How's this for an idea? [Archive]

rajeev84

30-Oct-2005, 23:58

Given the fact that Sony is shipping some form of Linux on the PS3 harddrive, what's stopping them from entering the PC buisness (aside from the viao) with the PS3.

If Sony were to realease a PS3 in the form of a PC. That is, with a regular 3.5'' HD, and all other PC essentails, i'd defininetly want that.

Further, it'd be attacking MS where it hurts. Along with providing a huge expansion in the linux market.

Say Sony sells a PS3 PC with more ram, sizable HD, Widescreen LCD monitar (1080P would be nice :) ), maybe even a removable RSX video card, and possible even dual cells......they can probally sell that for $1500 to $2000......i know i'd want that.

However, this system should have a compatability PS3 mode, where the extra ram etc does not affect or improve gameplay (although i'm sure devs could even make patches to improve things a bit).

Would you buy that if song made that as a home product?

Johnny Awesome

31-Oct-2005, 00:02

It could have value to some people, but a low memory PC that doesn't play PC games or use Windows productivity software isn't likely to make much of a dent in MS' core business.

hey69

31-Oct-2005, 00:02

and why not, what if they bought the AMIGA name to badge their ps3PC machines......

i love those whatif threads... :D

BlueTsunami

31-Oct-2005, 00:03

Guden Oden

31-Oct-2005, 00:10

We don't even know for sure the PS3 HDD (if there is such a product) will ship with linux on it or not. Besides, even if it did, people here are assuming Sony will take it on the chin profit-wise when selling PS3, since uneducated estimates predict the console hardware will be very expensive to produce. Selling lots of consoles to be used as computers rather than game-playing devices (which would bring in profits in the form of software royalties and such), would under such a scenario be doubly bad for Sony because A: they'd be subsidizing hardware that will never bring them any income since it'll be used as a computer rather than a gaming system, and B: the subsidized hardware they sold was NOT sold to someone that would buy games for it and bring them income.

Personally tho, I hope either Sony or MS allows or releases themselves, a real OS for their machines. These things will have very very powerful processors in them both for running program code and drawing graphics, particulary x360 would be suitable for use as a desktop system, with the slight drawback of no digital video output.

Laa-Yosh

31-Oct-2005, 00:13

Lack of out of order execution would slow it down for the mainstream tasks of the typical PC. Sure it could encode video in HD and whatever, but that's not the most important thing for the customers.

And the real hindrance is economics. Sony is ready to sell the PS3 at a loss because they make it back on the software, the games. Selling a Linux based system would mean that there's no profit on software, yet they have to provide customer support as well. Not to mention that Linux has totally failed to get a hold of the mass market because it's still damn too complicated for the average user. And Sony certainly wouldn't sell it with Windows, nor would Apple port OSX onto it.

All in all it'd cost far too much, compared to a regular PC, and probably wouldn't worth the investment...

pegisys

31-Oct-2005, 00:20

I think it would fail, I don't know many people that would used linux on a closed platform with no upgrade ability

but if they started selling cell cpu's and motherboards and made them compatible with current pc hardware I would get one

Carl B

31-Oct-2005, 00:22

It's come up a couple of times in various threads, and the notion of PS3 as an Amiga I think is a powerful one. I don't think they need to position it as a PC per se, just as a machine that for the average home user can take care of their normal computing needs.

OOE vs IOE shouldn't be too big of a deal for the programs most people run as long as the build isn't too slow - and for people who would otherwise consider a budget PC for email/Internet and such, it would make a strong case for itself. Afterall the tasks that nowadays require 'speed' are none other than the imaging tasks that Cell excels at anyway.

We'll just need to see what happens. Talk is of the HDD shipping with Linux, and frankly I'll be all over it if that pans out.

Not sure if Sony will ever push it on the mainstream though, or take a different marketing angle with it.

Guden Oden

31-Oct-2005, 00:23

Lack of out of order execution would slow it down for the mainstream tasks of the typical PC.
Slow down as compared to what, tho? Computers already spend most of their time waiting for their human operators.
Sure it could encode video in HD and whatever, but that's not the most important thing for the customers.
What is that then? Run office? Surf the web? Word process? Nextgen consoles would handle such tasks with one hand tied behind their backs, particulary x360 with its larger main memory and triple general processor cores. After all, memory is the biggest (technical) obstacle I'd say, not their in-order processors.

BlueTsunami

31-Oct-2005, 00:29

Well if Sony DOES have Linux pre installed with the PS3 then thats pretty much their effort to put a PC on the market. The Linux OS itself is meant to be a dev environment right? So they could basically be killing to birds with one stone. Make that Dev environment but make little tweaks to it that would make it more user friendly. Pre Install common apps and its ready to go. Have it support what ever media (Video, Pictures, Music) and you've got a home computer. The only time I can see that Windows would trump it is if you needed to run Maya, 3DS Max, Photoshop or any commercial app.

As far as a generic PC. Sony with Linux should be more than capable.

Powderkeg

31-Oct-2005, 00:43

Given the fact that Sony is shipping some form of Linux on the PS3 harddrive, what's stopping them from entering the PC buisness (aside from the viao) with the PS3.

If Sony were to realease a PS3 in the form of a PC. That is, with a regular 3.5'' HD, and all other PC essentails, i'd defininetly want that.

Further, it'd be attacking MS where it hurts. Along with providing a huge expansion in the linux market.

And precisely how much PC type software is on store shelves that would run on it?

No one would buy it if there was nothing that worked on it. The reason why most people buy PC's instead of MACs is the amount of compatible software for it, and the PS3 has absolutely no PC type software that is compatible for it.

BlueTsunami

31-Oct-2005, 00:47

And precisely how much PC type software is on store shelves that would run on it?

No one would buy it if there was nothing that worked on it. The reason why most people buy PC's instead of MACs is the amount of compatible software for it, and the PS3 has absolutely no PC type software that is compatible for it.

If that was the case then why do people even use Linux? The point was made that people only need a web browser, text editor and being able to play different Media. FireFox (or Mozilla) Open Office and a Linux Media player that can play AVI files (and many others). Also, their FREE. Its not like Linux is a vast desert of non existent applications.

The only problem is getting these things ported over.

Alpha_Spartan

31-Oct-2005, 00:49

Cell would make an awesome PC CPU. Just ask Steve Jobs...

randycat99

31-Oct-2005, 00:51

This theory has long since been debunked. That you bring it up again simply to get a jab, tells clearly of your agenda here. :roll:

randycat99

31-Oct-2005, 00:57

The reason why most people buy PC's instead of MACs is the amount of compatible software for it, and the PS3 has absolutely no PC type software that is compatible for it.

W/o a doubt some have to buy out of "compatibility". By large, the overlying component is inertia. For the things that most home users do on a computer, the software that exists on an Mac will quite adequately cover the software that they use on the PC. Arguably, it would be better designed sofware, as well. The only thing that really stops a switchover is simple inertia and uncertainty over something different.

BlueTsunami

31-Oct-2005, 01:05

Cell would make an awesome PC CPU. Just ask Steve Jobs...

It seems like you don't know why Steve Jobs didn't want the CELL for Apple. Nice jab though, can't wait for the left hook.

dukmahsik

31-Oct-2005, 01:15

It seems like you don't know why Steve Jobs didn't want the CELL for Apple. Nice jab though, can't wait for the left hook.

because it wasn't up to snuff, regardless he didn't want it

PARANOiA

31-Oct-2005, 01:18

BlueTsunami

31-Oct-2005, 01:19

because it wasn't up to snuff, regardless he didn't want it

Porting over to Cell was going to be a pain in the Ass. They opted for Pentium based OS because they would be able to get it out at a reasonable time frame, where releasing for CELL would take years. Also, the hardware isn't there.

Carl B

31-Oct-2005, 01:38

A serious question here...

Sony's financials on the PS3 vs Xbox have been raised as not being 100% stable, correct? Do you really think Sony could afford to attack MS - arguably the world's richest company - on their home turf? No way in hell. Sony can't afford to, otherwise MS would knock them on their ass in about ten minutes.

Now, if Google made an OS built for the PS3, I would believe it...

How would bundling Linux with the HD warrant any sort of 'attack' or expenditure of resources on Sony's part though? The fact that it might eat into the home PC market is purely tangentental. Microsoft's biggest threat will always be companies that offer a free alternative. They've staved off such threats fairly well thus far, but as you mentioned, Google is giving them a run for their money in search. I hardly see what a counterattack on MS' part could look like.

PARANOiA

31-Oct-2005, 01:53

How would bundling Linux with the HD warrant any sort of 'attack' or expenditure of resources on Sony's part though? The fact that it might eat into the home PC market is purely tangentental. Microsoft's biggest threat will always be companies that offer a free alternative. They've staved off such threats fairly well thus far, but as you mentioned, Google is giving them a run for their money in search. I hardly see what a counterattack on MS' part could look like.

Read the first post, xbdestroya. I responded to the thread, not about Linux on PS3.

If Sony were to realease a PS3 in the form of a PC. That is, with a regular 3.5'' HD, and all other PC essentails, i'd defininetly want that.

Further, it'd be attacking MS where it hurts. Along with providing a huge expansion in the linux market.

Make sense?

ims

31-Oct-2005, 01:54

Carl B

31-Oct-2005, 01:57

Hey sorry Paranoia, it's hard when you just post in the middle of the thread without context. ;)

Yes I agree with you though, Sony plunging the PS3 directly into the PC market doesn't make much sense. It has to come from a different angle if it is to have any impact. I do think the Amiga-style angle is a good one though, whatever the impact.

BlueTsunami

31-Oct-2005, 02:04

Why on earth would Mr Joe Public want a Ps3Pc when they can get a cheap as chips budget pc, that'll run all the things they want it to run off the shelves.

Mr Joe Public wouldnt give 2 hoots about it, while at the same time Sony would be deeper into the debt that they already are in.

The PS2 over its lifetime is nearing 100 Million sales. Now you figure that many sales of the PS3 (over its lifetime) or anything near it and a large chunk with the HDD pre loaded with Linux. That could be Sonys way of breaking into the Market. It would be at no cost to Sony since pre loading Linux should be free.

one

31-Oct-2005, 02:06

And precisely how much PC type software is on store shelves that would run on it?

No one would buy it if there was nothing that worked on it. The reason why most people buy PC's instead of MACs is the amount of compatible software for it, and the PS3 has absolutely no PC type software that is compatible for it.Why? Linux has hella lot of Open Source freeware. Open Office, Firefox, Thunderbird, Gimp, Blender, all for free off the net if they have PPC-Linux ports. You can even run MS Office on WINE. For games, if it can run PS3 games it's more than enough I suppose.

PS3 PC will be an Amiga-like machine for enthusiasts who are ready to pay for fun, no corporate manager will purchse PS3 for his/her office.

SubD

31-Oct-2005, 02:09

Cell would make an awesome PC CPU. Just ask Steve Jobs...

Why would anyone care what Steve Jobs has to say?

He's the guy who's company accounted for 4% of IBM's chip business and tried to play hardball over a mobile 970 design and pricing and got his ass dumped onto the Intel processor roadmap train-wreck. Cell is no longer an option for Apple. No matter how long they have been setting up their OS to leverage future chips with massive parallel computational power - like, oh, Cell..

jvd

31-Oct-2005, 02:25

cell in pcs wont happen . General purpose cpus will continue to reign

rajeev84

31-Oct-2005, 03:01

The idea was to have a PC that can play PS3 games. The trouble with most PC's nowadays isn't there ability to run software. Hell i'm running all my engineering software on a Athlon XP 1800. It's games that gives my PC problems.

All the PS3PC needs to be is just a PS3 with a big hard drive, obviously more ram, and just a monitor, keybourd and mouse. Nothing else and nothing more. Since it already runs linux, there'd be more than enough software.

I think the main problem comes into play when you consider customer support. Virus and people messing up their system will definitly arise. Additionally one can never underestimate the power of videogames pirates that will have a field day over any system like this.

But the basic idea is just to have a PS3/PC in your bedroom. You can surf the net, use star office, mozilla, winamp etc......that's everything most people do.

Sony should be able to sell a system like this with an included widecsreen HD LCD for $999 easily.

It'd make a very interesting product.

Carl B

31-Oct-2005, 03:12

Rajeev as you can perhaps tell, I'm a big believer in the PS3's potential in the PC app space, and really feel that Linux on PS3 could catch on at a certain level.

But what you're talking about is just too extreme. To go with an integrated LCD (a la iMac) and rework the motherboard just to allow for more XDR RAM to be placed on it is asking for a money hole to be dug.

The PS3 will take the HD seperate, has *enough* RAM, will accept usb (and possibly bluetooth) keyboards and mice, will display on monitors, and will display on HD TVs. Why create a standalone machne at much higher cost, that has marginal added utility?

And then pitch it to consumers in the computer aisles of stores? That smells like disaster to me.

As a consumer electronics device that can also function as your basic PC, PS3 has a lot of appeal.

As a PC that costs about what some mid-range PCs do, yet has an entirely different set of software support than the average PC shopper is used to, PS3 is really out of it's element. Playing PS3 games is really neither here nor there, and kind of leads us back to the first (and natural) option; a CE console that can fill in on a certain level as a PC if given the right peripherals.

Hardknock

31-Oct-2005, 03:34

Sony and the Playstation brand are a very real threat to Windows. It's true there won't be as many applications for it compared to a Windows PC. But if their's one company that is not afraid to set new standards it's Sony. And with the advent of more HDTVs being sold that opens up an entirely new market. Alot of people would prefer being able to surf the net and do other general computer tasks from the couch. And I think it would be much more practical if they could simply get this functionality out of their already purchased PS3 than to try and connected a regular PC to the T.V. If marketed right I think this could be pretty huge. MS sees the threat aswell, otherwise there wouldn't have even been an Xbox. We need more competition in the OS market, so I support this.

jvd

31-Oct-2005, 03:40

Powderkeg

31-Oct-2005, 03:42

If that was the case then why do people even use Linux? The point was made that people only need a web browser, text editor and being able to play different Media. FireFox (or Mozilla) Open Office and a Linux Media player that can play AVI files (and many others). Also, their FREE. Its not like Linux is a vast desert of non existent applications.

