g4 talks to iwata

[jvd]

They talk about the controller . He says the main problem is the controller needs to be used with both hands and it scares them . Using one hand like a remote makes htem feel more confterable. He says the core controller has enough to play games and the knunchucks will bring new ways to play fps . He talks about skins where u put the controller into a skin and it becomes like a gamecube controller ( i think ign has a mock up) He also says if you compare specs it wont live up to the x360 and ps3 specs but the final images on tvs will. They talk about price and if its possible for 200$ . He says its to early to taklk about price but he says the price has to be low to get to the non gamers they want .

Then they talk about mario for the rev. He says he is pushing on mimoyto (sp?) to make it a launch title and he hopes it makes it .

The guys at g4 (morgan , adam and the other guy) talked about how all the devs were saying how cool it was and they can't wait to make games around it .

So it seems like nintendo may get alot of development and this controller may be like the touch pad on the ds . The more i hear the more i want the controller

[Shifty Geezer]

That'll be interesting. How do they rework Mario to fit the new controller? Assuming it'll be a platformer type game it'll be a flagship for how adaptable and versatile this Revolution controller is.

[jvd]

That'll be interesting. How do they rework Mario to fit the new controller? Assuming it'll be a platformer type game it'll be a flagship for how adaptable and versatile this Revolution controller is. he didn't talk about this i'm hoping though we get a leap like we did with the mario 64 games .

[Rodéric]

His name is Shigeru Miyamoto.
I believe the controller is called "nunchuk-style".

The fact that the Revolution is not HD capable allows it to be slower and yet provide similar image quality, on standard TV set. (Which are very common)
I am expecting a launch price close to 200€.

[mckmas8808]

He says the main problem is the controller needs to be used with both hands and it scares them .



BS. This is big BS. Well we do alot of things with two hands. The controller looks cool, but he can keep the BS out of his mouth.

[Squeak]

I don't think he means scared scared, more like scared as in uneasy or uncomfortable with.
And I think he has a point, it is a nice feature that an appliance/device can be operated with one hand. Think of cellphones, cars, computers etc.
I can't think of one popular widespread consumer product that *requires* the use of two hands all the time, although some must exist.
It gives an air of casualty and "I'll just play with this for a few minutes" to it.

[mckmas8808]

I just think this "Only one hand" stuff is starting to be over rated. I mean it's a great concept but to me it's due to it's built-in gyro not because you can use one hand.

[Shifty Geezer]

I don't really go with this one-handed talk either. From the NES days Nintendo showed how great a pad could be and pioneered controllers. One handed motion-control makes sense in their latest contrller, but I don't think anyone's ever been put off of gaming by a two-handed controller. It's more likely the idea of controlling a collection of coloured dots pretending to be a car or cyber assassin or fat plumber jumping on walking mushrooms just doesn't appeal to them, in much the same way crochet and flower arranging doesn't appeal to me and never will.

[jvd]

Actually if you go back and look at the atari era most controllers needed 2 hands . But only one was used to control. The other was used to hold the controler .

Back then was when my mother and my sister would play. They played the intellivision , colecovision and the atari . 90% of the games used 1 button .



With the nes u needed 2 hands but hte controler was simple . 2 buttons and a d pad . But then the super nes came out and the second genesis controler came out and things just started getting complicated. 10 buttons is alot for people to learn esp casuals and i think they are right

[Guden Oden]

With Iwata stating openly Rev will be < PS3, x360, maybe the Certain People here who've kept insisting against both logic and reason that Rev COULD be as powerful (and perhaps even more so) as the other two consoles despite its tiny case size will just shut up about that now. ;)

Rev won't be about specs. I'm sure it'll be powerful enough with 1T SRAM main memory and all, but big numbers don't inherently make for better games.

[Teasy]

With Iwata stating openly Rev will be < PS3, x360, maybe the Certain People here who've kept insisting against both logic and reason that Rev COULD be as powerful (and perhaps even more so) as the other two consoles despite its tiny case size will just shut up about that now.

