My email interview about Xenos with Michael Doggett

[pakpassion]

Question 1: Looking at R520 and R500(Xenos), which one, in layman's terms is
more powerful?

Answer: These 2 chips aren't designed for the same use. R520 is a high end PC
graphics chip, while Xenos (it's not R500) is designed for a home
console. You might consider Xenos more powerful since it has 48 shaders,
while R520 has effectively 16 (x2 ALU) pixel shaders plus 8 vertex
shaders. But with the higher clock speed of 520 it comes out close in
terms of raw shader ALU. But when comparing memory bandwidth, Xenos is
more powerful due to the high memory bandwidth to the EDRAM chip.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Question 2: Looking at Specs of R520 , Xenos, and RSX (PS3 GPU with G70
Architecture with higher(550mhz) clock than 7800, lower memory
bandwidth, FlexIO connection and possibility of TurboCache), which of
these cards will output better graphics as time goes on (R520 life
ending with R580 I assume?)

Answer: They are all very evenly matched. In the end Xenos has 2 advantages.
It has a unified shader, so it can use all 48 shaders for vertex
operations. It also has a much greater framebuffer bandwidth than either
of the others.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Question 3: ATI has said Unified architecture is revolutionary, how much
revolutionary is it?Will it makes Games on Xbox 360 look better than
the Nvidia card?

Answer: It is revolutionary in that vertex and pixel shader are unified. This
is a major change in graphics hardware which we haven't seen since the
introduction of the vertex shader, and that was just an add on, not a
major change like this. It means xbox games can use up to 48 vertex
shaders, where as PS3 can only ever have a maximum of 8. That is a big
change for developers once they start to use it.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Question 4: ATI has talked of efficiency, with current PC cards being 50-60%
efficient while Xbox 360 is more than 80% efficient? what does it mean
specifically?

Answer: I'm not sure what these efficieny numbers are referring to. They
could be shader or memory bandwidth efficiency. This is certainly
something that we are always attempting to improve upon.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Question 5: I have seen that to make HDR work well, you need to reduce AA , but
I thought AA was virtually free when ATI first announced this card in
Xbox 360 and another question, how is it that AA had to be reduced
with full HDR in Kameo but HDR and AA are running at full capacity in
Project Gotham Racing 3?, is this true?


Answer: The 360 has different HDR formats. The 64 bit per pixel formats take
up more memory in the EDRAM. So if you are at the limit of memory you
will have to reduce the number of AA samples. But if you use the 32bit
HDR formats then you can run at 4x MSAA. I don't know the details for
Kameo and PGR3, but there are many modes that the 360 can run in.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Question 6: In the recent Chip manufacturs convention I got hold of information
from ATI that there is Direct3d Compression between the GPU and memory
which means it virtually acts as if the GPU-Memory Bandwidth is
doubled from 22.4 GB/s

Answer: Assuming you are referring to texture compression, then the 360 has
support for several texture compression formats including all the
DirectX compressed texture formats.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I wanted to ask all the pressing questions here. I hope I did a good job with those questions. Discuss.

[scooby_dooby]

This seems awfully familiar to the fake Ageia email that was posted a few months ago...I'm actually starting to wonder if all the "Doggett" emails are fake.

[pakpassion]

This seems awfully familiar to the fake Ageia email that was posted a few months ago...I'm actually starting to wonder if all the "Doggett" emails are fake.

got his email from here: http://www.gris.uni-tuebingen.de/~miked/

[Bill]

Awesome.

I still wonder about the EDRAM. More bandwidth is good for what if we're not bandwidth limited at 720P?

But the shader power is interesting. Exactly as I had tabbed it. R520 has 40 ALU's at 625 mhz. Xenos 48 at 500. So I figured they were close.
And I'd ask him again, if EDRAM makes a card more powerful as he states, why is it not in the PC parts?

[Edge]

> "It means xbox games can use up to 48 vertex shaders, where as PS3 can only ever have a maximum of 8. That is a big change for developers once they start to use it."

