Next Gen Panel Discussion

[scooby_dooby]

Great watch, it's mark rein, some guy from bethesda, some guy from obsidian.

Rein calls EA and activision incompetent, he RIPPS nintendo, they discuss the future of games, laugh aboiut the X360 power supply, discuss bluray, all kinds of good stuff

http://media.xbox360.ign.com/articles/661/661361/vids_1.html

edited - mispelled the developers

[BlueTsunami]

This sounds very interesting. Downloading now. I heard about the Nintendo thing...a tramendous kick in the balls :lol:

[orfanotna]

Do you guys know if there's a transcript available? I really don't want to download 150MB..

[pc999]

Or at least can someone say what they say about Nintendo and the future of games, please?

[BlueTsunami]

Or at least can someone say what they say about Nintendo and the future of games, please?

I heard through second hand (in GAF) but Rein basically mowed down the Revolution controller. I'm going to listen to it myself and i'll relay exactly what he says. Unless someone posts it before I do.

[pc999]

I heard through second hand (in GAF) but Rein basically mowed down the Revolution controller. I'm going to listen to it myself and i'll relay exactly what he says. Unless someone posts it before I do.

Thanks:grin: .

[BlueTsunami]

Mark Rein is sort of a pompous ass...he started off by saying that graphics trumps anything basically. That people are trying to find other aspects to throw but all in all, the visuals is where it ends up. Essentially its true, his way of saying it makes him come off kind of...yeah.

I'll update the more I hear. Its interesint to hear what these devs say (or figureheads) but you can see why they don't make alot of public statements :lol:

I've hear EA and Activision about (In a snide goofy voice) Oh its going to take $30 Million dollars to make a game and we'll need 300 people, thats just a bunch of bullshit. There just covering up for their mangement and incompitence...or mismanagment I should say. And the thing is that, our team sizes are only 50% percent higher than it was last generation and we're making fantastic games. Gears of War right now is only 25 people, I mean, thats smaller than most current generation game teams.

I kinda like him.

[AlStrong]

What is the context for calling EA and Activision incompetent?

[BlueTsunami]

What is the context for calling EA and Activision incompetent?

They sort of cut to him saying that, theres no real context (anything that leads into why he said that). That sucks, whoever edited this should have shown why he said it.

BHAHAHAHAHHA Mark Rein had snide smirk on his face when the Obsidian guy started talking about Nintendo.

Don't kid yourself, your going to see more gimick cheep I wish I haden't bough it gimmick games based around the controller than your ever going to possibly imagine. I gurantee you theres going to be alot of people who say the whole reason for this game is for this controller, we made the perfect game for the controller. And all it will be is about the controller, but not necisarilly a great game.

He then tries to prove a point that small percentage of people own JUST a gamecube by having the audience raise their hands. Hes basically saying that developers wouldn't make games for a system that has a small userbase.

[Scott_Arm]

I wish they'd shown more of what people had to say than Mark Rein, or he hogged the whole thing. Honestly, he said everything comes down to visuals in the end, and he's wrong. Everyone I know that plays game thinks that's wrong. Everyone on this forum has probably played a game at some point that blew them away for the first few hours because of spectacular graphics. But once they got past the tech demo aspect of the game they said, "This game f%$&*(# sucks." It's all about gameplay. You can make the prettiest game in the world, but if it plays worse then your old games, you're not going to like it. He slams the Nintendo controller because it won't necessarily lead to great games, and he's right, but he fails to realize that you can't just make pretty games and expect them to be better. Why are NES and SNES emulators so popular? Because those games were fun. People still love to play them. People can look past the graphics when a game is good.

[Scott_Arm]

They sort of cut to him saying that, theres no real context (anything that leads into why he said that). That sucks, whoever edited this should have shown why he said it.

BHAHAHAHAHHA Mark Rein had snide smirk on his face when the Obsidian guy started talking about Nintendo.

I'm not really sure what the point of that panel was. There were little tidbits of good information, like when Mark Rein said Gears of War was made by a small team and small teams could still compete. But, really, the whole argument about which console is better is pretty pointless. It all comes down to which titles are the best, and we won't know until the machines are out. And the best console at launch will not necessarily stay the best console in the long run. All it takes is a few key titles to get everyone jumping ship to another machine.

[BlueTsunami]

Wow...he just blasted the PC market. I'm getting tired of trying to phrase him..but the jist of what he said is that the Xbox360 controller is just fine for playing games AND FPS's. He states that FPS's on the console have sold more on the console market than the PC Market.

[Rur0ni]

Everyone on this forum has probably played a game at some point that blew them away for the first few hours because of spectacular graphics. But once they got past the tech demo aspect of the game they said, "This game f%$&*(# sucks." It's all about gameplay.

That's how I felt when I played Doom 3.

Half-Life 2 and FEAR were an experience though. :)

[Scott_Arm]

That's how I felt when I played Doom 3.

Half-Life 2 and FEAR were an experience though. :)

Don't get my wrong, graphics can add to a game. Half Life 2 was definitely helped by the graphics, but they're not the best I've ever seen and they could have been worse and I still would have had fun playing it. What made the game fun was the interactivity of the game. You could interact with the environment in a way that made the gameplay feel unique. I loved picking up barrels and using them as shields to charge snipers or machine guns. The first game won us over with storytelling and AI, not graphics.

[BlueTsunami]

Mark Rein calmed down near the latter part of the panel video. He does make some good points about Blu-Ray and HDMI but...in all honesty...what he knows about those things can be likened to someone who posts on a message board :lol: . He basically doesn't seem knowledgable on those fronts *shrugs*

[fearsomepirate]

Mark Rein is sort of a pompous ass...he started off by saying that graphics trumps anything basically. That people are trying to find other aspects to throw but all in all, the visuals is where it ends up. Essentially its true, his way of saying it makes him come off kind of...yeah.

That must by why Xbox dominated the console market this generation, N64 pwn3d last generation, and why PC gaming continues to be orders of magnitude more popular than either.

[Carl B]

*edited in lieu of deletion

[Alpha_Spartan]

Great watch, it's mark rein, some guy from bethesda, some guy from obsidian.

Rein calls EA and activision incompetent, he RIPPS nintendo, they discuss the future of games, laugh aboiut the X360 power supply, discuss bluray, all kinds of good stuff

http://media.xbox360.ign.com/articles/661/661361/vids_1.html

edited - mispelled the developers
Cool. Love you. Thanks. Reading now.

[scooby_dooby]

He then tries to prove a point that small percentage of people own JUST a gamecube by having the audience raise their hands. Hes basically saying that developers wouldn't make games for a system that has a small userbase.

No that's not the point. His point was that even though Nintendo makes great games, and that's a given, their games alone are not enough to sell the console to the majority of people.

They were discussing whether the Revolution would have enough really "good" games for the controller, that weren't gimmicky. The point was raised that Nintendo will make some good games for sure, he was simply trying to show that Nintendo's games alone didn't carry the Gamecube very far.

[scooby_dooby]

What is the context for calling EA and Activision incompetent?

He was basically saying all the people claiming that they need 40million dollars to actually MAKE the game, and 300 people teams are full of crap. His own team for GOW is only 25 people, and if EA or Activision claim they need these massive teams for every game, it's simply due to their own mismanagement and "incompetence"

[Almasy]

I didn´t listen to all of it (150MBs is still a big deal to my internet connection), but from what has been posted, I agree. Nintendo´s controller is not something anybody wants, as usual Nintendo fans will modify their tastes to fit with Nintendo´s "vision", however when seeing the market grow every year, with so much variety and content, I can´t help but think that what he proposes is just plain BS, people are not getting tired of games.

The truth is Nintendo can´t compete anymore, hence this lateral move, becoming a niche player with steady profits and a small userbase.

I´m glad Rein had the balls to speak his mind, and criticize if he feels companies are not doing anything right.

[Alpha_Spartan]

Lots of Nintendo fanmonkies in the audience. Matt looked pretty miffed at the Ninty bagging.

[BlueTsunami]

Lots of Nintendo fanmonkies in the audience. Matt looked pretty miffed at the Ninty bagging.

Matt was rightfully miffed, Mark was a total jackass.

[Powderkeg]

Don't get my wrong, graphics can add to a game. Half Life 2 was definitely helped by the graphics, but they're not the best I've ever seen and they could have been worse and I still would have had fun playing it. What made the game fun was the interactivity of the game. You could interact with the environment in a way that made the gameplay feel unique. I loved picking up barrels and using them as shields to charge snipers or machine guns. The first game won us over with storytelling and AI, not graphics.

I think graphics and gameplay are equally important. Clearly it's the gameplay that makes a game great, but these are video games and your connection to the gameworld is via the graphics.

If gameplay alone was all it took we would all still be playing NES games, and when it comes to truly next-gen games, all games are judged by graphics first and foremost.

How many times have you heard someone complain "That doesn't look next-gen" or "It looks like a PC game"? Those complaints are lost sales, and graphics is the reason why.

[Alpha_Spartan]

Matt was rightfully miffed, Mark was a total jackass.
Mark knows what the hell he's talking about. The biggest complaint about games like Perfect Dark Zero is the graphics. I haven't heard much fuss about anything yet. Gears of War looks bland gameplay wise (IMHO), but the press are ticks on Epics nuts because of the graphics. People buy next gen consoles for graphics over anything else. He's right. Denying that is just flat out naive.

