What was Microsoft saying about "choice" again? [Archive]

_leech_

26-Aug-2005, 03:31

First there's the whole issue with USB flash drives, now this (http://www.hexus.net/content/reviews/review.php?dXJsX3Jldmlld19JRD0xNTIw):

If you wish to play a DVD via the Media Centre you can not stream this - it is only avaliable over the LAN, you can only do this with a local disk.

One other downfall is that the Media Centre Extender can not play anything bar WMV9 encoded video, even if you do install the DIVX codecs on your main Media Centre system.

BlueTsunami

26-Aug-2005, 03:42

Media Centre Extender can not play anything bar WMV9 encoded video, even if you do install the DIVX codecs on your main Media Centre system.

wtf?....now that just sucks!!!! Everyday that goes by, the streaming capabilites seem to get more and more restrictive! I hope that they allow another form of encoded video in the future (through a firmware update..if thats even possible).

Mefisutoferesu

26-Aug-2005, 03:43

Wait, let me get this straight. Regardless of the fact I have Media Center PC hooked up I still can't play anything beyond WMVs?? Tell me this is a joke. More over I need a HDD to stream movies from the MCPC?? Why is MS cripling everything involving multimedia??

EDIT:: You don't suppose MS did this in some strange way to push the WMV format, do you? A lot of the moves that we're seeing, like the xbox360 being a media-extender than self contained, have been because MS was trying to protect other assets of boost them.

Carl B

26-Aug-2005, 03:49

I think that they probably see the 360 as having such broad appeal that they can use it to:

A) Turn a wider cross-section of the populace onto Media Center PCs

and

B) Once having done so, kind of 'guide' them to more widespread adoption of their own formats; and thus wider proliferation/popularity in general in a trickle down effect

What I see though is a lot of people buying it and saying, "What? Why can't I stream this...?" But Microsoft might succeed at making WMV more prolific - who knows?

EDIT: Mefisutoferesu I think your edit beat my post, but we're thinking along the same lines.

seismologist

26-Aug-2005, 04:00

I dont get why X360 doesn't just act like another PC on the LAN?

That would allow you to stream movies from your PC's DVD

Acert93

26-Aug-2005, 04:02

EDIT:: You don't suppose MS did this in some strange way to push the WMV format, do you? A lot of the moves that we're seeing, like the xbox360 being a media-extender than self contained, have been because MS was trying to protect other assets of boost them.

Yep, and this method REALLY helped Sony in the MP3 wars, huh.

The iPod is a good scenario of how things should work... make a solid piece of hardware, a clean user interface, support the mainstream formats, market it well, get a nice form factor, and give people what they want (like a ton of space). Make money off the hardware (in this case a large HDD + Media Center addon OS for the 360) and the sale of music, game content, etc...

Instead it seems like MS is too busy directing them to other products instead of making the most out of what they have. Looks like MS is intent on keeping the 360 a gaming machine and not really expanding it too much beyond that core functionality.

scooby_dooby

26-Aug-2005, 04:09

pfff, weak...

my XBOX1 isn't going anywhere.

PLEASE, mod this puppy fast so we can port a real media player over.

it's pretty weak when I can buy a $40 DVD player that'll play everything under the sun, but a $400 console can only play WMV files. What ever happened to simply creating a compelling product?

ninzel

26-Aug-2005, 06:45

What's the benefit of being able to stream it from your PC when the system itself already plays DVD's?

26-Aug-2005, 07:04

What's the benefit of being able to stream it from your PC when the system itself already plays DVD's?

Because you might have other media (be it video or audio) on your PC network. Home movies, music, etc.

ninzel

26-Aug-2005, 07:06

Because you might have other media (be it video or audio) on your PC network. Home movies, music, etc.

Could you not just burn that media onto a CD or DVD then play it from the 360? I read the 360 reads all kinds of disks and formats.

Guden Oden

26-Aug-2005, 08:18

I don't really see what the hubbub is about not being able to play DVDs over the network, because if you can go from the DVD shelf over to your PC and stick the disc in its drive, can't you instead go from the DVD shelf over to the x360 and stick the disc in THAT drive instead?

The no other media format support seems a little weird tho, but I don't really care personally. I'm not going to play computer video files on my TV anyway as my PC monitor is quite sufficient for that.

