water cooling best choice for todays rig?

[Cartoon Corpse]

e.g...
dual core 64bit FX-60, 4G ram, dual X1900 crossfires, 500G HD(s), 640W PSU, PPU, soundcard

with ATX (limitations) perhaps liquid cooling is the 'sane' choice at this point?

the higher you allow the ambient temp to be, the shorter the electronic lifespan at some point right?

[Diplo]

I don't think you need water cooling. The fact is, with AMD chips at least, they are actually getting more efficient (using 90nm fabrication) and are actually generating less heat than their predecessors. It's only the Intel chips that suck silly amounts of power.

http://techreport.com/reviews/2005q3/athlon64-x2-3800/power-load.gif

I'd say good case ventillation would serve you better than risking the dangers of water cooling (electricity and water never seem a good combination to me!). Get large, 120mm fans that push a lot of air whilst being quiet (since they rotate slower).

the higher you allow the ambient temp to be, the shorter the electronic lifespan at some point right?
True, but ask yourself what is the usable life of, say, a CPU? It may last 20 years if run cooler, as opposed to ten, but would you really be using it that far in the future, anyway?

[Cartoon Corpse]

thanks (espicially for the chart). i was just thinking we were nearing the limits of ATX air cooling.

BTX was supposedly a solution to the ATX cooling limitations (i read..no 4Gz cpus without it)

water an electricity don't mix...but Harley (motorcycles) stayed aircooled for too long..water cooled engines are able to produce much more power. maybe the PC was heading the same way.

[Sxotty]

My pump leaked in my water cooling setup, it was an unfortunate incident to say the least. Now my water cooling system is gathering dust, though at some point I will use it again I am sure.

[maaoouud]

Don't be afraid to get yourself a watercooling kit! Just make sure you read up on it before you install it. Watercooling is perfectly safe (deionized water will not break your computer, it's not really conductive, and leaks tend to be small) if you take your time when installing it and make sure there's no leaks. Then you only need to check on it once in a while to check the waterlevels. Cleaning the system is usually done like two times per year or less, as long as you don't have light on the water and use a anti-algae solution.

Be aware that watercooling still follows the laws of physics! You need airflow for good cooling, however passive systems (http://www.datorbutiken.com/se/default.php?artId=H2O-500798) are perfectly fine with most systems as long as you don't expect great overclocking results. Also stay away from stupid designs (generally one fan systems or systems with small radiators) as they tend to be highly priced (the hey it looks cool! designs) and have disappointing performance, spend a couple of evenings examining your options. Watercooling will generally give you good cooling or ok cooling and low noise (the loudest component in my watercooled system was the PSU, which is a lownoise model).

Pros: Good cooling, low noise

Cons: Price (often ~2-3 times the expense of a highend heatsink/fan), takes time to install, not ideal if you have a habit of being in your case and moving things around alot (you should test for leaks if you bumped into a hose for example)

People who has had accidents with watercooling has often ignored what other users of watercooling is screaming at them - take your time and read up on what you're getting yourself into and let the installation take the time it needs - including testing for leaks! :roll:
And people claiming that it's dangerous don't really know what they're talking about, they're just repeating stuff learnt in physics lessons (yes tapwater conducts a little electricity - which is one reason why it is not used in watercooling) or what others (who also don't have a clue) have said.

As a note for others thinking of watercooling; I've had two leaks in my system with water running over components with the system powered on. Once a loose hose with a very small leak, mere drops fell on a NIC. And once the plastic on my cpu block cracked (bad mounting) and fairly large amounts of water washed over the motherboard (say up to 1/5th or even 1/3rd of a deciliter) while running. And NOTHING was damaged.
Both times it was my fault for not testing and examining the installation enough. The cpu block cracked after 1/2 a year in pretty much around the clock use (I had mounted it 180 degrees wrong:oops:). And I'll be watercooling my system in a month again (not enough cash for gpu block yet) and there's some pretty expensive components that I wont even worry about destroying because of the watercooling - because I know what to do and what not to do.