Matt is a Ninty fanmonkey. Nintendo hasn't shown shit besides that wacky ass, gimmicky controller. He was right. The controller is a stupid gimmick. Revolution will be relegated to Nintendo's loyal little niche and will be Nintendo's last console.

Mark was spot on with the Blu-Ray deal and nailed the one area that made MS back away from the standard. Everytime I think Blu-Ray I can feel the iron hand of the MPAA on my crotch. The speculation about needing a TV with HDMI input to use it is disturbing as well as the fact that I won't be able to stream BD media to other devices. Ugh.

Mark is a diplomat regarding Xbox 360 vs. PS3. He's also a realist. Anyone expecting a visible difference between both consoles are in for a dissappointment. Graphics will be awesome on both machines. Only negative thing was the "batarang" hate. They aren't even using it on dev kits. There's a 99% chance that Sony will change the design. People hate it. Seriously, I'd rather have a dildo with buttons than that thing.

[Xeno]

Fergus Earnhart and he doesn't talk about NWN 2...Rein taking shots at EA was funny.

[BlueTsunami]

Mark knows what the hell he's talking about. The biggest complaint about games like Perfect Dark Zero is the graphics. I haven't heard much fuss about anything yet. Gears of War looks bland gameplay wise (IMHO), but the press are ticks on Epics nuts because of the graphics. People buy next gen consoles for graphics over anything else. He's right. Denying that is just flat out naive.

Matt is a Ninty fanmonkey. Nintendo hasn't shown shit besides that wacky ass, gimmicky controller. He was right. The controller is a stupid gimmick. Revolution will be relegated to Nintendo's loyal little niche and will be Nintendo's last console.

Your very passionate. Ok...to say the controler *was* gimmicky when the Revolution is to come out next year is totally breaking the time space continuum . Another point, games shouldn't be all about visuals, its that type of skin deep mentality thats start to make people like you very superficial (in the game sector). You get past the shock and aww of video game visuals eventualy...when you do...if the game WAS all visuals...you have an empty shell of a game.

Even if Matt is a "Ninty Fanmonkey" the way Mark was talking about Nintendo WAS inappropriate (although it made me laugh). He does have a point, no matter, but he should have worded everything differently. The way he explained Blu-Ray and HD-DVD is the way he should have voiced his opinion on Nintendo.

Finally, Mark recognized that Nintendo may have a compitent system on their plate. So hes making baseless comments on something he knows nothing about....heh

[Almasy]

Another point, games shouldn't be all about visuals, its that type of skin deep mentality thats start to make people like you very superficial (in the game sector). You get past the shock and aww of video game visuals eventualy...when you do...if the game WAS all visuals...you have an empty shell of a game.

Well, visuals, as someelse stated is how videogames ultimately communicate with the user. Gameplay really matters, but it´s not the one and only aspect of a videogame, there is so much you can do with visuals to attain an important level of atmosphere. You can go past 80´s inspired games where everything works towards the game and start to create a complete experience, something that sticks with you and can mark you as a person. That´s what videogames have been trying to achieve all this time since the 32 bit generation, and we´re getting closer and closer to that. Besides, good visuals are rarely attached to bad games, so they can be indicative of a quality product.

Even if Matt is a "Ninty Fanmonkey" the way Mark was talking about Nintendo WAS inappropriate (although it made me laugh). He does have a point, no matter, but he should have worded everything differently. The way he explained Blu-Ray and HD-DVD is the way he should have voiced his opinion on Nintendo.

Why should he change his wording if that is how he really feels about the console? It´s a very valid point of view, only Nintendo fanmonkeys ultimately want revolution because they have to.

[BlueTsunami]

Why should he change his wording if that is how he really feels about the console? It´s a very valid point of view, only Nintendo fanmonkeys ultimately want revolution because they have to.

He came off as obnoxious. Sure, he can say it the way he wants (like I said, I laughed) but with most people, it will probably negate what he said because of the obnoxiousness.

[robofunk]

Mark knows what the hell he's talking about. The biggest complaint about games like Perfect Dark Zero is the graphics. I haven't heard much fuss about anything yet. Gears of War looks bland gameplay wise (IMHO), but the press are ticks on Epics nuts because of the graphics. People buy next gen consoles for graphics over anything else. He's right. Denying that is just flat out naive.

Matt is a Ninty fanmonkey. Nintendo hasn't shown shit besides that wacky ass, gimmicky controller. He was right. The controller is a stupid gimmick. Revolution will be relegated to Nintendo's loyal little niche and will be Nintendo's last console.

Mark was spot on with the Blu-Ray deal and nailed the one area that made MS back away from the standard. Everytime I think Blu-Ray I can feel the iron hand of the MPAA on my crotch. The speculation about needing a TV with HDMI input to use it is disturbing as well as the fact that I won't be able to stream BD media to other devices. Ugh.

Mark is a diplomat regarding Xbox 360 vs. PS3. He's also a realist. Anyone expecting a visible difference between both consoles are in for a dissappointment. Graphics will be awesome on both machines. Only negative thing was the "batarang" hate. They aren't even using it on dev kits. There's a 99% chance that Sony will change the design. People hate it. Seriously, I'd rather have a dildo with buttons than that thing.

Anyone remember the one Southpark episode where Mr. Garrison invents a new super efficient form of transportation, the downside being you had to take it up the ass and mouth to ride the thing. This is what the Revolution controller is to me. Sometimes when I play console games I just want to lay down on my couch and have a relaxing game, I don't see this being possible with this controller. Even if it does prove to be less of a hassle then it seems if I notice anything wrong with the accuracy and predictability of any controller then its a deal breaker.

[Almasy]

He came off as obnoxious. Sure, he can say it the way he wants (like I said, I laughed) but with most people, it will probably negate what he said because of the obnoxiousness.

It doesn´t really matter if he was obnoxious or not, what´s significant is the idea Of course, that way of saying things can lead you to trouble, but I believe that as long as the concept is ok, you act however you like and that won´t change the real content of what you´re saying.

Besides, it´s time someone important in the industry spoke out loud what many of us have been thinking, that Revolution´s controller is simply a bad idea and will only attract simple game types.

[BlueTsunami]

It doesn´t really matter if he was obnoxious or not, what´s significant is the idea Of course, that way of saying things can lead you to trouble, but I believe that as long as the concept is ok, you act however you like and that won´t change the real content of what you´re saying.

Besides, it´s time someone important in the industry spoke out loud what many of us have been thinking, that Revolution´s controller is simply a bad idea and will only attract simple game types.

I just want to point out that the attachment system nullifies everything he says. Nintendo has the ability to allow a peripheral to be a wavebird controller of some sort. Theres that type of open option that I believe will allow Nintendo to outreach to 3rd party developers that have issues with the controller itself.

Basically, making blanket comments like that (in an obnoxious manner) is a bad thing, especially when everything is so secretive.

[robofunk]

I just want to point out that the attachment system nullifies everything he says. Nintendo has the ability to allow a peripheral to be a wavebird controller of some sort. Theres that type of open option that I believe will allow Nintendo to outreach to 3rd party developers that have issues with the controller itself.

Basically, making blanket comments like that (in an obnoxious manner) is a bad thing, especially when everything is so secretive.

But will this attachment ship standard with every system and extra controller? If not there is a lot of hassle in playing games the way they should be played especially if your talking about multiplayer.

[BlueTsunami]

But will this attachment ship standard with every system and extra controller? If not there is a lot of hassle in playing games the way they should be played especially if your talking about multiplayer.

Yeah, thats true. But for Nintendo's own sake, they better do something to extend an olive branch to 3rd party companies. I guess since their still making a profit off hardware and games...its ok with them. So its probably all a non issue to Nintendo.

[Inane_Dork]

I definitely got the sense that Matt was playing defense the whole time. And while Rein has a much bigger mouth than I'd like (which I've stated before but few agreed), he's not without point. He said we'll probably get a bunch of games that are billed as revolutions but are gimmicks. He also said that Nintendo just doesn't make bad games (which is extending a fair amount of grace N's way, I might add). And so he's against the Rev?

Look past the blustery appearance and focus on the words. They're not so unbelievable. Matt could not, obviously, as he claimed Metroid Prime 3 would rock as if it was some slam against Rein. But Rein already praised Nintendo, so MP3 (no pun intended) rocking is merely agreeing with him.

[hey69]

I think graphics and gameplay are equally important. Clearly it's the gameplay that makes a game great, but these are video games and your connection to the gameworld is via the graphics.

If gameplay alone was all it took we would all still be playing NES games, and when it comes to truly next-gen games, all games are judged by graphics first and foremost.

How many times have you heard someone complain "That doesn't look next-gen" or "It looks like a PC game"? Those complaints are lost sales, and graphics is the reason why.

that sir is 100% correct!


Garrison invents a new super efficient form of transportation, the downside being you had to take it up the ass and mouth to ride the thing
one of my favourites! i laughed so hard the first time i saw it...