The only problem is getting these things ported over.

There are some very good Linux programs out there, but Linux isn't like Windows. It's not a "Plug and Play" type OS, and the PC software isn't written to work on the PS3 versions kernel. You would have to port Linux software to PS3 Linux software, but before that happens you'll have to prove there is even a demand for it.

There is a reason Apple is so far behind the PC, and there is even less of a demand for an unproven Linux based PS3 than there is a MAC.

BlueTsunami

31-Oct-2005, 03:46

sony should worry about keeping the console market . Since they are being attacked by ms there . I don't see them making many inroads in the pc market with the cell. People aren't going to abandon software investments and hardware investments because of a "wonder" chip that has yet to prove itself .

If cell was a threat to intel's userbase you would see them do something to brace for the impact. But they are doing nothing at the moment .

To be underestimated is a common thing.

Of course CELL will not come in and turn the PC market on its head but the fact that a device is coming out that plays PS3 games that are comparable or even better then current top of the line PC games, where you can browse the net, edit texts, listen/watch various media and edit images (everything a regular user would do on his own Windows XP PC) should be deemed a threat. Doing all this on your 61" HDTV makes it all so much sweeter.

I agree that its still yet to prove itself. Also, how was the PS2s Linux Dev kit? How was the OS itself?

There is a reason Apple is so far behind the PC, and there is even less of a demand for an unproven Linux based PS3 than there is a MAC.

I would go as far as to say the Linux userbase is much larger than the Mac userbase. Linux is freely available on the net (for free, as I know you know already). Mac you need not only the hardware but you have to buy the OS itself. With that said, theres a HUGE programming base for Linux and I believe that PS3 (hopefully if its open) will probably get embraced by this base.

There are some very good Linux programs out there, but Linux isn't like Windows. It's not a "Plug and Play" type OS, and the PC software isn't written to work on the PS3 versions kernel. You would have to port Linux software to PS3 Linux software, but before that happens you'll have to prove there is even a demand for it.

There is a reason Apple is so far behind the PC, and there is even less of a demand for an unproven Linux based PS3 than there is a MAC.

As one stated, theres already software thats been ported over for PPC based systems. With that, it would just have to be optimised to be used on a CELL system. Also, I don't know what you mean about "Plug and Play"? Do you mean Software installation? If so, Linux has something called "Packages", think of them like executable installers for Windows. It basically installs the software with as little user input as possible. Some packages resolve dependencies (on libraries) by connecting to the net and downloading and installing what you need.

Linux has this bad stigma that its hard to use and theres no software for it. Its actually quite the opposite.

jvd

31-Oct-2005, 03:54

To be underestimated is a common thing.

Of course CELL will not come in and turn the PC market on its head but the fact that a device is coming out that plays PS3 games that are comparable or even better then current top of the line PC games, where you can browse the net, edit texts, listen/watch various media and edit images (everything a regular user would do on his own Windows XP PC) should be deemed a threat. Doing all this on your 61" HDTV makes it all so much sweeter.

I agree that its still yet to prove itself. Also, how was the PS2s Linux Dev kit? How was the OS itself?

Your under estimating what people are using thier pcs for now . Once it was just browsing the web but more and more they are using it for multimedia . Editing pictures , editing video , creating content of thier own .

As for ps3 games comparing to pc games. That may be true for the first year. But in that year once again pc hardware will advance just as it allways does and will leave ps3 graphics behind .

Not to mention we don't know how well a ps3 will handle going from a game to browsing the web to going to a game to editing a video or even multi tasking video and browsing at the same time .

These are things a normal pc user worrys about . These are things that is unknown how well the cell chip will handle it .

Not to mention people throwing out lots of software they invested in for this new platform .

BlueTsunami

31-Oct-2005, 04:06

Your under estimating what people are using thier pcs for now . Once it was just browsing the web but more and more they are using it for multimedia . Editing pictures , editing video , creating content of thier own .

Theres software under Linux for everything you've just stated.

Editing Pictures - Gimp

Editing Video - Cinelerra

Linux itself has basically almost a mirror images of software that is commonly used on the PC front. This is probably because the programmers that needed this stuff on Windows decided to create programs that would be comparable to those that are on Windows.

As for ps3 games comparing to pc games. That may be true for the first year. But in that year once again pc hardware will advance just as it allways does and will leave ps3 graphics behind .

Yes, I agree with you on this but you have to ask yourself how many general PC gamers have 6600 (and comparable ATI card) and above at this point in time? Also, look at the Xbox and Farcry, DoomIII and Half Life 2. How do they look and compare to their PC counterparts? Thats from 3 year old hardware compared to current PCs.

Not to mention we don't know how well a ps3 will handle going from a game to browsing the web to going to a game to editing a video or even multi tasking video and browsing at the same time .

These are things a normal pc user worrys about . These are things that is unknown how well the cell chip will handle it .

I can't argue with you here because I don't know myself but not everyting should be Doom and Gloom (which you tend to bring up alot). Its as if you play devils advocate to everything CELL.

Not to mention people throwing out lots of software they invested in for this new platform .

Yes, but with Linux they wouldn't have to re buy all that software they invested in. Also...using the PS3 as a PC doesn't mean they completley abandon XP and there former PC....its not like it vanishes...

PARANOiA

31-Oct-2005, 04:16

Another serious question... what is it about the PS3 that makes you think people will use it for Linux (photo editing, video editing, web surfing etc) rather than their PC for Linux?

Most people with a PC choose not to use Linux, and prefer Windows. Two reasons I think they may use it on PS3 for anything more than minor use is:

They don't have a PC at all
They don't have a choice about using Windows on the PS3, so they'll try it and like it.I can't see myself using my PS3 over my PC to do any additional functions, in the same way I don't use my Xbox, which also has Linux on it.

jvd

31-Oct-2005, 04:17

Theres software under Linux for everything you've just stated.

Editing Pictures - Gimp

Editing Video - Cinelerra

Linux itself has basically almost a mirror images of software that is commonly used on the PC front. This is probably because the programmers that needed this stuff on Windows decided to create programs that would be comparable to those that are on Windows.

Yup , how many window users own these programs .

Right basicly none . Which requires reinvesting in software . NOt only to learn linux but to learn the new apps and not only that but then a money issue with the reinvestment

Yes, I agree with you on this but you have to ask yourself how many general PC gamers have 6600 (and comparable ATI card) and above at this point in time? Also, look at the Xbox and Farcry, DoomIII and Half Life 2. How do they look and compare to their PC counterparts? Thats from 3 year old hardware compared to current PCs.
as with everything people upgrade. A person who is looking to play games will upgrade the pc when they need too . 6600 cards are now sub 100$ when the ps3 launches you will most likely be able to get 6800 non ultra performance for 100$ or less .

As for those games there is a huge diffrence if you've ever spent time with the games in question .

can't argue with you here because I don't know myself but not everyting should be Doom and Gloom (which you tend to bring up alot). Its as if you play devils advocate to everything CELL.

And what do you do ? Your a cheerleader for cell in this thread. People are giving the positives . Why shouldn't someone give the negatives .

Not only that but 512 megs of ram is nothing for someone who is going edit video . HOwever that is the hardcap for the ps3 at this time . So even if the cell itself is grat for video editing its going to be handicaped by ram .

Also storage is a problem. In a normal pc you can hook up 3 harrives. U can get a 8meg cache 7500 rpm drive for about 120$ now not only that but the 4th drive can be a rewritable dvd drive / bluray drive / hd-dvd drive .

That is another advantage .

You would have to go to usb for these things on the ps3 which are more expensive and most of the time lower

Yes, but with Linux they wouldn't have to re buy all that software they invested in. Also...using the PS3 as a PC doesn't mean they completley abandon XP and there former PC....its not like it vanishes... Sure they will . If you buy a pc u get xp with office. Office isn't going to work on linux . You can run that emulation program but that will only cause slow downs .

THe average pc user doesn't have linux software or experiance with it .

This is the problem apple has . Windows has such a large installed base that virtualy all software is made for windows and so many people have invested in programs that run on that platform that it will be extremely hard for them to switch over .

Just think in 2007 what pcs will be like . Right now most 500$ pcs come with 512 megs of ram. In 2007 i would expect that minimum to be 1 gig at that price point . perhaps even 2gigs at the 1.5k mark along with writable drives and large hardrives .

The ps3 is a closed platform and will allways be limited by that as at some point the requirements will only increase . You don't believe it but if u get on a fast pc like a athlon 64 4000+ and comapre it to a athlon 64 3000+ you can see a huge diffrence in the way apps start up and in multitasking . The cell will be left behind quickly as dual cores move to the low end and tri and quad cores along with new cores come along .

BlueTsunami

31-Oct-2005, 04:29

Gah, this is the problem with arguing on a bunch of different point..it then branches into an indeffinate amount of other points that have to be given answers. I'll just say that we should agree to disagree. Linux to me can meet the demands a normal user would need (In my opinion).

jvd

31-Oct-2005, 04:43

Carl B

31-Oct-2005, 05:08

it could , however it will cost more than most are willing to spend both time and money wise

What's the money-wise aspect of it?

On the side, the point is not that PS3 is going to take on the PC world, the point is that with a viable alternative that is free, it's not outlandish to think that the number of individuals using their consoles for basic PC functions will go from zero to something other than zero. Is that so crazy?

If the build has a good GUI, and offers basic functionality - I think we're good to go.

If PSP can have the homebrew community built around it that it does, for god's sake Linux on Cell should be able to go beyond that by an order of magnitude.

I should also add that the only reason I remain on Windows whatsoever is because I'm a PC gamer as well; if not for that I'd have dumped it long ago.

jvd

31-Oct-2005, 05:16

What's the money-wise aspect of it?

On the side, the point is not that PS3 is going to take on the PC world, the point is that with a viable alternative that is free, it's not outlandish to think that the number of individuals using their consoles for basic PC functions will go from zero to something other than zero. Is that so crazy?

If the build has a good GUI, and offers basic functionality - I think we're good to go.

If PSP can have the homebrew community built around it that it does, for god's sake Linux on Cell should be able to go beyond that by an order of magnitude.

I should also add that the only reason I remain on Windows whatsoever is because I'm a PC gamer as well; if not for that I'd have dumped it long ago.

Programs and apps . Sure there are free apps but they don't compare 90% of the time to pay apps . Then there is software that wont run on linux with out the developer programing for it .

People aren't going to move over to linux on the ps3 . There is no motive for it .

randycat99

31-Oct-2005, 05:16

not so :roll:

Hardknock

31-Oct-2005, 05:25

People aren't going to move over to linux on the ps3 . There is no motive for it .

jvd you are being very short-sighted.

jvd

31-Oct-2005, 05:28

jvd you are being very short-sighted.

Sure I am . Can you provide any counter points to what i said .

Or are u looking at 50 years from now ?

PARANOiA

31-Oct-2005, 05:32

I should also add that the only reason I remain on Windows whatsoever is because I'm a PC gamer as well; if not for that I'd have dumped it long ago.

Not being rhetorical here, but would you genuinely switch to the PS3 as your "system of choice" if it ships with Linux? That is, stop using your PC for everything except gaming? You'd voluntarily stop using Office, Itunes, Photoshop in favour of Linux variants?

Add to my last post (last page now) I'm interested, since I can't see 99% of people with a computer following suit, so I'm curious if this is genuine or just an "off-the-cuff" statement.

My next question would be, if so, why aren't you on a dual-boot machine right now? Why not surf the net, post on Beyond3D (what else do you use a computer for :wink: ) and edit images in a Linux flavour, and boot into Windows when you feel like playing PC games?

This also raises an interesting point of hardware "life". Consoles generally last for a few years before dying, and they're not used a whole heap - a few hours a day most of the time. My PC on the other hand is on 24/7, and I expect the parts in that to last at least a couple of years. If you used your PS3 as a PC, I imagine its life on your shelf would probably be decreased substantially. Though, in fairness, the "dying" parts of a console are usually the moving parts, like the drive or the optical laser.

Carl B

31-Oct-2005, 05:59

Not being rhetorical here, but would you genuinely switch to the PS3 as your "system of choice" if it ships with Linux? That is, stop using your PC for everything except gaming? You'd voluntarily stop using Office, Itunes, Photoshop in favour of Linux variants?

Add to my last post (last page now) I'm interested, since I can't see 99% of people with a computer following suit, so I'm curious if this is genuine or just an "off-the-cuff" statement.

My next question would be, if so, why aren't you on a dual-boot machine right now? Why not surf the net, post on Beyond3D (what else do you use a computer for :wink: ) and edit images in a Linux flavour, and boot into Windows when you feel like playing PC games?

This also raises an interesting point of hardware "life". Consoles generally last for a few years before dying, and they're not used a whole heap - a few hours a day most of the time. My PC on the other hand is on 24/7, and I expect the parts in that to last at least a couple of years. If you used your PS3 as a PC, I imagine its life on your shelf would probably be decreased substantially. Though, in fairness, the "dying" parts of a console are usually the moving parts, like the drive or the optical laser.

Fair questions Paranoia, fair questions. ;)

Well, I'm already off of Office - went to Open Office on Friday actually. As for iTunes, don't use it. Photoshop either. Firefox and the rest of it come in what I would need were I to go to Linux.

I'm not on a dual boot just becuase for me that's too much hassle; I want to be able to do what I do without resetting. But I do intend on using Linux as my 'base,' and load up Windows in a layer for gaming when the whole virtualization thing becomes the new trend, come 2006/2007.

You're right though, I myself probably wouldn't use it as my primary computer as such, but the fact that it can be hooked up to a monitor as well - that gets it close for me; close enough that I would weigh my options the next time I was going to spend a couple of hundred on upgrading.

But I think more relevent, for the millions that due the WebTV thing, PS3 seems well suited to target that 'type' of person.

Now - I honestly want very badly to see just how the Linux promise is implemented. Right now I think everyone's expectations are reasonable, but it basically revolves around Sony actually putting the OS on every HDD.

rabidrabbit

31-Oct-2005, 06:29

How much software is ther on average user's PC that he's invested anyway?
The OS and some antivirus software, maybe the Office suite and some games
The rest is downloaded, pirated software or freeware. Or "bundled" like some image editing software with cameras.

