Hype and review scores. [Archive]

Geeforcer

03-Dec-2002, 17:19

Looking at the review scores for certain games, I can't help but note an interesting trend: when a much published game from a huge widely recognized developer comes along (especially if the game is a sequel), the first wave of the review scores is rarely reflected in the comments by people who actually bought and played it. You know what I am talking about: a good game deserving of high 8/low 9 scores suddenly end up with 9.9s and perfect 10s. Mediocre games that should have gotten 6s end up with 8s.

Here are some examples:

Halo: Certainly a very good game, deserving of 9+ score. But 9.9? 10? Come on - the game was not perfect. If the absolutely identical game was released, but without the hype and the name, it would have ended up with 9.2s and 9.3s.

MGS2: Again, a good game - but it did become repetitive and the story made no sense whatsoever. IMO, it was in the high 8 range - but how many 9.7 reviews have you seen?

MarioSunshine: Another game that received a hefty tilt. High 8/low 9 range, but it still got many 9.5s, 5 out of 5s, etc.

State of Emergency: Iâ€™ve seen scores, of 8.5, 8.8, 9.0, etc. I am still wondering what game all those reviewers where playing.

The biggest offenders: FF 8 and 9. Every 9.5 review made me cringe - and there were plenty

So, the question is: do the highly publicized games (esp. sequels) coming from famous developers get an unrealistic tilt, or is it just my imagination?

Mr. Angry Pants

03-Dec-2002, 17:29

Yes, hype has an enormous impact on a game's final score. You will never, ever, no matter how good it is see a game without hype recieve a perfect score.

CaptainHowdy

03-Dec-2002, 17:58

I dunno, I think it comes down to the individual who is reviewing, I personally thought SOE was a turd on a stick, but there are many people out there who loved it, if the reviewer is one of them, if he LOVED a game, he is naturally going to want to score it high.

Same with Halo, I dont know many people who have played it and not loved it, I think it is very deserving of a 9-9.5 score, it was epic, and though it had many flaws(level design my biggest gripe), it certainly should be placed higher than most games out there..

MGS2 reviews, I don't know what they were smoking, but I think everything comes down to personal taste..

Commandos behind enemy lines for PC got mainly 5's to 7's
and if I were reviewing it, I would have given it a 10..
I think thats why sites like gamerankings.com is important, you
see every view from every side..
though on games like Halo and Metroid Prime, the few low scores you find tend to be from some very misinformed people who are usually showing heavey signs of bias, or just plain were not good enough to handle the game.

Blade

03-Dec-2002, 18:07

Some would agree that those games deserved such scores.

I don't agree with perfect reviews unless a game is heavily polished and very fun, but fun factor plays a major part in reviews.

If the audio/video/presentation suck, and the gameplay/control/fun is the best.. I wouldn't hesitate to give it above a 9.

You mentioned Mario, which was one of my favorite games this year. It had its problems, but I still spent almost 2 weeks straight with it being the only console game I played.. and I had just bought Halo and some other Xbox titles beforehand. I even got around to renting Monkey Ball 2, but even then I was too intrigued by SMS to get serious with Sega's monkey sequel.

IMO, IGN's review states it the best.. sure the game was apparently a little rushed and lacked the polish that most other "AAA" Nintendo games do.. but it still comes through as an addicting gameplay experience. 5/5? Maybe not. I think SMS deserved the 9.4 that IGN (and GameSpy) gave it, though.. just for the fun factor. It could've been better, but eh.. it was great anyway. If it was any other game by any other name, it would have done the same! This is Jesse Jackson signing off!

Johnny Awesome

03-Dec-2002, 18:08

I agree that hype/bias is really screwing up game reviews lately. These are the adjustments to the general review consensus I would make to a few recent titles:

Halo 9.5 -> 9.5 (I think it deserved the scores it got)

Morrowind 9.1 -> 8 (buggy, ugly, nothing truly special)

GTA (both games) - worthy of 9.0, but not any higher

MGS 2 9.5 -> 8.5 (ridiculous that it got 9.7s in some places)

Mario Sunshine 9.5 -> 8.5 (poor control and presentation, nostalgia really helped this title)

Quantum Redshift 7.3 -> 8.5 (great game)

BLiNX 7.3 -> 8.3 (underated, not quite as good as SMS though)

Splinter Cell 9.5 -> 9.0 (good, but overated)

MechAssault 9.2 -> 8.9 (lobby problem is inexcusable)

Metroid Prime 9.7 -> 9.2 (control problems were easily avoidable)

Sometimes games are over-hyped and there's a backlash, like BLiNX and Quantum Redshift, but other times it translates into ridiculously high reviews, like MGS2. It's pretty rare when a game is off by more than 10 points and it's a shame when this happens, but that's why it pays to read reviews and not just look at the final scores.

Vince

03-Dec-2002, 18:20

MGS2: Again, a good game - but it did become repetitive and the story made no sense whatsoever. IMO, it was in the high 8 range - but how many 9.7 reviews have you seen?

Ohh, you did not...<covers mouth in shock>

Yeah, I mean, God-firbid a video game act as a vehicle to instill questions of morality and our own future. I mean, the nerve of that Japanese son-of-a-bitch for making a two part series that tackled questions like, "How much of life is derived from my Genes" and then follow it up asking "How much of life is derived from Information". Not like we're facing that same philisophical question in contemporary society or anything - so where does he get off?

Doesn't that ass know that all gamers want to do is mindlessly shoot other moving targets? I mean, you don't even have to shoot a single person in this game.. please!

So, next time Kojima, don't follow the MG tradition [way before the MG-Solids came out] of Codec and intense story telling that has philisopical and moral overtones because people don't want that. Just give then a 1st person camera, an M-60 with infinate ammo, and tell then that an alien race is overtaking this world. It'll be HUGE

Now, excuse me why I go ponder my own philisophical questions like - Perhaps the leftist media is right, all these people can comprehend is killing and simplistsic ideals. Or, Perhaps trend this ties into the undereducation of the average American that I previously said was BS... hmm

EDIT:

JohnnyAwesome: You know I have a HALO fetish, but common. HALO deserves a 9.5 for being a strait-up, blast the aliens, FPS; but MGS2 doesn't for being a game thats not a FPS, maybe a game that makes you think about the world around you, not just how to kill the next guy in GTA or HALO or Max Payne?

If anything, MGSx deserves a higher score because unlike the other strait-up FPS games, it veers from the path and uses the fact that it's an interactive media to teach you something.

[not personal as you should know GeeForcer, just the principle]

Vince

03-Dec-2002, 18:35

Oh, yeah, I knew there was a point in there somewhere... :)

Perhaps if you understrood the plot in a game like MGS2, you could appreciate it for what it is and the developer anticipated. While theirs no doubt there is some inflation of any hyped game's scores - the reviewers are 'professionals' what ever that means. They do this alot more than you, know alot more about the games than you - if you don't like the reviews then don't read them.

