View Full Version : Argo - Portable XBox?
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2003116550_brier10.html
Argo is being developed within the Xbox group under the leadership of Xbox co-founder J Allard. His team includes people who previously worked on MSN Music, an online music service that had a promising debut in 2004 but fell victim to Microsoft's dithering over its music strategy.
Now the company is firmly behind Argo. It has committed hundreds of millions to produce and market the devices.
As reported last week, initially by Bloomberg News, the device is expected to go on sale by Christmas. It has Wi-Fi capability so it can connect wirelessly to home and public networks and other players.
Wi-Fi sounds like a big deal if you're comparing the player to the wire-bound iPod. But this is more than just another MP3 player. It will also compete with game players from Sony and Nintendo that have long had Wi-Fi and work as media players, Internet terminals and communication devices.
Argo is likely to showcase another Allard project — XNA, a new toolkit that helps game developers create titles for multiple platforms.
Shifty Geezer
11-Jul-2006, 23:30
The problem with this idea is, the device has had no marketting. Usually new gaming hardware is talked about yonks in advance to spread the word. If MS are creating a new handheld, to be launched months from now, why are they being so coy about it? Why aren't they advertising the games coming for it? Why are no devs advertising developers wanted to create Argo games? There's been no word on storage medium either. Where will you get games? How much will it cost? Presumably lots, as I guess it has an HDD. And finally, look at the picture of the device...
http://www.gadgetzone.nl/images/argo2.jpg
How are you going to play XBox class games on that? How are you going to play any games, other than Pong on the paddle? :p It's not a games device. They talk of a future range of XBox branded devices, and my guess would be that this is a music/media player only, with a portable PSP-class device to follow if this looks viable.
Guden Oden
12-Jul-2006, 01:03
I don't see why MS wants to get into the cut-throat business of music players anyway, they don't have a history of producing consumer electronics of this kind, and MS is first and foremost a software company anyway.
Just because there is a market for something doesn't mean they absolutely HAVE to get into it! I don't think MS toothbrushes or baked beans or cars would be a very good idea, they run the risk of overextending themselves and having to cancel the whole line a couple years down the road like they did with game controllers.
Maybe, like the xbox, the portable music device is simply a transportation method for what they really want to sell, content.
demonic
12-Jul-2006, 03:36
So this has wifi... man wifi is just too slow. It might be good enough to stream converted movies, but anything else.. nah. 54mbps just doesnt cut it and nobody gets the theo rate of 108mbps, its just marketting.
Now if they ship it with Wireless USB.. Now that would be something to talk about :)
Shifty Geezer
12-Jul-2006, 10:21
Maybe, like the xbox, the portable music device is simply a transportation method for what they really want to sell, content.Yeah. I think they look at Sony and what they're saying with PlayStation, and seeing an end-to-end integrated solution of content and platforms. If it's easy to use, it's a good way to encourage content purchases. MS on the other hand has a PC and a load of 3rd party software and hardware and formats with no integration. Where Sony have control all along the chain, MS only have the portal it seems.
Though MS are a software company, with a lousy track record in hardware, are things going to have to change? Is just software enough to keep them going for the next 20 years or do they need to diversify? They seem to be feeling the latter, though whether by a whim or neccessity I don't know.
Guden Oden
12-Jul-2006, 10:55
Maybe, like the xbox, the portable music device is simply a transportation method for what they really want to sell, content.
The thing is however that they HAVE to sell the transportation devices to be able to sell the content.
Consoles are in fact easier to sell I would think, because a console develops its own mercenary army that helps spread the word with no need for any outside interference. I never heard of any portable music player fanpeople though, if there are such things they're most certainly apple fanpeople in disguise.
I don't see what would make a person buy a microsoft-branded player over something colorful and flashy from any of the big established brands. Wifi access and whatever new features they cook up is basically useless, because people wouldn't know how to use them, and even if they did there'd be little NEED for them to use them.
When was the last time you were outside and felt a sudden and strong urge to start buying music and videos, right there on the spot?
Shifty Geezer
12-Jul-2006, 11:48
WiFi would be very good if you have a large network of open hotspots. This is something I was expecting for PSP. I think DS has got this to some extent, no? If when in an airport or burger bar, you could listen to an internet radio station and then buy straight onto your device, you'd have an edge of the opposition devices.
