View Full Version : Bouncer is the best looking PS2 game
It sure is. :idea:
FF12 with Bouncer quality graphics = satisfied PS2 owner.
What you say archiez? :shock:
http://ps2media.ign.com/media/previews/image/bouncer/thebouncer_1.jpg
http://ps2media.ign.com/media/previews/image/bouncer/thebouncer_18.jpg
http://ps2media.ign.com/media/previews/image/bouncer/thebouncer_21.jpg
http://ps2media.ign.com/media/previews/image/bouncer/thebouncer_32.jpg
There are no reasons why FF12 cannot look like this. I will quit bitching about the PS2 once FF12 looks this good. :oops:
randycat99
30-Dec-2002, 04:01
I will quit bitching about the PS2 once FF12 looks this good. :oops:
Somehow, I doubt it. :roll: :oops:
You must be bored lately on your chosen console with your sudden barrage of "why PS2 sux" topics. Shouldn't you be eyes deep in Splinter Cell right about now or something?
I am done with SC. :idea: 8)
Tis a PS2 topic, no Xbox trolling here. :!:
randycat99
30-Dec-2002, 04:15
Well go play it again. It's got replay value, doesn't it?
That's like Wreckless blurry.
Heh if I remember correctly The Bouncer was little more than tech demo with controls ;)
PC-Engine
30-Dec-2002, 08:30
Looks like a case of overuse of motion blur :lol:
Peppermonkey
30-Dec-2002, 14:12
it looks like the motion blur is more subtle than most of the newer games coming out. Thievius Racoonus made me cringe.
Tagrineth
31-Dec-2002, 00:10
The Bouncer is terrible, 'nuff said.
Graphics are pretty good for PS2, but still, the game is awful.
JacksBleedingEyes
31-Dec-2002, 00:19
The Bouncer is terrible, 'nuff said.
Graphics are pretty good for PS2, but still, the game is awful.
Hey dicksh]t the topic is on how good it looks not how well it plays.
I still think ICO looks better though.
Tagrineth
31-Dec-2002, 00:27
Hey dicksh]t the topic is on how good it looks not how well it plays.
I still think ICO looks better though.
Hey asshole, get a clue, I did mention the graphics and what I thought of them. But graphics are meaningless without being at least part of a functional game. If you cut back on everything else, yes, graphics can be fantastic, but the moment you turn on a decent AI subsystem... physics... blah blah blah, you cut back on power that could be used for graphics. Graphics and gameplay tend to be intrinsically linked... and IMO you can't mention one without at least bringing up the other.
But graphics are meaningless without being at least part of a functional game. If you cut back on everything else, yes, graphics can be fantastic, but the moment you turn on a decent AI subsystem... physics... blah blah blah, you cut back on power that could be used for graphics.
While I agree with what your saying about graphics/gameplay, and I don't advocate language that hurts my ohh so virgin ears, I'm going to have to agree with him.
The Bouncer, as some one stated, can be looked upon as a glorified technical demo. I don't hear you criticizing nVidia or ATi for their tech demos not having "good gameplay" - it's pure visual appeal, nor are they activly finding creative new uses of this power... just making it look F*ing fine.
randycat99
31-Dec-2002, 02:04
Just for giggles and kicks, anybody care to list out the graphics buzzwords that appear applicable in the Bouncer?
marconelly!
31-Dec-2002, 03:31
It appears to have specular highlights, antialiasing and motion blur used.
You can make bouncer like screens with any games screens.
Use photoshop like program to alter your image.
open the image.
copy it and paste it onto new layer, so the new layer is on top of the original image.
pick the top layer, apply blur filter to it like 20 or so times.
reduce the opacity to about 35-40% of that blured layer.
Then you'll get a nice fog like glow.
Neat trick.
Will FF12 features this level of graphics?
Looking at past FF games, they hardly have any free moving environments and interactivity.
Bouncer quality graphics should be possible for the characters, towns and dungeons?
