View Full Version : How well can Gamecube do bumpmapping?
I know the hw supports it but how far can it go?
Many GC games do not have bumpmapping.
Another thing to note, Shrek GC had its bumpmapping removed. :oops:
Magnum PI
21-Dec-2002, 13:50
look at star wars rogue leader.
i read there is some bumpmap in this game.
Yes, Rogue Leader has some very nice bump-mapping and multi-layered texturing.
Super Monkey Ball uses bump mapping in a subtle way, and Star Fox Adventures puts it to good use as well.
I wonder why Shrek GC had it removed? Then again, I wonder why GC needs the game at all! :wink:
Kolgar
The two GC games I've seen with the most extensive use of bumpmapping are Rogue Leader and Starfox adventure. I'd say SFA uses it even more. It's all over the place in this game. Every surface that could benefit from bump mapping has it.
About Shrek, all the reviews for the GC version say it's a terrible game. The developer really didn't take the time to port it properly so the graphics part of the game probably suffered too. It's just a sloppy port.
Bump-mapping was removed from Wreckless for GCN as well.
I think it's more of the developers and less the hardware that's keeping high-quality Xbox-to-GCN ports away..
BTW, there appears to be a lil' bit of bump-mapping in Luigi's Mansion (the basement bricks) but maybe I'm wrong.
Like others said, its more of a developer's decision rather than hardware. And personally, im not too found of the whole gimmick of bump mapping EVERYTHING just for the heck of it, it makes everything looks like plastic. Its a nice effect if used in a subtle way. It also seems to be a western vs eastern thing also, everyone knows that xbox has more western support than eastern and vice versa for gamecube. Notice how pretty much all heavily bump mapped games on xbox are all from either european or north american devs, while there's barely any BM in the xbox japanese titles.
dont ask me why.....maybe cause japaneses arent used to the technology as much as the western devs ? (pc experience most likely) or its just an art decision.
There's BM in PN03, FF:CC, probably RE4 aswell but i havent really checked closely.
And you can bet factor5's next project will have it ;) (duh)
sergio_r
21-Dec-2002, 18:39
Like others said, its more of a developer's decision rather than hardware. And personally, im not too found of the whole gimmick of bump mapping EVERYTHING just for the heck of it, it makes everything looks like plastic.
yeah, does seem more a western thing. IMHO, bump mapping, when used well, is great.
mkillio
21-Dec-2002, 21:17
Time Splitters 2 has it on most of the bricks, i.e. in the siberia level and chicago levels.
cybamerc
21-Dec-2002, 22:02
Kolgar:
> Super Monkey Ball uses bump mapping in a subtle way
I have SMB and I don't recall a single instance of bump mapping in the game. Could you tell me where you believe it is used?
clem64:
> I'd say SFA uses it even more. It's all over the place in this game.
I haven't played SFA but aside from the water in the game I haven't seen more than a few surfaces that could be bump mapped. I think a lot of you are confusing great texturing with bump mapping.
> The developer really didn't take the time to port it properly so the
> graphics part of the game probably suffered too.
The way you've worded that sentence you imply the gameplay took a hit. The Xbox original is supposed to be shit as well :P
Cyborg:
> (pc experience most likely)
I don't see that as a valid reason. Aside from a few PC titles with EMBM hacks and the like there aren't many PC titles with bump mapping. It's often said that PC developers are better at exploiting the hardware because they are more up-to-date with the latest graphical effects due to frequent releases of new PC gfx chips but that is nonsense. Whenever a new console it is accompanied by titles that absolutely bitch-slap anything released on PC. On Cube it was RL and to a lesser extent LM.
> There's BM in PN03, FF:CC, probably RE4 aswell but i havent really
> checked closely.
There's bump mapping in FF:CC but I haven't seen any in the other titles you mention. That said it's really a quite common feature on the Cube... it's just mostly used for water.
Copied from the nvidia glossary:
Bump Mapping
A shading technique using multiple textures and lighting effects to simulate wrinkled or bumped surfaces. Bump mapping is useful because it gives a 3D surface the appearance of roughness and other surface detail, such as dimples on a golf ball, without increasing the geometric complexity. Some common types of bump mapping are Emboss Bump Mapping, Dot3 Bump Mapping, Environment Mapped Bump Mapping (EMBM) and True, Reflective Bump Mapping. Dot3 bump mapping is the most effective technique of the three.
