MS outsourcing game development

[bbot]

90 out of the 250 cars in Forza Motorsprt were done by a company in India. Unbelieveable.

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=26420

[Lysander]

Yeah, I know; no offence but I do not like the forza graphics (except that japanese hill), and cars have no contact-feel with road.

[scooby_dooby]

lol, no contact feeling with the road? You'd think that would be something that would show up in reviews for a driving simulator....shockingly not one serious game publication agrees with you. Strange...

Personally, as an avid racer and driver, it's the most realistic driving game I've played in my life, especially in relation to how each car handles, each car has it's own personality on the track, exactly like real life, anyways..I could go on, but sufficed to say it beat every game out there in the reviews, including GT4, so personal opinions aside, it's an amzing game.

Back on topic, if it allows them to speed up development time, and save money I'm all for it, really a win-win situation.

[Shifty Geezer]

I could go on, but sufficed to say it beat every game out there in the reviews, including GT4But not GT3 :razz:

[Inane_Dork]

90 out of the 250 cars in Forza Motorsprt were done by a company in India. Unbelieveable.I don't see why.

[Lysander]

well I play only pgr2, so no arguing about GT scoob; but I stand with what I said, sim or not, I do not like forza graphics and feel of the cars; oh and ai opponents (sometimes) drive weird, contra all physics, no car can do corners like that

[hey69]

why is it unbelievable?

arent they humans also?
alot of development is outsourced and made by asian companies (not talking about japan)

[Bobbler]

Sounds like a good idea to me... it isn't as if it harmed Forza in any way.

[LunchBox]

Yeah, I know; no offence but I do not like the forza graphics (except that japanese hill), and cars have no contact-feel with road.

I actually agree with you on that note :)

[czekon]

Yeah, I know; no offence but I do not like the forza graphics (except that japanese hill), and cars have no contact-feel with road.

:lol: i think u haven't played this game thats all

[Phil]

Personally, as an avid racer and driver, it's the most realistic driving game I've played in my life, especially in relation to how each car handles, each car has it's own personality on the track, exactly like real life, anyways..I could go on, but sufficed to say it beat every game out there in the reviews, including GT4, so personal opinions aside, it's an amzing game.

You really haven't played much then... and you dare make comparasment with you playing Forza with..... a controller? Yep, certainly the most realistic driving game I've played in my life as well..... (not). :wink:

[Acert93]

why is it unbelievable?

arent they humans also?
alot of development is outsourced and made by asian companies (not talking about japan)

And based on some recent press notes expect MORE games to outsource certain aspects of development, especially art. I see nothing wrong with that--it is giving more people work. The industry is growing, as are costs.

You really haven't played much then... and you dare make comparasment with you playing Forza with..... a controller? Yep, certainly the most realistic driving game I've played in my life as well..... (not).

Comparing a controller with a wheel or other non-standard/low selling inpu devices is about as fair as comparing a wheel to this (http://www.force-dynamics.com/images.shtml). Very similar ratios of experience and install base.

"Realism" comparisons should always be tempered with realistic expectations about a typical experience. Basically controller vs. controller; wheel vs wheel, force feedback chair vs. force feedback chair... unless of course the Nintendo Rev2 ships with a force feedback chair in their base unit for $249.94 :razz:

Most realistic with a controller, most realistic with a wheel, etc. Different categories, different costs and market penetrations.

Btw, I am finding rFactor a really fun driving sim on the PC.

[Phil]

Comparing a controller with a wheel or other non-standard/low selling inpu devices is about as fair as comparing a wheel to this. Very similar ratios of experience and install base.

I know - yet, the word realism and a game that only simulates gameplay with a controller hardly fall correctly into the same sentence IMO, especially when the author (Scooby) attempts a comparasion ("but sufficed to say it beat every game out there in the reviews, including GT4"), which

1.) isn't true
2.) is, as I read it, a sentance following up on his first one "Personally, as an avid racer and driver, it's the most realistic driving game I've played in my life", so I take it, he's refering to "realism" aspects when he sais Forza beat GT4 in reviews

(including that he points out how each car has different characteristics, so obviously he is refering to the cars, which this topic is about anyway)

I have played both games - and it's quite laughable to even compare one game that lacks all the necessary equipment to make it a realistic one (a dedicated wheel with force feedback) and the game he compares it too, goes through all lengths to bring that simulation aspect through realistic force feedback behaviour to the player. One aspect in which Forza fails is the simulation of the cars and their weight to the surface of the road and the tracks. Even by just looking at IGN's movie section, it's quite obvious Forza doesn't stimulate the bumps and their impact on the car to the extend GT4 is doing it in.