[mckmas8808]

That was a pretty good panel discussion. I wish the Ageia guy could have spoke more but hey what can you do. I pretty much feel like everyone here and will say that Mark was an ass, but he was right. I wish they could have asked them if they thought Killzone on the PS3 was doable.:twisted:

[one]

Aside from the effect Rein's acid talk had at the event, what I'm interested in is if Epic supplies UE3 for Revolution or not. If the spec of Nintendo's console doesn't match the requirement of UE3 (GF6800) then there's nothing for Mark Rein to worry about in ripping Nintendo.

[pc999]

Thanks.

I do disagree with M. Rein gfx arent the only reason why we get next gen consoles, it is if the only difference between consoles is specs like it happens with XB-XB360, in the end you will play games just like XB, even GoW (which seems a very nice game IMO) is using beefed up mechanics from XB games mixing and etc... but noting really new, after that we can only hope some work around the 2 shoulder buttoms and AI, in the end the ONLY new thing in XB360 are specs so one will buy for specs upgrade. BTW is DS still outselling PSP?

The only times here I/we saw massive innovation has been when a new standard controler had come and for me it was in N64 (the 3D gfx also helped a lot), the console is full of classics that depends from the innovation of putting a joystick in the controller, in fact GoW/UC would not be possible without that, so putting controller as a minor feature is sad IMO, at the begining it seems is just holding is interest, I wonder if someday their engine end on the Rev what will he say.

On the otther side it seems that he prove that small teams still are able to play a part in next gen which is a very good thing (hope that isnt only after spending 1M in UE3:lol: ).

Anyway seems a nice panel.

[pc999]

Aside from the effect Rein's acid talk had at the event, what I'm interested in is if Epic supplies UE3 for Revolution or not. If the spec of Nintendo's console doesn't match the requirement of UE3 (GF6800) then there's nothing for Mark Rein to worry about in ripping Nintendo.

Inst supposed to run on a 9800 (from b3d interviewn) at 640X480 (even if things like HDR suffer), or a 6600 (from somehere, I dont remember), if not, UE3 games will have hard time selling, I guess:?:

[Scott_Arm]

I think graphics and gameplay are equally important. Clearly it's the gameplay that makes a game great, but these are video games and your connection to the gameworld is via the graphics.

If gameplay alone was all it took we would all still be playing NES games, and when it comes to truly next-gen games, all games are judged by graphics first and foremost.

How many times have you heard someone complain "That doesn't look next-gen" or "It looks like a PC game"? Those complaints are lost sales, and graphics is the reason why.

I'm not sure I totally agree. Graphics are important, for sure. If a game looks like complete crap it will be hard to play. But, the graphics don't have to be cutting edge, just acceptable, and the gameplay will keep people playing. If you give someone a cutting edge game, that has horrible gameplay, they'll be bored once the tech-demo aspect wears off. Most games that people play over and over and over again have solid gameplay. I can't think of a single game that I've purchased just because of the graphics or played over again just because of the graphics. Graphics are just one small facet of a game along with control, sound, story, uniqueness etc.

I'm not sure why anyone is ripping on the Rev controller. It's pretty hard to pass any kind of judgement until there are some games. If people can't think of any really good uses for it, then it's a failure. If it offers good gameplay then it's a success. I'm interested in trying it, for sure. A lot of people I know are. You can't slam it for being a gimmick, because we haven't seen how people will be using it. Most games are gimmicks anyway. They copy 90% of another game, and then throw in a few new graphics tricks, a couple nifty moves you can do with your character and then tell you it's an entirely new game.

[Shifty Geezer]

Most games that people play over and over and over again have solid gameplay. I can't think of a single game that I've purchased just because of the graphics or played over again just because of the graphics.I know I've overlooked a game because of graphics, and I'm sure the majority of gamers have done similarly. When you're in a shop all you have to choose from what's on offer is a blurb that also says it's a great game, and screenshots. Perhaps it's an assumption that quality visuals mean effort has been put into the game = better game overall? Or maybe just because with nothing other than screenshots able to be put into the back of a box, it's the only way to choose unless you're a frequenter of gaming websites.

[Brimstone]

Nintendo's claim that the controller is going to help it reach a new massive audience is hard to believe. It's graphics that gets people excited about every new console generation. ATI and nVidia have soared in value due to the importance of graphics because consummers demand them. Mark Reins main point I thought was Nintendo's extreme focus on the controller, and Nintendo placing a lower value on having a CPU and GPU of comparable power.

To me right now, the Sony Eyetoy 2 information that was released a while back is very intresting. I won't be shocked if the PS3 gamepad in some way has the option to work a bit like the revolution controller, but with Eyetoy 2 in mind. If this turns out to be true, what is Nintendo going to claim that makes there system stand out?

[hadareud]

Strange that no one has yet mentioned that Rein said that PS3 and Xbox360 are very comparable in power. Guess this got lost in the whole Revolution controller thing ...

[Powderkeg]

Strange that no one has yet mentioned that Rein said that PS3 and Xbox360 are very comparable in power. Guess this got lost in the whole Revolution controller thing ...

That's because most reasonable people expected that much.

[Shifty Geezer]

To me right now, the Sony Eyetoy 2 information that was released a while back is very intresting. I won't be shocked if the PS3 gamepad in some way has the option to work a bit like the revolution controller, but with Eyetoy 2 in mind. If this turns out to be true, what is Nintendo going to claim that makes there system stand out?Intersting idea. They could have the left side of the controller fluorescent green and the right side fluorescent orange for tilt sensitivity... :D

[Teasy]

I might watch the video later to have a good laugh at Steve Ballmer.. er I mean Mark Rein. Until then though I'll say one thing. So its not hard to see why a big wig at one of the most uncreative and unimaginative developers around wouldn't be interested in the Rev controller. Especially since Mr Rein has never used the Rev controller..

[Powderkeg]

I'm not sure I totally agree. Graphics are important, for sure. If a game looks like complete crap it will be hard to play. But, the graphics don't have to be cutting edge, just acceptable, and the gameplay will keep people playing. If you give someone a cutting edge game, that has horrible gameplay, they'll be bored once the tech-demo aspect wears off. Most games that people play over and over and over again have solid gameplay. I can't think of a single game that I've purchased just because of the graphics or played over again just because of the graphics. Graphics are just one small facet of a game along with control, sound, story, uniqueness etc.

Interesting comparison. A game can have acceptable graphics and be OK, but if it has horrible gameplay it will be bad.

What if it has horrible graphics? Not just mediocre, I'm talking just plain ugly. Would you still be interested? Would you buy Gran Turismo 5 with PSOne quality graphics?

What if it has fantastic graphics and acceptable gameplay? Madden on a next-gen console for instance. The gameplay really isn't any different, it's the graphics that makes it new.

The number of games with truly great gameplay is very very small. For the vast majority of simply "good" games, the gameplay will be acceptable, and the graphics will make or break the game in sales.

I can assure you Looking Glass Studios didn't shut down because their gameplay was lacking in an way. they shut down because their graphics weren't good enough.

[[maven]]

Mark Rein may be a nice guy, but he's certainly full of shit on this one. He's pissed because Sony and Microsoft courted Epic to get the Unreal Engine 3 tech onto their systems - and to be fair, it's probably the best game engine out there for either next-gen platform right now - but Nintendo don't really care. Nintendo doing well is bad for Epic's business, so Mark has a vested interest in saying that they're shit. That's all there is to this.

Oh, and what was the last innovative game from Epic?

[hey69]

He's pissed because Sony and Microsoft courted Epic to get the Unreal Engine 3 tech onto their systems
what how? explain this please

[Black Dragon37]

Here I am... just waiting for it to download... :p

[Alpha_Spartan]

Strange that no one has yet mentioned that Rein said that PS3 and Xbox360 are very comparable in power. Guess this got lost in the whole Revolution controller thing ...
I mentioned it. I believe that multi-console games will look alike and games like MGS4 and Halo 3 will look equally impressive.

[Nite_Hawk]

Strange that no one has yet mentioned that Rein said that PS3 and Xbox360 are very comparable in power. Guess this got lost in the whole Revolution controller thing ...

Notice how people who develop for both consoles tend to error on the side of "they are close the same amount of power", while developers who develop on one console tend to error on the side of "my console is more powerful than their console!"?

Nite_Hawk

[Alpha_Spartan]

Notice how people who develop for both consoles tend to error on the side of "they are close the same amount of power", while developers who develop on one console tend to error on the side of "my console is more powerful than their console!"?

Nite_Hawk
The scientific term for this behavior is "Moneyhat-itis".

[Scott_Arm]

Interesting comparison. A game can have acceptable graphics and be OK, but if it has horrible gameplay it will be bad.

What if it has horrible graphics? Not just mediocre, I'm talking just plain ugly. Would you still be interested? Would you buy Gran Turismo 5 with PSOne quality graphics?

What if it has fantastic graphics and acceptable gameplay? Madden on a next-gen console for instance. The gameplay really isn't any different, it's the graphics that makes it new.

The number of games with truly great gameplay is very very small. For the vast majority of simply "good" games, the gameplay will be acceptable, and the graphics will make or break the game in sales.

I can assure you Looking Glass Studios didn't shut down because their gameplay was lacking in an way. they shut down because their graphics weren't good enough.