How much of that software he actually uses?
Does he use these programs fully? In most cases no.
-In Office he might only use Word for some simple wordprocessing (where in many cases he'd do just fine by using Notepad ;) )
-Image editing. I think most use just the automatic image correction function, photoalbum and greetings card creation.
-Video editing. The basic cutting, transitions and titling must be the most used.
-Music and video players. Simple software that are painlessly replaced by another.

My personal experience (sorry if some feel offended when I speak of what I need, or I want, and say it does't matter sh*t... but that's all I know for sure) from many Windows XP reinstall on my PS is that there's a ton of unnecessary, unused software that accumulates on th harddisk over time.
I even haven't played but less than five games since I bougth my new PC (two years ago), Half Life 2, Unreal Tournament, Doom3, Sims2.. of which only Half Life 2 and UT did I like enough to play more than just try them.

When I need to format the HD and lose much of the software installations, I feel the pain.
Then I realise than from all the programs I had I really only need a third that I do use. I might even had two or three software on my PC that are actually doing the same thing, but I had installed them before I could decide which one was "the right for me".

Emptying your PC and getting rid of all the unneeded software is a liberating experience.

Oh yes I almost forgot. Is it the fear that there'd be no software like Bittorrent clients for the new OS that's people are most afraid of? Or that there'd be so heavy DRM inbuilt into the OS that it'd make the pirated software difficult to use ;)

jvd

31-Oct-2005, 06:36

BlueTsunami

31-Oct-2005, 07:24

PS2 Install and Run Linux (http://www.cs.ust.hk/cssystem/henry/ps2linux/)

Seems actually pretty cool. Its a full blown Linux Distro and its supposed to run well even with the 32MB embedded RAM. I would actually like to try installing Linux on my PS2 (I have the Network Adapter....and theres a list of generic IDE HDDs floating around that work with the PS2).

Guden Oden

31-Oct-2005, 07:25

Can you provide any counter points to what i said .
How about you back up that statement of yours that 90% of free linux software doesn't compare to commercial (windows I have to assume) apps?

Not saying you're wrong (because there's a chance you're not), just that this assertment looks anecdotal in nature at best, and I'm curious as to what facts you got pointing to it being true...

BlueTsunami

31-Oct-2005, 07:43

How about you back up that statement of yours that 90% of free linux software doesn't compare to commercial (windows I have to assume) apps?

Not saying you're wrong (because there's a chance you're not), just that this assertment looks anecdotal in nature at best, and I'm curious as to what facts you got pointing to it being true...

One thing I read was that a school was moving to GIMP instead of Adobe Photoshop. GIMP isn't as feature rich as Photoshop but since GIMP is free and you basically get almost everything you would get from Photoshop, it was all justified.

Point is, it gets the job done. Theres also a MOD for GIMP that switches around the whole Interface to exactly mirror Photoshop :)

_phil_

31-Oct-2005, 08:18

jvd

31-Oct-2005, 08:32

jvd

31-Oct-2005, 08:41

A PC is ovekill and over complicated for a majority of people's need.
If sony can make it so a good user friendly GUI is built on a cell pc ([b]fixed plateform[b],btw) with the base app needed for what most people get a pc for,and the ablility to use that from their livingroom, then i'd bet they' ll win a big chunk of MS business.
The point is not to attack PC front and console front as 2 different markets ,but to create a third one in the living room.

THe problem is software isn't static .

a cell 3.2ghz with 512 megs of ram may be fine now . But how about in 2 years as websites get more complex and the demands become greater ?

How about in 2 years when virus programers target the linux versions on the ps3 . Do we then have to run virus programs and spyware programs on our ps3s taking more performance away ?

Do i have to reboot after surfing the web to play a game and then reboot to edit a video .

People use thier pcs in diffrent ways . My little cousin is normaly listening to music while surfing the web and having 15 to 20 im convos . Will i be then able to jump into a game ? WIll it affect performance ?

With opening up the system to doing more things we take away from its ability to do its primary task .

Sony put out a ps2 linux kit and it did not take off . I see no reason to believe a ps3 kit will .

Druga Runda

31-Oct-2005, 08:45

if Sony ever went PS3 + Linux on Microsoft, their strength (and chance) would lie in Open-ness of Linux to count on many developers world wide to get on the bandwagon and start developing for PS3 hoping to make a $... for all kind of apps. What opening up the architechture did to PC vs Apple on hardware front, so it could do to Linux vs Windows on software front. Even now when the majority of support comes from enetrprise side Linux is slowly creeping up on MSFT, but if a big player like Sony would come out with a desktop product that could be a killer.

(just to add, the final winner would be Linux on PC, open hardware + open software end) but this would suffice for Sony I think ;)

rabidrabbit

31-Oct-2005, 08:46

Wow rabbit seems like u don't take care of your pc .

I used to build pcs for a living . You'd be suprised how much software one actually buys when they aren't into the cracking scene .

Anyway it sounds like u really want to use your ps3 instead of a pc . SO i ask how much do u use your linux ps2 and why isn't that your primary machine ?
I do take care of my PC, and I've built it myself. It's worked just fine but sometimes unexplainable things just happen when I run some registry cleaning software, or let some automatic remove unneeded dll's ;)

Yes. I'd welcome another platform in addition to my PC, one which I'd leave be and just run my games, e-mail, messenger apps, video + photoalbums with editing and webbrowsing...all my primary uses, a computer that I would not mess with and get it into a knot :)

PS2 linux isn't my primary machine because
1. It isn't easily available.
2. The aforementioned apps aren't already coming withe the Linux kit.
3. I wouldn't bother searching for the best apps from each kategory.
4. PS2 Linux scene is not well (officially) supported, and imo is not polished enough for anything but hobbyist use.

I'm not saying PS3 would for sure be the console to kill my PC, time will tell how well the PS3 will perform of those tasks, but if......

_phil_

31-Oct-2005, 08:54

Sony put out a ps2 linux kit and it did not take off . I see no reason to believe a ps3 kit will

the ps2 linux kit wasn't meant to be a PC replacement at all.Some geek at sony said he could have linux running on ps2 ,this raised the interest from hombrew developpers who asked sony to release it.The surveys showed enough people interested for sony to issue something like 2000 linux kits .This is not exactly a market penetration tentative.

rabidrabbit

31-Oct-2005, 09:02

The same could be said for that xbox "media center extender" kit that MS released for the xbox.
Did that really take off? Then why did MS bother building the feature in xbox360??

jvd

31-Oct-2005, 09:02

I do take care of my PC, and I've built it myself. It's worked just fine but sometimes unexplainable things just happen when I run some registry cleaning software, or let some automatic remove unneeded dll's :wink:

hehe regedit yourself !

Yes. I'd welcome another platform in addition to my PC, one which I'd leave be and just run my games, e-mail, messenger apps, video + photoalbums with editing and webbrowsing...all my primary uses, a computer that I would not mess with and get it into a knot :smile:

Sadly it wont be an upgradable system and after a point if it ever became popular would be a target for viruses . For u someone that uses linux it wont be much of a transition but for the majority of people it will be and that is why there wont be an uptake of it

PS2 linux isn't my primary machine because
1. It isn't easily available.
2. The aforementioned apps aren't already coming withe the Linux kit.
3. I wouldn't bother searching for the best apps from each kategory.
4. PS2 Linux scene is not well (officially) supported, and imo is not polished enough for anything but hobbyist use.

and what gives you the impresion that the ps3 version will be any diffrent

I'm not saying PS3 would for sure be the console to kill my PC, time will tell how well the PS3 will perform of those tasks, but if......

I don't think any console will kill the pc. Just as it did in the past the pc will continue to evolve and it will some day kill the consoles

BlueTsunami

31-Oct-2005, 09:03

The Linux OS itself wasn't meant to be an attempt at anything but a test piloting for Linux on their console. Its also why its labled PS2 Linux Development Kit. The name should give away that much.

I wonder if the Linux kit itself was a early sign of things to come?

jvd

31-Oct-2005, 09:04

The same could be said for that xbox "media center extender" kit that MS released for the xbox.
Did that really take off? Then why did MS bother building the feature in xbox360??

Media center extender is much diffrent than linux .

Media center will just let u play back files stored on your media center pc . There is no additional software required . You just connect your xbox 360 to your network and stream what you want .

There is a huge diffrence between that and replacing a pc .

rabidrabbit

31-Oct-2005, 09:06

and what gives you the impresion that the ps3 version will be any diffrent

Sorry, I forgot to clarify that my PS2 is inded in my livingroom, connected to a crappy old 52" tube rear projection tv that really isn't suitable for small fonts a computer use would require.
When I upgrade to High Definition (am looking at the Panasonic AE900 projector) things will be different and I'll be able to use a computer in my livingroom. Also I hadn't a network connection in my livingroom until recently.
Media center extender is much diffrent than linux .

Media center will just let u play back files stored on your media center pc . There is no additional software required . You just connect your xbox 360 to your network and stream what you want .

There is a huge diffrence between that and replacing a pc .
No, I meant that the xbox mce and PS2 linux are just tesbeds, there's little reason to expect the future based on them. First you should remember the PS2 Linux kit was hardly marketed at all, and only sold via web.
Well, to be honest I don't think they'd sold that well even if marketed... because there was not yet a market big enough for them... like net connectivity before, there hasn't always been a big enough market for these new things for them to be marketed extensively or expected to sell huge.

rabidrabbit

31-Oct-2005, 09:14

Actually I'm a bit surprised the xbox media center extender wasn't even sold here. I think that would actually sold quite well if marketed more.

Did Microsoft even want it to sell?
Did they rather that the media center thing would remain a big selling point for xbox360, if everybody already bought such feature for xbox that would've diluted ther impact of that feature in xbox360.

jvd

31-Oct-2005, 09:22

Sorry, I forgot to clarify that my PS2 is inded in my livingroom, connected to a crappy old 52" tube rear projection tv that really isn't suitable for small fonts a computer use would require.
When I upgrade to High Definition (am looking at the Panasonic AE900 projector) things will be different and I'll be able to use a computer in my livingroom. Also I hadn't a network connection in my livingroom until recently.

Yea i don't think even a high def screen is going to be good for surfing the web . A screen that big your going to be pretty far away. We don't use the pc on the tv for surfing the web just for that reason even though its hd

No, I meant that the xbox mce and PS2 linux are just tesbeds, there's little reason to expect the future based on them. First you should remember the PS2 Linux kit was hardly marketed at all, and only sold via web.
Well, to be honest I don't think they'd sold that well even if marketed... because there was not yet a market big enough for them... like net connectivity before, there hasn't always been a big enough market for these new things for them to be marketed extensively or expected to sell huge.

I think u will find the linux will allways be a test bed. As for mce i think u will see it wont be big for a long time if ever . Though if either has a hcance of making headway i'd go with mce

rabidrabbit

31-Oct-2005, 09:28

Yea i don't think even a high def screen is going to be good for surfing the web . A screen that big your going to be pretty far away. We don't use the pc on the tv for surfing the web just for that reason even though its hd
I have no urge to touch the pictures the web shows me :D

Titanio

31-Oct-2005, 09:48

I don't think they want to release a PC, I think they want to release a "computer". I think they see the way people in the home use computers changing, a shift away from PCs, perhaps. Well, it's already happening really, in some respects. I don't think they're really doing it via Linux either, at least not this time around, since it won't be standard. But the main OS is likely to take on more PC-like functionality, crucially browsing the internet. That in itself is not enough in the short term to supplant the PC entirely, but in the longer term..perhaps. There may come a point where all you need is a box that lets you connect to the internet..I think that's a vision that Google has to a point, and it's something that Sony has an eye on with distributed applications. For example, if Google ever put Office apps online as is often rumoured, any machine with access to the internet could be used to access that - including through a standard PS3 browser. So I think Sony may be positioning themselves toward that kind of thing - software running off the network - with more functionality also running locally for the time being - things they think matter more particularly from an entertainment/communications point of view (as shown in that "convergence" slide from Kutaragi's speech - HD streams, movies, games, video communications, web browsing etc.), things they think are important to a "home user".

rabidrabbit

31-Oct-2005, 10:00

I believe they'l be using the "Cross Bar" interface as seen in PSX and PSP as the main interface. That itself would make it much more simple than a Windows based PC, also that would likely limit to how much you can choose what to install yourself.
Or maybe the cross bar interface is something like what comes from the Windows "Start" button, a quick launch for your media and such, and there's also be some icon based "traditional" desktop.
Anyway, I don't think it'll be some Linux KDE or other gui, but something Sony and maybe IBM built on top of the Linux themselves.
Hmmm.. I think I'll browse some old IBM OS/2 info just for the nostalygy of it...

Laa-Yosh

31-Oct-2005, 12:35

macabre

31-Oct-2005, 13:04

You`re right, I don`t really want to get into Linux on PC (my last experience is from 1999 or so - though I`m sure it has improved a lot).
But I could well imagine a version of Games Knoppix on PS3, because it would be ideal for a console with all the games included and the ability to boot from a DVD.So you wouldn`t even need a hd for smaller apps.

Squeak

31-Oct-2005, 13:11

If Sony supplied a neat bundled package of a Linux with a nice professional looking WIMP interface, OpenOffice, Firefox, GIMP and maybe Blender, with the harddisc or made it available for download, that would be basically free to them except for the design of the GUI shell.
That bundle would cover the vast majority of a private persons software needs.

I can't see how that could go wrong in any way.
If anything it would be the first small step in the direction of making Playstation/Cell a general computing platform.

blakjedi

31-Oct-2005, 13:17

rabidrabbit

31-Oct-2005, 13:18

Certainly no-one is expecting the PS3 to replace Windows based computers just overnight, I don't think even PS4 or PS5 will be able to do that, but if implemented succesfully, it has a chance to become the livingroom, entertainment media personal computer.

Carl B

31-Oct-2005, 13:24

Guys, you're still forgetting an important thing - average users haven't switched to Linux on the PC yet. Linux has totally failed to get a foothold beyond the hardcore audience, and a few industries (like movie VFX), and it's not just about MS being successful in its fight against the penguin. People don't want Linux and that's it. Even if the PS3 would be freely equipped with it on the harddrive, 99% of the users wouldn't even check it out...

