View Full Version : Why Nintendo Won't Grow Up
Fantastic article on Miyamoto and his influence on the gaming industry. Quite a few quotes from developers such as American McGee.
What do they all say basically?
1) Miyamoto is a god
2) Miyamoto should be working on adult games and blow the sh*t out of them the way he does all his other games. American McGee especially feels Miyamoto could make adult games of such caliber that they'd be yet another paradigm shift in the industry.
He gave an example of GTA, with Miyamoto's genius tacked on. *shudder*
3) Miyamoto is a god
4) They do pose the question of if Miyamoto is losing his touch with the gaming world as it "grows up". American Mcgee brings up that point. But still, everyone says... see point 5.
5) Miyamoto is a god
That about sums it up. Nice article.
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.01/nintendo.html
CaptainHowdy
11-Dec-2002, 21:55
very good read,
I think though, people should respect Shiggy, he has his Moral code,
and he does things the way he sees fit, he sacrifices loads of cash, for
creative freedom.
The gaming industry is growing up, but I think that there's definitely room for Nintendo's trademark "kiddy" games.. if they remain as fun as they are now and have been in the past. Although, I do agree with American that Miyamoto and EAD could make a kick-ass mature title.. but for the time being it doesn't seem like that's their focus.
Actually, Metroid Prime is sort of what happens when you mix Miyamoto/Nintendo with darker themes..
MP kinda fits the "kick-ass mature" description.. ;)
Magnum PI
11-Dec-2002, 22:06
i think that mario was a carpenter in the donkey kong period. he become a plumber after that.
i dislike seamus bleackley comments..
"He's reinforcing stereotypes about games, not pushing them to a place where they can become something different and truly awesome."
what a sentence to sum up miyamoto contribution... what did this guy who looks miyamoto from so high ? does he think he will teach a veteran of miyamoto caliber how to do his job ?
and the article goes on saying about miyamoto games: "Even if his game never appeal to adults,"
i find miyamoto stuff appealing and i'm 29.. should i see a doctor ?
again the same BS.
dislike seamus bleackley comments..
"He's reinforcing stereotypes about games, not pushing them to a place where they can become something different and truly awesome."
Seamus has no buisness talking about image or stereotyping; his image is about as cool as the XBox's. Red or bleached blond hair and stud earrings. Somone tell this guys thats not cool anymore, nor is seeing his ass promoting video games reaching out to have mass market appeal anymore than listning to John Carkmack <insert bowing smilie here>.
For this guy to lecture a legend on whats "in" or "cool" or "good" with gaming is like taking fashion lessions from.... Michael Jackson or Vanilla Ice <shutter>
Johnny Awesome
11-Dec-2002, 22:54
Seamus is cool, to us Xbox geeks anyway. :)
The article overdoes it, by attibuting things to Miyamoto that he didn't really invent like 3D worlds. Doesn't anyone remember Bard's Tale or the Ultima Series?
It is a good overview of why Nintendo is kiddy though.
Seamus is cool, to us Xbox geeks anyway. :)
The article overdoes it, by attibuting things to Miyamoto that he didn't really invent like 3D worlds. Doesn't anyone remember Bard's Tale or the Ultima Series?
It is a good overview of why Nintendo is kiddy though.
bard's tale was not a 3d world, it was just moving on a grid. What about 3d gameplay ??
same for ultima. ultima7 was 2d and ultima8 was isometric.
Tomb Raider and Mario64 were the first real 3d working games
this article is a good overview why Lorn Lannings is a stupid guy.
Magnum PI
11-Dec-2002, 23:05
i don't see what was that much 3D in bards tales. you mean the subjective view, Ã* la dungeon master ?
i remember games like "mercenary" that was released for 8 bits computers
http://www.geocities.com/paris/7150/m1pics.htm
it's a 1985 game..
and i remember some others i played on amstrad CPC, even with flat-shaded surfaces (abysmal framerate).. too bad i don't remember their names..
i don't see what was that much 3D in bards tales. you mean the subjective view, Ã* la dungeon master ?
i remember games like "mercenary" that was released for 8 bits computers
http://www.geocities.com/paris/7150/m1pics.htm
it's a 1985 game..
and i remember some others i played on amstrad CPC, even with flat-shaded surfaces (abysmal framerate).. too bad i don't remember their names..
the first 3d games I played were on the 3do, but they were not in the same league as the games on the N64.
Tagrineth
11-Dec-2002, 23:12
He also pioneered a slew of features, from 3-D
It says he pioneered, not he created.
And Star Fox on SNES was quite possibly the first truly main stream 3D rendered game, and one of the first to be 100% 3D.
Brimstone
11-Dec-2002, 23:13
The article has quotes from Seamus Blackley and American Magee. Why? They aren't any near the same level of of a Miyamoto. It is hard to find any on the same level as him, but I'm sure the jouranlist could have found some better game designers than those two. Neither is Lorne Lanning but at least he was involved in creating a major launch title for a console that had classic Miyamoto style elements.
Johnny Awesome
11-Dec-2002, 23:33
Well, considering the reference was to early Zelda games, I think the Bard's Tale comparison works. It was just as much a world to explore as Zelda was. Miyamoto has passed from reverence into myth IMO. He's great. He's made a lot of great games, but it's to the point now where people exagerate his accomplishments.
He's done a world of good for platformers and action/RPGs, but nothing for driving, sports, or fighting at all. Nothing for story or narrative or complex characters. He's just a guy that made really good simple and super-popular games. He deserves praise, but at times it gets WAY out of hand.
Tagrineth
11-Dec-2002, 23:34
Could be because they're recognisable names.
It would've been better to find someone from SEGA, I'm sure someone over there has comparable experience.
Luminescent
12-Dec-2002, 00:33
Someone like Yu Suzuki.
And Star Fox on SNES was quite possibly the first truly main stream 3D rendered game, and one of the first to be 100% 3D.
How do you define "mainstream"? There were lots of 3D games on the Amiga and Atari ST long before Star Fox.
Even Elite on the C64 has to be mainstream enough to fit as 'the first truly mainstream 3D rendered game'.
*G*
I can see why some Nintendo fans would jump at Seamus' comments, but I think he summed up the feelings of a sizeable portion of gamers out there.
As for what CaptainHowdy said, heh, I think he would be sacrificing money for innovation if he were to make a fresh mature/grown-up oriented game, rather than his same-old same-old, not vice versa. 40 million copies not enough spare change for the man?
I don't know, I think men like Yu Suzuki have done a lot more for the world of gaming than Miyamoto.
CaptainHowdy
12-Dec-2002, 01:45
I can see why some Nintendo fans would jump at Seamus' comments, but I think he summed up the feelings of a sizeable portion of gamers out there.
As for what CaptainHowdy said, heh, I think he would be sacrificing money for innovation if he were to make a fresh mature/grown-up oriented game, rather than his same-old same-old, not vice versa. 40 million copies not enough spare change for the man?
I don't know, I think men like Yu Suzuki have done a lot more for the world of gaming than Miyamoto.
thats about as ignorant as it gets..
talk of same old same old, after raving over GTA:VC in another post..
what did they innovate from the THIRD INSTALLMENT in that one?
thats about as ignorant as it gets..
talk of same old same old, after raving over GTA:VC in another post..
what did they innovate from the THIRD INSTALLMENT in that one?
:roll:
If you go back far enough, you'll see my rental impressions of GTA:VC were definitely less than stellar, simply because it was 'same old same old'. If you read my post about narratives, I brought VC up as a non-linear game that does well with character development and story telling [mostly due to shifting it froms second person to third person].
Definitely, DEFINITELY not "raving" over GTA:VC. That game is a 7.5/10 MAX for me.
Why should I have to clear things like this up? Can't you read it right the first time and not feel some urge to twist things to defend Nintendo from a very, very valid point of view?
CaptainHowdy
12-Dec-2002, 02:04
thats about as ignorant as it gets..
talk of same old same old, after raving over GTA:VC in another post..
what did they innovate from the THIRD INSTALLMENT in that one?
:roll:
If you go back far enough, you'll see my rental impressions of GTA:VC were definitely less than stellar, simply because it was 'same old same old'. If you read my post about narratives, I brought VC up as a non-linear game that does well with character development and story telling [mostly due to shifting it froms second person to third person].
Definitely, DEFINITELY not "raving" over GTA:VC. That game is a 7.5/10 MAX for me.
Why should I have to clear things like this up? Can't you read it right the first time and not feel some urge to twist things to defend Nintendo from a very, very valid point of view?
lets hear it, name ONE game in your collection that is fresh and original, that was completely designed from scratch by a new idea by the developer...
every game big on your little PS2 is just a rehash of something someone else already did, every RPG is EXACTLY the same, only the stories differ, and not even that much, every action game is pretty much the same, and 85% of the games are modeled after something Miyamoto created.
Miyamoto isnt even doing rehashes, People would riot in the streets if he did not keep up old franchises, every time he takes it to a new place, he doesnt do that, he hired teams to upkeep the franchises, while he plays around with new ideas, thats where Pikmin came from, the only new idea in console gaming in years....
