Nvidia "Community Outreach" [Archive]

Geo

01-Dec-2005, 14:02

Anybody heard of a company called Arbuthnot Entertainment Group (AEG), and their relationship with Nvidia?

Their webpage is here: http://www.aeginfo.com/ Their claimed areas of expertize include community development, crisis management (!), and Buzz & Coverage reporting.

Apparently NV is one of their clients. Of that relationship, they say:

AEG has developed a unique campaign of community outreach and involvement to build strong enthusiast support for NVIDIA products and software.

Derek Perez of NV, says of them in turn:

AEG serves a pivotal role in helping us to build and manage online buzz for NVIDIA products. AEG’s online community outreach programs have been extraordinarily successful in improving public perception of our company and its products. So much so that we've recently expanded AEG's role into some of our other product lines. AEG plays an essential role in our marketing and public relations programs. In our opinion, they’re the best-of-breed experts in the field of online PR and community management.

Anyone here have any personal knowledge of what exactly this adds up to? Are any of our B3Ders in contact with AEG and part of whatever programs they are running for NV? What exactly is "community outreach" aimed at "build strong enthusiast support" by using "community management"?

Another client, Microsoft Games Studios, has this to say about their techniques:

From my perspective, the most powerful form of marketing for any entertainment property is 'positive word of mouth,' and the Internet is the ideal communication vehicle to help spread that buzz. Arbuthnot recognizes this like no other agency I've worked with, and knows what it takes to build this 'must-have' buzz. While most PR agencies find it beneath them or a waste of their time to interact with the smallest fan site or the most remote online forum, Arbuthnot understands that these passionate fans are the ones that turn so-so titles into blockbusters. The slow and steady process of 'magnifying the mania' with these loyal fans is what Arbuthnot is all about, and they execute better than anyone in the business

Now, I'm all for "community outreach", and have certainly been needling NV on these boards about it off and on over the years. But googling AEG and NV has not produced any particular evidence of just what these folks are up to or how they produce all this "positive buzz" at online communities with the cooperation of "passionate fans".

I'm left to tentatively conclude that is not by accident --when a company that gets the kind of praise these guys are getting from their client is more-or-less invisible to the larger general community, then I have to think that is not by accident but by design.

So, how do they accomplish their goals? Sharing of insider information with selected influential webbies at various online communities? Maybe even providing the newest NV boards for these "passionate fans" to enjoy and tell their online communities about? If so, why aren't we hearing about this from the online community folks who are involved? Are they foreclosed by the terms of their agreement from talking about AEG and its programs in public?

Again, I'm all for community outreach. I'm a community guy. But I'd certainly like to hear more about whatever is going on here and why it seems to require that it be hidden from public view.

Also, has anyone heard of ATI doing anything similar?

Hanners

01-Dec-2005, 14:13

So, how do they accomplish their goals? Sharing of insider information with selected influential webbies at various online communities? Maybe even providing the newest NV boards for these "passionate fans" to enjoy and tell their online communities about? If so, why aren't we hearing about this from the online community folks who are involved? Are they foreclosed by the terms of their agreement from talking about AEG and its programs in public?

Without saying too much, very good points you have there.

Sxotty

01-Dec-2005, 14:23

How abou having random people diseminate information across message boards, while that information may or may not be true. I dislike viral marketing btw it is intellectually dishonest. Next time you tell me you like your card I have to worry whether you were paid to say it ;)

digitalwanderer

01-Dec-2005, 14:26

has anyone heard of ATI doing anything similar?
Yes, they call it "digitalwanderer" though and it's shrouded in secrecy....

EDITED BITS: My apologies, I shouldn't be joking with this topic...it's too serious to be goofing with.

Although if it's true I might finally have found a job just for me, think that company would pay a premium for people with reps who endorsed their shite? If nothing else think me trying to get a job with them might reveal some interesting info? (That last bit I'm actually a tad serious about.)

Geo

01-Dec-2005, 14:46

Without saying too much, very good points you have there.

Heh, Hanners you intrigue me! :lol: That degree of caution says quite abit on its face. Why is anyone afraid to talk about this? What kind of "community outreach" requires secrecy, for gossakes?

Community outreach is a beautiful thing. Or at least it should be. "Passionate fans" are a beautiful thing too (you don't, for instance, see me ever use "fanboi" except in jest), so long as they keep it to being positive about what they love rather than degenerate into hit-squads on the other folks.

I don't know exactly what this program is, and certainly no one has told me they are a part of it. But I'd like to know more, and I think it would be much more healthy if whatever it is is in the open.

Hanners

01-Dec-2005, 15:03

Heh, Hanners you intrigue me! :lol: That degree of caution says quite abit on its face. Why is anyone afraid to talk about this? What kind of "community outreach" requires secrecy, for gossakes?

In my case, I just don't want to get any of the sources of the information I've seen into trouble. I would hope it's obvious why I picked out the statement I did though, because you pretty much hit the nail on the head from what I've heard.

I agree that such a programme should be more open in its disclosure though, that's for sure.

dizietsma

01-Dec-2005, 15:09

Sorry for the late reply to this topic, I was using an Ati X1800 but the 2d image was so bad that I could not read the text on the replies and I had to swap it out for my new, and rather fabulous, Nvidia 7800 GTX THE POWER OF THREE card.

Getting back on topic, yes it's terrible that people are paid to do that sort of thing, you can't trust anybody nowadays.

Geo

01-Dec-2005, 15:30

In my case, I just don't want to get any of the sources of the information I've seen into trouble.

My point exactly. A community outreach program that has the potential to get folks in trouble for talking about it is a very curious thing. It shouldn't be that way.

I would hope it's obvious why I picked out the statement I did though, because you pretty much hit the nail on the head from what I've heard.

Figured. Nice to hear, actually, even that small amount of independant confirmation. Tho obviously some official info and explanation (y'know, "community outreach" :lol: ) from AEG, NV, or actual participants would be so much nicer. . .

_xxx_

01-Dec-2005, 15:32

My point exactly. A community outreach program that has the potential to get folks in trouble for talking about it is a very curious thing. It shouldn't be that way.

Who knows, maybe the trouble is "just" that they don't get payed, that would already suffice...

digitalwanderer

01-Dec-2005, 15:32

Wow, just wow. I've been doing a bit of digging/getting an edumacation by some friendlies via PM & e-mail and this is just looking worser and worser like a video card fanatics tinfoil hat wearing wetdream.

I think there are people here on B3D who have been used by/are working with AEG. :shock:

kyleb

01-Dec-2005, 15:36

Are any of our B3Ders in contact with AEG and part of whatever programs they are running for NV?
It wounldn't shock me one but if this guy (http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/member.php?u=1662) is on board with them. Not that he has many posts here, but with the same username over at Anandtech forums you can find him running all sorts of pro-Nvidia/anti-ATI PR. Granted I have seen plenty of ravid fans that do much of that on there own, but that guy really goes out of his way so It sure would make sense to find out he is getting paid for his efforts.

CMAN

01-Dec-2005, 15:45

Who's going to step up and McCarthy the Beyond3D forum?

digitalwanderer

01-Dec-2005, 15:49

Who's going to step up and McCarthy the Beyond3D forum?
I don't want that!

How's about we just ask everyone who reads this who ever got any money/free stuff from AEG to post up about it and their experiences? That seems a whole lot easier/better to me. :)

If there is nothing wrong with what they did they should have no problems posting up about it, right?

Hanners

01-Dec-2005, 15:53

Who knows, maybe the trouble is "just" that they don't get payed, that would already suffice...

I guess it all depends on whether you consider getting free boards as 'payment'.

digitalwanderer

01-Dec-2005, 16:02

I guess it all depends on whether you consider getting free boards as 'payment'.
Actually, that does depend on some things.

Do they give you the board with no strings and just hope you like it and write nice things about it? That wouldn't actually be so bad, it is just putting your product into the hands of some people you hope will be vocal about it and doesn't seem like a bad move.

Or do they give you the board with conditions and strings, that you have to go post up nice things about it and you can't reveal that you're doing so for a free board.

I figure it will come down to if those people who got the goods are allowed to talk about it or not. I figure a "don't talk about it unless someone asks, but don't lie if asked" attitude woudl be about right for something like this to be legit....anything more draconic than that and I got some serious reservations with it.

Hanners

01-Dec-2005, 16:06

Actually, that does depend on some things.

Do they give you the board with no strings and just hope you like it and write nice things about it? That wouldn't actually be so bad, it is just putting your product into the hands of some people you hope will be vocal about it and doesn't seem like a bad move.

Or do they give you the board with conditions and strings, that you have to go post up nice things about it and you can't reveal that you're doing so for a free board.

Exactly - And that's why some more disclosure on the issue would be welcome.

digitalwanderer

01-Dec-2005, 16:07

Exactly - And that's why some more disclosure on the issue would be welcome.
What? You and me agree on something?!?!? :shock:

;) :lol:

Geo

01-Dec-2005, 16:13

I don't want that!

How's about we just ask everyone who reads this who ever got any money/free stuff from AEG to post up about it and their experiences? That seems a whole lot easier/better to me. :)

If there is nothing wrong with what they did they should have no problems posting up about it, right?

QFT. No witch-hunts, please, on our own folks. I'd much rather see them (if there are any, here or other forums) get out in front and explain what this thing is than anything like that. That's the problem with "secret" tho, it creates that suspicion about what is really going on.

digitalwanderer

01-Dec-2005, 16:15

That's the problem with "secret" tho, it creates that suspicion about what is really going on.
Yeah I know, and I'm sorry for that....but my info is straight up and I had to post it. :(

Mariner

01-Dec-2005, 16:17

Can we get Mulder and Scully to look into this for us? :smile:

Geo

01-Dec-2005, 17:12

I've sent AEG an email at their publicly available email addy on their website, pointing at this thread and inviting them to participate in the discussion directly as to what their programs for NV consist of.

andypski

01-Dec-2005, 17:14

To put everyone's minds at rest I would just like to state for the record that I am not part of any nVidia or AEG community outreach program.

;)

MuFu

01-Dec-2005, 17:16

ROFLMILKFLOAT. :lol:

tEd

01-Dec-2005, 17:17

To put everyone's minds at rest I would just like to state for the record that I am not part of any nVidia or AEG community outreach program.

;)

I'm not sure if i can believe that. You seemed very suspicious.

martrox

01-Dec-2005, 17:19

To put everyone's minds at rest I would just like to state for the record that I am not part of any nVidia or AEG community outreach program.

;)

Now....THAT's comedy.......

IbaneZ

01-Dec-2005, 17:21

Bah, lazy NV. The competition knows better. Join all the forums and try to be one of the guys and kiss ass all day long. That works. Or worked anyway.

Arun

01-Dec-2005, 17:24

To put everyone's minds at rest I would just like to state for the record that I am not part of any nVidia or AEG community outreach program.

;)ROFL! :) That merited a reputation point. Heck, it'd merit a month long reputation frenzy, but I'm too lazy for that, sorry ;)
Best comment I heard in a while, anyway.

Uttar

CMAN

01-Dec-2005, 17:34

QFT. No witch-hunts, please, on our own folks. I'd much rather see them (if there are any, here or other forums) get out in front and explain what this thing is than anything like that. That's the problem with "secret" tho, it creates that suspicion about what is really going on.

Just for clarification, my statement was tongue-in-cheek, hence the use of "McCarty". Just making sure no one took me literally.

And AEG needs to contact me so I can get new computer. :twisted:

kyleb

01-Dec-2005, 17:40

Bah, lazy NV. The competition knows better. Join all the forums and try to be one of the guys and kiss ass all day long. That works. Or worked anyway.
Lazy? I think we should give NV more credit than that, I'm sure it takes quite a bit of time and money to organize and execute such chicanery. ;)

Geo

01-Dec-2005, 17:46

I'm willing to give them credit for trying to do community outreach. Maybe like MS, they'll get it right after a few tries. :lol:

Tim Murray

01-Dec-2005, 17:47

I don't know exactly what this program is, and certainly no one has told me they are a part of it. But I'd like to know more, and I think it would be much more healthy if whatever it is is in the open. How could it be out in the open? Companies have finally realized that your average forum posters are ridiculously influential. They're the people recommending software and hardware to and building computers for everyone they know. They don't listen to mainstream advertising, they can identify PR spin when we see it, and they alter the things we buy to get more performance out of it (X800 Pro->X800 XT, for example). So now, they have figured out, "Hey, we can actually do some marketing by affecting the views of the individual posters!" So they can send a free card, leak some information, etc. But, if the community as a whole knew about it, that person or site would just be another paid marketing shrew. The marketing effect is gone, the person is ostracized, and it fails.

Hell, even if they admit that's what they're doing, everyone will accuse everyone else of being paid off whenever someone admits to liking a particular product. Judging from the fact that we haven't heard about this before, I have to assume it involves an NDA at least and possibly other limitations on what a person can say about it. Maybe I'm just bitter and cynical, but I can't really think of a way that this could be good, short of doing some really crazy things (take some large forums, send your new cards to randomly selected regular and well-respected posters (oh man, the reputation system is a giant conspiracy) when you send out review samples as well, and don't have an NDA for the posters. hello buzz).

Then again, maybe they're just disseminating information through these people ("Organize it like this!"). Or maybe they actually have people whose job it is to post favorably about a topic.

CMAN

01-Dec-2005, 17:53

This sounds a lot like what they are doing with music artists now. Trying to make the "underground" hit artist that everyone buys.

ERK

01-Dec-2005, 18:27

Geo

01-Dec-2005, 18:30

Baron--

I'm hampered by not being able to use names in my hypotheticals (and that's what they are), but I'm not going to do that because it would be unfair.

But don't you think it would matter who exactly is doing this? Joe Schmo with 20 posts on 50 forums, or Joe Known with 4000 posts? If someone you've read a pretty significant sample of those 4000 posts has "Green/Red Feedback Team" in their sig (or you just know they are participants because they've said so), just how much impact is that going to have on you? Won't you have already come to a conclusion on just how much stock you put in that person's opinion? Yeah, they might get it thrown in their face at times, but if they have indpependant reputation based on long presence, isn't that going to be more credible in forming your opinion of what they are saying than anything? Good or bad? As opposed to you finding out somewhere down the road that they've been secretly part of this thing for a long time? Which is healthier for all involved?

Aren't there reviewers you like and some you dislike, some you trust and some you distrust? Yet almost all of them get free kit, so why do you trust some of them? And if you read a sh*t review, would you ever say "wow, that review would be just fine as is if that fellow had paid for the board."

But then, as of yet, we don't have any public indication of what kind of folks are participating in this thing, or exactly what it entails.

It'd also be nice to think there might be a two-way street here with credible community people providing feedback in the other direction. Y'know, like "you guys are getting the snot hammered out of you on filtering quality --do something about it already!"

Sxotty

01-Dec-2005, 18:32

*sigh*

nVidia was making such good progress with me since the intro of the GF6800 series. I kept/keep hoping they have sincerely turned over a new leaf from the FX era. They have definitely been much better, but still every now and then some little thing like this comes up that starts to sour my perception of them again.

Sheesh.
So you work for ATI's community outreach progrem? Thanks for telling us :razz:

Yeah geo, why didn't you just come out and say it like I did at first? I am curious why the subtle inuendos and crap you think the thought police will get ya?

ERK

01-Dec-2005, 18:38

So you work for ATI's community outreach progrem? Thanks for telling us :razz:

I do? :shock: Then I'd like an X1800XT, please. :lol:

JoshMST

01-Dec-2005, 18:46

I knew the movie industry did this quite a bit (I remember seeing a news segment on this kid that ran around on boards saying, "Cowboy Bebop is the greatest anime ever made!" and in return he got things like hats, backpacks, software, and whatever that was Bebop branded. The one thing that struck me was that the kid did in fact like the movie, and the free stuff basically just motivated him to talk more about it.

As a marketing tool, it can be effective, but it also brings ill repute upon itself because it is a connection between the company and the poster that is not readily apparent (and in fact hidden). So, even if the connection was not there and the poster was not part of the program, wouldn't the poster who was sought out because he was a NVIDIA advocate and was somewhat knowledgable still be singing the same tune, even without the swag? It would be interesting to find out the answer.

In all honesty, I wish NV would do as ATI does and let their employees get on message boards and be advocates for the company, and have that relationship very clear. Guys like Dio, OpenGLGuy, CatalystMaker, SirEric, and others are all well respected, and what they say has weight and merit. They have also established themselves on these boards through their honesty and integrity, all the while being a positive example of an ATI employee. They also have their own opinions and sometimes these do not match what ATI PR has to say. It would be great to see NVIDIA follow such an example, as I would love to hear what some of these NV guys would have to say in an open setting such as a messageboard.

Geo

01-Dec-2005, 18:51

Yeah geo, why didn't you just come out and say it like I did at first? I am curious why the subtle inuendos and crap you think the thought police will get ya?

Say what? The viral marketing thing in your first post? It didn't resonate with me, frankly. I rather think that is not the model being followed here, but I'm certainly not sure of it.

I'm not afraid of the "thought police". I'm trying to have a responsible conversation about what I think is an important subject without pushing such scanty public facts as we have available to us farther than seems reasonable to me. Not an easy thing to do about a potentially emotional subject.

Bring some new facts and we can see where we end up from there.

Geo

01-Dec-2005, 19:14

So, even if the connection was not there and the poster was not part of the program, wouldn't the poster who was sought out because he was a NVIDIA advocate and was somewhat knowledgable still be singing the same tune, even without the swag? It would be interesting to find out the answer.

Exactly. We can all think of names on either side that we'd say "well, gee, [insert IHV here] certainly don't have to waste payoff getting him to say that!" :smile: Therefore it must be for something else --like say so s/he can talk about a given product knowledgeably in public from personal experience, for instance. Others, I can think of --certainly from my own experience-- I would respect just as much if I knew they were part of such a program, because they earned that respect with their posts that I read and impressed me over a long period of time. It's the secrecy aspect that raises unsavory suspicions.