And it's still only the first obstacle, then there'd be all the problems that JVD mentioned. I understand that you're excited about this, but there's no chance for Sony to succeed here.

I don't know - I think if it came free and suddenly you had a new option on the simple crossbar menu, users would check it out. After that it's just a matter of whether the appeal and user-friendliness of the OS is enough for word of mouth to take over and for it to become a selling point in and of itself.

I don't think Windows is under siege here by any stretch, but any sort of convergence device is something I'm all about.

And I think another barrier to entry for Linux has been that most Windows users simply will not give it a chance; it's unfamiliar. If it comes free on the hard drive with a cool GUI, people will at least play with it once or twice, and it could make an impression on some.

Anyway I think the language 'no chance for Sony to succeed here' is a little too strong. What would one define success as in this regard? On the contrary I think there's a good chance Sony succeeds here - judging success as simply getting 'computer' functionality into a number of PS3's out there.

Shifty Geezer

31-Oct-2005, 13:26

What a Cell processor lacks in 'general purpose' out-of-order functionality, I don't think most people will notice in general PC use. General PC consists of Internet, Word, Games, Sound and movies, digital photograhy+printing. If PS3 could do these things well and cheaply, I'd likely use it. But I'd want a totally different interface. Computers as they are are far too complicated for simple uses IMO. Heck, my mum can't even work a DVD menu effectively! They want the ability to click on an object and use it without having to worry about whether it's a file, program, which codec is needed, etc. If Sony pull that off they'll find a lot of fans in the computer illiterate.

Laa-Yosh

31-Oct-2005, 15:39

that would be basically free to them except for the design of the GUI shell.

No, it would cost them a lot in manpower. Put the bundle together, put it on the harddrive, test if it works, provide customer support - and who would pay for it? Linux had a lot of time to succeed on the PC, but it failed to do so. Tell me, why would anyone get interested in it just because it runs on a PS3? Just how many people do you know that use Linux, even as a secondary OS? Personally, I have noone to mention, except for Version, and I only 'know' him through the net anyway. And if people don't need the performance of the PS3, why would they then spend who knows how much on it, if they can get a cheap PC well under $1000?
And just where should you keep it? Would you move it into your study, on your desk - and play console games from there, instead of your couch in the living room? Or do word processing and video editing in front of your TV with the keyboard in your lap?

No, I don't think that Sony would want to turn the PS3 into a personal computer. It just defeats the purpose of being a console... Rather, they should try to enhance its funcionality in new, innovative ways, like MS tries it through the X360's dashboard.

Carl B

31-Oct-2005, 16:58

This is on the side but semi-related to the topic at hand. CNet is reporting today that Google is dedicating some staff to OpenOffice in order to improve it further and reduce the size of it's memory footprint.

Article (http://news.com.com/Google+throws+bodies+at+OpenOffice/2100-7344_3-5920762.html?tag=nefd.lede)

fireshot

31-Oct-2005, 18:37

There are people looking to Sony for a full OS solution??? before we even get to Windows, Sony has to start making software that is not buggy propertiary pos today.

PS3 Linux PC for the masses? No way. Kutaragi doesn't even speak with conviction for the kit. Linux-HDD will be like PS2 one. servicing a small number of cybergeeks is easier on the pocket.

PS3 will not harm the productivity of a PC. PS3 "PC" is the XMB shell.

..remains to be seen how XMB will stack up to MCE PC.

Carl B

31-Oct-2005, 18:39

IBM's the one building out the Cell-Linux, and they're already nearing the end game on that is the word on the street.

There's a good interview on this board buried somewhere with one of the programmers working on the Linux for Cell project, but I don't have the energy to find and rpovide the link right now.

I agree though that I could see the whole thing falling through the cracks, though I honestly hope they stick with the full Linux on every HDD track they mentioned before.

fireshot

31-Oct-2005, 19:22

IBM Cell Linux is likely for industrial purposes, when it manages to get out from the labs.

If MS and Windows is bad, I wouldn't want to count on Sony updating my PS3 PC Linux content..

PS3 PC Linux for the masses is a pipedream. There are no gains for Sony.

Shifty Geezer

31-Oct-2005, 19:24

I agree though that I could see the whole thing falling through the cracks, though I honestly hope they stick with the full Linux on every HDD track they mentioned before.Not usre I'd want FULL Linux. A Linux kernal based sub-set OS that just covers the 90% workload of mainstream PC usage would be fine.

BlueTsunami

31-Oct-2005, 19:56

I personally think that Windows is so prevolant is because of deals made with Hardware vendors that general users buy from. Windows XP is pre loaded almost every single computer from HP, Dell etc so its just there. In my mind, I see it as the consumer not choosing XP..its just the only OS thats been there and the only OS they can choose from (on the PC front).

Linux can mimick Windows in every way and still stay much more secure than it is currently the only issue is that you have to proactivley go out, download/order Linux yourself. Thats the main reason Linux hasn't gotton a foothold...theres a reason most people think Microsoft with Windows holds a monopoly.

Also, imagine if the only way you could acquire Windows was through the internet? Imagine you had to either download the 600MB+ Installation disk or buy it yourself then install it yourself. Its just simply much more of a hassle.

Shifty Geezer

31-Oct-2005, 21:11

Windows is prevalent now because MS made moves to kill the competition back when there was competition. Nowadays because the OS is so widespread you get all the developers writing to it - why write for a platform nobody uses? And then why get an OS that doesn't run all the software you own? I, like most people, have shelled out hundreds of quid, if not thousands, over the years on applications. Buying Linux would mean all those go to waste. That's why a replacement user OS will likely flunk. But a semi-OS, cut back to running standard services rather than any software you throw at it, might succeed IMO. Or an MS alternative where the software is as good, varied, and a tenth the price.

scooby_dooby

31-Oct-2005, 22:06

The biggest probl;em with this pipedream, IMO, is the assumption that a signifigant portion of people would actually prefer to do computer related tasks in their living room on their TV.

A mouse and a keyboard is the ideal way to browse the internet and I don't know too many people that have desks in their living room. And it's not very comfortable trying to use a mouse/kb on your coffee table.

Despite all the other technical reasons, such as lack of software, extremely limited choice between software that is available, more complex installations/uninstallations of software, the possiblity of a virus ruining your game machine, apps having to be re-written for CELL, despite all of those isssues, I think the main problem is lack of comfort.

Nobody really wants to browse the internet from their couch, the PC with a comfortable computer chair, and a nice desk will always be the preferred method. With all due respect, I don't see how anyone can seriously entertain this thought for more than 1 or 2 seconds. Even the X360 as a PC-like box in your living room with a full copy of windows would fail completely IMO, a PS3 linux box is not even on the radar.

BlueTsunami

31-Oct-2005, 22:23

Nobody really wants to browse the internet from their couch, the PC with a comfortable computer chair, and a nice desk will always be the preferred method. With all due respect, I don't see how anyone can seriously entertain this thought for more than 1 or 2 seconds. Even the X360 as a PC-like box in your living room with a full copy of windows would fail completely IMO, a PS3 linux box is not even on the radar.

First of all. I would like to browse the internet from the couch. There are times when I just want to catch up on information without having to turn on my PC and wade through the startup. The fact that its right there after I play a PS3 game makes it so easily assesible.

I understand about the whole comfortability thing but being able to do this on a larger than 19" screen makes it appealing to me.

What i'm wondering is how the OS will look being outputted to be big screen TV. IT would be cool if it was compareable to a standard computer monitor.

ERP

31-Oct-2005, 22:26

First of all. I would like to browse the internet from the couch. There are times when I just want to catch up on information without having to turn on my PC and wade through the startup. The fact that its right there after I play a PS3 game makes it so easily assesible.

I understand about the whole comfortability thing but being able to do this on a larger than 19" screen makes it appealing to me.

What i'm wondering is how the OS will look being outputted to be big screen TV. IT would be cool if it was compareable to a standard computer monitor.

My network player has a built in browser and it is a pain in the ass to use even on my 1080i TV.

The text is annoyingly fuzzy and general navigation is a pain.

I actually thing the revolutions controller would work pretty well for a web browser interface.

BlueTsunami

31-Oct-2005, 22:30

My network player has a built in browser and it is a pain in the ass to use even on my 1080i TV.

The text is annoyingly fuzzy and general navigation is a pain.

I actually thing the revolutions controller would work pretty well for a web browser interface.

Yeah, thats my only concern. With higher resolutions (above 800x600) the text would have to be blown up and some type of AA should be applied to the text to make it look nice and smooth. I hope that Sony has in mind the fact that the OS itself would be used on HDTVs not just CRT Monitors.

scooby_dooby

31-Oct-2005, 22:40

The rev's controller could be prety cool, cause it's very mouse-ish, but you still can't type. So, unless you already have everything previously bookmarked, I'm not sure how effectively you could browse.

I guess they could build in some sort of category basd search engine, like Grokster, but still, when it's all said and done, wouldn't you rather just have the full capabilities of your PC??

BlueTsunami - I hear you, from a totall "it would be cool if..." standpoint, I mean, sure it's kinda nifty, and in certain cases might be handy. But who's the market? Would you replace your current PC with a PS3? Would you be willing to pay $200 extra for this built-in capability when you have a PC that does the same thing?

And if web browsing is what we really want, why even bother with linux? Sony could simply design a web browser themselves and embed it on the machine. Why not port Opera to PS3?

I just REALLY fail to see where the market here is. Even if it's provided completely free of charge, and the somehow managed a way to let ordinary users install applications(provided they port/create these applications), it still wouldn't take off. Simply because everything, including simple link clicking is better done with a mouse+kb, and nobody has a computer desk sitting in the middle of their living room.

The only way I could see this even being in the realm of possibility, is if PS3 acted as your PC and had a Monitor-out to your computer desk. The PS3 could act as the tower, and you would simply need a KB+Mouse+Monitor and you would have a simplified PC, albeit extremely limited. It would be a cost saving option to some, anyoone looking to upgrade their PC might be interested, since their console could essentially act as their new PC.

But even in that scenario, big issues arise with viruses, software availability, customer support etc...

There's just no way this will EVER happen. No way.

Squeak

31-Oct-2005, 22:48

No, it would cost them a lot in manpower. Put the bundle together, put it on the harddrive, test if it works, provide customer support - and who would pay for it?
Putting the bundle together would not be more expensive than producing a budget game, and would result in more people buying the HDD, and the even better, the long-term benefit would be SCE getting a foot in the door in the house of GP computing, so to speak.
They do have to but some software on the HDD anyway, why not go that tiny bit further?

Linux had a lot of time to succeed on the PC, but it failed to do so. Tell me, why would anyone get interested in it just because it runs on a PS3?

The reason for Linux “failure” (if only all failures were like that!) and microsofts monopoly are many faceted and have been answered better than I have time for now, in other posts in this thread.

why would they then spend who knows how much on it, if they can get a cheap PC well under $1000?

But a 1000$ PC wont play new games. The only reason PCs have grown so fast and so strong is because of games

Whats’s more, I think the PC world adopting a more console like hardware approach would be quite healthy. Introducing the same kind of long-term (5yr) generations in the PC world, for consumers who are tired of always worrying about when to buy and what to buy.
It would give a much-needed stability in both pricing, feeling of security and ease of programming.

And just where should you keep it? Would you move it into your study, on your desk - and play console games from there, instead of your couch in the living room? Or do word processing and video editing in front of your TV with the keyboard in your lap?

What do you do with your PC when gaming? Do drag the whole setup, minus monitor to the living room?
With the extra HDMI port you could have a computer, monitor, keyboard and mouse setup and then have a long cable to your TV.

No, I don't think that Sony would want to turn the PS3 into a personal computer. It just defeats the purpose of being a console...

SCE stands for Sony Computer Entertainment, not Console Entertainment.
SCE has always been very careful to refer to the Playstations as entertainment computers or something to that effect, and even more so with each new machine.

one

31-Oct-2005, 23:15

I personally think that Windows is so prevolant is because of deals made with Hardware vendors that general users buy from.Yeah the driver issue is big. NVIDIA and ATI to begin with. Configuring X is really pain in the ass. Even though you buy a new hardware it's not guaranteed to run optimally on Linux or even work. Now, PS3 at least has NVIDIA on board so you don't have to worry about the GPU.

Laa-Yosh

31-Oct-2005, 23:55

Putting the bundle together would not be more expensive than producing a budget game

Why are you so sure?

They do have to but some software on the HDD anyway, why not go that tiny bit further?

It is quite more than that. You seem to have missed customer support in my list for a start.

The reason for Linux “failure” (if only all failures were like that!) and microsofts monopoly are many faceted and have been answered better than I have time for now, in other posts in this thread.

I'm sorry but I can't take that as an answer. I still haven't seen anyone running Linux on his home PC except for one person, and I personally haven't used it in my entire life. And I'm both a hardcore gamer, an engineer with a degree in computer science, and a 3D artist for a living, so I do know a few people with PCs... Thus I dare say that Linux has totally failed to conquer the home user market. Please list arguments if you disagree.

But a 1000$ PC wont play new games. The only reason PCs have grown so fast and so strong is because of games

Neither would your PS3 play PC games... and if you want console games, you can get both, right? A dirt cheap PC and a console still wouldn't cost that much.
And please don't think that games and only games have driven the PC's growth - out of hundreds of millions of PCs, less than 10% is DX9 compliant today... but there are many industries that still hunger for more computing and graphics power.

Whats’s more, I think the PC world adopting a more console like hardware approach would be quite healthy. Introducing the same kind of long-term (5yr) generations in the PC world, for consumers who are tired of always worrying about when to buy and what to buy.

This is not good for the hardware manufacturers, for the software developers, and for all the workstation/server users of the world. The home PC market is too small to set directions for the entire industry.

What do you do with your PC when gaming? Do drag the whole setup, minus monitor to the living room?

I play different games on the PC, than I would want to on a console...

With the extra HDMI port you could have a computer, monitor, keyboard and mouse setup and then have a long cable to your TV.

Signal quality isn't an issue for you then? Long cables tend to have a bad effect on it.