Also, unlike the 'preofessional' reviewers, you aren't exposed to the turds that some games truely are. So, of course when looking at a top-down perspective--having only played the, say, top 10% of games--you miss the vast amount of shit down at the bottom of the hill.

I learned this after playing that Extreme Paintball game on PC a few years ago... still get the occasional nightmare from that.

marconelly!

03-Dec-2002, 18:44

It's all a matter of an opinion and how the reviewer feels while he's playing the game.

For example, MGS2, in my opinion, is one of the most fun, polished and visually and aurally impressive games ever made. I love it, don't care what others think about my feelings towards it, and I think it deserves high scores it got. It's story may be melodramatic and overdone (however, it's obvious that the game is not taking itself seriously most of the time), but nothing ever made has been perfect.

Halo, GTA3, and GTA:VC are also extremly playable and fun games. They deserve all the 9.5s and 10s they got (again, in my opinon). Why would you not give a high score to a game that you are having a lot of fun with, to a game that 'talks to you' and makes you feel good?

Ozymandis

03-Dec-2002, 18:45

Metroid Prime 9.7 -> 9.2 (control problems were easily avoidable)

Totally :(

Blade

03-Dec-2002, 19:06

Johnny: SMS had control issues? MP = 9.2?

Okay, whatever you say. Heh, I'm glad that you're not a professional game journalist.. :)

If MP is a 9.2, Halo is definitely under 9.

Geeforcer

03-Dec-2002, 20:13

Ohh, you did not...<covers mouth in shock>

Yeah, I mean, God-firbid a video game act as a vehicle to instill questions of morality and our own future. I mean, the nerve of that Japanese son-of-a-bitch for making a two part series that tackled questions like, "How much of life is derived from my Genes" and then follow it up asking "How much of life is derived from Information". Not like we're facing that same philisophical question in contemporary society or anything - so where does he get off?

Doesn't that ass know that all gamers want to do is mindlessly shoot other moving targets? I mean, you don't even have to shoot a single person in this game.. please!

So, next time Kojima, don't follow the MG tradition [way before the MG-Solids came out] of Codec and intense story telling that has philisopical and moral overtones because people don't want that. Just give then a 1st person camera, an M-60 with infinate ammo, and tell then that an alien race is overtaking this world. It'll be HUGE

Now, excuse me why I go ponder my own philisophical questions like - Perhaps the leftist media is right, all these people can comprehend is killing and simplistsic ideals. Or, Perhaps trend this ties into the undereducation of the average American that I previously said was BS... hmm

EDIT:

JohnnyAwesome: You know I have a HALO fetish, but common. HALO deserves a 9.5 for being a strait-up, blast the aliens, FPS; but MGS2 doesn't for being a game thats not a FPS, maybe a game that makes you think about the world around you, not just how to kill the next guy in GTA or HALO or Max Payne?

If anything, MGSx deserves a higher score because unlike the other strait-up FPS games, it veers from the path and uses the fact that it's an interactive media to teach you something.

[not personal as you should know GeeForcer, just the principle]

O...k...

Vince, my favorite games are RPGs, that are made or broken by the story/plot. I can't stand the games without them, and greatly enjoy graphics inferior game if the story is compelling. However, there is line between rich, complex and fascinating, and overblown, melodramatic and convoluted. IMO, MGS2 crossed that line.

Johnny Awesome

03-Dec-2002, 20:36

Vince you seem easily impressed by MGS2, but we've had this argument before. Complex does not = good. The issues were raised at a grade six level. I'm fine with discussing these issues in games. It's the execution in MGS2 that bother me. I spent 8 years in university so I'm no stranger to rigorous thinking. You think MGS2 tackled these issues well and I think they were handled horribly. Let's just agree to disagree on the matter. :)

Ozymandis

03-Dec-2002, 21:10

If MP is a 9.2, Halo is definitely under 9.

That's a bold statement Blade.

Hmmm. I do feel that Metroid Prime owns Halo (single-player), bad controls or no.

On the other hand, I agree with Johnny somewhat. Metroid is obviously getting the benefit of some serious nostalgia. The game is no 99 or even a 97 in my book. It's the best game of the year, but it's got a few elements that I perceive to be flaws.

CaptainHowdy

03-Dec-2002, 21:17

Metroid Prime 9.7 -> 9.2 (control problems were easily avoidable)

Totally :(

when you find another shooter where platform jumping is as smooth
as it is in Metroid Prime, come back and I'll let you call it a problem, until then, we can just consider it YOUR problem, because I certainly am having no problems with it.. its hands down the smoothest control scheme Ive seen... do you use Cstick to strafe in Rachet and Clank? does it suck because you cant? because Metroid Prime plays like that, just because you are seeing from Samus' eyes instead of behind her back doesnt mean the controls should change with that.

BoddoZerg

03-Dec-2002, 21:31

You forget, the problem is much worse with PC games than console:

Warcraft III = 95% --> 85-90%, its a great game but not as good as Starcraft was.
Unreal Tournament 2003 = 90%+ --> 80-85%, again a good game but not as good as its predecessors.
NOLF2 = 92% --> 80-85%, NOLF was much better.
Black & White = 95% --> Turd in a Box, 60%
The Thing = 90% --> Turd in a Box that Vomits on You, 50%

Its definitely true that a lot of games get hyped up as the second coming, and then all the reviewers rush to give it the best review they can write. Usually, as with Black & White, there's a backlash in the second wave of reviews, the reviewers who actually played the game before reviewing it, and give it a drastically lower score.

IMHO, the problem is that reviewers are afraid of giving a poor review of a much-hyped game, especially in the PC field where the number of big budget games is few. After all, why take the chance of giving a bad review to a UT2003 or Warcraft 3, losing thousands of sales (since most gaming mags are tied in with videogame stores) and potentially pissing off the game company and losing advertisements? On the other hand, with an unhyped "Strifeshadow" or other small independent game, reviewers don't dare to place a 90%+ on a game that might turn into an embarassing flop, selling single-digit thousands of copies.

Unfortunately, its gotten to the point where I dont even bother with reviews. When it comes down to it, 75% of the time I find myself disagreeing with everything said in reviews, so I dont trust a single word reviewers say.

Rodéric

03-Dec-2002, 22:23

I agree hype helps *a lot* unfortunately.

But even so, people have different taste, almost no reviewer have my taste which is really a problem to me, because I've a hard time figuring out what will please me or not.

Eternal Darkness is fun, but too dark to me, and there's something missing (the changing view exists in legacy of kain series, the sanity level exists in Kult, a RPG I played).

Star Fox Adventure, although a bit too easy, I enjoy playing it a lot !

Super Mario Sunshine, nice really, some interesting new stuff, find the all style 3D platformer a bit too hard (all my current levels are stopped at one of them ;( )

NeverWinter Nights : Single player is lame (IMO). Multiplayer have potential, but it's hard to find a good party and a good DM....