Such a service would need to broker a deal with the HotSpot services so customers wouldn't need to pay to use a particular HotSpot but get total coverage, with the device owner (MS in this case) paying for access. Otherwise you'll lose the impulse purchases. They'd probably need to levy a subscription fee to cover this.
Demirug
12-Jul-2006, 12:25
Think the Windows Mobile way. Microsoft will offer a hardware specification plus an operating system and everybody out there can build and sell such devices. This will build a common platform software developers and content provider can use.
darkblu
12-Jul-2006, 14:56
WiFi would be very good if you have a large network of open hotspots. This is something I was expecting for PSP. I think DS has got this to some extent, no? If when in an airport or burger bar, you could listen to an internet radio station and then buy straight onto your device, you'd have an edge of the opposition devices.
well, that's exactly one of the ways i'm using my psp. sans the buying part, that is. but god bless the free hotspots in the european airports and the unintentionally-unprotected ones in the NA malls : )
expletive
12-Jul-2006, 15:52
The thing is however that they HAVE to sell the transportation devices to be able to sell the content.
They dont but the problem is that they havent been able to organize a series of content providers and hardware manufacturers into something comparable to the end-to-end iPod/iTunes solution.
Consoles are in fact easier to sell I would think, because a console develops its own mercenary army that helps spread the word with no need for any outside interference. I never heard of any portable music player fanpeople though, if there are such things they're most certainly apple fanpeople in disguise.
Disagree here, see: iTunes for windows.
I don't see what would make a person buy a microsoft-branded player over something colorful and flashy from any of the big established brands. Wifi access and whatever new features they cook up is basically useless, because people wouldn't know how to use them, and even if they did there'd be little NEED for them to use them.
At this point, the only big established brand in portable music players is apple's iPod. Creative Zen is not a household name by comparison. Microsoft certainly brings a lot more recognition with it, a lot more. Who says MS wouldnt build something colorful and flashy of their own?
People would buy it because MS is in the unique position to taylor the OS that 97% of the world uses to work with this player. Obviously it needs to be a solid design on the hardware but the challenge for these other players hasnt been primarily hardware, its the total delivery chain. MS is clearly better positioned than any other company to implement an iPod competitor in this regard.
Before Apple came out with the iPod would anyone have thought it was a relevant decision for them to get into this business? Did they ever produce a device like this? Fact is, apple never had anything close to the iPod and look at what happened.
When was the last time you were outside and felt a sudden and strong urge to start buying music and videos, right there on the spot?
I dunno, ive never really had the opportunity to do so.
The bottom line is that the iPod and iTunes provides the best end to end solution (imo) for digital music and video. MS has tried to corral all thier hardware and content partners into a similar model but none of their cobbling has produced the user experience that iTunes does. iPod/iTunes/Apple is becoming a monster. They are bending record labels and movie studios to their will. MS recognizes this kind of leverage with content providers is very dangerous to their businesses and their trying to get a foothold in the market with xbox and now this thing. Seems like an obvious and necessary move imo.
The problem with this idea is, the device has had no marketting. Usually new gaming hardware is talked about yonks in advance to spread the word. If MS are creating a new handheld, to be launched months from now, why are they being so coy about it? Why aren't they advertising the games coming for it? Why are no devs advertising developers wanted to create Argo games? There's been no word on storage medium either. Where will you get games? How much will it cost? Presumably lots, as I guess it has an HDD. And finally, look at the picture of the device...
I dont think thats a big problem. I think the big news is the existence and the release date is secondary. How long would you really need to generate buzz for a media-only device going into the holidays?
Also, i think we're right on the cusp of high-cpacity flash memory for these devices and here's hoping we see them soon.
How are you going to play XBox class games on that? How are you going to play any games, other than Pong on the paddle? :p It's not a games device. They talk of a future range of XBox branded devices, and my guess would be that this is a music/media player only, with a portable PSP-class device to follow if this looks viable.
Makes sense and there have been more than a few mentions of "xbox-branded" devices, hinting towards a complete line of them.
Though MS are a software company, with a lousy track record in hardware,
Really? I dont have that same impression. They certainly produced their share of stinkers but theyve had a lot of decent to very good products as well.