Well to be fair to him even if Revolution isn't as powerful as PS3 or 360 that doesn't prove it couldn't be if Nintendo decided they wanted it that way :)

[Guden Oden]

True, if they used their secret space-alien technology, yes... ;)

[Rodéric]

Stay on topic, I'm sick of locking threads.
(Well, you are, but forget the kiddy behavior :p)

[valioso]

I think the main concern should be, how much are the adaptors going to cost?

[Teasy]

True, if they used their secret space-alien technology, yes...

Well that's your opinion and you might be right, just saying that its not proven correct by Iwata's comment. After all a difference in specs could just as easily be explained by the difference in manufacturing price (likely $250 compared to $375).

[jvd]

With Iwata stating openly Rev will be < PS3, x360, maybe the Certain People here who've kept insisting against both logic and reason that Rev COULD be as powerful (and perhaps even more so) as the other two consoles despite its tiny case size will just shut up about that now. ;)

Rev won't be about specs. I'm sure it'll be powerful enough with 1T SRAM main memory and all, but big numbers don't inherently make for better games.

He said it may not be as powerfull but the final image will be comparable . So i don't see the problem. The gamecube wasn't as powerfull as the xbox but it put out images almost as good

I think the main concern should be, how much are the adaptors going to cost?
Can't be worse than the wireless xbox controler when you get down to it . Controller 50$ battery pack / charger 20$ = 70$ . I don't see the nintendo controler costing anywhere near that much. I'm figuring 20$ for the standard controler and then mabye 20$ per attachment ? Some might even be included with the first game that uses them

[valioso]

Can't be worse than the wireless xbox controler when you get down to it . Controller 50$ battery pack / charger 20$ = 70$ . I don't see the nintendo controler costing anywhere near that much. I'm figuring 20$ for the standard controler and then mabye 20$ per attachment ? Some might even be included with the first game that uses them

if you need an attachment for fighting games, another one for fps, another for sports.. etc... that's going to start adding up.

[Shifty Geezer]

He said it may not be as powerfull but the final image will be comparable . So i don't see the problem. The gamecube wasn't as powerfull as the xbox but it put out images almost as good I would guess the problem in performance will be apparent in non-graphical features, such as physics and AI. These factors are probably less important for Rev's key game-types which are likely to be on the lower performance requirements spectrum (Bass fishing and baseball needn't be that demanding :D). In something like an FPS Rev might, depending on it's processing capabilities, have a similar picture quality in terms of shader content and textures, to XB360 and PS3, but might have a lot less action and enemies etc. This might not be a big thing, and off course would be a trade off between Revolutionary controls and 'revoultionary' gameplay if anyone ever takes that horsepower and uses it more effectively than just more and prettier graphics.

[jvd]

I would guess the problem in performance will be apparent in non-graphical features, such as physics and AI. These factors are probably less important for Rev's key game-types which are likely to be on the lower performance requirements spectrum (Bass fishing and baseball needn't be that demanding :grin:). In something like an FPS Rev might, depending on it's processing capabilities, have a similar picture quality in terms of shader content and textures, to XB360 and PS3, but might have a lot less action and enemies etc. This might not be a big thing, and off course would be a trade off between Revolutionary controls and 'revoultionary' gameplay if anyone ever takes that horsepower and uses it more effectively than just more and prettier graphics.

That is streching . Remember the rev will be pushing a third of the pixels as the xbox 360 will be pushing .

It will only be at 480p vs 720p or 1080i of the xbox 360 and most likely the ps3. So it wont need he same graphical power to push the game . Its like on a pc . a athlon 64 4000+ and a 7800gtx may be needed for half life 2 at 1600x1200 but only a athlon 64 3500+ and a x800xl would be needed for 800x600 . You can still put the same effects both and while the second set up isn't as powerfull the image will be pretty close to final .

We will just have to wait .

[mckmas8808]

That is streching . Remember the rev will be pushing a third of the pixels as the xbox 360 will be pushing .

