Yamauchi on the PS3: "...beginning of a new world..." [Archive]

drpepper

14-Oct-2005, 00:08

Taking a page from Team Ninja creator Itagaki, the father of Gran Turismo gives his take on the PS3 console.

http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=61269

Juicy bits:

"The PlayStation 3 is the first piece of hardware allowing photo-realistic computer graphics," offered Kazza in a special 10th anniversary Q&A sent over today "and is the first game hardware that can perform calculations for physics simulation to the level of our satisfaction.

"With a matrix of such elements, a new world of entertainment is about to unfold," he reckons, and went on to say "PlayStation is not just a platform, it's a movement," in a rare 'Zen of gaming'-esque moment to rival Microsoft's Peter Moore's wibblings at E3 this year.

Although this has the workings of flaimbait, I thought it would be time to post something other than Xbox 360 news. So what do you think?

Keep it civil!

dukmahsik

14-Oct-2005, 00:12

Taking a page from Team Ninja creator Itagaki, the father of Gran Turismo gives his take on the PS3 console.

http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=61269

Juicy bits:

Although this has the workings of flaimbait, I thought it would be time to post something other than Xbox 360 news. So what do you think?

Keep it civil!

I think it's typical PR? I wouldnt be surprised if someone on MS' end said same.

Edge

14-Oct-2005, 00:17

> "Keep it civil!"

Straps bombs to his chest, and runs towards forum.

drpepper

14-Oct-2005, 00:18

I think it's typical PR? I wouldnt be surprised if someone on MS' end said same.

Yes, Peter Moore is full of quotes. But J Allard takes it all with his "We want 1 billion gamers using Xbox 360..." to that effect during the E3 presentation.

Mefisutoferesu

14-Oct-2005, 00:26

Actual interview can be found at link below.

http://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=71689

Qroach

14-Oct-2005, 00:32

"We want 1 billion gamers using Xbox 360..."

he didn't say that. he said this generation they want one billion players playing video games. He wasn't talking specifically about xbox.

aaaaa00

14-Oct-2005, 00:32

Yes, Peter Moore is full of quotes. But J Allard takes it all with his "We want 1 billion gamers using Xbox 360..." to that effect during the E3 presentation.

To be precise he said:

http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/exec/rbach/05-16-05E3.mspx

In the HD era, we are going to reach 1 billion people with our medium.

In other words, he thinks this generation, the entire market for games will grow to 1 billion people, not necessarily one billion people will own an xbox 360.

Though obviously he hopes some (large) percentage of those people will buy an xbox 360.

Alpha_Spartan

14-Oct-2005, 00:34

PR bunk + 1.

He sucks at Itagaki.

mckmas8808

14-Oct-2005, 00:51

It's really not that bad. You guys are making it worst than it really is.

jvd

14-Oct-2005, 01:04

Sounds ookay , no diffrent than the emotion engine .

Its all hype , i just want to see playable games ..

But as i've said i'm more interested in the controller than anything else . The xbox 360 controller is like a sweet woman , The rev controller is something new and kinky . What will the ps3 controller be like ?

Alpha_Spartan

14-Oct-2005, 01:17

Seriously, it's worse than Trip Hawkins' comparing PS2 to the printing press. It's just a new damn console. To hell with the hyperbole. Show me a true GT5.

expletive

14-Oct-2005, 02:59

Seriously, it's worse than Trip Hawkins' comparing PS2 to the printing press.

Hehe, did trip hawkins really say that?

With all the hyperbole being used this round i wonder if they'll have any left for the NEXT gen. :)

A 'movement' though? That's a bit rich...

J

mckmas8808

14-Oct-2005, 03:10

randycat99

14-Oct-2005, 03:15

Me predicts...he will reply with an answer that has nothing to do with the question, but necessarily diverts to something entirely different, so as not to have to answer the question that was asked.

PARANOiA

14-Oct-2005, 03:46

Replace the word Playstation with Xbox360, or Revolution, or PSP, or Saturn, or whatever you want and it becomes fairly generic PR. Meaningless drivel.

mckmas8808

14-Oct-2005, 04:13

Replace the word Playstation with Xbox360, or Revolution, or PSP, or Saturn, or whatever you want and it becomes fairly generic PR. Meaningless drivel.

But he didn't say that so your point is moot.

c0_re

14-Oct-2005, 04:16

Bring on the "Photo Realistic" graphics I'll be the first inline to play the photo realistic Warhawk on PS3.

"a new world of entertainment is about to unfold," he reckons, and went on to say "PlayStation is not just a platform, it's a movement,"

yea I had a "movement" about an hour ago, right after diner it was great, but alas I don' think it's going to usher ina whole new world, that might be a little lofty.

Is it normal for the Japanese to goto such great melo dramatic extremes when talking about their product.

MrSingh

14-Oct-2005, 04:19

I have bowel movement every morning, and I beat the PS3 to market.

Azrael

14-Oct-2005, 04:20

Here, let me help.

"The Xbox 360 is the first piece of hardware allowing photo-realistic computer graphics," offered Itagaki in a special 10th anniversary Q&A sent over today "and is the first game hardware that can perform calculations for physics simulation to the level of our satisfaction.

"With a matrix of such elements, a new world of entertainment is about to unfold," he reckons, and went on to say "Xbox 360 is not just a platform, it's a movement,"

:wink:

mckmas8808

14-Oct-2005, 04:23

PARANOiA

14-Oct-2005, 04:33

But he didn't say that so your point is moot.

Mcmas, I try to take you seriously. When you are 75% objective, your opinion matters. Right now you're wearing a big red "I love Sony" badge. If the above quote came from, say, Major Nelson, I would bet you $100 you would not defend it. That, to me, shows me you cannot have a fair opinion on anything here.

To clarify, he claimed that the Playstation3 is "the first piece of hardware allowing photo-realistic computer graphics". That is entirely comical. He thinks:

That we'll have photorealism this gen, which will not happen. If you believe it will, please put forward a case, otherwise I'll assume it won't. (And don't ask me to prove while it won't happen - that's like asking me to prove fairies don't exist in the North Pole when no one is watching. I can't, but it doesn't mean they're there)
That the PS3 is the first machine that can bring photorealism - meaning it's the most advanced graphics system in the world today. More than all of Hollywood's CG labs, even. And they'll put it in your home, too!This guy is just giving Sony they're required publicity, talking shit, while people who love Sony defend it. Unbelievable how people are so loyal to a fucking GAME COMPANY!

Really gets on my goat! :evil:

Azrael

14-Oct-2005, 04:37

How does that help? What's the point?

If you don't know, I'm not gonna tell you.

I realize you WANT to believe any positive Sony PR/Hype/News and that's your choice. I just wouldn't recommend it. :lol:

randycat99

14-Oct-2005, 04:37

There are those that protest a bit too strongly, as well. That can be just as incriminating.

PARANOiA

14-Oct-2005, 04:41

There are those that protest a bit too strongly, as well. That can be just as incriminating.

Only if those people swallow the shit from the other side :lol: I will buy a PS3 and not an X360, but I hate hate hate all the lies that happen here - moreso when rich kids from the suburbs sit there and say, "he's right you know!" (because clearly the above *will happen*)

mckmas8808

14-Oct-2005, 04:43

Mcmas, I try to take you seriously. When you are 75% objective, your opinion matters. Right now you're wearing a big red "I love Sony" badge. If the above quote came from, say, Major Nelson, I would bet you $100 you would not defend it. That, to me, shows me you cannot have a fair opinion on anything here.

To clarify, he claimed that the Playstation3 is "the first piece of hardware allowing photo-realistic computer graphics". That is entirely comical. He thinks:

That we'll have photorealism this gen, which will not happen. If you believe it will, please put forward a case, otherwise I'll assume it won't. (And don't ask me to prove while it won't happen - that's like asking me to prove fairies don't exist in the North Pole when no one is watching. I can't, but it doesn't mean they're there)
That the PS3 is the first machine that can bring photorealism - meaning it's the most advanced graphics system in the world today. More than all of Hollywood's CG labs, even. And they'll put it in your home, too!This guy is just giving Sony they're required publicity, talking shit, while people who love Sony defend it. Unbelievable how people are so loyal to a fucking GAME COMPANY!

Really gets on my goat! :evil:

PARANOiA calm down a little man it's cool. I know we won't have photorealistic games next-gen. I know this. My response was to your quote and your quote only. You said Replace the word Playstation with Xbox360, or Revolution, or PSP, or Saturn, or whatever you want and it becomes fairly generic PR. Meaningless drivel.

All I'm saying is that the whole article shouldn't be called meaningless drivel. Didn't Kojima actually say that the CELL processor is the key to winning the war? Yes he did and you didn't see people cast that statement as meaningless drivel.

:lol: at you saying that I'm wearing the "I love Sony" badge. The funny thing is I take up for the Xbox 360 damn near everyday (starting this week) and people act like they don't even notice. And if Major Nelson did say that I would be jumping on him. I have no respect for someone that lies and knows what he is doing.

Now if J. Allard were to say that I wouldn't have a problem with him saying that. I would say something like "I would like to see them prove it." Sony has proven more in the console game than MS has so that's why I didn't say it here.

Dr Evil

14-Oct-2005, 04:45

The xbox 360 controller is like a sweet woman

/Imagining jvd alone in his room with X360 controller.......ummm.....SWEET!.:)

mckmas8808

14-Oct-2005, 04:45

If you don't know, I'm not gonna tell you.

I realize you WANT to believe any positive Sony PR/Hype/News and that's your choice. I just wouldn't recommend it. :lol:

Never said that I believed that photorealistic cars were possible. But of course you and some others will skip this post.:roll:

liverkick

14-Oct-2005, 05:22

Here's the original quote in context.

With the advent of PS3, are there any concepts that have you've been dreaming about for years that, with the new technology, can now be brought to fruition?

Kaz Yamauchi- Though difficult to explain in detail at this time, perhaps I can share the possibilities in an abstract way. The PlayStation 3 is the first piece of hardware allowing photo-realistic computer graphics, and is the first game hardware that can perform calculations for physics simulation to the level of our satisfaction. With a matrix of such elements, a new world of entertainment is about to unfold. This is the beginning of a world, different to that of what we have called "games" up to today.

I know the branded shock troops on this forum are ready to flood any lofty comment from the Sony camp about their own product, but the twitch-indignation out of some of you guys is getting rather comical. Ambiguous hyperbole from one of the most respected designers in the biz for a mainstream press release is nothing to get your panties in a bunch over.

Azrael

14-Oct-2005, 05:43

The PlayStation 3 is the first piece of hardware allowing photo-realistic computer graphics,

Maybe he actually is ignorant of what rendering photo-realistic computer graphics really takes (http://www.sgi.com/products/visualization/onyx3000/tech_info.html).

Neme

14-Oct-2005, 06:32

Maybe he's talking about game hardware, not professional rendering studios, and he seems to be talking about it as being the first game hardware that they're satisfied with. By the way, GT4 is already close to photorealism, though I think it's mostly artistic achievement, playing with contrast and lighting. Nevertheless I believe in them making GT5 photorealistic.

one

14-Oct-2005, 07:17

" he reckons, and went on to say "Xbox 360 is not just a platform, it's a movement,"

:wink:That paraphrase is wrong, as it's clear that Yamauchi refers to all PS family, not PS3. You can't put an unproven console name there. Read the full interview Mefisutoferesu posted and Yamauchi talks about his involvement with the entire Playstation history. You should have modified it into "Xbox is not just a platform, it's a movement". If you feel it doesn't work, then replace it with "Xbox Live" or whatever :razz:

Azrael

14-Oct-2005, 07:30

ecliptic

14-Oct-2005, 07:57

_phil_

14-Oct-2005, 08:16

photorealism just mean light accuracy. From there , everyone builds it's own definition.

Neme

14-Oct-2005, 08:31

GT4 using a poor quality photo as a background texture is not close to photorealism.

I don't think it's about quality. IMO it's the adjustment of the contrast and the lightmaps and other stuff to get close to what you would see overall when you look at a photo, be it a high quality one or a poor one. It could be a photo with a blurred background, in which case a lowres background for the game matches it well and helps with better utilizing the resources for other things as well. So as I said it's mostly art direction at work but also coders' work to get smooth refresh, etc. Oviously with better hardware they can go yet another step further.

london-boy

14-Oct-2005, 09:07

Maybe he actually is ignorant of what rendering photo-realistic computer graphics really takes (http://www.sgi.com/products/visualization/onyx3000/tech_info.html).

Wow, you just called Yamauchi "ignorant".
I agree whoever takes PR word for real needs to get a reality check, but i'm sorry to say, you go WAY overboard.
But then again, you're a rabid troll so i'm not surprised.

Azrael

14-Oct-2005, 09:12

Wow, you just called Yamauchi "ignorant".
I agree whoever takes PR word for real needs to get a reality check, but i'm sorry to say, you go WAY overboard.
But then again, you're a rabid troll so i'm not surprised.

Nah, if I was a "rabid troll" I'd have 15,152 posts instead of just 51. :wink:

london-boy

14-Oct-2005, 09:18

Nah, if I was a "rabid troll" I'd have 15,152 posts instead of just 51. :wink:

Sure.
If you're finished ruining the thread, now you can go.

Shifty Geezer

14-Oct-2005, 10:00

I saw this article yesterday morning and decided not to post it as it's worthless. If it belongs anywhere it's in the Sony PR section. A Sony 1st party developer saying their console is the best ever isn't news and isn't worth hearing. It's not at all difficult to imagine one's own hyperbole for a console so why get excited over someone else making up hyperbole? Devs should stick to writing software, not soundbites.

Azrael

14-Oct-2005, 10:25

They can damn me for heresy as they will, but Sony's clergy are just going to have to accept that not everyone worships their God. :grin:

london-boy

14-Oct-2005, 10:29

They can damn me for heresy as they will, but Sony's clergy are just going to have to accept that not everyone worships their God. :grin:

Stop trolling.

Worship Sony is something, and they need to get a reality check, but calling Yamauchi ignorant is something else, and only a really ignorant person would say that.

Azrael

14-Oct-2005, 10:36

Stop trolling.

You first. :roll:

london-boy

14-Oct-2005, 10:38

You first. :roll:

You don't know what trolling means obviously. Give it up. I'm not the one who called Yamauchi "ignorant".
Poisting a lot (and my post count is this big mainly because of the General Forum) is not trolling. Calling people names however IS trolling. Also posting to make absolutely no contribution to threads like you do, is trolling.

Azrael

14-Oct-2005, 10:44

ims

14-Oct-2005, 10:45

London-boy stop flamebaiting. If you want to carry out your petty arguments with azrael take it to PM's or use your ignore lists.

london-boy

14-Oct-2005, 10:49

*Wait's patiently* for any contribution you make to this thread besides attacking me for expressing an opinion that was, actually, on topic. :shock:

Calling someone who created the biggest racing franchise in the world ignorant isn't "an opinion". It's trolling. *whether you like the GT series or not*
My contribution was on the first page. There's hardly anything to contrubute to a thread like this anyway.

EDIT: no actually i didn't post in the first page, must have confused this thread with the Stringer one.

London-boy stop flamebaiting. If you want to carry out your petty arguments with azrael take it to PM's or use your ignore lists.

When do you get to comment on what I post? No one's flamebaiting here.

Azrael

14-Oct-2005, 10:57

Here, let me fix that for you.

In my opinion, Calling someone who created the biggest racing franchise in the world ignorant isn't "an opinion". It's trolling, in my opinion *whether you like the GT series or not*
My contribution was on the first page. There's hardly anything to contrubute to a thread like this anyway.

EDIT: no actually i didn't post in the first page, must have confused this thread with the Stringer one, so I am the one that is really trolling here.

When do you get to comment on what I post? No one's flamebaiting here, which is my opinion.