Tagrineth
12-Dec-2002, 02:12
every game big on your little PS2 is just a rehash of something someone else already did, every RPG is EXACTLY the same, only the stories differ, and not even that much, every action game is pretty much the same, and 85% of the games are modeled after something Miyamoto created.
I wouldn't say every RPG is exactly the same by any means, even the various Final Fantasies have tweaked the overworked ATB engine :)
But seriously, play Grandia II, then play Dragon Quest VII... they're pretty darn different. :)
Tangrineth Grandia 2 first appeared on the DC
Captainhowdy even nintendo games can be said to be rehashes of each other. Almost every nintendo platformer seems to rehash the same basic platformer elements. It would be rather hard not to. Why don't we judge our games on their merits and not on whether or not you can find another game with an engine that possess similiar aspects?
Modeled after something nintendo did? I can't say that is true. How do you know they didn't come up with the idea first and that it just took some time for their dreams to materialize? Honestly, i can't say that anything miyamoto has done is absolutely amazing. He has turned out some fun games but then so have others. He is a very imaginitive person but i wouldn't say his contributions are worth more than other's as gifted or more so in the field.
Wow you're taking this personally.
But if you must.. try Ico on for size. Or Rez (although Rez' visual style is pretty much directly ripped off Tron :( )
From what I understand, Pikmin is a Lemmings / RTS hybrid.
Sony has stated many times that they recognize the fragility in franchises and would like to move to entirely new games/titles this generation, rather than rely on PSX brands (ie: Sly Cooper, The Getaway, J&D/R&C, Primal, etc).
Ugh I could type out a whole paragraph about constructively critiquing Miyamoto's work, finding valid faults/omissions, and due to this, how resentment could build amongst other camps of gamers... but you're frothing again and I'm tired and find sleep more appealing atm.
damn good point there zurich. ICO was a very interesting game. So was ZOE. Both had interesting and compelling manner of play.
As an aside, if you think hard to wrap your head about the concept..
There's a literary theory I studied in a Criticism class in University called (bleh) the "Intertextual Theory". It basically says that NOTHING is truely original, as everything we see, read, experience subconciously influences our own product/work. This holds for literature, music, art, and it would seem, video games.
Ofcourse, its purely a theory, but I absolutely believe in it. So before you start nitpicking about similarities with "my big PS2 list", think about that for a second.
Some designers like Yu-Suzuki have done everything from Racers, Fighers, Shooters, pseudo-RPGs, etc., while Miyamoto has (generally speaking) stayed confined to a select few genres. There are probably business reasons behind this, but its certainly enough to garner valid criticism from some groups.
Zurich: Pikmin and Lemmings have nothing in common outside of th' fact that they're both very enjoyable. :) You got the RTS part right, though. Pikmin is fairly unique, but the closest hybrid genre is probably either Adventure/RTS or Platformer/RTS.
BenSkywalker
12-Dec-2002, 02:30
Zurich
Sony has stated many times that they recognize the fragility in franchises and would like to move to entirely new games/titles this generation, rather than rely on PSX brands
Like GT3? Sony dumped the franchises that sucked, and wisely so. The biggest games on the PS2- MGS2, FFX, GTA3, GT3. I see a pattern emerging, just give me another minute and I'm sure I'll figure it out ;)
Some designers like Yu-Suzuki have done everything from Racers, Fighers, Shooters, pseudo-RPGs, etc., while Miyamoto has (generally speaking) stayed confined to a select few genres. There are probably business reasons behind this, but its certainly enough to garner valid criticism from some groups.
And none of Suzuki's work, as good as it is, is considered genre defining.
Legion-
Honestly, i can't say that anything miyamoto has done is absolutely amazing. He has turned out some fun games but then so have others. He is a very imaginitive person but i wouldn't say his contributions are worth more than other's as gifted or more so in the field.
Try and find someone in the industry that agrees with you. Miyamoto's games aren't without fault, none of them. That said, name me someone who has a track record as strong as his, or even close for that matter.
Tagrineth
12-Dec-2002, 02:32
Tangrineth Grandia 2 first appeared on the DC
Huh? I thought only Grandia Xtreme went to PS2? Oh well, I very much know that Grandia 2 is on DC, I'd probably be playing it right now if I had my VMU's... :lol:
All I said is not all RPG's are the same, not that there are original ones on PS2. And in fact there are, FFX plays very differently from its predecessors, but of course once again the ability system is horrendously broken and the battle engine is even EASIER to exploit... :lol::lol:
And apparently Breath of Fire V is doing things differently, but I don't remember the exact details...
Zurich
Sony has stated many times that they recognize the fragility in franchises and would like to move to entirely new games/titles this generation, rather than rely on PSX brands
Like GT3? Sony dumped the franchises that sucked, and wisely so. The biggest games on the PS2- MGS2, FFX, GTA3, GT3. I see a pattern emerging, just give me another minute and I'm sure I'll figure it out ;)
Ben, GT3 aside, I think you realize that every game you just listed was third / second party. They play by different rules. SCE's first party efforts are virtually devoid of PSX sequels, save maybe Arc the Lad, Everybody's Golf, and some other obscure japanese games.
Tagrineth
12-Dec-2002, 02:34
Try and find someone in the industry that agrees with you. Miyamoto's games aren't without fault, none of them. That said, name me someone who has a track record as strong as his, or even close for that matter.
Well, Blizzard technically has a one-step-away-from-flawless record... :)
BenSkywalker
12-Dec-2002, 02:36
SCE's first party efforts are virtually devoid of PSX sequels
For good reason, their first party offerings on the PSX overall sucked. Well, maybe sucked is a strong word but is sure as hell isn't like they were abandoning strong franchises. When a company builds a strong franchise they stick with it, even Sony(see GT). Sony realized how weak their franchises were, overall franchises are why the PS2 and even the PSX before it dominated the market(prior to Enix and Square hopping on board the PSX certainly didn't look dominant).
Tag-
Well, Blizzard technically has a one-step-away-from-flawless record...
Speaking of Blizzard- RPGs with differences- Diablo v FF, nuf said ;)
CaptainHowdy
12-Dec-2002, 03:04
Uhm, yes, Miyamoto sticks within certain gametypes, but the difference, is they are styles he invented, he started it all, there is pretty much nothing today that he did not invent and do first.
Ico is original? they invented every piece of its gameplay? funny, when I played it I felt a lot of old school adventure in there, unique in its art style yes, genre defying no..
my point is not to trash PS2, or these games, but to point out, you come in here, and lash out at Miyamoto for rehashing, which is crap, while you rant and play rehashes, yes, RPG games tweak this, and tweak that, but there are not half as many differences between Final Fantasy VII And Final Fantasy X, as there are between SM64 and SMS(and not half as much time actually getting to play your game either)..
to me, its like you have to do research to find something to critisize the man on.
Magnum PI
12-Dec-2002, 04:03
He's done a world of good for platformers and action/RPGs, but nothing for driving, sports, or fighting at all.
is it a problem ? should he have gone games in every genre to deserve recognition ?
should he care about driving, sports or fighting ?
Nothing for story or narrative or complex characters.
so what ? is he a videogame creator or a novel writer ?
He's just a guy that made really good simple and super-popular games.
it is not that common.. and he did more than that. he contributed a lot to write genres, mainly plateformer and action RPG, while so much ppl are copying others works (if not miyamoto's)
and he created original and charismatic characters and worlds.
He deserves praise, but at times it gets WAY out of hand.
there is not that much people with such a career and such a contribution to the videogames..
http://us.imdb.com/Name?Miyamoto,+Shigeru
i don't think he's overrated, i see so much people disregard his work as "kiddy" only because he makes mainstream stuff and not hardcore gamers or libidinous teens stuff.. i see this as a quality rather than a default.
Magnum PI
12-Dec-2002, 04:18
Someone like Yu Suzuki.
not quite the same track record. let's compare.
http://us.imdb.com/Name?Miyamoto,+Shigeru
produced 37 games
directed 16 games
http://us.imdb.com/Name?Suzuki,+Yu
produced 2 games
directed 8 games
and don't even compare sales..
CaptainHowdy
12-Dec-2002, 04:22
Nintendo has done nothing for driving, fighting,sports..
could have sworn I had Mario Kart, FZero, SSB:M, Mario Golf and Mario Tennis, Must have imagined those.
JacksBleedingEyes
12-Dec-2002, 05:06
LOL Magnum those links are very helpfull
Sure Yu came out with the two shenmues,
but they had too much hype about them.
(kinda why i bought them both)
They were "infused" with quality.
Miyamoto on the other hand producess quality.
Just look at the N64 for example (quality not quantity).
How can anyone compare those 2 track records
I mean I doubt we're ever going to ever see a Shenmue 3
(even though roumors are about)
And its not because the DC failed either.
Edit: Captain Howdy, super smash brothers and FZero are not directed or produced my Miyamoto.
