More high res xbox shots

[jvd]

http://media.xbox360.ign.com/articles/644/644755/imgs_1.html

Some good shots of all the stuff:

http://xbox360media.ign.com/xbox360/image/article/644/644755/new-high-res-xbox-360-images-20050824103907367.jpg

[DemoCoder]

Why is there a VGA connector shown, but no DVI or HDMI?

[Acert93]

Why is there a VGA connector shown, but no DVI or HDMI?

Because it there is currently no Digital support? i.e. It can support an analog VGA but none of the digital formats because the scaler chip takes the digital image from the memory and outputs it in analog.

Now WHY they did not bother to make the chip output a digital signal... well, who knows. I know I do not have the answer for that :(

Edit: Ps- Outside of game selection the the VGA cable and Live are big features for me right now. I don't own a TV, let alone HDTV, and my best friend lives 2,000 miles away wants to game online with me. Sounds stupid, but online service/games and a simple VGA out support from Day-1 on 100% of games is going to be important to me.

Kind of the swing features... both platforms have good games... so it is about the online experience and whoever can work in 720p on my 8ms LCDs!

[jvd]

as long as your monitor is capable of the res there shouldn't be a reason why it wont work on all games

[Acert93]

as long as your monitor is capable of the res there shouldn't be a reason why it wont work on all games

This is what I am worried about.

I have a monitor, lets say a 21" 1600x1200 CRT. That is a 4:3 aspect.

I hook up an Xbox 360... what rez will it out put? What aspect?

Ideally, for ME, I would want 720p 16:9.

Ditto my 1280x1024 LCD. It has analog inputs... but to look good it would have to auto-letterbox and be 720p (1280x720).

I am curious to how they plan to impliment all of this. Getting 720p and letterbox is important to me... so knowing what resolutions and formats the VGA cable will support is important.

Yeah, I know it CAN do it... the question is will MS/devs make it standard for the VGA cable. I am assuming it takes a little more work to letter box it, that is why I am worried. A 720p TV is naturally 720p, so no worries. A monitor is a 4:3 aspect, so I don't want it stretched!

[DemoCoder]

Well, no digital out sucks donkey ass. I have 2 HDTVs, one a DLP RPTV and another an LCD PJ. I own some of the expensive analog cable you can buy, and the result is that there is still "snow" and "haze" that is apparent compared to DVI/HDMI. DVI/HDMI is mega-stable. Yes, if you use analog, and never compare side by side, you will unlikely know what "haze" I am talking about, but trust me, component/VGA does exhibit an instability/noisiness that is apparent when you compare them. It is very subtle.

How the FSCK can Microsoft design a next-generation "era of HD" console, and not have digital out? This, and the amount of eDRAM which can ideally fit 480p completely in the buffer, leads me to conclude that the XB360 was *NOT* designed "for the era of HD", but this was PR b*llsh*t tacked on afterwards, and not an original design requirement of the system.

PS3 will undoubtably be my primary system, with XB360 sitting off the side, since first and foremost, it will output a rock-solid digital signal to my displays, and secondly, because I will be watching BRDVDs on it. Microsoft is insane if they think I'm gonna buy WMVHDs on DVDROM or some other proprietary format and watch them through an inferior connection.

[jvd]

Democoder the only hdtvs that i own and my friends and family own have component and vga connectors .

So while dvi option would be nice its still pretty niche .

Although i really don't see why they can't by pass teh scaler chip

[Acert93]

How the FSCK can Microsoft design a next-generation "era of HD" console, and not have digital out? This, and the amount of eDRAM which can ideally fit 480p completely in the buffer, leads me to conclude that the XB360 was *NOT* designed "for the era of HD", but this was PR b*llsh*t tacked on afterwards, and not an original design requirement of the system.

The 10MB eDRAM is an indication that early on they planned to hit 480p hard... but you must wonder that they had to know that some users had widescreen and HDTVs (even the Xbox supported this).

The tiling solution is obviously in hardware, so they must have realized that 1) most people would be at 480p and since 2) tiling worked with very little negative effect at 720p it would be a fair trade off for high end users.

So it would seem that 480p was the original goal. If not, why did they not make the eDRAM size fit a 1080i image in 3 tiles? They would have needed ~10.5MB for that. It seems that, based on the Xenos article, that it needs 4 tiles for 1080i 4x MSAA (although maybe the eDRAM is 10.5MB?)