We're all computer geeks, we've all got something riding in that slot pushing pixels for us (mine's a 6800GT, for the record --and I paid for it. :razz: )

So, Josh, you're tight with NV --asked your friends for a comment? :wink:

Tim Murray

01-Dec-2005, 19:15

nVidia was making such good progress with me since the intro of the GF6800 series. I kept/keep hoping they have sincerely turned over a new leaf from the FX era. They have definitely been much better, but still every now and then some little thing like this comes up that starts to sour my perception of them again. I am certainly not inclined to believe that this is limited to NVIDIA. I would just say that this is the logical progression of marketing on the Internet. It's kind of hard for me to imagine it, having net access since I was seven, but consider buying products in a pre-Internet time. How do you get information? From the manufacturer? From catalogs? From one or two reviews in magazines? Now that the avenues for information have changed significantly, marketing will adjust accordingly.

But don't you think it would matter who exactly is doing this? Joe Schmo with 20 posts on 50 forums, or Joe Known with 4000 posts? If someone you've read a pretty significant sample of those 4000 posts has "Green/Red Feedback Team" in their sig (or you just know they are participants because they've said so), just how much impact is that going to have on you? Won't you have already come to a conclusion on just how much stock you put in that person's opinion? Yeah, they might get it thrown in their face at times, but if they have indpependant reputation based on long presence, isn't that going to be more credible in forming your opinion of what they are saying than anything? Good or bad? As opposed to you finding out somewhere down the road that they've been secretly part of this thing for a long time? Which is healthier for all involved? Honestly, I'm not entirely sure what you're asking here. But, I don't know that one can have an independent reputation if they're being paid off to post on forums. It's one thing to run a site, where hits determine revenue, because one will refrain from posting basic marketing tripe in order to attract a larger audience. But being given hardware regularly because you post on forums strikes me as a kind of payola. With reviewers a possible conflict of interest is assumed, but if someone is assumed to just be a regular forum dweller, that's impossible to discern unless they come out and say it. But even then, when you're dealing with such a wide variety of issues as one encoutners in forum topics (things that go beyond just direct comparisons between products--design comparisons? the importance of feature X?), how can I tell what you really think if you're being paid in hardware constantly? For that matter, how can you know what you really think if you're experiencing only what one side would have you see? At least reviewers get to experience all possible aspects.

It's not really viral marketing, Sxotty; that usually refers to something that gains popularity by association with something that has nothing to do with the original product (Halo 2 and I <3 Bees).

Sxotty

01-Dec-2005, 19:34

Say what? The viral marketing thing in your first post? It didn't resonate with me, frankly. I rather think that is not the model being followed here, but I'm certainly not sure of it.

Let me help you

Viral marketing and viral advertising refer to marketing techniques that seek to exploit pre-existing social networks to produce exponential increases in brand awareness, through viral processes similar to the spread of an epidemic. It is word-of-mouth delivered and enhanced online; it harnesses the network effect of the Internet and can be very useful in reaching a large number of people rapidly.

From AEG
Arbuthnot Entertainment Group is a leading public relations agency servicing the technology and entertainment industries. Combining expert media relations and integrated online community development, AEG will Amplify positive buzz, Elevate consumer mindshare and Generate extensive coverage of your company and its products.

Now, if you would care to explain to me what you see as the difference here. Inuendo is not more responsible than clearly stating what you mean. If you honestly do not think that they are creating a buzz for Nvidia products then what do you think they are doing tech support?

Edit for Baron:
Sorry Baron I disagree, perhaps you should write up a new thing for wikipedia expressing your opinion of what viral marketing is.

Bobbler

01-Dec-2005, 19:37

This seems like fairly typical PR that many companies do (any large forum that talks about a given product by a company will likely have some sort of PR misfit hanging around it).

I'm not really sure I'd actually want to know the details of this, as interesting as it would be, I'm afraid it would turn me off on forums all together ;)

JoshMST

01-Dec-2005, 19:42

So, Josh, you're tight with NV --asked your friends for a comment? :wink:

Oh yes, I am sure my "friends" at NV still remember the night I had a few drinks then took a double dose of Nyquil and then hit the boards after I published my SLI Interview and started posting about stuff that never happened. Ah yes, to be in good graces again... Never in my life have I woke up in the middle of the night, sat up straight in bed and said, "WTF did I just do?" So that was a pleasant first.

My simple opinion of this is "Marketing is Marketing". About the only thing that would trouble me is if NVIDIA or ATI had a secret "preferred reviewers" program. And who knows, maybe they do (obviously I am a part of it due to my site always having the latest video cards to review)! I think we can look around at most of the sites, see how their results correlate, and determine that no such program really exists.

I think in the end we all learn a little bit about the people that post around us, and we can quickly discover who exactly leans one way or the other (or in the case of folks like SSXeon or ShaidarHaran at Rage3D, who not only lean one way... but practically jump off the cliff). So these companies send these folks cards, big deal. Does what they say really sway me a lot? Not really. There are plenty of other voices with differening opinions, and I as a thinking individual will weigh the merits of their arguments and make my own decision. This board is proof positive that many highly intelligent people can get together and share differing opinions, so if a new person comes in to find out about a new card, they will not hit a wall of opinions that all shake out the same way (eg. "ATI/NVIDIA is the best".

Geo

01-Dec-2005, 19:43

What I said was that your post on it didn't resonate with me. And by that I met the "random people" part, as it made me think of a model where one guy with twenty names at dozens of sites is running around chatting a product up.

As to the other, I don't know of any way to ask a question without talking about the subject. The less I know for sure, the more careful I tend to be about my language --my fears may turn out in the end to be worse than the reality that will eventually be uncovered. If that equals "innuendo" to you, be my guest.

Geo

01-Dec-2005, 19:45

Oh yes, I am sure my "friends" at NV still remember the night I had a few drinks then took a double dose of Nyquil and then hit the boards after I published my SLI Interview and started posting about stuff that never happened. Ah yes, to be in good graces again... Never in my life have I woke up in the middle of the night, sat up straight in bed and said, "WTF did I just do?" So that was a pleasant first.

Who was that unsufferable jerk who lead you into that mess anyway? :roll: What an overly pious a-hole he was. :razz:

Sxotty

01-Dec-2005, 20:04

Random people meant that they are not nvidia employees but rather forum members that are "respected." I am not saying we should jump up and down and say Nvidia IS doing anything, but rather that there is nothing wrong with saying what they MIGHT be doing and thereafter discussing what we think about that kind of technique. Basically when you started this topic I was just suprised you seemed to approach it so tepidly, though after you edited your post it seems a little more clear.

But as has been said if people disclose their association it is cool with me, but if they hide it then they are basically lying...

JoshMST

01-Dec-2005, 20:09

But as has been said if people disclose their association it is cool with me, but if they hide it then they are basically lying...

Just because Geo doesn't disclose his NAMBLA membership, doesn't mean you can't trust him with babysitting your child :lol:

Geo

01-Dec-2005, 20:25

Just because Geo doesn't disclose his NAMBLA membership, doesn't mean you can't trust him with babysitting your child :lol:

I am not now, nor have I ever, been a 'member'. Attending those meetings was merely research. Never paid any dues.

Edit: Waitaminute, how'd this gin get in my nyquil? :razz:

JoshMST

01-Dec-2005, 20:51

Well Geo, I am glad that we have been able to effectively work with each other to essentially derail this discussion. Nice job, I hope to work with you again in the near future.

aaronspink

01-Dec-2005, 20:52

Heh, Hanners you intrigue me! :lol: That degree of caution says quite abit on its face. Why is anyone afraid to talk about this? What kind of "community outreach" requires secrecy, for gossakes?

Google Payola. Which is what these marketting firms are pretty much doing.

Community outreach is a beautiful thing. Or at least it should be. "Passionate fans" are a beautiful thing too (you don't, for instance, see me ever use "fanboi" except in jest), so long as they keep it to being positive about what they love rather than degenerate into hit-squads on the other folks.

Community outreach is usually done above board and in the public eye. Payola is usually done behind closed doors and out of the public eye. Considering we don't here too much from this company nor its relationship with Nvidia, one can only assume they utilize Payola and related tactics to try and shape the markets perception.

Aaron Spink
speaking for myself inc.

kyleb

01-Dec-2005, 20:55

Random people meant that they are not nvidia employees but rather forum members that are "respected." I am not saying we should jump up and down and say Nvidia IS doing anything,...
I think Derek Perez's glowing revview of AEG's efforts speaks for it self on that question, so at this point we are just left to wonder about the details.

Geo

01-Dec-2005, 21:17

Community outreach is usually done above board and in the public eye. Payola is usually done behind closed doors and out of the public eye. Considering we don't here too much from this company nor its relationship with Nvidia, one can only assume they utilize Payola and related tactics to try and shape the markets perception.

Hence my concern, and hence this thread. Tho the "one can only assume" part is, for my part, left to the individual reader of this discussion to decide. Call that a cop-out if you like. Personally, I'd prefer to hear from NV or AEG on the matter, and on the record. Tho I'd also add that if they AREN'T willing to address it in public, that they deserve whatever conclusions folks come to about what is going on here.

Pete

01-Dec-2005, 21:39

Pretty interesting, potentially fascinating thread. geo, what clued you into AEG in the first place?

I'd certainly like to know if there's an explicit tit-for-tat arrangement with such companies, if they're meant to sway or moderate voices, or if they merely amplify or encourage already-decided members.

Geo

01-Dec-2005, 21:49

Pretty interesting, potentially fascinating thread. geo, what clued you into AEG in the first place?

If Hanners is worried about people getting hurt (see above), I rather think I should be too. So no thanks, sorry.

ANova

01-Dec-2005, 22:34

This type of thing has been going on for quite awhile guys, but I thought that was obvious. Guess not.

Geo

01-Dec-2005, 22:45

This type of thing has been going on for quite awhile guys, but I thought that was obvious. Guess not.

Well, that's a pretty amorphous statement. Care to elaborate? For instance what does "type of thing" mean as you're using it?

Bobbler

01-Dec-2005, 22:50

This type of thing has been going on for quite awhile guys, but I thought that was obvious. Guess not.

Well, anyone who has thought about it knows that. The reason: it is an incredibly effective marketing tool (free stuff, forum/site plants/misfits, etc) and the best part is, it doesn't even seem like its marketing.

Anyone company who tries to sell stuff and has a "fan" base and isn't doing this is sorely behind the times.

But... maybe thats just my tinfoil hat talking.

aaronspink

01-Dec-2005, 22:54

Hence my concern, and hence this thread. Tho the "one can only assume" part is, for my part, left to the individual reader of this discussion to decide. Call that a cop-out if you like. Personally, I'd prefer to hear from NV or AEG on the matter, and on the record. Tho I'd also add that if they AREN'T willing to address it in public, that they deserve whatever conclusions folks come to about what is going on here.

I would say that the odds of them addressing it in public are about akin to the odds of me winning the lottery. For companies like AEG, anything they do upfront hurts their potential market impact. They are middle men, quite like the system that a lot of the record companies have gone to since Payola was outlawed. Give middle men product and lots of money. Middle men give product and some money to opinion makers. Product developer now has plausible deniability. Not all together different than lobbyists.

Aaron Spink
speaking for myself inc.

digitalwanderer

01-Dec-2005, 22:55

This type of thing has been going on for quite awhile guys, but I thought that was obvious. Guess not.
To the best of my knowledge we've never actually discovered a company that hired itself out to anyone to do it before though, which makes a bit of a difference....IMHO and all that.

ANova

01-Dec-2005, 23:01

Well, that's a pretty amorphous statement. Care to elaborate? For instance what does "type of thing" mean as you're using it?
The whole idea of paying people to act as an everyday consumer which then give praise to a product they "bought" is nothing new; it is just one of many marketing strategies.

To the best of my knowledge we've never actually discovered a company that hired itself out to anyone to do it before though, which makes a bit of a difference....IMHO and all that.

Oh it's quite common, they just try to keep it hush hush for obvious reasons and thus people rarely hear about it.

Geo

01-Dec-2005, 23:15

I would say that the odds of them addressing it in public are about akin to the odds of me winning the lottery.

Mebbee. I don't own their answers (or lack thereof). Just my questions, and my own willingness to give them an opportunity to engage in the more traditional type of "community outreach" on this subject (i.e. show up and talk about it in public). Of course, I'll be one of those who will also be coming to more definite conclusions about their aims if they pass up the opportunity to address it.

For companies like AEG, anything they do upfront hurts their potential market impact. They are middle men, quite like the system that a lot of the record companies have gone to since Payola was outlawed. Give middle men product and lots of money. Middle men give product and some money to opinion makers. Product developer now has plausible deniability. Not all together different than lobbyists.

Must be a bitch to have to have a website that talks about it then, euphemistically or not. After all, NV did provide that glowing quote for their use.

Without names of who's engaged, I'm a little uncomfortable with "payola" as a term tho. That was getting cash for playing records in your business, right? The assumption being those folks wouldn't be interested in playing those records at all, and certainly not at home, without that cash? For all we know, these folks are gaming quite happily with their new gear in their personal time, and giving genuinely happy reports on it to their friends online. To support the "payola" charge, wouldn't they have to sell the thing on ebay and use something else for personal use while still saying nice things about it online?

I'm not saying there isn't influence involved, and the secrecy makes me very unhappy, but I'm unwilling to put it quite as cold-blooded as the payola scandals. So far.

Bobbler

01-Dec-2005, 23:15

The whole idea of paying people to act as an everyday consumer which then give praise to a product they "bought" is nothing new; it is just one of many marketing strategies.

They do a simple version of that on almost every informercial around.

Bobbler

01-Dec-2005, 23:21

I'm not saying there isn't influence involved, and the secrecy makes me very unhappy, but I'm unwilling to put it quite as cold-blooded as the payola scandals. So far.

I'm with you here, I don't think, in most situations, that this is as nefarious as it may seem. It's still a case of people's opinions being influenced by outside forces though (be it from a person on a forum, or being happy to get a free product and sharing the experience, etc). It isn't inherently bad, but it is still a bit sneaky.

I can think of one recent example that was rather disturbing though (on another forum).

Sxotty

02-Dec-2005, 01:18

To the best of my knowledge we've never actually discovered a company that hired itself out to anyone to do it before though, which makes a bit of a difference....IMHO and all that.
Yeah digi there is tons of this going around I was just not aware of the particulars, of which company and whom they worked for. I can think of a good few people on this forum who would make good marks for it.

Sorry you are not one Digi, too inflamatory for it. :p

Pete

02-Dec-2005, 01:34

If Hanners is worried about people getting hurt (see above), I rather think I should be too. So no thanks, sorry.TBH, I'm a bit bemused by all this talk of "hurting" people as it relates to 3D video cards. I guess that's because I believe that if someone has in fact been co-opted (or influenced, or whisper-in-eared to) by a viral marketer, it'd be pretty obvious. I also don't suspect many people of this--almost none, in fact--so my naivete may be feeding my beliefs.

Anyway, I don't want to get anyone in trouble, I was just curious to know if anyone else here's been contacted by AEG or the like. I axe b/c I was contacted by a couple "focus groups" myself, one of them being AEG. I passed. (I really wanted to be :twisted:ish and let you guess what I did, but I don't want to derail an interesting thread. Plus, I'm not sure I lean too obviously one way or another--at least, not in an irrational way.) But now I'm curious what AEG's success rate is WRT forum-dwellers.

I didn't realize that the first rule of Focus Group is you don't talk about Focus Group, which seems to be the implication. Seems shadier than it should be. Then again, my naivete tends toward the cynical. Coincidentally, my ignorance tends toward the absolute. Glee! I mean, bliss! ;D

Geo

02-Dec-2005, 01:46

Actually, Pete, that's the most comforting public fact I've heard about this program --that you were one of those contacted to join (this would be because of my high personal regard for your temperment and independance). Can I ask why you passed?

I'm assuming you didn't sign anything, but was documentation given to you as to what it was, what your role would be, and/or an NDA to sign (or one mentioned as a requirment of the program if you agreed to join)? And do you still have it? :smile:

Also, do you recall roughly the time frame you were contacted? Just curious on that last.

Lastly, glad to hear from your pov you aren't concerned about repercussions. Hopefully you won't get any thing in your inbox over night to change your mind on that. :lol:

Edit: Ah ha, a new public term for this, maybe. They called it a "focus group"? Did they say anything about it being part of their community outreach efforts? I'm still trying to resolve the bits and pieces we have (some public, some whispered) with the verbiage on their website from both them and NV.

Sharkfood

02-Dec-2005, 02:00

Gone are the days where glowing consumer opinion was based solely on unmolested, personal experiences and feelings on things without external influences of personal gain for specific, selective opinions.

I'd be more interested if a participant in this lobbying group would actually be chastised (or lose membership) for providing their earnest opinions if those opinions deviated from the intended focus group's "focus"... hehe.

i.e. obtain free perks/hardware or similar.. have a rotten, unsatisfactory experience.. but still be inclined to provide glowing commendation contrary to personal experience anyways.

Geo

02-Dec-2005, 02:10

I'd be more interested if a participant in this lobbying group would actually be chastised (or lose membership) for providing their earnest opinions if those opinions deviated from the intended focus group's "focus"... hehe.

i.e. obtain free perks/hardware or similar.. have a rotten, unsatisfactory experience.. but still be inclined to provide glowing commendation contrary to personal experience anyways.

Until/unless the secrecy lid comes off this, we'll never know, will we? For all we know, some of these folks have been giving them critical feedback about this issue or that, in a forum where people who matter are paying attention, in the hopes of making better products to all our benefit. Could be, I suppose --but I suspect not too many people would buy that theory as long as it has Illuminati/Skull & Bones secrecy associated with being a member of it. :lol:

I rather suspect that if any AEG/NV folks are reading this, they don't think I'm trying to help them here. But I am. And the community in general, of course.