I've actually started to think about mounting a laptop harddrive in my computer to reduce noise as I fear that my very quiet Samsung P120S (http://www.tomshardware.com/2005/04/27/samsung/page8.html) will be making the most noise. And this will be a high end computer with a heavily overclocked dual core opteron running fully loaded around the clock. So I hope I've encouraged some of you to take the step to watercooling.. You'll be amazed at the simplicity of it and how quiet your system becomes. If you want advice don't hesitate to ask ;)

[karlotta]

...(deionized water will not break your computer, it's not really conductive, and leaks tend to be small) ... Ok ill fill a bathtub up with deionized water, and u get in, then ill toss a pluged in radio...lol Not "realy" conductive!. Distilled then deionized would be the bestchoice in a water system, and a leak would still be a bad bad thing. But the quality of water is very suspect if u dont know where it realy came from.

[nutball]

I've been watercooling for a year or so now (for the purposes of silence, not for overcl0ckz0r to getz my fram3z up or any of that shite). The upside -- yeah a decent w/c setup will cope with any heat you want to throw at it and do so (generally) in a very quiet manner. The downside -- besides the expense it's a bloody PITA to set up and to alter. Swapping a graphics card becomes a major operation.

It's stopped me fiddling with my rig, which in turn has meant that I've mucked it up less, and I've spent less random money on it. But I've had less fun in many ways. I'm rebuilding in a few months and my new setup won't be w/c; silent cooling tech has advanced a fair bit in the past few years so I can achieve what I want without the old H2O.

[Sxotty]

Don't be afraid to get yourself a watercooling kit! Just make sure you read up on it before you install it. Watercooling is perfectly safe (deionized water will not break your computer, it's not really conductive, and leaks tend to be small) ... and use a anti-algae solution.

This part annoys me

If you add ions back to the solution then suddenly it will conduct electricity again, I am not really sure why they therefore insist you use DI water...

In addition it is likely that your motherboard has residual material that will cause the water to be contaminated in a leak.

BTW my leak was in the pump, that worked fine for months and then just began leaking. And no it actually did not do any damage to components, b/c I had the pump on the bottom of the case, but it was still quite a mess.

It was a swiftech kit btw, I got an enheim pump afterwards and it worked flawlessly, now though I have a different mobo and CPU and the wateblock won't fit so there is no use to the system till I get a new block.

Nuttball has a very good point too, I muck about in my rig all the time swapping something or other, and the watercooling is to much of a pain to accomplish that. If you set it up andleave it though it might well be worth it,but I am changing CPU, video crad, mobo, and HDD quite often as new deals come and go.

[Frank]

If you want the best performance for your money, I think the water / phase cooling systems are becoming a cheaper option than buying that very best processor. Especially something like this (http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27340).

Mainly because we hit the wall, for air cooled speeds. They won't improve much, if any, anymore. And while multi-core is interesting, it won't offer a large speed improvement today, with current applications.

[Cartoon Corpse]

i just noticed. of the 2 build to order companies (why not more?) for crossfire (from ati website) 1 (all american computers) is watercooled. monarch is aircooled.

all american rig has fewer options. and what i'd like to build is around $5200
monarch has more options and is around $3200 (w 2x the RAM (4G) too)

equivalent fx60, dual x1900 512M (xtx and crossfire), 620W PSU.

2 grand for water cooling? or just markup philosophies?

[Frank]

You can get phase cooling (MUCH better!) for 300. See the link above. And you would be better off building your own rig in any case.

[Cartoon Corpse]

since im not a hardware expert. i look to the builders for combos or brands that are likely to work. im afraid i wouldn't get compatible or proven combos just selecting components from a catalog.

unfortunately i had hoped for more "build to suit" firms to survey.