It sort of implies that if all your shader units are doing vertex work, what is doing pixel work? So how is it a benefit when at some point you got to do some pixel work.

That's not a realistic answer or a realistic comparison.

A better answer would be that you could have a better ratio of vertex and pixel work for any given scene based on the workload. Maybe that is too complex of an answer for the average person.

> "In the recent Chip manufacturs convention I got hold of information
from ATI that there is Direct3d Compression between the GPU and memory
which means it virtually acts as if the GPU-Memory Bandwidth is
doubled from 22.4 GB/s"

I'm surprised you asked this question, considering D3D compression ratio is 6:1, but you assume 2:1, and RSX also uses DXD compression, so any multiplier of the 360 bandwidth would have to also be done on the PS3 side. Might as well compare ACTUAL bandwidth figures then. If you going to double 360's bandwidth, then double the main bandwidth of PS3 while you are at it.

> "It is revolutionary in that vertex and pixel shader are unified."

I don't understand how it's revolutionary, as all it provides is a better balancing of loads for POSSIBLE efficiencies depending on the scene being rendered. It's evolutionary, and not revolutionary.

[pakpassion]

> "It means xbox games can use up to 48 vertex shaders, where as PS3 can only ever have a maximum of 8. That is a big change for developers once they start to use it."

It sort of implies that if all your shader units are doing vertex work, what is doing pixel work? So how is it a benefit when at some point you got to do some pixel work.

That's not a realistic answer or a realistic comparison.

A better answer would be that you could have a better ratio of vertex and pixel work for any given scene based on the workload. Maybe that is too complex of an answer for the average person.

> "In the recent Chip manufacturs convention I got hold of information
from ATI that there is Direct3d Compression between the GPU and memory
which means it virtually acts as if the GPU-Memory Bandwidth is
doubled from 22.4 GB/s"

I'm surprised you asked this question, considering D3D compression ratio is 6:1, but you assume 2:1, and RSX also uses DXD compression, so any multiplier of the 360 bandwidth would have to also be done on the PS3 side. Might as well compare ACTUAL bandwidth figures then.

> "It is revolutionary in that vertex and pixel shader are unified."

I don't understand how it's revolutionary, as all it provides is a better balancing of loads for POSSIBLE efficiencies depending on the scene being rendered. It's evolutionary, and not revolutionary.

yes but Most of Ps3 games will be OpenGL while the DX9.0L Layer is not available to PS3 which allows more texture compressions such as the one posted in the Chip slides a few months ago.

Edit: I dont think he would know much about DX9.0L layers as its provided by Microsoft for the Console Card, not ATI.

[Josh378]

Sounds like more PR BS.....

-Josh378

[Edge]

> "yes but Most of Ps3 games will be OpenGL while the DX9.0L Layer is not available to PS3 which allows more texture compressions such as the one posted in the Chip slides a few months ago."

Pakpassion, Sony's using Nvidia GPU, which uses S3TC compression, the exact same compression as D3D compression, as D3D compression comes from S3TC. The ratio for that compression is 6:1 maximum.

[RavenFox]

> "yes but Most of Ps3 games will be OpenGL while the DX9.0L Layer is not available to PS3 which allows more texture compressions such as the one posted in the Chip slides a few months ago."

Pakpassion, Sony's using Nvidia GPU, which uses S3TC compression, the exact same compression as D3D compression, as D3D compression comes from S3TC. The ratio for that compression is 6:1 maximum.
Thats common knowledge in these parts.

[pakpassion]

> "yes but Most of Ps3 games will be OpenGL while the DX9.0L Layer is not available to PS3 which allows more texture compressions such as the one posted in the Chip slides a few months ago."

Pakpassion, Sony's using Nvidia GPU, which uses S3TC compression, the exact same compression as D3D compression, as D3D compression comes from S3TC. The ratio for that compression is 6:1 maximum.

I dont think, i dont know exactly but I dont think its the same as the compression they were talking about in the Chip forum slides. thats specific to D3D and might be specific to the X360 version of it.