Everyone should bow down to Miyamoto. He is actually one guy in this industry who is NOT overrated. As far as game design goes, I love American McGee. Alice was the last PC game I played. Also, I think everyone should keep the names of the two level designers in Metroid Prime's credits. Those guys (along with whoever thought up the design doc) are gonna be huge. I'm sure they've already gotten a hefty raise $$. I have'nt seen level design so fun since Zelda OOT..and probably wont again till Zelda WW or the Metroid sequel.
Yu Suzuki I though he made more games then those listed on that site.
like this game http://us.imdb.com/Title?0295009 who no one directed or produced... oh incase you don't want to look its Virtual fighter 3.... unless he decieded to skip that one.
Miyamoto has a much greater presence than Suzuki, but Suzuki is one of the most visionary designers ever.. so..
eh nintendo just shoves his face into everything where as yu likes to hide in his team. whats his team's name now hit makes or something
archie4oz
12-Dec-2002, 07:16
For good reason, their first party offerings on the PSX overall sucked.
While you may not be into golf games, Minna no Golf is a pretty damn good golf game. Each one has also gone platinum... As has XI...
Zurich's point is somewhat accurate in the sense that the various SCE branches have been rather aggressive in courting small studios that show potential or have had developed a notable title or two... (Naughty Dog, Insomniac, Suckerpunch, Incognito, Nana On-sha, Harmonix, Zipper)
As for those who say Miyamoto is holding back the game industry or that he needs to make more "mature" titles, I find the notion silly... He's under no obligation to make any games at all (other than it's his job :wink: ), and since he enjoys making games and has the relative freedom to make what he wants I don't see what's to complain about. While their sentiments at what Miyamoto could do for other games and genres are understandable, they kind've come off sounding as though their too inadequate to do the job... :-?
I mean Miyamoto's been sort of a hero for me since I was 5 years old, and Yu Suzuki and Hideo Kojima since I was 10 and 12 respectively however I don't think the industry needs them to step out beyond their percieved realms to push the industry to the "next level"... There's always others out there who will rise out of the works to create new fun and innovative games (Masaya Matsuura comes to mind)...
PC-Engine
12-Dec-2002, 07:32
I wouldn't say Miyamoto is a better game designer than Suzuki or vice versa. To even think that is ludicrous. They both have their own styles.
I enjoy Suzuki's games because most of them are adult/arcade oriented while most of Miyamoto's is for the young kid in me. I can't see Miyamoto making a game like F355 and I can't see Suzuki making a game like SMB. Ultimately what both game designers bring to the industry and for me is FUN :wink:
Colourless
12-Dec-2002, 07:40
I beg to differ about those comments about Ultima 7 and Ultima 8 not being 3d worlds. They may have been entirely sprite based, but both engines had 3d worlds. Everything has Width, height and depth. All objects have a 3d bounding box. All objects have x,y,z coords in the world. The only way you could say they weren't 3d is if you require they use polygons, or you require a non fixed view point. At the time, it would have been too slow to use texture mapped polygons, it wouldn't have looked as good, and using a fixed view point simplifies the object sorting.
Something you wouldn't know, Ultima 7 even used a z buffer to help with depth sorting.
Here's a screenshots of Ultima 8 with object bounding boxes shown:
http://www.users.on.net/triforce/u8wire.png
PC-Engine
12-Dec-2002, 08:09
Is U8 an orthogonally projected game like Diablo?
And Star Fox on SNES was quite possibly the first truly main stream 3D rendered game, and one of the first to be 100% 3D.
How do you define "mainstream"? There were lots of 3D games on the Amiga and Atari ST long before Star Fox.
Even Elite on the C64 has to be mainstream enough to fit as 'the first truly mainstream 3D rendered game'.
*G*
mainsttream is "sold to more than a few geeks" ;)
Elite sold 100k and was considered a success for its time. In the same time Nintendo games were already in the millions.
PC-Engine
12-Dec-2002, 08:27
What about games that used vector graphics like Battle Zone? That's true 3D AFAIC, it's just not shaded.
Magnum PI
12-Dec-2002, 09:32
Yu Suzuki I though he made more games then those listed on that site.
like this game http://us.imdb.com/Title?0295009 who no one directed or produced... oh incase you don't want to look its Virtual fighter 3.... unless he decieded to skip that one.
i think he was producer of virtua fighter 3.
some game credits are incomplete.
this may affect miyamoto titles too.
(i guess you only searched for suzuki's missing titles..)
you can update IMDB.
i searched on mobygames this title doesn't appear.
there is a more complete list of title suzuki worked here:
http://www.sega-rd2.com/prof/work_e.html
(but shenmue II is missing, and we don't know what was his role on each title..)
Magnum PI
12-Dec-2002, 09:41
eh nintendo just shoves his face into everything where as yu likes to hide in his team. whats his team's name now hit makes or something
IMO it's logical that miyamoto is more seen as his role is more important. i could imagine sega w/o suzuki, but i couldn't imagine nintendo w/o miyamoto. perhaps i'm wrong..
and would you want us to believe that yu suzuki is a shy and secret guy ? he gives interviews and he shows his face, like the others..
Why wont KCET grow small?
Why wont Bungie grow old?
Why wont AM2 get more sexually deprived?
What a stupid article.
Miyamoto do what he likes to do, do what he sees fit for Nintendo.
Not everyone has to do an "Adult" game. :oops:
PC-Engine
12-Dec-2002, 09:57
IMO it's logical that miyamoto is more seen as his role is more important. i could imagine sega w/o suzuki, but i couldn't imagine nintendo w/o miyamoto. perhaps i'm wrong..
I'll agree to that.
Elite sold 100k and was considered a success for its time. In the same time Nintendo games were already in the millions.
Elite was initially a BBC Micro game back in 1984, and has been converted to many a platform. I can assure you it sold rather more than 100K copies! A million copies would be much closer to the mark.
Elite sold 100k and was considered a success for its time. In the same time Nintendo games were already in the millions.
Elite was initially a BBC Micro game back in 1984, and has been converted to many a platform. I can assure you it sold rather more than 100K copies! A million copies would be much closer to the mark.
maybe, but you know nostalgia does inflate sales. For example, CIV1 sold 650K on PC when it was released, mch less that the buzz it generated.
of course, piracy does bias the analysis.
Na i just glanced an noticed there are about 15 games that i know of that weren't on the list(That he had some role in.)
would the first 3d game be star wars on the old apples ?
Its like how wolfinsten gets credit for being the first fps meanwhile ultima underworld was out at the same exact time if not earlier and no one remembers it.
archie4oz
12-Dec-2002, 10:14
BTW, one little thing that's been at the back of my mind... Does anybody know if Seamus or Lorne Lanning have any kids? Most dev's I've talked to that have kids do tend to have a different outlook about a great deal many things than those who do not...
Semus and Lornie, the 2 xbox whores, bashing Nintendo non "adult" games.....how surprising.......... :roll:
Magnum PI
12-Dec-2002, 10:39
Semus and Lornie, the 2 xbox whores, bashing Nintendo non "adult" games.....how surprising.......... :roll:
yes you're right, what a bad not to say strange choice..
and i agree w/ your other remark too..
for sure the typical miyamoto stuff doesn't satisfy the tastes of every gamer. (no one could satisfy everyone tastes..)
but why would he have to change ?
i prefer nintendo making deals w/ other companies like capcom and/or using new talents.. and miyamoto continuing to do what he does so well.
there is still a big audience for his stuff, and not only fans and kids..
and about the stereotypes: the stereotype i see the most these days is about violence and immorality. for many people videogames = slaughter, mass-killing, snipping, cars roberry, whores.... i think THIS is the stereotype that do much damage to the videogames and the gamers. and i see miyamoto works doing much good against it. this is true for rare gems like ICO too.
Bogotron
12-Dec-2002, 10:42
PC-Engine:
What about games that used vector graphics like Battle Zone? That's true 3D AFAIC, it's just not shaded.
There are games from the same period that used shaded/filled objects as well. Tau Ceti comes to mind, and if I remember correctly that was released in 1985 on the Spectrum 48k (review (http://www.mjwilson.demon.co.uk/crash/23/tauceti.htm))
Does the fact that I spent hours enjoying that game and it's graphics make me seem old? :D
If miyamoto wanted to make a resident evil game then let him.I'm sure it will be better than anything out there. If he doesn't let him make something else. I buy games for gameplay , fun factor and story. If he keeps makeing games that are strong in those three things I will keep buying them no matter how fuzzy wozzy it is .
PC-Engine
12-Dec-2002, 11:53
PC-Engine:
What about games that used vector graphics like Battle Zone? That's true 3D AFAIC, it's just not shaded.
There are games from the same period that used shaded/filled objects as well. Tau Ceti comes to mind, and if I remember correctly that was released in 1985 on the Spectrum 48k (review (http://www.mjwilson.demon.co.uk/crash/23/tauceti.htm))
Does the fact that I spent hours enjoying that game and it's graphics make me seem old? :D
I wasn't aware of that, however, don't feel bad I was playing Battle Zone at the arcades during junior high too :wink:
If you want to feel older . My parents bought an intelivison the year I was born :-)
Magnum PI
12-Dec-2002, 13:03
dislike seamus bleackley comments..