As for the output... two theoriest

1. As a software company they were not gonna place any bets on what inputs would be standard. They KNOW that component is standard and works with everything, so why bet the house on HDMI when you have no control over adoption of it? Sony obviously has a little bit more control in this area... and HDMI has really taken off in the last year and has some momentum 2 years ago... but before that?

MS seems to avoided all gambles with the hardware and kept out as much "unused" stuff as possible. WiFi? Only a % will use so you Gotta pay. HDD? Well, only a percentage of games used it, so you gotta pay. 4 controller slots? Nope, gotta buy expensive wireless controllers. Everyone got component, so if you want HDMI...

2. You gotta pay... for their Xbox 360 HD-DVD player!

Yeah, I can see it now... HD-DVD (which looks about dead at this point... might as well do BR MS!) + HDMI.

So 3 SKUs!

Ballmar and Allard have hinted in the direction of this, so I have to believe the digital out was kept out so it could be put into a more expensive SKU.

So techies who are streaming OR want the best quality video will have to get the better 360... which, as PStwo Slims show, early adopters are FREQUENTLY willing to buy a new unit when theirs gets old.

A smaller Xbox 360 with HD-DVD? Yeah, I see it in the cards... and they will make it BLACK :x

[jvd]

I'm still half a mind ot think that we may see two diffrent ps3's also . Perhaps one with alot of ports missing and the second dvi missing

[Mefisutoferesu]

Well, HD-WMVs aren't that bad... well, on LCD monitors they're not... the brightness and contrast on LCDs and such can usually overcome alot of the porblems with HD-WMV... or so I suspect, I know they're OK for PC monitors, dunno how much it changes going to HDTVs. Anyway, HD-WMVs pretty much suck else-wise, but they're not all bad.

[DemoCoder]

DVI/HDMI are the standard, period. They have won. You can't bet on everyone having component either. RCA/S-Video are the lowest common denominator.

But Microsoft could have hedged their bets by including a digital output in their multi-output port, just like DVI can include both analog and digital. It looks like true digital out is IMPOSSIBLE on the XB360 because the GPU is incapable of it. At best, I can see some kind of USB2 hack that dumps the framebuffer over USB2->DVI converter, but that's dubious. There's also no 1394 connector either. Some media center this thing is, since 99% of digicamcorders won't plug into it.

JVD, niche my ass. Every DLP, LCD, PJ, and PDP sold in the last few years has digital input. Your relatives don't own "HDTVs" they own CRT EDTVs branded as "HD Ready", like Sony XBRs, etc. These sets are incapable of full HDTV resolution (especially horizontal), so the digital inputs are moot.

[jvd]

JVD, niche my ass. Every DLP, LCD, PJ, and PDP sold in the last few years has digital input. Your relatives don't own "HDTVs" they own CRT EDTVs branded as "HD Ready", like Sony XBRs, etc. These sets are incapable of full HDTV resolution (especially horizontal), so the digital inputs are moot.

My uncle has a nice samsung (i believe it can be sony) lcd 40 inch screen that he got from best buy last year that does 720p nativly and doesn't have dvi or hdmi .

My sisters sony crt does 1080i and has vga and component no hdmi or dvi .

So your pretty much wrong .

[DemoCoder]

Well, HD-WMVs aren't that bad... well, on LCD monitors they're not... the brightness and contrast on LCDs and such can usually overcome alot of the porblems with HD-WMV... or so I suspect, I know they're OK for PC monitors, dunno how much it changes going to HDTVs. Anyway, HD-WMVs pretty much suck else-wise, but they're not all bad.

Yeah, but are you going to buy your movie collection in a proprietary format that won't play anywhere else but your XBox360 and Media Center PC? And frankly, a media format that is doomed from the start. The writing is on the wall, in the content wars, BluRay has most of the major movie studios onboard. MGM alone accounts for 4100+ movies.

I speak as an owner of WMVHD disks, namely, Terminator 2 Extreme Edition and Step Into Liquid. They make cool demos, but I am not about to build up a huge collection of them. We need a standard, and WMVHD+DVDROM isn't it.

[Acert93]

It looks like true digital out is IMPOSSIBLE on the XB360 because the GPU is incapable of it.