Rogue Leader : it's star wars, it's fun, but it's too hard IMO.

Luigi's mansion : one of my first NGC game, really funny, I enjoyed it.

Resident Evil : it looks gorgeous... but that's about all about it :(

Pikmin : it's just too cool, I love pikmin.

I believe pikmin didn't got too many good reviews even if I found it really nice, it wasn't hyped either...

Teasy

03-Dec-2002, 22:32

On the other hand, I agree with Johnny somewhat. Metroid is obviously getting the benefit of some serious nostalgia. The game is no 99 or even a 97 in my book. It's the best game of the year, but it's got a few elements that I perceive to be flaws.

Its got nothing to do with nostalgia. You just said MP is the game of the year, yet how many other games this year have gotten 99's and 97's quite a few. It just comes down to what review system your using. Reviewers tend to have a different system to normal people. Allot of sites will give a slightly flawed game a 5 out of 5 or 10 out ot 10 as long as they loved the game. A 100% at most sites doesn't even seem to mean a perfect game (what game could be perfect?), it just means a great game. Once you start judging review scores by the sites usual scores I think you can see that MP deserves most of the scores it gets.

Some of MP's review scores are rediculous, but not for being too high, for being far to low. A site just reviewed MP and gave it 60%.. what where they thinking? :)

Blade

03-Dec-2002, 22:33

Ozy: Well, since we're throwing around "crazy" opinions here (like Metroid Prime's scheme being bad) then I think I'll state my opinion on Halo. I'm a FPS enthusiast, and after playing through Halo.. I can say that it's not as good as I expected after the reviews.

In fact, I'd argue that there are only 2-3 "good" levels in Halo. Maybe 4 or 5. The other half of 'em are utterly repetitive.

BTW, I wouldn't talk about MP's controls Ozy. Everybody kept trying to tell you that the game isn't a straight FPS, more of a first-person adventure.. but you didn't listen. Now you think that they should drop the review score a whole notch because "it's a console FPS and requires dual-analog". I agree that I think that there's a small fault with the MP controls (in certain spots) but I'm not exaggerating like you are. (i.e. posting a little sad face and a comment about the controls every f'ing time a Metroid Prime thread comes up.. :D)

Oh, and what Teasy said. Besides that, most sites rate according to console. If MP is one of the best games that GCN ever sees (or GOTY, or whatever) there is no reason not to give it 9.5+ reviews. (which it has gotten, 97.6% average on GR)

CaptainHowdy

03-Dec-2002, 23:04

Geeforcer

04-Dec-2002, 00:46

Do note that I didn't cite MP or any other recently released games for a reason: some time has to pass until things die down a little and we can see whether the game lived up to the hype and the reviews. In a coupe of month, when everything settled down and is distilled, we will be able to judge what role hype, nostalgia, Nintendo factor did or did not play in the MPs reviews, but right now its far too really to make such calls.

BTW, the last relatively recent major game that came out of nowhere with minimum hype and was great was Half-Life. I read some positive comments about it early on, then nothing for a year. A couple of months prior to its release, it was mentioned in PCGamers 100 upcoming games feature, and the comments were rather lukewarm. Then, all of the sudden, BAM: I go to Sharky Extreme and see an extremely positive review. LOL, at that time I was shacking with anticipation for Daikatana and have given up on half-life.

Tagrineth

04-Dec-2002, 01:09

speaking of which, one guy said he loved MP, it was one of the best games he ever played, but knocked 20 points off its score because he said he did not like to read.

I'm sorry, what?

You don't even have to read anything much to get THROUGH the game... well except maybe getting all the Artefacts. :P

This goes in with all the "reviewers" who say 'oh thers to much scaning, u gota scan evrything' or something like that...

The controls are perfect for the game's style, period. The ONLY way I could see jumping be remotely decent with dual-analogue is if, say, the Z button was for jumping. But that'd just feel odd to me...

BenSkywalker

04-Dec-2002, 01:36

As far as games landing perfect scores, I think people put it along the lines of getting a perfect grade in school too frequently. Games are entertainment, not a test. ;) If you see a movie land four out of four stars does anyone truly expect it to be absolutely perfect? A TV show? A book? I don't have a problem with several games this year that have landed perfect scores, although some of them I certainly don't agree with, I think some people are simply not realistic in their expectations of what a perfect score for a game constitutes.

For titles without too much hype that landed killer review scores, I didn't see all that much on Splinter Cell(at least, not nearly as much as most of the other titles we are discussing).

The controls are perfect for the game's style, period.

No, they definitely aren't. There are a few major problems with the controls in MP. First is the platforming. Particularly later in the game where there are numerous jumps that you have to take just right and at the right angle if you want to make. Without the ability to see the edge of the paltform you are on they should have avoided making jumps that were even close to easy to miss. In the Phazon Crater when you have to make the series of jumps while avoiding those particular enemies I don't know how many times I got knocked off because I couldn't spin around fast enough while dodging. This wasn't added difficulty in an enjoyable fashion, this was simply a pain in the ass. You don't take damage from falling(unless you fall into lava or Phazon prior to the proper armor upgrade), having so many platform elements in the game combined with the control scheme and viewpoint wasn't a good choice IMO.

The other end of the control issues is that 'locking on' is not seemless. The cloacked pirates as a general example, you can't lock on to them without wearing one of the proper visors, and for one of the mini bosses in the Phazon Mines you don't even posess the proper visor when you fight him. If you could always lock on to your enemy then the lack of dual analog wouldn't be such an issue, but you can't so it is. Ridley is another annoying fight due to this. When you are in melee combat and he charges you if he gets too close and your lock 'breaks off' you can only target his head, which you can't do without manually aiming to see his head. Problem is if he charges you and is close he is going to hit you with his claws and tail. You run away without locking on and he may charge you again while your back is turned. You end up having to drop in to a ball and roll away from him and extending the length of the fight simply because there is no dual analog option.

I certainly agree with Ozy that MP has some serious control problems. Yes, you figure out how to work around them, that simply makes up too much of the difficulty of the game. In a FPS, having less then ideal controls is akin to having lousy cameras in a third person game and it is certainly a valid complaint in MP's case.