"He's reinforcing stereotypes about games, not pushing them to a place where they can become something different and truly awesome."
Seamus has no buisness talking about image or stereotyping; his image is about as cool as the XBox's. Red or bleached blond hair and stud earrings. Somone tell this guys thats not cool anymore, nor is seeing his ass promoting video games reaching out to have mass market appeal anymore than listning to John Carkmack <insert bowing smilie here>.
For this guy to lecture a legend on whats "in" or "cool" or "good" with gaming is like taking fashion lessions from.... Michael Jackson or Vanilla Ice <shutter>
i agree with you. i think that the attempts microsoft made to appear appeling to younger people during the xbox promotion were risible.
seamus with his wanabe-cool look.
and even the billionary bill gates wearing xbox promotionnal clothes/
like in this picture:
http://www.realidadalternativa.com/xbox/noticias/lanzamiento_japon/bill_gates.jpg
or here:
http://www.games-power-world.de/15.11.xbox/15.11.gates3.jpg
imo it seems so fake.. i think (i hope) people are not that gullible .
the feeling i have is he disguised himself in order to please the stereotype of gamer his marketing team dressed. i see it as a lack of respect of his customers. what's next ? tatoos ? skateboard ? smoking pot ?
i'm ready to accept i'm exaggerating a little bit.
fortunately they didn't say in this article that miyamoto should dress like a schoolboy to please his kiddy audience.
CaptainHowdy
12-Dec-2002, 13:08
Semus and Lornie, the 2 xbox whores, bashing Nintendo non "adult" games.....how surprising.......... :roll:
yes you're right, what a bad not to say strange choice..
and i agree w/ your other remark too..
for sure the typical miyamoto stuff doesn't satisfy the tastes of every gamer. (no one could satisfy everyone tastes..)
but why would he have to change ?
i prefer nintendo making deals w/ other companies like capcom and/or using new talents.. and miyamoto continuing to do what he does so well.
there is still a big audience for his stuff, and not only fans and kids..
and about the stereotypes: the stereotype i see the most these days is about violence and immorality. for many people videogames = slaughter, mass-killing, snipping, cars roberry, whores.... i think THIS is the stereotype that do much damage to the videogames and the gamers. and i see miyamoto works doing much good against it. this is true for rare gems like ICO too.
Yup, its a shame people consider Murder/Rape/Stealing to be mature, I always thought it was the most immature and @#$#ed up element in the world that would think such things are cool, its a @#$# up world we live in.
As ERP said, you can't change people's minds over the internet. That said, why are we typing?
Magnum PI
12-Dec-2002, 13:58
As ERP said, you can't change people's minds over the internet. That said, why are we typing?
i'm typing because i have way too much spare time on my hands. :roll:
Colourless
12-Dec-2002, 16:25
Is U8 an orthogonally projected game like Diablo?
Yes it is orthogonally projected. I can't be sure if it's the exact same projection as Diablo, but I strongly suspect it would be.
Zurich
Sony has stated many times that they recognize the fragility in franchises and would like to move to entirely new games/titles this generation, rather than rely on PSX brands
Like GT3? Sony dumped the franchises that sucked, and wisely so. The biggest games on the PS2- MGS2, FFX, GTA3, GT3. I see a pattern emerging, just give me another minute and I'm sure I'll figure it out ;)
Ben, GT3 aside, I think you realize that every game you just listed was third / second party. They play by different rules. SCE's first party efforts are virtually devoid of PSX sequels, save maybe Arc the Lad, Everybody's Golf, and some other obscure japanese games.
Well you have to admit, there aren't too many SCE first party efforts that are worth making a sequel over.
Call it whatever you like, but Sony just doesn't have strong first party games. Never have.
Though I'll tell you this. Their promise to bring out War Hawk 2 close to launch was *the* reason why I got a PS2 in the first place when it came out.
So I was ever so pissed when it didn't come out. Sequels do matter when the games are amazing.
I have more to say, but I'm only on page 2 right now.. So I'll save it for a later post.
Well you have to admit, there aren't too many SCE first party efforts that are worth making a sequel over.
Call it whatever you like, but Sony just doesn't have strong first party games. Never have.
Gt3, Mark of Kri, Wipeout, dropship, primal, Ico, getaway (some like it), parappa, vic ribbon
BoddoZerg
12-Dec-2002, 19:15
Threads like this confirm my suspicion that Miyamoto is suffering from "Tolkien syndrome" : he's become so legendary that everyone becomes either a drooling worshipper or a cynical hater. The worshippers assume that everything in the genre was invented by him, while the haters call him an overhyped sellout.
It's true - nothing is really original. Not Tolkien, not Miyamoto, and definitely not any form of entertainment in this day and age. You can't really make a completely original video game now, because every playable idea has been done. Anything innovative enough to separate itself from the crowd is simply too weird to be viable. The same thing happened to movies long ago... when was the last time you saw a top-notch film that doesn't fall into one cliched genre or another? Sure, you have your occasional low-budget indies, but the really great movies are all formulaic to some extent - your Matrix, your Lord of the Rings, your Crouching Tiger, they all fall nicely into genres that have been defined, treaded and retreaded long ago.
Just as originality of genre can no longer be considered a requisite for movies, it really is no longer a consideration for videogames. The recent innovations in genre-spanning games have been mild at best. Warcraft III may be a "RPG" hybrid, but the actual RPG elements are few - in contrast, Shattered Galaxy has much more RPG/RTS hybrid features, but it is a sucky game. Everything becomes stereotypic after a short while; Thief was extremely innovative when it appeared, but with oodles of sneaky Snakes, Operatives, and Agents, the sneaky game is every bit as much of a cliche as the Quake-style shooter. There's nothing wrong with Miyamoto staying in a genre he feels comfortable with; you might as well criticize Blizzard for making too many RTS's, or id for making too many 3d engines. In fact, I think it's beneficial for a game developer to stick to a genre he knows - just look at the awesome stuff coming out of places like Blizzard, Bungie, and id. (and Nintendo itself)
On the other hand, people who worship Miyamoto for creating everything in every video game today are equally misguided. He had lots of contributions to a few genres, especially platformers, but there are plenty of genres that exist with no help from Miyamoto. As much as he's contributed, that also doesn't mean that he's infallible, or that he can remain relevant forever... George Lucas was a god too, until he made Star Wars Episode 1.
Miyamoto doesn't stay confined in a handful of genres, though.. just as most game designers don't.
He's spread his philosophy on games all over the Nintendo 1st-party library.. covering almost every genre now.
Miyamoto doesn't stay confined in a handful of genres, though.. just as most game designers don't.
He's spread his philosophy on games all over the Nintendo 1st-party library.. covering almost every genre now.
Mushrooms?
:-?
Eh? :-?
His philosophy has spread to all Nintendo titles... philosophy of mushrooms?
Sorry, couldn't resist :)
:wink:
Seriously, though.. the man and his teams have crafted a golden game in a multitude of genres.
Johnny Awesome
12-Dec-2002, 20:43
I stand by what I said: Miyamoto = great, but not god-like or greater than others like Yu Suzuki (Virtua Racing, Virtua Fighter, F355, Shenmue, Daytona, Space Harrier, Hang On, Afterburner - ie. many good games in a variety of genres).
Pikmin is an RTS clone with a fruity (vegetable actually) twist. It's not that innovative really, but it's still a great game.
I respect Miyamoto, but he didn't invent 3D and he has only a touched a limited amount of genres and even less story/character/narrative subject matter.
CaptainHowdy
12-Dec-2002, 21:41
I stand by what I said: Miyamoto = great, but not god-like or greater than others like Yu Suzuki (Virtua Racing, Virtua Fighter, F355, Shenmue, Daytona, Space Harrier, Hang On, Afterburner - ie. many good games in a variety of genres).
Pikmin is an RTS clone with a fruity (vegetable actually) twist. It's not that innovative really, but it's still a great game.
I respect Miyamoto, but he didn't invent 3D and he has only a touched a limited amount of genres and even less story/character/narrative subject matter.
Suzuki's titles are not have the quality of Miyamotos, those are good games, not great, Segas games average around 75-85% average, while Nintendos titles stick to the 90-100% margin.
Well you have to admit, there aren't too many SCE first party efforts that are worth making a sequel over.
Call it whatever you like, but Sony just doesn't have strong first party games. Never have.
Gt3, Mark of Kri, Wipeout, dropship, primal, Ico, getaway (some like it), parappa, vic ribbon
Sony published, or is going to publish, Wipeout, GT3, Dropship, Primal, The Getaway, and Mark of Kri.
I don't know about Vic Ribbon except that it's been compared to Parappa.
So that leaves Parappa and Ico as Sony first party titles. The rest are 2nd or 3rd party.