"Most realistic driving game I've played in my life" - Suuure. If it's the only one I had ever played, maybe then. And that's not even considering the racers (i.e. GTR) that are out on PC.

[ecliptic]

So Phil, how many cars have you raced in your life?

[Phil]

Quite a few, and that includes cars that are in both GT4 and Forza on one of the race-tracks that's also featured in both games. :wink:

BTW Acert93: Haven't checked rFactor yet... is it good? I guess since I converted to Linux, I'm a bit behind what's actually going on in the PC space.... :???:

[Acert93]

Note I did not jump into the Forza/GT thing. ;) I am not an expert, nor do I own either console. Have played them a **little** (like a race or two at stores), both are fun, both are similar and different. If I was buying one, based on reviews, it would be Forza... and only because of online play. Me = online gamer. Me = PC gamer (for the most part... love my Mario games!). So that says absolutely NOTHING about the game engines themselves, only my fanatical obsession with playing other people online (hate AI, especially dumb AI which imo almost ALL SP games have). But I don't have an Xbox or PS2 of my own, I only use friends now and then. (I did buy a PS1 specifically for GT/GT2 though... drool... wasted far too many hours on GT2!) So my opinion on that issue is not really relevant unless I was talking to someone who wanted to play online.

BTW Acert93: Haven't checked rFactor yet... is it good? I guess since I converted to Linux, I'm a bit behind what's actually going on in the PC space....

My bias first:
-Online gamer
-I dislike car games with nitros and such (less Twisted Metal or Mario Kart genres)
-I look more for "balance" and clean control over "accuracy" ... meaning I could find a game a LOT of fun if the tracks and cars really had a great balance of control and difficulty... I would not find a drag racer on a twisty track fun if I could not keep control--even if it was realistic. So I guess I rely on the developer to put realistic cars in realistic situations. I like that. I liked that about GT and could appreciate going 200MPH around a corner was stupid... but don't give me a drag car and expect me to have fun on curves. I say this because some of the old Nascar games were like that... they were more of a CHORE to play than fun for me.
-I have only played the demo

My thoughts: Really fun. I started off at "beginner" where it does a lot of your breaking for you. I have moved the level down a couple times after getting familiar with the track and it really seems to control REALLY well.

The demo car is not really fast, about max 120MPH on the one straight away, but the car seems to have a good "feel" on the track. You feel like you have some real traction. In that regards it reminded me of play GT3.

The car seems "tuned" to turn well on the course, but if you go slow you have a very limited turning radius. Whether this is my gamepad (PS2 DS2 Pelican) or if these cars in real life are tuned NOT to oversteer I don't know. This is only an issue when you fly off the course and need to make a sharp turn at low speeds to turn around.opps!

The game is definately on the sim side. The driving model seems "good" (and a LOT of customizations to tweak it to fit your style... but this is NOT a Rush or NFS game, it *is* a racing game!). It also has a LOT of customizations to your actual car. You can change your fuel loads, the areodynamics, etc...

The game only has 5 tracks, but it is REALLY customizable. It is designed with the community in mind.

Also, as the company who made it is the former company making the EA F1 games they are pretty skilled. Since Sony has the F1 license they kind of are on their own. But the game has both the touring type cars AND F1 style race cars. Have not tried the F1 cars, but I am sure they are good.

Game looks good. Not PGR3 good, but maybe a step under the new NFS2 PC game. DX9 game with a good balance. e.g. You don't get these absolutely drop dead gorgeous cars and ugly tracks. They all seem to "fit". The NFS2 PC game last year looked really good, so it is not quite that level--but I actually like the STYLE better. Very GT IMO.

From what I have read the netcode is drop dead gorgeous [smile] I have not used it yet because I cannot find anyone online with the demo [frown] But it seems the community who plays the real game is REALLY active and has leagues! The AI is only ok. It can beat me if I put it up at 100% and then increase the aggresiveness. Part of that is the gamepad because the game does not seem to measure all the angles of percision (e.g. it is hard to get going exactly straight... close, but not exact). The other part is I am new to the game and make dumb mistakes on the track... because I try to go too fast through a corner[oops]

The game has a ton of options for races. You can do standing start, rolling start, standing formation, etc... There are practice laps, qualifiers, warm ups, and races before every race event. You can skip those if you want, of course, but it has them there.

You have a lot of control over the settings too. How fast time flies, how fast fuel consumption is, how many laps, race based on time or laps or race default, adjust the damage model up or down, etc...