Tagrineth

04-Dec-2002, 02:00

The only jumps I had ANY real trouble with in the entire game were the ones in the last room before the end... and that's solely because of the infinite supply of Fission Metroids. Yes, it is frustrating, but that's only until you realise two things: one, the metroids follow a fixed pattern which can be exploited, and two, power bombs kill them instantly after they grab you. :)

There was one other jump that gave me some grief, that was the first jump after getting the X-Ray visor, for some reason I can never get enough air to reach the first platform. o.O

If you REALLY have that much trouble judging where your feet are when you jump... try holding R, aiming down some (45Âº seems to be good), holding L, letting go of R. There you go, now you can see your "feet". :\

You complain about the cloaked pirates? Well the whole IDEA is that they're supposed to challenge you by making you use the Thermal Visor! The TV doesn't have that many other uses, really. What the hell are you complaining about? OH NO YOU HAVE TO PUSH DOWN ON THE CROSS PAD! OH SHOCK HORROR! YOUR FINGER WILL SURELY FALL OFF AT THE SHEER DIFFICULTY OF THE TASK! </sarcasm> The first cloaker you fight doesn't even CLOAK because you don't have the appropriate visor yet... :lol:

And what miniboss are you talking about, exactly? By the time you really go into the Mines, you have all four visors... and the only boss in the mines which requires a different visor is the Omega Pirate. What's the big deal? So they added some depth to the game! NOOOOOOOOOOOOO~ </sarcasm>

Ridley? Hard? What? I was jammin'! That music rocked... the fight was far too easy IMO. :\ I didn't have any of those lock-on problems, really... and if he charges past you, and you lose the lock because you suck too much to hold left and hit 'B' twice to dodge, you CAN just turn around and lock back on to him! Trying to run without locking on to him is just ASKING for him to recover from his lunge and hit you again. And you have to target his head by manually aiming for it? You really didn't pay much attention to the lockon mechanics at the Station, did you? If the circle reticule appears around something, you can lock onto it even if it's a little above your head level. His head is NEVER too high to lock-on without aiming up. And besides all that, what's so hard about aiming up a tiny bit with R then holding L? OH NO MORE BUTTONS TO PUSH D: Don't try to hide the fact that you suck at the game by blaming the controls.

BenSkywalker

04-Dec-2002, 02:20

And what miniboss are you talking about, exactly? By the time you really go into the Mines, you have all four visors... and the only boss in the mines which requires a different visor is the Omega Pirate.

The boss before you get the PBs in the Phazon Mines, and no, you don't have the XRay visor at that point.

Yes, it is frustrating, but that's only until you realise two things:

It's frustrating strictly because of the controls, no other reason. If you had the option to use a modify button to switch to dual analog it would be no problem whatsoever.

Well the whole IDEA is that they're supposed to challenge you by making you use the Thermal Visor! The TV doesn't have that many other uses, really. What the hell are you complaining about?

Actually, activating power switches to open doors is without a doubt the most useful feature of the TV. The 'challenge' is supposed to be switching visors......? It's an annoyance.

Perhaps I should have used the ghost example instead, I fought more then a dozen of them on my current play through and no XRay yet.

Ridley? Hard?

When did I say that? Did you read my post?

extending the length of the fight simply because there is no dual analog option.

It makes it longer, more of an annoyance. Difficulty to me indicates failure, IIRC I had five or six energy tanks left after offing Ridley(prior to picking up what he dropped).

And you have to target his head by manually aiming for it? You really didn't pay much attention to the lockon mechanics at the Station, did you? If the circle reticule appears around something, you can lock onto it even if it's a little above your head level.

That would be great if it were slightly relelvant. If you fight Ridley up close he won't charge at you nearly as often, he will mainly revert to swinging his claws. If you fight him at medium range he will due his growl/flame thing. If you fight him from a distance then he will continue to do the charge(these are tendencies, he will mix it up although the ratio changes based on your distance. If you stand all the way back then you don't have issues tragetting him.

His head is NEVER too high to lock-on without aiming up.

If you fight him up close then when he stands up you are looking about at his knee and you can not lock on to his head. You really didn't pay much attention when you fought him, did you? :-?

And besides all that, what's so hard about aiming up a tiny bit with R then holding L? OH NO MORE BUTTONS TO PUSH D: Don't try to hide the fact that you suck at the game by blaming the controls.

You have to stop moving. This is Samus Aran, the bounty hunter feared throughout the galaxy, and she can't aim and move at the same time.... :roll:

The game was too easy on normal mode(Hard is much better, though I'm hoping for a higher difficulty level after beating hard). An easy game trying to add length or challenge through sloppy controls/bad layout(platforming segments) is not a good thing.

marconelly!

04-Dec-2002, 02:34

I think some people are simply not realistic in their expectations of what a perfect score for a game constitutes.
This is *exactly* what I was thinking. I think the culprit, to a degree, is how games often get score on a 0-100% scale. When something is scored on such a large scale, you expect it to be near damn perfect when it gets 98, 99 or 100%. Also, if you happen not to like particular game, you will be even more inclined to get angry on a reviewer that scored it so high!

I would love if everyone would accept 5 stars review system, like some publication already have, or even better, thumbs up/thumbs down system.

Tagrineth

04-Dec-2002, 03:01

The boss before you get the PBs in the Phazon Mines, and no, you don't have the XRay visor at that point.

Hmm, I still don't know what you're talking about, guess it must have been really easy and thus not have been any worry at all to me :roll:

It's frustrating strictly because of the controls, no other reason. If you had the option to use a modify button to switch to dual analog it would be no problem whatsoever.

OK, so with dual analogue it'd be easier to turn around midair. That doesn't even account for the simple fact that the game features semi-realistic momentum so you don't necessarily have to hold forward while you jump anyway! You can still turn around midjump, for one thing.

And YES SOME FIGHTING WOULD PROBABLY BE EASIER WITH DUAL ANALOGUE (there, I said it :evil: ), but PLEASE OH PLEASE explain to me how platforming should be done with DA? Turok: Evolution's platforming is atrocious, and not just because of level design.

It seems to me like you're wanting this game to be still yet another cookie-cutter FPS with just some spiffy graphical effects and other elements which really shouldn't affect a run and gun mentality!

Actually, activating power switches to open doors is without a doubt the most useful feature of the TV. The 'challenge' is supposed to be switching visors......? It's an annoyance.

I didn't say that fighting cloakers was the most useful, I just said it's one of the FEW. I said 'challenge' sarcastically, it really is a bit of a nuisance but it does keep you on your toes. Plus the thermal visor output looks really cool ^_^ Too bad they forgot to make Phendrana pitch black... :roll:

Perhaps I should have used the ghost example instead, I fought more then a dozen of them on my current play through and no XRay yet.

Yeah, they're supposed to be somewhat hard the first few times. At least, until you realise it only takes just over one Super Missile to kill one. But really, the very fact that you can't lock on to them all the time IS what makes them hard. Same as having to swap visors constantly against the rock boss (I'm surprised you haven't brought that up yet!).

Did you even notice how pathetic the ghosts become after getting the X-ray?

When did I say that? Did you read my post?

It makes it longer, more of an annoyance. Difficulty to me indicates failure, IIRC I had five or six energy tanks left after offing Ridley(prior to picking up what he dropped).

That would be great if it were slightly relelvant. If you fight Ridley up close he won't charge at you nearly as often, he will mainly revert to swinging his claws. If you fight him at medium range he will due his growl/flame thing. If you fight him from a distance then he will continue to do the charge(these are tendencies, he will mix it up although the ratio changes based on your distance. If you stand all the way back then you don't have issues tragetting him.