I'm sorry but you're arguing with small details and fail to convince me about the bigger issues here. Trying to turn the PS3 into a personal computer has no gains for Sony at
all, while it would take a lot of money and other resources to do so, and it wouldn't gain any interest from the vast majority of their market. I can totally understand why some people would like to see it happen, but I don't think that we'll see it...

silhouette

01-Nov-2005, 00:02

My network player has a built in browser and it is a pain in the ass to use even on my 1080i TV.

The text is annoyingly fuzzy and general navigation is a pain.

I actually thing the revolutions controller would work pretty well for a web browser interface.

I connect my PC to my TV (720p) a couple of times. Eventhough the text is crisp and clean, my eyes started to hurt after two hours of use. TVs are simply not suitable for this kind of task (especially your background is white).

However, what if you connect your computer-PS3 to your monitor (the same scenario we used to with Amiga back in old days). If you want to play game, connect to your TV. If you want to use it as a computer, connect to your monitor.

Btw, the linux on PS3 might not be that hard to implement. They can make the implementation so that only PPE is used by the kernel. Also, they only have to implement device drivers for the hardware in PS3, not for N different hardware from M different manufacturer.

I think this would be dream machine for a coder. However, for widespread use, I cannot see it successful unless they also provide all type of applications that people use for their daily tasks (i.e. office, browser, IM, etc.).

one

01-Nov-2005, 00:03

And if web browsing is what we really want, why even bother with linux? Sony could simply design a web browser themselves and embed it on the machine. Why not port Opera to PS3?FYI, PSP already has a web browser called NetFront (http://www.access.co.jp/english/products/nf.html) embedded in its firmware. It's the de facto standard of a web browser in embedded/consumer electronics space. PS3 will most likely have this browser too.

The only way I could see this even being in the realm of possibility, is if PS3 acted as your PC and had a Monitor-out to your computer desk.Buy an HDMI-DVI adapter, and you're ready.

scooby_dooby

01-Nov-2005, 00:14

Buy an HDMI-DVI adapter, and you're ready.

No. Sony need to create a library of Applications that will give the PS3 the capabilty to act as a 'meaningful' PC, invest tons of money into customer support, ensure virus protection, and provide drivers for all my peripherals.

Then it's ready!

Even after all that, you get a weak PC with hardly any software available.

one

01-Nov-2005, 00:35

I think this would be dream machine for a coder. However, for widespread use, I cannot see it successful unless they also provide all type of applications that people use for their daily tasks (i.e. office, browser, IM, etc.).If the RTE/DRM issue is cleared, Redhat, Suze, or whoever willing to make money or volunteer can supply distributions and support I guess.

No. Sony need to create a library of Applications that will give the PS3 the capabilty to act as a 'meaningful' PC, invest tons of money into customer support, ensure virus protection, and provide drivers for all my peripherals.
As for applications please read my reply to Powderkeg in this same thread.
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showpost.php?p=610062&postcount=25

As for customer support, Sony already have big support centers. You know currently they are even selling Windows PC called VAIO loaded with Sony-created applications, don't you?
Virus protection is ridiculous. Just look at MS Windows :razz:

BlueTsunami

01-Nov-2005, 00:50

No. Sony need to create a library of Applications that will give the PS3 the capabilty to act as a 'meaningful' PC, invest tons of money into customer support, ensure virus protection, and provide drivers for all my peripherals.

Then it's ready!

Even after all that, you get a weak PC with hardly any software available.

All the software made for Linux is basicaly able to be easily ported over to the PS3, which is quite alot!. Drivers and Peripherals are a non issue. Why? Because the PS3 itself is a closed system. What they would essentially be doing is the same thing Apple does with Macs. They don't need to worry about driver support becuase what you get with the PS3 is what your going to stay with.

Also....this is Linux we're talking. Virus's aren't as prevolant (possibly almost non existent) as a Windows system. Also, Microsoft themselves are implimenting a user system that allows you to be in command of your system but break away the admin functions so that when you need to do administrative stuff it asks for the admins password. This is something thats been implimented in Linux for a long time (Root access should never be used as a regular user account).

rajeev84

01-Nov-2005, 01:40

I think many people are not really seeing the big picture here.

I for one know with certaintity that this topic is one that SCE is widely concerned with. Now, it's doubtful there'd take any drastic approach as making a stand alone PS3/PC. The reasons i think may include backlash from the entire PC industry. Many hardware manufacturors may not like this at all. However, if implemented properly, a lot could benefit.

Ken Kutagari has always spoke about the PS2 becoming a basically a poor mans PC. What stopped him? Basically i think his idea was ahead of its time. However, the time is ripe now. PC processessing power isn't really a limiting factor any more. CPU's from 3 years ago can still hold their own in mostly everything aside from games.

Sony + Google + Linux + Mozilla = End of Microsoft OS Monopoly? (obviously not instantly, but within a few years, is it possible for Sony to capture atleast a 10% share of the PC market?)

MoeStooge

01-Nov-2005, 02:03

Fafalada

01-Nov-2005, 02:16

I'm sorry but I can't take that as an answer. I still haven't seen anyone running Linux on his home PC except for one person, and I personally haven't used it in my entire life. And I'm both a hardcore gamer, an engineer with a degree in computer science, and a 3D artist for a living
Actually I'm under impression that IT professionals are one of the least likely to use Linux (or multiple OSs) at home (while using windows at work). It's a simple manner of convenience - personally I just want to use my PC - not spend all my time tinkering with it, especially outside work hours.
And as great many Windows-Only users demonstrate, you can already waste all your time on endlessly tinkering with a single-OS machine - although one could very well argue Windows PCs are the worst offender in that area to start with.

Thus I dare say that Linux has totally failed to conquer the home user market. Please list arguments if you disagree.
Well by and far majority of home users would be using pre-installed systems. How many PC shops even offer the option of Linux OS on the machine?

jvd

01-Nov-2005, 02:20

Powderkeg

01-Nov-2005, 02:27

Well by and far majority of home users would be using pre-installed systems. How many PC shops even offer the option of Linux OS on the machine?

HP sells it preinstalled, and companies like Gateway and Dell provide it as an optional OS.

No one buys it though. The lack of Linux sales isn't a problem with a lack of distribution, it's a problem with lack of demand. If enough people wanted it, I guarantee you OEM manufacturers would offer it.

Laa-Yosh

01-Nov-2005, 02:44

Well by and far majority of home users would be using pre-installed systems. How many PC shops even offer the option of Linux OS on the machine?

Is there really a demand for it? I'd think that there would be a supply as well in that case... Yed, of course, if people don't know about it, there couldn't be a demand... but Linux had many years to get to be known.
Oh, I see there's already a post about this... anyway, I agree with you about professionals and their dislike for tinkering at home ;)

c0_re

01-Nov-2005, 02:50

This is a novel idea and technically completely possible just make it powerful enough to surf the net\email various light weight high def multimedia\photo stuff(as fas as memory footprint)all that type of stuff.

Here's the trick Sony would have had to hire thousands of software developers 3 years ago to make it friendly\stable\capable enough for people who use windows to move onto easily(Like a MAC with windows like functionality) I mean make it as close to windows XP as legally possible, hell I would use it to surf the net well thats until I switch over to plasma and hook my PC up to my TV.

I mean there's very few companies that can challenge Microsoft on any hardware\software level Sony is one of them even you don't like Sony or Microsoft as a company you still have to appreciate having them around to make the competition work harder and spend more to make their product better.

lip2lip

01-Nov-2005, 02:50

ps3 with linux and bluetooth keyboard and mouse, plus linux firefox, I will never buy anouther wintel box again.

scooby_dooby

01-Nov-2005, 02:54

I think Sony will worry about creating a real online service for PS3 before it sinks all kinds of money into fighting a losing battle against MS for PC superiority.

XBLive cost MS an estimated 2 Billion dollars right? If Sony wants to maintain it's lead it will need something like XBLive, and that's alot of change, especially for a company who's not exactly rolling in money.

Everyone underestimates Live, I think it's going to be a huge driver over the next few year, 2007, 2008, 2009, online gaming on consoles will come into it's own, especially as people embrace XB-Arcade.

So, I think you'll see Sony concentrate it's efforts/money there, and leave the PS3-PC ideas for Kenny's interviews and self-motivated tech enthusiasts...

Vince

01-Nov-2005, 03:03

Is there really a demand for it? I'd think that there would be a supply as well in that case... Yed, of course, if people don't know about it, there couldn't be a demand... but Linux had many years to get to be known.

IMHO, the 'problem' with this thread is semantics; you're debating the wrong topic. There's no way Sony would want to take on Windows head-on, why would you want to? The question should not be can the PS3 replace the PC; but, rather, can the PS3 provide enough functionality to make the PC redundant?

And to that, my answer is yes. When you look at the set of functions I use my PC for at home, it's basically net-browsing (Firefox), email (Thunderbird) and music (SonicStage|Connect). I see no reason the PlayStation3 can't support these functions more than adequately, especially on a 1080i/p HDTV. I have a few applications that wouldn't cross over, Chicago uses FinchTV & Chromas for example. But the point of my laptop isn't for work related tasks, so this is outside of what I would expect a PS3 to run.

In closing, it was the threat of a PlayStation2 with an LCD screen, Linux and TimeWarner|AOL supported web browsing subsidized by advertising revenues in 2000 during the dot-com boom that scared Microsoft into building consoles. I see no reason a PlayStation3 can't do what the former couldn't.

And sign a revenue sharing deal with Google for search, both of the media stored on the PlayStation3/Cell infrastructure and on the internet via PS3, just to piss off Microsoft.

TrungGap

01-Nov-2005, 03:34

Why didn't MS want linux to run on the xbox? Simple, they were sell the console at a loss. If someone running linux on a xbox doesn't bring MS any revenue. The business model does not work.

For Sony to have a good business model using the Cell, they can not just take the PS3 and stuff it with linux and expect to make something of it. Who's going to pay for all the R&D Sony invested? Who's going to pay for the customer service? Where is Sony going to make money? Look, it's not like STI doesn't have a Cell based workstation business plan. They do, but it's definitely not as cheap as a PS3. They Look people, there's no free lunch.

Sony's existing PC division doesn't sell a PC with a spec like PS3 for a reason (G70 with 256MB would cost you more than $200). They could have stuff linux on those PC instead of Windows. They could bundle bunch of open source apps. They could make it a closed system, if they wanted. Nobody is forcing them to sell Windows with those PC. Nobody is forcing them to use Intel CPU instead of AMD or IBM's PowerPC. Nobody is forcing them to use an open architecture. If they wanted a revolution, they would have done it along time ago. Linux isn't the silver bullet. Linux hasn't reach a critical mass, where it matters. Open source? Would you rather use GIMP or Photoshop? OpenOffice or MS Office?

Why do you want to wait for PS3 with Linux? You can install Linux on your PC, PowerMac or whatnot. Is waiting for a PS3 with Linux going to make it better? No. Unless you planning to tap into the power of the Cell, then in that case mind as well get a real Cell workstation. You'll get more support. More memory, more speed and more options. You could already run Linux on PS2 and xbox. Did it change the world? Are you using it as your primary computer?

Laa-Yosh

01-Nov-2005, 03:42

This is a very important distinction indeed... I've already mentioned that it should be about enhancing console functionality, and that does not require Linux IMHO.
But in this case, the result probably wouldn't please the kind of enthusiasts like the topic starter, nor would it seriously endanger the PC. Communication and media functionality are cool, and might as well have a better place in the living room - but you still couldn't make spreadsheats about the family budget, write an essay for school, not to mention more complex tasks like image or video editing.
Taking over part of the PCs functionality would probably hurt quite a lot of hardware manufacturers though, no wonder Nvidia and Ati are both going for the consoles. Surprisingly, it'd still need an OS and applications like Office ;)

Now, Sony hasn't talked about related plans yet, only MS, right? I wonder what they're cooking up to go against the Xbox.

TrungGap

01-Nov-2005, 03:56

TrungGap

01-Nov-2005, 04:13

PS2 and xbox can do that, already. Eh, even a modded dreamcast could do that...

I wanted to clarify/expand on my first point that PS2/xbox/dc could already provide all the functionality of a PC.

Console already have enough power to run mainstream OS. By doing so, it could do everything that a mainstream PC could do. So arguing on that point is...eh...pointless. The question is, "is it viable for a business to do so?" Because a console business model is different than that of PC business model. My stance is that it's not.

We already had a couple of attempt from companies that offers free computer (almost like the console business model). You get a really free (or almost free) PC. The company would make money by having you watch ads or subscribe to ISP, etc. We don't see them around anymore. We can blame their failures on a lot of different factors, however their business model is such a delicate balance it would be really tough to juggle. I think it's too risky for Sony to enter this business.

Vince

01-Nov-2005, 04:22

PS2 and xbox can do that, already. Eh, even a modded dreamcast could do that...

I have a PlayStation2 sitting in my livingroom, it can't do that. Actually, all it can do it play games, DVD and CDs. As an average consumer, I have no idea what you're talking about.

Again, I'm not arguing about a Windows alternative/replacement, I'm talking about a Playstation3 having enough functionality to make a windows PC unnecessary for the vast majority of users.

MS wasn't scared into building a console. MS already had a plan going to your living room long before that. They brought out WebTV for ~$400M in 1997. They invested a lot of money before doing the xbox taht was geared toward them entering your living room (like invested $1B in comcast cable).

That's blatently untrue. Gabe Newell's (Microsoft exec, former) commented about Sony in early 2000 to CGW. I think Newell's comment was along the lines of, 'They [Sony] scared the shit out of [Intel's] Andy Grove; they scared the shit out of [Microsoft's] Ballmer and Gates.'

Your hypothesis also doesn't fit in with the known XBox timelime when back in late 1999, early 2000 they were shopping around for IHVs to produce a PC with fixed specs; the leap to becoming a hardware vendor is such a departure for them (and their profit margins) it's extrordinary. I happen to believe Gabe and my version a bit over yours.

Fafalada

01-Nov-2005, 04:31

Is there really a demand for it? I'd think that there would be a supply as well in that case... Yes, of course, if people don't know about it, there couldn't be a demand... but Linux had many years to get to be known. Oh come now - MS didn't get where they did with Win3x/Win9x by word of mouth - they had massive advertising machine behind it.
If you want to reach the masses you aren't going to do it by letting geeks talk about your product, no matter how popular it is with them.
If that worked Warp would have stopped Win9x before it even got started. And that was a perfect example of an OS that wasn't really any less friendly then MS offering, ran the SAME software (for the first year anyway), was more stable and offered superior functionality in several areas, yet it still failed miserably, courtesy of IBM's incompetent marketing department.