Pathetic, really, in my opinion.

london-boy

14-Oct-2005, 11:00

Fine. Keep it up man.

3roxor

14-Oct-2005, 11:37

More and more Devs are voicing their opinion about the PS3 and it's sounding great.

Neme

14-Oct-2005, 11:41

OK, Yamauchi is not ignorant of what rendering photo-realistic computer graphics really takes, his team created one of the most photo-realistic videogame in history, in my opinion. :wink:

PC-Engine

14-Oct-2005, 12:40

Yamauchi could create a photorealistic game on Xbox 360 too if he wanted to...

london-boy

14-Oct-2005, 12:41

Yamauchi could create a photorealistic game on Xbox 360 too if he wanted to...

Obvious but you'll never hear him say it! :wink:

Sindre

14-Oct-2005, 12:49

Obvious but you'll never hear him say it! :wink:

MS could probably not buy him out for an insane amout of $ either. But, you never know what money can do to you;-)

Wha's really interesting to me is his so close involvment with the PlayStation Platform from the beginning. I had no idea;

What have been your favourite PlayStation projects to work on?

That would have to be having been part of the start-up team for PlayStation. Software strategies, hardware design, or details of the designs of the controller were all decided by this small group. My family runs a cram school, and the students helped us by being the first testers of the PlayStation controller, which was then still in development. Hardware teams and software teams worked closely together in a family-like atmosphere to help the PlayStation project move forward.

london-boy

14-Oct-2005, 12:55

MS could probably not buy him out for an insane amout of $ either. But, you never know what money can do to you;-)

Wha's really interesting to me is his so close involvment with the PlayStation Platform from the beginning. I had no idea;

Heh, if MS ever came out with an offer, i'm 1000% sure Sony will do ANYTHING to keep him. I mean, GT one of the pillars in the Playstation franchise as a whole, and he's the creator of GT.

Personally, i think GT needs a good revamp. Hopefully they'll get over their stuck-up-ness (damage, strange physics and other little things that have always been "not right" with GT games and have been fixed in other racers) for the PS3 versions.

Sindre

14-Oct-2005, 13:12

Personally, i think GT needs a good revamp. Hopefully they'll get over their stuck-up-ness (damage, strange physics and other little things that have always been "not right" with GT games and have been fixed in other racers) for the PS3 versions.

Well yeah, I agree with some stuck-up-ness in the GT series, but on the other hand I kinda like his/their philosophy concerning "let's do something (for example damage) 100% or let's not at all".

I remember him saying something along the lines of "Yes, we have ran some tests with damage, we have simulated it, and as of now we are not satisfied with the results we would achieve with current hardware."
I also think he said that in 90% or 95% of all crash-situations at high speed, like in most races in GT, the cars would depart in literally thousands of small pieces and it was just not possible with the PS2, but it wuld be on the top od his list in future versions.

Shifty Geezer

14-Oct-2005, 13:35

Yamauchi could create a photorealistic game on Xbox 360 too if he wanted to...Maybe. But maybe he's looking at some raytracing going on down in PS3 which XB360 wouldn't perhaps be as capable of? I think it fairer to say no-one's going to be creating truly photorealistic imagery any more next-gen than they were rendering ToyStory in realtime this gen.

_phil_

14-Oct-2005, 13:38

Maybe. But maybe he's looking at some raytracing going on down in PS3 which XB360 wouldn't perhaps be as capable of? I think it fairer to say no-one's going to be creating truly photorealistic imagery any more next-gen than they were rendering ToyStory in realtime this gen.

why even bringing x360 in this thread ? x360 doesn't even exist for Polyphony Digital.

london-boy

14-Oct-2005, 13:49

why even bringing x360 in this thread ? x360 doesn't even exist for Polyphony Digital.

Heh thank PCEngine...

Powderkeg

14-Oct-2005, 14:00

You don't know what trolling means obviously. Give it up. I'm not the one who called Yamauchi "ignorant".
Poisting a lot (and my post count is this big mainly because of the General Forum) is not trolling. Calling people names however IS trolling. Also posting to make absolutely no contribution to threads like you do, is trolling.

If you are going to be accurate, then Yamauchi IS ignorant.

Being ignorant means you haven't learned something, or don't know something. It's does not mean he is stupid.

Now, he's made claims that Sony is the first system that can achive a certain degree of of graphics realism. However, he is a Sony employee, and as such, has not had direct access to Xbox 360 hardware (I doubt he's considering PC hardware either). Therefore, he really doesn't know if the PS3 is the first or not, and his comments are made in ignorance.

Powderkeg

14-Oct-2005, 14:01

why even bringing x360 in this thread ? x360 doesn't even exist for Polyphony Digital.

If you are going to claim your hardware is the first to do something, isn't the achievements of your competition be factored into that statement?

Yamauchi brought the 360 into the discussion by claiming the PS3 is the first to do this when the 360 in all likelyhood can do it too, and will be on store shelves first.

AlStrong

14-Oct-2005, 14:15

well, in all fairness the entire quotation is:

"The PlayStation 3 is the first piece of hardware allowing photo-realistic computer graphics, and is the first game hardware that can perform calculations for physics simulation to the level of our satisfaction

Basically, what he is really saying is that it's the first hardware that they are working on that will be able to do what they want. There's no need to bring the 360 into discussion.

london-boy

14-Oct-2005, 14:21

If you are going to be accurate, then Yamauchi IS ignorant.

Being ignorant means you haven't learned something, or don't know something. It's does not mean he is stupid.

Now, he's made claims that Sony is the first system that can achive a certain degree of of graphics realism. However, he is a Sony employee, and as such, has not had direct access to Xbox 360 hardware (I doubt he's considering PC hardware either). Therefore, he really doesn't know if the PS3 is the first or not, and his comments are made in ignorance.

The troll said Yamauchi is ignorant about what photorealism is. Quite different and obviously not true seen how GT3 was the first game to get close to this new "movement" (bit like New Age).

Him saying that PS3 is "the only platform to blah blah blah" is not "ignorance". He's paid by Sony, he just HAS to say that. I'm sure he knows he could get "photorealistic" results from X360 too, or a PC for that matters.

mckmas8808

14-Oct-2005, 14:22

well, in all fairness the entire quotation is:

Basically, what he is really saying is that it's the first hardware that they are working on that will be able to do what they want. There's no need to bring the 360 into discussion.

QFT. Some people just don't understand where the man is coming from.

Shifty Geezer

14-Oct-2005, 14:30

well, in all fairness the entire quotation is:
Quote:
"The PlayStation 3 is the first piece of hardware allowing photo-realistic computer graphics, and is the first game hardware that can perform calculations for physics simulation to the level of our satisfaction
Basically, what he is really saying is that it's the first hardware that they are working on that will be able to do what they want. There's no need to bring the 360 into discussion.Actually there's a comma there that makes a lot of difference seperating the clauses. But then this is a translation so that meaning of the comma might not be what was present in the original Japanese. So really, everyone's dissecting an ambiguous statement as is the norm trying to get more info out of it then ever was intended.

Powderkeg

14-Oct-2005, 14:32

Actually there's a comma there that makes a lot of difference seperating the clauses. But then this is a translation so that meaning of the comma might not be what was present in the original Japanese. So really, everyone's dissecting an ambiguous statement as is the norm trying to get more info out of it then ever was intended.

I wouldn't look for info about the PS3 from him anyways. I'm much more interested in info about GT5, but he didn't give any of that.

expletive

14-Oct-2005, 14:39

What's wrong with saying it will be a movement? That is his opinion. If Steve Jobs in 1999 would have said Ipods will be more than just a mp3 player, but a movement he would have been right.

So again I ask what's wrong with his belief?

It was more of a follow-up to Alpha's comment on how all these talking-head developers are looking for new ways to extol the various consoles, which IMO is apointless exercise.

Cliff B = "A beast"
Itagaki = "<insert barely sensical comment here>"
Yamauichi = "a movement"

Alpha said it best with "It's just a new damn console. To hell with the hyperbole. Show me a true GT5."

Make the game. Show the game. Sell the game. Play the game. Let us decide if its a movment. :)

In the USA we associate major social upheaval and change with the word 'movment'

"The women's rights movement"
"African American freedom Movement"
"The anti-vietnam movement"
"THE NEXT GEN CONSOLE MOVEMENT?"

Just doesnt fit IMO, maybe somethign gets lost in the translation.

EDIT:And to fully respond to your Jobs comment; The iPod was NOT the "movement." Portable digital music was the "movment". The ipod is just one of many devices that enable consumers to participate in the new technology. ANd thats all it is, a new technology that fills a need which consumers adopt. By your statement the CD, the DVD, the VCR were all 'movements' as well.

J

_phil_

14-Oct-2005, 14:44

If you are going to claim your hardware is the first to do something, isn't the achievements of your competition be factored into that statement?

No way. except if you want to ear that in what he said.That's called Cognitive dissonance

mckmas8808

14-Oct-2005, 15:21

EDIT:And to fully respond to your Jobs comment; The iPod was NOT the "movement." Portable digital music was the "movment". The ipod is just one of many devices that enable consumers to participate in the new technology. ANd thats all it is, a new technology that fills a need which consumers adopt. By your statement the CD, the DVD, the VCR were all 'movements' as well.

J

Yes I think all those were "movements" in their own right. Billions of dollars made of these mediums. I would consider that a technological movement. I'm sure he was not comparing the Playstation movement to the Civil Rights movement that Martin Luther King help promote. He was speaking technologically.

expletive

14-Oct-2005, 15:35

Yes I think all those were "movements" in their own right. Billions of dollars made of these mediums. I would consider that a technological movement. I'm sure he was not comparing the Playstation movement to the Civil Rights movement that Martin Luther King help promote. He was speaking technologically.

I think we just interpret it differently. I read it as if he was comparing game console technology to major social or artistic 'shifts' in civilization/society. Which if he was, i stand by comment comment that its a bit much.

I probably came to this conclusion because I have never considered widespread technology adoption as a 'movement' but if you do, i can see where his comparison makes sense, but i think it goes for console gaming in general.

Since a technology movement, is widespread cultural acceptance (by your definition?), i'm not sure that better graphics can constitute a movement. Honestly, i think something like the Arcade games on XBL that are attempting to appeal to a much wider audience/demographic (mom, grandma, are you listening?) would be much more suited to create a 'movement' in console gaming? Does that make sense?

J

Alpha_Spartan

14-Oct-2005, 16:14

Hehe, did trip hawkins really say that?

With all the hyperbole being used this round i wonder if they'll have any left for the NEXT gen. :)

A 'movement' though? That's a bit rich...

J

It's almost embarassing to read:

May 1, 2000 - By his praise of Sony's PlayStation 2 as "...historic, a mass-market appliance that fundamentally changes society in the way the printing press did," we pretty well assumed that that Trip Hawkins and his company 3DO would do a few games for the system. After all, only a true Master of Irony would call a game system "A new canvas for humanity that takes us back to our nature" and then skip development on it.

http://ps2.ign.com/articles/078/078771p1.html

london-boy

14-Oct-2005, 16:16

Urgh.... *cringe*
These people actually say those things in public... :shock:

Shifty Geezer

14-Oct-2005, 16:30

I think secretly they have a competition who can create the most absurd and outlandish claims. It's the only logical explanation. I mean, they can't really believe this junk they spout! Can they? :shock:

Thegameman

14-Oct-2005, 16:31

All of this companys do the same,the only one i dare to pick out is Nintendo which never macke this kind of comments,Sony and MS do them all the time is like one is trying to out PR the other every single minute,and it also show that they are more than capable of playing lies and sh** to their onw user base.

I just hope for the day when some goverment agency take accion,and ask them that if they say Toy Story graphics they do it or be penalize in big $$$$$$ for making sucker out of people.

3roxor

14-Oct-2005, 16:37

Thegameman

14-Oct-2005, 16:49

But lot's of "pr" about Cell (Ps3) have been made by devs and NOT Sony themselves. Thats what makes it interesting and promising.

Is a much better way to messure,cuz many people feal better,when they hear it from a dev or a 3rd partie than from MS or Sony.

But some 3rd partie can't be trusted either cuz they are to close to the company,AKA Tecmo and Konamy which put some funny things about Cell on MGS4 video..

Other companys that are not so close can be more trusted.

Yep but i agree with what you say.

london-boy

14-Oct-2005, 16:51

3roxor

14-Oct-2005, 16:56

PR is still PR.

I couldn't care less if a developer hypes up Cell saying that "NOW WE CAN REALLY DO WHAT WE WANT TO DO" (which by the way they ALWAYS say, everytime a new console comes out).

I want to SEE what they can do with it. Easy to talk, i'm a facts man. Less talking more action.

I agree with that too but for a dev saying: "allowing photo-realistic computer graphics" is totally shooting himself in the foot..unless there is some truth in it.

Shifty Geezer

14-Oct-2005, 16:58

PR is still PR.

I couldn't care less if a developer hypes up Cell (or anything else, like Xenos) saying that "NOW WE CAN REALLY DO WHAT WE WANT TO DO" (which by the way they ALWAYS say, everytime a new console comes out).
Indeed, console PR is as meaningless as washing powder adverts. "New improved super Ariel Liquitaball removes even dried on stains..." Only that's what they were claiming 20 years ago with their original powder. And to this day none of them work as well as they claim :roll: Rather than telling me you can now do realtime photorealstic super 'better-than-life' quality simulations, show me the goods and let me judge for myself, thank you very much.

london-boy

14-Oct-2005, 17:02

Bad_Boy

14-Oct-2005, 17:03

to be fair, i think gt3/gt4 are two of the most photorealistic games on the current gen consoles to date.

it will be amazing to see what he does with the next gen hardware.

mckmas8808

14-Oct-2005, 17:29

All of this companys do the same,the only one i dare to pick out is Nintendo which never macke this kind of comments,Sony and MS do them all the time is like one is trying to out PR the other every single minute,and it also show that they are more than capable of playing lies and sh** to their onw user base.

:lol: Buddy you must of never read any Nintendo PR. Your statement is so funny. If you only knew. Have you not heard them talk about the new Rev controller? OMG it's crazy teh PRs.

aldo

14-Oct-2005, 17:48

Well the thing is that for racing games it's much easier than other types of games to get the photorealistic look.

Some people were already fooled by GT3 on PS2.

PGR3 is pretty damn good looking and close to "photorealism" .

Cars and city environments are relatively "easy" Get the shape right (and today we have enough polygon pushing power to get the shapes quite right), get the surfaces right (and it's just a matter of good reflections and other aspects) and off you go...

It's human animation and organic stuff that's the real problem.

Yamauchi can get much closer to photorealism than, say, Kojima can. As good as MGS4/5 will look, getting a photorealistic look when human figures are involved is just nearly impossible with today's hardware.Couldn't have said it better myself. You can go here (http://www.us.playstation.com/Content/OGS/SCUS-97328/Site/) to see a side-by-side comparison of real photos versus GT4 In-game.

(Select 'Environment Element' and then the thumbnail on the far right ('real vs. in-game') when the new screen comes up. Select 'Skip Quiz' to go straight to the side-by-side shots.)

PGR3 does and I am certain GT5 will exceed this quality. If Yamauchi can hit a million triangles per car it shouldn't be a problem. Hey he said GT5 would be 100 times better than GT4. :lol: I kid. I would expect them to hit about the same as PGR3 at 80-100,000.

I am still curious about his comments last November:"So far in the Gran Turismo series," explained Yamauchi, "we haven't had cars crash or overturn. We believed expressing this properly to be more difficult than actually making [the cars] race. In addition to properly replicating the underside of the car, when a collision occurs we'd have to have proper shape changes based on proper physical calculations. In Gran Turismo 5, we'd like to definitely add this element. We believe it will be a big theme."
Crashing isn't all Polyphony is considering for GT5. Apparently, the limited EyeToy support offered in the Nike limited edition version of Gran Turismo 4 could hint at some features from GT5. Mentioning his interest in the mere idea of a game making use of images from a camera, Yamauchi states that he'd like to make use of image recognition in GT5. He doesn't go into specifics beyond this, unfortunately.