26-Aug-2005, 08:23

Could you not just burn that media onto a CD or DVD then play it from the 360? I read the 360 reads all kinds of disks and formats.

Most definitely. But wouldn't it be several orders of magnitude easier to just browse the content on your PC (network) and double click to view it on your TV? Instead of having the burn a disc first and then insert it into the X360?

26-Aug-2005, 08:25

The no other media format support seems a little weird tho, but I don't really care personally. I'm not going to play computer video files on my TV anyway as my PC monitor is quite sufficient for that.

Do you have need/desire for the HTPC type media center? If not, then this turn of events probably doesn't affect you. :)

Guden Oden

26-Aug-2005, 08:38

Do you have need/desire for the HTPC type media center?
No, not really. I know others like the idea, I just don't need that myself as my TV is less than 2 meters away from my PC. Still, the bitching about DVDs is silly as it's very easy to simply stick the disc in the console if you want to use it as a DVD player.

It would likely be a lot more reliant way of playing DVDs too, as PCs are prone to having hiccups where they suddenly feel like cleaning up the page file or updating virus definitions or some other shit that tends to suck a lot of performance that might cause stutters in network data flow.

Shifty Geezer

26-Aug-2005, 09:49

We're seeing an intersting shift in this industry. Sony, once kings of the proprietary format, are opening themselves up to support more than just these own proprietary formats. They've added MP3 to devices they wanted only ATRAC, and different MemCard slots in PS3 instead of forcing people to use MemStick. Perhaps with Sony getting 'soft' MS see a chance to flex their own substantial proprietary muscles and win the crown of 'most aggravatingly and unneccesarily limited hardware developer'?

Bohdy

26-Aug-2005, 10:18

What ever happened to simply creating a compelling product?

They tried that once and it lost them 5 Billion dollars, so they ditched the idea in favour of the tried-and-true "milking consumers for all that they are worth" approach. :-D

BlueTsunami

26-Aug-2005, 13:24

Well...does this mean that we can't stream High Definition WMV content? if thats the case...someone needs to get kicked in the balls.

LunchBox

26-Aug-2005, 13:24

the thing that irks me about this is that...

this particular feature was being hyped so much as if it was this totally turbulant, animalistic, orgasm...

but falls way, way, short...like an ill-fated, blue-balled experience...

it's the media remote control all over again...

although i could somewhat understand where they're coming from...

those licencing fees would have been very steep...

even with deep pockets, such as microsoft...

hopefully what they lack in added feature will be emphasized with quality gaming :)

J_Saint

26-Aug-2005, 13:40

Well...does this mean that we can't stream High Definition WMV content? if thats the case...someone needs to get kicked in the balls.

From everything I've read WMV-HD will be supported with X360.

jvd

26-Aug-2005, 13:46

Most definitely. But wouldn't it be several orders of magnitude easier to just browse the content on your PC (network) and double click to view it on your TV? Instead of having the burn a disc first and then insert it into the X360?

jsut encode it into wmv files . It will still play them . It just wont play dvds through the network and I can understand that . The latancy from dvd - lan - player would be to long .

As for needing the hardrive i guess they want t o cache to the drive instead of the ram ? That way on long movies of several hundred megs there wont be a problem ?

BlueTsunami

26-Aug-2005, 13:51

jvd

26-Aug-2005, 13:57

Encoding to WMV is so troublesome though. I have a library of Media on my Files Server, that are different spectrums of the video format rainbow. Most are .avi's. I really want to have content streamed to my Sony 61" HDTV in the living room...so i'll probably have to bear with it and encode my animes to WMV's. But I was more worried about HD material, and if the HD-WMV capabilities are kept in tact, then i'll be ok with that.

It should play 720p / 1080i videos just fine . 1080p is most likely going to be downl sampled.

I'm still confused about the live messaging .

Do you have to hook your tv feed (Sat , cable , antena ) to your pc and stream it from your pc to your xbox 360 to your tv to get the live messages poping it while watching tv ?

J_Saint

26-Aug-2005, 14:00

But I was more worried about HD material, and if the HD-WMV capabilities are kept in tact, then i'll be ok with that.