Mass market demand isn't going to materialize out of nowhere - and I see little vested interest from any of the big Linux backers in advertising it as viable home PC OS.

aaaaa00

01-Nov-2005, 04:46

If that worked Warp would have stopped Win9x before it even got started. And that was a perfect example of an OS that wasn't really any less friendly then MS offering, ran the SAME software (for the first year anyway), was more stable and offered superior functionality in several areas, yet it still failed miserably, courtesy of IBM's incompetent marketing department.

Well to be fair, it wasn't all roses on OS/2 Warp either. The WPS was still kinda flaky, driver support was still kinda spotty, and the system requirements were still a notch above Win9x.

It was definitely a better OS than Win9x, but for other than the hardcore users, it really wasn't better enough to make the average joe go to the effort of switching to it.

Fafalada

01-Nov-2005, 05:05

It was definitely a better OS than Win9x, but for other than the hardcore users, it really wasn't better enough to make the average joe go to the effort of switching to it.
MS didn't start with a Win9x userbase - average Joes had to go through the effort of switching to IT from Dos.
And there was zero sense of familiarity to the new OS except for the Microsoft Logo on bootup - this was entirely up to marketting and iniative to get software support.
And there's no need to debate who won that battle. ;)

Well to be fair, it wasn't all roses on OS/2 Warp either. The WPS was still kinda flaky, driver support was still kinda spotty, and the system requirements were still a notch above Win9x.
Indeed - but they both started with plenty of same problems - MS just got around improving things that mattered the most, faster (such as driver support). IBM meanwhile seemed more interested in competing with NT with new features and upgrades (especially if you look at the way version 4.0 went).

TrungGap

01-Nov-2005, 05:32

I have a PlayStation2 sitting in my livingroom, it can't do that. Actually, all it can do it play games, DVD and CDs. As an average consumer, I have no idea what you're talking about.

Again, I'm not arguing about a Windows alternative/replacement, I'm talking about a Playstation3 having enough functionality to make a windows PC unnecessary for the vast majority of users.

Linux for the PS2 has been available for a while now. It's not an underground hack. It's an official product. My point is that it isn't in Sony best interest to support such business model. They want you to play games (and buy games), they make money on the royalities.

As for dumbing down the app for the mass...it depends on how you define what sort of app the vast majority of users use. Which I belive is still a lot. Browser, word processor, spreadsheet, email, simple photo editing...but still how do they plan to make money?

That's blatently untrue. Gabe Newell's (Microsoft exec, former) commented about Sony in early 2000 to CGW. I think Newell's comment was along the lines of, 'They [Sony] scared the shit out of [Intel's] Andy Grove; they scared the shit out of [Microsoft's] Ballmer and Gates.'

Your hypothesis also doesn't fit in with the known XBox timelime when back in late 1999, early 2000 they were shopping around for IHVs to produce a PC with fixed specs; the leap to becoming a hardware vendor is such a departure for them (and their profit margins) it's extrordinary. I happen to believe Gabe and my version a bit over yours.

I don't think MS was scared into building a console. Granted, xbox may not be what they had envisioned intitially, but it's always MS plan to expand into the living room. They were caught off guard. MS is known for their paranoida, and having aquired WebTV and to have any form of competition would throw them into a frenzy.

They started looking into video games console market in 1999. Their first plan was not to build console, but have dell and other manufacturers build and sell. They would market and develope games for it, somewhat like the MCE now. Unfortunately when that plan didn't work, they had to use their plan b, which is build the console themselves. Inititially they wanted to release the xbox in 2000. But it was changed for a more powerful version, so the schedule slipped til end of 2001. Wasn't PS2 with Linux announcement in may 2001 (how cleaver of Sony) and the released was in may 2002?

The reason xbox was ~rushed (debatable point) is because of the perceived success of the PS2. They know the business, they saw how Sony killed Sega (I guess this point is debatable). MS may not have the experience of Sony, but this market isn't totally new for them. But saying MS was scared into building a console is pretty like saying Sony was scared into building PS3, because MS announced 360 in 2005.

fireshot

01-Nov-2005, 06:57

IMHO, the 'problem' with this thread is semantics; you're debating the wrong topic. There's no way Sony would want to take on Windows head-on, why would you want to? The question should not be can the PS3 replace the PC; but, rather, can the PS3 provide enough functionality to make the PC redundant?

And to that, my answer is yes. When you look at the set of functions I use my PC for at home, it's basically net-browsing (Firefox), email (Thunderbird) and music (SonicStage|Connect). I see no reason the PlayStation3 can't support these functions more than adequately, especially on a 1080i/p HDTV. I have a few applications that wouldn't cross over, Chicago uses FinchTV & Chromas for example. But the point of my laptop isn't for work related tasks, so this is outside of what I would expect a PS3 to run.

In closing, it was the threat of a PlayStation2 with an LCD screen, Linux and TimeWarner|AOL supported web browsing subsidized by advertising revenues in 2000 during the dot-com boom that scared Microsoft into building consoles. I see no reason a PlayStation3 can't do what the former couldn't.

And sign a revenue sharing deal with Google for search, both of the media stored on the PlayStation3/Cell infrastructure and on the internet via PS3, just to piss off Microsoft.

Did it occur to you that you're are debating anecdotal evidence?

Vince, I like to know which school of marketing you graduated from. :)

Phil

01-Nov-2005, 07:39

Linux for the PS2 has been available for a while now. It's not an underground hack. It's an official product. My point is that it isn't in Sony best interest to support such business model. They want you to play games (and buy games), they make money on the royalities.

You're not reading what he's saying. The average user doesn't even know that you can get Linux on PS2, let alone the fact that it's entirely sold through one single website. Not as if the average joe would care anyway, since the majority of people don't know how to use Linux in the first place! The Linux kit is targeted at a very different market segment (hobby programmers and developers), in other words a niche product.

What Vince is talking about is if PS3 can provide built in functionality with PS3 that could make a PC redundant for many of those average users.

Platon

01-Nov-2005, 09:09

I don't get the rationale with many people here.

So if there is a PS3 that has Linux and you can do webbrowsing, write some word documents and some spredsheets you will abandon your PC? Why haven't you done it already, Linux has been out there for years? Why do you need a PS3 to run it?

And I am certain that it is after all much nicer to do those tasks on a desk, infront of a PC screen, instead on the coutch even if you have HDTV.

And exactly where would Sony make money with this little adventure? To me it sounds extremely much to loose and even less to win. I think that Sony would rather spend the money on enhancing its own bussines, rather than spending money just to hurt MS. The only way this would be profitable would be through a monopoly. Is that where we want to go? So we will go from a software monopoly (MS) to a hardware (and software?) monopoly by Sony? hmmmm... I think that people fail to realise that even holy Sony wants to make money as well, just like evil MS.

And another thing, why would this PS3 Linux stuff be so much better than maybe an xbox360 PC variant, which I have to say I find much closer to be a realistic plan...

rabidrabbit

01-Nov-2005, 09:24

I don't get the rationale with many people here.

So if there is a PS3 that has Linux and you can do webbrowsing, write some word documents and some spredsheets you will abandon your PC? Why haven't you done it already, Linux has been out there for years? Why do you need a PS3 to run it?
Becaause who would need to buy another PC just to replace Windows with Linux, or remove the Windows from exsisting PC and replace with Linux. If Windows gets the job done for them, why should they migrate?
It's not that people hate Windows so much they want to get rid of it and replace it with something, now.

But as those people who may own a Windows PC buy a PS3 for their console gaming, and if the PS3 will have extensive PC features, then it has a chance to replace some of the use that people used to do with their WIndows based PC.
You know, that "Trojan Horse" effect that they keep telling us.

I don't think the mainstream buyer will be getting a PS3 thinking "Now I can finally get rid of my PC and do my stuff with PS3",
nor do I think people will be buying the PS3 just for the sole reason they can run "that Linux".
They'll buy it for the games, the extra functionality and if that extra functionality proves to be working well for them maybe they'll use them (also) on livingroom PS3 (betweentimes) instead of their bedroom PC.

Phil

01-Nov-2005, 09:32

And exactly where would Sony make money with this little adventure? To me it sounds extremely much to loose and even less to win. I think that Sony would rather spend the money on enhancing its own bussines, rather than spending money just to hurt MS. The only way this would be profitable would be through a monopoly. Is that where we want to go? So we will go from a software monopoly (MS) to a hardware (and software?) monopoly by Sony? hmmmm... I think that people fail to realise that even holy Sony wants to make money as well, just like evil MS.

The problem is, you're arguing two different things at the same time. You can't argue one companies desire (to have a monopoly) with what the consumer thinks about it. You should decide what you want to argue:

- Shall we argue the benefits for a company such as Sony to control the livingroom and perhaps grab a bit of share from the PC segment by people that won't need to upgrade their PC anymore to satisfy their basic computer needs (basically email & internet access).

- or shall we argue what's best for the consumer?

Platon

01-Nov-2005, 09:59

Becaause who would need to buy another PC just to replace Windows with Linux, or remove the Windows from exsisting PC and replace with Linux. If Windows gets the job done for them, why should they migrate?
It's not that people hate Windows so much they want to get rid of it and replace it with something, now.

But as those people who may own a Windows PC buy a PS3 for their console gaming, and if the PS3 will have extensive PC features, then it has a chance to replace some of the use that people used to do with their WIndows based PC.
You know, that "Trojan Horse" effect that they keep telling us.

I don't think the mainstream buyer will be getting a PS3 thinking "Now I can finally get rid of my PC and do my stuff with PS3",
nor do I think people will be buying the PS3 just for the sole reason they can run "that Linux".
They'll buy it for the games, the extra functionality and if that extra functionality proves to be working well for them maybe they'll use them (also) on livingroom PS3 (betweentimes) instead of their bedroom PC.

My responce was more towards those were it atleast "sounded" that the PS3+Linux = goodbye PC+MS

Sure it couls act as a trojan horse, the question is, how much will it cost?

You see if they sell it, they will have to support it. They will have to see that the programs are all working OK. Especially with free software, that everyone has been touting as the savior of mankind, I really don't expect any form of support from the software manufacturer. So when little Jonny (or whatever his name is) downloads some free program and installes it and messes up the system who to call? Sony, and they will be like :"wtf, we haven't even heard of that program"

And what happens when viruses come out for this thing, because if there is one thing that is certain, is that if it becomes successful, virus will come like flies to honey.

And once again who will be the market? And how would you be able to make money out of them?

The thing is I see a lot of problems associated with this with minisicule benefits for Sony, because in the end of the day, what is the benefit for Sony?

It will be extremely interesting to see after the launch of PS3, how many in this forum will be doing their posting on a their PS3s rather than their PCs...

Shifty Geezer

01-Nov-2005, 10:03

As for dumbing down the app for the mass...it depends on how you define what sort of app the vast majority of users use. Which I belive is still a lot. Browser, word processor, spreadsheet, email, simple photo editing...but still how do they plan to make money?If the only way to gain access to programs for PS3 were through a content portal, Sony could test programs submitted for inclusion to see they're not dangerous and then release, taking a cut of every sale, the same as they can for all media content. Being a middleman merchant is the most profitable occupation in the world, making money for mostly other people's work.

As for computing in the living room, if it works well I might buy a second and run it upstairs on a monitor. By run well, if the media apps are fully optimized for Cell and get the performance. If it doesn't considerably faster than my PC then I won't bother.

At the moment I run Win2k. It's alright. There'sa few bugs with the system which I can't be botherd to fix as overall it's working. I've the firewall, virus killer etc. going and can use it without needing constant maintenance. But I don't download software and try various demos which doing a lot of can duff Windows in.

To the contrary, my mum runs a similar machine and I constantly have to give advice and explain things. See can't comfortably work Windows. Neither can some 90% of the people I've met, including running IT support. A Sony PS3PC should be targetted at these people offering a single box solution where they don't need to worry anything about how to uninstall software the right way, how to update the virus killer, what a firewall is and how to use it, how to update their graphics driver and how to revert to an older driver when the new one screws up an old application, how to solve an issue when you install an application and it doesn't run without telling you why (which was a strip and reuild BTW)...there's a million unneccesary complications that could be removed. Heck it needn't be Sony to solve this. Apple are going halfway. People at least Apple's are easier and are starting to buy them for that reason. I've been tempted myself in the past with the crap Windows have given me at times. A computer for simple people is a fantastic idea and one that could work IMO, though I doubt Sony will pull it off. And if they go with open Linux, a full OS, that'll just confuse people more than Windows, which at least they know partly how to use. Money spent to no gain I think.

london-boy

01-Nov-2005, 10:05

My responce was more towards those were it atleast "sounded" that the PS3+Linux = goodbye PC+MS

Sure it couls act as a trojan horse, the question is, how much will it cost?

You see if they sell it, they will have to support it. They will have to see that the programs are all working OK. Especially with free software, that everyone has been touting as the savior of mankind, I really don't expect any form of support from the software manufacturer. So when little Jonny (or whatever his name is) downloads some free program and installes it and messes up the system who to call? Sony, and they will be like :"wtf, we haven't even heard of that program"

And what happens when viruses come out for this thing, because if there is one thing that is certain, is that if it becomes successful, virus will come like flies to honey.

And once again who will be the market? And how would you be able to make money out of them?

The thing is I see a lot of problems associated with this with minisicule benefits for Sony, because in the end of the day, what is the benefit for Sony?

It will be extremely interesting to see after the launch of PS3, how many in this forum will be doing their posting on a their PS3s rather than their PCs...

The PC will probably never "die".
However it's safe to assume that many people will be more than happy with their PS3 in the livingroom, a wireless keyboard and mouse to use on the sofa and do some simple tasks that don't need to be done on a desk.
I would consider using my HDTV for internet browsing and other simple things i do today on my PC. Keep a wireless KB/Mouse there somewhere for when i need it and go from there.
My PC will still be there to be used for all those things you can only do on a PC.

