D Prophet 4500 64MB card to the fund drive. :wink:
Because IMO, no chipset maker is really interested in the (relatively speaking) low-volume, high-performance products. They are interested in making chipsets. Low cost / high volume is the priority, and performance / features comes second. In other words, I doubt Via or Sis would buy STM and have them churn out high-level add-in board graphics chips. They'd probably have those engineers work on integrating the graphics technology with their chipsets.
They can integrate PowerVR Series 3 and make mid level cards with PowerVR Series 4, they could also go for the highend with Series 5. That last part is unlikely but its likely they would do more then just integrated chips and there not going to use Kyro III as an integrated chip because Kyro II 4800 is perfect for that.
I agree that someone like Via/Sis partnering for IMG Tech could be great for IMG TEC. I just don't see it as great for the gaming consumer, because I doubt they would focus on high-performance add-in boards.
Then who in your opinion would? It seems VIA are the best option, and even if they didn't focus on the highend they could at least aggressively focus on mid-range chips which STM didn't do.
VIA being a large player in the motherboard market does not stand for much. As ST has already proven, having a large company backing up the technology does not mean they will press forward.
The difference being that STM were not a company focused on producing PC products, VIA are focused on the PC market.
They also already own S3 Graphics. If they showed any interest in the graphics area, they would have tried to do something with the technology.
Maybe S3's tech was just poor, I've never seen decent 3d tech from S3. Also I remember Wavey saying that its been said to him before that VIA didn't realise that S3 didn't have any future graphics projects when they bought them.
My guess is that they didn't even have an interest in S3's graphic technology in the first place. Instead, S3's Intel license, which allows them to build Intel motherboards, is what they were after.
Wether they were interested in 3d graphics chips then or not I don't know for sure but according to VIA they are interested now:
“VIA Technologies announced on January 30 the kick-off of its “Canaan Project” to deepen the diversification of its operations. According to the project, VIA will restructure its business into five units – chipsets, processors, graphics chips, optical drives and networking equipment. Its VIA Platform Solutions Division (VPSD) will remain under the chipsets division. Company CEO and president Chen Wen-chi said that VIA will try to position itself as a “platform” provider, instead of just being a core logic chipset designer.”
You make it sound so easy.
Not at all, its not about wether its easy or not, its just very possible for a big company thats focused on the PC market like VIA to do what I said.
ParkLife
11-Feb-2002, 23:56
On 2002-02-11 20:57, Joe DeFuria wrote:
Bleh....
I'm hoping it is NOT Sis or Via or any other chipset-maker that buys-out STM's graphics division. To me, that would just seal the fate of PowerVR technology...and relegate it to a lifetime of mediocrity. :sad:
Agreed. That would shove them into the integrated chipset ideal, which is never going to get anywhere near high end.
Come on IMG -- have some balls and buy-out STM's Graphics Division yourself! If you are that confident in your own technology, put your money where your mouth is! :wink:
I'm certain this wouldn't happen, it wouldn't exactly be what a IP Licensing company would be looking to do and would probably be considered as a devolutionary step. The only way it could possibly work was if it was bought and merged with the Videologic Systems Division, but like I said, I'm certain that it won’t happen anyway.
What happened to that consortium of companies who were supposed to be working with Sega and ImgTec on a new console? Hitachi and Philips were also included with this. Obviously the console is no longer happening, but these guys co-developing graphics solutions would certainly be interesting. Unlikely, but interesting :wink:
:wink:
Wouldn't Intel be a real possibility? They're involved with integrated graphics, mobile graphics and (in the past) AIB. Unfortunately, their 3D tech hasn't been up to much. They could also hardly be accused of not being interested in the high end - how many people buy a 2GHz+ CPU? The biggest concern is that AMD's competition may encourage them to focus on their core business.