If GT5 does feature image recognition, it most likely won't be through the EyeToy.-IGN (http://ps3.ign.com/articles/607/607158p1.html)and how it might relate to this:

The power of the Cell processor was demonstrated with a “digital mirror” at the CEATEC 2005 conference held in Japan.
The booth of joint Cell developers, Sony, Toshiba and IBM featured a real-time “digital mirror” simulator powered by the cell processor. A model was seated in front of the simulator that was then able to display a 3D model of the person that matched the movements and facial expressions of the person in real-time.
In order to create a 3D model of the face of the person sitting in front of the camera, the processor first mapped 500 coordinates. Details such as hair and makeup were then superimposed onto the 3D model. To keep up with changing facial expressions and positioning, all 500 coordinates were read 100 times per second. Different hair, makeup and tattoos were applied to the model in realtime.-PS3Focus (http://www.ps3focus.com/archives/131)-aldo:grin:

expletive

14-Oct-2005, 18:34

It's almost embarassing to read:
"May 1, 2000 - By his praise of Sony's PlayStation 2 as "...historic, a mass-market appliance that fundamentally changes society in the way the printing press did," we pretty well assumed that that Trip Hawkins and his company 3DO would do a few games for the system. After all, only a true Master of Irony would call a game system "A new canvas for humanity that takes us back to our nature" and then skip development on it."

http://ps2.ign.com/articles/078/078771p1.html

Wow, I dont remember reading that back then, and I think i need a shower after reading it. :) Great example of how we go through these developers waxing poetic on the consoles with every single generation.

At the end of the day regardless of where their alliances lie, the success of a new console generation benefits all of them. So regardless of whose 'pocket' they're in, they ALL benefit by building up every generation to the consumer.

J

mckmas8808

14-Oct-2005, 18:36

expletive

14-Oct-2005, 18:44

I agree, ive always thought the GT4 was a freak of nature this gen in terms of grfx. Not my cup of tea in terms of gameplay, but undeniably a graphical tour-de-force.

J

jvd

14-Oct-2005, 19:51

mckmas8808

14-Oct-2005, 21:55

Guys come on its just hype .

Doesn't anyone remember the emotion engine and how the ps2 would be the first system to show emotion .

How about the geforce 2 and toy story graphics .

I mean come on its just hype . I'm sure we can find examples of empty hype from every company out there we could

Did you notice my screenshot? If not click on it http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/3013/gt4vsreallife8fk.jpg

The man said photorealistic not movie realistic. GT4 is close and that's on the PS2. 35 times more CPU power and a proper GPU with powerful shaders and OpenGL should give us photorealistic GT5.

aldo

14-Oct-2005, 22:30

Did you notice my screenshot? If not click on it http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/3013/gt4vsreallife8fk.jpg

The man said photorealistic not movie realistic. GT4 is close and that's on the PS2. 35 times more CPU power and a proper GPU with powerful shaders and OpenGL should give us photorealistic GT5.I don't think guys like JVD really care to check out these threads very closely. They just like to drop in, slap everyone in the face with their insightful comments and move on. In case you missed it:Guys come on its just hype. I mean come on its just hype . I'm sure we can find examples of empty hype from every company out there we couldAmazingly insightful, huh? :wink:

-aldo

TrungGap

14-Oct-2005, 23:22

I mean games like GT4, Froza and PGR2 all look really good. However, when playing those games, they still seem fake to me. The lighting doesn't really match what I normally consider real life photographic quality. Even though the texture might be really good, however when set in motion, doesn't seem real...it just seem flat. The exhaust haze/smoke, dust and clouds don't really feel real. It looks like when you take a photograph and then flatten the color and reduced the details.

Even from what I've seen of PGR3, I'm impressed, but it's still not real to me. Maybe my definition of real photographic quality is higher than others. But then there are some people call DOA life-like. :))

What's my definition of real life photograph? Do you see all the cars commerical where they featured the car with either white or black background? And the car spins around and has a shine that looks really good? To me that's it. However, that's without the environment...so it's easier to fool the eyes.

Edit: PS, looking like real life doens't mean it looks good. And looking good doesn't mean it has to look like real life.

dukmahsik

15-Oct-2005, 00:39

Azrael

15-Oct-2005, 00:55

Thanks for posting the website aldo. This is from the GT4 website.

http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/3013/gt4vsreallife8fk.jpg

Looks close to photorealistic to me. Defenitely for a PS2 game.:shock:

Close to photorealistic? Maybe if you mean poor quality, over-compressed, bad eyesight photorealistic.
File this under 'Degrade the real picture so it makes our game look better'.

mckmas8808

15-Oct-2005, 00:55

that's a horrible camera

Show it to your mom, cousin, friend, etc and ask them to pick the real picture. See of many people get it wrong. 2 people in my family got it right and 1 got it wrong. And that's the PS2. Imagine what next-gen will bring.

Again I'm talking about screenshots only, not in motion. Photorealistic not movie realistic.

mckmas8808

15-Oct-2005, 00:57

Close to photorealistic? Maybe if you mean poor quality, over-compressed, bad eyesight photorealistic.
File this under 'Degrade the real picture so it makes our game look better'.

I don't mean close as in 95% close. I mean close enough to trick a few people. If you can trick a few people then it must be somewhat close right?

jvd

15-Oct-2005, 01:02

Did you notice my screenshot? If not click on it http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/3013/gt4vsreallife8fk.jpg

The man said photorealistic not movie realistic. GT4 is close and that's on the PS2. 35 times more CPU power and a proper GPU with powerful shaders and OpenGL should give us photorealistic GT5. yup and its extremely far from photorealistic .

Let me go get a shot of mario bros for the arcade back in the day and claim its photo realistic cause mario kinda looks like a real person .

Graphics have a long way to go .

Look at the ati toy shop demo . Even that which is basicly the most impressive thing i've ever seen running real time , needs a way to go yet before being photo realistic .

Its one thing to make a texture out of a photo and say hey look , it looks like the real track. Its another thing to capture everything in a real photograph .

mckmas8808

15-Oct-2005, 01:36

yup and its extremely far from photorealistic .

Let me go get a shot of mario bros for the arcade back in the day and claim its photo realistic cause mario kinda looks like a real person .

Graphics have a long way to go .

Look at the ati toy shop demo . Even that which is basicly the most impressive thing i've ever seen running real time , needs a way to go yet before being photo realistic .

Its one thing to make a texture out of a photo and say hey look , it looks like the real track. Its another thing to capture everything in a real photograph .

Stop it with the Mario jokes. GT4 doesn't look that bad. All I'm saying is that comparison pic can trick a few people and it's on the PS2. Now give polyphony a few years on a next-gen console and who knows how they can create.

Do I think it will look exactly like real-life? No I don't, but I think in screenshots it will be very, very close.

jvd

15-Oct-2005, 01:42

mckmas8808

15-Oct-2005, 02:28

to bad we don't play screen shots and in motion things need to be alot better than what you posted to even come close .

I've played gt4 and i can tell u its no where near photo realistic esp if you've ever been to any of the race tracks . There is just detail that you don't see in the game that a decent camera will show u

jvd, jvd, jvd hold on please. I'm ONLY talking about screenshots as in photorealistic. I'm am in no way talking about in motion. GT4 looks nowhere near photorealistic in motion.

jvd

15-Oct-2005, 02:31

and even in screen shots it doesn't look photo realistic . Those photos shown are pretty bad shots . What camera were they taken on a 1 mega pixel camera phone ?

randycat99

15-Oct-2005, 02:37

He's about to spew the now infamous, "...but it's not 100%, so I'm actually right" argument. :roll:

mckmas8808

15-Oct-2005, 03:16

He's about to spew the now infamous, "...but it's not 100%, so I'm actually right" argument. :roll:

Oh who's about to say that?

randycat99

15-Oct-2005, 03:22

[not referring to you- see real troll below]

jvd

15-Oct-2005, 03:25

Oh who's about to say that?

don't worry about him , he is just trolling as normal not adding anything to the thread

TrungGap

15-Oct-2005, 03:40

The GT4 comparison real life shots are pretty bad. They probably hand picked the shots that closely matched the console shots. Let's look another shot of GT4:

http://firingsquad.com/games/gran_turismo_4/images/79.jpg

Yes, it's an amazing picture. But to me it's not close to a real photographic shot. I'm sure next gen will bring us closer to a real photographic shot, but will not bring us photographic quality. The reason I have have my doubts is considering offline renders (with all it's tricks) have yet to totally convience me.

Bad_Boy

15-Oct-2005, 07:41

I dont care what anyone says, i still stand by it... GT4 + GT3 are two of the most photorealistic games we have today on current gen consoles. And i cannot wait to see what they do with the ps3 hardware.

and just to clear that statement up.... when i say "most photorealistic", i do not mean they ARE photorealistic, but the games on the current consoles that looks the most like real life.

MBDF

15-Oct-2005, 08:59

Guden Oden

15-Oct-2005, 10:28

Sounds like he's enthusiastic about the next generation PlayStation, and why not... are developers not allowed to express their feelings. (this is directed towards those comments about it being no more than PR drivel)
Talking the talk is worthless, no matter if it's Sony devs or MS devs doing the talking. Let's see them walking the walk instead. :D

Of course, particulary with PS3 that is going to be difficult, seeing as the launch is some ways off still (and no date set either, publically at least). Devs will not be able/allowed to show their work on final hardware for months, so until then we can't judge how good the hardware really is. Devs being "enthusiastic" may count for nothing, if that enthusiasm is purely fuelled by Sony/MS money...

MBDF

15-Oct-2005, 12:27

Talking the talk is worthless, no matter if it's Sony devs or MS devs doing the talking. Let's see them walking the walk instead. :D

Of course, particulary with PS3 that is going to be difficult, seeing as the launch is some ways off still (and no date set either, publically at least). Devs will not be able/allowed to show their work on final hardware for months, so until then we can't judge how good the hardware really is. Devs being "enthusiastic" may count for nothing, if that enthusiasm is purely fuelled by Sony/MS money...

I agree, though I think Kaz is just genuinely exited.... as is, yes, Allard, and co. about the prospects that their respective system brings to the table... but yeah, it is part of their job to sell products.... though it helps that it's a product they believe in and not a new pair of Nike's... what I mean is I'm sure they are as exited as we are, and that's a good thing.

Though sometimes yes... a little too exited :cool:

mckmas8808

15-Oct-2005, 21:50

I agree, though I think Kaz is just genuinely exited.... as is, yes, Allard, and co. about the prospects that their respective system brings to the table... but yeah, it is part of their job to sell products.... though it helps that it's a product they believe in and not a new pair of Nike's... what I mean is I'm sure they are as exited as we are, and that's a good thing.

Though sometimes yes... a little too exited :cool:

How can you say they may be too excited when you haven't seen what they have been able to do. We here are very defensive because we don't want to get our hopes up only to be kicked down with dissappointed games. They know what they are creating we don't.

Let me show you what GT5 looks like now. Keep in mind this game is at least one year away and has not even closely seen the RSX or the RSX -> CELL connectivity.

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/96/vgt33op.jpg

I know bad quality. This is NOT direct feed.

jvd

15-Oct-2005, 21:53

well call me excited , i can't wati to play a game with one blue car zoomed relaly close and no back rounds or track

pegisys

15-Oct-2005, 22:00

mckmas8808

15-Oct-2005, 22:01

well call me excited , i can't wati to play a game with one blue car zoomed relaly close and no back rounds or track

So, are you saying that the cars will probably not look like this on the track?

overclocked

15-Oct-2005, 22:29

There was esp one track in GT3 i remember from when looking at the replays/at night and rain), that fooled me. It atleast to my eyes looked real.

IMO this "real" look many wants etz. For me thats kind of a 2-way road because of many things.

Ex i have find many things in games or "gameworlds" that is far away from "real-looking" to be beautiful and gorgeus just of the look or styles of it.

If a game grabs you in and touches every aspect of your mind that world becomes alive and photorealistic or what you would call it by my definition.

pakpassion

15-Oct-2005, 22:44

How can you say they may be too excited when you haven't seen what they have been able to do. We here are very defensive because we don't want to get our hopes up only to be kicked down with dissappointed games. They know what they are creating we don't.

Let me show you what GT5 looks like now. Keep in mind this game is at least one year away and has not even closely seen the RSX or the RSX -> CELL connectivity.

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/96/vgt33op.jpg

I know bad quality. This is NOT direct feed.

i dont believe how RSX and CELL are connected has anything to do with how good the games will look. that will depend on RSX.

mckmas8808

15-Oct-2005, 23:06

i dont believe how RSX and CELL are connected has anything to do with how good the games will look. that will depend on RSX.

No you just need to do a search and reseach it. I can assure you that CELL->RSX connectivity will make games look better. I'm 100% sure of that trust me.:wink:

Shifty Geezer

15-Oct-2005, 23:18

If Cell<>RSX doesn't make games look better, it's a bit of a waste of time adding it!

jvd

15-Oct-2005, 23:42

So, are you saying that the cars will probably not look like this on the track?

Probably not esp if its laucnhed anytime near the ps3 launch. Its just a car on a black backround with no physics or other cars .

The question is can they keep that model quality with 10 other cars on the track with physics , collison , crowds and engrousing backrounds ?

This video doesn't prove they can . Its just one car on a backround and we are 6 months away from a rumored launch.

Bill

15-Oct-2005, 23:46

"If Cell<>RSX doesn't make games look better, it's a bit of a waste of time adding it!"

Err, physics and AI?

I agree, the CPU doesn't matter that much.

mckmas8808

15-Oct-2005, 23:58

Probably not esp if its laucnhed anytime near the ps3 launch. Its just a car on a black backround with no physics or other cars .

The question is can they keep that model quality with 10 other cars on the track with physics , collison , crowds and engrousing backrounds ?

This video doesn't prove they can . Its just one car on a backround and we are 6 months away from a rumored launch.

jvd just look at this video.
http://s42.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=21DZ3XPUV89H91BTQUNI5WGJ1T

*Please note GT5 will look better than this. We all know this. The Mazda and Mitsubishi Lancer are the only GT5 model cars. Also notice the movements of the pit crew at the end. *drools*

jvd

16-Oct-2005, 00:01

why would i watch something that isn't running on hardware ?

You have yet to show me anything on the ps3 that can prove to me that the car model shown will be attainable in a real racing enivorment .

Sorry cgi e3 videos don't count .

*Please note GT5 will look better than this. We all know this. The Mazda and Mitsubishi Lancer are the only GT5 model cars. Also notice the movements of the pit crew at the end. *drools*

Oh yea when did u play gt5 ?

Oh thats right you didn't , nice making baseless claims . The sony way . God the trolling has gotten so bad on this forum its not even funny . COme on sonic i know you can do a better job than this

mckmas8808

16-Oct-2005, 00:09

"If Cell<>RSX doesn't make games look better, it's a bit of a waste of time adding it!"

Err, physics and AI?

I agree, the CPU doesn't matter that much.

Search the forum please. You're new so you probably really don't know much so I understand. Read this Bill.

Some of the most interesting footage and information came at the end of the piece, when Young talked about the latest iteration of the Medal Of Honor series for PlayStation 3, currently in development at EA Los Angeles. He revealed that, while still early in development, the PS3 version of the game was already fill-rate bound, leaving 4 SPUs of the PlayStation 3 ready to be used for code-powered effects such as physics, particles, AI, and so on.