[maaoouud]

The amount of electricity the water would conduct would most likely be very low indeed (imagine the resistance the water will have compared to the circuit - actually that may be the wrong way of thinking.. it should be how much current it'll actually conduct). I've heard of people getting water in the agp slot (high current - and one 12V line I think) and killing motherboard/graphics but those cases have been people not leaktesting and spilling alot of water into the slot (I don't know what additives were used and if deionized water was used). Besides some obvious planning when you install the kit enables you to pretty much avoid cases where you'd potentially get catastrophic results if the water found it's way there - you don't place the reservoir and pump above the vent for the PSU. Likewise if you're afraid of leaks just put some paper or some other material that'll soat up water and let it evaporate before it could become a problem.

Subzero (or any cooling that cools something to temperatures below ambient) cooling such as phase cooling has their own problems and are even more prone to problems with water since moisture can form once you have a temperature difference of more than 10 degrees. You're pretty much forced to use dielectric grease to insulate electrical components from potential moisture forming, or use insulating materials (tape plastic foam on the motherboard). Also worth noting is that they are not that quiet.

Sxotty part of the reason you use deionized water because it's clean and don't carry impurities that would cause corruption of the components (read waterblocks). Also the amount of ions present in the water heavily influences it's ability to conduct electricity. **

Also nothing prevents you from slobbering dielectric grease over the mainboard/components if you're afraid your mounting of the watercooling is poor. Well, apart from the obvious mess it makes.

** EDIT: Most watercoolers use waterwetter to improve the properties of the water (reduces the tension between watermolecules) and it has nice sideeffects - it'll help prevent corrosion from occuring and thus ions forming and algae don't like it.

EDIT2: Cartoon Corpse, unfortunately prebuilt watercooled systems are still ripoffs. A decent watercooling kit should cost you about 300USD, if you buy separate components then you can put a cheaper system together. However that does require some basic technical knowledge and alot of reading. Actually getting into watercooling requires many hours of reading and researching (I think I mentioned this before) but the benefits are very much worth the effort in my oppinion.
Nutball, regular silent cooling has improved alot, you're quite right about that. But you'll still be somewhat limited in what kind of system you can put together and still have it "silent". Also with watercooling the water is simply a conductor for the heat, you will still have to have fans (if not using passive cooling) just as a silent aircooling system would have, the diffrence is that you'll have a much larger area to transfer that heat to the air and can use more (more fans and slower/not as loud) quiet fans. I was very tempted to put together a system that was entirely passive, but the cost was simply too much for me to bear - those huge passive radiators do not come cheap.

[Skrying]

Gigabyte 3D Aurora <3<3<3<3

The case has THREE 120mm fans, one infront with a vent preinstalled, and two in back, and say for some reason you decide to go to water cooling later own you can use a good external raditor and the case holes on the back with rubber mounts just for that. Not to mention that if you want to you, you can get the version of the case with the grill side add a super thin filter material over it and then your graphics cards fans will suck some cool air through that too. Add a top blowhole to the case and its the best air cooling system I've set my eyes upon. Plus its sexy, IMO. <3<3<3

[maaoouud]

Oooh yeah.. that's a pretty good case! I can't believe I've missed it.. and the PRICE :shock:

[DudeMiester]

Or you could get OCZ $300 phase change unit, with MUCH more cooling power and sub-zero temps. I thinks it's quieter too.

[maaoouud]

I highly doubt that the upcoming OCZ phase change unit is anything near what I'd call quiet.
A good watercooling setup that's built to be quiet should be below 25db, or even 20db.
The OCZ unit seems to have space for one 12-14cm fan. That fan needs to remove something like 150W of heat I suspect. Sure as temperatures in the radiator goes up, compared to ambient air, the cooling efficiency of that radiator increases. And then there's the compressor that's bound to make a bit of noise (for comparision open the door to your refridgerator and let it's temperature rise to make the compressor go to work).