It will only be at 480p vs 720p or 1080i of the xbox 360 and most likely the ps3. So it wont need he same graphical power to push the game . Its like on a pc . a athlon 64 4000+ and a 7800gtx may be needed for half life 2 at 1600x1200 but only a athlon 64 3500+ and a x800xl would be needed for 800x600 . You can still put the same effects both and while the second set up isn't as powerfull the image will be pretty close to final .

We will just have to wait .

JVD that would still put the Rev at a disadvantage though. PS3 and X360 games are made in HD. If someone plays them on a SDTV then they get AA for free. If someone plays Rev games on their HDTVs then you will not get any advantage. Plain and simple!!! You can't argue against HD games. There is no wait and see.

[Rodéric]

JVD that would still put the Rev at a disadvantage though. PS3 and X360 games are made in HD. If someone plays them on a SDTV then they get AA for free. If someone plays Rev games on their HDTVs then you will not get any advantage. Plain and simple!!! You can't argue against HD games. There is no wait and see.

At least two point must be made (IMO) :
1- HD TVs are not common in most continents.
2- Revolution target is NOT the hardcore gamer which have home theater and HD TV. (But those might buy it for its gameplay rather than graphic galor.)

[mckmas8808]

At least two point must be made (IMO) :
1- HD TVs are not common in most continents.
2- Revolution target is NOT the hardcore gamer which have home theater and HD TV. (But those might buy it for its gameplay rather than graphic galor.)

Isn't this the beginning of HD gaming? MS has been saying this for a few months now. And I agree with them 100%. HD gaming has to start somewhere am I right? 2006 is that perfect time imho. Too many people on this very smart board complain about HD due to the lack of people that have them. 2006 will have people buying HD games, HD movies, and more HD availiable channels. Due to all of that and pricing coming down with HDTVs people will have no reason NOT to get a HDTV right? Got to remember content will get more people to buy hardware than the hardware itself.

[Shifty Geezer]

Its like on a pc . a athlon 64 4000+ and a 7800gtx may be needed for half life 2 at 1600x1200 but only a athlon 64 3500+ and a x800xl would be needed for 800x600 . You can still put the same effects both and while the second set up isn't as powerfull the image will be pretty close to final .
Yes, graphically, but my point was on gameplay. Where XB360 and PS3 can have advanced physics and stuff, a lesser processor won't be able to cope with as much. That's independent of display resolution. The number of AI entities and complexity of the fluid dynamic modelling has nothing to do with 480p or 720p. eg. The LOD demo of PS3. Imagine that were turned into a game somehow. Revolution presumably won't be able to manage that game by being less powerful hardware. And in a football game where maybe the alternative consoles can do some advanced simulation/animation thing, with less processing power Revolution could be limited to existing gameplay. That's what I'm talking about; leveraging the masses of available float performance for new gameplays. Nintendo have taken the path of a different control interface instead. The question is how different is the hardware going to be in performance and will XB360+PS3 get new gameplay features that make the most of this power or not.

Isn't this the beginning of HD gaming?MS might want you to believe so, but as long as people don't have HDTVs their really just spouting PR. did the age of colour TV start with the first ever colour TV set? Or with 15% penetration of colour sets?

[mckmas8808]

MS might want you to believe so, but as long as people don't have HDTVs their really just spouting PR. did the age of colour TV start with the first ever colour TV set? Or with 15% penetration of colour sets?


I get it, but shouldn't people have a reason to buy HDTVs? All I hear is, "I don't have a reason to upgrade." Well people are getting that reason starting next year. Samething happened with Broadband. Once prices fell and the content was good enough to upgrade the people did it. You need HD content to push HDTV not more hardware to sell in stores first. The content will push HDTV sells. That's automatic.

[jvd]

JVD that would still put the Rev at a disadvantage though. PS3 and X360 games are made in HD. If someone plays them on a SDTV then they get AA for free. If someone plays Rev games on their HDTVs then you will not get any advantage. Plain and simple!!! You can't argue against HD games. There is no wait and see.