Btw, I did Focus Group once, and got paid $50 for a couple hours of my time for it. I don't recall there being an NDA tho. OTOH, it was almost ten years ago, so maybe I've just forgotten. :lol: It was an AT&T online project they were thinking of launching, "back in the day". I think they never did tho.

Sxotty

02-Dec-2005, 02:29

I did a focus group as well once, but it was to determine if a movie trailer made me want to watch the movie, and well it didn't I said so and they gave me a few bucks and a thing for free fries at chick-fil-a along with a sandwich or some such...

Focus groups however are not viral marketing, and this is not a focus group from the jist I am getting. Viral marketing btw is termed anything but by the industry, they keep trying to come up with names that sound nice, luckily they don't catch I hate it when someone tells me they are doing something nice while ripping out my teeth...

Geo

02-Dec-2005, 02:38

Focus groups however are not viral marketing, and this is not a focus group from the jist I am getting. Viral marketing btw is termed anything but by the industry, they keep trying to come up with names that sound nice, luckily they don't catch I hate it when someone tells me they are doing something nice while ripping out my teeth...

That website sure doesn't sound like "focus group" to me either. We're building a puzzle here with most of the pieces still in a box in the other room, under a pillow, and someone's sitting on it and not saying a word as we tear the house apart looking for it. If that someone doesn't like the picture some folks think they see out of the few pieces available to us, it is their own fault.

Reverend

02-Dec-2005, 04:09

A community outreach program that has the potential to get folks in trouble for talking about it is a very curious thing.Bah. I have the potential for getting folks in trouble because they chose not to talk about stuff I ask them to.

Silence may be golden but, in my experience, many times it is what someone chooses not to say that speaks a whole lot more.

Pete

02-Dec-2005, 04:11

Thanks for the kind words, geo, but I'm pretty low on the B3D totem pole in terms of both knowledge and, therefore, influence, no? (Not a trick question. :razz:) The invitations I was extended never progressed further than a PM to me here. Having read this thread, I'm regretting not having pursued them further, just to see what kind of stipulations would be attached to my participation (insert rabbit hole reference). But I demurred in part due to time and in part due to that whole strangers with candy thing--if I responded at all, that is. I suspected the offers were spam, and as much as I'd like to give my info to strangers....

I'm not sure why I'm reluctant to post the PMs here--heck, I'm even hesitant to say when I was PMed!--but there's nothing juicy in them beyond what I imagine is the usual focus group enticement: they give you something in exchange for some of your thoughts. I suppose a video card is a little more than a movie screening, and so they probably expect more detailed or simply periodic feedback in return, but that's a far cry from shilling for someone.

I'm surprised I haven't thought of this before, though, as I've read enough about how new liquor brands use viral marketers (pay "hip" ppl to hang by a bar and recommend a drink).

The implications I'm getting seem to be a bit darker than mere schwag (http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.01/schwag.html), judging by this talk of getting people into trouble. I mean, are we talking about just hurting someone's intarweb reputation or tchotchke flow, or potentially serious legal issues? I've never been involved with an NDA, so how legally binding are they WRT such a hazy sphere as marketing?

(On the subject of legality and avoiding this whole headache moving forward, can forums like B3D's stipulate no marketers parading as forum-goers in their sign-up agreement?)

Bah, so much supposed subterfuge over gaming cards. As intriguing as the topic of this thread is, I'm not fully focused on it--maybe I'll take a longer look at the AEG website later--but I'm feeling a little more cautious about this than I really should. Dunno why. Let's see if this vague and baffling wariness clears up overnight. Maybe some of this wordiness'll clear up, too. :)

Oh, and CMAN: :lol:

digitalwanderer

02-Dec-2005, 04:22

Can you say who you got the PM from Pete? :-|

Geo

02-Dec-2005, 04:42

Pete--

Not out to get you to say more in public than you think you should either, so it's up to you. Tho you'd know if you agreed to an NDA, and they aren't legally enforceable if you didn't explicitly agree. Handing you one (even virtually) doesn't bind you. Not sure if the digital millenium act would still require it to be a physical signature or not. Prolly not, but still, I think you would know. What you may have informally agreed (or not) to do about not saying anything, obviously I don't have a clue, and is between you, your memory, and your sense of honor.

Well, you do seem to have "a spectactular aura about", and 3,500 posts here to go with it (and I know I've seen you elsewhere too), and somebody thot you were credible enuf to make the offer to --so don't sell yourself too short. Of course, that's my read, but it's the only one I have. Or were you fishing for an entire "ode to Pete" thread. :razz: (j/k)

There was more than one focus group offer with free goodies? What was the other? I asked up at the top if ATI was doing this as well, and I wasn't kidding about being interested in the answer. I haven't heard yet anyone say that they have any definite knowledge that ATI has a similar program, also demanding membership be secret.

kyleb

02-Dec-2005, 04:49

Did the messages have some sort of privacy clause attached? If not, quit holding out on us already man, inquiring minds want to know! :D

Geo

02-Dec-2005, 04:52

Did the messages have some sort of privacy clause attached? If not, quit holding out on us already man, inquiring minds want to know! :D

Err, privacy clause? If you mean what I think you do, don't those only apply to messages misdelivered to an unintended recipient?

Pete

02-Dec-2005, 05:36

geo, dw's last rep (and your continuous ones--tip o' the hat) pushed me to three bars, but don't let my spectacular aura blind you. I put my pants on one leg at a time, just like everyone else. The only difference is, once my pants are on, I make hit records.

;) * 1.21GW.

Hokayyy, that's enough pop culture references for one thread. Wait, what am I saying? There can never be too much talkin' 'bout Walken!

Heh, kyle, no, I'm not bound by any NDA or privacy clause. (I don't think they've invented one yet that binds me by merely reading my own inbox, at any rate. /me crosses fingers) I'm not trying to string any of you along, and I'm not really worried about any repercussions as the advances were unsolicited. I guess I'm just slightly uncomfortable about the whole "private" part of the PM system. I suppose I'm also reluctant to subject them to public scrutiny because if we are dealing with viral marketing rather than mere focus groups, I wouldn't want a viral marketer to learn from any mistakes in their approach we'd point out. Like I said, I'll probably get over it (and myself) tomorrow, but you guys really aren't missing much.

Anyway, one offer was from AEG (thus my asking what spurred you, geo--maybe you received a similar offer), the other I don't know who from. I received both this summer. They're the only ones I've received in any forum I'm active in.

I'm not sure ATI would need to do so at B3D, simply b/c they allow employees to post here. Then again, I'm not sure the forum dynamic at B3D is the same as at larger, less-focused video forums, so the impetus may not be as strong.

Geo

02-Dec-2005, 05:50

Anyway, one offer was from AEG (thus my asking what spurred you, geo--maybe you received a similar offer), the other I don't know who from. I received both this summer. They're the only ones I've received in any forum I'm active in.

Nope, I never got such an offer from AEG or anyone else. Possibly I would have been interested. . .right up until I realized I couldn't tell anyone I was doing it. Tho more likely I'd have said no thanks as you did. Prolly I would have started a "Hey, guess what I got, should I?" thread. :lol:

kyleb

02-Dec-2005, 06:05

Heh, when I said 'privacy clause' I was thinking something like "by responding to this message you agree that all this and all further cominication will be kept confedential or you forfit your immortal soul..." or something along those lines. But as for the issue at hand, I think we should be able to agree that what is talked about on www.aeginfo.com is neither focus groups (http://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial_s&hl=en&q=define%3A+focus+group&btnG=Google+Search) nor viral marketing (http://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial_s&hl=en&q=define%3A+viral+marketing&btnG=Google+Search). I pretty sure a label doesn't exist for this type of operation yet, which makes any relevant information all the more interesting.

2senile

02-Dec-2005, 07:21

Doesn't sound too good to me thus far.

What I'd consider acceptable is if these persons were simply given product in order to provide external, independent evaluation for the manufacturer.

What I'd consider totally unacceptable is if part of the agreement called for them to make any sort of comment in a Forum without "declaring an interest".

The previous comments about a fear of "getting people into trouble" is .....urgh .... troubling me.

dizietsma

02-Dec-2005, 08:37

Tthis is just another flavour of websites being kept in line by the threat of removal of hardware to test or by getting cherry picked examples of products to make sure they give a glowing report. Does anyone for instance think that memory supplied by memory manufacturers is not cherry picked to make sure it gives the best overclock ?

If the websites get manipulated it is not surprising that the people who frequent them also get manipulated by gifts. I don't actually care to be honest, if you buy product A rather than B because someone you have never met influences you ( whether it be the website journo or a website forum goer ) then you have to take the consequences.

To be honest I doubt that neither nvidia or Ati have managed to change or add to peoples current outlook much in comparison to how their own performance is doing. It was nvidia = bad, Ati = good, but now the boot seems to be on the other foot, at least for the moment, and no amount of paid mercenary's will change that much.

Hanners

02-Dec-2005, 09:05

The implications I'm getting seem to be a bit darker than mere schwag (http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.01/schwag.html), judging by this talk of getting people into trouble. I mean, are we talking about just hurting someone's intarweb reputation or tchotchke flow, or potentially serious legal issues? I've never been involved with an NDA, so how legally binding are they WRT such a hazy sphere as marketing?

I can't speak for anyone else, but the only reason I've been cagey about saying too much is to protect my sources - Not in an 'or they'll end up sleeping with the fishes' kind of way, rather so as not to alert anybody as to where the information came from.

Anyway, I've mentioned pretty much all I know as of right now, although I am following up on a couple of other leads.

Jawed

02-Dec-2005, 09:38

I wonder if this explains all the people over the last 18 months who "tried NVidia again".

It's worth noting this programme is well-established.

Jawed

ByteMe

02-Dec-2005, 09:51

I guess it all depends on whether you consider getting free boards as 'payment'.

If I remember correctly, B3D uses free boards for review.

rwolf

02-Dec-2005, 10:04

AEG provides a wide range of services to increase exposure and increase positive buzz for our clients and their products.

COMMUNITY RELATIONS
- Fan site development and monitoring
- FSK (Fan Site Kit)
- Community management
- Message board monitoring and response
- Strategic seeding viral assets to ensure they are spread far and wide
- Optimization and re-purposing of existing content, creative and assets

I finally figured out who Chalnoth works for. :twisted:

CRISIS MANAGEMENT
- Strategic counsel and implementation: Fires, Misinformation, Rumors, Leaks

This is interesting....

Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.

02-Dec-2005, 10:40

This all comes from "Blair Witch Project". They had no money for marketing, so the makers set up loads of mysterious websites, and went to forums all over the internet pretending to be genuine members of the public interested in the movie.

Now we have big corporations hiring marketing companies to do the same thing. Basically to lie to the public by pretending they are just normal customers with nothing but their true opinions and experiences, when in fact they are paid for advertisers whose "truthful opinions" are whatever their clients tell them to say.

Hanners

02-Dec-2005, 11:13

If I remember correctly, B3D uses free boards for review.

But not in return for evangelising products. There's quite a difference between web sites receiving sample boards for review (most of which are just temporary loans anyway) and being given boards to keep in return for 'spreading the word' about a particular product or company.

Geo

02-Dec-2005, 13:25

If I remember correctly, B3D uses free boards for review.

And you know it. That's the point. You can give it whatever weight you think that fact deserves. Some would say 'none', some would say 'a bit', and I've seriously read on these boards in the past somebody say (I forget who) that they'd never trust a review by someone who got the board for free. That whole range is available for you to choose from when you know.

Geo

02-Dec-2005, 13:34

I wonder if this explains all the people over the last 18 months who "tried NVidia again".

It's worth noting this programme is well-established.

Jawed

In part this is why I asked Pete when he was contacted, and he said this summer. Tho of course it is possible it goes back further. This, actually, is one of my fears when I read that AEG website and the glowing comments from DP --that NV could have learned the wrong lesson from the FX fiasco and 6/7800 renaissance. In my book they've done better the last 18 months primarily for two reasons --One, because they've had much better product than the previous 18 months, and Two, the missteps of their competition.

Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.

02-Dec-2005, 13:38

In part this is why I asked Pete when he was contacted, and he said this summer. Tho of course it is possible it goes back further. This, actually, is one of my fears when I read that AEG website and the glowing comments from DP --that NV could have learned the wrong lesson from the FX fiasco and 6/7800 renaissance. In my book they've done better the last 18 months primarily for two reasons --One, because they've had much better product than the previous 18 months, and Two, the missteps of their competition.
Are you suggesting that rather than learning not to lie and cheat, NV have simply learned not to get caught? Certainly hiring an external company gives them "plausible deniability", though it's pretty obvious how AEG work from their own website, and a person would have to be pretty stupid to think that Nvidia don't know this.

Jawed

02-Dec-2005, 13:45

Being super-cynical, right now, I would point the finger squarely at SLI.

SLI, being an "entirely new product" which NVidia is the only maker of, was a perfect example of a "community supported" product.

If there's any product that is likely to have been pumped-up by community action, there it is.

Having been a well-healed enthusiast in an alternative sphere of consumer-fanboism (if you like) I know it's all too easy for real enthusiasts to spend huge amounts of money on "trinkets" (as perceived by outsiders). SLI is the perfect example. So there's no reason to suggest that there's any shortage of SLI-enthusiasts who spent their own money. But I also know that such enthusiasts are a vanishingly small part of the pool and have a wildly disproportionate effect on the aspirations or at least opinions of the remainder of the community.

But, at the same time, I have to say it appears to have been the perfect product for viral marketing to work it's "wicked ways". Despite the shoddy road of faults, incompatibilities and downright poor value for money SLI is "perceived" by the community at large as a good thing.

I'm sure Perez is more than delighted by the community's love for SLI.

Jawed

Jawed

02-Dec-2005, 13:47

p.s., by "community supported" I should also include certain, how shall we say, less-than-critical web sites (i.e. not their forums).

Some web-sites took an awfully long time to realise that SLI is no panacea.

Jawed

Geo

02-Dec-2005, 13:48

Are you suggesting that rather than learning not to lie and cheat, NV have simply learned not to get caught? Certainly hiring an external company gives them "plausible deniability", though it's pretty obvious how AEG work from their own website, and a person would have to be pretty stupid to think that Nvidia don't know this.

No. I'm suggesting that they may have learned that better "online commnunity management" is responsible for their recent successes rather than better product. That would be a tragedy.

It would be interesting to know when they started working with AEG tho, and who's idea it was. You could wonder if this was an internal rebuke to NV PR --that the decision was made in the aftermath of FX to outsource it because internally they weren't perceived as doing an effective job in this area (i.e. online community liason). You may recall, back in the ugly days, there was no lack of folks who said things in forums around the net along the lines of they wanted NV PR cleaned out, didn't want to deal with them, knew they were lying when their lips moved, etc, and called for some heads on a platter. NV could have looked at that, and somewhere in the chain of command decided they needed some new folks dealing with the community.

Edit: The problem with this theory, tho, is we haven't seen any webbies pop-up and say "Oh, yes, I've worked with them --great folks, helped me out with info what I needed it" or whatnot. Some of the other quotes on that website from other projects seem to imply they have that skillset and responsibility to do that for those other clients. A goodly part of what alarmed me initially was how invisible these guys are in the graphics card community when "community outreach" is supposed to be what they are doing.

EditII: Was unhappy with a word, so changed it.

Sxotty

02-Dec-2005, 14:00

is neither viral marketing. I pretty sure a label doesn't exist for this type of operation yet, which makes any relevant information all the more interesting.

Actually it is, check wikipedia's definition I linked to earlier. The true measure of viral marketing is that it uses a preexisting social network to propogate itself without those being exposed to it, knowing that the person who originated it is in pay. If you make hype on a forum that is exactly what it is.

digitalwanderer

02-Dec-2005, 14:24

Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.

02-Dec-2005, 14:36

Being super-cynical, right now, I would point the finger squarely at SLI.

SLI, being an "entirely new product" which NVidia is the only maker of, was a perfect example of a "community supported" product.

If there's any product that is likely to have been pumped-up by community action, there it is.

But, at the same time, I have to say it appears to have been the perfect product for viral marketing to work it's "wicked ways". Despite the shoddy road of faults, incompatibilities and downright poor value for money SLI is "perceived" by the community at large as a good thing.

I'm sure Perez is more than delighted by the community's love for SLI.

Jawed

There are a lot of enthusiasts that don't support SLI, yet why do we think it's such a success? Nvidia tells us SLI is doing great guns, but that's just selling chipsets - no one really knows how many of those motherboards are going to have two graphics cards in them.

In fact, I wonder if the whole "success", and even your idea that it *is" a success is a product of that targeted surrepticious marketing campaign. It was after all one of the cornerstones of Nvidia regaining it's performance leadership (at least as far as the public perception goes), so maybe that was all smoke and mirrors too? I wonder if SLI is a success for Nvidia because it is *seen* as a success by the market, where in fact it doesn't really sell enough to be considered a commercial success?

tEd

02-Dec-2005, 14:37

CRISIS MANAGEMENT
- Strategic counsel and implementation: Fires, Misinformation, Rumors, Leaks

This is interesting....

Indeed , in a disturbing kind of way!

Jawed

02-Dec-2005, 14:39

"Perceived"

Jawed

Geo

02-Dec-2005, 14:40

There are a lot of enthusiasts that don't support SLI, yet why do we think it's such a success? Nvidia tells us SLI is doing great guns, but that's just selling chipsets - no one really knows how many of those motherboards are going to have two graphics cards in them.

In fact, I wonder if the whole "success", and even your idea that it *is" a success is a product of that targeted surrepticious marketing campaign. It was after all one of the cornerstones of Nvidia regaining it's performance leadership (at least as far as the public perception goes), so maybe that was all smoke and mirrors too? I wonder if SLI is a success for Nvidia because it is *seen* as a success by the market, where in fact it doesn't really sell enough to be considered a commercial success?