So as I stated before, Sony just doesn't have a strong lineup of first party titles.. Never have.
Hopefully they will rectify this problem in time for the PS3 (and introduce a goddamned War Hawk sequel).
Magnum PI
12-Dec-2002, 22:06
I stand by what I said: Miyamoto = great, but not god-like or greater than others like Yu Suzuki (Virtua Racing, Virtua Fighter, F355, Shenmue, Daytona, Space Harrier, Hang On, Afterburner - ie. many good games in a variety of genres).
i presented objective elements that show the amount of contribution of miyamoto at least double in quantity than yu suzuki.
and what do i read ?
suzuki worked on shenmue, racing games, shoot'em up, fighting games
you say it's a variety of genre.
miyamoto worked on plateformers, survival horror (eternal darkness), arpg, fps (goldeneye), rts, fighting games (killer instinct, ssb), shoot'em up (starfox), racing (mario kart), and even other genres with pokemon, puzzle games, mario paint, pilotwings, animal forest.. and you say he touched a limited amount of genres..
am i allowed to see bias in your arguing ?
Pikmin is an RTS clone with a fruity (vegetable actually) twist. It's not that innovative really, but it's still a great game.
a clone ?
a clone = an exact copy..
what game pikmin is a clone of ?
maybe it's an RTS but in no way it is a RTS clone..
anyway i think it's more than a RTS. it incorporates elements from other genres, elements of arcade.. it definitely brings something new in the RTS genre.
I respect Miyamoto, but he didn't invent 3D and he has only a touched a limited amount of genres
should he have touched every imaginable genre ?
give me the name of a videogame professionnal that hans't only touched a limited amount of genres...
and even less story/character/narrative subject matter.
are we speaking about a videogame creator or a novel writer ?
maybe your personnal idea of what videogames should be implies lots of scenarizing and writing. it seems not to be myiamoto idea.
it's not a problem w/ miyamoto, it's just a divergence of opinion b/w him and you..
don't you have more solid critics of miyamoto ? it must be possible..
Don't forget to add in platformers and rpgs to suzuki , I'm pretty sure he has some of those on his plate. I will have to check some more but its so hard to find all of what he's done . Have a good weekend guys
Magnum PI
12-Dec-2002, 22:31
Don't forget to add in platformers and rpgs to suzuki , I'm pretty sure he has some of those on his plate
I will have to check some more but its so hard to find all of what he's done
it's not so hard to activate this link:
http://www.sega-rd2.com/prof/work_e.html
if you have a hard time finding plateformers and rpgs suzuki worked it probably is because there isn't any..
I was goung to stay out of this but....
I have a problem with people who idolise Miyamoto/Suzuki, Naka etc.
It is just that it's just about impossible to tell what they've actually contributed over the years. Not one of those people worked alone on their projects and yet no one else on the teams receives any credit.
A case in point is Metroid Prime, had the game been a dog, it would have been Retros fault, because it's a good product people immediately give Miyamoto credit without a thought for how much direct involvement he had, how many of the key decisions he made.
I have a great deal of respect for these people, but I think that you have to keep their contributions in perspective, game development is done by teams, you need talent accross the board to produce a good product.
Sony published, or is going to publish, Wipeout, GT3, Dropship, Primal, The Getaway, and Mark of Kri.
Those games are inhouse 1st party (even if some were published in the Us by BAM). If I was willing to talk about Sony as a publisher, the list would be much higher and incluse some recent good games, like Socom and Sly Racoon.
Don't forget to add in platformers and rpgs to suzuki , I'm pretty sure he has some of those on his plate
I will have to check some more but its so hard to find all of what he's done
it's not so hard to activate this link:
http://www.sega-rd2.com/prof/work_e.html
if you have a hard time finding plateformers and rpgs suzuki worked it probably is because there isn't any..
So according to that link he was on vacation when the genesis and the saturn were out in stores ? I'm pretty sure he made a game or two for those systems. I'm def sure he made games for the saturn
Sony published, or is going to publish, Wipeout, GT3, Dropship, Primal, The Getaway, and Mark of Kri.
Those games are inhouse 1st party (even if some were published in the Us by BAM). If I was willing to talk about Sony as a publisher, the list would be much higher and incluse some recent good games, like Socom and Sly Racoon.
They aren't 1st party inhouse. They're 2nd party. Check who developed those games on IGN. They're not Sony. They were published by Sony.
To my knowledge, the majority of those games are 1st party Sony games. Leaving out Wipeout's team (today: SCE Liverpool, formerly: Psygnosis), SCE Cambridge (Primal, Dropship), Team Soho (Getaway) are 1st party's but with different names. Evolution Studios (WRC) might falls under the same category. Not sure about Polyphony Digital, maybe even they are 1st party Sony devs..
Magnum PI
12-Dec-2002, 23:32
I was goung to stay out of this but....
I have a problem with people who idolise Miyamoto/Suzuki, Naka etc.
It is just that it's just about impossible to tell what they've actually contributed over the years. Not one of those people worked alone on their projects and yet no one else on the teams receives any credit.
i do not entirely agree.
for if you look at the credits of the latest mario:
http://www.mobygames.com/game/credits/gameId,7178/
it's very extensive and detailed.
of course in the media myiamoto name comes first..
A case in point is Metroid Prime, had the game been a dog, it would have been Retros fault, because it's a good product people immediately give Miyamoto credit without a thought for how much direct involvement he had, how many of the key decisions he made.
which peoples ? journalists ?
I have a great deal of respect for these people, but I think that you have to keep their contributions in perspective, game development is done by teams, you need talent accross the board to produce a good product.
i agree with you. it's why i said miyamoto "worked on" concerning the list i gave. i know that it can be a decisive or capital contribution, or a less important one, maybe even negligible.
i never said he created every game he worked on, he's often (co)producer, or executive (co)producer..
Magnum PI
12-Dec-2002, 23:35
So according to that link he was on vacation when the genesis and the saturn were out in stores ? I'm pretty sure he made a game or two for those systems. I'm def sure he made games for the saturn
the page i gave doesn't list conversions of the arcade games.
this page seems more complete in this regard:
http://www.planetxbox.com/shenmuedojo/yu.html
you're right btw some of these games were ported to saturn, genesis, DC..
his work (excepted shenmue) seems targeted to arcades, not to consoles.
It's hard to compare Suzuki to Miyamoto in one way: Miyamoto works on 80-90% of Nintendo games, Suzuki works only on AM2 games.. which make up around 10-15% of Sega's releases. They have different roles within their companies.
Johnny Awesome
13-Dec-2002, 01:05
But that's precisely why I think Suzuki > Miyamoto. He contributed to more genres and in significant ways. Miyamoto probably gets his name on a project for bringing the donuts to the development teams at Nintendo. Hilarious that even Eternal Darkness credits him. It's ridiculous.
Btw, Sega's average at Gamerankings.com is 76.3%, which includes alot of substandard quick stuff on PS2, GCN, Xbox that came out recently due to Sega's financial woes. Nintendo averages 81.8%. That's not a huge difference really. Even less when you take out Rareware.
I think ERP hit the nail on the head - Miyamoto gets way more credit than he deserves compared to other head developers. He refined platform games and action RPGs, and contributed in minor ways to other genres.
He played no part in about 80% of gaming.
He's great, but let's be realistic here...
To my knowledge, the majority of those games are 1st party Sony games. Leaving out Wipeout's team (today: SCE Liverpool, formerly: Psygnosis), SCE Cambridge (Primal, Dropship), Team Soho (Getaway) are 1st party's but with different names. Evolution Studios (WRC) might falls under the same category. Not sure about Polyphony Digital, maybe even they are 1st party Sony devs..
I stand corrected. :)
BenSkywalker
13-Dec-2002, 02:41
Hilarious that even Eternal Darkness credits him.
As a producer, nothing more(most people ignore who the producer is anyway). That said, Denis seemed to think he had a lot of advice that helped the game quite a bit. People mainly credit Miyamoto with the titles he directed, not those he produced. Compare OoT to Majora's Mask. Same team, Miyamoto directed one and not the other. The difference is very clear to me.
But that's precisely why I think Suzuki > Miyamoto.
I heard Suzuki, put his paycheck on the line to create Hang-On. Anyway, when I was a kid Hang-On, was my favourite game. Even though the arcade cabinet was too big for me, at the time, I still like Hang-On. That was the best game, nothing on Atari or Famicom can compare to it.
Miyamoto maybe a god with joypad style game, but Suzuki had created some wanderful gaming experience, that I always appreciated. The latest being F355 cabinet, that was sure joy to play.
With the arcade dying, its really sad, that we will be limited to joypad, keyboard and mouse for the future fun. Nothing mind blowing anymore.
To my knowledge, the majority of those games are 1st party Sony games. Leaving out Wipeout's team (today: SCE Liverpool, formerly: Psygnosis), SCE Cambridge (Primal, Dropship), Team Soho (Getaway) are 1st party's but with different names. Evolution Studios (WRC) might falls under the same category. Not sure about Polyphony Digital, maybe even they are 1st party Sony devs..