Well, graphics cannot overcome a bad game. Good gameplay can overcome bad graphics, or sub-par graphics, at least. Tons of people jumped into the world of mmorpgs when the graphics were quite far behind other games on the market, because the gameplay was something new and exciting. Tons of people still play Tetris, which is in no way visually exciting. Tons of people use emulators to play old NES, SNES, arcade games on their PS2s, Xboxs or PCs because the games are good. You make a good point about box art for people that are window shopping. If all you have to judge the game by is the graphics, then you're probably going to pick the one that looks better. But, a lot of people buy games based on reviews or word of mouth, and games that are fun to play will always benefit from word of mouth. I've never had someone recommend that I buy a game to look at the graphics, even though it wasn't a very good game.

[london-boy]

The problem these days is that a game with good graphics but bad gameplay will almost always sell much more than a game with bad graphics but good gameplay.

[Black Dragon37]

The problem these days is that a game with good graphics but bad gameplay will almost always sell much more than a game with bad graphics but good gameplay.
Which pretty much ties to Mark Rein's comments on graphics being the most important aspect of a game.

[Carl B]

I do find some holes in his logic though.

Like when he asks who owns a GameCube, and then refines it to who only owns a GameCube because the initial showing was too strong. Well - he makes the implication that the GameCube installed base is thus 10%, and developers are not going to target that - when in fact the installed base is much greater, and I think we can all agree that nobody bought the GameCube for the cross-console titles; they bought it for the exclusives.

[NavNucST3]

I do find some holes in his logic though.

Like when he asks who owns a GameCube, and then refines it to who only owns a GameCube because the initial showing was too strong. Well - he makes the implication that the GameCube installed base is thus 10%, and developers are not going to target that - when in fact the installed base is much greater, and I think we can all agree that nobody bought the GameCube for the cross-console titles; they bought it for the exclusives.

I think the intention was to show that, the GameCube by itself was the secondary console for most people, much the way the Rev is setting itself up to be; so as a developer, how much manpower do you want to dump into a console that has (using his numbers) 10% of that crowd that ONLY own the GC. Since that larger showing of hands must have owned an Xbox and/or PS2, you would naturally dev for those, because that larger number didn't even include those that own PS2/Xbox exclusively.

[<nu>faust]

When you are in a show(that is targeted toward hardcore gamers) in US (where %27 of the ppl who have xboxes) saying stuff like nintendo missed the boat and rev controller is gimmick is somehow understandable, but could he say the same things if they were in japan or would the things he said make sense?(where xbox has %2-3 of market share)Graphics this, graphics that, blah blah....Okay so i got some questions for him: what is the best selling franchise on pc? Is it the most graphically advanced,most cinematic looking game? Nope It's the sims. How many copies of pokemon has been sold to this day?Tens of millions. How much money ms lost in 4 years with its xbox project ? 4 billion How much nintendo lost? None. Whats nintendo's current market share in console gaming(including handelds) % 40.How much is xbox's ?%22 of console market. How many units a non-traditional "game" like nintendogs sold in a months only in japan? 400.000.

[Carl B]

I think the intention was to show that, the GameCube by itself was the secondary console for most people, much the way the Rev is setting itself up to be; so as a developer, how much manpower do you want to dump into a console that has (using his numbers) 10% of that crowd that ONLY own the GC. Since that larger showing of hands must have owned an Xbox and/or PS2, you would naturally dev for those, because that larger number didn't even include those that own PS2/Xbox exclusively.

Well, I know what his intention was, but I just think he fell a little short of that goal with the initial question. His implication is that development for the Rev is not a financially viable option - but who knows, with less costly development overall and no need to pay out the $1 million for UE3, it might be viable yet. ;)

I mean I'm getting the console myself, so certainly I'm looking forward somewhat to the 'cheap gimmiks.'

[scooby_dooby]

I do find some holes in his logic though.

Like when he asks who owns a GameCube, and then refines it to who only owns a GameCube because the initial showing was too strong. Well - he makes the implication that the GameCube installed base is thus 10%, and developers are not going to target that - when in fact the installed base is much greater, and I think we can all agree that nobody bought the GameCube for the cross-console titles; they bought it for the exclusives.

His entire point is that ONLY 10% bought it for the exclusives. He never says that developers won't support rev, I don't know where you guys get that impression.

Remember this is in context of "will the Rev have enough good games?" His answer, well Nintendo will make some damn good games, but Nintendo's games can only take them so far(i.e. 10% of people only own gamecube.) The rest of them will be mostly "gimmicky" in his opinion.

[Carl B]

His entire point is that ONLY 10% bought it for the exclusives. He never says that developers won't support rev, I don't know where you guys get that impression.

Remember this is in context of "will the Rev have enough good games?" His answer, well Nintendo will make some damn good games, but Nintendo's games can only take them so far(i.e. 10% of people only own gamecube.) The rest of them will be mostly "gimmicky" in his opinion.

I consider that completely wrong. IMO, 10% DIDN'T buy it for the exclusives. The rest who own it, did. If not every single person that owns it.

If *that* was his argument, that only 10% bought it for the exclusives, then his logic is totally messed up.

For example:

I own PS2. Why would I buy GameCube? There's only one answer: the exclusives. I mean, how easy is that logic? I'm not going to buy it for the cross-console titles, that's for sure. Because I already own another console that I could buy those same games on.

[SirTendeth]

The 10% was refering to the overall console market, not the percentage of GC owners. So he was agreeing with your assesment.

[Carl B]

The 10% was refering to the overall console market, not the percentage of GC owners. So he was agreeing with your assesment.

No, he wasn't.

Some points:

Scooby: His answer, well Nintendo will make some damn good games, but Nintendo's games can only take them so far(i.e. 10% of people only own gamecube.)

Me: I own PS2. Why would I buy GameCube? There's only one answer: the exclusives.

My point I am making is that *anyone* that owns a GameCube probably owns it for the exclusives, not just the 10% who only own a GameCube. I mean, I think I'm making sense here, right?

[see colon]

... and I think we can all agree that nobody bought the GameCube for the cross-console titles; they bought it for the exclusives.
i've owned all 3 current generation consoles from almost launch, and right now, i'm only buying cross platform games on the GC and PS2. why? because nintendo and sony have promised a decent percentage of backwards compatability out of the box, and MS's coverage will be spotty, at least at first. i might have picked up my GC for the exclusives, but i find myself picking up more cross platform games because i'll have a longer window of opportunity to play them, without the hassle of digging out my old consoles.

about graphics being everything...
GTA3 features boxy environments, boxy characters, boxy cars, and blurry textures, but ended up being the defining game of this generation. almost every genre has tried to offer the "open world" style of play GTA has offered. everything from racing games and GTA clones (a given) to superhero and cartoon games (spider-man 2, hulk, simpsons), extreme sports games (tony hawk), and even activist titles (Steer Madness).

Katamari Damacy also made a name for itself this generation, and it features simple graphics but rewarding gameplay.

[Brimstone]

I do find some holes in his logic though.

Like when he asks who owns a GameCube, and then refines it to who only owns a GameCube because the initial showing was too strong. Well - he makes the implication that the GameCube installed base is thus 10%, and developers are not going to target that - when in fact the installed base is much greater, and I think we can all agree that nobody bought the GameCube for the cross-console titles; they bought it for the exclusives.

Isn't that sort of the point? When big multi-platform games are released, most don't sell that well on the Gamecube, while the X-Box and PS2 sell decent numbers. Publishers have pulled back on the Gamecube because it is effectivley 10%.

If they bought it for the Nintendo exclusives, they'll do the same thing regardless of the controller for their next-gen console. So the controller is targeted at consumers that didn't buy a Gamecube this generation, do you really think they'll go for Nintendo because of the new style of control?

[Carl B]

Isn't that sort of the point? When big multi-platform games are released, most don't sell that well on the Gamecube, while the X-Box and PS2 sell decent numbers. Publishers have pulled back on the Gamecube because it is effectivley 10%.

If they bought it for the Nintendo exclusives, they'll do the same thing regardless of the controller for their next-gen console. So the controller is targeted at consumers that didn't buy a Gamecube this generation, do you really think they'll go for Nintendo because of the new style of control?

Ok maybe I'm missing something here. Aren't we just talking about third-party developer support for Rev in general? I never approached the situation saying that Rev would make a 'comfortable' place for a dev to put their cross-console title (though that prototype 'standard' controller add-on for Rev could alleviate that) I was simply giving the reasons why developing an exclusive title on the Rev wouldn't be akin to 'suicide' as Rein seems to imply.

I see the Rev as similar to the console world's DS. DS has surprisingly strong third party support, and if the Rev is cheap to develop for, I don't see why Rev also wouldn't have a line of short, enjoyable, exclusive titles.

My only issue with this '10%' thing is the notion that Nintendo-style gameplay only works to drive the minority of GameCube sales - aka the GameCube only set - where on the contrary I feel it drives the majority.

In the poll we recently did here, weren't the majority of future Rev owners buying another console as well? Now - who among us was not buying the Rev for potential exclusive Nintendo content and wacky gameplay?

[Powderkeg]

Well, graphics cannot overcome a bad game. Good gameplay can overcome bad graphics, or sub-par graphics, at least. Tons of people jumped into the world of mmorpgs when the graphics were quite far behind other games on the market, because the gameplay was something new and exciting. Tons of people still play Tetris, which is in no way visually exciting. Tons of people use emulators to play old NES, SNES, arcade games on their PS2s, Xboxs or PCs because the games are good.