Well, there is not only just us in the online world, y'know. I recall one of Jen's crowing points last call was that PC Mag had done a top-end systems review, and they all had SLI in them. SLI *is* a success for NV, we really ought to let that old canard go that it isn't. How much of one is a reasonable question.

kyleb

02-Dec-2005, 14:51

*edited for the right quote*
Actually it is, check wikipedia's definition I linked to earlier. The true measure of viral marketing is that it uses a preexisting social network to propogate itself without those being exposed to it, knowing that the person who originated it is in pay. If you make hype on a forum that is exactly what it is.

Yeah I saw your post, but note that it lists the goal; ""to produce exponential increases in brand awareness." That is marketing, and if you check AEG's list of services you will notice that they cover much more than that.

Geo

02-Dec-2005, 14:53

Yeah I saw your post, but note that it lists the goal; ""to produce exponential increases in brand awareness." That is marketing, and if you check AEG's list of services you will notice that they cover much more than that.

Sure. They are two different points tho, whether it is a success, and how that success was achieved. I thot Jawed's original point, that the introduction and adoption of SLI was an obvious situation for AEG to work their magic, was pretty good insight.

Rys

02-Dec-2005, 14:54

SLI seems a very poor case in point, to me, as someone that's used it since months before release. Almost all reviews were open in their early criticism of obvious faults, following that with, "it's getting better", and recently it's, "it's pretty great if you can afford it" (which it is), as sites continue to evaluate it.

I don't think any community outreach would have affected any of that sentiment from hardware sites. And herein lies the rub with all this, for me. They're doing well enough now that why bother with something like this in the PC space, on B3D of all places, while they execute properly? The people here with knowledge of the company and its hardware are all the community outreach they need, and it's free and transparent. I don't see the need for it.

Saying that, I can see the good and bad sides of what seems to be going on, and more good than bad if I'm truthful, but that's only the case as long as they carry on making good products that can honestly be evangalised (which is what this thing seems to want to achieve) without lying or falsehoods, by smart people that understand the messaging and hardware. Spending money with someone like AEG to get further accurate, good messaging out via the community on good products is fine by me for the most part.

If it's like seeding an out of work, knowledgeable reviewer with hardware, but that reviewer doesn't have a place to publish other than forums, then I'm quite happy with that concept.

Jawed

02-Dec-2005, 14:59

Hexus was notable for being a lone, sceptical, voice on SLI, in my opinion - back in the initial release period.

Jawed

JoshMST

02-Dec-2005, 15:05

Dave Baumann

02-Dec-2005, 15:08

They're doing well enough now that why bother with something like this in the PC space, on B3D of all places, while they execute properly?

???

JoshMST

02-Dec-2005, 15:13

???

Heh, I think the point Rys was getting at is that B3D is filled with people about as trusting as Al Capone, and behind every anonymous poster that is not well known are the dark hands of Derek Perez!

Speaking of which, why do you guys feel that DP is the Karl Rove of the graphics industry?

Hanners

02-Dec-2005, 15:13

Wow, you guys really don't like SLI do you? While it is obvious that the technology is not perfect, it isn't terrible either. Sure, it is expensive, and while people are buying SLI motherboards "just in case" they want to upgrade to two cards, I think most people generally stay with one.

SLI to me is merely another consumer option that is out there for those that feel they can actually utilize it, and more importantly afford it. I still shudder at the thought of some guy out there buying two 7800 512's for SLI and paying $1500 for that priveledge. Do you know what kind of holiday that would buy for some pasty white geek that rarely gets out of the basement? :P

Indeed - I have to confess that I viewed SLI as somewhat gimmicky (and, as others have said, with a few flaws which have since largely been resolved), yet now, 18 months or so later, I find myself running with an SLI setup in my primary system! Sure, it's expensive, but if the money doesn't concern you it's hard to fault it particularly from a technical standpoint now.

Druga Runda

02-Dec-2005, 15:14

well personally i thought that this idea was out of touch with reality, as it certainly seems too expensive to support for a little bit of viral marketing, but with what I figured out today it does seem to me that it is happening. :|

Rys

02-Dec-2005, 15:18

???
They asked Pete, didn't they, here? I'm confused as to why they chose your forums, when the majority of the posters here can spot a ****** from 1000 miles. Although maybe that's exactly why, since Pete is absolutely nothing of the sort. Like I said, smart people are cool for this kind of stuff, IMO.

kyleb

02-Dec-2005, 15:27

Sure. They are two different points tho, whether it is a success, and how that success was achieved. I thot Jawed's original point, that the introduction and adoption of SLI was an obvious situation for AEG to work their magic, was pretty good insight.

Heh, I quoted the wrong person back there but I thank you for trying to interpert it to suit my quote of you and I do agree with your opinion of Jawed's point. Anyway, I fixed my previous post so it should make more sense now. :oops:

Druga Runda

02-Dec-2005, 15:27

Tho I'd also add that if they AREN'T willing to address it in public, that they deserve whatever conclusions folks come to about what is going on here.

an opinion of a consumer like me is not very pretty... and ummhmmm... not that this kind of thing is not allowed by law, but it is just going to destroy the very communities that are providing the marketing platform for those ******* (put in whatever you want in there)

digitalwanderer

02-Dec-2005, 15:43

Slightly OT, but has anyone seen anything posted up about this on any site or forum besides here or Elite Bastards?

And Dave? It ain't "???", it's "!!!".

JoshMST

02-Dec-2005, 15:53

Slightly OT, but has anyone seen anything posted up about this on any site or forum besides here or Elite Bastards?

I'm sorry, but my contract with AEG specifically forbids me to mention their existence and their nefarious marketing schemes in relation to public forums. :lol:

wireframe

02-Dec-2005, 16:20

Slightly OT, but has anyone seen anything posted up about this on any site or forum besides here or Elite Bastards?
Well, just like the Illuminati, this group only lets its presence be known where and when it wants it to be known.

Personally, I don't care what they do as long as they pay the bills...

WHOOOPS!!! :oops:

Geo

02-Dec-2005, 16:23

_xxx_

02-Dec-2005, 16:24

???

I think he meant that people here are too knowledgable to fall for such tricks compared to say, NVNews or R3D.

B3D community is AEG's worst nightmare! :lol:

Besides, I always thought AEG (http://www.aeg.de/index_e.html) is making household devices ??? :twisted:

Geo

02-Dec-2005, 16:29

I'm sorry, but my contract with AEG specifically forbids me to mention their existence and their nefarious marketing schemes in relation to public forums. :lol:

Y'know, Josh, I get the sense you're a little hurt you weren't included. :lol:

Druga Runda

02-Dec-2005, 16:29

Originally Posted by rwolf

CRISIS MANAGEMENT
- Strategic counsel and implementation: Fires, Misinformation, Rumors, Leaks

This is interesting....

Indeed , in a disturbing kind of way!
what are the odds that the webpage will soon change. This was a mistake 101.

Rys

02-Dec-2005, 16:31

I don't disagree, but I come to a different conclusion. I think early on positive word-of-mouth from early adopters was just about all the momentum it had. Now we have to wonder how much of that was the result of undisclosed freebies (and whatever impact you put on the effect of that) rather than genuine my-own-money-on-the-line-here adopters.
All depends on how many are involved, and who they are, to determine if what they said carried any kind of weight. And so we come full circle.

Rys

02-Dec-2005, 16:33

Strategic counsel and implementation: Fires, Misinformation, Rumors, Leaks

I certainly read it as the management of those things, if they happen, rather than the creation of.

Dave Baumann

02-Dec-2005, 16:37

I think he meant that people here are too knowledgable to fall for such tricks compared to say, NVNews or R3D.

B3D community is AEG's worst nightmare! :lol:
Well, it seems that Pete stopped short of saying that. Users have been contacted through the forums here, though - I was forwarded a PM from them in August.

Sxotty

02-Dec-2005, 16:50

This all comes from "Blair Witch Project". They had no money for marketing, so the makers set up loads of mysterious websites, and went to forums all over the internet pretending to be genuine members of the public interested in the movie.
Actually BZB this is not true, but who knows where it really started. Here is a true story.

There was an author, though he was unpublished, so he paid to print up a few copies of his book and then went around to all the bookshops asking if they had his particular book, they asked their managers, who asked the suppliers, soon the publishers were beating down his door to get his book so they could pulbish it, but it was him who created the need for his book originally. This occured in England btw, and it was some well known dude, but I cannot remember hs name. I am sure people did this before to. Of course there is a slight difference and I see it. The difference being he promoted his book secretly to stores and hence publishers. This is promoting nearer the ground level, but not quite to consumer's. At least it is supposed to be towards the opinion makers...

digitalwanderer

02-Dec-2005, 16:50

Well, it seems that Pete stopped short of saying that. Users have been contacted through the forums here, though - I was forwarded a PM from them in August.
Did you contact AEG or look into their company?

Rys

02-Dec-2005, 16:53

Maybe I'm being thick, but (bold is mine):
The invitations I was extended never progressed further than a PM to me here

Geo

02-Dec-2005, 16:59

Well, it seems that Pete stopped short of saying that. Users have been contacted through the forums here, though - I was forwarded a PM from them in August.

And then user classes came in and Registereds lost their ability to PM. Cause and effect?

kyleb

02-Dec-2005, 16:59

digitalwanderer

02-Dec-2005, 17:00

Maybe I'm being thick, but (bold is mine):
Which part don't you get?

Rys

02-Dec-2005, 17:06

Geo

02-Dec-2005, 17:11

Well, it seems that Pete stopped short of saying that. Users have been contacted through the forums here, though - I was forwarded a PM from them in August.

To wonder a little more concretly, the new groups came in Aug. 28, http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showpost.php?p=553347&postcount=1 including this observation:

“Registered” users have very low privileges as we have noticed an increased trend in people registering to the forums and spamming or phishing forum members, so to get PM capabilities you have to have at least contributed.

Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.

02-Dec-2005, 17:13

Actually BZB this is not true, but who knows where it really started. Here is a true story.

There was an author, though he was unpublished, so he paid to print up a few copies of

The Blair Witch was the first time the anonymity of the internet and internet communities were used for this kind of viral marketing - not that it was called that back then.

digitalwanderer

02-Dec-2005, 17:21

It seemed as if Dave was asking, with his question marks and bolding of "on B3D of all places", how I knew they were operating at B3D, when Pete had said just that earlier in the thread. That's what's confusing me.
Ah, got it. I was confused because he had the question marks as if he had no clue about AEG operating here yet he'd already been contacted by them. :???:

I think I'm confused, I stayed up too late last night. :oops:

Druga Runda

02-Dec-2005, 17:36

anyone posted this (http://www.aeginfo.com/about.html)

We're also experts at employing grass roots strategies. Our goal is to empower a community's key influencers so that the customer is being guided by one of his or her own as opposed to a corporate "imposter". We provide these influencers with consistent and compelling content - stuff the communities are thirsting for. We can work with our clients to help create this content, or even identify materials that can be re-purposed from traditional marketing and PR efforts.
If you're spending money promoting a product before release - be it video games, movies, music, or TV - where are you driving your audience? In today's wired world, people go to the Internet to get more information and to find out what others are saying. Our job is to ensure your product is positioned in the best light possible so that a consumer sticks with you through purchase. We make sure that potential customers using the Internet to seek information about your product are rewarded with a positive and compelling experience. The result? We turn customers into evangelists: the most valuable component of any marketing campaign.

Looks like an older "more hardcore" and honest version of what they do

Druga Runda

02-Dec-2005, 17:42

all that I can say is WOW

http://www.aeginfo.com/graphics/spacer.gif
REFERENCES
"I've had the pleasure to work with Arbuthnot Communications from their origins more than eight years ago and consider them a critical component to our marketing efforts. From my perspective, the most powerful form of marketing for any entertainment property is 'positive word of mouth,' and the Internet is the ideal communication vehicle to help spread that buzz. Arbuthnot recognizes this like no other agency I've worked with, and knows what it takes to build this 'must-have' buzz. While most PR agencies find it beneath them or a waste of their time to interact with the smallest fan site or the most remote online forum, Arbuthnot understands that these passionate fans are the ones that turn so-so titles into blockbusters. The slow and steady process of 'magnifying the mania' with these loyal fans is what Arbuthnot is all about, and they execute better than anyone in the business. They have delivered results on many million-selling PC games like Age of Empires and MechWarrior, and are approaching Microsoft's highly anticipated Xbox titles with the same level of detail - delivering the same high level of success.

For more than eight years now, I've considered Arbuthnot our 'secret weapon' compared with the marketing teams at other game publishers and look forward to working with them for many years to come."

Christopher Di Cesare
Group Product Manager, Microsoft Games Studios

how does it feel getting screwed by the marketing men. (http://www.aeginfo.com/references.html)
:?:

gotta go now but :shock: that was as good a reference as it gets

ERK

02-Dec-2005, 18:13

To wonder a little more concretly, the new groups came in Aug. 28, http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showpost.php?p=553347&postcount=1 including this observation:

Wow, geo, that was a good find. You're really living up to your status of many green jewels.

aaronspink

02-Dec-2005, 20:05

Strategic counsel and implementation: Fires, Misinformation, Rumors, Leaks

I certainly read it as the management of those things, if they happen, rather than the creation of.

There is always a large grey zone between management of and management to. In all honesty, from what is publically available on AEG, they appear very nefarious. There is a difference between someone who works for Nvidia posting when required to correct dis-information or rumors and provide a nudge in the right direction, and an outside firm hired with the full benefit of plausible deniability that is working in the shadows using bribes or manchurian posters.

Aaron Spink
speaking for myself inc.

Geo

02-Dec-2005, 21:24

Hanners, EIC of Elite Bastards, weighs in further:

http://www.elitebastards.com/page.php?pageid=12863

Jawed

02-Dec-2005, 21:38

How long before The Inquirer posts an exclusive article on this subject?...

Jawed

ANova

02-Dec-2005, 21:54

I've beat this horse enough.

Druga Runda

02-Dec-2005, 21:55

How long before The Inquirer posts an exclusive article on this subject?...

Jawed
I'd rather ask what does it take for Nvidia or AEG to give some kind of response ;) The Inq is welcome to give the subject much needed publicity IMO, and than see what kind of effect this will have on various on-line communities.

Whether there will be nothing - moving on business as usual, or will there be increased sniping at others not only as fanb0is but as new COD category (Community Outreach Drones :mrgreen: )...

Lets not forget it is not only Nvidia using this company, there is a bunch of others, most notable other customer for this community is Microsoft Game Studios promoting Xbox and MSFT published games... or 2K games. Anyhow their actions could have reprecussions for various communities and well lets see how it develops.

Zaphod

02-Dec-2005, 22:09

Hanners, EIC of Elite Bastards, weighs in further:Hmm...

Yesterday, this information was brought in to the public domain courtesy of Beyond 3D forum member geo, in this thread. The information supplied to him matches information I myself received just the day before.<tinfoil>
Wouldn't such information beeing passed to 'influential community members' causing buzz and attention on internet forums (like that article and this thread) be consideried *exactly* the kind of strategy we're talking about here? Oh, the irony.

Now I'm really interrested in who have been passing this around to be propagated into the public space like this...
</tinfoil>

wireframe

02-Dec-2005, 22:16

There is a difference between someone who works for Nvidia posting when required to correct dis-information or rumors and provide a nudge in the right direction, and an outside firm hired with the full benefit of plausible deniability that is working in the shadows using bribes or manchurian posters.
Well, the Manchurian posters should be pretty easy to spot by tracking Manchurian IPs...

This thread reminded me of another discussion a long time ago. Basically, I was looking at this quote from AEG, rpovided by Druga Runda

Our goal is to empower a community's key influencers so that the customer is being guided by one of his or her own as opposed to a corporate "imposter".

So, this tells me that they don't play pretend enthusiast while sitting there with a clipboard and playing a vBulletin version of chess. They provide support for those they believe can most influence the community. This doesn't sound so horrible to me, but maybe that's because I don't know the details.

At any rate, like I said, when I read it this way I was reminded of something Dave Baumann once said in a similar discussion. How I remembered it was that he had better contact with ATI, or partners such as Club3D, more accurately, and they provided him with better material and this was the explanation for why most of his commentary was about ATi...and perhaps mostly favorable.

I couldn't find exactly what I thought I remembered, but I managed to dig up two interesting threads where this basic message is conveyed by both Dave Baumann and Reverend (and others). Links below:

Final Doom 3 benches at HardOCP (http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12248&page=26)
Inq Rant Hardware Sites "Docile Ass-Kissers" (http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18682&page=2)
note: I have posted a link to the thread, not a specific post. I have also tried to link to the page with the most relevant post, but you really need to read the progression of the discussion to get the idea in some cases

So, without accusing anyone (even AEG) of anything, isn't this thing exactly what is happening here and everywhere else, although it may not always be a "pro" doing it? Some of you seem very upset at AEG so I hope you don't think I am taking that view and trying to paste it onto B3D or any of its members. What I am saying and question is:

1. Is what AEG is doing really so nefarious? Do we have any "evil" examples or could this "empowering" simply be that they look for places where people come for information about 3D hardware (for example, they seem to deal with various products and are experts at the technique rather than the final goods sold), find out who the key influencers are and give them the tools they need to include their client when they talk shop? This to me could mean some interesting but hard to find information, a nice presentation of some information, maybe even products to test and give away. In other words, I don't read this as bribing. "Here is $10,000. Say something nice about <insert client's name>."

2. If what I wrote above is true, how is this different from if a web site deals with an IHV directly through "good contacts"? Wouldn't those good contacts essentially be doing the same thing? They are not your friend by chance. They have something, you need something, they also need something, a partnership forms. Again, this partnership should be viewed as symbiotic and not one of being bought. I just think people are looking a bit too deeply in this without any proof when this could just be a centralized way of distributing information and even products for review. An IHV may not have the resources to look at all this information so it may be best for this AEG company to decide who gets to play because they spend their day analyzing that and not designing and building hardware.