It really is a serious racing game. Kind of confusing at first BUT I am loving it. First PC racer I have played that 1. reminds me of GT2 and 2. has a ton of options and 3. looks good.

If you are a GT fan who wants to play people online I would give the demo a spin. I am sure there are short comings, but I cannot seem to find anything comparable on the PC.

Overall it has a steep learning curve BUT also gives you a parachute. I started off with a TON of help, and have slowly made it more realistic. If the Nascar games of old had this maybe I would have enjoyed them more.

I give it a thumbs up. But try the demo first. Not for everyone, but anyone mildly interested in racers would enjoy.

I am not sure I will buy though. It IS a MP centric game. I worry that other racers online would shun me. Why? Because I don't want to do a 200 lap race (or even 50!) with full realism, etc... I don't have the time, I don't have a wheel, and I don't want to be in last place for 3 hours!! I guess races in the 20-30 lap range with 1 pit stop with fairly realistic settings--but some leway for us without nice force feedback wheels--would be nice. But I don't know if they want scrubs like me playing their sim [smile]

Ps- Runs well on my PC. 6800GT, 1GB DDR400, 2.85GHz P4 w/ 600MHz FSB.

[Ruined]

90 out of the 250 cars in Forza Motorsprt were done by a company in India. Unbelieveable.

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=26420

Considering Forza beat GT4 across the board in review scores (many sites even stating in the review itself that it tops GT4), I guess those guys in India are pretty talented eh? :)

[_phil_]

Considering Forza beat GT4 across the board in review scores (many sites even stating in the review itself that it tops GT4), I guess those guys in India are pretty talented eh? :)

you mean that forza got better reviews because of its car modeling ?

[Acert93]

Does it matter? Some people like GT4 more; Some people liked Forza more; Some people liked them about the same; A lot of people did not buy either (relatively compared to install base).

They are both good games, both critical successes, and while they have a lot of overlap they are also VERY different in many ways. They have different features and have things that appeal to different markets.

MS is lucky to have Forza, Sony is lucky to have GT, and if you like one more than the other buy the console it is on :)

Realy, it all comes down to what is important to you. Phil likes the high refresh rate of the physics on GT and how it has more road samples and a "grittier" feel while someone else may like how his car shows damage.

There is no right or wrong answer in regards to taste and preference.

[Phil]

When we actually discussed Forza vs GT4, we concluded that it was clear Forza received great reviews relative to the games out on Xbox, while GT4 was primarely compared with GT3, which is why review scores weren't overwhelming. GT4's main flaw was the online mode, AI and that reviews were expecting more content. What reviews didn't really factor in though was the immense upgrade in physics and detail in the tracks. Not that big of a factor for most people, but more than enough for those that wanted an accurate life-like experience.

Just because Forza received better reviews doesn't mean it was the more accurate simulation.


EDIT

There is no right or wrong answer in regards to taste and preference.

QFT. :smile:

[Acert93]

update on rFactor: You can change the stearing... it is set at 20 degrees, but you can change it. Really deep game and fun :)

[scooby_dooby]

I know - yet, the word realism and a game that only simulates gameplay with a controller hardly fall correctly into the same sentence IMO, especially when the author (Scooby) attempts a comparasion ("but sufficed to say it beat every game out there in the reviews, including GT4"), which

1.) isn't true
2.) is, as I read it, a sentance following up on his first one "Personally, as an avid racer and driver, it's the most realistic driving game I've played in my life", so I take it, he's refering to "realism" aspects when he sais Forza beat GT4 in reviews

(including that he points out how each car has different characteristics, so obviously he is refering to the cars, which this topic is about anyway)

I have played both games - and it's quite laughable to even compare one game that lacks all the necessary equipment to make it a realistic one (a dedicated wheel with force feedback) and the game he compares it too, goes through all lengths to bring that simulation aspect through realistic force feedback behaviour to the player. One aspect in which Forza fails is the simulation of the cars and their weight to the surface of the road and the tracks. Even by just looking at IGN's movie section, it's quite obvious Forza doesn't stimulate the bumps and their impact on the car to the extend GT4 is doing it in.

"Most realistic driving game I've played in my life" - Suuure. If it's the only one I had ever played, maybe then. And that's not even considering the racers (i.e. GTR) that are out on PC.

So now the realism of a driving game is based on the PERIPHERALS that come with that game? Tell me you're jokin!

That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. The game stands on it's own, and comnparing CONTROLLER to CONTROLLER it's the most realistic gaame I've ever played.

Why do you think your opinion is so much more important, or valid than mine?