I know we have been through this before. No point getting upset at this same issue again :D

As for the above snip, technically the GPU cannot output anything to a screen. The scaler chip does this and it is separate from the GPU and can be changed at a later time (this is from the interview with the ATI guy).

There's also no 1394 connector either. Some media center this thing is, since 99% of digicamcorders won't plug into it.

Good thing they are not promoting it as a media center then, huh ;)

If you want those features get a PS3 or WMC PC because MS surely is not targeting this as a media center... only an extender.

[Mefisutoferesu]

True... the WMVHD+DVD setup simply isn't practical. I remember watching T2 and having to sit there as the movie unzipped itself or whatever it was, then having to unblock Windows Media Player on my firewall (I don't trust it a single bit) so it could update the DRM. Really, just a pain. Anyway, you're right blu-ray will win, it's only a matter of time.

[Inane_Dork]

Well, no digital out sucks donkey ass. I have 2 HDTVs, one a DLP RPTV and another an LCD PJ. I own some of the expensive analog cable you can buy, and the result is that there is still "snow" and "haze" that is apparent compared to DVI/HDMI. DVI/HDMI is mega-stable. Yes, if you use analog, and never compare side by side, you will unlikely know what "haze" I am talking about, but trust me, component/VGA does exhibit an instability/noisiness that is apparent when you compare them. It is very subtle.

How the FSCK can Microsoft design a next-generation "era of HD" console, and not have digital out?If it is "very subtle," maybe you just answered your own question. I'm certainly not knowledgeable on the topic, but I did find this. Maybe MS research found similar results:
http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/34579/122868.html

Actually, I might go so far as to say that people having errant brightness/contrast/etc. settings and various other poor settings on their TVs are a much bigger concern than component vs. HDMI.

[DemoCoder]

My uncle has a nice samsung (i believe it can be sony) lcd 40 inch screen that he got from best buy last year that does 720p nativly and doesn't have dvi or hdmi .

Model # please. The vast majority of LCD/DLP/PDP sets sold since 2002 have DVI. HDTV sales have been doubling everywhere. There are an estimated 16 million DTVs now, and 10 million will be sold this year alone. That means by end of 2005 alone, 10 million HDTVs with DVI/HDMI will be sold, as well as the 5 million from last year, easily shows that over 50% of the HDTV market, will by November, have DVI/HDMI.


My sisters sony crt does 1080i and has vga and component no hdmi or dvi .


So what. My DLP will take a 1080i signal as well, even though it is 1280x720. Even the best Sony CRT "HD"Tvs can't display more than about 1400 pixels horizontally due to inherent limitations in the number of phosphor triads, period. Thus, 1080i as displayed on a Sony CRT is more like 1400x700i *if that*. And most HD CRTs fall far short of that (800-1000 pixels horizontally)



So your pretty much wrong .

Or, you pretty much didn't understand my point, and as usual, you don't know what the hell you are talking about.

[jvd]

I'm not going to bother responding with your I'm the greatest ever attitude you seem to have even when others are telling you that your wrong . Paying for fancy equipment doesn't automaticly make you an expert on the subject .

Welcome to the block list

[DemoCoder]

You're the one who got snippety "you're pretty much wrong", when in fact, YOU are the one who is wrong. CRT sets are limited in the resolution they can resolve. They can scan many horizontal frequencies, just like digital displays can rescale the image, but they still have limits. Analog != infinite resolution. Sony publishes data showing that their max claimed horizontal resolution on their best CRT sets is 1400. AVSFORUM.COM keeps track of HD CRT resolvable resolution. Since 1080i has 1920 pixels horizontally, ergo, your family's Sony CRT can't display 1080i. It can *ACCEPT* a 1080i signal, but accepting a signal means squat. EDTV PDP's that are 854x480 accept 720p and 1080i component and DVI signals and "display them".

Why do you feel compelled to butt into everythread and make comments on areas that you don't know about telling other people that they are wrong, when 5 minutes of googling would have told you your statement was wrong.

[DemoCoder]

If it is "very subtle," maybe you just answered your own question. I'm certainly not knowledgeable on the topic, but I did find this. Maybe MS research found similar results:
http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/34579/122868.html


Well, the noise is like aliasing. Once you notice it, you will forever be annoyed by it. Just like once you know what a good contrast ratio and good blacks look like, you will be annoyed by washed out displays. And man oh man does SDTV look blurry compared to HDTV when you switch back and forth between HD and SD broadcasts.