[SirTendeth]

The question of why EDRAM isnt on the PC is because of a lack of developer support that would insue due to the requirement of a Tiling optimised engine, for one video card.

If the 360 is very sucessfull, and porting to the PC is simplied by XNA tools. We may see ATI take the risk of releasing a card that has EDRAM, on the PC.

But I wouldn't count on it.

[Alpha_Spartan]

Awesome.


And I'd ask him again, if EDRAM makes a card more powerful as he states, why is it not in the PC parts?
Cuz Microsoft owns the eDRAM patent. Xenos is a MS/ATi joint venture.

[Bill]

If tiling caused a card to be more powerful, than a a EDRAM PC card would be made.

MS doesn't own the patent on EDRAM. That's ridiculous.
The real question is, would ATI add 100 million transistors to R520 for little gain (EDRAM)?

I remain to see what EDRAM DOES?

Well, well, it holds stuff!

(But the stuff works fine without it anyway)

[pakpassion]

Im referring to this from Hotchip thread Xbox 360 Slides:

"* GPU low latency cacheable writebacks to CPU
* GPU shared D#D compressed data formats with CPU => at least 2x effective bus bandwidth for typical graphics data.
"

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showpost.php?p=544513&postcount=35


and this one:

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showpost.php?p=544583&postcount=38

"* D3D compressed data formats were customized into both the VMX units and into the GPU."

[darkblu]

The question of why EDRAM isnt on the PC is because of a lack of developer support that would insue due to the requirement of a Tiling optimised engine, for one video card.

If the 360 is very sucessfull, and porting to the PC is simplied by XNA tools. We may see ATI take the risk of releasing a card that has EDRAM, on the PC.

But I wouldn't count on it.

yes, super-tiling makes little sense on a platform with no fixed target resolution - there you'd be better off with micro-tiling ala powervr - that's much more transparent to your rendition code than xenos' super-tiling. on a console, OTH, super-tiling could be a big win, if the amount of edram is actually sufficient for most use scenarios. we'll see.

[pakpassion]

Another interesting thing he said in answering Question 3: " This is big for developers if they start using it", does it mean they havent started utilising it properly or he is just generalising .

[SirTendeth]

Small clarification. Microsoft owns patents to one specific implementation of EDRAM.

Both Nintendo, and Sony have already used their own versions in the GC and PS2.

As far as I know though- EDRAM is expensive, and therefore it most likely will only be integrated in small quantities. This makes fitting an entire frame into the buffer improbable, if not impossible. Thus requiring a tiling mechanism- and this makes compatibility in the PC market more difficult for the developer.

Hence a lack of title support and what I think is the main reason we don't see EDRAM on the PC.

[Bill]

It seems like EDRAM is for high bandwidth needs. High res, high AA, etc.

Gee, exactly the wrong enviroment for a console.

[pakpassion]

It seems like EDRAM is for high bandwidth needs. High res, high AA, etc.

Gee, exactly the wrong enviroment for a console.

but isnt xbox 360 hi res compared to xbox? 480 vs 1024+?
and hi AA? 2x vs 4xMSAA?

[SirTendeth]

Are you sure it didn't work out for the PS2 or GC...
and those were almost exclusively 480P.

Sony and Microsoft are pretending that this gen base line starts at 720P, and I would consider that to be high res. But that's just me.

[Bill]

Well, I've made my position on the EDRAM known.

A) 720P is not bandwidth limited at 128 bit bus, therefore EDRAM is unneeded.

B) If X360 games dont look better than PS3 games with more transistors dedicated to graphics, it failed.

[pakpassion]

Well, I've made my position on the EDRAM known.

A) 720P is not bandwidth limited at 128 bit bus, therefore EDRAM is unneeded.

B) If X360 games dont look better than PS3 games with more transistors dedicated to graphics, it failed.

if they have to look better, they will after PS3 is released. not in first generation

[Pozer]

Awesome.

I still wonder about the EDRAM. More bandwidth is good for what if we're not bandwidth limited at 720P?

