View Full Version : Need a graphics card that will work on a Intel 440LX chispet
All,
My Diamond Fire 1000 Pro(Permedia2) is finally giving up the ghost and I need to replace it. This is a work computer and I've been permitted to get another card for it. However, it's a Dell Dimension XPS D333 that has the Intel 440LX chipset. From what I'm able to gather it looks like a AGP 1.0 spec motherboard. I saw a message that said that I might have a problem finding a modern AGP graphics card that will work since the AGP slot runs at 3.3v instead of the 1.5v that it is used today. Is this right? If so, what options do I have? Thanks in advance for your help.
P.S. This computer also has a 200W power supply.
Tommy McClain
I think they are right.
What about a PCI card?
Maybe an original TNT AGP.
Pascal,
Thanks for the reply.
I hadn't thought of going PCI. However, I definitely need something that has OpenGL support under Windows 98. I basically have one program that uses 3D and it uses OpenGL. Anyway, I'll check on some PCI cards. It would be nice if it was newer than the TNT series.
Tommy McClain
arjan de lumens
31-Jan-2003, 21:06
3.3 volt shoudn't be much of a problem unless you try to insert an AGP 8X capable card - all AGP 1.0 and 2.0 cards are required to either tolerate 3.3V or else be keyed to prevent insertion into a 3.3V AGP slot. But IIRC, old 440LX motherboards tend to have trouble feeding modern graphics cards all the power they need across the AGP slot. I would guess that a Geforce4MX (non-AGP8X version) or a Radeon9000 would work fine, but I can of course not guarantee anything.
Arjan,
Thanks for the reply.
I think I've found that the Dimension XPS D333 motherboard is one of the few that have problems working with AGP 2x cards. Fortunately, people have had good sucess with PCI cards. So I'm lining up my options and looks like they are very short.
ATI Radeon 7000 or 7500
NVIDIA GeForce2 MX200 or MX400
NVIDIA GeForce4 MX420 or MX440
Those are definitely better than a TNT. Any opinions? Driver support for OpenGL in Windows 98 is required. I don't think price is much of a concern considering these all should cost less than $100. Not really going to be playing any games since this is a work computer, but I might try to after hours if they're any good. :)
Thanks in advance for your reply.
Tommy McClain
Joe DeFuria
31-Jan-2003, 22:38
If you definitely don't want to try any AGP cards, then your best bet would be the GeForce4 MX.
Joe,
Thanks man. I definitely don't want to go AGP. So I guess GeForce4 MX is my choice. I guess I can stop trying to install and run 3DMark. ;)
Tommy McClain
OK. After some PMs I'm going to change my stance on not buying an AGP card. I've decided to take some advice and go to Best Buy tomorrow and get a Radeon 9000 Pro AGP, if they have any. If it doesn't work I can take it back and go with something else.
Here's a list of the cards I'll be looking to get in order of preference...
1. ATI Radeon Pro 9000 64MB AGP - $99.99
2. BFG Asylum GeForce4 MX440 64MB AGP - $99.99
3. BFG Asylum GeForce4 MX440 64MB PCI - $99.99
4. PNY Verto GeForce4 MX420 64MB AGP - $89.99
5. PNY Verto GeForce4 MX420 64MB PCI - $89.99
6. eVGA.com GeForce4 MX420 64MB PCI - $89.99
7. ATI Radeon 7500 64MB PCI - $79.99
8. eVGA.com GeForce2 MX200 32MB PCI - $59.99
I probably won't get a chance to install it till Monday, but once I do I'll let everybody know what I end up keeping and what didn't work.
Thanks for everybody's help.
Tommy McClain
Naturally Best Buy didn't have my top 2 choices. So I went with #3. Figured I'd rather have the faster of the chips that had available even though it's on the PCI bus. Hopefully the install will go fine.
One thing I noticed was what was in the box, or what wasn't in the box. I haven't received or bought a new card since the Voodoo5. So it was interesting to see that the BFG box only included 1 CD, an anemic installation pamphlet and the card. The card wasn't even wrapped in a anti-static bag. Is this how retail cards shipped now, or this just how BFG does it? Looks like their getting cheap.
Tommy McClain
I hope you will enjoy your new toy :wink:
Tagrineth
03-Feb-2003, 20:11
I know what people are going to say about this, but...
If you really want an AGP card, the Voodoo series is very famous for compatibility in that sector... and the 761 miniport isn't in too bad a shape really ;)
In any case, 3dhq is working hard on finalising their OpenGL ICD (not miniport, ICD ;))... shouldn't be too much longer.