Rouge Leader's use of BumpMapping is pretty obvious, but most other games on GC I didn't notice any BumpMapping as in "gives a 3D surface the appearance of roughness and other surface detail, such as dimples on a golf ball, without increasing the geometric complexity".
I'm only 60% through Starfox Adventures, but apart from Fox's Starwing I didn't notice any BumpMapping at all (but some nice fur shading).
Not that Gamecube couldn't handle it, but AFAIK most games just don't put it to an "in your face" use. There could be of course numerous games using "BumpMapping-calculations" for other matters than making walls bumpy or water reflective. Console developers can be pretty creative wth given ressources/capabilities, just look at PS2.
Halo and Rallisport are probably the best examples of bump mapping done well on Xbox imo.
Hi Zurich,
I agree.
cybamerc:
I too think there is some confusion about what BumpMapping is and what it looks like. Some people confuse it with specular highlights (it's shiny == BumpMapping), some with great Texture Detail/Artwork (looks bumpy == BumpMapping).
cybamerc
21-Dec-2002, 23:09
zurich:
> Halo and Rallisport are probably the best examples of bump mapping
> done well on Xbox imo.
I dunno... Halo doesn't use that much bump mapping and when it does there's a huge difference between the look of the bump mapped surfaces and the regular vertex lit surfaces. Rallisport I'm not so sure uses bump mapping at all. The ice (which is the only thing that looks remotely bumpy to me) could be done with a gloss map.
Shrek, while not artistically pleasing, is really doing some cool things. Every surface is bump mapped and shadow volumes everywhere. It was doing most of the things ppl are praising Doom 3 and Halo 2 for back in 2001 (obviously the quality isn't quite the same but it's still pretty impressive).
DeathKnight
21-Dec-2002, 23:18
Halo not using bumpmappig that much? It uses it on damn near every service. Lots and lots of DOT3. Rallisport uses it on a few surfaces including the ice.
cybamerc
21-Dec-2002, 23:24
DeathKnight:
> Halo not using bumpmappig that much? It uses it on damn near every
> service.
That's simply not true.
> Rallisport uses it on a few surfaces including the ice.
How can you be so sure? Have the developers talked about it? There is a certain flatness to the highlights that lead me to believe it's just a gloss map. And what other surfaces than the ice do you believe are bump mapped.
DeathKnight
21-Dec-2002, 23:32
That's simply not true.
Looks like you either haven't really played the game or you don't have a good eye for detail. Nearly every service is bumpmapped.
As for Rallisport, the ice may be the only surface that is bumpmapped. It's not just gloss. The bumpmapping is clearly visible.
DeathKnight
21-Dec-2002, 23:45
The keyword is nearly. There are surfaces in Halo that are not bumpmapped, but then again they didn't need the extra detail.
Here are a few examples (most all detail is achieved through DOT3 bumpmaps):
http://www.bungie.net/images/site/halo/screenshots/scrn_017.jpg
http://www.bungie.net/images/site/halo/screenshots/scrn_024.jpg
http://www.bungie.net/images/site/halo/screenshots/scrn_027.jpg
http://www.bungie.net/images/site/halo/screenshots/scrn_030.jpg
http://www.bungie.net/images/site/halo/screenshots/scrn_046.jpg
http://www.bungie.net/images/site/halo/screenshots/scrn_044.jpg
As for the Cube, I don't know of many games that have bumpmapping. I think it only supports EMBM and DOT3.
For Halo, well, to be completely honest, I don't really notice the bumpmapping that much until I turn on the flashlight. Then its like, :o This is especially obvious in the library and covenant cruiser. Lots of little subtle details on character models, vehicles, and stuff though.
(IMO DK's screenshots dont really do much for the argument :-? )
In Rallisport, the track is clearly bumpmapped. This is most obvious in the Ice stages (as you fishtail around the bumps move realistically), and tarmac (Desert tracks).
Most bumps aren't obvious until you have a directional lightsource on them, which is why you can clearly see them in the above instances (Sun on Ice & tarmac desert tracks, and Halo flashlight).
yipchunyu
22-Dec-2002, 03:32
will bm run on gc place great burden to it? People say MP is not technical advance as it don't use any bm. i just want to know that if they do it one any game with a modified engine (based on MP) can they still maintain 60fps?