And how much of the gaming market would you honestly say these people represent? 1%? maybe 2%

You make a good point about box art for people that are window shopping. If all you have to judge the game by is the graphics, then you're probably going to pick the one that looks better. But, a lot of people buy games based on reviews or word of mouth, and games that are fun to play will always benefit from word of mouth. I've never had someone recommend that I buy a game to look at the graphics, even though it wasn't a very good game.

And I can say the reverse. I've never had someone recommend the most god-aweful ugly game just because the gameplay was good.

Like I said, they are equally important. If either one flat out sucks the game will not sell. Great games are games with both great graphics and great gameplay, good games are games where one or the other is lacking somewhat, and bad games have failed miserably in one of those two aspects, or both.

[NavNucST3]

xbd, I'm pretty sure I understand your point.

I guess I am on the flip side of things where I don't think everything N makes is great or even good half the time. If I get a Rev, it will be once it hits the $100 mark.

To be honest, I am hoping Live! Arcade will fill my void for classic gaming and simple, yet fun gameplay. I'm pretty sure I will be playing Wik and Outpost Kaloki X for hours on end and probably Geometry Wars, as well, that is assuming I can get my wife off of Hexic or some word puzzle game.
(http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/660/660260p1.html)

[Shifty Geezer]

xbdestroy : I agree wtih your reasoning here. Why else buy a GC if you already own a console, unless for the exclusives? So the market for Revolution exclsuives should be everyone with two consoles including a GC. From the poll here we saw that was the case, and it seems plausible a substantial number of people will have a Revolution alongside their other system, making a plentifully large-enough userbase for any party to develop for.

[scooby_dooby]

Ya I'm really loking forward to playing alot of Demo's from XBLive Arcade, sounds like a great time waster....

[Brimstone]

Ok maybe I'm missing something here. Aren't we just talking about third-party developer support for Rev in general? I never approached the situation saying that Rev would make a 'comfortable' place for a dev to put their cross-console title (though that prototype 'standard' controller add-on for Rev could alleviate that) I was simply giving the reasons why developing an exclusive title on the Rev wouldn't be akin to 'suicide' as Rein seems to imply.

I see the Rev as similar to the console world's DS. DS has surprisingly strong third party support, and if the Rev is cheap to develop for, I don't see why Rev also wouldn't have a line of short, enjoyable, exclusive titles.

My only issue with this '10%' thing is the notion that Nintendo-style gameplay only works to drive the minority of GameCube sales - aka the GameCube only set - where on the contrary I feel it drives the majority.

In the poll we recently did here, weren't the majority of future Rev owners buying another console as well? Now - who among us was not buying the Rev for potential exclusive Nintendo content and wacky gameplay?

It's a hit driven buisness. For a publisher to commit resources to a platform like revolution and take advantage of the controller is taking away from 2 other platforms userbase. Once you make your unique game, your faced with competing with high quality Nintendo first/second party games. It's not so much they'll lose money on the Revolution, it's that they would have made more money by concentrating on PS3 and Xbox 360.

Programmers and artists are in short supply. It's taking a risk not having them commited to the other platforms making the games as good as they can be.

And as far as porting games with a regular control scheme, Nintendo is going to have the weaker hardware, so a person that owns Revolution and PS3/XB360 is going to pick up the PS3/XB360 version.

[Shifty Geezer]

It's a hit driven buisness. For a publisher to commit resources to a platform like revolution and take advantage of the controller is taking away from 2 other platforms userbase. Once you make your unique game, your faced with competing with high quality Nintendo first/second party games. It's not so much they'll lose money on the Revolution, it's that they would have made more money by concentrating on PS3 and Xbox 360.True, but that didn't impact PS2's exclusive lineup. Plenty of developers went ahead against stiff competition, and that was before there were 90 million machines sold.

[AlStrong]

Ya I'm really loking forward to playing alot of Demo's from XBLive Arcade, sounds like a great time waster....


Come on, Bejeweled on the big screen FFS! :D



....which is already on XBLA...

What they really need are all the arcade games from the early nineties...like Simpsons and Golden Axe

[Mefisutoferesu]

This is ridiculous! That little hand raise excerise was nothing more than BS statisitcs. Who goes to these events? Hardcore gamers or your average console gaming joe? Let's say hardcore. Now, again another assumption, your average hardcore gamer is spilt into 2 groups those who buy any console as long as there is a good game for it and those who hold steadfast love for a console. These assumptions I think are logical given that your average gamer doesn't give a piddlywink about gaming panels. What we have here is a sample, possibly poor since the draw is next gen Xbox, of the HARDCORE gaming population. As a result it's much more likely that these guys would own multiple consoles. As such, you're probably more likely to get a small percentage of people owning any 1 console. Trying to single out Nintendo without posing the same question to others is ridiculous. I'm willing to lay down 10 dollars, that if he asked the same set of questions for XBox and PS2 (remember PS2's numbers come from the average gamer not the hardcore... we are NOT legion) he'd get the same blessed numbers. This is silly, and the fact that someone like Mark Rein (who I imagine is a rather smart guy) wouldn't realize that just smacks of him going after Nintendo.

[BlueTsunami]

This is ridiculous! That little hand raise excerise was nothing more than BS statisitcs. Who goes to these events? Hardcore gamers or your average console gaming joe? Let's say hardcore. Now, again another assumption, your average hardcore gamer is spilt into 2 groups those who buy any console as long as there is a good game for it and those who hold steadfast love for a console. These assumptions I think are logical given that your average gamer doesn't give a piddlywink about gaming panels. What we have here is a sample, possibly poor since the draw is next gen Xbox, of the HARDCORE gaming population. As a result it's much more likely that these guys would own multiple consoles. As such, you're probably more likely to get a small percentage of people owning any 1 console. Trying to single out Nintendo without posing the same question to others is ridiculous. I'm willing to lay down 10 dollars, that if he asked the same set of questions for XBox and PS2 (remember PS2's numbers come from the average gamer not the hardcore... we are NOT legion) he'd get the same blessed numbers. This is silly, and the fact that someone like Mark Rein (who I imagine is a rather smart guy) wouldn't realize that just smacks of him going after Nintendo.

The fact that Mark actually had to switch up from "Owning a Gamecube" to "Only owning a Gamecube" you can tell that his poll came back to bite him in the ass. Gamecube IS the secondary console someone gets...I mean..its fricking $99 right now, get that Wind Waker, Mario Sunshine, Fire Emblem etc etc. Mark Rein just tried to put the Gamecube and Nintendo in a bad light when in actuality its not as bad as he tried to portray.

[Scott_Arm]

And how much of the gaming market would you honestly say these people represent? 1%? maybe 2%



And I can say the reverse. I've never had someone recommend the most god-aweful ugly game just because the gameplay was good.

Like I said, they are equally important. If either one flat out sucks the game will not sell. Great games are games with both great graphics and great gameplay, good games are games where one or the other is lacking somewhat, and bad games have failed miserably in one of those two aspects, or both.

I don't see why someone would not recommend a game with outdated graphics, even though the gameplay was really good. People still play Diablo2. Hell, I skipped out on Diablo2 and never played it till a year ago. They still have good old titles in stores because they sell occassionally. I have a friend who just played through half life the first time maybe a year ago.

If a game has garbage gameplay no one will like it. If the graphics are horrendous, no one will like it. But as someone else mentioned, games like the Sims and GTA are extremely popular, even though they didn't offer cutting edge graphics. I'm not arguing that good games can have horrible graphics. I'm arguing that graphics aren't the be-all and end-all of gaming. A game just needs graphics that are reasonable enough to inform you of what's happening in the game. I just think good gameplay can overcome sub-par graphics(not horrible) more often than good graphics can overcome bad gameplay, in the eyes of most players.

[scooby_dooby]

I agree with you, but when going from one generation to the next, it's 99% all about the GFX.

Mark was responding to everyone's questions about "What can this hardware now allow you to do that you couldn't do before"

He said Grapics, plain and simple. Everything from physics, to AI, to larger environments are all spokes around the hub that is GFX to use his metaphor. Everything is viewed with the eyes, so all these things end up contributing to better on screen visuals, in one form or another. Next-Gen systems don't offer you any extra ability to create new "gameplay" experiences, it's all about GFX. I think that's his point.

[DemoCoder]

Marc pretty much echoed everything I had to say about the Revolution controller, although on the subject of HDMI he appears clueless (didn't even know HDCP). You cannot get HDMI/HDCP via an "adapter cable" First of all, there is the problem of going from analog to digital. Search for boxes on the net that convert component->DVI/HDMI or DVI->component. They are very complex electronics.

Secondly, there is the issue of HDCP. HDCP requires support in the device itself which is rendering the visuals, at the software and hardware layer.

There is especially true if MS hopes that the XB360 can stream HD-DVD content from an MCE box on the network (one of their scenarios). It's not possible at HD resolutions without software and hardware in the XB360 to support it.

I predict that real HDMI support on the XB360 will require another SKU.

[Edge]

1) You don't need HDMI for Blu-Ray.