He also advanced his theory that, while only 20% of the processing power would be used for processes other than rendering in the current generation, as much as 50% would be available for AI, physics, and other such tasks in the next generation. This would hopefully lead to a much more sophisticated experience that isn't just better graphics running on a similar codebase, and while doing this, Electronic Arts is "trying to hold to a [budget] increase of 50% over the current generation" for next generation console titles.

They are using 3 SPEs for graphics sir.

pakpassion

16-Oct-2005, 00:15

No you just need to do a search and reseach it. I can assure you that CELL->RSX connectivity will make games look better. I'm 100% sure of that trust me.:wink:

please explain this ammusing assumption that Cell RSX connectivity will somehow make games look better. Intel Pentium IV 2.4 Ghz with a 6800 with theoretically AGP 8x and a Intel Pentium, IV 3.2 Ghz with a 6800 with PCI-Express offer the same Graphical Quality.

Bad_Boy

16-Oct-2005, 00:16

That pic doesn't mean much now anyway if the PGR3 guys can uses 100K poly models I don't see why the GT guys won't, but since it is a GT game I say the interiors will not be as detailed as PGR3 and the exterior will look better
that makes no sense. your comparing current gen w/ next gen? im pretty sure the pgr2 cars didnt have fancy interiors just like gt4.

but yeah anyways, im pretty sure there was an interior shot in that video, the part with the lancer.

pakpassion

16-Oct-2005, 00:17

Search the forum please. You're new so you probably really don't know much so I understand. Read this Bill.

They are using 3 SPEs for graphics sir.

umm Particles and Physics fall in CPU category, NOT in GPU category, except in Xenos, where it does ALSO handle particles and physics, but we are talking of RSX where Nvidia hasnt made such a claim. Particles and Physics are not the focus of how GOOD the graphics look. the graphics are textures, pixels, AA, HDR, not Particles and Physics which are part of the Physics makeup and control mainly by the CPU, not the GPU. get your facts straight..sir

pakpassion

16-Oct-2005, 00:18

jvd just look at this video.
http://s42.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=21DZ3XPUV89H91BTQUNI5WGJ1T

*Please note GT5 will look better than this. We all know this. The Mazda and Mitsubishi Lancer are the only GT5 model cars. Also notice the movements of the pit crew at the end. *drools*

and how do we all KNOW Gt5 will look better than this? is this a fact or your wish.

pakpassion

16-Oct-2005, 00:20

If Cell<>RSX doesn't make games look better, it's a bit of a waste of time adding it!

Cell <> RSX would be better than Cell<> Cell because Nvidia knows graphics cards, Sony wanted to , but they didnt succeed

mckmas8808

16-Oct-2005, 00:22

and how do we all KNOW Gt5 will look better than this? is this a fact or your wish.

If you knew Polyphony's past then you would know. And to include no RSX, super super low Bandwidth on beta kits, and no true RSX->CELL connectivity yet. That's why.

Powderkeg

16-Oct-2005, 00:26

and how do we all KNOW Gt5 will look better than this? is this a fact or your wish.

Anyone with a lick of common sense would see no reason not to believe that GT5 will look at least as good as PGR3 as an absolute bare minimum.

pakpassion

16-Oct-2005, 00:27

If you knew Polyphony's past then you would know. And to include no RSX, super super low Bandwidth on beta kits, and no true RSX->CELL connectivity yet. That's why.

and you forgot to Mention RSX's Memory Bandwidth is lower than 7800 GT Memory Bandwidth to an extent this low bandwith. and you talk about 'super super' low bandwidth like a Sony ******, it will not make much of a difference in visual quality. Just look at Nvidia 7800 SLI results compared to Nvidia 7800 results in terms of visual quality, there is Not much a difference as there is a limit to which the graphics chip can produce, nomatter what the bandwidth.

pakpassion

16-Oct-2005, 00:27

Anyone with a lick of common sense would see no reason not to believe that GT5 will look at least as good as PGR3 as an absolute bare minimum.

I will qoute you on this Q3-Q4 2006 :)

Edit: GT5 will have some stiff competition from Forza 2 ;)

Powderkeg

16-Oct-2005, 00:29

and you forgot to Mention RSX's Memory Bandwidth is lower than 7800 GT Memory Bandwidth to an extent this low bandwith.

RSX's bandwidth is the exact same as the 360 GDDR-3, but the 360 has to split it's bandwidth between both the COU and GPU. RSX doesn't have to share it's bandwidth with anything.

Powderkeg

16-Oct-2005, 00:32

I will qoute you on this Q3-Q4 2006 :)

Go ahead. I have no fear. It would take a fool not to believe that the premier PS3 racer will look as good as a 360 launch title.

Edit: GT5 will have some stiff competition from Forza 2 ;)

And I expect Forza2 to look better than PGR3 as well.

I even expect PGR4 to look better than PGR3. And you can quote me on that point too.

pakpassion

16-Oct-2005, 00:32

RSX's bandwidth is the exact same as the 360 GDDR-3, but the 360 has to split it's bandwidth between both the COU and GPU. RSX doesn't have to share it's bandwidth with anything.

actually the Xenos acts as a memory controller for the CPU in Xbox 360 as it goes through the GPU to CPU in terms of memory design , secondly, the RSX has 256 MB of Ram while sharing the XDR Ram needed by the Cell while in Xbox 360 there is 512 Mb GDDR3 Ram controlled by the GPU. The PS3 is centered around the Cell as the focus while Xbox 360 is centered around Xenos as the focus. Nearly the same result happened between PS2 and Xbox and the graphics card which had better visual quality won.

pakpassion

16-Oct-2005, 00:34

Go ahead. I have no fear. It would take a fool not to believe that the premier PS3 racer will look as good as a 360 launch title.

And I expect Forza2 to look better than PGR3 as well.

I even expect PGR4 to look better than PGR3. And you can quote me on that point too.

So even if GT5 is a PS3 launch title, it will look at MINIMUM as good as PGR3? With full AA and HDR at the same time which G70 architecture cant do?

Powderkeg

16-Oct-2005, 00:35

actually the Xenos acts as a memory controller for the CPU in Xbox 360 as it goes through the GPU to CPU in terms of memory design , secondly, the RSX has 256 MB of Ram while sharing the XDR Ram needed by the Cell while in Xbox 360 there is 512 Mb GDDR3 Ram controlled by the GPU. The PS3 is centered around the Cell as the focus while Xbox 360 is centered around Xenos as the focus. Nearly the same result happened between PS2 and Xbox and the graphics card which had better visual quality won.

So?

It still doesn't change the fact that RSX memory and the 360 memory have the exact same bandwidth, but the 360 has to split that limited bandwidth between both CPU and GPU, while RSX does not.

If you see RSX bandwidth as a problem, you can only believe the problem will be worse on the 360, since it has less bandwdith to dedicate to it's GPU.

pakpassion

16-Oct-2005, 00:39

So?

It still doesn't change the fact that RSX memory and the 360 memory have the exact same bandwidth, but the 360 has to split that limited bandwidth between both CPU and GPU, while RSX does not.

If you see RSX bandwidth as a problem, you can only believe the problem will be worse on the 360, since it has less bandwdith to dedicate to it's GPU.

Actually i dont see the bandwidth of RSX having much of an advantage when you compare that it doesnt do HDR and AA in some form or another at the same time even if AA has to be lowered when doing HDR but it can be done at the same time. secondly and more importantly is the functionality of Direct3d compression which MS and ATI claims can double the 22.4 GB/s bandwidth with the memory 2 times, which is how I think Bizzarre is developing in where they are applying HDR and AA at the same time.

Powderkeg

16-Oct-2005, 00:40

So even if GT5 is a PS3 launch title, it will look at MINIMUM as good as PGR3? With full AA and HDR at the same time which G70 architecture cant do?

GT5 is not a launch title. No one has ever claimed it would be either. It's a 2nd generation PS3 game.

And as an FYI, the 360 GPU cannot do HDR + FSAA at the same time either. The GPU does the HDR while the EDRAM does the AA. The PS3 can do something very similar, allowing the RSX to do HDR, and then writing the frame buffer to XDR memory, allowing Cell to do the AA.

Powderkeg

16-Oct-2005, 00:40

Actually i dont see the bandwidth of RSX having much of an advantage when you compare that it doesnt do HDR and AA in some form or another at the same time even if AA has to be lowered when doing HDR but it can be done at the same time. secondly and more importantly is the functionality of Direct3d compression which MS and ATI claims can double the 22.4 GB/s bandwidth with the memory 2 times, which is how I think Bizzarre is developing in where they are applying HDR and AA at the same time.

Another victim of PR claims I see.

jvd

16-Oct-2005, 00:44

pakpassion

16-Oct-2005, 00:46

GT5 is not a launch title. No one has ever claimed it would be either. It's a 2nd generation PS3 game.

And as an FYI, the 360 GPU cannot do HDR + FSAA at the same time either. The GPU does the HDR while the EDRAM does the AA. The PS3 can do something very similar, allowing the RSX to do HDR, and then writing the frame buffer to XDR memory, allowing Cell to do the AA.

Actually Blim from Xboxyde talked to developers of Kameo and they said it can but FSAA has to be lowered from 4xAA to do HDR thats why you have atleast 2xAA with HDR at the same time especially in the chapter of the Castle room with Bloom and HDR and bugs in the air. First I would like to see where it is noted as fact that PS3 can do something similiar because and secondly if it can it will be very tough to implement in the PS3 when you first have to program the Cell to do AA and RSX to do HDR which is another case to see because HDR of X1800 XT performs ALOT better than the 7800 GTX in terms of benchmark performances when HDR is applied. besides Id like Dave Baumann to comment is if MS said was right that developers can apply D3d Compression which allows developers to double the memory between the GPU and memory.

pakpassion

16-Oct-2005, 00:47

Another victim of PR claims I see.

if its PR i would like to know how Bizarre fit in London, Lexumburg, NY City and Las Vegas (all of these cities Fully mapped, not just sections) in a single DVD doing HDR and FSAA at the same time? i believe its because of D3d Compression.

Powderkeg

16-Oct-2005, 00:50

err wtf are u talking about ?

The xenos can do hdr and fsaa on images just fine. It can actual do fp10 hdr . THe pipelines are fully orthangal (Sp? )

Xenos is a 2 chip processor. There is the GPU itself, and the seperate EDRAM with embedded logic. It is the EDRAM that performs the AA, not the GPU.

However if the the rsx is based on the g70 then it can only do fsaa or hdr . Aside from that it must do fp16 hdr . Which while its a better truer hdr uses much more bandwidth.

Like I said before, RSC can perform the HDR, and then render the final frame to the XDR memory. Cell can then pick up the frame and perform the AA. It's a solution that uses a 2 chip/2 memory bank design, but that's how the 360 works as well.

pakpassion

16-Oct-2005, 00:53

Xenos is a 2 chip processor. There is the GPU itself, and the seperate EDRAM with embedded logic. It is the EDRAM that performs the AA, not the GPU.

Like I said before, RSC can perform the HDR, and then render the final frame to the XDR memory. Cell can then pick up the frame and perform the AA. It's a solution that uses a 2 chip/2 memory bank design, but that's how the 360 works as well.

wont that be a waste of alot of bandwidth of first RSX has to do HDR then Cell has to apply AA? first id like some links to see where Cell can perform AA

Powderkeg

16-Oct-2005, 00:54

First I would like to see where it is noted as fact that PS3 can do something similiar because and secondly if it can it will be very tough to implement in the PS3 when you first have to program the Cell to do AA and RSX to do HDR which is another case to see because HDR of X1800 XT performs ALOT better than the 7800 GTX in terms of benchmark performances when HDR is applied.

Which part do you need to see? That RSX can write the frame buffer to XDR?

Or that Cell can do FSAA? If you need proof that Cell can do FSAA, I would like to point out that the PS2's Emotion Engine is already doing AA in some games. I see no logical reason why the PS2 could do this, but the far more powerful PS3 couldn't, do you?

Powderkeg

16-Oct-2005, 00:57

wont that be a waste of alot of bandwidth of first RSX has to do HDR then Cell has to apply AA?

Cell has a different memory bank with it's own seperate bandwidth. Yes, it would use some of the XDR bandwidth, but it wouldn't use up any of the GDDR3 bandwdith at all to perform AA this way.

first id like some links to see where Cell can perform AA

The CPU on the PS2 has been doing AA since 2001. Why do you need to see proof that the PS3 CPU can do the same thing? Shouldn't it be obvious that if the PS2 can do it, so can the PS3?

pakpassion

16-Oct-2005, 01:01

Which part do you need to see? That RSX can write the frame buffer to XDR?

Or that Cell can do FSAA? If you need proof that Cell can do FSAA, I would like to point out that the PS2's Emotion Engine is already doing AA in some games. I see no logical reason why the PS2 could do this, but the far more powerful PS3 couldn't, do you?

is PS2 can do AA, Id like to see some examples

http://ps2media.ign.com/media/previews2/image/mgs2/mgs2final_6.jpg

Powderkeg

16-Oct-2005, 01:04

is PS2 can do AA, Id like to see some examples

http://ps2media.ign.com/media/previews2/image/mgs2/mgs2final_6.jpg

http://ps2.ign.com/articles/081/081661p1.html

From June 30, 2000.

pakpassion

16-Oct-2005, 01:08

http://ps2.ign.com/articles/081/081661p1.html

From June 30, 2000.

ive read this article before and another one where Sony said " unlike PS1, PS2 is very complicated", the same is the case here + multicore, multiparallel designs which makes it even harder for developers NOT to get a performance hit atleast till the 2nd or 3rd generation but by that time PC graphics will get better.

jvd

16-Oct-2005, 01:09

The CPU on the PS2 has been doing AA since 2001. Why do you need to see proof that the PS3 CPU can do the same thing? Shouldn't it be obvious that if the PS2 can do it, so can the PS3?

The cpu wouldn't be doing aa on the ps2. The gs would be using its texture fillrate to do supersampling but how many titles did that esp later on as fillrate was used to do more and more tasks that weren't "hardwired in"

Powderkeg

16-Oct-2005, 01:11

ive read this article before and another one where Sony said " unlike PS1, PS2 is very complicated", the same is the case here + multicore, multiparallel designs which makes it even harder for developers NOT to get a performance hit atleast till the 2nd or 3rd generation but by that time PC graphics will get better.

Ahh, the classic "I'm wrong, so let's try to change the subject" post eh?

pakpassion

16-Oct-2005, 01:14

Ahh, the classic "I'm wrong, so let's try to change the subject" post eh?

errr no im not wrong. im saying the performance of AA that PS2 performance is nothing compared to the performance of AA a GPU performs. AA requires alot of bandwidth and processing power and if PS3 needs Cell to do AA to have HDR and AA at the same time then then the overall power of the consoles are not dissimiliar and the games will look similiar atleast in 1st 2nd gen games , then I think Xenos will start showing its colors.

Powderkeg

16-Oct-2005, 01:16

The cpu wouldn't be doing aa on the ps2. The gs would be using its texture fillrate to do supersampling but how many titles did that esp later on as fillrate was used to do more and more tasks that weren't "hardwired in"

Generally, those developers who chose to do it used one of the VU's to run the AA algorithm while the GS does the final rendering.

Likewise with Cell you could dedicate one of the SPE's to run the AA algorithm, and the bandwidth used would come from the XDR pool, not the GDDR3 that RSX uses.

It's not as elegent as the 360's method, but it could get the job done, and the end result would be the same.

pakpassion

16-Oct-2005, 01:18

Generally, those developers who chose to do it used one of the VU's to run the AA algorithm while the GS does the final rendering.

Likewise with Cell you could dedicate one of the SPE's to run the AA algorithm, and the bandwidth used would come from the XDR pool, not the GDDR3 that RSX uses.

It's not as elegent as the 360's method, but it could get the job done, and the end result would be the same.

with SPEs lacking branch predictions, i dont think 1 SPE is enough for AA

HappyBread

16-Oct-2005, 01:19

His team got these out of PS2.