Said consortium was misconstrued and information on it is not available. SEGA will reenter the home market only if it goes back to $2 billion in black. This probably will happen within 5 years, but don't get your hopes up. Phoenix will be obsolete by then most likely, but it would cost alot less. Does anyone think it would be possible to get NURBS in real time below a price of $15,000 for a unit?
Sonic
...IMG buys STM gfx... I'm certain this wouldn't happen, it wouldn't exactly be what a IP Licensing company would be looking to do and would probably be considered as a devolutionary step.
One could perhaps make a case for IMG developing flagship products themselves, and license their tech for other areas (mobile/integrated/STB etc.)
Their partnerships with NEC and ST have hardly resulted in rapid development of PVR PC chipsets (and hence have had only a limited effect on the market), and this is very possibly because the relationships between IMG + partner are too unwieldy.
There is also the argument that IMG should have a larger say in the development of 3D standards (they are a non-voting participant at OpenGL ARB meetings). With an unorthodox architecture, surely they should be ensuring that 3D APIs develop in a TBR-friendly manner? Of course, in order to influence standards, they must be at the bleeding edge of 3D tech themselves - where they're currently not.
IMG's IP licensing business model seems to be based on ARM's.
ARM is perhaps the most successful, high profile IP licensing company. The mature CPU industry has the following divisions:
a) High performance, high cost, low turnover dominated by the likes of specialist CPUs from SUN and IBM.
b) Medium level desktop CPUs from Intel, AMD, Motorola.
c) Low cost CPUs in commodity devices, particularly SOC, such as phones, PDAs, STBs, dominated by ARM.
The ARM was originally designed by Acorn as a desktop CPU. StrongARM was ARM's last attempt at a 'big' CPU, and good though it was, it never was hugely successful, and is now used almost exclusively in commodity devices.
The less-mature 3D market doesn't have a commodity section (maybe MBX will start to create one). Bracket a) is for the likes of 3D Labs, bracket b) for ATi and nVidia. I suggest the IP licensing model, so successful for ARM, is most appropriate for a bracket c), a type of market which doesn't really exist for 3D.
(Although... could IMG even afford to buy STM's gfx division?)
What happened to that consortium of companies who were supposed to be working with Sega and ImgTec on a new console? Hitachi and Philips were also included with this.
So were ST Micro :sad:. Actually, I'd love to know the answer to this too, but noone seems to know.
Sonic: care to spill the beans on 'Phoenix'? :smile: Does it use PowerVR graphics? :smile: Can we infer from your description of Phoenix the level of performance of which PVR is capable? :smile: (IIRC, Sega stated that they would continue to use a combination of Hitachi + PowerVR in future hardware). OK, you probably won't sing, but there's no harm in asking.
roninja
12-Feb-2002, 10:50
I think announcement needs to be made soon, IMG are loosing alot of confidence in the financial markets. They need to be seen to be acting fast, and securing their long term future. A deal with VIA or SIS will definately turn things around for the company, but it is strange that a buyers name has not been touted yet....
Lefungus
12-Feb-2002, 13:33
Another french interview of Hercules there
http://www.inpact-hardware.com/read_comment.php3?id_news=4466
I've translated (systran) a quote for english readers :
""""""""
- What about Kyro 3?
Christophe: We are not accustomed to speaking about products which are not announced officially.
- According to some sites, Hercules could consider the purchase of the graphic division of STM. Is it only a false rumour, or on the contrary, is it founded?
Christophe: This rumour is unfounded. On the other hand, WE WILL BE PLEASED TO WORK WITH THE FUTURE PURCHASER OF THE GRAPHIC DIVISION OF STMICROELECTRONICS.
"""""""""
In my opinion
The Kyro 3 isn't announced officially but it will :smile:
The future purchaser of STM's graphics division is no more hypothetical.
mboeller
12-Feb-2002, 15:18
In my opinion
The Kyro 3 isn't announced officially but it will :smile:
The future purchaser of STM's graphics division is no more hypothetical.
I don't agree.