2) If the studios want copy protection for their own property, who are we to tell them what to do with their own property. The copy protection is a CHOICE for the content manufacturers, just as it's a choice of the consumer to support the standard or not.

3) MS support for any next generation standard is meaningless. They have no power as it is in the consumer electronics space, and they don't like it. Too bad. I guess it kinda pisses to be only a software company. Nice margins though!

4) The Nintendo controller is a gimmick to some, and an innovation to others.

5) Sony has said they are re-designing the controller, so am I missing the issue here?

6) Equal graphics? Maybe, but Sony has the franchises that everyone wants. MGS4 means game over bitches! :D 96 million PS2's sold versus MS greater graphics Xbox 22 million. Yeah, it's about the graphics.

[london-boy]

1) You don't need HDMI for Blu-Ray.

yes you do. either that or DVI with HDCP which is the same thing. otherwise u dont get HD resolutons.

[NavNucST3]

yes you do. either that or DVI with HDCP which is the same thing. otherwise u dont get HD resolutons.

That is correct the best you can do without one or the other is EDTV (480p).

Also, I see that IGN has the full uncut version, available only to insiders, that's the one I am more interested to see.

[Metal]

I think Rein could keep a more open mind about that controller. Having said that, I think the notion of this controller as the holy grail of gaming needs to be toned down a bit by the Nintendo fanbase. We need to see games, how it interacts, comfort, etc. with it prior to making bold claims. For what we have seen of it the reaction that Mark has for it is equally as valid as the completely 180 degree polar opposite uber positive reaction people like Matt have for it.

[thundermonkey]

I think Rein could keep a more open mind about that controller. Having said that, I think the notion of this controller as the holy grail of gaming needs to be toned down a bit by the Nintendo fanbase. We need to see games, how it interacts, comfort, etc. with it prior to making bold claims. For what we have seen of it the reaction that Mark has for it is equally as valid as the completely 180 degree polar opposite uber positive reaction people like Matt have for it.
Except Rein hasn't used the controller, Matt has.

That right there gives Matt (Big N ****** #1) a lot more merit for what he is actually saying over Reins comments.

It's a simple thing really, Matt's used it, Rein hasn't. Matt knows what he's talking about with the controller, Rein well, doesn't.

I really do think this controller will change a few things in gaming, whether it has any actual success is again up to the developers. But to say no one but Nintendo will come up with good uses for it? That's just ignorance on Marks part.

He is basically saying all devs are crap. They can't think for themselves, nor come up with good ideas.

I know Nintendo will be the forerunner on this controller, but to think the majority of devs won't make anything passable? That's just stupid.

[valioso]

The fact that Mark actually had to switch up from "Owning a Gamecube" to "Only owning a Gamecube" you can tell that his poll came back to bite him in the ass. Gamecube IS the secondary console someone gets...I mean..its fricking $99 right now, get that Wind Waker, Mario Sunshine, Fire Emblem etc etc. Mark Rein just tried to put the Gamecube and Nintendo in a bad light when in actuality its not as bad as he tried to portray.

I think his pt was to show that Nintendo is giving up on being #1 in the market.

[valioso]

I think Rein could keep a more open mind about that controller. Having said that, I think the notion of this controller as the holy grail of gaming needs to be toned down a bit by the Nintendo fanbase. We need to see games, how it interacts, comfort, etc. with it prior to making bold claims. For what we have seen of it the reaction that Mark has for it is equally as valid as the completely 180 degree polar opposite uber positive reaction people like Matt have for it.

Developers will only develop if there is $$ to be made.. if the revolution does not sell, then 3rd party developers will skip it, like they do now with the gamecube. They are not going to waste money just to develop for a new type of controller, is a business.

[Magnum PI]

This is ridiculous! That little hand raise excerise was nothing more than BS statisitcs.

It was more than that, it was Mark Rein demonstrating his intellectual dishonesty.

[_phil_]

It was more than that, it was Mark Rein demonstrating his intellectual dishonesty.

a marketing guy with intellectual dishonesty ? .This is redundancy ( yields have probably something to do with it.. ).

[AlStrong]

I wouldn't really take Rein's comments about the controller too seriously given that Epic has been focused on shooters for the last decade and it does not seem like they are going to stray too far away from that.

[expletive]

Jeez guys he doesnt like the controller lets get over it. Its his opinion and for whatever reason he's entitled to it. Why we need post after post to try and debunk him as soeone who can have an opinion on the revolution controller is confusing.

FWIW, didnt nintendo also proclaim themselves as the 'second console'?

[expletive]

Marc pretty much echoed everything I had to say about the Revolution controller, although on the subject of HDMI he appears clueless (didn't even know HDCP). You cannot get HDMI/HDCP via an "adapter cable" First of all, there is the problem of going from analog to digital. Search for boxes on the net that convert component->DVI/HDMI or DVI->component. They are very complex electronics.

It depends on what signal is availablie in the output jack. If its an analog only signal then yes what youre saying is correct. If the output jack can also put out a digital signal then an external device could probably be made to add DVI or HDMI. I agree it wouldnt be cheap though. Thinking is probably that MS did not want the electronics associated with doing this to be part of the standard BOM, rather an option for htose who wanted it since the # might be low.

Secondly, there is the issue of HDCP. HDCP requires support in the device itself which is rendering the visuals, at the software and hardware layer.

HDCP is not related to the rendering process at all. Its at the end of the pipe right before output to display.

There is especially true if MS hopes that the XB360 can stream HD-DVD content from an MCE box on the network (one of their scenarios). It's not possible at HD resolutions without software and hardware in the XB360 to support it.

The software clearly wont wont be a problem but the hardware goes back to your first point and the ongoing debate over whetehr or not the 360 will output DVD at 720p. I dont think that was ever solved. If the 360 can output a DVD at 720p (not from a technical standpoint, just a legal one) over component maybe theyll be able to do HD-DVD after all.

I predict that real HDMI support on the XB360 will require another SKU. Definitely a possibility. Is there any information on the details of the 360 dispaly architecture near the output jack?

[mckmas8808]

FWIW, didnt nintendo also proclaim themselves as the 'second console'?

I seriously don't know. Did they? Can you find the link?

[scooby_dooby]

Rein made a good point about the JoyStick on the controller. It does look an awful lot like the crap N64 joystick, that compared to the analogue stick on PS2 or XBOX is terribly uncomfortable and overly touchy.

Once you start to think about it, what it actually is, it's not looking to great IMO. The novelty is there, might be great for casual gamers, but I really don't know how well it will work for the more avid gamer. It's extremely simplistic, and looks sorta uncomfortable.

[expletive]

I seriously don't know. Did they? Can you find the link?

I believe it was at the keynote of their recent Nintendo-only event. Whats the name of that? All my googles are coming back with E3 stuff...

[mckmas8808]

I believe it was at the keynote of their recent Nintendo-only event. Whats the name of that? All my googles are coming back with E3 stuff...

Wow, if true then that is kind of disappointing.

[Magnum PI]

I wouldn't really take Rein's comments about the controller too seriously given that Epic has been focused on shooters for the last decade and it does not seem like they are going to stray too far away from that.

Q: How much is rein related to consoles ? What are Epic's contributions ?

A: Epic couldn't have existed at all, it wouldn't have changed much if anything at all.

And this insignificant actor pretends to give lessons to nintendo, whose contributions the the industry are major, virtually creating genres, who dominated it for years, and still an healthy big player in the field, despite fighting with overweights, one among them having infinite amounts of cash to throw at the problem..

I guess he knows better about coke than coca-cola..

[scooby_dooby]

So, what would have him say when asked his honest opinion?

"I'm not worthy of commenting on the infallible greatness that is Nintendo"?

This is the same company who created the PowerGlove, and that VR-Headset thing(can't remember what it's called) Nintendo has had some pretty bad ideas in the past.

[mckmas8808]

So, what would have him say when asked his honest opinion?

"I'm not worthy of commenting on the infallible greatness that is Nintendo"?

This is the same company who created the PowerGlove, and that VR-Headset thing(can't remember what it's called) Nintendo has had some pretty bad ideas in the past.

And including saying over and over that online gaming is something that gamers don't want. Then they turn around and fully support it. Nintendo is messed up bad at times too.

[Magnum PI]

So, what would have him say when asked his honest opinion?

"I'm not worthy of commenting on the infallible greatness that is Nintendo"?

This is the same company who created the PowerGlove, and that VR-Headset thing(can't remember what it's called) Nintendo has had some pretty bad ideas in the past.

Virtuaboy
And you forgot rob the robot, i sure know about how bad it was as i owned one..

Anyway this is anecdotical, if you look at the record in its globality it's not much.

Except for virtuaboy we are talking about optional peripherals, kind of hard to name optional peripherals that had success (eye toy ?). And was virtuaboy something else than a peripheral project ?

The revolution controller isn't an optional peripheral. It's strategic for the future of nintendo in consoles.

No one can be sure about the success of this controller (and therefore the console), but the people who are behind this are immensely more knowledgeable that Rein.

If the controllers fails, it's just that a pool talented knowledgeable people will have made a bad decision while a clueless guy just made the right bet, without any kind of proper reasoning to back it up.

The Rein is totally lacking modesty..