Anyways. Just some thoughts. Again, I hope I haven't offended anyone, especially Dave Baumann or Reverend who I refer to by name in giving the links. There are, of course, others discussing these kinds of matters in those links, but I will let you decide for yourself who is saying what and for what reason.

PS. I hope this kind of "discovery" doesn't lead to some kind of digital witchhunt.

Sharkfood

02-Dec-2005, 22:33

Geo

02-Dec-2005, 22:33

Hmm...

<tinfoil>
Wouldn't such information beeing passed to 'influential community members' causing buzz and attention on internet forums (like that article and this thread) be consideried *exactly* the kind of strategy we're talking about here? Oh, the irony.

Now I'm really interrested in who have been passing this around to be propagated into the public space like this...
</tinfoil>

Actually, no. Hanners just told you someone tipped him. Make of it what you will --at least you have the info to do it. And I really rather doubt he received anything of pecuniary interest to go with it.

Edit: Oh yeah, and I can state catagorically in my own case I didn't get any goodies. My interest here is entirely prophylactic.

Zaphod

02-Dec-2005, 22:41

Actually, no. Hanners just told you someone tipped him. Make of it what you will --at least you have the info to do it. And I really rather doubt he received anything of pecuniary interest to go with it.Thus the in-part-jest <tinfoil> tags.

But I'm also partly serious, and not all 'tinfoil'. The whole 'information has reached a number of parties' makes me wonder. I'm not asking anyone to name names or 'out' sources, but in general it should apply to all journalism (and on message boards for that matter) that you provide at least a hint in the general direction of what position the source may have. It helps gauge the credibility (and perhaps motives) of the information and removes the validity of the 'tinfoil' scenario above.

And that's exactly what's beeing discussed here, is it not? If it's just 'information' the source and motivation of the person giving it doesn't matter, right?

wireframe

02-Dec-2005, 22:43

Hmm.. another interesting thing I'm pondering...

I wonder if this Online Community Outreach program also implements competitor smear campaigns as part of their product "buzz" effort.

For example, a paid member of the focus group is to report falsely negative experiences (in contrast to) positive experience with the focus group's hardware.

If so.. this would go a long ways towards explaining the [H]ard forums. :D
That would seem unlikely on the premise that it would be very risky. It's one thing to give someone a video card and then having them report "I'm happy" and "this is what I like about it," which would be all true and it's quite another to just invent information. Then again, that information, the smear, could be true. That I believe happens quite a bit, where people are tipped off what is bad about the competing product to the one they are supposed to be endorsing.

I must be a very gentle person compared to some of you because I don't assume it is as bad as it sounds. I do, however, have some theories about certain people on certain forums. Theories that I had long before this whole thing started. It would be so very satisfying to find out if my hunch was correct.

Bah...I will put on my deerstalker and suck on my pipe for now :wink:

PS. If this thing was as big as everyone thinks and has been going on for a while, from what it seems, don't you think someone would have made a story of it sooner? That may be a roundabout way of looking at ti, but I get the feeling that those involved, those "recruited", probably felt that what they were doing was not a big deal so nobody broke down and spilled the beans after leaving....but maybe it's a case of "nobody ever leaves AEG...ever....are we clear?" :razz:

Oh, one more thing...has anyone already suggested that a firm competing with AEG may have leaked the information about AEG using secret leaks? You know, recruited some respectable community members to smear AEG. heh.

Geo

02-Dec-2005, 22:51

And that's exactly what's beeing discussed here, is it not? If it's just 'information' the source and motivation of the person giving it doesn't matter, right?

Maybe, maybe not. Sometimes "information" is assumed rather than stated, and if that assumption is wrong there is still misinformation that has happened. We talked about SLI upstream. That's a pricey piece of kit. If someone tells you they really like their new SLI rig, that piece of "information" could be 100% legit. But you probably assumed and internalized another piece of "information" that may or may not be true --that Joe Known plopped down $1,000 of his bank account on that, and having spent that much of his own hard-earned bread, he's *still* happy with it. That's a powerful piece of "information" you may have just been mislead on, even tho no "lie" has been told.

Edit: To be explicit, you just got the message that Joe Known by his happy chatter, thinks the price/performance of SLI is just fine. Wasn't that a major issue early on, and still to many today? But this is just an example of why your formulation isn't all that easy.

Zaphod

02-Dec-2005, 22:59

Maybe, maybe not. Sometimes "information" is assumed rather than stated, and if that assumption is wrong there is still misinformation that has happened.Ah, see. We're in complete agreement. I newer was any good at them rethorical question thingies... :smile:

Sharkfood

02-Dec-2005, 23:03

ben6

02-Dec-2005, 23:06

Jawed

02-Dec-2005, 23:07

Geo

02-Dec-2005, 23:16

I presume Dave has direct access to the content of everyone's PMs. A swift database search should pull up everyone who was contacted by PM.

Eesh. That kind of thing with PM would be rather destructive of trust, don't you think? Someone mentioned McCarthy upstream --do we really want to have a go at destroying ourselves rather than let AEG do their thing? I'd vote 'no'. I've been generally pretty happy with the fact that this thread has for the most part refrained from throwing "suspects" out, and then descending on them with pitchforks. It is a great concern of mine that not happen.

Rys

02-Dec-2005, 23:26

Eesh. That kind of thing with PM would be rather destructive of trust, don't you think? Someone mentioned McCarthy upstream --do we really want to have a go at destroying ourselves rather than let AEG do it? I'd vote 'no'. I've been generally pretty happy with the fact that this thread has for the most part refrained from throwing "suspects" out, and then descending on them with pitchforks. It is a great concern of mine that not happen.
Yes.

At the very least, I don't want him seeing the PMs of me and Neeyik talking about how to stitch him up on April Fools, since he'll know what we're up to. And Pete's obsession with latex :!:

Jawed

02-Dec-2005, 23:26

I didn't mean to imply that Dave would, if he could read PMs, announce who's to be strung up.

Jawed

Putas

02-Dec-2005, 23:32

So basically some people are being paid (by presents) for praising products on forums, where they are like "speaking for myself". I guess this may be classified as hidden advert and therefore a crime, at least in some countries.

Jawed

02-Dec-2005, 23:33

Can we imagine a rash of forums across the net adding a "no shilling" clause to their rules?

Jawed

wireframe

02-Dec-2005, 23:33

Another interesting thing I've been pondering on this whole subject.

If we assume that some of these AEG agents are here at Beyond3D and do indeed participate in their outreach program...

They must be highly nervous reading how this thread develops! I also wonder just how tempting it is for them to hit that "Reply" button and try to dispell some "Nothing to see here! I think this whole thing is GREAT!" LOL

Well, when you say AEG agent, you mean a forum member that has been "appraoched," rigth? And not someone who has been sitting in seminars in AEG HQ. So, if I interpret this situation correctly, playing it down as it were, those people would not feel threatened because they really haven't done anything wrong. It would simply be some person on this forum who has a high level of respectability. Someone people tend to listen to. We could make a list of names, but that would just be unnecessarily rude.

I have a perfect candidate from another board and I bet if some of you read other 3D forums (I am not going to name the forum or the person) and think a little bit about it, you'd say "yeah, obviously!!!" too. heh. (I'm probably wrong...heh) So, in that sense, reading about this, getting a confirmation, is very rewarding to me because sometimes I suspect myself of suspecting others a bit too much. I may not be totally crazy then! :razz:

JoshMST

02-Dec-2005, 23:35

I think Geo is actually the primary suspect, and he started this thread out of a sense of guilt for being supported wholly by AEG. I mean, look at all his posts, the guy doesn't have time to have a real job outside of browsing the B3D forums! Get the rope and pitchforks!

ben6

02-Dec-2005, 23:36

Yes.

At the very least, I don't want him seeing the PMs of me and Neeyik talking about how to stitch him up on April Fools, since he'll know what we're up to. And Pete's obsession with latex :!:

Best quote of the day, heh...

Geo

02-Dec-2005, 23:39

Can we imagine a rash of forums across the net adding a "no shilling" clause to their rules?

Jawed

Actually, that's not a bad idea at all. And a Sticky maybe.

Edit: And, then, of course, I woke up. Prolly more complicated than that. We generally *like it* when the "mysterious stranger" shows up with a tidbit. It's "our own" we're worried about here. What are we going to do, demand they "register" with Wavey in advance? Bye-bye, mysterious stranger.

Deathlike2

02-Dec-2005, 23:40

I think this whole "hidden campaign" can be destructively dangerous. Sure, people who prefer a certain vendor's hardware will obviously vouch and support that vendor. Since they already get some benefits in advance, I don't mind the kinds of info that would be reported from such people. However, it comes with a huge warning. The problem is that people can go to extremities (I'd see more flame threads starting) and certain PR-like talk that can be interpreted as a lot of spin control/smear campaigns. This is the kind of talk that does need to be filtered out (or people that can read through the PR) to get a "not totally biased opinion". I don't like people referencing PR too often when there's another side of the story. ("Half truths" like GF4 having good AF quality, but forgetting to mention the fact that it has poor performance.)

Those people involved need their own special forum though. I can see fewer problems when these are moderated in certain fan-based websites since I geniunely believe that they have moderators that are the least biased (in terms of viewing their vendor's hardware objectively, obviously not every fansite's moderators are non-biased). Neutral sites like Beyond3D will have sides and you would potentially seeing heavy flame wars unless there is a separate forum under heavy moderation. It's bad enough what you see bad info being spread, but it's worse when you can find it universally in every video hardware forum you encounter.

Just my two cents.

Geo

02-Dec-2005, 23:40

wireframe

02-Dec-2005, 23:55

Curses, foiled again. :cool:
I can't believe they snapped you up with a 6800GT. You should have asked for SLI at least. :razz:

Sxotty

03-Dec-2005, 00:16

BTW if this has not already been said.
I personally think it is highly, highly likely that ATI is doing the same thing. If they are not one might think that such information would have come out previously. Of course perhaps that is how Geo stumbled upon this fact (well you could answer that easy enough). If ATI say nothing about it then I will assume they are following the same technique.

It is funny if you simply go to google and type generate buzz nvidia it pops right up, it was never very secret apparently.

Anyway I look forward to one of the ATI people clarifying whether they are also using this technique. If any people associated with either company do read this please know it is not in your term best interest to become too tricky, sony is a good example of how things can backfire.

Geo

03-Dec-2005, 00:32

What am I trying to answer? I don't have any knowledge of ATI having such a program. I asked that same question at the top. If I did I would have said so. I think it would be a GREAT idea for them to make a statement about it tho. Or were you asking if ATI tipped me? They did not. I've never had a private conversation with anyone at ATI, ever. Not unwilling to (or NV for that matter), just never happened.

Deathlike2

03-Dec-2005, 00:33

I personally think it is highly, highly likely that ATI is doing the same thing. If they are not one might think that such information would have come out previously. Of course perhaps that is how Geo stumbled upon this fact (well you could answer that easy enough). If ATI say nothing about it then I will assume they are following the same technique.

I wouldn't be surprised, though I think NVidia want to do this more than ATI. From what I get from NVidia (especially during the FX era), they have been very much PR centered.

The only thing that currently exists that remotely resembles this is the CATALYST beta program. Although I don't know who have participated in it (though, I'm sure some Driverheaven/Rage3D mods/guys are in it), indirectly they are responsible for the "good PR" that has been labeled for the CATALYST drivers. Though, I doubt they post within the forums and make a big deal out of this.

If anyone has been paying attention to the latest ATI CATALYST driver releases, they have been releasing them early to a website in order to generate attention to the website. It is the smaller things that is what ATI has been doing to get this kind of "community".

Jawed

03-Dec-2005, 00:34

ATI's scheme is called Catalyst.

Jawed

Sharkfood

03-Dec-2005, 00:35

I personally think it is highly, highly likely that ATI is doing the same thing.
I think ATI has enough "loose guns" doing it already pro-bono.. LOL.

Not to mention a ton of their employees are involved in online communities and openly stipulate this status.

Deathlike2

03-Dec-2005, 00:50

I think ATI has enough "loose guns" doing it already pro-bono.. LOL.

Not to mention a ton of their employees are involved in online communities and openly stipulate this status.

Well, the employees that show up on this forum generate interesting discussion/feedback to understand more in depth on the technology.. it's not the same kind you would get on Rage3D/Driverheaven. It builds a better community that has a better understanding on how developers have dealt with implementing a feature. Beyond3D is a special community if you look at it this way.

wireframe

03-Dec-2005, 01:21

Well, the employees that show up on this forum generate interesting discussion/feedback to understand more in depth on the technology.. it's not the same kind you would get on Rage3D/Driverheaven. It builds a better community that has a better understanding on how developers have dealt with implementing a feature. Beyond3D is a special community if you look at it this way.
Right, but don't you also think this also tips the scales in ATI's favor? How often have you read these ATI employees defending an Nvidia technology or philosophy over their own? It's not exactly an open debate, but one that fosters respect for ATI and insisght into why their technologies work. I think this is exactly what AEG is about. This is grassroots. Not making stuff up or anything like that, but creating a good environment that also works in your favor. If it was not in ATI's favor to have people post in open bulletin boards, don't you think they would very quickly forbid the practice?

Again, I am not putting anyone down and that includes AEG until I feel I understand exactly what they are doing.

Farid

03-Dec-2005, 01:41

I only read the first post, it's 2:30 in the morning and I'm supposed to be at workd by 8 tomorrow (Yep, a sathurday) therefore if anything said in this post has already been posted. Just tell yourself that this post is a simple projection of your mind due to an excessive presence of sugar in your organism.

That thing AEG and other marketing groups do is simply called viral marketing.
But viral marketing is more than simply paying people to hype your products inside communities.

Simpy put, the mission of a viral marketing campaign is to try to influence your core market by creating a positive buzz around your products.

Welcome to the fantastic world of modern marketing.

Geo

03-Dec-2005, 01:48

Wireframe--

If "this is exactly what AEG is doing", then why does it require secrecy? Why are these folks apparently under NDA that forbids them from disclosing they are participants?

Geo

03-Dec-2005, 01:51

Btw, http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/member.php?u=6654

Hasn't been used since Sept 14 tho. Such a pity they don't use it right now and get that post count up to Junior Member. :wink:

Rys

03-Dec-2005, 01:53

If they're privvy to NDA'd information (like I would be, for example), that would be the perfect reason for an NDA stopping them from talking about what's going on.

Druga Runda

03-Dec-2005, 02:02

Right, but don't you also think this also tips the scales in ATI's favor? How often have you read these ATI employees defending an Nvidia technology or philosophy over their own? It's not exactly an open debate, but one that fosters respect for ATI and insisght into why their technologies work. I think this is exactly what AEG is about. This is grassroots. Not making stuff up or anything like that, but creating a good environment that also works in your favor. If it was not in ATI's favor to have people post in open bulletin boards, don't you think they would very quickly forbid the practice?

Again, I am not putting anyone down and that includes AEG until I feel I understand exactly what they are doing.
of course that tips the scale in ATI's favour, but it is open. That being the main and very important distinction... of course we have no idea whether ATI participates in a similar marketing scheme with another company/whatever... however what I personally would want out of this "revalation" is that they are more open about it, but than again this would go against the whole concept if it is true viral marketing (and seeng some things it looks to me personally that it is that :| )

So whatever... the whole idea for this thread today is >being open< with the community. The sole reason for covert work is to effectively remove the "openess" factor and play on certain opinions with peoples defenses being down essentially abusing the trust that exists between honest members of such communities. That is disturbing and frankly sad that marketing techniques are stepping so low.

So there is a world of difference between this approach and Nvidia employee openly engaging the public in the forums for ideas/suggestions/discussions about their products. We would all be happy for them to do so, but taking out an agency and paying $$$ to essentially "The slow and steady process of 'magnifying the mania' with these loyal fans is what Arbuthnot is all about" as the MSFT representative nicely put, in whatever best way they find acceptable. At least this gives a reasonable explanation as to what creates sites as Nvnews (in worse cases - I guess when the owners scucumb to the pressure), and in other cases just abuses the good spirit a community has built with a lot of effort on the owners/participants parts. In a way they pay money to abuse our trust to make money - not illegal but surely disgusting.

The relation in real life would be if a company paid a person to become your friend, to gain your trust and than abuse it and make you spend money on inferior products because of trusting them. Of course in real life that is waaay too expensive, (and one would have thought it might be too expensive on-line as well) but I guess that we create enough value, or real $$$, while at the same time being cheap to exploit, that it actually works pretty well for those companies to pay for the abuse of trust built in the on-line communities in such ways. :|

just to add this at the end

The result? We turn customers into evangelists: the most valuable component of any marketing campaign.

Geo

03-Dec-2005, 02:09

If they're privvy to NDA'd information (like I would be, for example), that would be the perfect reason for an NDA stopping them from talking about what's going on.

Well, I've tried to be careful in how I've talked about this, tho maybe I've slipped once or twice. Looking at my last I got it right tho. I'm not saying there shouldn't be NDA at all --I'm saying it shouldn't foreclose them from admitting they are participants, and talking about it at a really high level (made standard verbiage for that about what it is they do). Possibly it is too much to expect AEG/NV to demand they disclose publicly, but there are several "plankholders" here, and I would be satisfied with AEG/NV's part of it if they modified the NDA to allow them to disclose they are participants and generally what it is they do. After all, ATI guys here haven't been telling us R580 secrets on the board either.

Rys

03-Dec-2005, 02:12

Yes, I'd be happy with a modified NDA, too. That'd freaking rock. But knowing as I do NVIDIA Legal, shall we go make snowballs down at Beelzebub's place while it's chilly :?:

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Geo

03-Dec-2005, 02:15

I can only control how reasonable I am, not how reasonable they are. :wink:

I'll bring the snow tho! Lots here!