If you want to talk driving mechanics, Forza actually gives you the feel that all 4 tires are touching the road, GT4 has a pivot system where your car feels like it's balanced in the center of the vehicle. In addition, the cars in GT has completely unrealistic amount of understeer, and they simple sustitute difficulty for REALISM.

I prefer Forza, I think it's muich more realistic, and the lack of PERIPHERALS as an argument against the GAME is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. I know you're all proud of your FF driving wheel, but don't assume taht makes you some sort of authority on how games should be judged, and which is more realistic.

I pointed to reviews to show that I'm not the minority who thinks FOrza is better (more realistic, better gfx, better AI etc etc) YOU are the minority who cling to a 8 year old driving engine, with no damage models, and AI that drives on a freakin reail...oh right..but it was a steering wheel so therefore that makes the game itself more realistic.....riiiiight

[scooby_dooby]

Just because Forza received better reviews doesn't mean it was the more accurate simulation.


So the fact one has a FF and the other doesn't means one's a more accurate Sim?

But independant reviews judging it AS A SIM..they don't count?

Give me a break, it's widely accepted as the game that finally dethroned GT4, you don't agree? Fine, no need to ruin a perfectly good thread trying to PUSH your opinion on others.

[Phil]

So now the realism of a driving game is based on the PERIPHERALS that come with that game?

Of course not, I just found it very amusing that you would rate a game that doesn't go through all the length of aiming for a realistic experience over one that quite obviously does. In fact, I actually find it amusing to even rate a game as realistic based on how it played with a controller when there are so many examples in which games have actively supported the use of wheels to improve the experience and bring it to new levels. That you haven't been confronted with these yet actually show that you are rather one sided in your entire argument and opinion.

If you want to talk driving mechanics, Forza actually gives you the feel that all 4 tires are touching the road, GT4 has a pivot system where your car feels like it's balanced in the center of the vehicle. In addition, the cars in GT has completely unrealistic amount of understeer, and they simple sustitute difficulty for REALISM.

Before you go out and claim things, I really suggest you play the game with a wheel to get the full experience.

Not sure where you've digged out that claim about unrealistic understeer either.... maybe because you tried out most of the front-wheel drives? I'm looking back to weeks of playing and I can't say it makes the impression cars to understeer - in fact, the cars that I drive in real-life and have compared in GT4 seem to get the distinct characeristics pretty head on - and that includes under- / oversteer characteristics as well as weight-shift in cornering as well as engine characteristics. Then again, I have been playing the game with the wheel - and it could be that the understeer is quite apparent with the controller.

I pointed to reviews to show that I'm not the minority who thinks FOrza is better (more realistic, better gfx, better AI etc etc) YOU are the minority who cling to a 8 year old driving engine, with no damage models, and AI that drives on a freakin reail...oh right..but it was a steering wheel so therefore that makes the game itself more realistic.....riiiiight

Must be your memory, because you haven't pointed to any reviews. Not as if I'm interested in seeing them again though, I actually argued this point when they appeared already and know what's in them - a few actually compare it with GT4 and most of them simply give it a high rating because it's a great game on Xbox and rightfully for the AI and the damage system (which btw wasn't incorporated that well if you're that much of a realism nut as I am).

As I also said, GT4 received poor reviews for the most part because of AI issues and the missing Online mode. Apart from that, it's definately the much better game than GT3 ever was, yet it still had worse reviews. Doesn't mean however that it's as simple as comparing Forza review score X with GT4 review score Y.

As I said, Forza has some big flaws that go hand in hand with a game aiming to give the player a realistic experience. If you haven't played GT4 with a wheel, you really can't judge it's realism aspect because the game was aimed for that purpose.

But hey, if you want to go through it again, we can compare the simulation aspects again for you as a reminder. Maybe you can then stick that somewhere as a reminder before you go out pointing out imaginable things like "Forza dethroned GT4 etc". :wink:

[scooby_dooby]

Of course not, I just found it very amusing that you would rate a game that doesn't go through all the length of aiming for a realistic experience over one that quite obviously does. In fact, I actually find it amusing to even rate a game as realistic based on how it played with a controller when there are so many examples in which games have actively supported the use of wheels to improve the experience and bring it to new levels. That you haven't been confronted with these yet actually show that you are rather one sided in your entire argument and opinion.

I find it very amusing that you don't understand that the XBOX can not support Force Feedback steering wheels.

Its a hardware issue! Do you even know that? If it was possible for Forza to have a good FF it would, but it's not.

It's weak that you must fall back on a hardware argument to defend a software game. The majority of people play with a controller, and that's how games should be judged. If you are going to judge on peripherals, any XBOX game would lose because they don't support force feedback, so it's an inherently unfair comparison. We're comparing GAMES not hardware features.

