View Full Version : Havok FX Supports GPU-accelerated Physics
scooby_dooby
27-Oct-2005, 23:41
Havok, developer of middleware physics engines, made some interesting announcements today at the Austin Game Developers Conference, including the development of Havok FX, which will support GPU-accelerated physics.
They also announced a number of Xbox 360 titles that will use Havok's HydraCore multi-threaded system. The titles include: Amped 3
Condemned
NBA Live 06
The Outfit
Perfect Dark Zero
Saint's Row
This might be good news for the X360 if it's CPU is not quite up to snuff for complex pysics.
http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3145117
Well that's cool. I'm not sure how often the GPU will be under-utilized to be able to help out in physics, but I think this whole physics on GPU thing is awesome.
I don't see why you would want to this though while it is nice to have the possibility. I am pretty sure that most devolopers do not want to take the GPU to do stuff that it supposed to run on the CPU. They tend to want the GPU to be used to its fullest potential on graphics.
This might be good news for the X360 if it's CPU is not quite up to snuff for complex pysics.
That statement is wrong. There nothing in the xbox CPU that would make it inherently weaker at physics. peopele took one statement from a software developer and blew it up to mean exactly what it didn't.
They tend to want the GPU to be used to its fullest potential on graphics.
I think they will change their mind, as gfx get better less difference will be seen, we almost reach this level.
Yes there is "Uncanny Valley" but we are not there yet.
mckmas8808
28-Oct-2005, 00:16
Yes there is "Uncanny Valley" but we are not there yet.
Yeah I'm tired of seeing great graphics and weak animation and physics. Go Havok!!
More info (http://www.havok.com/%20index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=187&Itemid=77)
As visual phenomena, physics effects need to be convincingly real but do not profoundly affect game play
Havok FX will target the domain of Effects Physics, and will embrace the momentum and technology behind GPU hardware, as a means of delivering the next level of visual effects in games in a practical and sustainable way.
I wonder if memoexport, and the GPU cache reading will make up for more in game physics...:?:
BTW this make me rememberthose PR from Xenus, about animation or something like.
It is an optional add-on product that game developers will be able to license for their platform or console based games.
mckmas8808
28-Oct-2005, 00:26
As visual phenomena, physics effects need to be convincingly real but do not profoundly affect game play
Who ever made this statement is HORRIBLY incorrect by 1 million miles.:shock:
AlStrong
28-Oct-2005, 00:32
Who ever made this statement is HORRIBLY incorrect by 1 million miles.:shock:
:?:
AFAIK there are only a few games that would be hampered gameplay-wise if they did not have ragdoll.
Kb-Smoker
28-Oct-2005, 00:37
Why would you waste bandwidth to do physics on the GPU?
:?:
The cpu should be able to handle all the physics you want. Seems like they are just trying to down play the new physics chip coming out for PC.
Who ever made this statement is HORRIBLY incorrect by 1 million miles.:shock:
Did you read the link?
If no, read it know, and you will see what they mean.
mckmas8808
28-Oct-2005, 00:50
Did you read the link?
If no, read it know, and you will see what they mean.
No I didn't read the link.:lol: I understand what they are trying to say now. I guess they are saying all physics that change gameplay will be done the CPU.
scificube
28-Oct-2005, 02:45
Why would you waste bandwidth to do physics on the GPU?
:?:
The cpu should be able to handle all the physics you want. Seems like they are just trying to down play the new physics chip coming out for PC.
I agree. I see Havok as making moves to protect their interests. It would appear their talks with Aegia did not go well.
I also tend to wonder how GPUs are going to run both physics and graphics at the same time ...and what will the CPU be doing during all of this? I would like to know if Havok simply isn't invoking a play on words. Like having a means to tie in physics with particles effects etc. where the CPU and GPU do indeed do their traditional tasks but collaborate more efficiently and new ways through their API.
I simply need to be convinced GPUs will EVER have extra power laying around given the empahasis on graphics in games. I also need to be convinced that until real GPGPUs appear that physics related tasks are not better suited to a CPUs greater flexibility.
blakjedi
28-Oct-2005, 03:55
I also tend to wonder how GPUs are going to run both physics and graphics at the same time.
I simply need to be convinced GPUs will EVER have extra power laying around given the empahasis on graphics in games.
Two very good questions. Let's say xenos is setup limited. So if it can only work on 250 million polys yet has the power to actually create and manipulate 500 million (for example) does that equal "excess" power for physics? What is the real reason behind triangle setup limits?
Belmontvedere
28-Oct-2005, 04:38
Havok Website (http://www.havok.com/%20index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=187&Itemid=77)
What hardware will Havok FX™ run on?
Havok FX is designed to support all Shader Model 3.0 graphics cards, though we would recommend higher end models for best performance. We have good relationships with both major vendors and have their hardware in-house. We have working prototypes running on the NVIDIA GeForce 7800 GTX.
...
Why are we standardizing on Shader Model 3.0?