Am a bit disappointing to see FF10 cutscenes < Bouncer cutscenes. :?
I'd be happy if the game (on any system) looked as detailed as Shenmue's real-time, in-game, opening cut-scene:
http://www.itsmyphotos.com/shenmue/images/13.jpg
cybamerc
31-Dec-2002, 11:02
Lazy8s:
The DC is dead. Learn to live with it.
That's completely irrelevant, cybamerc. We're talking about what level of graphics we'd like to see in FF12, and I'd like to see character detail with the features represented in that picture I posted - skin composed of a translucent top layer revealing life-like patchiness of redness across the surface, appearance of individual hair strands, realistic light gloss across the lip, reflection in the eyes, etc.
With FF12 being the third to fourth chapter of the series on the same hardware, I think its traditionally cinematic approach towards camerawork and screenplay would benefit from character models of the detail level Shenmue displayed in this cut-scene. Shenhua there is surrounded by a pretty expansive environment, one that would fit well with the Final Fantasy presentation, so I think it could be done.
I don't know what you Sega/DC/Anti-PS2 fanboys see in Shenmue, but it must be amazing - much better than what we're seeing. e.g....
skin composed of a translucent top layer revealing life-like patchiness of redness across the surface, appearance of individual hair strands, realistic light gloss across the lip, reflection in the eyes, etc.
Bahahahahaha. All that from a simple texture.
Peppermonkey
31-Dec-2002, 18:11
The dreamcast had good textures, but it lacked in polygon detail. I personally like the Dreamcast a lot, and I feel it was still worth my purchase. If the PS2 could handle textures like the Dreamcast could, I'm sure people wouldn't be dissing it so much in the technology department.
Logan Leonhart
31-Dec-2002, 20:18
I really don´t get what Sega fanboys, or anti-PS2 guys see in Shenmue. It´s graphics are merely mediocre for today´s standards.
Dear Lord: Please make the Dreamcast die.. again.
Thanks, Vince
Wow...
I wasn't even the one that mentioned Dreamcast in the first place. I merely used Shenmue, the example I found most fitting, as the model for what I wanted FF12 cinematics to resemble. Sorry that I couldn't use Enclave, or ICO, or Burnout 2, or Star Fox Adventures, or Baldur's Gate or any of those other games as my example, but none of those have the eastern artistic stylings or LOD engine focus that RPG-ish games like Shenmue and Final Fantasy share. I also wasn't aware that the Dreamcast was off limits from which to pick an example.
It so happens that Shenmue is on Dreamcast. With all the "The DC is dead" and "Dear Lord: Please make the Dreamcast die.. again" reactions, it seems some of you are troubled that one of the most fitting examples could come from a game on over four year-old, inexpensive hardware. But, geeze... get over it. Shenmue was the example for the way its graphics are presented and for their qualities, not some "look at how many more polytextures Dreamcast pushes over your system blah blah blah" flamebait.
Tagrineth
31-Dec-2002, 23:15
But graphics are meaningless without being at least part of a functional game. If you cut back on everything else, yes, graphics can be fantastic, but the moment you turn on a decent AI subsystem... physics... blah blah blah, you cut back on power that could be used for graphics.
While I agree with what your saying about graphics/gameplay, and I don't advocate language that hurts my ohh so virgin ears, I'm going to have to agree with him.
The Bouncer, as some one stated, can be looked upon as a glorified technical demo. I don't hear you criticizing nVidia or ATi for their tech demos not having "good gameplay" - it's pure visual appeal, nor are they activly finding creative new uses of this power... just making it look F*ing fine.