That said, I must admit to being extremely interested in the kit. At that price (I just hope it wont be overpriced in Sweden) and with a few modifications (maybe cooling it with a watercooler) it might just land on a level of sound that I could learn live with.:twisted:
Or I'll just have to move the computer out of the room and get longer cables :lol:

[Sxotty]

since im not a hardware expert. i look to the builders for combos or brands that are likely to work. im afraid i wouldn't get compatible or proven combos just selecting components from a catalog.

unfortunately i had hoped for more "build to suit" firms to survey.
You don't need to be an expert man, it is pretty failsafe in general. Worst case call up the company you are buying from and say will this work together they will tell you. Further you can always ask on here and people will hook you up with good info. Any motherboard from Asus, Abit, Tyan and some others not in my head right now will work well if you don't buy the first revision.

[Diplo]

Water cooling is old hat. Vegatable oil cooling is where it's at:
http://www.house117.co.uk/oilpc

http://www.twobeds.com/upload/userfiles/theoilpc/oil3.gif

http://www.twobeds.com/upload/userfiles/theoilpc/overall.gif

[Sxotty]

That was on toms as well, or maybe it was a link to it, but that is such a silly idea.

If you want to do something wierd get flourienert and use that, it is much niftier.

[Cartoon Corpse]

vegetable oil bath. whoda thunk?

[Sxotty]

vegetable oil bath. whoda thunk?
It had problems though, capacitance in the solution messed up the CPU, so it was basically completely useless IMO.

[fallguy]

You can get phase cooling (MUCH better!) for 300. See the link above. And you would be better off building your own rig in any case.

You cant cool the CPU, two GPU's, Chipset, etc witht that either though.

[Sxotty]

You cant cool the CPU, two GPU's, Chipset, etc witht that either though.
Well one could, but it would be a bigger pain yet again. Basically use water cooling, but use alcohol or something that will not freeze, and make sure it won't disolve the seals in the pump. Then run that through the phase change setup, you could get a mighty impressive system with actually fairly little work, but all the insulation and silicone sealant would be a big pain in the bottom.

[Albuquerque]

Here's my watercooling story...

I have an overvolted and overclocked X800XTPE along with an overvolted and overclocked Northwood 3.0C. I had strapped a huge P4 heatsink and 80mm fan to my X800 to keep it happy, and strapped a ginormous copper-and-aluminum sink to my P4 with a 92mm fan. I also had a 120mmx45mm exhaust fan and a 120mmx30mm intake fan to keep it all moving around, along with the two fans in my PSU and a fan on my northbridge.

It kept reasonably cool; 49-ish for the CPU and 54-ish for the GPU. But my computer desk is small, and due to room constraints the CPU had to sit up on the desk surface. With your CPU a mere 14-18 inches from your head, the fan noise was absolutely insane. I played with undervolting the fans, fancy duct work with cardboard, et al... But my choices were clear: silent air cooling at basically stock speed, or loud obnoxious air cooling at prime speed. OR do something entirely different.

I bought a Via Aqua 1300 from a local aquarium shop, bought a ton of PVC-reinforced hose, hose clamps and brass fittings from Home Depot, a pair of used waterblocks online and a radiator from NAPA. And a few extra 120mmx30mm fans from SVC. Total cost was around $250 including shipping and taxes and cost for buying a big hole-saw to cut through the top of my current PC case.

It took me a week to fabricate it all up and get it to fit within my case, and I'm not going to say it's an "optimum" setup because of the way air is drawn from inside the case through the radiator. Still... I silicon-sealed the entire housing assembly for the pump, I used silicon as an additional "sealant" on all the fittings, and I hose-clamped every hose around the brass fittings as well. I let it run in my bathtub for a week before I finally decided all was ok.

It's been in my rig now for almost two years. The four 120mm fans that push/pull air through the radiator are all running at 5v, and are essentially dead silent. In fact, my PSU fan at it's lowest speed makes more noise (Antec TP550, almost no noise anyway) and so do my pair of WD 250GB harddrives. I've flushed it twice since putting it in, and never once had any issues at all.