Sorry, had to say it :)
I hope you will enjoy your new toy
Toy? This is suppose to be for a work computer. ;) Though working for my dad has it's advantages. Hehe :)
I know what people are going to say about this, but...
If you really want an AGP card, the Voodoo series is very famous for compatibility in that sector... and the 761 miniport isn't in too bad a shape really
In any case, 3dhq is working hard on finalising their OpenGL ICD (not miniport, ICD )... shouldn't be too much longer.
Sorry, had to say it
LOL :) That's great to know, really! :) I have a Voodoo3 that I won at a Game Developer Conference, but that's in my desktop at home. Before I got laid off at JPA the latest graphics card I had received was a Voodoo5 5500 AGP. Unfortunately I let my cousin "borrow" it awhile back. Not sure when I'll get it back though. During my 4 years working for JPA, Derek Perez only sent me 2 graphics cardA, a RIVA 128ZX and I think a RIVA TNT. At least I got the nifty metal cases to go with them. :D Anyway, this will definitely be an interesting experiment. I didn't get a chance to install it today, but maybe tomorrow. There's no rush.
Tommy McClain
Tagrineth
04-Feb-2003, 15:05
Hehehe!
'nother thing in V5's favour is that pretty much all those other cards get totally crippled by the lack of AGP.
Give it a try, see if it'll run what you need it to. 3dfx mostly maintained compatibility rather than performance in their drivers... but there are bugs (that probably won't be fixed for a while yet).
Crusher
04-Feb-2003, 15:47
Eh, sorry I didn't read this sooner, could have saved you a few bucks. There are lots of used GeForce 2's for sale on AnandTech's forums these days, usually $25-35.
Tagrineth,
Can you give me that URL for the latest Voodoo5 drivers? I'll want to download them once I get my V5 back, which might be next month. I'll be running it on my home machine. Don't really want to run it on this machine I have here at work. Thanks in advance.
Crusher,
If you'll see the first message, the card I was buying is for a machine at work. My boss, who is also my dad, bought it using the company credit card. He wanted to buy something new that had a warranty, tech support and could be taken back to a store for an exchange or refund just in case it didn't work. Now, if I was buying a card for myself, then I would have used any number of sources.
Tommy McClain
Joe DeFuria
04-Feb-2003, 16:40
Hi Tommy,
It will be an interesting experiment, but for your particular need with OpenGL, I would be surprised if the Voodoo works out. But hey, you can't beat "free." ;)
Oh, and for drivers, I would check here:
http://www.voodoofiles.com/
Hi Tommy,
It will be an interesting experiment, but for your particular need with OpenGL, I would be surprised if the Voodoo works out. But hey, you can't beat "free." ;)
Free? Yeah, I worked hard for that one; :D Anyway, I'm not really interested even experimenting with the Voodoo5 on this office computer. I have some very expensive, copy-protected software on here that I don't want anything to happen to. It's scary enough that I'm going to put in a new graphics card as it is. :)
Oh, and for drivers, I would check here:
http://www.voodoofiles.com/
Thanks for the link. I saw the 3dhq drivers Tagrineth mentioned. Found their site at www.tdhq.net. Hopefully Tagrineth will notify everybody once they have the ICD done.
Tommy McClain
Tagrineth
04-Feb-2003, 19:57
Thanks for the link. I saw the 3dhq drivers Tagrineth mentioned. Found their site at www.tdhq.net. Hopefully Tagrineth will notify everybody once they have the ICD done.
Tommy McClain
It'll be on the front page, of course ;)
They're taking way too long though... blarg...
/me thwaps Aquoues wherever he is
:D LOL
My computer seems to be running fine and my OpenGL app looks lots better. I will say one thing, BFG is a joke of a retail company. Everything on the CD was directly from NVIDIA(ie reference drivers and demos). I installed and ran all the demos like Bubble, Toy Soldiers, Creature and Chameleon. Ummm, didn't I see all this back at GDC 2001? ;) I _tried_ running the GeForce4 Ti demos. Needless to say they were slow. :) I don't see how BFG's products are worth what they're asking for. Nothing above and beyond reference board and drivers from what I see. Starting to wonder if I should return this card and get the ATI Radeon 7000 Pro instead. Come on Joe convince me, I know you want to me to. :)
BTW, the drivers that came with it are 4.13.01.3082 dated 7-16-02. I see NVIDIA has released 41.09 back on 12-3-02. Would it be worth installing these if I wasn't going to take it back?