But the shader power is interesting. Exactly as I had tabbed it. R520 has 40 ALU's at 625 mhz. Xenos 48 at 500. So I figured they were close.
And I'd ask him again, if EDRAM makes a card more powerful as he states, why is it not in the PC parts?

Your always bandwidth limited. If your not, you need to add more eye candy. :)

Edram will allow more fancy particle effects. Thats one of the reasons why Burnout Revenge looks better on the ps2 than xbox.

http://www.lorisbox.com/docs/hfr/fear/1.jpg

[pakpassion]

Your always bandwidth limited. If your not, you need to add more eye candy. :)

Edram will allow more fancy particle effects. Thats one of the reasons why Burnout Revenge looks better on the ps2 than xbox.

http://www.lorisbox.com/docs/hfr/fear/1.jpg

I swear the ending of FEAR sucked!!!

[Alpha_Spartan]

If tiling caused a card to be more powerful, than a a EDRAM PC card would be made.

MS doesn't own the patent on EDRAM. That's ridiculous.
The real question is, would ATI add 100 million transistors to R520 for little gain (EDRAM)?

I remain to see what EDRAM DOES?

Well, well, it holds stuff!

(But the stuff works fine without it anyway)
The EDRAM daughter die has more than storage it has z-buffer and stencil logic as well. MS owns the patent for it and wrote the compilers. ATi can't use it without MS permission.

[SirTendeth]

Sorry Bill, but in the console environment, EDRAM makes a lot of sense, and so does Tiling, because it’s fixed hardware and target resolutions.

It creates a great bang for the buck ratio, and in an economy that has the console manufacturer subsidizing the cost of hardware, that is very important.

In Sony’s case this round, they could safely assume that the six month release window difference between them and Microsoft, would ensure that the performance of the PS3 would at least be comparable to the 360.

Then they would look at what made the original XBOX a contender last round- and that was Microsoft strength in the PC world. It gave the last out of the gate hardware lots of title support.

This time with a PC based technology they are hoping to woo more PC developers over, and minimize Microsoft’s advantage in the PC realm.

And they get a type of bang for the buck. In that they are using a variation on a year old PC tech, which will have seen the brunt of R&D recoup for NVIDIA happen already.

[Bill]

So far PS3 games look better.

Both are on 90nm. There is no technology advantage here.

IF PS3 games look better, it will not be because they launched later. It will be due to better design, like a better GPU without EDRAM.

Both are paying the same per transistor.

Xbox used 337, Sony used 300.

It is looking like PS3 games will be 20+% more powerful.

There's no good reason for that.

[pakpassion]

So far PS3 games look better.

Both are on 90nm. There is no technology advantage here.

when they apply game code and we see that game code translated to screen, then we will compare.

[pakpassion]

Sorry Bill, but in the console environment, EDRAM makes a lot of sense, and so does Tiling, because it’s fixed hardware and target resolutions.

It creates a great bang for the buck ratio, and in an economy that has the console manufacturer subsidizing the cost of hardware, that is very important.

In Sony’s case this round, they could safely assume that the six month release window difference between them and Microsoft, would ensure that the performance of the PS3 would at least be comparable to the 360.

Then they would look at what made the original XBOX a contender last round- and that was Microsoft strength in the PC world. It gave the last out of the gate hardware lots of title support.

This time with a PC based technology they are hoping to woo more PC developers over, and minimize Microsoft’s advantage in the PC realm.

And they get a type of bang for the buck. In that they are using a variation on a year old PC tech, which will have seen the brunt of R&D recoup for NVIDIA happen already.

actually isnt MS XNA initiative to counter that? that make multiplatform X360 and PC games much easier when terms and code are collaborated with the XNA development tools thus allowing PC developers to develop more for MS?

[Alpha_Spartan]

So far PS3 games look better.

Both are on 90nm. There is no technology advantage here.

IF PS3 games look better, it will not be because they launched later. It will be due to better design, like a better GPU without EDRAM.
What PS3 games have you seen? You must be some kind of industry insider, because I haven't seen any PS3 games as of yet.