This gen:
http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/466/lotus0so.jpg
Next gen:
http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/6397/projectgothamracing32005082002.jpg

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/74/cross4oj.jpg
http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/3134/projectgothamracing32005092210.jpg

Yes, PGR3 has more detail as it should with it sporting a 80-90% increase in polygons, but those GT4 models still hold their own against "photo-realistic" (I've heard people call PGR3 that ;P) PGR3 models. So, if Mr. Yamauchi says they'll reach a photo-realistic look with PS3 I believe him.

jvd

16-Oct-2005, 01:19

pakpassion

16-Oct-2005, 01:22

His team got these out of PS2.

This gen:
http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/466/lotus0so.jpg

Yes, PGR3 has more detail as it should with it sporting a 80-90% increase in polygons, but those GT4 models still hold their own against "photo-realistic" (I've heard people call PGR3 that ;P) PGR3 models. So, if Mr. Yamauchi says they'll reach a photo-realistic look with PS3 I believe him.

actually this is PS2 GT4 ingame:

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2005/052/reviews/561066_20050222_screen021.jpg

randycat99

16-Oct-2005, 01:39

with SPEs lacking branch predictions, i dont think 1 SPE is enough for AA

Lemme guess, AA is faster with DP, OOOe, and Memexport, as well? Hmmm, have GPU's for the past 5 generations or so been sporting extensive branch prediction?...

Powderkeg

16-Oct-2005, 02:16

How many spus would this require and how much of the xdr bandwidth would this take up ?

You'd have to send the completed frame to the cell to have this done to it , or your going to have to allow the cell to acess the frame to manipulate it and that is going to end up suing alot of bandwidth

Well, look at it this way.

RSX has 22.4GB/sec bandwidth, same as the System RAM of the 360, which has to be split between both Xenos and the CPU.

Cell has a seperate bank of XDR, which has an additional 25.6GB/sec bandwidth to use.

Now, let's say we have a game which uses 10GB/Sec bandwidth for the CPU on both systems. That only leaves 15GB for Xenos on the 360, but it leaves 22.4GB/sec for RSX, and an additional 15GB/sec just for AA on the PS3.

I seriously doubt it would require over 15GB/sec bandwidth to perform AA on just 60 otherwise complete frames per second.

HappyBread

16-Oct-2005, 02:26

actually this is PS2 GT4 ingame:

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2005/052/reviews/561066_20050222_screen021.jpg

The cars I posted are "ingame" models.

*confused*

pegisys

16-Oct-2005, 02:37

Well, look at it this way.

RSX has 22.4GB/sec bandwidth, same as the System RAM of the 360, which has to be split between both Xenos and the CPU.

Cell has a seperate bank of XDR, which has an additional 25.6GB/sec bandwidth to use.

Now, let's say we have a game which uses 10GB/Sec bandwidth for the CPU on both systems. That only leaves 15GB for Xenos on the 360, but it leaves 22.4GB/sec for RSX, and an additional 15GB/sec just for AA on the PS3.

I seriously doubt it would require over 15GB/sec bandwidth to perform AA on just 60 otherwise complete frames per second.

I think the small LS on the spu's would hold it back more than the bandwidth, wouldn't you have to tile the frame to fit

I think it should be enough BW from the RSX to the gddr for AA and other backbuffer effects, and just use the XDR for everything else

randycat99

16-Oct-2005, 03:34

Let's throw down a value then, shall we? I submit that 1.5-3 GB/s should suffice to handle an AA stream. Yay or nay, anybody?

jvd

16-Oct-2005, 03:44

Let's throw down a value then, shall we? I submit that 1.5-3 GB/s should suffice to handle an AA stream. Yay or nay, anybody?

I would have to say nay .

Anyway i'd have to ask wouldn't there be a latancy from the frame to the screen ?

Would the rsx have to do the set up , culling textureing and hdr then pass the frame to the cell to have aa done and then back to the rsx to be displayed

The question would be is what do we do with the second framebuffer. We'd have 1 frame being worked on by the rsx and one being worked on by the cell correct ? So that means we'd have to transfer the finished rsx frame to the cell to the xdr so the cell could work on it and then have the rsx acess that frame again to display on the screen would we not ?

I can see that eating up alot of bandwidth and depending on the delay perhaps have a discounect with the play between your input and what it shows on screen .

Now i dunno if 'm correct .

MBDF

16-Oct-2005, 03:50

Oh yea when did u play gt5 ?

Oh thats right you didn't , nice making baseless claims . The sony way . God the trolling has gotten so bad on this forum its not even funny . COme on sonic i know you can do a better job than this

Projecting?

How can you say they may be too excited when you haven't seen what they have been able to do. We here are very defensive because we don't want to get our hopes up only to be kicked down with dissappointed games. They know what they are creating we don't.

Let me show you what GT5 looks like now. Keep in mind this game is at least one year away and has not even closely seen the RSX or the RSX -> CELL connectivity.

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/96/vgt33op.jpg

I know bad quality. This is NOT direct feed.

I agree... it will look better than that... (the video) much much better, and anyone who thinks otherwise should get a check up, because once more cars (with more cars on track than GT4) and the individual tracks get up to the level of the two cars they had on display then we should be seeing some absoloutly phenominal graphics... franky, the above shot could easily be confused for a photo.... it all comes down to the uncanny valley.... wich I'm sure will pull us out once and a while. :smile:

mckmas8808

16-Oct-2005, 04:16

I agree... it will look better than that... (the video) much much better, and anyone who thinks otherwise should get a check up, because once more cars (with more cars on track than GT4) and the individual tracks get up to the level of the two cars they had on display then we should be seeing some absoloutly phenominal graphics... franky, the above shot could easily be confused for a photo.... it all comes down to the uncanny valley.... wich I'm sure will pull us out once and a while. :smile:

That's what I've been trying to say the whole time. I know you guys realize that GT5 will look better than this. They do have over one year development time.

Powderkeg

16-Oct-2005, 04:18

I would have to say nay .

Anyway i'd have to ask wouldn't there be a latancy from the frame to the screen ?

Yes there would be latency, but since it would be a single transfer per frame, it would be unnoticable.

Would the rsx have to do the set up , culling textureing and hdr then pass the frame to the cell to have aa done and then back to the rsx to be displayed

Yes, but the 360 works the same way.

Xenos renders the frame sans AA, and then sends it to the EDRAM, where the AA is applied. The final frame (Or tile actually) is then rendered back to the GDDR3 where Xenos picks it back up to be displayed.

The question would be is what do we do with the second framebuffer. We'd have 1 frame being worked on by the rsx and one being worked on by the cell correct ? So that means we'd have to transfer the finished rsx frame to the cell to the xdr so the cell could work on it and then have the rsx acess that frame again to display on the screen would we not ?

That's correct, but again, the 360 works the same way. The only difference between the two is the fact that the PS3 would have to use XDR instead of embedded RAM, and Cell would perform the AA instead of logic within the embedded RAM.

But other than that, the process would be basically the same on both systems.

Don't forget that the original plan was to have Cell do the rendering as well as the CPU workload. It's quite capable of performing just AA with little to no noticable hit to performance.

Powderkeg

16-Oct-2005, 04:22

That's what I've been trying to say the whole time. I know you guys realize that GT5 will look better than this. They do have over one year development time.

Hey, I admitted it. Like I said earlier, there is no reason not to expect GT5 to look equal to PGR3 as a bare minimum. I would honestly be surprised if it didn't look better than PGR3, considering it doesn't have the time limit in development that PGR3 does.

ector

16-Oct-2005, 04:51

Yes, but the 360 works the same way.

Xenos renders the frame sans AA, and then sends it to the EDRAM, where the AA is applied. The final frame (Or tile actually) is then rendered back to the GDDR3 where Xenos picks it back up to be displayed.

Why don't you try talking about something you know something about?

Antialiasing is NOT a postprocess and can not be performed as one, unless you count simple downsampling.

jvd

16-Oct-2005, 05:46

Yes there would be latency, but since it would be a single transfer per frame, it would be unnoticable.

errr
http://www.beyond3d.com/articles/xenos/index.php?p=04

the xenos while has two cores on the package is very diffrent from two sperate chips . Its better to think of it as one chip split into 2

ATI's calculations lead to a colour and z bandwidth demand of around 26-134GB/s at 8 pixels with 4x Multi-Sampling AA enabled at High Definition TV resolutions. The lower end of that bandwidth figure is derived from having 4:1 colour and Z compression, however the lossless compression techniques are only optimal when there are no triangle edges intersecting a pixel, but with the presumed high geometry detail within a next generation console titles the opportunities for achieving this compression ratio across the entire frame will be reduced. So, with 256GB/s of bandwidth available in the eDRAM frame buffer there should always be sufficient bandwidth for achieving 8 pixels per clock with 4x Multi-Sampling FSAA enabled and as such this also means that Xenos does not need any lossless compression routines for Z or colour when writing to the eDRAM frame buffer.

The question is where is the ps3 going to find 26 - 134gb/s a second of bandwidth . Its either going to eat up the texture ram or its going to eat up the xdr ram bandwidth just for 4x fsaa .

That's correct, but again, the 360 works the same way. The only difference between the two is the fact that the PS3 would have to use XDR instead of embedded RAM, and Cell would perform the AA instead of logic within the embedded RAM

Right but the edram is 10 megs so the tiles are in 10 meg chunks . What is the ram for the spu 256kbs ? or is it less . That is alot of tiles to stream in . It iwll be a hell of alot more than 3 titles and swaping them back and forth is going to eat up bandwidth. Then of course you have to send the finished product back to the rsx to be displayed.

I'm sure the ps3 can do fsaa and hdr i just don't think it will be worth the trade off in rendering performance. However that is if the rsx can not do fsaa + hdr

pakpassion

16-Oct-2005, 06:30

Hey, I admitted it. Like I said earlier, there is no reason not to expect GT5 to look equal to PGR3 as a bare minimum. I would honestly be surprised if it didn't look better than PGR3, considering it doesn't have the time limit in development that PGR3 does.

thats if the RSX is better than G72 or even if its better then 7800 Ultra

the one thing that has struck me is that why are so many of PS3 top games coming a year after its launch. is it THAT difficult to develop that top games like MGS, GT5, DMC4 cant be release games since development would begin more than a year and a half before the supposed PS3 US launch.

drpepper

16-Oct-2005, 06:40

thats if the RSX is better than G72 or even if its better then 7800 Ultra

the one thing that has struck me is that why are so many of PS3 top games coming a year after its launch. is it THAT difficult to develop that top games like MGS, GT5, DMC4 cant be release games since development would begin more than a year and a half before the supposed PS3 US launch.

These games that you mention have been historically released "when it's done" and is independent of launch. Except maybe for GT. I remembered Sony forcing PD to release GT2 out early for holiday release, and look what happened to it. Basically you were playing the beta version with horrible collision detection. I don't think Sony will make that mistake again and will tell their premier developers to "take their time."

You don't tell Kojima to hurry up with MGS4 in the same way you don't tell Michelangelo to hurry up with the ceiling of the Sistine chapel.

MBDF

16-Oct-2005, 06:43

jvd

16-Oct-2005, 06:50

One thing I find interesting is that the G70 at 550 mhz is equivilent to a 32 pixel pipe 7800 GTX at stock speeds... now when thought of that way... it's not hard to imagine the RSX, even mostly resembling the G70 being quite the beast.

except your not factoring bandwidth .

Anyway we don't know what the rsx will be. It could be a 550mhz g70 with a quad disabled . Or it could be a 550mhz g70 with an extra quad making it even more powerfull .

However we do kow about the bandwidth

pakpassion

16-Oct-2005, 07:00

One thing I find interesting is that the G70 at 550 mhz is equivilent to a 32 pixel pipe 7800 GTX at stock speeds... now when thought of that way... it's not hard to imagine the RSX, even mostly resembling the G70 being quite the beast.

well then considering the Xbox 360 has more pipes than X1800 XT with better performance with each unified pipe structure at 500 Mhz, it looks like even more of a beast. Also consider that for the Cell to get more than 256 of ram it needs to go through RSX, wasting bandwidth, for RSX to need more than 256 of ram it needs to go through Cell, further waste of bandwidth, then considering that RSX uses the same architecture and technology as G70 which seemingly is rather very poor or cannot do HDR and AA at the same time, the Cell (as someone here said) would need to do AA after the RSX does HDR which would even further waste bandwidth. At the end the performance of both machines will be the same but I believe because of Xenos it will be able to compete graphically with the R580

pakpassion

16-Oct-2005, 07:11

One thing I find interesting is that the G70 at 550 mhz is equivilent to a 32 pixel pipe 7800 GTX at stock speeds... now when thought of that way... it's not hard to imagine the RSX, even mostly resembling the G70 being quite the beast.

lets look at this logic:

http://www.gamepc.com/labs/view_content.asp?id=xfx7800gtxoc&page=5

this site has the 7800 GTX overclocked from 430 Mhz to 500 Mhz, just 50 Mhz below the RSX with a lower memory core Bandwidth:

Half Life 2 1600x res

Stock: 129.8
OC: 138.1

Battlefield 2 1600x res

Stock: 74.6
OC: 81.5

Fear Demo 1600x res

Stock: 23.1
OC: 25

Far Cry HDR 1600x res

Stock: 42.1
OC: 46.7

add around + 3-4 fps for 50 Mhz more

MBDF

16-Oct-2005, 07:18

Also consider that for the Cell to get more than 256 of ram it needs to go through RSX, wasting bandwidth, for RSX to need more than 256 of ram it needs to go through Cell, further waste of bandwidth

I'm not sure why Cell would need more access than 256 MB of ram.

then considering that RSX uses the same architecture and technology as G70 which seemingly is rather very poor or cannot do HDR and AA at the same time, the Cell (as someone here said) would need to do AA after the RSX does HDR which would even further waste bandwidth. At the end the performance of both machines will be the same but I believe because of Xenos it will be able to compete graphically with the R580

I wouldn't classify it as very poor... as you said yourself, you expect it to compete quite evenly with Xenos... as for bandwidth, RSX has yet to have been finalized, so who knows... we could see a jump to 256 bit memory, and/or some other tweaks... either way, I expect the IQ between both machines to be similar.

jvd

16-Oct-2005, 07:19

IN that test both the memory and gpu itself were increased .

Finding a test where the gpu only is increased in speed or the ram is increased in speed (or both independent of each other ) would give u a better picture of how much diffrence .

I would expect at 1600x1200 with 4x fsaa and 8x aniso on as your benchmarks have it would be very bandwidth limited and of course even a small 25mhz increase in memory speed (effective 50mhz) would increase the speed

edit

THe ram is running at 675mhz on a 256bit bus giving you almost double the ram bandwidth to this video card than the rsx will have to its gdr ram . I believe you'd haev to infact devote the bandwidth from both the xdr and gddr ram to equal the amounto f bandwidth that this gpu has avalible to it and that would leave no bandwidth for the cpu . SO that is unlikely .

jvd

16-Oct-2005, 07:21

I wouldn't classify it as very poor... as you said yourself, you expect it to compete quite evenly with Xenos... as for bandwidth, RSX has yet to have been finalized, so who knows... we could see a jump to 256 bit memory, and/or some other tweaks... either way, I expect the IQ between both machines to be similar.

a 256bit bus or faster ram will only increase the cost of the unit and i don't see them doing it . Of course your now talking with gdr 700mhz double the bandwidth avalible . But as we see from the pc add in cards the 256bit bus scales down in price very slowly and we only see it in the mid highend of the spectrum (With cards being phased out like the 9800pros hitting the 200$ mark) normaly around 300 and up .

pakpassion

16-Oct-2005, 07:21

I'm not sure why Cell would need more access than 256 MB of ram.