If you fight him up close then when he stands up you are looking about at his knee and you can not lock on to his head. You really didn't pay much attention when you fought him, did you? :-?

No, I didn't pay attention, really, and I still beat him silly. I lost three energy tanks fighting him and if you count picked up energy balls I only lost "one".

Why the devil would you want to get that close to him? The best distance to fight him is mid range, as you say, so he'll do the flame thing... so you can nail his head... so you can hit his chest and do damage.

You have to stop moving. This is Samus Aran, the bounty hunter feared throughout the galaxy, and she can't aim and move at the same time.... :roll:

Would you rather she's incapable of making simple jumps (Turok:Evolution comes to mind, he can't jump worth shit but he's supposed to hunt dinosaurs?)? She can circle-strafe better than anyone else in the galaxy, I fear that more than being able to manually aim and move at once. And if you lock on to a target you can certainly aim and move simultaneously... just one aspect is done for you. Looks like Samus is more adept than you think! :roll:

The game was too easy on normal mode(Hard is much better, though I'm hoping for a higher difficulty level after beating hard). An easy game trying to add length or challenge through sloppy controls/bad layout(platforming segments) is not a good thing.

I didn't end up being more challenged by controls, not one little bit. The layout of the platforming segments is brilliant, as I said there was only one part where I consistently missed a jump (other times I only missed because I was rushing and forgetting the odd aerial pirate here and there, thus getting knocked off-course). I think you're probably the only person I've ever seen complain about Prime's layout / area design, pretty much everyone else agrees Prime has some of the best 3D level design ever seen. This is mainly because the controls facilitate good jumping.

Johnny Awesome

04-Dec-2002, 03:12

Tagrineth

04-Dec-2002, 03:15

Let's face facts: Miyamoto screwed up the controls in Metroid Prime. The Halo controls would have been perfect for this game, but Nintendo HAD to be different. The more I play the game, the more apparent this becomes.

I have to disagree, even HALO's jumping isn't that fantastic and takes a lot of getting used to. It'd work better if we had a third hand :roll: but that'd solve a LOT of control problems these days.

I still don't understand what the big problem is with Prime's controls, I have yet to hit any real snags in them whatsoever. Everyone I know IRL, myself included, has had no problem using them properly on their first try (well actually there is one exception, one guy did die once in the Station).

Geeforcer

04-Dec-2002, 03:26

Just because it works doesn't mean its perfect. The fact that I could play FPSs in the PC using numpad for targeting (hey, it worked fairly well in Duke3D) doesn't mean I would not much rather use the mouse.

Blade

04-Dec-2002, 04:18

Tagrineth: They have a right to their opinions, even if we think they're silly. :)

Honestly, I've had almost no problem with MP's controls myself. The platform jumping was problematic once in a while*, but it's easily the best jumping scheme I've seen in a first-person game. It's a console game too.. and first-person jumping with a console controller is usually a chore. In MP, however.. it's a breeze. You people like to exaggerate, it seems.

The other reported qualm is the lack of dual-analog. What's wrong? Did you go in expecting MP to be a FPS? Shame..

MP is not a FPS as the original Metroid games weren't Contra-style action games. Apparently we need some sort of industrial drill to imprint this into some of your brains.. :) Going dual-analog would change the entire feel of the game..

* More like once in a blue moon, now that I think about it! My only qualm was not being able to turn easily while jumping, and the game doesn't require you to do it. I'm just so used to PC FPS's that I occasionally use FPS-isms in MP.

mkillio

04-Dec-2002, 04:53

The only time that I had real trouble with jumping was when I was in the wrecked space station under water without the gravity suit. I also had trouble locking on to Ridley when I was just a shot or two away from finishing him off. I don't know why it happened, I was doing fine before that. I fought him from a distance and just strafed out of the way just as he roared in the air, it worked every time. Plus this game should defenitley not be DA especially when just trying to collect items and exploring.

We should however take this back to the metroid prime thread.

Dural

04-Dec-2002, 08:04

The worst offender of a game getting great scores due to hype would be GT3. The game hasn't changed since GT, you can use the same techniques to win races in GT3 as you could in GT, and the AI is still amazingly bad. I still haven't figured out how this game got the 9.5-10s that it received.

zurich

04-Dec-2002, 08:57

Splinter Cell would get my vote for overhyping and not delivering.... but I guess thats what you get when a system needs a "GOTY" candidate during the holidays :roll:

Ozymandis

04-Dec-2002, 09:32

I certainly agree with Ozy that MP has some serious control problems. Yes, you figure out how to work around them, that simply makes up too much of the difficulty of the game. In a FPS, having less then ideal controls is akin to having lousy cameras in a third person game and it is certainly a valid complaint in MP's case.

Thank you Ben. It's good to hear another poster who agrees... and it's more than a little saddening that (to my knowledge) no reviewers have pointed these issues out.

Ozymandis

04-Dec-2002, 09:48

BTW, I wouldn't talk about MP's controls Ozy. Everybody kept trying to tell you that the game isn't a straight FPS, more of a first-person adventure.. but you didn't listen. Now you think that they should drop the review score a whole notch because "it's a console FPS and requires dual-analog". I agree that I think that there's a small fault with the MP controls (in certain spots) but I'm not exaggerating like you are. (i.e. posting a little sad face and a comment about the controls every f'ing time a Metroid Prime thread comes up.. :D)

Oh, and what Teasy said. Besides that, most sites rate according to console. If MP is one of the best games that GCN ever sees (or GOTY, or whatever) there is no reason not to give it 9.5+ reviews. (which it has gotten, 97.6% average on GR)

I like you Blade. I think you're a good poster here, and at Cloudchaser/Xengen. But your point, about Metroid Prime not being an FPS, it's just too hard to swallow.

Yes, the game is exploration-based.

So what? I'm shooting tons of enemies from a first-person perspective. The game IS an FPS, and as such, the controls are flawed (compared to a modern console FPS like Halo). They worked in Maken X, where 90% of the weapons were melee, but in Metroid Prime I find them problematic.

I'm just not going to swallow that old tired "it's an FPA" line, because having played more than half of the game, it's clearly in the FPS genre.

Edit:
Ah, I see you even agree that the controls can be a problem. Like Ben says, controls in a console FPS are like camera in a platformer. It's a huge sticking point if they don't work well. "Exaggerating"? Hardly.

And as far as the frownies go, I really am disappointed. After Panzer Orta was delayed this game was going to be my saviour. The game has such fantastic atmosphere, that I want to fall in love with it... but I'm certainly not in love with the gameplay. Odd to say that about a Nintendo game. It's usually the opposite- good/great gameplay but outrageously-bad art and atmosphere.

Like I keep saying, I feel that Metroid Prime is still the best game that I've played this year. I'm just not going to make excuses for its faults like most of the rest of you.

Legion

04-Dec-2002, 09:49

This is why i hate reading reviews so much. I'd rather hear about a game then i would want to hear someone's opinion about it.