I stand corrected. :)
what does it mean ??
Magnum PI
13-Dec-2002, 08:30
But that's precisely why I think Suzuki > Miyamoto. He contributed to more genres and in significant ways.
you keep repeating the same BS, despite you were proven wrong..
do you think repeating lies make them truth ?
Miyamoto probably gets his name on a project for bringing the donuts to the development teams at Nintendo. Hilarious that even Eternal Darkness credits him. It's ridiculous.
now miyamoto the donuts delivrer ?
what's next ? miyamoto the lawnmower man of nintendo ?
what do you know of his contribution to eternal darkness ?
Btw, Sega's average at Gamerankings.com is 76.3%, which includes alot of substandard quick stuff on PS2, GCN, Xbox that came out recently due to Sega's financial woes. Nintendo averages 81.8%. That's not a huge difference really. Even less when you take out Rareware.
what's your point ?
I think ERP hit the nail on the head - Miyamoto gets way more credit than he deserves compared to other head developers. He refined platform games and action RPGs, and contributed in minor ways to other genres.
he only "refined" platform games and action RPGs ?
when will you stop revisionism ?
his contribution to plateformers and arpg are major.. only a fool could deny that.
he created 3D plateformers.. (i guess you'll say that for mario64 he just was the coffee deliverer..)
He played no part in about 80% of gaming.
nobody said that..
he played a major role at nintendo.
He's great, but let's be realistic here...
excluding your posts, what's so unrealistic has been said ?
Magnum PI
13-Dec-2002, 09:35
But that's precisely why I think Suzuki > Miyamoto.
With the arcade dying, its really sad, that we will be limited to joypad, keyboard and mouse for the future fun. Nothing mind blowing anymore.
too bad arcade is dying, apparently consoles have taken market shares of arcade. is it a bad thing ? i don't know.
i agree with the guy who says this makes no sense comparing suzuki (arcade guy) and miyamoto(console guy). comparing miyamoto and yuki naja would make far more sense.
PC-Engine
13-Dec-2002, 09:37
I guess we shouldn't praise Steven Spieberg or George Lucas either, I mean without the special effects teams, they wouldn't be anything right? :roll:
Regarding the arcades, IIRC SEGA is the only one left holding the fort in that field and they've been doing pretty well.
Ozymandis
13-Dec-2002, 10:21
Wow, a long but interesting thread :o
Miyamoto is one of the top game designers. That's inarguable. Personally, I find him to be:
1) Very consistent in terms of quality
2) Extremely limited as far as what genres and themes
3) Overly simplistic in terms of gameplay
That's just my opinion. He's a great developer in some ways, but he's not for me. Yuji Naka is much more impressive to me personally :)
And none of Suzuki's work, as good as it is, is considered genre defining.
Heh.
Virtua Fighter series not the defining 3d fighter?
You've got to be kidding me.
That's just my opinion. He's a great developer in some ways, but he's not for me. Yuji Naka is much more impressive to me personally :)
Sonic is the definition of "over simplistic gameplay"
Ozymandis
13-Dec-2002, 12:16
Sonic is the definition of "over simplistic gameplay"
Compared to what? Mario? :roll:
And I think that Naka has developed more than just Sonic, eh?
too bad arcade is dying, apparently consoles have taken market shares of arcade. is it a bad thing ? i don't know.
Yes, its a bad thing. Console is console, but Arcade is closer to an videogames theme park, than anything.
Johnny Awesome
13-Dec-2002, 13:11
Yuji Naka > Miyamoto as well:
Sonic
Phantasy Star
NiGHTS
Burning Rangers
Sonic Adventure
Phantasy Star Online
Samba de Amigo
Platform, RPG, Music, Adventure, Network RPG. That's a pretty impressive list. He also suffers from Miyamoto's weakness for poor narrative and story though, but his games aren't as simplistic.
Magnum PI
13-Dec-2002, 13:22
Sonic is the definition of "over simplistic gameplay"
Compared to what? Mario? :roll:
not compared to anything.
in an absolute way..
you're the one denouncing over simplistic gameplay. just see it everywhere, not only where it suits you..
And I think that Naka has developed more than just Sonic, eh?
he mainly worked on sonic games..
and on samba del amigo (maracas simulator), chu chu rocket, pso..
do these titles represents the summum in gameplay sophistication ? :roll:
as miyamoto developed more than mario.. a game that i find have more depth than sonic.
anyway what's so bad with a basic but solid gameplay ?
pac man, panzer dragoon, mario, sonic, the house of the dead, tetris...
would complex gameplay be intrinsinquly good ? would a basic gameplay would be intrinsinquly bad ? i don't think so.
i don't see basic gameplay being a problem.
Magnum PI
13-Dec-2002, 14:28
Yuji Naka > Miyamoto as well:
Sonic
Sonic Adventure
NiGHTS
for sure, very complex games...
Phantasy Star
OK..
Samba de Amigo
i guess a maracas simulator must be a very complex game..
Burning Rangers
dunno
Phantasy Star Online
you could hardly make more simplistic in this genre.
Platform, RPG, Music, Adventure, Network RPG. That's a pretty impressive list.
it's a great list. but miyamoto one's don't pale in comparison.
He also suffers from Miyamoto's weakness for poor narrative and story though, but his games aren't as simplistic.
stop your endless nitpicking.
your exercise in tarnishing miyamoto works is pathetic.
Reznor007
13-Dec-2002, 14:42
I guess we shouldn't praise Steven Spieberg or George Lucas either, I mean without the special effects teams, they wouldn't be anything right? :roll:
Regarding the arcades, IIRC SEGA is the only one left holding the fort in that field and they've been doing pretty well.
Don't forget Namco and Konami.
Johnny Awesome
13-Dec-2002, 17:36
I've said my piece. I'll leave you Nintendorks to your mushrooms. 8)
I'm going back to playing a very good game with poor controls called Metroid Prime.
Magnum PI
13-Dec-2002, 19:39
I've said my piece. I'll leave you Nintendorks to your mushrooms. 8)
thus spoke the wise guy...
I'm going back to playing a very good game with poor controls called Metroid Prime.
very good game ?
poor controls ?
in the same phrase ?
wouldn't these things be mutually exclusive ?
but i shouldn't be suprised, as we see the thing very differently. :roll:
StefanS
14-Dec-2002, 00:17
I've said my piece. I'll leave you Nintendorks to your mushrooms. 8)
thus spoke the wise guy...
I'm going back to playing a very good game with poor controls called Metroid Prime.
very good game ?
poor controls ?
in the same phrase ?
wouldn't these things be self-exclusive ?
but i shouldn't be suprised, as we see the thing very differently. :roll:
Well what do you exspect of a person having Blinx and Jet Set Radio Future on his list of the 10 best games 2002 while leaving out SMS.
Ozymandis
14-Dec-2002, 00:23
Well what do you exspect of a person having Blinx and Jet Set Radio Future on his list of the 10 best games 2002 while leaving out SMS.
*shrug*
I didn't care for Super Mario Sunshine either. I agree with him that Jet Set Radio Future was a better game than SMS.
But I dunno about Blinx...
Yea sms was a fun game but it was basicly mario 64 part 2. Its like saying sonic adventure 2 was a master piece. it was a good game but it was just an extension of the first one.
Johnny Awesome
14-Dec-2002, 01:51
I have a soft spot for BLiNX. I really like the time controls and the replayability of the levels. It's very fun and innovative IMO. SMS was good, but it just didn't quite make the list. Probably would have been number 11.
I wasn't aware that Nintendo fans were keeping track of my preferences, but thanks, it's nice to be noticed. :oops:
it was too much like mario64 for me.
BenSkywalker
14-Dec-2002, 15:35
Ozy-
Virtua Fighter series not the defining 3d fighter?
You've got to be kidding me.
Certainly not, but not due to if it is the best of breed or not. SuperMarioBros defined/created the 2D side scrolling genre and all those that followed it strayed very little from its course. Same with Mario64. Before Mario we had a number of '3D' platformers, all of them trying out their own unique spin on it(Crash, Sonic etc). Mario hit and from that point forward, not only were all 3D platformers cut in the same mold, so were pretty much all 3rd person 3D games(including Nintendo's own).
For VirtuaFighter, it plays quite differently from the other offerings in the genre. Tekken, DoA, Toshiden etc all had noticeably distinct play mechanics not only from each other but also from VirtuaFighter. Even looking at StreetFighter II which was the defining fighting game for a while, once MortalKombat, SuperSmashBros and the like hit SF2's defining characteristics were gone. It no longer was the title that others followed.
Johnny-
Platform, RPG, Music, Adventure, Network RPG. That's a pretty impressive list.