Tommy McClain
Joe DeFuria
06-Feb-2003, 03:41
Heh...
Well, the GeForce4 MX and Radeon 7000 series are both DX7 class cards. They have hardware T&L support, but no pixel shaders. Neither of those cards is in the same league as the Geforce4 Ti, or Radeon 9000.
As much as I'd like to 'convince' you to go for the Radeon 7000, there really is no justification to. It's probably a little slower, and the GL drivers for that chip probably aren't as good. The 2D quality on the display may be better though.
Again, if you could get your hands on the 9000, that would likely be the best bet. :P
:D LOL
My computer seems to be running fine and my OpenGL app looks lots better. I will say one thing, BFG is a joke of a retail company. Everything on the CD was directly from NVIDIA(ie reference drivers and demos).The good side is that you will always have drivers/tools for it and with more frequency than customized drivers/tools. Good to see everything is working. There are many drivers in the nvidia site, some WHQL. New doesnt mean better for you application.
Heh...
Well, the GeForce4 MX and Radeon 7000 series are both DX7 class cards. They have hardware T&L support, but no pixel shaders. Neither of those cards is in the same league as the Geforce4 Ti, or Radeon 9000.
Oh crap, you're right about the GF4MX not being a DX8 card. I forgot all about their highly suspect naming scheme on the MX series. No wonder the Ti demos were slow. :) What I don't understand is why even include them in the first place?
As much as I'd like to 'convince' you to go for the Radeon 7000, there really is no justification to. It's probably a little slower, and the GL drivers for that chip probably aren't as good. The 2D quality on the display may be better though.
Again, if you could get your hands on the 9000, that would likely be the best bet. :P
Umm. I messed up above. I meant to say Radeon 9000 Pro instead of the 7000. But anyway, so you're basically saying it may not be worth it in the end to go from the GF4MX to the Radeon 9000 Pro? I have a feeling you may be right. I'm thinking my OpenGL app will not look any different or run any faster with the Radeon 9000 Pro. But at least I would have a DirectX 8 level card that supports pixel shaders. I also suspect the retail experience I would get from the Radeon 9000 Pro will be more satisfying than this GF4MX joke I got from BFG. :D
Tommy McClain
The good side is that you will always have drivers/tools for it and with more frequency than customized drivers/tools.
True. But I thought I was paying a premium for that customized drivers/tools. The premium didn't give me anything that an OEM or reference board would have done.
Good to see everything is working. There are many drivers in the nvidia site, some WHQL. New doesnt mean better for you application.
Yeah I know. However, I'm thinking that I will take back the GF4MX and chance getting a Radeon 9000 Pro AGP instead. If they don't have one in stock, I'll just wait till they do. If it doesn't work, then I can always go back to a GF4MX PCI card. But buy a cheap OEM version instead.
Tommy McClain
Hi, Tommy. I'd say that if it's a work computer, just stick with the MX440. But then, you'll be able to run just one 3DMark03 game demo on it. :P
Hi, Tommy. I'd say that if it's a work computer, just stick with the MX440. But then, you'll be able to run just one 3DMark03 game demo on it. :P
Hehe :) Good thing I took the card back then. Best Buy took it back with no problems. And they actually had one 64MB Radeon 9000 Pro in stock. Imagine that! :) I just finished installing it and everything seems to work just fine. Let me check my OpenGL app. Hang on a sec...
It works just fine. Looks and performs just like the GF4MX440. Which is what I expected. My OpenGL app is not much of a 3D workhorse. It's just a USGS topographical mapping program that uses USGS elevation data to create a 3D representation of a topographical map. At least now I'll be able to run their next updated version with no problems when it comes in the next month or so.
Now to run those NVIDIA demos I still have installed. Bad thing is those GFTi demos didn't have an install program. They were just ran off the CD. Maybe I'll check NVIDIA's site for them. I'm also going to play with the demos that ATI shipped on the CD. I'll post another reply with my comments on all the demos. Thanks again for everybody's help. It's much appreciated.
P.S. I saw BFG's $100 pre-order box for their GeForce FX at Best Buy. Man, I couldn't believe it. <shakes head>
Tommy McClain
Joe DeFuria
10-Feb-2003, 17:09
Note that most (not all though) of nVidia's demos are coded in OpenGL with nVidia specific extensions, so the vast majority of them may not work on the Radeon 9000.