Bill, the more I read your bullshit, the less I'm inclined to take you seriously. I have a hard time telling if your whole "eDRAM is Satan on Silicon" is for real or a lame gimmick.

[scooby_dooby]

A) 720P is not bandwidth limited at 128 bit bus, therefore EDRAM is unneeded..
That's complete nonsense. For Splinter Cell 3, with a 128bit bus, the 7800GTX suffered a 27% frop in framerate compared to 5% drop with a 256bit bus. That's 1024x768!! LESS than 720p resolution. On an old game!

And bandwidth is not limited at 720p w/ a 128bit bus? Gimme a break, it's already limited on current generation games, let alone the next gen graphics we wil be seeing in 2 or 3 years.

[scooby_dooby]

So far PS3 games look better.

Actually so far they look worse. SInce the only real game running at a real framerate so far is Frame City Killers.

Heavenly Sword looks amazing, but last we heard it was ~5fps in outdoor scenes.

Bill you've ruined enough threads already, either open your ears and listen to what people try to explain to you, or just give it a rest.

[Bill]

Would you rather have Xenos with 64 ALU versus RSX with 16 pipes and EDRAM?

I sure as heck would.

The EDRAM is the obvious weakness of Xenos. I cant ignore it anymore.

OK my last comment will just be we need to see 2nd gen real games for both.

But the writing is on the wall in that GTX is killing ATI in PC's. Especially at anything near console res or without AA.

[SirTendeth]

We haven’t seen truly finalized games on either platform. So how you can say PS3 games look better is beyond me.

Unless you are unwilling to admit that graphics in a game often look better or –worse-upon completion then when they are in development.

Combine this with the fact that the 360 is trying to compete with hardware released six months later, in order to gain early market share and to be the predominant target platform. You should be able to see how for –THEM- it makes sense.

We don’t know the final cost to Sony or the consumer, for the PS3. But Microsoft knew they had to be both profitable and extremely price competitive against a machine that would be released later.

Sony has different needs and may or may not have positioned themselves the best because of the needs, we may never know. Because in the end its about profit and market penetration, and that doesn’t always relate to hardware design choices.

[Kb-Smoker]

This seems awfully familiar to the fake Ageia email that was posted a few months ago...I'm actually starting to wonder if all the "Doggett" emails are fake.
i think pakpassion is really onetimeposter...

:???:

[Laa-Yosh]

But we can always ignore you...

[SirTendeth]

Pakpassion, I don't know if I would consider XNA a counter. I think it's more of them continuing the natural progression of their strength as a tool provider, and in doing so increasing their already dominant position as the preferred technical environment for developers.

[scooby_dooby]

Would you rather have Xenos with 64 ALU versus RSX with 16 pipes and EDRAM?

I sure as heck would.

Man you just refuse to listen to what anyone says. I heard a saying on the apprentice last night, it's "Seek first to understand, then seek to be understood", try that approach.

You made a point that bandwidth is not limited at 720p with a 128bit bus, i gave you real life examples of current generation games that are ALREADY bandwidth limited at resolution LESS than 720p, and all you can do is regurgitate the same argument you've posted 15 times?

How about admitting your argument is fundamentally flawed and based on FALSE assumptions? Then we'd be getting somewhere...

Bandwidth IS an issue, and it will only become MORE of an issue as games get better and better, that's why EDRAM is so useful.

[pakpassion]

i think pakpassion is really onetimeposter...

:???:

wtf stop accusing me

[SirTendeth]

Would you rather have Xenos with 64 ALU versus RSX with 16 pipes and EDRAM?

I sure as heck would.

The EDRAM is the obvious weakness of Xenos. I cant ignore it anymore.

OK my last comment will just be we need to see 2nd gen real games for both.

But the writing is on the wall in that GTX is killing ATI in PC's. Especially at anything near console res or without AA.

Bill I must have missed the part wear you ever ignored the "Weakness of EDRAM".

And I'm not sure how comparing the success of a PC part from ATI with NO EDRAM, and Xenos With EDRAM does anything to justify your current position.