I find him arrogant, but it seems to be the norm in the merica business mentality. I guess than what I dislike in his attitude can please others..

Look at how microsoft pretended to redefine the console design with the first Xbox, just to apply the same logic as their competitor for the next gen. But this is MS, with such a success story, you can be arrogant ;)

[Magnum PI]

And including saying over and over that online gaming is something that gamers don't want. Then they turn around and fully support it. Nintendo is messed up bad at times too.

If you looked at the minority of xbox users who use xbox live, and the even tinierminority of online users among console players, i weren't that false for the last gen.
Online was more hype than something asked for by gamers.

[Master-Mold]

If you looked at the minority of xbox users who use xbox live, and the even tinierminority of online users among console players, i weren't that false for the last gen.
Online was more hype than something asked for by gamers.

I would hardly call 2 million+ Live members "hype".

Nintendo did pull a 180 on the topic of online play because they know it is now part of console gaming. They were just slow, as usual.

[mckmas8808]

I would hardly call 2 million+ Live members "hype".

Nintendo did pull a 180 on the topic of online play because they know it is now part of console gaming. They were just slow, as usual.

Exactly. And anybody else that thinks Live or any type of online gaming is hype is just lying to themselves. Just read what devs have said about MS online possibilities.

[Ooh-videogames]

I have yet to experience the Xbox360, would it be acceptable for me to speak of it negatively?

I wonder what some of you thought, when Nintendo introduced the N64 controller and the analog thumbstick?

[mckmas8808]

I wonder what some of you thought, when Nintendo introduced the N64 controller and the analog thumbstick?

I thought it was interesting, cool, and productive.

[expletive]

I have yet to experience the Xbox360, would it be acceptable for me to speak of it negatively?

I wonder what some of you thought, when Nintendo introduced the N64 controller and the analog thumbstick?

Regardless of what it looked like or its overall functionality, the analog stick was a huge boon for gaming and the indstry hasnt looked back since.

[function]

Regardless of what it looked like or its overall functionality, the analog stick was a huge boon for gaming and the indstry hasnt looked back since.

And it would have happened without Nintendo at pretty much the same time. Sega had the Saturn's 3D controller in development months before the N64 pad was made public and released it within about a week of N64. It was the basic template for the DC, GC and Xbox pads.

[Master-Mold]

And it would have happened without Nintendo at pretty much the same time. Sega had the Saturn's 3D controller in development months before the N64 pad was made public and released it within about a week of N64. It was the basic template for the DC, GC and Xbox pads.

100% correct. It would have have released a few months sooner than the N64 if not for the delays that Nights had.(it was a pack in peripheral)

Its just another example of an innovation that Nintendo supporters give e-credit for.

I have always said Sega was much more innovative that Nintendo, but people refuse to look at facts and would rather keep their head in the clouds.

[Magnum PI]

I would hardly call 2 million+ Live members "hype".

Thanks for making my point..

2 million+ live members, 100 million+ console gamers
That's a immense fraction of 2 %
This isn't even ten percent of xbox owners..

An overhyped epiphenomen.

The facts speak by itself, console gamers weren't that interested.

Nintendo did pull a 180 on the topic of online play because they know it is now part of console gaming. They were just slow, as usual.

I would rather they that they had nothing to offer online-wise, so the best they had to do was to downplay it while working on it..
I guess they have something serious planned.

[Magnum PI]

I have always said Sega was much more innovative that Nintendo, but people refuse to look at facts and would rather keep their head in the clouds.

I am very curious about this strange idea and would be glad to hear you arguments but I'm afraid it doesn't belongs to this topic.

[Master-Mold]

Thanks for making my point..

2 million+ live members, 100 million+ console gamers
That's a immense fraction of 2 %
This isn't even ten percent of xbox owners..

An overhyped epiphenomen.



Whoa whoa whoa.

If you are going to use the full installed console base (which is wrong in itself) you cant just reference Live users. Xbox hasnt sold anywhere near 100 million.

You would need to use PS2 & Xbox Live online gamers in relation to their respective sales. I could be wrong but hasnt the Xbox sold around 20 million? If so the Live attach rate is 10%+. Granted I dont follow figures closely, but also the Live community has exceeded 2 million by now.

10%+ is damn good for the first serious attempt at a console online service. Nintendo is just trying to mask a mistake with fancy talk about online play. Sounds alot like their old arguement on optical storage for games, then suddenly their next console uses optical storage.

Nintendo nevers wants to appear wrong and still believes they somehow control gaming."You gamers arent ready for anything until we say you are"

[mckmas8808]

Nintendo nevers wants to appear wrong and still believes they somehow control gaming."You gamers arent ready for anything until we say you are"

And that's the one thing that kills me about Nintendo. Something means nothing until they do it.

[expletive]

And that's the one thing that kills me about Nintendo. Something means nothing until they do it.

Agreed. How can anyone deny the emergence of online gaming as 'standard' now is crazy given the explosion of just MMORPGs globally. Jeez, people are literlly playing them to DEATH in Asia.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6448213/did/8888579/

[Magnum PI]

Whoa whoa whoa.

If you are going to use the full installed console base (which is wrong in itself) you cant just reference Live users. Xbox hasnt sold anywhere near 100 million.


Yes you are correct.
If i want to take into account every console I have to add the number of online gamers on PS2 and gamecube to the number of xbox live players..

Let's be crazy and let's say there are 3.5 million PS2 online, 3 xbox lives, 0.5 million gamecube... Among more than 100 million console players..

That would make what ? 7 millions online players ? That make about 7 % of console players who use online services.

Based on this unrealitsically optimist ertimation you could say that 93 % of playesrs don't use online services.

How could you pretend that console gamers want online when only 7% do use online service ? That would be like saying all americans are nazis because 7% do express some sympathies for nazis ideas.. (random example)

You would need to use PS2 & Xbox Live online gamers in relation to their respective sales.

No, the ratio of online players vs the total of console players.

10%+ is damn good for the first serious attempt at a console online service.

Where your reasoning fail is that the sample is not representative, among these players some of them certainly did buy the xbox for the online features.

You can be sure that the fraction of online-oriented gamers on xbox is superior that the fraction of online-oriented gamers all consoles confounded.

It's like saying the fact that 10% of gamecube players bought mario something equates that mario something enjoy a damn good success..

Nintendo is just trying to mask a mistake with fancy talk about online play. Sounds alot like their old arguement on optical storage for games, then suddenly their next console uses optical storage.

What was their argument on optical storage for games ?

Nintendo nevers wants to appear wrong and still believes they somehow control gaming."You gamers arent ready for anything until we say you are"

what do you think you are proving ? you are only reassessing you opinion...

All I see is that some of us forget that the hardcore gamers community isn't representative of console gamers.

[Master-Mold]

You cannot even fairly add in Gamecube owners to the pool of possible online gamers. How many GC games have online play, 1-3? I can think of Phantasy Star and........well I cant think of anything else. Not to mention you really had to go out of your way to find those broadband adapters.

As for Nintendo's previous view on optical strorage, I think this little pasage about says it all:

There are a lot of factors that ultimately contributed to Nintendo's backing-out of its deals for a CD-based system. One was obviously that Nintendo was comfortable with the profitable cartridge system it had running. Other issues were that of extended loading times, ease of pirating, and a read-only gameplay medium.

The Nintendo Power magazine said, "The next time when someone tells you that CD-ROM is the wave of the future, tell them that the future doesn't belong to the snails."

[mckmas8808]

As for Nintendo's previous view on optical strorage, I think this little pasage about says it all:

There are a lot of factors that ultimately contributed to Nintendo's backing-out of its deals for a CD-based system. One was obviously that Nintendo was comfortable with the profitable cartridge system it had running. Other issues were that of extended loading times, ease of pirating, and a read-only gameplay medium.

The Nintendo Power magazine said, "The next time when someone tells you that CD-ROM is the wave of the future, tell them that the future doesn't belong to the snails."

My point exactly.

[Magnum PI]

You cannot even fairly add in Gamecube owners to the pool of possible online gamers.

How many GC games have online play, 1-3? I can think of Phantasy Star and........well I cant think of anything else. Not to mention you really had to go out of your way to find those broadband adapters.
I have to take account the GC owners into the equation, why wouldn't they count like the others ? We should take the sample that suits you the best ?

Yes the gamecube is very poor online-wise, so we can say that someone who choses a gamecube over the other consoles is not interested in online gaming..

I could please you and remove GC from the equation, but it would not change the big picture..You are nitpicking, aren't you ? :lol:

This can only be an approximation as i do not take into account the fact that someone can own several consoles, bu at least i try to be honest.


As for Nintendo's previous view on optical strorage, I think this little pasage about says it all:
Well it says a lot but i doesn't answers my question.
You talked about "their old arguement on optical storage for games".
Which is ?

And please be fair with your source by naming it:
http://www.n-sider.com/articleview.php?articleid=279

The article draws an interesting picture of the relationship b/w nintendo and the CD, things are far more subtle than the way you present it with your selective quoting.

[Master-Mold]

Nintendos former stance on CD Rom or Optical storage was that it was not a good solution for the future of gaming. I remember various quotes and statements around that time period saying it was slow, had terrible load times, and even far fetched things like "optical data storage is untested" as if CDs were going to explode or were fragile. In reality it was all spin to save face and hide the fact they liked the profits they were making charging third parties $8-15 per cartridge for their systems and were scared to death of piracy.