With Miyamoto you have platformer, adventure, fighting, racing(F-Zero created an entire sub genre as did MarioKart arguably, although a case can be me made for RC Pro Am), shooter(SF), party games, communication games and strategy games. Who was it that had so much more diverse credits? Just because Miyamoto didn't make a dozen games in a particular genre doesn't mean he didn't make any ;)
For VirtuaFighter, it plays quite differently from the other offerings in the genre. Tekken, DoA, Toshiden etc all had noticeably distinct play mechanics not only from each other but also from VirtuaFighter. Even looking at StreetFighter II which was the defining fighting game for a while, once MortalKombat, SuperSmashBros and the like hit SF2's defining characteristics were gone. It no longer was the title that others followed.
Rockman play quite differently to Mario as well. If Mario is the defining of 2D scroller, VF is surely the defining of 3D fighter.
Mario hit and from that point forward, not only were all 3D platformers cut in the same mold, so were pretty much all 3rd person 3D games(including Nintendo's own).
??? You mean Rare's ? or do you mean how alike is Mario64 to Mario Sunshine ?
I like Mario, and I played most of the games alot. I must have went through the original SMB more than 10,000 times. As far as I am concern there is no game that play like it, except its sequel.
Other 2D scroller games were quite different from Mario, like other 3D fighting games are different from VF.
I am really curious, is there other Famicom games that play like Mario ? I must have missed it, please tell me what it is cause I want to play it.
archie4oz
16-Dec-2002, 06:30
I am really curious, is there other Famicom games that play like Mario ? I must have missed it, please tell me what it is cause I want to play it.
Well Megaman is about as close as I think you can get...
Ozymandis
16-Dec-2002, 07:36
Certainly not, but not due to if it is the best of breed or not. SuperMarioBros defined/created the 2D side scrolling genre and all those that followed it strayed very little from its course. Same with Mario64. Before Mario we had a number of '3D' platformers, all of them trying out their own unique spin on it(Crash, Sonic etc). Mario hit and from that point forward, not only were all 3D platformers cut in the same mold, so were pretty much all 3rd person 3D games(including Nintendo's own).
For VirtuaFighter, it plays quite differently from the other offerings in the genre. Tekken, DoA, Toshiden etc all had noticeably distinct play mechanics not only from each other but also from VirtuaFighter. Even looking at StreetFighter II which was the defining fighting game for a while, once MortalKombat, SuperSmashBros and the like hit SF2's defining characteristics were gone. It no longer was the title that others followed.
Many of the modern 3d platformers don't play like Mario64 either. Especially two of the biggest ones (Sonic Adventure and Crash Bandicoot), which play more similiarly to each other than to Mario.
I guess it depends on how you define "defining". But I bet if you ask fighting fans, probably 90% of them would name VF as the "defining 3d fighting game" :)
And I totally disagree about SSB and MK stealing Street Fighter's genre-defining position. Neither of those games has spawned many imitators, from what I've seen.
Reznor007
16-Dec-2002, 08:54
And I totally disagree about SSB and MK stealing Street Fighter's genre-defining position. Neither of those games has spawned many imitators, from what I've seen.
Well, MK spawned Time Killers, Blood Storm, War Gods, and probably a good share of others.
BenSkywalker
16-Dec-2002, 13:17
V3-
Rockman play quite differently to Mario as well. If Mario is the defining of 2D scroller
Megaman is a side scroller(SMB rip), has items you can acquire that aren't 'visible' in the typical sense(SMB rip), is uses platforms w/life or death elements involved(SMB rip). SMB created almost all of the mechanics of side scrolling games, I can't think of any side scrollers that don't utilize most of SMB's mechanics(control basis, challenge factor etc).
??? You mean Rare's ? or do you mean how alike is Mario64 to Mario Sunshine ?
Free roaming is what I mean. Prior to Mario all 3rd person '3D' games were built in a corridor style in terms of gameplay mechanics. Mario allowed people to run off in any direction they wanted to. Mario was the first 3rd person game to do this(and it is the reason why it blew people away).
Ozy-
Many of the modern 3d platformers don't play like Mario64 either. Especially two of the biggest ones (Sonic Adventure and Crash Bandicoot), which play more similiarly to each other than to Mario.
Compare Sonic Adventure to the Saturn Sonic title(can never remember the name of that one) or the current Crash game to the original. Ratchet&Clank, SlyCooper, Jak&Daxter, anything Rare and Blinx certainly follow in SM64's gameplay formula. They changed it up quite a bit, but they are very far removed from everything that came prior to SM64.
I guess it depends on how you define "defining". But I bet if you ask fighting fans, probably 90% of them would name VF as the "defining 3d fighting game"
90%? I think that Soul Calibur may be able to pull more then 10% of the vote.
And I totally disagree about SSB and MK stealing Street Fighter's genre-defining position. Neither of those games has spawned many imitators, from what I've seen.
Besides those Reznor listed for MK, I'd toss on KillerInstinct for Midway's offering. SmashBros pulled away genre defining status from SFII for a different reason- its ability to sell games. We are still seeing 'new' Capcom 2D fighters and based on the numbers I have seen, it appears that SmashBros outsells the last four or five Capcom 2D brawlers by a two to one margin at least(that's comparing to the last four or five combined). It's hard to retain genre defining when only ~20% of all the sales for your genre come from games that play like what you offer. ;)
Magnum PI
16-Dec-2002, 22:28
there is a slashdot post
http://slashdot.org/articles/02/12/16/1735210.shtml?tid=127
CaptainHowdy
17-Dec-2002, 00:20
if you ask me what defined the 3d fighting game, I would have said One Must Fall.
Megaman is a side scroller(SMB rip), has items you can acquire that aren't 'visible' in the typical sense(SMB rip), is uses platforms w/life or death elements involved(SMB rip). SMB created almost all of the mechanics of side scrolling games, I can't think of any side scrollers that don't utilize most of SMB's mechanics(control basis, challenge factor etc).
:lol: You've got to be kidding. Rockman has level segment that goes up and down as well as to the side. Items that aren't visible ? Rockman 1 up, is a Rockman head, place in some level, that you can see upon entering some segment of the level. It is certainly isn't hidden in SMB style 1 up mushroom. Rockman has healthbar as well as powerbar for different weapons, Enemies drop items to increase these as well. It has different bosses at the end to boot.
SMB control basis ? I hope you are not talking press left, to move your avatar left, press right move your avatar right. SMB has a run button, Rockman doesn't. Mario jump is different to Rockman jump. Rockman gain new powerups after defeating the bosses, Mario gain powerups, by finding hidden things in boxes.
Free roaming is what I mean. Prior to Mario all 3rd person '3D' games were built in a corridor style in terms of gameplay mechanics. Mario allowed people to run off in any direction they wanted to. Mario was the first 3rd person game to do this(and it is the reason why it blew people away).
Free roaming Vs Corridor ?, that's it ?
Mario responses with different terrain(type, angle, velocity) that his is on added with quirky Mario control is what seperate typical Mario from other games. And to exaggerate all these and make things easier for you, is super deformed Mario.
Like Miyamoto said before in an interview, Mario is a game for people who like to play around with joypad. All typical Mario games is about mastering joypad through hand to eye co-ordination.
Other platformer or other games, try to remove alot of these things in order to make games easier to play.
Mario elements aren't that great, if you do not have that underlying mechanics. And Rockman has different underlying mechanics to SMB. These underlying mechanics is what many games today lacked.
Maybe people don't appreciate them anymore :(
BenSkywalker
17-Dec-2002, 03:48
V3-
You were playing games prior to SMB weren't you? Side scrolling with platform elements tied in with the ability to shoot was not done prior to SMB. Sidecrolling may seem obvious now for 2D games, it wasn't back then.
SMB control basis ? I hope you are not talking press left, to move your avatar left, press right move your avatar right. SMB has a run button, Rockman doesn't. Mario jump is different to Rockman jump. Rockman gain new powerups after defeating the bosses, Mario gain powerups, by finding hidden things in boxes.
You are talking about altering things, not radical departure. I'd say the biggest difference between Mario and MegaMan is MM's reliance on shooting. Both games are sidescrollers where power ups are essential and platforming is essential.
Free roaming Vs Corridor ?, that's it ?
That's it.....? :o That shift was considered one of the most revolutionary leaps in gaming history. If you had print publications from the time, read back through them. The move from corridor(limited ability to move) versus free roaming was huge. Prior to SM64 '3D' games had 3D graphics, not real gameplay(utilizing physics to enhance gameplay).
Mario elements aren't that great, if you do not have that underlying mechanics. And Rockman has different underlying mechanics to SMB. These underlying mechanics is what many games today lacked.
I'd say you are looking at much higher level mechanics then I am. It is the core level mechanics that so many games borrow from Miyamoto's titles.
You were playing games prior to SMB weren't you? Side scrolling with platform elements tied in with the ability to shoot was not done prior to SMB. Sidecrolling may seem obvious now for 2D games, it wasn't back then.
I remember something like Pitfall, being a side level things, that was on Atari. The other one was my fav for Atari, I think the title was Hero. It involved some shooting and blowing up wall. Then there is the Arcade, I remember playing quite abit of side scrolling game, like Kung-Fu.