I didn't spend an inordinate amount of money, I didn't make it overly complex, I spent the time and paid attention to ensure that anything that might cause me leakage was solved before it became an issue. And (knock on wood) it has never caused me a single moment of grief.

With the fans at 5v and the room around 68F, my full-load GPU tems hover around 41c and my full-load CPU temps hover around 43c. If I want to create some noise, i can give the fans 7v and drop the temps by ~2c all around -- at 12v the temps drop into the mid/high 30's.

Based on my experience thus far, all my future rigs will be watercooled in the same way.

[Cartoon Corpse]

if i go aircooled then i should use 4 120mm fans? is that the latest/greatest ATX air solution?

i looking for a solution that's going to be safe and effective either way.

going from a 250W rig (1.4Gz, 1Grdram, 9700pro) to a 620W (fx60,dual 1900, 4G ram) seems like i need upgraded air cooling at the very least. if not liquid.

liquid colling is better (more efficient) right? (leak risks aside)

[DudeMiester]

I think the heatsink you use is a bit more important then the fan. In that regard ThermalRight is the right choice imho. An XP-120 or their new tower model will do you good. Also, make sure you have a clear path and plan the flow of air in your case. Don't just stick on a million fans, lol! Also, liquid cooling is only more efficent because you arn't limited by radiator size nearly as much as your are with a heatsink, and you can conduct the heat faster. Thus, there's no technical reason why a well designed and very large heatsink that uses something like heatpipes (a form of liquid cooling, lol) has to be worse then watercooling. In fact, some of these latest behemoths, like I mentioned, are on par with water for a much lower price.

fyi, the 4GB of RAM will do nothing but limit your RAM speed, as you know in 32-bit windows no app can access more then 2GB without being specially coded. Unless you have 64-bit windows and have apps that really do need 4GB, don't use more then 2GB!

[Sxotty]

You know the reference cooler for opteron dual core processors is actually a heatpipe solution and looks REALLY nice. I won't be able to overclock on it though since I am building the computer for someone else, but it looks like a thermaright (I thought it was thermatake) heatsink.

[DudeMiester]

ThermalRight and ThermalTake are two different companies. ThermalTake is a much larger company, and ThermalRight makes much larger heatsinks, lol. :lol:

[Skrying]

ThermalRight and ThermalTake are two different companies. ThermalTake is a much larger company, and ThermalRight makes much larger heatsinks, lol. :lol:

Not true really, Thermaltake makes very big heatsinks. The only real difference besides the size of the actual companies is that Thermaltake hasnt designed a truely orginal product in ages, instead they've been taking a smaller companies design, changing it slightly and then under cutting the smaller company. In fact, I pretty much hate Thermaltake....

[nutball]

It's easy to remember:

Thermalright do it right...
then Thermaltake take their designs...

[DudeMiester]

Well ThermalTake is a Chinese company. Copying is their greatest craft! lol. :lol: Even Mao's Red Flag limosine is a rip-off of a Russian limo (http://escape.news.com.au/story/0,9142,16665051-5001643,00.html). Sorry if I insult anyone, but that's the hard truth. Still I hope for the best, but I know some people who visit China often and every time I hear about what goes on down there, it makes me, as a proponent of equality, mutual respect and the environment, sick.

[Cartoon Corpse]

yeah i have an eye forward to 64bit....64 bit system waiting for vista. that's why 4G plan. didn't know installing it now would slow access to the 2G that 32bits can find.

over at the radion technical support im seeing people having heat issues. so im going to have to do some more homework to decide. don't want to get in a pickle.

is it common to choose the same case for an air or a water cooling solution?

[DudeMiester]

I don't know about case choice, but I can tell you about RAM. The problem is that the memory controller has to manage many more banks of RAM, and you've of course have 2 modules on each channel, eating more power and causing more electrical interferance on them. This all makes it harder for the controller, so as a result it has to either run the RAM at a lower clockspeed, looser timings or both. Of course, as time goes by and RAM density increases, this will change, namely because you can keep it at one module per channel. For example, the fastest 1GB DIMMs (Crucial Ballistix Z503) aren't terribly slower then the fastest 512MB DIMMs (BH-5) anymore.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=67762

[McDusty]

i was considering the water cooling option for my next system. Particularly the silent ones such as the Zalman Resorator.