Rys

03-Dec-2005, 02:21

I can only control how reasonable I am, not how reasonable they are. :wink:

I'll bring the snow tho! Lots here!
Well, if this thread makes their NDAs suck less, I'm all for it. Fingers crossed.

And you imply there's grounds for being unreasonable......care to share on that one or am I reading too much into what you're saying, as I feel a whole bunch of folks in this thread are to various things?

I'll fetch my hat and gloves, you bring the carrots and I'll bring the coal.

Druga Runda

03-Dec-2005, 02:21

Well to add another question to the thread.

Are those people very knowledgable about the product they are promoting?

They are after all outsourced marketing men, supporting different companies, they surely are not engineers or programmers (as in that case they would surely do something else in their life - I highly doubt that this pays soo much)

That leaves me with the question of what kind of information they are distributing - a valuble one, or marketing material?

Do they really want you to know? Perhaps they would lose their jobs as you would dismiss them straight away after they post something knowing who they are, thus the marketing material would not get a lot of "mind share", not nearly as much as if it was presented as "genuine user experience".

Pete

03-Dec-2005, 02:23

At the very least, I don't want him seeing the PMs of me and Neeyik talking about how to stitch him up on April Fools, since he'll know what we're up to. And Pete's obsession with latex :!:I, uh, ... LOOK, A BEAR!

/me runs

Seriously, Rys jokes that go over my head aside, this thread is yielding some interesting points.

Firstly, Rys' idea that AEG may be seeding (relatively) knowledgable forum members seeking a podium, which is quite possible. After all, as quite a few people are fond of saying, if you don't own the hardware you can't comment--but if you do, then you can fire away. I suppose this is one way of empowering a voice you might like to have on your side ("evangelist").

OTOH, again, I'm not sure how this would work without a compelling product, as, like I've implied and others have said, it's probably harder to sucker a B3Der simply b/c of the generally greater 3D knowledge here (yay, elitism :razz:).

Secondly, the idea that repackaging marketing or developer material to a potential "focus group" (from what I've read from their website, I'm inclined to believe that AEG's purpose is anything but creating an insular focus group) member might be helpful seems a bit odd. After all, isn't that what most of us rely on actual reviewers to slog through, and don't we usually see this material eventually posted for all to see (techpowerup, etc.)? I'm not sure what's gained here by an "knowledgable," potentially "influential" member. But it's a very interesting and perhaps not very large jump from forum member to reviewer. Could Dave, for instance, be considered a member of this program, witting or unwitting, simply b/c he has better connections than most of us? Could the fact that he appeared (and still does, I guess) to have better conxns with ATI mean he evangelizes for them on some level? Is this just b/c he knows more about their hardware, and so speaks more about it, both in articles and (various) forums?

OTOH, going with my (apparently not unique) opinion that B3D forum members can't be snookered as easily as others, does this even matter at B3D? Meaning, aren't we likely to just filter out any (un)concious favoratism, leaving just the kernel of Truth? Here's where I step into the tinfoil realm. Is Dave, by virtue of his apparently greater knowledge and conxns than most, a potential opinion-maker to not only his forum members but also other reviewers (and thus their forums)? I'm thinking New York Times here. I'm also thinking I'm over-thinking things. I mean, this is getting into territory that wireframe speculated (http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showpost.php?p=641385&postcount=145) on (in his mahogany-lined study thick with intrigue and pipe smoke): is "exposing" AEG a counter-AEG operation by a competitor, and using another "respected" community member? Remind me not to line up two mirrors opposite each other again.

The third, and perhaps most obvious and least offensive, conclusion is that AEG is simply trying to get Joe Forum Member to say nice things about its client by pampering and flattering them (see schwag and trips to Ibiza ;)). I mean obvious in both intent and in discovery, but, again, I may just be flattering myself in thinking I'd spot a "phony."

OTOH, the essential part of this last point, and what makes it different from point the second, is that it occurs under NDA and without other people knowing that Joe Forum Member is receiving goodies and perhaps prompted or simply inclined to reciprocate by saying nice things. We know reviewers get free kit and sometimes free trips b/c they say so, be it by blog or by forum post. There's a level of openness there that's different from what many of us currently assume to be AEG's methods.

I'm going to borrow/steal/ripmixburn from wireframe again:
Again, I am not putting anyone down and that includes AEG until I feel I understand exactly what they are doing.ATM, this is me thinking out loud, not presenting a final opinion. I'm trying to get a handle on this rather uninteresting (come for the 3D, stay for the political machinations!) subject. Heck, I'm surprised I'm adding to my post count with this thread--feels like it belongs in Religion and Politics.

Eh, I'm probably overanalyzing this. The bottom line appears to be that AEG "turn[s] customers into evangelists: the most valuable component of any marketing campaign." We all have our suspicions of who fall into that category. All this does is slot them over from ****** to corporate shill. I'm not sure how free stuff makes it worse, except in perhaps locking in a temporary postition (NV > ATI during GF4 era, ATI > NV during 9700 era, etc.).

Vysez, most of the posts after the first page or two are usually points being repeated. Welcome to the echo chamber that is an internet forum. :)

Tim Murray

03-Dec-2005, 02:37

I presume Dave has direct access to the content of everyone's PMs. A swift database search should pull up everyone who was contacted by PM.

Naturally that doesn't identify people who come here from other forums. There's been an awful lot of them this year, dare I say it...

Jawed
Speaking as someone who's done it, you don't want to read anyone else's PMs. Period. End of story. It's never pretty.

OTOH, going with my (apparently not unique) opinion that B3D forum members can't be snookered as easily as others, does this even matter at B3D? Meaning, aren't we likely to just filter out any (un)concious favoratism, leaving just the kernel of Truth?
I don't know that there is any level of complete truth in there to begin with beyond what is immediately evident. Card X performs at speed A in game Q, card Y performs at speed B. Once you get into the IQ debates, the filtering debates, the architectural debates, they're all opinion, and considering that a lot of seriously questionable things like these (which eventually explode) show up first on forums (case in point (http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5525)), having respected people who are considered to be knowledgeable plus automatically more inclined to be favorable to your point of view is going to be a huge advantage.

Mindless speculation: I'd guess that this was probably started by NVIDIA after the initial round of NV40 reviews--maybe July or so of 2004. Start seeding the masses, get more people to play up the feature advantages, and sell more cards.

Jawed

03-Dec-2005, 02:38

Being serious, for a moment here, ATI does actually make an effort to recruit committed members of the community as part of its Catalyst beta tester program.

Some of them clearly label themselves as such when they post.

But I dunno how many are out there. It's never really bothered me, to be honest.

These beta testers are plainly under NDA...

etc.

Jawed

Geo

03-Dec-2005, 02:44

Well, if this thread makes their NDAs suck less, I'm all for it. Fingers crossed.

And you imply there's grounds for being unreasonable......care to share on that one or am I reading too much into what you're saying, as I feel a whole bunch of folks in this thread are to various things?

Well, warden, those are my minimum demands or the turn-key gets it.

A little more flights of fancy? Talk about the program publicly on their website, what its goals, aims, and scope are. Have a manager people can contact in a public way. Take applications. Require folks who are members to disclose that fact on their travels, provide help to forum goes, promise to take folks issues back to the group and try to get them addressed, etc.

Y'know, act very much like their community outreach program is a . . .yes, that's right. . .community outreach program.

Rys

03-Dec-2005, 02:45

The third, and perhaps most obvious and least offensive, conclusion is that AEG is simply trying to get Joe Forum Member to say nice things about its client by pampering and flattering them (see schwag and trips to Ibiza ;)). I mean obvious in both intent and in discovery, but, again, I may just be flattering myself in thinking I'd spot a "phony."

OTOH, the essential part of this last point, and what makes it different from point the second, is that it occurs under NDA and without other people knowing that Joe Forum Member is receiving goodies and perhaps prompted or simply inclined to reciprocate by saying nice things. We know reviewers get free kit and sometimes free trips b/c they say so, be it by blog or by forum post.
I knew SOMEONE read it, I just could never trace the single IP that did! :lol:

'Free' is a really bad word with regards to kit and trips, for a reviewer. "Nothing in life is free", totally applies. Kit = work, trips = work. I wish they gave me the hardware so I could play games all day and write sweet FA at the end of it. Oh, NDA expired and you wanted me to write something? Sorry, too busy playing games on the hardware!

I wish I could get on the flights and sun for the duration before flying home. Sorry, SirEric, too busy working on my tan to give you the time of day! Free does not apply, sadly. I've worked my overweight ass off for those things to even be possible. My job is utter ass at times, you should come try it out for a while and see how right I am :wink:

Back on topic, I do feel that engaging the smarter people is a good thing to do, even under NDA. I have no real problem with clever, alert people talking about hardware, assisted by boards and info, on online forums. It's just what I do, but without a domain name. What's wrong with that?

But there in lie the caveats. Engage an idiot or ****** and you put the barrel up your ass and pull the trigger. Of course I'd love that they're open with it, too, so that we can call bullshit as a group when needed. You guys called a form of bullshit with me in the beginning, and that's why I'm here. Keeping me honest, and everyone else (even Dave :twisted: ) is good, so out in the open please, NV and AEG. Bet the participants would love to say they're involved, because I also bet that they fit the persona I outlined above, too, and they've got nothing to hide, and are simply trapped by autographing the shit put in front of them at the beginning.

Jawed

03-Dec-2005, 03:04

My final point before hitting bed (I've actually been working on photos, honest):

B3D could well be considered something of a "prize" for NVidia - in the sense that a concensus that exists here is significantly more valuable than one that exists on forums.fanboisRys.com. There's a growing swathe of lurkers, not all of whom are in the Console forums.

And as alluded to by Pete, I think "sensible" people are the cornerstone rather than fanbois, which is why, I guess, they contacted Pete. Who else round here is that sensible?

:lol:

Oh, and where's Hellbinder? :shock:

Jawed

Dave Baumann

03-Dec-2005, 03:06

A couple of things to note wrt press, along with the what Rys has already mentioned (i.e. this is "work"; even when its supposed to be something "fun" as well, its still bloody hard work) is that press put themselves out there to everyone, they all have ample opportunity to contact / brief / connect with us, and we all try and distribute our time to them where we can. Sometimes, though, the PR may bend themselve more to suite the types of people they want to make contact with - case in point is ATI's Ibiza briefing, it was held over a weekend because of the fact that they know the "working" press will go there, or find a way to be up to date, but they also know that they will be able to cover far more guys like me (and there's still a number around) because we're not going to have to take days off work to cover it; that type of thing happens quite often dependant on the PR.

The other point being that you all know this; this is part and parcel of being press and we don't often hide it.

Rys

03-Dec-2005, 03:26

B3D could well be considered something of a "prize" for NVidia - in the sense that a concensus that exists here is significantly more valuable than one that exists on forums.fanboisRys.com.
Aww come on dude, you didn't have to be sneaky about it :lol:

Jawed

03-Dec-2005, 03:28

Bugger! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Jawed

Sxotty

03-Dec-2005, 03:56

Require folks who are members to disclose that fact on their travels, provide help to forum goes, promise to take folks issues back to the group and try to get them addressed, etc.

You know what this is all I would require to not feel as though this is slimy. If ATI does not do something similar, than as was noted Catalyst crew or whatever they are called really do fufill the same niche, they evangelize, they feel privlidged, and in many cases it is in their signature, so it is not hidden.

Seriously, I would not hold it against a person, after all we all would like free graphics cards when they cost $650.00 a pop nowadays, but it has to be open. Open bribery is the just lobbying after all :p Darn pete was right after all...

Himself

03-Dec-2005, 04:04

Deathlike2

03-Dec-2005, 04:16

You know what this is all I would require to not feel as though this is slimy. If ATI does not do something similar, than as was noted Catalyst crew or whatever they are called really do fufill the same niche, they evangelize, they feel privlidged, and in many cases it is in their signature, so it is not hidden.

I really don't know what they get out of it (in terms of getting stuff), besides helping the average ATI user have a better experience. Of course they do get privy to "new and upcoming features" that needs testing so we don't have to suffer as much... Though, people with free time always have wanted to contribute in some small way...

Sxotty

03-Dec-2005, 04:51

I really don't know what they get out of it (in terms of getting stuff), besides helping the average ATI user have a better experience. Of course they do get privy to "new and upcoming features" that needs testing so we don't have to suffer as much... Though, people with free time always have wanted to contribute in some small way...

Feeling like you are part of an exclussive "club" is enough for many people really. In other words, I personally think that for many people such intangible benefits are equally as important as a knick knack. To be clear I am not saying that they are bad, but that they are motivated to help on group as you said ATI users, not video card users. I would say that to some extent people like Dave do what they do to help video card users, of course without his enthusiam for the subject the time would be impossible to justify, but he helps out everyone sort of.

As was already said there are plenty of evangelists around already, so it is obvious you don't have to pay to much :)

Martin Eddy

03-Dec-2005, 05:41

When I first started reading this thread, I was quite upset that this sort of thing might be going on, but then I realised that this sort of thing happens everywhere.

At my work every month a different manufacturer will pay each salesman upto 3% of the saleprice of a product to flog their gear. So if I sell $10,000 of (insert manufacturer here) i get $300 cash. I'm sure it happens in a lot of different industries other than mine.

How would you feel if you walked in to my shop and I sold you Brand A, and then you found out that I was basically bribed to sell that, even though Brand B would have been better for your needs.

....probably not making much sense here......

My point being is, I can't see anybody involved with this PR/Viral Marketing coming clean, because the whole point of what they are doing is to appear to be Joe Forummember without people going ...."Don't listen to him because he's been paid off".

Just my 2 cents.

P.S. I would love to know who, if anybody on this board is involved. I just can't see them coming clean.

MasterBaiter

03-Dec-2005, 08:52

Did I mention that I REALLY like Nvidia's stuff? :lol:

Most forums need to be taken with a pinch of salt anyways, so I don't think it's really anything to sweat The idea of forum seeding seems pretty tactless to me though, but I guess I shouldn't be too surprised at what these companies will try @ this point. I don't think the customer base would take too kindly to this bit of manipulation if that is what is occuring.

dizietsma

03-Dec-2005, 10:58

I followed DigitalWanderer's link to Elitebastards to hear what Hanners had to say but a website called www.kanoodle.com tried to put a cookie on my machine without asking. According to Kanoodle themselves

"BrightAds Cookies
If you don't want to run our listings, but still want to get paid for creating a great site, BrightAds cookies is for you. Add our code to your page, and we'll drop cookies, so when a user visits another site in the Kanoodle network, we can show them ads that will appeal to them. Our advertisers pay us for clicks and we in turn pay you a share."

I feel oh so used and abused . I didn't even get anything out of it apart from the opportunity to spring a previously set trap to make me open my wallet again in the future.

Can you see my point ? No point getting too upset with AEG and nvidia because EVERYBODY's at it one way or another ie trying to get us to spend money.

leoneazzurro

03-Dec-2005, 11:00

Sincerely, I think this is not a good thing. Sponsoring fan events (such as Quakecon and similar) it's fine, but spreading misinformation and biased comments is of course not. In several forums I was involved I saw a lot of people being too much irrational in their comments, favoring everytime a certain vendor and being everytime against the competitor (and, let me say this, not everytime the irrational behaviour was pro-NV, so my personal opinion is that neither ATI is immune from this kind of "shadow" marketing), resulting only in lot of flames and lowering the technical level of the discussion to zero.
What I mean is that these behaviours are probably very usefuy to the PR and marketing crap people, etc, but for the community it's a loss when the informations are not clear and the crap above overwhelmes technical and objective parameters.
It's like to having biased reviews on the web, if you pay a reviewer to make you product appear better it's about the same that paying some else to "spread the word", but what's makes it even worse is that maybe many users know that biased sites exist, but hearing good comments by a "fellow user" (hey! He's one of us! We can trust him ;) ) can be even more misleading than a biased review.
My 2 cents (and please forgive me for the not-so-good English).

Kombatant

03-Dec-2005, 13:43

Viral marketing is here, unfortunately, whether we like it or not (I don't). This is not a case of just gfx cards, it happens everywhere (for football fans, a recent video showing Ronaldinho trying out his new Nike shoes and then doing magic stuff with the ball made quite a buzz). What bothers me most is the fact that people who pose themselves as normal users, are trying to manipulate other people for personal gain. I wouldn't care if a normal user, who blindly believes that a certain brand is above all other, tried to evangelise what he believes. I do mind, when he does it to gain something (whether it's a gfx card, "exclusive info", or anything else) - in my eyes it's not ethical.

I suspect (and I have no evidence to back this up, just call it a hunch) that this form of marketing will grow even further in the months/years to come, and that it's already happening in a pretty large scale. Sometimes we see right through it, but sometimes we don't.

Sxotty

03-Dec-2005, 14:12

BTW, I hate to drag anything else up, but I feel pretty confident that if the "hard launch" continues we will be sure to have people leaking information at opportune times to ruins the other guys party. In other words all the praise for a hard launch (which I never really cared about anyway) is kind of silly.

My opinion on Hard launches is that they are meaningless, the meaningful thing is availability after launch IMHO, and don't think that this is a stab at any company in particular, it isn't.

This just seems like a have you cake and eat it too sort of situation. Receive glowing praise for you "hard launch" while secretly dissemenating information, so that you basically launched early anyway :p

Geo

03-Dec-2005, 14:22

BTW, I hate to drag anything else up, but I feel pretty confident that if the "hard launch" continues we will be sure to have people leaking information at opportune times to ruins the other guys party. In other words all the praise for a hard launch (which I never really cared about anyway) is kind of silly.

My opinion on Hard launches is that they are meaningless, the meaningful thing is availability after launch IMHO, and don't think that this is a stab at any company in particular, it isn't.