An update codenamed "Emerald" for Windows MCE has been in beta testng for a few months. It will add functionality and X360 support including hi def support. At the Games Convention conference they briefly showed HD streaming off of a Media Center laptop. They showed an Oblivion trailer and a small clip of Star Wars: Episode II

Shifty Geezer

26-Aug-2005, 14:03

jsut encode it into wmv files . It will still play them . It just wont play dvds through the network and I can understand that . The latancy from dvd - lan - player would be to long.As I understand the issue isn't just lack of DVD playing, which isn't a big problem (just play them on the XB360) but that the only codec you can broadcast is WMV9. If you download anything else, DivX, QuickTime or what have you, you have to go through the rigmarole and quality-munching of recompression. Far from an ideal solution.

jvd

26-Aug-2005, 14:05

As I understand the issue isn't just lack of DVD playing, which isn't a big problem (just play them on the XB360) but that the only codec you can broadcast is WMV9. If you download anything else, DivX, QuickTime or what have you, you have to go through the rigmarole and quality-munching of recompression. Far from an ideal solution.

Sure its far from ideal. But they aren't the only ones who want to push thier own standards .

london-boy

26-Aug-2005, 14:11

Sure its far from ideal. But they aren't the only ones who want to push thier own standards .

Aren't they? At least "others" are trying to make it easy on us.

Shifty Geezer

26-Aug-2005, 14:12

Bummer, ain't it!

jvd

26-Aug-2005, 14:16

Aren't they? At least "others" are trying to make it easy on us.

Yes ?

Only one I can say thats true for is apple . Sony restricts its mp3 playback (or did they may have broaden thier failing push for thier version)

Sony hasn't announced what they offer so I will wait and see .

As for ms i'm sure there will be hacks and mods quickly after . If not i can live with wmv files . Doesn't take long to re encode and i will try and join wmv groups instead of divx groups that i join now .

Now if it does play divx and other files localy , i.e through a dvd . I will just burn them onto a disc. Will take me a min and i don't have to send large files over my network

BlueTsunami

26-Aug-2005, 14:22

As for ms i'm sure there will be hacks and mods quickly after . If not i can live with wmv files . Doesn't take long to re encode and i will try and join wmv groups instead of divx groups that i join now

Thats the bad thing. Stuff like this will encourage "hacks and mods". Of course, it will still happen anyways...but this just gives hackers and moders another reason to take apart the 360 both Hardware and Software wise.

ninzel

26-Aug-2005, 14:28

Most definitely. But wouldn't it be several orders of magnitude easier to just browse the content on your PC (network) and double click to view it on your TV? Instead of having the burn a disc first and then insert it into the X360?

Sure it would be easier, just the way people were reacting it sounded if that option were cut out completely. Now I see it's just a case of preference I'm not too concerned.

If I had content that was important enough to me that I was I upset about not being able to stream, I figure that content would also be important enough to me that I would have already burned it in order to save it in case my HDD went corrupt.

PG2G

26-Aug-2005, 15:14

So, does PSP play divx/xvid?

jvd

26-Aug-2005, 15:16

So, does PSP play divx/xvid?not sure . I just convert evertthing using that psp 9 software or whatever its called ( i haven't done it in awhile )

PeterT

26-Aug-2005, 15:27

So, does PSP play divx/xvid?
Even better, it play h.264! (Not that it's a valid comparison, as you'd transcode your movies for a portable device anyway)

PG2G

26-Aug-2005, 15:38

jvd

26-Aug-2005, 15:40

PG2G

26-Aug-2005, 15:42

They would probably need to pay to have support for a lot of the codecs.

BlueTsunami

26-Aug-2005, 15:49

jvd

26-Aug-2005, 15:59

Why is the PSP even a factor. Your probably going to have to reencode the video anywasy so it can fit the the video itself on the PSP's MC. I can take a whole DVD, RIP it and encode it with PSP9 and bring it down to 200MB (withought the extras and lowing the bitrate of the sound). Now this scenario is about a stationary media extender that seems to be crippled on the formats that it can play. If any regular passive gamer (non technical) will try to stream certain files that are not WMV....they won't know what to do.

Thats not true .