Disadvantage of what ? I will tell u this much the most common tv set any next gen system will be pluged into are standard ld tvs that do 480i . 480p will look great esp if they have a gpu that will deliver free fsaa at that res and I think even a x800xl can give u 6x fsaa free at 640x480

[mckmas8808]

You might not want to use that "for free" talk that loosely after some discoveries of X360 games.

[jvd]

You might not want to use that "for free" talk that loosely after some discoveries of X360 games.

Or you should learn what for free means in the gpu world .

at 640x480 my x800xt pe takes no hit running farcry with 6x fsaa enabled , it runs at a steady 120fps which is my refresh rate . I suspect i'm cpu bound .

Thus a x800xl should have no problems doing 60fps with 6x fsaa and it should be for free .

The xenos has no problem doing fsaa for a small hit , the problem is these engines being shown running currently are either a) ports from other systems b ) ports from the pc or c ) half assed rushed games for launch .

http://www.beyond3d.com/articles/xenos/ you should read up , not just this article but everything on this site and as much as you can on 3d graphics .

[Bobbler]

I'll go with JVD on some points -- for a vast majority of users of the console (its target market at least) SD resolution is plenty. Especially when you add 4x+ AA on top of it (shouldn't look too horrible in HD res then, I wouldn't imagine) -- which any GPU now days can do without any sort of performance hit, so I'd be very surprised if Rev doesn't do some sort of AA on its games (if it is infact 480i/p only).

If they target 480p they should be able to pack quite a bit of power (relative to the resolution) in that tiny box -- for SDTV users I imagine the quality of graphics PS3/Xbox360/Rev will all look pretty much indistinguishable.

[Cornman]

BS. This is big BS. Well we do alot of things with two hands. The controller looks cool, but he can keep the BS out of his mouth.

Is he talking about the hardcore gamers or the non-gamers?

I think you should put down the axe and look at the statement with a open mind.

[Cornman]

They talk about the controller . He says the main problem is the controller needs to be used with both hands and it scares them talking about non-gamers being intimidated by all the buttons not the hardcore gamers because the controller is designed for hardcore games not non-gamers . Using one hand like a remote makes htem feel more confterable to the average joe who owns a tv set. He says the core controller has enough to play games and the knunchucks will bring new ways to play fps . He talks about skins where u put the controller into a skin and it becomes like a gamecube controller ( i think ign has a mock up) He also says if you compare specs it wont live up to the x360 and ps3 specs kind of like how GC's in game specs didn't live up the the PS2 fruadulant theoretical 120 million polygons specs. They were just saying that the same thing might happen not that they were any weaker than thier competition.also he was talking in the context of HD(he dodges his question basically) thats why he said on a normal TV set but the final images on tvs will. They talk about price and if its possible for 200$ he never states a price . He says its to early to taklk about price but he says the price has to be low whats thier definition of low? to get to the non gamers they want .

Then they talk about mario for the rev. He says he is pushing on mimoyto (sp?) to make it a launch title and he hopes it makes it .

The guys at g4 (morgan , adam and the other guy) talked about how all the devs were saying how cool it was and they can't wait to make games around it .But nintendo is t3H D0oMz0rS!!!111 right?

So it seems like nintendo may get alot of development and this controller may be like the touch pad on the ds . The more i hear the more i want the controller


yeah Nintendo has found a way to beat Sony but in a indirect way.

Sony leads the 18-25 male crowd.why? because thats they crowd they cater too.

Microsoft is popular with the western 18-25 male crowd.

Nintendo is popular with the 16-25+ male crowd.(most of nintendo's fanbase is the same fan as the SNES and NES era fans that have not retired or gone to competitors)

How do you fix this problem?

cater to the 5-95 crowd both male and female both hardcore and casual(softcore gamers) both non-gamer and borderline both retired and veteran(old school) gamers.

make the platform the cheapest(easiest) to make software on. Thus opening up new low budget developers to make games(and not locking them out).