TheChefO
12-Jul-2006, 22:42
The problem with this idea is, the device has had no marketting. Usually new gaming hardware is talked about yonks in advance to spread the word. If MS are creating a new handheld, to be launched months from now, why are they being so coy about it? Why aren't they advertising the games coming for it? Why are no devs advertising developers wanted to create Argo games?
Perhaps it will only play Live Arcade games which will be readily available by the end of the year. True they may not compete directly with a psp or ds in this light but then it would be kinda nice to have geometry wars in my "ipod". :smile:
MS has been trying different approaches to dominate the portable player market. Now they're becoming a competitor to their former partners, kind of like how they went from being a supplier to Dreamcast to basically elbowing past Sega -- if Sega was still in hardware when the Xbox came out, I wonder how it would have felt.
Yeah I think they're borrowing Steve Jobs' playbook, which is to keep it secret, have a big unveiling. But if they were to add gaming, they would have to show at GDC and E3 ahead of time. It wouldn't be like how Apple unveiled video as a new feature right before the actual products shipped.
As for public hot spots, most airports, including the ones in Europe, charge you quite a bit for day use. A player with any kind of capacity really will have no need to access music on the go, unless impulse purchases play a big factor in music buying. You should have enough music that you can get through the day without needing any further music until you get home.
They haven't made access to public wifi hotspots seamless for the hundreds of millions of laptops in the world already so it's doubtful music players, whether from MS or Apple, would fare any better.
MusicGremlin has a wifi player now, which allows sharing as long as both are subscribers, which is what the record companies want but probably not what users will like. I believe they allow the kind of ad hoc sharing that DS and PSP players can use without hotspots. But really, do people go to public places scanning to see if others have similar devices so they can play games or share music for a few minutes?
Really most people figure the threat to Apple would come from cell phones. You can certainly buy music on the go now but if it's a big success, nobody is crowing about it yet. Of course, what works against cell phones as replacements for iPods is that music playback drains battery life away from the primary use, which is telephony. Plus, people like to swap out their phones every couple of years or more frequently, which works against accumulating any kind of music library on the device. You could use removeable media but that's an expensive way to store any kind of sizeable library.
expletive
13-Jul-2006, 02:31
If they made the device bluetooth capable to link with cell phones, would that obviate the need for hotspots? I'm not well versed on bluetooth functionality between phones and devices outside of headsets...
Guden Oden
13-Jul-2006, 08:53
It could, many current phones are capable of functioning like a modem for internet access through bluetooth, but that doesn't really mean you WANT to. Data transfers across the internet from cellphones currently is CRAZY expensive. You'd end up paying a buck for downloading the song, and then paying ten bucks for downloading the song! :D
Not only that, US carriers specifically try to prevent you from tethering using Bluetooth.
They obviously want you to download music from their service to their phones only.
Say hello to:
http://images.dailytech.com/nimage/2061_zune_logo.jpg
Courtesy Dailytech (http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=3288).
Are they really going to use that as the product name?
I thought it was going to be Xbox-branded.
Zune is clever for upscale, vaguely exotic kind of vibe. They could have named it concerto or some other nonsense.
It's going to be marketed to an upscale demographic with that kind of branding.
expletive
13-Jul-2006, 15:24
Are they really going to use that as the product name?
I thought it was going to be Xbox-branded.
Zune is clever for upscale, vaguely exotic kind of vibe. They could have named it concerto or some other nonsense.
It's going to be marketed to an upscale demographic with that kind of branding.
Probably similar to the ipod pricing (which at $300 - $400 for a music player is upscale imo), and then theyll reach down to the mainstream with the 'Zune Mini' and 'Zune Micro'.
With a screen this size, if theyre not using hgih capacity flash memory the battery life for video (and audio, relatively speaking) will probably be dreadful.
expletive
13-Jul-2006, 15:26
It could, many current phones are capable of functioning like a modem for internet access through bluetooth, but that doesn't really mean you WANT to. Data transfers across the internet from cellphones currently is CRAZY expensive. You'd end up paying a buck for downloading the song, and then paying ten bucks for downloading the song! :D
Gotcha, thats what i kinda figured and was wondering if we had moved beyond that archaic interaction and more towards where it would function as a 'direct connection to the internet'. Thanks for the info.