I didn't start the name calling ;P
And there's a big difference between a glorified tech demo with controls and something that's supposed to pass off as a story (Bouncer) and an nVidia or ATi tech demo sans controls (well sometimes with some rudimentary ones, scale, rotate, you know the drill):
:arrow:Price. ;P
Then there's also the fact that Bouncer attempts to pass off as a game... which IHV demos don't. ^_^;
Tagrineth
31-Dec-2002, 23:18
Oh, and by the way, that Shenmue screenshot does look good, but see, there's a catch with that shot: DC's video chip is a PowerVR, so it doesn't render what isn't on the screen... in an extreme close-up like that, they can afford to go berserk with the LOD because frankly they don't have to render anything else. :)
And once you're actually in the game, the graphics aren't really that great, the LOD plummets at light speed, and there's a LOT of pop-(fade-)in.
Ozymandis
31-Dec-2002, 23:22
I really don´t get what Sega fanboys, or anti-PS2 guys see in Shenmue. It´s graphics are merely mediocre for today´s standards.
Because the scope of the world is still pretty impressive.
Shenmue was something of a revolutionary concept. The game was more story than gameplay, but the world that it created made it better than your average shallow game. The graphics were practically the best at the time of release, IMO.
Only Soul Calibur and PC games could beat Shenmue in 2000.
Lazy8, why? why must you poison my FF12 with your Shenmue fetish? :cry:
As for the Shenmue opening, the most impressive thing is the close up of Shenhua face, the rest was blah! humblah! The eagle looks low polygon, the cliff is full of shimmering and the surroundings were very bland.
Bouncer graphics is more impressive than Shenmue cutscenes.
archie4oz
01-Jan-2003, 05:13
Heh if I remember correctly The Bouncer was little more than tech demo with controls
That would be a pretty good description! :wink: Although unlike most tech demos, "The Bouncer" actually made money... :P
Am a bit disappointing to see FF10 cutscenes < Bouncer cutscenes.
Which ones? FFX's pre-renders kick the snot out of anything from the Bouncer. Of course the real-time stuff is arguably clean on the Bouncer, however when you're dealing with a title that has art assets the scale of an FF title, you can't exactly make every one a master piece (and doing them all pre-rendered would've been prohibitively expensive).
Looking at past FF games, they hardly have any free moving environments and interactivity.
Bouncer quality graphics should be possible for the characters, towns and dungeons?
Different games, different teams, *completely* different game engine (FF games have inherited a metric ton of legacy, whereas the Bouncer is relatively fresh, inheriting (and arguably trashing to some degree) IMO the most technically impressive 'fighting game' engine made on the PSX)...
Archiez, i obviously meant for the real-time stuffs, who bothers about pre-renders nowadays? :o
I hope FF12 uses a modified Bouncer engine. FFs and Bouncer have almost similar camera work and character interaction. Just increase the size and scale of Bouncer levels and lo-n-behold, you have FF sized towns or dungeons with beefy polygon characters. :shock:
Though the cost is another issuse....but then dont Square spent millions on every new FF title? :shock:
Make use of that tech demo Square! Tech demo should not be put to waste! :oops:
randycat99
01-Jan-2003, 06:03
I would hazard to say that there should be at least one Bouncer-sort of project going on at all times. This is just so we get to see what the PS2 can do when pushed to the limit with what is known at a given time in its lifecycle. It's possible some truly amazing stuff could drop out of the mix when such things such as marketable gameplay are deliberately put on 2nd priority. Mind you, I'm not saying all games should be done like this or that game development should move in this direction, at all. It's just interesting to have a "ringer" in the mix. At the least, it could serve as inspiration or a goal post for other developers on the platform, graphicswise.
Potentially, it could lead to an alternative form of video entertainment in the same spirit of the pre-recorded movie. It could get to the point where an entire CG movie could be orchestrated in realtime. It's not a DVD, yet it's not a game. It is a movie, but not prerecorded. As a bonus, there would be no DVD compression artifacts or associated production degradations. It is realtime generated- you can't get any "purer" than that. This wouldn't be done by big Hollywood studios (they would just make a full-out movie production). This could be done by smaller CG studios that have an interesting manuscript to wield. There's no celebrity stars to pay, but maybe their would be celebrity voice talent. No sets to build- just all virtual development (the CG guys), a team of writers, and a team of artists.