The flexibility, programmability and power available with SM3.0 hardware is programmed both through standard interfaces, DirectX and OpenGL, and more specifically though languages like HLSL and Cg. These are powerful, flexible GPU programming languages, with the backing of industry leaders like Microsoft, Sony Computer Entertainment, NVIDIA, and ATI for use on a range of game platforms and PC configurations.
It sounds like this would work on PS3 too. Sony has already made Havok part of the official PS3 middleware, so... It will be interesting to see how (or if) this is used in future games.
mckmas8808
28-Oct-2005, 05:04
Havok Website (http://www.havok.com/%20index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=187&Itemid=77)
It sounds like this would work on PS3 too. Sony has already made Havok part of the official PS3 middleware, so... It will be interesting to see how (or if) this is used in future games.
Well I thought Havok stated that it will defenitely be used in the PS3.
The GameMaster
28-Oct-2005, 07:29
Two very good questions. Let's say xenos is setup limited. So if it can only work on 250 million polys yet has the power to actually create and manipulate 500 million (for example) does that equal "excess" power for physics? What is the real reason behind triangle setup limits?
A very good observation... while XENOS is capable of performing about 6 billion polygons/sec of performance (assuming all 48 pipelines are used for vertex data), it is setup limited to 500 million (it also possesses a hardware tesselator unit that can produce 250 million polygons on it's own). Of course using all 48 pipelines means no pipelines for processing pixel data, so that is not feasible. One would think that in scenes that are not as pixel shader intensive that there will be quite a lot of left over processing power... and thanks to MEMEXPORT it is quite feasible to use that leftover power for the processing of physics. It could be argued that doing such physics on the GPU is a lot more efficient than normal methods (and more effective than say Ageia's PPU addon) as they can be done with less latency... can't say for sure, but it is an interesting thought.
*EDIT* It does seem they have a workaround for their solution without needing to use MEMEXPORT so it would work on any video card that is SM3.0 capable. I am willing to bet this will be a much more preferable solution to Ageia's solution, especially for those using SLI video cards. I like this solution because it means it can run on multiple hardware and does not require another addon card such as Ageia's (which is not cheap and only works with Ageia's physics SDK). The downside... performance is not guaranteed as it is really scene dependant and hardware may react differently to it (meaning it may not perform as well on one GPU than another).
Shifty Geezer
28-Oct-2005, 10:19
This is demoralizing news. I saw the NBA 2006 vid yesterday and the animation and physics was...non existent. It was chopped up mocap animations all the way. And now I'm told Havok is powering this? It seems to have added nothing.
Hopefully this is just an indictaion of not using the library effectively, rather than the library failing to deliver on all it's promisies. Dunno if Deano can comment how good/bad he's finding Havok and if they're using the animation tools as well?
london-boy
28-Oct-2005, 10:28
I think Endorphin (or whatever it's called) is quite impressing for human animations. There's a game for PS3 and X360 coming out using it and from what i've seen, it's got some amazing animations.
Shifty Geezer
28-Oct-2005, 10:31
There was that zombie game, Possession, that mentioned that. I looked into it and the anims wee good, but not realtime. They used Endorphin to create a load of different anims and then picked the ones they likesd the look of. OF course it's very early days to consider realtime Endorphin algorithmic animations, but I don't think there's anything out there that uses it 'properly' yet. I imagine a 2 character fighter would be the first place to see it.
L_i_n_k
28-Oct-2005, 11:26
There was that zombie game, Possession, that mentioned that. I looked into it and the anims wee good, but not realtime. They used Endorphin to create a load of different anims and then picked the ones they likesd the look of. OF course it's very early days to consider realtime Endorphin algorithmic animations, but I don't think there's anything out there that uses it 'properly' yet. I imagine a 2 character fighter would be the first place to see it.
Fight Night: Round 3 at Sonys E3 Sony Press Conference, potentially had realtime Endorphin algorithmic animations or some similiar tech.
Quicklook bellow. Realtime demostration from E3 sony press conference gives a lot better picture.
http://www.gametrailers.com/player.php?id=5830&type=mov
flick556
28-Oct-2005, 19:09
Allot of animation stuff that the cpu used to try and do has been offloaded to the gpu, so maybe physics and eventually all animation will be handled by the gpu.
Belmontvedere
28-Oct-2005, 21:37
Well I thought Havok stated that it will defenitely be used in the PS3.
Did they? I actually read on some internet forum (this one) in some thread (this one) that it's tech which will be used in next-generation games. Havok seems to be pushing it for future PC games, it will probably (IMO) not be used in console games unless it's terribly useful (apparently you have to pay extra for it).
Shifty Geezer
28-Oct-2005, 23:12
Allot of animation stuff that the cpu used to try and do has been offloaded to the gpu, so maybe physics and eventually all animation will be handled by the gpu.Then what'll be handling the graphics?! :shock: It's not like we've reached perfect graphics with GPU cycles to spare.
Then what'll be handling the graphics?! :shock: It's not like we've reached perfect graphics with GPU cycles to spare.
That is subjective.
ihamoitc2005
29-Oct-2005, 01:23
Then what'll be handling the graphics?! :shock: It's not like we've reached perfect graphics with GPU cycles to spare.