I had reason last night to look at some old NV insider stuff elsewhere. FX-era stuff. Started giggling when I hit pieces talking about how their internal policy then was 10,000 units at launch. . . so maybe if it took NV two years to go from having the policy to the more-or-less reality of "hard launch", maybe there is still hope for ATI getting better at it anyway.

Kombatant

03-Dec-2005, 14:46

I had reason last night to look at some old NV insider stuff elsewhere. FX-era stuff. Started giggling when I hit pieces talking about how their internal policy then was 10,000 units at launch. . . so maybe if it took NV two years to go from having the policy to the more-or-less reality of "hard launch", maybe there is still hope for ATI getting better at it anyway.
Likewise, back then ATI's policy was sufficient products on shelves 30 days after launch... those were the days :D

Deathlike2

03-Dec-2005, 18:50

I had reason last night to look at some old NV insider stuff elsewhere. FX-era stuff. Started giggling when I hit pieces talking about how their internal policy then was 10,000 units at launch. . . so maybe if it took NV two years to go from having the policy to the more-or-less reality of "hard launch", maybe there is still hope for ATI getting better at it anyway.

I think the "DX9 would increase FX performance" rumor was a bigger sham than anything else.. who's stupid idea was this... the Inq's? :wink: :razz:

Jawed

03-Dec-2005, 19:04

The Geforce 5900 absolutely loves SM2 in AoE3:

http://graphics.tomshardware.com/graphic/20051202/vga_charts_viii-05.html

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

Jawed

Pete

03-Dec-2005, 19:59

Consider me :shock:ed as well. Can someone (Dave, Rev) ask the devs for an explanation? Is it textures a-go-go in AoE3? Maybe RoOobo can run a frame analysis? This warrants a new thread over in 3D Tech.

Arun

03-Dec-2005, 20:06

I had reason last night to look at some old NV insider stuff elsewhere. FX-era stuff. Started giggling when I hit pieces talking about how their internal policy then was 10,000 units at launch. . .Ah yes, I remember that. Heck, I published that information, and it came from someone I'd rather trust to say the least ;) (ofc, he doesn't work at NVIDIA anymore, nowadays). I think you're missing on part of the context though - IIRC, it was 10000 chips at launch, not 10000 boards (but then again, its first "usage" was for a notebook chip, so it's a bit hard to say).

Uttar

Geo

03-Dec-2005, 20:14

Ah yes, I remember that. Heck, I published that information, and it came from someone I'd rather trust to say the least ;) (ofc, he doesn't work at NVIDIA anymore, nowadays). I think you're missing on part of the context though - IIRC, it was 10000 chips at launch, not 10000 boards (but then again, its first "usage" was for a notebook chip, so it's a bit hard to say).

Uttar

What do you think I was reading last night? :lol: As it was ENTIRELY unrelated to this thread, I thot it much better to not drag your name into it! :wink:

BRiT

03-Dec-2005, 20:42

The Geforce 5900 absolutely loves SM2 in AoE3:

http://graphics.tomshardware.com/graphic/20051202/vga_charts_viii-05.html

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

Jawed

Shame to see that in typical TH fashion, they did not use the 'fix' for F.E.A.R. on the X1000 series of cards.

Arun

03-Dec-2005, 21:28

What do you think I was reading last night? :lol: As it was ENTIRELY unrelated to this thread, I thot it much better to not drag your name into it! :wink:Oh, in the interest of full disclosure, I've had 100 of NVIDIA's stock since before the NV30 launch all through the GPU:RW days, and still have it today. Between then and now, the benefit would be enough for a SLI 7800GTX 512MB I guess, but in that amount of years, I'd class it as a rather subpar investment *shrugs*
Heck, if anything, it gave me a good justification to be as objective as possible in the NV35 timeframe: I was at the same time angry that the stock got so much lower, and wanted it to increase, so I didn't really care much either way ;) Not that it mattered that much anyway, I tend not to take that too seriously.

Uttar

Sxotty

03-Dec-2005, 22:05

Shame to see that in typical TH fashion, they did not use the 'fix' for F.E.A.R. on the X1000 series of cards.
I don't want to get into this too much, but I thought some people had said they were swinging the other way now. Anyway I don't usually check it out for info about 3d, just tech gadgets.

Geo

04-Dec-2005, 00:00

Oh, in the interest of full disclosure . .

Interesting point there. But, y'know, the reason I started this thread was to see if we could bring some pressure to bear on NV/AEG to explain and hopefully modify their policy on an organized program involving who-knows-how-many folks. I'd readily concede there are other, individual factors (like stock ownership, for instance) that this member or that might not talk about and some would find interesting and wonder if it was coloring their comments. We can hardly hold either IHV responsible for those folks.

But with all respect (and I mean that genuinely), everybody knows you're a green guy to your toes --just one who is willing to smack 'em upside the head in loving detail when they disappoint.

Kombatant

04-Dec-2005, 00:04

Interesting point there. But, y'know, the reason I started this thread was to see if we could bring some pressure to bear on NV/AEG to explain and hopefully modify their policy on an organized program involving who-knows-how-many folks. I'd readily concede there are other, individual factors (like stock ownership, for instance) that this member or that might not talk about and some would find interesting and wonder if it was coloring their comments. We can hardly hold either IHV responsible for those folks.

But with all respect (and I mean that genuinely), everybody knows you're a green guy to your toes --just one who is willing to smack 'em upside the head in loving detail when they disappoint.
Sadly, I don't think anyone's going to admit such a relationship geo.

Geo

04-Dec-2005, 00:19

Sadly, I don't think anyone's going to admit such a relationship geo.

Sadly, I think they are legally enjoined from doing so, Komb. That's the point.

Kombatant

04-Dec-2005, 00:51

Sadly, I think they are legally enjoined from doing so, Komb. That's the point. Makes sense. As far as I am concerned though (and as I said before, I merely want to reinforce that statement), this is not ethical. Dealing with a ****** who loves a product for one reason or another and feels oblidged to evangelise it is one thing. Dealing with someone who does that for his own profit, sometimes deliberately misleading or trying to manipulate persons, views or situations, it's a whole different ballgame.

WaltC

04-Dec-2005, 14:36

...

In all honesty, I wish NV would do as ATI does and let their employees get on message boards and be advocates for the company, and have that relationship very clear. Guys like Dio, OpenGLGuy, CatalystMaker, SirEric, and others are all well respected, and what they say has weight and merit. They have also established themselves on these boards through their honesty and integrity, all the while being a positive example of an ATI employee. They also have their own opinions and sometimes these do not match what ATI PR has to say. It would be great to see NVIDIA follow such an example, as I would love to hear what some of these NV guys would have to say in an open setting such as a messageboard.

[Thunderous Applause] Good point! It's one I've made often for years.

Some rather obvious observations can be made from this status quo. Apparently, internal conditions for nV employees are such that either they are expressly forbidden from identifying their employer in forums such as this one along with providing their own candid assessments and opinions about their company's products, or else the process for doing so is so burdensome for them that they simply don't have the time or inclination (ie, they'd have to run every post by internal nV PR employees before they post it and accept edits and redactions to their comments, etc.) As you point out, it seems equally obvious that ATi employees are much less confined in this regard.

So, if nV is so strict with its own employees in this regard, how much more strict might the company be with a paid-for PR group in terms of what is "acceptable" PR speech? It goes without saying, of course, that nVidia isn't paying a third-party PR company for negative connotation. They are paying for a "positive buzz" and whether or not the buzz is in all respects factual, complete, or meaningful is entirely irrelevant. When companies pay for PR they do not pay for objectivity, they pay for promotion. Period.

ATi, nor nV, nor 3dfx, nor any other company, has ever directly or indirectly compensated me in any form for whatever opinions I state either publicly or privately. My opinions are, thankfully, entirely my own. That said, I wonder if the opinions of some of those who often rabidly disagree with me in this forum, seemingly on "general principle" most of the time, are as honestly derived. Existence of the type of marketing activity proven in this thread confirms, objectively, a suspicion I've had for a long time: nV is shelling out the bucks to generate a "positive buzz" in forums like this, and whether that buzz is deserved is absolutely of no consequence whatever. IE, what counts in strategies like these is perception as opposed to empirical fact. While that is true of all marketing in general, in forums like this one at B3d the surreptitious infiltration of people working for such a PR program does nothing but corrupt the very purpose of the forum itself--that purpose being to create an atmosphere of objective discussion and debate on 3d products of all types.

In the end people have to decide what is more important to them: objective reality, or merely a certain perception of reality. My vote goes to a preference for reality. Unfortunately for some I can see that they prefer a PR-generated perception, which is basically where we part company in terms of opinion.

I've long advocated that sites which claim to be neutral technology sites, unmoved by the commercial machinations of PR departments, voluntarily disclose all monies and goods provided them by corporations at any time for any purpose, including ad revenue. This could be done without comment on a single site page devoted to that end and merely updated when necessary. In this way those of us interested in objective reality would know which sites to take with a grain of salt and which ones we could likely believe.

I dropped this gauntlet years ago, and you know what? So far, there are no takers. I wonder why.

Geo

04-Dec-2005, 14:51

WaltC

04-Dec-2005, 15:07

Well, Walt, I'm sure its a comfort to some to hear you aren't a paid representative. Thanks for being explicit. But I rather think most of us don't need any remuneration for thinking and pointing out you have a special hatred for NV, and saying so. I can't think of anyone across the entire 'net who has put the boots to NV with such intensity and joi de vivre over such a long period.

I'd really, REALLY hate to see a continuation of that kind of thinking tho "Hmm, X disagrees with me. . .must be an AEG type!".

Geo, I'm absolutely certain that most people here are not paid shills for anyone...;) It's just that I only feel entitled to speak for myself, so I suppose that's why I didn't presume to speak for anyone else on the subject.

Also, note that I said some of the people who categorically disagree with me--especially the few who disagree with me no matter what I say, may be either directly or indirectly influenced by this kind of PR program.

In fact, since the info disclosed in this thread categorically proves the existence of a PR program specifically aimed at influencing Internet forum commentary, among other things, it would illogical to conclude that no one participating was advancing a paid-for PR opinion instead of his own, wouldn't it? I mean if that were true then it would be conclusive evidence that the money nVidia is paying this company to influence Internet forum opinion was wasted and going for naught, right? As the B3d forums are among the most influential on the Internet in terms of 3d discussion, opinion, and debate, it would, I think, be illogical to conclude that these forums were not a target of this PR company. Of course, as always, if you disagree with the logic I've used I'm open to discussion...;)

Geo

04-Dec-2005, 15:25

Of such logic did the Birchers work their way to "Hmm, Dwight Eisenhower is a communist! It all fits now!". :lol:

If you ask me to agree that this program in legally foreclosing acknowledging participation is destructive of community trust, then of course I have to agree. It's why this thread is here.

But when you start landing it in public in "folks who disagree with ME", as you've done above, I start to smell the fire of the witch-hunt, and we as a community should smack the wrist of anyone who has that match in their hand. Why does it? Because everyone here who is a regular, who knows you and your usual sparring partners, now has a short list in their mind that you just sideways suggested to them.

Let's just not. Of course people will speculate in their own minds, and be more cautious/wondering. They should. Doing it in public, amplifying and reamplifying the distrust without any real facts as to indivduals, is just counter-productive and unfair.

Rys

04-Dec-2005, 15:31

Well I'm glad I'm not on Walt's list!

WaltC

04-Dec-2005, 15:57

Of such logic did the Birchers work their way to "Hmm, Dwight Eisenhower is a communist! It all fits now!". :lol:

Ah, yes...the same kind of logic that drives people to conclude that I "hate" nVidia, when it has always been their PR tactics that I've hated...?

If you ask me to agree that this program in legally foreclosing acknowledging participation is destructive of community trust, then of course I have to agree. It's why this thread is here.

Yes.

But when you start landing it in public in "folks who disagree with ME", as you've done above, I start to smell the fire of the witch-hunt, and we as a community should smack the wrist of anyone who has that match in their hand. Why does it? Because everyone here who is a regular, who knows you and your usual sparring partners, now has a short list in their mind that you just sideways suggested to them.

Funny that I should feel the target of a "witch hunt" when reading these kinds of comments, isn't it? I pointed out in my last post that I only feel entitled to speak for myself and no one else. Now, if you object to my use of the word "me" in the context I used, then what substitute word might you prefer? What is it you think I should have said, exactly, when expressing my opinion? I'd really like you to elaborate, if you think it's possible...;)

Let's just not. Of course people will speculate in their own minds, and be more cautious/wondering. They should. Doing it in public, amplifying and reamplifying the distrust without any real facts as to indivduals, is just counter-productive and unfair.

"Let's just not," what? "Let's just not" allow WaltC the dignity of expressing his own opinions...? Or, "let's just not" pay attention to anything WaltC says because "we all know" how much he "hates" nVidia...? Or, "lets just not" remember that WaltC did not start this thread and is wholly blameless as to its content...? "Let's just not"...like that?

You see, unlike you, Geo, I see cause and effect, while you advance only the contradiction that just because a company is paying another company to influence Internet forum commentary, which is objectionable, there's no reason to conclude the strategy is succeeding in concrete terms. Can't and won't apologize for disagreeing, sorry. Your position strikes me as very illogical for the reasons I've stated.

Furthermore, unlike you, I went out of my way to keep the discussion abstract whereas you have made it personal. Truly, from my perspective, it appears that the more elaborately I explain myself, the more interested you become in substituting your own opinions for the ones I have stated. What "individuals" that you mention in the above quote have I mentioned? Wow, can't think of a single one...;) But that didn't stop you from mentioning me individually, did it?

Heh...;) Now, see what you've gone and done? Even Rys thinks I have a "list" when that concept is entirely your own invention, isn't it?

Sxotty

04-Dec-2005, 16:37

Don't worry Walt I never even would have dreamed ATI would have endorsed you to speak for them :) Perhaps AEG could pay you to speak though as it might actually help nvidia to have such angst directed against them that it makes people feel it must be unjustified. :razz: of course you already stated that was not the case.

I think it is ok for you to express your opinions, but I think it is weak to suggest after your comment that you do not have individuals in mind, when you implied you did earlier. If you are going to try and be forthright in your opinions do so, I will respect it, but don't start waffling now.

To hate PR is only natural I would say, whether now or on a previous day.

Jawed

04-Dec-2005, 16:43

Bob seems to have outed himself as an NVidia employee:

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showpost.php?p=639288&postcount=68

Jawed

WaltC

04-Dec-2005, 16:51

I think it is ok for you to express your opinions, but I think it is weak to suggest after your comment that you do not have individuals in mind, when you implied you did earlier. If you are going to try and be forthright in your opinions do so, I will respect it, but don't start waffling now.

Well, regardless of what it may be surmised that I suggested, the fact is that I did not mention anyone individually. You know, it amazes me the nerves I've apparently hit without mentioning as much as one, single, individual by name or handle. Sometimes, an unintentionally well-placed comment has the effect of provoking undreamed-of responses, I can see...;)

Honestly, I sincerely didn't think the topic of this thread was me, did you? I rather thought the topic had to do with a 3d IHV hiring a PR firm to influence Internet forum commentary about its products through the use of undisclosed tactics and procedures. I will stand by that interpretation of the thread, present company permitting...:D

WaltC

04-Dec-2005, 17:29

Bob seems to have outed himself as an NVidia employee:

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showpost.php?p=639288&postcount=68

Jawed

I kind of maybe agree with your conclusion. But to me revealing one's employer is saying:

"BTW, I work for nVidia."

For the sake of argument, the following comment:

Obviously not. I'm not going to go out of my way to get real numbers, and even if I did, I couldn't reveal them to you anyway.

...could well mean he is proscribed from revealing this info by his employer. However, it might also mean he can't supply the "real numbers" because he doesn't know what they are...:D

(Sometimes, just being direct and to the point has certain benefits, doesn't it?)

;)

JoshMST

04-Dec-2005, 17:57

Actually Walt, the reason I am on the witch hunt for you is because I heard you bathe once a week (whether you need it or not) and you helped Uwe Boll obtain the rights to make Far Cry into a full length feature film. I also heard inuendo that you were one of the primary writers behind the Dungeon Siege movie and you had a big hand in casting Burt Reynolds as the king.

While I can handle the bathing part... the other things are just unforgivable. Get the rope.

Geo

04-Dec-2005, 17:59

That said, I wonder if the opinions of some of those who often rabidly disagree with me in this forum, seemingly on "general principle" most of the time, are as honestly derived.

Right there, Walt. That's what I'm talking about on "let's not" in public. Anyone who knows these forums and you and your usual sparring partners had three or four names pop into their head right there. I hate even repeating it, but since you've insisted I do, there ya go.

Edit: Btw, what was "abstract" about that sentence? By making it about "me" and others relation to you, I had to go there as well. You'd not have heard a peep from me if that sentence had not been in the original.

Geo

04-Dec-2005, 18:11

Bob seems to have outed himself as an NVidia employee:

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showpost.php?p=639288&postcount=68

Jawed

Bob is also very technical, as that post shows. I'd hate to lose that kind of person here. In my mind, the Bob's of the world (if indeed he is an NV employee) aren't the problem.

04-Dec-2005, 18:58

AEG employees:

I will be gladly willing to post this:

"I think that my 7800 512mb GTX SLI set up*is the best thing 3V3R!!! ATI SuX0rs!"

On all the foums that I am a member of after you supply me with such a set up. Thanks.

/me waits for AEG to contact him to get the above mention setup

:) :)

What it was worth a shot right??? :)

Joking aside I was not supprise when GEO posted this as I have heard simular things done but other folks in other areas of industry :(

Farid

04-Dec-2005, 19:20

As far as I am concerned though (and as I said before, I merely want to reinforce that statement), this is not ethical. Dealing with a ****** who loves a product for one reason or another and feels oblidged to evangelise it is one thing. Dealing with someone who does that for his own profit, sometimes deliberately misleading or trying to manipulate persons, views or situations, it's a whole different ballgame.
Nope it's exactly the same from a marketing standpoint.
The only difference, and it's somehow important, it's that you have a 100% control over the paid viral marketer. Other than that it's the same thing. there's no such thing as ethical in marketing.