Platon

01-Nov-2005, 10:17

The problem is, you're arguing two different things at the same time. You can't argue one companies desire (to have a monopoly) with what the consumer thinks about it. You should decide what you want to argue:

- Shall we argue the benefits for a company such as Sony to control the livingroom and perhaps grab a bit of share from the PC segment by people that won't need to upgrade their PC anymore to satisfy their basic computer needs (basically email & internet access).

- or shall we argue what's best for the consumer?

The reason that I brought up the monopoly stuff, is because that that is one of the ways that I can find this whole thing being benefitial to Sony. Really, selling a machine at loss (PS3) with free OS and programs, where is the benefit for Sony, other than in the long run maybe becomming a monopoly by itself.

You see a lot of forumers here see MS as the evil empire with a monopoly, so here comes the PS3+Linux to save as all with its free programs, FREE programs. Now maybe Sony is doing all this because they are the holy, good hearted company that people think they are, but I doubt it. So my question is directed to the people here, why is it better to exchange one monopoly to another?

As for the benefits, dissadvantages and what ever else for the general consumer I don't debatte here...

Phil

01-Nov-2005, 10:20

Platon;

No one is talking about selling a full PC with PS3. The general concious is that they will offer very basic functions that will already satisfy a large segment of casuals that simply want to browse the web, check emails or view photos they've just taken moments before from their digital camera (or handycam). Why on earth would they use a PC if all they want is to view their holiday pictures on the TV screen where everyone can join in without being cramped infront of an old computer?

EDIT: JUst saw your reply:

What makes you think the programs are free? As I said, no one is talking about a PS3 that acts like a full PC.

Shifty Geezer

01-Nov-2005, 10:21

So my question is directed to the people here, why is it better to exchange one monopoly to another?Because MS's monopoly has given me so much grief over the years I want a different company to monopolise witha better product. I don't care about monopolies as such. As long as the product is good at a price I think fair, who gives a flying monkey if there's a rival product or not?

london-boy

01-Nov-2005, 10:27

A Monopoly is never good, whether your favourite company is the monopoly or not.

Having said that, I get the feeling that Sony don't want to be a monopoly as much as MS do, or at least they have given me no reason to believe they want to pursue that route, or at least not as much as MS, which have shown over the years very questionable ways to do business to try to become a monopoly.

Shifty Geezer

01-Nov-2005, 10:38

A Monopoly is never good, whether your favourite company is the monopoly or not.Maybe not, but if you are going to have a monopoly, some monopolies are better than others.

london-boy

01-Nov-2005, 10:41

Maybe not, but if you are going to have a monopoly, some monopolies are better than others.

Maybe in the short term you'd enjoy whatever your company gives you, but in the long term, you'd change your mind. Monopolies create all sorts of anti-consumer policies, because the company is in the position to pretty much do whatever they want... Just look at what MS is doing with Windows and their licensing system, just to pick one thing.

Platon

01-Nov-2005, 10:43

I might be missunderstanding this whole thing, but having Linux on the system, doesn't that just open up a whole can a worms. Won't people be able to browse the web, download whatever linux programs, install them and stuff? I could see this working by having something like live which is a closed system, but as far as I know Sony doesn't have that kind of service yet. As for connecting cameras and stuff to the TV dn't they do it by them selfs? Do you need a PS3?...

london-boy

01-Nov-2005, 10:55

one

01-Nov-2005, 10:58

Linux for the PS2 has been available for a while now. It's not an underground hack. It's an official product. My point is that it isn't in Sony best interest to support such business model. They want you to play games (and buy games), they make money on the royalities.

As for dumbing down the app for the mass...it depends on how you define what sort of app the vast majority of users use. Which I belive is still a lot. Browser, word processor, spreadsheet, email, simple photo editing...but still how do they plan to make money?As if selling hardware like Apple / Sun do didn't make money... :shock:

I might be missunderstanding this whole thing, but having Linux on the system, doesn't that just open up a whole can a worms.Cell can run multiple OSs simultaneously... Your Linux in HDD was messed up? Then wipe it, PS3's main realtime OS is always intact in its flash-memory firmware. Linux and other OS are just one of applications on PS3.

rabidrabbit

01-Nov-2005, 11:56

...
Sure it couls act as a trojan horse, the question is, how much will it cost?

You see if they sell it, they will have to support it. They will have to see that the programs are all working OK. Especially with free software, that everyone has been touting as the savior of mankind, I really don't expect any form of support from the software manufacturer. So when little Jonny (or whatever his name is) downloads some free program and installes it and messes up the system who to call? Sony, and they will be like :"wtf, we haven't even heard of that program"
...
I personally don't think they'd allow you to install much software on the PS3 by yourself.

It could come already preinstalled with the needed software by Sony, like a stripped down Sony Vegas video editing suite, some photoeditor/album, music/video players, messaging software, webbrowser/email.
Those would be all the software the average user would need in his/her livingroom.

I don't believe it'll be a full open Linux where you could pretty much install anything you find from the web, but something built upon a Linux core by Sony and maybe in collaboration with IBM.

It would be pretty much a a closed system for the user, only software you'd be able to install would be the official updates by Sony, which might introduce new functuionalities just like the PSP webbrowser update.

That would not need too expensive support. I'd guess the PSP software support is pretty thin too.

Shifty Geezer

01-Nov-2005, 12:01

Maybe in the short term you'd enjoy whatever your company gives you, but in the long term, you'd change your mind. Monopolies create all sorts of anti-consumer policies, because the company is in the position to pretty much do whatever they want... Just look at what MS is doing with Windows and their licensing system, just to pick one thing.Or Sony installing secret hidden rootkit software when you play a music CD...
http://www.sysinternals.com/blog/2005/10/sony-rootkits-and-digital-rights.html

The whole world should boycott all these companies until they decide to behave :evil:

one

01-Nov-2005, 12:15

Or Sony installing secret hidden rootkit software when you play a music CD...
http://www.sysinternals.com/blog/2005/10/sony-rootkits-and-digital-rights.htmlIt looks one of the reasons why you should use Linux instead of Windows. j/k :wink:

Shifty Geezer

01-Nov-2005, 12:16

Well at least is Sony owned the OS they wouldn't feel the need to sneakily control DRM. They could include it as standard :razz:

Platon

01-Nov-2005, 12:19

I'm still not sure what your problem with the whole idea is. If you don't like the idea, don't buy it! Seems like you just don't want to be convinced. If you don't want the thing, you're not interested or just don't want to use a PC-like thing in your livingroom, no one's forcing you.
People are seeing the good side in this, you aren't, whatever we say.

I was just replying to those that said it would act as a PC, I just think it will not. It is not that I don't see the good points in it, because in a perfect world it is an excellent idea, sure it would be cool, to just exit your game for a while, browse the net a bit, maybe looking for tips on the game you are just playing, or talking with some friends over MSN and then go back to play. Having Linux on your system though, being able to install free programs and doing your work there, as people have been suggesting just seems to me as if Sony is begging for trouble with no benefits what so ever for them. Not saying that I am not a pesimist...

london-boy

01-Nov-2005, 12:28

I was just replying to those that said it would act as a PC, I just think it will not. It is not that I don't see the good points in it, because in a perfect world it is an excellent idea, sure it would be cool, to just exit your game for a while, browse the net a bit, maybe looking for tips on the game you are just playing, or talking with some friends over MSN and then go back to play. Having Linux on your system though, being able to install free programs and doing your work there, as people have been suggesting just seems to me as if Sony is begging for trouble with no benefits what so ever for them. Not saying that I am not a pesimist...

That's it, it would most probably not be a "work" thing. It would be a kind of Media Center device, and as such, it could be quite successful.
And even IF it were to become a work thing, why would it hurt Sony? Not many people would use the PS3 to "work", but the whole thing wouldn't "be trouble" for Sony and i'm not sure why you think it would.
It's just an optional feature, much like the Linux kit for PS2, which some people bought to develop their own software and try things out on PS2. It surely didn't hurt Sony, even though only about 10k units were made and sold IIRC.

Shifty Geezer

01-Nov-2005, 13:10

As a work thing, that idea is totally contrary to KK's vision. His original concept was that people were using a computer designed as a workstation for their playing. By his reckoning a computer designed for the activities of 'playing' (all entertainments) would be better suited for the task and to that end developed PlayStation to satisfy the role not ideally solved by the WorkStation.

Turning a PS3, designed for play, media, games, music, hobbies like digital photography, into a machine for work, doing spreadsheets, finances, etc., is contradictory.

TrungGap

01-Nov-2005, 13:10

You're not reading what he's saying. The average user doesn't even know that you can get Linux on PS2, let alone the fact that it's entirely sold through one single website. Not as if the average joe would care anyway, since the majority of people don't know how to use Linux in the first place! The Linux kit is targeted at a very different market segment (hobby programmers and developers), in other words a niche product.

What Vince is talking about is if PS3 can provide built in functionality with PS3 that could make a PC redundant for many of those average users.

Like I said, it's a different business model. If you read my posts, you would realized I covered from free PC companies to dumbing down app on the PS3. However, by doing so, people will buy the machine as an email/browser/etc appliance. It would target a different demographics...ei granda/grandpa, who would less likely to buy large library of games.

TrungGap

01-Nov-2005, 13:20

As if selling hardware like Apple / Sun do didn't make money... :shock:

Totally different business model. They don't sell the hardware at a loss. Eh, I take that back...most of the time they don't sell the hardware at a loss.

Secondly, why would STI want to use PS3 as a computer/workstation? They already have plans for a Cell based workstation...and more importantly a real viable business model. Let's see now how many web/email/etc appliance companies out there are really successful? Very few. There are some in Europe, and its succes has nothing to do with technical power. It's a lot of wheeling and dealing with the public sector.

Carl B

01-Nov-2005, 13:28

Secondly, why would STI want to use PS3 as a computer/workstation? They already have plans for a Cell based workstation...and more importantly a real viable business model. Let's see now how many web/email/etc appliance companies out there are really successful? Very few. There are some in Europe, and its succes has nothing to do with technical power. It's a lot of wheeling and dealing with the public sector.

I don't think that the PS3/Amiga concept would infringe on the 'real' workstation market they are planning to target whatsoever. It simply gives you an option for basic apps functionality for free. It's not going to cost them much (basically nothing) to bundle the OS with the HDD's they sell, and as others have mentioned I'm sure you'll only be able to buy/install what they allow you to download off of their marketplace. Anyway I don't think people will be buying PS3's for this functionality exclusively, but it gives Sony some different angles to play should it catch on.

Certainly some are viewing PSP currently as anything but a games console at the moment.

Anyway I've already expressed my own interest in it, but I understand I might be in a minority. Still, I'm attracted to the notion.

TrungGap

01-Nov-2005, 13:30

Turning a PS3, designed for play, media, games, music, hobbies like digital photography, into a machine for work, doing spreadsheets, finances, etc., is contradictory.

LOL

The whole world should boycott all these companies until they decide to behave

Gasp! Don't tell me you're going to boycott the PS3? OMG I hope you're only boycotting their ill-behaved DRM CDs.

one

01-Nov-2005, 13:37

Totally different business model. They don't sell the hardware at a loss. Eh, I take that back...most of the time they don't sell the hardware at a loss.Well that's not at all related. PS2 might be sold at a loss in its first year, but in the second year it was most likely profitable in the hardware only as the financial data indicates. If they were indeed selling game consoles at a loss throught the entire lifecycle, then just slap an appropriate price tag on PS3 HDD or Cell PC as Apple does with its "overpriced" premium products.

TrungGap

01-Nov-2005, 14:01

nelg

01-Nov-2005, 15:36

Well that's not at all related. PS2 might be sold at a loss in its first year, but in the second year it was most likely profitable in the hardware only as the financial data indicates. If they were indeed selling game consoles at a loss throught the entire lifecycle, then just slap an appropriate price tag on PS3 HDD or Cell PC as Apple does with its "overpriced" premium products.

IIRC that early break even point was related to the cost of manufacturing only. It did not take into account R&D etc. The whole computer business is an extremely low margin one. The disparity in price and components between a console and a PC is at minimum 3x at launch. Are you suggesting that Dell et. all have large gross margins? Sony would be foolish to pursue the idea of selling console hardware, without relying on software sales to generate income, as a viable business strategy. There are far better uses of capital.

one

01-Nov-2005, 15:53

IIRC that early break even point was related to the cost of manufacturing only. It did not take into account R&D etc. The whole computer business is an extremely low margin one. The disparity in price and components between a console and a PC is at minimum 3x at launch. Are you suggesting that Dell et. all have large gross margins? Sony would be foolish to pursue the idea of selling console hardware, without relying on software sales to generate income, as a viable business strategy. There are far better uses of capital.That's because x86 PCs are commodity hardware interchangeable with other IBM PC/AT machines, even parts by parts. Again, look at Apple and then the Cell processor which is not yet broadly available outside of PS3. For those who have no capital to talk with IBM E&TS or Toshiba for their custom Cell solutions, it's a nice idea to tinker with PS3 Linux after trying the Cell simulator on x86/Power.

Also it has a bigger appeal point as some in this thread already suggest - it can play PS3 games after all. Think it like this, no other PC/computer can play PS3 games. If they release real Cell PC with commodity interfaces such as DDR RAM and SATA with which you cannot play PS3 games, then your point may be valid but WRT PS3 + HDD it's not like that. Actually, some of those who have PS3 + HDD and use Linux will buy PS3 games or Sony music and contribute to the royalty business of SCE too, hence the premise of this discussion is already flawed.

nelg

01-Nov-2005, 17:21

That's because x86 PCs are commodity hardware interchangeable with other IBM PC/AT machines, even parts by parts. Again, look at Apple and then the Cell processor which is not yet broadly available outside of PS3. For those who have no capital to talk with IBM E&TS or Toshiba for their custom Cell solutions, it's a nice idea to tinker with PS3 Linux after trying the Cell simulator on x86/Power.

Also it has a bigger appeal point as some in this thread already suggest - it can play PS3 games after all. Think it like this, no other PC/computer can play PS3 games. If they release real Cell PC with commodity interfaces such as DDR RAM and SATA with which you cannot play PS3 games, then your point may be valid but WRT PS3 + HDD it's not like that. Actually, some of those who have PS3 + HDD and use Linux will buy PS3 games or Sony music and contribute to the royalty business of SCE too, hence the premise of this discussion is already flawed.