They are not going to lose billions on trying to steal away Sony's fan base when they can just sell games to the untouched demographics.


Thus they would have a lot more marketshare than Sony and microsoft. But executed in a indirect method.Smart.

[Cornman]

His name is Shigeru Miyamoto.
I believe the controller is called "nunchuk-style".

The fact that the Revolution is not HD capable allows it to be slower and yet provide similar image quality, on standard TV set. (Which are very common)
I am expecting a launch price close to 200€.


Did they not put HD in because it can't handle it or did not put it in to make the hardware cheaper and lower developement cost?

[scificube]

This is my view on HDTV support. It may be true today HDTV sets are not especially common place but projections show this will not be the case in the very near future including over the lifespan of these consoles.

There is also a great disparity with between the adoption rate of HDTV's between gamers and non-gamers...and when gamers are polled getting an HDTV seems to be a common place priority.

True Nintendo is going for non-gamers but what happens when they become gamers...as they should for playing a game system? Are the retailers not going to expose them to the PS3 or X360 when they come in to buy Rev games? None of them will go for an HDTV? What affect will BR/HD-DVD players have on HDTVs being bought to accurately display HD content? What happens when the next round of HD technologies come about making HDTV's a good deal more affordable if not next year then the year after that?

[mckmas8808]

It's funny how some people just don't want to agree that next-gen HDTV's will be used by many many more people. How many people had broadband in 2000 compared to 2005? Look at this with an open mind.


Is he talking about the hardcore gamers or the non-gamers?

I think you should put down the axe and look at the statement with a open mind.


It is BS. Consoles have basically have had controllers that demanded two hands for about 20 years. And what will make a non-gamer play a console game? I personally don't think that it's because they can now use one hand. Some people just don't like playing videogames.

And cornman (I finally know who you are) Sony sells videogames to more people than just 18-25 year olds. Hell their target market is wider than that. I think the PSP is being bought mostly by people over the age of 30. Now that should be telling you something.

[Shifty Geezer]

Broadband was something like £40 a month in 2000 and only available to 50% of the population. Now its as cheap as dialup was, £15-20 and available pretty much to everyone. If you were paying £17 a month for dialup you'd be kinda crazy not to spend £17 for broadband, It's a shift of expense but people waited until the prices came down.

For HDTV, even if sets are available for £500 in 3 years time, it's not like people are already spending £500 a year of SDTV sets and may as well switch. Where they were paying a flat rate for dialup internet and a switch cost no more than that, watching SDTV costs nothing, whereas switching to HDTV costs a substantial lump sum. And there's no content for it in Europe for example; even in 5 years there'll only be satellite and movies.

The benefits and costs of dialup vs. broadband are very different to the benefits and costs of SDTV vs HDTV. I don't think anyone can say with any certainty what HDTV adoption will be like. Obviously it'll be bigger in the US where there's already content, but more than 50% of the gaming population on HDTV in 5 years would surprise me. SDTV will probably remain the most prominant display of the next generation unless there's a substantial change in HDTV costs (where are those carbon nanotubes?!)

[mckmas8808]

The benefits and costs of dialup vs. broadband are very different to the benefits and costs of SDTV vs HDTV. I don't think anyone can say with any certainty what HDTV adoption will be like. Obviously it'll be bigger in the US where there's already content, but more than 50% of the gaming population on HDTV in 5 years would surprise me. SDTV will probably remain the most prominant display of the next generation unless there's a substantial change in HDTV costs (where are those carbon nanotubes?!)

Cool thanks for the history of London broadband. I don't think HDTV will be adopted as quickly as boardband, but I think some people here paint a horrible picture HD for non reason at all.

Something else to think about:

How many people between the Gamecube, PS2, and Xbox actually played videogames online? Yet people still viewed no online for the GC a negative when compared to Xbox and PS2.

[Powderkeg]

How many people between the Gamecube, PS2, and Xbox actually played videogames online? Yet people still viewed no online for the GC a negative when compared to Xbox and PS2.