Plasmatics
22-Dec-2002, 05:56
http://www.planetgamecube.com/media/017708443.jpg
http://www.planetgamecube.com/media/017708431.jpg
http://www.planetgamecube.com/media/017708309.jpg
http://www.planetgamecube.com/media/017708433.jpg
cybamerc
22-Dec-2002, 13:43
DeathKnight:
> Nearly every service is bumpmapped.
What the hell is "service"?
> The bumpmapping is clearly visible.
Anyone can claim that. I've stated my reason for believing that it's just a gloss map. Can you do the same?
Xbox screens:
http://xboxmedia.ign.com/media/previews/image/rallisport/moralli11.jpg
http://xboxmedia.ign.com/media/previews/image/rallisport/moralli4.jpg
http://xboxmedia.ign.com/media/previews/image/rallisport/moralli5.jpg
PC screen:
http://www.nvidia.com/docs/IO/3666/SUPP/large01.jpg
Where are the shadows? It's just highlights of varying intensity. The rest of the detail comes from the base texture.
Also, why would they use bump mapping just on the ice stage but use a gloss map on other courses in the game that could also benifit from bump mapping?
> The keyword is nearly.
Even that is stretching it.
> There are surfaces in Halo that are not bumpmapped, but then again
> they didn't need the extra detail.
Haha... please. The reason why everything isn't bump mapped is clearly performance. The framerate is bad enough as it is.
Every surface, regardless of detail, would benifit from the superior lighting.
Good job finding a few pictures that work to your advantage. I could find several more that work to mine. BTW, where's the bump mapping in pic 2? And pic 5 clearly illustrates the difference in quality I'm talking about. It looks awful.
yipchunyu:
> will bm run on gc place great burden to it?
It burns fillrate like everything else. If framerate is important stuff like bump mapping may have to go.
Plasmatics:
There is no bump mapping in pic 1 and 3. Not having played the game it's harder to tell with pic 2 and 4 but I'm actually leaning towards it being good texturing. If you look at pic 4 you can see the highlights on the walls change place. On the left side the highlight is placed on the bottom of the stones and on the right side it is placed on top. That would be the natural result if the texture is just repeated all the way round.
The fact that there's doubt speaks volumes of Rare talent for texture creation.
CaptainHowdy
22-Dec-2002, 15:26
Gamecube can do Bumpmapping very well, and has a lot of texture tricks like such up its sleeve, which is probally its only real up on its competition, mulitplatform games just dont use it, and Nintendo really doesnt make a point to yet, SFA did, RL did, but with metroid, instead of bumpmapping a surface,they just modeled the cracks in themselves.
Metroid Prime gives off a slight illusion of bump-mapping when you're rolling around with the Morph Ball.
It's not there, though. Maybe for that reason? (not worth the performance decrease since it looks good enough)
Metroid Prime gives off a slight illusion of bump-mapping when you're rolling around with the Morph Ball.
It's not there, though. Maybe for that reason?
Retro used the good ol polygons for bumps and cracks on the terrain's surface. Probably a question of physic, since the ball is so damn reactive to the terrain, better collision detection. Afterall, all bump mapping do is mimicking what polygons would look like. So if retro had enough TnL power left for having the terrain look rough (chozo ruins = best example of this) then they probably decided not to risk hindering the framerates with bump mapping.
Cyborg: Perhaps.
I'm talking about textures, though. The textures were rather normal (and relatively low-res, even) but looked so good.
It almost looks like there's bump-mapping on flat surfaces.
Just the texture artists i guess, there's no "magic" involved im pretty sure ;)
DeathKnight
22-Dec-2002, 20:17
What the hell is "service"?
Someone needs to brush up on their reading skills and learn how to figure out things from context. It's a spelling error.. supposed to be surface.
Anyone can claim that. I've stated my reason for believing that it's just a gloss map. Can you do the same?
And your reason for believing it's just a gloss map stems from you never touching Rallisport in your life.
http://www.teamxbox.com/images/games/ss/283/image4035.jpg
http://www.teamxbox.com/images/games/ss/283/image4033.jpg
http://www.teamxbox.com/images/games/ss/283/image4031.jpg
Gloss maps don't give the illusion of bumpy surfaces. The icey road is comprised of a base texture, then a bumpmap to introduce the illusion of higher surfaces, and then specular highlights are tossed on top. It really stands out in motion.