I wouldn't classify it as very poor... as you said yourself, you expect it to compete quite evenly with Xenos... as for bandwidth, RSX has yet to have been finalized, so who knows... we could see a jump to 256 bit memory, and/or some other tweaks... either way, I expect the IQ between both machines to be similar.

It has already been finalised.

http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2005/0518/kaigai02l.gif

jvd

16-Oct-2005, 07:25

well clock speeds can change slightly. I could see another 200-400mhz on the cell and mabye another 50mhz on the gpu. But i don't see ram moving much as even in spring 2006 gdr 700 would be very expensive .

MBDF

16-Oct-2005, 07:32

a 256bit bus or faster ram will only increase the cost of the unit and i don't see them doing it . Of course your now talking with gdr 700mhz double the bandwidth avalible . But as we see from the pc add in cards the 256bit bus scales down in price very slowly and we only see it in the mid highend of the spectrum (With cards being phased out like the 9800pros hitting the 200$ mark) normaly around 300 and up .

So I'll ask you, do you think the RSX will be bandwidth limited according to it's needs?

Personaly I would like to see a 256-bit bus, however expensive it might be, as with in RPG's I like to level up much more than is required before a boss fight... that's just my style... I'm sure though It will defy my expectations regardless.

pakpassion

16-Oct-2005, 07:32

hugo

16-Oct-2005, 07:44

well then considering the Xbox 360 has more pipes than X1800 XT with better performance with each unified pipe structure at 500 Mhz, it looks like even more of a beast. Also consider that for the Cell to get more than 256 of ram it needs to go through RSX, wasting bandwidth, for RSX to need more than 256 of ram it needs to go through Cell, further waste of bandwidth, then considering that RSX uses the same architecture and technology as G70 which seemingly is rather very poor or cannot do HDR and AA at the same time, the Cell (as someone here said) would need to do AA after the RSX does HDR which would even further waste bandwidth. At the end the performance of both machines will be the same but I believe because of Xenos it will be able to compete graphically with the R580

Why do you say that the RSX cannot handle HDR and AA at the same time?We're talking about a GPU which has 300+M transistors with undisclosed specs even until today.The Cell processor can communicate directly with the RSX without going through a south bridge.So why are you saying that it's a bottleneck in the setup?There is even a possibility that the PS3 can have 512mb of XDR at the last minute if they wanted to.Sony now has the time advantage.You never know..they are full of surprises as the console launch get nearer.I am very certain that Sony is aware of every single flaw that their console will have now because they have the Xbox 360 to compare.They are still making minor changes to the Cell today and it would be foolish if they're not doing it with the RSX.

jvd

16-Oct-2005, 07:45

So I'll ask you, do you think the RSX will be bandwidth limited according to it's needs?

Personaly I would like to see a 256-bit bus, however expensive it might be, as with in RPG's I like to level up much more than is required before a boss fight... that's just my style... I'm sure though It will defy my expectations regardless.

I think the rsx will be bandwidth limited surely . I think you can never have enough bandwidth avalible . However its all about balance and I dunno how balanced things will be.

I think if the rsx can do hdr and fsaa at the same time it will be very bandwidth limited . But if it can't and can only do one or the other then it should be fine . I just don't really see any 1080p 4x fsaa with fp 16 hdr games coming to the market with decent graphics .

IT will be interesting to see what hte ps3 devs come up with and if they can use the raw power of the cell and the rsx to its fullest or will the lack of some features missing compared to the xenos handy cap it through out its life ? (i.e fsaa and hdr)

hugo

16-Oct-2005, 07:46

Consoles only get downgraded looking at thier history.

Did the Xbox 360's specs got downgraded?

jvd

16-Oct-2005, 07:53

Why do you say that the RSX cannot handle HDR and AA at the same time?We're talking about a GPU which has 300+M transistors with undisclosed specs even until today.The Cell processor can communicate directly with the RSX without going through a south bridge.So why are you saying that it's a bottleneck in the setup?There is even a possibility that the PS3 can have 512mb of XDR at the last minute if they wanted to.Sony now has the time advantage.You never know..they are full of surprises as the console launch get nearer.I am very certain that Sony is aware of every single flaw that they're console will have now because they have the Xbox 360 to compare.They are still making minor changes to the Cell today and it would be foolish if they're not doing it with the RSX.

The general assumption is that the rsx is based off the g70 and the g70 can only do hdr or fsaa but not the two together .

As for the cell and rsx i don't think there is a bottleneck there. The bottleneck would really be the limited amount of bandwidth avalible to the rsx .

As for the ps3 with 512megs of xdr well i think that would be the wrong way to do it . The xdr ram will be the more expensive of the ram pool and it will still be limited to 25gb/s (i think this is correct) even with the extra ram . Unless they double the bus and add more cost above the 256 megs of more ram .

You don't just go in and throw in more stuff and not have to take out others. Just look at tim sweeny and his take on the hardrive not being bundled . Over at ign he said it was either the hardrive being bundled or 256 megs of more ram . As you can see ram isn't just some cheap thing to throw in on a whim .

We aren't talking about building one ps3 here where another 20$ to the cost isn't a big deal. We are talking about absorbing these costs in the millions of units The more the ps3 costs to make the more sony is going to loose per unit or the more expensive it will cost us both of which will hurt its performance in the market place.

ANd finaly i doubt any changes are going on . If sony wants to launch a ps3 anywhere in the world this coming spring things are pretty much locked down at the design lvl . Clock speeds may change up/ down but that is about all your going to see. Its to close to a rumored spring launch. Remember they will hae to start building the systems about 3 months before the launch . I believe june is the last spring month ? so they have 8 months before june ? Subtract 3 months from that for production and your at 5 months . Then figure it takes a few weeks to a month to go from the last tap out of the hardware to mass production and we are at 4 months away.

So i'm going to go out on a limb and say that the rsx and cell are done and are now going to be taped out for bug fixes and respins

jvd

16-Oct-2005, 07:54

Did the Xbox 360's specs got downgraded? xbox and gamecube specs yes .

xbox 360 specs no . THey weren't upgraded either unless u count pre announcement when we found out they added another 256 megs of ram .

pakpassion

16-Oct-2005, 07:55

The general assumption is that the rsx is based off the g70 and the g70 can only do hdr or fsaa but not the two together .

As for the cell and rsx i don't think there is a bottleneck there. The bottleneck would really be the limited amount of bandwidth avalible to the rsx .

As for the ps3 with 512megs of xdr well i think that would be the wrong way to do it . The xdr ram will be the more expensive of the ram pool and it will still be limited to 25gb/s (i think this is correct) even with the extra ram . Unless they double the bus and add more cost above the 256 megs of more ram .

You don't just go in and throw in more stuff and not have to take out others. Just look at tim sweeny and his take on the hardrive not being bundled . Over at ign he said it was either the hardrive being bundled or 256 megs of more ram . As you can see ram isn't just some cheap thing to throw in on a whim .

We aren't talking about building one ps3 here where another 20$ to the cost isn't a big deal. We are talking about absorbing these costs in the millions of units The more the ps3 costs to make the more sony is going to loose per unit or the more expensive it will cost us both of which will hurt its performance in the market place.

ANd finaly i doubt any changes are going on . If sony wants to launch a ps3 anywhere in the world this coming spring things are pretty much locked down at the design lvl . Clock speeds may change up/ down but that is about all your going to see. Its to close to a rumored spring launch. Remember they will hae to start building the systems about 3 months before the launch . I believe june is the last spring month ? so they have 8 months before june ? Subtract 3 months from that for production and your at 5 months . Then figure it takes a few weeks to a month to go from the last tap out of the hardware to mass production and we are at 4 months away.

So i'm going to go out on a limb and say that the rsx and cell are done and are now going to be taped out for bug fixes and respins

256 mb XDR Ram

hugo

16-Oct-2005, 07:59

As for the ps3 with 512megs of xdr well i think that would be the wrong way to do it . The xdr ram will be the more expensive of the ram pool and it will still be limited to 25gb/s (i think this is correct) even with the extra ram . Unless they double the bus and add more cost above the 256 megs of more ram .

Yes I know there's a separate pool of ram in the PS3 which is separated between the CPU and GPU.But why does the upcoming finalised PS3 dev kit contain 512mb of XDR instead?Does that mean that there will be some bus difference between the dev. kit and the console itself?Does the Xbox 360 dev kit specs differ from the the console as well?

pakpassion

16-Oct-2005, 07:59

I think the rsx will be bandwidth limited surely . I think you can never have enough bandwidth avalible . However its all about balance and I dunno how balanced things will be.

I think if the rsx can do hdr and fsaa at the same time it will be very bandwidth limited . But if it can't and can only do one or the other then it should be fine . I just don't really see any 1080p 4x fsaa with fp 16 hdr games coming to the market with decent graphics .

IT will be interesting to see what hte ps3 devs come up with and if they can use the raw power of the cell and the rsx to its fullest or will the lack of some features missing compared to the xenos handy cap it through out its life ? (i.e fsaa and hdr)

according to Carmack and Gabe Nevell, developers of Doom 3 and Half Life 2, the Cell isnt as powerful as people assume, especially when they come up with 2x more powerful. Sure 2x more for Realtime and CGI rendering but not for gameplay where Branch predictions is used for taking advantage of fast processors for developing apps (SPEs lack BPs). The Nvidia interview in PSM says the RSX shares the same technology and same philosophy of the G70 but its faster. well we already know its clock is faster , we dont know or think anything else can be added unless architecture is changed.

pakpassion

16-Oct-2005, 08:01

mckmas8808

16-Oct-2005, 08:05

But if it can't and can only do one or the other then it should be fine . I just don't really see any 1080p 4x fsaa with fp 16 hdr games coming to the market with decent graphics .

Well if the game is 1080p should it need 4X fsaa? Why so much?

hugo

16-Oct-2005, 08:06

according to Carmack and Gabe Nevell, developers of Doom 3 and Half Life 2, the Cell isnt as powerful as people assume, especially when they come up with 2x more powerful. Sure 2x more for Realtime and CGI rendering but not for gameplay where Branch predictions is used for taking advantage of fast processors for developing apps (SPEs lack BPs). The Nvidia interview in PSM says the RSX shares the same technology and same philosophy of the G70 but its faster. well we already know its clock is faster , we dont know or think anything else can be added unless architecture is changed.

They can have any interview to speculate whatever they want but fact is there isn't word from Ken-san and Mr Jen themselves.So I take them as pure speculation.Technologies and philosophies can be shared but it never in any case means that the G70=RSX.It's just like saying that the G70 has HDR lighting and the RSX can do as well.Does that make them the same?

hugo

16-Oct-2005, 08:10

512mb is development kit much like PS2 dev kits had 128 MB

128mb of the same type of RAM or from a different pool?The PS3 has 2 different pools.I am not saying that the PS3 must have the same amount of RAM the dev kit but I was trying to say that the possibility upgrading the amount of RAM is surely there.

jvd

16-Oct-2005, 08:10

Yes I know there's a separate pool of ram in the PS3 which is separated between the CPU and GPU.But why does the upcoming finalised PS3 dev kit contain 512mb of XDR instead?Does that mean that there will be some bus difference between the dev. kit and the console itself?Does the Xbox 360 dev kit specs differ from the the console as well?

I doubt it , the 512 mbs of xdr may be there for debuging purpose as they have to run debuging code and need more ram . It could also be there to offset the fact that gddr 700mhz ram may be in short supply .

Look suddenly doubleing the xdr ram will double the xdr ram costs . Then it will increase the pcb costs . It also will not be all that usefull as the cell is going to be eating up some of that bandwidth . So lets say for fun the cell chip will use 5gb/s of badnwidth. That leaves 20gb/s of badnwidht less. Where as they could have put in cheaper gddr 3 ram and have the 22gb/s ram bandwidth .

I jsut don't see more than 256/256 happening. Sony already has the larger transistor counts and a next gen optical drive and while ms can take out the hardrive and have a cheap 300$ sku i doubt sony will make a ps3 with only a dvd drive . So they will most likely be at a cost disadvantage .

according to Carmack and Gabe Nevell, developers of Doom 3 and Half Life 2, the Cell isnt as powerful as people assume, especially when they come up with 2x more powerful. Sure 2x more for Realtime and CGI rendering but not for gameplay where Branch predictions is used for taking advantage of fast processors for developing apps (SPEs lack BPs). The Nvidia interview in PSM says the RSX shares the same technology and same philosophy of the G70 but its faster. well we already know its clock is faster , we dont know or think anything else can be added unless architecture is changed.

I don't know what the cell chips capabilitys are in practice. I know that on paper its a flops beast but from what i understand its not an interger beast. How that translate into game performance i don't know and idon't feel like getting into it .

All i will say is i expect anything done on the xbox 360 to be done on the ps3 and vice versa with the xbox having some strengths and the ps3 having other strengths of course .

The only thing i'm interested in about the rsx is if it can do hdr + fsaa as i believe this is the major disadvantage compared to the xenos .

hugo

16-Oct-2005, 08:25

I jsut don't see more than 256/256 happening. Sony already has the larger transistor counts and a next gen optical drive and while ms can take out the hardrive and have a cheap 300$ sku i doubt sony will make a ps3 with only a dvd drive . So they will most likely be at a cost disadvantage .

All i will say is i expect anything done on the xbox 360 to be done on the ps3 and vice versa with the xbox having some strengths and the ps3 having other strengths of course .

The only thing i'm interested in about the rsx is if it can do hdr + fsaa as i believe this is the major disadvantage compared to the xenos .

It doesn't matter much for Sony even if their console cost more than the X360 by say $200.Initially MS may get away by building their console base but Sony has long term plans to play catch up and they will eventually overtake their competitors.MS is trying to hit big just like what the Dreamcast did but if Sony executes this time with a console that has the specs advantage coupled with its establish brand,the Dreamcast fast move won't help.

The PS3 will be a complete failure if the PS3 == Xbox360.They opted to launch their console at a later date because they wanted the time to build a console with the best specs this gen.Failing to do so means target unaccomplished.

pakpassion

16-Oct-2005, 08:31

jvd

16-Oct-2005, 08:35

It doesn't matter much for Sony even if their console cost more than the X360 by say $200.Initially MS may get away by building their console base but Sony has long term plans to play catch up and they will eventually overtake their competitors.MS is trying to hit big just like what the Dreamcast did but if Sony executes this time with a console that has the specs advantage coupled with its establish brand,the Dreamcast fast move won't help.

Of course it matters .

FIrst off a 200$ price premium over the xbox 360 is a huge thing. Current info puts it at over 375$ per unit made. Meaning a ps3 would cost with your 200$ figure 575$ . To launch at 400$ they are loosing 175$ a unit . If they sold 10 million in thier first year like the ps2 did that is what 1.75 billion in the first year alone . If they price the unit at 500$ that is still 75$ loss or 750million and they will be a 100$ more than the xbox 360 premium bundle.

Loosing 750m + isn't in thier long term plans as this will will last for many years . Of course it wont stay that much but it will take it along time for thier cost to come down .

Just look at how much this attitude hurt ms this generation. They built a more powerfull unit cost be damned and lost billions a year keeping in a price war with sony .

As for your last comment about the dreamcast. Ms is far from bankrupt and has a much better reputation than sega had after failing with the sega cd , 32x and saturn.