All this was in effort to appear "right" much in the same way they have done with online gaming.Now as before they are adopting the tech they once bashed, but are late to the party as usual. It is as if they are saying "Now its okay to play games online because we (Nintendo) are doing it"

The truth is Nintendo was wrong about online gaming much in the same way they were about CD-Roms and are now going to do it. Nintendo has lately been in the business of telling gamers what you should want and not listening to what gamers actually want unless it fits thier business model and if it doesn't then its wrong.

[mckmas8808]

Nintendos former stance on CD Rom or Optical storage was that it was not a good solution for the future of gaming. I remember various quotes and statements around that time period saying it was slow, had terrible load times, and even far fetched things like "optical data storage is untested" as if CDs were going to explode or were fragile. In reality it was all spin to save face and hide the fact they liked the profits they were making charging third parties $8-15 per cartridge for their systems and were scared to death of piracy.

All this was in effort to appear "right" much in the same way they have done with online gaming.Now as before they are adopting the tech they once bashed, but are late to the party as usual. It is as if they are saying "Now its okay to play games online because we (Nintendo) are doing it"

The truth is Nintendo was wrong about online gaming much in the same way they were about CD-Roms and are now going to do it. Nintendo has lately been in the business of telling gamers what you should want and not listening to what gamers actually want unless it fits thier business model and if it doesn't then its wrong.

And you know what might be next? Nintendo being wrong about HD gaming. You watch.

[fearsomepirate]

The Nintendo Power magazine said, "The next time when someone tells you that CD-ROM is the wave of the future, tell them that the future doesn't belong to the snails."[/i]

Well, you gotta admit that when they finally went for optical storage, they put a lot of effort into making sure the thing loaded fast and was a pain in the butt to pirate. I'd still be PC-only if it weren't for seeing how quick Monkeyball loaded on my buddies' Cubes. I never even considered a console before then.

They also didn't say HD will never, ever be important for all time and eternity. They just said it isn't all it's cracked up to be now. They may turn out to be right. If HD doesn't catch on en masse until the tail of next gen (like online did this gen), they may be glad they decided not to spend that extra money. If 60% of gamers have an HD set by 2007, they'll be eating their words.

And every company always pretends they're always right and always meant to do exactly as they're doing now. Seriously, you should try following the automotive industry...the parallels to the video game industry are weird.

[Johnny Awesome]

Arguing that online gaming is not important because only 10% of Xbox owners purchased Live is a lot like arguing that the Internet was not important back in 1995 when less than 5% of households were on the Net. The phenomenon is in its infancy and no one knows the limit to how far online console gaming will go. Maybe it's 10%, maybe it's 20%, and could be as high as 50%.

[mckmas8808]

They also didn't say HD will never, ever be important for all time and eternity. They just said it isn't all it's cracked up to be now. They may turn out to be right. If HD doesn't catch on en masse until the tail of next gen (like online did this gen), they may be glad they decided not to spend that extra money. If 60% of gamers have an HD set by 2007, they'll be eating their words.



You are right they didn't say HD was bad forever.


"Nintendo's Revolution is being built with a variety of gamers' needs in mind, such as quick start-up time, high power, and ease of use for development and play. It's also compact and sleek, and has beautiful graphics in which to enjoy innovative games," Kaplan says. "Nintendo doesn't plan for the system to be HD compatible as with that comes a higher price for both the consumer and also the developer creating the game. Will it make the game better to play? With the technology being built into the Revolution, we believe the games will look brilliant and play brilliantly. This can all be done without HD."


Nintendo, however, feels that it is appealing to the wider audience by not making Revolution high-definition compatible. The company suggests that while games will look better in HD, they will still look great in standard definition and that the cost, both for developers and consumers, is not worth the benefits. Nintendo's next-generation console is certain to be cheaper than the others, which may immediately make it an attractive option to buyers without a lot of cash to spend or for those who have not yet purchased a high-definition television.

"Companies focused on outdoing each other for technology's sake are using the power of public relations to confuse the media into thinking high-definition is a live-or-die part of the games of the future," says Kaplan. "It is a technological fact that games will still look incredibly beautiful and play incredibly well without the high cost of making them HD compatible. HD may be one of the technologies of the future. Is it the gaming industry's only future? We don't think so."


Link http://ps3.ign.com/articles/624/624517p2.html and http://ps3.ign.com/articles/624/624517p3.html

I just don't like the fact that they aren't giving the devs a chance to use HD. I'll pay $100 more dollars for HD games.

Something else fearsomepirate that you need to read.

Sales of HD televisions are already on the rise and analog standard definition sets on the decline. While only 12.5 percent of U.S. households own an HD set now, the Consumer Electronics Association forecasts that the number is going to steadily increase. In 2006, by the time PlayStation 3 and Revolution launch, nearly 30 percent of all homes in America will have an HDTV. That's already a significant audience, but it gets bigger. In 2007, almost 50 percent of all U.S. households will own an HDTV and in 2008, a whopping 68.1 percent, according to the CEA.

And you can trust the CEA. And you better beleive that out of those percentages for gamers thost percentages should be even higher being that they would buy HDTVs before the average everyday consumer.

[london-boy]

Well in a short while ALL TVs sold will be HDTVs. Someone willing to buy a new TV will only be able to get a HDTV soon enough, whether he "needs" it or not.
And the difference on those TVs between PS3/X360 games and Revolution games will show big time.
Having said that, Nintendo might just provide such innovative and new and different gameplay mechanics that people won't care about graphics. That's quite a bold statement in my opinion, and much harder to accomplish than Sony and MS's plans (they just really want massive Media Centres with big specs and shiny graphics, which is relatively easy). If they can deliver, good for everyone, but they didn't really do anything particularly innovative this generation, i'm not sure what magical new thing they'll come out with in the next generation.

[mckmas8808]

Well in a short while ALL TVs sold will be HDTVs. Someone willing to buy a new TV will only be able to get a HDTV soon enough, whether he "needs" it or not.
And the difference on those TVs between PS3/X360 games and Revolution games will show big time.
Having said that, Nintendo might just provide such innovative and new and different gameplay mechanics that people won't care about graphics. That's quite a bold statement in my opinion, and much harder to accomplish than Sony and MS's plans (they just really want massive Media Centres with big specs and shiny graphics, which is relatively easy). If they can deliver, good for everyone, but they didn't really do anything particularly innovative this generation, i'm not sure what magical new thing they'll come out with in the next generation.

Is a complete change to gaming really needed? I guess you can type a 20 page report on this question if you wanted to. I don't think the people want a huge overhauling change to the way they actually play their games. But I guess we'll see come 2006.

[Shifty Geezer]

Considering the majority of people don't play console games, if they can be attracted to it then I guess there's room for something different. Like football. There were lots of different football rules, and then Soccer was formed. This gave a popular game that people enjoyed. Then someone came up with Rugby Football. Why? Soccer was already enjoyed by millions? Who needs a new football game? But for those that don't like soccer, or also like something different, Rugby was worth developing, despite both being variations of the same original football concepts.

If the existing format for console games doesn't attract the majority of people, change the format to something that (Nintendo hopes) will.

[Magnum PI]

The phenomenon is in its infancy and no one knows the limit to how far online console gaming will go. Maybe it's 10%, maybe it's 20%, and could be as high as 50%.

As you say no one knows, that's just it's a little bit prematurate too to talk about an overhelming success, a flood of online gaming when 5% of console players use online service.. 5% = niche.

We can't really speak about a failure either of course, and I never claimed it was one, just putting things in perspective.

Like you say that's something in its infancy, at the beginning of its lifecycle. It could become the norm i dunno.

You can make fun of someone who seems to have downplayed Internet in 1995, but if you put his consideration into context it isn't be so stupid, at this time it was not so easy to guess it would become what it is now. Something that would attracts peoples outside the ring of the computer enthusiasts.. killer apps like p2p, IM..
It's so easy to guess something a posteriori ;)

[mckmas8808]

As you say no one knows, that's just it's a little bit prematurate too to talk about an overhelming success, a flood of online gaming when 5% of console players use online service.. 5% = niche.

We can't really speak about a failure either of course, and I never claimed it was one, just putting things in perspective.

Like you say that's something in its infancy, at the beginning of its lifecycle. It could become the norm i dunno.



Well it sure wasn't a bad thing to have. I could have been that one thing that allow MS to sell more consoles than Nintendo this gen.

[Magnum PI]

If the existing format for console games doesn't attract the majority of people, change the format to something that (Nintendo hopes) will.

Not only that but it could also make some older player enjoy playing again. (I should qualify as one as I play for 25 years).

Even if graphics are improving, after having played a lot of titles of every predictable genre, you can be somewhat bored by the standard content. This is aggravated the age and the related changes in our life.

[Magnum PI]

Well it sure wasn't a bad thing to have. I could have been that one thing that allow MS to sell more consoles than Nintendo this gen.

Yes it didn't hurt, and we don't really know about the impact it had on xbox sales, so we can only conjecture, but too much conjectures gets tiring. ;)

(it not like the only difference b/w xbove and gc was microsoft live).