I think you are missing my point. Indeed look at Apple. They sell their computers with the intent of making money from the actual sale of hardware. It is not sold as a loss to encourage software sales which would produce further revenue. To do this they must charge a price that reflects the true cost of designing and producing it. Add to that other expenses like marketing and profit margins and it is easy to see why the cost of an PC (Apple or otherwise) is generally a multiple of the cost of a console.

Pulling numbers out of thin air lets say for example that STI has spent 2 billion dollars in developing Cell. If they make one hundred million Cells that fixed cost will be $20 per chip. That does not include the cost of fabricating the chip, testing packaging etc. Add in in other cost of making the PS3 like the fees to nV, materials, assembly, shipping, marketing etc. the true cost of manufacturing the PS3 would be , IMHO, over $800. So until Sony could recuperate their initial investment and then produce the hardware for a profit they have no incentive to encourage the use of PS3s for anything other than its intended purpose.

fireshot

01-Nov-2005, 18:33

just a reminder, XMB is not PS3 Linux PC. Sony will market the XMB interface. They are not stupid to put their foot in a PC to PS3 replacement drive for the masses.

out of the box internet is a good thing, and remains a_good_thing. not the Death of PC crap with every new console launch.

will you throw away your PalmPC for a psp?

i thought so.

Squeak

01-Nov-2005, 20:53

Why are you so sure?
Because they already have the basic OS. Dozens of UIs has already been made for Linux, replacing the graphics and tweaking one of them would not be very costly.
Having a big name like Sony behind a UI, would benefit it immensely, making it feel more acceptable to non-savvy users.

It is quite more than that. You seem to have missed customer support in my list for a start.
Customer support would of course be pay per use, as with all other open source/free software.
I'm sorry but I can't take that as an answer.
Well, I’m sorry but I don’t feel like typing up the whole story of microcomputers every time the subject of microsofts monopoly comes up.
Read the posts I referred to on that subject in this thread, they say pretty much all there is to say in this context.
I still haven't seen anyone running Linux on his home PC except for one person, and I personally haven't used it in my entire life. And I'm both a hardcore gamer, an engineer with a degree in computer science, and a 3D artist for a living, so I do know a few people with PCs... Thus I dare say that Linux has totally failed to conquer the home user market. Please list arguments if you disagree.
For applications where security and reliability is at a premium, Linux seems to be the first choice for many. The largest example of that being Google of course.
I have a dualboot machine and I know four people who use Linux only, for moral and technical reasons.
Linux not having had success as a layman OS yet, does not mean that it’s impossible. After all people really don’t care about the OS, as long as the computer behaves and they can learn to use it without too much grief.

Neither would your PS3 play PC games
Most PC games will be released on console at some point anyway.
And please don't think that games and only games have driven the PC's growth - out of hundreds of millions of PCs, less than 10% is DX9 compliant today... but there are many industries that still hunger for more computing and graphics power.
I didn’t talk about the growth of PCs but the power of them (although I admit that wasn’t clear). The vast majority of tasks being performed on PCs today, both in offices and at home, does not require 256Mb GPUs with vertex and pixelshaders or even the features in a humble Intel integrated graphics chip. Neither is 3Ghz CPUs needed for spreadsheets, home video editing, or web browsing.

This is not good for the hardware manufacturers, for the software developers, and for all the workstation/server users of the world. The home PC market is too small to set directions for the entire industry.
You have to start somewhere.
You seem to be suggesting the I’m saying that SCE should take down microsoft in one fell swoop with a PS3 PC.
Not so; getting a good foothold with a new platform today, will take time and ingenuity, two things Sony has lot’s of.

I play different games on the PC, than I would want to on a console...
Because of keyboard and mouse no doubt?

Signal quality isn't an issue for you then? Long cables tend to have a bad effect on it.
Not so with HDMI, being digital.

I'm sorry but you're arguing with small details and fail to convince me about the bigger issues here. Trying to turn the PS3 into a personal computer has no gains for Sony at
all, while it would take a lot of money and other resources to do so, and it wouldn't gain any interest from the vast majority of their market. I can totally understand why some people would like to see it happen, but I don't think that we'll see it...
Again, I’m not suggesting the Sony should really push this hard with all their might, only as an optional extra for people who want it, as a starting point.

BlueTsunami

01-Nov-2005, 21:24

See, heres the thing. As Squeak stated, and I also agree with, Sony isn't pushing with all their might. This is, I believe, a "Why not" type of measure. The Linux OS itself is being made for Developers that need a tangible OS for CELL Workstation and Servers. The OS itself is being tweaked by IBM (So it isn't Sony undertaking the advancment of a Linux/CELL OS).

So if a HDD is being released for the PS3 then why not load a OS being made for Cell workstation that could be loaded on a PS3? It was done with the PS2 (on a more obscure level) and now its being given to the market (emphasis on given). To have a sort of terminal to the internet in my living room where I can do basic functions that involve the internet is what I would love to see. Web TV tried it (I hated the Interface) and it didn't work. Now you have an actual OS to work with and a choice of browsers (and customization).

It also seem like some people commenting on the hardships of Linux have never really sat down and tried to work and learn the OS. The only learning curve required for Linux WAS installing programs but the more user friendly Linux's being released is relieving this by using a package management system. Things should also be much easier given the fact that the PS3 is a closed system so drivers should be a non issue.

I'm very interested to see how the general public reacts to a Linux OS, because honestly...this will be the first time that Linux is given to the general public in this way. It kinda excites me actually.

one

02-Nov-2005, 07:25

So until Sony could recuperate their initial investment and then produce the hardware for a profit they have no incentive to encourage the use of PS3s for anything other than its intended purpose.Then you agree they'd encourage other usage after they could recuperate their investment, that's fine. But think again, do Sony think people are stupid sheeps who have no desire except for gaming? PS3 has abundant computing power, which is a different situation from PS2 which was sluggish to run PS2 Linux with its 32MB RAM. Also the display technology sucked back then, it's a pain in the ass to browse internet on non-fixed-pixel TV. Even then, they talked about the plan of using PS2 for non-gaming usage which failed eventually as you know. You shouldn't waste this computing resource in PS3. Ken Kutaragi sticks to the 'computer' concept and actually says they'll put Linux in HDD as a bonus and popularize PS3 as a serious computer.

Also, how about PSP? They advertise its non-gaming features for months. Check out the other thread about Sony and PS3,
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25163
Loading Linux in HDD is no different from loading movies and TV programs. It's about added values.

Platon

02-Nov-2005, 07:39

Then you agree they'd encourage other usage after they could recuperate their investment, that's fine. But think again, do Sony think people are stupid sheeps who have no desire except for gaming? PS3 has abundant computing power, which is a different situation from PS2 which was sluggish to run PS2 Linux with its 32MB RAM. Also the display technology sucked back then, it's a pain in the ass to browse internet on non-fixed-pixel TV. Even then, they talked about the plan of using PS2 for non-gaming usage which failed eventually as you know. You shouldn't waste this computing resource in PS3. Ken Kutaragi sticks to the 'computer' concept and actually says they'll put Linux in HDD as a bonus and popularize PS3 as a serious computer.

Also, how about PSP? They advertise its non-gaming features for months. Check out the other thread about Sony and PS3,
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25163
Loading Linux in HDD is no different from loading movies and TV programs. It's about added values.

What would be the benefit for Sony if people use the PS3 with Linux as a serious computer for serious work?...

BlueTsunami

02-Nov-2005, 07:43

What would be the benefit for Sony if people use the PS3 with Linux as a serious computer for serious work?...

You could say that its another incentive for the consumer to get a PS3 but there really doesn't seem to be a blaring benefit from it. Maybe some type of royalty or licensing blah blah system gets implimented so they can make some money off it.

one

02-Nov-2005, 07:59

What would be the benefit for Sony if people use the PS3 with Linux as a serious computer for serious work?...It's about install base and side opportunities. Microsoft spreads IE (IE-only webpages) and WMP (WMV). Why not spread PS3 as broadly as possible?

Platon

02-Nov-2005, 10:53

It's about install base and side opportunities. Microsoft spreads IE (IE-only webpages) and WMP (WMV). Why not spread PS3 as broadly as possible?

Well, if people buy the PS3 for serious work and install Linux+programs I see that as something bad for Sony as they might not use it for playing games, which is what earns Sony money. On the contrary this could cost Sony money if they still sell the hardware at a loss...

london-boy

02-Nov-2005, 11:02

True but there would be more PS3's out there.

I think their real target is to get as many units out there to the public as possible, even more than PS2 if they can. They will make money on the hardware eventually, and they always make money from games and movie sales. Plus Sony as a group makes profits from all sorts of products...

Shifty Geezer

02-Nov-2005, 11:11

Well, if people buy the PS3 for serious work and install Linux+programs I see that as something bad for Sony as they might not use it for playing games, which is what earns Sony money. On the contrary this could cost Sony money if they still sell the hardware at a loss...Hmmm, perhaps Sony had better stop producing DVD players that let people watch non-Sony DVDs, as otherwise they buy non-Sony DVDs instead. And they might watch DVDs instead of buying PS2s and playing PS2 games. :p

If people are going to work, they're going to work. If Sony don't provide a product to enable that, they'll buy someone else's product that does. May as well make money selling profitable hardware (which PS3 will be after a while) to these people, plus fit in a lot of other options that these people will spend money on, like BluRay disc player, downloadable content, and games. You never know, supplying a powerful workstation PS3 might get people buying it as such to use it to play games instead!

Phil

02-Nov-2005, 11:46

You're right Shifty. I think Microsoft should stop allowing 3rd party software to be used on Windows as well...

london-boy

02-Nov-2005, 12:05

:lol:

Some people....

Tim

02-Nov-2005, 12:16

Hmmm, perhaps Sony had better stop producing DVD players that let people watch non-Sony DVDs, as otherwise they buy non-Sony DVDs instead. And they might watch DVDs instead of buying PS2s and playing PS2 games. :p

Sony earns money on each DVD-player they sell that will not be the case with the PS3 (atleast not initially) - they need people to buy games. But I really don´t see a point in bying a PS3 for someone that don't play games a Celeron or Sempron based system will in most cases do better.

Platon

02-Nov-2005, 12:20

Hmmm, perhaps Sony had better stop producing DVD players that let people watch non-Sony DVDs, as otherwise they buy non-Sony DVDs instead. And they might watch DVDs instead of buying PS2s and playing PS2 games. :p

If people are going to work, they're going to work. If Sony don't provide a product to enable that, they'll buy someone else's product that does. May as well make money selling profitable hardware (which PS3 will be after a while) to these people, plus fit in a lot of other options that these people will spend money on, like BluRay disc player, downloadable content, and games. You never know, supplying a powerful workstation PS3 might get people buying it as such to use it to play games instead!

Totally different.

Sony makes money on the DVD players they sell, even moreso in the beginning, atleast per unit, while the PS3 will most likely be sold at a loss at least intially and who knows maybe this time around they might have to take losses for longer time in case the xbox360 does really well and they want to stay competitive.

So I don't think their strategy can really built upon them selling the hardware at such a price where they would be making lots and lots of money on the hardware alone, because this time around they might not be able to.

And then wouldn't they have additional costs as they would have to have support for it as a PC as well...

Platon

02-Nov-2005, 12:22

You're right Shifty. I think Microsoft should stop allowing 3rd party software to be used on Windows as well...

They would if they could, don't you think that that would be the ideal situation for them, when everyone will have to buy not only the OS from them, but every single program as well? Talk about earning money...

london-boy

02-Nov-2005, 12:23

Oh will you drop it for God's sake...

I guess whatever we tell you, you won't see the good side in anything related to PS3 so why keep going at it over and over?

Just drop it, we get your point, Sony will make bad decisions whatever they do, thank you.

Phil

02-Nov-2005, 12:26

They would if they could, don't you think that that would be the ideal situation for them, when everyone will have to buy not only the OS from them, but every single program as well? Talk about earning money...

Platon, no offence please, but I think you either have a narrow perception on how economics work (and what companies will do to achieve their goals in short & long distance) or you're simply to stubborn to allow for a decent conversation on the topic. I'm done with this topic, sorry.

one

02-Nov-2005, 12:35

/shrug

Anyway, SCE publishes Cell architecture documents this early before the product launch, which is absolutely unnecessary if they only want users to play games. It may turn out to be the beginning of something Microsoft did with MSDN 15 years ago.

http://cell.scei.co.jp/

Platon

02-Nov-2005, 12:39

Isn't this whole thread a speculatory one? About whether it would be a good idea from Sony to sell and market the PS3 as a general purpose PC? To my knowledge Sony has not gone forward with this idea and I am just speculating on why they will most probably not and why it is a bad idea. I would appreciate answers where people look past "this would be cool, I want something like that" kind of thought and try and see if it makes sense out of a bussines point of view...

Shifty Geezer

02-Nov-2005, 12:44

For some reason I'm feeling a lot more patient than others here for the time being.

Platon : Adding workstation functionality to the PlayStation (making it a universal station, or TheStation perhaps? UbiStation?) adds lots of options for Sony. I hope you see that. They can sell their own software, get a cut of other people's software and media, sell OS upgrades (PS Linux 2000, XP, Vista...), get people who otherwise wouldn't buy a PS3 to buy one for other features, and end up buying games too (how many people bought a PC for wordprcoessing and email, and have gone on to buy Sims without ever intending to buy games? Or bought a mobile phone for phoning and texting and ended up buying games for it?), and so forth.

Yes, if they sell the hardware at a loss and the people buying it don't buy games, that's bad news for Sony. If the first 20 million PS3 are sold to hardcore computer geeks who use them solely for Linux homebrew and don't buy any games, Sony will be in dire straights. Is that really going to happen though? There's any number of things Sony can do wrong if they add Linux+non-game functionality. There's also lots they can do right. If they make the wrong choices, ouchee. But that's the same with all companies. They've all got to make decisions which could be highly profitable or cost them dearly.

I appreciate your POV that adding OS has it's risks, but that's only half the story. There's also potential for lots to gain which you haven't acknowledged yet and seem convinced nothing good can come of this move (if Sony ever makes it).