Your saying its okay for psp9 to make u rencode. Which means passive gamers have to learn how to do it . Why can't they learn how to go from dvi to wmv ? Just release a simple tool for it and it shouldn't be any more of a problem than doing it for the psp .

I agree the best route would be supporting more codecs but perhaps it costs money ?

Shifty Geezer

26-Aug-2005, 16:02

Hehe, h.264 is nice. But you know where I'm going with this :P Why is everyone okay with the limited playback of xbox360 but fine with it on PSP? The amount of support doesn't seem any different... you have your standard avi/mpeg codecs, and wmv (h.264 on psp).

As much as it sucks, it makes sense.As I understand, MCE has the capability to decode DivX + QuickTime. You can view these on MCE, but not stream them to XB360. PSP on the other hand hasn't support for different codecs, though they may be added at a later date.

If Sony provide the capacity to view DivX, QuickTime, h.264 and MVC on PS3, but only allow you to broadcast to PSP files saved in h.264 format, then it'll be a comparative situation. As it is you have a format on MCE but can't use it as is on the XB360 as an extender, despite the extender doing little more than receiving a forwarded transmission. Perhaps though this is because the codecs would need to be available on XB360 to allow QT and DivX playback as the data streams are sent compressed, in which case it's a fair limitation though rather a poor design choice IMO.

BlueTsunami

26-Aug-2005, 16:16

Thats not true .

Your saying its okay for psp9 to make u rencode. Which means passive gamers have to learn how to do it . Why can't they learn how to go from dvi to wmv ? Just release a simple tool for it and it shouldn't be any more of a problem than doing it for the psp .

I agree the best route would be supporting more codecs but perhaps it costs money ?

You do have a point there. I don't know....as what Shifty said though MCE have the ability to support varying codecs....so its more or less MS choosing to not support those codecs intead of doing so...but yeah..it could be a licensing issue.

Dave Baumann

26-Aug-2005, 16:23

Or a support issue.

Advertising you support other codecs, such as DiVX, opens you up to the support calls and costs when those 3rd party codecs don't work as expected. WMV in MS's own codec and they know it works as they expect it to - any support issues related to this are actually their issue.

26-Aug-2005, 16:34

jsut encode it into wmv files . It will still play them . It just wont play dvds through the network and I can understand that . The latancy from dvd - lan - player would be to long .

Encoding everything I have into WMVs would be a big pain in the rear. I have many different formats and I really would prefer NOT to bother encoding them.

I certainly don't care about the lack of DVDs through the network. Just the lack of streaming other media.

Can we stream mp3s or browse other data?

If I had content that was important enough to me that I was I upset about not being able to stream, I figure that content would also be important enough to me that I would have already burned it in order to save it in case my HDD went corrupt.

You definitely should always back up your data. One of the easiest ways to accomplish this is a RAID server. It's just unfortunate that in this day of connectivity (heck we have refrigerators that can surf the net!) that the x360 can't easily connect to a simple PC network and become the media center I and apparently others were hoping it would be. Personally I think hunting for a backup DVD is a pain but that's me. I'd rather just have my content at my finger tips. :)

jvd

26-Aug-2005, 16:36

Can we stream mp3s or browse other data?

We know we can stream mp3s . They stream them off an ipod . So I don't see why not . We also know u can get jepgs and others through a psp .

Or a support issue.

Advertising you support other codecs, such as DiVX, opens you up to the support calls and costs when those 3rd party codecs don't work as expected. WMV in MS's own codec and they know it works as they expect it to - any support issues related to this are actually their issue.

that can also be true

Shifty Geezer

26-Aug-2005, 16:42

Or a basic Codecs issue with the hardware. Someone would have to write a QT codec for XeCPU, and a DivX codec for XeCPU, which of course MS wouldn't be allowed to do. I guess that's the limit of sending encoded data.

Which makes one wonder about PSP's browsing. Flash is being included. What about QT support? One would be inclined to believe that PSP will keep to open formats with Sony writing the codecs. Proprietary formats will be the responsibility of the codec creators who may not care to write a codec for console hardware.

Personally I hate the mish-mash of codecs! Just stick with one system that works and be done with it, instead of needing people to install half a dozen players to watch what is basically the same thing - video.

seismologist

26-Aug-2005, 19:20

What's the benefit of being able to stream it from your PC when the system itself already plays DVD's?