I would hazard to say that there should be at least one Bouncer-sort of project going on at all times. This is just so we get to see what the PS2 can do when pushed to the limit with what is known at a given time in its lifecycle. It's possible some truly amazing stuff could drop out of the mix when such things such as marketable gameplay are deliberately put on 2nd priority. Mind you, I'm not saying all games should be done like this or that game development should move in this direction, at all. It's just interesting to have a "ringer" in the mix. At the least, it could serve as inspiration or a goal post for other developers on the platform, graphicswise.
Didn't ICO start off like this? As an R&D graphics experiment with some simple (yet fantastic) gameplay thrown in?
marconelly!
01-Jan-2003, 08:11
Didn't ICO start off like this? As an R&D graphics experiment with some simple (yet fantastic) gameplay thrown in?
As far as I know - no. It started as a PSX game, but they later moved on to PS2 development.
DC's video chip is a PowerVR, so it doesn't render what isn't on the screen... in an extreme close-up like that, they can afford to go berserk with the LOD because frankly they don't have to render anything else.
There's no catch, really. Good graphics engine will not render what is not on the screen anyways. Software will take care about that if hardware doesn't.
Fafalada
01-Jan-2003, 09:49
I would hazard to say that there shouldbe at least one Bouncer-sort of project going on at all times. This is just so we get to see what the PS2 can do when pushed to the limit with what is known at a given time in its lifecycle.
That's what bigger companies have R&D departments for. The output of those teams doesn't necesserily yield anything useable over some time frames, it's just there to experiment with possibilities.
And a fair share of it Does get shown to developer community eventually as well.
Making them into sell-able products is rather less likely, as time constraints are one thing that Isn't in the mind of most R&D people. ;) Besides, I do believe Bouncer didn't originally start as a techdemo project... but with all the personell changes they supposingly went through, it's a wonder it was even finished.
DC's video chip is a PowerVR, so it doesn't render what isn't on the screen
But SH4 still has to transform it.
MrSingh
01-Jan-2003, 10:06
unlimited saga vs. the bouncer
which is the greatest kusoge ever? :D
cybamerc
01-Jan-2003, 14:46
Lazy8s:
> That's completely irrelevant, cybamerc.
Nonsense. Only bitter Sega fanboys still consider old DC games like Shenmue and Soul Calibur as graphical benchmarks.
The fact is that there are games on all 3 next gen system with superior character models than the one shown in that pic. I'm talking the RE games on the GameCube, Silent Hill 3 on the PS2 and DOA3 on the Xbox. And this is in-game, during play and not just limited to some scripted cutscenes.
While that Shenmue pic definitely looks decent there are a few sacrifices that are very apparent. E.g., the details on the ear is created with a texture and the highlight in her pupil is pre-painted.
Tagrineth
01-Jan-2003, 16:43
DC's video chip is a PowerVR, so it doesn't render what isn't on the screen... in an extreme close-up like that, they can afford to go berserk with the LOD because frankly they don't have to render anything else.
There's no catch, really. Good graphics engine will not render what is not on the screen anyways. Software will take care about that if hardware doesn't.
Ideally, yes. But how many graphics engines are actually capable of it? Ludicrously few. Look at PC graphics. If engines already occluded everything, why the hell are PowerVR cores so mind-numbingly fast compared to similar-spec cards? My Kyro II with a pathetic 350Mtps and 2.8GB/sec can best a GeForce2 GTS with 1.8Gtps and 5.3GB/sec.
(and doing them all pre-rendered would've been prohibitively expensive).
Pre-rendered them ALL :twisted:
Developers or someone or rather is doing a good job at pushing real time cut scenes in games to consumer. That's a smart move I guess, but production value would be higher if all is pre-rendered.
marconelly!
02-Jan-2003, 02:39
Ideally, yes. But how many graphics engines are actually capable of it? Ludicrously few.