Phantom Crash 6.x IGN (WTF, did they actually play the game? This title was extremely fun once you got into it).

SMS 9.X IGN (extremely overrated. Played it for a few hours and got bored).

Kakuto Chujin 6.x IGN (A lot better than Mortal Kombat:DA in my opinion. I would have given it an 8.5).

SFA 8.x IGN (A much better game then SMS if you ask me).

Eternal Darkness 8.x - 9.x (just plainly dull).

RE:0 7 (extended play) - 9 (some reviewers have said it was unoriginal. That didn't keep them from giving RE:REhash higher scores now did it? Sounds a bit hypocritical).

UT2003 9+ (a new graphics/physics engine combine with new characters and 1 new gun. Where is the consistancy in reviews?).

Blood Raine 7 - 8 (an absolutely horrible game).

Ozymandis

04-Dec-2002, 09:51

Phantom Crash is a terribly fun game. Needs more arenas, and more part variety/differentiation, but it plays very well. It might be necessary for some Scoobee configurations to customize their controsl for optimal playability though.

Deserves at least an 8.0 I think.

zurich

04-Dec-2002, 09:57

I actually really, really enjoyed MK:DA. 8.5ish is about dead on for it... I didn't enjoy having half of the characters locked out though, and a VF4-esque evade sidestep would have been a welcome part of the weapons fighting (which gave me my Soul Calibur fix btw).

My only major gripe with MK:DA was the "Attack 1, 2, 3, 4" controlls. What was once "punch" in stance A, becomes "low sweep kick" in stance B. Very hard to keep track of, especially when using multiple characters. High/Low Punch/Kick would have been very welcome in keeping some sort of consistency when playing different characters/stances.

Other than that, great game. Would have liked high LOD models for intro/outro scenes (a la VF/Tekken).

edit: oh, and they put so much emphasis on the story, yet don't include a story mode? Little story cutscenes like DoA would have been a very, very, very nice addition.

edit edit: ALSO, there's only one generic male voice and one generic female voice. Not good =/

Despite all this, I did really enjoy the core gameplay though.. I'm just nitpicking!

BenSkywalker

04-Dec-2002, 13:40

I don't know about Johnny and Ozy, but for myself one simple change could have fixed the games controls for me. Move the beam select to the R button and have the C stick for aiming. You could have left everything else alone with the controls, still allowing players to use the lock on when they liked but allowing the option for those of us that wanted it to have dual analog.

Tagrnieth-

Yeah, they're supposed to be somewhat hard the first few times. At least, until you realise it only takes just over one Super Missile to kill one. But really, the very fact that you can't lock on to them all the time IS what makes them hard. Same as having to swap visors constantly against the rock boss (I'm surprised you haven't brought that up yet!).

I'm playing through on Hard, one super missile....no. Two super missiles won't kill them on hard for that matter :) For the rock boss, the reason I didn't have a problem with that was there was a logical reasoning behind swapping visors. I think that they should have had the thermal visor auto shut off once it was overloaded, but that is a minor quibble. I do have a major problem with the final boss and visors(compltely non sensical), but I don't want to talk about it and ruin it for those who aren't there yet ;)

Teasy

04-Dec-2002, 14:55

Let's face facts: Miyamoto screwed up the controls in Metroid Prime. The Halo controls would have been perfect for this game, but Nintendo HAD to be different. The more I play the game, the more apparent this becomes.

The Halo controls would not have been perfect for this game in any way. It would have ruined the game. Tell me, in Metoid Prime what is more important?.. exploring/platforming or shooting? What is the bigger part of Metroid Prime? The answer is obvious, its exploring/platforming, therefore the controls that are best for that sort of thing were used.

If this was yet another, walk a short distance, shoot, walk some more, shoot, walk, shoot, walk shoot ect ect game then yes DA may have been the best choice (although personally I prefer GE's controls in a FPS). But its not one of those games.

BTW I hated Halo's controls, because its a FPS on a pad using two sticks.. I just hate that and find it annoying, but I wouldn't expect reviewers to complain about that because I realise its just something I don't like and most people do like that control scheme

I think a few people here are just going to have to realise that they are in the extreme minoity in disliking MP's controls.

BenSkywalker

04-Dec-2002, 15:05

What is the bigger part of Metroid Prime?

Shooting is, hands down. I'd say roughly 3% of the rooms in MP don't have things you have to shoot.

mkillio

04-Dec-2002, 15:35

Metroid Prime is an Adventure game in a FP perspective, it is based more on exploring and platforming then it is shooting.

And the worst thing about Halos controls were having to use the Analog Stick buttons to Zoom and crouch it was horrible and impossible to move while crouched at the same time.

CaptainHowdy

04-Dec-2002, 15:48

What is the bigger part of Metroid Prime?

Shooting is, hands down. I'd say roughly 3% of the rooms in MP don't have things you have to shoot.

I have not had a single instance where either shooting or jumping has been a problem, I always hit what I want, because I treat it like Metroid, not like Halo, if something is above me, like in the old games, I jump(jumping is a major role, with jumping you CAN aim while moving, in air you have plenty of time to hold the R button and aim for your target).

I finally beat it for the second time last night and got my 100%.. there was not a second that I wished the controls were different, it took a grand total of 15 minutes before I had completely mastered that part of the game.

Blade

04-Dec-2002, 15:48

Ozy: It's not a straight FPS. This is no Serious Sam. I'll agree that the controls aren't perfect (IMO, they nearly are.. and few games have more polished controls anyway) and I'll even agree that it's part of the FPS genre.

I just can't agree that it's part of the same FPS sub-genre that Doom, Quake, and Unreal are in. Wouldn't you agree?

I mean, c'mon.. show me another FPS like Metroid Prime. There is none. It's in its own sub-genre, honestly! Yes, System Shock and Half-Life among others come close in some regards.. but my argument holds up. This is not a PC FPS, just as Miyamoto stated in that clumsy EGM interview of his. He didn't know what he was saying, but the man was correct. It's too different to be a straight FPS, and 95% of professional game reviewers would agree with me. :)

Your lack of love with the gameplay is your problem, not the game's. I had just played through Super Metroid to get "primed" for MP.. and MP reminded me heavily of the 1994 classic gameplay-wise. If you didn't enjoy SM, then I'm not surprised that you have qualms with MP because they're rather similar. All Metroid games are like this. BTW, how is MP your GOTY when you're criticizing the game and its gameplay so much? I thought you were a big JSRF fan, that game came out this year and you never seem to complain about that one.. :wink:

Teasy:

I think a few people here are just going to have to realise that they are in the extreme minoity in disliking MP's controls.

No matter how good something is, there's always going to be somebody who dislikes it. That's the way of the world.

Ben:

If you had the option to use a modify button to switch to dual analog it would be no problem whatsoever.