I don't feel like rehashing the Forza argument again, been there, dont that! But I have played GT on PS2 for well over 50 hours, have you actually given the same chance to Froza to impress you?

You;re comparing GT4 with a FF wheel, to Forza which doesn't have a FF wheel available. Do you own Forza? Can you honestly say you've gievn it a fair shake? Have you played it for a couple of weeks to truly appreciate the game?

I'm comparing GT4 which I played for over 50 hours, (I did own a PS2 once upon a time! surprise!) to Forza which I've played for over 30 hours, comparing both with a controller and I like Forza much much better. That's a fair comparison because I've played both games equally with the same hardware, can you say the same?

[Phil]

I find it very amusing that you don't understand that the XBOX can not support Force Feedback steering wheels.

Its a hardware issue! Do you even know that? If it was possible for Forza to have a good FF it would, but it's not.

Errr, what? A hardware issue? You must be kidding. You mean to tell me a simple thing like a wheel that receives signals on how to control the servos is not possible on Xbox? What's exactly not possible?

As for the rest:

Comparing Forza and GT4 is not as easy as score x vs score y - both do things well and both have their flaws. I have my personal preference set in how the cars handle on the track - and given my personal preference, I prefer the double framerate, the more realistic behaviour of the cars on the tracks and the ability of using a dedicated wheel in GT4, over the graphics, damage and better AI in Forza.

I respect your opinion in that you prefer one over the other and have your personal preference in the points it does better - what I don't respect is you posting around your opinion as if they are facts and making claims that aren't true. You've done that in the MGS thread and you're doing it here.

:idea: Maybe if you changed your additude, less people would accuse you of trolling.

[hadareud]

Errr, what? A hardware issue? You must be kidding. You mean to tell me a simple thing like a wheel that receives signals on how to control the servos is not possible on Xbox? What's exactly not possible?


scooby's right. Xbox does not support FF. It's a hardware issue

[Bobbler]

scooby's right. Xbox does not support FF. It's a hardware issue


How can it not? The plugs on Xbox are just USB with a different adapter. Silly MS.

[hadareud]

How can it not? The plugs on Xbox are just USB with a different adapter. Silly MS.

I agree. MS seems to not have thought about FF when they designed the original Xbox. Definetely a big mistake.

[Shifty Geezer]

As Bobbler says, it's USB. Unless they left out the 5v power line so there's no power, but in something like a wheel I'm sure you'd be using a seperate PSU, no? And they have Rumble, so they have force feedback functions and a power line. Makes no sense. :???:

Regards review scores they don't show which game is better. GT3 score > Forza. Ergo GT3 is a better game, right? Scores are comparative (as Phil points out) and GT4 scored relatively low because it didn't add much on to GT3. The GT franchise hasn't really progressed at all in terms of the game as a whole experience, and the fourth incarnation (not counting GT3 Concept and GT4 Prelude) is getting tiresome. As a reviewer, knowing a lot of people considering GT4 would likely already own GT3, one's reviews are likely to reflect the opinion of 'don't bother, there's not much here'. If you read the reviews for GT4 you'd have heard this actually being expressed (at least the reviews I read mentioned this). If GT3 hadn't have existed and GT4 wasn't being compared to it's elder sibling, it'd have received higher review ratings. Anyone basing their judgement on a few numbers without actually reading the full reviews isn't getting a full picture of the reviewer's opinion.

Um, that's this thread severly derailed. Only the OT didn't seem to have much scope for discussion anyway, other than 'OMG Indian's Making Graphics :shock:' and a brief debate on whether or not artistic talent in CGs should be tolerated in non-1st-world countries :p

[ecliptic]

Quite a few, and that includes cars that are in both GT4 and Forza on one of the race-tracks that's also featured in both games. :wink:

BTW Acert93: Haven't checked rFactor yet... is it good? I guess since I converted to Linux, I'm a bit behind what's actually going on in the PC space.... :???:

I am talking about real cars in real life.

[randycat99]

...GT4 has a pivot system where your car feels like it's balanced in the center of the vehicle. In addition, the cars in GT has completely unrealistic amount of understeer, and they simple sustitute difficulty for REALISM.

This comment right here utterly betrays that he has zero grasp at what he is talking about. I believe the game he really played was Ridge Racer. To confuse GT-anything with Ridge Racer-pivoting-on-an-axis-at-the-center-of-the-vehicle style of handling is effing criminal. No real driving game conniseur could hope to make such an assertion with a straight face, period.