But i think ill just be opting for a clever case like the Antec P-180 ( http://www.driverheaven.net/reviews/Antec%20p180%20review/index.htm).
Its expensive but supposidly very quiet and cool. It doesn't really follow the ATX form factor ... they have the PSU at the bottom of the case in a seperate compartment helping to keep the main compartment cool. And a decent/ quiet heatsink/fan such as the freezer pro. http://www.driverheaven.net/reviews/freezerpro/

My current case cooling is terrible, i've been using my CPU for 3 years now and its always in the 65-70 degree C range. Its still going strong though, so not quite sure what the obsession is with getting as low temps as possible

[Cartoon Corpse]

how long till BTX form factor gets up to speed? i think gateway? or dell? or someone of that stature offers 1 BTX based (or similar) rig. but i haven't heard much about it since i learned of it a year or 2 ago (to get us past 4Gz aircooled).

if it's such a boon to cooling efficiency why isn't it taking so long to come out?

[Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.]

how long till BTX form factor gets up to speed? i think gateway? or dell? or someone of that stature offers 1 BTX based (or similar) rig. but i haven't heard much about it since i learned of it a year or 2 ago (to get us past 4Gz aircooled).

if it's such a boon to cooling efficiency why isn't it taking so long to come out?
Last I heard is that the case manufacturers are fed up with Intel changing the spec every five minutes and not telling anyone, so they're not really supporting it. Given that BTX seems to be aimed at cooling the CPU at a time when CPUs are getting cooler per clock, coming with better temperature management software, cases with better air cooling, watercooling going mainstream, better air heatsinks, etc, the manufacturers are preferring to stick with ATX. BTX just doesn't seem to have the support because it doesn't offer anything compelling that people want over ATX that they can't already get one way or the other.

I guess Intel will have to give Dell a load of money to start shipping their machines with BTX form cases, motherboards and PSUs - but maybe Intel doesn't think it's worth that kind of money either?

[Cartoon Corpse]

so if i go with the 4 120mm fan solution, do you just get a case with all that preinstalled? or is it better to get a 'blank'? case and do fans myself...and except for making sure you're flowing the air THROUGH the case (ie not having 4 fans blowing air to the center of the case or exhausting from the center lol), is there much else to consider cooling (fan) wise?

then i suppose there is also the GPU fan(s) and all, suppose that makes 6 fans?

[DudeMiester]

As long as the layout makes sense and the fans move enough air, it doesn't matter how the case comes. Even if it has fans in a bad position, you can always move them yourself. Noise will also be a concern. If the case comes with cheap fans, it will be louder then necessary.

As for fan count, well you can have a case with 4, most higher end PSUs have 2, the CPU has 1 (but some tower heatsinks support 2), and the videocards will have 1 each. So that's 9 to 10 fans, lol.

[Cartoon Corpse]

i didn't know whether the CPU counted as one of the 4 120's or not.

9 or 10 fans! i figure i would get a case with fans installed or mounts pre placed in the 'standard' places as long as their isn't some uber secret to custom fan placement.

[Diplo]

The Akasa Amber 120mm fans (http://www.akasa.co.uk/akasa_english/spec_page/fans/spec_ak_183_l2b.htm) are a good choice for case fans as they're very quiet.

[Cartoon Corpse]

do the fans 'link' in series to 1 PSU connector or something? or do you need a separate one for each on the PSU? do i pretty much need to look for a PSU with the same number of connectors (and type) as the number of dohickeys in the box?

[AlStrong]

Ok ill fill a bathtub up with deionized water, and u get in, then ill toss a pluged in radio...lol Not "realy" conductive!.

The water would quickly have ions in them unless you and the tub walls are completely clean. :p

[swaaye]

Air cooling is anything but incapable of cooling today's stuff.