Which would require an overhaul of the game's controls. Which button could do it? They're all used up. Maybe Z? Move the map to the Start screen? That would be annoying. With that scheme set, you'd probably complain about having to switch between modes because you can't change visors/beams without the C-Stick. It would be cumbersome, right?

Move the beam select to the R button and have the C stick for aiming

Okay, and what is "shoot"? The A button? I'm guessing that you meant to say that R = shoot and A = beam select, because you wouldn't be able to aim the C-Stick and shoot using A at the same time. Besides that, R is a digital-click trigger.. it might be a little bit more annoying to shoot beams using it than it would be on, say, the Xbox controller.

All in all, yes.. you could work around your proposed (virtually non-existant) "faults" in the Metroid Prime control scheme, but only a handful of people would use the 2nd control scheme. Like Teasy said, you guys are in the minority.. and it sux0rs that you have to suffer on one of the best games in years while others (like myself) consider the controls a cakewalk.

Teasy

04-Dec-2002, 15:55

Shooting is, hands down. I'd say roughly 3% of the rooms in MP don't have things you have to shoot.

Yeah you have to shoot allot, but that doesn't make shooting the biggest part of the game. You have to shoot a door to open it, but that doesn't require pinpoint shooting nor make shooting the focus of the game. The emphasis in Metroid Prime is exploration.

Ozy

You say you think its rubbish when people call this game a FPA.. why?, explain you reasoning. You think that because just about every first person game before it was focused on shooting (FPS) that means every game in first person perspective has to be a FPS?

If a game is more about exploration/adventure then shooting (which MP certainly is) then of course it can be a FPA. The very control system your complaining about is obviously made to cater for exploration... don't you think that's a clue to the games focus? Do you really think they would have made the controls like that if they were making a FPS?

Johnny Awesome

04-Dec-2002, 16:02

Blade

04-Dec-2002, 16:11

Johnny: Oh, just go back to bed. The only thing I agree with in your entire message is that the SMS swimming controls suck.

Well, in comparison to the near-perfect SM64 controls anyway. I fail to see their reason to have changed them. :-?

CaptainHowdy

04-Dec-2002, 16:13

It's absolutely hysterical to hear Nintendo fans make excuses for the poor control scheme in Metroid Prime. The Halo scheme rules. Period. Ben's ideas are good too, but the point is that it's pretty sad if Ben can come up with a better system off the top of his head than Nintendo did after months of development.

My prediction is that this game will not affect future game development much at all. The same isn't true for Splinter Cell, which will undoubtly change the Stealth/Action genre forever, although I think Metroid is the better game of the two by a slight margin.

PS: It kind of reminds me of how they changed the excellent swimming controls in Mario64 to the horrible swimming controls in SMS, or how they decided to go Celda. Nintendo is losing their focus.

whats funnier, is stupid cxxxs(who probally havent even played it) comparing it to Halo..
noone is making excuses, I dont have to excuse a control
scheme I am in love with.
if you had Halos controls scheme in Metroid, you would be dead in a pool of Molten Lava in seconds.

when Halo finds its way back to the top ten list(much less the number 2 game of all time) on Gamerankings..com talk to me.

marconelly!

04-Dec-2002, 16:15

The same isn't true for Splinter Cell, which will undoubtly change the Stealth/Action genre foreverIf you are thinking about the more realistic approach SC employs, constant usage of shadows and light meter - it's been around ever since the Thief games. MGS games never went that route simply because they opt for a much faster and more agressive gameplay, trading the realism for it.

BenSkywalker

04-Dec-2002, 16:18

Okay, and what is "shoot"? The A button? I'm guessing that you meant to say that R = shoot and A = beam select, because you wouldn't be able to aim the C-Stick and shoot using A at the same time. Besides that, R is a digital-click trigger.. it might be a little bit more annoying to shoot beams using it than it would be on, say, the Xbox controller.

Sure, swap A and R in my scenario. Have you ever used a GameCube or XBox controller as a curiosity btw? ;) The GC has an analog R button with a click, the XB has an analog R button without a click. Not exactly a startling difference between the two ;)

As far as disliking the controls-

"The excellent lock on tracking system and otherwise great button layout minimizes most problems but now and then a particularly stressful fight or steep platform path will make you wish Nintendo had implemented the dual stick setup, or at least included the option. to be fair, the scheme here does work better for simple jumping maneuvers, but a button to lock auto centering on and off would have given all the benefits, and much less of the finger fatugue, of constantly holding in the shoulder buttons"

EGM- Issue 162 Page 186- Review score 10/10/10(any typos are likely mine, I just copied it out of the magazine).

You know, coming from a group that really trashed the game :)

I have not had a single instance where either shooting or jumping has been a problem, I always hit what I want, because I treat it like Metroid, not like Halo, if something is above me, like in the old games, I jump(jumping is a major role, with jumping you CAN aim while moving, in air you have plenty of time to hold the R button and aim for your target).

If they wanted me to play it like a third person game they should have made it third person in the first place.

And the worst thing about Halos controls were having to use the Analog Stick buttons to Zoom and crouch it was horrible and impossible to move while crouched at the same time.

It was a major pain on the default controller, not so bad on S(though it still was certainly lacking, at least it was tollerable). A bigger gripe from me was getting knocked out of zoom mode whenever you got hit. I'm not entirely sure how that relates to Metroid though......? Because Halo has some lousy control elements Metroid's become acceptable...? Doesn't work like that for me. I have every intention of purchasing Halo for the PC entirely due to superior control mechanics and no other reason. If I could pay another $10 for a version of Metroid with the control problems fixed I would($50 if they gave me a KB/Mouse combo :) ).

Yeah you have to shoot allot, but that doesn't make shooting the biggest part of the game. You have to shoot a door to open it, but that doesn't require pinpoint shooting nor make shooting the focus of the game. The emphasis in Metroid Prime is exploration.

Play through the game and get back to me on that one. I know you have played enough FPSs that you'll see what MP is about. Yes, there is exploration, not unlike a lot of other FPSs. It is a shooter, an extremely well done(except for the controls) shooter. With fixed controls I think it is hands down GOTY for any system. As it stands, I'm leaning towards Mafia at this point in time with ED and MP following up a bit behind.

Blade

04-Dec-2002, 16:31

Ben: The digital-click is what might make it tougher, that's the point. Analog is fine. :) BTW, I own both consoles. (no PS2)

What you want to do with the controls would require more buttons.

Your problem is with the controller, not so much the game I'd say. But whatever, I personally still find the controls nearly perfect for the game (after playing 28+ hours) so I'm never going to be able to agree with ya, Ben. No opinion is universal. :)

BoddoZerg

04-Dec-2002, 16:45

I wish someone would just come out and make a keyboard/mouse style controller for Consoles. I mean, yes Halo control scheme and yes Metroid control scheme, but why bother trying to make dual-joystick combos do something God never intended for them to do? Mouse/Keyboard is the supreme FPS controller and always will be.