So no i doubt sony will spend more than they have to on the unit wit hthe goal being to ramp down costs as quickly as possible as they did with the ps2 . Sony knows the sooner they can hit the sub 200$ price point the more buyers will buy the unit and if ms can hit it first and do it with out loosing millions a year it will put them in a much better position than sony will be in bleeding money .

edit * I see sony sticking with thier 200gflop cell figures and 2tflop performance figures to win the hype war and then using thier software as much as possible to get the sales away from ms . I don't see them making the hardware even more expensive even if it will give them a true graphical edge.

hugo

16-Oct-2005, 08:49

Why would it be a failure. if it weould be a failure then PS2 was a failure too because its games looked barely better than Dreamcast games which were older than PS2. the Xbox 360 graphics card from all sources seems better and Cell seems better than Xbox 360 in terms of GFLOPS. I think its ps2-xbox repeating itself all over again

Don't just think.Last time Sony did almost everything by themselves and MS launched the Xbox more than 1/2 year later than the PS2.The PS2 still manages to dominate the market.
This time with their base and brand establishment,they aim to further secure their position by aiming for a most powerful console route which they failed in the last round.

The Xenos isn't better than the RSX in all ways.It's still not as good as the RSX in terms of GFLOPS,clock rate and pixel shading capabilities.Flexibility is still the main advantage that Xenos has but for the performance crown it's still early to decide.

jvd

16-Oct-2005, 08:51

Don't just think.Last time Sony did almost everything by themselves and MS launched the Xbox more than 1/2 year later than the PS2.The PS2 still manages to dominate the market.
This time with their base and brand establishment,they aim to further secure their position by aiming for a most powerful console route which they failed in the last round.

The Xenos isn't better than the RSX in all ways.It's still not as good as the RSX in terms of GFLOPS,clock rate and pixel shading capabilities.Flexibility is still the main advantage that Xenos has but for the performance crown it's still early to decide.

Don't forget that hte xbox launched after the ps2 and the ps2 already had an established base of 10 million . It had software pricing that was lower than the xbox (it had games on the shelves for a year )

This time it will be the reverse . The xbox will be on the market and will have the larger installed base and the cheaper software .

Remember everyone starts at 0 installed base. However ms launches first which means while sony is still at 0 the xbox installed base will start climbing and it will be in the market in some places for almost a year before the ps3 is released

hugo

16-Oct-2005, 09:01

Of course it matters .

Just look at how much this attitude hurt ms this generation. They built a more powerfull unit cost be damned and lost billions a year keeping in a price war with sony .

As for your last comment about the dreamcast. Ms is far from bankrupt and has a much better reputation than sega had after failing with the sega cd , 32x and saturn.

edit * I see sony sticking with thier 200gflop cell figures and 2tflop performance figures to win the hype war and then using thier software as much as possible to get the sales away from ms . I don't see them making the hardware even more expensive even if it will give them a true graphical edge.

That's partly because MS entrusted their design partners to do almost everything for them last gen.They still lack their own fabbing plants today.

No doubt that the PS3 and Xbox360 games will not look far part from each other but I believe that the PS3 will have the slight advantage.Their early real time rendered demos are already showing better HDR lighting effects with more vivid colours that I believe is atributed to Nvidia's better pixel shading technologies.

Azrael

16-Oct-2005, 09:02

It's still not as good as the RSX in terms of GFLOPS,clock rate and pixel shading capabilities.Flexibility is still the main advantage that Xenos has but for the performance crown it's still early to decide.

GFLOPS is a useless number, as is clock rate on completly different architectures and Xenos is most certianly better than the 7800 GTX in shader capabilities by not a small margin. PS the 50 more mhz of the RSX will not help alleviate that fact either.

jvd

16-Oct-2005, 09:04

Well if the game is 1080p should it need 4X fsaa? Why so much?

of course . I play at 1600x1200 and love it when i can have 6x fsaa on my x800xt pe .

It makes the game look much better .

Also remember people will be playing these systems on 30-60inch tvs (mabye bigger) and the asailing will be much more noticable in a bigger screen than on a pc monitor .

jvd

16-Oct-2005, 09:08

That's partly because MS entrusted their design partners to do almost everything for them last gen.They still lack their own fabbing plants today.

No doubt that the PS3 and Xbox360 games will not look far part from each other but I believe that the PS3 will have the slight advantage.Their early real time rendered demos are already showing better HDR lighting effects with more vivid colours that I believe is atributed to Nvidia's better pixel shading technologies.

Well your not looking at the whole picture .

Ati's first generation of cards capable of hdr was just released. Thus all the demos we've seen from ms were on sm 2.0 non hdr cards like the x800 series. So the real time rendered demos weren't showing better hdr they were merely showing hdr vs non hdr images .

Not that one company is better at pixel shading than the other ( which has nothing to do with hdr really )

As a matter of fact ati has the advantage in speed with hdr when you factor in thier fp10 format on the xenos. This will allow them to use less bandwidth and less of ah ardware hit in general vs nvidia's fp16 or fp32 format . Of course fp16 and fp32 offer more percision but on a game that needs fp16 the xenos can step up to the plate and we really don't know how usefull fp32 will be or if the ps3 will be capable of doing it with out a huge performance hit (the 6800s had a huge fp16 hdr hit when it was enabled and the g70 still have a decent hit with fp16)

hugo

16-Oct-2005, 09:09

Don't forget that hte xbox launched after the ps2 and the ps2 already had an established base of 10 million . It had software pricing that was lower than the xbox (it had games on the shelves for a year )

This time it will be the reverse . The xbox will be on the market and will have the larger installed base and the cheaper software .

Remember everyone starts at 0 installed base. However ms launches first which means while sony is still at 0 the xbox installed base will start climbing and it will be in the market in some places for almost a year before the ps3 is released

As far as I know the PS2 bottleneck were its graphics and lack in middlewares for game developments.Game developers found it relatively hard to design games for it and yet the console is still there selling.

If MS thinks that they're going to get Sony with pricing they have a more serious competitor at their back too this time.Nintendo will be there with a console which cost chaper and a platform that developers will find comfortable developing with since they're saying it's a extention of the the Gamecube platform.

jvd

16-Oct-2005, 09:14

That's partly because MS entrusted their design partners to do almost everything for them last gen.They still lack their own fabbing plants today.

No doubt that the PS3 and Xbox360 games will not look far part from each other but I believe that the PS3 will have the slight advantage.Their early real time rendered demos are already showing better HDR lighting effects with more vivid colours that I believe is atributed to Nvidia's better pixel shading technologies.

Not really . actually in some cases it would be cheaper to outsource than to make your own fabs .

1) you have to pay the r&d on the fabs
2) u have to build the fabs (costs hundreds of millions)
3) you have to operate the fab (people , power , heating and what not costs
4) you have to upgrade the fabs

Where as with ms they
1) pay a small premium on the chips made( its already been said that umd and tmsc make razor thin margins on chips )
2) can move from fab to fab when better tech or yields meet thier goals . I.e if tmsc has 65nm ready next december but umd wont have it ready till march they can move to the tmsc line and produce 65nm chips in december. If sony doesn't have 65nm they have to wait till they have it
3) i believe fabs only charge per working chip not wafer which means it can cost them less per chip (of the same complexity or tranistor count ) than sony ( i can be wrong on this one
4) if they need more fab space they simple go to another fab and order chips from them too .

Lets also not forget that assuming a spring launch ms can have as many as 8 months of mass production on the xbox 360 units which will of course increase yields and drive down cost of the units before sony starts producing ps3s .

jvd

16-Oct-2005, 09:22

As far as I know the PS2 bottleneck were its graphics and lack in middlewares for game developments.Game developers found it relatively hard to design games for it and yet the console is still there selling.

If MS thinks that they're going to get Sony with pricing they have a more serious competitor at their back too this time.Nintendo will be there with a console which cost chaper and a platform that developers will find comfortable developing with since they're saying it's a extention of the the Gamecube platform.

Games were made for the ps2 because before the xbox was even released sony had 10 million + units sold . As a game developer would u rather develop for a 10 million + user base that is still growing or a user base of 0 that is going to grow ?

The smart money is in the ps2 even with its harder to program for cpu and gpu you didn't need a top of the line game to sell esp since early on most of the games were nothing to look at .

If this time around the xbox 360 is easier to develop for than the ps3 (which i've heard it is easier but not the gap that was there last gen) and has a larger user base before the ps3 even launches u will see alot of titles released on the xbox 360 which will only allow the xbox 360 to sell more . Then being on the market longer they will be more likely to drop prices with out taking it in the wallet as bad thus selling more units and attracting more devs .

Its not so clear cut as sony lead last gen and they will lead this gen. While i admit that is the most likely senario it wont happen when the ps3 launches and will most likely not happen untill the end of 2007/2008 before the ps3 passes up the xbox 360 .

But remember once nintendo had 90% + of the market and sega had almost 0%+ and in one generation they were able to capture half hte market from nintendo. The same can happen here. All it takes is proper pricing (Both software and hardware ) and games with good hype around them and they will capture the market or at least a very large part .

As for nitendo . They are there and may have the lower price but of course it apears the xbox 360 is the more traditional console . So i don't see them being a factor with ms this time around . I actually see them hurting sony .
For the simple fact that this year u have the xbox 360. Sometime next year u have the ps3 and then following that most likely the ns5. Now as you said you think the xbox 360 games will look close to the ps3 games . So now you hae a console on the market that can do games that look almost as good as the ps3 but most likely at a cheaper price (hardware and software costs ) and then a system with a unqiue controller and u may see sony loose some of thier hype if both nintendo and ms play things right

hugo

16-Oct-2005, 09:27

Where as with ms they
1) pay a small premium on the chips made( its already been said that umd and tmsc make razor thin margins on chips )
2) can move from fab to fab when better tech or yields meet thier goals . I.e if tmsc has 65nm ready next december but umd wont have it ready till march they can move to the tmsc line and produce 65nm chips in december. If sony doesn't have 65nm they have to wait till they have it
3) i believe fabs only charge per working chip not wafer which means it can cost them less per chip (of the same complexity or tranistor count ) than sony ( i can be wrong on this one
4) if they need more fab space they simple go to another fab and order chips from them too .

The small premium is where their money is flowing to.Sony and Toshiba's fab are not newly built.They have been operating them for quite some time even when the PS2 was already in production.MS can move from fab to fab but it shows that loyalty is not quite their ballgame and companies sees that too.

To add to this Sony may not have decided to take this route if it has more disadvantages than the goods.

jvd

16-Oct-2005, 09:34

The small premium is where their money is flowing to.Sony and Toshiba's fab are not newly built.They have been operating them for quite some time even when the PS2 was already in production.MS can move from fab to fab but it shows that loyalty is not quite their ballgame and companies sees that too.

To add to this Sony may not have decided to take this route if it has more disadvantages than the goods.

sony just built brand new fabs for the psp and ps3 so i don't know what your talkng about . They built these fabs for 90nm and below . They dumped billions of yen into them .

As for ms they are a busniess and can go from fab to fab like any other busniess. I don't see umd and tsmc not building nvidia parts after they jumped to ibm for awhile and then back again to umd and tsmc .

I don't see any of your points .

I do understand your last sentance and I agree that they wouldn't have gone with this route if there were no advantages and there are advantages but that doesn't mean that being fabless doesn't have its own advantages .

If this was the case both nvidia and ati would own thier own fabs and this clearely isn't the case

fireshot

16-Oct-2005, 09:44

As far as I know the PS2 bottleneck were its graphics and lack in middlewares for game developments.

Thats the worry for sony. Splinter Cell 4 will be as good on both consoles, possibly better playing on live. How long can sony play the most powerful card in the same contxt as Xbox?

if i am sony, i will stop internal fueding and put everything behind PS3.
360 killing sony's cash cow is scary. how many spiderman movies left?

hugo

16-Oct-2005, 09:49

If this time around the xbox 360 is easier to develop for than the ps3 (which i've heard it is easier but not the gap that was there last gen) and has a larger user base before the ps3 even launches u will see alot of titles released on the xbox 360 which will only allow the xbox 360 to sell more . Then being on the market longer they will be more likely to drop prices with out taking it in the wallet as bad thus selling more units and attracting more devs .

Its not so clear cut as sony lead last gen and they will lead this gen. While i admit that is the most likely senario it wont happen when the ps3 launches and will most likely not happen untill the end of 2007/2008 before the ps3 passes up the xbox 360 .

But remember once nintendo had 90% + of the market and sega had almost 0%+ and in one generation they were able to capture half hte market from nintendo. The same can happen here. All it takes is proper pricing (Both software and hardware ) and games with good hype around them and they will capture the market or at least a very large part .

As for nitendo . They are there and may have the lower price but of course it apears the xbox 360 is the more traditional console . So i don't see them being a factor with ms this time around . I actually see them hurting sony .
For the simple fact that this year u have the xbox 360. Sometime next year u have the ps3 and then following that most likely the ns5. Now as you said you think the xbox 360 games will look close to the ps3 games . So now you hae a console on the market that can do games that look almost as good as the ps3 but most likely at a cheaper price (hardware and software costs ) and then a system with a unqiue controller and u may see sony loose some of their hype if both nintendo and ms play things right

Where quality is concerned,Sony has already realised that their PS2 has lots of unplayable games but because they wanted quantity as part of building their games library they've succeeded at a cost that games became repetitive.Consumers no longer want that kind of same experience with every game they played and they are geting smarter today.Even Nintendo is aware of this.

Now looking back at this the next gen of consoles generally need more funding to make games and mentioned by some game developers they can only afford to make games for only 1 console at most.

Traditional console or not don't let Nintendo fool you that their console is revolutionary.They may have some creative ideas but a console remains a console.With their kind of setup it clearly shhows that they are intending to impress gamers with new ideas yet retain their cost efficiency and not to blow holes in pockets.Sony knows that and whie they wait for development cost to drop they have Nintendo to compete with MS with the lower ends.This is pretty much the same situation when Sony launched the PSP.They said it will not compete directly with the GB but what do you know it did in fact affected Nintedo handheld sales.

mckmas8808

16-Oct-2005, 10:24

if i am sony, i will stop internal fueding and put everything behind PS3.
360 killing sony's cash cow is scary. how many spiderman movies left?

You need to work for Sony. I think Howard Stringer is starting to do this now. Lets just hope the rest of Sony follows behind him. I still till this day don't understand why Sony doesn't have it's Sony Connect website pumping music, music videos, movies, and Sony owned TV shows ready to download to the PSP.

And yes Sony should start to make Spiderman and James Bond games PS3 and PSP only. I mean they do own them.

MBDF

16-Oct-2005, 10:28

Xenos is most certianly better than the 7800 GTX in shader capabilities by not a small margin. PS the 50 more mhz of the RSX will not help alleviate that fact either.

I'm sorry but you're wrong. And If you think I'm wrong then prove otherwise.

By the way... I adore Xenos... I think it is an inteligently designed GPU for a closed system, and is in many ways ahead of it's time.

Neeyik

16-Oct-2005, 10:31

I'm sorry but you're wrong. And If you think I'm wrong then prove otherwise.
Surely you should attempt to show why he/she is wrong before requesting that you are proved incorrect, yes?

MBDF

16-Oct-2005, 10:37

Surely you should attempt to show why he/she is wrong before requesting that you are proved incorrect, yes?

I would but I think the onus is on him to back up his facts first... he posted first, is that not fair?

I'll go one further and retract my previous comments of him being wrong... so long as he can explain himself...

I look forward to his response.

dantruon

16-Oct-2005, 10:56

Not really . actually in some cases it would be cheaper to outsource than to make your own fabs .

1) you have to pay the r&d on the fabs
2) u have to build the fabs (costs hundreds of millions)
3) you have to operate the fab (people , power , heating and what not costs
4) you have to upgrade the fabs

Where as with ms they
1) pay a small premium on the chips made( its already been said that umd and tmsc make razor thin margins on chips )
2) can move from fab to fab when better tech or yields meet thier goals . I.e if tmsc has 65nm ready next december but umd wont have it ready till march they can move to the tmsc line and produce 65nm chips in december. If sony doesn't have 65nm they have to wait till they have it
3) i believe fabs only charge per working chip not wafer which means it can cost them less per chip (of the same complexity or tranistor count ) than sony ( i can be wrong on this one
4) if they need more fab space they simple go to another fab and order chips from them too .