DVI/HDMI are not meant for running 50 foot of cable, but if your DVD/console is 50-200 foot from your TV, you've got other problems. My projector happens to be 30 feet from my equipment. I ran a $200 HDMI cable 30 feet and got flickery pixels (dropout errors), which were even more annoying than "noise" in component. I fixed it by running HDMI over ethernet using HDMI->ethernet/ethernet->HDMI converter boxes. I can run the video 1000 feet now if I want. But most people don't have 120" screens and projectors 23 feet behind their A/V rack.


Actually, I might go so far as to say that people having errant brightness/contrast/etc. settings and various other poor settings on their TVs are a much bigger concern than component vs. HDMI.

Well, calibration is another issue. I can't stand miscalibrated displays nor noise in the image. First thing I do when getting a new display is load up AVIA/DVE and break out a lightmeter.

[rabidrabbit]

If you're buying a HDTV now, it actually is hard to find a tv or projector that doesn't have either DVI or HDMI, or both. At least where I live.
Sure, the shops are selling the old models, tagging them as HDTV compatible even though they arent even resolutionally up to HDTV, just if they have a component input.
A year or two ago it was different, and that's just why I have postponed upgrading my display.
One can only blame himself if one bought a new tv recently and didn't check if it had HDTV compatible HDMI or DVI, or wait until there was more models.
Here, it is clear to see people are upgrading their tv's big time. The sops are almost emty of traditional crt sets, and flat panel tv's have taken their place, and the new models do have DVI/HDMI.

I know in US it is different as HDTV has been there before HDMI, but as Europe is just entering the "HD Era", I think quite a large number of new TV's and projectors will have HDMI/DVI.

Edit: Demo Coder pretty much said it better.

[Sean*O]

Good to see a VGA out for the many gamers who will want to use the machine with their CPU monitors, but a bit disappointed about the lack of DVI or true digital out.

I suppose in most cases the difference in image quality will be negligible anyways, although I can still see a slight difference between a properly calibrated VGA and DVI signal on my FPD. I probably would not be able to see a difference at 1280x720 however, only higher resolutions, unless there was some sort of analog interference running.

[CNCAddict]

For those looking for a ture 1920x1080 screen at a reasonable cost, check this out. My friend just got one and he loves it.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=6998378&type=product&id=1110265591243

[hey69]

92cm 1080P LCD screen for only 1999$ ? wow i hope the prices will fall until 2007 when i plan to buy a big ass screen

[NavNucST3]

For those looking for a ture 1920x1080 screen at a reasonable cost, check this out. My friend just got one and he loves it.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=6998378&type=product&id=1110265591243

Thats the model I mentioned months ago. It is definitely a monitor, though, it can be used as a TV, but if I recall correctly there is no tuner in it, hence the LVM- model rating, instead of Westys LTV- rating.

You can look in avsforum to see reviews. Pay close attention to the hdcp issues with hdmi-->dvi for some items.

[Acert93]

For those looking for a ture 1920x1080 screen at a reasonable cost, check this out. My friend just got one and he loves it.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=6998378&type=product&id=1110265591243

No HDMI on that :( But 2x DVI-HDCP

[oli2]

I own a LCD Projector, 720p capable (1080i compatible).
I was hesitating between next Xbox and next PS as one of my two next gen console.
From the minute i knew there won't be any dvi/HDMI output on next Xbox, my choice was made. period.

I think you can say Microsoft made me upset with that ...

Component / VGA are certainly "enough" like someone said, but most often, i have found that people that keep saying there is no difference with digital outputs are those who don't have made tests (or unfornutaly have displays not capable of using it) ...

Most often, people that buy multi thousand dollars displays have passed time to :
- define the need
- Look and compare displays
- Install it !
- Tune it : quality cables, parameters on the display (or calibration)
- etc.

I think Sony give a thought to this kind of clients, Microsoft not.

[london-boy]

No HDMI on that :( But 2x DVI-HDCP

There are cables that have an HDMI port at one end and a DVI one at the other end. They're basically the same thing apart from the physical connectors. And obviously HDCP is included in there.


This whole "images look better when using HDMI" talk is very relative on the actual displays used. Eventually, HDMI will be the standard and every set will look better when plugged to HDMI.