They don't need to have a full sized keyboard, just something with buttons in the same relative position as WASD, shift, and spacebar. But the mouse is definitely a must.

Then again, if they make that, they'll probably charge $200 for it and it will only be usable for one mediocre game. Bah.

Gollum

04-Dec-2002, 16:50

A friend of mine has been using a trackball for ages instead of a mouse, he can play any shooter with it just like I do with a mouse that way. A trackball wouldn't be hard to integrate into a controler at all IMHO and offer many advantages for first person perspective games...

CaptainHowdy

04-Dec-2002, 17:52

actually Ben, they did mean for you to play it like a third person game, just because you refuse to do so because of its perspective, doesnt mean its thier fault, its yours for not accepting what it is.
third person would have both Obstructed your view, which would make the adventure part not work, cant find what you cant see because Samus's big shoulder pads are in the way, and also its first to avoid bad camera problems that plague 3d adventure games, if you want to play Halo, play Halo, if your going to play Metroid, play Metroid, just because you cant get out of Halo mode while playing it, doesnt mean they messed it up, it just means you cant adapt to new game styles.

Blade

04-Dec-2002, 17:55

What CaptainHowdy said.

If you go in with a "I'm going to be playing a Halo-style FPS" mentality, you're setting yourself up for disappointment.

It's almost like going into Zelda expecting a Final Fantasy-style game.

Johnny Awesome

04-Dec-2002, 18:10

Blade

04-Dec-2002, 18:55

I bet if you somehow reconfigured the MP controls to make them like your choice of Halo controls..

You'd be having a good deal of trouble in the game. You don't know if Halo's control style would fit MP because

A. You've never played MP with the Halo control scheme.

B. You can't use Halo's controller with Metroid Prime.

C. Metroid Prime was designed around the strengths and weaknesses of the GCN controller, not the Xbox one.

Your argument is full of holes.

CaptainHowdy

04-Dec-2002, 19:16

All I wanted was good controls. I got rubbish. Sorry guys, but my time with Metroid Prime (which I own) has convinced me that Nintendo screwed up the controls. Halo's controls were better for Halo AND sadly enough, better (though not ideal) for Metroid Prime. Inexcusable.

Well, your opinion is the minority, and again with Halo, its not Halo,
no matter how much you want to argue, its not a FPS, its a platformer/adventure..being first person means nothing, it controls just
like any other platformer, except its pretty, has more action, and there are
no horrible camera angles, people want better camera control in platformers, and thats what metroid gave them , cant get better than complete control..

Ozymandis

04-Dec-2002, 19:52

Blade:

Why isn't Jet Set Radio Future my GotY?

Because I simply like Metroid Prime more, that's why.

JSRF isn't a flawless game either. The camera is functional; it's good enough, but it makes the player really need to anticipate the level design to work around its few shortcomings.

For me, the flaws in MP, while significant, aren't enough to ruin the things that Retro implemented flawlessly. I'm also a sucker for extremely atmospheric, otherworldy games (my personal favourite game last gen was Panzer Dragoon Saga, and so far this gen it's still ICO) and Metroid has that down pat. Not to mention that I liked Super Metroid on SNES 8)

The Halo controls would not have been perfect for this game in any way. It would have ruined the game. Tell me, in Metoid Prime what is more important?.. exploring/platforming or shooting? What is the bigger part of Metroid Prime? The answer is obvious, its exploring/platforming, therefore the controls that are best for that sort of thing were used.

It doesn't matter what the focus is. Dual analog is better for exploration as well. When you have to stop every time you want to look around, that doesn't make for a very smooth-playing game.

I don't know about Johnny and Ozy, but for myself one simple change could have fixed the games controls for me. Move the beam select to the R button and have the C stick for aiming. You could have left everything else alone with the controls, still allowing players to use the lock on when they liked but allowing the option for those of us that wanted it to have dual analog.

I had my own idea about the controls.

Make the C stick for aiming, as you suggested.

But instead of putting beam select on "R", use the digital pad, and use "R" as a sort of modifier key, ala PSO. When you hold "R", it will change the function of the d-pad, from beam select->visor select. Hell, you could even let the player choose which one he wants defaulted.

Keep the lock-on, but make it optional. It comes in handy sometimes. It would be a lot stronger (IMO) if you could manipulate the stick at all times, and then the lock-on would be... gravy :D

Johnny Awesome

04-Dec-2002, 19:59

I'm not concerned with the majority opinion, but I know I'm right. After I complete the game I'll post an alternative control scheme that is CLEARLY better than what Nintendo cobbled together. You guys are just making excuses. FPA? LOL! :roll:

Blade

04-Dec-2002, 20:24

Ozy: What's the benefit of using dual-analog, in your mind?

Is it for fighting, for exploration.. or for both? Frankly, exploration doesn't require constant movement.. and for fighting.. what's "shoot" in your proposed setup? Th' L-Trigger is used up as "lock-on" (absolutely required for Metroid Prime) and R is your modifier. Z is the map, but it's out of the way.. not much of an option. The A button (or any of the face buttons) can't be your shooting button unless you intend to stop looking around (i.e. taking your thumb off the C-Stick) to shoot, which of course virtually defeats the purpose of using dual-analog.

Which brings me to my next question: Is this argument some sort of early April Fools joke? :roll:

Tagrineth

04-Dec-2002, 20:29

The reason it's considered FPA rather than FPS is REALLY obscenely simple.

In a game like HALO, you really can't afford to skip fighting enemies. They'll plug you from behind repeatedly. You can do it if you rush like a madman, but you'll still take heavy fire, and you'll probably end up dying often.

In Metroid Prime, OTOH, most rooms you can definitely skip all the enemies, just run straight through. :) And you don't have to worry about dying (most of the time).

HALO levels are generally VERY linear, there's one way through and you have to take it, otherwise you won't get anything done.

Metroid Prime allows you much more freedom, many (not all, or most, but many) rooms have multiple paths, and clever minipuzzles which reward you with things like missile expansions. Also there are a good few rooms with multiple exits... though there should've been more of those. Oh well.

Then there's another thing... in HALO you have the same armour and general weapons capacity ALL THE TIME. In theory you're no stronger at the end than you were at the start - not counting collectible weapons which are scripted to be stronger at the end.

Metroid Prime starts you off obscenely weak, and as you progress you get stronger weapons, stronger armour, special attacks (beam combos), more and more missiles...

Oh, and about "When you have to stop every time you want to look around, that doesn't make for a very smooth-playing game. " By the time you're looking around, dual-analogue would be meaningless. Stopping to look around breaks the flow no matter how the game's controls work, and while moving you probably won't notice quite as much detail as while holding still.

And the idea behind the crosspad and C-stick's default controls, is you can switch from any weapon to any other weapon and any visor to any other visor instantly, without having to cycle through a list... and you can do both at the same time with near zero effort.

Ozymandis

04-Dec-2002, 20:42