Lets also not forget that assuming a spring launch ms can have as many as 8 months of mass production on the xbox 360 units which will of course increase yields and drive down cost of the units before sony starts producing ps3s .

Ever heard of economies of scale? is the principles that suggest when a firm invest in large fixed cost in the long run such as Sony with it fabs, the proportion of total average cost increase is gonna be less than the proportation increase in total ouput, which mean that is more cheaper for Sony to manufacture their own stuff in the long run.

one

16-Oct-2005, 11:24

Where as with ms they
1) pay a small premium on the chips made( its already been said that umd and tmsc make razor thin margins on chips )
2) can move from fab to fab when better tech or yields meet thier goals . I.e if tmsc has 65nm ready next december but umd wont have it ready till march they can move to the tmsc line and produce 65nm chips in december. If sony doesn't have 65nm they have to wait till they have it
3) i believe fabs only charge per working chip not wafer which means it can cost them less per chip (of the same complexity or tranistor count ) than sony ( i can be wrong on this one
4) if they need more fab space they simple go to another fab and order chips from them too . Super offtopic but chip companies are not innocent, nice guys... why do they have to lend their brand-new, shiny 65nm lines for cheaper than 90nm lines even when yield is still low? They have customers from all over the world not only MS. Fabs may charge per working chip not wafer, but chip price will include estimated amount of wafers wasted in production. Those chip companies have to make profit out of customers pockets. Besides, Xenos daughter die uses eDRAM so practically they can't change the fab from NEC for the part.

MBDF

16-Oct-2005, 11:49

Never you mind!

Laa-Yosh

16-Oct-2005, 12:31

I'm totally freaking out on this thread. What's this stuff about Cell doing AA???
It's been discussed several times before that it's not that simple, as you'd need a massive amount of extra data that's normally kept within the GPU while doing the calculations. It's not just the framebuffer that you'd need, and the bandwith hit would be massive. I seriously doubt that any developer would resort to this...

nAo

16-Oct-2005, 12:59

MBDF

16-Oct-2005, 13:10

No matter how many times I've said this thing, I'm going to say it another time

SHADER OPS ARE A MEANINGLESS WAY TO MEASURE/COMPARE GPUs PERFORMANCE!!!! :twisted:

why? cause shader ops aren't based on a standard definition, every vendor has its own definition!

I've heard this said before (most likely by you:smile:) What exactly is the standard defenition... if there is one

What more is there to it?

I am always eager to learn :cool:

Btw, how is it working with the 7800 GTX? *too many questions*

Shifty Geezer

16-Oct-2005, 13:15

GPU SHOPS are like GPU FLOPS. You can trust every GPU manufacturer to keep stretching the definition to get bigger numbers than their rivals.

MBDF

16-Oct-2005, 13:26

GPU SHOPS are like GPU FLOPS. You can trust every GPU manufacturer to keep stretching the definition to get bigger numbers than their rivals.

Well at least I went with Controversial 112 shops instead of the Controversial 136 shops :???:

nAo

16-Oct-2005, 13:42

What exactly is the standard defenition... if there is one As I said before, there isn't, even over a single GPU architecture (ATI sometime calls a shader op a vec4 operation and sometime calls a shader op a scalar operation!).

Btw, how is it working with the 7800 GTX? *too many questions* What?

Powderkeg

16-Oct-2005, 13:44

I've heard this said before (most likely by you:smile:) What exactly is the standard defenition... if there is one

What more is there to it?

I am always eager to learn :cool:

Btw, how is it working with the 7800 GTX? *too many questions*

Basically, you will never run into a situation where 100% of the shaders are being used to anywhere close to maximum efficiency. It's comparing theoretical maximums that can never be achieved.

And in this case, you are comparing completely different architectures that work at completely different efficiency levels, and totally ignoring about a million other factors that would effect performance.

With consoles, there really is no way to do a proper comparison on a spec-level, and using PCs as a base is even worse since PCs lack the hardware-specific coding that console software normally achieves.

Really the only thing to do is wait until at least the 3rd year of the console and look at it's 3rd and 4th generation exclusives, and compare those. That's the most effective comparison, because then you can see precisely what the hardware is really capable of. Before that, there really is no way to fairly compare cross-platform abilities.

Powderkeg

16-Oct-2005, 13:53

Why don't you try talking about something you know something about?

Antialiasing is NOT a postprocess and can not be performed as one, unless you count simple downsampling.

http://media.teamxbox.com/dailyposts/xbox360/specs/xenos/04.jpg

I see 4X MSAA, Stencil and Z Test, and Alpha Blending all taking place in the EDRAM, not the GPU.

So, I guess you should tell ATI that they are wrong, and they don't know how their chip works, eh?

Or maybe you should take your own advice, and remain silent.

MBDF

16-Oct-2005, 14:01

As I said before, there isn't, even over a single GPU architecture (ATI sometime calls a shader op a vec4 operation and sometime calls a shader op a scalar operation!).?

I see I have more to learn... so it's all just marketing eh? That's a shame... something should be done about that.

What?

Well, it was none of my business, but I've recently heard that your with Ninja theory, and I was hoping to get an understanding of what it was like to be optimizing for the RSX's little brother, seeing as far as I know... that much isn't under NDA.

Laa-Yosh

16-Oct-2005, 14:07

Or maybe you should take your own advice, and remain silent.

I suggest that you
1. read up on how a GPU generally works
2. what antialiasing means and how it's implemented
3. stop offending people who are already beyond 1. and 2. and are right in what they say, unlike you.

nAo

16-Oct-2005, 14:13

IWell, it was none of my business, but I've recently heard that your with Ninja theory, and I was hoping to get an understanding of what it was like to be optimizing for the RSX's little brother, seeing as far as I know... that much isn't under NDA.
"Premature optimization is the root of all evil." -- Donald Knuth

Powderkeg

16-Oct-2005, 14:14

errr
http://www.beyond3d.com/articles/xenos/index.php?p=04

the xenos while has two cores on the package is very diffrent from two sperate chips . Its better to think of it as one chip split into 2

The question is where is the ps3 going to find 26 - 134gb/s a second of bandwidth . Its either going to eat up the texture ram or its going to eat up the xdr ram bandwidth just for 4x fsaa .

The PS3 will use the same lossless compression that PC's use. You know, the first part of the paragraph that you conveniently edited out, that's what the PS3 will do.

Right but the edram is 10 megs so the tiles are in 10 meg chunks . What is the ram for the spu 256kbs ? or is it less . That is alot of tiles to stream in . It iwll be a hell of alot more than 3 titles and swaping them back and forth is going to eat up bandwidth. Then of course you have to send the finished product back to the rsx to be displayed.

The PS3 would require the same amount of RAM as a completed frame on the 360 to do the same total job, and RSX does not stream tiles.

And this bandwidth isn't coming from the GDDR3, it's coming from the XDR, which will likely have plenty to spare.

I'm sure the ps3 can do fsaa and hdr i just don't think it will be worth the trade off in rendering performance. However that is if the rsx can not do fsaa + hdr

Just a note. This "trade off" is already being done on the PC, and the result is improved performance. Just something to consider.

Shifty Geezer

16-Oct-2005, 14:14

I see I have more to learn... so it's all just marketing eh? That's a shame... something should be done about that.Like all these things, people need to measurements to evaluate various properties, quantities and metrics, but without standards they can't be used for fair comparison. Like prior to Elizabethan regulation a pound of butter in one county of England would have been different to a pound of butter in another county, but in those counties half a pound was half the weight of one pound. That's why the measurement was needed though without being standard it couldn't be used to fairly compare different regions.

The only real applicable comparison for these consoles is well constructed benchmarks, which don't exist and never will. Fair benchmarks are rare for any industry AFAIK. Motoring has a few such as average fuel consumption is taken at given speeds etc. The next best console comparison is seeing what the average differences are between titles some years down the line, which is scientific but is at least based entirely on realworld performance. Trying to predict performance from paper specs is nigh on impossible.

Powderkeg

16-Oct-2005, 14:16

I suggest that you
1. read up on how a GPU generally works
2. what antialiasing means and how it's implemented
3. stop offending people who are already beyond 1. and 2. and are right in what they say, unlike you.

OK smart boy.

Tell me, precisely where is the hardware logic that performs the AA algorithms located on Xenos?

eDRAM or the GPU?

Laa-Yosh

16-Oct-2005, 14:19

Shifty Geezer

16-Oct-2005, 14:20

I suggest that you
1. read up on how a GPU generally works
2. what antialiasing means and how it's implementedIsn't this diagram rather misleading...

http://media.teamxbox.com/dailyposts/xbox360/specs/xenos/04.jpg

This seems to be where Powderkeg's confusion is coming from. The AA requires the subsamples to be rendered on the GPU proper, and the eDRAM only handles the blending, but as it's written there it suggests the eDRAM adds the AA without the GPU proper being involved. Of course one single diagram should eb used to understand the entire intricacies of a render process!

Laa-Yosh

16-Oct-2005, 14:21

OK smart boy.

Stop that, now.

Tell me, precisely where is the hardware logic that performs the AA algorithms located on Xenos?
eDRAM or the GPU?

The Xenos is a unique architecture. The graphics pipeline has been split into two parts, because there's no current manufacturing technology to build a single, large GPU die that also has EDRAM.
Phisically the EDRAM is a separate part. But for all other purposes, it is a part of the GPU.

Laa-Yosh

16-Oct-2005, 14:22

Isn't this diagram rather misleading...

It is, but as long as there's a long article on Xenos right here on B3D, it's no excuse. And especially no excuse for his behaviour.

Powderkeg

16-Oct-2005, 14:23

And just to make it a bit easier for you: in Xenos, several components of a GPU's pixel pipeline have been moved onto the EDRAM die, so that they can access the framebuffer without a bandwith limit. These parts are on the GPU die in RSX.

But those parts can be ignored in RSX and applied by Cell instead.

If you wanted to, you could skip RSX entirely, and render the entire frame straight from Cell.

Powderkeg

16-Oct-2005, 14:25

The Xenos is a unique architecture. The graphics pipeline has been split into two parts, because there's no current manufacturing technology to build a single, large GPU die that also has EDRAM.
Phisically the EDRAM is a separate part. But for all other purposes, it is a part of the GPU.

And RSX/Cell is a unique architecture. The graphics pipelines are made in such a way that either, or both processors are capable of rendering all, or part of the frame.

Shifty Geezer

16-Oct-2005, 14:25

It is, but as long as there's a long article on Xenos right here on B3D, it's no excuse. And especially no excuse for his behaviour.I agree.

Laa-Yosh

16-Oct-2005, 14:31

But those parts can be ignored in RSX and applied by Cell instead.

If you wanted to, you could skip RSX entirely, and render the entire frame straight from Cell.

The problem is that RSX's blending units are more suited for this task; on Cell, you'd have to use the SPEs which only work with 32 bit floats. It's overkill for the job, and it taks a massive amount of bandwith to work with a 128 bit framebuffer. As I've said, it's been discussed on B3D before, with PS3 developers, and the conclusion was that it's probably not possible in practice.

Powderkeg

16-Oct-2005, 14:32

This seems to be where Powderkeg's confusion is coming from. The AA requires the subsamples to be rendered on the GPU proper, and the eDRAM only handles the blending, but as it's written there it suggests the eDRAM adds the AA without the GPU proper being involved. Of course one single diagram should eb used to understand the entire intricacies of a render process!

And again, RSX can read/write directly to XDR, and Cell can perform the same processes as the logic in the edram.

What's the difference?

Laa-Yosh

16-Oct-2005, 14:32

And RSX/Cell is a unique architecture. The graphics pipelines are made in such a way that either, or both processors are capable of rendering all, or part of the frame.

Please, you clearly have no idea about the technological background, you just repeat Sony PR talk here...

Powderkeg

16-Oct-2005, 14:35

The problem is that RSX's blending units are more suited for this task; on Cell, you'd have to use the SPEs which only work with 32 bit floats. It's overkill for the job,

Yes, but unless your game is using all 7 SPEs for other tasks, you'll have one or more to spare, so why not?

and it taks a massive amount of bandwith to work with a 128 bit framebuffer. As I've said, it's been discussed on B3D before, with PS3 developers, and the conclusion was that it's probably not possible in practice.

Neither was AA on the PS2.

Mmmkay

16-Oct-2005, 14:47

I don't wish to stifle this debate but aren't we talking about possible techniques that wont even be considered until late second or third generation development titles for the PS3? Thats not withstanding the outlined bandwidth issues of course.

Unless there are architectural changes from the G70 in RSX which permits HDR+AA, the vast majority of games will not feature AA and anything that does will just be an exception case.

Personally, I'd prefer to engage in speculation as to what changes are necessary (if it's even feasible) to allow HDR+AA in a G70 architecture. I dont profess to have a technical background in 3D so please have mercy ;)

Laa-Yosh

16-Oct-2005, 14:49

I know I shouldn't be doing your homework, but look here:
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21747
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24127
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20758

ERP

16-Oct-2005, 18:21

And again, RSX can read/write directly to XDR, and Cell can perform the same processes as the logic in the edram.

What's the difference?

Actually it can't.
The Xenos daughter die has additional information.
If you note that in a recent response that Dave got from ATI, one of the architects stated that the actual bandwidth figure is slightly higher than the stated 32 GB/s. That's because in order to do the AA the daughter die requires additional "sideband" information (minimally coverage and Normal of the surface). It's also has knowledge of every pixel written to a destination pixel which required for correct AA. This information is not exposed at the end of the pipeline after the data is in the framebuffer the data is lost and cell can't do the job.

Cell could postprocess an image to give a sort of poor mans AA (much like a photoshop filter), but ignoring bandwidth and CPU load issues the memory cost of additional intermediate buffers is fairly daunting.

MasaC

16-Oct-2005, 18:56

How about the other way around?

Can RSX do the AA and the Cell do the HDR?

Shifty Geezer

16-Oct-2005, 19:10

How about the other way around?

Can RSX do the AA and the Cell do the HDR?Wanting CPU to do AA and GPU to do HDR or vice versa is kinda like wanting the CPU to render the scene's red and green components and wanting the GPU to render blue and alpha components. HDR is intrinsic to the rendering process and needs to be included in the render pipeline at the pixel-shader level. HDR isn't a process but an accuracy thing (though I believe HDR is rendered somewhat differently to noremal rendering).

Again, like most next-gen topics the forum has already covered this extensively. Do a search on Cell's use in post processing and AA and the like and you'll find epic threads full of all the relevant bits on info.

ban25

16-Oct-2005, 19:53

Super offtopic but chip companies are not innocent, nice guys... why do they have to lend their brand-new, shiny 65nm lines for cheaper than 90nm lines even when yield is still low? They have customers from all over the world not only MS. Fabs may charge per working chip not wafer, but chip price will include estimated amount of wafers wasted in production. Those chip companies have to make profit out of customers pockets. Besides, Xenos daughter die uses eDRAM so practically they can't change the fab from NEC for the part.

It's usually per wafer.

randycat99

16-Oct-2005, 20:40

of course . I play at 1600x1200 and love it when i can have 6x fsaa on my x800xt pe .

It makes the game look much better .

Also remember people will be playing these systems on 30-60inch tvs (mabye bigger) and the asailing will be much more noticable in a bigger screen than on a pc monitor .

This completely ignores that people will be watching the big screen from considerably farther away than a computer screen. So it is more a wash than a matter of it being "much more" noticeable. At 50+ inch screens, picture quality is suffering (even with hdtv resolutions) already from dwindling dpi- further softening from AA isn't going to suddenly make that "ok". Suffice to say, making associations between what you see on a computer monitor at 12" and an hdtv from across the room, makes for a pretty strained analogy.