Even if Hercules would have no plans to sell an card based on Kyro3 it is
very likely that they would give an press-blurb like "we don't comment on
future products" cause otherwise they would only hurt IMG and themeselves.
Also I find it disturbing that they see the Kyro3 as an mainstream-card like
the Kyro2. IMHO this could only mean that the Kyro3 is not as fast as an
Radeon8500 and has not enough features to compete with the Radeon7500 too.
I hope thats not true.
Also; the comment about the future purchaser of the STM-division only
means that Hercules would like to work together with them, but not that
an purchaser is already found.
IMHO, when STM would have had an purchaser of the graphics-division
already they would have only made an press-release saying "this is the
new company producing Kyro-cards in the future, we wish them all the
best". If an purchaser would have been close to be found, then we would
only heard about all this afterwards too (maybe in a few weeks). Only
when the situation is bad and no purchaser is found or near to be found
then we see what we see now ( announcement of an future sell of the
division ), cause STM will loose a lot of experienced engineers with this
announcement and could kill the future of the Kyro-3D cards too.
Manfred
PVR_Extremist
12-Feb-2002, 16:33
we have a comment from David Harold mentioning that even if no one else produces PowerVR cards, Videologic Systems is still committed to the PC space with the POwerVR technology.
see
http://www.pvr-extremist.com
so at least there will be Series 4 and 5 cards out there....timescale...who knows....
Also I find it disturbing that they see the Kyro3 as an mainstream-card like
the Kyro2. IMHO this could only mean that the Kyro3 is not as fast as an
Radeon8500 and has not enough features to compete with the Radeon7500 too.
I hope thats not true.
Why would the Kyro III being a mainstream card mean it doesn't have as many features as the Radeon 7500? The 7500 is basically a faster version of the original Radeon (same features), your saying the features of the original Radeon are beyond mainstream? I don't think so.
AFAICS it'd be hard to see the Kyro III not being at least as fast as the Radeon 8500. Even if the Kyro III was only 200mhz it should still be faster then even the 300mhz Radeon 8500 simply because it'd be a TBR with only 50% less bandwidth then the 8500 and a 800mpixels/s fillrate which it would likely fully hit.
Also when a company says a card is for the mainstream they mean price not necesarilly speed or features.
darkblu
12-Feb-2002, 16:58
we have a comment from David Harold mentioning that even if no one else produces PowerVR cards, Videologic Systems is still committed to the PC space with the POwerVR technology.
see
http://www.pvr-extremist.com
so at least there will be Series 4 and 5 cards out there....timescale...who knows....
now _this_ is disturbing..
ParkLife
12-Feb-2002, 17:01
The problem will be getting someone to finalise and produce the chips. I suppose if all else fails PowerVR themselves could source out the manufacture, but this would not sit well with the IP Licensing structure they have, and would simply make them the same as nVidia, ATI etc.
It's fairly obvious that they have no clear buyer at the moment otherwise the announcement would have been held until the deal had gone through. The problem will be if the division doesn't get sold quickly, ST might then just sell it to the highest bidder just to get rid of it.
This situation could go either way, if the right buyer is found it could be the best thing to happen to PowerVR. If it's not the right buyer then it might end in a mess.
The concerning thing is the fact that ImgTec probably do not want the same that we do. We want someone to buy who will take PowerVR high end, the just want someone who is going to sell shed loads of chips, which would probably mean integrated graphics or low end once again.
David Harold did not however say that if all else fail they would take development fully upon themselves ... all else failing means noone will license their IP to produce graphics chips with. He did not say that even in that case there would still be series 4/5 products.
I'll be honest, I still don't entirely get what ST does on the chip side. I mean if IMG comes up with all the IP, they should basically have a done chip there.
PVR_Extremist
12-Feb-2002, 17:45
On 2002-02-12 18:02, MfA wrote:
David Harold did not however say that if all else fail they would take development fully upon themselves ... all else failing means noone will license their IP to produce graphics chips with. He did not say that even in that case there would still be series 4/5 products.