It sort of crushes the hope that you could add an HD-DVD drive to your PC and stream the video through the 360.

Joe DeFuria

26-Aug-2005, 19:25

Hmmmm...I was always under the impression XBox360 would only receive a single format from MCE...and that that MCE could / would transcode on the fly (based on whatever codecs are installed on MCE) for transmission to XBox360 in the required format.

I guess I was mistaken...

Shifty Geezer

26-Aug-2005, 19:26

Unless you encode 30GBs of HD-DVD into WMV :twisted:

PG2G

26-Aug-2005, 21:13

As I understand, MCE has the capability to decode DivX + QuickTime. You can view these on MCE, but not stream them to XB360. PSP on the other hand hasn't support for different codecs, though they may be added at a later date.

I'm not gonna claim to be an expert at MCE, because I don't have it installed. But are you SURE that MCE can decode DivX and/or QuickTime out of the box? I'd assume that these are external codecs being used by Media Center, just like if you were to do the same with Media Player...

And I guess it'd make sense to have the MCE comp transcode the files to one format, but I can see how that would cause problems (especially with HD media) on most people's setups.

BlueTsunami

26-Aug-2005, 21:20

Unless you encode 30GBs of HD-DVD into WMV :twisted:

Holy crap, I wonder what the estimation time on that would be. I would probably go to sleep while it encodes...

Shifty Geezer

26-Aug-2005, 22:10

I'm not gonna claim to be an expert at MCE, because I don't have it installed. But are you SURE that MCE can decode DivX and/or QuickTime out of the box?Nope. I think I meant to say MC, not MCE, as I used MCE to mean Media Centre Edition whih probably isn't even a real acronym. I should'a used MCPC. Media PC's have no relevance to my life at all so I don't know what I'm talking about :p

Magnum PI

28-Aug-2005, 21:27

that's lame. it should be able to reencode it to the appropriate format on the fly.

it is no problem for vlc which i use it to play media file in different format and codecs on a media extender that can onlyu play mpeg3. it just works perfectly.

Dave Baumann

28-Aug-2005, 21:34

Nope. I think I meant to say MC, not MCE, as I used MCE to mean Media Centre Edition whih probably isn't even a real acronym. I should'a used MCPC. Media PC's have no relevance to my life at all so I don't know what I'm talking about :p

MCE is the correct ackronym for Media Center (Edition). Alternatively "HTPC" (home theater PC) could be used, which could encompass MCE.

Shifty Geezer

28-Aug-2005, 21:45

So I wasn't wrong :shock: Is there an official acronym for a Media Centre Extender or has MCE become confused?

scooby_dooby

28-Aug-2005, 22:54

jsut encode it into wmv files . It will still play them . It just wont play dvds through the network and I can understand that . The latancy from dvd - lan - player would be to long .

no way. my wired network to my XBOX is only running at 10mbits/s and I can stream DVD's simply by sharing my dvd-rom drive using XBMC, it only buffers around 50MB's, so it's easily possible. They're just limiting functionality, period.

Shifty, extender = WMCE ( Windows Media Centre Extender)

scooby_dooby

28-Aug-2005, 23:06

I'm not gonna claim to be an expert at MCE, because I don't have it installed. But are you SURE that MCE can decode DivX and/or QuickTime out of the box? I'd assume that these are external codecs being used by Media Center, just like if you were to do the same with Media Player...

And I guess it'd make sense to have the MCE comp transcode the files to one format, but I can see how that would cause problems (especially with HD media) on most people's setups.

MCE doesn't decode anything out of the box. Just basic windows formats.

The official word used to be that WMCE would use any codecs the user had installed on the PC, and for the most part if it played on the PC it should play on the x360. Now apparantly, that's been scaled back.

I think the idea of recoding is a joke IMO, The point of a Media Centre in your living room is added convenience, if you have the encode every video it's pretty pointless.

Magnum PI

29-Aug-2005, 15:25

there is no technical reason to this limitation, if opensource guys can do it why wouldn't microsoft, with the resources they have, be able to renconde

it is a commercial choice.

microsoft will do anything it can to promote its products and its formats.