There are quite a few demos / screensavers on ATI's site. Any of them that are advertised to require DirectX 8.1, pixel shaders 1.4, or the Radeon 8500 should work. If a demo is advertised to require DX9 or a Radeon 9500, it won't work...
Edit....
http://mirror.ati.com/developer/index.html
Links on the left side for demos and screensavers. ;)
Note that most (not all though) of nVidia's demos are coded in OpenGL with nVidia specific extensions, so the vast majority of them may not work on the Radeon 9000.
Ahh, no wonder. Only the Bubble demo worked when I tried it.
There are quite a few demos / screensavers on ATI's site. Any of them that are advertised to require DirectX 8.1, pixel shaders 1.4, or the Radeon 8500 should work. If a demo is advertised to require DX9 or a Radeon 9500, it won't work...
Edit....
http://mirror.ati.com/developer/index.html
Links on the left side for demos and screensavers. ;)
Thanks for the link. I checked it out and it looks like only the Outdoor Light Scattering and Dolphin demos were not included on the CD that came with the card. Downloading them now. The others ones were pretty cool. I was most impressed with Nature and Rachel.
Guess I'll try some of those 3rd party demos too. I finally get to try Humus' demos! :) And if 3DMark 03 ships tomorrow, then I might as well download it. It will be interesting to see if my name is still listed in the credits. :)
What about actual game demos for download? The latest PC game I've played was Unreal Tournament. Maybe I should try Unreal Championship on my Xbox before I try Unreal Tournament 2003. ;) Anyway, I would be interested in game demos that mainly could be played smoothly on this P2-333, but I'm starting to think that might not be feasible. Any ideas? What about Tribes 2? Yeah, I know it's old now, but I never got to play it.
On an additional note, I'm starting to think the Radeon 9000 Pro is a better "bang for your buck" than the GF4MX I originally had. The "out of the box" experience was much better. It had a nice thick Getting Started Guide. Higher quality software add-ons(HydraVision and Multimedia Center). A DVI connector with an adapter to support a 2nd CRT and a S-Video converter to RCA converter.
By the way, the PNY version of the GF4MX might have had a better "out of the box" experience than the BFG version since it looked like it included some actual games. But I think I'm going to stick with this Radeon 9000 Pro since it's a DirectX 8 class video card.
Tommy McClain
The Radeon 9000 is really better than the GF2 on steroids.
What about actual game demos for download? The latest PC game I've played was Unreal Tournament. Maybe I should try Unreal Championship on my Xbox before I try Unreal Tournament 2003. ;) Anyway, I would be interested in game demos that mainly could be played smoothly on this P2-333, but I'm starting to think that might not be feasible. Any ideas? What about Tribes 2? Yeah, I know it's old now, but I never got to play it.
Tommy McClain
Probably the XBOX experience will be better.
Weird, here's a similar upgrade (http://arstechnica.infopop.net/OpenTopic/page?a=tpc&s=50009562&f=67909965&m=4330952155). I made some suggestions to that poster as to system upgrades, which you may be interested in. Dell's typically weak PSU may limit you to a P3/Celeron2 upgrade path for that particular machine, though, which probably isn't worth it.
The Radeon 9000 is really better than the GF2 on steroids.
Yeah, I agree from what I've seen so far.
Probably the XBOX experience will be better.
That's what I'm thinking as well. Time to rent UC I guess.
Weird, here's a similar upgrade (http://arstechnica.infopop.net/OpenTopic/page?a=tpc&s=50009562&f=67909965&m=4330952155). I made some suggestions to that poster as to system upgrades, which you may be interested in. Dell's typically weak PSU may limit you to a P3/Celeron2 upgrade path for that particular machine, though, which probably isn't worth it.
Thanks for URL Pete! I hadn't thought of that. Yeah, upgrading my CPU may cause the copy-protected software I use with AutoCAD to quit working too. So it might be better to just buy a new machine and get a new installation key for my software. Something to think about... :)
Tommy McClain
Umm, I can't seem to run the Dolphin v1.1 demo on my Radeon 9000. Here's the error...
This demo requires hardware support of N-Patches. The graphics processor
and/or drivers in this system do not meet these requirements.
If the graphics processor is an ATI RADEON 8500 or newer, please
visit ATI.COM to download the latest drivers. If you do not have
DirectX 8.1 or newer installed, visit MICROSOFT.COM/DIRECTX
This application will now exit.
At first I had both DirectX 8.1 and Catalyst 2.1 when I first received this error. Then I installed DirectX 9.0 and Catalyst 3.1 and I'm still recieving the error.
Any ideas?
Tommy McClain
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