No, he said "VideoLogic will continue to support PowerVR chips with future products"
Since they have Series 4 finished and are probably well down the road of Series 5, why wouldnt anyone logically conclude that those future Videologic systems products would be series 4 and 5 based?
Because someone still has to make those chips.
roninja
12-Feb-2002, 18:35
Can't TSMC make these chips under licence from Videologic, surely they already have the designs. How difficult can it be for VDO to take over the operation. Technical answers please...
Joe DeFuria
12-Feb-2002, 18:47
What is missing here, which kinda makes this speculation useless until we find out, is knowing EXACTLY what the IMG-Tech team provides to the chip-seller in terms of "design."
We know IMG-Tech develops IP, and licenses it to chip-makers/sellers. I'm pretty sure IMG-Tech does not actually design the shipping silicon.
There's a big difference between selling IP that goes into making chips, vs. selling the chip design itself.
So the question is, how much actual "silicon design" does IMG-Tech do? (And subsequently, how much engineering resources must be provided by the chip-seller toward designing the actual product?)
Johnny Rotten
12-Feb-2002, 19:27
On 2002-02-12 18:05, Dave wrote:
I'll be honest, I still don't entirely get what ST does on the chip side. I mean if IMG comes up with all the IP, they should basically have a done chip there.
Must.... resist... obvious.... jokes!! :grin:
mboeller
12-Feb-2002, 19:42
On 2002-02-12 17:51, Teasy wrote:
Also I find it disturbing that they see the Kyro3 as an mainstream-card like
the Kyro2. IMHO this could only mean that the Kyro3 is not as fast as an
Radeon8500 and has not enough features to compete with the Radeon7500 too.
I hope thats not true.
Why would the Kyro III being a mainstream card mean it doesn't have as many features as the Radeon 7500? The 7500 is basically a faster version of the original Radeon (same features), your saying the features of the original Radeon are beyond mainstream? I don't think so.
Read the interview. They say that the Radeon 8500 / LE is for the highend, the Radeon AllinWonder 7500 ( I didn't specify this cause it is in the interview ) for the Video-guys and the Kyro3 for the mainstream ( in between the words ( and when you want to read their word that way), when they say that the Kyro3 could be the next Kyro product with all the low prices explicity pointed out )
AFAICS it'd be hard to see the Kyro III not being at least as fast as the Radeon 8500. Even if the Kyro III was only 200mhz it should still be faster then even the 300mhz Radeon 8500 simply because it'd be a TBR with only 50% less bandwidth then the 8500 and a 800mpixels/s fillrate which it would likely fully hit.
Also when a company says a card is for the mainstream they mean price not necesarilly speed or features.
If it is as fast or faster than an Radeon 8500 / LE and has the same or more features then it makes no sense to sell this cards cheap. So if the Kyro3 is fast, then it is no longer an mainstream-product; if not then it surely is.
now _this_ is disturbing..
EEK...
They seem to have no purchaser yet and no one in sight too.
Otherwise this defending statement would make no sense at all. Seems IMG is in _BIG_ trouble at the moment. I _really_ hope they can resolve this fast.
Manfred
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: mboeller on 2002-02-12 20:45 ]</font>
Kristof
12-Feb-2002, 20:09
PR People :rollseyes:
:wink:
Read the interview. They say that the Radeon 8500 / LE is for the highend, the Radeon AllinWonder 7500 ( I didn't specify this cause it is in the interview ) for the Video-guys and the Kyro3 for the mainstream ( in between the words ( and when you want to read their word that way), when they say that the Kyro3 could be the next Kyro product with all the low prices explicity pointed out
What does that have to do with your assumption that Kyro III would have less features then 7500? Unless you mean less features then the all in wonder 7500, as in video features, but then why would you ever expect to see a Kyro III with all in wonder type features? So basically they said that Radeon 8500 would be for the highend (DX8.1 features), Kyro III would be for the mainstream (DX7 features with maybe free FSAA ect) and all in wonder 7500 would be for the people who want video editing stuff.. so whats suprising there?