I'm guessing screen size of at least 3-4 inches. There are digicams now with 3-inch screens.
With video, you need a lot of storage -- over 10 gigs.
Flash is better for battery life but is expensive when you get into the tens of gigs.
If they were to put 20 GB flash for $300, that would be a category killer.
expletive
13-Jul-2006, 16:01
I'm guessing screen size of at least 3-4 inches. There are digicams now with 3-inch screens.
With video, you need a lot of storage -- over 10 gigs.
Flash is better for battery life but is expensive when you get into the tens of gigs.
If they were to put 20 GB flash for $300, that would be a category killer.
Yeah i dont know what the pricing would be for these units:
http://ce.seekingalpha.com/article/7982
But they are ideal for portable media players. Without this tech, i wonder what the battery life would be though...
Shifty Geezer
14-Jul-2006, 17:03
An HDD and flash card reader are what these devices want. Flash keeps dropping and dropping. £25 gets you 2 GB of CF nowadays. In a few years that'll be more and more. PSP was maybe a little premature. There wasn't a suitable, affordable flash storage for it, so they came up with UMD. But that's looking pretty backward now. An HDD and flash port (for affordable flash media ;)) with download content would be great. Still, how do you get gigabytes of affordable content onto a handheld? Is it acceptable to supply games on DVD for users to have to insert in their PC/PS3 and copy over to the portable? I think so.
edit : It appears Sony themselves aren't averse to trialling such an idea. One DVD, four films, only watchable on PSP.
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=18294
So is Zune (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060722/ap_on_hi_te/microsoft_music_6) = Argo? :smile:
Megadrive1988
22-Jul-2006, 09:12
it seems Zune and Argo are the same thing, but, are not the portable game system that Microsoft is working on, which will not arrive until late 2007 at the soonest. the MS portable game system is meant to arrive roughly inbetween Xbox 360 and the NEXT Xbox console.
it seems Zune and Argo are the same thing, but, are not the portable game system that Microsoft is working on, which will not arrive until late 2007 at the soonest. the MS portable game system is meant to arrive roughly inbetween Xbox 360 and the NEXT Xbox console.
From all the reports I've read it seems that later models of the Zune brand of media players will eventually have gaming functionality. Whether or not that translates to a portable Xbox at this time is unknown. Rumors have stated that the initial Zune device will come with 400MHz DSP for its CPU. Kinda vague I know, but if it's true, then isn't that a tad bit overkill for a simple iPod-like device?
Personally, I don't think there will be a portable Xbox as such, but it does make sense for the Zune line of devices to go that direction considering the initial support for the Live Anywhere initiative. It's definitely an interesting product for Microsoft and one that I'm excited about. Seems others are as well after seeing all the Zune websites sprout up all over the place.
Tommy McClain
expletive
24-Jul-2006, 15:11
I posted this another thread:
I think the unit will end up playing games but only the variety that one would find on the better cell phones or maybe next gen's cell phones. So the mobile version of Zuma you saw in the E3 presentation would be an example of something you would see on this device. The mobile games are really the only type that seem to fit in with the control scheme of the mock-ups we've seen.
Shifty Geezer
24-Jul-2006, 15:29
For what it's worth (which is very little) MS have created another outstanding teaser site
http://comingzune.com/default.aspx?ref=23159&id=2631
There's a big person, a bunny, and a little person, and they stroke the bunny. To some music. Gee, thanks for the info. I'm really excited for Zune now. Or not.
expletive
24-Jul-2006, 15:52
I liked it, go figure. ;)
I think its this kind of marketing (the unimposing 'we're all in this together' vibe) that MS needs if theyre shooting for the iPod.
Who does the big scary guy represent in this ad? The RIAA, the iPod, a stranger? I think that the rabbit represents the content that will be 'shared'.
Toshiba is the company Microsoft has chosen to manufacture Zune. They make their own PMP, the gigabeat, which shares some features that are proposed for Microsoft's device. On the possibility that Zune uses the same system-on-chip as gigabeat, the i.MX31L, Microsoft would only need to spend about three dollars more on licensing to activate its MBX Lite core in order to give Zune 3D and gaming capabilities.
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