Even that is stretching it.
No, it isn't.
Haha... please. The reason why everything isn't bump mapped is clearly performance.
If that's the case then I'm surprised they got the performance they did in such a short time considering nearly every surface is bumpmapped. Kind of helps when you got the speed and horsepower of the vertex shaders behind it. You might want to look into Halo 2 where just about every surface is normal-mapped.
Good job finding a few pictures that work to your advantage.
Yeah, they do work to a degree.
BTW, where's the bump mapping in pic 2?
Everywhere. Even you should know that sometimes it may be difficult to convey bumpmapping through pictures if it's subtle. This leads me to believe that you've never touched Halo in your life either. I agree with what zurich had said. You have to see it in motion to appreciate it. Turn on the flashlight and it'll really jump out at you.
So, instead of refusing to believe something based on your own agenda and lack of experience, you should take our word for it. Either can it or go play Halo and see for yourself.
cybamerc
22-Dec-2002, 21:31
DeathKnight:
> Someone needs to brush up on their reading skills
I read just fine, thank you. You repeated the word several times and I don't have the ability to read minds.
> And your reason for believing it's just a gloss map stems from you
> never touching Rallisport in your life.
Why post more pictures then. Pictures that only help illustrate my point.
> Gloss maps don't give the illusion of bumpy surfaces.
Sure they do.
http://developer.nvidia.com/docs/IO/2653/ATT/practical_per_pixel_effects.pdf
http://www.ati.com/developer/sdk/rage128sdk/OpenGL/Samples/Rage128Specular.html
> If that's the case then I'm surprised they got the performance they did
> in such a short time
4.5 years is a short time?
> You might want to look into Halo 2 where just about every surface is
> normal-mapped.
Halo 2 isn't the topic.
> Everywhere.
Please.
> Even you should know that sometimes it may be difficult to convey
> bumpmapping through pictures if it's subtle.
Since when did subtle become a synonym for non-existant?
> you should take our word for it.
Your word has no value. Bias aside you don't seem to have much knowledge about the subject at hand.
Why post more pictures then. Pictures that only help illustrate my point.
If you haven't played Rallisport or Halo, then you don't have a point. And that ATI link on gloss maps doesn't look anything like the tracks in RSC.
DeathKnight
22-Dec-2002, 22:26
cybamerc, you really need to stop digging yourself into a deeper hole. Now it's becoming utterly pathetic.
Cybamerc:
The only place I remember for sure where SMB uses bump mapping is on the "Target" multiplayer game. The target surfaces look almost like the raised pattern of a basketball's surface.
Kolgar
CaptainHowdy
22-Dec-2002, 22:57
weird you would be talking about that, I was just Ice Racing in Rallisport..
I am going to go with merc, they do not use Bumpmapping, it doesnt look like it has depth to me ingame, the entire road has a form of reflective surfacing though, it looks fantastic.
DeathKnight
22-Dec-2002, 23:13
http://www.teamxbox.com/images/games/ss/283/image4031.jpg
This picture shows it off the best. It's bumpmapped. You're also playing the PC version Captain and the effect may come out looking different for you.
I remember reading a preview of Rallisport that specifically mentioned the great bump-mapped road surfaces. *shrug* Heck, it looks like bump mapping to me. :-?
Kolgar
CaptainHowdy
22-Dec-2002, 23:33
actually, my girlfriend gave my my present early, I am playing the Xbox version, the PC version though it looks better, runs like crap on my system, and everyone tells me its just me..(and though it says it supports force feedback, it doesnt seem to on my pad)..
it could be bumpmapped, it just doesnt look like it to me ingame, its barely noticable though, I mainly just see it where the sun hits the road, and its a bit of shine, otherwise, its not even visable.
DeathKnight
23-Dec-2002, 00:02
Hmm. I haven't played the game in quite a while so I'm just recalling what I saw when I played the game and from the screens.
So you got an Xbox now eh? ;) My sister's getting a Cube for Xmas so maybe I'll play some games on there.
CaptainHowdy
23-Dec-2002, 00:05
it is really hard for me to tell honestly, it goes by so fast, but it looks good, and thats all that matters, I think the roads in RS are the best, even the asphault has just the right amount of shine.
I would go with specular map and a gloss map for the rallisport shot, and yes i've played it, one of the best rally game out there.