I find my dual core Opteron + X850 XT to be just as easy to cool as my old Athlon XP. I bought a $35 Artic Cooling Freezer 64 Pro which keeps the chip well below 50C Prime95'ing at 2.6GHz/1.46v. That's a cheaper and more effective cooler than my older $50 Thermalright SLK800. The cooler blows air directly at the case's rear exhaust fans and is rotatable on its base for different mobo layouts. Awesome design.... Combine that with Arctic Cooling's GPU coolers which exhaust air outside the case and your case temps are fantastic.

BTX is an Intel gimmick. It is extremely difficult to use with AMD CPUs because the RAM is too far from the CPU and the integrated controller has problems maintaining signal integrity. I've seen reviews of cases with those BTX-like ducts where the systems run hotter too.

[karlotta]

my Zalman 9500 is a nice frikin huge heatsink.
If the case has two 120mn fans, it would be more than enough. Four 120s is abit over the top, for case fans. The real solution after you have good case venting , is to get a AC unit for your room. Get your ampient down to 44f.....:razz:

[maaoouud]

If you have coolers on the graphic cards that vent the warm air out of the case and a couple of 12cm fans for air intake and one fan below the psu (thinking of ATX layout here) helping to vent the warm air from the processor out of the case then yes that will cope with the heat just fine.

Watercooling allow you to cool the parts with less noise but it's more expensive.

[DudeMiester]

i didn't know whether the CPU counted as one of the 4 120's or not.

I was talking about fans in general, regardless of size. Of course, the CPU fan plugs directly into the mobo, the GPU fans plug into the cards and the PSU fans have their own power source (they are in the power supply unit after all lol). Now that you mentioned it though, the largest heatsinks do take 120mm CPU fans.

Also, there's no reason why you need specifically 4 case fans either. There's no "magic number" or "uber-setup". Just use common sense, and make sure there is good airflow through the case and hence the temperatures are ok. It's that simple! :grin:

do the fans 'link' in series to 1 PSU connector or something? or do you need a separate one for each on the PSU? do i pretty much need to look for a PSU with the same number of connectors (and type) as the number of dohickeys in the box?

You can usually do that, but don't put too many on one line. You can always look at the amp output of the PSU in it's manual, and how much the fans are using by reading their power rating and doing some math. Generally though, it's a good idea to spread your load across your PSU connectors somewhat. Highend PSUs will usually have 2 12v rails (4 pin connectors are 12v), which means they've got 2 sets of regulators that split the available connections. You should balence the load between those rails to get the cleanest power.

Like I said, common sense. Make sure the air is getting to where it's needed and don't stress your PSU by attaching everything to one cable. It's only as complicated as you want to make it, lol. :lol:

[Cartoon Corpse]

thanks for that info. balance across the rails...got it.

[the maddman]

how long till BTX form factor gets up to speed? i think gateway? or dell? or someone of that stature offers 1 BTX based (or similar) rig. but i haven't heard much about it since i learned of it a year or 2 ago (to get us past 4Gz aircooled).

if it's such a boon to cooling efficiency why isn't it taking so long to come out?

AMD has also said they don't need BTX to keep their chips cool. It's also been said that the BTX form factor isn't a good fit with on die memory controllers, the motherboard is laid out with the Processor first, then the north bridge, then the south, and the RAM is next to the northbridge, not the CPU.

Then again, Intel wouldn't design a spec that's hard for their competitors to reach would they?

[Cartoon Corpse]

over at ibuypower they only offer water cooled cpu cooling + fan for their amd processors in the gamer fx category.

the budget still offers air cooled solutions but no amd x2 past 4800....and no fx past 57.

[NANOTEC]

http://www.hardwarezone.com/articles/view.php?cid=18&id=1712

[Cartoon Corpse]

im leaning towards liquid cooling now. especially for AMD.

also gateway has a whole article on BTX now (though they don't offer AMD of course). apparently they are offering a complete line of BTX form factor now.

that upcoming intel (claim to surpass AMD) offering may be why?

anyway thanks for all the input.

[Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.]

I was strongly considering water cooling for my next build what with it being so fashionable and now mainstream, but after putting together a mid-range gaming machine for a friend (Athlon 64 3500, 1 gig ram, three hard drives, DVD burner, passively cooled chipset, X1600, etc) , I think I'll stick with aircooling. A decent case, a few temperature controlled 120mm fans, and the new generation of quiet, aircooled CPU coolers and PSUs means you can build a very, very quiet aircooled case without resorting to watercooling, even for gaming.

If you want something absolutely silent (and don't count the noise from a water pump or PSU), or want to overclock, then watercooling becomes more attractive, but right now I'll stick with the simpler "less to go wrong" aircooling that is still very quiet for non-overclocked systems.

[Bad213Boy]

this is what i currently have:

Gateway (http://support.gateway.com/s/PC/R/600GxSeries/4410sp3.shtml) - scrapped that piece of crap and just using the motherboard, its a Athlon 64 3400

ATI Radeon x850 agp pro (http://www.buy.com/prod/ATI_Radeon_X850_PRO_256mb_AGP/q/loc/101/201701063.html)- this card can be flashed to get 16 pipes, but im not sure its worth it.

Soundblaster Audigy 2 ZS - Everyones standard.

Antec 500 SmartPower 2.0 (http://www.antec.com/us/productDetails.php?ProdID=26500#) - nice easy cable installing, reduces system clutter.

Cool Master Stacker 830 (http://www.barrys-rigs-n-reviews.com/reviews/2006/hardware/cmst830/cmst830_1.htm) - amazing unit, ill be able to install everything ill need for good looks (nice and clean setup), air flow, and liquid cooling.

Big Water 745 (http://www.thermaltakeusa.com/product/Liquid/DIY/cl-w0076/cl-w0076.asp) - not too sure if this pump will be able to handle my loop. also scapping the single internal/external radiator.

VGA Water Block (http://www.thermaltakeusa.com/product/Liquid/Upgrade/cl-w0038/cl-w0038.asp) - i figured if i ever flash my x850 card to open up 4 additional pipelines that this would come in handy.



ill show ya what im going to be working with. should be here by either monday or tuesday, hopefully.

Aqua Bay M1 (http://www.thermaltakeusa.com/product/Liquid/Upgrade/cl-w0032/cl-w0032.asp) - lets me know level of liquid system and indicates there is water flow.

Aqua Bay M2 (http://www.thermaltakeusa.com/product/Liquid/Upgrade/cl-w0021/cl-w0021.asp) - this will replace my internal/external radiator from the Big Water 745, also frees up an ugly looking fan mount.

Aqua Bay M3 (http://www.thermaltakeusa.com/product/Liquid/Upgrade/cl-w0031/cl-w0031.asp) - ive read its best to have your tank above the pump for bleeding purposes. should help in looping everything together.

HardCano 12 (http://www.thermaltakeusa.com/product/Accessory/a1845/a1845.asp) - lets me know if my pump is failing or something is about to explode!

Two Lazer LED Cannon Blue (http://www.coolerguys.com/840556051701.html) - threw these in for looks

Cyclo RAM Cooler (http://www.thermaltakeusa.com/product/Cooler/VGAnCHIPnMEM/cl-r0023/cl-r0023.asp) - looks cool and could be handy for OCing.

So far i havent had any problems installing the motherboard, power unit, or cards. ive noticed that the stacker has amazing amount of room to do just about anything. now if i can just figure out where all these plugs go :bang head

does anyone kmow if ill be able to carry out my loop with all these components. im scrapping the single internal/external radiator for the M2 to give it that clean look. i figured i can always just hook up that external 2 radiator anyways. i was planning on using 3/8" tubing but im not even sure if the pump will handle all this. can anyone help me out before i make a swimming pool out of my computer, lol.