Well, I know that even the average looking games for todays standards (GTA:VC) use that technique in software, so I would be extremely surprised if those that look really good don't :\
Well... first of all, the deferred rendering going on inside Dreamcast really only applies to the way it handles its own business from a hardware perspective. The logic being run to handle occlusion by the game's engine still has to be tight to ensure the engine isn't tracking needless and obscured detail. However, while software engines on all platforms implement occlusion methods to reduce the amount of unnecessary drawing/tracking, the effectiveness of this will be a function of how efficiently it was implemented... like with all things programming.
And you certainly can't take for granted that most games on all platforms implement it well. I'd go as far as to say the effectiveness of a developer's attempt to occlude non-visible areas (using well placed buildings and walls, setting the appropriate view distance, and trying to keep the bounds of what gets rendered as tight as possible) is one of the largest factors separating the performance of good free-roaming driving engines (Crazy Taxi, The Getaway {I've heard}) from weaker free-roaming driving engines (Super Runabout, GTA3).
Tagrineth
02-Jan-2003, 15:16
Ideally, yes. But how many graphics engines are actually capable of it? Ludicrously few.
Well, I know that even the average looking games for todays standards (GTA:VC) use that technique in software, so I would be extremely surprised if those that look really good don't :\
Yeah, of course engines try to limit what's rendered... but not a single current one successfully eliminates 100% of what isn't on screen. You can't.
There's only one engine I can think of offhand that really does do brilliant, nearly complete culling: Unreal Tournament. The old one. It's mostly a software engine so they HAD to spend a lot of time blocking out what isn't visible :lol:
Man it be nice to see the sony fanboys stop picking on the sega fan boys. Its getting really old. Resident , Metal gear solid and all of the games you guys like to compare to shenmue take place inside for at least 80-90% of the game. Name one game that has graphics better than shenmue and has a world as open and as detailed as shenmue's world is tell me the year it was made in and what system and if it even looks just as good i will never bring up shenmue again.
marconelly!
03-Jan-2003, 00:47
jvd, the thing is - Shenmue is not very open in the sense today's popular open games are (namely, GTA:3/VC or Morrowind). It's more like a serious of rooms, separated with long load sequences. It's just that it takes place outside, but it has room structure nevertheless. Even Jak & Daxter has more open ended structure, in the sense that it never visibly stops and loads. J&D also has a lot more polygons throwing around at twice the framerate, with very respectable (abeit cartoony) textures and very nice visual effects.
Shenmue is a very beautiful game, but technically it's been outgunned long time ago.
Logan Leonhart
03-Jan-2003, 01:45
IMO, it´s one of those instances of incredibly wise art. Look at SC, for example. It still looks very nice, but technically, it´s far from being the best 3D fighting game and has been outdone for quite some time. Shenmue is the same, IMO. It has nice art, and yeah, it probably maxed out the DC, but technically it is still inferior to other games, and has been for some time.
Shenmue is just a brilliant example of why art is so important to a game.
randycat99
03-Jan-2003, 02:08
...and to add, it's hardly the case that PS2 people are "picking on" DC people about Shenmue. Usually the case is people are talking about one thing, and then some DC person has to bring up Shenmue. If you get a lot of flack over it, it's because countless people before you have countlessly beat that dead horse, so no liberties are spared when some joker brings it up once again. If anything, it's the "...well Shenmue rulz all of U, cuz it's got dis, and dis, and dis..." digression that is getting old.
Shenmue's been outgunned? I guess we shouldn't make mention of any PS2 games from now on in topics about absolute performance standards (which wouldn't include a topic that's already PS2 centric of course, like this one).
marconelly! i can't comment on jax and whatever , i will try to rent it this week. I can comment on morrowind for the computer. I'm running it on a 9700 pro and the distance before things are fogged out or a a large structure is in the way of the horizon happens often and at close range. I will not sit and say shenmue is the best looking game . I will say that no game has eclipsed it and really most games have just caught up or have just slightly passed it. While talking about ff11 you guys have to understand rpg graphics are behind the curve because of the massive amount of time it takes to make one. Also they haven't made a good final fantsy since 6 and i mean how many final fantsys can you have anyway :-)
Shenmue does look good, even better than GTA3 imo. Then again, the game was in planning since the Saturn days. Given the time and cost invested in the game by Sega AM2, it is not surprising that Shenmue is DC best looking game.