At least your apparently willing to wait to judge technical decisions until the second gen.

It's a start. I think.

[aeriic]

Would you rather have Xenos with 64 ALU versus RSX with 16 pipes and EDRAM?

And just how do you expect to keep these 64 ALUs fed? You can't just arbitrarily increase some functional units without taking the rest of the GPU into consideration...

EDRAM makes a lot of sense when considering that X360 uses UMA architecture...

[Hardknock]

Awesome.

I still wonder about the EDRAM. More bandwidth is good for what if we're not bandwidth limited at 720P?

But the shader power is interesting. Exactly as I had tabbed it. R520 has 40 ALU's at 625 mhz. Xenos 48 at 500. So I figured they were close.
And I'd ask him again, if EDRAM makes a card more powerful as he states, why is it not in the PC parts?

You are incorrect. The R520 does NOT have 40 ALUs. It has the equivalent of 24 ALUs at 625 mhz. In that email he was saying that if both chips had 8 pipes for Vertex, Xenos would have (2x) the amount of pixel alus than the R520.

Edit: or maybe I'm reading the email wrong :razz:

[SirTendeth]

I would like to publicly apologies to Bill for my use of sarcasm. I hate it when it is used in a rude manner by posters, and yet I apparently couldn’t help but using it myself.

You are not my enemy, so sorry for being rude Bill.

Bill I would like to mention that you have seemingly have a bias against the 360, because it really reads as if you have direct issues with the design due to a brand preference. Not because there are real weaknesses to the design, which I am sure exist.

Would you please clarify your position if this is not the case, by studying the Xenos design in depth. And then try to couch your findings of fault, with greater care, as to not give the appearance of bias, if it isn’t there.

Or if there is bias and we all have it to some degree. Please admit it so that we can move on with the discussion. LB and Shifty have done it and I respect what they add to the community because of it.

I have a leaning to the 360 myself, but haven’t committed financial resources to either console yet. And I think the Xenos and Cell paradigms are design risks that offer lots of potential. I like to see companies step out of the box, so we will see.

[Carl B]

Bill is an admitted fan of the XBox (seemingly hardcore) - he simply feels that the graphics potential of the Xenos has been compromised by the use of an esoteric design such as the daughter-die arrangement, rather than dedicating those transistors to a larger 'core' GPU.

Bill this is what I've gotten from you over the last couple of days - feel free to correct me if I'm off. ;)

But Sir Tendeth you're reading him wrong if you think he's a Sony fan. Rather he seems to feel betrayed by Microsoft and ATI on some level.

(I find myself acting as a Bill advocate in this situation since Bill doesn't seem willing to discuss Xenos without lashing out at the eDRAM any chance he gets)

[Tap In]

But we can always ignore you...


I don't know who you're referring to exactly but my ignore list is very well populated and growing rapidly. ;) :)

great feature

makes reading threads like these, a breeze.

[SirTendeth]

Thanks for sharing that, I haven’t tried to delve into his posting history. This was part of the reason for my apology.

If you would like to clarify further Bill go ahead.

From this thread I wasn't seeing heavily reasoned findings expressed, but I admit my bias would skew any interpretation I make.

I like daring innovation, even if it falls flat on it’s face, and we certainly haven’t given Xenos a full lifecycle to find out.

[Carl B]

I agree - I'm all about pushing the envelope. I like something fresh and bold, and Xenos certainly qualifies. Whether or not RSX 'beats' it or not, I'll probably follow it's developments closely. Certainly I hope RSX spices things up a little beyond being a straight G70 'port.'

[avaya]

Actually so far they look worse. SInce the only real game running at a real framerate so far is Frame City Killers.

This is an X360 title is it not?

[SirTendeth]

Me too.

It would be nice to think Nvidia will see technological growth on the PC side due to the PS3 venture.

[Alpha_Spartan]

Bill is an admitted fan of the XBox (seemingly hardcore)...
And I'm a Swedish swimsuit model. We can be anything we want on the Internets! Weeeeeeeeeeee!