If it is as fast or faster than an Radeon 8500 / LE and has the same or more features then it makes no sense to sell this cards cheap. So if the Kyro3 is fast, then it is no longer an mainstream-product; if not then it surely is
Its pretty clear that it won't have as advanced features as 8500 though.. nobody thinks it will. It might just be faster then cards like 8500 but without DX8. It was your comment on it having less features then a 7500 that puzzled me.
They seem to have no purchaser yet and no one in sight too.
Otherwise this defending statement would make no sense at all. Seems IMG is in _BIG_ trouble at the moment. I _really_ hope they can resolve this fast
If you read it again it actually looks more like David is saying that Videologic will continue to make cards based on PowerVR chips not that VDO will actually make the chips themselves. Also why would his comments mean that STM don't have a buyer?.. you really think he's going to admit to that? His comments sound more like he just can't say wether STM have a buyer or not and so he's reasuring people that if the worst happened even then IMGTEC would be fine and would continue to develop there PowerVR tech and licence it.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Teasy on 2002-02-12 22:45 ]</font>
ParkLife
12-Feb-2002, 21:37
I'd guess a buyer will be announced this month sometime and possible they will announce Series 4 along with it.
But I still do not understand why this announcement was made if they were already in discussions with people. It was obviously going to hurt ImgTec A LOT, so why not hold off the announcement until the deal is going through?
bystander
12-Feb-2002, 23:29
ParkLife, maybe they are not as close to a deal as we might think.
STM are probably opening more doors (making more opportunities) I believe by making a announcement that they will sell off their graphics division. But that's just IMO.
There are legal and stock market related rules in terms of selling part of your company. I assume there must be a delay between announcing your intention to sell and actually doing it. I don't think a company can just go "Hey, we sold these divisions because we felt like it.". Then again I am no expert at all on these topics.
roninja
13-Feb-2002, 14:14
excerp from electronicsweekly.com
Imagination is positive after ST's PC graphics exit
Richard Ball
STMicroelectronics’ decision last week to exit the PC graphics chip business could have a positive outcome for its technology partner Imagination Technologies.
The French-Italian chip company licenses Imagination's PowerVR graphics processor core for use in its Kyro and Kyro II chips, but has decided not to continue in the market.
“While we’re disappointed, if they can sell this business to someone, it could be a very good outcome,” Hossein Yassaie, CEO of Imagination, told Electronics Weekly.
ST made just $15m in revenue last year from graphics chips, a figure which could be improved by a buyer, leading to higher royalties for Imagination. ST announced last week it would be exiting the graphics chip business.
Talks with a potential buyer have been confirmed. “ST is in discussion with a company at the moment,” said a spokeswoman for ST.
Yassaie said UK-based Imagination is supporting ST at these discussions: “We are talking to the people involved,” he said.
Moreover, he claimed several other chip firms have approached Imagination with a view to licensing the PowerVR design.
Although ST is leaving the PC graphics chip sector, its work with Imagination will continue in other markets.
“Basically our relationship with ST has a number of facets. We work with them in PC and set-top boxes,” Yassaie pointed out. “And we expect to extend this into mobile applications.”
ST first licensed the PowerVR architecture three years ago, and has produced two generations of graphics chip. Last year it shipped around one million devices into the 50 million device market.
As recently as last June ST took a further licence for the next generations of PowerVR.
However, the spokeswoman said: “ST is focusing on business where it can achieve worldwide leadership.” These areas include comms, automotive, smartcards and digital consumer products, which includes set-top box, DVD and digital TV
Roger Kohli
14-Feb-2002, 12:39
I don't quite understand this. ST want to sell their graphics division, but still want to use PowerVR in set-top boxes and mobile devices. Won't they still need a graphics division for that? Or are they just selling their PC graphics part (which would seem daft as there must be a huge overlap)? Or are they intending to buy PowerVR chips off of whoever buys their graphics division (no, can't be right, they sell chips to others)?