The game is by no means perfect though. Popups, shimmering, blocky environments, blocky people, slowdowns, loadtimes, blurred textures, static lighting, draw distance and the likes. :oops:
jvd, the thing is - Shenmue is not very open in the sense today's popular open games are (namely, GTA:3/VC or Morrowind). It's more like a serious of rooms, separated with long load sequences. It's just that it takes place outside, but it has room structure nevertheless
Yes, that is exactly what i think of Shenmue too.
A glorified RE or SH game with more attention to details. :oops:
The game is by no means perfect though. Popups, shimmering, blocky environments, blocky people, slowdowns, loadtimes, blurred textures, static lighting, draw distance and the likes. :oops:
Even on Xbox you should add. :)
PC-Engine
04-Jan-2003, 01:58
What I'd like to see is a Shenmue III built from the ground up for a nextgen console then see other developers try to best it :wink:
Konami or Square or Naughty Dog or Bungie or ID and many others, could give AM2 a good challenge, given all other factors(like time and money) being equal.
Sega is not the only ones with good development teams. :oops:
PC-Engine
04-Jan-2003, 07:36
They'll be following not leading though :wink:
PC-Engine:
They'll be following not leading though
Yup. From scaling sprites to the original, flat-shaded 3D Virtua Fighter and Virtua Racing, AM2 practically wrote the book on modern 3D.
Yes, it was Sega who created modern 3D. :roll:
The first game to use polygons was I,Robot, made in the 80s, by atari. Here is a link http://www.classicgaming.com/rotw/irobot.shtml
Yeah, I know there was 3D way before. The algorithms for expressing 3D have been around for decades, and I was playing vector 3D and even polygon games on my Commodore 64. To me, though, AM2 has practically marked the beginning of each major stage in modern, real-time, 3D gaming graphics with a major release:
Back in the 2D era of the mid 80s, they pushed the boundaries of expressing 3D with some of the most amazing sprite scalars: Hang On, Space Harrier, etc.
Around 1994, smooth, modern 3D came to life with Virtua Racing and the first Virtua Fighter on the Model 1 board.
AM2 then showed us the next stage sometime around 1995 (while the Saturn and PSX were still getting off the ground), with higher res, textured mapped polygons and 60 fps in Virtua Fighter 2 and Daytona USA on the Model 2 board.
The first time we saw 3D with all the fancy effects drenched onto the polygons with things like perspective correction, mip-mapping, z-buffers, texture filtering and all that was when Virtua Fighter 3 and Super GT dropped around 1996 on the Model 3 board. Super GT was all fleshed out with modeled rims and tires on the car, translucent and reflective windshields, etc.
And the very first time we saw characters of that detail and more running around in their own expansive world, like last-gen pre-rendered CG come to life, was when AM2 showed Shenmue way back in '98 and released it in '99.
I think we're still in the Shenmue stage at this point. Sure, more recent games like Halo and Panzer Dragoon Orta improve all the seperate elements like effects, lighting, geometry, texturing etc. to some degree, but I don't think we're quite at the point yet where the standards mark a whole new look in 3D over Shenmue. Maybe later this generation with games like Halo 2, or perhaps when the next powerful arcade board gets released.
PC-Engine
06-Jan-2003, 05:00
What's great about Shenmue and SEGA is that it's games within a game :wink:
Since SEGA makes all kinds of games they can include many game engines within a single unified gaming engine model. It's very difficult for a developer that specialized in only one genre to make a game like Shenmue. Take Id for example, they're only good at making FPS.
Well, Sega has about 50 times the staff of Id, so it is not strange that they can create more and different games than Id, which maybe does one game every two years.
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