You are talking about altering things, not radical departure. I'd say the biggest difference between Mario and MegaMan is MM's reliance on shooting. Both games are sidescrollers where power ups are essential and platforming is essential.
What radical departure did Tekken made from VF ?
That's it.....? That shift was considered one of the most revolutionary leaps in gaming history. If you had print publications from the time, read back through them. The move from corridor(limited ability to move) versus free roaming was huge. Prior to SM64 '3D' games had 3D graphics, not real gameplay(utilizing physics to enhance gameplay).
"not real gameplay(utilizing physics to enhance gameplay)" ?
We had free roaming in many 3D flight sim games for PC. Those games certainly aren't corridor type. Beside corridor games were spawned from those Wolfenstain and Doom. As far I as I know, Corridor style was more to do with hardware limitation at the time. They didn't have N64 before than you know.
I'd say you are looking at much higher level mechanics then I am. It is the core level mechanics that so many games borrow from Miyamoto's titles.
Like Miyamoto said, he didn't start with a core level mechanics. He created the underlying mechanic first, than create core level around that. Its too bad many games doesn't have the underlying mechanics to start with and just copy what they can see at the core level design.
What many people failed to copy is what seperates Miyamoto and his team from the rest.
BenSkywalker
17-Dec-2002, 07:22
I remember something like Pitfall, being a side level things, that was on Atari. The other one was my fav for Atari, I think the title was Hero. It involved some shooting and blowing up wall. Then there is the Arcade, I remember playing quite abit of side scrolling game, like Kung-Fu.
Pitfall moved you from 'level' to 'level', it didn't really have scrolling involved. IIRC, didn't Kung-Fu Master hit the arcades after SMB was launched?
What radical departure did Tekken made from VF ?
3D had already been done, the difference for VF was making a fighting game out of it. The biggest difference to me between the originals in both series was speed. VF felt way too sluggish IMO(not that Tekken was great in that aspect, but much better then VF IMO).
We had free roaming in many 3D flight sim games for PC.
We did? IIRC it wasn't until 1999 that the first fully 3D flight sim hit. I know they had psuedo 3D prior to that(dating back ages actually) but the terrain was just a hack and didn't calculate properly.
Beside corridor games were spawned from those Wolfenstain and Doom. As far I as I know, Corridor style was more to do with hardware limitation at the time. They didn't have N64 before than you know.
I didn't mean corridor in the strictest sense of the word. The original Crash was in 3D, a very limited and confining 3D that was akin to being stuck in a corridor. You could move up or down as much as you wanted, or left or right as much as you wanted in a particular area but not in any direction at one point.
Like Miyamoto said, he didn't start with a core level mechanics. He created the underlying mechanic first, than create core level around that. Its too bad many games doesn't have the underlying mechanics to start with and just copy what they can see at the core level design.
The underlying mechanics frequently require entirely new core mechanics to work however. SM64 couldn't have worked under any other engine that was around at the time as a singular example.
Magnum PI
17-Dec-2002, 09:34
Pitfall moved you from 'level' to 'level', it didn't really have scrolling involved. IIRC, didn't Kung-Fu Master hit the arcades after SMB was launched?
kung fu master was released in 1984.
Super Mario Bros. was released in Japan on 9/13/85
We did? IIRC it wasn't until 1999 that the first fully 3D flight sim hit. I know they had psuedo 3D prior to that(dating back ages actually) but the terrain was just a hack and didn't calculate properly.
who cares if terrain was a hack and didn't calculate properly.
it doesn't prevent the fact that free roaming in 3D was existing long before..
anyway what's does it have to do with mario64 ? this is not a flight sim. this was the first real 3D plateformer. some others were perhaps using 3d graphics but their gameplay were definitively not 3D.
mario64 was very new, fresh and innovative at its time.
mario 64 is milestone in videogame history, like super mario bros,virtua fighter...
Pitfall moved you from 'level' to 'level', it didn't really have scrolling involved. IIRC, didn't Kung-Fu Master hit the arcades after SMB was launched?
Level by level is still side way. It didn't scroll was more to do with hardware. I am pretty sure I played and completed Kung-Fu in Arcade long before SMB.
3D had already been done, the difference for VF was making a fighting game out of it. The biggest difference to me between the originals in both series was speed. VF felt way too sluggish IMO(not that Tekken was great in that aspect, but much better then VF IMO).
2D had already been done as well, even scrolling 2D. Speed ? Is that even radical ? At best the speed differential is minor. But VF is and always been faster than Tekken. Tekken is just more lenient in its button input. VF speed reflect the dexterity of your hands. Tekken had more buffer. But it was minor difference. But by the time Tekken came out, there was VF2, which is faster than Tekken.
We did? IIRC it wasn't until 1999 that the first fully 3D flight sim hit. I know they had psuedo 3D prior to that(dating back ages actually) but the terrain was just a hack and didn't calculate properly.
1999 ? Don't think so. Flight sim and racing sim was one of the earliest to adopt 3D polygon.
I didn't mean corridor in the strictest sense of the word. The original Crash was in 3D, a very limited and confining 3D that was akin to being stuck in a corridor. You could move up or down as much as you wanted, or left or right as much as you wanted in a particular area but not in any direction at one point.
Mr Jason Rubbin said Crash being corridor was limited by 3D hardware (PSX) ? He always wanted free roaming, that's why with PS2 they made Jax and Daxter.
The underlying mechanics frequently require entirely new core mechanics to work however. SM64 couldn't have worked under any other engine that was around at the time as a singular example
Yes, that's true, but the underlying mechanics comes first for Miyamoto.
Peppermonkey
18-Dec-2002, 08:45
Here's a better question. Why won't people in general grow up? In the eyes of the non-gamer, video games are an immature thing. People laugh when I say that I play a lot of video games. I do not consider very many games to be too "kiddy" to play (Barney, Teletubbies, Rugrats, the GC Mickey Mouse game).
I refuse to adhere to the non-gamer's code and "grow-up", because that would mean I would stop playing video games. The only way to get me to stop playing video games is if they pry them out of my cold dead hands!
Nintendo's games do not focus primarily on kids, they are trying to make games that all ages would like. You know, the type of games that parents wouldn't have a hissy fit about, and the type of games that give enough depth for a 20+ year old to enjoy immensely.
Eternal Darkness, Resident Evil, Metroid Prime, Mortal Kombat, Timesplitters 2... these are obviously not "kiddy" games and they show that Nintendo is willing to cater for these age groups. Obviously, not everybody is seeing this change and the damage Sony did to Nintendo has not yet been fixed.
Magnum PI
18-Dec-2002, 10:32
before asking why ppl don't grow up i would first ask why gamers don't grow up..
because the ppl i see mocking "kiddy" games and "kiddy" consoles.. are gamers..
http://www.adr.com/adr?page=adrnews&formtype=3&compid=SNYCRP001&prod= BT&mdate=20021216&mseq=8309&acc=BT20021216008309
quote:WSJ(12/17) Violent Videogames Are Mainly Bought For Kids (Dow Jones News Service)
Updated: Monday, December 16, 2002 11:02PM ET
By Joseph Pereira
Tagrineth
18-Dec-2002, 15:10
Mr Jason Rubbin said Crash being corridor was limited by 3D hardware (PSX) ? He always wanted free roaming, that's why with PS2 they made Jax and Daxter.
PSX limiting? Hardly. Play Metal Gear Solid and you'll see some very good 3D roaming-style gameplay. Not really corridors. Granted it isn't a platformer, but you get the idea.
Oh, and then there's Tony Hawk, which is very free-roaming and fully 3D. :roll:
Tag: And then again, Crash is like a second-generation PSX game while MGS/THPS came out 2+ years later.
The hardware's abilities became more apparent over time, I assume. :)
Mr Jason Rubbin said Crash being corridor was limited by 3D hardware (PSX) ? He always wanted free roaming, that's why with PS2 they made Jax and Daxter.
PSX limiting? Hardly. Play Metal Gear Solid and you'll see some very good 3D roaming-style gameplay. Not really corridors. Granted it isn't a platformer, but you get the idea.
Oh, and then there's Tony Hawk, which is very free-roaming and fully 3D. :roll:
I assume PSX couldn't handle what Naughty Dog wanted to create. I think Spyro the Dragon was full roaming 3d too, but had it's fair limitations. Even MGS, with quite frequant loading times as I remember. I trust that J. Rubin had good reasons for making Crash they way it turned out.
PSX limiting? Hardly. Play Metal Gear Solid and you'll see some very good 3D roaming-style gameplay. Not really corridors. Granted it isn't a platformer, but you get the idea.
Oh, and then there's Tony Hawk, which is very free-roaming and fully 3D
:) Go ask Rubin. He said it.
Anyway MGS would be classified as corridor by Ben. Tony Hawk you are confined in Skate Park, which would be a corridor as well I assume. And Mario 64 you are confined in a room, and it wasn't big either.
Magnum PI
21-Dec-2002, 14:42
this article inspired an editorial to tokyopia:
http://www.tokyopia.com/articles.asp?articlesid=36
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