That said, some of you seriously need a reality check. I'm working in a marketing group, therefore nothing comes off as a surprise, but what surprise me is to read that some of you expect things to change, because you politely asked for a change.

And as I said Viral marketing is a reallly precise and structured part of the marketing plan families. Paying bots to promote your products and do damage control is only a part of the thing.

I kind of maybe agree with your conclusion. But to me revealing one's employer is saying:

"BTW, I work for nVidia."
Nvidia internal policy do not allow them to disclose their identity on internet forums (Actually some are not even supposed to discuss the company products publicaly).

Nvidia contrarily to other IHV decided to control all the informations distilled on public. Their marketing reps have the full control over the information. But it seems that some of the higher ups saw that the enthusiats crowds were left alone with only Ati engineers to discuss with, and therefore they decided to create a positive buzz on the forum and keep a compelete control on the info. Enters AEG.

Pete

05-Dec-2005, 01:14

Bob seems to have outed himself as an NVidia employeeI meant to PM him to ask who he worked for after reading that post in case I'd missed an earlier revelation, as I honestly thought he worked for ATI or simply as an engineer elsewhere in the industry. OTOH, he did confirm the latest Quadro's actual clocks and he argued against my weak speculation pretty damn convincingly WRT NV40's sincos hardware.

I really appreciate his posts, and even if he doesn't or can't explicity state he's an employee of X or Y, I'd still want that kind of technically astute commentary in here (if only to balance out ppl like me).

KngtRider

05-Dec-2005, 01:19

I don't think this is exactly new, I'd be willing to bet this kind of thing has been going on for quite some time. And by all companies in various ways.

For instance, back in the G400 days I was a regular at Matrox Users, the "beta boys" were all religiously advocates of everything Matrox, snobbish even.

Ugh, don't remind me ...

Well their member's hardware maybe have changed, but I can't say the same about their attitudes ....

This discussion from their IRC channel a few years back I will never forget
this was while several members including myself were trying to help a visitor with a DVD issue

wellknown_matrox_usualsuspect: do you have a DVD burner ?
me: no
wellknown_matrox_usualsuspect: then shut up

I did counter than with saying I didn't own one myself at *home* but that didn't do any good, needless to say I did not stay around much longer, and I settled back at other more accommodating and friendly community web site IRC channels, and at the time, the majority of the murc IRC regulars did not even have any sort of matrox card so it was pointless.

Back before that when I was using NVIDIA hardware, there were tons of rabid fans that really didn't make much sense, more so than you would figure would happen naturally

And that has changed ? Wouldn't it be fair to say that it is increasing? As the numbers of interweb participants rise, installed web sites and forums as well increasing sales of higher end graphics? I'm sure I saw a posting around various sites of NV's recent profit.

Try to find a forum out of the tens of thousands of forums that have one mention of computer advice where there hasn't been any discussion or advise about 'what to buy' or 'i broke this, how do i fix it' , good luck.

You can find PC advice discussion it on all sorts of forms of online discussion, from photography to celebrity fan forums to ricer communities to various recreational hobbies across the full spectrum to the Q&A columns at magazines and newsgroups/yahoo groups and communities for various games to reseller networks if its online and has a general discussion section you can be assured that there will be some brand based discussion one way or another. Lets not forget the masses of non Wintel Communities for both online and print publications (not that there is anything wrong with non wintel)

In my experience the situation is worse for more touchy fields such as PC audio where discussion, results and comparisons can sometimes be subjective rather than objective. When objective comparisons are made, the influencers will find a way to debunk the results one way or another.

made me think some video card boxes must have had some cocaine dust in them or something, totally out there in defiance of blatant driver problems.

Its the 'new hardware smell' that does it. Didn't you get the memo? :D

As for 'blatant driver problems', both sides of the coin for both brands have been raised at certain points in time over the past few years.

If hypothetically these or what were 'blatant driver problems' disappeared overnight and catalyst were auto magically 'the best drivers evar' and stayed that way would that turn those who have a strong inter web voiced dislike and distaste for the brand (wether or not they have had personal experience ) ?

Not likely.

Why?

Cause they have to pay for it. Yes some people can be closed minded or like to shit people to prove their point but that can not be helped.

Enthusiast class graphics are not cheap, and then even not cheap in $AUD. At time of writing 256MB MSI GTX around $635 Inc Tax and 256M Gecube X1800XT start from $730 AUD Inc Tax...

Some are put off by talk and reported issues, some are put off by brand loyalty and enthisasm, some without having tried the brand or item in question.

No brand is perfect, each have their own bugs, problems and functionality limitations. Sometimes things are crippled by marketing or external factors but this occurs in many industries not just I.T. Anyone who has had some experience with programming or related fields knows about bugs too well. Computer software and modern hardware is some of the most complex devices on the planet.

Now you've got ATI beta testers on the go, but I don't know if that results in rabid fan loyalty as such, as I no longer pay as much attention to advocacy in forums,

Community presence is good especially since this product is such that it needs constant after sales support ,

Thanks to vendors gaining increasing awareness and being more proactive regarding communities and inter web presence, many products are still supported and function years after their release. Many are not, I do not need to mention the various otherwise good audio, graphics, and networking devices that have been EOL for a while now thanks to non existent after sales support.

Lets not forget the open source movement in this discussion.

If one is targeting such a community for any industry or field they need to understand it first. Unfortunately in modern times this entails putting up with and accepting that there might be some marketing campaigns or research conducted such as mentioned previously in this thread.

IT companies using external or additional PR, advertising and marketing agencies is nothing new, for some vendors or regions you do not have a choice.

It was only a matter of time till such marketing activities were discovered or applied to our communities and industry as they have been present in other fields for a while now, especially where products or events are targeted at the youth or pop culture. I have seen reports of viral marketing like activity where youths are paid to promote new singles, albums and events to their friends etc.Plenty examples of marketing Can you say iPod ?…

In this region any game title TV advertisement on TV that is multi platform, the voice over will not mention it is available on PC and only the format icon indicates the title is available on PC. They are trying to push console as we all know.

In marketing subjects there is a tool that is shown is a marketing pyramid and this has influencers, decision makers, purchasers, early adopters as slices of the pyramid etc. And who is it that has influence and bragging rights in online communities when it comes to bleeding edge hardware, the early adopters and influencers. Not much use trying to pitch a $1100 AUD graphics card (512MB GTX) to a small child or youth who will want it as a gift or to a parent as a gift when the products primary purpose is gaming.

One interesting example of marketing activities and industry research I saw a TV report recently about Generation Y (1976->) and of how they are a problem trying to market towards as they/we will be the majority in 20 years as the baby boomer generation (1950s and 60s) starts to disappear. This segment detailed how Gen Y doesn't react to mass media and marketing as well as previous generations and are more likely to listen to their peers and youth culture and dislike corporations and institutions etc etc.

Sound Familiar ?
I.E. Forum posters listening to the influencers.

The concept is such of concern to some companies that KPMG (a large insitution in this reason) have a ‘risk analyst’ in employ whose specialization is to look into the effects of Generation Y on business blah blah…..

This all leads to my main concern, I wonder where independent online IT media is heading in the future, both from the point of view of independent sites them/ourselves and from the point of view of vendors and marketing/PR firms

Kudos for NV choosing a firm which recognizes online communities for the unique medium that they are but it has a downside as all the previous posts have expressed

Up till the posting of this story by B3D/EliteBastards it was just the phenomenon of where the advent of easy to use publishing and web site tools has helped bring an influx of forums and sites by the week for any and every piece of hw and sw, now we have to face this issue where community members can be even more obsessive and enthusiastic than before thanks to being empowered by the previously mentioned marketing campaigns and it will be hard to tell whos who and whats what, if it was mass media such as tv, radio, newspapers theyd have to declare (in this country anyway) that they were affiliated/paid/whatever by a particular vendor but it'd be a bit hard to enforce that on the anonymous interweb forum. Requiring non free email addresses for signups can help

At least the respected independent outlets will survive through this.

In Australia , enthusiast class graphics are these days typically available thru bricks and mortar computer resellers or online and not consumer oriented franchises chain stores, they are just too expensive , complex one off purchases. Vendor road shows and demonstrations are quite rare.

They used to be in past when a graphics card was an essential add on item of a PC and before the ecommerce days. The chain stores do not even advertise the graphics capability of their boxed brand name computer systems and portables, as they perceive monitor size and type to be the win over factor, so when one wants a graphics card, so online opinions have even more importance. As the resellers who do specialize in this products affiliate with a online community as a portal for recommendation or use magazines as reference

To sum up, we may not like the idea of firms specializing in online communities and viral marketing, but we have to put up with it, as it is a consequence of a globalize corporate modern career/lifestyle.

And no I do not have any affiliation with the company nor have I heard of them before this thread and EB’s article.
More time and effort goes into a good piece of content on an independent site than the value of just a free widget or gizmo, and Conversion of a community contributor to being a evanglist for brand X is worth much more to brand X than the value of a token widget or gizmo. Not many realise this .

A lot of Microsoft’s key people have job titles of evangelists ;)

there are enough crazy people in real life without looking for them on the internet. :)

Yet the 'crazy' ones sometimes end up on the interweb...

rwolf

06-Dec-2005, 05:51

Geo

06-Dec-2005, 05:56

Your site is a bit green.

Oh, thanks for reminding me, I hadn't handed out "Non Sequitor of the Year" yet. . .

JoshMST

06-Dec-2005, 15:13

Your site is a bit green.

And your mom dresses you funny.

Oddly enough... the colors on my site are primarily Red and White.

Slyne

06-Dec-2005, 19:44

As was pointed out earlier, I find it suspicious that AEG was brought up only now, while apparently they've been working for Nvidia for a while. Could this have to do that ATI was not in position to use a backlash on Nvidia earlier this year? (not implying that ATI did that themselves, but maybe someone on their side of the fence who sees an opportunity).

Anyhow, my main point is that I can understand why Nvidia wouldn't want their engineers out in the open discussing product and technologies. As a software engineer myself (unrelated business domain, I am only here for my own personal enjoyment of graphics), I don't think my company would be too happy if I described everything that's wrong with our product. Of course the competition fares no better.

I am pretty confident that the hacks at the InqWell (is it me or that site becomes lamer by the year? I used to like them) aren't able to read the forums here and understand them, but imagine they come across a post by an Nvidia engineer that acknowledges some deficiency in their product (as no product is ever perfect) or some area where ATI does better (the Inquirer seems to be firmly on ATI's side lately, which is why I don't fear the opposite happening). What pile of misinformation, seemingly coming the source, could they publish once again? And unfortunately too many people propagate the Inq's posts on the web without thinking first these days...

So more power to ATI to leave that kind of freedom to their devs. Don't get me wrong, I am the kind of guy who would advise a customer to buy a competitor's product if it worked better in their case.

Slyne

06-Dec-2005, 19:50

I wanted to add that I personally don't care a rat's wits about AEG's efforts. The first thing I will tell you is that, from experience, most developers are technically mistaken most of the time, even recognized ones. So what applies with the best technologically-acquainted people should apply to anyone you know on a forum: think twice when they tell you something.

Now, if what they say is right, whether they say it for free or because they're paid to do so doesn't matter, it's still right; if it's wrong, plenty of well-intentioned people will have said the same thing by mistake anyway. At the receiving end of those messages, there's no difference for me about the source, I still have to sort the good from the bad.

As for my purchases, I'd never buy something based uniquely on forum posts, but always after a few trusted sites have reviewed it. As for the Regular Joes out there, in other domains we're all mislead about cars, food, doctors and politics (WMD anyone?); whether Joe buys the absolute best graphics card for his money really is a small issue in comparison.

kemosabe

07-Dec-2005, 03:47

Your site is a bit green.

About as goblinish as they come, indeed. ;)

Slyne

07-Dec-2005, 07:56

Kombatant

07-Dec-2005, 15:19

Nope it's exactly the same from a marketing standpoint.
The only difference, and it's somehow important, it's that you have a 100% control over the paid viral marketer. Other than that it's the same thing. there's no such thing as ethical in marketing.
I know. That doesn't mean I agree with this - hence my post.

As was pointed out earlier, I find it suspicious that AEG was brought up only now, while apparently they've been working for Nvidia for a while. Could this have to do that ATI was not in position to use a backlash on Nvidia earlier this year? (not implying that ATI did that themselves, but maybe someone on their side of the fence who sees an opportunity). You'll be surprised how many issues are known to a selected few, but never brought up, and then one day they are reveiled to the public and everybody pretends they didn't know and act surprised :p Knowing something from word of mouth is one thing; but having proof is a whole different ballgame.

Geo

07-Dec-2005, 15:35

digitalwanderer

07-Dec-2005, 15:44

Apparently that AEG website is only from Nov. 17th.
Dumb question, how did you find that out? :-|

Check their blog: http://www.aeginfo.com/blog/
Nevermind. :oops:

Druga Runda

07-Dec-2005, 15:50

Thanks to whoever decided to shoot my reputation instead of simply answering me. I stand by my opinion: I don't think AEG is that bad. And my graphics card is an X800Pro, I'm no green propaganda agent (I actually still like ATI better, in spite of their lackluster 2005).

Honestly, what is worse: Nvidia hiring a company to boost their products in forums, or Nvidia tweaking their drivers to change IQ on the fly and improve framerates, thereby manipulating reviewers and customers? I'd rather they focus on product and features, and leave the bullsh*tting to others. In the end, it's always the product that matters: no bullsh*tting could save the 5800, but the 7800 is selling on its own merits.
The bad part is - deception. If this very person tells you "I am from AEG - Nvidia marketing contractors team hired to work on on-line forums" would paint their comments in a different light straight away.

However this same dude say he is a normal user telling you there is nothing wrong with IQ and that FPS is all that matters. Now you will get normal fanb0is, or simply users who di not see a difference, doing this for free, the problem is when a paid person comes and does that to you under the "anonimity of the net" pretending that they are a "regular user"...

that is disturbing... and if the actions were positive with "nothing to hide" they surely would want you to know who they are, as the public would appreciate their input on any given product... if they were disclosing some tech specs, or how to sort out some problems you get with games not running correctly etc... and this would be a very positive PR campaign that the company would be proud to let you know they are doing it for you - the customer - for free.

Slyne

07-Dec-2005, 17:12

Apparently that AEG website is only from Nov. 17th. That could have something to do with it too as for the "why now" aspects. Check their blog: http://www.aeginfo.com/blog/ After all, a good bit of the proof of what they do and how they do it is from their own website and what they and their customers say about it.

It destroys my conspiracy theory af ATI's side biding their time :roll: , but I agree that could have likely been the start. Nice finding!

aldamon

07-Dec-2005, 17:15

I think the outrage and the rampant discussion about AEG's is brilliant viral marketing for them. There's no such thing as bad publicity. Also, AEG probably couldn't care less what is said about their program here. Their "members" are bound NDA, so they're not going to out themselves. So what does this "outrage" accomplish except to give AEG more exposure? Sadly, I think this will all blow over when the next controversy, driver cheat, or video card launch comes and then it will be business as usual for these goons. The public forgets things very quickly. :evil:

Geo

07-Dec-2005, 17:21

Well, it would be interesting to know how many "Hey! What about me?!" emails they've gotten since Friday. :lol:

Edit: Hmm, tho I have been going around telling everyone "check their blog, check their blog." Hmm. :razz:

Slyne

07-Dec-2005, 17:52

The bad part is - deception. If this very person tells you "I am from AEG - Nvidia marketing contractors team hired to work on on-line forums" would paint their comments in a different light straight away.

[...]

that is disturbing... and if the actions were positive with "nothing to hide" they surely would want you to know who they are, as the public would appreciate their input on any given product... if they were disclosing some tech specs, or how to sort out some problems you get with games not running correctly etc... and this would be a very positive PR campaign that the company would be proud to let you know they are doing it for you - the customer - for free.

While I agree with you on moral grounds, I think companies fight for their survival, to be the best of the pack, whatever the cost. Nvidia is the company that bought 3Dfx/3dfx, they know how hard derailed planning and execution can make you fall. So I suppose they'll do anything (legal) to keep the upper hand.

Being open, exposing your issues, can sometimes perceived as being weak, and maybe Nvidia would rather look evil than weak :wink: It worked for other, bigger, corporations after all.

But I agree, ATI being more frank and open, trying hard to make up for their initially horrible drivers, helps people be more supportive when its own plans derail (esp. when they can say it was a third-party issue). I did notice less bashing of ATI this year than I saw of Nvidia during the blowdryer FX era, maybe it's me. But that'll only work with individuals, OEM customers care only about results, not methodology.

:arrow: OK, one last stand and then I'll shut up on this subject. I am a believer in viral marketing.

I read an interesting, while not transcendent, book named purple cow a while ago. The book, using facts to demonstrate, is just about how the new information society, the internet and the newsgroups, have rendered the old media advertising more or less moribund. Go spend all your money on a big TV ad, and see very little revenue come back to you. It's all about word of mouth these days, and the category of people that other people refer to to help them choose what to buy. Those people the book calls "sneezers".

But, I don't believe viral marketing works well for hiding a product flaws and make up for design or execution failure. I believe that viral marketing is best at showing people cool features that a product has that they may not be aware of. Because of its very nature, viral marketing targets sneezers. And they're not stupid, they don't know everything so you can help them discover new products or new trends; but you can't LIE to them for a long while before they uncover the truth, because they usually do their own research. And then you'll have a backlash, maybe of bigger proportions than the good word-of-mouth before.

That's why I don't think AEG is such a big issue. Maybe I'll be proven wrong.