4-5 million. About the same number as bought the Zelda game on the GCN, which would make them about equally important.

[Powderkeg]

It's funny how some people just don't want to agree that next-gen HDTV's will be used by many many more people. How many people had broadband in 2000 compared to 2005? Look at this with an open mind.

OK, most people I know got broadband because it was cheaper than paying for a seperate phone line and a dialup ISP.

Somehow, I don't think upgrading to HDTV will be cheaper than staying with their current television.

[scificube]

Or you should learn what for free means in the gpu world .

at 640x480 my x800xt pe takes no hit running farcry with 6x fsaa enabled , it runs at a steady 120fps which is my refresh rate . I suspect i'm cpu bound .

Thus a x800xl should have no problems doing 60fps with 6x fsaa and it should be for free .

The xenos has no problem doing fsaa for a small hit , the problem is these engines being shown running currently are either a) ports from other systems b ) ports from the pc or c ) half assed rushed games for launch .

http://www.beyond3d.com/articles/xenos/ you should read up , not just this article but everything on this site and as much as you can on 3d graphics .

Something about this post just sticks out to me. I wasn't going to say anything but...

Is that 6xMSAA + HDR + DOF + Motion Blur + parallax occlusion mapping + non trivial usage of SM2.0+SM3.0 shaders + good AF? (i mean more than just a few used, not that the affect was not good at the time on the water etc.) I see 6xMSAA being costly on top of all of this but I could be wrong. I also know that 640x480 with the equivalent affects does not look as good as 720p because I've played FarCry through ATI's DVI to component dongle on my HDTV (to scared to try DVI to DVI). Even with greater AA the image did not look as good. The image just didn't look as crisp even when I turned the AA down at 720p to get a performance boost. Textures just didn't look as clean but I guess that could be fixed if one made the art assets better to fit the rez they would be displayed at. Oh...I have an X800 XT PE as well and I played FarCry on my Wega (stop laughing...it was cheap) so that I could use the bigger screen and my surround system in the room.

I don't doubt the same effects could pulled off but I do know from experience that they will not look as good and in some cases not near as good in SD as they do in HD. I also think there will be a good amount of expense paid just to clean up SD images so that they do at least look comparable when they can. In short I can't go with what Nintendo is saying unless my eyes are lying to me and what I'm thinking is in fact wrong.

[mckmas8808]

OK, most people I know got broadband because it was cheaper than paying for a seperate phone line and a dialup ISP.

Somehow, I don't think upgrading to HDTV will be cheaper than staying with their current television.


Of course HDTV numbers aren't going to equal broadband numbers. That wasn't my point. My point was that when prices fall and content is there the HDTV numbers will of course rise.

Actually more content will increase demand, which in turn should decrease the prices of HDTV sets. Simple supply and demand.


In short I can't go with what Nintendo is saying unless my eyes are lying to me and what I'm thinking is in fact wrong.

No you're right Nintendo are the ones actually lying to you. Of course HD matters, so no need to get the eyes checked.:razz:

[scificube]

You're silly. Everybody lies, not just Nintendo. I still check my eyes because well...sometimes you see what you wanna see :)

[Powderkeg]

Of course HDTV numbers aren't going to equal broadband numbers. That wasn't my point. My point was that when prices fall and content is there the HDTV numbers will of course rise.

Actually more content will increase demand, which in turn should decrease the prices of HDTV sets. Simple supply and demand.

Yes, it will rise. If 1 more HDTV sells next year than sells this, that's a rise.

But you made a direct comparison with the adoption rate of broadband, and that's just a horribly flawed comparison.

[mckmas8808]

Yes, it will rise. If 1 more HDTV sells next year than sells this, that's a rise.

But you made a direct comparison with the adoption rate of broadband, and that's just a horribly flawed comparison.

Yeah your right, I just wanted to lay the ground work to made point. And broadband was the first thing that I could think about. Point being with better prices and content people will buy. How much depends on those two factors. How much does price lower and how much and at what quality content am I getting extra than before.