[Kb-Smoker]

And I'm a Swedish swimsuit model. We can be anything we want on the Internets! Weeeeeeeeeeee!
http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/l33tn00b/Pics/gollum_pics.jpg

[Carl B]

And I'm a Swedish swimsuit model. We can be anything we want on the Internets! Weeeeeeeeeeee!

Uh - ok. Except that I don't think he was lying when he wrote it Alpha. Go over his past post histroy - I'm sure it will all become clear to you. The first page of that 'eDRAM sucks' thread is where he 'sets things straight' in that regard.

I have no reason to disbelieve him (or anyone else) out of hand.

[SirTendeth]

ROFL- the gollum pic in that context is very funny.
But seriously lets see the photo evidence.

[pakpassion]

Uh - ok. Except that I don't think he was lying when he wrote it Alpha. Go over his past post histroy - I'm sure it will all become clear to you. The first page of that 'eDRAM sucks' thread is where he 'sets things straight' in that regard.

I have no reason to disbelieve him (or anyone else) out of hand.

have you considered the factor that either he is a kid? or...

[expletive]

And I'd ask him again, if EDRAM makes a card more powerful as he states, why is it not in the PC parts?

My guess would be the exorbitant price It would be pricey for enough to be practical at the higher resolutions hardcore PC gamers want.

[Carl B]

have you considered the factor that either he is a kid? or...

No, I haven't considered that, since his thoughts - however rabid at times - are structured coherently. I have considered the possibility that you are a troll though pakpassion, and like others I wonder if you're 'onetimeposter' returned to us. ;)

Certainly there are similarities - and he also was all about correspondence with company representatives.

And then that little reflexsive 'Heavenly Sword' action earlier in the thread after Deano posted...

But hey, like I said - I give people the benefit of the doubt.

[expletive]

Bill is an admitted fan of the XBox (seemingly hardcore) - he simply feels that the graphics potential of the Xenos has been compromised by the use of an esoteric design such as the daughter-die arrangement, rather than dedicating those transistors to a larger 'core' GPU.

Bill this is what I've gotten from you over the last couple of days - feel free to correct me if I'm off. ;)

But Sir Tendeth you're reading him wrong if you think he's a Sony fan. Rather he seems to feel betrayed by Microsoft and ATI on some level.

(I find myself acting as a Bill advocate in this situation since Bill doesn't seem willing to discuss Xenos without lashing out at the eDRAM any chance he gets)

With ******s like Bill, MS doesnt need enemies! :)

[pakpassion]

No, I haven't considered that, since his thoughts - however rabid at times - are structured coherently. I have considered the possibility that you are a troll though pakpassion, and like others I wonder if you're 'onetimeposter' returned to us. ;)

Certainly there are similarities - and he also was all about correspondence with company representatives.

And then that little reflexsive 'Heavenly Sword' action earlier in the thread after Deano posted...

But hey, like I said - I give people the benefit of the doubt.

why are you getting so irritated with the contents of the email. i wonder why...xboxdestroyer

[SirTendeth]

It would be nice if this could be refocused on the post topic.

[Carl B]

why are you getting so irritated with the contents of the email. i wonder why...xboxdestroyer

That's almost confirmation right there.

If you know me, you know the handle has nothing to do with anything.

BUT - to my knowledge it is only onetimeposter that used to engage in the practice of emailing the VP's and other execs, and posting their replys up here on the forum. Certainly if you were around back then, you could see where I might raise an eyebrow in suspicion, having noticed the similarities.

Let me just ask flat-out, and you can answer along with whatever other reply you address me with: *are* you onetimeposter?

(PS - the email contents don't irritate me, but you can keep putting words in my mouth if you like)

[SirTendeth]

AHEM... I said lets refocus this to the topic at hand.




Alpha_Spartan's swimsuit pictures of herself...they better be revealing or I'm gonna put you on ignore.

P.S. and if your not really hot I put you on ignore too. :)

[pakpassion]

That's almost confirmation right there.

If you know me, you know the handle has nothing to do with anything.