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Roger Kohli on 2002-02-14 13:41 ]</font>
RussSchultz
14-Feb-2002, 14:30
Well, if they purchase the core for their set tops only, they don't have to worry about drivers for the general public--it only has to work in their application.
At that point, it becomes much much much simpler to handle support.
they don't have to worry about drivers for the general public
They don't anyway - IMG do drivers for Kyro.
Concerning Intel...
Where Intel has lost the most ground to AMD is with gamers, particularly those on a budget, right? A quality integrated chipset would make cheap Intel CPUs more attractive to the budget gamer. Also, a quality high-end AIB bundled to OEMs with fast P4s would boost the chances of Intel based PCs with richer gamers.
Intel buying STMicro's gfx division could be very good for the development of PowerVR technology, and for IMG's turnover. It wouldn't be so good for people who don't like Intel, although IMG wouldn't have any reason not to optimise drivers for AMD systems.
OTOH... what about SGI? :grin:
Eeeh, NEC anyone? I believe the relationship with NEC was not stopped when IMG TEC started to work with STM..
I haven't read all the post, so maybe this was already entered...
roninja
15-Feb-2002, 09:26
My favourite is VIA still, but who knows whom STM are negociating with...a few more rumours would be great.
Next week at 3GSM we'll see more of the next gen PowerVR MBX so it isn't all doom and gloom for all you PowerVR fans out there.
PC-Engine
15-Feb-2002, 10:29
Next week at 3GSM we'll see more of the next gen PowerVR MBX so it isn't all doom and gloom for all you PowerVR fans out there.
3D games on broadband 3G phones and Pocket PCs? Hmmm..interesting. When can I play Pocket PC Phantasy Star Online?
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: PC-Engine on 2002-02-15 12:24 ]</font>
Dave Baumann
20-Feb-2002, 21:45
David Harold finally managed to find some time to answer a few questions I sent to him last week. You can find a short interview here (http://216.12.218.25/domain/www.beyond3d.com/interviews/powervrst/index1.php).
Why is nobody talking about SiS in this matter? They are trying hard to get into the graphics market, but until now their solutions have been too slow - both in performance and in launch time.
I find SiS, VIA or Intel the most likely buyers atm.
Tagrineth
21-Feb-2002, 18:30
Evil Sam (SiS 315) is actually a pretty decent card - matching or beating Radeon VE in many tests.
I would love to see SiS give PowerVR technology a try. At least we know that they'd make independant graphics cards...
VIA would probably just integrate it all, like they're doing with S3 technology right now. Which would suck because I, for one, do not want to use a VIA chipset, even if it would be the only way to stick with PowerVR technology. :
I still feel, as nicely said, "limbo-ed" after that interview. Nothing the most of us didn't know already and surely nothing to bring up my hopes again regarding a reasonable release date of the Kyro3 or whatever name it will bear.
Unreal 2 is still my, and as I think not only my, personal deadline.
Please let me have my next generation Kyro until then.:smile: If not, ATI here I come.:cry:
A couple of quotes from ParaKnowYa's (http://www.paraknowya.com/specials/Q&A/#Q) interview with Dave Harold:
Q, So how do ImgTech intend to progress in the PC market, since a lot of PowerVR fans perceived STM to be slow and not aggressive enough.
We're happy that ST's potential buyers will be aggressive in this market, if the deal comes off.
Q, ImgTech need to tackle the high end, as it is this side of the scale which generates interest, once this is achieved sales at the lower end will come through, your previous approach with any new partner must not be repeated. (wait a minuet, is that a question?, who sent that in?).