If we want to be 100% sure, lets bring it to the 3d hardware & technology forum, these guys will take a few seconds to answer :p
Ozymandis
23-Dec-2002, 03:18
Heh. Rallisport Challenge is quite obviously bumpmapped.
http://nvidia.com/docs/IO/3666/SUPP/large03.jpg
Would nVidia trumpet gloss maps as "pixel shading"? I wouldn't think so.
Would nVidia trumpet gloss maps as "pixel shading"? I wouldn't think so
Uh why not? pixel shading is just a buzz word for the combiner anyway, bump maps and gloss maps go through the same paths, just different algorythms. Bump mapping isnt any more important than gloss maps and vice versa.
For bloddy sake, it's a freaking bump/normal map. It's NOT a gloss map. Anyone that's actually worked with some bitmaps to make different levels of gloss on a 3D character would know that you can't fake height with it. you only get 256 levels of gloss if I remrmber right. Infact, the icy road surface in ralisport has the same gloss value all across it. The bump/normal map gives the illusion of height and the lights takes that into account.
It could even be embossed bump mapping instead of dot 3 (although I think it's most likely a normal map), since the chip in xbox supports all the bump mapping formats. Also as far as nvidia is concerned, bump mapping falls under "pixel shading".
You guys that haven't played the bloddy game before need to stop talking about what you haven't seen. it is 100% bump mapping on the ICE levels without any doubt Imo.
CaptainHowdy
23-Dec-2002, 12:19
I'm just not seeing height, I am seeing a darker reflective surface mixed in with snow, the last screen shown actually shows well that its just a good texture.(and dont say it isnt reflective, because it reflects)
This is a gloss map. Notice how the road surface doesn't look bumpy. It's flat and ares of the track are masked out with the gloss map.
http://www.nvidia.com/docs/IO/3666/SUPP/large04.jpg
cybamerc
23-Dec-2002, 12:23
DeathKnight:
> cybamerc, you really need to stop digging yourself into a deeper hole.
> Now it's becoming utterly pathetic.
The only one who is digging himself into a hole is you. I haven't ruled out bump mapping but I've stated my reasons for thinking it's a gloss map. You've completely failed to provide any logical argumentation and instead resort to posting pictures (that don't exactly help your case) and insults.
When you start making sense you can act smug. Until then... begone.
Kolgar:
> The only place I remember for sure where SMB uses bump mapping is
> on the "Target" multiplayer game.
Hmm... I will have to check that later. It's been a while since I played the game but I can't say I've ever noticed any bump mapping.
Ozymandis:
> Would nVidia trumpet gloss maps as "pixel shading"? I wouldn't think so.
Why not? That's what it is.
Qroach:
> This is a gloss map. Notice how the road surface doesn't look bumpy.
It doesn't look bumpy because the specularity has been toned down and aside from the cracks in the road the specularity is pretty uniform. The underlying texture also has something to say.
Captain,
They are specular highlights. that's what gives the impression of depth. The darker/deeper areas aren't recieving the light, so you won't get the highlights on those areas. It's possible to do specular and diffuse dot3 bump mapping in a single pass.
Cyber,
It doesn't look bumpy because the specularity has been toned down and aside from the cracks in the road the specularity is pretty uniform. The underlying texture also has something to say.
That's basically a load of BS. even if they just turned the specularity down on the paved road surface it would still give the appearence of bumps. The icy roads are bump mapped where the non icy roads, or paved surfaces in the game are are NOT bump mapped. You need to play the game and/or shut up about it. I'm so tired of seeing you troll like this.
Why does RSC bumpmaps just disappear halfway?
Back to topic, many GC games do not use bumpmaps is mainly because they cutdown on the Cube fillrates? I wonder how heavy is bumpmapping on GC?
cybamerc
23-Dec-2002, 14:07
Qroach:
> even if they just turned the specularity down on the paved road surface
> it would still give the appearence of bumps.
So now you agree with me that it is possible to make things appear bumpy with a gloss map? You make little sense.
> I'm so tired of seeing you troll like this.
Who the hell is trolling you fucking dolt? It's always like this with you Xbots. "Oh noz.... teh mean man si saying our XBOX can't do teh bumpy maps." I am not ruling out that the ice is bump mapped but based on screen shots I see no reason to believe that it is. Other ppl who have the game seem to agree with me. The biggest X-drones on this board obviously disagree.