But today it's different. Certain sets can't handle HDMI very well (for a number of reasons) so on those, it's better to use component. Certain sets are the opposite. Certain sets show no difference whatsoever.
It all really depends on what HDTV set you own.

[Guden Oden]

Or, you pretty much didn't understand my point, and as usual, you don't know what the hell you are talking about.
Egads demo, are you having a rotten day today? Because you're usually far from this snippy, cool it. It's me that's supposed to make people get all bent out of shape, you're a voice of reason around here! :)

Look here:
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a210/AlgebraicRing/talk_3_slide_5.jpg

The video scaler/RAMDAC is a separate chip, just as in original XB, so if they really want to, they could make a digital version in the future. Not that I expect it to happen, at least not any time soon.

And while x360 doesn't have firewire, that's correct. On the other hand, PS3 doesn't have firewire either, so I don't know if that's worth making too big a deal out of... FW's getting increasingly marginalized by USB2 anyway, most video camcorders seem to have both interfaces these days, and I think some actually have USB2 only. Soon I would think firewire will start to disappear even from cameras, seeing as FW isn't a standard port on PCs, and USB2 is. Less hassle for the end-user. But this is neither here nor there really with regards to the topic.

It's a bit of a shame x360 lacks digital video out, but hey... Component's more than good enough to play games with, I game using s-video on my PS2 with no real problems despite some color bleed here and there. Component is nearly as good as VGA, and VGA is great quality. Can't see any problems at all with the image on my LCD TV when I use the VGA-in from my PC, it looks just as stable and sharp as DVI, using a 3-meter fairly thick double-shielded Hama VGA cable from Germany. :) Not worth getting anal over this issue, it's not as if I'm going to sit there and read tiny fonts off a web page all day long on my x360 anyway.

[oli2]

The video scaler/RAMDAC is a separate chip, just as in original XB, so if they really want to, they could make a digital version in the future.
If some speculations that have been made are correct, it will be quite interesting to buy a Xbox 360 in a moment :
- With / Without Digital output
- With / Without HD-DVD drive
- With / Without HDD inside
- Why not : with an improved Xenos or with more Ram ! (just kidding)

Are we speaking about a console here ?

About the component / HDMI debate, are we on a techie forum here ? You can't justify the lack of digital port by saying component / VGA will be enough for most of the people (even if it is basically correct).

Most of the posters here agree that the machine will make the hardcore gamers happy with the huge 3D power it have. You cannot put a frontier just before the scaler / DAC / TSMC and say it is not relevant !

[Guden Oden]

About the component / HDMI debate, are we on a techie forum here ? You can't justify the lack of digital port by saying component / VGA will be enough for most of the people (even if it is basically correct).
If you say it is basically correct, why couldn't we justify it that way? :D Regardless, the matter is in microsoft's hands and not ours. I'd preferred both HDMI (as the DVI connector is big and clunky) and component outs on x360, but I'm not dissatisfied with component, as my new TV has component in for MS, and DVI in for Sony... I also don't think there will be very many TVs with DVI/HDMI only inputs and no component.

[Johnny Awesome]

Democoder, your pm box is full so I'll ask my question here:

I have a Toshiba 34HF81 CRT HDTV that is about 4 years old. Can you tell me the best way to calibrate it for the nicest image? Should I use Avia? Where can I get it? Do I need anything else?

[DemoCoder]

Get the AVIA Guide to Home Theater or Digital Video Essentials from Amazon. AVIA (and I think DVE) comes with red, green, and blue filters used to calibrate. If you pirate the DVD, you can do some of the calibrations (black level/white level/sharpness/etc) but you cannot do the saturation, tint, and color decoder calibrations without the filters, unless your TV has a special mode to turn off red/green/blue pixels, which most displays don't have.

Not only are these DVDs important for calibrating video, but your sound system as well (if you have one). A cheap radio shack SPL meter goes along way (unless you have an auto-calibrating THX Ultra2 receiver, but I find the autocalibrations often *wrong* and much tweak manually)

[Calavaro]

Not sure if it has been posted here yet in these forums.
XBOX 360 internals (http://www.xbox-scene.com/xbox1data/sep/EEkVEuupVAhBWJPUsL.php)

[Dave Baumann]

Yes, that would be the third time.