BUT - to my knowledge it is only onetimeposter that used to engage in the practice of emailing the VP's and other execs, and posting their replys up here on the forum. Certainly if you were around back then, you could see where I might raise an eyebrow in suspicion, having noticed the similarities.

Let me just ask flat-out, and you can answer along with whatever other reply you address me with: *are* you onetimeposter?

(PS - the email contents don't irritate me, but you can keep putting words in my mouth if you like)

its obvious you favor PS3 and diss anything XBox 360 looking at your Post history i might add.

anyway, lets not get into that and get back into discussion for this thread.

[Lycan]

why are you getting so irritated with the contents of the email. i wonder why...xboxdestroyer

Just what is so shocking in that reply to irritate any reader ? Mind explaining...No offense, I am just wondering if I have succeeded assimilating the answers of the guy...Some of which were not convincing if you ask me ( His reply concerning the efficiency figures). :razz:

[dukmahsik]

Bill is the biggest troll on this forum

[SirTendeth]

I guess I can try to post something useful.

Some of the initial questions -if real- only relate what we should already know.
The X1000 series and the Xenos chips designs come from about the same period of time and there raw power is fairly similar.

The “Edge” that the Xenos design has predominantly comes from the fact that it is a closed platform design and therefore has the luxury of using chip real-estate to target key development hurdles.

The value of these specific enhancements isn’t likely to make itself apparent in the early generation of games. But like all console designs before it, it will mature significantly more than a comparable PC part would ever hope to. This is mainly Due to the focused development that it will enjoy for the next 4 to five years.

The question comparing the brought the RSX into this likewise is lacking in long-term value as the final implementation benefits, won’t be seen until late in the PS3 life cycle. This makes the comparison moot, if not outright erroneous due to the lack of concrete evidence as to the final PS3 Design.


As to the later questions they provide interesting insights into Xenos, are they accurate?

Any developers want to PM me I will gladly keep your NDA secrets safe. ;)

I hate it when you have to edit your post, because you changed your mind on which smilie fits best.

[Carl B]

its obvious you favor PS3 and diss anything XBox 360 looking at your Post history i might add.

anyway, lets not get into that and get back into discussion for this thread.

Here's the deal Hasan: I don't 'diss' anything 360 related. I do favor the PS3, but I doubt highly you've read many of my posts. I have been critical of certain 360 aspects (with cause), but when something is wrong with the PS3, I certainly don't try to make excuses for it - I freely deal with those flaws without trying to toss things back to the XBox. Certainly I would advise *you* to look over my post history.

Secondly, you're banned, but you've created yet another user name in contravention of the forum rules to come here and continue doing what you do.

As far as I'm concerned, the fact that you've been banned - twice! - before says to me this username of yours should be instantly banned as well.

BUT, we'll just see how that plays out...

[scooby_dooby]

This is an X360 title is it not?

I meant 5th phantom saga or whatever it's called...but heavenly sword is now confirmed to be running in realtime so that's by far the best in-game PS3 graphics so far, it does look amazing.

[Rolf N]

I still wonder about the EDRAM. More bandwidth is good for what if we're not bandwidth limited at 720P?a)Bandwidth limitation has nothing to do with resolution.

Bandwidth consumption is pretty much a per-fillrate balance thing, because you need n bytes to be transferred per pixel you fill, and that n isn't going to change with resolution. If you have lots of fillrate and intend to use it, you need lots of bandwidth to match. If you have little fillrate, you don't need much bandwidth. Resolution is irrelevant.

b)The eDRAM daughter die throws its high internal bandwidth only at the usual suspects that throw bandwidth/fillrate ratios way out of balance: blending, multisampling. That's what the eDRAM is good for. Listen to the screams of generations of CS kiddies who complain about "fps drops when there's a smoke grenade on screen". That's blending. That's what you need high bandwidth for. That's something you can do with eDRAM without taking a hit, in contrast to the huge losses with a classic approach.

c)You're a real annoyance.

[Neeyik]

Bill won't be responding here for a while. Thread has gone far from its original topic too.