But please explain to me how saying that something is gloss mapped constitutes trolling? Are you that much of a brainwashed gfx whore that anything below bump mapping isn't acceptable. If so, you're a fucking sad excuse for a human being.
Fuck... I might as well be talking trash about your mothers. The reactions are every bit as rabid.
So now you agree with me that it is possible to make things appear bumpy with a gloss map? You make little sense.
No, try reading it again! you seem to have a comprehension problem. I said turning down the speculaty wouldn't make a bump map look any flatter, or turning up specular reflections wouldn't a gloss map appear to look like a bump map. The point is they are NOT using a bump map on the paved surfaces, but they are ont he ICE surfaces. You're clearly wrong (as usual). if you saw it in motion in frotn of you, you'd see it.
The fact you won't listen to the people that have the game, and continue to argue your points with no ground to stand on is exactly WHY people call you a troll.
Who the hell is trolling you fucking dolt?
YOU are trolling, you little kiddie. Everytime you open your mouth about xbox, it's another troll statment. you do the same thing day in and day out. look at this, you're arguing about an effect in a game you haven't actually seen. Arguing about something in a game with people that actually own it, is what a troll does. When it comes to xbox, or anything on xbox, what your're saying simply can't be trusted/listened to, since you're 9 times out of 10 NOT correct and or your statment is tainted with a biased approach. Plain and simple.
Ozymandis
23-Dec-2002, 15:36
I think in the end, who cares? There are plenty of other Xbox games that most certainly use bumpmapping. Halo, GUNVALKYRIE, Panzer Dragoon Orta, Bloodwake, among others.
cybamerc, I don't know if I'd call you a troll... but you have the dirty mouth of a 14 year old child, and it's kind of annoying seeing that language in almost every single one of your posts. :roll:
Johnny Awesome
23-Dec-2002, 16:10
Cybamerc is a little dense at times. He can't tell a gloss map from a bump map. Foolish kid should go back to school. :D
cybamerc
23-Dec-2002, 16:58
Qroach:
> No, try reading it again! you seem to have a comprehension problem.
Maybe if your writing skills weren't botched I'd have an honest chance.
> I said turning down the speculaty wouldn't make a bump map look any
> flatter
What bump map? You've already said that the paved road wasn't bump mapped.
This is a gloss map. Notice how the road surface doesn't look bumpy. It's flat and ares of the track are masked out with the gloss map.
That's basically a load of BS. even if they just turned the specularity down on the paved road surface it would still give the appearence of bumps.
Please note that you were talking specifically about the paved road.
There are severe continuity issues in your posts. I can't be bothered making sense of something where I have to make guesses to get a meaning out of it.
> The point is they are NOT using a bump map on the paved surfaces, but
> they are ont he ICE surfaces.
Why did you specifically mention the paved road in both your examples then? Either you're backpeddling or you're one confused individual.
> You're clearly wrong (as usual).
Nonsense. There are ppl who have the game that agree with me. It's not that clear cut.
> if you saw it in motion in frotn of you, you'd see it.
I admit, that the possibility exists. As I've pointed out several times I'm basing my opinion on screenshots.
> The fact you won't listen to the people that have the game
I do. It just so happens, that the ones who have been able to formulate proper arguments are also the ones that agree with me.
> and continue to argue your points with no ground to stand on is exactly
> WHY people call you a troll.
People = you and Johnny (not so) Awesome. What an overwhelming opposition!
> Everytime you open your mouth about xbox, it's another troll statment.
Why? How? If you can't concretize your complaints I can't take them seriously.
> you're arguing about an effect in a game you haven't actually seen.
Which I have made sure to mention several times. That said I have seen screenshots and noone has been able to offer compelling counter-arguments to my claims.
> Arguing about something in a game with people that actually own it, is
> what a troll does.
What about the ppl that have the game and are of a similar opinion?
> since you're 9 times out of 10 NOT correct
Impressive! May I gander a peek at the research that this statistic is based on?
Johnny Awesome:
> Cybamerc is a little dense at times. He can't tell a gloss map from a
> bump map. Foolish kid should go back to school.
Another insightful post from Johnny Awesome. I'm so glad you find the time to share your wisdom with the rest of us in between writing all those informed console articles.