No that's not a question. If we'd released a high end product first with ST then sales would have been in the thousands, not the millions. That doesn't mean we don't have plans for parts at a range of performance levels for the future.
Hints that a deal may be imminent with a major player (SGI... SGI... :smile:), and (perhaps) that IMG has plans for a high end card.
Tygrus_Artesiaoa
22-Feb-2002, 20:01
Tagrineth:
one while the sis 315 on paper doesn't look so bad...there are some serious driver issues...
it doesn't filter correct...textures aren't very sharp-this could be some lod setting. AA doesn't work...TnL performs poorly.
As for 2d/gdi+ and dvd they are great...they're 3d core is quite maligned though.
I'd shoot for via possibly but then it might only end up a integrated solution.
We need another player...unless Bitboys...hahah ( sarcasm ) release one day. I hope they do.
PowerVR and BB...one can dream?!
VIA would probably just integrate it all, like they're doing with S3 technology right now.
Apparently not:
"VIA Technologies announced on January 30 the kick-off of its “Canaan Project” to deepen the diversification of its operations. According to the project, VIA will restructure its business into five units – chipsets (which should include integrated graphics), processors, graphics chips, optical drives and networking equipment. Its VIA Platform Solutions Division (VPSD) will remain under the chipsets division. Company CEO and president Chen Wen-chi said that VIA will try to position itself as a “platform” provider, instead of just being a core logic chipset designer."
Looks to me like VIA don't just want to make ingegrated graphics.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Teasy on 2002-02-23 16:34 ]</font>
Coincidence? http://www.theinquirer.org/22020204.htm
Posted by Joe DeFuria in the console forum?
Would be great if Via bought the ST gfx division and used PVR for the X-Box if they get the deal.
The great thing about SIS is that recently they've been putting out some excellent hardware. The drivers would be taken care of by PowerVR, so that shouldn't be too much of a concern.
Also note that SiS have their OWN fab. So they can potentially optimize the circuit more.
problem is that tsmc and umc hates SiS.
also the process may not be compatible and a re layout would cost a lot of time.
problem is that tsmc and umc hates SiS.
Also VIA have a very good relationship with TSMC, they've already had access to TSMC's 0.13 micron (but I hear 0.13 is still not right yet) and Kyro III is supposed to use 0.13 micron. Although 0.13 is probably more a cost measure rather then actually needing 0.13 micron to hit 250mhz so if a company comes in and is not as bothered about cost as STM were they could put Kyro III on 0.15 micron, which has been readily available for a while, and end up getting Kyro III out before STM would have.
roninja
25-Feb-2002, 16:14
VIA-GRA 5500, has a good sound too it, must be much stiffer product, than the STG 5500 anyway. :grin: :oops:
Lefungus
25-Feb-2002, 16:29
On a via roadmap, a "Zoetrope" new graphics core is mentionned. It's an integrated solution. Maybe ?
See the full version here
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/story.html?id=1014252553
Dave Baumann
25-Feb-2002, 16:48
I doubt that would have anythng to do with PowerVR if they are sampling in March!
roninja
28-Feb-2002, 16:14
Looks like "a new graphics card" will be out at CeBIT in 2 weeks or so....
VideoLogic will be at CeBIT 2002 from 13 - 20 March (Hall 20, Stand D06). On display at the show will be VideoLogic's full range of PC and home entertainment products. For consumer entertainment VideoLogic will be showing the award winning DRX range of DAB radio tuners, new portable DAB technology and the advanced LiFE 4/10 home entertainment audio system. PC products at the show include the new ZXR-500 5.1 speaker system - winner of awards from PCW (UK) and PC Games Hardware (Germany); a new graphics card; and VideoLogic's full range of sound card and speaker products.
:rollseyes:
Dave Baumann
28-Feb-2002, 16:19
That could just be Videologic's version of STG4800.
roninja
28-Feb-2002, 17:47
Hopefully, they could also announce the buyer of STM's PC Graphics business around that time too.
:cool:
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