It will surely be design compromise. For cost of a little graphics, game can have much better physics and animation. Therefore, I think (hope) capable developer will try to do this on xbox360. Since most threads used (yet) on Xenon is 4 and shown trailers have unimpressive physics, GPU physics is important for real next gen look.
LightHeaven
29-Oct-2005, 01:26
A very good observation... while XENOS is capable of performing about 6 billion polygons/sec of performance (assuming all 48 pipelines are used for vertex data), it is setup limited to 500 million (it also possesses a hardware tesselator unit that can produce 250 million polygons on it's own). Of course using all 48 pipelines means no pipelines for processing pixel data, so that is not feasible. One would think that in scenes that are not as pixel shader intensive that there will be quite a lot of left over processing power... and thanks to MEMEXPORT it is quite feasible to use that leftover power for the processing of physics. It could be argued that doing such physics on the GPU is a lot more efficient than normal methods (and more effective than say Ageia's PPU addon) as they can be done with less latency... can't say for sure, but it is an interesting thought.
*EDIT* It does seem they have a workaround for their solution without needing to use MEMEXPORT so it would work on any video card that is SM3.0 capable. I am willing to bet this will be a much more preferable solution to Ageia's solution, especially for those using SLI video cards. I like this solution because it means it can run on multiple hardware and does not require another addon card such as Ageia's (which is not cheap and only works with Ageia's physics SDK). The downside... performance is not guaranteed as it is really scene dependant and hardware may react differently to it (meaning it may not perform as well on one GPU than another).
Wait a second... Are you saying that the tessalator in xenos can produce 1 extra vertex per 2 cycles and still have the 500kk limit? I always thought that the tesslator would limit the throughput of vertices to the setup engine by half if used in all cycles... Is this true or the tessalator can actually give an extra of 250kk vertex?
Shifty Geezer
29-Oct-2005, 09:58
It will surely be design compromise. For cost of a little graphics, game can have much better physics and animation. Therefore, I think (hope) capable developer will try to do this on xbox360. Since most threads used (yet) on Xenon is 4 and shown trailers have unimpressive physics, GPU physics is important for real next gen look.The problem I have with this argument is what are the CPU's supposed to do? It's not like XeCPU is incapable tot. It's got a lot of performance to power the games, physics, animation, procedural synthesis and AI and stuff. Now if the GPU is doing rendering, phsysics and animation, that leaves the CPU doing very little. Of course if the animation can be rendered somehow on GPU more effectively than on the CPU it kinda makes sense, and obviously you balance resources of the entire system to get the effect you want. But really, if the GPU is to handle everything related to visuals and physics, that seems to defeat the point of the CPU's in my mind.
The GameMaster
29-Oct-2005, 19:31
Wait a second... Are you saying that the tessalator in xenos can produce 1 extra vertex per 2 cycles and still have the 500kk limit? I always thought that the tesslator would limit the throughput of vertices to the setup engine by half if used in all cycles... Is this true or the tessalator can actually give an extra of 250kk vertex?
Theoretically the tesselator unit can provide 250 MPoly/sec, but I don't think that would be in addition to the 500 MPoly/sec hardware limit... rather towards, as the setup limit still remains. Just means that if used there may be less work that they unified pipelines would have to deal with for geometry. Tesselation is helpful for LOD and should be very helpful for displacement mapping (so you can draw in extra geometry detail into objects). Should be interesting how all of that turns out... XENOS is a geometry monster.
Currently there are no XBox360 games that use the tesselator unit yet as far as I know.
Titanio
29-Oct-2005, 20:05
Just means that if used there may be less work that they unified pipelines would have to deal with for geometry.
Or perhaps, CPU, since I believe tesselation doesn't usually occur in shaders (because they can't, for example, create vertices). It wouldn't spare the vertex/unified shaders their "normal" role.
LightHeaven
31-Oct-2005, 21:00
Theoretically the tesselator unit can provide 250 MPoly/sec, but I don't think that would be in addition to the 500 MPoly/sec hardware limit... rather towards, as the setup limit still remains. Just means that if used there may be less work that they unified pipelines would have to deal with for geometry. Tesselation is helpful for LOD and should be very helpful for displacement mapping (so you can draw in extra geometry detail into objects). Should be interesting how all of that turns out... XENOS is a geometry monster.
Currently there are no XBox360 games that use the tesselator unit yet as far as I know.
No, no, sorry for my bad english but I didnt mean adding 250kk polys to the 500kk limit.
What i thought is that the tessalator would give a 250kk limit to xenos, meaning that when it tessalates the setup engine perfomance drops by half.
And i asked if the statement above is true, or if Xenos can do all the tessalation it wants and still "achieve" the 500kk setup limit.
Because if so, from the roughtly 24 Gflops needed to transform 500 millions vertx only half of that would be needed since the rest of it would come from the tessalator... And that would mean that from utilizing the tessalator as much as you can you would gain a roughtly P4 3.0 Ghz (12 Gflops if i'm not mistaken) just to do for exemple physics on Gpu...
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