Bump mapped, not bump mapped... Whatever the case, this thread has been good for a couple of good laughs.
Thanks, all - and happy holidays!
:D
Kolgar
Ozymandis
23-Dec-2002, 18:53
Hey Kolgar-
happy holidays yourself :P
Happy holiday Kolgar! :)
And cybermerc, I'm not goign to continue arguing with someone that hasn't seen the bloddy game. The fact you keep arguing this is completley idiotic! It's bump mapped, get it through your thick skull.
I have the game(PC Version). It is bump mapped. Not everywhere but where it needs to be on some parts of the tracks.
It looks great and performs great too. However looking great and performing great does not maketh a great game. Fortunately this game plays rather splendidly too.
DICE has some serious talent. I think it'd be wise for MS to try and buy them out (if they haven't already).
CaptainHowdy
23-Dec-2002, 23:10
I'm used to Bump-mapping in Maya and 3DS max where it actually
deforms the model, which is probally why I dont notice..
Im sure you know this CaptainHowdy but DX bump mapping does not deform the polygons, all it does is add the illusion of height detail to 2D textures. It does work pretty well but it is just a hack.
Interestingly it was the BB's that made this technology. :)
Interestingly it was the BB's that made this technology.
BB did not invent bump mapping, they did invent the a specific bumpmapping technique EMBM. I believe it was Jim Blinn who first suggested the idea.
Sorry I should have been more clearer! :D
marconelly!
24-Dec-2002, 01:42
I'm used to Bump-mapping in Maya and 3DS max where it actually deforms the model, which is probally why I dont notice..
Wait a sec - isn't that called Displacement map?
randycat99
24-Dec-2002, 03:00
I would like to enter into the record, that it seems to me that it really depends on the scale of the bumping where you could potentially substitute specularity and gloss maps to good effect. If the bumps are fairly small and shiny (such as that ice road) or perhaps a glittery rock, then that would seem to be a good candidate. At that point, you really can't discern the height of the bumps (especially if they are zooming by at speed), but you can see how they play on the light (essentially a bumpy specular effect). If the bumps are not shiny, then the bumpy effect is dramatically toned down (there's nothing for the light to play on), unless the bumps are fairly large or you are looking at them at very close proximity. At the other extreme, large bumps or intentional displacements would have to be done via genuine bumpmapping technique to properly exhibit the deformation of the textures (which would be visible at that point and remains as the primary cue in the absence of any specularity effect).
CaptainHowdy
24-Dec-2002, 05:58
I'm used to Bump-mapping in Maya and 3DS max where it actually deforms the model, which is probally why I dont notice..
Wait a sec - isn't that called Displacement map?
not that much, just to where it really looks like grooves, those shots look more like great textures than bump mapping, mainly because I havent seen what BM looks like in game enough to tell which is which.
Simon F
24-Dec-2002, 10:13
Interestingly it was the BB's that made this technology.
BB did not invent bump mapping, they did invent the a specific bumpmapping technique EMBM. I believe it was Jim Blinn who first suggested the idea.
ERP, You are 100% correct.
The landmark paper is Jim Blinn's "Simulation of Wrinkled Surfaces" which appeared in Computer Graphics (SIGGRAPH) in 1978. I think that's a little before BB's time :P
MrSingh
25-Dec-2002, 04:52
for those of you who are arguing about rallisport's surfaces, I don't care if it's a gloss map or real bump mapping.
the ice looks bumpy in game and looks GREAT in motion.
randycat99
25-Dec-2002, 05:15
for those of you who are arguing about rallisport's surfaces, I don't care if it's a gloss map or real bump mapping.
the ice looks bumpy in game and looks GREAT in motion.
Essentially, that is all that should matter to the end user. :)
Couple of points.
Halo's got bump maps on every surface, except for: Select ground terrain (not night level). Master Chief (he's just specular and a detail map), special effects (duh), and various foliage. Where cybamerc thought there was no bump mapping, it was just bump-mapping in a highly ambient environment, where it is less pronounced.
The ralisport ice surfaces are bump-mapped. The way to tell is that gloss maps have a fixed specular multiplier, so the surface appears to be completely matt in areas, regardless of viewer angle. You can clearly see the ralisport surfaces are completely washed out from above, yet have very pronounced variations from angles. Once you've used both methods you'd realise they are unmistakable.
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